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Nugget O’ Insight

Reading all the Stupid Shit Cheaters Say submissions (and huge apologies, I’m so back logged on my cartooning, but I’m getting to it, promise) — I’m really struck again and again with how delusional cheaters are. How artfully they blame shift, what nutty shit they think justifies their betrayals (you’re a liberal, I thought you’d be okay with it…) And what petulant babies they are when they don’t get their way — how DARE you divorce me!

It’s disordered thinking, pure and simple.

If you’re dealing with a disordered wing nut (and if you read here, you probably are), check out Out of The Fog — a great resource and forum on personality disorders. I once read there a nugget o’ insight that helped me make sense of the wing nuts in my life, and thought I’d share it.

Healthy people have emotions that match their circumstances. My dog died, and so I feel sad. My boss yelled at me, ergo I feel upset. I did really great on my test, I feel proud of myself.

Disordered people have emotions — and then they try and CREATE A REALITY to match their emotional state. What’s TRUE to them are their emotions, NOT objective reality.

For example, a disordered person feels angry. Not for any particular reason, or maybe there is a disassociated reason, but they will then trump up a reality to match their emotional state and create a reason to be angry with YOU. You snubbed them (you didn’t), you stole their retirement account (WTF?!), you cheated on them (did NOT happen) — so their anger with you is justified. What’s real to them is they are angry — now they must create a reality to match their emotions. Heads must roll. It’s not them. It’s you.

And it’s not just negative emotions. You see this with narcissists all the time. They think they’re the shit, but without any requisite accomplishment. They FEEL superior, so it must be so. So they’ll exaggerate or invent reasons why they are Better Than You. (Often these involve their SAT scores from 25 years ago.) And they don’t just feel superior, they feel attractive and sexy, despite all evidence to the contrary. Perception must be reality, because how on earth does Newt Gingrich ever get laid? Just goes to show that delusional bravado goes a long way.

Anywho, it’s a good thing to be aware of. Next time you’re having a WTF moment with your wing nut, just think to yourself — ahhh… they’re having an emotional hallucination. They’re imagining a reality to go along with their feelings. If it FEELS real to them, it must be real.

The rest of us live outside the Matrix, thank God. Surround yourself with grounded people, chumps, and avoid the tinfoil hat crazies!

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  • So very true.
    My ex had a thing about not wanting to talk about anything if I brought it up. And if he had something he wanted to talk about, then I couldn’t disagree or form an opinion of any kind, else he would walk away, not quite with his fingers in his ears and saying “la la la” but damn close.
    What is so very bizarre to me is that so many narcissists feel ENTITLED to so much. They’re entitled to disregard anyone else’s feelings because they are so much more complex and deep. They feel entitled to more frequent and kinkier sex, because their sex drive is so much more profound than anyone else’s. You couldn’t possibly understand because you are a lesser being. Ugh!

    • Yes, my STBX too. Throughout our marriage, whenever I would need to discuss something that bothered me, even though I broached it walking on eggshells, he would immediately become DEEPLY offended and take it as some offront to his manhood so he would lash out and get VERY ANGRY. He would immediately turn the conversation back onto me, bringing up whatever made-up issue he could dredge up from years ago to deflect any criticism from himself, and I always ended up feeling worse about things than better. After a few years, I just stopped bringing things up altogether. And, of course, here at the end, he accuses me of “never supporting him”, when in reality, I could never even speak of his flaws or issues at all!

      • Interesting. My STBX always complains that, whenever I bring something up, he either doesn’t have time to talk about it or it’s too stressful. However, when he’s on a tear about something that’s wound him up, he expects me to listen and nod. Sometimes, when I voice an opinion that differs from his perspective–even if I’m still agreeing with him–he’ll get really angry about how I’m trying to fight with him. I tell him I agree with him, but am just giving a slightly different perspective. I’d always chalked this up to the kind of conversations his parents had–and they argued a lot, lived in different cities, and his father was living with his mistress. I just thought that he’d never had any modeling of how to have a healthy disagreement, and that he’d learn over time.

        Boy, was I wrong.

        • KB:

          My ex did the same as yours. If I brought up an issue that needed to be discussed, it was always the wrong time. If I persisted, he would leave the house. Hence nothing ever got discussed and resolved.

          From chump lady’s article: [“you stole their retirement account (WTF?!), you cheated on them (did NOT happen) — so their anger with you is justified. What’s real to them is they are angry — now they must create a reality to match their emotions. Heads must roll. It’s not them. It’s you]

          My ex accused me of stealing $100, 000 dollars he claimed was missing from our bank account. I didn’t and told him to hire a forensic accountant to prove it.

          The money went to pay bills. I was the one who paid all the bills and that is one reason why I was refusing to go on vacations or out to eat at fancy restaurants

          He used that against me in counseling saying I was cheap and a stick in the mud because I never wanted to go out or do anything.

          I think the stealing accusation was a projection because when I hired a forensic accountant, I learned that he was hiding and or spending a lot of money on things I was unaware of. Not just the OW but other things for himself.

          From chump lady’s article: [“They FEEL superior, so it must be so. So they’ll exaggerate or invent reasons why they are Better Than You.”]

          This was the other women, she was plump with a lot of cellulite, had damaged frizzy blonde hair, was quite dim, never had a career, and couldn’t even cook, yet she thought she was superior to all the wives of all the men she had affairs with.

          Even though none of her affair partners wanted a real relationship with her once outed, she still thought that.

          Geez, I wish I could mass manufacture that mirror the OW is looking in, ’cause I know I could sell a gazzillion of them.

      • Yup, same here. If I brought up any problems or issues he would get incredibly defensive, often coming back and saying later ‘so and so thinks you’re over-reacting/wrong/whatever’, like that should matter.

        I could not have any criticisms or problems or worries of my own. I naturally didn’t realise any of this at the time, it just was the way things were. Usually he would shut down discussions and then email me about them from work. He is beyond conflict avoidant, even now. He won’t talk to me directly about anything with the kids or anything else and if something comes up he will get angry if I force a discussion. It’s irritating as fuck but now I’m at the point where I just do what I want and then toss off an email informing him.

  • Absolutely describes my Cluster B disordered STBXWW to a “T”… I have even called her a “petulant baby”, and “emotionally shallow” numerous times when I did engage, and would say: “just keep shouting louder, I’m sure that will make it more true.” These angry, entitled folks without doubt, live in a parallel, gas lit universe and visit us via wormhole to torment us.

  • In Soviet Russia reality is what the government says it is. In a relationship with a cheater you find they are as much of a dictator as Stalin ever was. Escape to freedom.

    • I lived in apartheid South Africa for a year on a fellowship (1988-89) and you can’t believe how much that experienced helped me make sense of infidelity. I have a post about it somewhere… how my useless masters in southern African history explains infidelity.

      When you’re surrounded by crazy, you start to feel like YOU are the crazy one. But aside from the oppressive, police state thing — the bravery and the humor inspired me then and now.

  • Yes Yes to it all CL.

    I know a lot of people are saying today that “narcissist” and “sociopath” is getting overused. But when you’ve experienced a seriously disordered person, and you didn’t know about personality disorders, you find yourself seeking answers for their bizarre behaviors and thinking. This is usually what you are lead to. Cluster B’s

    Now the label or diagnosis doesn’t really matter to me anymore. A cluster B is a cluster B is a bastard is a cluster fuck! I just call IT a douche now.

    Now that I’ve learned what I was dealing with so much of what IT said and did makes more sense to me. IT really does believe IT’S super special. Those who can’t understand IT and what IT’S about are inferior. They can’t comprehend this kind of “special” or “personal power”

    The douche is a school principal. Terrific front for IT because on the surface he is Mr. Fucking Rogers for those who don’t know ITS dark side. I have heard IT has had at least one affair with a teacher at school. At this point it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if IT has also hooked up with a mom or two.

    When we were communicating, IT had gotten a new job at a more prestigious school district. IT had a party for ITSELF. Teachers from ITS old district attended. After the party IT was upset and told me rumors were spreading about some things that went on at the party – like 3ways and hookups. IT is a married 40 something with a child and a principal. I’ve never heard of such a thing! (As I type this I want to vomit really) I asked IT “why anyone would want to spread a rumor like that?” ITS reply,

    “It’s just unattractive teachers who are jealous of the popular good looking teachers”

    Me: “What the fuck?!”

    On the school’s website he posted a picture of Mount Rushmore and get this, IT photo shopped ITS head in alongside the other presidents!! LMAO.

    IT obtained ITS Ed.D. Well goody gumdrops for IT. So what? Not to put the degree down, seriously, but you just know IT insists on going by Doctor. Don’t you dare say “Mr. Douche, when IT’s now “Dr. Douche”

    Yes, they really do believe they are the end all be all of human existence. Really there’s nothing human about them.

    • Even when real doctors (you should use that term around IT a lot–“real doctors” as this will make IT CRAZY!) insist on being called “doctor” in social settings, they are immediately identifiable as douche bags. Even professionally, most real doctors insist on being called by their first names! So for IT to insist on being called “doctor” is a pretty good indicator of how seriously insecure IT is.

      • Well he masks that insecurity pretty damn well I can tell ya that! He’s also in a punk rock band! Don’t even get me started on that one. He’s out playing gigs at dive bars where 20 somethings hang out pretty much every other weekend. They have a FB page loaded with pics of him playing his beloved guitar and being a rock god. I had NO IDEA about any of this. He’s a true jeckyl and hyde. It’s freaky.

        Truth – I held the belief that his poor wife has to know. How on earth can she not know? Well, now I’ve learned, many do not have any idea.

        They are really THAT good at manipulating. It makes me sick to think of how many people these types hurt. It’s unreal. It’s unjust. I hate it.

        Just like Lance Armstrong. He’s EXACTLY like LA.

      • “So sorry LassOfTruth.” – I appreciate that Rose. But it really isn’t about feeling sorry for me. I’m the lucky one. I’m not married to the douche. Feel sorry for his wife. Feel sorry my H that I did such an incredibly stupid thing and had an EA.

        I know some still see me as no different from the other cheater cheater pumpkin eaters. But I know I am, and my H knows who I am. That’s all that matters.

        I’m very happy that I’m not a person who can spin a web of lies on a daily basis. A person who can easily dupe my H, family and friends into believing I’m someone I’m not. I’m very happy I had it in me to tell my H what was happening before it was too late. I’m very happy I never slept with Dr. Douche. I’m very happy that I have a conscience.

        I didn’t know it at the time, but now I know Dr. Douche is a serial cheater. I was a failed attempt. I was one that backfired on him/IT. When I told him that I told my H everything, I know it knocked the wind out of him a little. He did not see that coming.

        The reason I’m on here is to share my experience with this very disordered creep and hopefully in some way help others by doing so.

        I really don’t give flying fuck about this guy, I DO care that he and others like him get away with what they do.

        • Oh geez. Well LOT at the very very least you are owning up to taking responsibility for the EA and told your H about it.. That is more respectable than him finding out.
          Are you in IC to help provide insight as to why you went for such a creep, why you chose the EA, and perhaps to develop boundaries? Are you and H in MC? What was H’s response to the news of EA? How is he handling it now? Have you learned from the mistake of participating in an emotional affair? Would you do so again?
          I think you have a moral obligation to tell the wife. Not to get revenge on IT, but because it is the wife’s right to know. She deserves that. Even doing so anonymously. I feel so sorry for his wife.

          • Oh wow this is going to be tough to respond to. So if it sounds like a lot of rambling my apologies.

            If IC means counseling. I got my butt into see a therapist immediately after telling H what was going on. H was stunned when I told him, and rightly so. He actually said, “Thank you for telling me and if you decide to see him again tell me.” I think he was in such shock at first it hadn’t really sunk in. We didn’t say much the rest of that day, but later he told me he wanted me to cut all contact with him. At that point I truly didn’t want to. I was addicted to the feelings I had been having. It was like a drug. I wasn’t sleeping at all, but had a ton of energy all day. I lost 20 lbs in one month.

            It was like I felt invisible, and this guy shined a bright spotlight onto me and made me feel special. I had very low self esteem for a lot of reasons. I come from a VERY dysfunctional family. A lot of infidelities. My paternal GF, my own F and my oldest B all cheated. A lot of narcissism in my family. No idea what healthy boundaries were. I was a perfect target or should I say potential AP. I’m not listing these things as excuses. I am responsible for my behavior. I chose to emotionally hook into this person. I understand now why I chose to and I’d be writing all day about all the things I’ve learned about myself.

            H has been very understanding. He knows I had the respect for him to not follow through to a full blown PA.

            H and I did do counseling, and *sigh* been separated for 5 years. We recently discussed reconciliation. I asked him to consider moving back. I told him he could have 100% access to my phone, my computer, all passwords etc. for as long as he needed. We are always together, even though we no longer live together. We do everything as a family still with our D. Vacations, everything. We enjoy our time together as a family. I know he wants to save the marriage, but he’s afraid to let go and afraid to hang on. I get that. I am too. It’s really complicated. Plus our D is special needs (nothing severe but still a lot of work) We both care about her above all else and doing what’s best for her.

            It took my therapist to guide me into ending it EA and breaking all contact. The therapist literally told me what to say to the douche in every email and bring back to him the responses. He had me challenge him and that’s when it started to sink in that he was a player and I had been duped. I was very gullible.

            Would I do it again? I doubt it. When the EA started I believed I could have an affair. Others do it, so can I. It’s no big deal. I definitely had feelings of entitlement and found ways to rationalize it to myself. Plus he was familiar and we had a history. I don’t think it would have been as easy for a total stranger to catch my attention.

            But I was a complete and total failure as a cheater. I am a horrible liar for one thing. Every day I looked at my daughter, I looked at my H and I would think, “What in the Hell am I doing?” There is no possible good that can come from any of this. This is going to cause nothing but pain no matter how it plays out. So much of it is really hard to put into words for me.

            As far as telling his wife, I struggle with that one often. More so after reading stories on here. I was told by others that if I did, chances are very high that she won’t believe me, I’m pretty confident that I’m painted as the “Psycho ex GF from HS” this guy is very good at spinning. He gets off on it.

            My other fear of telling the wife, even anonymously, is that I have this concern of “What if she snapped, did something crazy like suicide or something?” I mean I realize that’s a drastic worst case scenario thought, but that’s what runs through my head since I don’t know anything about her or her mental state.

            I just don’t know. I mean I know a person is sitting on a ticking time bomb and they have no idea that any day, their world could completely blow up. Is it fair that I don’t try to give them a heads up?

            Telling or not telling, neither one feels right to me.

    • Lasso of truth:

      I laugh at PHds that insist on being called doctor.

      IMO, the only person the gets called doctor is a medical doctor who treats patients, and even then, I call my doctor by his/her first name.

      Lots of people have higher education or specialized education, yet the rest of the world is not obligated to honor their education each time they interact with them.

      • I know Sara. I have friends who are Phd’s and they never go by doctor.

        He’s such a tool.

      • I don’t mind the whole Dr. thing if the person is in a position of authority already, like a professor at college.

        • I guess I don’t mind it either. He can go by Dr. Douche. He’s earned it.

        • Lasso:

          He’s a fool and a tool.

          Green girl

          If a PHD is called doctor in university setting, that’s okay. It does reinforce their position of authority and the use of it in the college setting is appropriate and professional.

          I am talking about social settings.

          I have a neighbor whose husband has a PHD and there return address is Dr. and Mrs. “so and so”. The husband introduces him self as Doctor so and so at parties.

          My real doctor friend on the other hand, just has a return address of Mr and Mrs so ad so, and he is a cardio thoracic surgeon. He introduces himself as Edward at social gatherings, not Dr. Ed.

  • I think they eventually get tripped up by their shit. All their lies and disordered behaviour catch up with them eventually.

    I like to think about exactly what will happen to my narcissist after I leave. All the normal crap that everyone has — a house, a marriage, money, intimacy — will be gone because I am no longer cleaning up his messes.

    He makes six figures but won’t pay his phone or mortgage without me. He is 41 but still has student loan creditors after him.

    Although he comes across as this slick and plugged in man about town, I can’t imagine another woman — one who is not depressed or so attached — putting up with his shit for long. He is the most selfish, entitled lover I’ve ever had. I remember our first few times together just being amazed how terrible things were. And every time after I had a weird feeling, one I even occasionally expressed, that I should be paid for my “services.” I’d try to educate, to explain and sometimes he seemed like he was getting it. But once it no longer served his purposes, he’d stop trying. Truth is, he just didn’t care. But I’d just write it off as lack of experience. Boy was I dumb, as his extensive sexual past included all manner of depraved sex. And yes, most of it was paid for since a person like that has no interest in actual intimacy, just selfish pleasure.

    I can’t wait for the day when I am ready to move on and nuclear bomb his fake life. He has everyone so convinced that he’s such a wonderful guy. That’s the bad thing about narcissists. And he really seems so successful and personable when you first meet him. He has no close friends, only superficial acquaintances. I now understand why.

    He’d gaslight me, get me wrapped up in all sorts of crazy shit, like screaming fights at 2 a.m the night before I’d start a new job.

    Once we had a major blowout a couple days before a crucial point in an IVF cycle, right when I was pumped full of hormones and extra sensitive and emotional. It was insane and inconsiderate and he’d push and push — screaming and steamrolling over me — until I was on the verge of walking out. Then he’d apologize the second I was ready to write him off. That’s his pattern. No one would ever believe that this handsome, funny, personable guy was that screaming monster.

    One day I will blow the lid off his pretending. And he will have nothing left. And that will brighten my day.

    I. Am. So. Angry.

    • So for the love of God, don’t go back to him. Listen to your anger! He’s TOXIC.

      Make a plan to divorce, get your stuff, and get away from him permanently. Period.

      It’s great that you’re seeing him for who he IS. Now let that pissedoffedness drive you to a new start without him!

      • I see things clearly, yes. But it’s taking time to really feel it in my bones. I need to feel done. I know it’s incredibly stupid. And I know he’s toxic. But I’m just not ready. I do think I’ve come a long way from when I first left in November.

        • Sad -I’m very sorry for what you’ve bee going through. I know it’s difficult.

          Just FYI, the reason I refer to douche as IT is because I now know full well that’s how he sees everyone including his wife, his friends, his co-workers etc.

          Everyone to all of them is an IT. You’re an object the him. You’re an insurance policy, a blankie, a toaster, a blender, a teddy bear, a doll, take your pick. They pick you up and use you at their whim and when they need you. They love shiny new toys for sure! Then when you don’t work (you’re onto their shit) you don’t mirror them anymore, or you just don’t suit them what-the-fuck ever, they devalue you and discard you. You’ve already been devalued and once you are that never reverses. EVER.

          I really hope you will find your courage and kick him to the curb HARD so he doesn’t bounce back.

    • Funny how so many are the proverbial ‘nice guy’ (or woman) with the veneer of success and superficial charm. I realised now that all our friends were my friends, not his. He has two ‘friends’ who are men he’s known since he was in his late teens and they’re basically people he sees for a drink or whatever once a month or so. They’re not intimates, by any stretch. No one is an intimate, actually, not even his family, whom he is ‘close’ to, meaning they see each other often. But they don’t want to know who he really is, they want him to keep going with the act of perfection and that’s it. Any real problems are solved by avoiding, ignoring or simply removing a person from their lives. Such as me, who became a real problem by exposing that he’s a serial cheater.

      • That veneer is the hardest part for me. He has piles of “friends” who don’t really know him. He’s always the star of the show. On the outside he seems so wonderful. Everyone love him. He’s magnetic. But his insides are rotten. He hides it well.

        It will be so hard watching him replace me. And he’ll have no trouble … at first. Some young, pretty respectable thing would love to be with someone as successful and handsome as he is. He is so charming and personable. But slowly the cracks will show, though, but it may take months or years. Then he’ll just replace her and then replace the one after that again.

        He’ll be smarter this time around, hide his cheating and his issues. Maybe she’ll be too busy to notice. Maybe she’ll be a narcissist too, as his industry attracts those types. They can travel the world and go to fabulous parties together as the beautiful power couple that they are.

        I’ve paved the road and she’ll drive the car. Of course, she’ll eventually break down by the side of the highway but it will be painful for me to know she got the best of him for at least a while.

        And here I am, someone who loved him before his success, pining for and agonizing over him. How fucking pathetic.

        • And I’ll just look like the crazy one who let my prize catch get away, the one who is unemployed, depressed and living with my parents.

          This is where my head is at after 10 hours of no contact. I’m already losing perspective.

          • SIS, I am so, so sorry about your situation. Please do not define yourself as to where you are right now. You are in shock, grieving mode. After 6 months, a year, two years, ten years, you will be so much further ahead emotionally, mentally, physically, and even professionally than this loser. Stay strong. I understand the need for revenge I had the feelings myself. Talk out your feelings w friends, family, therapist. Get out. Punch something (not someone!), you must let this toxicity out. Eventually you will exhaust your anger. I have not totally yet… Not at Meh! yet… First DDay in April 2012, Second and third in June 2012, I left. I am divorcing now. had ro leave my home. Living with family myself.. I applaud you for standing up for yourself and leaving on the FIRST DDay!!!! Now get that lawyer. Gather financials and start getting ducks in a row..

        • Yes, I am the one who was with him through every struggle to success and lived through all the building career years, the kids, the not having enough money to eat at times, etc. Now he’s successful and in his jacked up mind I have no right to any of ‘his’ money, despite our agreement when I became a SAHM that he would take care of me financially, no matter what. We actually talked about what would happen should we break up when we were making this decision. Not that it was on the cards but I wanted to make sure I was going to be ok. I should have had him sign a piece of paper but I honestly thought we would be together forever. I had no idea he’d been cheating for years and he never gave any indication anything was wrong or he was unhappy.

          It’s fucked up and although I know his life isn’t all sunshine and roses and that he’ll eventually cheat on current OW and screw that up it does piss me off that this twenty something is benefitting from all the years of sacrifice and hard work I put, in addition to having time with my kids that should be mine.

          I’m feeling very pissy about all of this today.

          • Such familiar territory! There’s not even any acknowledgement that their game plan changed. I remember seeing an email when he was complained to his PA about money and she seemed to be surprised that I had access to our joint account. I saw the very details that I had given to him earlier in the week itemised to her! This was to a woman who my X told me had bankrupted her family and whose husband didn’t yet know! I also remember dealing with finances, wearing jumble sale clothes to prioritise others (him and offspring) and paying off a major financial debt he incurred before we married but I did not know until six years later! NOT. ONE. IOTA. OF. GRATITUDE.

            Insight: he was always angry and it was my fault.

            • Yes, they get the success and the person who saw them through all the rough times getting there is no longer sparkly enough: we got older alongside them, had kids, our bodies aren’t so perfect anymore…and that’s more important than anything else–we don’t fit the new them they want to be. STBX is now a gym bunny times ten: actually got furious with the kids one night because they were coming over, he’d forgotten and it interfered with his gym plans. Naturally, young OW is ‘super sporty’ and spends all her free time working out.

              Whatever. I’ll come out of this fine, somehow. And he’ll always be him: a serial cheater who ditched him family for young pussy.

          • Nord you’re not alone. Just woke up and feel the same. Hate these days where seem to dwell. They are not worth it.
            We ( including our cheating scumbags) all worked towards building a wonderful family and life to only have it destroyed. People say Baci it’s not destroyed it will just be different. It will be better. Bullshit!
            You have a OW ( in her twenties I think) and I have chainsaw man who simply stroll into our lives and say ” thanks very much, thanks for all the hard work but I’m here to enjoy the easier years. Thanks so much for bringing up so well developed children, happy, content, socially adjusted with lots of friends.
            ( in my case chainsaw man has left his two daughters in New Zealand for mum to look after. I have neglected my own kids there but ill look after yours now- always wanted sons! )
            So far that’s what they have achieved but reality is an entirely different matter.
            Nord you and I have fear now. We fear whether this new life will succeed? How will we live day to day and interact with this new dynamic? Will our life be better? When I say our I mean the kids as well because our respective partners have checked out. They may as well be on Mars.
            In my case they are finding very challenging they think time will heal.
            In my case after I found out about the affair my ex learnt the following about chainsaw man
            1/ he has no money however on a good income
            2/ he got busted having two affairs concurrently by his wife. My ex was either the third or very soon after
            3/ he has no social structure here. Only work. Mind you means she can have him all to herself

            Regardless of whether our two respective partners and the excuses for human beings they live with actually make it both you and I have lost all that stuff from twenty years and we will just call it family.
            It’s now up to us how we build a new life with our children.
            Whatever way you look at it just when you think you’ve made it something comes out of left field( cheaters) and fucks it all up.
            Raining here for second day which doesn’t help

            • STBX’s OW is aware that STBX is a serial cheater–she also knows that he was banging other women their affair was already going. She seems to have bought whatever excuse he gave her–probably told her I was lying.

              I know they took a lot from us but we can’t let them get anymore, most importantly our peace of mind. He’ll always be a serial cheating scumbag who lived a double life for years behind my back. I’ll always be teh stupid wife who didn’t see it while giving up everything to support him.

              As tough as my situation is I’d still rather be me and certainly would never want to be him.

              • No Nord, you were not a “stupid wife”, you were a trusting, loving, respectful wife. A person with morals and character. A person that could not even fathom yourself hurting your spouse and family so badly. Your exhusband is the stupid one. Selfish, sicko. I will say you are strong, courageous, a person that stands by her word, loyal, a person of integrity, amongst many other admirable character traits. It takes a person a lot of strength and character to leave a cheater. Be proud of yourself. The OW is a naive, weak, sad, pathetic person. She chooses to stay with the creep knowing he is a cheater. How will he treat her? No differently. Her self-respect and value is next to nothing if not nothing already. Her identity is wrapped up in how he sees her.. She will be shattered when she finds out he is cheating on her.. He will too if he isn’t already.

              • Well, Rose, I know he’s back in touch with an old fling but is excusing it away. She is pathetic but she’s basking in his love bombing and in the love bombing of his family. What she doesn’t realise is that already all her time is spent with him at his place, with his family, with his world (as small as that is) and he does little to see hers. He will most definitely be faithful for a bit, then when he has her completely under his sway start to tear her down, piece by piece….just as he did with me. And it’s so insidious that you don’t even notice it: the old frog in cold water which is slowly heated up and the damned thing is boiling to death before he knows what hit him.

                It really is how it was with him…little things that I let slide that I now see I should NEVER have let slide but who wants to live their life in a constant argument, particularly when you love that person?

                Hell, he’s even got her going along with the ‘soulmates never argue and my parents never argued’ shit, which is essentially saying she’d better not call him on any of his shit. I feel sorry for her much of the time, because she’s going to get crushed in a few years. My therapist predicts it as he’s middle aged and has cheated his whole ife and will most definitely again.

                But in the meantime my life is in shreds, the kids have been traumitised, God forbid he knocks the dumb bitch up….and I lost a number of people that I really cared about and had to face up to the fact that they were assholes as well (friend who fucked him, his family, etc.)

                I’m actually ok….just feeling bitchy and pissy this past week.

            • Current OW is playing at being a mum to my kids. She has no idea of being a parent, particularly teenagers, mainly because she’s in her twenties and is younger than nannies we’ve had over the years.

              But she plays the role, STBX apparently smiles fondly and pats her on the head saying ‘good girl!’ and the kids want to puke.

              It’s all kinds of fucked up but out of my hands so I don’t bother with it at all. But it sucks that this ho-bag gets time with my kids when she caused them so much pain.

  • Chump Lady and fellow chumpers: Please check out this article from a person called tallgirl on the doccool website:
    I cannot believe someone is so disordered and can justify some pretty disgusting behavior. Please weigh in and give your thoughts and opinions. I am truly saddened that there are people like this out there in relationships/marriages and raising families.

      • I went to that site the other day. I never read such idiotic things in my life. It is unbelievable!

        I also noticed, that most of the users avatars are VERY sexual. Anyone else notice this?

        I laughed. I bet not a one of them is even close to their AVATAR. They wish!

    • Wow… all OW should read what the last poster (an OM) had to say about not only his M (I’ll D once I get caught) but also the OW. Doesn’t seem quite as star-crossed and romantic a perspective as most (oh hell, probably all) OW likely have.

      • He called them “meat puppets”. That is so unbelievably twisted its scary. That’s the type of guy that could convince himself to kill a woman and stuff her in a suitcase because she had become “inconvenient”.

        The scariest thing is he probably comes off as all nice and normal and first glance. No obvious clues that he’s a freak.

        I really believe serial/repeat cheating is just an outward symptom of more serious fucked up thinking.

    • Ugh. I read most of it — whoever cheatersarecowards is, he/she’s tilting at windmills. Noble to take on the crazies on their home turf, but nutzo.

      It’s all the same excuses, dressed up. Woe! Cheaters can’t leave. It’s Very Complicated. The betrayed spouse is a Bad Person Who Drove Them To It (fine, if they’re a bad person LEAVE them — you didn’t leave? It’s not that bad. You’re in it for cake.)

      I don’t know, reading that crap is liking sticking my head in a blender.

      The original point of the blog post is how transgressive it is to fuck in the marital bed. Really, we need a discussion about this? It’s FUCKING SOCIOPATHIC. It’s sick. Period. Sick. Sick. Sick.

      • Yeah it’s like screaming at a dog and telling it not to bark. They are what they are.

      • Thanks for your input! Good Lord Chump Lady, BS’s have to go through hell and have to claw our way out of the abyss to see the light of day again after being fucked over so badly by cheats. Then to think others blame BS’s for the cheating Heck! What about in your home and marital bed? This situation is beyond what I can even imagine.

    • My ex took the marital bed and hope the two of them enjoy using it. Sick as.
      There are some sick people out there who get their jollies in the matrimonial home. They are so fucked up

        • New bedding can help! I went to the sales section of and picked up some quirky pieces. I’m not usually that elegant! I chatted to the server who told me that divorced men tended to buy new bedding for a new relationship and that divorced women when the man had moved out! Don’t know whether it’s scientifically provable.

  • How about this charming article that I read in Elle magazine today? My goodness, she’s just full of excuses and justifications for her disgusting infatuation with a man that she seems to feel, at best, ambivalent about:

    I just love the midlife crisis excuse. My hormones are going wonky! I have wrinkles! This means that I must find sexual affirmation with a man who is not my husband! It’s amazing to me that people can feel that way, but I guess it’s because I’m not NPD.

    • Yes, I read the article MovingOn. I am astounded that this woman is able to compartmentalize her family life/sleazy life with no guilt whatsoever. Only pain for herself after Limp Dick could not get it up and did not contact her for awhile.
      What a bitch.
      And wait! The story has a happy ending!! She finally appreciates her stay-home-husband (he takes care of kids while she works) after her affair.. Well la de da!! Thank God for affairs!

      • She wouldn’t be feeling so good if she had been caught. It would have destroyed her loving family. Maybe that’s what she deserves. But what about the kids.
        I just don’t get the I need some external gratification because we are having issues in the marriage. Surely one treasures their family and tries their hardest to work problems out. It’s as if people just get bored.

        It’s all about respect. I respected my wife so much I would never wanted to hurt her.

        • “t’s all about respect. I respected my wife so much I would never wanted to hurt her.”


        • You’re a sweetie, Baci. Next one is going to be a very lucky woman. Don’t lose sight of that.

          • Agreed. We are great partners, even if we’re not perfect, because we understand that relationships hit bumps and have tough times and we’re willing to work through those problems. Our cheaters go elsewhere to get their egos stroked and to feel good about themselves, rather than face anything that might need a bit of work.

          • I’m not a sweetie Chump Lady. I’m like all of us- not perfect , I’m happy , sad, boring , exciting, lazy, busy, attentive, non- attentive, good cook, bad cook, outstanding lover. Bla bla bla. I’m human( hope so) and so is the ex.
            What I’m trying to say is that I try to treat people from their point of view and how I’d expect o be treated. You don’t always execute perfectly but I try to look at life like this. We all have baggage. What this “event” has made me realise that in each others eyes my ex and We’re aren’t perfect for each.
            It never deserves cheating. It’s so darn hard for the cheater to first extract themselves from the marriage before they cross the line.
            Some do then take up with the new partner and no ones none the wiser but in our situations we go from what we think is a wonderful relationship( with hard work as most relationships are ) to a complete fucking mess.

          • Baci – that was me – from this sweet relationship was starting to need more attention, (I sat on jury for 5 weeks…. that can really mess with your life!) to a complete fucking mess – another dimension in an alternate reality. Even IT would say that it turned VERY quickly. Yes CL, the mind wobbles.

  • I think one reason for the crap cheaters spew is that the APs are just as delusional and reinforce all the crazy shit the cheaters spew They feed off each other. I actually think its funny that my spouse said some shit that I know he got verbatim from the OW. I was never insecure or jealous and never complained about meeting the boys for a drink (ha silly me). When we were in counseling he announced that if I really cared about him I would never have let him go out alone. That comment just didn’t sound like him. I can’t explain it but I knew those words and that reason came from the OW. There were more than a few statements that I just know were direct quotes from the OW and feeding the fuckupedness. Oh well, i can’t wait until she tells him he can’t grab a beer with the boys because she cares to much about him.

    • “if I really cared about him I would never have let him go out alone.” Geez. Whether it was the OW or him that came up with that one rest assured, if you had ever said even once, “I don’t want you to go out” it would have been “You smothered me and never let me have any space”

      The only way to win is not to play anymore. Drop the rope and walk away.

      • Oh I stopped playing the game and I know that was a complete ass backwards statement. I just think its funny you have two sociopaths coming up with completely ridiculous lines and patting themselves on the back over it

    • STBX gets his shit to spew from his family. At one point I heard almost the exact same phrase from him, his parents, AND his sister, all within a week. Obviously they had decided on the point of view they were going with and that was that. That was a big turning point for me because it made me realise just how enabling and dysfunctional his family truly is.

      • Just figured out that the OW has been writing some of the texts STBX has sent me…NC is the way to go, but unfortunately I still have to contact STBX concerning the kids. BOTH of them keep trying to ensnare me in an argument. Conveniently trying picking fights after OW is done with work or on the weekends. How many times and in how many different ways do I have to say “Don’t contact me unless it’s an emergency concerning the kids”?

        Strange they have so much time on their hands – why bother picking fights with me? Weren’t they going to live an exciting carefree life?

        I guess REAL life is upsetting their plans.

        • Really:

          Real life always intrudes on the cheater’s carefree fantasy world, eventually. LOL.

          Just sit back and wait.

          One or the other will eventually cheat on the affair partner, and even if they don’t their paranoia is always high.

          If it’s an old guy with money, the younger OW will be cheating behind his back while spending his money.

          Or, she will tell him his boring and his dick is too limp and she needs more sex and eventually he will be alone. I have heard of this happening too many times to count.

          Then they want the wife back, but it’s too late, she’s been awakened to his reality and doesn’t want him back. LOL.

          If it’s a woman who left for a cheating male, eventually that male will be cheating on her, too with younger and younger women.

          • Yup. I know a great story about a guy who caught his wife cheating. She left for OM. She married OM. She had a child with OM. Five years later he was caught banging HER secretary. he left her and married the young secretary and while the original husband has happily remarried the orignal wife is alone. Yes, I do love that story. 🙂

            • I love that story to, Nord, and others like it. The part I like best is that stories like that are all too common.

              Does getting a charge out of hearing those stories make me too evil? ; )

              • All I know is that as much as I don’t want him back I do not want him to end up with the current hobag. Why? Because I don’t want to see that simpering bitch at weddings and every other event for the rest of my life. BAd enough I have to see him and his idiotic parents at these things.

              • Ugh, I agree, having to see the skanka’ho, at family functions for the rest of my life would have really been a downer.

        • Really
          i had the same problem for years.i think part of the reason was i was always trying to be nice and polite .i think a solution would have been to say something like DONT FUCKING CONTACT ME IF ITS NOT AN EMERGENCY ” and then hang up the phone or whatever.
          in retrospect i wish that id had the nerve to ask ” WHY are you fucking calling me?” when i answered the phone or “WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT” or say something like “I DONT GIVE A DAMN” or “THATS NOT MY FUCKING PROBLEM” every time they called me about stupid miscellaneous bullshit..

          for a while i changed my number and made my ex pass all messages thru a third person.

          they do this shit as a form of entertainment

          • Oh they don’t do it as entertainment. Rather, I think they need to keep up the illusion that the BS is a crazy or “bad” person. If you don’t communicate, then they can’t keep ripping you and they have to deal with themselves and reality. But if they can make you communicate and even goad you into an argument, then they have fuel to keep the story up. Think about it, no way to keep up the psycho, crazy mean ex-wife if you ignore the ex and OW and go on your marry way. They are also miserable and can’t stand the fact you escaped the crazy and want to make you crazy too. As my therapist and psychic told me (yes i have a psychic-guilty pleasure) the OW wouldn’t be “jogging” aournd my house if she were happy and secure.

            • I also think it’s a form of triangulation. STBX will go a few days or even a week without contacting me, then he’ll send an email and try to pick a fight. There was a period of time when I bit. I no longer bite because I realised he was trying to keep the drama high and the triangle going because he ENJOYS this shit. It makes him happy, makes him feel important, makes him feel powerful. Why? Because he’s a sad little man attached to a penis and he’s running around trying to get ego kibbles from myriad sources.

              Essentially, he’s pathetic and pitiable.

  • Oh yes, they think that every woman who buys their story is “stupid”.Their logic boggles the mind.and they just love to lie..I will play out a scenario we behave in a situation and how the X would….

    If we are to meet for lunch and we are running late coz the meeting in the office took longer …

    ME…sorry just leaving office, got delayed /ran into a bit of traffic”
    And then just switch topics and talk about something else because even these small white lies make you uncomfortable and you don’t want to lie more.

    THE X calls just as he gets into te car and is already 30 minutes late..”Honey been stuck in traffic since half an won’t believe it but a huge truck a little ahead of me just broke down and the driver,oh my he has such huge arms with tattoos all over them, has just hopped out of the truck and is trying to figure out what’s wrong and he looks so mean..honey you know how these biker types are..hope he finds out what’s wrong and the traffic starts moving..can’t wait to be with you.can you believe it a jazzy car is just next to mine in the next lane and there is this woman in her 30’s at the wheel…how do these women dress like this..I can practically see her navel down her low necked top..her breasts are oozing trashy..and now she is smiling at me..ohh she has a ring do these married women behave like this..I bet she would hop into a bed if I asked her..jeez how cheap..I wouldn’t even give her a second glance..just look at what a trashy red color she is wearing on her nails..ohh honey the traffic is moving.ohh a teenage girl is driving a car in the next lane ..she must only be as ols as A (his teenage daughter) and the look she is giving me..jeez don’t parents inculcate any values in their children..what’s the world coming to..ohh baby can’t wait to hold you..the traffic is now moving and I should be their in 15…am so sorry to have kept you waiting..that truck driver is an idiot..honey hope you have ordered something to drink..hey and hope there’s no man looking you over coz you are alone..if there is I am going to come and bash him up.”

    This is vintage X ..when all along he would be driving furiously coz he is late.

    They just love to lie ..makes them feel smarter.

    Apart from all the serial cheating and hookers and sham divorce and everything what got me madder was how he spin these unnecessary stories , got my emotions invested and wasted so much of my time..

    Pathological liars..and the whole key to how they can carry on double and triple and multiple lives and live in so many parallel realities is they enjoy lying.

    Lying makes us uncomfortable..even when we lie..the small white lies..we tend to keep them to a bare minimum..where’s these disordered people feed on lies.they thrive ..they enjoy..lying is nourishment to them as vital and as important as the air they breathe.

    The only thing you can do is …LEAVE.

  • Statistically it’s known that women get hit on more than men, but in the 5 years that I was with my X he must have got hit on n times more hhan I was ever in my entire life ( and its not as if I am unattractive) and the X is 50 !!!!

    So as .CL says ..this is another version of trying to create a reality they feel.

    Plus, after going complete NC I realized how they keep their partners always edgy by constantly saying that every woman they meet is trying to hit on them and how they refuse all their overtures.

    They are SICK.

  • This post describes my ex perfectly. What an eye opener! One unfortunate thing that it’s help me see is that I’m still not in “Meh” land. My first instinct after reading this was to email this to my ex. “This is you! Don’t you see?! Can’t you understand what you’ve done?” I still want him to understand how he’s hurt me. I still want to help him be better. It surprised me, but I’m still addicted to the hope.

    • I get that sometimes as well. I will see something and have the urge to send it to STBX but then remind myself that he won’t get it and even if he does he’s not worth the effort. Why fix him? For whom? For me? No way–I’m never again going to let that asshat hurt me. Ever.

    • I find it helpful to remind myself of that Dr. George Simon line — “It’s not that they don’t see — it’s that they disagree.”

      They don’t need insight. They’re AWARE of what they’re doing and don’t give a shit. That’s what makes them scary.

      • I still have the fantasy that IT will understand what he did to me. I still hurt. But, 90 days NC today. Keep on truckin…..

          • Thanks Stephanie – all you guys are amazing. And I appreciate the kind words. I’m not “meh” yet – someday.

  • Hiya, Chump Lady…is there anyway to extend teh number of replies to a certain comment thingy? I ask because I can’t reply to some of them…although maybe that would make things unwieldy?

  • I am in a really bad situation-Haven’t a clue what to do. You see when i married my husband 8 years ago, (we were dating for 5 years before that long distance). he told me that his previous girlfriend had found out that he was seeing 3 other people at the same time. He said he wanted to get everything out in the open , which i appreciated. She had left him and said she could not trust him. I also recieved an anon message to say that he is meeting his ex again but he denied it. I believed him. His ex got married and moved on. We married and he has been just such a selfish person. He does not care about my family. He is uncaring unaffectionate and shows no emotion. He is unsupportive, obsessed with money.

    Also only focuses on his life<his family his friends< his business. Hes also very sociable-likes to go out often and has these unrealistic expectations of me. Anyway i found a message on his phone from some women5 years ago-he said he doesnt know her. Must be some mistake. Then i found messages in his sent messages from a co worker saying" hey babe send me a pict of roofis" and another "hey babe im still at home. Will call you when im leaving". I confrnted him_he said he was sending the messages back to his collegue to show her what she sent to him in mistake. i Believed him. Then again a year later he went to get take out-When he returned there was a message on his Phone saying "thanks sweeti but no thank you" i confronted him. I told him to call this lady on loud speaker so i could hear. She seemed totally surprised. Like it was a mistake. A few months later I found another 2 messags on his phone saying"hey babe hows the holiday?"Hows the weather there? I confronted him-He say everybody calls her babe at work because she snorts like a pig.

    Can this be true?I told him to have no contact with her. I asked to see his mobile records for the last 6months. He said he didnt edit it.

    i really dont know. He is so convincing. well as it stands now- we had a baby 1 month ago. A week before our baby was born there was messages on a chat line to this women but it seems this women does not want him. He sent a message saying "hello how are you?long time. No reply from her. Then another message from him saying" Hey am i disturbing you?Are you still not talking to me?Just one quest.Are you never gona talk to me again? then she replied "What the hell is wrong with you??Why are you messaging me??" Then he writes Missed talking to youloves his baby>the man i love



    • I’m going to tell it to you straight: he’s a serial cheater and you need to leave. Now.

      Yes, you have a newborn and it’s going to suck. He will probably try to beg and cry and ‘do anything’ to make it work, even offering up some trickle truth. But you know what? He’s a cheater and he won’t stop. He cheated on the girl before you and he has obviously cheated on you already and he WILL do it again.

      Do your child a favour and leave this man now. NOW. You will feel enormous pain, you will probably never know the full extent of his cheating but what you will get will be far better: a life without a cheater, peace of mind and the chance to build a life that may include someone who actually values you.

      How do I know this? Because my STBX is a serial cheater. I only found out after 20 years and two kids. Don’t be me, middle aged and having to start your life over. And you know what? I knew he had cheated on the girl before me but at that time I was one of those who thought that it must have been her, somethign wrong with their relationship. It never occurred to me that he was a serial cheat. I had never come across one and I wish I had known then what I know now: THEY DO NOT CHANGE. Not for anyone, not for anything.

      Please, I’m serious when I say you MUST leave this guy and you MUST do it now. Your immediate pain will pale in comparison to the enormous pain you’re going to go through further down the road if you stay.

  • Oh my god Nord im shaking reading this. Do you think he may change as the baby is now here?He is loving and caring to our child. I am so confused. I dont have the proof. He denies everything. Says i can look at his phone at anytime. How am i suppose to trust him?And i saw the message from the co worker-she clearly said “STOp messaging me”.its clearly not her. Then on the 15 Jan 2013 at 2300pm he messaged her again and said: I know you not talking to me but do you have audit points for assesment?”. Surely he can get his points from someone else or go online and do it himself.

    Im 32 years old>i met him at 19. I feel so scared

    • I totally agree with Nord. Look, you had ample evidence the guy was a cheater from Day One, I’m sorry. And he told you he was, which in my mind he was grooming you — you’re OKAY with this, right? Seeing if that wasn’t an immediate deal breaker, and it wasn’t, so he knows he can proceed. (It’s fucked up, of course, but in his warped way, I imagine he sees it that way.)

      Lawyer up. Normal, loving people don’t behave this way. Check out the featured article to the upper right — I Just Discovered I was Cheated On. There’s some good to-dos there.

      32 is good news. Lots of life left to not waste with this narcissistic asshole.

      • Oh, and baby’s DO NOT CHANGE THEM (ask Nord, she should know). It makes you more vulnerable to him, which to his mind gives him free reign to abuse you further. He wants you locked in.

        Liberate yourself.

        • I thought at that stage he was young.foolish.his ex was decent girl.I can imagine her pain.he was persistant.would never leave me alone.said I filled a space that noone could fill for years.everytime I go home to visit my parents in another state he doesn’t come with.he’s either working,mothers day I went see my mum was ill-i went alone.cud it be thathe he was looking for opportunities to do his shit?I don’t know.what do I tell him?since I don’t have proof?he always denies it.he called me bipolar once and said I jump to conclusions and another time said I’m shizophrenic.then buys me gifts.

          • Also a few months before my baby was born I got an anon email from someone-saying my husband sent flowers to this co worker for her birthday.I was like 8 months preg.I blew it off-thinking no it can’t be.maybe it was this same women trying to tell me??she said the note said “happy birthday.miss u stacks”

            • Melanie:

              If people are calling you, it must be true.

              I recently found out a man was seeing prostitutes and tried to tell his wife. She would not listen. I first started off with would you want to know, IF you thought your husband was seeing a prostitute.

              She first said, “what would be the point of telling” and I responded “just to keep her informed of reality because she could get a deadly disease”. She then said she would tell, so I told her and she hung up on me.

              Then five weeks. later, she called back saying she found five phone numbers of women on his cell phone, and suspicious texts, and wanted the information about the prostitutes

              I agonized over whether or not to enlighten my friend to her husband’s games. It wasn’t something i did lightly or joyfully.

              • YOu did the right thing. People have the right to know what is going on in thier lives. And fuck the husband. He’s a doucheball.

          • Melanie… Listen to Nord and ChumpLady, you need to get away from this guy ASAP. He is abusing you. He is making you feel like you are the one who is crazy. You say that you don’t have proof. I’m not sure what proof you are waiting for, but what you have described seems like enough. The fact that you are even on this website means that your intuition is telling you something. LISTEN to that voice in the back of your head. Every single one of us on here ignored that voice at some point in HOPES that it was wrong. Well guess what, it wasn’t wrong.

            He probably was young and foolish then. And now he’s older and foolish. He will always be this person. I went back to my cheater, we had a child and then, 7 years later, he is cheating again. And now I have to navigate divorce with a little girl in tow. Don’t do that. Get out, get out, get out.

            He will not change. Not for you. Not for the baby. Not for anything. He is living the life he wants to live.

          • Oh, the old ‘you’re crazy’? Oldest trick in the book. You don’t need to tell him anything and really, you don’t need hard proof. Every person on here will tell you that he is cheating and there’s a 99% chance we’re right.

            And you want to be with an abuser who calls you bipolar and schizo when you question him, then tries to ‘make it up to you’ by throwing gifts your way? Really? That alone is enough to leave. You don’t need a reason, at the end of the day, other than you don’t deserve this kind of treatment.

            Sweetie, it’s going to get worse if you stay. aNd you will lose yourself in the process. Ask me how I know.

        • CL is flat out right: the kids will simply make him feel like he’s getting less attention (because, you know, you’ll be tending a baby and not blowing him the second he walks through teh door or whatever) and while you’re distracted with leaking boobs and cleaning up baby shit you won’t be paying attention to what he’s up to, which simply gives him more time to go fuck around.

          I’m telling you, do yourself a favour, do your CHILD a favour, and get out. Rip off the bandaid (and the blinders) and see a lawyer like yesterday

      • Yup, they groom. They tell part of the truth and they do this so that you’ll say ‘oh my god, he made mistakes but he loves me so much he’s being truthful with me’. In fact they’re doing exactly what CL says: grooming you, already setting it up where you give your implicit ok on cheating by not saying ‘what the fuck? YOu cheated all those times? Beat it, loser’. No, you accepted it and loved him anyway and that was his green light.

        And hell, you’re 32. You’re young. When I was 32 I was having my first child as well. And you know what? It turns out that STBX cheated on me either during that pregnancy or the one after. I’ll never know for sure which one it was but I do know he had a fling during that time. Fun, right?

        GET OUT NOW. See a lawyer and run like hell. Like I said, it will SUCK but it’s better than getting even more enmeshed with a man who is obviously a loser and whose next affair might just bring you a nasty surprise down below.

        • melanie, I’m so sorry this has happened to you. Unfortunately, your choice is to put up with a cheater or divorce his sorry ass and make a better life for you and your child. You want your child to learn healthy relationships, and your husband isn’t going to help with that.

          That said, try to hold in your feelings. Instead, go talk with a lawyer. Are you in a no-fault state? Or does your state consider infidelity grounds for divorce? Either way, you need a lawyer.

          Best of luck to you!

    • melanie,

      I’m in similar shoes… met my husband at 19, we had two kids together and when they were 8 months and two years I found out he was cheating on me (it had “just” gone on 3-4 months… I think). I was 32. 6 months later, I kicked him out, he came back for a few months just until he found his own place (legally I couldn’t force him to leave) and then was gone for good. I’m now 34 and we’re about to finalize the divorce. My kids are now 4 and 2.

      I will say it’s hard. I found and still can find the whole thing a bit embarrassing. Even though I know it’s not my fault, sometimes I still can’t help thinking about what other people think. But everything is easier than the trauma of finding out they are cheating on you. A trauma that THEY INFLICTED on you. I am also most of the time happier than I’ve been in a LONG long time. I’m making plans for myself, have new dreams and goals. And more than just having them, I’m acting on them. And I’m trying new things, just for fun and because I can. I don’t have to live my life around my husband as I had been doing for years. I do worry about my children and their future… what weird step-sibling/mother/father relationships they are now going to have to deal with, how other kids will treat them, etc. And I just have to hope their father is a stand up guy for them in a way that he never could be with me. That part definitely worries me, but so far he is at least a good dad. I can’t know what the future will bring, I just need to do the best I can. And they are adjusting awesome so far… probably the best thing about dealing with this at such a young age is they won’t know what they are “missing”. I have accepted the possibility I could be alone for a very long time. Because I’m not going to settle. But I find being alone much preferable to the shitty shitty limbo I was in with him after Dday. Eventually I would like to find someone and I do get lonely sometimes. But some of that hasn’t actually been as bad as I thought it would be. Even the holidays weren’t as bad as I expected (again, maybe because we hadn’t had a chance to develop a ton of traditions of our own yet… and hanging out with my family was less stressful without him there).

      I know it’s hard, and it does usually take us all a while to “get it”, to stop hunting for unicorns. But I wanted to let you know that you can do it. There is a whole better world for you out there. You don’t deserve the shit he’s putting you through. You have to have respect for yourself.

  • “I thought at that stage he was young.foolish”

    Melanie I’ll give you some background on the serial cheater I had an EA with.

    He was my ex from HS. He was an emotionally abusive cheating asshole back then, but I thought the same thing you did – he was just young and foolish. We were teens etc.

    I didn’t know what emotional abuse was or about personality disorders.

    We dated for almost 4 years in HS, he is 2 years older and graduated before me. He went off to college and after our last break up, met someone there and married her. I never heard from him again. I let it go and moved on. We never had any official “closure” or ending to the relationship. We were always on again off again. But when I found he was married, that was closure enough! It was done. Ha! Or so I thought.

    About 8 years after he married, I was in the middle of planning my own wedding. I was living at my parents house at the time, I was out one night and when I came home my mom told me I had a message from some guy from HS. “Just tell her it’s an old friend” my mom took the message but the answering machine recorded it. It was him. It bugged me for about a week, but then I let it go.

    8 years after that I run into him at a reunion party. His wife was there and their son (who became theirs through international adoption). This when our EA began.

    Do you know how much you have to go through to adopt? Do you think that changed him? No it didn’t. Not at all. Like CL said, baby’s do NOT CHANGE THEM.

    They will go back to old “ego kibbles” exes – if they know new “ego kibbles” aren’t available. In fact old one’s are probably easier to get than new ones. Like I was. New ones take more work.

    I stupidly bagan to interact with him after seeing him, it ended of course BADLY for me. I got what I deserved. 4 years after it happened he emailed me! Back again!

    This time I was very clear and specific. I told him I know he’s a pathological liar, a serial cheater, and called him a dick. I told him to NEVER contact me again.

    Then I changed my email and blocked him on FB.

    He tells you that you are bipolar, my ex told me his wife is jealous and insecure and he told me I was mentally unstable and my emotions were all over the place. It’s always the other persons problem, weakness, fault. Never theirs.

    He also told me the reason he married his wife, “The only job I could find after graduating was out of state, I didn’t want to go alone, so I asked her to marry me”

    They just use people up. That’s all they do.

    Get away and stay away.

    • Oh yes, the can’t be alone thing. STBX actually told the kids, when they asked what was so great about OW, that he fucked it all up with me, he can’t be alone and she’s there for them. It’s ALWAYS about them unless there’s a problem…then it’s all about you.

      Get out.

      • So right Nord. They can’t be alone. The ex was a total mama’s boy and she did everything for him. I really think he just married a “new mommy” I doubt he has ever done a single load of laundry!

        Melanie – Let go of ANY hope for change. Look at the pattern of the guy I told you about.

        4 years in HS
        8 years after he married
        8 years after that
        4 years after our EA

        And this is just with me, think of the others in between.


        • Yep, the mommy thing…stay home and take care of her boy while he goes out and yuks it up. My MIL is totally smothering and sometimes I think he became this way because the only control he’s ever had in his life is over his dick.

          His mother has stepped back in now, taking care of biz for him, making sure he’s ok, ‘protecting’ him from meany me. It’s nuts. He’s got everyone catering to him in this very small world he’s created and it’s all because he cheated and I am a big ole bad person for telling people. boo fucking hoo.

          Melanie, get out, leave the idiot and you will one day look back and realise it was teh smartest thing you ever did.

          If you leave we’ll all buy you a coffee cup! See? A whole new set of coffee cups to start your new life with! Everyone in?

        • This is so spot on, LOT.

          That’s the reality, right there. Cheaters cheat because that’s how they cope. They won’t change how they cope unless they themselves discover a reason to change.

          They are very rarely given a reason to want to change. They prefer a clean slate, which they can get with each “reset”. They get out of a marriage or relationship that went south and they move on to the next person and they say: “Yes, I cheated before, but you’re nothing like my former spouse…this, THIS, is different. You are the love of my life.”

          Except it is all just a fantasy, because under it all, they still cope by cheating.

          • Totally true about the coping mechanism. When we were in MC (Lord help me for agreeing to that) the therapist said it flat out, this is how he copes. And when it all gets too much, when there’s too much damage, he finds a replacement. So while I had no idea he was happy to have secret sidepieces but be the family guy. Once it all came out (that was a fun day or two of reading!) and I confronted him with all I knew he freaked….just could not deal with it and to this day has had exactly one conversation with me about what happened and what he did.

            He even says ‘this is your version of reality, not mine’. Erm, yes, darling, but I have all the emails and messages in a file and there’s no mistaking what you got up to.

            • I had that conversation about the evidence too – he wouldn’t speak, spent most of the time very tipsy. Emails to me sandwiched between emails to two other women: one of whom he was making arrangements to meet in a hotel, the other a marriage offer and then responding to me telling me how much he loved me etc. When you see the evidence like that you cannot kid yourself any longer. GUTTED.

              • Sorry, meant to include that my email said that nothing was going on, it was all in my head and I need to trust him.

              • Yes, some of his emails and messages leading up to dday were being sent to me, current OW and assorted other sidepieces within MINUTES of each other. I mean, he was planning a hookup on a biz trip while telling me I was the best wife and he loved me so much and telling current OW he loved her and would take her on his next biz trip…etc etc etc.

                I’m surprised he never got any of us mixed up.

            • Well so much for these darlings being “special” and “misunderstood”

              They’re all exactly the same and we all seem to understand them pretty damn well.

      • You all are rite-i am totally crushed and devastated.just maybe all our attention would be on our baby-and things will improve?he is so loveing to our baby.he said he loves her.when we were married for 3 years I suggested marrigae counselling.he refused.we just never use to get his cheating pathological?do they know what they doing?

        • Yes, he’s loving to your baby because the baby is nothing but a blob right now that reflects his manliness. Wait until that kid starts talking back and not being a perfect little bubbling bundle of joy. Wait until that kid has problems or is bullied or is struggling in school. Guess who will be doing that heavy lifting in that situation: YOU. And his reaction will be, I absolutely 100% predict, to have an affair and then blame you for not giving him enough attention.

          Ask me how I know.

          • So true, Nord. Never even considered that until I read what you wrote. STBX was so happy to have the kids when they were infants – but after that, I’m the one doing the work of parenting. All he is is the weekend babysitter, and a middling one at that.

            • Yeah, the kids say going to his is like living with a roommate for a day or two. It’s all pizza and burgers and fun times. Here it’s proper home life and proper rules. Oddly, they’re happier and more relaxed here.

              • I really believe kids know an adult they can rely on and one that is full of shit or just “off” in some way. Sure kids want junk food and fun, but inside they all want security, the kind only an adult can give them, not another kid.

  • I am fighting the real need to vomit. I cant seem to eat or drink anything without wanting to throw up!!! I cannot believe that I have been married all this time to a “prostitute”. Yes a fucking dirty prostitute that will fuck anything in exchange for their money and resources. I cannot believe I invested all my time, hopes, dreams, and finances, and well being for cheap bit man whore! And it’s funny how reading one skanks email and her complaints of him spending all his time calling and texting a certain number (yes this skank took a cellphone out for him and pays the bill) led me to uncover the biggest skank of them all! This bastard has been having an affair with the daughter of a prominent minister and she herself is a married minister and principle of a school. here in NYC. OH my God does when does this end. And when confronted he says the yes they were sleeping together but there was no connection and decided it best they be friends, so she now provides him with spiritual guidance and helping him find a job. She knows it was wrong and knows about me and is helping him to reconcile his marriage to me. WTF is he serious??!! What is he telling these women??!! A fucking minister now to add to the never ending growing list of fuck buddies!!! Now today is his birthday and he has schedule a marriage counseling session and demanding that I go and try to fix this with a 5 step plan…and only then will he signed the divorce papers. He went to a reading and the fortune teller told him that its someone from his childhood he needs to comfront to get clean. Oh wait it’s your childhood issues that making you fuck every woman with a paycheck!! I don”t give a fuck if he signs the papers or not I am done. And whats killing me now is I’m the one feeling dirty inside and out! I cant even stand to look in the mirror without feeling utter disgust tat I was sleeping with this man who continues even now to to have connection with these women while still seeking to go to counseling. Then tells me he want this marriage and I need to be fair and give him a change to prove himself… all while still being with these women. Oh yeah he’s no longer sleeping with them he just needs more time to disconnect and when we get back together he is cutting them all off including their friendship. God all I want to do is throw up…I feel so sick.

    • Demanding you see an MC with him? Fortune tellers? Screwing ministers who are now helping with the marriage? And all in NYC? Sounds like a Woody Allen comedy bit from the 70s. I’m not making fun of you, I’m just shocked at how ridiculous these people behave.

      Do you want to live with a cheater? Do you want to live with someone who demands you do anything when you’ve found out this sort of stuff? Or do you want your self-respect and self-love?

  • The shame, humiliation, and disgust I feel is beyond anything I can handle. I don’t want to die, I just don’t want to be here.

    • Don’t die, start grieving and make a plan. MAke lists of things you need to address first and foremost: lawyer, splitting money, bank accounts, etc. Be practical. It will help you focus. Take walks or some other form of exercise so that you get at least a little bit of sleep. Try to eat, even if it’s toast. Rally your friends and don’t be embarrassed or ashamed (easier said than done, I know). You need support and you need to make sure you only surround yourself with people who will have your back and be there for you during this time.

      He could have killed you by bringing home diseases. Is this someone who cares about you?

    • I can assure you that what you are feeling is totally normal, and it’s right, believe it or not. Thank GOD you have feelings, and that they are appropriate for what has happened to you.

      I heard it from others, and I now know it to be true, that after you grieve, and you MUST grieve, you WILL be ok.

      I’m so sorry for what has happened to you. You need to gather up the pieces and get away from that toxicity as soon as you can so that you can rebuild. Your pain and fear will turn to anger, and believe it or not, your anger will yield to what we so lovingly here call, “Meh.” It really will, if you will do the work to grow strong. You will be astonished by your strength and you will be proud of yourself, perhaps for the first time in a long time.

      Sometimes, the ultimate betrayal is what it takes to finally escape many long years of not-quite-seen-as ultimate betrayal, but I’m positive that you’ve been mistreated in many other ways prior to you finding out this truth. Cheaters are cruel. It’s time to move away from it. You will be shocked at how many strong people you will meet on your new journey who share your story, who will be pillars and inspiration in your life.

      You can do this. You must, for the sake of your life, do this.

    • I would ask that you let go of the shame. Give it back to him. You didn’t do anything wrong, so hold your head up high and vow to fight for your dignity. It is a beauty unlike any other.

      Really. I NEVER accepted shame. Humility I took on, when I realized I was vulnerable, when I cried to my ex, when I mistakenly believed for a short time that he was strong and I was weak. But shame? NEVER. HE is ashamed, not me.

      Head UP, I say!

  • What do you need to cope? He is a toxic bastard operating by rules you don’t recognise. You have to keep yourself safe and looked after. The worse the news the BETTER you have to be for yourself. I’m sure others can give you good practical advice. Keep thinking that you deserve more. The Cheater doesn’t.
    I know when I felt I didn’t want to be here, I was uplifted by “Zero Circle” by Rumi. I don’t know whether it will work for you but …(sorry if I’ve taken too much space)

    Be helpless, dumbfounded,
    Unable to say yes or no.
    Then a stretcher will come from grace
    To gather us up.

    We are too dull-eyed to see that beauty
    If we say we can, we’re lying.
    If we say No, we don’t see it,
    That No will behead us
    And shut tight our window onto spirit.

    So let us rather not be sure of anything,
    Besides ourselves, and only that, so
    Miraculous beings come running to help.
    Crazed, lying in a zero circle, mute,
    We shall be saying finally,
    With tremendous eloquence, Lead us.
    When we have totally surrendered to that beauty,
    We shall be a mighty kindness.

  • My computer was down for a couple of days so I have been perusing the recent article and comments on Chump Lady. Reading about them being angry and using the circumstances to turn the angry on you hit home and so I have to share what happened last night because in a sad way it is very funny. Apparently the man who split some wood for us cut the logs a little too long. so you have to jockey them into posistion in our fireplace. I have been using them all this week with only minor problems. Last night as I’m getting ready for bed my husband starts yelling at me because I was stupid enough to fill the wood ring with these logs (well excuse me the were on the pile of split wood I didn’t measure them and besides I hauled the 100 pieces of wood it takes to fill the ring from the stacks across the yard to the back porch no you) After commenting that I did not have that much trouble with them I walked down the hall towards the bedroom. All of a sudden he is at the other end of the hall waving a log at me saying “You could fit this in the fireplace?” It was so ludicris and so funny I had to shut the bedroom door and bury my head in the pillow to keep from LOL. This is the best you can do. Please…

  • My X would do that very same SAT bragging rights deal, and we’re both in our 40s! Hey, I know I did well on my SATs, but I certainly don’t recall my test score. And I didn’t feel the need to brag about it back then as a high school senior, why do I need to do so now?

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