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Dear Chump Lady, I’m the OW and I’m pregnant

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Dear Chump Lady,

I am writing to you because I am involved in a sticky situation, and I am not sure how to proceed. I am the OW involved in the “dance” with a MM for a little over a year. Before I get into the sticky part of this, here is a little background to the situation.

I met MM through a mutual friend. The second time we hung out he said he was married but separated. The timeline goes like this:

  • August: MM gets married
  • Sept: MM separates from wife
  • Feb: I meet MM
  • June: MM moves in w/me full time
  • Oct: MM moves out
  • Nov-March: Lots of pick me “dancing” going on.

In a nutshell, he has broken up with me four times in the past year to go back to work on his marriage. Even though he is the one who asked for no contact with me ever again, he has never gone more than a week without coming back. He always says he comes back because he misses me and thinks he shouldn’t have gotten married, but his lifelong issues with codependency fit in well with her narcissistic personality disorder. (I’m not making that up, she has told me). I know I am the one who allows the dance to continue, but now, this situation is at a whole new level.

My reason for writing is after the most recent declaration from him of “I’m leaving you to go work on my marriage and don’t contact me,” (I’ve heard this so many times only for him to return to me a week later) turns out I am PREGNANT with his child.

My opinion is — yes he was together with his wife for 5 years before they got married, and knows her very well, but he never really gave his marriage a chance. Never gave the stress from the wedding a chance to settle. I have told him to go work on his marriage, and if he didn’t contact me I wouldn’t turn into a crazy stalker, I’m just weak when he comes back and can’t say no. I don’t want him to be with me now just because I am having his child.

Unbelievably, his wife is still keeping the door open for when he is ready to come back and work on the marriage. So Chump Lady, I understand the pain I have caused his wife, and I know I should not be in any kind of relationship with him. I am aware I haven’t dealt with everything yet, and that my low self esteem is one of the reasons I involve myself with a married man. I know what you would say to me if I were writing you this email without adding my soon to be child to the equation, but how do I approach everything now?

I know am okay raising the child alone. I have a well paying job and support from my family, but I want the child to have a relationship with their dad, so how do I move on if he is going to be in my life now for a long time regardless of how we end up?

I don’t know if all the times he’s said he loves me and wishes he didn’t jump into his marriage so fast were his real feelings, or part of the fantasy thinking that comes with every affair. I’m sure you will give me an ear load, but I think he loves me. I know I love him, but I am also realistic and understand that if he was okay with having an ongoing unhidden affair with me, then he will be okay doing it again whether he is with his wife still, or in another relationship.

Personally, I think he needs time alone because if you aren’t okay being with yourself, you will never be involved in a healthy relationship with another person, but that’s for another day.

Thank you for reading this, and if you are willing to offer me your take on the situation I appreciate that.

Regards,

Alexa

Dear Alexa,

You know, I’m always puzzled when OW write to me. (Or link to me from their sites.) Do you want me to bitchslap some sense into you? Reinforce the Trust That They Suck message? Tell you that you aren’t special and he’s using you? Because I’m happy to do all of that, I just won’t give you the compassion that comes with being a chump. I reserve my compassion for those who were sucker punched by infidelity. Not the idiots that walk into the ring with a target on their asses.

Alexa your pain is completely self-inflicted. You got involved knowingly with a married man. I don’t believe for a second “I don’t want him to be with me now just because I am having his child.” Yes of course you do. Getting pregnant, (having unprotected sex) is the trump card in the pick me poker game. Nothing gets attention like “HELLO, I’M PREGNANT WITH YOUR CHILD!”

You wrote: Unbelievably, his wife is still keeping the door open for when he is ready to come back and work on the marriage.

Unbelievably? You took him back a bazillion times, but you were just “weak.” In her case, taking him back is imponderable! I know what will fix her wagon, and keep her from taking him back — a pregnant mistress. Nicely played.

—- An interruption for a Public Service Announcement — Chumps and OW: DO NOT HAVE UNPROTECTED SEX WITH CHEATERS. I know the pick me dance is intoxicating and you’re in it to win it, but please stop making babies with cheaters. Or do it with the full knowledge that you will be raising those kids alone and unsupported. Your cheater idiot cannot commit to anything, not marriage, not lunch plans next Thursday, but certainly not the responsibilities of child rearing. I know it’s a paradox, but loads more adult responsibility given to a fuckwit does not make him more responsible. Thank you. —-

Back to our scheduled blog post… Alexa, what should you do? Get your shit together. As I’ve pointed out, you were not an innocent in this giant mess, but your kid is. The best thing you can do for that child and yourself is get a ton of therapy. Stop with the low self esteem. Stop being sloppy leftovers for an asshole cheater. Stop believing lies — the ones he tells you and the ones you tell yourself. He didn’t jump into his marriage “fast” — by your telling he knew his wife 5 years before he married her. (Probably 5 blissful years of her doing the pick me dance for the awesomeness of him. Vomit.) He’s not codependent, unless he’s codependent with his dick. Enabling his dick to fuck anyone it wants, making excuses for his dick, and hiding the messes his dick makes.

I think you gave some good advice here. Personally, I think he needs time alone because if you aren’t okay being with yourself, you will never be involved in a healthy relationship with another person, but that’s for another day.

How about some alone time working on yourself Alexa? How about devoting yourself in the foreseeable future to therapy and child rearing? You need to raise the bar REALLY HIGH on who you get involved with — because you’re bringing an innocent child into the world and you do NOT want to model fuckupedness to your kid. You do not want to endanger your child with crazy people’s drama (including your own). Children need peace and stability and consistent love. Which is something Mr. Married Man is incapable of giving.

He doesn’t love you, Alexa. People who love you don’t marry other women and cheat on them. People who love you don’t make you a dirty secret. People who love you don’t disrespect you with lies. See how much you need to learn about this love thing before you bring a child into the world?

If it were me, I would have the guy waive his parental rights and support. Or don’t tell him about the pregnancy at all. Go totally no contact with him. Forget what he does or does not do with his marriage. And focus all your energies on your child and getting your shit together in therapy.

If you allow this man into your child’s life (and your life) — you’ve got 18 years of the pick me dance ahead. Competing with the women in his life because you’re “weak” (but I’m the mother of his child!), watching him be the baby daddy to other children he doesn’t give a shit about, enlisting your child from the youngest age to join in the pick me dance (“Pick me Daddy! I’ll be good!”) and being inevitably heartbroken because the guy can’t show up in your child’s life, or be a responsible adult.

I’m sure you’ll ignore what I just wrote and involve him anyway. You see his potential. I’m wrong, he’s Different and He Loves You and fatherhood will transform him into a splendid person, his Best Self Yet.

Ye-ah. Why don’t you print this out and stuff it in a drawer and reflect on it in a few years after he’s stiffed you child support and insinuated himself in your 15th failed relationship?

You have the opportunity to steer this ship on the right course now — cut him out of your life. Go total no contact. Get therapy. Raise the kid on your own. For your kid’s sake, I hope you listen.

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • I think OW come to this site to try to figure out more about betrayed spouses.

    As much as chumps are obsessed with APs, the APs are just as fascinated by the chumps who still have a hold on their cheater’s life. The wives/husbands they are “competing” with are very mysterious. Most OW/OM only have second-hand connection with the spouses, yet us chumps take up a lot of mental space in their heads.

    ‘My cheater went home to his wife/husband again….I wonder what they’re doing?’ The cheaters always say they don’t like their spouses, but OW/OM must see through these lies on some level. Or, “He says he hates his wife, but he’s spent all weekend there without calling me,’ Or, ‘He doesn’t actually enjoy sex with her….does he??!’ Cheaters spend an awful lot of time with their wives/husbands (cake!), while just keeping the AP on the side. The spouse has all the benefits of a legitimate life – the house, the kids, the ring, the retirement future, the public acknowledgment of being in a relationship. The AP has none of this. Also, the APs who are really competing need to know their enemy in order to win, right? That, and to feel better about themselves of why their cheater hasn’t left their spouse already.

    I think CL nailed it – Alexa, just admit that you’re thankful for this pregnancy because it *validates* your relationship with the cheater. Now, you don’t have to feel pathetic anymore about wasting your time on some random guy who won’t leave his real wife. Now it’s legit because you have a baby together, right? You’re doing this for the kid, right?

    Wrong. It’s just more fucked up. And now you’ve fucked up a kid, too. Good work.

    • Interesting theory. I wish everyone would stop doing the pick me dance and leave these idiots to rot.

      When OW engage in the pick me battle it’s not a fair fight. They know they’re competing from the start. Chumps are being sucker punched and then asked to “win” their marriages back.

      Reading on some OW sites that linked to me, I found it really weird that OW liked the message of Leave a Cheater. It’s almost like, if I can’t have him — well GOOD, I hope his marriage fails! Asshole! They feel scorned.

      • I think some OW find Chumplady and discover they’re engrossed in the dynamics of a narc relationship. Up until then they might feel like they’re “the special one” who’s going to change the narc. It’s clear that this OW now feels like a victim. I believe her when she says she has low self-esteem. It’s clear the guy’s wife does too. They should both kick him out and be done with him.

    • ‘My cheater went home to his wife/husband again….I wonder what they’re doing?’ The cheaters always say they don’t like their spouses, but OW/OM must see through these lies on some level. Or, “He says he hates his wife, but he’s spent all weekend there without calling me,’ Or, ‘He doesn’t actually enjoy sex with her….does he??!’ Cheaters spend an awful lot of time with their wives/husbands (cake!), while just keeping the AP on the side. The spouse has all the benefits of a legitimate life – the house, the kids, the ring, the retirement future, the public acknowledgment of being in a relationship. The AP has none of this. Also, the APs who are really competing need to know their enemy in order to win, right? That, and to feel better about themselves of why their cheater hasn’t left their spouse already.”

      OW also need to understand that the cheaters also lots of horrible things about AP just to get into the good races of their spouses. It works both ways.

    • During the five months after dday I still lived in same house as my ex, I saw an email the OW sent him. She wrote that she didn’t “entirely believe” his story of how bad his marriage was (as well she shouldn’t) and she felt very “guilty and didn’t want to be a home wrecker”. But apparently not THAT guilty, because she kept right on having the affair. So I do think OW/OM see through the cheater’s lies, at least on some level, but they don’t let the lies stop them. Because they are disordered, they love the drama and the attention, they love being the star of some over-the-top movie inside their own heads. And yes, I think they are curious about the chump, because they are consumed with jealousy. They know the chump has something they do not have — respectability and integrity.

      • Haha, GIO, I saw a similar note from OW on STBX’s messages.

        When the affair was new, she wrote him to say that she totally understood that his place was with me. Within two months, she was complaining about how much time he was spending with me, how she felt all alone, that only she could answer his needs as a man (wtf? Who writes these lines?). She threatened to break up. At one point, he said that he didn’t respond well to threats. She backed down, but he still has to love bomb her at regular intervals to keep her stringing along.

        But she’s playing Pick Me as hard as she can. She’d get pregnant if she could–I think she tried–but she just had a hysterectomy, so at least that’s not a possibility anymore.

      • I read an email from my ex’s OW stating that she felt he was really MEAN to me… and that he promised her he would never leave her! Guess she thought she was SPECIAL. lol.

  • Wow, I can’t believe anyone can be this stupid. Alexa’s MM is on kibble overload and who can blame him. She believes every lie this man tells her so why should he offer her anything else because he is literally getting the cow free! I would say she sat the bar real low but in actuality there was no bar. He had Alexa’s number when she continued to date him after he told her he was married.

    Damn Alexa were there any elder women that bestowed the dating wisdom for women in your life? Didn’t you listen to what your mama told you.? Someone should write a book, I can’t believe the desperation of some women….really thirsty!

    The possibility of having a kid was the biggest factor in my stbx dropping his OW. She waved that flag and he dropped her like yesterday’s dirty drawers. Having a kid on the side only makes you a baby mama….and your kid a …..not a love child. Grow UP!

    • Yeah Alexa, you can’t tell me you never heard a Dr. Laura program in your entire life. What is this but more proof of the progression toward “Idiocracy” (the movie) Responsible people put off having kids or don’t altogether, while the vapid and insipid breed like dogs.

  • CL,
    Old Alexa is either trolling for reaction from the chumps she’s lined herself up against in her own life, or she’s looking for you to tell her she’s not as bad as she actually is.

    She’s worse – Alexa is every tired and well worn cliche’ about the desperate OW – right down to the getting knocked up to up the ante and trap him into picking her.

    Your response was perfect – and kinder than she deserves. But it’s lost on Alexa – I guarantee it. She’s incapable of empathy outside of herself. She is looking for absolution without doing the hard work involved to achieve it. She’s a lost cause and your great insight will fall on her very self absorbed, deaf ears.

    Personally, I think OW should stay the hell off this site – they all come creeping around either to justify, antagonize or wail because they “aren’t that bad.” They are. Let’s “trust that they suck” as well.

    • I published her letter because I take what most people write me at face value. They want advice. They may not like what I say, but they asked me for my opinion.

      I also published it, and the occasional other OW/OM letter because chumps have a tendency to romanticize OW. She must be so powerful! She’s laughing at me! We give affair partners all this centrality. When you get a close up look, like a letter, or that article in the Daily Mail — you see the truth — this person is a train wreck of dysfunction. There’s no magic here.

      • CL, in my opinion it was helpful that you published Alexa’s letter. We chumps do have a tendency to romanticize the OW. In the end, anything that helps chumps get closer to “meh” is useful.

  • I’m never quite sure whether OW’s who come to this site to seek advice are mad or want us to berate them so that they can gain some kind of absolution (Catholics amongst posters will understand!). I just don’t get it. Why would you come here on an anti-cheating site to declare that you have been the OW and then seek advice? The poor chump wife could be one of us.

    I can’t help feeling that they are making suckers of us & want us to give them our chumpy advice, so that they can laugh at us / look down on us as the fools who were cheated on.

    On that basis, I’m declining to offer any kind of opinion to Alexa (whilst heading off to seek counselling for my own distrust & paranoia).

    • I agree with you 100%. It’s like they get some kind of thrill from the attention, even negative attention.

      Frankly, her letter made me want to take a bath.

      I think she’s a silly ho who knowingly got knocked up by a married man and now wants sympathy kibbles from anywhere she can get them. “poor me I’m pregnant and alone!” “His wife is a mean narc!” “Oh what should I dooooo!”

      Barf.

    • Here, here! Agree totally. This is an OW sad attempt at mindfucking the chumps – blogging style. It’s an insult to every decent person who’s dealt with cheaters and their mistresses or misters that we have to hear about how Alexa’s life is bad because she sleeps with married men and got pregnant on purpose. We are being played, here.

    • Well, when I read on their sites, that’s exactly it. It’s a lot of — I can’t believe she took him back! He’s such a cheater, whereas I Have My Eyes Wide Open in Sophistication.

      I do enjoy the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy. No one is more invested in the pick me game than affair partners.

      I also think, judging by my mail, there is a lot of honest to God recognition of cheater’s manipulation tactics when OW read on this site — and weirdly they relate. Now, the crazy making thing is they just seem to have sympathy for themselves being played — the chump? No sympathy, except maybe some lip service.

      I don’t think Alexa is laughing at chumps. I think she’s oblivious and self involved in her drama. My sense is for most OW, the chump is an annoying peripheral problem. Easily forgotten. Later, when pick me intensifies, the chump is an obstacle To Their Happiness. But the chump is never central in their thoughts — that goes to the cheater. Kibbles!

      • I think a fairly high percentage of long term affair partners, like Alexa, are disordered. Narcs or borderline. They see the affair as an endless source of drama, and they really ARE completely oblivious to the chump, because the world inside their disordered heads revolves only around their own black hole of endless need.

        • That’s it exactly in the case of X’s OW. She’s the worst kind of Vampire Drama Queen.
          The one and only time I approached her, to say that I believe in the closeness of the sisterhood, and ask her to step away so my family could be saved, she stared off into space and said ‘Well, maybe he’s not getting what he needs at home’.
          She cared not one bit for me, my sons, or anything but her sick self.
          Then I felt foolish for even trying to reach out. But, Karma got her a few times already, so it’s all good!

      • CL,

        One danger in not telling the guy about his child.

        Narcissistic types are weird. He might come back years later and suddenly demand his child or time with the kid. Better to get him to sign away his rights, which he may do just to shed burdens, than to try the secrecy thing. I’m not a lawyer, but that could be a time bomb.

        Otherwise, I have no qualms with your answer. I totally agree with you, that all should think of the child-on-the-way first, above all else/others.

        • I agree narcs are unpredictable but what’s he going to do? Find her years later and demand a paternity test? Then what? Pay years of back child support? I don’t see that as terribly likely.

          If she tells him of the paternity, it keeps him in kibbles as long as she lets him. They have that “bond.” He’ll be insinuating himself into her life — for sex. Responsibility? Not one bit of it.

        • I looked into the sign-away-rights thing, and it may be by state, but everything I found said it is not legally binding. So basically you’d be giving him the drama he loves and allowing him not to pay child support…but this chick obviously loves the drama too. We’ll see how much she likes it when her child is spending every other weekend with this douche and his wife.

      • Manipulation tactics: Lundy Bancroft (who works with abusive and controlling men) reports that when they are talking amongst themselves about playing the wife off against the girlfriends – they know EXACTLY what they are doing. They laugh and compare notes.

    • I cant believe his wife freely admits he is a co dependant and that dovetails so nicely with her narcissism LOL.

      She sounds like a piece of work.

      He was separated moved in with you and then returned to let his narcissistic wife/mother walk all over him?? oh my days 🙁

      He sounds like such a masochistic doormat- how can you even be attracted to him he’s so weak he sounds so totally unappealing.

      • I personally found that part sort of hilarious– the OW has all the jargon ready to go; she’s already got their marriage all analyzed (and apparently with the assistance of the wife… not sure I believe that). Goodness, why is she even bothering to seek out CL’s advice when she already has it all figured out!

        One of the best things my XWH ever did was get a vasectomy. I am glad that my children will not be inextricably linked to the Owife through a half sibling. It’s too bad that more cheaters don’t get snipped. I feel sorry for all of the OCs in the world. Life is tough enough; I can’t imagine what it must be like to have two parents who apparently don’t have the ability to think about anything other than themselves.

        • He’s a co-dependant so he needs a narcissist (his wife) Alexa is also a
          co-dependant and this weak guy is her narcissist to focus on.

          Its like a dysfunctional merry go.

          Two co-dependants together was never going to work out was it.

        • My xH (finally!) scheduled a consult for a vasectomy but ultimately refused to get one, because, as he put it, “it’s not fair to OW. What if she wants to have kids with me someday?”

          I wish I were making this up.

          • Hilarious. My XH (hallelujah) refused to get a vasectomy after our kids were born because “no one’s going to mess with my boys.” So, what? I should have more dangerous surgery for a tubal? Be on hormones until menopause? What a narcissist!

            (Facepalm for missing it)

    • My husband also abandoned our daughter and I for his mistress. He tried to come back to us but she immediately trapped him by getting pregnant. I doubt it is even my husbands baby since 5 years ago we went to many fertility doctors to try to add to our family but was told my husband was shooting blanks and impossible to have another child. So now 7 years later he is now 50 her 36 I do not believe it is his but he hasn’t gotten a DNA test yet to prove it like she is terrified of him knowing the truth that it isn’t his. The baby came 5 weeks early at 3 pounds possibly drugs but nothing happens to the home wreckers. The baby finally goes home from NICU and immediately she doesn’t watch her baby dumping it on him to feed and babysit while she is gone all day. What mom doesn’t want to be with her new born baby who almost died ? She only had this baby to destroy his relationship with his first daughter and replace it with her baby girl slowly cutting us out like we never even existed. 27yrs I was faithful and loyal he was my only man I was ever with. She convinced him no one stays married or for the child anymore. I hope she eats those words I hope everything she did to me and my only child happens to her. I hope he cheats on her and leaves her almost homeless like he did me. Nothing can be more evil or hateful than to destroy a family. All I wanted was to have a family and my daughter to know she had 2 parents and was loved. Now I struggle and work so much just to put shoes on my child’s feet. My joys of a mother stolen I can’t be there like I use to for my child. I can’t afford to give my child the luxury life she was use to. My life was stolen my dreams my family now she gets the life that my child and I were suppose to have. Hope she knows what she did to me and my daughter was wrong. Maybe one day she will be me .

  • I think strangely OWs identify with chumps because somehow they feel betrayed by the cheater, too. Like, how can he go back to his wife when he made all these promises to me!

    Anyways, Alexa, I can guarantee you that your having a baby will not make you more attractive to MM. If anything, it will make him run for the hills and hook up with another OW. Don’t you know that one of the primary reasons he is attracted to you is that you are free and unburdened ? Cheaters look to affairs to escape their problems. Your baby will another “problem” for MM that he will need to escape from.

    • “I think strangely OWs identify with chumps because somehow they feel betrayed by the cheater, too.”

      I think you’re right. And talk about a false equivalency! That’s like saying Lee Harvey Oswald could identify with JFK because they were both hurt by bullets.

      • brilliant! , Nomar, brilliant.

        I vote for abortion too, if it’s still possible. I can’t imagine a more nightmarish set of parents, frankly.

        And I humbly suggest that in my fantasy world, the US government clears out Guantanamo prison, and gives the space over to cheaters…for life. No return tickets. A tropical paradise!

        And it removes them from circulation amongst the rest of us, and leaves them to prey on one another. A little bit Lord of the Flies? Possibly. But we won’t have to watch.

          • Janey, it’s my blog and I’m pro-choice. If you have a problem with that you can LEAVE. Same goes for any other anti-choice person.

            I’m not getting into a discussion about abortion on this site. It’s about INFIDELITY. The poster of the letter did not ask our opinion about terminating her pregnancy. She may be an OW, but I respect her CHOICE to raise her kid. And if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy, I would respect that CHOICE as well.

            What I don’t respect is her CHOICE to sleep with a married man. Now, everyone please end the abortion discussion immediately.

      • JFk – serial cheater. IQ of only 119.
        My dad knew hi and was invited to his inauguration. Guy was Creep.

  • Whether it’s popular to say or not; you have other options. An abortion or adoption would be a better route. Neither you nor the MM are mature enough to raise a child.

    • I’m totally pro-choice. But as she already indicated that she wanted to raise the child and had the means to do so, I respected her choice. Abortion, is however, another valid choice. Assuming women have reproductive freedoms still…

      • Datdamwuf March 4, 2014 at 9:02 am

        Whether it’s popular to say or not; you have other options. An abortion or adoption would be a better route. Neither you nor the MM are mature enough to raise a child.
        _____________________

        Why is abortion an option.

        She should not be guided towards abortion by anyone -that is so offensive.

        Unborn children need protection & exercising a choice to kill another human being is something that goes against God.

        Also you don’t know her so how can you possibly measure her level of maturity.

        • I knew the “abortion” suggestion would come up and I respect you, Janey, for your comment. THAT idea is offensive. This whole scenario is offensive, but suggesting abortion on a public site is shameful.

      • Our reproductive freedom is in jeopardy, if more people don’t wake up and work to keep those rights. But you know that, even if you only pay attention to your own state of Texas

    • Yes, Datdamwuf, I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to say this! If Alexa cares about the child, she won’t put this child through this mess with this messed up man. But, Alexa doesn’t care about the child. Alexa cares only about herself. Two narcissists as parents. Yikes! Put the poor child up for adoption if you don’t believe in abortion.

  • Dear Alexa,

    I say this with no intent to hurt you, but I strongly suggest you consider giving this child up for adoption. In considering this option, you can review some helpful information here: http://www.adoption.org/ .

    If you try to raise this child alone, as you are now, you are placing the child in harm’s way. Either no dad in the picture and the child must rely almost entirely on you, or even worse a wrecking ball of a manipulative man-child is in the picture as baby-daddy. Either way the child faces a lifetime of emotional trauma and disadvantages.

    It’s true that many single moms do a tremendous job of raising their kids, alone or with the bio dad, but all indications are that you are not (at least right now, Alexa) that person. You are a mess. The good news is that you seem to sense this, hence the reaching out to CL. So take CL’s advice and work on yourself. Do the heavy lifting in therapy that might one day make you a wonderful mother. But don’t put this child through the familial meat-grinder of your unpreparedness.

    In your affair, you put your wants ahead of the wants of the wife of your affair partner. You have a chance today to change that awful pattern. Place the needs of your child ahead of your own wants.

    Good luck.

    • As someone who was adopted as an infant, I have to respectfully disagree nomar. I don’t want to open up a completely tangential debate here, but adoption can cause some pretty serious emotional issues. If you’re not convinced, look at the overwhelming number of adopted children (yes even adopted as infants) who end up needing significant psychological help. Have I known happy adoptees, yes. Have I known many screwed up adoptees, absolutely. It’s really a crap shoot and not something to be undertaken lightly.

      My fear of abandonment, the major contributor to being an ongoing chump, is rooted in my adoption issues. It’s like a freaking moth to a flame, love equals abandonment/I’m not worthy. Thankfully it’s something I’m working through, but it’s taken me most of my 29 years of life to really get a handle on it.

      I’m not saying that there’s never a case where adoption is the better choice, but I always encourage people to keep their babies if they want to parent them.

      @Alexa: love your baby enough to provide a stable home life for them. If you can’t do this, I would strongly suggest aborting if you’re still early in the pregnancy. (Yes, I went there. My opinion. Please take it for what it’s worth.) This baby will not make the idiot you’re screwing care about you any more than he cares about his wife. You will become a burden and he will toss you to the curb like yesterday’s trash. Guys like this don’t like to provide for others. They will leave you when you’re most vulnerable. As the mother of two children, trust me, being pregnant and having a small child makes you vulnerable. Pregnancy is the big unequalizer between men and women. He can walk away if he’s not committed and it doesn’t sound like he is.

      If you’re fine with raising this baby on your own, more power to you. Just be very clear about what that really means.

      • “If you’re fine with raising this baby on your own, more power to you. Just be very clear about what that really means.”

        That’s just it though isn’t it? This OW has no intention of REALLY raising this child on her own. She says she wants to in one statement, but in the next says she wants MM to be a part of the child’s life. What that means really is I want to use the baby to continue to have involvement with MM. If she wanted to raise a baby truly alone, she would have went to a sperm bank….what she wants is MM.

        That baby was conceived to destroy…to destroy MM’s marriage so she could “win”. That’s a really shitty thing to do to a child.

        • It is a shitty thing to do to a child, but it’s already been done. The OW can abort the child, which I think most of us would agree isn’t an ideal thing to have happen. (Opinions on the degree to which it’s a horrible thing vary, but most aren’t pro abortion.) She could keep the child and raise them in a less-than-ideal situation, trying to make the best of it. She can adopt the child out and risk the child having attachment issues. Some things are about choosing the lesser of several evils. It’s sick because the child is going to suffer no matter which path is chosen.

          I’m hoping that she’s introspective enough to realize that this isn’t going to work out as she’d planned. Maybe she’ll come back to reality and care about the baby’s future enough to be a good parent. Also, if the MM wants to be a part of the child’s life, that should be an option. I feel horribly for the chump in this scenario, but the child isn’t served by not knowing who their father is. Basically, it’s a situation where the child and the chump are hurt by choices others have made for them. This is why society has traditionally frowned upon irresponsible screwing.

      • KT, that was very well stated, and I thank you for it. Infant adoption is not the panacea it’s made out to be in our society; however, it seems to be a sacred cow. Many people who adopt are like affair partners. They derive their joy from the pain of others, and don’t care who they hurt, in order to get what they want.

        (Before I get creamed here, please note I said “many”, not “every single person who adopts or wants to adopt or has ever thought about adopting.” There are many enlightened adoptive parents out there.)

        I once knew a couple who had a marriage in which the husband cheated and impregnated the OW. The baby girl was born only four months before the wife gave birth to their own daughter. The couple stayed together and the wife actually took care of the other baby when her husband had visitation, so that’s two infants, one not her own, she was caring for, plus their two older children. It was kind of well known in the community that she only stayed with him because they ran a very successful business together, founded by his family, but she was the brains behind it and was key in keeping it so lucrative. I don’t know what would have happened eventually, because the guy died a few years after this mess unfolded. I moved away, but last I knew, the wife was still running the business and the OW’s daughter had integrated into being part of the family, and spent more time there than with her mom. Seems that the OW gained very little.

        • Lavinia: You’re right on point about the SOME adoptive parents. I don’t know if it’s so much a thing of deriving pleasure from the pain of others as it is about not caring or rug sweeping. People don’t like it when a situation arises that’s fundamentally unfair. No matter which choice is made, someone loses. That’s how sacred cows are born. Life has to be fair and therefore a positive solution to a crap situation must always present itself.

          In many ways, the whole “it takes two people for someone to have an affair” and chumps accepting partial responsibility for their cheating SO come from a similar place. It doesn’t make sense that someone could be so callous to their partners needs. Therefore, society needs to blame the chump. It protects them from the fact that some situations are inherently unfair and hurtful no matter how you spin it.

          In my life, I’ve encountered several of these sacred cows. I soon realized that I had to kill the sacred cow and risk ostracism by the village if I wanted to keep my sanity. I’m thinking of changing my name to KT Sacred Cow Slayer.

          Stay mighty.

        • “Many people who adopt are like affair partners. They derive their joy from the pain of others, and don’t care who they hurt, in order to get what they want.”

          I have many friends who have adopted. Who suffered through years of infertility treatments and then years of bureaucracy to adopt. I had one friend who went to Vietnam and had TWO failed adoptions — where they put the baby in her arms and then she had to go back to the States and wait and then mysteriously the baby wasn’t available any more. Imagine suffering that TWICE. She eventually adopted a beautiful girl from Azerbajan who is a delight. It’s a decade later and they’re a solid, loving family.

          I have another friend who adopted as a single mother from Guatemala. She had to wait a year to get her daughter and she made trips to the orphanage every month until the adoption was final and brought toys and clothes for every kid.

          I have another friend who was foster parent (you can read about him here — Ed Murphy) who adopted a teenage boy who was abandoned in a building living alone with a slop bucket. Had a steel plate in his head from being thrown down a flight of stairs as a baby. He took that kid in and got him his GED.

          I have another dear friend who adopted two HIV-positive orphans — children who were chained to their beds and locked in a room together alone for 6 months as TODDLERS before they were rescued by missionaries doing AIDs work. These children are little fucking miracles today — succeeding and happy and healthy. Nobody profited from pain — these children were ABANDONED. One was left at a railway station and another was abandoned at a construction site.

          Parenting is a challenge, but I just went off birth control one time and got pregnant. I had one kid. I didn’t take on the incredible challenge of being an adoptive parent, where apparently people question your motives as well as the reality of your connection to your kid. Maybe I don’t travel in the right circles, but the adoptive parents I know are MIGHTY. Brave, and doing the best goddamn job they can do. They are NOTHING like affair partners — they are Unselfish.

          I find your generalization truly offensive.

          • I wasn’t speaking about your friends. Also you should consider that there are very different circles of adoptive parents. I was raised in an extremely fundamentalist church. My biological mother was sent away by her family to live in a maternity home associated with the church. (Yes, this crap still happened in the ’80s.) I’m not going to go into any more detail on this topic, but consider that adoption can draw people for a variety of reasons. Not all of them are selfless or healthy.

            There are many others who have experienced the same thing. I’m far from the only one.

            • I’m sure there are adoptive parents who suck. Who collect children the way hoarders collect moldy newspapers. IMO, these people are aberrant and not the norm. They’re the people you see in the news when they send the kid back to Russia.

              I’m sorry you had an unfortunate upbringing with fundamentalist parents. But please do not discount the people in this world who open their hearts up to adoption — and who do the hard work to raise kids who are loved and very much wanted. Also consider the life that some children would have if they were NOT adopted. Not every child is ripped from his loving mother’s arms. There are children who are abandoned. Cast off. Left to die or rot in orphanages. Or shot scavenging in dumps in Brazil. (Google it.) The time I spent in South Africa, I saw “Twilight Children” — hundreds of homeless children. Toddlers sniffing glue, sleeping in abandoned cars. IMO there are much worse fates than being raised in the First World by fundamentalist parents. If they were abusive, I’m sorry. I do not think such people are the majority of adoptive parents.

            • Like your post Arnold. Very much. Your comment came at the right time. This discussion is getting tense.

            • I vote for LETTING THE WOMAN MAKE THE CHOICE…not guilt-tripping them about an extremely hard decision. Do you really think women go, “Fuck it…I’ll kill my baby today?” No – it’s a decision that every individual makes for themselves and it’s something they have to live with for the rest of their lives. I had one nearly 20 years ago and I still think about it. I would make the same choice again, but it doesn’t mean I’m a cold-blooded murderer the way you’re describing.

          • Thanks Chump Lady for defending adoptive parents – I am one, and although I love this site, I take offense to attacking a group of people based on the “ones you know”.

            I am painfully aware that in order for me to take my son into my arms, another woman had to let him go from hers. My son was born in a country where the children of unwed mothers are outcasts; and his birthmother loved him enough to want a better life for him – to not have him punished by her culture for her choices. Please – this site is meant to support each other in our shared chump journeys – not to attack the way that some of us have chosen to form our families. Please do not go there again.

          • I find the generalizations absolutely ridiculous. I’ve adopted a child. My gosh did I work very very hard to do this. I am still in contact with her birthparents. I did everything I could to make sure that the birthmother and father were making a choice they were informed about. I gave them time and space and they have been offered access to my child after the adoption was complete. Every day when I look at my child, I’m truly grateful. I cannot imagine the grace and courage it took them to place their child with me. I cannot imagine that bravery.

            Do I ever, for a second, take pleasure that they felt that pain so I could be a parent? Are you freakin’ kidding me? No way. The thought has never crossed my mind. Now that is some twisted shit. However, I am absolutely ashamed my marriage failed due to infidelity and it was ME who called them (the biological family) to tell them the marriage was over. My cheater never bothered. So please take your assumptions about adopting parents and seriously reconsider them. I know not every adoption story has a happy ending but let’s be clear neither do biological stories.

      • KT, just to add to the other side of the coin I was a child who used to fantasize about being adopted.

        I too have abandonment terrors. So his cheating nearly killed me emotionally, because it proved -again- I am not worth sh*t.

        Works both ways, sorry. I would have loved a nurturing figure.

        • Ditto Patsy. My ex is adopted and the pain he caused me through his lies and betrayals, I know I will ever recover from. I loved him dearly and was his greatest support and back stop but it wasn’t enough for him.

        • I just need to make that clear: my biological parents sucked so much with their self absorbtion and neglect, that I used to fantasise about some nurturing person taking me away and me become their child.

          [and then I married one].

          The issue is nurturing, not blood (for me).

  • I agree with the other poster who said that the OW comes to Chump Lady because the chump is taking up a lot of the OW’s mental real estate. Cheaters love to play both ends against the middle. The story the cheater spins doesn’t quite make sense. They generally bash their partner, but why don’t they leave? Hmm… That’s ultimately how cheaters get their kibbles. They throw both parties into a state of cognitive dissonance which then prompts them to start up the pick me dance.

  • Alexa,

    I am a man who was cheated on by my wife 7 months ago. I just got married and she started to cheat on me after three months of marriage. The excruciating pain that I deal on a daily basis takes a bit of life out of me everyday. I come to this site to sympathize with other folks who have been betrayed in such a horrible, horrible selfish way. When I see posts from the OM/OW, I just want to meet them in person and yell and scream at them. I have zero respect for you. There are millions upon millions of single men out there that you could of pursued. You along with my STBXW are weak. You guys want what is forbidden. You know that pursuing anothr MM gives you validation and the fantasy of knowing something forbidden is pursuing you. You have no respectf for marriage and vows. My STBXW left me for another married man whom was her supervisor at the time. I talk to his wife and we have been each others support system through the who situation. Talk about the lifelong scars I will have to endure because of it. You suck, suck, suck, suck as a person. You are a selfish, immature, disrespectful, low-self esteem idiot. I am sorry but I will tell the OM who wrote here the same thing. Don’t worry though, you have a kid with him and you and him are always going to have to have contact so you think you won right?! I don’t know you personally but if I could could put cheaters like you in a room, lock the door and throw away the key I would. You can’t fathom the pain unless you have been through it. I hope someone betrays you. You get what you deserve. Enjoy being the OW for the rest of your regardless you start a relationship or not. See how long he stays ‘faithful’ to you. Points the middle finger at you.

      • ThatGirl, yes we do! Thanks to women and men who cheat on their spouses, I feel no desire to want to pursue another relationship for a long time. If me and my wife’s marriage was that bad, she wouldn’t of needed to sneak behind my back and sleep with other guys. she could of straight forward told me she didn’t love me and she wanted her panties wet by other men and not me. Even though divorce is the route I took…it was still hard to say goodbye to a woman that I truly loved. Oh my STBXW’s married boyfriend will get burned just like me.

      • She has experienced no such thing. She is a betrayer of others just like the cheating husband is.

        Alexa is most likely also a narcissist in this scenario. Who but a narc would find it appropriate to unburden herself on a site geared towards betrayed spouses? The very woman who is a party to the cheating is seeking absolution from a website filled to the brim with betrayed spouses and seeking our sympathy. The ego and self-absorbtion that this woman is displaying is literally mind-boggling to me.

  • Ah, the OW and pregnancy; makes it “twu luv.”
    Less than 3 months after then H and I decided to divorce (after months of him lying saying no AP, then I am in love with her, but never had an affair…), OW got pregnant. STBXH hid that from me and planned to move in her with the kids against the divorce agreement (and had our 12 yr old KEEP THAT SECRET). Then, OW miscarried at 3.5 months, but got pregnant 2-3 WEEKS later.

    At this point, I was laughing at STBXH; OW got pregnant 2x before the divorce was final.
    He was saying things like “we had agreed to wait, I am so upset, blah, blah, blah.

    Ha! He got what he deserves, OW is 10+ years younger, just looking for a baby daddy.
    And now he is back to sleepless nights, etc, and won’t have a kid out of high school until he is 60.

    And the OW/new wife got what __SHE__ deserves: she cheated on her husband with mine, and “won” my now ExH. And what was her prize? A lazy, lying, selfish, coward was takes no personal responsibility for his actions, and abandoned his children.

    @Alexa– give up the MM, he is not worth it. Having a baby with this person to “keep” him will only cause pain and suffering.
    Get some therapy, and move on with your life.

  • Yawn. Another OW with her sob story: “Oh, I know I am such a bad girl for sleeping with a married man! I know I should stop! But I just keep on fucking him! I am so weak!” Blah blah blah. Amazing how all these whores know they should stop, yet can’t control themselves. How do they make it through the day with such poor self control?

    And the clincher: “I’m knocked up with his love child! It’s so terrible! I know I should leave him alone with his marriage, but I WANT MY CHILD INVOLVED WITH HIM.” That’s the reality right there. OW knocked up to “win” the prize of the cheater once and for all. This whore really thinks she’s gonna get that guy to finally leave the wife once and for all, and commit to her! Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Like he’s gonna be faithful! Like the news that she’s preggers isn’t going to cause him to drop her like a hot potato!

    I don’t feel a drop of compassion for this woman. I think she’s in this game to “win.” Personally, I think she should end the pregnancy, but I realize not everyone is down with that. If she must have the kid, she needs to go NC and raise it on her own. But that isn’t going to happen, because that baby is her ultimate weapon in the war to win a lying, steaming cheater. Of course, she is as bad as he is, so they deserve each other.

    • Exactly. I am totally pro-choice. Given that she wants to deliver the baby, I feel sorry for the child. The child didn’t ask to be born to a mother who’s dancing the Pick Me dance, using her unborn child as a weapon against the MM and his wife. The child didn’t ask to be born to a Sparkling Dog Turd masquerading as a man. A child needs one sane parent; this child doesn’t seem to have that.

      So, Alexa, if you’re still reading this, here’s the advice.

      You’re not special. You’re the Other Woman. You went into the relationship knowing the man was married. The fact is that Cheaters love having side pieces. That’s why you will always be the “Other.”

      Now ask yourself if this is what you want for the rest of your life, and if this is what you want for your child.

      Assuming the answer is no–and this is a big assumption–then you need to take stock of yourself. Go to therapy. Start to figure out why you want to be a side piece. Do. The. Work.

      Go No Contact with your sparkly Dog Turd. He’s already shown you that regardless of what you think, he’s not interested in being part of that child’s life. And this is probably a very good thing.

  • You absolutely suck Alexa. You ARE doing the pick me dance if you are going to go to him and let him know you are pregnant because you want him to come live happily ever after with you. If you are so amazing and capable and have so much help, go do it on your own. He’s a jerk cheater. Quit contributing to his jacked up marriage. Have some self respect for yourself. Think of it this way, you have a child to carry and raise now. Do you want a son to be like him? Do you want a daughter like you? Because children immitate their parents! And if you make crappy decisions, your kid can grow up making crappy decisions. Be a role model. Not a hoe model! Maybe his wife is doing the pick me dance. That’s HER choice! That’s HER husband!!! Maybe she’s just wanting to save her marriage. Get the eff out of it!!!! Even if he leaves her to be with you and the kid, there will never be a happily ever after. He will stray. He will cheat. He will lie. It’s called karma. Trust me, all the BS lies he’s feeding you, he’s feeding her as well. So you are believing all the same stuff she is. Don’t judge her. Judge your ownself!

  • Dear Alexa,

    please, please, please:

    have an abortion
    get a life
    fix your picker and find someone who will treat you right
    for well deserved and long term happiness.

    Please don’t drag a child into this mess. Please don’t. Why am I telling you this? Because I have JUST staggered away from intense counselling someone who has discovered they are the product of an affair, their real father is a married man with other children and nothing is real anymore. She is in very real danger right now – of self destructing over what other people’s behaviour and choices have done to her.

    When I think of the pain – no, the AGONY – I am trying to contain, I would like to fly over to wherever you are and beat you to death for your stupidity and selfishness.

      • No, my outrage at the hurt these morons inflict on other people makes ME (at the time of writing) want to beat her to death.

        Don’t extrapolate, Arnold. Are you in a bad space at the moment? You are doing it a lot at the moment.

        • I’m just trying to follow the reasoning re advocating death of a child just because life may throw some hardship to the child down the road.
          I bet most of us have faced adversity and challenges. I still find joy in life, despite a childhood that i would bet rivals the hardship(alcoholic dad, severe abuse, moelstation by a teenage multiple times when I was 11, etc.) faced by your client, Patsy.
          I always wondered why, if a pro-abortion person is making the argument that life should be ended because of potential hardship down the road, we do not, simply, allow the d child to be born and, once it reaches the age of reason,give it the choice of assisted suicide. Then, the person affected by the hardship makes the call on whether life is worth living. Instead, someone elses judgement, someone with less at stake, makes the call.
          As for “reproductive freedom”. what about the “reproductive freedom of the female children that are being snuffed out? Don’t they get a choice on whether they want to be alive to reproduce. Or, does the mere passage through a birth canal, miraculously imbue a bing with human status, and all the rights that attach?

          • Cancer is “alive” too. We give cancer no choice.

            Stop with your preaching Arnold. You don’t even own a uterus and as such have no ball in this game.

            BTW-every time you masturbate, you are murdering millions of potential “kids”, or future leaders. How can you live with yourself?

          • I have a different take on your argument here Arnold. In my opinion, I never met anyone who could honestly say they’d had the perfect upbringing/childhood, and I am suspicious of anyone who would say otherwise. I believe it’s actually a natural part of growing up and being human to have suffered ‘trauma’ in childhood. either mum and dad were too distant / negligent or mum and dad were too indulgent / smothering. I haven’t met anyone yet who didn’t have some sort of ‘issue’ with how they were raised. Ultimately, (and I am actually pro-choice, I don’t have an issue with abortion – though it becomes distasteful and very questionable when adopted as a routine method of birth control in this day and age, and the time limit should be dramatically reduced. I had a miscarriage at 19 weeks and, though officially my baby was viewed as an aborted fetus – believe me, I gave birth to a beautiful son, sadly stillborn) we cannot possibly judge whether a person born in ‘perfect’ or ‘dramatically disadvantaged’ circumstances has any more right to live, or has anything more or less to add to the whole of humanities experience. I am certain there are many, many good souls in the world who were not born of perfect people or in the approved of circumstances, so how could I possibly believe this particular child should not exist simply because it’s parents were not perfect? I personally was born out of wedlock. The thinking in those days was secret abortion or mother locked up in mental hospital. I am so grateful that I had wonderful grandparents who didn’t advocate either of these options (though that was the accepted wisdom of the day). I guess many of my generation were not so lucky.

          • I hear what you are saying, Arnold. It is a very sad fact that the amount of immigration required for Britain equals the number of children terminated (3 million). I do think in a way we are killing our societies.

            But the hell of a helpless powerless child having to survive and get a sense of reality through the manipulations of fuckwit parents? I would have been quite happy to not be born. The world is hardly going to rock on its axis without me in it.

            Sorry I come from Africa, maybe we are a bit less afraid of death here.

            • That may be a valid choice relative to your own desire to live, Patsy. But, abortion deprives another person of life.

  • Feb: I meet MM
    June: MM moves in w/me full time
    Oct: MM moves out
    Nov-March: Lots of pick me “dancing” going on.

    So basically, this means that the entire length of your “relationship” with this man has been utter and complete bullshit. You “dated” for 4 months, and moved his ass in, then you basically had 5 months of living with this turd before he moved out, and then you danced.

    Explain to me why a condom didn’t enter into the equation? Let’s pretend he wasn’t even married; what if he was just a boyfriend and he jerked you around. Why do you think this guy really is worth all this trouble? How are you going to explain this to your child, especially if he is in the picture?

    IMO – If you are going to have this baby and raise it on your own, cut off all contact with him and raise the child right. But you’ll need help and you need to figure out why you’ve made such incredibly selfish choices. Be someone your child can look up to. That’s going to take a lot of work.

          • LOL. No condoms and russian roulette birthcontrol heighten the sense of dangerousness just like “what if my wife finds us”.

            It’s the adrenaline that addictive. Just ask my 19 year old bull-riding son. 8 seconds or less, that’s all it takes for a juicy hit, and he’d keep going back for more if he could afford it. (he’s not that great at it, so he’s not going back for the payout money)

            • Check mark for Chumpalicious! I agree–it’s the whole (more danger/risk = more sexy sexytimes>) mentality…wheeee. To hell with the consequences, or anyone who might get hurt.

              It must explain why the lack of BC or condoms is so prevalent among cheaters of all persuasions. My ex did not use them, and he was fucking an MD… She said, “Oh, I’m a doctor, I have to get checked for STDs all the time.” lolwhut?

              Maybe so, and she was a bit long in the tooth to get preggers (thank the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster).

              But, I said to him, “what about all the other guys she probably fucked since her last checkup? Were they clean????”

              <>. could have heard a dime drop. They really don’t think with their neurotransmitters, if at all.

              • My ex LOVED the unprotected sex. Is it a Catholic thing? It never occurred to me, but perhaps this was part of the thrill with OW. He said she couldn’t get pregnant, “because she’s too old,” and yet claimed he was using protection. Doh! I called him on the incongruity. Why would it occur to him to worry about getting her pregnant, if he was using protection? He was having unprotected sex with her, AND with me–but of course, I’d had the tubal ligation (because he refused to take any responsibility for birth control ever.) So, the risk of pregnancy (in his mind) probably only added to his excitement.
                Of course, not having teen-aged kids around also makes sex more fun.
                Thank God those two freaks didn’t bring babies into their fucked-up life.

  • She’s involved in a “sticky situation “. Just wait until the baby comes home, she’ll be living in a Shitty situation. It breaks my heart for that baby! Alexa, open up your eyes to Your Faults! You have been the cause of your own hell, and the hell of others, because of selfish, poor choices. It’s time to grow up! Take responsibility, and stop blaming Him or his Wife! It’s all You! You are going to be a mama. Trust me, it’s the hardest thing you will ever do. That loser you created your child with will not only disappoint you, but now continually hurt your child. Nothing hurts worst in the world is to see your child hurt from something You did to them.

  • ” his lifelong issues with codependency fit in well with her narcissistic personality disorder. (I’m not making that up, she has told me).”

    Does this mean that Alexa is in contact with MM’s wife? Coz IMHO that brings up a whole other level of fuckupness to all this…

    Alexa, you need to go through CL’s website, and reread the articles like “The Unending Punishment of Breeding with a Fucktard”. At some level, conscious or not, you have chosen to breed. However, this is not about how cute you look in mat wear, what pretty baby furniture you can buy, or whether this child is going to fulfill YOUR need for love. This is an innocence child. This child’s life-long well-being depends on his or her environment being a rich, supportive, STABLE one. S/he doesn’t need to end up being a pawn in a lifelong pick-me dance between you and MM. If you chose to fuck yourself and others over, you are all adults. This is a CHILD. They are more powerless over this situation than even us chumps.

    So, as I see it, you do have some choices. These choices are for the child’s well-being. That child is the priority.

    a) Maintain NC. Forever. Preferably leave the state, do not give a name of a father on the birth certificate, and do everything CL and others say to get your shit together so that the next generation doesn’t have to pay for your own stupidity.

    b) Maintain NC for the duration of the pregnancy. Do not name a father on the birth certificate. Get a well experienced and qualified social worker in the adoption process to guide you for the best solution for you and the child. Give the child for adoption. Yes, there are people for whom this was not a good experience. There are also people for whom being adopted was a blessing. You will hear stories of both positive and negative; learn from the negative ones about how you can make adoption better for this child.

    After that, hopefully you would maintain NC and get your shit together anyways, but we have no control over that. At least the child won’t have to wallow in the shit bed you made.

    c) Abort. No child. BUT, and I don’t say this due to a religious point of view, I say this as a person who has lived it, and have suffered afterwards with others who have made that decision, abortion is NOT without emotional (and for some, physical) consequences. It is a quick fix with lasting memories, pain, and regret. I won’t go into all of it, but I suggest that should you think of abortion, seek professional counselling–for more than one session. Go to a crisis pregnancy centre as well to compare–of course they will be “pro life”, but my personal experience is that not all counsellors are well-equipped to talk about how an abortion MAY affect your emotional well-being on the long term. This is not to say that every person experiences those consequences, but you need to be aware of them before making that kind of decision.

    Whatever you choose, it needs to be for the child’s good. You’re an adult. Act like it.

  • BTW CL, could you please get that public service announcement to be compulsory reading on Ashley Madison and every other dating site before signing up?

  • “I am writing to you because I am involved in a sticky situation, and I am not sure how to proceed.”

    Oh, I think you know exactly how to proceed. You just want someone else to validate your choice to do the opposite.

    “I am the OW involved in the “dance” with a MM for a little over a year. Before I get into the sticky part of this, here is a little background to the situation.”

    Wait, you’re involved with a married man and that’s NOT the “sticky” part? Seriously?

    “I met MM through a mutual friend. The second time we hung out he said he was married”

    This is where it should have ended. If he was really separated, his wife would have told you.

    “The timeline goes like this:
    ■August: MM gets married
    ■Sept: MM separates from wife”

    And you believed this? You honestly believed that two people who knew each other for 5 years were only married for a month?

    “In a nutshell, he has broken up with me four times in the past year to go back to work on his marriage.”

    You sure about that? How do you know he hasn’t broken up with you four times in the past year to go fuck around on his wife with other AP’s? You take him back every single time, so what’s to stop him from putting you in his back pocket for a while as he finds some fresh ones to toss around?

    “Even though he is the one who asked for no contact with me ever again, he has never gone more than a week without coming back.”

    So stop answering the phone when he calls.

    “He always says he comes back because he misses me”

    Cry some more.

    “and thinks he shouldn’t have gotten married,”

    Well THAT’S for sure…

    but his lifelong issues with codependency”

    See this? ^ That’s called a “pity party.” He’s guilt-tripping you into taking him back because he’s Just Troubled and Needs Help because he Can’t Stop Himself. The sure-fire thing to cure him would be if you just spread your legs a little bit…

    “fit in well with her narcissistic personality disorder. (I’m not making that up, she has told me).”

    Bullshit. I don’t believe that. Why in hell would the betrayed spouse tell the OW that she has NPD. Sorry, but I do not believe that at all. Actually, no I’m not sorry. Personally, I think you’re just saying she told you to make yourself look less bad.

    “I know I am the one who allows the dance to continue,”

    So stop.

    “My reason for writing is after the most recent declaration from him of “I’m leaving you to go work on my marriage and don’t contact me,” (I’ve heard this so many times only for him to return to me a week later) turns out I am PREGNANT with his child.”

    WOW. What a crazy, random happenstance! That’s just Such a Coincidence that you would just surprisingly get pregnant RIGHT when he’s leaving you again! How weird!

    -_-

    C’mon. Do you think we’re idiots? (Probably…) You know that unprotected sex can lead to pregnancy. You did that on purpose and we all know it.

    “My opinion is”

    Your opinion doesn’t matter. It’s not your marriage.

    “yes he was together with his wife for 5 years before they got married, and knows her very well, but he never really gave his marriage a chance.”

    That’s not your problem or business.

    “Never gave the stress from the wedding a chance to settle.”

    A wedding isn’t a marriage. It’s a ceremony. A marriage is a lifetime committment. They could have gotten married by a Justice of the Peace at the courthouse and your opinion still wouldn’t matter because it’s not your business.

    “I have told him to go work on his marriage, and if he didn’t contact me I wouldn’t turn into a crazy stalker, I’m just weak when he comes back and can’t say no.”

    So start saying no. This really isn’t all that complicated and you damn well know it. You just choose not to do it.

    “I don’t want him to be with me now just because I am having his child.”

    Yes you do, that’s why you got knocked up.

    “Unbelievably, his wife is still keeping the door open for when he is ready to come back and work on the marriage.”

    “Unbelievably?” Honey, you started dating him knowing he was married and got knocked up to try to keep him. And you find HER, the one he actually put a ring on, to be unbelievable? Sure, it’s not good for her in the long term to stay with this man, but that’s not your decision to make.

    “I understand the pain I have caused his wife,”

    No you don’t. Because you’re all to willing to keep doing it.

    “and I know I should not be in any kind of relationship with him.”

    Then don’t be.

    “I am aware I haven’t dealt with everything yet, and that my low self esteem is one of the reasons I involve myself with a married man.”

    Clearly. No self-respecting woman does what you’re doing. End this and get into some counseling to figure out why you care for yourself (and others) so little that you would do this.

    “I know what you would say to me if I were writing you this email without adding my soon to be child to the equation, but how do I approach everything now?”

    You know exactly how.

    I know am okay raising the child alone.”

    Then do it.

    “but I want the child to have a relationship with their dad,”

    No, YOU want a relationship with their dad.

    “so how do I move on if he is going to be in my life now for a long time regardless of how we end up?”

    He shouldn’t be in your life. It doesn’t matter if he’s your kid’s father. That kid should not have been conceived. It’s not enough for a child to just have a biological father in their life. That father has to be a man of quality, which your MM absolutely, completely, is NOT. Y’know what your child will learn from a father like him? Your child, if it’s a boy, will learn to treat women like Pez dispensers. Pop them open when you want a treat, and just refill it with something different when it runs out. And there’s all different kinds to collect. He will learn selfishness and carelessness. He will not value committments or relationships. He will care about no one but himself. And he will learn, from Mommy, that it’s okay to have a wife at one end and a dish on the side, because, hey, why not? Mommy was a side dish.

    If the kid is a girl, she’ll learn submissiveness, codependency, and that getting involved with married men is ok. She will learn that getting pregnant as a means of keeping a man is a viable option, because that’s what Mommy did. She will learn that men will disrespect her and she’ll allow them to do it. She’ll end up with self-esteem as low as YOURS.

    Or, she will end up like this: http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1881/

    ^The woman on this show is a child of an affair. She is incapable of having relationships because she feels like she doesn’t deserve to be alive. She hates herself, and her family has virtually ostracized her because of how she came into existence. Her life has been absolute hell and suffering since it was revealed that she is the product of an affair.

    Yah. THAT’S romantic. THAT’S the life you want for your kid. Have fun with that.

    “I don’t know if all the times he’s said he loves me and wishes he didn’t jump into his marriage so fast were his real feelings,”

    Trust me, they aren’t. You’re a fuck toy to him. If he loved you all that much and really regret his marriage, he would actually divorce his wife. Guess what, he’s telling his wife the same thing. “I love you” “I want to work on this.” All. Bullshit. He loves himself.

    “or part of the fantasy thinking that comes with every affair.”

    Your affair ain’t special, honey.

    “but I think he loves me.”

    He doesn’t.

    “I know I love him,”

    Too damn bad.

    “but I am also realistic”

    I don’t think you know what that word means.

    “and understand that if he was okay with having an ongoing unhidden affair with me, then he will be okay doing it again whether he is with his wife still, or in another relationship.”

    If he’ll cheat WITH you, he’ll cheat ON you. And you are NO exception.

    “Personally, I think he needs time alone because if you aren’t okay being with yourself, you will never be involved in a healthy relationship with another person, but that’s for another day.”

    That’s the first sensible thing you’ve said.

    “Thank you for reading this, and if you are willing to offer me your take on the situation I appreciate that.”

    I’m pointedly less nice than CL.

    Regards,

    Kara.

    • “but I want the child to have a relationship with their dad,”
      No, YOU want a relationship with their dad.

      Yes, this!

      • Amen Kara! Tell it girl! All she is doing is crying like a babbling baby…it’s plain drama! do you think there would be this much drama if she was dating a SINGLE man. Nope. Babies happen and breakups happen in BF/GF relationship…but oh wait…married MEN. A treat this is! I hope hell has a nice spot for men and woman like these drama queens and kings. *Throws up another middle finger* to these $%^holes. Dueces!

        • Woohoo, Kara!

          TELL IT EXACTLY LIKE IT IS.

          Hey, Arnold:

          “^The woman on this show is a child of an affair. She is incapable of having relationships because she feels like she doesn’t deserve to be alive. She hates herself, and her family has virtually ostracized her because of how she came into existence. Her life has been absolute hell and suffering since it was revealed that she is the product of an affair.”

          Does my outrage sound more understandable now? The PAIN of the young woman I was talking to…. sometimes I think the Iranians have the right idea. But I will calm down soon. There are people who just suck in this world, and we have to learn to recognise them and avoid them. It is what it is.

          • Like I said, Patsy, many of us have faced similar hardship(tough to quantify it). I’d still rather be breathing so I can tee it up at pebble Beach someday.

      • Alexa wrote here to get exactly what every narcissist wants. Drama and arguments with people who previously got along. She wants this group to have infighting.

        See how powerful she is?

        that is why NC with narcs is the only way.

  • Alexa, you accidentally on purpose got pregnant; don’t kid yourself. You are a special kind of stupid.

  • ” but his lifelong issues with codependency fit in well with her narcissistic personality disorder.” ~Alexa

    Alexa, What gives you the impression that “codependents” are somehow less abusive and damaging than “narcissists”?

    http://codependency101.com/

    “…..Sharon Wegscheider-Cruse, provides an excellent definition of Codependency. She describes it as:
    “a specific condition that is characterized by preoccupation and extreme dependence — emotionally, socially and sometimes physically — on a person or object. Eventually, this dependency on another person [or object] becomes a pathological condition that affects the co-dependent in all other relationships”

    Codependents are the ultimate example of a Persecution Complex description. They always feel victimized, oppressed, and self-sacrificial. Although codependents may feel they give an inordinate amount of responsibility, obligation, and worry for another and mistakenly feel like they are giving, giving, giving, in reality they are actually taking, taking, taking. The only thing a codependent person wants to hear from his unappreciative (of course, this is usually in his imagination) spouse is the words “I feel so guilty about everything you do for me”.

    However, in reality, codependents do very little for the healthy betterment of their relationships, or the wholeness and completeness of their lives. Whereas they think they are doing for everyone, they are actually doing for themselves. Every time they can feel over-giving and under-appreciated (their main goal), they climb higher up in their Ivory-Tower and feel justified in hugging themselves while they hang from their self-imposed crucifix. Codependents appear to be very poor givers, so wrapped up in their imagined glories and self-sacrifices that they never really, truly give genuine love and care just for the simple reason of giving it and not for the real reason behind why they do give and give. And what is that reason you ask? Codependents give only for two causes and one reason; to cause ‘self-pity’, and to cause ‘manipulation’ of those around him, for the reason of being able to embrace, nurture, and love themselves, and to feel safe and secure..

    A codependent person—although it may appear that they are over-conscious and over-aware of others—in reality are only conscious of their own role in other’s lives and not with the actual other person themselves. They only need to pre-occupy themselves with other’s emotional well-being and feelings to see what their own status is to that other person, and how they fit in that person’s life. Although the experts seem to claim that a codependent person is overly involved in other’s moods, feelings, and emotional being, they actually are more astute to another’s moods, feelings, and emotions only when it directly relates back to themselves so that they may analyze the role they play in that person’s life. Many codependents have an intense need for acceptance and validation of who they are. They can be more selfish and self-involved then fiercely independent people are, as they are so engrossed in the role they play in other people’s lives that they become obsessed with others’ moods and well-being only as it relates to themselves.

    Codependents lack in self-perception and can only identify who they are through that of a second person. They manifest ‘who they are’ only through another’s eyes, thoughts, or views of them…and without another they are unable to find their own identity. Codependents tend to latch onto partners because of this lack of being able to self-identify through themselves.

    Thus, codependents become ’emotionally unavailable’ or ‘uncaring’ to others, unless it is for the selfish reason of improving their own role in that person’s life. Everything they do they do to pity themselves or to applaud themselves…nothing is done out of voluntary loving or freely given for the mere fact of truly caring for another. NOTHING! Everything that a codependent person does is done to further establish their self-pitying thoughts of ‘overdoing’ and of being taken advantage of and for granted, “I am so unappreciated around here, they treat me like their slave…”, or their self-worshipping thoughts that they are perfect and well-respected for the ‘good’ or ‘right things’ that they do unto others. “I am a great person, see how I saved the day!” These thoughts are based on the fact that because they are overly concerned with the role they play in other’s lives that they become more acutely aware of how others do or do not acknowledge what they do.

    Basically, the codependents motives are all about gaining self-pity or gaining self-respect enough so that they can feel safe and comfortable enough to embrace their own inner soul and give much needed self-love to themselves. Just below the surface of every codependent is a lost and rejected child that doesn’t feel that who they are themselves is worthy of love.

    A codependent is so caught up in their own little “I am a self-sacrificing hero” fantasy that they have no idea that they have no real identity of their own, and are actually (and ironically) never really fully available to another (although they believe just the opposite). Codependents spend an inordinate amount of time hugging themselves and finding new ways to feel like they are abandoned and unappreciated, or acclaimed and heralded. They spend an elaborate amount of time planning ways to feel more damaged and martyred (so they can heroize themselves), and to do this they must worry more about making everyone but himself happy. They must be self-sacrificial. Although they feel that they are over-giving and over-doing, they actually do very little real emotional loving, or make themselves truly available to the people in their life. (It is hard to be there for somebody in an honest and genuine sense, when you are being bitter and indignant about the fact that you are there for them.) You can never love a codependent person enough, for they will not feel your love, they will only feel all the drummed up sacrifices they have done for others. A codependent person will not hear, “thank you, I appreciate that” but will seek out and concentrate his focus on all the non-acknowledged things that he does do, whereas most non-codependents will hear the “thank you” and not really get to worried over the fact that occasionally someone didn’t acknowledge something they did for them. A codependent person very rarely recognizes genuine acts of true love and caring from their spouses, but rather is hypervigilant to their spouses negativities or requests (which the codependent person takes to mean ‘more demands’ on, and ‘belittlement’ of, them).

    Codependent people have a huge hole in them that needs to be fixed. They find temporary relief via another person’s redemption through them, as it allows them to redeem themselves when they see themselves through the other’s eyes. This may possibly be the reason why codependents almost always choose mates that have ‘problems’. They can find a temporary patch for their own ‘hole’ by fixing others’.

    The simple fact is, the codependent person is an unavailable partner.
    Codependents have this empty hole that only they can fill up. Sometimes you may be able to get it a quarter full, or even halfway full, but no matter how much you put in this bucket, it keeps falling right out the bottom. ”

    ***

    Alexa? There is a much bigger issue than your relationship with this man, and it is: How are you going to insure that the innocent child has a fighting chance at some semblance of a normal life?

    From where I stand, I don’t see much chance of the three of you abandoning your own “navel-gazing” long enough to consistently behave in the best interests of any child.

    One word: Adoption.

    • FABULOUS comment, thank you.

      We Chumps have to get our sh* together too. Horrible stuff is sent to you to teach you to grow.

      Can I recommend Al Anon or Adult Children of Alcoholics (now altered to cover all dysfuction), also Overeaters Anonymous. All great 12 step programmes that gently help you take the focus off the other, and on to yourself. Free therapy and support.

      • THANK YOU, Patsy.

        You get it!!!!!

        I see too many comments here from people who have made a decision to be flaming codependents, firmly anchor themselves in victim mode and flog that position mightily and without ceasing…through perpetual venting… and venting… and venting… and venting… and venting.

        At some point (preferably sooner than later) venting needs to stop and a sense of, “I am the captain of my ship. I can sit on the deck and look at the broken mast while sailing in circles OR I can repair the mast, hoist the sails and GO SOMEWHERE BETTER!” needs to be taken. It is a choice. Nothing more than a choice combined with a plan, and a “CAN DO” attitude.

        To the chumps (who refer to their own horrible childhood as having given them insurmountable “issues”) and then turn and point the large finger at their cheater moaning, “Pathology is not an excuse for cheating, and he has totally destroyed my life.” My response is, “Pathology is also not a an excuse for allowing having been “victimized” to turn one into a lifelong “victim.” The choice is up to you. You can make excuses and give away your power OR you can decide that will not lie down and die in a puddle of drool.

        In life SHIT HAPPENS. We make MISTAKES and encounter problems.

        My question is and will always be: “So what are you doing do?”

        ALTER YOUR PERSPECTIVE: CHANGE YOUR REALITY.

        …Or as CL says CLEARLY at the top of the blog, “Leave a cheater. GAIN A LIFE. …And nowhere does CL say that gaining a life is necessarily always a “walk in the park.” It requires intentionality and WORK.

        • Fabulous quote I saw once on another blog

          “Comfort and breakthrough do not ride in the same vehicle”

        • I vent, occasionally. But, I am the happiest I have ever been these days.
          I recommend the youtube stuff on mgtow for men and the stuff from Melanie Tonia Evans for recovering from NPD abuse.

  • I am disgusted with the comments encouraging the OW to have an abortion or give up for adoption. I may have read the post incorrectly, but I don’t think the OW asked for any advice in that area. I don’t think it is our place to comment or make any kind of recommendations related to that. Let’s keep it classy.

    I am also disgusted with every bit of the OW’s letter in general, although I can see why CL posted it. I am not giving the OW any of my time by commenting to her or making suggestions to her. She made her bed, let her sleep in it. The OW sucks ( I won’t even address her by her name) and the cheating husband sucks.

    I hope the wife is able to find this website. I’d rather extend advice and suggestions to her.

    • ChumpedTwice: the pain of children is a special kind of pain, because they are utterly helpless.

      Don’t romanticise childhood. Children deserve the best outcome, hence the advice.

  • It has taken me five years to move on from the white hot rage I had toward the OW who helped my exH destroy my family. Coming to this site as an OW, and thinking you will find some type of – anything – is just as disordered as your knowing choice to screw a married guy and get intentionally (admit it) pregnant.

    The primary OW in my marriage lived on another continent, and planned with my exH for him to marry me, then divorce me when he had a green card (yep, I saw Green Card…). They had an apartment together in Europe, and she somehow believed that he and I were “didn’t really have a marriage”…until he was married to me for 5 years, still hadn’t tried to do the paperwork to sponsor her or divorce me. Oh, and he forget to tell her we had our daughter. So OW got tired of waiting, and married someone else. That apparently lasted a couple years, and then they hooked back up again, and she chose to believe we were divorced, and he was coming back to her…3 more years passed…get the picture? You OW/OM CHOOSE to believe the person you KNOW is cheating and lying. In my case, I didn’t lie about stuff like that, and it didn’t really occur that he was. OW could have found out that her married boyfriend was still married and now had TWO kids by simply googling his name. She either played stupid or was stupid. Chumps are usually blindsided by the truth – if you’re the OW/OM, you KNOW you’re dealing with a liar. Buyer beware. You picked this, and if you get burned, no sympathy here.

    About the tragic baby of this mess – as an adoptive parent, I would consider that route – and I know that many out there have had a different experience, but I love my (adopted) son more than life. I can’t imagine an adoptive family being any more screwed up than these two…

  • I am going to try to approach the letter from a point of compassion:
    Just cut the shit.

    This man loves nothing. You are leaching onto drama for some reason. Apologize to the wife. Dump her husband. Find a therapist. Raise your baby. Do the right thing, whether it means you have to share custody without being in a sexual relationship with the father or have him sign off on his rights.

    I say this because as much as I felt a primal hatred for my husband’s mistress, I often wonder what sort of bullshit he fed someone so hungry.

    • “Apologize to the wife. Dump her husband. Find a therapist. Raise your baby.”

      There it is, short and sweet.

      Though it would also work to advise: “Dump the husband. Apologize to the wife. Apologize to the baby. Apologize to the therapist.”

    • I’ve often wondered the same thing about the long-term OW in my story. She must be a special kind of damaged to hang on that idiot for so long. She believes the lies, she imagined I wrote every NC letter he wrote, I don’t know what he told her about marrying me.

      Look, I swallowed some preposterous lies too. The difference is, I wised up. She’s been buying this shit for 20+ years.

      It’s special. And I think narcs can sniff the damage out and play those people, probably because the OW is narc-y herself and every bit as screwed up.

      • Same thoughts. 11+ years exH lived in the states, thousands of miles from his OW – what excuses did her give her?

        Did she ever verify? I mean a simple search of his name showed all sorts of “family” stuff that would have clued her in. I had no way to discover (and afterward, believe me I tried) the OW – but I can’t buy the “I didn’t know” game on their end.

        Turns out she did wise up – apparently she found a photo album of mine that somehow ended up out in cyber land, complete with dated family photos of the 2nd kid she didn’t know about – in my exH’s arms, with his wedding ring clearly visible. Snort. Must have sucked to be her.

        And yes, she’ seems somewhat narc-y too – when I did look at her FB, lots of glam photos of her in skimpy clothes from 10 years ago. When she posted a current picture once, it was pretty funny. Apparently OW skanks don’t age well 🙂

      • I know the other woman in my situation was hot mess. A self-centered hot mess who has no regard for the feelings or well-being of others. But then I know he is exploiting it and that is so wrong too.

        That is the beauty of this divorce. I don’t have to be a part of the circus anymore.

  • Totally agree with OW being self-absorbed and delusional. Long after I had washed my hands of my ex, the OW continued to stalk me online and in real life as though the “game” was still on. There was a huge amount of satisfaction for me in knowing she was wasting time and energy on this, because I’d moved on and also I’m really not that interesting LOL! I don’t think she could accept that she hadn’t “won” because after I kicked my ex to the curb he suddenly realised he didn’t want to be with her after all. Justice all round really.

  • I cannot reiterate enough -USE PROTECTION at the first sign of cheating!! I went back after the second D-day and MONTHS later after my cheater finally got off his ass to get tested, we discovered he had contracted HIV during his fun playtimes while I was traveling to visit sick family members abroad. I am so grateful to my friends who drilled into my head the importance of using protection with a known liar. Getting pregnant could be the least of your problems.

  • We can never forget that OW almost always are completely delusional and they romanticize everything. It’s clear that they place themselves on the same level as the betrayed spouse. In my case the latest OW was sending messages to my ex saying “I am glad I can be a bit of happiness in your life because you have been through so much”. What he was going “through” was his third (that I know of) affair. Poor diddums. She thought she was Florence fucking Nightingale.

    • Yeah, my ex’s Ow told one of my daughters that she had compassion for me cause she knew what I was going through , cause it happened to her too- her husband dumped her for another woman much younger than herself. See if you can follow that warped logic!

      • “Compassion” . . . wow. OW said that she felt bad, but they had to be together, they couldn’t help it.

        Then, she was mad, MAD, when she was told she wasn’t the first of my STBXH’s dalliances. She thought she was special. She didn’t mind the fact she was fucking my husband, but God forbid he’s fucking someone else too. Crazy bitches.

        • Yup, these ‘crazy bitches’ will say anything to justify their actions in the name of ‘ love.’ That’s not love in my books, that’s disordered!

  • Every case is different, my STBXH is been on and off with the OW for 3 years, she got pregnant and the kid is just 1 year old, I finally got sick of dancing and since a week ago I have NC, he just called once and didn’t pick up. 14 years of marriage and helping him to raise full time my stepdaughter (which he told her to keep the affair secret) and now I seen my Stepdaughter supporting the OW and the baby. Every case is different, now my STBXH is with the OW and my stepdaughter. One thing I’m grateful is that I didn’t have any kids from him.

  • ‘ I know it’s a paradox, but loads more adult responsibility given to a fuckwit does not make him more responsible. Thank you. —-‘
    Hello- have you met my X?
    I so fell into this way of thinking! How dumb was I? Three sons, house, jobs, of course all normal attachments of living a life, but poison to a Peter Pan narc. He amped up the pursuit of play-time (I mean heavy drinking, no job, women, and bar hanging) as our lives became too ‘responsible’ for his taste.
    Of course, now that I’m gone, he wants all of that back

  • When he says he loves her I believe him. He loves her like he loves his car. No more or less. The car is shiny and new and runs great, he loves his car. After he’s had the car for a while and he needs a new one, he dumps the old car, and gets a new one and falls in love with his new car. He love he felt for the old car is gone, just a memory.

    Actually, a car lasts longer than most relationships.

    • This analogy makes a lot of sense to what I’ve seen with my ex. I can’t understand it at all, like how someone could view relationships that way, but it matches up witht he choices I’ve observed my ex make.

  • Chump Lady,

    THANK YOU for having the guts to tell this OW in simple terms that she is simply a symptom of a much bigger problem. I despise OW who feel like they are the victims, despite the fact they cannot keep their legs closed and keep going back for more.

  • In my case, the OW was only 22 when we separated. My 50 year old got her pregnant and as she is a nothing, he went off to do the “right thing” by her. Imagine if he had ever done the right thing by me and my kids, just imagine. They wouldn’t have a step mum (as if) who isn’t much older than them or a half brother they might never ever meet but who will always be the kid who was more important than them. I didn’t even read CL response to this letter. Who cares about poor OW?!

  • From a letter from my cheater:
    “…For some reason I always seem to look for something better I know that sounds fucked up but we all have faults & that is what I work on every day… ”
    (yes, he was “working on it” with other women, most recently his ho-worker Mrs. Future Chump, she sweetly introduced herself in PJs at 8am from bed front of our child’s unpacked backpack after a ‘slumber party’ in his family’s basement unbeknownst to me explaining they had “talked about everything including the hookers” then acted surprised only when I told her the hookers happened WHILE we were married. God knows what hookers he had been seeing prior…And he had moved her in only 4 weeks after leaving me..
    Best of luck!

  • Ok. Touchy subject for me. My x just had his baby with the OW (IDK if I can call her that or not considering he claimed she did not know about me at first until he went to leave her to come back to me. Thats when she told him she was pregnant). Still, ignorance does not make your innocent. She had all the clues in the world that I was around.

    Anyways, shes pathetic. Congrats on getting a lifetime filled of drama, but thats what you like isnt it, Alexa? People that dont like drama dont create it over and over again. But your plan will backfire. He will bounce between you and his WIFE. You just gave him an unlisted amount of kibbles for the rest of his life. You were nothing special to him and you will be nothing special to him. Good job creating a child just to prop up a fucked up love affair. Your poor kid.

    Why the Fuck are you psychoanalyzing the married man? Psychoanalyze yourself! Promise you you arent going to like what you find if you are honest. HIS WIFE did nothing to you but you did everything to her. You should feel ashamed. At the end of the day you did what you could to get him and it still didnt work. Congrats you just gave your kid a part time dad (if you want to call him that).

    The child does not deserve this and this is what you choose for your child?? If you want to do right by your kid then do the morally right thing even though that does not seem to be your forte. I know it may be a difficult concept to you but you now have to consider OTHERS. Your child deserves better than to be a result of a lie. But if you keep it going with the MARRIED man that is all it will be. Legitimize your child’s life and start it with new and honest perspectives.

  • Alexa, this is what I think when I read your timeline. He loved his wife and was with her a long time. The commitment of marriage freaked him out and they separated (or maybe he cheated with someone else and she kicked him out). He got lonely and moved in with you on the rebound. That didn’t work out; he doesn’t like real life responsibilities. So he moved out on you. He really isn’t going to want a baby.

    He loves her more than he loves you. He married her. That’s what people do when they love someone and want to keep them. He went back to her. He has never add shown as much interest in you. You got him on the rebound and the only way you will get to keep him is if she dumps him. That’s not a good start or a way to keep a guy.

  • I won’t comment on the specifics of this letter, but just in general, I’d like to say:

    It’s really not very hard to refrain from interfering in other people’s marriages/cheating/being an OW. I do it all the time. Just live my life, and go about my business WITHOUT having relationships or sex with people who are already taken. It’s super easy, and takes ZERO effort on my part. I’m a youngish, attractive woman and still – I have never felt the need to help someone have an affair. No interest in it. When married men or men with girlfriends hit on/proposition me, here’s what I do: nothing. Not even if they are handsome (they usually aren’t). It’s super simple, and BAFFLES me that this doesn’t occur to some people.

    • The solution does seem rather obvious doesn’t it? I guess it is more difficult for those who do their thinking with their genitals though. 😉

  • Dear chumplady,
    I love your website. It is so funny. But it’s not reasonable to expect the other woman to raise her baby with no financial support from the father. Anyways, even if a man does sign off his parental rights, he still has to pay child support unless the baby is legally adopted by someone else. Otherwise every loser guy out there would sign off their rights if it was that easy. I had a baby with a married guy almost 2 years ago and he NEVER sees her, but I made sure to take him to court and make him pay child support. It’s preposterous to expect the man should be able to cheat on his wife and have a baby and then walk away with no consequences whatsoever. And you can’t just tell people to go have an abortion. How awful. Any woman who suggests that, why don’t you go have an abortion? Or abort your own unborn kids so they don’t have to grow up with the scum that is your cheating husband? It’s a terrible thing to suggest. Babies born of affairs have just as much right to life as anyone else. If the mother makes the proper changes in her life and doesn’t repeat her mistake there is no reason why the child should not be able to go on to have a perfectly nice life. I agree the husband should not be involved in the child’s life, after all he’s obviously a pig, but when you create a child it’s your duty to financially support the child.

  • I think OW should find a loving family to adopt the baby to. Spare him from being born into the role of ‘pawn’ in this sick world conditional love, self entitlement, manipulation that OW and MM seem to revel in. Poor baby. OW should dig in and find the maternal trait that might compell her to protect her child. Give him something she can’t possibly provide- a chance at a healthy happy life. Unconditional love.

  • The OW in my situation did get pregnant hoping that would validate the relationship. Who wants to be called the woman on the side, or side piece or any other derogatory name? Once she became pregnant, she named her son after my husband although we have a son from our marriage already named for him. But, I am guessing this move was to legitimize the child. To make my husband be closer to her.

  • Something a bit different about ow getting pregnant. After 18 months of multiple ow( he was a very special rock star), multiple std’s(which I was treated for quickly) last ow,who was also first, was unable to get pregnant because of disease( had to have a hysterectomy).
    This was my fault because I left him?

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