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Dear Chump Lady, Is it wrong to have feelings for my friend’s wife?

cakeDear Chump Lady,

I’m a married man and 51 years young, not too happy with my life at home at times. Last year I met a beautiful woman. She’s smart, funny, a great mother to her three kids and I must say super sexy, and who I totally fell in love with.

She is going though a divorce and was married to friend of mine for just about 25 years. We have been talking for a long time, she tells me stories about her life and I do the same. We do see each other in social gatherings and never alone (BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HER OUTSIDE OF OUR GROUP OF FRIENDS). Nothing has happened between us in a sexual manner. She is everything and more I’ve been looking for in a lady and a lady she is.

Why is it that such a good women needs to deal with a divorce? I hate that she is dealing with this and would do anything, yes anything, to make her happy and help her though this. Am I wrong for feeling this way about this woman? I cannot help but think about her and wish it could turn into something more. She tells me that can’t happen and I obey by her wishes.

I’m a good man, hard working, and a great provider to my family. I just can’t deal with some of the things that happen here at home. I give and give and do everything for my wife, but don’t feel appreciated for all I do…. How does one deal with this? My lady friend shows me appreciation more in the short time that I’ve know her then I’ve received from the women I’ve been with for more than 22 years. It’s frustrating and I can’t understand it. I try and try with conversation to let her know my frustration, but she just doesn’t get it.

Is it so wrong for me to have these feelings for such a wonderful woman who I deeply care for?

Need help, please advise.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Is it wrong to have feelings? No. We feel what we feel. It’s what we do about our feelings — through our actions and our consideration of others — that determines our character.

Don’t be a douchebag, Michael. You’re having an emotional affair with this woman, which is bad enough, don’t take it further. You wrote to me, Chump Lady, whose potty mouth and dim view of cheaters are on full display. So I can only assume you want me to bitchslap some sense into you.

How does one deal with this?

One gets a divorce, Mike. Or one commits to one’s marriage. There’s no middle path for decent people. The middle path is cake — the carbohydrate life force of cheaters. Having it both ways — the kibbles from your schmoopie, and the comforts (and lack of financial consequences) at home. You get to live in a fantasy world where you’re a shining knight comforting a Lady in Distress, who goes home to his dungeon of No Appreciation, where he works tirelessly to provide for his Ungrateful Kingdom.

“My wife doesn’t appreciate me” is the oldest cheater line in the book, Michael. You’ve trumped up some nice justifications there for your emotional affair with your friend’s soon-to-be-ex.

Speaking of your friend — doesn’t it skeeve you out in the least to be sharing emotional intimacies with your friend’s WIFE? You’re betraying your friend! But let me guess, she’s told you things about him that make him out to be a real jerk, and that’s why they’re divorcing. Maybe he is a jerk, Michael, maybe he’s not. But whatever is going on in their marriage is not made better by your emotional affair.

Here’s the thing with appreciation — it’s hard to appreciate someone when they’re diverting the best of themselves elsewhere.

You might argue it’s a chicken and egg thing — I had to divert my attentions to an affair because I wasn’t appreciated. But see it from the other side — your wife doesn’t appreciate you because you’re having an affair. Your head is turned by this other woman. Instead of appreciating her, and the life and children she gives you, you’re looking for an escape. It’s hard to appreciate people who don’t value or respect us.

Appreciate me! is what cheaters say to goad chumps into doing the pick me dance. Try harder to win me!

But what are they winning? A guy who is checked out with another woman. No one can compete with a fantasy, Michael. And this woman is a fantasy.

It’s easy for her to appreciate you — she doesn’t have to live with you. She’s got no real world entanglements with you. You’re kibbles to her. A shoulder to cry on, the attention she craves. And from what you say, she only wants you for kibbles. She doesn’t want to take it further. So, face it Michael, you’re good kibbles, but you aren’t GREAT kibbles. She’ll soon be a single mother with three kids, I’m sure she’ll have her pick of men in the dating world…(snort). Whatever her issues, (maybe she’s got enough sense to not get involved further with you?), she’s not interested.

But you still feel unappreciated. And she gets that. Okay, what do we do with that?

How bad IS it really, Michael? How badly do you want out of your marriage? Did it only seem unbearable once she came on the scene? Have you always felt unappreciated? Perhaps you’re truly in a dreadful marriage. I’ve been in a dreadful marriage and I know how it feels to have friends who see me for my better self. It was a wake-up call. A sense that, wow, there are people out there who really value me, and like those things I like about myself. I forgot who I was in this marriage.

This is valuable information, Michael. I’m not going to beat you up for those feelings. But you need to parse them out before you act. If your marriage is truly unloving and you’ve done everything you could to save it — which I don’t think you have Michael — it requires more than a couple lame conversations, and it requires ending your affair — then end your marriage honestly. That’s painful. It will hurt you, your wife, and your kids. But it will be honest, and you’ll hurt them a lot LESS than if you continue to cheat.

But something tells me that when faced with the reality of those painful consequences, you’ll decide it’s not that unbearable. I mean, why leave a marriage without the safety net of a new schmoopie love?

She is everything and more I’ve been looking for in a lady and a lady she is.

Good married men aren’t “looking for a lady,” Michael. And “ladies” don’t date married men. We call these people — cheaters.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Yes, Michael, she is a fantasy. Things will change if you have to live with her. Fact.

    CL nails it. Go cold turkey on this emotional affair. Make a decision – either work on your marriage honestly, or get a legal divorce. Don’t fence sit.

    • I’m confused. Is this the same Michael who’s serial cheating wife has him tomented, staying with her only so he can kiss his 2 sons good night?

      I can understand why he might go looking for comfort, but totally agree he needs to decide to end the marriage first.

      Just need clarity here….

      • Woops. need a delete button. Took me a while to read everything and realize I was mistaken. I hope this guy repents like he said he did. Stops harrassing the poor woman who is very vunerable right now.

  • Good married men aren’t “looking for a lady,” Michael. And “ladies” don’t date married men. We call these people — cheaters.

    Stated so perfectly!!!

  • Michael, I suggest you talk to a good therapist to figure yourself out. And here’s the big one; you need to decide if you want to leave your marriage if this woman you have “totally fallen in love with” does not want you and you would be happier alone, without your wife.

    Here’s the deal, this lady is ethical perhaps and won’t date you while you are married. OTH, she may just be using that excuse to keep you as a friend. The big thing is, if you are truly unhappy in your marriage, lining up a new woman first is wrong – whatever is making you unhappy is not going to be fixed by some new woman.

    If you decide to divorce you need to be on you own for some time before you jump into another relationship. Like CL says, it’s easy to love someone who is unattainable and whom you only see outside the humdrum of things. I have to run off to work so I’ll leave it there.

    • Plus, dude, you never see her alone (NOT a suggestion)–the point is–EVERYBODY looks nice in social settings. The 24-7 slog when you have a man cold and nothing goes right is going to be just as awful whether you think she sparkles or not. Your wife stays with your mancold–that can be a way to show love too, you little shit.

      Seriously, I am getting all triggery here with your skein of fuckupedness. Get a God-damn spine, man up, look in the fucking MIRROR you sonuvaBITCH!!!!!!!!!

            • This post gets ANY Decent person Triggery, Hon…
              I Reckon, Whether Married or Not..
              Anyone with a CONSCIENCE with a ” Friend ” and a Significant other of Any sort.

              • Oh yes… so well said CITS… How about Michael you put all that energy you are putting into this so called emotional affair into your marriage. Imagine how great your marriage would be. All that emotional effort you are putting towards her, direct towards your own family… This makes me so pissed!!

        • Yep– I’m sure this is how all of our cheaters started out. “My wife doesn’t pay enough attention to me… wah wah wah…”

          Would have been nice to have had a discussion about it so we could get counseling or a divorce.

          Michael, give this some thought: What will you be doing TO YOUR KIDS!!??!

          Yeah, cheaters never really think about them, or when they do, they comfort themselves with the bullshit “Kids are resilient” line.

          • Cheaters do not think about anyone except themselves and their dicks!!! They are so fucking selfish….they do not have a care in the world about how many lives they fuck up and the families they destroy!! As long as THEY are happy!!!

          • Moving on… I got that line too.. the kids will cope. They are resilient. Yeah, righto. What a load of cheater bullshit!

          • My poser also gave the “kids are resilient” line! Our kid was so resilient she wrote his sorry ass out of her life. He also did the you don’t appreciate me line too – and I am ashamed it got me to do the pick me dance. I didn’t realize at the time he had been cheating on me (this was 9 years ago). In fact I now think that he was giving me this line at the start of each cheating cycle without me knowing he was cheating. I am such a chump!!!

  • I’m a good man, hard working, and a great provider to my family.
    –that’s YOUR narrative.

    I just can’t deal with some of the things that happen here at home. I give and give and do everything for my wife, but don’t feel appreciated for all I do….
    –That’s on YOU. Get a reality check. Get a *GOOD* therapist. Do you have a bleak hole that needs serious filling? Do you need someone to say how proud of you they are because you put the dishes away? I can tell you–no pussy hole goes deep enough to fill that lack of self-esteem. Fix yourself and your marriage–AWAY from your fantasy lady. And if your marriage does not make it–fix your picker and smarten the hell up.

    • “—no pussy hole goes deep enough to fill that lack of self-esteem”.

      Wow. Truer words have never been ‘spoken’, CITS. If we had a ‘like’ button, I’d be hitting it 100 times!

      G.

      • I’m not done yet!!!!!

        Listen, IF you have enough testicles to fill a grape peeler, and IF you actually choose to work on you marriage, DO NOT start this off with you telling your wife it’s because you have feelings for another woman–that’s IF you aren’t the Flaming Turd of Satan’s Ass who wants us to feed you ideas on how to play out a pick me dance. Shut the fuck up about the other woman and your bullshit fantasies, and talk about the sinkhole you have in yourself–and then shut up and listen to your therapist, wife, and do what the hell they tell you, because your actions speak more than this bullshit you’re feeding yourself and us.

        • Wouldn’t you bet Michael’s wife and children are feeling an emotional absence from their puerile, checked-out father and husband? But they should just tolerate it, right? While he goes hole filling?

          • Oh yes, my ex felt unappreciated and that no one cared when he came home. Funny thing was he rarely came home to spend any decent time with us, instead carrying on a series of affairs – but there was no connection for him. Funny that.

            • Yep, same here Nord. Oh waaaaaaaahhhhh..I was such a horrible, uncaring bitch. I can’t even begin to imagine the sorrowful picture he’s painted to the OW. And when he did decide to come home? Did he spend any quality time with the kids and I? Hell no. He was so far checked out that he spent the entire time he was home glued to his cell phone, in case the love of his life texted or called. Like everyone has mentioned..the narratives that these 2 are telling each other are lies, lies and more lies. Oh woe is them..amazing how they make it through the day, living in such horrible conditions in their marriage. Uh huh. Sure. Care for some Skittles with your unicorn ride over the rainbow?

              • So agree. The lies for no reason, that’s what kills me, had no contact for 2 months was doing well. Had to contact him yesterday and he lied and blamed me for his not paying car insurance but had time to play golf & be with OW while I was in a car accident, couldn’t answer the phone that is glued to him! Time to take control.

          • Yep, that’s how it usually goes. Like my ex, who bleated about how he felt “no passion” for me, so had to find someone else. Maybe if he wasn’t FUCKING SO MANY SOMEONE ELSES, he would have felt more passion for me, you think?

            • Absolutely, Glad. How can a person compete with that mystery factor, the one they bait and switch you for so fast you can’t catch it in time to name? What happened to feeling cherished? Is that just over? Iyanla Fixed a marriage yesterday on Oprah. She said, “Till Death Us Do Part. But what does that mean? How much has to die? How bad does it have to get before you stand up and say you’ve had enough!” But she said it better. Cherished. Without even dancing. What a concept.

              • Me too, Northern. Like you can’t know. I get that we’re supposed to love ourselves and all that…but it sure would be nice to feel cherished.

    • Chump in the Sand! You win the internet today! Your outrage is spot on. The writer of the letter is looking for excuses and not seeing reality one bit. who wants to bet his wife is home taking care of life for everyone but after two decades doesn’t run to the door to smother him in kisses and blow jobs the second he comes home and that makes the special snowflake feel less than special. Grrr …

    • CITS you hit the nail on the head!

      My STBXH blame shifted by saying he felt like a flat mate just there to cook and pay the mortgage! Hell that was the only thing he did…I used to work full time, be the main bread winner, clean, raise our toddler, run around picking him up, feed him half the week etc etc. did I ever get shown any appreciation? NO! Did I complain about it? NO. I was trying to get our family ahead! Didn’t go and fuck someone else to feel appreciated!!

      These fuckers think the grass is always greener! It’s so not!!

      • ba ha ha! not until they have to mow the grass! then they realize its not green as they thought 😉

      • I got the same crap line – We love like roommates. Demonstrating that he has the intellectual agility of a small soap dish, he decided to find a slut “who appreciates him”. Yeah you low life pond scum, I’m the chump who did absolutely everything except earn the big bucks. I did all the cooking, cleaning, laundry (he used to complain I didn’t always fold the cloths fast enough and get them out of the way – never occurred to him that HE might get off his ass and help out with the laundry if it bugged him so damn much), the shopping, I took kid to school and picked up every day, took kid to ALL activities, he never lifted a finger to help out with kid, he couldn’t even be bothered to attend any school functions, parent teacher conferences, sports or music performances – that was all part of my job, I cared for the pets, I took care of the yard ( except the pool – the single thing he did get off his ass to do), I paid all the bills, I planned and packed for vacations – I was his fucking mommy.

        His complaint about me – I didn’t appreciate him and have enough sex. So pointed out to the dog turd that all he every wanted was to go directly to sex – holding hands (no public displays of affection), cuddling, anything I would call showing love and affection he was not capable of. For this poser LOVE=SEX. I knew he had trouble with “lower level” intimacy from the get go (possible Aspergers ) but I accepted it as part of the deal. He was European from a very traditional family – woman’s place is in the home. I initially made more money than him but over the years he slowly turned me into his mommy and chump that I am, I allowed it. What did I get for transforming myself over 23 years into what he viewed as the ideal parent – I got the prize of my douchebag husband having multiple affairs.

        Well, I wished up – it’s taken me
        9 months to finally get really PISSED about what happened. Thank God I got a great job and my daughter and I are getting out of Dodge in 5 weeks when school ends. He moved out immediately – but now we are leaving the state and starting fresh, beginning with my daughter and I changing our names back to maiden name.

  • Michael,
    I really doubt that you have done all you could so to fix your marriage. Have you gone to counseling? Have you read any good marriage books? When was the last time you showed any appreciation to your wife for all that she does for you? Stop playing the victim. You’re wife has been good for 22 years but suddenly now she’s not? Yeah, I don’t think so. You’re getting some ego boost off a slut who is into married men who also happened to be your friend’s wife. What a catch she is.

    I can see it now…you’re wife is at home taking care of you’re family. Cooking, cleaning, helping with homework and you go to work to “provide”. Stop looking down on your wife as though she is some useless troll…which if she is then why have stayed for so long? Because you didn’t know how bad it was? That’s because it wasn’t bad until you’re “lady” came along.

    I knew something was wrong in my marriage but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I went to counseling, I lost weight, I did all things I should have to make my marriage work. What did my exH do? Check out, ignore me, begin a double life and then reel me in with love gifts, and attention so we he dropped the bomb it was a huge explosion….yeah good guys don’t do that shit. Good guys don’t finally find issues after 22 years.

    • My ex actually told my kids that he didn’t realise how unhappy he was until I kicked him out. This after it was revealed he had been cheating for a minimum of close to a decade. Even today he will tell one of the kids that we BOTH screwed up the marriage. Funny, I thought I was doing everything to hold it together and he was out screwing bimbos.

      The writer of this letter needs a smack upside the head. Maybe then he’ll get some sense and realise what an absolute cliché he sounds like.

      • My ex told me when he left that he didn’t know he was unhappy with me until he got to know the other woman. I recently learned that it appears he is now telling people how unhappy he was with me. Maybe that’s what he believes now, but he sure seemed happy to me and our family and friends, before he left. Is it possible to be unhappy if you don’t know you are unhappy until you meet someone else and realize you were unhappy? It makes me think of the tree falling in a forest when no one is around to hear it thing, but it has had me wondering…

        • Sounds like a buncha hooey to me. I’m fairly certain I know whether or not I’m happy. If he was that disconnected from his emotions maybe he’ll find out he’s really gay next time. Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

          • I guess you bring up a good point: he is either a conscious or unconscious liar/history-re-writer, or he is completely emotionally disconnected/unaware. Neither option is good.

        • My ex always told me I was his best friend and he was happy in our marriage…. right up until dday when he suddenly changed the story to how he had been miserable practically since our wedding day, never should have married me, we had nothing in common, blah blah blah. He continued to deny the OW and that he was having sex with her, but said she was a very good friend he was “helping through some problems in her marriage” and he was “interested in a future with her.”

          I know he tells people now that he was always unhappy in the marriage — too bad he never mentioned that to me. These disordered types always rewrite history to make themselves out to be the good guy, the victim, the blameless one. It’s all bullshit.

  • CL, spot on as always.
    Michael: you are standing on the edge of a precipice, and what happens next is up to you.
    Please do not take the passive, lazy, cowardly route that my ex took.
    If you care about your children, and your spouse, then get into individual counseling, and possibly marital counseling as well. Your family deserves your full attention.

    And if you cannot commit to a real effort (counseling will take time and real soul searching), then get divorced and stay away from the friend’s wife, even after your divorce. She is simply a fantasy of a “better life.” News flash, unless your spouse has done something criminal, or is a abusive towards you, your life is not as bad as you think.

    My ex cheated, I accused him, he denied it (just infatuation) and we spent 8 months in marital counseling. I thought we were in good shape, and that ex could tell me when things bothered him, etc. Nope, 12 years later:
    1) tons of BS about how I would not do X, I would always do Y (uh, no, you never said anything)
    2) one EA and ANOTHER PA later, he leaves me for someone 12 year younger.
    They have a new life and new baby.
    I have two devastated children and get to spend another 10-15 years worried about developing cancer due to his unprotected sex.

    Do not be a stereotype.
    Be a real adult who understands that marriage, and life, is not always easy.
    You fell in love with your spouse, and can do it again.

    If you are too lazy, cowardly, or passive, then walk away now and provide more in child and spousal support than you a required to by law… It’s the least you can do since they did nothing wrong,

    Good luck.

  • Michael, you are on the fast track to being a lousy friend and an even worse husband.

    If you have not felt happy in your marriage – TELL YOUR WIFE and get some couples therapy and WORK HARD – REALLY HARD to save the 25 years of emotional equity you have built in your life together. I don’t think your wife looked too bad until you saw an available bright shiny possibility in your friend’s soon to be ex. And EWWWW – you are such a lousy person that you would throw a friendship with someone away to “comfort” the wife?? Think about how you would feel if that shoe was on the other foot, if you are capable.

    If you are truly unhappy and TRULY MAKE AN EFFORT to work on your relationship and it just doesn’t happen – then have the RESPECT and LOVE for the person who gave you a life, a family, a home and be HONEST when the time comes. But not honest as in – I’m hot for my friend’s wife – honest as in – we are just not moving on the same path any longer.

    In the meantime – I’m begging you – GO NO CONTACT with your friend’s wife and don’t even think about her or any future until you see where you are in your own life. You will reap a whirlwind of pain if you try to have your cake and eat it too. And your wife doesn’t deserve that. Your children don’t deserve that. Your friend and his estranged wife don’t deserve that. Hell – even YOU don’t deserve it (at this point.)

    But if you play the mega-douchebag – disrespect, devalue and callously cause pain to so many – then prepare to deal with KARMA – because you may not believe it -but it is a mega bitch and it will give you back exactly what you give out. So don’t be a douche – be a decent, honest man, for God’s sake.

    • Yes. Your friend will feel completely betrayed. Does his feelings matter to you at all? If so, then stop talking with his wife. They’re still married, remember?

      • Michael,
        I bet you don’t give a flying fuck about your friend anyways, but I’m going to tell you a story of a guy I know who had this kind of fantasy.

        That assmaster wanted to leave his wife for a woman who divorced her husband for–get this–CHEATING! And HE thought he had a chance with her, because in his fantasy life this other woman, who was a friend and nothing else, would welcome him with wide open arms, running through fields of daisies.

        The thing about fields of daisies in REAL life, is that there’s a lot of cow shit in them. I think you need to wake up and smell that shit–it’s sticking to your clothes.

    • Exactly Char! It takes two to tango here…put some effort into your marriage and communicate with your wife!!! She cannot fix what she does not know about!!

      Be a MAN!! Not a fucking coward that escapes with an affair!!

  • The ow co worker who has tainted my life was perfect. She listened, she got him, it was so easy and comfortable and he was able to feel good about himself when he was with her. Yawn. Duh, I was home w kids, crying about not knowing wtf my h was doing, financially fucked, while he wined and dined an obedient pup. Then the bubble burst. She just mirrored back what he said, she acted unprofessionally with all other men (detrimental to their work), she refused to let go, she needed the ego boost as much as he did. He realized that she was in fact manipulating him for her own shit. The fallout has brought me to my knees. not to mention her h and slew of kids.

    Look into the crystal ball of my life: the ea (pa?) has destroyed my h job, my teens hate him, I have to move, he still works with her, he had to confess to his mother, I had to be checked for stds, it goes on and on. The level of humiliation I have been thru is staggering – and not over! If my husband had put any effort into our marriage instead of her, things would be different. Or he could have said he wanted out. Regardless, he did not act with integrity or maturity and is ashamed. He didn’t keep me safe and secure, he brought a bomb into our lives. He detests her now because she represents the biggest fuck up of his life. Dude you’re in the fog. Be the man you want to be, do the right thing so you can respect yourself and maintain the respect of your family. Don’t be such a fucking baby, imagine your child reading icky emails between you and ms perfect and then calling you a fucking pussy at the top of his lungs and saying he hates you for hurting his mom and will never respect you again. Imagine having to knock on the door of your 18+ years family home because you don’t live there anymore and aren’t welcome even though you pay the mortgage. Is she worth that? You’re lucky, you can still do the right thing.

    Sorry for the potty mouth, big week for decisions and I need to stay focused –

  • What they say, Michael, and more… You’re in at least a bit of a fantasy world right now. Wanting what you want, wanting what you can’t have.

    Chocolate is worthy of cravings, but oh, doesn’t chocolate sound SO much better when you’re on a diet? Don’t you obsess over chocolate when you know you shouldn’t have it? And if you cheat on your diet, do you know what happens? Well, for one thing, you realize that while it was good, it wasn’t all that great, and on top of all the calories, you’re now the proud recipient of guilt for screwing up. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, because unlike a diet, where you can fairly easily get back on track, you can’t undo the damage of an affair. You can’t undo the hurt, you can’t regain respect and you can’t go back to “the way things were.”

    If I take you at your word and believe your interpretation of things, I think your lady friend is being unfair to lean on you so heavily. Maybe she needs to know that after her divorce she’ll still be attractive to men. Maybe she needs the ego boost to make it through, but I find it hard to believe that she couldn’t find someone more appropriate to lean on. She’s risking being a part of blowing up your marriage, and she knows that.

    Yet she refuses to date you or get physically involved. Why? Well, as immaturely inappropriate as she’s behaving by leaning on you and telling you things about your friend that ought to be private, consider that she’s got a better grasp of reality than you right now. She knows that even if you do things in the right order (you back off, divorce, find yourself free and THEN date and fall hopelessly in love), it’s still going to be a shit sandwich for everyone close to you to swallow. Even done in the right order, your families, especially your children, are going to feel betrayed.

    The only way this works, Michael, is if you give your marriage an honest shot. Tell this woman that you can’t be her confidant any longer, considering your feelings. If she’s as much a lady as you claim, she’ll honor that. If you still can’t get your marriage on track, then divorce your wife without dragging it out or her through the mud. Give yourself some breathing space, be on your own, get some counseling to find out how to fix your picker and what you can do to change your half of a relationship so that it doesn’t die a slow death. Most of all, realize that every relationship is going to go through periods where it’s not all infatuation and rainbows, and figure out how to live and deal with that. Then, maybe, perhaps, after several years passing for things to settle down (and dating others) you can re-explore a relationship with her. Anything shorter than that is going to cause everyone who knows both of you to think you were involved (and wouldn’t that be the truth?) before your marriages were over.

    Good luck.

    • One wake up call is that your friend is divorcing her, and no matter whose idea it was, no one would allow this that had “Ms Perfect” on the line who has his kids and financial & time investment. From “schmoopie to nightmare” happened to him & it can happen to you. Regardless of the reasons, he has experienced with her probably most of the complaints you have with your wife because this is the nature of long term relationships. They are like boats, if you don’t take care of them they sink. Turn on the bilge pumps Michael before your boat ends up at the bottom of the sea! Once you decide you want it you can pull it back up, it will never be the same. The crew will know you as Captain let the boat swerve off course and paid no attention to the inclement weather, and risked their lives and well being for a “mermaid.”

  • My husband undoubtedly told his OW the same thing, Michael: “My wife doesn’t appreciate me. I work hard and get nothing in return.”

    Funny, but I could have said the exact same thing about HIM.

    *Like when I was raising our 3 kids by myself 95% of the time, and had to deal with snarky remarks on the rare occasions I asked for help
    *Or doing ALL the housework/grocery shopping/laundry/bills/etc., because he couldn’t be bothered.
    *Or when his idea of “having people over” was when I did all the prep/cooking/cleanup while he held court with his guests.

    It was HARD WORK being married to that man, Michael, and he didn’t appreciate any of it, either. I got no kibbles, no diamonds, no gifts. I did get plenty of criticism, however. Oh – and I got cheated on, because apparently giving 1000% just wasn’t good enough.

    So you know what I think you should do, Michael, before you end your marriage? I think you should “walk a while in your wife’s moccasins” to see WHY she may not appreciate you as much as you think she should. Is she raising the kids by herself? Is she working full time both inside and outside the house? Is she shouldering enough for 5 people and doesn’t have even a teeny tiny bit left over for you?

    If that’s the case, ease her load. Do something unexpectedly nice. Make it your mission to make her laugh 2 or 3 times a day. My guess is, she’ll transform back into a very fun person, someone you want to be around.

    Because “the grass grows where you water it,” Michael. Water it at home – NOT at your friend’s house. You’ll be amazed by what you harvest…

    • Red, that sounds like my life, too, plus I paid for everything while he paid for nothing… sadly, I think it is too late for Michael because he is a narcissist and his actions ALREADY have shown that he has no respect for his wife and does not consider her his equal.

      I found out about my N’s cheating 10 months ago and he claimed all the same excuses Michael uses. Two months ago finding emails he had failed to delete (though he spent days deleting his files the day after I kicked him out), I discovered gushy seductive emails to a prior OW that I never even knew of, 5 years ago. A real “good provider” and good man, such as Michael here claims to be, and my ex claimed to be, would not EVEN be having those “feelings” if that’s what you call the need for narc kibbles.

      Or if they do, they would, as CL says, JUST BE HONEST and ask for a divorce.

    • Maybe we need a check list:

      Do you know the name of the pediatrician and orthodontist?
      Do you know the name of every coach and teacher?
      Do you know the name of the pieces your child is practicing for the recital?
      Do you know which child demands mustard on her sandwich and which child does not?
      Do you know how much lunch money is in the school lunch accounts for each child? Do you know how to put more money into the accounts?
      Do you know how much a gallon of milk costs?
      Do you know how many gallons of milk your household goes through each week?
      Do you know where the dog’s leash is kept?
      When did you last pick up the dog doo in the yard?
      Can you sort and fold the laundry and know whose clothes are whose (including socks and underwear)?
      Do you know what chores your child is assigned and what the penalty/reward is for doing them or not?
      When did you last buy a present for your child to take to a friend’s birthday party?
      When did you last make something for a potluck your family or child was attending?
      What size shoes do your kids wear?
      What foods are your children not allowed to have as snacks at their daycare?
      Where are the replacement bags for the vacuum cleaner?
      How many loads of laundry does your household need to have run each week?
      When did you last buy stamps for the household (or paper for the printer or batteries or light bulbs or toilet paper)?
      When did you last change the sheets on your bed? On a child’s bed?
      How many times have you cleaned a toilet this month? A shower?
      When did you last clean out the refrigerator?

      If you know the answers to all of these things and have answers you don’t need to explain or defend, then counseling may help your spouse understand why you feel unappreciated. If you don’t know the answers to them, then counseling may be enlightening to you on a different level.

      • Eilonwy, Those also make excellent interview questions for a New Mommy. I’ve been puzzled as to why some of these guys are so enamored with the OW as a “wonderful mother”. (they don’t say she has wonderful kids; those are her husbands kids) Well, they don’t know the answers to those questions, and they can’t bloody function in life without a woman who does. Mommy mommy mommy. Oh, yes, and appreciate me and respect me for being a helpless infant in a man’s body.

        Peter Pan Syndrome for sure, and I’m not convinced there’s not an Oedipal complex in the woodpile too, no matter how much it appears, like with my ex, that they hate their mother.

        • THIS. Mine fucked a mommy replacement. And hates his real, borderline/narc/alcoholic mother.

      • Eilonwy – love, love, LOVE this list!

        No wonder I’m always so exhausted… 😉

        XH couldn’t answer ANY of those questions when he lived with us. Those all fell under the category of “Red’s Job,” so he didn’t bother. He did, however, criticize when they weren’t done to his satisfaction.

        He does manage to keep his own place somewhat picked up. But he doesn’t like to dust, clean bathrooms, or put his sports equipment away – all of which is abundantly clear in his townhouse. But he can’t blame me for it now…. 😉

      • I’d ask “How many times have you cleaned a toilet since you’ve been married?” probably never in most cases…

  • Michael…
    GET REAL..
    Do you KNOW what a ” FRIEND ” Doesn’t DO?! KEEP Hanging Round your WIFE after he KNOWS he has FEELINGS for your ” Wife”….He STAYS the HELL AWAY from Her, outta RESPECT for You and Your MARRIAGE.

    You’re Having an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR ON YOUR WIFE.

    Your Wife Deserves a Better Husband,
    HER HUSBAND Deserves a BETTER Friend And Wife..* I Don’t give a Shit if he’s a ” Jerk”….. Odds Are That’s Just The Justification BOTH of You Give Eachother to DO what you KNOW is WRONG.

    BOTH of You NEED to DIVORCE… Let Your PARTNERS BE WITH PEOPLE WHO CAN BE TRUSTED. There’s Hardly a Way to Bounce back from a Betrayal of THIS Size.

    You Betray your ” FRIEND ” This Way, You’d BETRAY just About ANYONE This Way.

    You Better CHECK Yourself Before You WRECK Yourself…and Other Innocents that DON’T DESERVE THIS SHIT.

  • Michael,
    I agree with ChumpLady, you seem to be having a fantasy about this woman and of course it seems great as all fantasies are this way.

    My STBX of 13 years did exactly what you are doing to your wife now. He said he wanted to be “a better couple” while having an emotional affair with another woman. So 6 months after this “conversation” he leaves me for her just out of the blue and without truly committing to trying to be the couple that he wanted us to be. He treated me very poorly during that time actually. Emotionally distant, physically distant, would not be in the same room as me distant. Basically he decided all by himself that the OW was the “one woman” for him. And so he dumped me out of the blue like I was yesterday’s trash.

    Please don’t do this to your wife. Follow ChumpLady’s guidelines and truly commit to your marriage or end it but honestly and as a team because you have 3 children together. Surely, that means that your wife deserves respect in all of this?

    In my case, not only am I hurt to be going through a divorce but also I’m hurting in the manner that I was dumped. I felt that I was the kind of person that my STBX could have talked to if he wanted out of our marriage. We have two young children who are now growing up without their father because of this fantasy affair that turned into a real one.

    If you want that to be your legacy, go right ahead, but it’s better to do things right the first time.

    Here’s a quote from Theodore Roosevelt:

    “In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.” – Theodore Roosevelt

    • Very well stated, Nat. Screw those who can not recognize when they have it good. Loved the quote, and so relevant when applied to our lives. The best decision would be to be present in your marriage and do what is right. Nothing was what our exes did. Hey they like it that way, like Michael….
      HUGS-lots!- to those who are still in the trenches. I know we will all be better off without the crazy.
      To all those who are contemplating blowing up their marriages and betraying their spouses and children: That horrible decision will be your LEGACY to the world.

  • Dear Michael,

    You could in every respect be the jackass who betrayed me. He, too, is 51. He, too, “fell in love” with a married mother of three, who has been married over 22 years. He, too, knows her family. He was her late brother’s best friend back in high school. He, however, wasn’t married to me; he had just made commitments, emotional and financial, to a life “forever.” He walked out on all of that, complaining loudly that he wasn’t “appreciated,” while he spend the money I had put in his business account.

    First, about your “lady.” She’s a great mother but having an emotional affair with you. How great a mother can she be? A great mother doesn’t have an emotional affair. She deals with her marriage, either to improve it or end it; she deals with figuring out her emotional needs and how to get them without devastating other people, most particularly her children. In my case, this “great” mother of three has a huge close extended family. How will her mother and siblings feel when it comes out that she was cheating with the deceased brother’s friend from the memorial service onward? They will never feel the same about someone who has meaning for them because of their departed loved one. The kids have lost a family member already. The husband is being made a Chump, a fool who posts sweet “happy anniversary” notes on FB while his skank wife uses FB for her emotional (and no doubt sexual) affair. Yeah, she’s a GREAT mother.

    Meanwhile, what of your wife? Is SHE having a sexual or emotional affair? Or is she buckled down to raising the kids, working a job, keeping house? How appreciated can SHE feel if all your kibbles are going to the oh, so sexy, new and sparkly mother of three? How would you feel if she were saying to your friend what you are saying to his wife?

    You’re an asshole–someone who feels entitled to do whatever benefits you and who has no moral respect for other people. Your wife would be well rid of you, as I am well rid of the jackass. And as the husband of the jackasses’s special “married woman and great mother of three” would be well rid of her.

  • Michael,

    Let me ask you this…do you want to save your marraige? Because it sure seems to me that you’ve already checked out. Your level of disrespect for your wife is amazing; and your fawning over your “friend’s” wife is very immature.

    “Ladies” do not confide details of their personal life with married men. Period. They get a shrink; they talk to their girlfriends, pastor, or family. That’s a HUGE red flag. If she does that now, will you be comfortable with her talking that way about YOU to another “guy friend” in ten years? Didn’t think so.

    My exH, by his own admission, called me a “wonderful wife” – but he also confided all kinds of (untrue) shit about our family to his married female co-worker. Guess what? None of it was true, and he said what he needed to say to get into her pants. Are you willing to be THAT fool? Wake up. She’s using you, and you’re letting her, because you’re “unhappy” at home.

    Challenge for you – for the next 60 days, don’t talk to this “lady”. Instead, find one way every day to genuinely compliment your wife. And then, instead of just using words (that’s easy), once a day, DO something nice for her, without expecting ANYTHING in return. Take out the garbage before it overflows. Do homework with your kids. Run an errand for her. Bring her flowers. Expect NOTHING in return. Oh, and read “Love Languages” and use it to better love YOUR WIFE, not another woman.

    Then maybe you won’t destroy your family. I’m about your age, and it dawned on me this year, that I will NEVER have the experience of retiring someday with the father of OUR children, and watching our grandchildren grow up together. That’s huge. That, and a million other hurts you will inflict on your kids if you don’t fight for their family. You can still be the hero here. Man up and do the right thing. Fight FOR your family.

    • “Ladies” do not confide details of their personal life with married men. Period.”

      This!

      (CL, you must find a way to add a “like” button!!)

    • I love this reply so much, RedifiningMe. That is good advice.

      Michael–go get some counseling to work through some mid-life depression and disappointment you’re having.

      As stated, you CAN be the hero in your own life. It won’t happen if you destroy your family. Find your values and stick to them. Ride this distraction out. Get away from this woman (and there are always others, as well–she’s not special) who would help you make the biggest, most regrettable mistake of your LIFE. If you think you feel crappy now, imagine seeing the pain you caused in your wife and children’s eyes. Imagine going to bed every night wondering how you could have sunk so low? What happens when the shine wears off this new thing, when the fantasy woman rolls her eyes at you because she actually does NOT love picking your socks up off the floor. Imagine dividing all your assets up in half–what happens to the fantasy, then? Imagine looking your friend in the eyes. How much of a man will you feel like then?

      Don’t go down that path. Please go out of your way to NOT exchange ego kibbles with this dangerous woman. Believe us when we say it’s not worth it. I swear that in a few short years you will look back and marvel at what you almost lost–if you do it right. Alternatively, you will look back, mortified and ashamed.

  • You are not a good man at all.

    You wonder how a woman like this has to go through a divorce? Wow you jerk, look what you are doing to your own marriage.

    Go to hell.

  • Michael

    You wrote this letter to CL because you know on some level you are being a complete jackass and want someone to tell you to stop being a complete jackass…so here it is…wait for it…you are being a complete jackass and you need to stop it now!

    Cletus

  • Don’t be a douchebag, Michael. You’re having an emotional affair with this woman, which is bad enough, don’t take it further. You wrote to me, Chump Lady, whose potty mouth and dim view of cheaters are on full display. So I can only assume you want me to bitchslap some sense into you.

    THIS ^^^^^^ AND NO I AM NOT THAT MICHAEL MAYBE I WISH I COULD ADD MY LAST NAME.

  • Hey Michael, YOU sound just like my EX. You know he felt the same way about his RB partner and guess what. After a marriage of 20 gyears and three kids, four family deaths and a tragic accident LIFE was too hard for him. So HE left. GOOD RIDDANCE. MICHAEL, let me guess your priorities have been everything but your FAMILY lately or for a long time. Work, play, and all that time “comforting” and sharing intimacies with that new “lady”. My advice. GO BE THAT ASS, you are thinking with your DICK, and your WIFE deserves BETTER. YOUR WIFE DESERVES BETTER. So do your children. You know Showing up in your MARRIAGE requires more than just opening the door and saying, “Honey, I’M home!”

    • “Showing up in your MARRIAGE requires more than just opening the door and saying, “Honey, I’M home!””

      THIS!!! Where is the Like times One Million button?

  • Chinese proverb, “It is comparison that makes a man miserable.”

    Is your ego so inflated Michael that you either;
    1) Can’t imagine that your spouse is comparing YOU to another man?
    Or,
    2) You know without a doubt that she would never act on it and betray her family and the commitments she made?
    Don’t suck Michael, be an unmiserable man.

  • Good married men aren’t “looking for a lady,” Michael. And “ladies” don’t date married men. We call these people — cheaters.

    ^^ and this.

    • Good single men don’t hound dog wives/lovers/girlfriends of their “friends”.

      You don’t even get to the fact that he’s married and has a family before taking that hard left turn into Sleazeville.

  • Oh, and a “great provider” for the family provides more than a paycheck: he provides love, honesty, fidelity, a foundation of integrity, his time and attention, his patience, his commitment, his fundamental respect and concern for the needs of his wife and each of his children. He provides kindness on a day-to-day basis. And he provides an example for his children of how to love a partner and work on a marriage. So you are not a great provider, since you have given away your love and attention to another. If you seek out another woman at social events, you are making a fool of your wife, your children’s mother, her husband and her children, in public. Consistently. You are taking time from your So what you provide is betrayal and pain. It just hasn’t come out in the open yet. If you listened to your wife like you listen to this woman who is, in fact, helping your deprive your wife and children of your love and attention, your marriage would likely be more satisfying. But I suspect you are just another jackass looking to justify your “special” feelings for a woman whose disrespect for her own husband is epic.

    • “”””Oh, and a “great provider” for the family provides more than a paycheck: he provides love, honesty, fidelity, a foundation of integrity, his time and attention, his patience, his commitment, his fundamental respect and concern for the needs of his wife and each of his children. He provides kindness on a day-to-day basis. And he provides an example for his children of how to love a partner and work on a marriage. So you are not a great provider, since you have given away your love and attention to another.””””””

      This Michael, all day long if you are doing this and your wife is still distant and “mean” then you should man the fuck up, get a divorce and then go with your “lady”. True ladies don’t want to fuck over ANYONE else’s marriage. No matter how fucking sad you are in it. A real “lady” wouldn’t touch you with a ten foot pole, much less have ANY conversations with you. And really she can’t find somebody who is not married and NOT her husbands friend in your town……… Come on now your just crying a fucking river and nobody including yourself is buying it, as you decided to write on an anti-cheating blog!!!

  • Michael,

    You are having an emotional affair. Your affair is rooted in your flailing E-G-O; an ego that is control of YOU, and not the other way around, as it SHOULD be.

    You started to feel an attraction toward this woman, and you’ve allowed that attraction to take over your rational self. You are in the ‘affair fog’, and it will be difficult for you to be objective about your marriage, your wife, yourself and this other woman unless you first DITCH THE BITCH. Even if you DO get her out of your life, it will be difficult to get her out of your head without the aid of a competent therapist.

    If you really want to know if you’re doing something wrong, ask yourself how you would feel if you knew that your WIFE was in love with a male friend of yours. No? You WOULDN’T like it?

    If you know you wouldn’t like it, you have your answer.

    G.

    • Michael,

      This lady is telling you firmly and politely (which is good because I’m not in a gentle head space right now). If you can’t listen to me because of my potty-mouth, then listen to what Gypsy is telling you.

    • No such thing as “affair fog”. That’s Chump hopium.

      If there’s “affair fog”, then “chocolate chip cookie fog” is what happens when you eat a whole plate of chocolate chip cookies when you are supposed to be on a diet.

      • In case it wasn’t clear… “I ate a plate of chocolate chip cookies because I was in a fog” is a lame excuse. You ate all the cookies because you wanted cookies, and whether or not anybody else wanted them was irrelevant, and whether or not eating 5000+ calories as a snack was wise in the long run was irrelevant.

  • Hey guys, this idiot is on this site as it excites him to talk about his shitty fantasy life and feels safe to listen to all us chumps giving him ‘sound’ advice. This fuckhead is already knee deep in shit and deliciously squirming with anticipation … He ain’t gonna call this off so let’s call it what it is …
    Michael… You are a weasel and she is a skank
    Thank You 🙂

    • Yeah, he already drank the kool-aid. “I’m not appreciated/respected at home” is the mating call of the cheating narc.

    • In fairness, she may not be a skank–she’s not doing anything to do the come-hither. For all we know, she could be divorcing because she’s a chump like us.

      Noooooo, this is all about Michael–which I believe it’s like in real life with Michael.

      • “Noooooo, this is all about Michael–which I believe it’s like in real life with Michael.”

        Oooh CITS – that is just awesome! Respect! You described my marriage, too.

    • Yes, what WhereisMia said. Rewriting marital history, anyone? Yeah. Funny how those pathetic fantasies get into the way of REAL LIFE.

  • What gets me about these cheaters like Michael, is that they really show their narc colors as they go on and on and on about their lack of fulfillment, how they aren’t appreciated, and they are a really good person; while their Chump is dutifully and loyally faithful to them in the background, forsaking all others for them, and missing out on similar opportunities to date or have emotional affairs of their own.

    That’s what makes them cake eaters and assholes. They really don’t consider the Chump’s life to be of any consequence whatsoever other than to keep supplying them with whatever it is they are getting out of the Chump.

    Michael, please do your wife a favor and tell her that you have been unfaithful to her, even if you didn’t “do” anything with OW. Your wife deserves to be told the truth and treated as a fully equal partner worthy of respect.

  • “A lady”? Maybe your wife isn’t a a lady; she’s a woman, not some bullshit figment of your imagination of a genteel bygone era. You know, the woman who lost her figure carrying your kids, who works her ass off making sure your family is cared for, who buys the groceries, cooks the dinner AND cleans up afterwards. The one who makes sure the school work is done, the kids have clean clothes, and the dog has its shots. The one who would love some expression of appreciation from you, but doesn’t get it because you’re to busy fantasizing (and yes, it is nothing more than a fantasy) about some “lady”.

    When was the last time you sent your wife flowers for no reason? When is the last time you asked her how she was, or expressed any sort of gratitude for what she does every single day to keep your kids safe, your house clean, your life comfortable? Sounds to me that you have checked out of your marriage and are blaming your wife for YOUR lack of commitment. Perhaps if she felt that you had on ounce of appreciation for her she would respond in kind.

    Real women are not fantasies; we are people who have tried to honor that whole “love and cherish” thing during good times and bad. Perhaps if you weren’t so busy idealizing a person you really don’t even know, you might recognize that that you have the love of a good woman, who has been by your side through it all – and who deserves more than you are giving her right now!

    And by the way, real marriages to real women take work and lots of it. So if you are the great guy you claim to be, get to getting and start working on your marriage.

    • Everything about your post is spot on, Louise. There is no way in heaven or hell that we can compete with the perfect sparkly OW/OM. We are mired in everyday life, taking care of all the “unpretty” stuff. You know, normal things that couples deal with. But no matter how hard we work, it’s never enough. In the minds of the cheaters, we are lumps of coal. The OW/OM is the sparkling diamond that we can never be. These cheaters take off when they decide life is just too damn hard for them; that they are trapped with that evil woman that many years ago they thought was wonderful. That evil, horrendous woman who bore their children; and in most cases, gave up many parts of themselves to their marriage and family. We will never be able to match the shine of the AF. It’s so heartbreaking to me, knowing that in their minds, we are NOT GOOD ENOUGH. This post today has really made me cry. This Friday will be my 4 month DDay anniversary. And it’s devastating to realize that nothing we ever did lived up to the expectations of the cheater. But their “true love” is everything we never were and more. As I look back over the last 26 years we spent together, it makes me sick to realize all that we’ve been through; the life events we’ve experienced; having children together..all of it was for naught. I will always question how someone can do this to another person. Especially a person you have spent your lifetime with.

      • I’m so sorry. Wednesday will be my 4 month dday anniversary, after 12 mos of him screwing with my head. And 27 years together. But it wasn’t for naught. We were true to our vows and to ourselves and the children are very much a product of love. I have days like you’re having. Let’s prop each other up, we’re worth a lot. Be strong and know you’re not alone. Hugs to you.

        • “We were true to our vows and to ourselves” and to our marriages, “and the children are very much a product of love.” THIS. I can remember the day each child was conceived. They bring so much love into our lives, not to say there weren’t days….One of my greatest wishes for all three, is for them to never know the heartache my ex has brought into my life. I want all three to marry somebody who actually means those vows.

      • Sandy, Do not feel that you are replaceable. Only YOU and that asswipe could produce the kids that you have. Good, bad or ugly it is what it is. Our kids make all this “shit” bearable. and do not get me wrong sometimes those same cherished kids can make your life miserable!!!!!! but in the end this world is a better place for you having birthed those kids. We might not see it but somewhere down the line those kids are important !!!!!

      • Sandy, so beautifully written.

        It is mind bending. That we felt so deeply and gave of ourselves, but that we were replaceable.

  • What makes me sad for Michael’s wife and kids, and his friend and those kids, is that nothing we say will register on Michael and his “lady” . They’ve already demonstrated that they are entitled to what they want–kibbles for the lady, and kibbles and “special love” for Michael. She is everything he has been looking for, after all! And who knew he was looking, him being married and all. In language, they give themselves away, every time. The jackass wrote me that I didn’t have “actual proof” of his affair with his married, mother of three, damsel in distress. There you go. I have proof (FB page with no posts and one friend, run through his mobile) but not ACTUAL proof, which is the point of cheating on FB…they all give themselves away when they write. There’s no hope for this guy. Just send good thoughts to the poor woman married to him.

  • Michael, all the observations and advice here are what you know you need to do, which is why you came here to hear it. The moral compass only points one way. If you choose the other way and engage in an affair, love will NOT conquer all. The gut instinct that brought you to Chump Nation is the best part of you. Ignore it, and life will have to teach you the error through experience. Karma is real, and it really is a bitch. And completely just. I know from experience and appreciate the lessons karma has taught me. This is your crossroads, Michael, believe it, and choose wisely.

    • Well come on Dodged Bullet, please write to Chump Lady and give us your story.

      We like to hear that there are good guys out there. The temptation isn’t the issue (in order to not be attracted to others, you would have to not have a pulse).

      The issue is the entitlement.

      Please write in, DB.

  • Ps it’s 1am in Australia and my blood is boiling after reading that dickheads letter and I can’t sleep ! Thanks creep !

    • WhereisMia … it is 1.23 am in Melbourne now and I am having a cup of tea and reading all the wise comments. It don’t get angry anymore because it is not worth it. Sometimes sad because a 44 year history has been lost and you can never replace it. If only ……. .

  • Michael; I remember when I first found out about my husband’s affair, he was telling me “why don’t you go out and have an affair or fling so you can see how great it is?” I told him forget about doing it to you!!~ I wouldn’t do it to myself!! No piece of ass, compliment or gift(s) could make up for the piece of crap I would feel like or the lack of respect I would have for myself going forward if I would betray someone I professed to love and honor for cheap thrills or a ego feeding experience. If you are half a man this will be your biggest regret in your future & what you gave up for it will shock and devastate YOU not to mention your collective family. Since your thoughts are selfish, maybe appealing to this angle of thought will help. AND wake up, she doesn’t even WANT to go forward with a relationship, you are using each other for kibbles. I would be very wary also of going out to look for this elsewhere, as people usually don’t find things they are not (at least subconsciously) looking for. The world is full of pussy’s and dicks looking for validation, this is nothing special.

    • THIS…
      And they WANT you to SINK To THEIR Fucking LEVEL to make it OK !!!!!
      Become UGLY as ME to Make ME FEEL Better
      UGH.
      FUCKING ASSHOLES !!!!!!!!

  • Quote: “Why is it that such a good women needs to deal with a divorce? I hate that she is dealing with this and would do anything, yes anything, to make her happy and help her though this…..”

    You should be saying these exact words about your own wife:
    If you had the same attitude about your own marriage and your own wife, you wouldn’t even be here asking this question. Because you’d have been too busy taking care of your OWN business….as opposed to being recruited into jousting contests that will ultimately see you un-horsed and dishonored.

    Your “empathy” needs to be directed toward the proper people…your wife and your children …you know, those people to whom you made a PRIOR commitment to honor, cherish and PROTECT?

    Matter of fact, I don’t believe you are experiencing “empathy.” I believe you are experiencing “lust-crazed dementia”…a condition where your ego and your loins have led you to lose sight of anything except your own preferences.

    Notice I used the word “preferences” and not the word “needs.” That was a deliberate choice because about 95% of what we erroneously believe we “need” in life is really just “preferences”…and preferences are too often ephemeral and lead us down dead end alleys.

    There are no worse lies than the ones we tell ourselves:
    And one of the most destructive of lies is, “It’s hopeless.” If you don’t like how things are at home, then you need to man-up and speak up, before you give up. Stop running from conflict and learn how to resolve it in a win-win way. This will likely require professional assistance. Give an objective professional a chance to help you sort out which of your marital concerns are legitimate and which ones are a result of self-delusion.

    Nothing of great value is ever easily attained nor is it easily kept:
    Your wife has invested an equal chunk of her life in you as you have in her. I doubt she put a gun to your head and forced you to marry her. Give her a FAIR chance to honestly address your concerns, and do it in a solution-focused environment. Don’t run for the hills when the going gets tough….as it will. This is called “courage.” Courage is not the state of being fearless; courage is fearing something and doing it anyway. Do you have courage?

    Bottom line:
    What you are asking here is for us to condone your dumping of your own integrity. We won’t do that because we understand that a man without integrity is NOT a man.

    • THIS ! ! !
      They ALWAYS have Such CONCERN for the NEW Piece of ASS…
      What About The One Who Committed YEARS of EVERYTHING SHE HAD and WAS for Him and HER EVERYTHING ?!
      UGH..Like Giving Away A Million Dollars for 50 CENTs.

      • “They ALWAYS have Such CONCERN for the NEW Piece of ASS…
        What About The One Who Committed YEARS of EVERYTHING SHE HAD and WAS for Him and HER EVERYTHING ?!”
        Agreed! On Dday, my STBX was pissed as hell that I had the audacity to confront the OW. He was worried about HER feelings; HER reaction. Didn’t give a flying fuck about me, and the devastation I was experiencing. He wanted to “Talk to her first”. The texts he sent me were unbelievable. Angry at me..someone he spent 26 years with. Worried about here..someone he spent 3 years with. Turns out it didn’t matter anyway, because on Dday he left my daughter and I for her.

        • Awww Sandy, I know what you are talking about. my ex came to the house 3 days later and said ” I went and told ow that I was gonna break it off with her because He did NOT want what happened to him to happen to her” he was referring to my kids not wanting to talk to him…… Really was I supposed to say, Damn you are some kinda man….. Let me dance some more cause I Just Cannot Live Without You!!!!!! These people are screwed up on levels that we will never understand. CL has it right, there is no untangling of the skein!!!!! So why do we need to try to do just that!!!! I pray that we will just be able to LET IT GO!!!! because in the end those damn fucks ARE NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!!

    • “. . . a man without integrity is NOT a man.”

      Amen.

      notyou, your wisdom is profound and your commentary is always spot on.

    • notyou, you are a font of wisdom. I always look forward to reading your insightful comments. Bravo yet again!

  • Ooh, I love this post! We should have more posts from pre-cheaters. So, Michael, everyone is hating on you because our lives/hearts/souls have been destroyed in such an incredible way that we will never be the same again. You can’t imagine the devestation you will cause by taking your affair sexual. There are not words strong enough to describe the pain most of us are in. That aside- here’s my attempt at some real advice. There’s a semi-silly 1980s book called How to Keep Your Man Monogamous. I read it and laughed at some of it but thought at least part of it was solid advice. Here was the advice given to someone actually considering cheating: tell your spouse. Sit down and tell your spouse “I have super strong feelings for this person. I would even say I have fallen in love with them. They give me this, this, and this, which I don’t feel I get from you. Nothing has happened yet. Where do we go from here?” Then, get divorced or work it out. Be real. Take control of reality. Chances are, your wife is not as bad as you say. Chances are, you’re not fulfilling a lot of her needs. If you water your garden, it grows. If you neglect your garden and it doesn’t look that great anymore, well, that’s partly your fault. Be honest and real. You’re so deeply into it at this point you probably won’t. But if you go ahead with the affair, you will destroy your wife in a way that is almost worse than if you actually killed her. You will damage your children forever. That’s the reality of unfaithfulness.

    • I don’t see the need to fill the wife on on that he has feelings for another – if he simply gets out respectfully or choooses to do the work to repair the marriage – no need to create further hurt. It’s hard enough hearing your partner no longer wants to be married, why twist the knife in if it doesn’t need to be.

      • I know what you mean, but don’t you think he’s caught in the game? Like, nothing is real to him at this point. He’s all whining he’s tried and tried to talk to her and she won’t listen. Maybe there’s a little truth in that. But, has he ACTUALLY tried talking to her? With this level of clarity? Sometimes I think they really don’t think their affairs happen in the real world. They don’t seem to think it will affect anything in their real lives.

          • Telling the truth pours the cold water of reality over the FANTASY.

            Most affairs are driven by fantasy. Truth kills that.

            • I don’t mean he shouldn’t ever tell her–but I think if he begins right off with it, it’s an invite to put him in the centre of attention. I’m thinking of it as something to bring up in therapy. I think he should put the marriage at the centre of his therapy.

              If it were more than his fantasies–meeting her alone, tons of email/texts–you know, she’s an active participant–I’d say no, fess up right away.

  • He’s already in an emotional affair. already disrepsecting the wife amd his friend, already broken his commitment to love his wife and be faithful. I’m not convinced that they aren’t having sex. They always say that because people think having sex is the big betrayal. I say that refusing to recognize that his wife is a person who will be devastated by the emotional affair. I think most married people have times when they feel unappreciated and think someone else would appreciate them more; the difference is that most of us stop before disrespecting out spouses by trashing them to another person who isn’t a therapist or counselor trying to help, but instead a married mother or father of three trashing her or hismown spouse.

    • I don’t know what’s wrong with me today–I can’t finish a sentence. I was trying to say that the worst betrayal is treating a spouse/partner as if they don’t exist, refusing to recognize the person as a person. That’s betrayal at the soul level. It’s all bad. And sex is what we can focus on as a physical act that can be seen, that society mostly frowns on.

      • “I was trying to say that the worst betrayal is treating a spouse/partner as if they don’t exist, refusing to recognize the person as a person. That’s betrayal at the soul level. It’s all bad. And sex is what we can focus on as a physical act that can be seen, that society mostly frowns on.”

        Totally agree with you, LaJ. I’m not saying the sexual betrayal isn’t excruciating, but for me, it’s the emotional betrayal that hurts the worst. It’s the negation of me as a person. Like you said, ‘betrayal at the soul level.’ Thanks for this.

        • The other problems with taking to sexual level is diseases, exposing your partner to untold gazillions of other sexual partners when they are trusting you to not use “protection,” unexpected (or expected) babies, which regardless if this happens, this risk was taken, and most likely sharing “facts” about you in the bedroom & elsewhere that are at least unflattering & most likely not true. I am sorry, but I will never believe that anaffair that goes on for more than one meeting does not have emotional components to it. The emotions are building before the PA. Also, all the things he/she said to you in bed have now been said to someone else WHILE THEY WERE WITH YOU and now have little or no meaning, they are just what he uses to get ANY woman excited to be with him. And of course as CL says no affair would be complete without the “poor sausage” stories that can net them some extra attention, sex acts, etc. Bottom line, you are no longer special in any way shape or form. And so right, “betrayal at a SOUL level.”

          • No question that the possibility of disease and pregnancy are terrible comsequences of sexual affairs, as well as the excruciating pain of the porno movie that plays in a Chump’s head upon discovery that an affair is physical. It’s all awful–the betrayal,, the disrespect, the lying, the stupid excuses, the gaslighting, the deliberate distancing and trashing of a partner’s character to justify the cheating.

      • I’m with Lovedajackass, I suspect Michael has done plenty more than just talking – oral sex, intercourse, who actually cares. He is cheating on his poor wife and kids. He has obviously checked out of his relationship and family life. He has therefore broken his marriage vows. He is a douche bag. The woman he is cheating with is a douchebag. These are not people I would ever be friends with. The disrespect he has already shown to his wife and kids and his OW has shown to her husband and kids is disgusting. All this ass is offering up is pathetic excuses to justify emotionally cruel actions that will have devastating consequences. I wish we could tell his wife and the OW husband to dump their asses and join us for support.

        The real question toe is why would this jerk wrote such a stupid letter to CL. He couldn’t possibly believe he would get a shred of support! What is his real motive?

        • Maybe it really was a fake- or a troll? Except he wrote CL that he’d taken our extreme bitch slapping to heart and and decided not to pursue Wonder Woman?

  • We have been talking for a long time …

    Have you told your … ahem “friend” about this? Perhaps shared the conversation topics?

    Be honest. There’s been a lot of sneaking around “for a long time”, I bet.

    What did Warren Buffett say about integrity?

    Are you “willing to have any contemplated act appear the next day on the front page of their local paper – to be read by your spouse, children and friends – with the reporting done by an informed and critical reporter” ?

    Somehow I think the Integrity Ship sailed a while back, so how do you regain your integrity?

  • Michael, if you’re serious about your marriage, you need to get to counseling to work on the problems. You also need to cut off contact with this woman.

    I want to stress that this woman is not a lady. Being a lady or a good person is not just about sex. Having an emotional affair is still cheating people, it’s still dishonest. Don’t fool yourself that she’s good and pure just because you haven’t had sex.

    The good news is that if you haven’t crossed the line, you may still be able to save the real thing with your wife, if you dump this woman now and dedicate yourself to your wife.

    I don’t see divorcing your wife as the honorable thing to do here. First, you’ve already cheated emotionally. Leaving her for the woman you talk to all the time but haven’t slept with isn’t honorable. The honorable thing to do is to dump the emotional affair and get honest with yourself and get some counseling that is truly aimed at working on your marriage, not an excuse to swap wives.

    As others have said, do not believe that you know this woman. Your wife and the life you have with her are real. Sympathetic conversations are easy when you don’t have to do anything for each other or make any sacrifices.

  • I’m not sure if anything we say will make a difference to Michael. I don’t think he sought out Chumplady because he was looking for someone to stop him (though at some level he knows it’s wrong); I think he was looking for someone to give him the moral go-ahead, because this is different “different”–he’s a “good” man; she’s a “lady”, a “wonderful” woman, a “great” mother, not some “cheap whore,” and he deserves to be “happy.” After all, if Chumplady gives the green light, then he can pursue this “lady” with a free conscience.

    • Yep. That’s what’s up here. And not one nice word about the woman he’s cheating out of a real marriage–she’s nothing to him, literally.

      • i think irony is lost on this guy, as he fails to see the his own wife ought to be leaving him. Maybe he thinks it’s “be a cheater, gain a life'” even if it’s someone else’s.

  • P.S. – about the question – is it wrong to have feelings for a friends’ spouse? Everybody does sometimes.

    What’s wrong is spending lots of time talking to each other and sympathizing with each other, especially when you know you have these feelings. Comparing your wife to her is a sign that you’re doing something wrong.

    • Yes, what you pay attention to, what you feed, grows stronger. He’s fed his EA with his schmoopie. And preparing a shit sandwich for the wife and kids to share. He’s a “great provider.”

  • Michael, I stopped reading after you said you were “51 years young.” That phrase told me pretty much everything I need to know about you and your situation.

    Here’s a tip: Neverland is not a real place, and this chick is not your Wendy. Do yourself and your family a favour and grow the hell up already.

    Sheesh.

    • I think you have captured Micheal’s essence; a Peter Pan wanna be, tired of the “grind” of a real marriage. He’s this young, cool dude, chained to a drudge. Well, let me call the bullshit card on that one. He’s a middle aged man, deluding himself into believing he still looks 35, and fooling only one person-himself.

      • Yea..The 51 Years “Young”
        ASSHOLE.. You’re MORE than HALFWAY to THE GRAVE…

        Stop ACTING LIKE A LIL PUNK, PECKERWOOD..and ACT your Fucking AGE…with some INTEGRITY.

        you Don’t WRECK LIVES over a ” Crush ” DUMBSHIT.
        At YOUR AGE, NONE of US should HAVE to be TELLING you To GROW UP !!! You HAVE A WIFE AND KIDS..It’s WELL PAST TIME for THAT.

      • Yeah, well, you read further than I did before having the alarm bells go. The title says it all–and seriously, you’d think you’re old enough to know that we all get feelings, it’s what you do with them that matters.

        I wish people like that could spend their lives with their bodies reflecting themselves–so if you’re brain is still stuck in high school, be all pimply, awkward, voice-breaking and too young for contact lenses.

    • Peter Pan by Patty Griffin is a song I played over and over and over again. Who are these people?! FMT you are right, ‘grow the fuck up!’

  • Michael: You have to force yourself to do the right thing. There’s no two ways about it. You’re standing at a crossroads. If you go down this path, the relationship will almost certainly move from emotional affair status to a physical affair. You need to stop talking to this woman (if she’s really that great she’ll understand) and get yourself into marriage counseling.

    I’m a little bit more sympathetic because I’ve almost gone down a bad path myself. My marriage is really freaking bad. Like, physical abuse and Craigslist cheating bad. An ex boyfriend who’s always really been an amazing friend to me found out his wife is a cheating disordered POS. Cue the long Facebook chat sessions, the discussions about “what ever happened to us?”, and everything else that happens when two hurting people with a past start talking too frankly. Even in the face of a bad set of circumstances, it’s still wrong. It would be even more wrong to take the relationship physical and leave my husband (as bad as things have been) for the ex. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, deserves a fair shake. They don’t deserve to be compared to someone on the outside, an unknown fantasy.

    Do the right thing and break contact while you determine whether your marriage itself is flawed or whether you’re a victim of “the grass is greener” syndrome. If you’re not fully mentally and emotionally present while you’re making this evaluation, you’re not doing right by your wife of 20+ years. Even if you end up divorced, she deserves at least that much.

    I hope you figure things out.

    • And I would suggest that even post-divorce, it’s a good idea to stay away from the FB and cellphone chatting until you have been on your own for a year and can get into a real dating relationship with a friend. Until you see how that person treats you when you are the only man/woman in his or her life, you won’t know whether that relationship has what it takes to become a partnership. I know this all too well; the jackass was one of my best friends and gave me a lot of support while I was ending a marriage. He was great on the phone and fine in person, given our very busy professional lives. But he prefers woman who are married or in crisis–the “knight in shining armor.” And other relationships with people of the opposite sex distract us from the real work of resolving our past relationship, getting clear with ourselves about who WE were in the relationship, and fixing our picker. There is no substitute for feeling the pain, mourning the marriage/relationship, doing the healing, being alone long enough to know ourselves again as someone outside of a couple. I would caution anyone from getting into an intense friendship with someone you are or could be sexually and emotionally attracted to. Fall in love with yourself! Talk to your platonic friends or your siblings! Or you can end up in a very bad place with a much longer healing time. Spoken from experience.

  • “Don’t be a douchebag, Michael.” Words to live by. I appreciate that you’ve come to C.L. for feedback, I hope you take it in. Michael you sound like a high school kid, infatuated with this woman and everything you’ve projected her in your fantasy. Maybe she’s more interesting to you because she’s not interested in you? You want to do everything in the world for her–so she will love and adore your long unsung heroism? That’s about you, not her, and it certainly is unfair to your wife and family. Out of bounds. You are already in dangerous territory and you are hurting your wife by siphoning this part of yourself into shmoopsie rather than getting help for your marriage or playing fair. If shmoopsie is the woman you’ve described she wouldn’t want to break up a marriage. She’s told you no, C.L. says stop it now or get a divorce. What are you going to do with your feelings when she hands them back to you? Maybe you will man up and use this as an opportunity to strengthen your marriage or make a clean break. But this is not “giving and giving” to your wife and family. Feelings, yes. But if we all acted from our reptilian brains every time we had one we’d have to start living in lagoons. Best of luck to you.

    • I’m too busy being hung up on the fact that he apparently doesn’t have good boundaries and has been having inappropriate conversations with the wife of his “friend”.

      With friends like those, who needs enemas? Right?

      • Exactly, TimeHeals. Here’s something to think about: maybe Michael (and the Jackass, who may well be Michael or his twin separated at birth) likes to compete with his friend. Once I stopped spackling, I could see the X’s pattern of getting involved with women who were married or in the process of separating, etc. I know of one situation where he was in a professional relationship with the husband/boyfriend of one AP and in the current case, he knows the whole family and lives a few blocks away. I read something last week about how some people on the character disorder spectrum like “complicated relationships”–that triangle or quadrangle thing. The competition with the partner of the OW/OM–coming out the “winner,” as if anyone ever wins in infidelity. Plenty of kibbles in being “better” than a spouse of 25 years. The X in my case has evidently kicked the OW to the curb. Once I found out, he risked major exposure in his own social circle and of course he was no longer in a power position in relation to me because I knew what he was doing. And he knew I knew. I think there’s a lot of power bullshit that goes in in these situations. The sex is just the playing field.

        • LovedaJackass, this is a brilliant insight and I think it’s true of most cheating, but most certainly cheating by sociopaths and/or narcissists.

        • LaJ, once again you hit the nail on the head. Like rape, cheating is not really about sex. It’s about power. Not to mention, cheating *is* a form of rape. It’s a rape of the spirit; it’s a rape of hope; it’s a rape of trust. Goddamn these selfish, entitled, blind fucks.

          You know how they have those Take Back the Night? marches. Maybe there should be a Take Back the Chump march!

      • Right on, TimeHeals.

        STBX started talking about the conversations he’d had at work with the temps his company had hired. All the temps were young, female, and the majority were temps because they didn’t have the maturity to keep a regular full-time job. I told him that he was spending way too much emotional energy and knew way too much about these people’s personal lives. He countered that this is what they talked about, and he felt sorry for them. I told him it was his job to ensure that the office had a more professional tone to it. Especially when the conversations turned toward guys they’d slept with, he needed to have the guts to ask them to tone things down a bit for the office.

        • If he was the supervisor, he could have been sued for sexual harassment because the work environment had been “sexualized.” It happened to a supervisor I had; the man had actually not harassed the person who brought the suit, but the lawyers went after the workplace environment.

  • “I’m a good man, hard working, and a great provider to my family. I just can’t deal with some of the things that happen here at home. I give and give and do everything for my wife, but don’t feel appreciated for all I do….”

    Really? Boo Hoo. You’re also a man who’s having an emotional affair with a FRIEND’S soon to be ex wife. That in itself is mucho skeezy. I think you need to step back and stop trying to paint yourself as some kind of fucking hero. You’ve been at this shit for year. Don’t you realize this shit translates back to home and affects how your wife relates to you? Don’t be that asshole.

    You think you’re justified in wanting cake because of your “feelings”? Do the feelings of your family figure into any of this or is it just all about you?

    Character . . . learn how to improve yours. Also, stop telling this other woman things about your life that you really should be sharing with your wife. Better yet, grow a pair and work on your marriage before you fuck everything up and dump everything for sparkles and rainbows.

    At 51 years “young”, this really should be a no-brainer by now right?

    • Yeah, even if he was friggin single, having inappropriate conversations with the wife of a friend kind of makes you question his honesty, integrity, and whether or not he has any real boundaries worth mentioning.

      That’s something completely aside from his marriage. “Skeezy” is too kind, really.

      • After I responded, I thought, why the fuck did I even bother? Anyone who’s read 5% of this blog knows what it’s about. He’s not looking for advice . . . I think he wants attention. Feel sorry for me . . . I haz the sadz because I want to bone my friend’s “lady”. Gross.

        • That’s probably true, but you know, I answer these sorts of things (and letters from OW) so you get a nice look inside their heads.

          It’s really not special.

          • True dat. It is nice to see how it cycles in their heads . . .

            Especially that part about not really connecting with his wife anymore, and doesn’t understand that trying to fuck another woman for a year might put a slight strain on his marriage.

            Yay!

            • “Especially that part about not really connecting with his wife anymore, and doesn’t understand that trying to fuck another woman for a year might put a slight strain on his marriage. ”

              Ya Michael, “trying to fuck another woman for a year might put a slight strain on his marriage. ” really “51 young” where the hell did your thought process lead you to believe that this was something that would be a good thing???????

        • Amen. I couldn’t fix a problem when I didn’t know she existed. I feel like such a fool that I danced and tried and didn’t know.

  • You should probably keep obeying her wishes. She means it.

    There was a similar situation during my divorce with a friend who had good intentions but developed feelings. He was respectful enough not to make an overture. I had absolutely no interest for obvious reasons. Under no uncertain terms would anything other than him working on his marriage would have been acceptable. I appreciated his concern and friendship. That is where it ended.

    I lay most of the responsibility on you because she is exiting the marriage and you are in a marriage. But she knows better than to become your confidante.

    Friendship is great. Feelings happen. Acting on those feelings is what makes you an asshole.

    She means it, Michael. Do the right thing.

    • Hmm, “obey?” Sounds strangely dominatrix. So if you didn’t have to “obey” her turning you down you’d have already (who says it here?) slipped on a banana peel, accidentally ripping your clothes off and landed in bed on top of her? The only reason you’re not is because you’re “obeying” her? It’s an odd choice of words, maybe you’re not 51 years young, but dramatically emotionally arrested. I pray for your wife and kids.

        • Oh I knew you were quoting him, sorry! I was speaking about his wording, I noticed it when I first read the post.And whoever said she isn’t the problem, she’s a symptom of the bigger problem— I agree.

          • I thought his use of words was odd, too, like he saw himself as some kind of chivalrous hero in an epic saga. Classic narcissistic point of view-” look at me, I’m the shining star, rescuing the ‘lady’ in distress.” And the people who are supposed to matter, his wife and kids – they are reduced to bit player status.

            • The quintessential cheater cliche is the narrative of damsel in distress and the knight in shining armor. I’ve seen this play out in my STBX’s affair with OW. It’s even in the language of their purile love letters to each other.

              I suspect that OW is truly the narcissist. I think STBX is more BPD than NPD. Clearly they’re made for each other in a co-dependent kind of way.

              • You know, I had no idea that people behaved this way before I experienced it myself. I thought most people got divorced because they couldn’t get along or, in some cases, because some trauma broke the bond, such as losing a child to illness or violence. Seriously. I had no idea a person could leave a relationship that had no problems, not even a fight over who takes out the garbage. But that of course is the problem–cheaters think differently than we do.

  • I want to add this. You know what the right thing is. Only you know the state of your marriage. But there is a right thing and a wrong thing to do here. The wrong thing, clearly, is to be unfaithful.

    I was not married very long and frankly a bit cavalier about the concept of marriage and divorce. But the one thing I asked my husband, especially when I did what I call a “marriage check-in”, as in “what is the state of our union”, was that if he started to developing feelings for another woman to just be forthright about it. Just say something. Communicate.

    I had no idea what I would do with that information– seek marital counseling, separate, divorce, have an open marriage– but it would have at least honored our covenant and been a dialogue in which we engaged as a couple.

    Instead, he just left without warning. I found out why. It occurred to me he never would have been able to have that discussion with me because he simply incapable of feelings. He did not care.

    Don’t be that guy. Just don’t be that guy. Checking out your wife is being that guy.

    • Same thing happened to me, which is why I’m completely shocked to this day. I was cavalier about it too, but I thought he would have said something, but nope he just left out of the blue. They just don’t care, they just want what they want and they want it this instant. Sad.

    • “Instead, he just left without warning. I found out why. It occurred to me he never would have been able to have that discussion with me because he simply incapable of feelings. He did not care. ”

      I asked my ex to also talk to me if he ever felt there were problems in the marriage. Instead, I too was blindsided…

      • I can’t remember how many times I
        asked the ass to talk to me. What kibble that was! His favorite, next to lying. Ah, sit back, withhold and watch her twist for me. Like asking the cat to get me some coffee…if I ask correctly?

  • “I cannot help but think about her and wish it could turn into something more. She tells me that can’t happen and I obey by her wishes.”

    Dude, here’s what I think. She’s not into you. She’s likely lonely, heartbroken and struggling with what appears to be a difficult divorce. She’s been careless with boundaries, and, well, one person’s vulnerability is another’s opportunity, right?

    I can’t imagine what your wife has done to deserve the kind of disrespect inherent in your secret contest of false equivalencies, but you owe her a heaping helping of restitution.

    Get thee to a shrink, my friend, and save your nickels. It is going to be very, very expensive to deconstruct this level of self-deception.

    • ” WISH “….as IN.. ” YOU Wish !! ”
      DREAM ON..It’s BEEN a YEAR…SHE Doesn’t ” WANT ” You…
      She’s USING You, like You’re USING your FRIEND…as an Excuse to TALK to his WIFE.

      It’s HER HUSBAND , YOUR WIFE and KIDS that DESERVE BETTER.

      Let’s NOT TALK about what YOU Deserve…Wouldn’t wanna Hurt your lil ” Feelings “.

    • well said, Wasted. When I was the downest I’ve ever been in my life, I confided in my BIL who I thought was a good friend and known for years. He saw I was totally vulnerable and guess what he decided to do? Hit on me! With my sister in the house. Talk about making me sick to my stomach. Suddenly, what? This old man thinks he can be my knight-in-shining and make a pass in case he gets lucky. What a joke these guys are.
      And, no – he’s not in my life anymore.

      • Brilliant, Wasted.

        ‘I can’t imagine what your wife has done to deserve the kind of disrespect inherent in your secret contest of false equivalencies, but you owe her a heaping helping of restitution.’

  • Michael

    You’re a wuss, dressed up as a knight in tin foil. Get off your white donkey and put on your underwear. You just want to bang this so called “lady”.

    You’re a creep…a loser….a pathetic excuse for a man. A real man and a real “lady” wouldn’t be pulling this kind of shit.

    What you are and speak is fluent bullshit…..basically you just fart out of your mouth and think it’s poetry.

    You’re not unique and neither is this “lady”. Just a couple of middle aged frauds who are dumpster diving for kibbles.

    • “Just a couple of middle aged frauds who are dumpster diving for kibbles.”

      Laughing so hard at the mental image this summoned.

      CL, I see one of your hilarious cartoons in this quote. 😉

      • ” Just a couple of middle aged frauds who are dumpster diving for kibbles.”

        Classic! I am saving this in my Notebook of Derision for the times when I’m feeling rejected and worthless!

    • OHHHHHHH PF! How hilarious!! Wuss, tin foil, donkey, the works, I am going to go read it again…made my day! This response should go into the chump Hall of Fame! PS: CL nailed it as usual too.

    • “…basically you just fart out of your mouth and think it’s poetry.”

      Would that I had had this line at my disposal back when I was dating a “poet.”

    • O.M. Friggin’. G.!!! PF, I laughed SO HARD at this! “…fluent bullshit…” “fart out of your mouth and think it’s poetry…”

      I’ll tell ya, I just bought a jump rope with the intention of using it to help me to lose about 10 lbs. of belly fat. If I keep reading YOUR posts, other posts here at Chump Nation–and LAUGHING AS HARD AS I DID–I won’t NEED the jump rope!

      Losing weight through laughter. Who’d have thunk! 🙂

      G.

  • The quote, “Friends come and friends go, but enemies accumulate,” is as true as it is humorous.

    My Dad always said, “There are many people out there with memories like mules. Screw over them, and they will wait a lifetime to catch you bending over so they can kick you in the ass so hard that your face permanently lodges in the mud. Be honorable in all your dealings for yourself as much as for others.”

    One aspect of “cheating” (regardless of context) that people don’t seem to comprehend and internalize is that when we betray or exploit decent trusting people who have been honorable with us, we really do not “get away with it.” We create permanent and implacable enemies who never lose their desire for justice. Sooner or later one (or more) of them is going to inherit the legitimate “whip hand” …. and choose to use it.

    All behavior has consequences. Some immediate and some delayed–BUT there IS always a reckoning.

    “Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences.” ~Robert Louis Stevenson

    How big a force feeding do you want?

    • Is that a long way of saying… that you hope he gets his ass kicked? LOL

      I do not condone violence, but… me too.

      • LOL 🙂 Time….it’s a long way of saying that he will cause his own metaphorical ass-kicking… because he laid the ground work for it.

        Are you old enough to remember ” The Flying Fickle Finger of Fate” award on “Laugh In”?

  • Michael,

    Methinks by the content and tone of your letter that you may be an asshole. I don’t want to sound harsh or judgmental, but I want to give to you the same courtesy and respect which your post and behavior with your “friend’s” wife extends to your wife of 22 years.

    How do you define “appreciation?” What does appreciation look like to you? Is it being at your beck and call? Is it kissing your ass? Is it being a doormat? Is it neglecting all of her needs in order to satisfy all of yours? How do you define “doing everything for” your wife? What does that look like to you?

    Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, not an adversarial relationship or cage match. Do you adjudge your wife “deficient” based on some arbitrary point system in which you assign points based on some arbitrary guidelines which you have designed and of which your wife is unaware? Does she even know that she’s expected to “compete” with some unknown challenger? How open and honest is your communication with your wife for whom you do “everything?”

    CL has suggested that you not be a douchebag. I would say that you’re already a douchebag. All I can suggest is that you stop being a douchebag. I would also like to suggest that you cease and desist being a selfish, self-absorbed, woe-is-me, navel-gazing, whiny-assed titty-baby and act like an adult and not some fickled, mooning, mutton-headed, newly testicle-descended teenager.

    Your wife and children deserve a mature adult in the role of husband and father. Get some therapy Michael and try to ascertain why you feel the need to emotionally revisit middle school. The problem lies with you, Michael and your dissatisfaction with you. The gay divorcee is not the answer; she’s just another symptom of your problem.

    • Awesome post CP…especially the spot-on questions in paragraphs two and three. Those questions require some objective THINKING though…and too many people can’t be bothered to allow reason and logic to interfere with “feelings”. Actually a scary number of people have no clue how to differentiate between thinking and feeling. Damn you sound too much like a therapist! What’s wrong with you trying to inject sanity into chaos? 😉

  • If you didn’t have your spouses to complain about, you won’t have anything to talk about or connect with. You are in a teenage click, feeling those teenage hormones, u want to lie and deceive your parents(spouses) because it’s SO FUN. After both marriages end you’ll just have a relationship built with lies and no trust,, more Kids to raise, lots of bills to pay, laundry to do, the ” what’s for dinner,” the flu, not to mention doing chores for “her kids, ” ect. That’s reality of relationships. You just love to be told how HORRIBLE her hubby is , and she loves dreaming about how GREAT your wife has it. She’ll imagine you being her kids daddy, and you her husband. Look at other men who are on their second wives from an affair, do their wives still “appreciate” them after a few years? She’s pulling u in with her woes. U couldn’t imagine her ever getting ANGRY with you like she does at her husband, but all those angry eyes will be on you next after she carefully manipulates you in. I would bet she’ll say, ” oh we just can’t do this, “oh, I never felt this way before, or your the only man who’s made me orgasm, or we are SOUL MATES and just can’t let this thing go! WAKE UP! This thing will feel good until your lying fantasy doesn’t exist anymore . Then your normal life, will never be the same. No more family vacations, happy Christmases, , and all the relationships with family and friends will change. Don’t be another cheating dumbass.

  • Dear Micheal
    Maybe someone else has said so, but I think your “new lady” is having her sexual desires met elsewhere. I agree with CL in that the New Lady is using you as a kibble supplier and not interested in you scratching her itch. 51 years young sounds like you are probably an old fogey to your new fantasy.

    Otherwise I don’t get how some people can look at a friend’s spouse and fantasize about sexing them up. That’s disgusting. Get help old dude ’cause this new lady is playing you hard. At least talk to your wife so that she can make some decisions about her life.

    • 🙂
      Uh HUH…
      But See He’s SUCH a NARCISSIST HE Can’t IMAGINE she’s Giving ANOTHER ASSHOLE what he only THINKS is up for Grabs for HIM..after a YEAR.

  • Michael,

    Last year you met a woman you feel in love with who was married to your friend for 25 years? So you just met her? Had you not known her when she was married to your friend? What was that you say?

    Michael you are a piece of shit. The people on this blog are being very kind to you. Do this:

    Show your wife the letter you wrote here. Let her determine what to do with her life now that she knows what a piece of shit you are. Emotional affairs are even more violent and cruel because they are framed as “emotional” — all-so-beautiful and-innocent-we just feel-for each-other-and-understand-each other-bull. You are two gross creepy dirt bags and your wife deserves to know how unhappy you are at home that you are willing to describe it all so generally on the internet.

    What’s wrong at home Mike? Just unhappy sometimes? You’re a shit. Divorce your wife dumbo so you don’t pull her down into her 60s.

    I once met a man like you at a workshop. He wore a wedding ring and I was going through reconciliation not even knowing at the time that my ex had an affair. We happened to sit together and he started a conversation about hurricane Sandy (the workshop theme). He then found me on Linked in and started emailing me that he thought I was nice and we should get together to “talk.” I told him repeatedly that I did not have time and that was it. The point is: when you meet someone and they are married and want to “talk” to you just after a “nice” conversation— you know—you have a feeling what they are looking for. It’s not JUST friendship or a nice talk, it’s their fucked up idea of intimacy—intimacy they should be getting at home with people who know them. Oh, right, people at home don’t know them because they lead double lives–right, right. right!

    Empathic people who think of others and take responsibility for their lives do not get caught up in these shit scenarios as cheaters.

    Get a clue Mikey. Give your wife a great settlement and let her live in peace and just maybe you can save your corroded soul.

    • This is an awesome post, and explains what I failed to say about the cost of an emotional affair to the one who is betrayed. It is all dressed up in “soul mate,” “we can’t help ourselves,” “we deserve love and happiness” bullshit.” And what none of these dirtbags do is tell their spouse/partner what they are up to when the emotional affair starts so that the loyal spouse can make decisions based on the real situation. And you make a really good point that Mikey should let his wife get on with her life before she is 60, as financial and social consequences escalate when people near retirement.

      • Everyone deserves the truth so they can make decisions for their own lives. It hurts like hell for someone to “keep you on the hook” while they’re trying to decide what they want, keeping YOU in the dark until they’ve made THEIR decision. In the meantime they dehumanize you so when the time comes they can cut you off without it hurting their conscience too much. Controlling, abusive people do this.

        • My ex actually said this the night I found out, and when I asked him why he was cheating on me….”I needed to make sure it was a sure thing with her first.”

          7 months after I kicked him out I found emails he’d written 5 yrs ago to a previous OW… what about HER then? I guess it “wasn’t a sure with her”.

          The thing that makes me the angriest is that no one should have the right to alter another person’s reality while they protect all their own options. He also said that he and current OW had been “meeting” because “she was beginning to put conditions on him and he felt he had to negotiate with her.” When was I going to get MY right to “negotiate?” NO, I was just supposed to keep feeding and supporting him while he fucked around. CAKE.

          • I’m so sorry Muse…
            and You’re 100% Correct. YOU HAD a STAKE IN IT TOO…THEY STEPPED ALL OVER YOUR HUMAN RIGHTS TO DECIDE YOUR OWN FUTURE.
            And THIS is WHY they SUCK.

          • Oh, Muse, so sorry. the only good side is that once you found those emails, you knew it had nothing to do with you, if you didn’t know it already with his bizarre explanations. I agree that the way they alter our lives while protecting “their own options” is infuriating once the truth comes out. It’s the ultimate “special advantage” that an asshole allows himself to have over other people. He knows he’s cheating, that he’s eating cake here, there and wherever. He knows if he plans to exit and when and how that will happen. That is why, I think, they are so infuriated when D-Day comes and catches them unprepared. If the chump stands up and ends it, that special advantage is over. And I also think it’s possible that is why some Cheaters take their kids to Disney with the OW, fight support, etc. They are trying to pull the scales back in their direction. CL is right. The only way to come out OK is to “gain a life,” and one that is awesome by our own standards. That’s hard when we hurt so much, especially in the beginning, but learning how these dimwits think (the entitlement, the kibbles, the cake, the lack of “moral respect” for other people helps us get that new life going.

            • Muse, I am so sorry for what happened to you, but you put into words so perfectly what the real slap in the face is–that we don’t get a choice or a say in what’s going down, even as our realities are shifting irrevocably right under our feet. It’s the awful feeling of having been made a fool of (hence my user name), of having been rendered powerless when you didn’t even know there was a contest in the first place. And LaJ, thanks for your response. I’m really so grateful for this site today, as others give voice to thoughts I either didn’t realize I had or simply haven’t found a way to articulate yet.

              Michael, I’ve been thinking about your post all day, and I stand by my opinion that you’re being very juvenile, not to mention a damn fool. The one thing that *is* in your favour is that you put it out there to the Chump Nation *before* you drove you and your whole family over the cliff. If you’re still reading these replies and haven’t gone into anaphylactic shock, then PLEASE GET SOME HELP. Not for your marriage, but FOR YOU. The issue isn’t your wife or this other chick; it’s your increasing sense of your own (hence the “51 years young” phrasing), but some new woman is not going to stave that off. Go watch Moonstruck and listen to Olympia Dukakis. Better yet, go home and listen to your wife. How much do you really know about what’s going on for her? When is the last time you tried to see your marriage through her eyes?

              • FoolMeTwice..Having been made a fool of? That’s me. All of the STBX’s truck driver friends KNEW that he was having a long-term affair, and not a single one had a problem with it. I was and have been a 3 year joke to many people.

            • Yes, exactly! what you said: “He knows he’s cheating, that he’s eating cake here, there and wherever. He knows if he plans to exit and when and how that will happen. That is why, I think, they are so infuriated when D-Day comes and catches them unprepared.”

              He was indeed livid when I told him he had to move out. He wasn’t prepared, because he never planned to leave; he was going to keep eating cake forever and he enjoyed the power trip he got from succeeding at tricking me. And though he lied on D-Day and said he was in love with OW, finding the old emails to previous OW made it suddenly all make sense to me. It wasn’t ABOUT OW1 or OW2 it was all about his specialness and his special secret life, and about tricking me and getting me to keep supporting him while he lived his life as the “Dandy” he pictured himself as.

        • Yes, Lyn, I think that is what angered me the most… I didn’t get a choice! I was kept in the dark, while He unilaterally made decisions emotionally , physically and financially that affected my entire life! He had no right to do that!!!

  • Michael–

    Another thing: how many people in your daily life will you be able to look at in the eyes if you torpedo your family for some new thing? This isn’t part of your fantasy, but it would be your reality.

    • This is a good point. I think my ex had no idea of the way his decision would ripple out and affect our community…his family, our friends, even work stuff, since we work in the same field and know all the same people. I don’t think he thought people would be upset because “it’s just something that happens sometimes in life.” Not a big deal to him… I think he has been shocked by how upset some people (besides me) have been. And I know that he probably doesn’t even know the half of it because none of my friends or family have contacted him at all. And I have friends that are not even in my inner circle that are still furious at him and Dday was this past summer.

  • Michael-

    You may have gathered this already but you are truly not original.

    My ex had an affair with a married co-worker. When I discovered it he told me that “Our marriage was ending anyway”. You guessed it: I didn’t get that memo. Oh sure I knew that for about a year leading up to the physical part of their affair that there was a “disturbance in the force” so to speak. I was reacting accordingly so I was probably a bit of a lunatic for that year and the marriage did seem worse than it had been. He had much to do with that. (this applies to you Michael)

    Instead of working on our marriage by say, I don’t know, speaking up and doing the work. He did what most cowardly cheaters do and that was to use his energy to set up his soft landing spot for when our marriage was over….God forbid he should ever have to be alone. I was irrevocably hurt by what he did but I tried to give him another chance for 3 more years of my life. It didn’t work because infidelity permanantly destroys the relationship you’re in….FOREVER.

    Not to mention the fact that if cowardly, entitled people won’t do the work to make their marriage better before they step out; they will certainly not do the enormous amount of work it takes to help someone heal after that mess.

    Let my asshat ex be your cautionary tale. I won’t have anything to do with him anymore and both of my now grown children think that he’s a coward. 27 years of accumulated memories all amount to nothing now. What a waste for the both of us; of course I only feel bad for me in this scenario. I really could care less if he died, got some horrible illness or wound up alone for the rest of his life. He truly means no more to me than I would feel about crap I got stuck on my shoe. The opposite of love is not hate-it’s complete and utter indifference. Is this how you want your wife to feel about you someday?

    • “Not to mention the fact that if cowardly, entitled people won’t do the work to make their marriage better before they step out; they will certainly not do the enormous amount of work it takes to help someone heal after that mess.”

      So true!

  • “Is it so wrong for me to have these feelings for such a wonderful woman who I deeply care for?”

    Dude, not to go all Old Testament on you, but if you’re not sure whether something is wrong? There are 10 rules you can refer to and get a pretty good idea. Try, say, Exodus 20:17. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife” ring any bells?

    Oh, and if you swoon over your bro’s ox or his ass and imagine you also have some fated soulmate connection to them, you need to let that go as well.

  • Michael

    That alone time you have in your bathroom, as you primitively pluck grey strands of white pubic hair and trim around your 51 year old balls, in the event your soon to be divorced “lady” may have a change of heart in getting physical with you. Have you been jogging, dieting and sucking in your potbelly for such an occasion as to make lurvve to this lady.

    How much time have you spent jerking off in the shower for your “lady”. Have you scrolled through porn sights for new moves to dazzle this “lady” if she gives you the green light.

    Have you practiced in front of the mirror your blue steel look coupled with sincerity when that moment arrives.

    This pre-affair shit takes considerable effort, along with the multitude of giving, giving, and more giving to your unappreciative wife.

    You’re a man on a mission. White pubic hair free manscaped balls and a heart of imitation gold for your “lady”.

    Must be hard for you…what a drag your wife and kids must be. They would never appreciate your coiffed groin and your ernest need from some alone time with your “lady friend”

    You could get a real divorce too….but being such a “good husband and dad” means giving up your own happiness for the greater good. At this point you have your bathroom master bating grooming sessions in the shower to feed your warped imagination.

    Thus, the plucking of grey pubic hair from your groin, though slightly painful, is the in itself a great sacrifice in acquiring appreciation from the “lady” for whom would appreciate your groomed balls as a sign of your lurvve and devotion.

    Yup….you’re a winner Michael, or should we call you MIKE.

    I assume at 51 you’ve lost some hair on your head, perhaps you shouldn’t flush those plucked pube hairs down the toilet and instead get them grafted to your skull. Ironically, it’s would be fitting for dick head such as yourself.

    • Holy crap.

      My ex shaved his gray pubes into the toilet, so the homewrecker would enjoy his manscaped area. He left the hair clump floating in the toilet for me to flush. Truth be told, I did not appreciate it. So maybe he was right to leave me.

    • P.F., you are hilarious and your posts today have made me laugh out loud. You have these assholes pegged.

    • P.F .. This is my ex husband of 37 years. He also got a BIG black Indian themed tattoo on his right shoulder. He now wears many, many wrist bands that you are given in the Asian countries. He is 62 years old and looks like a complete bald old wanker. He is referred to as Mr.Burns (Simpsons) at work and he thinks it is funny. He doesn’t realise that his work colleagues are laughing at him not with him.

      • P. F.
        I GOTTA ASK….
        Are you INVOLVED with ANYONE ??
        I THINK I’m in LOVE ;);)

        Fucking HILLARIOUS !!!!!!!!!

      • Michael….MIKE…or as I like to call him “Mickey” is one hella of want to be man child.

        Sans white haired plucked pubes, and his whiny…I’m not appreciated bullcrap is narcissistic script 101.

        Mickey built a castle, it’s a falling down around him and instead of getting off his white donkey alla white unicorn horse and reinforcing the walls to his castle is wasting his effort on saving the “lady” who I know for a fact farts and takes a shit everyday.

        Mickey, of the coiffed groin tribe of middle aged cheaters is in lurvve with himself.

    • OMG. I just had to give myself the Heimlich maneuver. No more eating and reading CL.

      Thank you PF, for that picturesque look into the mating rituals of delayed adolescents like my ex. Whew, man, did I dodge a bullet!

  • I don’t think any appeals to Michael to “do the right thing” will work here. The only argument I think that would work is to appeal to Michael’s fear of the consequences. If he pursues a relationship with this “lady” or another “lady,” he will regret it. He’s not even seeing the potential damage of his actions–to his family and to himself. There was no mention, for instance, in his letter of any concern about the pain an affair would inflict on his wife and children–they’re not even on his radar, but only as potential obstacles to his “happiness.”

    • I was appalled that my ex was involved with a married coworker and plotting to break up their marriage. I told him he should NOT interfere in another man’s family and damage the children’s relationship with their father. To me that is just wrong, a line you don’t cross. My ex said nothing, but glared at me like he wished I was dead.

      • They don’t care. The X stopped short of breaking up his OW’s marriage only because he would rather sit in the recliner at his mom’s house (no rent, age 51) and text a married woman than actually have a relationship that requires anything of him. So he’ll just unsettle that marriage and leave her pining over his jackass self. Either way, it’s wrong, but…they don’t care.

    • My h will tell you I never crossed his mind while he was having sunshine blown up his ass. Did he ever end a dinner with his ow by saying ‘gotta run and read my little one a story’ or dId he call me from the tryst and say, “hey just checking to see if all the homework got done, who won the soccer game, how’d the history test/teacher conference/strep swab go?” hell no, because I took care of all of it while he did as he pleased. Texted her from my bday dinner, to complain about the lousy company. Why was I so miserable on my bday? Because I knew my asshole h had checked out. And he had. I sensed from day 1 something was off. There’d been a lot of other coworker women in the past – gorgeous, MBA, smart, classy – and he brought them home to meet us, met their spouses, total transparency, it was always, “youll love her, i cant wait for you to meet”. And i never got a icky vibe. Integrity. He was right about them, they were smart and knew boundaries, would not have been interested in a married man. This one? Gross, uneducated, unpolished, “embarrassing” (his word). Never arranged great big dinners out with all the kids like w the others, never included her in our parties like the others. When I asked him which one she was, he flipped a huge shit for not being involved in his work life. I knew then. Got cagey immediately. Constant contact w her, sleeping w his phone. But she was such a good listener. His crappy marriage, blah blah blah. Too bad so sad. The karma bus has arrived and now not being able to tuck your baby in or help with homework is a nasty fact. Everyone loses here. Absolutely everyone. I have no joy in what this mess has turned into, even though I called it a long time ago.

      • So so sorry, I Am A Rock Star*. Your instincts were great, though. My X left a pile of clues, too. He kept mentioning the OW–who like the OW in your marriage was uneducated and also the mirror of his ex-wife in terms of her focus on wanting designer everything. He suddenly didn’t want to say where he was going, with whom he was spending his time, which up to that point had been spent with me. And I got a similar treatment on my birthday. I couldn’t understand why he wanted to hurry home instead of staying over, until I found out about the married OW. He probably told her he was working when he was with me. But it has to be a lot harder for you, with a child or children. Doubles the hurt, at least.

  • Hey, CL… I hope you don’t mind me quoting a book that is somewhat about infidelity. I’m not going to explain it here, but I love what the author says about infatuation at the end of the passage. Her discussion here is about life as a nurse in a war zone during WWII (from Outlander by Diana Gabaldon):

    “Infatuation. It was common, among the nurses and the doctors, the nurses and the patients, among any gathering of people thrown for long periods into one another’s company.

    Some acted on it, and brief, intense affairs were frequent. If they were lucky [this part I personally disagree with since I do not condone cheating of any sort], the affair flamed out within a few months and nothing resulted from it. If they were not… well. Pregnancy, divorce, here and there the odd case of venereal disease. Dangerous thing, infatuation.

    I had felt it, several times, but had the good sense not to act on it. And as it always does, after a time the attraction had lessened, and the man lost his golden aura and resumed his usual place in my life, with no harm done to him, or to me, or to [my husband]…”

    Michael, please read that last paragraph over and over again until it sticks. You are seeing the very best of the object (and yes, she’s an object– you don’t know her like you know your wife; you only know what she chooses to show you or what you wish to see) of your affection. Over time, you will probably realize how much you could have destroyed your life if you chased after her, and you may even question why you were interested in her in the first place.

    Don’t blow up your life and your family’s life for a crush. Believe me, if this woman did pursue a relationship with you, you’d discover her failings and idiosyncrasies soon enough. Let her lose the “golden aura.” Work on your marriage or leave it before you think about involving anyone else.

  • Michael, sound like my ex husband. He was involved in a long-term emotional affair with a coworker in his office. He kept assuring me they were just work buddies and I wanted so much to believe him, but I could FEEL that he wasn’t into our marriage. He was just going through the motions. Guess how that made me feel? Unloved, unwanted, unappreciated, angry. I sure didn’t feel like “appreciating” him. He never once came to me and said “I’m upset with X, Y, Z in our relationship, do you think we can work on it?” or “What can I do to make our relationship better?” You can bet those were words I was dying to hear. I didn’t know what the hell was wrong, but I desperately wanted a better marriage too.

    Have you really tried to talk to your wife? Have you asked her to go to marriage counseling with you? Have you gone to a counselor yourself to work on YOUR issues?? It’s so much easier to become obsessed with a fantasy of how great things could be with someone else than do the hard work of looking at YOURSELF and how you are contributing to the difficulties in your marriage. I’m not saying your wife doesn’t have issues, I’m saying that YOU are part of your marriage. YOU are contributing to your wife’s unappreciative attitude.

    Betrayal is a terrible legacy to leave. Be a better person and FACE YOUR problems instead of trying to escape them. The grass might look greener in your neighbor’s yard, but yours could be just as green if you’d water it.

    If you’re truly incompatible with your wife, end it honestly.

  • If anybody reading this was one of the people who was offended by my liberal use of expletives when I guest-blogged for CL, please stop reading now because I’m about to blaspheme…

    JESUS. CHRIST….

    I used to love classic rock stations when I was kid. Then I grew up and realized: a) They play the SAME songs by the SAME bands with NO variety; b) The best songs by the Stones, Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles were never played on the radio, thus listening to classic rock is futile.

    You Michael, although you haven’t “dropped yo draws” just yet, are a would-be cheater of the classic-rock station variety. The SAME excuses. The SAME invented problems. The SAME deification of poor, poor schmoopie-to-be, and the SAME motherfucking Knight In White Satin Complex.

    You’re not special. And you’re not a hero. You’re the same Horse With No Name that we’ve all been fucked over by. We’ve ALL heard these songs (read: bullshit excuses) again and again and again. We know what song it is before the vocals even come in. Translation: Us expert Chumps didn’t even have to read your entire letter. Right off the bat we knew you were itchin’ to Go Your Own Way because you Feel Like Makin’ Love with your Lucy in the Sky.

    Had enough of the classic rock metaphors yet? Tough shit. You’re Running Down A Dream and don’t seem to give a shit if you leave your wife Dazed and Confused and singing Wish You Were Here. As long as you get to live Life In The Fast Lane like the 51-years-“young” Street Fightin’ Man that you are.

    Now, as to your actual letter….

    “I’m a married man and 51 years young, not too happy with my life at home at times. Last year I met a beautiful woman.”

    —“At times”? Is that a veiled reference to your wife’s time of the month? Or is it CheaterSpeak for “I occasionally look for shit to bother me”? And I see what you did there with the whole correlation/causation thing. It’s YOUR WIFE’s fault that your meeting of this beautiful woman is all of the sudden meaningful! If only your home life was happier, right?

    “She’s smart, funny, a great mother to her three kids and I must say super sexy, and who I totally fell in love with.”

    –As has been established many times over on this site (and I have a penis too so don’t take this a judgment): Men don’t “fall in love” prior to doing the no-pants dance. We have a word for men who do. They’re called “desperate.” It’s bad enough you’ve got cheating on the mind. You’re also painting yourself in even more unflattering colors. Right away you sound like the guy who falls in love with the stripper who gives him a lap-dance. You felt that “spark,” right…..??

    “She is going though a divorce and was married to friend of mine for just about 25 years.”

    —Since you just met her last year, I’m going to go ahead and assume that this male friend of yours has NOT been a friend for as long as her marriage. You became friends with him last year, and immediately started scoping out his wife? And you just so happen to be conveniently there for her as she goes through this divorce? Are you being supportive of HIM as well? Guys need shoulders to cry on too, y’know. With friends like these….

    “We have been talking for a long time, she tells me stories about her life and I do the same.”

    —I’m sure you’re oh so interested in her life. Let me guess. She bitches about her divorce proceedings and you bitch about how unhappy you are “at times” with your wife. Sound about right?

    “We do see each other in social gatherings and never alone (BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HER OUTSIDE OF OUR GROUP OF FRIENDS).”

    —Is your wife included in these social gatherings? Do you have any idea how badly you’re already humiliating her? And are you THAT hung up on this soon-to-divorced woman that you felt the need to SHOUT at Chump Lady about how much you’d love to see her privately?

    “Nothing has happened between us in a sexual manner. She is everything and more I’ve been looking for in a lady and a lady she is.”

    —You win the Non Sequitur Award for today. So basically, to translate the GuySpeak: You haven’t fucked her yet. But you would LOVE to since she’s “everything and more.” *golf clap*

    “Why is it that such a good women needs to deal with a divorce?”

    —Good question. We’ve ALL asked ourselves that question when our respective husbands told us they’d NEVER disrespect us, then went the hell out and did EXACTLY what you’re doing now: Forming emotional bonds with other women, showing a clear lack of boundaries and respect for us. One thing led to another, and we got cheated on.

    Why is that your wife has to be loyal and committed to a man who can’t stop obsessing over a woman he’s known for about 20 minutes?

    “I hate that she is dealing with this and would do anything, yes anything, to make her happy and help her though this.”

    —Which “she” are you referring to? What do you think your wife would be “dealing with” if she knew how you really felt about her? Would you do anything–yes anything–to make her happy and help her through this?

    Oh woah wait! You were talking about the poor divorcee, right? For a minute there I thought you were showing genuine compassion for the woman you’re actually married to! LOL. My bad!

    “Am I wrong for feeling this way about this woman?”

    —The heart wants what it wants, right? Unfortunately, we’ve heard this all before. It’s More Than A Feeling right? You don’t get sympathy simply because you’re obsessing like a schoolboy. And “feelings” aren’t a Get Out Of Marriage free card. How do you feel about your wife? She’s been conspicuously absent from your letter.

    “I cannot help but think about her and wish it could turn into something more. She tells me that can’t happen and I obey by her wishes.”

    —Something more like fucking what?! You’re married, bro! And I’m sorry—whoever this woman is, while she might be of slightly dubious character by telling her problems to a married man, at least has the sense to respect the boundaries of your marriage. How come YOU can’t do the same? It’s your marriage, dude. Not hers.

    This sounds increasingly like it’s all in your head. You’ve got her propped so high on a pedestal you don’t realize that your fantasy is simply that: A fantasy. You imagine yourself as Savior to this Heartbroken Woman while you imagine her as the Sexy Damsel who’s going to rescue you out of your boring marriage. Something tells me Ms. Damsel would be just as shocked reading your letter as your wife would be.

    “I’m a good man, hard working, and a great provider to my family.”

    —*Golf clap* Now how’s about removing your head from the Ass of La La Land and actually FOCUS on that career and family instead of zoning out on this borderline creepy obsession you’re harboring towards a woman who’s clearly told you no.

    “I just can’t deal with some of the things that happen here at home. I give and give and do everything for my wife, but don’t feel appreciated for all I do.”

    —I’m sure the guy flipping burgers at McDonald’s doesn’t feel appreciated either. But guess what? It’s his fucking JOB! You’re the husband and provider. What kind of appreciation are you seeking? What kills me about Cheaters is the barrage of excuses they tell themselves just to chase a short-term high.

    “How does one deal with this?”

    —By getting over yourself and committing to your wife and family and by acting like the man she married instead of acting like a damn 12-year-old obsessing over the blonde bombshell who lives down the street?

    “My lady friend shows me appreciation more in the short time that I’ve know her then I’ve received from the women I’ve been with for more than 22 years.”

    —We’ve heard this song too. Over and over and over. So basically this woman who you’ve been friends with ONE year (seriously, I’ve slept longer than that) is not the only the Greatest Girl Ever, but she suddenly takes precedence over the woman you’ve spent most of your adult life with? Are you….kidding me?!

    First of all, I’m positively gob-smacked by your turn of phrase. “Shows me appreciation”? Okay then, Your Majesty. Does she hold the grape-vine over your head, plucking each individual grape before gently placing it between your lips? After your fruit snack, does she use one of those giant palm tree leaves to fan you as well? Does she rub your feet as well, Sire?

    Secondly, how desperate are your standards that a woman who by your own account is a conversationalist you see in social situations all of the sudden heaps gobs of “appreciation” on you when those don’t seem to be her intentions at all?

    “It’s frustrating and I can’t understand it. I try and try with conversation to let her know my frustration, but she just doesn’t get it.”

    —We understand it. We get it. You’re physically attracted to your “lady friend” to such a degree that: a) You’re willing to fuck over your 22-year marriage just to be with her; b) You’re willing to paint your wife and marriage as vaguely unflattering to justify your childish crush; c) The clear boundaries your lady friend has established have left you wanting more. And more and more and more. She’s the Bohemian Rhapsody you could listen to over and over and never get tired of. All because she’s not letting you smash.

    “Is it so wrong for me to have these feelings for such a wonderful woman who I deeply care for?”

    —Do yourself a favor and read your CL letter out loud to your wife. Warning: She might laugh right in your face and cause you to feel even more “unappreciated.” But seriously we here at Chump Nation have seen husbands do dumber things. You’re already treading thin ice here. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were a 13-year-old and your “lady friend” was but a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit centerfold taped to your wall.

    It’s bad enough hearing all of the excuses cheaters tell themselves to justify their cheating. But dude, your “lady friend” doesn’t even want you, and as a result your letter sounds downright creepy and obsessive, not to mention insulting to your wife of 22 YEARS.

    I can say that your wife deserves better. We always hear the stories about OWs who DON’T respect boundaries and sleep with obsessive, “unhappy” husbands like you. And families get destroyed because of it. If you’re this willing to fuck up your own marriage for unrequited sexual desire, then I can’t imagine the wrecking ball you’d take to your marriage once an interested OW shows up.

    Hopefully your wife was Born To Run and gets far, far away from you. Because you’re singing a tired-ass song that’s stuck on repeat.

    • Chris, I love you. As always, you nail it with the most wonderful play on words. Perfect!

      Michael IS kind of creepy, isn’t he? 51 years “young”, that right there freaked me out a little bit. And the schoolboy crush on the chick he sees at parties, yuck.

    • Yep. Great job. Though I am more skeptical of the “we haven’t done the deed” statement. Sounds like CheaterSpeak to me. As you say, “Men don’t ‘fall in love’ prior to doing the no-pants dance.”

    • You just hit this one out of the park Chris. He’s not getting anything more from the divorcee because SHE has morals (or isn’t into him, whatever). I have no respect for someone who can’t just do the right thing (not go further) because it is right.

      Dude, you are a cheater just waiting for someone to cheat with!. Get the hell out of your marriage first. I can tell you definitively that when my STBX of 28 years told me that he wasn’t happy and wanted to separate so he could think about what he wanted, I WASN’T CRUSHED OR BROKEN. I knew that feelings can change and I would do anything to help him with his happiness, even if that meant he left me – because I loved him and he always came first (although I’m sure he felt unappreciated too).

      BUT 2 weeks later when he revealed his affair of 4 months – I nearly broke. For 3 months I was a basket case all the time from the deep betrayal. If you EVER loved your wife, or even just respected and liked her, DON’T do anything with anyone until you have gotten out of your marriage. At the very least man up and do the right thing; whatever that is – but it certainly isn’t pining after another woman while you are married!

    • “Do yourself a favor and read your CL letter out loud to your wife.” Genius! So genius, Chris. Well done.

      • Michael might consider how he’d feel finding a post from his wife who’d been secretly lusting over one of their friend’s husbands and experiencing ennui over her unfulfilling marriage. Asking CL if she couldn’t just seduce the other guy now and maybe work on the marriage sometime when it’s more convenient? Because she’s super attracted to this extremely hot guy, under his spell even, ready to obey his every command–and she’s a good mom after all?

  • Dude, you suck already.

    My gut tells me you are too much of a coward to really talk with your wife. You’ve given lame-ass attempts to ” talk” with your spouse and now you rationalize how hard it is to be under-appreciated, what a good provider you are, how you need your fucking slice of cake. This, in turn, provides you with justifications to turn to a 3rd party to feel appreciated, provide her with your time, and eat some cake.

    Yuck. You should be turning to your friend and not his wife for support and advice. Ideally you should have been turning to your partner, your WIFE.

    Something tells me you’ve already made your mind up, since you are ALREADY cheating on your wife, stealing from your kids and having a pity party with a woman you are not even married to.

    You suck. Grow up Mike. As adults we have to do hard things that aren’t fun, sexy and thrilling, like having real adult conversations with our partners. Your wife deserves to be treated with honesty and respect.

    Your letter hit a nerve. Asshat has the same name as you AND used all the same lame-ass excuses to justify sex workers, co workers, decade long girlfriend, and who knows who else. I believe you suck because you have already given yourself permission to shit on your spouse and kids. And for WHAT? FOR WHOM? Oh yeah….that exciting slice. You are a coward. Believe me, your wife and children deserve so much better.

    • You GOT This…and This is why you’re Amazing and will Eventually find someone Wonderful.

      “Lil” 51 years YOUNG Mikey, DOESN’T…and THIS is WHY He’s Gonna LOSE What’s GREAT that he ALREADY HAS..with his WIFE AND KIDS.

      I think you’re Spot on with this,ANC.

  • Quote: ” I try and try with conversation to let her know my frustration, but she just doesn’t get it.”

    To your credit, Michael, you appear to have tried communicating your concerns to your wife without success. And we have beaten you up pretty good about the extra-marital relationship. So I am willing to entertain the notion that you wife may have become complacent and unaware of the scope of your discontent. Thus, playing devil’s advocate, I’m going to make a suggestion….

    How about trying this approach?

    Tell your wife straight out that you are not happy in the marriage, that you are not sure how much responsibility for the discontent lies with whom, but that you are going to get professional counseling to determine what you personally may be doing wrong and if the relationship can be re-vitalized….or if the two of you need to look into a parting of the ways with dignity.

    Then shut up, do NOT engage in any argument or discussion of it with her. Immediately carry yourself off to counseling, apply yourself diligently and learn.

    Cease all contact with the other woman (You cannot carry another crippled individual when one of your own legs is broken) and work on yourself….HARD.

    Stay the course for long enough to get some real insight and better coping skills. Then one of two things will inevitably happen.

    (1) Your wife will see changes in you and become curious (because remember you are not telling her anything except, “I’m working my ass off on me, and when I have a true and accurate breakthrough YOU will be the first to know.”) and she will then join you in therapy to work on the relationship…

    OR

    (2) you will find out that your wife really does not care enough to save the relationship and you will be able to leave it knowing that you gave it it your best shot.

    Talk is cheap. Observable behavior says so much more. She needs to understand that you are serious about this. The only way you are going to show her is by positive pro-active behavior change.

    If you go the infidelity route (aka running away) all you will do is cause untold misery for yourself and your family for years to come…probably the rest of your life.

    This is the honorable route and the high road. I highly recommend taking it.

    • WELL SAID NOTYOU. Well said.

      Unfortunately, that option doesn’t come with heady blown smoke and exciting new snatch. That option is HARD WORK. Hence it is the road not taken.

  • How true Chumpectomy; The most dog-assed low down thing Cheaters do is forget that their spouse has a life too….that they might like to move on if they knew the truth, that their PRECIOUS TIME ON EARTH is being wasted on someone who barely gives them a second thought, and when they do it is to belittle or criticize. They sure as hell aren’t happy either with the way you are treating them getting your needs met elsewhere.

    • Oh..NO..See OUR lives are ONLY Attached to THEIRS..if THEY Walked Away, WE’D just VANISH…
      THEY ARE F U C KHeaded, NARCISSISTIC PRICKS, that We Merely act as MIRRORS they Wanna PRETEND Simply SHATTER BEHIND THEM AND DISAPPEAR, Once They GO…
      NO.. Thing IS..We DO GO ON..
      THEY’re STUCK with Their NASTY SELVES FOREVER…

      YES, MIKE..THEY WILL GO ON WITHOUT YOU….. HAPPIER TOO.
      Get Your DANDER UP ????

    • So TRUE. . When I think of the years I wasted on that dick it still makes my blood boil. Yeah, coming home to fuck me and to show up at the odd children’s game so he could act a proper husband/dad. Barf! Betcha Mickey’s wife isn’t able to look back on 22 years of wedded bliss because this pussy is not the first he’s pined for. As a dedicated wife you attribute it to work, everything except your poor POS whose life is so unexciting. Wah wah.

  • Hey, Michael wrote me offline to say:

    Hi Tracy, while all the the comments being made are saying I’ve cheated and are having an Affair….that’s not true. In the year her and I have none each other we have seen each other and I can count that number of times on one hand…yes I deserve to have my ass handed to me but please realize this Tracy …… I have not done anything in the way your readers are taking this. I’ve never slept with her and I have never kiss her beside the kiss on the cheek when we say hello at a party or a BBQ…..and in these social settings we are with many friends…..I would not mind getting my ass handed to me I just want your readers to know the truth……thank you Tracy!!

        • OH..and You May NOT have FUCKED your Friends WIFE..but you Sure HAVE FUCKED HIM, Royally. You’re not HIS FRIEND, You’re SHITE.

    • Michael,
      You need to realize that there is no difference between an emotional affair and a physical affair. My exH did both, and said the same. In many ways, the emotional affair is more damaging to the relationship, as the cheater disengages from the primary relationship.
      Your original letter suggests that an emotional affair is underway, or has a likely chance to begin. If not yet underway, time to get into counseling ASAP.

      • “In many ways, the emotional affair is more damaging to the relationship, as the cheater disengages from the primary relationship.”

        Amen to that, zyx321.

    • So has he been “talking for a long time” (about private stuff) or not?

      Was that a lie, or was this a lie?

      Welcome to the Rabbit Hole.

      • Then this the perfect time to cut all contact and work on his marriage. He can get the spark back with his wife if he puts in the work. I wish my h had tried that, I really do, spouses know the difference between genuine sincerity and bullshit going thru the motions. Commit to try it for even a week and see what happens. Emotional affairs are ghastly and gutting. Figure out thru counseling why you’re angry or unhappy with her and go from there. Ask her what shes missing. Have fun, make a dinner together, hold hands, see a movie. Shit that’s just as cliche as “my wife doesnt understand me”. Is it more work to take on 100% of an extramarital affair (lying, deceiving, pretending, oh my) or 50% of the work in a long, existent marriage? I suck at math but I can figure that one out.

    • Based on this convoluted, head up his ass, non-explanation explanation, I can only surmise that Michael is not only an asshole, douchebag, whiny-assed, titty baby, he’s also an irrational emotional moron with serious boundary issues. His wife deserves a medal and losing this clown might be the best thing that ever happened to her.

    • So Michael has fallen in love with someone he has seen less than FIVE TIMES? I have no words.

      • This was my thought too. He can count on one hand the number of times he’s actually seen her and he’s in lurrrve. Christ . . . .

        • LoL– He would do anything to make her happy . And by anything he means… something that involves meeting with her alone, but she tells him that anything can’t happen.

          I’m telling you. This could be an Alan Harper sketch.

          I’m thinking of sending it in to Chuck Lorre in case he ever runs out of ideas 🙂

    • Michael “quotes”

      We have been talking for a long time, she tells me things about her life and I do the same”.
      Talking for a long tome in between those BBQ’s . Is that talking on your cell phone or that secret e-mail account. So this “friendship is secret”. Except you act all casual at these BBQ’s, pretend you don’t know all those “things” about her life and all those “things” about your life. At the BBQ is it sweaty stares as your finger touch while reaching for the ketchup. Do you put on a big show as you mustard up your hot dog. Does she smile like a “lady” when she bites into her BBQ’d hot dog and faintly wipes the chopped onions from her lips.

      Quote…” nothing has happened between us in a “sexual” way” BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HER OUTSIDE OF OUR GROUP OF FRIENDS” . She tells me this can’t happen and I OBEY HER WISHES”.

      Gosh darn it Michael….you obey her wishes, what a good boy you are. Your feeling are pure….but you wouldn’t mind getting sexual with the “lady”. You don’t want to scare her away…but you’d like some private time to show her groomed groin in private.

      Quote…”I’m a good man…hardworking and a provider.”

      Yup….you work hard at pretending to be a good man….you’re a provider of high class shit sandwiches. Gourmet shit sandwiches,with the expensive mustard and brand name ketchup. You must feel real read when your wife and kids sit down to that feast of shit sandwiches you provide.

      What…..now Michael….has changed his tune…he ain’t having an affair….we chumps are being to hard on him. He doesn’t mind having his ass handed to him,…but we got it all wrong.

      That folks….is how cheaters operate. Those words he wrote…well we misunderstood…that’s right he’s not cheating….never cheated….

      Michael is now clicking on the fog machine…see all that fog….he’s covering his ass with cheater fog….blinding us with that cheater strobe light….this ain’t a disco….and we’re not dancing to his tune.

      We do see

      • Just pretend for a moment that it’s an episode of “Two and a Half Men”.

        Here’s the setup:

        Alan is in the kitchen trying to explain his emotional enmeshment with his friend’s wife to Walden while Berta is cleaning in the kitchen.

        Alan: “I would do anything to make her happy”.

        Walden: “By ‘anything’, you mean sex right?”

        Alan: “No, no it’s not like that. We’ve only met a few times at social gatherings, but I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HER alone”.

        Walden: “Why? To do what”?

        Berta: “He definitely means sex”.

    • He’s seen this “lady” five times at parties, and he’s sure she’s the perfect woman of his dreams? OMG, is Michael 11 years old physically, or only emotionally? Because he sure as hell isn’t “51 years young” with that level of immaturity. I still say his wife is way better off without this self-absorbed, immature ass hat.

    • So when are all those long talks about their lives happening, eh? Or does texting and FB not count as “seeing each other”? Because things don’t add up here.

    • Michael you sound exactly like my ex narc. He also had a very “chaste emotional affair” and guess what, the woman was married and not interested in my asshat, so guess what again, he had convinced himself he was entitled to anything better than me and had a physical affair with the first howorker available. All because of the fantasy. Are you the same guy who was looking for sympathy a few posts back because your wife cheated? I think you are a poser, and I really think you are a cheater. You sound exactly like my ex.

    • Please inform Mike that an Emotional Affair, like the one he is desperately fantasing about, IS CHEATING.

      Let him know that emotionally checking out from his wife and kids, and checking into someone else does not require penile penetration.

      What he lacks are boundaries. If he can’t tell his wife he’s hot for someone, someone that he is pursuing, then he has crossed a boundary that is unacceptable in a committed relationship. Which is why he sucks already.

    • Wait, what? He’s seen her less than five times? Well, then either there’s a lotta wild texting going on (texting affairs are so pathetic and so sleazy) or they’re writing letters or something. How could they have developed an emotional affair? This makes me think that he is so childish. Is this “lady” perhaps the victim of Michael’s creeptacular text stalking? Something isn’t right with this picture.

    • wait a second! he said “I’ve never slept with her” now, “I didn’t sleep with her” would’ve been sufficient enough to get this across, but when he use the word “never” my antennas went up quickly! I heard that from my low life cheating scum ex many times ” I’ve never slept with her” that word “NEVER” and he of course didn’t sleep with her, DUH!! why would they sleep when they could just fuck? and it turns out while my ex declared, protested and got mad at me and said many times “I’ve never slept with her” it turns out he fucked that married ho-worker for over 3 years. Over compensating here with “never” ?? hmmmm

      • I am call bullshit on him stopping it. and I am pissed he used my name why not Mike or dick face or etc etc

  • But he wrote for advice on a site created for people whose lives have been turned upside down by infidelity and asked PERMISSION to cheat. Either he has the IQ of a hamster or he is a bona fide narcissist or, most likely, both. And he just knows he is in love with her after being with her only enough times to count on one hand (at least, I think that what he is trying to say)? It just doesn’t add up.

    • They have “been talking a long time” or “5 or fewer times like when he asked her to pass the salad tongs at neighborhood BBQs”, and they have a connection, but he only kissed her on the cheek once while saying goodbye (is he not American? Is he European or something? Or is he stuck out in the Hamptons or someplace else where a dry peck on the cheek is an “aloha” type thing).

      Mad Hatter Tea Party maybe? Definitely somewhere down the rabbit hole.

        • Do we need to insult hamsters? Lol. My ex as he walked out and blew up our 22 year marriage, “we haven’t slept together”. Uh yeah like he spent every spare moment texting, calling, and scheduling vacations weekends away and concerts pencilled into his daily planner. Would love to have wife’s take on her marriage. Can anybody say DISENGAGED? Who are these people?!?

  • Michael doesn’t realize that he has already betrayed his wife by falling in love with this “lady” and obsessing about her. His letter was not about, “Help me, I’m struggling. I have feelings for this woman but don’t want to hurt my wife;” it was about, “Hey, I know affairs are wrong and I might seem like a bad guy, but I’m really not, because mine is a special case, here is why, and I want you to reassure me that I’m not a bad guy.”

    If Michael is so willing to let his wife and children go for some unrequited obsession of a woman he doesn’t seem to know that well, what would he do if a woman reciprocates? The only reason his relationship with this “lady” hasn’t gone further is because she has put a stop to it. I think his wife deserves to know what kind of person Michael is and the potential danger he is posing to her mental, emotional and physical well-being.

    • My ex did to me what Mickey is doing to his wife. Ex “fell in love” with another woman, but since he didn’t have sex with her (yet), he didn’t feel that it was ‘cheating’. The reason he told me about her was because he WANTED to have sex with her, and didn’t want to ‘cheat’ on me. In fact, he opened up the dialogue by saying, “Don’t worry. I’m not CHEATING on you.”

      I was DEVASTATED when he told me about her, and WHY he wanted to end the decent (so I thought…) 4+ year relationship we had. It’s been over 2 years, and I’m STILL recovering.

      Mikey, if you TRULY don’t believe that you’re having an emotional affair, TELL YOUR WIFE. Tell your wife that you’re “in love” with another woman, and wait for her reaction. I can guarantee you that your wife won’t take it very well (understatement).

      Also, put YOURSELF in your wife’s shoes. Pretend that your wife has just told you that she’s “in love” with another man, but hasn’t had sex with him yet. But she WANTS to. I’m willing to bet that you’d be DEVASTATED upon hearing that news. You would be sad, angry, confused, bewildered, physically sick, shocked, tearful, shaking, etc. If you don’t believe it, just visit some of the other popular sites that have forums about infidelity. Read page after page about how MEN have coped with their wives “falling in love” with someone else, even if there was no PHYSICAL involvement (yet). Read how those men have desperately done the “pick me” dance, only to have failed. Read about how HELPLESS, OUT OF CONTROL and POWERLESS these men feel to be competing in a no-win situation. Read about the pain and anguish they’ve experienced…how their jobs and families have suffered because they’re spending much of their waking moments searching the internet for answers…how they discovered the term “emotional affair”, and that they learn that ALL affairs are not necessarily PHYSICAL…how emotional affairs can be MUCH MORE DAMAGING than physical affairs. Go ahead, Michael. I DARE you to take my suggestions. Like most cheaters, I’m sure you’re too much of a COWARD to take me up on my suggestions…

      And after you’ve finished reading all of those stories (which should keep you busy for a few months), go and get a copy of “Not Just Friends” by Shirley Glass and read it from cover to cover. It’s truly an eye-opener. Many people have started reading that book with the same mindset as YOU, only to FINISH the book and realize that uh, yeah…they ARE having (had) and emotional affair, that emotional affairs ARE cheating, and that emotional affairs are often WORSE than physical affairs.

      Michael, you remind me of a man who comes to a forum and tells the members that he belittles, is condescending, insults, gaslights and lies to his wife…but he’s NOT an “abuser”. Or someone who “only” takes money from the register at work, but he’s not a “thief” because he didn’t rob a bank.

      An emotional affair isn’t some new internet ‘craze’. It’s very, very real, and very, very damaging.

      So, with all of this in mind, tell your wife about your feelings for this other woman… IF you have the 51-year-old-manscaped-balls to do so. Tell her, and then be prepared for the MASSIVE fall-out.

      G.

      • Gypsy, my XH did a similar thing to me, too. At first he told me ILBINILWY, he wants out of this marriage because I’ve neglected him and am such a horrible wife for reasons X, Y and Z, and volunteered that he has been “faithful” to me. I didn’t find out until a couple of months later that he had already started an “emotional affair” (his words), but he said it hadn’t yet turned physical (but not for his lack of trying).

        I wondered, why would XH tell me he wants out of the marriage without telling me about of the affair? I think he wanted to be able to say to himself (and others) that we we were “separated” before he got physical with his schmoopie, so that he could say that he was “faithful” and maintain his image (even to himself) of being a “good guy,” that he did nothing wrong because the marriage was already over. I still get emails from him saying that he’s “not a bad guy.”

    • And financial well being. Cause this guy is dying to throw that away too. Been there, done that. And still dealing.

  • Michael– You have been sucked in by this woman. She is throwing all kinds of kibble at you because she needs someone right now to make her feel good about her herself. This is an emotional affair. My husband had one. It led to a sexual affair and that is why he is my STBX Husband.

    His emotional affair was with a coworker. She was on her second marriage, had 4 kids and she was screwing someone at work as well. My husband is a Narc. I’ve determined that she is a special kind of narc who needs kibbles from everyone that she sucks into her orbit. In fact I think that she feels she is the special unicorn that kibbles and sparkles revolve around.

    She inserted herself into my life and changed it forever. I approached stbx about counseling. He told me there was nothing wrong with our marriage. WTF?!

    Thanks to CL I learned that I fed him kibbles and danced my ass off for over a year. I went to counseling to save the marriage – I learned a lot of valuable information about emotional abuse, verbal abuse, narcs, emotional affairs, etc. Guess what ? I verified that I was married to a cheating sociopath who was not only abusing me, but the kids as well. I interviewed lawyers, saved money and then served him with divorce papers.

    I’ll never forget the look on his face when I got home from work the day he got the papers. He looked at me with his puppy dog eyes and asked why I didn’t talk to him about it first. I can’t tell you the number of times I asked him to talk about it, then he would shut me out and not talk to me for weeks.

    I filed three years ago and he still won’t settle so we can officially be divorced. Three years later he still tries to control me. Three years later he still thinks I’m his cake and should say how high when he says jump.

    The point is you need to be straight with your wife. Man up and either tell her you want counseling or tell her its over. You can’t have both. Honestly I don’t think your EA partner will want you when it is all finished either.

    BTW – my stbx’s howorker, filed for divorce from husband #2, charged the coworker boyfriend with sexual harassment at work and has since married husband #3. My stbx took our kids to her wedding, took the happy couple to the airport and stayed with her kids while the happy couple was on their honeymoon. STBX is definitely a LOSER CHUMP!

      • Same here, especially the observation, “…she feels she is the special unicorn that kibbles and sparkles revolve around.” What still confuses me is how two narcissists can be in a relationship with one another. Don’t they both just suck the oxygen out of the room? This is something I wonder about more than I should!

        • They Love fucking with Eachother’s Heads… Jeez..Which of Us can Fuck with The OTHER’s Head Worse…
          They Just Compete with Eachother..and the Whole Lot of Innocents get Pulled into THEIR Game…
          Fucking SICKOs..Really.

          • Hollywood marriages Between Two stars in Love with Themselves…
            You KNOW how long they Last….
            Honestly, it’s their OWN HELL they Create for Themselves…gotta drag in some non-narcisstic ” new blood” that doesn’t YET Realize Their Shit DOES Stink…and HORRIBLY.

        • Yes, I have been wondering about this two. I wonder if one ends up being more dominant/demanding than the other and the other one has to cater to that one? I think that might be what is going on with my ex and the OW.

  • MIchael – you are simply not a good friend or husband. Period. GOOD people don’t do this, what you’re doing. My now EX was a good person – or so I thought. You simply don’t need to be cruel and that’s what you are doing. OH BUT YOU AREN’T HAPPY! Because that trumps all else. PLease please spare you’re wife the extra humiliation. You simply don’t even understand how completely obliterating it is to find out you were betrayed in such a horrific manner.

  • Happiness comes from inside YOU, not from someone else. I know you like the way you feel around her, but that’s a cop-out. You’re avoiding something nagging within yourSELF. It’s not your wife, it’s you. Figure that out.

  • Michael sure has a lot of great words and phrases to describe himself, along with his fantasy woman whom he really does not know outside the setting of a party. Sounds like a typical CHEATER to me, putting the usual blame on his wife, making himself out to be some sort of saint.

    Michael, I’ll bet your WIFE would be better off without you, but you really should give her the option to decide that. My guess is you won’t though, because you have the heart of a cheater, even if you haven’t yet put the pedal to the metal. And by the way, your “perfect woman” is only that because you really have no history or relationship with her. If your maturity level was past junior high, you would realize that. Spend a couple years with Ms Fantasy, and you’ll discover she farts, shits, has morning breath, and GOD FORBID SOMETIMES DOESN’T APPRECIATE YOUR EVERY LITTLE MOVE.

    I only hope Mrs Michael realizes her husband is having an emotional affair and throws him out without bothering with the pick me dance or bogus reconciliation. Because my guess is the fantasy woman/wife of a friend isn’t going to be there with Michael, and he will be out in the cold, sadly proclaiming what a poor sausage he is, and looking for someone new to tell him how WONDERFUL he is, sigh.

    If this comes across as harsh, I’m not sorry. Michael spouts the same lines, the same blame, the same quest for fantasy relationship, the same “poor me” story that every other cheater spouts. He even admits he’d be balling this friend’s wife if she would only let him. Yuck, Michael is a pig, a horrible friend and likely a lousy husband.

  • Rumble kitty I think wrote “Just a couple of middle aged frauds who are dumpster diving for kibbles.” How perfect !!!
    Michael fancies itself as Heathcliffe character in Wuthering Heights WTF !!!
    And PF what genius you write !! Hail PF 🙂
    Anyway, all said and done you know where this freak is headed? Straight to where his little dick will lead him without a thought to ANYTHING anyone of us has shared here. We all know the drill we’ve all tried to avert our own disasters with our own executioners !!! TOO LATE I SAY.
    Hey Heathcliffe how about you do your wife and kids a favour and walk in front of a bus today…. This way you can give the poor woman a decent and respectful going away gift instead of what YOU’VE LINED UP FOR HER!!!!! Prick!!! Sorry but I’ve had a hard night after reading this its brought all their crap up and I refuse to buy into any of it.

    • “Rumble kitty I think wrote “Just a couple of middle aged frauds who are dumpster diving for kibbles.” How perfect”

      Ha! More like “CUM-ster diving”!!

      G.

  • Ya’ll…… IF (and it is a BIG if) Michael has told the entire truth to CL offline, then there is still hope for him to see where he is headed, and clean up his act before he steps off into deep sh*t by wrecking the lives of his family.

    I am still of the opinion that he and his wife need marriage counseling and possibly individual. He expressed having chronic frustrations about something. His reasons may not be rational or realistic, but I don’t think his wife is the one to lower the boom and “tell him like it is” at this point in time.

    It is possible that his wife may be taking him for granted to some extent…. or they could both might be doing that. ( A successful marriage takes vigilance and INTENTIONALITY. It doesn’t just run on auto-pilot.)

    Or it may be nothing more than the sexual fantasies that strike all of us from time to time but which we KNOW better than to keep indulging in… or to act on.

    Believe me when I say there are some people (men included) who are so damned naïve that they confuse infatuation with “love.” And somebody with objectivity might need to strongly clarify the difference for him

    And then again, he could be a troll…

    The fact remains that whatever his intentions here are, he has been given a highly useful “earful” of sound advice and a graphic picture of the ugliness of life after infidelity.

    It’s all we can do. And if he is on the up-and-up; he’ll pay attention.

  • No men and I mean no men will leave his wife, fiancé, girlfriend etc. no matter how unhappy they claim to be, unless there is already a woman in the picture, ALWAYS and 1000% percent!

    The cheaters reminds me of monkeys, they will never let go of a branch until they get a hold of another one!

    • Nicolette14, my ex husband swore on a stack of Bibles there wasn’t anyone else when he pushed me out. Our daughter was getting married 6 months later and her fiancé’s Mother is the biggest tramp this side of the black stump. She is 5 years younger than me. Strangely, 2 weeks after I was gotten rid of, she left her boyfriend whom she had met on RSVP. I was told by my own son that it was purely a coincidence. My eye.

        • He is 5 ft 9 ins tall and she is 6 ft 2 ins tall. He would have to have been put up to it or use a step ladder!! He makes my skin crawl.

          • Oh my…I wonder what they look like standing next to each other, if or when she wears any heels lol, can you even imagine?? 😉
            I hear you on the “he makes your skin crawl” part when it comes to ex, same here.

    • Umm… yes. Men leave their wives for legitimate reasons… just like women sometimes leave men for legitimate reasons.

      I think men tend to hang on a lot longer in many cases, though, because there are generally more economic disincentives (alimony, child support, etc). But there are crappy, abusive wives, and men do leave them. Sometimes they wait until their children are grown if they have children.

      Somebody who leaves for somebody else, though, is just an asshat cheater.

      It’s not a male thing. It’s a cheater thing.

      • well you maybe right TimeHeals, maybe in your case and very rare others, but as of today I have yet to see one man leave their woman, without another woman being in the picture first…

      • One thing for sure,those male cheaters who leaved their wives for another woman would often drop to their knees begging for forgiveness once their wives started the divorce proceedings.It’s precisely the reason I always felt confused when male cheaters said they cheated because they’re unhappy.If so? Why is it so hard for them to just let their wives or girlfriends go and lives freely as a single woman?
        My ex boyfriend cheated and yes he use the “I’m not happpy with you” excuse but then……
        when I want to move on,all of sudden he begged me to take him back.And no,he doesn’t have to worry about child support,alimony because we’re not even married.Speaking about female cheaters,I’ve rarely seen them begging to get back with their jilted ex….just from my experience.

  • Yep, the male of the species can’t do without that “soft landing”. With respect to the “I love you but am not in love with you…” D-Day Speech, Dr. Frank Pittman articulated it this way, “Invariably there is another woman.. either in his head or in his bed.”

    • Based on your experience with … wait for it… wait for it… a cheater. sigh.

      Really, misandry isn’t very attractive. I’d work on that if I were you guys.

      • Nope, based on (among others) Dr. Pittman’s experiences with literally thousands of divorcing people and their situations during those divorces. Men who get divorces are significantly more prone to take out insurance against being alone. Attribute that propensity to whatever motive and drive that you will….but it is what it is.

        • I believe the well-worn idiom, “women grieve, men replace” speaks to that fact. In death, cheating or otherwise.

          • True,and yet with all these men who claimed marriage are oppressive for them and monogamy is not for them,they’re the one who often keep remarrying at higher rate than women.Such hypocrites make it sound as if women the one who held a gun to their head for forcing them to drop on their knees and propose.Sorry if this sound misandric but then again I’ve read some misogynistic comment on this website so we’re balanced each other out…

      • Thank you for saying that, TimeHeals. I’ve been with CL from the beginning, but the misandry on this comment board is getting really out of hand, and has been for months (a general observation, that’s not directed at anyone or any comment in particular). I agree Michael is a huuuuuuge dickhead with a lot of issues, but he’s not the one who ruined your lives, ladies, please stop projecting your anger on him and everyone with a penis. We get/got chumped too. An asshole is an asshole no matter the gender.

        • I agree with you Scotty. Everyone enough with the gender stereotyping! As for men never leaving unless they’ve got another one lined up — HEY, my HUSBAND left a cheater — and I met him AFTER the divorce.

          The problem isn’t men this, women that, it’s cheaters. It’s entitlement. Assholes come in lots of sizes. Please don’t be one on my board. I don’t have time to moderate every freaking comment. Thank you.

        • Dude yea we did get chumped man up and let the girls & US GUYS vent. I was chumped and I projected on here thank God it was here ,,,,,,,,,,,,and not to an innocent ,,,,,,

          ok carry on sorry bout that

          • I’m sorry Michael and Scotty! I say “he” cause he was, but I don’t (consciously?) generalize about he’s or she’s or same sex couples. I can see how it would feel alienating. Misandry sounds like animal husbandry.

  • It seems like fantasy life has become a real problem especially for men. Once the “friendship” takes a turn to fantasy in a man’s mind, it is over–if he feeds this fantasy at all, he is going to do his best to make it a reality. If indeed he has not slept with this woman it is because she is stopping it, not because he has any control of himself whatsoever. (Michael)
    Fantasy & vision are crucial to art and progression, but sexual fantasy is behind MANY crimes. Fantasies fed to the point that men will commit crimes to feed them, rape, kill etc. My point is fantasy can be a very dangerous thing to feed, it seems to take on a life of it’s own. I have to agree that Mike only needs the opportunity….his mind is made up & he has been feeding the “monster” that only is focused on one thing. Getting her in bed to make his fantasy complete. I doubt we will change his course unless rejected.
    With all the porn,