Dear Chump Lady, What’s your take on religious OW?
Hi Chump Lady,
I am trying my hardest to get past the OW. She is very religious, wears big chunky crosses, quotes scripture, always has a biblical answer. Makes me question if that is one of the reasons I wasn’t “good enough.”
My brain tells me that is bullshit, my heart is not as easily convinced. Soon-to-be-ex is asking the girls (13 and 15) to not be too judgmental about what he has done. He writes by text only of course as he can’t bear to tell them anything about this to their faces.
Part of me says I should encourage them to forgive him and another part says hell no, he does not deserve it. I am such a chump; have been so “nice” to him during our relationship and know I need to get my anger up.
Would love your take on the religious OW.
Anne
Dear Anne,
We have a name for those folks here — the Jesus Cheaters. Yeah, it’s a thing, I’m sorry. But as Abraham Lincoln said: “How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.”
She can call herself a Christian, wear chunky crosses, and quote Scripture. Doesn’t make her a Christian. Calling adultery Christian doesn’t make it Christian. (In fact there’s a whole commandment against that.) It’s still a dog leg. You can’t dress this shit up.
One giveaway with the Jesus Cheaters is they’re very anti-judgment. Forget the God of the Old Testament and his mercurial, smiting ways. They dig New Testament Jesus. Some groovy dude who’s all “ye without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus the all forgiving. He’s like this heavy duty spackle. Oh hey, can’t call me out on my shit — Jesus loves me! Jesus spackle makes an impenetrable forcefield.
“I don’t forgive you.”
“So what? God does.”
Yep, you don’t trump God. God for the win!
In my opinion, nothing is more narcissistic than speaking for God. How the hell do you know if God’s forgiven you? It’s not like He posts his grades online. Oh crap, I got a D minus in character. Guess I’m going to have to be reincarnated and take the test again.
No, all these things are a matter of faith. And not just Christian faith. I’m sure there are Mohammad Cheaters and Krishna Cheaters… every religion has its hypocrites. In my opinion, the best you can do is judge for yourself. Yes, JUDGE. God gave you moral sense, so use it. Is fucking another woman’s husband something Jesus would do?
No, I don’t think so.
And I’m just a lapsed Methodist preacher’s kid, but if I recall my father’s sermons correctly (I probably don’t… I spent much of the time drawing cartoons with the offertory pencil) Jesus did some judging — money lenders, rich people, hypocrites. He wasn’t a big fan. In fact, if he aligned himself with anyone — it was society’s chumps. The underdogs, smelly fishermen, poor Jews. I don’t think Jesus hung out with a lot of smug people. That’s just my sense as someone without a Divinity degree.
It doesn’t really matter what your ex or the OW call themselves. They can be members of the Furry Fandom for all you care. You know what they did, you know right from wrong, and you’re not okay with it. You’re especially not okay with it — and shouldn’t feel a need for forgive it — because THEY DON’T THINK THEY DID ANYTHING WRONG. It’s hard to forgive someone who’s not one damn bit sorry. Who hasn’t made any sort of restitution, and who keeps committing the same damn sin.
You can detach from such a person, you can not wish them dead, and be “meh” (this is my personal idea of forgiveness) — but you don’t have spackle for them. (Jesus is on that.) It’s not your job to tell your daughters how to feel about their dad. That relationship is their responsibility, and they’ll figure it out in time. All you can do is speak your truth — dad cheated with Ms. Jesus Freak, and it’s not okay with you, but you’re moving on with your life, because you don’t take abuse off anyone. Not even someone who quotes scripture.
“A faith without works is dead.” Live your faith. Live your values.
I love it! My ex hole and his “new old wife” She is 12 years older than him and 14 years older than me, go to a mega church 30 miles away and act so pious. I guess they think they can run away together and start a new fantasy life for them…you CANNOT RUN AWAY FROM GOD!!!
“So convenient a thing is it to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do.” – Benjamin Franklin
wow, TimeHeals, and I was just going to say that there is no limit to our ability to self justify….you said it much more eloquently!
When I confronted someone I loved, and who I thought loved me and my kids, and who is Miss MoralPants, about her continued friendship with the OW, like, really? she said to me, have you ever heard about hate the sin, love the sinner? And I just had to say, yeah. Nah. That’s bullshit. I don’t think so.
Values are values. The moral compass. They shouldn’t change no matter what our id says we deserve. And actions have consequences.
Truly, one of the hardest parts of all of this for myself and my kids. How people who say they believe in certain things…until, of course, they change their mind and ‘want what the heart wants.’ Or don’t have the courage to stand up for what is right. Liars, hypocrites, cowards….very frustrating. Very disappointing.
Jerseygirl, what your friend said is just another betrayal. She could hate the sin and stay away from the sinner, who had devastated her friend and her friend’s kids. It’s sad to find out that some people who claim to love us–starting with the cheater, and moving through in-laws and friends–really just don’t. But it’s an opportunity to find out whom we can trust, who cares enough to stand up for us. Who’s willing to listen to us in month 6 or at the end of a year. Those are forever friends.
“Hate the sin, love the sinner.”
Yes, always hate the sin. But to those who use this concept to justify lack of boundaries or their own lack of courage in standing up to the sinner, I would say one of the best ways to show love is to hold someone accountable (you don’t have to be hateful to do that, but you can take a stand). You can love someone, but not be in relationship with them or be reconciled to them.
Many of your addiction support groups have this as a concept; I may love my drug addicted family member, but while she is using, I cannot be around her. Tell your “friend” that the most loving thing she could do for the OW is to explain to her that what she did is wrong, and that while she continues in that behavior, you will be loving her from a distance and praying for her.
Loving your kid still means he/she is held accountable for breaking a vase and lying to you about it.
That’s exactly what I meant greengirl – loving someone isn’t ignoring sinful behavior, but holding someone accountable – for their own good.
“Values are values. The moral compass. They shouldn’t change no matter what our id says we deserve.”
Ooooo Jerseygirl. Me LIKEY!!!!
I’m sure the OW doesn’t see it that way if she’s really deeply embedded in that culture.
That’s the thing about narcissistic egoism; it dresses itself up in cliches like “Everything happens for a reason”, “When God closes a door, He opens a window”, “It’s all part of God’s Plan”, “There are two sides to every story’, and so on.
And it’s not even necessarily religious: alt, ‘When one door closes, another one opens’ and ‘Walk a mile in my shoes’, for example. Just take God out, change a few words, or even adopt a more nihilistic rationalization , and you can create a perfectly agnostic or materialistic narrative which basically rationalizes your *specialness* complete with caveats and escape clauses, become the hero/victim in your own personal narrative, and fully compartmentalize your worst behavior.
IMO, I don’t think it pays to sit around forecasting biblical judgment or waiting for somebody to get run over by the Karma Bus. I suppose it’s comforting to our sense of justice to see somebody who has wronged us “foisted on their own petard”, but the more important thing, IMO, is to just be glad they aren’t around feeling free to completely disregard their hurtful behavior toward you and treat you like some walk-on or extra in whatever movie they think they are the starring in. Usually, that movie sucks anyway, but even if there are a lot of people who think that movie is great, you know it’s all in the editing really, so just be glad you are no longer being cast in their sucky movie 🙂
TimeHeals nails it! WOW great post!!
I remember YEARS ago my very Catholic boyfriend saying to me “I feel sorry for you, because I can go to confession and I will be all safe in heaven but you are going to burn in hell for what we have done…..”
Some afterglow huh….
Somehow I cant see Jesus being up for a threesome.
Mel Gibson said something along those lines about his first wife, that he felt bad because he, as a Catholic, would go to heaven, while she would not because she was Protestant (or similar).
Anyway, Mel Gibson is a racist, cheating, sexist asshole. His first wife seems pretty ok.
Anne, CL is right, it’s healthy of you to judge their actions as being wrong because they ARE WRONG. The fact that they go to church and pray frequently while they cheat and destroy your family doesn’t make them sanctified, justified, or restituted, it just makes them filthy hypocrites.
IMO, the cheaters who try to cloak their evil with religion are some of the slimiest of the slime of humanity.
Stay strong.
My big issue with religion since my breakup (my XW works in the church) has been essentially “God still cares about me, right? Then why is the XW being rewarded for what she did? When is it going to turn my way?” It’s one of the toughest things I’ve had to deal with in this whole thing.
I don’t have a problem with religion, I have a problem with people who preach one thing and do another. Rules still matter, don’t they?
CW,
That must be incredibly painful. I can only say (growing up and watching “religious people” get away with stuff all the time) that God isn’t fooled, and His judgement is perfect. Don’t get God’s people (who are a hot mess sometimes) confused with God himself – who will never fail you.
I remember being told that I may never see truth or justice “this side of heaven”. I know that’s a long time to wait – but until then, just keep working toward “meh”. Hugs to you.
They do. But they can be ignored. Hence hypocrites.
My biggest problem with religion is when it’s twisted to justify being an asshole.
Oh my ex is doing the Baptist road now, and the dunking in the river stuff and all that with his new girl. Trouble is he also cheated with a guy. I don’t think the Baptist are big on bi- sexuality. Yet the 3 of them are all very smug and above everything as they are all Christians. My kids don’t want to do Sunday morning with them when they run off to Church. (Yes girlfriend is not aware of the boyfriend actually being a real boyfriend) I just keep watching the sideshow unfold – it is better than television.
I agree with Hawk, cloaking their evil with religion are some of the slimiest of the slime
These are not Christians. I hope you are explaining the difference to your kids. This could really influence then negatively if their views are soured by these idiots.
CL, I know that you have asked those of us who are not Chumps to stay off the site however this one got me. I have two friends, married forever, who are living their Christian beliefs every day. The idea of adultery by either one of them is an abomination. I repeat an abomination. They live such clean, decent lives, they are open books. These two are active in their church they are known privately and publicly by everyone in their town. There are no hidden secrets, nothing. They have loved each other since they were teenagers. If I could tell you the names here I would. They all beloved by everyone.
Watch tv, channel ID. There you will find cheating by those who lead churches, you have those preachers, ministers, pastors who murder their wives because of the other woman. There is nothing more heinous than a person who stands in front of others and professes deep belief all the while committing many of the sins in the 10 Commandments. How dare this man do this to you and your children and called himself a Christian!!!
“There is nothing more heinous than a person who stands in front of others and professes deep belief all the while committing many of the sins in the 10 Commandments.”
Watcher,
I agree. Narcissists who select church structure for their forum are the lowest of the low. It happens in many venues, but what more perfect setting to be all sparkly-narc, tell people exactly what they want to hear, and gain a cult following?
PS. Don’t consider myself a “chump” either. Temporarily victimized but not a chronic victim. People who are victimized and keep going back for more are no longer victims; they have become volunteers. But there are some for whom it is so much easier to keep on ruminating and blaming the abuser for what was ultimately the result of personal volunteerism. We all live or die by our own decisions, and as such make mistakes; but, quite frankly, the universe doesn’t owe any of us a damned thing.
Hmm, I don’t think Chumps have to be cheated on tons of times. My X cheated on my twice with the same girl, so I guess that’s really once but since I thought it was over and found more evidence of it 6 months later it seemed like two separate events. My take on the definition of Chump is a) that the Chump is way too nice. Way too accommodating, and usually extremely giving and selfless (often mirroring how they saw their parent’s marriage) and b) cheater is not just your average cheater. Some of the Chumps here got suddenly abandoned and that sucks in its own way, but most of us have ongoing dealings with our crazy Xs or STBXs. They are hysterical, they are disordered, most of them have real personality disorders. We find them in the basement sawing through old furniture to relieve the rage, they tell us everything is our fault and then curl up in the shower in the fetal position and sing REM songs, this post is about how they use Jesus against us. It’s not the number of times you’ve been victimized that makes you a Chump IMO. It’s a relatively selfless person paired with an extremely disordered, selfish and troubled person. Also don’t judge Chumps on this site who haven’t left yet. Fake reconciliation takes time to work through. The luckiest of us only spent a few months in FR- most people here spent a year or years.
If the cheater only cheats once the chump still has to re-live it until the heartache heals.
And God doesn’t expect us to hang around to be abused by sin:
“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.”
~Matthew 10:14
Thank you! I needed that verse!
Thank you, if they aren’t following Christ they aren’t Christian!
It is pretty messed up. The term for the religious affair partners we’ve been using is “Jesus Cheaters” but I think there’s also the term “sinister minister” for someone who is actually a representative of the church, like a minister, who is involved in adultery.
I don’t know how they reconcile that within themselves. It makes no sense to me. Then again, it shouldn’t make sense. It’s not supposed to. The sheer level of hypocrisy is frustrating though, isn’t it?
I helped stood by my stbx while he did 7 years worth of University to become ordained. He met MOW while at school and the world’s biggest EA developed.
We moved to a new location for his new career and as I was unpacking boxes to a house that I had no right to ( the rectory ) I was told that the marriage was DONE.
I was essentially homeless and penny less because all of our assets had been sold to cover schooling costs!
The ironic thing is that the congregation didn’t question this or really skip a beat.
I used a women’s shelter and with the help of real Christians was given support and a chance to get back on my feet.
MOW is divorcing her H and I hope that they can live with themselves!
I have it from good authority that it did go PA at some point and that he was out ” exploring his sexuality ” while I was home raising our kids ( he was at school reliving his lost youth), but I don ‘t give a rat’s ass any more.
What really blows my mind is that this seams to be normal and that no one blinks an eye.
It brings back Eddy Izzard and his “cake or death” routine….
I think I will take the death since the cake eaters are all going south to that burny place, especially the Jesus Cheaters!
Lisah you just reminded me of a story I hadn’t thought of for years, long before I heard the word “narcissist. I had a friend from a wealthy family whose sister married a “country boy” that wanted to be a doctor (very bright.) She was an heiress, but also a stand up person and a homemaker extraordinaire who made pancakes in the shapes of her children’s initials, kept a spotless (and BIG) home, baked bread & cookies, etc. They married at 21 (both same age) She supported him in school until he was 37!! At which time he became a neurosurgeon. Within six months he had run off with a Vegas showgirl, and last I heard, the kids had not seen him in years. She also got NO benefit, just bills and a self-absorbed husband who was beyond anal (shirts graduated in color in the closet, socks rolled & graduated in color in his drawers, etc.) Anyhow, even though people of the cloth or “Jesus Cheaters is more of a mindscrew, this poor woman through 16 years of school just to be left. As you can imagine, school for neurosurgery is no picnic & he wasn’t around much. And then the humiliation of a Vegas showgirl!! Crap, it is just horrible what people do to each other!!
I am so sorry to hear of this! I have been screwed by people professing Christianity, and I can tell you is hurts vey badly. You do expect more from them….and they usually have a hand in making sure you respect & trust them beyond that of mortal man.
Wow, I can’t believe that! Or that even the diocese couldn’t have come up for something for support.
There is a group on Europe called “broken rites” that offers shelter and assistance for clergy spouses in distress.
Nothing here on Canada.
Working on that – I did get to keep my benifits, but I don ‘t get any financial support in any direction.
It has been tough – I honestly think he wanted me to suffer greatly.
But I am FINE despite him, the diocese and organized religion.
MOW ‘ s H is in the same boat.
La la la la la
Wow, I’d never heard of that. We do need that, but I don’t know if a country as big geographically but as sparsely populated as Canada would have the volunteer base to sustain that?
We are a few Canadian pastor’s wife-chumps here on the site.
There is a 70 percent divorce rate within clergy marriages. So far we have established IC for spouses in need, but I feel that there should be more. Maybe funding through friends of the Bishop and a safe house of sorts. My x went through what one would call a MLC – it got pretty ugly.
If nothing else I am offering myself as support to anyone else who finds themselves in this position within the church. And there are a few 🙁
Seems like the congregation should have made him leave the rectory until you could find someplace else. Actually, it seems like he should have offered it and should be paying you back financially for the investment in his education without you having to ask.
Lisah, this made me feel sick! You were USED. I hope you’ve built a better life, sans the user, evil, phony minister! I’m sure your family’s life is much better without him in it. It just makes my blood boil, these people who wait til their education is complete, and then drop a bomb.
This post is spot on for me. The OW posts daily scripture to her twitter and facebook page and then posts about her love of her live (my now ex) but was current in their 2 1/2 year relationship being everything….while we were married and I was in the dark. Posts scripture, then posts about loving to be snuggled up to Mr. Snores-a-lot…. Jesus Cheater…Amen Sistah
my XH posts scripture on his FB everywhere. He apparently found Jesus with his GF a few years ago when they moved in together and started attending church – of course that was AFTER his wife (not me) moved out after she found out about GF and her pregnancy.
I can believe that people find comfort or deepen faith when life is really tough and you’re at bottom.
But, 2 year later – after GF and their baby fled to another state from his – under a restraining order – he made a 21 year old single mom (he was 45) his third wife – after knowing her FIVE days – and justifies it to our kids “God, told us to do this. He brought us together.” Yep, God apparently told them to get married on their second date. BTW – she too loaded up the car a couple years later and fled to another state with her young daughter.
That would be his inner god speaking…
Narcissists are God’s unto themselves.
My point exactly…
Jesus has a lot to say about adultery and divorce and there are so many scriptures in regards to continuing in your sin. You aren’t judging when you see a behavior that is so clearly stated in the bible labeled as sin. But as CL states so many people, Christian and non Christian love to misquote the bible in terms of judging. We are after all suppose to use common sense.
My youngest is very angry with his dad moving toward indifference. I at one time encouraged him to forgive his dad, but his relationship with his dad is his. His father was a complete ass hole to my son so their relationship has it’s own memories. For me to interject unless asked to do so, denies his history with his father. So far now, Dad is a jerk. Later on hopefully he will start to see him only as a man with faults. Whether or not distance and time will allow family gatherings and Kodak moments with his children and grandchildren is not my business.
“So far now, Dad is a jerk. Later on hopefully he will start to see him only as a man with faults”
Did I just spackle? If his dad continues to be a jerk, so be it!
I call SPACKLE! Later on I hope his dad becomes just a man with faults (not bloody likely, but hey, miracles happen, I guess), but right now he IS a jerk! Not up to you to give your kid that opinion, but NOT up to you to spackle either.
And I’m betting the jerk doesn’t give a fuck about family gatherings and Kodak moments with his kids or grandkids, either, unless they’re just to make him look good. You’re confounding what YOU know is valuable, with what they actually value.
I’m getting there. He is a jerk, a jerk who loves Kodak moments because they do make him look good and he is all about image…but deep down inside he’d love to have everyone forget his behavior and rally around him, while eagerly waiting for his pearls of wisdom. Cheater pants skipped out on the classes about developing deep relationships. My role in this grand scheme of things was to be the social conduit and kid magnet. Now that I’m out of the picture….
I don’t think that is spackle, Jinx! That is recognition that your kid’s relationship with their dad is theirs to manage. That you acknowledge that -regardless of your opinion, which I suspect is like mine-ex is a sperm donor with a Napoleon Complex-is a Good Thing in my book, As long as we realize there is a point where compassion backfires on us, or should not be wasted, I think that is healthy.
My stbx thought the dad card entitled him to all types of benefits regardless of his behavior. Right now he does not get a pass or a “get out of jail free” card. Even though divorce is painful, my kid tells me “I’m sorry that dad’s a jerk but I’m glad that you are teaching him that we are an option.”
Sorry should say we are NOT an option!
My non-remorseful cheater wife has become a devoted churchgoer recently. I’d be curious as to what all that’s about if I had the energy, but you know, I just don’t.
I’d say going to church is just spackle to cover up the cracks where the empathy and decency should be.
The same reason cheaters buy new cars or go to Disneyland after refusing to go for years – image management.
“See, she found God. She’s learning. She’ll be a better person now… etc. etc.”
She’s afraid of reaping what she has sown and wants God to bless her mess. God is all about order and cheating is about chaos. Sometimes cheaters feel as though they can escape the coming judgment/reaping if they put a little god or say a little prayer over it.
If cheaters truly or remorseful or repentant they would stop sinning. Even after repenting you still suffer the consequences of your behavior. The baby mama or the std won’t go away just because you recognize the degradation of your acts. A lot of the new birth is encouraged by fear and seldom last.
My wife is no longer cheating (I believe), but maybe she’s trying if God can get her out of the mess she’s made
People love to conveniently forget Jesus’ very last words to the woman caught in adultery and whom He had saved from being stoned to death.
Jesus said, “….Go and sin no more.”
And there is no record anywhere of Him stuttering !
notyou – Amen! My Ex adds little scripture verses to the end of every email, insists on taking our younger son to church with him every other Sunday (but rarely spends time with him during the week or Fri/Sat nights…those are reserved for the mistress/GF), and generally makes a huge show of how he and his GF are such committed Christians. It has really taken a toll on my personal faith over the last two years since he abruptly walked out on a 20 year marriage. Our older son refuses to attend church now, and I have stopped attending as well (I do leave a biblical-based divorce recovery class each week – THAT is my “church” now). He has never apologized to me or the our boys for the hurt and pain he caused us – and he continues in his relationship with a woman who was perfectly willing to sleep with a married man. His early conversations with me when I was hurting and barely able to function centered around “God has a new plan for our lives” and “I know God will bless you if you allow me to move on” and “God has forgiven me and I am praying that He will forgive you (for what??)” and other such blather. Translation….my penis wants you to get over yourself and take on full custody of our kids so that I can move into a tiny “man cave” apartment and save all my $ for trips to wine and dine the OW, accept a pittance in child support because you have a stable job, and just move the hell on and act happy so I don’t feel a smidgen of guilt over my behavior.
Nicole, hearing your story is like hearing mine. I have struggled so much with this “Jesus loves me and he died for my sins, past, present and future” and “God wants me to be happy” and “I am chosen by God and forgiven by grace”. My mind knows all this is bullshit but it makes so much noise in my heart. I am so serious about my faith and my love/fear for God so I can’t understand how can a person call himself a Christian and use God’s grace as his shield and excuse for adultery and deceit?
I really needed to read this Jesus Cheaters posts. It helps me knowing I am not the only one dealing with a stupid narcissistic wannabe Christian cheater.
“If cheaters truly are remorseful or repentant they would stop sinning.” EXACTLY! My XH is a Jesus Cheater. He took our son to church last weekend even though he’s currently shacked up with a woman who is married to another man. The hypocrisy burns.
Of course this is the same man who told me that it’s my fault he’s not a believer, because I didn’t do a good enough job of presenting the gospel. This despite the fact that he was a churchgoer his entire life. What a nutter.
Well said, Jinx.
““A faith without works is dead.” Live your faith. Live your values.”
I am not religious but living my values is a huge part of my recovery since I simply can’t make sense of why my husband would hurt me this way. I can’t control his values, but I am much more aware of my own now, and how important they are to me.
There’s a book I’m getting a lot out of these days called “The Happiness Trap” featuring the techniques of ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) and part of the process is realizing the importance of clarifying your values and living in step with them for a more fulfilling life. From The Happiness Trap:
“When you go through life guided by your values, not only do you gain a sense of vitality and joyfulness, but you also experience that life can be rich, full, and meaningful, even when bad things happen.”
I love that quote!
I am going to check out that book, thanks MovingLiquid!
Anne, dear, God is not mocked. Whatever we sow, we reap. I am not sure what your own religious experience has been but I will share mine. I hope it helps.
There are many who claim to be religious who are far from righteous! Jesus encountered this even in his day. The religious folks were the worst! He called them out on it! It is the same today. Some of the very worst offenders are religious. My first husband has 2 PhDs in theology. He molested our preschool aged children. The worst folks often hide themselves like wolves in sheep’s clothing. So don’t worry about how the OW tries to present herself. God sees it. You see it. I bet lots of people around her see it too.
I suggest you keep telling the truth to yourself and your kids. That OW is going to have to reap the consequences of her actions, as will your former husband. The good news for you is that you will also have a harvest from the seeds you sow…like goodness, faithfulness, reliability and love.
Don’t let Jesus Cheaters take advantage of your kind heart. Be strong and courageous. The Jesus I know heals broken hearts.
As for the two cheaters, they are not your responsibility. Maybe someday they will actually listen in church and repent. Maybe not. Either way, they are not your concern. Hope and healing are in your future. Focus on that.
Thanks, Linda…I need to be reminded that I need to turn away from what they are doing and look at the hope and healing that is coming my way.
Anne
I lost my faith when I read the bible in full, I still think there is some good philosophy in there though. Most Christians I’ve met have never actually read the entire bible, they go by whatever they hear in church, especially what they picked up in Sunday school. Hence the whole, ‘loving God’ thing – the bible tells us God was harsh, really harsh. CL is 100% correct, Jesus was a badass, they didn’t kill him because he preached forgiveness, they did it because he wanted to tear the temple down. And the showy kind of prayer wasn’t his thing either. The louder you are about your prayers and your giving to others, the less it is worth.
Just one example is from Matthew; “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6″But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”
And I love how people like to excuse their shit by quoting ONLY the first line of this passage: “”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
That part of his sermon is aimed at the hypocrites and those who have no introspection, and of course at the powerful men running the temples…
As Billy Sunday once said, “Sitting in church don’t make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you an automobile.”
And as Iris DeMent once sang, “God May Forgive You–But I Won’t”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpQNLZRcNA4
Hell, yeah, Iris. And I won’t even try.
Oh., I love Iris DeMent. So great. Never heard this song, but now it’s a favorite! Thanks Nomar!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFG9dwolo3Q
I wanted to add this link.
Oh yeah, and my favorite “Look it Up”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvXiroQPbYY
🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLR7RzyUfuo
Here’s another good one.
I likey, it fits my OW perfectly!
Love these songs. I will have to add them to my list!
Know of a guy who is a well loved principal of a private Christian school, a deacon associated with very conservative affiliated church. He and his wife/family are pillars of their world. I’m kinda bettin’ that the congregation, church/school board – have little idea that Prinicpal’s wife with OW who deacon/principal left first wife and 5 children for – in part of the country 10 years ago. …..
And, the hypocrisy isn’t limited to Christians – plenty to spread around. A good friend of mine is Muslim. She practices her faith and occassionally attends mosque but lived secularly – much to the chagrin of her extended immigrant family. By American standards she was pretty conservative but not by her cultural norm. She’s out on a date walking a biking trail – wearing a summer skirt and sleeveless peasant top thingy. Her uncle happens to drive by and see her. The shit hit the fan in that family… she held her ground and told everyone to basically STFU (although likely not in those words).
Sharing it with me she was incredulous – the same Uncle that went ballistic and flamed up her family – was living a dual life with a long term AMERICAN affair partner – and it was apparently an open secret for the whole family. Good for her.
Not that I excuse his behavior, but depending where he’s from, some Islamic cultures allow you to have more than one wife (even a temporary wife with an imam’s blessing), so in his head it’s okay for him to cheat, but not okay for the woman.
As for your daughters–think of why these cheating fucktards are asking for this forgiveness. It’s mindfucking these girls, so that they can feel good about themselves. And what an even bigger screw-you–it’s trying to teach them that living the life of a chump is acceptable.
Don’t allow your kids to twist into their emotional pretzels.
That wouldn’t be seen as totally hallal (Islamic for “kosher”).
I’m not keen on polygamy, but hey, if it’s not in secrecy…
LOL, Great one Cl. This is my x too a tee! My very Catholic X still says his prayers with my kids. Hell, he even has his latest affair partner saying prayers all together like one big holy family. He truly believes he can break a commandment and think it’s all ok. I will NEVER forgive him for what he’s done, and I’m ok with that. He and his side-piece can pray all they want, won’t keep them from the burny place.
Reminds me of the saying, “There are no atheists in a foxhole”. Religion, like Twoo Wuv, can be a glittery, turd speckled flag of convenience. People who cheat have no values, Christian or otherwise. TimeHeals is right on target-we may never see the karma bus arrive. As far as I am concerned, Mr Fab and the Downgrade’s punishment is to continue to be Mr Fab and the Downgrade.
If this Jesus Cheater OW wants try to spackle over her choices (um…free will, anyone?) with religious justification, that just makes her a particularly unoriginal hypocrite. Which kids can smell a mile off, Anne, as they get older.
That is something to put faith in.
So TRUE! “People who cheat have no values.” You are how you live.
Hallelujah.
In the great song of praise to God for his triumph over the Whore of Babylon[5] in chapter 19 of the New Testament Book of Revelation, the Greek word ἀλληλούϊα (allēluia), a transliteration of the same Hebrew word, appears four times, as an expression of praise rather than an exhortation to praise.[6] In English translations this is mostly rendered as “Hallelujah”,[7] but as “Alleluia” in several translations,[8] while a few have “Praise the Lord”,[9] “Praise God”,[10] “Praise our God”,[11] or “Thanks to our God”.[12]
🙂
Here’s the thing – Jesus / God / Higher Power, whatever you want to go with, is forgiving of your wrongs – but ya gotta say their wrong and change to do right. Fuck another’s spouse, fuck someone else while you’re married – big wrong. Continue to do it and say it’s ok cause Jesus forgives you…..let me know how that works out in the end. I struggled a lot with the religious aspect of this. I took my vows seriously. I finally went to my priest and said, I don’t know how to deal with this. He told me – in these words – one of the reasons I totally love my priest- screw him, God doesn’t say your vows include being emotionally abused and that is what cheating is. He didn’t live by his vows, that’s not on you. He gave me scripture ( which I can’t quote off the top of my head) that clearly states adultery is the biggie where God says, nah, you don’t need to deal with it, I’ll deal with that unacceptable behavior. OW is big on shit about how much God loves her. Well he probably does but he don’t like her and every fuck gives her and him one more black mark.
http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume29/GOT029081.html
This holier-than-thou bullshit is from the holy piece of shit who slept with the coward I married. Together, they not only colluded to steal from my family, but also helped fuck up my kids’ childhoods and sense of what is real and what is crap…
“I understand the hurt that divorce can bring, and the confusion it can cause. But I want to remind you all that you are not the only ones who have gone through this. [My daughter] endured it as well, when my marriage of 28 years ended suddenly a few years ago. For myself, I try to maintain a strong Catholic faith…”
If her faith is so strong, I wonder if she accepts that because of her actions, she (and X) are now eternally fucked according to Catholic doctrine?
Oh, THIS!! SO. MUCH. My 40 year old ex started an affair with a 20-something bikram yoga instructor named Krystall. So cliché, and I am now VERY glad to be free of the narc, but the thing that STILL causes me to absolutely seethe is the Instagram pic the homewrecker posted of 1Corinthians 13, verse 4: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.” http://instagram.com/p/UxaCWIPVp-/ ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?! This WHILE she is having an affair with a married man and flaunting it ALL OVER the internet. There have, of course, been MANY subsequent feel-good yogi quotes posted amidst all the pics of their happy little perfect affair.
Travis first proposed to me in our CHURCH. We had multiple conversations about how much those vows truly meant. Apparently it was just a big joke on me. The 2 other vows he made as a godfather to my niece and best friend’s daughter were also a bad joke. Of course, I was his second marriage, so that makes 4 vows to four different people (not to mention… God) he stood in a church and made that were evidently just a bunch of lies. It’s something I have a hard time comprehending.
Thanks for this post, CL. I also thought I’d share something I heard during a university lecture recently… “There is a big difference between HOLDING a value and actually LIVING it.” It doesn’t really mean very much to say you don’t date married men whilst simultaneously having an affair with one. Whatever. I’m still working on getting to Meh. Good luck to everyone else out there on that journey.
Ouch for you, N.O.G. A friend just asked me what it is about the yoga instructors. Didn’t Alec Bald-Rage marry his? We decided it was the spandex pants. Ew. I prefer cotton. I think their costumes will clog the landfills. Downward Dogs!
Is that your ex in the purple and green tutu with twinkle lights?!?! Bwaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaa!!
Oh.My.God! What is it about cheaters and their need to dress up like fairies and goblins. It seems to be a universal thing. Bitches, all of them.
Oh my that’s a special look. I know it’s Mardi Gras, but something tells me these two wave their freak flag before, during, and after Lent.
I guess coffee whore isn’t the only kinda whore she is hahahah. I just had to….
My ex is a big-time Jesus cheater. Full of how he “tries to be just like Jesus,” and endlessly bleating how he is on a mission from God and how wonderful it is to be so loved by Jesus, blah blah blah. Loved telling me how his adultery was okay because he had forgiven himself and because he had been forgiven by Jesus. Totally “pious” these days and endlessly posting on Fakebook (our son sees the posts) about how blessed he is, how much he loves Jesus, how sorry he is for those who don’t know Jesus the way he does and how great it is to be doing God’s work.
Of course, the reality is he is going right down to the burny place when he dies. He might have all his “fans” on Fakebook fooled, but he ain’t pulling the wool over God’s eyes.
CL,
Are you at my house?! haha He is pseudo-remorseful so I am pseudo-forgivful. Maybe I’m on the right highway to Mehville or it’s the paint fumes, but right now, I really don’t care if asks for forgiveness or doesn’t because he doesn’t “really get” what forgiveness is (a.k.a. humility, remorse, etc…).
If he is ever truly remorseful then I may truly forgive him but it will come in the form of a postcard from Mehville! As I tell my friends “He found God but I was the one who was saved!!”
So in the meantime, “Pray” for your friend. ha ha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atBg9zLI2bA
Where are you guys getting these songs. they are just too funny!
Let’s not forget Mr. Julia Roberts (93-95) !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oojVDRegR3o
Wow, I never thought about the pleasure some of these cheaters get because they think you are pining away over some great lost love! Face palm! I’m just slow!
A friend sent that to me a while back and this post was a perfect platform for it. I think people should have a good laugh several times a day. Whatever it takes, laugh till your makeup smears.
Yes, this!
“It’s hard to forgive someone who’s not one damn bit sorry. Who hasn’t made any sort of restitution, and who keeps committing the same damn sin.”
So the light bulb went off that you don’t have to forgive someone who doesn’t want forgiveness.
It reminds me of the scene in “Living Out Loud” when Holly Hunter tries to make peace with her ex by trapping him in an elevator and saying she forgives him and he says, “For what?”
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3231056153/
Sorry. I know we are talking about pseudo-religious folk who actually want a glib form of forgiveness to justify their poor behavior. My ex-husband, an internet ordained atheist minister who feigned an interest in the Dalai Lama to generate pick up lines never asked.
Maybe I am a little jealous because I was denied so many chump rites of passage because he just left without warning.
I think at one point I panicked a little because I was worried he would try to come back and I was prepared to slap him legally with abandonment and adultery charges. I never confronted him about the affair; I wanted the timing to be perfect in the form of a subpoena or some other legal document.
Every once in a while, though, I get a little chumpy and think, “Gee, he didn’t even turn around.”
I’m okay though. It’s just something that happened.
Doctor, I had the same situation, and we were married 25 years and have 3 children, I always say “he abandoned us like trash and never even looked over his shoulder.” True sociopaths, I believe that they calculated that they were beat and so just moved on to the back-up plan.
Dr., mine just left without warning too and has never asked for forgiveness and doesn’t think he did anything wrong. I’ve been thinking about what forgiveness (or not) looks like for me, because I don’t think the idea of forgiveness I was raised with is going to be possible for me…at least not anytime soon. So I am aiming for not wishing ill on him and getting to meh. That’s about all I think I can handle with him, given the situation. And as far as the OW goes…well, I’m not considering anything regarding her. All I consider when I think of her is disgust.
I haven’t fully grasped the concept of forgiveness but I really do not believe it is the all encompassing absolution of being wronged that we are typically taught.
I am sorry, though, you are navigating marital abandonment. I empathize with what you are going through.
What’s worse, Doc — the cat kills the mouse, or the cat toys with the mouse, tortures it awhile longer, and then kills it?
The pick me dance, the fake remorse, the false reconciliation — it’s just prolonging the torture for cheater kibbles.
Best outcome of a this shit situation is they walk away unequivocally. And you get an attorney to stick it to him for abandonment.
I had a really good attorney. He was pretty cool, down to earth, and put things in perspective. He was also awesome playing poker with the abandonment charge.
After I moved out and filed for divorce mine never tried either. He just shrugged and disappeared. No begging for me to come back, no promises to do better if I won’t divorce him, just a couple of attempts to use me for stuff “can you give me a copy of all the music?”
But after the divorce was final and there was no reason to communicate with me, he went complete NC. I haven’t heard from him in almost a year now.
In a way it’s better, because his lack of hoovering proves that he never really gave a damn about me, he was just using me. But sometimes, I feel a little twinge of something, anger? Sadness? Some mix of both that I wasted so much time and energy on someone who was just a leech. I want to slap myself silly for loving him.
I’m not denying your feelings, but try and remember the begging and pleading is not because they want you back. No it’s all about them, and the fear of losing their cake. Your ex just figured he had better opportunities or and an easier supply of cake elsewhere. Those rites of passage have nothing to do with you, your worthiness, or desirability. For me personally it’s more like an insult, a slap in the face. In a way it says let me see just how much bull they will tolerate…..don’t feel sad because it is a soul sucker and a time waster.
Sometimes I think he bolted because in general, I am a no bullshit kind of person and was starting to speak up. I did not know what was going on exactly, but it did not smell right.
I’ll just go with Alexander Pope, “To err is human, to forgive, Divine.”
My XH used to taunt my Catholicism when we were dating. I still remember on a Friday during Lent one time, we stopped at a McDonald’s and I got the Filet-O-Fish while he got a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. He pretended to look for a lightening strike with every bite, and smugly said, “See? You WON’T die if you eat meat on Friday!” when he was done. I seethed at the disrespect, but like a good chump, said nothing.
He eventually converted to Catholicism after we’d been married for nearly a decade, and he got very involved with the lay ministry. But that all stopped with the affair. I learned later that while I went to mass, he’d sit home and text OW.
These days, he’s a deacon for OW’s Seventh Day Adventist church and gives more time to them every week than he gave his family the last decade. I think it’s because unlike his family and his colleagues, they don’t know the real story. If they did, they’d run him right out of there.
Hypocrite!
So I got this letter a couple of weeks ago from my Jesus Cheater ex…… It’s been SIX YEARS since he moved out. It was Easter a month after he moved out and we went to Easter service for the last time as a family, where I got a good look at the future Mr. Holy Roller while he pumped his fists and raised his hands and generally made an ostentatious display of his “faith” while the kids and I just sat there befuddled. You know, actions and words were not meeting up. (this was 6 months before I discovered the OW)
Anyway, he says he’s gotten EVEN CLOSER to Jesus over the last couple years and would love to get together with me and help me with my residual anger if only I would acknowledge my wrong doing in the relationship (blame shift).
Somethings up. I wonder what it could be. Is he trying to head off any uncomfortable scene at our daughter’s upcoming wedding, which is on my turf and where he and Owife are not going to know a single soul there (except for a couple from the previous life that didn’t like him very much)? Is he having financial trouble and wants to pacify my reaction to a problem with my monthly cash flow? Is it the seven year itch with OW and the love child isn’t a cute and cuddly as he was? In the name of Jesus, he wants us to work on restoring our relationship!
Of course I wrote back and said that just wasn’t going to be possible….
In my ex’s case, the whole church thing is a bargaining strategy with God. “If you’ll just see me through this crisis/sickness/whatever, I promise I’ll be good from here on out, and go to church every Sunday” It’s trying to head the Karma train off at the pass.
I think they just miss the attention. Seriously. I’m sure tons of us could take our cheaters back from OW/OM if we waited a few years for the shine to wear off and then did exactly what the OW/OM did- offer an unlimited supply of love, attention, understanding and praise. They just miss the attention of the cheating, affair, breakup etc. I don’t think they actually want a real life, with anyone. They don’t want peace. They want Ashley Madison on steroids.
I’ve read many chumps here say that their ex cheater resurfaced YEARS later with weird bullshit of one type or another. I have to admit, that freaks me out. How many here have experienced this? My ex contacts me less and less frequently — I’m hoping he will eventually completely disappear. I hate to think years from now, I’ll suddenly get some sort of abusive text message again.
Glad, if my ex were like yours, I’d be digging a moat and installing a drawbridge.
I couldn’t figure out how he’d dare write anything like that, knowing that any reply could get nabbed by the Owife at home before he got a chance to see it. A little check on the interwebs (FB) — ah, yes, he sent Owife and Okid to the beach for a vacation. That’s an m.o. I’m familiar with, having gone on several impromptu vacations with my kids when the affair was hot and heavy.
I just hope that every two years the judge will renew my protective order because I know my ex WILL come back around if it lapses. There is no question in my mind, I was the best care taker he ever had, his current care taker doesn’t make enough money to satisfy him.
Clarification: I would ask the judge that question.
I think the question I would ask when the time came, is “why wouldn’t you renew it?” That may be naive of me, but it may be a question worth asking.
Cheaters, no matter their religious beliefs, pick values only when they are convenient. Walking out on a marriage and mortgage, stealing money out of joint savings and your children’s college funds, treating your spouse like shit while fucking your racquetball partner, all par for the course. My cheaters not only blew through marriage vows but each has a job that requires them to be ethical. Oaths, vows. You don’t have to mean them. All is forgiven because, hey, “it just happened.” Poor sinners.
And, how about the infamous manager of one of the largest Hedge Funds in the world ($4 billion) whose wife and he also lead a very popular Christian based ministry in his town? Got caught with his pants down in a cheap hotel with a hooker raided by the cops. Mug shot all over CNBC. Lost a lot of his clients over it and certainly must have lost a few of his Christian followers. Talk about a hypocrite. Feel sorry for his wife – she must be on here. (ya think he could have afforded like a high priced hooker in a private apartment? ha ha — creep)
oh yeah, this guy was my stbx’s mentor. Ha – guess that’s where he picked up the idea.
Oh CL! Preaching to the Choir!!! My STBXH suddenly got “saved” and filed for divorce. Then he started going to mystery churches on Sunday.ALONE!!!! He never went with me or our children!!!! Then Lo and Behold… i find out the sidepiece is some saved holy roller Christian. She passes out bibles at work!!! Rumor mill around town says you cant “hit it” unless your saved too! no wonder my STBXH “converted!” Christian my azzz!!! Those 2 Jezebels (yes..my STBXH is a jezebel too lol) can have each other and rot in Hell with gasoline undies!!!
nutmegpixy — gasoline undies totally made my day!
The OW passes out Bibles at work?! Is she a Gideon Bible salesman? That is so inappropriate… as is fucking married men and purporting to be “saved.”
Saved from what? Good character?
I don’t want to offend the men who come here to CL for support, but I often wonder how men can be so dumb to think that having sex with a new woman will lead to anything positive beyond the first few orgasms. Is that new woman/orgasm really worth the pain it caused? What does that say about our men? And if men are so out of control of their desires, why should we worry about putting a menopausal woman in the White House. It can’t be any worse.
Moving Liquid, they’re not that out of control of their desires. It’s that they don’t want to THINK about any possible consequences to their stupid, hurtful behaviours, because there don’t think there should BE any consequences! Entitlement all the way.
My ex freely admitted that he NEVER thought about what might happen to our relationship and our kids’ family, when he started getting involved with the OW. NEVER thought about how the separation might affect his relationship with his kids. NEVER thought about whether he’d get caught or whether he’d be happier in the medium and long term for having had the affair. NEVER thought about how his subsequent selfish and entitled behaviours and neglect of our kids post-separation might affect his relationship with them ….
And he’s not a stupid man at all, Ph.D. in plasma physics (I don’t even really know what that is!) and an MBA, perfectly capable of planning and making choices for the medium and long term when he’s interested in that. He just wanted what he wanted when he wanted it, and because he wanted it, figured he was entitled to it. Really they are toddlers inside, but it’s not because they don’t know better, it’s because they don’t think they should have to be responsible for their own choices.
He actually really really doesn’t like the consequences of his choices. But he NEVER asked himself whether that new piece of ass was worth everything he was throwing away by screwing her – and THAT choice, not to think, is on him.
Well, he may not have had any blood in his brain at the time.
I think part of the problem is that our society no longer gives out the message if you cheat, you have messed up and your partner will divorce you. There’s too much goobledygook about how affairs are a sign of a bad marriage and the betrayed spouse must have done something. People believe it in the back of their minds and just don’t think that about what they will create in their lives if they cheat.
Unbelievable, KarenE.
I have to be careful here, because I’m trying so hard to believe there are good, loyal men who enjoy monogamy like I do. But are most men at the mercy of their dicks? How can they be trusted with power? With running the country? With taking care of the environment? Making life and death decisions? They say women with their raging hormones are risky, but my god, a man with a working dick is riskier. Again, I don’t mean to stereotype or sound bitter but if the shoe fits…
Also, you may have already talked about this on CL, but is viagra having an effect on the divorce rates in older people? I thought I read that somewhere. Imagine you’re slowing down enough to be able to look at the big picture in life and realize sex is great, but it’s not THE most important thing in the world. But start popping those pills and suddenly he wants to be 20 again. It’s all so silly. (I really do love sex, and I imagine that it could be quite depressing to be a man with ED, but don’t throw your life away, man!)
I’ve never wanted to say men are like children, but I’m having a hard time resisting it right now. Guys who are here, I’m sorry. I’m just a bit baffled. Perhaps you can set me straight.
ML, I don’t think this is about their dicks AT ALL! I think it’s about entitlement, kibbles, entitlement and kibbles. And it’s not about men, either, plenty of women do it too.
But the good, loyal men (and women), the ones with character, they can manage this stuff. They are able to make informed choices about what they value, who they want to be, and how they want their lives, relationships and families to go. Not saying they’re perfect, but they CHOOSE to try to do things right.
And I agree that our culture gives cheaters an ‘out’, and that encourages more people to be selfish idiots. But we live in a highly narcissistic culture right now, and it encourages a lot of selfish behaviour – which doesn’t even lead to people being happier in the long run, which is the really stupid part!
My ex would get up on Sunday mornings before church get his I-pad out and troll escort
sites ,make an appointment for a Sunday afternoon appointment . Found out on D-Day
six months ago he was doing this for years. And he repeatedly used the Jesus card on me.
He would always say he was a good Christian and I wasn’t. Can’t figure out if he thought
God thought he deserved a Sunday afternoon delight or how in the hell he justified his
behavior. He still goes to church regularly and every Sunday afternoon I look at the clock and wonder if he’s whoring around. I guess it’s not my problem anymore. Funny how God works though. I prayed for 4 years for God to reveal if this guy was cheating on me. I didn’t have the guts to leave without proof but the day my daughter left for college I checked his phone(sent e-mails) and there it all was. God sure has a sense of humor. Waiting for the lightening bolt to strike him down but my lawyer got me a good settlement so I guess that will do for now.
It took me a long time to feel liberated and to see any type of light at the end of the tunnel. In order to do so, part of what I had to do is relinquish doubt – pull it out of its hiding places and stomp the fucker out. Don’t let your doubt keep you from being liberated. Roundhouse kick that shit (Chuck Norris-style) and walk away. Cowboy hat and boots, optional.
Here’s some inspiration from David Grohl. Even if you don’t like their music (Foo Fighters), you must listen to this portion of the song “Monkey Wrench.” It is INSPIRING and downright FIERCE. Maybe it will help you scream and get pissed – it feels sooo very good – and squash the doubt & misgivings for good.
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g3V-MuIyD4&w=420&h=315%5D
Sad to say, Dave Grohl is a member of the CheaterPants Club. Sigh.
“1997 also saw the cracks begin to appear between the two frontwomen. Whilst on tour in Australia Louise Post found out her then boyfriend Dave Grohl was cheating on her with celebrity kleptomaniac Winona Ryder” http://welove1997.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_archive.html
I think he may have been known to have cheated on at least one wife as well, but I’m not gonna bother digging for it….
Not surprising that he’s a cheater! Still love the song, though. Always will. His scream (and the lyrics) make me feel good. 🙂 It’s really worth a watch.
Ohmygod. It’s taken me this long to get it. Pat Smear. Pap smear. I went to school with the guy. George Ruthenberg. Pat Smear. Sheesh.
OW #1 was the 20 year old single mom living next door. She was raised in a very strict, Christian family who kicked her out when she got knocked up with her daughter at 16/17 and her older sister took her in.
The couple of times she came over to hang out with us (once with a boyfriend), she talked about her love of God and Jesus.
Um, how did living a righteous life include sleeping with my husband?
As a Christian trying to live an ethical life I have never figured out “Jesus Cheaters” my favorite Biblical example is of the woman who commiits adultery and is condemd to stoning Jesus stands before her accusers telling them “He who is without sin cast the first stone” One by one they slink away. “woman where are your accusers? GO AND SIN NO MORE. If you truely believe you do not commit adultery period. It is one of the BIG TEN.
and about forgiveness you try and let go of the bad feelings for your own peace of mind. Forgive the sin not the sinner.
From what I read in the good book, even God doesn’t forgive those who don’t repent. My husband still has not shown remorse. He is sorry he got caught. He is sorry I annoy him with my pain. He is sorry the whore isn’t his to play with anymore. He is sorry I am watching his every move. He is sorry our sons are the beneficiaries of my life insurance, etc. He is truly sorry, but not sorry for his actions. No remorse. No repentance. So forgiveness, well, that remains to be seen.
The bit about the life insurance is creepy.
Anyone who thinks the whole NT is all marshmallow should read the actual Bible sometimes, not cheery pick the verses that sound nice. Try the book of Jude, or 1 John 3.
Here’s an interesting article I thought was relevant discussing 5 traits of a false believer. Check out number 5:
“5- A false believer is one who claims commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word and yet secretly holds on to personal sins which he/she has NO intention of mortifying:
1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer : and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Note the words love and hate…..
Love and hate are unseen…..
Yes, I believe that both love and hate are manifested in our deeds, yet the two in and of themselves are unseen.
I cannot see whether or not you have a secret hatred towards an individual.
I cannot see whether or not you have secret desire to harm anther, yet because of your fear of retribution you refrain….however, your hatred is still there…it’s simply not acted upon for reasons unknown.
A false believer, then, is one who holds to secret sin, unseen sin, and yet claims to know and love God when Scripture makes it abundantly clear (see above example) that such a one as this is not a true believer at all.
Let us examine ourselves, to see whether we be in the Faith.”
Forgot to include the link to the original article.
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study/16643-traits-false-believer.html#.U26yzy9BzL9
I work for my Catholic Church and met my XH through the church. He became part of the choir (of which I was too) and we started dating. He gave me the song and dance about how important God and his faith were to him. After we got married, it was nothing for us to attend 3 masses on any given weekend to sing at all 3 Masses. He would hold my hand during the homily, kiss me after the sign of peace and tell me he loved me … EACH AND EVERY TIME. We went through Easter, 2010 with the same thing going on and 4 days later he informed me he wanted a divorce. He had met up with his old high school flame 2 months earlier and they had met half way between their work at a hotel to have some afternoon delight. They were “in love”. When I told him he was an adulterer, he told me “No I’m not. She’s not married.” What Bible was he reading from? What church was he attending? It just reaffirmed for me what I knew all along … He was singing for the glory of himself and not for God. He also managed to sit through all of those homilies and didn’t get anything from them. Going to church is not a guarantee of what is inside. He graduated from a Catholic High School so I guess they didn’t a do a very good job of teaching the 10 Commandments either. Spouting God does not equal a good person.
Unbelievable!
My husbands’ OW had the statue of Jesus in her garden. I have always had (or for the last 20 years or so) a pact with myself that if I met someone with a Mary or Jesus in there yard I would RUN!!! It has been a predictor of true hazard ahead, business & personal! I am not kidding either. How sad that many use religion as a way to garner trust in others only to abuse it. I agree that it fits in quite nicely with the narcissistic frame of mind. Mindfuckery as CL calls it. Gain the trust, then pull a fast one.
I see the people I know on Facebook who quote scripture frequently I happen to know have committed egregious crimes against others.
To me that makes me imagine that person has collected a Jesus statue for the garden, just like a garden gnome. I would have to say that would make me hesitate too. (But I did not grow up in a church with icons/statues/etc, so that’s rather unfamilar territority for me.)
My STBX has co-signed an auto loan for Schmoopie. Big Mistake, as she’s a horrible, terrible credit risk. Anyway, she posted a pic of her new ride on Facebook, saying something to the effect of “Thank you Jesus!” for the new car. I told one lawyer when I was interviewing them that all I could think of was, “Jesus had nothing to do with that car! That was my stupid husband.”
Anyway, OW is full of religiosity. STBX wants to be religious. It’s as if he tries, but always falls short. When he goes to church, he makes a show of genuflecting (we’re Protestant, but…). He quotes scripture. But yet he’s an adulterer. It’s as if he hopes that if he looks as if he has strong spiritual values, he’ll actually have them and be redeemed by them.
However, all he’s really doing is exercising his hypocrisy. Same with OW.
I’m pretty sure that God knows what’s going on.
My ex stopped paying the mortgage right after I moved out of our old house. He lived there for 2.5 more years before the bank evicted him and sold the house at auction. Ex then told our son that it was “God’s will that he lost the house.” Umm, I kinda think that had nothing to do with God. If you don’t pay your mortgage, the bank takes your house away. I guess it sounds better to say it’s “God’s will” you lost your house to foreclosure than “I quit my job, declared bankruptcy and have been putting crazy videos on YouTube for a living, so I have no money.”
Anne,
I am a both a pastor and a professional chaplain. And I can say from my perspective that anyone who unashamedly commits adultery does not know God for God is very serious about honoring the marriage covenant.
The Bible clearly teaches that marriage is a covenant with BOTH God and the spouse! When the cheater commits adultery, they are giving God the middle finger and doubly so when they try to justify it through God/Jesus language. When the teachers of the Law and Pharisees tried doing this in the New Testament, Jesus had some choice words for them even calling each of them a “son of Hell” in one particular passage that comes to my mind (Matthew 23:15).
Also, while Jesus offers free grace to all, it is not cheap grace as Brennan Manning would say. It cost the life of the Son of God. If someone thinks Jesus does not take sin seriously, she is a fool, and it is a waste of time to argue with a fool (just read Proverbs).
Think of it this way. Put yourself in the shoes of a Veteran hero from WWII who helped liberate a death camp and lost an arm while fighting. Now imagine someone intentionally taking a flag, throwing it down in front of this particular Veteran and pissing on it. I am not even a Veteran, and I would take that personal. Add to that this Veteran loss a limb to protect freedoms, and this punk is pissing on the symbol he gave so much to defend. Jesus gave more than a limb. He gave His life.
Anne, next time you hear this woman talk about her love of Jesus while she is still engaging in adultery, remember: She’s pissing on the flag. God takes that personal!
And to be clear, here’s a verse from the New Testament explicitly stating God’s mind on the matter: “Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.” (Hebrews 13:5, NASB). God judges in the New Testament, too. It’s called the Final Judgment. Cheaters beware!
Amen. Though I am reluctant to wish ill upon another human, I have made this my mantra through this horrible experience “dignity, grace, don’t engage, & let me be a reflection of You.” It ain’t easy, It hasn’t always happened, and I have to say, I’ve hit my knees more in the last 3 months than I have in the last 30 yrs.
Most memorable moment was hearing the choir sing a song that just hit me. We have kneeling benches to the side of the alter where people can go to pray as called. I sobbed my heart out as wonderful angels placed their hands on me to pray for my well being. The church (or designated place of worship) can be a wonderful place of healing and support. I am eternally thankful for mine.
I would add to this. Anne, God loves you. When someone loves you, he cares about how you feel and when you hurt. In fact, my friends and family who truly love me get angry when they see me being hurt and abused. Real angry!
Think of being a parent and watching someone seriously hurt your child intentionally, this stuff makes God MAD!!! He loves you and your hurt matters (yes, even if God feels silent right now). Read Psalm 18 if you like. It’s my favorite Psalm as it talks about God caring enough to get angry when His child is hurting and in need.
I will get off my soap box now 😉
I’m in the depression stage of grief but this post made me laugh. Like Chump Lady, I’m a pk too and I distinctly remember that David, who God says is his favorite person ever and has a heart as close to God’s heart as any human has ever had, saw a seriously good looking chick taking a sponge bath on a hot day and he had her husband killed so he could have her. AND GOD KILLED THEIR FIRSTBORN CHILD in retribution. Jesus cheaters are funny. It’s just walking irony.
Yep, PK here too. Also drew with the little pencils during most of my childhool…lol
My dad was the real deal, and a truly godly man. But I did see many others who used their “faith” to prey on people, and was very bitter toward God and church until the end of college, when I found my way back to faith. As Whodathunk and Rose say well, there is no grey area in the bible when it comes to cheating. God does forgive the repentant, but sin has consequnces. And He clearly instructs the adultress to “Go and sin no more” which would have meant to end the sinful relationship, and repair (if possible) the broken relationships. Adultry is also given as a reason to permit divorce…so the book is pretty clear.
I’ve mentioned this verse before, and I think it also speaks to those of us who have ex’es who don’t support their children…
1 Timothy 5:8 “Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” Not a whole lot of wiggle room there either. 🙂
Sometimes I think religious cheaters are worse because they have to convince themselves they’re doing it for a good reason. Like they’re soul mates. Or they believe that they need to divorce their spouse and marry the OW/OM so that it won’t be a sin.
Anyhow, I think one of Jesus’s messages is that we should all focus on our own sins, not other people’s. That’s not quite the same thing as saying that people who commit adultery should get off. In fact, he tells the adulteress to “go forth and sin no more.”
When I was in college, I was dating a young man who went on a spring break mission trip with a college religious club. On the day we got back to school from break, he was the speaker at daily chapel and announced, from the pulpit, that he had go engaged while on the trip. As chapel ended, dozens of people came up to congratulate me. All I could say was, “I have no idea who the lucky girl is, but I know it’s not me.” Years later, he came to visit me while on a business trip and told me all about how he had made the wrong decision as a prelude to making a pass at me. Like a Jesus cheating dog chasing his tail.
Anne, in terms of your kids, I think you should encourage them to feel whatever they want to. They may forgive easily because they love their parents and want things to go smoothly or they may be furious. It depends on a lot of things including their age and how OW treats them.
You might want to have a therapist for them or some other adult to help them with their feelings since it would be hard for you to do it without showing your own.
Hi Anne,
I am from a religious Jewish home and have studied religion all my life. I am fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic and have been reading and analyzing the Hebrew Bible and its commentaries since from childhood from religious and academic perspectives.
Although I left orthodoxy twenty years ago due to feminist reasons and because I wanted to be part of a global community, there are valuable lessons I have kept with me.
First that there are different kinds of responsibilities. There are those we have to God: such as fulfilling our potential and remembering to make meaning and purpose in our lives. The other is toward our fellow creatures/humans. God cannot possibly forgive us when we hurt one another. Only people have jurisdiction over that. These two domains intersect but no notion of God in my studies has God forgive for a crime committed toward a person. God is involved but cannot speak for creatures just as we cannot speak for God.
So what have I learned to do you when I hurt someone else? My studies of RAMBAM have helped me here as well has my studies in Chasidus.
Moses Maimonides wrote about the stages of repentance, which most communities take extremely seriously. He wrote that repentance is a process of:
1) Leaving the hurtful and damaging act immediately. You can’t say sorry and give the person the finger (by doing it over and over) at the same time–no can do.
2) Remorse such that when you think about what you have done—you cringe and feel regret because you hurt someone else–you feel empathy and feel the consequences of your actions on someone else’s life and self and also realize how your acts have forged your own character–this makes you sick.
3) Never do these hurtful acts again—this is tested when you are in the same exact situation: feeling misunderstood, entitled, enticed, gloomy, morose, angry, horny—still you don’t lie to your spouse and cheat—you do something else. Perhaps you are not happy in your marriage and must deal with it honestly etc. But I think it’s also deeper. You simply cannot lie because when you look at another you feel immediately that they deserve to be respected and respecting others means being honest and not hiding information you have that they need to make the best decisions in their lives.
What RAMBAM requires is nothing less that transforming as a person. The Jesus freak you describe has done none of these things. So in my book she’s a charlatan. I am sure she has some kind of a relationship with God in her own way that keeps her feeling good, but for practitioners of religion–she is a charlatan. It’s not that everyone has to be a scholar and quote people. Everyone has tools to figure this out. It’s out there for those who care to look.
This charlatan is not alone as many have described. People kill because they think God wants them to kill. People think they are better than others because God has made them better. All this is pure shit.
In terms of my own practice, whenever I hear some spew-forth about God and God’s will, I always ask myself: Do I agree with this? Do I think the God this person is promoting is dumb, unkind, or unjust? If the answer is yes, I know the person spewing forth is far from insightful. After all, I can’t believe God would act in dumb ways. If I, a mere mortal, expect honesty from people and expect people to treat me with dignity and humanity, than surely God does.
That’s my two cents.
I don’t encourage my kids to feel anything about their father any more. In the beginning, I urged them to cut him some slack, describing him as probably very depressed and acting out on some internal angst. To some degree that may well be true, but my kids were sort of unimpressed by my theory, and they don’t like to talk about their father, which I respect. It’s probably the safest way, to avoid degenerating into a something I’d regret saying, anyway.
Perhaps the best advice I got here, probably right from Tracy, to not mediate the relationship between my kids and their father. Hell, I don’t understand him, so how can I expect to help my kids understand him? I don’t help them stay in touch, buy him gifts, remind/apprise him of events, etc. I no longer encourage forgiveness–nothing. I don’t talk TO him (EVER), nor do I talk about him (in front of the kids.) As far as I’m concerned, he walked out of my life, and he is irrelevant. NC means NC and I like it like that.
Miss Sunshine– Very good description of how to keep NC with and about the ex, AND how to not mediate the relationship (or lack thereof) with the children. We chumps usually tend (at least at first) to bend over backwards to encourage a relationship between our cheater-exes and our children (aren’t we GOOD chumpy ex-spouses?!?). But I realized quickly that my ex simply didn’t care about his own children, and that my attempting to encourage a relationship was hurting them.
Just yesterday, I slipped and in passing mentioned his father to my 14 year old, who has not seen his dad in the 2-plus years since D-Day. Whether I mention their father in anger or even in fond recollection, my children just recoil. To them he is simply gone… dead… and they like it best and are happiest when they are not reminded that he still walks the face of this earth. So my solemn goal is to never again be the source of that painful reminder for them. Thank you so much for your insightful and timely comments on this!
I urged them to cut him some slack, describing him as probably very depressed and acting out on some internal angst. To some degree that may well be true, but my kids were sort of unimpressed by my theory
Smart kids. Don’t try to “fix” that 🙂
Umm, not reading their Bible, I’d suggest.
It’s good for us to forgive in the sense that we don’t hold onto the hate, but it doesn’t mean you’re a doormat, it doesn’t mean what they did to you, or keep doing to you, was OK. It doesn’t mean what they did was moral, or in some cases, legal. What they did was wrong. But to the extent that you don’t want to carry hatred around, it’s good to let that go. Having said that, it doesn’t come easy, and it’s not something that comes quickly. It takes time, and that’s OK. If they are asking for your forgiveness, but not redressing the sin (that is, separating, accepting the consequences of the sin – hurt to you and your children), they have not right to ask.
Hrumph.
I think what we have here is hypocrisy and a desire for a different kind of cake! Forgiveness cake!
Hiding under the banner of God or Jesus or Allah or Buddah or whatever is nauseating and cheapens organized religion.
I’ve been called a Cafeteria Catholic. Really I am a Recovering Catholic. Those things aside, it is pretty oblivious that my OW, the anal, porn-loving, married church lady, is a hypocrite. Even I, the bad Catholic, remember the 7th commandment.
All of the Jesus Saving of her fat ass scripture links cannot hide or cover her stained soulless existence. To engage and fuck other men, while married herself, is inexcusable. To knowingly plot and scheme against innocent children is repulsive.
Asshat kinda saw her as conflicted. He justified her fuckbuddy actions with not only her awesome ability to find xhamster porn links to act out, but also her tremendous “faith” in our Lord, Jesus Christ. Hey, if she goes to church then the cheating lieing, dishonesty, STD swapping, disrespect of the spouses etc.. CANNOT be bad. It all must be God’s Will. She fed him that shit and it was his choice to hide under the banner or God with her to excuse himself from being a horrible human being.
My wife and I met while we were both in the Navy…..early 90’s. She was the first to deploy leaving me at home with a one year old. Missing her family terribly and needing someone to talk to, she turned to the safest guy on the ship. The Navy Chaplain. An officer, LCDR at the time and shrouded in religious robes……..yep you guessed it. It lasted almost a year, and after I found out from his wife………She also told me it wasn’t the first time, he was a serial cheater. WTF. I have gone to church very little since then and am always suspicious of anybody that is a part of organized religion.
Happy Mothers Day to all of you. I hope you find a sliver of peace today ,, maybe our God of courage strength & hope will let a little sun light shine on your face today so you can feel happy and enjoy a little peace,,,,, if just for today.
You all deserve that 🙂
Michael
Thanks Michael – you are very kind.
I remember the married OW calling me to quote scripture AFTER she dicovered my exH was also cheating on HER with yet another gal (the one he ultimately left us for). Seemed she was super pissed that she wasn’t his only “soul mate”, so that “hurt and humiliation” prompted her to try to console me. Yes, that was oh so helpful…sarcasm.
For those waiting for the karma bus…about a month after that, her husband (who she told everyone was “boring and mean”) suffered a near fatal heart attack, and has been unable to work since then. She was always talking about how she loved her flexible job as a university professor (she scheduled courses so she could be around MY husband, but never home with her own…). Her ailing husband then went on total disability, and her “flexible schedule” now allows her to care-take her terrible, horrible, mean husband almost full time. She also has 2 grown kids now who are both doing mission work. I’m glad I never outed her to her kids (I knew them); now she gets to wait on her “mean” husband all day; be the breadwinner for the family, and sit and wonder when her religious kids will discover she cheated on their dad and contributed (her own words) to his heart attack. I figure either she gets to live looking over her shoulder, waiting for the judgement to drop; or she’s a soul-less, guiltless nutcase. Either way, the bus has arrived.
I’m dealing with an OW who calls herself “a child of the Most High God” and has all kinds of Christian blather and prayers on her social media. Ugh. Hypocrite. I would like her to read Proverbs, the 10 Commandments, 2 Peter 2, among others. I swear I’ve become obsessed with Bible verses against cheating….gives me some perverse pleasure that the karma bus will smack both of them.
ReDef; WOW beyond shamelessness! And what a chuckle she now gets to stand by the man she committed to! Hardy-har! One thing that baffles me (& maybe others) is how the hell do they rationalize the hypocrisy especially when they are by themselves? I guess the same way Ministers have had affairs and Bishops can take advantage of children. And Laney “a child of the Most High God!” A different one than the rest of us lower on the food chain get I can only assume.