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Beware Jesus Cheaters… There’s a New Blog in Town

Jesus-says-meme-generator-no-problemo-i-forgive-you-baby-6f1da4 Hey chumps, I know several of you guys are bloggers. Forgive me for not giving each of you a shout out (but do post the link to your blog in your screen name, or feel free to link to it in the comments). But today I thought I’d let you know about a new blog started by our very own Full-Steam-Ahead — called Divorce Minister.

Good blogs have a niche, and this niche is sorely needed. FSA is taking on all the religious mumbo jumbo surrounding infidelity. The cheap grace, the forgiveness spackle, the Jesus cheaters. He’s got a M.Div from Yale and he’s kicking ass and taking names. (Okay, really he’s providing thoughtful, considered debate, but hey, that’s pretty badass.)

Now, you might not be of an evangelical protestant Christian persuasion, so maybe this blog isn’t for you. But I think we can all commend FSA for creating a safe place for people who are struggling with their faith and the horrors infidelity.

So many people stay stuck with cheaters because of their religious background. Because of this idea that they are obliged to forgive someone regardless of whether or not that person shows remorse or acts of contrition. Or they stay stuck in marriage because they feel divorce shame from their religious community. Somehow divorce is more shameful than infidelity! Or people feel betrayed by the congregations who side with the cheater and their new affair partner. Or look the other way at affairs in their own community.

A faith community is supposed to be a safe place. So imagine the multiple betrayals that arise when your cheater is under girded by religious “authority” to abuse you? Or your congregation doesn’t call out the sin that is abandoning one’s family, and instead expects you to just get over it and forgive already? Jesus cheaters do a lot of harm and I’m glad someone is blogging about it.

I probably say “fuck” too much and am not much of a religious expert to take on these issues. I’m a preacher’s kid with a potty mouth. A lapsed Methodist with more snark than scripture. But I am curious — did you have a Jesus cheater? Did you struggle with your faith after you were cheated on? Did you get support from your church, temple, or mosque for divorce? Did your cheater find Jesus after they cheated on you and now Jesus forgives them so you should too? Did you drive your cheater off with a crucifix and some holy water?

What’s your story?

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    • fiestypants is going around without “pants”?!?!!?

      So I guess that makes you a virtual streaker. You do know this is a thread about religion, right?

      • I decided going around topless just wasn’t cutting it 😉 Taking off my pants. Sheesh. The nerve.

        • Fiestypants….People often argue who should wear the pants in a relationship….I say relationships work best when no one wears pants!

              • ROTFLMRO at all of you!!!

                Thanks for the chuckles!!

                And THANK YOU, CL, for directing us to this another awesome blog! Stunning stuff….Absolutely stunning!

                Now, everyone, pull those pants back up! 🙂

                Love to all ya all…….Forge On!!!

              • Actually it’s spelled feisty not fiesty. A fiesta is a party. So partypants?

          • Friend of mine once told me that on his wedding day his new father-in-law pulled him aside and told him that he had one rule for him – that it was what his own father-in-law had taught him years before, and it had worked for the new bride’s mamma and him for over 30 years:
            Never argue with your clothes on!
            My friend said he was a little embarrassed to hear that advice on his wedding day, but that it was the best advice anyone ever gave him. That couple dutifully followed the advice and are one of the happiest couples ever. Something worked. Probably communication.

            • Moda. Lol Yes. We set that rule when we got married as well. So far I think we could benefit from more naked time. Gets hard with a preschooler running around 😉

  • Thanks, CL! I hope it is truly a place of healing for chumps and a place of education for those care to help chumps. One would think taking a hard line on adultery would be a no brainer for Christian pastors….sadly, my experience is that it is a rare pastor who is willing to confront (even if they are willing to say adultery is wrong).

    • Congratulations, FSA. I’ve always enjoyed your comments here at CL and I’m sure your website will fill a very important niche. While I’m not religious, I look forward to checking it out.

    • Yep — perhaps another variety of mythical beast, very rarely sighted, to be added to the species of unicorn: the pastor who will confront.

      My pastor, at the time, was the human equivalent of jelly nailed to a wall. He would not even confront the sin, much less the sinners (both members of his congregation). Instead, he liked to focus on how (if I relocated) the long car rides that my daughter would need to make to see her dad could be an opportunity for important communication between them. Gee, thanks, Rev. C. It’s all about the silver linings.

      • andstilirise,

        I think you pastor and mine went to the same theological venue. my now X pastor has advised me he has provided STBX with the tools (scriptures) it is now up to STBX to use them. He did try to tell me early on that STBX had cheated because he had become lazy in his christian walk so part of his disciplinary actions was to read his bible every day like it would fix the problem Yeah what ever! STBX was raised in a strict christian home/church environment. can quote scripture passage and verse like a telly evangelist good luck with that.

        • Sammie D, I think another thing we have in common is that the congregations who witnessed the infidelity were intent on spackling like crazy.

          Very much illustrations of the Forgiveness Troll in CL’s book: so many people came to me with pouty-faces asking, “Why You Not Forgive?”

          Even as, meanwhile, the elementary-school-aged children of two parish families were having their homes torn apart while the cheaters found twu luv (and neither cheater ever actually apologized for their actions). They were teaching Sunday School together, hosting Coffee Hour together — not a public peep from the pastor, the Vestry, or any parishioners (although some friends did express discomfort to me privately… very privately).

          Much like the divorce itself, It was a blessing, finally, for me — the catalyst for me to leave a tepid mainline community for a faith witness that more strongly matched my own call.

          But the time I spent with those folks during the affair-early divorce remains one of the grimmest, nastiest, most spiritually tundra-like two years of my life.

          I hope you also are travelling in or at least toward the sunlit uplands now.

          • My ex BROUGHT HER TO CHURCH while screwing around with her! His wife (me) is the youth leader! The only person who said anything was my best friend. One deacon actually told me “I don’t want to get involved.” Really?

            How do you spackle that?

            I felt so alone and shamed because I became a divorced single mother and the only people who reached out to me were my best friends.

            • This is months later, so I doubt you’ll see it, but your post brought tears to my eyes. I’m sorry that you were abandoned by those who should have stood with you.

    • Just went over to your blog and read everything.

      You rock FSA!! Thank you so much for your blog. My STBX’s AP is a minister who believes their “love” has been ordained by God and that God is blessing their union, that God always intended that they be together. Not being theologically trained, but just a decent person (I believe), I didn’t understand how this could be accurate. There are also family members who consider themselves “good Christians” who support him and believe I am partially to blame for what happened and he “deserves to be happy” (as he has told them this is one of the main reasons for his cheating. We won’t get into the prior cheating, and particularly with the prostitutes).

      With all the news of cheating ministers (and others) and their public forgiveness, including on television by other ministers (who may or may not be cheaters themselves) and on-TV personalities who bill themselves as “people of faith,” it is refreshing to see a minister and person of faith who is willing to call a dog a dog.

      I will be a regular over at your blog! You are a clear example of God using a terrible trial to refine you (not define you) and providing you with the tools to use that to help others.

      • Oh man that is classic entitlement right there. “I deserve to be happy. God has blessed this.” Ay ay ay. No. No. NO. For a minister that’s probably preaching about repentance and grace from her pulpit, she’s heavily clued out on the real meaning of grace. It’s cheap grace when you don’t realize just how precious a gift it is. Furthermore, there’s a good chance her denomination could end up de-frocking her once the divorce goes through. That’s pretty ghastly conduct from a pastor and they better place some sort of disciplinary action on her. Secondly, if things really were to work out for your STBX and her, some denominations have a DPE process (Divorce Policy Exception) of some kind that the minister has to go through to keep their credentials b/c you can’t be a minister with an unbiblical divorce on your record. She didn’t divorce herself, but her man did, and it was unbiblical. Therefore it’s viewed that they’re both committing adultery. They’re now one, your STBX’s sins carry onto her making her the perpetrator of adultery and the unbiblical divorce. AKA, de-frocked. FSA can speak more to this as he had to go through the process to prove his divorce was biblical (horrid process for the faithful spouse btw).

        • I will throw a little more lighter fluid on this – I believe she provides – wait for it – premarital counseling/classes.

          Apparently, she was “called” to the ministry during her third marriage, although she states she had always been a person of intense faith who God had been calling for years. She finally and “humbly” gave in to God’s calling of her because he apparently needed her to do his work.

          She tried to initiate an affair/divorce with my STBX many years ago both prior to and during her second marriage. I will never know if she was successful in the affair part then, as he is a pathological liar. I now just assume that he fucked anyone and everyone who put it out there for him – easier for me and there is no skein to untangle.

          She constantly presents herself as a true believer and follower, as well as a constant and consummate victim of circumstance when things go awry. If she was the only example of the ministry I had, I would be casting the “stank” eye on religion. As luck would have it, I personally know several ministers (some female) who walk their talk. I know that the AP is not a representative sample, but there are just too many out there like her.

          As an aside, fiestypants, life is really better without pants. 😉

    • Congratulations! You are starting a new movement to make the infidelity aspect of adultery part of the Big 10 (Commandments) again.

      I recall reading C.S. Lewis on the subject of sexual promiscuity (and probably many other behaviors involving excess, as I don’t recall the full context) But he made an analogy that might be a bit out of date today, given the turn to obesity in the U.S., comparing promiscuity to looking at a plate full of donuts and wanting donut after donut, just eating and eating. (Bear with me–it’s been 30 years since I read this. He says it much better.) But the impact of his words is so important, as we have a culture where nothing is ever “enough.” We want more donuts, more money, more cable channels, bigger cheeseburgers, bigger and bigger houses, everything super-sized and keep it coming. And of course none of it is increasing real happiness or making us better people. It’s an out of control consumer mentality.

      Applied to relationships, and fueled by a media culture that pushes the idea of “soul mates” and “true love” as something that just happens and requires no work or commitment to attain, we end up with people who are never “full” and who look outside themselves to other people, to more experiences and more stuff, for the answer to their emptiness, rather than turning to the spiritual vacuum within. For disordered cheaters, the problem of emptiness is way beyond my ability to suggest solutions, but for more ordinary people, going back to the sacredness of marital love (and, disclaimer, I mean also same-sex marriage) and sexuality as explored in truly intimate contexts with realistic, respectful and loving expectations of the partner, may make marriage and sexuality more meaningful. And at the very least, your blog will provide a sounding board for Chumps who are now wounded first by the cheater and then by religious groups that seem to love the sinner, give a pass to the affair partners, excuse the sin, and blame and shame the person the sinner betrayed.

      • That sounding board is desperately needed because I’ve experienced everything you said in that last sentence and so much more that I just can’t comprehend! What is wrong with people who protect the cheater and choose to believe a narcissistic, pathological liar over the faithful spouse?

    • FSA,

      I suspect you may enjoy this article by Michael Spencer (Chaplain Mike).
      No adultery apologetics here:

      Excerpt…. “The guy about to commit adultery is a person with a marriage he’s neglected and a wife he’s turning into an excuse to step out on. He is convincing himself he deserves something rather than admitting he is responsible for something. Did I just hurt your feelings? Good.”

      • notyou-Good link! “Let me say it again: The man about to commit adultery is choosing sex with someone other than his beloved because he doesn’t want to own up to his part in the marriage he’s about to violate. It’s that simple. Moving the responsibility elsewhere, or amplifying any other factors to the point of “cause”, isn’t helpful.”

        True dat.

      • Wow, not you. That took my breath away for a second. That’s him. That’s my STBX. Perfectly explained and described. Too much of a coward to face his own behaviours and bad decisions, so I became his justification.

        Thanks – no need to untangle any skeins anymore.

    • FSA,

      Congrats on the start of your blog. My XW completed her MDiv. from the same university as you and is also a minister, but I won’t mention her name here. Best of luck and much success.

      “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    • Dear FSA,

      I am so privileged that I belong to a community of faith that views adultery the way God does, the way it is explained in the scriptures. The cheaters are removed and are shunned, the faithful spouses & children are supported and divorce is always an acceptable option in such cases.

      Forgiveness is encouraged, yes, but only if there is a basis for doing so. Once again, it is viewed just as the scriptures explain…….

      As you have experienced, many religious groups are not actually upholding what the scriptures teach. So glad you are taking your experiences and channeling it to help others, much like Chumplady herself.

      Take care and ForgeOn!

  • Wife of TrulyRemorseful here. (Cringing already.) Yes, I am struggling with my faith since finding out that my husband cheated on me every one of our eight year marriage. I believe two wrongs don’t make a right (his cheating, me divorcing him). I am currently flaming angry every single day, hurt, betrayed, chumpified, etc. He says he is remorseful and sorry, but it’s all words. Actions are lacking if not nonexistent. He wants to stay in the marriage and act as though nothing happened. He says he had a Jesus moment recently, though his attitude toward me and what he has done lately says otherwise. Where *I* am stuck, is my conviction that God hates ALL divorce. I MAY divorce him, but nowhere in the bible does it say I SHOULD or MUST. The vows we said were “Until DEATH” not “until UNFAITHFULNESS”. We have a child together, and I struggle every day with making the proper choice for her sake as well as mine. Would I want her involved with a man like her father when she marries? No way! But I also don’t want her growing up without one or with a bad example like I did due to adultery and divorce. I want to set a good and Godly example for her. I want to do the right thing, but I also want to be happy. Our pastor has said to divorce him-with emphasis! So I no longer attend that church, or any. Being told forcefully by a pastor only confuses me more. I feel that if I divorce him I will have committed a wrong just the same, and will have to answer for my part. So yes, I AM struggling because of my faith.

    • So I was right about him posting here and proudly presenting it to you. Oy . . . the manipulation.

      Sorry you’re here Chumpified, but read everything you can and you’ll get great advice. That’s all I have to say at the moment. Something is weird about this . . .

      • Yes, he did show me the site a little while back (we send links back and forth trying to gather as much information about dealing with affairs as possible-he said he half regrets turning me on to this one), and we had quite the fight about him posting. I felt it was merely another ploy for attention. He’ll take it any way he can get it. Even negative.

        • IMO, you need a place you can talk privately. You don’t want to have someone grilling you about things you posted. Sigh . . . sorry you’re dealing with this. It is completely unfair. There’s so much going on here and it’s difficult to give you the advice you need when he’s going to try to use what is said here for his benefit.

          You’ve got a real prize on your hands. Can any chumps help here . . . I’m at a loss.

          • My advice is simple. Separate. Sit down and write out how you will divide time, do custody, etc. Think of everything, including the need to keep your child away from affair partners and run it past a good lawyer (yours, let him find a different one( to make sure you’ve thought of everything. Go NO CONTACT for 90-120 days, while you do individual counseling and have a chance to heal. Then see where you are.

            You can separate without divorcing. If this man was beating you physically, would you stay in the same house, because you believe divorce is wrong? Emotional abuse is every bit as bad. He’s already voted against monogamy, and your post here indicates that you are a smart cookie and can see through his current lies and gaslighting. And I’d give a second thought to going back to the church with the pastor who cares more about you than about a social and religious construct. You, dear heart, can stay as “married” as you want to, be faithful to your vows, and be an excellent wife BECAUSE you are requiring your husband to face his own behavior, his own choices and BECAUSE you are refusing to be abused.

            One of the great commandments is “love your neighbor as yourself.” That means, first, loving the life God gave you, honoring your own needs to be respected, loved, and your heart safe from abuse. Change your screen name here on CL and set that boundary. If he can’t let you have a place in cyberspace to get support, how will he be able to stay within the boundaries of marriage? Most everyone here, I am sure, could smell the manipulation and gaslighting reeking from his blog post. I am not optimistic about his chances to change, as he looks to have some character disorder. And as part of your separation, find at least two psychologists skilled with recognizing character disorders and ask him to get two evaluations. See what they say. It’s a lot of work to be married to a narcissist/sociopathic cheater abuser. But at least, give yourself a few months to sort things out, with support. Your marriage will still be there; trust me–he wants those kibbles.

        • Chumpified, my cheater ex used to do this do me. Post as a repentant wayward on SI. And heck, in my hopium I even ENCOURAGED this. Really he was stalking me on that site, using what he learned to manipulate me and use the language of “remorse.” He changed profiles, he kept at it. He took a lot of energy from good hearted people trying to help him with his “reconciliation” (he never stopped cheating on me).

          It’s a violation. A place like this should be your safe place. If he can’t respect that, it shows me he still doesn’t get boundaries and the enormity of what he’s done. I’ll tell you what I told him — if he were really sorry — he’d let you GO. Stop mindfucking you and just let you get the no contact from him you need to heal. He needs to be unselfish enough to let that happen. You need to make a boundary with him (no contact) — and he needs to respect that boundary.

          • I was stalked by STBX and OW on SI. I made the mistake of telling him about the site in the early days after D-Day, before I fully realized what a scumbag he was. He told OW, and she did some cyber-sleuthing to figure out which account was mine and forwarded him juicy tidbits. I had to stop posting anywhere — complete radio silence. Horrible, isolating experience.

            I don’t know whether either of them posted on the site. But how soulless does a person need to be to use someone’s privately-posted expressions of pain as a weapon? It boggles the mind.

            • It goes back to what we were saying about hyenas. These “people” like to pick when you’re weak and pick at the bones. It’s pretty reprehensible.

            • I’m sorry LilyBart — that sucks. FWIW, the long-term OW stalked me there too. Never posted though.

              Yes, it’s soulless. And a big part of the power trip. Pain = kibbles.

        • Chumpified, I understand what you are saying and everyone here has had great comments I just wanted to add my two cents. My ex’s mother contacted me after we split to say that I had to forgive him his infidelity and admit that it takes two to destroy a relationship. I told her that I would gladly take responsibility for my part on the relationship and had been turning myself inside out trying to make my ex happy but a person can not be held responsible for a relationship based on lies. IMO you never had a marriage, maybe you went into it in good faith and meaning it when you said “til death do us part” but he obviously did not take his vows seriously. A marriage takes two; two people acting in honesty and trust. one person can never make it work but one person can destroy it. You have to make your own decision; this is only my opinion but I think it is especially important that a girl needs to be raised in a home where women are respected with a strong mom who won’t allow herself to be disrespected. I also feel a child is better off with one healthy parent who is happy and not consumed with the emotional abuse of the infidelity of the other parent. There is no way you can be the best parent you can be when you are constantly dealing with this ( I suspect he likes the attention he takes away from your daughter by his constant infidelity). I was a single mother of a boy and yes it was hard for him to not have his alcoholic dad around but whether I stayed or not did not stop his father from being an alcoholic who screwed everything in a skirt. It did affect what kind of mother I was though and he grew up in a home where there was no fighting with a mom who worked full time but was always there for him and he grew up feeling loved. He didn’t grow up watching me crying about his dad not coming home. My son is now 30 and he treats women with the utmost respect, he is honest, kind and giving but he also knows how to set boundaries and remain true to himself. I doubt he would have grown up with those values had he been raised with both his dad and I.
          I am sorry you are going through this, my prayers go out to you and your daughter.

    • If I’m reading your story correctly, your H has been unfaithful the entire marriage – right from the start.

      If that’s the case, IMHO there never was a marriage. He never had any intention on living up to the promises he made at the alter if he broke them so quickly and repeatedly. I think that may be one of the reasons why your pastor advised you to divorce him.

      I don’t think you should feel the least bit guilty. You can’t have a commitment when only one person commits. I think the sin is that you were tricked into believing you were entering into a lifelong partnership, when clearly he had his fingers crossed the entire time – to me that smacks of fraud.

      I really do feel that in cases like yours, a legal and religious annulment is fitting.

      And I say all this as someone who’s now exH also cheated the entire time.

    • Chumpified, I tackle that issue and the Malachi paasage head on with my post, “Divorce is not sin.”

    • Chumpified, I totally get you! It is a seemingly impossible situation. My pastor counseled us early on in our marriage and pretty much gave up on our marriage. Pastor has stood by the kids and I for decades. He is a good guy and also happens to be a licensed therapist. So I feel like he gets what is going on. So when the latest affair, this time a 20 yr EA with former mistress, came along, I spoke to my pastor’s wife and another older woman. Both women were very kind and agreed that I could do whatever I choose. There are no good options when a spouse cheats, only pain. They have been a source of comfort.
      I am still with my husband. It grieves my spirit everyday but I am following my attorney’s advice. CH is getting his inheritance any week now and he has a record of taking off whenever he gets money. If he finds another honey/victim while having some cash, he is likely to sign divorce papers without thinking. I really don’t want to pay alimony so I am sitting tight.
      Maybe God will get through to him. I suspect CH has told the Almighty to F off so many times, it is too late for him. And yes, he has literally cursed God! So I wait. God I’d good and He is the only judge that matters.
      As for you, I hope you will draw close to God. He is the only one we can count on.

    • Chumpified,

      First, if you read the bible, you will find that God allows divorce when the cause is infidelity. Infidelity is abuse and God did not create any of his beloveds to suffer abuse. That is not to say we may not suffer abuse and many other things, but those things are not of God and not his will. When we choose abuse, it is not wise to attribute that choice (or inability to choose differently) as God’s will for us or coming from God.

      Your H’s visits to this site and his postings are a total boundary violation IMHO, and have nothing to do with God, morals, character or concern or love for you. This was your “safe place” to come and share your feelings and to be supported in order for you to work out what is best for you (and your daughter). If your spirit was lead here, for whatever the reason, and you began to find some peace, solace and less confusion when you initially began coming here, what has changed and why has it changed?

      Perhaps someone else can comment on this as this whole series of events with Chumpified and TrulyRemorseful have given me a feeling of concern.

    • Chumpified: What does your STBX (get used to thinking of him like that) do and say where he’s not cloaked in anonymity? Anonymous self-flagellation is pretty easy. It’s just telling you what you want to hear. Judge (and I do mean JUDGE) his actions. For whatever reason, it’s also pretty typical for cheaters to passive/aggressively manipulate the chump into being the one filing for divorce. You may have to just man-up and do it. FWIW — the legal divorce is a secular thing necessary for your protection in the world we live in. If you truly believe you are still married in your heart, or by God or whatever, then you, personally, stay faithful to your vows and forsake other men, at least until your child is grown.

      Just for you — a video made by the only church couple that I’m aware of that made it through the crisis, and even then, in my opinion, it’s only because the man was toppled from a pretty lofty height as a church pastor (they fired him) and his dream of leaving and starting a new church with his church secretary went *poof*. This couple spoke at my church the year my Jesus Cheater husband put his whore on our payroll. A year later, while still going to church and denying there was another woman, my Jesus cheater started agitating for divorce because I was not Christian enough! I hung in there for the longest time because I was being kept in the dark. You at least know what’s what. Sort of.

    • Chumpified-look into FSA’s blog. He touches on this very subject. It is up to you as far as what action you take. You do have a biblical reason to divorce if you choose to do so. When you look at the scripture, God doesn’t just hand out permission to divorce to everyone. There are very few exceptions, adultery being one of them. The interesting thing is, if a divorce happens without the biblical justification and/when one/both spouses remarry, the scripture says it’s viewed as adultery b/c the original marriage covenant is still in-tact. God doesn’t seem to take lightly to adultery. He gives permission in cases of adultery for a reason. You didn’t break the covenant, your cheating spouse did. The green light isn’t given to them, it’s given to YOU, the faithful spouse, b/c you are the victim. The cheating spouse will face the consequence on judgement day.

    • 2 cents worth…

      I got caught in the same mess. My minister said something wise… in effect my STBX has stolen control of my life from me. He said, “You do have a choice and it remains yours: to stay or to leave. Either way, you need forgiveness to work towards your own healing”. He explained, “Forgiveness has two aspects: one to forgive and forget in order to move on with the offender (you pay the complete price…put as your faith provides…your saviour); and one to forgive and move on without the offender (let your saviour figure out how to pay you back).

      I chose the first but it killed my faith in religion and in myself. I should say rather, I sacrificed these things for her. I was loyal to the wrong person. What a useless sacrifice. I’m still angry at my own chumpedness.

      Believe this, what it takes to be unfaithful is a monumental lack of character. Character is largely unchangeable after early adulthood (some say even puberty).

      I echo the advice given here…read lots! Consider carefully. Make informed decisions and don’t cave. Be brave. Preserve faith…somehow.

      Good luck my friend.

  • As a Christian , I know there is a much needed niche for someone within the church who is taking the mumbo jumbo and shame out of divorce.

    My experience has made me realize there are almost as many cheaters within the church as there is outside the church and that truly truly sucks!!!!

    Unfortunately some churches and many Christians still do not support divorce, they preach the same thing as the reconciliation industry and encourage people to live miserable lifes attached to a cheater. Some churches also take sides with the cheater blaming the betrayed spouse who had the audacity to file for divorce.

    Many churches are also getting real, in my personal experience my church rocked in this respect. My Pastor’s first words after I spent an hour crying and blubbering details of my miserable infidelity filled marriage was ” get out of the marriage, this man has been gone for a long time and he’s never going to change!” I can tell you that blew me away because my previous pastor in the UK only spoke about me ” becoming a better wife” ” forgive him” ( which I did over and over again … I would have saved myself 14 years of misery if I left after the first two times) ” divorce is sin”

    My church has given me support and love and I know many other churches are doing the same unless the leadership are Jesus cheaters too!

    I have realized Christianity or even genuinely loving God and wanting to do his will and what is right does not stop anyone from cheating.. What stops anyone ; xtian or non xtian is an intentional effort NOT TO GO THERE…. Not dancing near ‘fire’, not going for dates with someone else when u are married or becoming emotionally attached to someone else or going to their hotel rooms or homes alone when u are attracted to them and married to some one else.
    For the genuine Christians , you can still cheat and WILL CHEAT if you take even one step in that direction.
    For the hypocrites, they know exactly what they are doing.. Infact church can be a prime place to have a steady flow of vulnerable women .

    • 13-So glad your pastor was able to cut the chase and actually call it as it was. I was thinking about this the other day. Reconciliation, especially in the church, seems to focus so much on staying married as the only option. The actual definition says: “the restoration of friendly relations.” There’s a big gap between being on friendly terms and being married. What happened? Why is it that you can’t get divorced and still be considered reconciled down the road when the cheater actually owns up and you could be on “friendly” terms again? Doesn’t remarriage count as reconciliation? When the faithful spouse remarries, the marriage covenant is restored. It’s not with with cheating spouse, but it’s definitely a restoration and redemption of previous hell.

      • Thank you Fiestypants. I had read my bible for long enough to know that that adultery is a ground for divorce but I also believed in love, patience and forgiveness. I have a few regrets that I stayed in a dead marriage so long but I’m also glad that I gave it my all, my best shot and honored my end for so long.

        You are right in saying reconciliation does not have to be staying married only. I believe now a marriage is broken when one partner commits adultery and is not truly remorseful. I believe I should forgive him and hold no bitterness, I even wanted to be friends but i don’t think I should be friends with someone who treated me so badly and foes not believe he did anything wrong.

        • 13-No, you don’t need to be friends with that kind of person. Ironically enough, in the Old Testament I believe the adulterer/ess would have been killed. Not killing them could also very well be considered “reconciliation.”

  • I do believe in God. I was one of those who was betrayed twice. I did not have the support of my church when I needed them the most. I have now discovered many of our so called “religious leaders” have their own piece of side meat. I am totally appalled. I simply cannot return to any function and I cannot listen to the hypocrisy of their preaching. You know – do as I say but not as I do cause I am almost God and can do whatever I please. Who art thou to judge me???
    My cheater was an upstanding member of our church. People respected him. Amazing how they can put on their “garb” and make people believe they are something they really aren’t. All smiles and politeness yet deep down their heart is stone!
    I was even told by my pastor “before you knew weren’t you carrying on with your life?”
    and also “you haven’t died yet have you?” The most painful remark was “If you were there for him he wouldn’t have to look elsewhere.”

    • Someone needs to baptize that pastor and hold him under.

      “You haven’t died yet?” “If you were there for him, he wouldn’t have to look elsewhere?”




      Ok, a little mad for you now, furious.

      Yeah, in the marriage if you don’t feel like a slut to yourself he will jerk off on the corner, be a good wife, slut it up.


      I swear, yes, woman just don’t respect yourselves, your life, who you are, you are a wife slut now, come on baby.

      Annoyed now, so annoyed.

    • “If you were there for him he wouldn’t have to look elsewhere.”

      My XW gave me something similar, that I had to “fight for her”. When she marries the OM next year they will make their vows before God. The same God that I hope still cares about the truth.

  • Chumpified, can I recommend a book with a biblical perspective on infidelity written by a psychologist. It’s message is no nonsense, the cheater is a sinner, needs to repent. It’s called “I don’t love you anymore” by Dr David Clarke

      • Chumpified,

        I agree with RK that the two of you need to talk privately, and will add that it is imperative that this take place in a safe environment with a strong no-nonsense counselor who can quickly get to the root of whether or not your spouse is truly remorseful and can “do the work.”

        The two of you do not need to engage in do-it-yourself marriage counseling on an open forum with people experiencing degrees of recovery from “Meh” to “Acute PTSD.” You will get such widely varying feedback that it will cause emotional and information overload.

        I too, recommend David Clarke. Please read the following article in it’s entirety.

        Then move heaven and earth to find a counselor who does the job in the manner of Dr. Clarke.

        Best of luck to you.

        • I think with the focus and clarity that this kind of counselor brings to bear, you will be able to resolve your spiritual dilemma and make decisions that you can be comfortable and at peace with.

          • I misunderstood RK’s sentiment to mean that you and your spouse should talk privately, when she was actually referring to the situation of you having privacy on this forum.

            Being realistic? While having privacy here is a nice sentiment, this is an open internet forum and subject to breach of it. It is what it is until it is changed.

            If members here desire more privacy, then Tracy may want to look into more stringent membership measures like the ones Pat Gaudet takes to maintain privacy at the Midlife Club.

            • It’s a complicated IT issue. This blog is on WordPress. I’d have to operate a separate forum with a different URL. The forum I have now is a WP plug-in. If IT chumps want to weigh in, I’m all ears.

              • Tracy,

                You could go over there, register, and look. There are features that you may really like…or not. Her set up is user-to-user centered while yours is moderator centered, which may not appeal to you. But it never hurts to look around.

                Posters can start their own threads on specific issues; the chat room accommodates both public and private real time chats; there is an inter forum email that works via usernames as opposed to actual addys; and there are numerous special interest sub sections.

                I don’t know Pat’s platform, but that set up has to be very expensive. She runs an advertiser sponsored free service to approximately 5 thousand users, but she’s been there for many years and gone through several platform changes and forum designs.

                I’d speculate you aren’t generating near that kind of revenue yet; but, hey, anything’s possible 😉 Your contributing membership here may over time become so massive that remodeling this site become a necessity.

            • All she’d really have to do is change her tag name and keep the unnecessary details out of it. He’s already posted here previously, and I’d hate to see him continue to use this blog and the things posted here as a way to manipulate her.

    • Great book. Every Christian pastor and counselor should read it. Dr. Clarke has no patience for cheaters. You can listen to his interview in Focus on the Family too.

  • My STBX was the biggest atheist our whole 14 year relationship. He walks out – sends me an email 3 months later telling me he prays for me every day. So…we can add that to the other lies he tells lol

  • Somehow divorce is more shameful than infidelity! — I got berated by XW cousin for divorcing her and I know that my x didn’t get it that bad.

    My XW found Jesus after I filed for divorce. She kept sending me scriptures, passages, stories about forgiving and telling me that I need to just give her some grace. I tried to for a month or two, but quickly realized that she had become a Jesus Cheater. Truly, I hope she stays on a faithful past and never does this to someone else, it just won’t be with me.

    • Apparently not being willing to forgive is also equal to infidelity, as this too is a sin.

      So I am thinking that ‘Jesus cheaters’ have all their bases covered. My spouse hold this against me they have to forgive, my spouse wont divorce me thats a sin, my spouse will always be there as that is what they have signed on to do.

      I am shore that is why they show no remorse because they have already rationalized in their minds what our response should be and when we do not live up to their expectations they then justify there behavior in return.

      • Forgiveness does not eliminate consequences. Does forgiveness mean a chump will no longer have an STD? I think not. Similarly, the relationship will never be the same. Forgiveness is not the same thing as reconciliation. I can choose to forgive someone on my own. However, it take two people to reconcile. If sin remains between two people, the relationship remains unreconciled as I see it. How can it be if dirty secrets remain hidden by lies?

        • FSA, read your blog, what is your take on emotional affairs? Betrayal, lies, denial, we’re just friends. Devastated…MFIM

          • IKM-EAs, just as PAs, suck and they’re still infidelity. There’s really no “we’re just friends” when an EA is involved and there’s a very, very fine line between EA and PA. They’re not separate but intertwined, where’s there’s one, there’s the other often time.

  • Thank you, CL, for this notice.

    And thank you, FSA, for doing this important work.

    As well as being a person of faith who takes very seriously the obligations that path lays on me, I am in the same business (on the academic rather than pastoral side), and I have been repeatedly impressed by the grace (in all meanings) with which you handle and respond to folks’ religious and biblical statements, and by your sophistication in negotiating claims about authoritative meanings ascribed to the text.

    I echo ANR’s good prediction — I hope and I know that your blog will help many.

  • Struggling directly after Dday, I could not face going to my Catholic place anymore. I started attending a little Episcopal church in my neighborhood. The priest, a lovely woman a few years older than I am, invited me to coffee one morning before I headed to work. Dragging myself to do the next right thing, I sat in her office trying to find the words to convey that I am usually in much better shape. I vaguely said that I was not quite fit for public consumption and was looking for a place to rest and recuperate. “What happened to you?” she asked. I gave her the short version of my infidelity story. She responded, “Same thing happened to me, about 20 years ago.” She totally got it and supported the exit strategy that I employed. Her understanding and support didn’t heal my devastation miraculously but it did help me feel less like a leper. Ministry happens in the most unusual ways

    • ‘ not quite fit for public consumption’ I love this mental picture you have given.
      I walk past nurses in the hospital who cared for my daughter and for me to a great extent as I was with her 24/7 and some do not even recognize me from the stressed out person i was back then.

    • I don’t think any organized religion is immune from this problem. I was raised Catholic by parents educated by Jesuits through their undergrad degrees and I heard plenty of stories from my mom about friends of her counseled by priests in the 60s, 70s and even 80s that they had an obligation to honor their sacramental obligations and stick with their husbands through cheating. In four decades of attending mass I never heard a single homily about infidelity. I heard more about how many hours before communion we should fast than I heard about cheating.

      The main reason I left the Catholic church was that after I divorced my unrepentant serial cheating wife the Church would not recognize my second marriage unless I had my first marriage annulled. That was not an acceptable route due to the cost and emotional toll of the process, plus knowing that at some level it would mean my children from my first marriage would be seen as illegitimate (i.e., not the product of marriage). And yet, . . . Newt Gingrich was allowed by the Church to marry his third wife (you know, the one he cheated with on his second wife, who was, you’ll remember, he one he cheated with on his first wife?). “Enough said.”

      I respect the Catholic Church immensely, and appreciate the message that annulment is sometimes allowed after infidelity because the Chump wasn’t ever in a real marriage, a concept that resonates with my experience. And the Church seems to be moving every day closer to a position of compassion toward the Chumped, especially with the guidance of Frances, who really seems connected to the struggles of ordinary people. But for me, right now, the Episcopal Church feels much more understanding of my journey.

      • Same here, Nomar, minus the kid issue, about which your perspective makes a lot of sense.
        I have hope Frances’ message of compassion will be heard down to the smallest parishes, but for now I am hanging with the Episcopalians.

        • “hanging with the Episcopalians.”

          LOL. Yeah, that’s what it feels like. Like the kid who has can’t get along with his parents and so goes to live in the basement of his more laid back aunt and uncle for the last year of high school.

          Though I anticipate being baptized in the Episcopal Church later this year. Don’t think Frances can move things along fast enough on issues like women clergy, gay marriage, contraception, etc. for me. But I like the idea that one day all the Protestant denominations will reconcile with the mother church. Though I’m sure some would say that’s a theological unicorn. . . .

          • I love the Episcopal Church. There, I said it. I was raised Southern Baptist. So many Episcopalians are former Catholics looking for a refuge. I still sometimes feel like the odd one out, but I would never leave it now that I’ve found it.

      • I went the annulment route … guess who now is free to marry in the Catholic Church because I got the annulment? Not only me, but my Cheaten’ XH! He didn’t pay a dime, didn’t fill out one sheet of paper and he gets the right to remarry in the Catholic Church even though he is a 3 time LOSER! Just lovely.

        • Wow. The cheater and the chump both free to remarry in the Church? Talk about a false equivalency. You would think that screwing up a marriage so bad that it was never even really a marriage would disqualify someone from once again obtaining the Church’s blessing for marriage.

          The Church blessing a second (or third, or sixth) marriage by a serial cheater is like the DMV handing the keys to a new Ferrari to Lindsay Lohan. Downright irresponsible.

      • “In four decades of attending mass I never heard a single homily about infidelity. I heard more about how many hours before communion we should fast than I heard about cheating. ”


        This is EXACTLY what I told my mother–a Catholic who literally prays about 5 hours per day–that I did NOT like about the Catholic church. I hear more sermons about how we shouldn’t eat meat on Friday and how we should attend mass on Holy days of obligation and go to confession than I do about how to treat people and be a good person ourselves. We might hear about lying (for example) by simply hearing, “As Catholics, we’re not supposed to lie because it’s one of the 10 Commandments, and it’s a sin”. But priests don’t really go beyond that.

        As for infidelity and divorce, I can not see God holding the ‘innocent’ spouse to their vows if the cheater broke the vows. After all, God knows our hearts, and if God knows that the cheater was the kind of person who would break his or her covenant, then doesn’t that mean that we were never really married in the first place in God’s eyes?

        I look to the passage in Corinthian’s 7:15 : “Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.” If a spouse commits adultery, isn’t that saying that (s)he is the “unbelieving” spouse? Doesn’t this passage RELEASE the believer from “bondage”? And wouldn’t this passage apply to other areas besides adultery (abuse, habitual drunkenness, criminal activity, etc.)?

        I just wonder how many marriages throughout history that GOD would consider to be a TRUE marriage…


        • It’s interesting, because after reading about what unfaithful really means. It doesn’t mean that you’re unfaithful to your partner. It means that you don’t have faith in religion. If you don’t have faith in religion then you don’t believe in the Ten Commandments. Then the Ten Commandments are open game for anybody who is technically an atheist.

      • Don’t know what I would have done without my Episcopal priest during my divorce from my first ex. I’m a convert, at age 11, from the First Baptist Church.
        I was one who was raised to think that divorce was a sure ticket to the hot place.. which was part of what kept me in an abusive relationship for nearly 20 years, that I knew at 3 weeks was a bad idea.
        When I finally went to my priest and told him everything, his words absolutely absolved me of all those years of guilt in a few short minutes. When he asked me why I was continuing to stay with a man who treated me so badly, I told him it was because of my vows. He asked what I meant. I told him I didn’t want to go to hell for breaking my vows. Then he said, “(Moda), God wouldn’t want you to stay with someone who is doing the work of Satan.”
        My world changed in a moment. My heart was pounding, my breath was shallow and rapid, my thoughts were racing. A weight was lifted from me. My burden was gone. I could live without the threat of eternal damnation. In fact, I was duty-bound to turn away from this demon.
        I’ll be forever in the debt of that priest. He has since moved on to his rightful place in paradise. I hope to meet him again some day.

        • Chiming in late here Moda, but I wanted to add a thing or two to your thoughts.

          Had you gone to another priest, you probably would have gotten a completely different response. There are–unfortunately–still priests who believe that it’s up to the WIFE to keep the family together…that if the husband cheats, it’s the WIFE’S fault…that marriage is for life not matter how badly you’ve been treated…and that if you divorce your spouse, you’re surely going to hell.

          The lack of consistency within the church, plus the various interpretations of scriptures can really be confusing to the parishioners.

  • Great post as usual!
    It is funny. Right around the time that ex supposedly started the PA, he decided we needed to actually join the church that our children went to preschool at. (I guess he had to fill out a form for the SWAT team and religion was a question on there) So, we did. The pastor came over to the house to discuss plans to join. So we joined in a ceremony on Easter Sunday – stood up in front of the church and joined. I found out that after dday that he supposedly had sex with her the first time the day after in our truck, right next to the booster seat. Classy!!
    Anywoo, after dday he said that he wanted to go meet with the pastor to talk about counciling and such. I did separately. Come to find out under his own admission, he lied to the pastor. So I told him what any person would have told him. You lied to our pastor?, yep, you are going to hell.
    I spent too much time trying to make it work after his lack of effort and remorse. I didn’t want to fail my family but I finally had enough. Funny thing is now, he has nothing to do with the church and I feel so comfortable there. They have been very supportive of me and my children and that is something I needed – a safe place.

  • Agnostic-“God loves the faithful doubter.” But my older X was very sick and OW used her religion to basically convince him that everything he (we) had ever believed and worked for was against “God’s will.” She wore her religion like cheap perfume. UGH. He eventually saw through her hypocrisy, but it was too late to save our long term marriage. So many lives damaged for one person’s false religion. I can’t even walk into a church anymore…

    • Louise, I am so sorry to hear that. Just as Chump Lady says about reclaiming a place, I wonder if you have thought about reclaiming a church and not allowing the OW’s lies plus your ex’s treachery to separate you from it? Why should it be you who is driven from that place?

  • Congrats FSA! Glad to see there’s more help for us Chumplings out there. Wishing you much traffic and happiness. 🙂

  • When I attended a fundamentalist church, my pastor rocked! He worked with the women’s shelter and counselled abused women and one thing he said stuck with me: that when one party to a contract (marriage) breaks the terms of that contract, the other person is free. It’s a great way to say that a marriage which contains two people cannot be held together by just one of them. Often, the cheater will say that if you leave you are the one breaking up the marriage. This is not true: the fact is that the cheater broke the marriage and the betrayed partner is free to go. This is the part I was hung up on for the longest time until he clarified it: I was not the guilty party breaking up the marriage. Period. When that got through to me, it was “Wow!”

  • I was raised without God so when I became a christian at the age of 20 and met STBXH at 22 in bible college I thought I had hit the jackpot as he had been raised in a strict christian family.
    Fast forward 20 years and I am now sharing my testimony on a chumped website because what I was lead to believe was a man of strong christian character who was just a bit effeminate, was actually a closet homosexual, narcissistic mummies boy that has been living a double life for the past 8 years with a very active sex life.
    The pastor and the elder that my STBX confessed to have done all they can to keep his secret. A month after D’day my youngest daughter (9) was diagnosed with cancer and I had to deal with STBX in regard to her as though nothing else mattered, while my whole world swam around my. A week after her diagnoses the pastor of our church came to visit her in hospital and over heard me telling his wife a story in which I referenced that my marriage was over. He rebuked (scolded) me like I was a delinquent child and told me I had no right to say my marriage was over. There intent was to lead him through disciplinary action hoping to bring him to full restoration at which point it was just assumed he would then be reinstated in the family. I managed to get him out of the house a week before D’Day as our son had caught him looking at porn and as a result I managed to get STBX to go to his mothers. He has never come back and we are now NC.
    When I challenged the pastor’s attitude that day in the corridor outside my daughters hospital room, he was adamant that I should not say my marriage was over as it would be do difficult for me to recant if they were successful and even went as far to say when I asked when could I say my marriage was over, “When I tell you”. This comment has since been denied and I have had it put to me that he only spoke to me that day as a father would speak to a daughter.

    I loved the comment posted on this site the other day in regard to parental reactions ‘where is your mommy bear? I have no parents so this has been a tough road.

    The elder and his wife who facilitated D’day STBX was made to confess his crap to me in front of them in their home and then was instructed to leave but not to tell his mother whom he now lives with incase she was to gossip and it got back to out girls. Yes they went into damage control. I did at one point accuse them of trying to manage me to which I was again rebuked. In their view they were only treating me like a daughter. All I can say is I hope their daughters choose wisely. Because as duration of my daughters stay in hospital got longer and longer they became more and more distant and when STBX was called back into fellowship I knew my time in their church was done. The level of control with these people was astounding to put it mildly and the whole time STBX continued on with them keeping his secret as though nothing really bad had happened as they put it to the congregation that we where just having some issue requiring a ‘time out’ and if anyone wanted to ask questions they were not to come to me or STBX they were to go to the pastor or the elder. (sorry for the run on sentences CL)
    8 months on and I have little contact with the eldership of the church we once attended as a family he is still there and supposedly undergoing counseling by the pastor and the eldership If you can really call it that. According to STBX when asked back in april why he had done this to me, our family? he responded with and I quote “6 weeks ago I was delivered of an unclean sexual spirit”. he has claimed to me that it is all in his past while telling others ‘he loves it but he hates it’. yet even this week was found flirting with male friends on FB? What does it say in the word that you can clean a house but if it is not filled with correct things that which was expelled comes back with friends?

    The attitude I received from the Pastor and eldership was the same as someone else has already posted ‘two wrongs do not make a wright’ and for me to pursue divorce is seen as bad as the sexual infidelity its self, I have even had someone we both attended bible college with bombard my FB page with how sinful divorce is. In the initial weeks following D’day sitting in a hospital with a gravely ill daughter I question how could I be free from all of this but still consider myself to be a christian. I wanted nothing to do with my STBX ever again. These thoughts consumed me to the point I thought I may loose my mind. But I didn’t and It is because I began to share my story and to seek the wisdom of others outside the church. I got a great therapist (christian so understood my values) I even went and saw the chaplain at the hospital to get an unbiased view on divorce.

    But one thing I do know, is the day I made the decision to end my marriage it was like a huge weight lifted off me. It was like I did not have to fight for this fake relationship anymore the years of ‘Pick Me’ ‘Love Me, Love Us’ was over, it scared the hell out of me and still does but it is also such a relief. Yes I still have my crap days and I am very grateful to CL for this site as it has been enormous source of daily encouragement.

    STBX claims he has made his peace with God but as we all know Cheaters lie, mine has been lying for years but truth or lie that is for him to deal with in this life or after. My biggest issue has been that as a result of this I have lost a huge part of my life. STBX and I were a large part of music ministry in our church and now that is all gong and I feel as though I have nothing to offer that is of value anymore and that is what I struggle with as he and I have ministered together for 20yrs. What do I do now?

  • When you have people in your church who look the other way when infidelity arises, when parish members shame you for choosing divorce, when parish members side with the cheaters–that’s not religion that is failing people, it’s people failing religion. People need to understand that.

    • True enough. But one reason to attend church is to participate in a communion with other believers, a communion that supports and sustains its members. When gathering with those people is instead injurious, it’s time to leave. Dysfunctional congregations should be as unacceptable as dysfunctional marriages. Because, of course, you deserve better.

      • wow for some reason I thought I would sit up tonight and check out CL as I have not done it for a while and now am sitting her crying.

        You are so right, when a Church is dysfunctional it is just as bad a a dysfunctional marriage, though you cannot blame the church as a whole as many are to in awe of the minister/pastor/priest to question their intentions. I have had many who have looked at me in disbelief over my story when they became aware of the truth as they trust what they are told

        • Honey, if you have a call to use music for praise and healing, you will find a path for that. It’s part of rebuilding your life. These cheaters seem to take so much from their partners and children, but no one can take your gifts and talents. You are still recovering but when the times comes, the door will open.

      • It’s so true. I come from the most liberal of liberal denominations…but it’s still church. (As a friend likes to say, we’re the most pure form of Protestantism, nothing between us and Divinity, like books or clergy or creeds….) anyway. Church is church, when it comes to community. As I’ve said before, mine fled me in the face of ExH’s lies and adultery, much to my pain and confusion. Now I find that I am too afraid to recommit to another congregation. Just. cannot. trust.

        If the people who covenant to walk together in love and a search for meaning and justice abandon you, well, to me a covenant is a covenant. Our marriage vows were a covenant too–obviously a one sided belief in my former marriage!

        But I still don’t get the messed up congregations who close ranks against a hurting member, regardless of theology. It goes against the grain, and the purpose, no?

  • I think of Jesus and the woman he spoke to at the well. This woman had had several husbands and was currently just living with a man. We all know that women in those days had few rights. She had been divorced by those men for whatever reasons. She had not committed adultery since she was still alive. Women were stoned for infidelity.

    She was an outcast but Jesus, took time to talk with her. He understood her and cared. There was no shame coming from Him. I think about the way He loves me too. He knows all of my story. He cares and He gives me grace and strength to move forward. I love Him so much. No one understands like Him.

  • There is definitely a need for this kind of blog out there. I think too often Cheaters will try to guilt their Chumps into False Reconciliation through misuse of Scripture. However, true repentance involves changing one’s mind about something. Previously, one thought that adultery was justifiable. Now, the spouse must know in his or her heart that adultery is wrong. That fundamental shift in understanding will drive the adulterer to reject his or her previous actions and to seek to live a more godly and righteous life.

    If we put this in CL language, genuine remorse means owning the cheating, seeking out and going to therapy, getting the post-nup, and doing so while giving up any expectation that these actions entitle the cheater to forgiveness.

    I hope your blog helps others who have been victimized by Jesus Cheaters and by Christian faith communities who rush to embrace the sinner but reject the victim.

  • I was cheated on by my former fiance during the first 3 years of our relationship. I’m a Christian, he was not (yet), but we always go to church together.
    When we got engaged together in 4th year , he was baptized in our church.
    Sadly, it was during our engagement that I learned about his 4 other girls in the workplace but he lied to me (repeatedly) about it.
    When I gave some evidence, he never apologized, instead he just told me “I’m not yet a Christian at the time, remember?”
    Things have been hard for me since then. We got disengaged yesterday.
    Sorry for my english.

    • you may not have been a ‘Christian then’ but what about respectful? moral? faithful to the person our in a relationship with? how about just not being a moron?

      Stay strong Iamai

      • Thank you Sammie D. I must admit I am till very hurt and confused. Reading these articles about cheaters and chumps (like me) help me a lot..

    • Iamai, so sorry for your loss. Though when you look back I think you will see these events not as a loss but a blessing in disguise. You found out who this man really is before your life became even more tangled up with his. And who is he? Someone who not only cheats and lies but also refuses to accept responsibility and who will twist anything–including sacred principles–to suit his selfish desires, and then tries to make you feel ignorant on top of it all.

      You are well rid of such a man as you would be stomach virus.

      BTW, I don’t think being Christian matters as I am unaware of any major religion in the world that condones cheating.

    • “I’m not yet a Christian.”=FREE PASS! Not. You are hurt and upset, but eventually, you will be so glad you did not commit to a lifetime of lame ass excuses and poor treatment.

      • I may have been giving him a lot of “Free Pass” for years because I usually just forgive him.. even when the real issue is never resolved

        • Thinking in terms of religion, God expects us to acknowledge what we’ve done and stop doing it. Forgiveness is not a hall pass.

  • Our father, who art in heaven….hallowed be thy name….thy kingdom come…thy will be done…on earth as it is in heaven….give us this day our daily bread…AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE HAVE FORGIVEN THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US…

    That’s the part that kept ringing in my head as I swallowed the horse-sized bitter pill that a mom with a newborn who finds out about infidelity 6…7….8…..whatever one it was….in church while trying to figure my shit out. Um, I HAVE to forgive him or I can’t expect God to forgive me. I still struggle with it. I forgave. Forgave some more. Did what I thought I was “supposed” to do. Guess who got bent over again, less than a year later, with yet another POS for the POS? Me. Yeah…I really struggled with it because I believe that God forgives me. I am just now learning that God forgives me because I put the action in to change the behaviors and I WANT forgiveness. He didn’t care if he was forgiven. He cared if he could come back home, have access to funds and whatever so he could do it again. Stupid me.

    • Sure if you makes you feel better . . . forgive. That doesn’t mean you have to stay married to, trust someone, or waste more of your life with a cheater. Period.

      God doesn’t want any of his children being doormats. Your life is still your own and you are worthy of respect and should be treated well. Personally, I don’t worry about forgiveness too much; I let God or the Universe sort it out.

    • I think “forgiveness” is not a free pass to continue abusing people. Let cheaters go out into the world and ponder their choices. I think of forgiveness as a refusal to remain stuck in pain, fear, rage and anguish at the conduct of another person. It doesn’t erase what happened or negate the need to act in our own defense. My XH (not the cheater) is a substance abuser who transgressed many aspects of married life, by staying drunk from Friday to Monday morning. I certainly “forgive” him, I love him and care about what happens to him, and I would be there to provide what I can if something happened to him. But I can’t live with someone who is never sober when I am in the house. And the best thing I ever did for him is to say “if you choose drinking, we’re done.” The only way he will ever get his life together is if the consequences are big enough. Forgiveness involves an understanding of the transgression and an appropriate consequence, not a bungee cord that lets the “sinner” stretch it to the limit and bounce back again.

      • LAJ,

        “Forgiveness involves an understanding of the transgression and an appropriate consequence, not a bungee cord that lets the “sinner” stretch it to the limit and bounce back again.”

        Love that analogy! Stealing it!

      • I actually think forgiveness is the state of “meh.” Once you arrive at “meh” with your Cheater, you’re no longer giving them emotional or spiritual real estate. You don’t hate them, with them dead–or even think about them at all. If you see them, they’re there, but you don’t feel the need either to engage with them or withdraw from them. They’re essentially strangers. Human beings, but strangers. You don’t feel one way or the other.

        Chumps need anger, and possibly hate, to get unstuck. But it’s unhealthy over the long haul to live in anger and hate, and it shows that your Cheater still has power over you.

        Being at “meh” means that have let all that go. The Cheater no longer has any hold over you.

        “Meh,” like forgiveness, doesn’t require that you embrace the Cheater and welcome him or her back into the family. It doesn’t require that you “forget” the cheating. Instead, requires letting go of the anger and hate you acquired as a result of the cheating.

        All IMO, of course. Your own mileage may vary significantly. 🙂

        • I think you’re completely right . . . “forgiveness is the state of “meh.” It’s where you could give a damn whether the karma bus arrives and you don’t even care enough to wish bad things upon them. Most days, I’m already there. NC helps immensely with this. 🙂

          • I think deep down a lot of chumps know this about forgiveness and it is what we strive for. It is when external people that we have trusted weigh in in the issue that we begin to struggle. For me it was when people I trusted like family began telling me in the beginning, that I had to forgive even if it was a cold hearted decision. I was once told by my pastor to go and spend time with another woman in our church that had gone through a separation and reconciliation with her husband as she was being held up as some sort of bench mark on how I should handle myself in the situation. I asked if her husband had cheated. “no” was his answer, He did not like it when I told him that the two situations did not equate.
            they don’t get it.
            For me forgiveness is part way their but it is not for his benefit.

    • I will echo the sentiment that forgiveness does not equal staying in an abusive relationship. My Ex kept throwing that bull at me,”You just won’t forgive me. Why won’t you forgive me? I was sure you could forgive me. Can’t you forgive me for the sake of the children? I guess you’ll never forgive me because you’re too angy..” In one of the last conversations we have I made it very clear that I CAN forgive, I hope to forgive, I will continue to work on forgiving, and I will get there eventually. But that doesn’t mean I want to live with you or be near anyone who treats me the way you do. I don’t want it for my daughters, and I don’t want it for myself. So I will be setting a good example for them about what to expect from a man. That’s more important to me than whether or not you feel forgiven. I think that’s what God wants me to do.

      • I wanted to forgive from day 1 because I didn’t want to become bitter like some of the older, divorced women in my family. However, I still struggle with forgiving someone who blamed me for everything and never asked for my forgiveness. How could he when he believed it was all my fault? That’s the part I have trouble with. If he asked for forgiveness, that would be one thing, but he hasn’t and I don’t expect he ever will. The best I can do is let it go. That means I don’t wait for him to apologize before I move ahead with my life. On good days I feel like I’ve almost forgiven him, but on bad days my heart aches from so much loss. I’ve taken to laying my hands on my heart to soothe it when I’m trying to fall asleep. It seems to help.

  • One of the gifts the OW got my cheating lying atheist XH was a crucifix on a chain so he could wear it around his neck! Every time I saw it on him my blood would boil. Christians, dontcha know?~!

  • My ex used to joke he was an ordained minister but was tickled with his “I found Jesus. He was behind the sofa” t-shirt. I’m not religious, but I really don’t get the humor. When he wants to impress the ladies, he pretends he’s real tight with the Dalai Lama while obsessed with Kurt Vonnegut. He also doesn’t cover his mouth when he sneezes. I had to throw that in there to demonstrate just how gross he is.

    Anyway, Rev. Derksen is pretty cool and I appreciate a guy who calls adultery demonic. I used to think my ex was the devil. Then I figured out he wasn’t clever enough.

  • I am embarrassed to admit how my ex manipulated me through my faith. I actually believed that every time he got injured at the exact same time I had enough and was going to walk, was an act of God. In actual fact my ex would injure himself so I would feel sorry for him and stay. He even lied about being given 6 months to live.
    He staged events, ie: set the house he was living in on fire and placed the bible for me to find. An act of God that destroyed everything but the Bible. (I know I know, how naive could I be? I prefer naive to stupid, I have been called both)
    He had been raised by very religious parents and used his knowledge of the bible and ability to act like a God fearing small town boy to manipulate people all the time. It all came to a head when he went to Africa as a volunteer for a well known charity. He ended up getting a young Sudanese girl pregnant, stealing from the charity, and getting run out of Africa with the Sudanese police, the natives, and the LRA hot on his ass. He remained in contact with another woman there for 3 years telling her he was going to bring her to Canada and marry her. I dumped him.
    3 months later he calls and says he has been given 6 months to live (he said had Malaria, its been 5 years and he is still alive) apologized for everything and begged me to take him back. God had spoken to him.
    I had to move and prayed that God would find a place for me to live and prayed for very specific things. My ex called me and told me of a house in the next province that he heard was for sale and he didn’t know why he was telling me but something was telling him he should. ( God?) I took the house and agreed to marry him. He flew out to help me pack. I had talked to the owner of the house and he said it was fully furnished so I gave away everything except my most treasured possessions. I was self employed and had told all my customers I was leaving. The day we heading out my ex said to call the guy and tell him we were on the way. I was going to call when we got closer but he pulled over (he was driving) so I called. The guy answered and said, “Carrie……. I guess I should have called. I got an offer I couldn’t refuse yesterday and I sold the house.” I was instantly homeless and totally dependent on him. The next 2 years were absolute hell and by the time I got away from him I was a shell of the woman I had been and my faith was shattered, along with my business, self confidence and hope. It has taken me 3 years to rebuild myself.
    He used faith to manipulate his mother, me and many more people in ways that are unforgivable. I have been told by (Mostly) religious people that I need to forgive and forget in order to heal and I say let God judge me for not forgiving the asshole. My ex hasn’t asked for forgiveness, he used my forgiveness to hurt me further and he can kiss my ass. I don’t care what he does, who he is with as long as he stays clear of me, I don’t wish him ill, but I will never forgive. Some people deserve to rot in hell in my opinion but that is not up to me to decide. I leave that in God’s or Karma’s hands and concern myself with how I live my life.

    • OMG! What a jerk! Wow. You can forgive but never forget. You have to remember in order to learn.

      • Ladywithatruck, you are awesome. I am horrified that a person can do the things they do and we see a lot of it here on CL, but your story took my breath away. That you are even here to tell your story I find encouraging. stay strong.

        I once demanded of those who kept telling me I had to forgive to explain what that was meant to look like, I got word salad. Forgiveness takes many forms. IMO as long as I can look at STBX without wishing him dead I’m good.

  • My ex is a total Jesus cheater. He considers himself a hardcore Christian believer, and used the fact that I am Jewish as an excuse for his cheating. He recently told our son that he is “disappointed” son is Jewish, and that he “feels sorry for son.” Ex is always bleating about how he does everything for Jesus, is so blessed by him, blah blah blah. Yet still is a liar, still a deceiver, still a con artist. He once told me that he was sent into my life because I was a “lost lamb” and Jesus wanted him to “bring me back to the path.” This from the guy who was having sex with other men even in our dating days and continued to do so our entire marriage.

    Right after Dday, ex recommended I go talk to the pastor at the church he was attending back then. I was so desperate, I did. Pastor seemed sort of confused and overwhelmed, but was kind and listened to me cry. Well, it turns out ex also had his OW going to the pastor along with him! So this pastor was being used as a sort of triangulation, and in a way, ex was showing off to the guy how he had two women fighting over him! So sick.

    • You know, Glad, every time I read about your ex (and right now I think telling your son that his Jewishness is a disappointment might really be the worst, but then you’ll post something else, and I know it will do my head it even more!) I feel the urge to do violence to him.

      And I am in a peace church.

    • He does everything for Jesus?! Poor Jesus… has this fuckwit dancing as a Yeti for him. Fucking dudes for him. Passing off his half eaten boxes of Cream of Wheat for him. Jesus has to accept all this stupidity in his name?

      I’d tell your ex, oh I know someone who had a Jewish son — GOD!

      Jesus was a Jew.

      Glad, could your ex be any more ridiculous?

      • “I know someone who had a Jewish son — GOD!”

        Snappy comeback, FTW.

        Reminds me of that little ditty by the incomparable Kinky Friedman, “They Ain’t Makin’ Jews Like Jesus Anymore”:

        I think Kinky would agree that Mr. Furry Blue Suit could use a good cross-cultural ass-kicking.

      • He told our son that the fact that son identifies as Jewish (he has a Jewish mother, for crying out loud, and it was certainly no secret to ex that I’m Jewish when we got married) shows that ex is “a failure as a Christian father.” I agree he is a failure as ANY sort of father, but not because son identifies as Jewish.

        Seriously, you couldn’t make my ex up. Our son just turned 18 last month, but still has another year of high school ahead. Asked ex if he would take son to supercuts for a cheap haircut. Ex replied that son “needs to get a job” and pay his own way. Umm, this is the guy currently living in an old RV parked in his sister’s driveway, the same guy who has refused to get a regular job for the past four years, the same guy who is $38K behind in child support, the same guy who mooches money off his family all the time and cons people out of money, the same guy who lived off unemployment for YEARS and told son he “saw no reason to get a job” as long as he could get unemployment. Yeah, our son is the one who needs to man up.

        Sorry, all of this stuff with my son happened in the past week or so, and I’m still pretty angry.

        • Glad,

          By the time I get to the end of one your posts, my eyes are opened wide and my mouth is hanging open. I know my STBX is a pile of animal shit (monkey, elephant, hippopotamus, donkey, bull and dog), but your EX is all of that, with some hyena shit thrown on top with flies buzzing around. He is what the term “what the fuckity-fuck” is all about.

          Jeez, Glad! (((HUGS)))

          • “I know my STBX is a pile of animal shit (monkey, elephant, hippopotamus, donkey, bull and dog), but your EX is all of that, with some hyena shit thrown on top with flies buzzing around. He is what the term “what the fuckity-fuck” is all about.”

            ROFLMAO!!! Geez CP, don’t hold back or anything. Tell us how you REALLY feel!

        • Glad- you can ditch “sorry” on this site. You’re in good company 🙂 You should be angry.

            • Glad you are inspiring to me. I am sure one day I will find out what he Yeti thing is all about, but right now I want to say thank you. I too read your posts and find my mouth hanging open as I can relate to much of it.
              The self righteous christian blow hard that sits in home group among people who know the truth (and others who just think we are having a time out because I refuse to get past a few small issues in our marriage) and begins the waterworks to invoke their sympathy. about how hard his life has been and how he has always proclaimed Jesus as his savour and that because he loves God good will come of his bad situation. He fully acts as though this situation has been inflicted upon him it was not of his doing and therefore God will make good out. and yep if our son needs anything he has to jump through hoops to get it.

  • My Catholic faith was what I used to rationalize marriage to an asshole for 18 long years. I would play the religion card when people (friends, sisters, MY FATHER) would encourage me to divorce his lazy, dull, passive-aggressive ass, telling them that I made a vow to love him for better or worse. I made the best of it, but in all truthfulness, I was living a miserable, lonely life to a self-absorbed excuse of a man. While I bent over backwards to normalize our family life in the public eye, he never gave two shits about me — EVER. I was a prop in his life, a servant. X’s cheating was the catalyst for me to say no more. It was my deal breaker.

    Still, when our divorce was decreed at the courthouse by a judge, I had a very strong, emotional reaction. Turns out the vows I took at the altar of the Holy Father – now null and void at the bench of a visiting judge – were part of the essence of who I thought I was; they mattered a lot to me. It took months of therapy to figure out breaking our vows began with X’s cheating. I could have danced for 20 more years, but in the end I couldn’t break something that had already been broken.

    Today, I am a divorced woman. While I’m thankful to be finally living a genuine life that is nearly free (still have to deal with him as it relates to our sons) of a mean man, I lost my religion in the process. And my faith is being formed every day, rooted in truth.

    X still wears the suit and attends mass every Sunday with his bimbo. They are holy rollers. That did it for me. Any church that would welcome two cheating assholes into their flock is not a place I want to worship.

    X’s cheating — while vile and inexcusable — actually freed me from a lonely marriage and the belief that I had to accept his neglect and passive abuse because I was a married catholic woman.

    No more.

    • Chutes- “Turns out the vows I took at the altar of the Holy Father – now null and void at the bench of a visiting judge – were part of the essence of who I thought I was; they mattered a lot to me. It took months of therapy to figure out breaking our vows began with X’s cheating. I could have danced for 20 more years, but in the end I couldn’t break something that had already been broken.”

      Marriage is supposed to matter. Of course part of your essence was tied to your marriage, that’s how it’s supposed to go. The asshole you married is the one who didn’t care or think anything mattered. I’m glad you were able to be free of him and find some healing. You’re a strong woman 🙂

  • Oh my … my XH went to Catholic High School, was a Knight of Columbus, sang in several church choirs (and this is where the halo slips), married 3 times (I was the 3rd) and is presently living with the OW. I met him when he joined my church and began singing in the church choir. Little did I know that while he was putting the bums rush on me, he was living with another woman. Of course, I heard all the stories of how his first 2 wives had cheated on him (later found out he cheated on both of them, and one of those cheats was with his wife’s sister). He pushed the woman he was living with out the door the day before he showed me his house. When he showed me his bedroom it had this enormous tv in it. The next time I was in his bedroom (several weeks later) the tv was gone. When I asked him where it was he told me that it broke down and he got rid of it. It belonged to his old girlfriend and she had come to get it.

    From the time we started dating, he continued seeing the old girlfriend. I didn’t know. We married in quick order because you know it is hard keeping up the charade. All the while, he was seeing her too. I found out a short while later. Of course, all the promises of breaking it off. He didn’t.

    We went to 3 Masses most every weekend and sat side by side, holding hands, kissing at the sign of peace and he would always say, “I love you”. Guess he didn’t get much out of attending.

    The girlfriend that he continued to see after we were married died of cancer and then he was found on Facebook by an old high school sweetheart…according to her, his first love. Keep in mind he continued to go to church all of this time receiving communion every time.

    When we broke up all of our friends in the choir who were my friends first (he had none of his own … come to think of it, never did meet one friend of his from jobs, high school, ever) shunned him…and he couldn’t understand why.

    When I told him they were having a hard time stomaching being friends with an adulterer, he said, “I didn’t commit adultery. She’s not married.” When I tried to say, but you are. He insisted it didn’t matter if he was married, only if she was.

    There’s a good Catholic education for you.

    At present, my Jesus Cheater isn’t attending church because, in his words, if he can’t sing church just doesn’t do it for him. It’s all about the show!

      • Oh the show, as long as they look right and can sing and in our case raise their hands and take communion every week. Mine would always hold my hand or put his hand on my lap in church, kiss me after the sermons so people would comment on what a great loving couple we were. (this was all part of his master cover story) STBX even stood twice in the 18 months leading up to d’day and took the sermon. How he did not spontaneously combust is beyond me, no shame at all.
        And the justification if they can twist some part of it to sound less hideous than it actually is that is ok.

        She’s not married.” When I tried to say, but you are. He insisted it didn’t matter if he was married, only if she was. WTF?

        My STBX’s line I will never forget is,” only the first one was an affair the rest was just oral sex”. And this twisted grip on reality makes it better, how?

        • “How he did not spontaneously combust is beyond me, no shame at all.”

          Sammie D I wonder the same thing again and again. We went to a nondenominational church. Last time at church together (he had just told me that day before he was leaving me because he didn’t love me anymore but I still didn’t know about the OW), the pastor talked about fighting for your marriage, my stbx was crying, kneeling, praying, I was crying thinking God had prepared this message to change his mind and save my marriage of 20 years. Then the pastor asked husbands to give communion to their wives and bless them. The f cheater did it, he said “I give you communion as your husband”. Eventually I learned he was cheating on me for months and he had cheated many many times before. How in the world did he didn’t spontaneously combusted its beyond me too. I can only imagine how that offended and hurt Jesus. It is sick. And today, almost two years later, no repentance, blame shifting, telling everybody that he is a man of God…I want to throw up.

          • Don’t forget, Judas was one of the inner circle when he kissed Jesus and turned him over to be crucified. Patterns don’t change.

  • Yes I struggled with my faith after being cheated on. Being catholic and my dad cheated on my mom and my mom would not sign off on annulled after 17 years, which I agree with her, that is too many years to do that. And my cheating dad was very angry then as he wanted the sin of adultery not to be a mortal sin and oh my mom wouldn’t help him with that, a shame, a boo hoo to slut dad there.

    Then I wasn’t going to get married after witnessing all that, but did. Figured my husband who was brought up catholic with a nun for an aunt (me too) would really understand the marriage vows.


    He is looking for another church.

    Several priests told me that me not annulling marriage is me condoning it and maybe that is a sin of some sort. I have a future of being alone as if I date or think an interest since I am married in the churches mind, that is a mortal sin.

    To hell with it all, I was true. It is hard for me to rationalize this as a lot of priests molest the church going kids. True that happens a lot in life on earth, YET this church is slinging a mortal sin at me when I was true.

    I have issues on all this.

    All not from me being true.

  • I was brought up sitting on a Baptist church pew Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday nights, and later was drug by my parents through a series of extreme Pentecostal churches’ legalism, so naturally, I hung on for dear life after my ex cruelly walked out without so much as a cross word ever between us.

    I’d been drinking the kool aid, thinking that being the sweet, pious, humble wife in the background, reassuring him that he was a ” good” person who’d just given in to Satan and a lust demon (and reassuring him that I would always be praying for him) would eventually bring him back to me … Ya know … whenever the She-Devil’s lack of character became apparent to him and he had the epiphany oh how good he has it/what he’d lost. In church they call it “the law of contrast”.

    Eeech, I still cringe at the pitiful desperate “pick me” emails I sent to him, taking the blame for all the crap HE did wrong in the relationship but was now somehow projecting on to ME!

    At the urging of an elder Sister in the church, I took her sage advice and explained that he was right … I had indeed worked too much (clue: I was the primary breadwinner) and that yes, he must’ve felt isolated when I came home tired and had to answer emails. (Clue: I don’t have any type of degree but made a GREAT salary, managed multimillion dollar businesses, and was considered an influencer in my profession. In a delusion I suppose, because I was glad to do [thinking I was the great woman of Proverbs who “rose early and worked hard for her family] made this kind of money for HIM and the family … He was obsessed with having more.) but, I digress …

    Anyway, at her direction, I groveled, admitted to these things in writing (eg., not paying as much attention to him as I should), all while knowing that wasn’t true, but in efforts to see him finally “won by the chaste behavior and character of the wife”.

    Unlike many of you, my little PrinceCharming left me for … Of all things … a psychologist, who fed him from her BS trough, and, as a good liitle puppet havind advance counseling, HE was the one who led the card game with an Ace and went No Contact from Day One. Walked out. No notice. Gifts and cards and flowers at work right up till the day he dropped the bomb. …. Out the door in 10 minutes. Bam! No contact since then. Left the country.

    I said all that to say this. All that blubbering, snot-slinging, crying, vomiting, rolling up into fetal position on the bathroom floor pain, was exacerbated by ME heaping on mounds of humiliation ON MY OWN SELF by ascribing to this “religious notion” that my gnavelike groveling and “being in subjection” would prick his heart. Ha! Just saw that play on words here. He is a Prick and he has no heart. I made a pun.

    Seriously though, our church was a bully pulpit for other narcissist men who specialized in all the “subjection” scriptures. Our sect is so strict as to saay that that a woman could NEVER remarry unless her husband was dead, no matter what the circumstances.

    Well my Dear Departed was relying on this and thought for sure that my strict adherence to the church beliefs would assure him a steady diet of ego kibbles. He could run off, get blow jobs into infinity from Suckem’ Silly Sally (he made sure to tell me that she loved the hell out of fellatio … something frowned on by the church) and that since I “technically” couldn’t remarry, he envisioned that I’d be forever there in the background, going to the end of the driveway every night to look down the lane for him … you know dutifully expecting that the Prodigal Son to return, so we could sound the alarm and kill The Fatted Calf.

    Well maybe his Deacon-in-the-Baptist-Church dad (who himself used to be involved in wife-swapping) might schedule auch a roast, but not this left behind wife who got kicked in the teeth with no notice, for no reason … Other than he smelled more money elsewhere.

    As it turned out … and in a refreshing twist … it was a very prominent internationally known and revered Elder statesman in our church who sent word to me that I should go ahead and divorce him. His sound advice was, “in caseyou hadnt notices, HE divorced YOU, (the Bible calls it “putting the wife away”) the day he walked out. You’re just making it legal to protect yourself. Who knows what he may have done that you don’t know about. He’s overseas. He stole the famil,money. What else is he capable of?”

    The bottom line to all this religion stuff is that this same minister made some excellent points about The 10 Commandments that have always atuck out in my mind, and what now SOOOO underscores what Rev. Dr. George Simon and Rev. Chump Lady espouse, and it is this: The 10 Commandments (and Moses’ granting such a thing as a law of Divorce) was a direct were result of “the hardness of people’s hearts”.

    In other words, The Ten Commandments, contrary to popular thinking, are not something to strive for, but they are MINIMAL ACCEPTABLE STANDARDS set forth out of necessity …. because there was a character deficit.

    In other words, people WITH character do these naturally AND MUCH MORE. In other words, The Ten Commandments were given because (being devoid of an internal moral compass to guide them) there now had to be rules like “Thou shalt not commit adultery” and “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife”.

    And finally, think about this Religious Chumps … even God (who allows everyone a choice and free will) isn’t a pushover like we are. Even He says, “Ok, I won’t overrule your choices, bu please know … there are consequences.”

    So ladies … if we are, as they say, made in The Image of God, then we too can go ahead and allow them they’re choices (they made them anyway). Heck, we can even forgive (because forgiveness benefits US not the offender). But, at the end of the day (week, month, year, epoch), there are consequences.

    So, as to stay in my habit of leaving you with a aong to cement the concept, I think Crazy Arthur Brown says it best in his 60’s hit (link below). Join me in this Chump favorite eulogy.

    By the way Chump Lady, wasn’t the lowest level of Dante’s inferno reserved for these minded people? (I never actually read it. maybe I’ll do that.)

    Don’t forget to watch the video. Smile.

    • “And finally, think about this Religious Chumps … even God (who allows everyone a choice and free will) isn’t a pushover like we are. Even He says, “Ok, I won’t overrule your choices, bu please know … there are consequences.”

      My pastor counseled me to divorce stbx as well as other Christian counselors and friends. Their basic philosophy is to forgive, but not expect a snake or a rat to change its basic nature. Furthermore there are consequences, a reaping to all of the chaos resulting from said behavior.

      Living a sinful life does loads of damage to the body as well as relationships. I wish stbx all the best but I am not responsible to provide nursing services or any other wifey duties. Girlfriends, OW, ho s, etc love all the benefits but are unavailable to hold your hand, change your Depends or help you recover when needed….unless they are waiting for a payday that is.

    • Wonderful post. And the best explanation I’ve ever heard of the Ten Commandments. Your X, sadly, has no idea of the gem he walked away from.

  • How about go to confession and say a hail mary and a couple of our fathers and it is all brand new.

    No, I do not agree with the catholic logic, so I do not attend catholic mass anymore.

    A big boo shout out to the catholic church.

  • I belong to no church now.

    Saying a few prayers and feeling bad does not make up for fucking a whore and being a whore yourself.

    That’s all I have to say on it, a huge trigger for me.

    The ow has a 2 foot golden spray painted cross in her living room, that must make this all ok.


    No WRONG

  • I really think in a way a lot of men look at marriage as a form of servitude from women, and the church is baking them up. I can’t even comment any further on this, it is just not even being treated as an equal or a human the way some men think.

    I was at Costco the other day and a woman about my girls age was pumping gas, and this leering disgusting middle aged man had no qualms about open ogling her, looking her up and down, he might as well have been having saliva dripping from his mouth.

    I am no prude at all, no way, but I have an issue with this attitude a lot of men have. It might as well be 1962. Or 1949.

    Yeah it was ok when women were building the planes and helping the war effort but as as soon as it was over, lost their jobs, and in came those hideous shirts that billowed up.

    So angry now, women are just giving up their rights as humans in so many ways.

  • backing not baking, you know only women can bake come on girls we all know it is true

    let me throw up now

  • Here is how my “husband” thought of me as a piece of meat.

    He told me he liked the ow because…

    1. She went shopping with her girlfriends (excuse the flying fuck out of me for being on a budget and taking care of the family)

    2. She did not talk..(where I go in my head with this one is not a good place, yeah shut up baby get on with the blow job or bend over more)

    Those were his only two issues, he said I was a good wife. It just took shit for soul fuckface 32 years to figure out he wanted a non talking shopping freak to fuck, not a partner or wife.

    • Madonna/whore complex. Things always change a little when you become someone’s mother. When I became about the same age as his mother was when we got married, things changed a lot. It was all over.

      I also think they are secretly terrified of aging and death. And of not being in control.

      Hard dogs to keep under the porch, for sure.

      • Ding! Ding! Ding! Right answer.

        They make us their mothers by being boys and then hate us for it. They can’t face their mortality and getting older (as reflected by us getting older) so they revisit their youth. Then since they only classify women as mothers or hookers, they find themselves a whore who gives them a charge and makes them feel “alive”.

        Sam Vaknin, author of Narcisissm Revisited (a self-proclaimed malignant narcissist himself) says that to a narcissist, even when they are married or in a “committed” relationship, the partner is only a “mastabatory object”. He says they are masturbating alone but using our orifice. Eeeeeeeeew!

        In light of all of this, good riddance. Let the OW or OM have the little gem.

  • Forgiveness and reconciliation are NOT synonymous.

    The only thing we can do as imperfect peers and mortals is to shed light on right and attempt to persuade (and in the case of children guide) others to see the value in it and behave accordingly. We can attempt to always set a good example–which (while impossible) will significantly improve our own performance as decent human beings. This is the best we can do.

    Even Jesus acknowledged that there would be failures to convert some people. Some scriptures come to mind in this context.

    Matthew 10:13-14

    …13″If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14″Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

    Corinthians 1:14-16

    …14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?


    When we can remove ourselves from the desire to be judge, jury and executioner (because we were not a successful “fixer” of another), and when we can look at the adulterer and see him or her in much the same light as we would a flawed stranger (someone who needs our prayers but whom we do not allow to intrude into our inner peace), then we will have made significant progress toward forgiveness, healing, and having the kind of peace we will NEVER find until we let them go…physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Hence the familiar saying, “Let go, and let God.”

    It’s a process. It’s very difficult. There will be lapses. One needs to be vigilant about lapses and bring them to a screeching halt. Sadly, some chumps will choose to never let go. But to the extent that you can make progress toward that end and without expecting perfection, it will commensurately revitalize your life with peace. I’ve been there. It works.

    • Thanks for your post, Notyou. I struggle with so much anger and bitterness. I want to be at that stage eventually where, as you say, he becomes a distant stranger who for whom I can have the compassion and decency to pray, but who no longer affects my peace and happiness. Your post gave me hope that I can get there.

  • Here’s my funny, because at times you have to laugh.

    OW’s credit history is a disaster. She’s been in collections, declared bankruptcy, etc. So, of course she can’t get a car loan.

    STBX to the rescue! He agrees to be her co-signer! Now, the rejection letters come to the house, addressed both to STBX and OW. I, of course, open the letter, which infuriated STBX. I asked him point-blank, “did you agree to co-sign a loan for Ima Ho?” He told me that no, he hadn’t. All he did was act as a “character reference.” Yeah, right. I played that I believed him, and said that it was a good thing, since Schmoopie was a terrible credit risk and had been in collections several times, and that STBX needed to ask himself if he could afford taking on an extra car payment if Schmoopie missed a couple.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think STBX had ever thought that part through. 😉

    Anyway, Schmoopie had dropped me as a Facebook friend, and in fact had blocked me. However, I had access to STBX’s computer at that time and noticed that Schmoopie had posted a picture of her next to her new car.

    The caption? “Thank you, Jesus!” No, honey, Jesus did not get you that car. My STBX did!”

    I told that to my lawyer, who had to laugh out loud, saying “she must have seen him coming a mile away!”

    Of course, Schmoopie is happy to tell everyone that she goes to church every Sunday, and yes, she’s an Evangelical….

  • Jesus cheaters? What can you say? If they’re religious, they throw that crap around and use it to justify what they do.

    If they’re just “spiritual”, then they throw around justifications that fit in with whatever cockamamie improvisation kludge of a world view they claim to own.

    If they’re Pastafarians, I am sure the giant spagetti monster’s will is being done too.

    If they’re not religious, then I am pretty sure the absence of a deity plays a significant role in whatever BS they come up with.

    • Bottom line is that it’s just another way to gaslight and blameshift–and possibly to hoover. People don’t want to see themselves as liars and cheats. They don’t want to accept the responsibility for doing bad things, since that means they’ll have to accept the consequences. Telling their Chump that the Chump needs to forgive them because hey Jesus, or the FSM, or FOO–that’s their attempt to avoid consequences and hoover the Chump back in.

      So, yeah.

  • Oh, these stories are rich. And really sad, too.

    My husband took up religion with his ho after ignoring it for our entire marriage. They eagerly attended a mega-church with my child and hers, presumably choosing a religious gathering so large that no one would ask them why they were both married to other people, living together, and dragging their kids into the mess while professing to be Good Christians (TM).

    That church thang lasted a few months, then it changed to watching church on TeeVee (big committers, these folks) and now? It seems to no longer be important to them, and is never mentioned by my child after custody time with dad.

    Perhaps the Soulmates (TM) realized they were in danger of bursting into flames walking in the door of the church? Maybe they learned to spell hypocrite?

    I was raised Christian and quietly kept in touch with God all along… when STBX dashed off to his Schmoopie’s married arms, I turned to a local church for help and support through their Divorce Care program. I gained some understanding and nice friends and a gentle circle of support, as did my child.

    It is still ironic that the first time he attended Sunday School at ‘our’ church, the lesson was on the 7th Commandment. He brought home a number of worksheets and items to discuss with his parents about adultery: what it meant and so on. Thereby, to me, proving the existence and wry ways of God.

    STBX, not surprisingly, didn’t appreciate our son’s questions and church experience that day as we were supposedly reconciling but in fact he was still seeing his married lover. However, none of this stopped him from continuing to lie to all of us about his adulterous activities.

  • This topic touches a major nerve with me. At least two people, who knew exactly why I wanted to divorce, urged me not to because I needed to “honor my vow.” One of these incidents happened on a day I was particularly depressed. This religious freak was my kids’ school crossing guard and I thought she was my friend. Right across from the school was a park with a bridge over a stream. That day, I actually considered jumping off the bridge. Her comments made me that despondent.

    The weekend after I left my husband, I spent some quality time on the internet researching the Bible’s stance on divorce. Funny thing is, I discovered that infidelity is a Biblically-sanctioned cause for divorce. And the thought finally occurred to me–hey, adultery is discussed in the Ten Commandments, but divorce ISN’T.

    BTW I was brought up Catholic, and I was raised to think divorce was wrong. I am not the most religious person, but I really wanted to know the Bible’s stance on all this–an “insurance policy” in case I become more religious someday, I suppose.

    I’m glad to see the “Divorce Minister” out there! Blog on!

    • Divorce per se’ may be “wrong”, especially for those with a strong religious upbringing such as yourself . . . But I’m glad you realize that infidelity trumps the vows you made. You didn’t break an agreement, your spouse did. A lot of chumps get hung up on that because we MEAN what the fuck we SAY and promise to.

      Nobody needs to to remain married to a person who “accidentally” shoots bullets at us. And that’s what infidelity is.

  • Don’t know why today I was reminded of something that happened years ago in our small community. He was a big fish in a little pond. He was having a wonderful time with his mistress when he had a major stroke. It did not affect his mind but it affected everything else. Every day several times a day his wife would say to her bedridden husband, “Where is your sweetheart now, honey?” She kept that up every day until he died. She outlived him for many years.
    Also, saw on the news that a big wig with Google was given a bad dose of heroin while on his yacht and died. The lovely woman who administered the dose drank some wine, stepped over his still warm body and just boogied on. Except for the fact that his poor family is left with his legacy this still makes me cackle. The witch comes out in me every now and then. In both cases the karma bus ran over these two men, then backed up and did it again

    • You would probably love that Tyler Perry/Madea movie ‘Diary of a Mad Black Woman’. The karmic payback is awesome. My personal schadenfreude guilty pleasure.

      • Chumpalicious. I literally was crying and laughing watching that movie…at the same time. I promise. I love the chainsaw scene!!!

  • LT OW hides under the banner of God. I found her God Squadiness a weird attraction element for asshat cheater as I do NOT attend church regularly.

    For a period of time, asshat was on my case to find a Unitarian type church. I thought this heightened interest was strange since he has always known that I am a recovering Catholic. I don’t mind religion, but I do not feel compelled to be a part of organized religion. Our kids are raised on Christian holidays and basic beliefs, but they have in no way had structured religious instruction. I can now assume this was the influence of the OW.

    She’d send him porn links that they would then reenact and then immediately send scripture. What a fucking hypocrite. It IS fuckwads like this that absolutely turn me off to organized religion. It’s amazing these creeps think each commandment came with an addendum to make their shitty behavior ok in their black souls.

  • Ho # 3 was the wife if a deacon in the church. She friended me in FB, ostensibly to let me know that she sympathized with me (puke). When I called her on her shit and asked what her husband would think of her “godliness”, she invited me to “go ahead and tell that fine man” who, unlike my ex, would never cheat on her. She felt “compelled to confess” the play by play of ex’s decidedly unromantic sexual exploits (in her pick up truck) and added a few further covert insults to “make me feel better”. I copied the entire sickening “confession”, along with the 6 pages of their sexting foreplay and sent it to her husband in an envelope marked “prayer request”. I don’t think any of the other ho-workers can rival the twisted righteousness of this sick and perverted Jesus-cheater. My ex still adamant that she chased him because he truly loves Jesus. No wonder since he considers his “faith” a get out of jail free card.

    I truly loved him and believed that he was the epitome of the prodigal son returned. We were very active in our non-denom church and he hid his secret life so well that, if anyone suspected, they sure didn’t let on. But I think back to a photograph that I found strangely disturbing a year before D-day – he was on a missions trip to South America with my former pastor. Four men and four women made the trip and none were married. The picture shows the four men posing on the edge of a volcano – with their hands held as if pretending to pee. Yeah, I left that church for more reasons than that – and it’s taken me three years to forgive God for allowing me to be dragged through the shit so thoroughly. I was naive, trusting and had a servant’s heart – perfect chump bait for a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I agree that many narcissists believe themselves “called” to the church because it provides all kinds of kibble and cake to those who seek power and control over others. Thankfully, I am rediscovering my spirituality and faith through many avenues including the United Methodist church, which I find refreshingly inclusive.

    My former pastor certainly seemed to believe that adultery was more forgivable for the man than a woman – Just more of that male domination society bullshit that I can’t stomach any more. So glad to free from the double standard and cognitive dissonance of Jesus Cheater life. Meh!

  • Well…,brief version . Hubby gets “a calling” and leaves a well paying job to go back to school while our kids are little .
    7 years worth of education later, and a giant EA/PA with a fellow student, he graduates, gets a parish and moves us to an unknown city.
    The usual – wedding ring in the wash, justafriend neeeeds me, you’re not the boss of me mumbo jumbo.
    We are interviewed by the new parish as a family. They approve – we move .
    As I am unpacking boxes I am told it is a bad marriage, a failed marriage and that he is DONE!
    I stay for 6 months with no options as to where to go what to do. The house is a rectory with his office in it – right next door to the church. He had made it very clear that the house IS HIS.
    He gives the old. “It’s a mutual decision speech to the congregation ” and no one blinks an eye when I finally leave .
    His congregation love him. I don’t even exist. I get assistance from a women’s shelter and complete strangers in order to maintain a roof over my head.
    Nothing had changed. His family opened their arms to MOW to the point tbT they hired her on their church snd inserted her into what had once been my life.
    I am without support ( too much debt from school ) and have lost all faith in organized religion.
    I am on my way to Meh with the stbx narc that he is. Forgiving the church is another story. Long way to go there.

    • Oh yeah, one more thing. Your ex’s very own Bible says that “a man who provides not for his own household has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.”

      So, getting technical here, that means he is disqualified from leading the flock … which I am sure he is fleecing.

      • Give a look on what I wrote, i was on 1 Timothy 5.8 but God dont take that so serious, the mine is very similar, im sad for she too, my best wishes that she will win.

    • Lisah,

      My heart goes out to you. How awful!!! This is SO WRONG!!! I am sorry that you went through this. I hope you have people now that support you. Know that one pastor, me, thinks your ex is a scoundrel and unfit to be a minister of God.

    • Sweetheart Im so sad for read this, i hope you find your way, pay your debths and show everyone that you and not that asshole is a winner and please never trust a church being again, you will win if there any justice on this universe. My best wishes ever to you. I have a very similar case on the end of this page, you at least, i hope, have health, a thing i havent. The worst persons I ever meet i meet inside a church, God denied me even peace to die.

  • I was a christian since childhood and had a very sad life since i was born, i tried to be a good christian and do the right things, im not perfect but i did my best. I need some help to understand some facts. Im a very sick person with a life threatening condition, i work a lot sometimes more than 12 hours day plus weekends, my efforts are to fullfill the command of Christ in 1 Timothy 5.8 and for it I gave all and sink on debth. My job is far many miles from my home and i travel every day, on few years i had many oportunities given from satan to eat forbidden meat, many womans asked for sex but I refused for love of God, its on the following list:

    1st quarter the coworker AA wanted cheat her fiancee with me, she was very pretty – i refused
    2nd quarter the coworker AB wanted cheat her fiancee with me too, she was very pretty too – i refused
    4th quarter a married woman that travel with me on the same bus everyday wanted cheat her husband and offer herself to me on scandalous way she was really actrative – i refused, she got ashamed and asked me to forgive
    7th quarter another woman on bus that travel with me on the same bus everyday wanted cheat her boyfriend offer herself to me on scandalous way too she was really actrative – i refused too
    11th quarter another woman on another bus that travel with me on the same bus everyday wanted cheat her fiancee offer herself to me she was really actrative – i refused too
    11th quarter another woman on another bus that travel with me on the same bus everyday wanted cheat her boyfriend offer herself to me she was really easy – i refused too
    15th quarter one day i losted bus and a woman on metro wanted cheat the boyfriend, she begged to stay with she, she was amazing pretty – i refused too
    16th quarter the coworker AC wanted cheat on husband and told me a lot of bad things about her lazy husband – i refused too
    16th quarter the coworker AD wanted cheat on husband telling me to have sex whith she on a desert place inside our workplace – i refused too
    18th quarter the coworker AE wanted cheat on husband, she waited until I be alone on office and got naked – i refused too
    Im telling about only woman wanting cheating but there is other i refused for not being christian womans.

    All above can make someone think i havent libido and that was easy, believe me, wasnt, my libido make my blood boil inside my veins.

    Some months before the 16st quarter above i started a relationship with my loved one, that time she already had an infectious contagious incurable condition and bone deformities by birth on all her flat body but i never had a prejudice about it, instead i give all love i was able, she always told me how i was romantic and sweet with she.

    She insisted 3 months calling me almost every day, i told so many times about my life threatening condition and the command of Christ in 1 Timothy 5.8 that make me without funds to buy a candy but she told me many times she dont care and wanted me, i loved she so much and she was a christian woman then God approves it.

    I agree with she to wait until our marriage and worked harder to find a way to marry she, i havent enough to a bonbon box but doing all at my reach to marry and be a good husband, i dreamed a lot with our little future daughter, i dreamed on give my love all life to she.

    She was a CHEATER, and very agressive, i was always sweet, she called me so many times dog, she told me that she desired the other male members of the church and look to all of then, she told me was rubbing her buttocks on coworkers, told me about mens asking she to have sex on elevator, she never allowed me to toutch she, she one day called me on my job by the early morning to tell me was talking all night with another men of church and was curious about his taste, wanted try it and told me the worst things possible, humiliate me, i blood a lot that day, my body reacted, i losted the little health i had, since that day im a dead one, my heart still beats and i still breath but im really dead, i know its hard to belief but trust me, the physical death to someone on my condition is a bless.

    I spent my money to fullfill Christ commandment and not in a brothel, so many times my corworkers invited me, they are so happy with they wifes and sons, im alone, dishonored, sad, sick, dead and ashamed, some of coworkers listened all while i was on phone and laughted at me asking me if i went to church to be betrayed, my cowork told me i was better married with a brothel prostitute than with a church woman, told me that prostitutes are more loyal, told me to stop being a dumb and enjoy life on brothels, asked me if God is worth of being served, told me he workship satan and never was cheated by his cheated wife, i remembered Job on that time, on bible God reward Job with much more than he had but i think ton of gold today cant make me happy, nothing can, nothing than my physical dead and God revenge, Deuteronomy 32:35, are worth to me, its only things i still dream on this life. She is from Christian Congregation and there people believe on prophecy, a “prophet” threatened me with death from pulpit in favor of she, everyone inside church know what she did and everyone was at her side, everyone protect she and another well know wicked persons, there one married “profet” caught many times on bed with other mans and everyone almost workship he. Satan wanted feed me many times with juice and forbidden meat but i refused, then God rewarded me with a dry, deformed, infected and treacherous bone that was my loved fiancee. I never will trust nobody on my life.

    My question is: Why im sick, disonored, dead inside, alone, poor, thinking about suicide all the time, years with insomnia, tormentad by satan that ask me every second if all that effort was worth while she is heath, honored, alive, with her husband and progressing ? Today i losted hope on God justice and just ask to die but God refuse to kill me, he want to have joy looking to me while im sick, disonored, dead inside, alone, poor, thinking about suicide all the time, years with insomnia, tormentad by satan that ask me every second if all that effort was worth.

    I asked on a christian forum before but some christians like censorship.

    What people think about it ?

    • So many time and no answer to you here!
      Hope you are better.
      Take care and always remember that all church womans are bitches.

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