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Dear Chump Lady, Why did he come back if only to hurt me?

sociopath_memeDear Chump Lady,

I found your blog a few weeks ago, after finding out I had been cheated on for the upteenth time in six years. I ended things with him in 2009 after seeing he wouldn’t change and did not see him or have contact with him again until last year. He had emailed me over the years, always remaining friendly just to say hello, but I did not give much thought to these emails. When he contacted me last year, he said he was ready to commit and wanted us to have something true.

I took a risk, but asked that we either remain friends or take things slowly instead of him giving me a false commitment. He claimed he knew this is what he wanted. I also asked that he not cheat, and instead end things if he starts something with someone else. He agreed to this, and we had what seemed like a happy (relatively, when looking back on it) relationship

Things started to change in the past month, with him becoming more difficult to get in touch with and spending less time with me. Given that I had been through this with him, I knew something was going on and was able to take note of the girl commenting on his social media. He denied anything was going on, but my hunch told me otherwise. I found proof with her postings. I am not sure if she knew about me, but she posted enough for me to have details of their “love”.

I sent him screen shots of what I found so that he could not argue it, blocked his number, and email and have not had contact with him. I don’t wish to. He has made enough of my life a lie and truly disrespected me.

But I am struggling piecing a few things together and was hoping for your honest and logical input. He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people. I never knew how to understand this. He acted guilty about it, but given his behavior, I don’t know if that was honest. Why would he even tell me these things? Wouldn’t he have preferred to keep the image he paints for the world?

The worst part is that I was pregnant when I found out about his cheating. He knew about it, and wanted us to have the child at first, even adding that his mother, who was always fond of me, would be ecstatic. Within 20 minutes, he was already unsure and thought this was not a good time. This left me with the tough decision of whether to have an abortion or bring the child into the world on my own. I am in a place where I could have supported it well. I have a great job and helpful family. My therapist made the key arguments that I would have to be tied to my ex for life with this child and, most importantly, he would come in and out of the child’s life as he had done with mine. That, along with not knowing whether he does carry a genetic personality disorder given his childhood, made me decide that the most caring decision was not to do this to the child. I went through with the abortion yesterday, and it felt like the most traumatic thing in my life. Everything from being there without the partner to seeing the sonogram and having to make that decision purely based on my ex’s actions angered and embarrassed me. I am mad that I had to face the emotional and physical pain even though I would not have opted for that decision, and he was off serenading his newest girl.

I guess I want understanding on who this awful person is? Who would make me go through what I did yesterday, and alone? Why even reenter my life as a transformed person just to destroy it? I have been putting a lot of the blame on myself and would just like to understand this sensibly. Any input you can give would be appreciated.

Feeling Low

Dear Feeling Low,

Some people suck. And some people are over achievers at sucking. Those people are sociopaths. They’re predators. They don’t have brokenness or maturity issues, or whatever the FOO flavor of the month is — they’re sick in the head. They’re wired wrong. They’re sharks in people clothing.

It sounds like you tangled with a sociopath. And while you don’t say that, given that you seem to have a competent therapist and are aware that there is some evidence that genetics plays a part in mental illness — I’m guessing you know this. But perhaps you’d like some validation that your ex was truly bat shit psychopathic?

Anyone who tells you they “love” deceiving people is someone you need to run the hell away from. I don’t know when exactly this disclosure was made, during the first six years you dated him, or after you took him back, but I see why you’re beating yourself up and feeling like shit. He TOLD you who he was — and you didn’t believe him.

Join the club. You’re in good company. And THAT issue, FL, is the one thing you have control over. Who he is, why he did the things he did? That can only ever be conjecture. That’s untangling the skein of fuckupedness. You don’t control any of that. If it makes you feel better to read the Hare list and “The Sociopath Next Door,” do it. But I think you’ll heal a lot faster if you put the focus back on yourself. What does an acceptable relationship look like to me? Why did I let this guy batter ram my boundaries? Why did I take back a person who was a proven liar and cheat?

Please don’t think I’m kicking you while you’re down. You say you’ve blamed yourself. I don’t want you to feel icky and blame yourself. NO ONE deserves abuse. What this man did was obscene. But you, my friend, need to shore up your self esteem and fix that picker. Before you forgive yourself for being chumped by a con (and do forgive yourself), first take a hard, unvarnished look at your chumpiness and work on that.

Sociopaths will con anyone. It’s just their standing operating procedure. Con, lie, charm, abuse. Get angry at your hurt and upset. Step over your crumpled, sobbing body and fix themselves a Hot Pocket. It’s what they do. It’s nothing personal. If not you, it would be some other unfortunate soul.

But some people make it easy for sociopaths, and some people eventually sniff the crazy out and run away early. Ask yourself why YOU were the weak antelope in the herd.

I’m sure part of it is you are a kind, conscientious, giving person. You’re good kibbles. Sociopaths need a host to feed off of and good people are good hosts. There’s lots of value to suck dry.

But people with better boundaries go “Oh NO you don’t!” and don’t tolerate the shit. They only give their good to people who prove themselves over time and demonstrate good character.

See that word in bold? DEMONSTRATE. He had demonstrated “umpteen” times his poor character, but you were still prepared to take him at his word.

I took a risk, but asked that we either remain friends or take things slowly instead of him giving me a false commitment. He claimed he knew this is what he wanted. I also asked that he not cheat, and instead end things if he starts something with someone else.

In other words, you asked him to tell you before he lied or cheated again.

Good people do not need to be prompted to do good things. You should NEVER have to ASK for common decency.

Okay, I’ll be your friend, but you have to promise not to murder kittens. If you feel the urge to murder kittens, you need to tell me first, okay?

See how absurd that is? So is asking someone not to cheat on you, or tell them if they’re going to cheat, to end things first. If you’re going to get a burlap sack to put kittens in, before you throw them in the river, I want you to stop being my friend, OKAY? 

This kind of bargaining for decency is catnip (forgive the word choice after the murdering kitten segue) to disordered people. You’ve essentially put a sign on your forehead that says “Roll me. I’m a chump.”

Oh yeah SURE, says the sociopath, gleefully rubbing his hands together. You can trust ME.

I am so sorry this person was not the person you hoped he would be. And I’m especially sorry that you had to learn that lesson so brutally and unjustly and that you had to terminate a pregnancy over it. That was a very painful decision you had to make, and I think your therapist was right. To have had that child would mean that scary creep — who admits to sexually fondling his sister! — would be a man you had to hand your baby over to. To not hand your child over to him would mean years of harassment and legal expense and heartbreak.

On a personal note, when my marriage to my cheater went to hell, I was 40. I so badly wanted another child and at the time was trying to get pregnant. The first thing I said to the OW (when she called to inform me of her existence) was “I hope to God I’m not pregnant!” And I wasn’t. And I gave the last good years of my fertility to that asshole and I’ll never have another child.

Cheaters steal so much from us, FL. Infidelity is so traumatic. That’s why I keep this blog going, to change the conversation, so people will stop minimizing this shit.

But I am so grateful to God that I never had a child with my cheater. And I didn’t know it then, but my life reconstituted itself in a beautiful way. I’m remarried. I have two step-sons. I have a blended family. My son has the most wonderful step dad ever. Life DOES reconstitute itself. You WILL be blessed. You will heal.

This wing nut was one bad chapter in your life. He is NOT the only story. Don’t make him the central character. Who gives a fuck what motivates him or why he does what he does! Go out there and write new chapters with what you learned from this. Go be mighty and resilient. And go with the loving ((((HUGS))) of Chump Nation.


A NOTE TO READERS: If ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE gives this woman shit for having an abortion, you’re off my site. She has suffered enough. I’m pro-choice and proud to say it. NO ONE ever wants to be in the position FL was put in, and clearly she wasn’t having an abortion for the joy of it. You can be pro-life or pro-choice. I will keep any respectful comments up. But if there is any shaming — you’re outta here. I hesitated to run this letter because I didn’t want to open the abortion debate on my site. I hope we will all come together in compassion for FL. Thank you. 

Ask Chump Lady

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  • Low, I’m sorry for what you went through, and I totally understand your question. Those of us who are not sociopaths just cannot understand the minds of those who are, because in many ways, they are alien. They do not think like normal people, and scariest of all, they do not WANT to think like normal people, because they are proud of their ability to fool and con others. Your ex even TOLD you that he liked getting away with lies and that he thought about hurting people. Whew, talk about the sociopath red flags!

    You will never untangle the skein of your ex’s fucked-upd-ness. Just be glad you are away, and continue to work on your own issues that led you to accept this horrible, horrible man back into your life. That’s all that really matters.

    Listen to CL. You will eventually heal and go on to a better life. Being with a sociopath is pretty much the worst life can be, so it’s all uphill now.

    If you want a look into the mind of a liar, check out this video by the Henry Collins Band, “Liar.” It might not be your musical cup of tea, but wow, he nails it.

    • Oh, my! On D Day I blasted this Nonstop in my car as I did errands and sobbed!

      • GIO,
        So glad you posted that video. I watched it a few times after I left my cheating liar as that was the first song that came to my mind! I love Henry, he is so intelligent. Used to love watching his show on cable. Makes seeing the truth so much better when he is telling it!

    • OMG OMG OMG! I LOVED that SONG!!!! THANK YOU! I watched that video over and over again. Had to laugh at what a chump I had been….describes my relationship PERFECTLY!
      THANKS, Gladitsover!

    • THANK YOU for sharing that Rollins song. I had completely forgotten about it! His lyrics (AND the situation described above by “Feeling Low”) describe the behavior of a narcissist. Check this out:

      Here’s more:
      “At first you are put on a pedestal- the queen of his world, a goddess- no one could be more perfect- he can’t get enough of you. A short time passes and then all of a sudden you are being criticized, called worthless and the cause of all his trouble- and he dumps you. Only to return sometime later to beguile and charm you and win you back, telling you that you are perfect, etc. The cycle continues. Repeated over and over, for as long as you are willing to take it. The narcissistic cycle consists of the narcissist “over-valuing” his partner, unfailingly followed by a period of “de-valuing” his partner. One day you are the greatest person on earth to them, but when you don’t do or say something they wanted you to, or you ask something of them that they don’t want to do- they demean you and ignore you. You are no longer important to them.”


  • Know and understand your pain, well, FL. Youve done the best you could with a bad situation. Hope you will forgive yourself, fix your picker before plunging back into the dating pool, and have a good life from now on without that sociopath in it. God bless and stay strong.

  • He didn’t come back “just to hurt you”. He came back because you were there. His emailing from time to time, was his way of keeping tabs on you. He knew he’d hit you up again for some kibbles. That he could get back with someone who left him before made the kibbles extra special. Believe me when I tell you, as CL did, don’t take this personally. That shit will keep you stuck, and it didn’t have anything to do with you. Never did. You were the first poor schmuck he ran into one day when he was looking for somebody to con. People are nothing more than objects to be exploited for their own gain. That they lack empathy is not a reflection on you. It’s on them.

    This is going to be a rough ride, but you will make it through.

  • I think the simplest explanation of who this guy is is that he is completely selfish. He wanted you and he said what he needed to to get you back. He doesn’t care if he hurts you or if you are miserable.

    It’s possible that he feels guilty, but since it doesn’t change his behavior, you need to stay away from him.

    • From what she wrote, from what he told her, I doubt he is capable of guilt.

      Feigning guilt (love, affection, commitment, caring) is a whole different ball of wax that he’s apparently very good at. That is what sociopaths do.

      FL, there is no understanding that will ever make sense to your mind or heart, and there never will be. The explanation begins and ends with “he is a sick, sick man.”

      I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through, for a choice you had to make that you didn’t want to ever have to make. Sending you the biggest hug.

      Promise us all that you’ll never even consider speaking to him again. Not tomorrow, not next year, not ever. He does not deserve a woman as forgiving as you are.

  • CL, you amaze me. You keep amazing me day after day.

    When I got to the part in the article that she had terminated her pregnancy I found myself making judgements about her — funny how even when I have had to make that decision myself long ago that I could possibly be judgmental, but I was.

    Then when I read what you wrote at the bottom I just felt such respect for you and how brave you are. My judgement went away and I felt compassion for this woman as I should have from the beginning.

    To Feeling Low, you’re not alone. I’d imagine almost all of us were somewhat transformed and on our way to a better life when we allowed our cheater to re-enter our lives, at least I was. It’s as though we need to be absolutely positively sure that they suck even though we know they do. We have to be certain beyond all doubt.

    Then, when they show us that they suck, we’re not really surprised, and most of the disappointment goes towards ourselves for believing them yet again.

    The important part is that you’re awake now and have a clean slate. The future is all yours and you finally know that it will, under no circumstances, include him. Go easy on yourself for a few weeks, remember that pregnancy hormones are still pulsing through your body and will no doubt wreak havoc on your mood. Just keep breathing.

    Spend the next year getting support and therapy so that you can make sure that nothing like this will happen to you again — get to know yourself. You’ll be amazed at what a difference one short year can make.

    And of course, keep coming to CL, to help you realize that, sadly, your situation is not unique.

  • Dearest Feeling Low,
    Firstly I will offer you my greatest heartfelt empathy. I am in tears after reading your letter.
    I too had an abortion back in the late 1980s. I was living in London at the time and I was very young and very involved with this man who I thought I loved but I can say now in hindsight that he was a complete and utter bastard. My decision for having the termination was pretty much the same as yours, I knew I would be forever tangled up with this awful head wrecking man. Also I discovered that he had another woman pregnant at the same time. I have since discovered that he has four children with three different women, none of whom he committed to. Point is – this sort of person will NEVER change.

    I will also tell you that the experience floored me and that I hid it from my family at the time. I felt I had nowhere to turn. I gave up work because I could not face the world – I retreated into myself, I blamed myself. It took some years for me to recover but only because I hid it. You writing here is a big step to accepting and dealing with what has happened to you.

    Please, please be gentle and kind with yourself – you have suffered a huge loss and you are not to blame. Your decision was right for you, devastating as it was. You will grieve and you will be angry and you will come through this and you can heal. You do not deserve this it happened because you dared to trust only to be trampled all over again.

    I am sending you huge warm hugs. Listen to Chump Lady – her advice is brilliant and empowering.

    • Dear feeling low,
      My heart goes out to you for having to make such a heart wrenching decision. You did the right thing in this horrific situation so please hold onto that. If you had to raise a child and allow that sociopathic monster into it’s life, that would have been volunteering for a lifetime of abuse for both you and your son or daughter.
      Your post reminded me of the experience I had, finding out I was pregnant weeks afer my wedding when I was 21. I had a copper 7 IUD at the time, and carrying a baby to term with it at that time was not recommended. I remember going to planned parenthood alone, because my new husband wouldnt pay for my abortion, (we had both quit our jobs to take an extended honeymoon- guess he didn’t want to spend honeymoon $ on something so frivolous. Hmmm. He wouldn’t let me buy any of our wedding photos either, all I have is the proofs! ) He had me pretend I was single so Medical would pay for it. Why didn’t I stand up to him? This is so painful to remember that I had blocked those details out. How shameful. Why am I surprised 36 years later to realize that I married a sociopathic serial cheater and con man, and I’m now fighing for everything I have worked for my entire life.
      Learn all you can about co-depencency. This is why we allow people to treat us this way, because we are looking for validation from outside ourselves. It is a long road to recovery from co-dependancy. Its a process of rewiring our brains. But you made a very tough, yet self protective choice. You can now rebuild your self esteem and life in a healthier way.
      Thank you CL for taking a strong stand about this issue. You Rock!

      God bless.

  • I am so sorry you went through this horrible situation on your own. Please, please talk to your therapist about the potential for postpartum depression. I terminated a pregnancy 19 years ago with my Ex at 21 weeks (due to the baby having severe/incompatible with life birth defects) and his lack of support and caring, coupled with the hormonal imbalances that occur naturally during birth (which happen whether the birth was natural or induced/terminated) led to me having some pretty major depression that I did not get treated afterwards (due to my Ex wanting me to just “get on with life and quit moping” – i.e. get back to worshiping me and doing my bidding). I wish like everything now that I had gotten therapy, taken meds if needed, and done what I needed to do to heal my body and heart after the experience. Instead, I was back at work 3 days later and basically had to act as though it never happened from that point forward. Don’t do this to yourself. Be gentle with your emotions, your body and your heart. Don’t make any major life decisions right now either. Just REST (take medical leave from work if you can) and focus on healing body and soul!!

  • Completely agree with your final comment CL. We females unfortunately are left with some terrible decisions to make in our lives, like dear Feeling Low has had to make. I cannot begin to imagine having to make such a choice. I do hope that Feeling Low has support around her and that in time she will heal and get on with her life and be happy.

    Feeling Low, please keep coming back to Chump Lady. This is a community of men and women who have been through the fire and have come out the other side and each of our stories are very different but with an underlining theme of betrayal and devastation. It is an awful road to walk but walk it we do with our heads held high. I do pray that your life is now better without that scum bag around. Take care young lady and we are all behind you and with you. 🙂

  • Feeling Low,

    I don’t know you and we’ll probably never meet. Despite the anonymity of this, please know that I am sending you love, support and good thoughts for your future.

    • Ditto that. I have experienced similar. Know that you are not alone and hopefully you can take support from this group.

  • FL: I think your instincts were correct that you needed to sever all ties with this disordered person. It was the healthiest thing for you and for any children you might have someday. I am sorry that you had to make such a difficult decision. But you were strong and doing so has protected you and any future children from a life of abuse from your ex. Great job keeping yourself healthy and safe, and please take time to heal.

  • “He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people.”

    See, this bothers me because all three of these admissions should have been enough for you to sit up and say, “What the fuck am I don’t with this . . . thing.” The problem isn’t just that he’s a sociopath, the problem is you accepted this PROVEN sociopath back into your life.

    Stick with the therapist and figure out why you did this. You need to fix why you thought this was the best you could do, because I can assure you, you can do better than than him.

    And this, “Why even reenter my life as a transformed person just to destroy it?” Well, he was never a transformed person. I know you wanted to believe he was, but he will never be anything other than what he’s SHOWN you he is. Crazy people like this, they don’t change. Not ever.

    Hugs to you.

    • You bring up a good point, and I forgot to address it in my reply. WHY does he tell you these things? Not because you’re special and he thinks he can trust you with his dark secrets — but because he is GROOMING you. He’s pushing the envelop to see what you do. If you stay. If you spackle.

      • Exactly! I was going to add that in my comments and I forgot. It is a TEST. How will you react? I think it’s fun for them, really sick. I don’t even know if some of the things my ex told me were true, or just an experiment. Doesn’t matter, either way it’s awful.

      • I disagree with the premise that he told her who he was and the problem is she stayed. I’m not sure you had someone this manipulative in your life if you say this. I assume that Feeling Low didn’t explain the context of his admissions of troubling issues due to space constraints. She said too: “He acted guilty about it” and “Why would he even tell me these things? Wouldn’t he have preferred to keep the image he paints for the world?”

        I’ll tell you why he told you those things, and make no mistake! He told you the least of it, things you would accept. Abusive people select victims and they show a different face to you, but they do it gradually and carefully so as to break down your boundaries. Break them down, one inch at a time, if it goes to fast you notice, you might leave, you might see those flags for what they are. Sounds to me like this bastard is the Martyr Man. Once he knows you love him, The Martyr Man manipulation evokes empathy and sympathy, a desire to help this person be the wonderful person you think he really is. After all he’s treated you so well, until he doesn’t any more.

        Perhaps this resonates; He only confesses a “bad” thing when you have told him something vulnerable about you. So he must reciprocate but he doesn’t know how to be vulnerable. So, he told you he’d done bad things/felt bad things and then explained how they frightened him, how horrible he felt for these things. How much it hurt him, how sorry he was. Always things he had done in the past…they are always far in the past. How he learned better, how he would never do such things again. How there were “reasons”, some bad thing done to him that caused him to act badly…someone was to blame for what he’d done, subtle but there, sometimes not so subtle but believable (Dad abused him perhaps). Then he cried and begged you not to leave him, that he was a better person now. That he would never harm you. This segues into the “You’re so Special” part of the manipulation. How he is different with you. He would not lie to you, never have dark thoughts about you. You see, you are so special, he was broken but you make him whole. Then he begins to do bad things to you, little by little. When you can’t deal with them, when you tell him you will not accept it? There he is again, the broken Martyr Man who loves you and never meant to hurt you, he could never hurt you and without you he is forever lost and broken. He loves you and you are so so special. Rinse, Repeat.

        • posted before done, sheesh. Once you’ve experienced this, or been educated about the bullshit that our culture pushes on us, then yes – those admissions with the tearful regrets are recognizable red flags.

          • Yes, I have had someone this manipulative in my life. I’m the last one to blame chumps for the bullshit inflicted on them, and as a woman, I “get it”. Nobody has to “educate” me on the bullshit society inflicts on my gender.

            But IMO, when you’ve already experienced bad behavior from someone in the past and then allow them back into your life, that is a problem. The focus needs to be on you, and to figure out what you thought you were lacking that would allow them back in. This was a person who was fired in 2009 and allowed back. That needs to be fixed; the part where we don’t protect ourselves from obvious danger.

            • Yeah, RK, a year ago I left my husband and was feeling strong. It destroyed him and he pursued me relentlessly. He literally got on his knees and begged me and so I went back to him. A mere few months later he was done with me and had no response when I was on my knees to him. He did do me a favor in the end. Our highly dysfunctional relationship is finally over.

              • He certainly did do you a favor. And this is what I’m trying to explain: Along with him being a problem, GOING BACK was also a problem. He can be a fuck-stick, asshole, dirt-bag all day long, but if he’s not in your life, he can do you no harm. And that’s all I’m saying.

                Sure they are manipulative and we chumps want to believe them, but at some point, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, you’re having foie gras for dinner because this fucker is exactly the same guy who broke your heart before. I’m not trying to be unsympathetic or harsh. I’m trying to be empowering; because when we realize we do have the power to leave and to STAY GONE, our lives improve. And our lives ALWAYS improve without a cheater in it. Always.

          • Wow DDW, that’s the Ex bastard to a T. I got busy with my own life – started a business – started spending on me and spending less time on building him up…honestly I was tired of doing it because nothing ever changed so I worked on ME and thought I could provide for our future that way. So then he hurt me in the worst ways possible to try and rehook me. Well fuck him! Amazing what time can do to let you see clearly…

        • “I disagree with the premise that he told her who he was and the problem is she stayed. I’m not sure you had someone this manipulative in your life if you say this.”

          Dat, I’m with you on this one. It is so subtle the way these creeps work. They reel you in little by little – it’s not always obvious and that’s where the mindfuckery comes into play. Before you know it you’re in up to your neck and caught in a sticky web. If we could all know what they were up to none of us would be here.

          • I agree with the slow creep of how they work on your boundaries.

            When I think back on some of the small things exH said to me, I want to slap myself for dismissing them. But that is how they work. They drop these little reveals, little turds of their real self in very small doses so you won’t be alarmed. If exH had told me all of his little turds at once I would have instantly pegged him as a nut and ran. But no, it took years of increasingly fucked up words and behaviors for me to get the full picture…or rather for me to see what he really was instead of what I wanted him to be.

            • I agree, ThatGirl, I had actually convinced myself that my monster of a cheater was a Tony Soprano type character, and Tony’s wife wouldn’t expect him to change. I was at the point of accepting that my life would now be with this man who is morally bankrupt. Thank goodness he dumped me in the end! I was going to be loyal to him.

              • ML, you wrote “I was at the point of accepting that my life would now be with this man who is morally bankrupt. Thank goodness he dumped me in the end! I was going to be loyal to him”. >>>> This really jumped out at me. I was with him for 25 years. I felt the same. In the beginning I was or thought I was destroyed. It turns out his “dumping me” has been a lifesaver. I am feeling like my life has colour back in because he really sucked the life out of it.

        • Yes, it can be subtle and not so subtle the ways these creeps work. And of course hindsight is 20/20 — that’s why we need to evangelize on the subject of red flags and boundaries.

          I was a chump. But now, if ANYONE said to me “I love to deceive people” I would believe it and I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. I wouldn’t spackle, or make light of it. I would heed the warning. Old me? Probably not.

          We must learn from this shit. It’s the only thing we control — what we learn going forward. You have to forgive yourself for being played, and there are never guarantees in life that you won’t get snowed again, but we can be much, much more careful with our hearts and mindful of the red flags.

          I was manipulated by my ex, of course. He’s conned smarter women than me. (One ex graduated first in her law school.) But he also groomed me, tested my empathy for his poor sausage stories, and he said many, many troubling things. I should’ve run. Lessons learned.

          • Yep. This is what I mean. After the shit I’ve been through, I’m very keen on recognizing the signs and using what I’ve learned in the past to whatever happens in the future. Looks like I get to try this shit out because I just met a guy this Friday who seems like me. 🙂

            I told him I wasn’t really interested in dating yet, but I still friend-ed him on Facebook later anyway. He’s been emailing with just innocent conversation, and at one point gave me his number. Then he emailed again and said that he remembered what I said about me not really into dating at the moment, but he just wants to get to know me. He said “I hope I didn’t seem too pushy.”

            I like this! To me, it shows he was actually paying attention to what I said. And hooray he’s not sending me dick pics and asking to come over! No red flags. At least not yet anyway . . . lol.

            • RK, I always enjoy reading your comments. You come across as a really together and feisty woman and I admire that enormously.

              Good luck with the fellow on Facebook. He might turn out to be a really genuine chap. I hope so.

              • Thanks Maree! I am feisty, but I wouldn’t say I’m really together. 😀

                We’ll see on this guy. He’s divorced too and yes his X is a cheater. We had a nice conversation about getting back out into the world after being kicked in the teeth. So far I like him. No sparkles, very respectful, seems quite sweet, and he’s a tall drink ‘a water too. 🙂 I’d rather just get to know him slowly I think. Serious dating will happen but right now, 4 months post-divorce, I just want to learn how to be happy single.

            • Is cool, Rk! I get what you mean, just sayin, the LW believed he had changed and had to learn he hadn’t very painfully. Hopefully it will be a lesson learned. If it didn’t take us a while to get it there wouldn’t be so many chumps who got chumped again.

              • This is why I think all chumps need to really INTERNALIZE, these fuckers don’t change. Not ever. If they were capable of ripping your heart out once, they will do it again because they know they can. That’s just how their minds work.

                The number one rule for all chumps is, protect thyself. I love you, you fucked me over, you don’t get another shot to do it again. There’s another 9 billion people on the planet that deserve a chance for a spot in your life, not the one that has PROVEN that he values poo.

                Go GET EM CHUMPLINGS! WOO!

              • I appreciate that. We’ll see about the guy . . . right now, happy single time. 🙂

              • Good Luck RK! I love hearing about Chumps finding a decent girl/guy after this shit!

      • Duh! I just understood why Jackass told me about his involvement with a ring of people stealing and chopping cars. I was shocked. Then I said, “Well, he just told me that he knows it was wrong and hasn’t done it again…” He was pushing the envelop to see what I would do. And I stayed and spackled.

        • Why does it matter whether it’s conscious, subconscious or unconscious. You need to realise when it’s happening. and really, it happens often when you think about it. I was dating a guy once who was making 6 figures and said that he saw a future with me and was happy to move not only city but in this case country.

          His efforts to find a job in my city were pathetic and settled on a job that cut his earning power in half (after 2 months of looking and as he tells after 25 resumes were sent out, I should add. and oh yeah, that was the first company that he interviewed with).

          And then he had this bright idea that if he moved in with me, I would gain so many benefits off of him — like getting rich off of collecting rent from him.

          since he was talking marriage, why would I want to make money off my future husband?

          Now years later, (don’t worry , he never moved in with me) I think about how often he would tell me stories about how awful his job was; how much he couldn’t get along with his coworkers — never mind that in the middle of this he told me he got a team player of the month award — during the month in which he took 2 weeks vacation. of course, so that I would be happy about any job he took after that, even one that might require me to supplement his income…….. like giving him accommodations at below market rates……

          I say now, if you ever find someone trying to get you to do something, particularly something that you are hesitating on, start listening to the stories that they tell after that. You may start notice how purposeful those little vignettes are.

        • I think it matters only in the sense that some of us like to have an understanding of the way things work. And also, if you’ve been hit by a bus you at least know what a bus is. Getting hit by a sociopath or narc is very like being taken by something that t is unidentifiable even though it comes in a human body. Of course where the trouble lies is when we stay stuck trying to figure this stuff out or we use these explanations to excuse someone’s behavior. I am almost past it but I too still wonder about my ex’s motivations. But I’ve been curious about human behavior for a long time. (If you can call these guys human).

          I think the answer is both yes and no. I think it’s part of the nature of the animal and I think in the beginning it’s more of an in the moment type of thing. Although I’m not an expert in sociopaths but I can at least share what I’ve seen my narc do to me and other women.

          I can tell you exactly when my narc started grooming me. After we’d been together for a while he wanted to try something sexually that’s not usually my cup of tea so to speak. I’m pretty open minded and I think when you’re in a normal relationship you do experiment a bit with each other or try something that the other partner is interested in because you care about them. The problem is that the longer we were together the more regular and normal that became. You sort of wake up one day and go, “hey, I don’t really like this, I would never let another man expect this out of me regularly but when I mention it, my significant other never really overtly pushes the issue but sort of subtlety indicates that maybe I’m disappointing or repressing him. Then he continues to push in all of these other areas. Always only barely pushing over the boundary of what you think is appropriate. They’re not overt with killing that hard boundary in the beginning. And then there’s the part where he makes you feel special. After I left him my ex was answering craigslist ads, as he had been prior to our marriage. I saw one of the the ads. His response to it was “I don’t usually do this, but there’s something about your eyes.” Hers was probably like the 40th ad he’d answered and he said things like that to all of the ladies. But I’m sure it made her feel special because supposedly her eyes had enough of that “something” for him to do something he never had before. This was a much younger woman too. I think he got a rude awakening when he realized 20 somethings aren’t as interested in guys with ex wives and their kids half the time. After he got rejected a few times he went back to approaching women in their thirties and forties for his fake relationships but kept after the young ones for hookups. For me the grooming started right in the beginning but I don’t think he was self aware and consciously deciding to use me until at least a year in. I’m sure there’s more disordered variations that do. But so I think the grooming part probably isn’t conscious but the using part is.

          Btw, fifty shades of gray is a prime example of someone grooming an individual in the guise of romance. I think it’s fair to say that some of these disordered freaks are particularly attracted to those with strong convictions and a goodness or innocence around them.

          • I am almost past it but I too still wonder about my ex’s motivations.

            I agree. After thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion that he probably wanted a European tour and thought using my place as a pied a terre would make things easier for him. “oh baby, we didn’t need a rental agreement between us…….. don’t you trust me…….”

            this guy also came from a large employer. I never checked but it’s possible that his employer could have had a sabbatical program making it easy for him to take a year and go right back to them…… same salary, job title and so on…. Otherwise, why on earth would his boss give teamplayer of the month award….. during a month when he was only half at work?

            It’s good to have high standards for the people that you “do business with,” that has a natural anti con person repellent.

    • “He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people.”

      My ex told me about consensual incest with his sisters when they were in their early teens. He spoke of this not with guilt or shame, but seemed to find it funny. He told me a couple times that he sometimes fantasized about stabbing his mother to death, and about stabbing me to death. He told me that he sometimes fantasized about turning our car directly into oncoming traffic on the freeway when we were all together in the car. He never boasted of getting away with lies as a kid, but I’m sure he felt that way. He once bragged to our son that he could cry at will, and the way he did it was by thinking of son killing himself.

      I look back on these things now and cannot believe I stayed with him for so long. But it’s surprisingly easy to overlook or spackle this kind of stuff. It’s not like my ex was openly treating me horribly every day — he was often very kind, supportive and nice to me, when it suited him.

      I totally understand Low staying with her ex despite these admissions, but also agree that a person who DOES stay with someone so clearly announcing their disorder shows that the person has some fairly severe self esteem or FOO issues that require treatment.

  • Dear Feeling Low,
    You have my respect for being courageous enough to make a hugely difficult and heartwrenching decision. Really it was an unselfish decision because you have saved another human from undeserved suffering…potentially of many kinds.

    You now have your freedom to go and find a decent partner if you wish, but armed with some more resolve to know and set firm boundaries. When a man tells you who he is, believe him. Don’t spackle even little things.

    I have in recent times walked away from prospective partners because of red flags: One with a long ago criminal conviction when he said what happened “wasnt his fault”; Another who thought nothing of stealing from shops; another who couldnt stop talking about an ex girlfriend. Just believe them when they show you they are not quality people. Easier said than done…but then choosing your family is a volume undertaking…process them efficiently.

    • I wish Tracy would do a post on what a “quality person” is because from posts on this blog and others, it’s astonishing that so many people, especially women, don’t know what that is. And I think this is a really big deal! I’ll read something like “he told me he liked hurting people or was involved in a porn ring or had sex with his sister or stole money from his mother for 20 years or cheated on every single one of his past relationships…” and so on, and somehow this guy STILL looks attractive and a good bet as a partner? How is it possible that such shocking admissions are no longer shocking enough to set off huge alarm bells in our heads?

      I don’t mean to be harsh, in fact I blame our current state of cultural fuzzy thinking where “everybody is ok just as they are” and nothing is universally right or wrong, it’s just “what’s right for me.” We all suffer from that kind of confusing relativism. I have a friend who allows other people to take appalling advantage of her. They constantly show her they aren’t reliable, trustworthy or respectful and when I ask her why she doesn’t stand up for herself and kick their asses to the curb, she just shrugs and says “I don’t think what they’re doing is wrong, they’re just in their own worlds and perceiving their own reality.” HUH? I don’t even know how to untangle that skein.

      So we need a refresher course not only in red flags but in understanding fundamentally what’s a good, decent person. This would seem to be a no-brainer, but apparently it isn’t!

  • They will kick you when you’re down, every time. That’s one of the huge red flags that you’re dealing with someone with some serious problems. Those were the times when I had the most doubt. Now from reading other peoples stories (yours included) I see that it’s not that unusual for sociopaths to act out in terrible ways during the times we think we need them most. Again, as CL has said, it’s not something most of us could ever understand or make sense of.
    I know you weren’t really asking for reassurance about your decision, but I will add that I think you showed great maturity and incredible compassion with the choice you made. Those of us who have children with these kinds of people in our heart of hearts wish we could have learned what we know now before having children. Nothing is more horrible than watching the pain and confusion doled out by the disordered parent on your child. It’s the most painful thing I have ever had to face, and I try to stay positive about their future, but the truth is I don’t have total control over that. Anyway, take good care of yourself and leave this guy eating your dust.

    • My wife is not nearly as extreme as the men FL, DDW and GIO describe, but this line got me: “They will kick you when you’re down, every time.” Goddamn, that rings a bell.

        • Yep, me too. And at the time, I just passed it off ( low self esteem). I was 6 mos pregnant, laying in bed with an infected ear. Ugh. He wouldn’t even sit with me, or bring me tea. He was downstairs, partying with some friends.
          He showed me how he didn’t care, and I made excuses in my head for him. I feel such pain for that young person that I was, married to a great big Narc!
          And, Feeling Low, I also terminated a pregnancy, many years ago. I’m sending you love, you will get past this. We all learn our life lessons, and carry on.

  • I’m so sorry for what you are going through. Deciding to terminate a pregnancy is a difficult choice. Escaping a sociopath is like running out of the rabbit hole.

    The blame is squarely on your ex. He is a sociopath. This is evident by his deviant behavior and lack of empathy. To put it squarely, your ex has no feelings. He is absolutely incapable. He does, however, have a disturbing psychological disorder and there is a debate if these individuals can even be treated.

    I am not a mental health professional, so I am not an expert, but below are some sources (only when you are ready):

    Donna Anderson has a great blog about sociopaths:

    Martha Stout has an informative book:

    I hesitate to add this one because it creeps the hell out of me (in a “hairs on the back of my neck stand up” kind of way), but ME Thomas is a sociopath who penned a book and has a blog. I have a visceral reaction to her writing but it was insightful when understanding my ex-husband.

    Please have no contact with this man. Do not feed the monster– He feeds off of information, verbal and nonverbal.

    But above all else, take care and be gentle with yourself.

    • Whoa… That was enlightening. It’s like trying to explain to a blind person what it would be like to see, or why you would even want to. They’re missing a chip and then try to convince themselves that that makes them special and not disordered. I think I understand the condescension now-big time coping mechanism. And they almost all try to compensate for lack of empathy with intelligence whether they’re actually highly intelligent or not. ‘Cause what other strength do they have to lead with, really? I hope I can learn to sympathize, but they make it so hard!

      • Ha – my ex sociopath considered himself intellectually elite. I find intelligence extremely attractive – but I was just thinking about this very thing …. apart from being able to regularly beat me at scrabble (competence at conundrum solving?) and a nerdish retention of sporting trivia – I can’t honestly say he showed any above average intelligence in anything! – Certainly he didn’t have enough room in his mind to indulge in self-obsession AND an interest in current affairs, cultural interests, history, geography, science (and all the other Trivial Pursuit cheese wheels :-D) – yet still, he has successfully conned people into believing his portrayal of himself as a great intellect! He won a scholarship to Cambridge university (which he squandered and left after one term – I guess his grandiose delusionment wasn’t enough to kid himself he was capable of being there) but – by God – hasn’t he dined out on that crap for years ever since! Conned me anyway – very impressed and convinced was I, for a very long time!

        • Jayne, my ex is also very, very intelligent, and he knows it. Yet he has had no success whatsoever in his personal life. It’s a weird combination of being highly egotistical and (I suspect) very low self esteem, which he hides from all, including himself.

          Sadly, my ex was actually a pretty fascinating person and could be highly motivating to others. He just had a million excuses why nothing ever worked out for him.

      • It is like describing sight to a blind person. I don’t even think they are trying to “convince” themselves. As the author states in one section of her blog, which I think was about whether a sociopath can be good or not, that their belief systems are more balanced because they are not altered by emotion.

        I used to think my ex was brilliant. That all changed with the divorce. He wasn’t so bright after all. Clever and the ability to ace a multiple choice test equate to a particularly deep intellect.

    • That woman seriously creeps me out. She’s like Sam Vahkin. She enjoys the notoriety of being disordered. OTOH, they can accurately describe what it’s like to be them. (Shudder)

      • He was seriously creepy….but sure connected the dots for me. Guess I owe him.

      • There’s only one other time I can remember feeling so repulsed by someone. He was just out there with all of his superior pathology and didn’t even try to hide it. I was at a service that a friend had arranges for his domestic partner of 15 years who had just committed suicide. For some reason his father, a successful college professor, decided to come to the memorial. When he arrived, he didn’t hug his son or offer condolences. He just turned to him shortly after he got there and said, “Look at all of the pathetic people dining at the trough of their self-serving grief. I think they’re all enjoying it.” He had such a smug look on his face-I will never forget it. After that he left. My friend had a hugely messed up childhood, as you can imagine.

      • I stumbled across her book at Barnes and Noble (one of the rare occasions I was in a brick and mortar bookstore) and froze in the aisle. I could not put it down.

        I also could not bring myself to buy it. On the one hand, it was helpful and interesting to read. On the other hand, it was really disturbing. But hey, I’m an empath, what in the hell do I know?

  • FL,

    I too tangled with a sociopath who told me he’d ‘interfered’ with his sister, though they were both teens, so not exactly children, and he showed absolutely no guilt or remorse – not even pretend! Long story short, even when I tried to name that ‘interference’ as sexual abuse and very possibly having a long term affect on his sister’s mental well-being, he refused to even consider the possibility that what he had done was VERY, VERY WRONG.! And still I took him back after he devastated my life by cheating! I have thought long and hard about why I would continue being involved with someone who was so obviously a sick sociopath and I sincerely think it’s because WE ARE NOT SOCIOPATHS! I used to joke that it would be great if the villains in our lives would only have twirly moustaches and tie us to the tracks, then we’d know they were villains! While intellectually I knew there were evil people out there, if they didn’t have some sort of ‘Mark of Cain’ on their foreheads, I honestly think I believed everyone was a good soul who made mistakes and deserved redemption. I honestly believe, as chumps, it’s that good-hearted fundamental belief that gets us involved and chumped by evil people. Now I know the sharks masquerading as people don’t necessarily have twirly moustaches or marks of Cain on their foreheads. I’m sad to lose the big open-hearted innocent I once was, but I can’t unlearn that shit either. Forward will always be ‘believe what they do, not what they say’. It was a hard lesson but I’m not going to give myself grief for being a chump – it was a beautiful innocence I am proud I had.

    I am so sorry you have gone through so much, and I agree, you did the best thing. I am glad he wasn’t there with you at that awful, dreadful time – it’s probable he’d have used it against you and made great sport out of the emotional torture he could put you through.

    Hugs and kindest, kindest thoughts to you

    Jayne xxx

  • Dear Chump Lady – everyday that I read your blog, I come away with new information, a different perspective, a thread, or a thought that helps all of us understand how similar our situations are even though we are all different.

    I have so much respect for the site, for its creator and your continued good work to recognize abuse and find solace in spite of what we’ve experienced. And just when I think I couldn’t find a more valuable resource than Chump Lady, you up the admiration quotient for me even more with the admonishment to us all to accept each other and our journeys. You create a safe haven and teach acceptance with the most consistent message – accept no bullies, in any shape or form. You are brave and honest person.

    FL – peace and love to you

  • Feeling Low, first of all I wish I could give you a great big hug! You did the absolute right thing by not having the baby, please do not ever doubt that. Your counselor was right, for at least the next 18 years you would have had to deal with this soul sucker’s mind games and if your child did not have the disorder, then you would have had to run interference and do damage control because of the child’s father. These people (I use the word “people” loosely because they are fair from what I consider to be a person) have no conscience, no guilt, no remorse. They are pathological liars, if their lips are moving they are lying, about things they don’t even have to lie about.
    They have learned to imitate emotions from watching other people and their lives are orchestrated illusions, they morph into the perfect partner for their victim in order to hook them and then the mask drops and the abuse starts. Why? because if they can, in their mind the ability to cause pain proves their power and superiority over the rest of humanity. He would come back just because he was bored and needed to fk with someone’s head and heart and you were handy. They will lay on the tears and say anything to get you back and then loath you for being so stupid to believe their lies. They are pure evil and never change, why would they? they get what they want and God knows they don’t want to feel like we do because people like him use and abuse people like us. He assumes everyone thinks like he does and is out to get him, control him or manipulate him so he operates with a “get them before they get me” attitude.
    You are not alone, or stupid, most victims of a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath are intelligent, attractive, self sufficient women with high morals and values, but they are also, kind, forgiving, trusting, honest and compassionate and N’s abuse those traits to the max. One area where the victim fails is they don’t have clear boundaries that they will not compromise and give too many chances.
    I did something very similar to you, I had been no contact with my ex for 3 months when he called and was crying because he had been given 6 months to live. He came crying, apologizing for everything he ever did wrong, and begging for another chance because knowing he was dying he had an epiphany and he now knew I was all the woman he would ever need. I thought, who lies about dying?, who would he bother? I had not contacted him, moved on with my life, he was in a different province so I wasn’t handy; it must be love. I found out after I left him 2 years later, after losing everything, that he was living with two other women and had all three of us believing he was in love us. (He was trucking) BTW that was in 2008 and he is still very much alive and destroying a new woman. There is no way a normal person could foresee someone lying like that, not before meeting one of these sickos.
    It is really hard to get your head around the truth, but anything loving you saw was an act. stay no contact, not just don’t reply when he contacts you but block any avenue he has to get through to you. Change your number if you have to, block him on all social media, his email, text messages, do not read anything he sends you because he will try everything within his power to get you doubting yourself and to make you feel guilty. You can not give him any little crack to get to you. He will try to get to you through friends, tell the friends you don’t want to hear it and if they can’t abide by your wishes you will have to stop associating with them.
    Chump Lady can delete my message I don’t mean to tread on her toes or promote my website, we don’t really offer the same thing but if I am off base Chump Lady my apologies. But Feeling Low, I have a website where I go into depth about narcissists, why they do what they do and how to heal after being in a relationship with one and offer support. I was with a narcissist 10 years in total and now 3 1/2 yrs out and never been more at peace.
    All the best to you, you WILL survive this. You are not alone. Hugs

    • No worries, Carrie. The only way to get your blog out there is to whore it around. And the best way to that is comments and guess blogging. I don’t mind you plugging your blog at all. Well, so long as you aren’t selling Viagra, spell casters, or designer handbags…

      • Chump Lady, you know I always laugh at the spell casters who offer to help you get back your ex. NO!! shit, it took me forever to get rid of him, don’t you dare bring him back!! Wrong blog to be flogging that shit!!
        Thanks CL I prefer to not think of myself as a whore, LOL after all its been so long I’m a virgin again. just kidding…… kinda LOL

      • LovedaJackass, LOL yeah THAT Ladywithatruck!! I always like to hear someone likes my site. 🙂

    • I think I found from! Both are incredibly insightful, valuable sites needed for healing!

  • Feeling Low- tons (tons tons tons) of us on here were cheated on either pregnant or with newborns. [plus- although we often hash out Celebrity cheating on this site no one has mentioned Hank and Kendra. He cheated on her when she was pregnant WITH A MAN WITH BOOBS. That’s right, a pre-op trans woman still flying the winky flag. He cheated on her with an alternative gender.] It is really normal. Hugely tragic and not taken seriously at all by the RIC, who go on and on about how normal it is, statistically. Well, maybe it is, it’s still heartrending.

    My X also confided to me that he dreamed of killing people many times, and that he fantasized about it and seriously considered taking up the life of a hit-man, because he knew he was without any kind of remorse. Yes. You are not alone. In the fantasy of him living the life of a hit-man, my son and I were going to live in a villa in South America and he would visit us. Between murders. Yup. Can’t make this stuff up.

    • I fail to understand why the AP being trans has any bearing on how fucked up a cheater is, there is nothing wrong with a person changing their body to align with their gender identification. I personally find your description of the woman pretty offensive.

      • Glad I’m not the only one, DDW. The problem with the cheater is that he’s a cheater. The problem with the trans AP is that she’s an AP.

      • Oh Brother. People on here jump all over each other all the time. Some of you are just as bad as the people you complain about.

        You know what? Sometimes people accuse Chump Lady of inciting hatred and riling people up. I do not think that is true. But I do think there are a lot of people on here who jump on each other for no good reason. Seriously- are you telling me you wouldn’t be absolutely shocked to find out that your X cheated with their own gender when you thought they were hetero? So, not only that he’s cheating, apparently he’s bi? I think any reasonable person would consider that shocking to find out. I’m not posting on Chump Nation any more- I do not think we are very supportive of one another. I think you both are petty and dishonest if you say you wouldn’t be surprised if your X cheated with a same-sex partner if they’d been hetero to your knowledge. This blog is supposed to be about people who’ve been cheated on, not people who are self-righteous.

        • Rose, you think what you want, I do not jump on people, I can not remain silent when I see prejudice. I do not feel comfortable when someone makes bigoted and insulting remarks about someone’s gender identity, end of story. I am not going to make any attempt to educate you on why the remarks were offensive and uncalled for. I doubt it would do any good and this is not the forum for it. Suffice to say the persons spouse was not bi.

          • Damn iPad, posted to soon. if what you related had happened to YOU rather than some celeb I might have said it more gently, understanding your pain might have bearing on your language, hoping that was what caused it rather than bigotry. I would still have posted it.

        • Rose, all I hear is you being butthurt because you said something really bigoted and got called out on it.

          It doesn’t matter that the AP is trans. That has no bearing on it. What matters is he was a cheater and she was an AP. That cuts across gender identity. Pointing out that the AP is trans is putting aside what actually matters and placing anger where it doesn’t belong.

          People here are VERY supportive of each other. I’ve had plenty of support from everyone here, and I’ve seen others receive and be very grateful for support they’ve received. If you think this is an unsupportive board, then you probably haven’t been paying much attention to the comments that come from CL’s posts and I would wager that the problem is not a lack of support from others, but rather you.

          I agree with Dat. I call prejudice when I see it. And if you really think that calling out bigotry makes us “as bad as the people who cheated on us” then I think it’s a good idea you’re flouncing. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

          And since I’m SURE you’re wondering, yes, my ex DID cheat on me with someone of the same sex. And no, that’s not what pissed me off the most. (I actually LAUGHED.) It was the ho-bag he knocked up.

          And btw, a trans woman is a woman. So your ex is not “bi.” In order to think that, you have to subscribe to the idea that trans women are not real women. Do yourself a favor after you’ve left and learn a little bit about gender identity.

          • Well said, Kara (and Dat, too). A related point is that, like anyone else, trans women can be cheated on. Imagine coming here for support and finding mindless hatred. Would you stay? Would you stay among people who tolerated someone saying things about you that might as well be said by someone throwing a bottle at you from a speeding car? I wouldn’t. I’m a gay man (though married to a woman … long story I’ve posted about) and I find it hard to find entirely safe places for support ..but my woes are nothing compared to what trans people face.

            • Appreciate you and Kara getting it. I honestly don’t think Rose understands that it isn’t the “shock” but the denigrating and derogatory remarks that caused us to object to the post.

          • If I may put my two cents in. The pain we experience is not changed depending on the gender identity of the person or persons our cheater’s cheated on us with but I do get a far more visceral reaction from others when I tell them that my ex was answering sex ads for both men and women then I would if I said “Oh, my ex fell in love with another woman”. It’s not because there’s something wrong with bisexuality although I seriously doubt my ex could fall into that category, it’s because the acceptable STORY of cheaterhood and affairs typically involves heterosexual infidelity. I’m not saying that’s an accurate representation at all (and please don’t go after me about gay cheaters….I totally know it’s just as common )but it’s less likely to raise eyebrows than it coming to light that someone’s partner who has previously identified as straight now has a same sex affair partner. And yes, I know a trans woman is a woman. I can’t imagine being stuck in the wrong gendered body and the journey it takes to have your outside reflect your identity inside. However…I don’t think it’s totally out of line to say that a famous man having a relationship with a person who still physically has the male parts isn’t going to raise a few eyebrows and score higher on the strange meter. It has nothing to do with the true gender of the woman in question but rather how common that sort of thing becomes public. And please forgive me if I have said anything ignorant. I have known people in the past who are transgendered but I’ve never been closely involved. I am however 100% supportive of their journey. I think perhaps some of the wording could have been stated differently but I get what she was saying about shock value… respectfully to you all of course. Dat I really respect your opinion all though we have differed in the past on such things as porn 😉 but I always value your input. ANR I hope you still feel safe. I just think that if someone disagrees or sees ignorance that unless that person is a cheater we could maybe be a tiny bit gentler. We have been a bit riled up lately. Oh, and just so everyone knows I’m a regular poster but my name is changed because I think my ex may be lurking. I might just be paranoid, but I’m being cautious for the moment.

            Btw. I also think that it doesn’t hurt any less or come with any more solace if you find out your husband or wife is cheating with the same gender. It still equals a complete loss of the life you thought you had with that person and turns your history into lies. I think the betrayal is equal. And for me finding out that my very vehemently straight husband was getting blowjobs from men is exactly what made me realize just how fucked up he was and it slammed the door on me ever wanting contact with him. But that has nothing to do with me being anti gay or even anti blowjob.

            • Chump with the long temporary handle: I do still feel safe here. I don’t assume, here or anywhere, that nobody has a problem with my being gay but if they treat me as a person and don’t insult me they can think whatever they want as far as I’m concerned.

              You (and Louise) are right — we need to treat one another with respect and gentleness here. For the most part we do, but of course we don’t always. I’m looking at my own posts here, though, and honestly I don’t regret what I said, and don’t find it disrespectful.

              • Chump with the long temporary handle: ROFL….I was thinking of being “Deep thoughts by Jackie Handy” a la Will Ferrel with a female twist. But the topic was so serious today. I just hate for any chump to lose the support that this blog can be. It’s been a true lifesaver for me and I would be very sad to feel turned on. Erm…I mean like people had turned on me. Lol. Being turned on is certainly not the topic here typically. We may not all be perfect but we have all suffered a horrendous thing and it does not matter what our beliefs outside these posts are as long as we are not being INTENTIONALLY hateful. Which I know is basically what you were saying. And of course CL has the final say on what is appropriate and what is not as per her note to readers today.

        • Rose, it can get harsh around here at times. There are so many people with differing points of view. I fully support gay/transgender rights, but understand your point that it must have been shocking for that young woman to discover her husband had been with a pre-operative transgender. When it comes to comments and responses, a little kindness goes a long way, because aren’t we here to help one another? To me, that is one of the best gifts CL has given us; it is up to us collectively to treat one another with respect, even when we disagree about something.

            • I agree. I’ve seen some remarks that can be taken as racist but I have a thick skin and understand people’s pain and what comes out during their grief. My stbx was a closet racist, hated fat women, and short women. His OW suffered with dwarfism, was of this race and fat. His activity of choice beside screwing was eating out and stuffing her face. Upon d-day my description of this trollup was NOT politically correct at all! But I was hurt and people in this situation aren’t thinking straight. For a month afterward it seemed a little person’s convention came to town . I was triggering all over the place. I never had this issue before but thank God, I have moved past it.

              STBX is an idiot. She was just the flavor of the month.

              • jinx, that was so well put. I understand that what Rose said was “technically” wrong, but it was said with raw emotion. I wish that we chumps could have been more gentle with her when enlightening her about her insensitivity. At this point there’s so much anger I don’t think she’ll come back. A shame, because this place is a godsend. I’d be lost without it so I don’t want anyone who needs this place to lose it.

        • Would I be “absolutely shocked” if my wife had cheated with a woman rather than a man, seeing that I have always thought she was heterosexual? I can honestly say I wouldn’t be.Of course I’d be a little surprised, but the cheating is what would get me. I’ve always assumed my wife’s picture of what is attractive resembled me to some degree, and as it turns out her AP has the same sort of genitals as I do but otherwise barely resembles me. That was surprising, but it is what the cheating and lying and mental cruelty after disclosure that got me.

          I would be more shocked if she cheated on me with a pre-op trans man, for sure, but mostly because she would really have had to look for one, as I assume Hank (and btw who the hell ARE these people?) searched out his fuckbuddy. That’s not her style (he said, fingers crossed). I guess you’ll have to take my word fir it that I’m being honest. But am I being petty? How, exactly?

    • Eh, I don’t know that it matters who he cheated with. He’s still a cheating fuck regardless of who it was with. To be honest, I’d almost feel better if my X cheated with the same sex, at least then I could say to myself, “Well fuck I obviously can’t compete with that.” Know what I mean?

      I guess it doesn’t matter. I’m sure the people who have had this happen to them don’t feel better about it either. It all pretty much sucks.

      • Them actually having sex with someone isn’t even the worst part. It’s the frigging emotional abuse they dump on you so that they CAN screw somebody else.

        By the way, Kitty (nice name, my kitty is named “kitty”)… make an excellent point – that would have been better than feeling less than Skankalina.

        • “Them actually having sex with someone isn’t even the worst part. It’s the frigging emotional abuse they dump on you so that they CAN screw somebody else.
          By the way, Kitty (nice name, my kitty is named “kitty”)… make an excellent point – that would have been better than feeling less than Skankalina.”

          Very true. It might damage the ego less. But I don’t think it’s any less painful. Finding out that my ex was so um….active in so many truly effed up activities did cause a higher creep out factor for me. But I think that was discrepancy between who he presented and who he truly was at his core. For a while I think I felt the way that women who discover their husbands are murderers must feel. There wasn’t just a whole hidden relationship but a hidden very very gross lifestyle. Once again though…not any more painful that what anyone else suffering from infidelity has experienced though. Maybe just a different kind of horror.

      • agreed. Plus– what about emotional affairs. who the hell knows who’s on the other end of the video/phone/whatever. and does it matter? no, it does not.
        Point is, our partners are connecting in intimate ways with others– that’s really out of bounds in a purportedly committed relationship.

        I always think it’s the lies that are the worst. Any kind of Queer phobia does take away the awfulness of that. My $ .02

    • “My X also confided to me that he dreamed of killing people many times, and that he fantasized about it and seriously considered taking up the life of a hit-man, because he knew he was without any kind of remorse. Yes. You are not alone. In the fantasy of him living the life of a hit-man, my son and I were going to live in a villa in South America and he would visit us. Between murders. Yup. Can’t make this stuff up.”

      That’s one sick crazy dude.

  • FL:

    My heart goes out to you! What a terrible choice to make!

    Trust that your Ex partner sucks. Do not worry about why he is the way he is. He is sick, sick, SICK!

    This is a man who told you that he touched his sister sexually when he was a child. I would never, EVER trust this man around a child. Ever! But no court would ever award sole custody based on this kind of say-so. If, when he was a child, he was naive and touching his sister before he knew that touching was wrong (and he’d have to be very, very young), then that’s one thing. But for him to bring it up as an adult, as a delicious secret to share with you–that is sick and shows a love and longing for forbidden fruit–including incest with young girls.


    And yes, telling you all these deep dark secrets means he was grooming you, seeing just how far he could go without disgusting you.

    Take time to heal, both physically and emotionally. Keep seeing your therapist.

    You will survive. And when you have healed, you will learn to thrive.

    • I had to make a decision about abortion as well a few years back. I told one person beside my husband because it’s so personal and painful. Be kind to yourself – it was terribly traumatic for me and still makes me cry even though at the time I would have driven anywhere in the world to have it done. Just because it was the right decision doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt you to your core. It’s not an easy choice, and no one is ever pro-abortion, but I’m glad you and I had it as a safe option and that it was our choice to make.

      You’re a strong woman and you’re going to be fine. Please know that there are a lot of hands out here to hold you and pat your pat and hug you in chump land, and you’ll need them all – you’ve endured a lot.

  • Feeling Low:

    I am so sorry for what you have been through. Thank GOD you are seeing a therapist. I know you must feel awful for having to terminate your pregnancy. Take it from someone who had three pregnancies, and two kids: raising kids with a fucktard is so much worse! God bless you, and here’s to a much better future! Always remember how mighty you are!

  • Feeling Low, I am glad you wrote Chump Lady for insight and support. I hope you continue to reach out to people who will lift you up. Most importantly, I hope you feel low only because you have reached the hardest part of your experience and, that having found the strength and courage to make such a difficult decision, each step ahead will be clearer and easier and bring you to a place of peace and joy.

  • I am so sorry.

    What a wicked person. You found the right place to vent and grieve. Big hug.

  • FL, massive Jedi Hugs to you. Don’t try too long or too hard to understand him. Keep doing therapy and learning to understand you. Don’t blame yourself too much, learn to get rid of the woulda, shoulda, coulda past blame, and move on to will, shall and can for your present.

  • What a horrible life experience. Please, please do get some professional help, with a therapist who recognizes this kind of personality disorder. Yes, like CL says, your picker needs adjusting. Mine does to. Hugs to you. I agree with CL, the abortion was the right thing to do. I applaud CL for making her beliefs known and taking a stand regarding the activity on her site. Well done!

  • Guess what sociopaths do to women who get pregnant. They kill them! Scott Peterson is a prime example. You dodged a bullet, literally!

  • Feeling Low, even Ted Bundy came in a nicely wrapped package! Be kind to yourself, sending you hugs and blessings!

  • CL – thank you for that message on the bottom. This blog is truly a safe place.

    Feeling Low – don’t beat yourself up over this. You did the right thing. Signing yourself and a child up for a lifetime of abuse was not in the best interest of either of you.

    You were able to escape with a clean break. Be thankful for that and be kind to yourself. In time you will see that this was the best option of what was available to you.

  • Chump Lady – Your “readers note” reminded me of first finding your site and reading the “About Chump Lady” section where you describe that you’re the friend that will be there at 3AM and pour you a bowl of raisin bran and advise you to leave, etc…! And also reminded me of your very helpful post to me about the appropriate response a mother should have to protect her baby. You’ve got our back and, my God, there were days early on when I felt like you and the amazing chump nation where the only ones there to dust me off and put me back on my feet.

    Feeling Low – You’re courage is palpable. It might be hard for you to see or feel your strength right now. But, look how many of us here can see it/feel it. You’re going to be ok. Big Hugs.

  • Dear Feeling Low– so much support and compassion here. None of this is your fault–as CL says so well, you got stuck with a sociopath. They hide so well among the real people. (The better to feed on us, far as I can tell). I offer you so much heartfelt support for all that you have been through. Your are one brave lady, and a smart one, to make the choices you have done, and find an obviously insightful therapist, and follow through on rebuilding your life after tangling with one of these–somebody here calls them hyenas?? — it’s a perfect descriptor (except I kinda like hyenas–the females are badass. But I digress…)

    I just wanted to offer a shoutout to CL for her timely and enriching wisdom–as always!, welcome you to the subshop where we all get to order shit sandwiches :/ and tell you I think you’ve already done so much good stuff for yourself you are an amazing strong woman and are going to be fine.

  • FeelingLow I am so very sorry. You’ve been put through hell. Please be kind to yourself. You absolutely did the right thing. I understand and completely support your decision.

    Sending you love and compassion and many, many hugs, my dear.

  • FL – even before I got to CL’s answer I thought sociopath.

    And you did the right thing.


  • Feeling Low,

    Can’t say anything as eloquently as the post and all these comments have already said, but you have my most profound sympathy and respect. It’s hard enough to be chumped, but then to face a dark decision that I cannot even imagine – and you had the presence of mind and guts to think it out and make an incredibly brave, difficult, and unselfish choice. Be proud and stand tall.

  • Feeling Low, I am so sorry for the pain you must be feeling right now. Please don’t be too hard on yourself. We want the person we have chosen to be an upstanding citizen, we want to believe the best of them, we want to believe in the dream that people can change. Problem is, these people can’t. Oh, they spout the right words and act the right way … for a time, but, inevitably, they revert back. This is who they are. I truly believe, once a cheater, always a cheater.

    Why did he tell you these things? Shock value. Are they true? Who knows. They could be and then again, maybe not. He’s a liar. My XH was a liar. My motto became, “believe half of what you see and 1/4 of what you hear.” If they were true, I’m willing to bet there was much more that he wasn’t telling you.

    Be glad that you have run away from this madness. Continue with your therapist. And, don’t EVER read another email, answer a call or see this man ever again. No matter what he says, he will never change…no contact is the best way to go.

  • Thank you CL for putting the note at the bottom. FL, I didn’t have the exact circumstance you did, and I cancelled the abortion appointment I had set up, but I understand the torture of the decision. No decision in that circumstance is easy. It’s a buffet of bad options when pregnancy doesn’t mean the happy family it’s supposed to. I love my daughter, but I was hoping so hard my pregnancy would just naturally abort and it took years to forgive myself that I was even pregnant in the first place. It will take time, a lot of hard honesty and a lot of tears, but you will pull through it. I’m crying all over again, I feel your pain, I really do. You will never find any snarkiness from me on this, ever. ((((HUGS))))

    On another note, you wrote “He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people.” ……..hun the tornado sirens are going off and not shutting off. Do you know his sister? He basically just said he sexually molested his sister as a child…God knows what kind of hell she’s probably going/been through because of that. I haven’t read any of the Sociopath books, but my husband has and all I can think of is how there’s gotta chapters that use that douche bag of a guy as the character in question. RUN! Don’t walk. RUN, as fast you can, away from that guy.

    • STRONGLY AGREE. Get away and stay away from this predictor. FL seemed to have the right initial instincts but needs to believe deep down that he’s who he’s says he is… a bent person. It’s hard to maintain that conviction of a gut judgement… especially when you’ve been isolated from common opinion like support groups, friends, and family. When we put these things out in the world…the stink is easy to smell.

      • “common opinion like support groups, friends, and family. When we put these things out in the world…the stink is easy to smell”

        So true. It’s places like this where we begin to understand that these people are actually out there, and how alike they are, and how predictable they are. It allows you to advance from those “gut instincts” (which are so easy to second guess) into SEEING that this is real..and it is really happening. So crucial to accepting the situation, and extricating ourselves from it.

        • Ya Einstein, I just wished I clued into that truth 9 years ago. I kept it all inside. This blog has saved me in many ways. Most of all it brought me back to friends and family by giving me language and perspective to express the loss of chump-innocence.

  • On a lighter note, the word hyena seems very appropriate. I keep visualizing Life of Pi and some of those Nature Channel specials.

    Back in the good old days, one day my wife and I took a wildife tour out west. Our guide pointed out a coyote,and she then explained to us that coyotes were considered “kind of the scumbags” of the animal world out there for their sneaky, scavenging ways. I kind of like that name tag also. They seem a cut or two below hyenas.

    • Noooo, coyotes are at least pretty. Hyena’s look like they’re up to no good. lol

  • Best book in the world for you: ‘The Sociopath Next Door’ by Martha Stout.

    She says: everyone think sociopaths are axe murders in jail but they are not. Most of them are smart enough to figure out jail isn’t a good place, and they are alive and well and living near you. That you can tell a sociopath by the trail of hurt and destruction they leave behind them.

    This book will comfort you.

    • “That you can tell a sociopath by the trail of hurt and destruction they leave behind them.” I wasn’t going to read this book until I read this, but that’s pretty descriptive of my X. Past history of tearing lives apart . . . but it wasn’t his fault don’t cha know.

      • Yep same here too.

        Ex h had a scar on his leg from where an ex girlfriend stabbed him. He dismissed it as nothing, and SHE was crazy. Uh huh. Now I know how she got that way.

  • FeelingLow, so much of what you wrote is what happened to me. We’d break up…he’d just want to be “friends.” Just want to come by and “see me.” Write to me sometimes, send cards in the mail, etc. It was a way to keep one foot in the door. We were dating and not dating for 5 years. Yo-yoing up and down. It was a way for him to keep me off balance. “Oh, but we aren’t *really* dating. We’re just friends.” He avoided outright commitment at all costs. Testing commitment perhaps? Until it was inconvenient, and he found a new woman to bed.

    The strongest day of my life was after a year of “no contact.” My daughter and I ran into him at the mall. We chatted and then he asked, “So, can I call you sometime?” I looked him dead in the eye and said, “Nope.” and walked away. I was done with the instability and manipulation. D O N E.

    And my daughter cheered me on with an “All right, mom!”

      • a good friend of mine ran into a mutual friend of ours who had been horribly mean to both of us, among others. When the nasty bitch said, “it’s so good to see you, we should have coffee some time and really catch up”, my brilliant pal replied, “we should be polite to one another but I don’t really ever see the point in having coffee together”. I always thought it was a classy response that put her directly in her place.

  • I just finished reading FL’s post and haven’t the time (I’m at work) to fully read your response. I just wanted to react immediately with a sobbing, heartfelt, text-hug to this beautiful wounded soul. I cried with both compassion and anger on her behalf.

    I’ll collect some thoughts later, but for now… pass onto to her the nation’s love and support.

    FL, you’ve come to the right place. 🙂

  • FL

    We may be anonymous but please add my love and support to that which has already been so eloquently expressed by so many others.
    Sending you strength and love right now x

  • Feeling Low, I’m so sorry for everything that you have endured but please rest assured that you made the right decision for you.
    Forty some years ago (before abortion was legal) I was a young teen and got pregnant by a sociopathic fuctard and guess what? I’m still in therapy to this day because this child grew up with the same personality disorders. She has absolutely broken my heart a million times over. He never gave me a dime in child support, denied paternity and tried to kill me when I was three months pregnant. My parents sent me to live in an unwed mother’s home. I insisted on keeping my baby. I married a nice man (not the cheater) who adopted her and gave her a stable home with lots of love. She turned out exactly like her biological father who she never spent a minute with. Really weird for sure. Back in those days we never thought about things like that being genetic. We thought ‘love could conquer all.’

    Don’t look back Feeling Low….just forward!

    • Arrrgh! Sorry Syringa. 🙁 From what you were saying before, she sounds utterly delightful. I know how hard that must be when it’s your child. Sigh.

      • There’s an interesting book by child psychologist/best-selling novelist Jonathan Kellerman (“Why Kids Kill” is the title, if I recall correctly) about the question of psychopathy and nature vs. nurture. He wrote it in response to the increase of school shooting incident prior to Columbine. As might be expected, he saw both genetics and environment as “causes” but he talked about a number of cases where the child raised in a loving home had signs of psychopathy from a very early age.

    • One more thing Feeling Low I should have added. Twenty years later my birth control failed and I found myself facing a very unwanted pregnancy and that time I had a choice in the matter and I chose to have an abortion.
      So I have been faced with both ‘choices’ and you can guess which one bothers me the most after all these years.

  • Feeling Low,

    I admire your wisdom and your strength and your ability to do one of the most difficult things you may ever have to do. (((HUGS))) It is never an easy decision to end a pregnancy for any reason. Treat yourself kindly.

    As far as that – I can’t think of a name foul enough to call him, and that’s saying something – let’s just call him shit-covered pig beast from hell, there was no way for you to know what you now know until you knew it. I don’t know too many people who get involved with and fall in love with someone wanting to believe the worst about them. I always tell people and you cannot and do not try to understand crazy. If you actually understand crazy, that probably means you’re crazy.

    This guy is a sick, twisted, conscienceless and abusive piece of shit – and that is all he is capable of being. There is no there, there. There is no way, with the information most of have, to initially recognize people like this in our lives. It is only in the aftermath that we gain the wisdom that hopefully protects in the future. God and the Universe in their infinite wisdom have blessed you and removed this pond scum from your life. That was a gift. Do not try to ever pick up something that God and the Universe have told you to put down. You have, hopefully, just experienced one of the worst things you will ever experience, and while it has been painful, you have survived. You have strength that you do not even know you possess. I am sorry that you had to make the choice you made concerning the baby, but it was for the best. Imagine the abuse he would have been able to heap upon a dependent and defenseless child. May you find peace with your decision, knowing in your heart it was for the best.


    You have the wisdom of a sage and the mouth (pen/computer) of an oracle. Thank God for you and Thank God for the gift of this space that you have created as a safe place for those of us who needed just this place of safety. Thank you, as well, for fearlessly and courageously standing guard over this space and protecting the voices and feelings of those who come here. You are a gift.

  • You, are a wonderful, warm hearted, trusting soul who does not deserve any of this.

    He, is a shameful, toxic, waste of space.

    I don’t think you will ever understand who he is, or what drove him to behave in this appalling manner. You are hurting desperately now, but just think of every person commenting here sending you supportive vibes.

    NEVER, EVER, think that you ‘bought this on yourself’ or in anyway deserved it.

    I’ll be thinking of you over the coming weeks, sending healing vibes and wishing you strength.

    Dark Horse. xx

  • Just finished ChumpLady’s response. Words of Gold:

    “Before you forgive yourself for being chumped by a con (and do forgive yourself), first take a hard, unvarnished look at your chumpiness and work on that.”

    Welcome to a very distinguished club…we’ve all been fooled by a cheater…and some of us cheated on many times…and it’s pretty common to take on guilt and even anger at ourselves. It will come but let it come to pass.

    BTW, I too reflect that sentiment that you’ve done the most loving and caring thing by your difficult choice. I actually can’t believe what a strong and wise thing you did.

    You’ve been hit by a rather big truck. Not your fault.

    Rebuild, heal, move on.

  • Feeling Low – I’m not good with words, but wanted you to know that your decision was obviously very painful to make. I am so glad you had a therapist to turn to to help you talk it out and come to the decision that was right for you and your circumstances. Thank goodness I never had that type of choice, I was going crazy just trying to deal with the rest of the stuff – I can’t even imagine having that thrown in the mix.

    Good luck with your healing and I hope you can take a bit of comfort in the kindness of all the people on this site!

  • Wow. Oh wow. I’m crying. I’m crying for you FL. I’m crying because of the true compassion of CL and chump nation and how incredibly humble and blessed it makes me feel. And I’m crying for Tracy who even though I know has moved onto better things lost the chance for more kids.

    FL. One of the surest signs that you’re around someone who is soul sick is that you end up repeatedly in situations where there are no good options, only the decision between awful and painful. I am sooooooo so sorry you had to be in that awful position. I was pregnant when I found about the cheating. But when I found out my ex was also a narc addict I was horrified to think that my child would possibly inherit such traits especially since my ex’s dad was also a cheater addict who committed suicide.I coudn’t imagine being tied to such an awful man through a kid. I very seriously considered not keeping my child and actually went as far as scheduling. In these situations there is no good decision only the right decision for you. I know the soul searching it takes to make that decision either way. These men are very very good at what they do. And really they’re probably the closest thing I can imagine to a demon. You didn’t do anything to ask for that. It’s not your fault. Datdamwuf has it straight when she talks about how insidious they are. Much much love to you.

    And much love to chump nation. Seriously, Tracy and those on this blog, I heart you big time!

    • Hey no crying. I hate when you guys do that. 🙁 Everything will be fine. You’ll get there.

      • Thanks Dat. No, it’s ok. I was crying for Feeling Low. That’s such a hard thing to go through. And I can relate to CL about having another child. I very likely have also given my cheater ex the last of my fertility. I think sometimes we see CL as so strong and far beyond her cheater experience that we forget how truly painful her experience was. I just mean that sometimes a bit CL shares makes me feel empathy for her. She’s like Wonder Woman! But still a woman ya know? And also the outpouring today really touched me.

        In a lot of ways I am way past the pain of things. Right now I’m just going through the motions of dealing with the official stuff. My ex is trying to reduce child support to such a small amount in comparison to his earnings. Part of me is detached and just simply accepts that he’s an asshole. But it’s all part of a process. And even though I don’t fully identify with being a victim anymore…well we’re just not done enough officially for me to say that he doesn’t affect me anymore.

        Btw. I’m pretty sure even Wonder Woman would fall for a really sparkly narc. You know, but at least if she got suspicious she has her lasso of truth. CL has a lasso like that. Well, she can’t make liars tell the truth but she certainly puts it out there.

      • Crying’s not so bad, Rumblekitty. It can be a huge help sometimes, I think.

  • FL, I am so sorry you have been through such a horrible situation. I wish you healing and peace as you recover. A much brighter future is ahead for you…

  • Nothing of substance to add here, FL. Just thoughts and prayers going out across the tangled wires of the Internet in your direction. Though you feel alone, you have us at your side. Though you feel hopeless, you have better days ahead. Though you feel low, you are mighty.

      • That’s really lovely Nomar.

        FL, I wish you the best during this awful time. I can’t imagine what you have been through and the difficult decisions you’ve had to make. I wish you blessings and peace.

  • First, i am so sorry that you had to go through all of that. From the excitement of being pregnant, to the realization of what life would be like with him as the father, to the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make. They’re all right though. He told you who he was and he will never change. You are well rid of him. He would only continue to cause you pain.

    My ExH and I had been trying for a few months when Dday hit. I had been excited to see the pregnancy test results as I was a week late. Then Dday and the shock and the horror and the heartbreak. That drop from excitement from a possible positive to thanking every deity i could think of that the results were negative. Especially when I found out he and OW were also trying to get pregnant.

    My heart goes out to you. Take care of yourself in these coming days. We’re here for you.

  • I just wanted to say this . . . I know I might come off a little aggressive sometimes but the thing is, I want chumps to shake this feeling of being a victim. Everybody here made some mistakes. We all ended up with people who treated us horribly and we didn’t deserve it. Everybody here got a shit deal. The thing is, you learn from it and keep going. You have to. You weren’t put here to be a cautionary tale. We all got fucked over, but you keep moving forward and take those things you learned, put them in your pocket, and just be thankful for all the good that’s left. And there’s a lot of good left.

    Sometimes, just turn your eyes from what happened, and just imagine what’s to come.

    That is all. 🙂

    • Another great comment RK. I used to be feisty like you once but it got knocked out of me along the way, however, I will say I have a very strong character which got me through otherwise I would be dead of that I am sure.

      • You didn’t get it knocked out of you. You got the wind knocked out of you. You’ll be back; allow yourself time to regroup. Nobody bounces back from this overnight. Time is the great healer here.

        I hated when people told me it takes time, but it does. You also have to actively disengage from the thing that caused you pain. I don’t know of any other way to do it. It creates an open space in your life, and the next thing you know, good things fill it.

    • Rk, I always thought you and Rally Squirrel would make good video game characters.

  • Right on Rumblekitty. Well said. “We weren’t put here to be a cautionary tale.” Thank God.

    • Oh RK, how right you iz! The pitty party ain’t no fun at all and it just stays in one place. Moving forward and away is the only way to go.

  • Dear FL,

    I am so sorry that you had to go through such pain. I can only hope that you keep these experiences in mind for the future. I’m not a regular commentor, but today, I feel that I should. Because FL, I have a child that came from an abusive relationship (cheating, gaslighting, blameshifting are also abuse to me, next to the other crap insultyname did). And from my experience it is hard to have a child be born in such circumstances as yours or mine. It’s even harder when the child grows up and insultyname would be in and out of the picture, whenever he felt like it, which would cause a lot of pain for your child and a lot of pain for you. No mother wants to see her child suffer. But what I personally find hardest, is seeing my child’s sirer in my child. I love my kid, of course I do, and I know that my child is their own individual, but it is still very hard to deal with. Even now, I am already a few years at ‘Meh’ considering the cheating, but seeing this person’s traits in my child brings back a lot of ‘forgotten’ memories. It is something I wouldn’t wish upon anyone.

    Also FL, please know that you are not the only woman who has had an abortion because the sirer was a mental case. It hurts and you feel terrible, especially when the child was wanted. There is nothing anyone can say or do to make you feel better. But you will heal, you will give it a place in your heart and time will go on. Don’t listen to what other people have to say about your choice when they critique (is this how you spell it? Not a native English speaker, sorry if it’s missspelled) you, they are not you, they do not know what you know and most of them don’t care about the quality of the life the child would’ve had. But you cared about the quality of life. And that is very important.

    I wish you much strength.

  • Dear Feeling Low,
    I let the X back into my life after he spent 20 years keeping “tabs” on me. “Grooming” – now there’s a concept. In fact, over that time, I was completely baffled that he kept turning up in my life. I knew EXACTLY who he was and I had left a long time ago. I knew, I KNEW!! – and yet, I let the wolf in the door again too. I had the whole “if you decide to get involved with someone else just end things with me” conversation with him too. Only now, 2 years out, do I really see how ridiculous that was. Murdering kittens – that really describes how crazy that conversation and any expectation I had from it actually was – yes, we may as well have discussed murdering kittens.

    In the face of very powerful forces, your body and your heart, you made a brave and amazing decision. And what everyone is saying here is absolutely true, it doesn’t matter why he does what he does. Your spine turned to iron at just the right moment. Something inside you was strong and certain.

    You are mighty. He doesn’t matter – not anymore.

  • Hi FL,

    I really just wanted to extend to you my support and hugs. You have really come to a caring and supportive site. I am thankful for the honesty on this site, and for the collective wisdom. Please ensure you look after yourself, and call on your family and friends for support. Although I have not personally had to make the decision you made, I have a friend who did. We who love her never have and will never judge her.

  • As I read this today I wanted to cry but couldn’t. I was at work and just couldn’t, but it made me think of a lot of past mistakes. This may be confusing…where my life COULD have been…where my life SHOULD have been and silly mistakes that teenagers make that have a huge impact.

    My ex-wife ended our first pregnancy because I wasn’t mature enough to be a Dad, or so I thought. I wanted to go to college and she wanted to be a married mom. That was in 1988. I question everything about that now….What was true and what was a lie? I have no idea. This I suppose will be my pain to deal with until I die.

    Anyways, I stayed with my wife, had four children and was married for 21 years before she cheated. I am divorced now and the house is empty and I am alone. My kids are nearly grown but seem to be more interested in having a relationship with me and only see their mother about once a month.

    I sit here now with tears in my eyes and think about the pain of these things. I can’t judge anyone for abortion because I’ve been there and regret so much. All I know is that I wake up every morning and look forward to reading this blog….and next week I get to take my kids to the beach on summer vacation. That’s all I have to say.

    • Jedi hugs ffghtr67, learn to remove “woulda, shoulda, coulda from your lexicon. Try therapy, you needn’t have pain until you die over something that may have Ben the right thing at the the.

  • Feeling Low,

    You have every right to feel low as you have just reached rock bottom with this asshole! Just don’t stay low. It’s gonna be a rough road but one well worth travelling to the other side of light.

    I am so sorry you had to go through an abortion as a result of this mess. There are just no words I can say. Just know you made the right choice in this case without question. Life would have been a continuous state of hell!

    I relate to your story because as with you, mine revealed to me he was a Sex Addict (cough, cough) fairly early on in our relationship, of course after he hooked me. Like you, I didn’t listen to what he told me and of course, I asked him to let me know if he felt like he was sliding down a slippery slope in his addiction (cough, cough again) and that even if he cheated I wanted to know. LOL, I laugh at myself now even stating that to him. I am fairly certain mine was a sociopath as he also told me another time that he didn’t even know what a healthy relationship was.

    It’s amazing when you look back or at least when I look back at how friggin easily dupable I was. I am someone who has always been very good at reading people instantly I guess not so good when it came to me! I am now!!!

    I took this as a big warning sign and wake up call that I had some changes to make with myself and fast! The anger I first felt at him and then at myself was that of a rage. I was so hard on myself and then realized, I was fucked up to allow this to happen to myself. Shit, when someone basically tells you they are a lying, cheating asshole and you don’t listen to them, uhhhh there is something that really needs to be addressed within you! That’s when I went easier on myself and knew that I had some vulnerabilities that needed attention and fixing. I learned alot about myself and how I got to such a vulnerable place ripe for the pickin of a sociopath.

    The only thing that made me feel better was knowing I bailed at 10 1/2 months, whereas, his wife was with him for 20years, then another woman he met after his divorce for about 2-3years and the girlfriend before me, on and off for 4 years. So I got off easy in a relatively short time!!!

    With that said, that relationship should never have even been a relationship (not that you can have one with a sociopath anyway, realized that after the fact). Mine should have been over after the first date as I wasn’t even attracted to him and felt he was creepy. The best part was in the beginning he could never remember to zip his fly after going to the bathroom whether it was at a party or at a restaurant, lol. Always ready I guess, either that or always jerking off and forgetting to zip up.

    So, needless to say I spent the next 1 1/2 years fixing myself after that horrible debacle. Here I am so much better and happier than before.

    Thanks CL for posting that post script on Pro Choice! That was super kind and correct to do and I am a Washington Marching Pro Choicer myself!!!

    Feeling Low, ok to feel that way now but please please don’t get stuck there and don’t wonder why he did this to you. The fact is that he did, that makes him Numero Uno Cruel, Sick Asshole not worth your snot from crying! No need to know why as you will never understand it anyway as you aren’t mentally deranged so don’t make yourself that way trying to figure it out.

    As CL advised very wisely, work on you and how you got there and how you will get out from there to the other side where people care and have feelings and don’t get off on causing others misery and harm.

    Look at this way, you already experienced the worst and it was pretty fucking awful. There is only up from here. You will know that in the future when someone tells you they are an asshole that leaves no room for interpretation and you will keep on walking forward!

    Sending you lots of love and strength to work through this and you will, I promise! I did.

    Oddly enough now I feel the pain I went through was worth it to get where I am now, in my case it was the catalyst for me to be my very best and that feels a whole lot better than being with the absolute worst leftover on earth! I look forward to continuing my travels on this road. It’s the most rewarding walk I have ever taken.

    • Great post, Deborah! That sure picked me up – I feel like I’m starting to notice the butterflies again 🙂

    • Deobrah, I totally understand your comment that the pain you went through was worth it to get to where you are now. I’m not through my pain yet, but I can already tell that in time, it will have been worth it as well. I will be a better and stronger person for this. And yes, my life is already more rewarding.

      • Glad to have helped to strengthen your resolves! Don’t get me wrong, it still isn’t easy. I often still have struggles with Narcs and Extreme Self Entitlement as it’s everywhere, especially in my business which is fashion. The difference is that now, I see it immed., recognize it and react with a bit of anger and then kind of laugh at it in an all too knowing way.

        I just have accepted the fact that assholes are not and will never be OK with me. I will not remain quiet about that. Not that I ever did remain quiet about in the past, but now I take proper action against it. Just experience a situation in a business meeting yesterday with such an asshole and it was fun to see it from my new perspective on this side.

        What makes me laugh is I still feel like a part of a minority that isn’t ok with assholes! I am glad that those in my life that are close to me feel as I do. Support definitely helps so thank you CL once again and Chump Nation, you all are amazing and the strength here doesn’t stop amazing me. We all just have to keep excerising our ANTI ASSHOLE MUSCLES on a daily basis!!!

  • Thank you all for the kindness, wisdom, and understanding you extended toward me today. I cannot begin to tell you how nervous I was about what comments might be left regarding the abortion. I immediately began to cry after reading Chump Lady’s disclaimer, both out of gratitude that she created the protective barrier and out of fear. But the sense of community I have felt today has been empowering. In the strangest sense, I am proud to be a part of the chumped group because today’s comments and Chump Lady’s posts have shown me that the chumped are considerate individuals who not only heal past their pain, but also take the time to create a safe landing space for the newly wounded. Thank you for creating that space for me in what has honestly been the toughest time. I wish you all the same kindness from others as you heal the pain that remains with your stories. And thank you for retelling those wounds in order to spread hope when things have seemed so bleak. Chump Lady, thank you for sharing my story and for creating this for all of us, especially with enough compassion to ensure that this is a place we never have to feel abuse. I hope to continue to learn from and grow with all of you.

    • FL, thanks for checking in. Steady as she goes. Get your sleep (Ambien if necessary). And eat (cans of Ensure if needed). Recovery from infidelity is a test of physical endurance, and you have to treat it that way.

      There is self-interest mingled with the compassion at this site. Your wounds are too fresh to see it now, but in time you will come to know that telling your story and reaching out to others in distress is part of the healing process. It is as important to getting past infidelity as physical therapy is to getting past a spinal injury. It is how Chumps learn to walk again.

      So thank you for sending your letter and giving us all a chance to chime in. It was very brave and very generous.

    • FL, I have nothing to add to what nomar has said so well other than to wish you well and let you know how glad I am you’re here. Take care of yourself.

    • FL, wishing you the best recovery. I hope to hear in the future that you have come through this sorrowful episode. I hope after you have grieved for your loss that you start a fresh chapter and that your dreams are realised with someone who deserves you. Don’t look back.

      All the best to you.

    • FL – I hope you can give yourself all the time & space you need to grieve your losses, recuperate & heal. It’s a difficult, non-linear process & other people in our lives often don’t understand that. You are brave & resilient but there will be days when you won’t know how you’re going to get through this. This site & these good people will give you respite & shore you up when you need it most. There is much wisdom & compassion here. We’re pulling for you all the way. Take good care of yourself.

  • Feeling Low, I buried a husband at 26 and at 59 will probably divorce my now husband , father of my children, cheater, knowing full well my history. Everyone here has a different story, painful but the common thread is betrayal, lies and lacking in trust. I don’t know much yet, but there has to be a better life on the other side. Starting over again…wishing you the same. Peace&Love

  • My STBX is a different kind of narcissistic fucked upness – BUT – my boomerang narcissistic sociopath exbf is of the same pool as your ex guy. He came back a thousand times, tail between the legs, he was fickle but now he knows what he wants, he had to fix himself and rid himself of his baggage before he could be with me, etc etc etc.

    It’s all about them, not about you. He needed someone OR he liked / missed the way you made him feel about himself – and once his tank was filled with his own brand of self worship he fled. I’m still in my self discovery phase but I wouldn’t see what I see or be where I am without 1. therapy 2. a good support system 3. amazing blogs like this one. It’s a process but I’m done picking poop bfs husbands etc…

  • See ya later Chump Nation. I thought this was a place where people come to be supportive after being cheated on and abused. But this is my second very bad experience here and I begin to see some truth to what the anti-chump nation people say: you really do whip up into a frenzy of hate, judgement and mob-like mentality. This is worse than spending time with my cheater.
    I’m beginning to trust that you suck.

    • Rose, I won’t apologize for objecting to your bigoted post: “He cheated on her when she was pregnant WITH A MAN WITH BOOBS. That’s right, a pre-op trans woman still flying the winky flag. He cheated on her with an alternative gender.]”

      To post such a derogatory and demeaning description of another human being simply due to their gender identity and the difficult transition they undertake, that’s hateful. And when a few of us pointed out you were being offensive and unwelcoming to a segment of the population, (possibly including people who may be reading this blog looking for help)? You accuse us of whipping up a frenzy of hate, judgement and mob mentality. Srsly, I can’t even wrap my head around your bullshit. When I gently explain why your post is offensive, you completely misunderstood. So a couple of other people tried to explain, still no dice. You remind me of a racist who doesn’t understand why anyone would be offended by their racist remarks. You don’t recognize your own bias even when asked to examine it.

      Trust that we suck, far easier than engaging, educating yourself and perhaps learning why what you said was so incredibly hostile, hateful and vicious. Hell, you might have learned tolerance and respect for other people in the process.

      One last thing. You might recognize that when people disagree with you it doesn’t mean they hate you, or aren’t supportive of your struggles. It usually means they have opinions, healthy principles, and boundaries of their own. It means they are willing to stand up for them and make them known. It’s healthy.

      • “You might recognize that when people disagree with you it doesn’t mean they hate you, or aren’t supportive of your struggles. It usually means they have opinions, healthy principles, and boundaries of their own. It means they are willing to stand up for them and make them known. It’s healthy.”

        Absolutely. I spent 18 years growing up in an environment where it wasn’t safe to disagree, followed, after a lengthy gap, by 13 years of marriage in an environment where it wasn’t safe to disagree. I owe it to myself and to anyone who might benefit from my thoughts and experiences not to act here as I did in my family and my marriage.

    • What I most disheartening is the conversation went straight to the gender issue, while totally ignoring her conversations about a serial killer! WTF, no support for an abused woman living with a serial killer, but tons of conversation correcting her personal beliefs about gender….WOW!

  • FL, like you the cheater in my life would “come and go,” although we didn’t have a romantic or physical relationship for most of three decades. We were “friends,” but there was always that under-current of romance. Most of the time one or both of us was married and therefore off limits as partners. So in some ways I didn’t have the negative cheating experiences during dating to serve as red flags when things became “romantic.” But. As I look back, I can see the “grooming.” And he would take me just to the point where things might get serious and then…disappear, only to send a letter or an email or something years later as if nothing had happened, just checking in. He was like a a fisherman with a dozen lines in the water. Every once in a while, he would pick up one of the poles and give it a shake to see if a fish would bit.

  • I’ve never told anyone this. After my X cheated the first time 10 years ago, I got pregnant with our second child. I did not want that baby. At all. It was too soon after our first child, and I could not comprehend how to be a single mom. So, I spackled, spread the fairy dust and prayed the unicorn would come riding in the front yard. I was prepared to be loyal forever, even as the narc was sucking the life out of me. Though my journey to “meh” isn’t complete yet, that baby is now 10 years old, I have a piece of my dad. As he grows, I have a connection to someone I lost too soon. Seriously, this boy is the light of my life and as he grows I see more and more of my dad in him. I got an amazing gift.

    This story isn’t a reflection on FL’s situation, and isn’t meant to be judgmental. Reading the comments of the others who have faced difficult situations brought it all back. Just felt the need to share.

    FL, hang in there. Follow the other commenter’s advice about depression. Part of our fucked up relationship was all of the hormonal changes that comes with pregnancies. Please tell your dr. or therapist about any mood changes and that sort of thing. Hang in there. It will get better.

  • I know this isn’t a confession site, but I think ppl would surprised how many women have had to deal with this. Whether it was a sad-sack boyfriend at 17 who raped you, while pretending to be your boyfriend. I, too, had to grow up too fast and I can tell you, those of us that have been through that extremely emotional life-experience, never ever forget it. I never told anybody but my mom who had to sign off, and she was pro-kids, having 5 herself. It was awful and nobody treated you back in ’73 for depression.
    I still have a hard time watching movies dealing with it.

    I admire your courage to do that alone, Feelinglow. Please, do yourself a favor and get some medical help to go through the hormonal change of that. I suffered in complete silence.

  • Feeling low-

    Sorry I’m a little with the reply. My heart goes out to you and I’m so sorry you had to make the choice you made. I concur with the replies that expressed that your decision to terminate was unselfish. Probably the most selfless thing you could’ve done. I shudder to even imagine what kind of hell you would’ve gone through if you had to share custody with this sociopath!

    I am so glad that he’s out of your life for good so you can concentrate on healing and working on your “picker”

    Sending love and support your way.

  • Feeling Low, Im so sorry you are in a lot of pain..
    I am honestly wondering what I would do if I’m in your situation.
    I don’t want to be deceitful like them psychos, but I’m thinking if I could just hide my pregnancy from him. Like maybe say I had a miscarriage so I won’t have to deal my child’s incestuous evil father. Like you Feeling low, I could never risk my child getting anywhere near that kind of monster.

  • oh god, Feeling Low. You hang in there. Hang in there. Can’t imagine what you are going through…you will figure this out. The voices on this blog will raise you up…I admire your courage…and the people on this site will lift you up, because they know…so painfully…but they know. Glad you are here. Stay close…it will save you!!! Bless you, honey. Hugs!!!

  • I am so sorry for your loss and the abuse received from someone who is suppose to love , honor, cherish and protect you. The loss of children as well the opportunity to bear them cuts deep to your soul. Regardless of our personal beliefs, do know we all are here to bear one another’s grief, offer prayers, and virtual shoulders to lean and cry on.

    Cheaters suck. They are like leeches, zombies, and vampires to the soul, trying to take the very essence/life force of all that makes you a decent human being. We trust these undead soulless creeps who only see us as food to be consumed to fill their bottomless pit where their hearts should be. Each day brings a new revelation. Trust that they suck!

  • “My X also confided to me that he dreamed of killing people many times, and that he fantasized about it and seriously considered taking up the life of a hit-man, because he knew he was without any kind of remorse. Yes. You are not alone. In the fantasy of him living the life of a hit-man, my son and I were going to live in a villa in South America and he would visit us. Between murders. Yup. Can’t make this stuff up.”

    This is some bizarre sick shit! Are you still with this serial killer? Has this person stared killing small animals or prostitutes. How did you cope?

    I am so sorry that people were so quick to jump on the gender issue while totally ignoring that you were held hostage, lived with a man that dreamed and probably acted on his murderous thoughts.

    I hope you are in a place of safety! These are kind of people that murder their families and neighbors, shoot random people out shopping, and go to college campuses and commit mass murder.

  • “Why even reenter my life as a transformed person just to destroy it? ”
    Dear FL,
    I gave a second chance to one who didn’t deserve it. After the shit storm hit the fan I blamed myself for being stupid and letting him back into my life only to bankrupt me in every way. I acted and reacted in ways I’m not proud of. It is part of my past, not my entire life.
    I simply wanted to send love and hugs to you.
    Welcome to the nation. There is safety and comfort to be found here like nowhere else.

  • Feeling Low,

    I’m so sorry you had to make a decision like this. Hearing about what he has done in his past and how he thinks about things , just know you are free from him being near you again. I am glad you are empowered to take hard stands in your life.

    He has really put you through a lot for a very long time, take care of yourself ok.

  • FL ,
    I totally know where you are coming from and the agony of the decision you made. I made the same decision many years ago when I had been involved with a man and Oh God did I love him! But….he was a total user, cheater and psychopath. It took me a while to figure out that he was actually a monster pretending to be a person. We had been together about 3 years when I left. Went home to Mom’s. I knew I had to get away from him though it was so very hard because I wanted him to be the man I had thought that he was in the beginning. I cried for months non stop. He kept trying to get a hold of me but I shut myself off. Shortly after leaving I discovered I was pregnant! What a difficulty decision!. I have been working on my picker but I don’t know how I still end up with creeps. Years before this man, I had been involved with another man who had cheated on me and ended up giving me an STD. He never told me about it for months until it got so severe that I had terrible symptoms and went to the Dr and discovered it. I was dumb and gave him another chance but because the STD had caused so much damage I ended up having an ectopic pregnancy. This of course wasn”t viable and after the surgery to save my life the Dr advised me that I would probably never be able to have children. I was only 20 years old. Then 7 years later I found myself pregnant living at Mom’s after leaving my second fucked up relationship. I knew that it might be my only chance to have children but I couldn’t live with the thought that this child could actually be a monster like it’s father nor could I allow myself to be chained to its father for the next 20 years. Hell I knew if I did that I would probably end up dead long before that happened anyway. So I too had an abortion. I think that this loss made walking away from this man who had hurt me so badly even worse but I had to do it. I never told him about the pregnancy out of fear that he would somehow force me to keep it. After about 6 months he finally quit trying to contact me. I didn’t date anyone for 4 to 5 years and one day I got a letter from this guy out of the blue. It had been postmarked from a city that was at least 1000 miles away. In this letter he asked me to forgive him and he listed all of the things that he recognized he had done to me. He also mentioned that he truly loved me and that he was going to be heading my direction and wanted to get together.. All of the pain came rushing back……But I stopped and realized that he was just up to his old tricks….he had probably gotten himself in trouble and was in a 12 step program and was just using me to fool the people that ran the program. I know one of the steps is to do inventory and then make amends if possible. Do I think he was sincere? only to the degree that he has the ability to and that is nada! I wrote him back just two lines…..You are forgiven …..Don’t come back…..It was painful to do that …..and I don’t know that it was courageous at all ….I think it mostly came from fear of being hurt so badly again……After him I didn’t date for about 8 years then I met my husband. I lived with him for 5 years before we married and he has been everything that these other guys were not up until recent history. We have been together for over 15 years and last year I discovered he was having an affair. My picker is fucked up! Well my husband has ended his affair and swore that he will never hurt me this way again. Me …..I’m numb and I don’t regret the decision I made those many years ago….my big regret is not getting some good therapy and fixing my picker… I will work on fixing my picker or I will never pick again. I don’t know where things will end up in my marriage but I’m not holding out too much hope….I’m of the mind that I will just wait and see what he is going to do…. That’s where I’m at now. I just wanted you to know that you did the right thing and that you are not the only one who has had to face that choice. On a positive note….I was able to get pregnant again after that and have two wonderful daughters.

  • I don’t even know what to say, I spent 6 horrible years with a cheating narcissist that robbed me of my childbearing years… I’m now almost 45 and although I have a child that is now 21 and incredibly amazing I so yearned for another child with someone I loved so much… And he blatantly stole this ability from me by promising a future so he could get what he wanted in the present…. I had a miscarriage due to the stress after finding out for the umpht time he was charting… I feel for you FL… Such a difficult decision to make…you have all my love…

    • Oops… Cheating… But might as well be “sharing” from all the bullshit I heard/was fed…

    • Ditto – I was 35 when we married. Dealing with the anger that I’ll never have a child was a pain, but am ever thankful that I am not permanently tied to that monster.

  • ((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) for you FL

    My thoughts are with you…. some of the best days of your life are yet to come 🙂


  • Not once did I judge you from start to finish, all I could do is feel your pain and cry. You are strong and I wished you all the happiness coming your way.

  • Haven’t read the comments yet but just had to give you total respect and affirmation for your stance for this abused woman regarding abortion. I am British so find the American stance on abortion totally abhorrent, where is the compassion? I know it’s not every American but unfortunately it is an image that taints your nation, there is no compassion, understanding or empathy when it comes to this issue, or that is how it appears to the outsider.
    I know it is a huge risk for you taking that stance and I am so proud of you for being so courageous, you made me proud. I’m no one to you, but just wanted you to know that. This is probably the worst and most heart wrenching story I have read through out all this, this woman needs our support, girlies, circle the wagons, she needs us! Xxx

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