Dear Chump Lady, Why did he come back if only to hurt me?

sociopath_memeDear Chump Lady,

I found your blog a few weeks ago, after finding out I had been cheated on for the upteenth time in six years. I ended things with him in 2009 after seeing he wouldn’t change and did not see him or have contact with him again until last year. He had emailed me over the years, always remaining friendly just to say hello, but I did not give much thought to these emails. When he contacted me last year, he said he was ready to commit and wanted us to have something true.

I took a risk, but asked that we either remain friends or take things slowly instead of him giving me a false commitment. He claimed he knew this is what he wanted. I also asked that he not cheat, and instead end things if he starts something with someone else. He agreed to this, and we had what seemed like a happy (relatively, when looking back on it) relationship

Things started to change in the past month, with him becoming more difficult to get in touch with and spending less time with me. Given that I had been through this with him, I knew something was going on and was able to take note of the girl commenting on his social media. He denied anything was going on, but my hunch told me otherwise. I found proof with her postings. I am not sure if she knew about me, but she posted enough for me to have details of their “love”.

I sent him screen shots of what I found so that he could not argue it, blocked his number, and email and have not had contact with him. I don’t wish to. He has made enough of my life a lie and truly disrespected me.

But I am struggling piecing a few things together and was hoping for your honest and logical input. He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people. I never knew how to understand this. He acted guilty about it, but given his behavior, I don’t know if that was honest. Why would he even tell me these things? Wouldn’t he have preferred to keep the image he paints for the world?

The worst part is that I was pregnant when I found out about his cheating. He knew about it, and wanted us to have the child at first, even adding that his mother, who was always fond of me, would be ecstatic. Within 20 minutes, he was already unsure and thought this was not a good time. This left me with the tough decision of whether to have an abortion or bring the child into the world on my own. I am in a place where I could have supported it well. I have a great job and helpful family. My therapist made the key arguments that I would have to be tied to my ex for life with this child and, most importantly, he would come in and out of the child’s life as he had done with mine. That, along with not knowing whether he does carry a genetic personality disorder given his childhood, made me decide that the most caring decision was not to do this to the child. I went through with the abortion yesterday, and it felt like the most traumatic thing in my life. Everything from being there without the partner to seeing the sonogram and having to make that decision purely based on my ex’s actions angered and embarrassed me. I am mad that I had to face the emotional and physical pain even though I would not have opted for that decision, and he was off serenading his newest girl.

I guess I want understanding on who this awful person is? Who would make me go through what I did yesterday, and alone? Why even reenter my life as a transformed person just to destroy it? I have been putting a lot of the blame on myself and would just like to understand this sensibly. Any input you can give would be appreciated.

Feeling Low

Dear Feeling Low,

Some people suck. And some people are over achievers at sucking. Those people are sociopaths. They’re predators. They don’t have brokenness or maturity issues, or whatever the FOO flavor of the month is — they’re sick in the head. They’re wired wrong. They’re sharks in people clothing.

It sounds like you tangled with a sociopath. And while you don’t say that, given that you seem to have a competent therapist and are aware that there is some evidence that genetics plays a part in mental illness — I’m guessing you know this. But perhaps you’d like some validation that your ex was truly bat shit psychopathic?

Anyone who tells you they “love” deceiving people is someone you need to run the hell away from. I don’t know when exactly this disclosure was made, during the first six years you dated him, or after you took him back, but I see why you’re beating yourself up and feeling like shit. He TOLD you who he was — and you didn’t believe him.

Join the club. You’re in good company. And THAT issue, FL, is the one thing you have control over. Who he is, why he did the things he did? That can only ever be conjecture. That’s untangling the skein of fuckupedness. You don’t control any of that. If it makes you feel better to read the Hare list and “The Sociopath Next Door,” do it. But I think you’ll heal a lot faster if you put the focus back on yourself. What does an acceptable relationship look like to me? Why did I let this guy batter ram my boundaries? Why did I take back a person who was a proven liar and cheat?

Please don’t think I’m kicking you while you’re down. You say you’ve blamed yourself. I don’t want you to feel icky and blame yourself. NO ONE deserves abuse. What this man did was obscene. But you, my friend, need to shore up your self esteem and fix that picker. Before you forgive yourself for being chumped by a con (and do forgive yourself), first take a hard, unvarnished look at your chumpiness and work on that.

Sociopaths will con anyone. It’s just their standing operating procedure. Con, lie, charm, abuse. Get angry at your hurt and upset. Step over your crumpled, sobbing body and fix themselves a Hot Pocket. It’s what they do. It’s nothing personal. If not you, it would be some other unfortunate soul.

But some people make it easy for sociopaths, and some people eventually sniff the crazy out and run away early. Ask yourself why YOU were the weak antelope in the herd.

I’m sure part of it is you are a kind, conscientious, giving person. You’re good kibbles. Sociopaths need a host to feed off of and good people are good hosts. There’s lots of value to suck dry.

But people with better boundaries go “Oh NO you don’t!” and don’t tolerate the shit. They only give their good to people who prove themselves over time and demonstrate good character.

See that word in bold? DEMONSTRATE. He had demonstrated “umpteen” times his poor character, but you were still prepared to take him at his word.

I took a risk, but asked that we either remain friends or take things slowly instead of him giving me a false commitment. He claimed he knew this is what he wanted. I also asked that he not cheat, and instead end things if he starts something with someone else.

In other words, you asked him to tell you before he lied or cheated again.

Good people do not need to be prompted to do good things. You should NEVER have to ASK for common decency.

Okay, I’ll be your friend, but you have to promise not to murder kittens. If you feel the urge to murder kittens, you need to tell me first, okay?

See how absurd that is? So is asking someone not to cheat on you, or tell them if they’re going to cheat, to end things first. If you’re going to get a burlap sack to put kittens in, before you throw them in the river, I want you to stop being my friend, OKAY? 

This kind of bargaining for decency is catnip (forgive the word choice after the murdering kitten segue) to disordered people. You’ve essentially put a sign on your forehead that says “Roll me. I’m a chump.”

Oh yeah SURE, says the sociopath, gleefully rubbing his hands together. You can trust ME.

I am so sorry this person was not the person you hoped he would be. And I’m especially sorry that you had to learn that lesson so brutally and unjustly and that you had to terminate a pregnancy over it. That was a very painful decision you had to make, and I think your therapist was right. To have had that child would mean that scary creep — who admits to sexually fondling his sister! — would be a man you had to hand your baby over to. To not hand your child over to him would mean years of harassment and legal expense and heartbreak.

On a personal note, when my marriage to my cheater went to hell, I was 40. I so badly wanted another child and at the time was trying to get pregnant. The first thing I said to the OW (when she called to inform me of her existence) was “I hope to God I’m not pregnant!” And I wasn’t. And I gave the last good years of my fertility to that asshole and I’ll never have another child.

Cheaters steal so much from us, FL. Infidelity is so traumatic. That’s why I keep this blog going, to change the conversation, so people will stop minimizing this shit.

But I am so grateful to God that I never had a child with my cheater. And I didn’t know it then, but my life reconstituted itself in a beautiful way. I’m remarried. I have two step-sons. I have a blended family. My son has the most wonderful step dad ever. Life DOES reconstitute itself. You WILL be blessed. You will heal.

This wing nut was one bad chapter in your life. He is NOT the only story. Don’t make him the central character. Who gives a fuck what motivates him or why he does what he does! Go out there and write new chapters with what you learned from this. Go be mighty and resilient. And go with the loving ((((HUGS))) of Chump Nation.

 

A NOTE TO READERS: If ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE gives this woman shit for having an abortion, you’re off my site. She has suffered enough. I’m pro-choice and proud to say it. NO ONE ever wants to be in the position FL was put in, and clearly she wasn’t having an abortion for the joy of it. You can be pro-life or pro-choice. I will keep any respectful comments up. But if there is any shaming — you’re outta here. I hesitated to run this letter because I didn’t want to open the abortion debate on my site. I hope we will all come together in compassion for FL. Thank you. 

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GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago

Low, I’m sorry for what you went through, and I totally understand your question. Those of us who are not sociopaths just cannot understand the minds of those who are, because in many ways, they are alien. They do not think like normal people, and scariest of all, they do not WANT to think like normal people, because they are proud of their ability to fool and con others. Your ex even TOLD you that he liked getting away with lies and that he thought about hurting people. Whew, talk about the sociopath red flags!

You will never untangle the skein of your ex’s fucked-upd-ness. Just be glad you are away, and continue to work on your own issues that led you to accept this horrible, horrible man back into your life. That’s all that really matters.

Listen to CL. You will eventually heal and go on to a better life. Being with a sociopath is pretty much the worst life can be, so it’s all uphill now.

If you want a look into the mind of a liar, check out this video by the Henry Collins Band, “Liar.” It might not be your musical cup of tea, but wow, he nails it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCLizTg9nWo

Amy
Amy
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

THANK YOU for sharing that Rollins song. I had completely forgotten about it! His lyrics (AND the situation described above by “Feeling Low”) describe the behavior of a narcissist. Check this out: http://esteemology.com/the-three-phases-of-a-narcissistic-relationship-cycle-over-evaluation-devaluation-discard/

Here’s more:
“At first you are put on a pedestal- the queen of his world, a goddess- no one could be more perfect- he can’t get enough of you. A short time passes and then all of a sudden you are being criticized, called worthless and the cause of all his trouble- and he dumps you. Only to return sometime later to beguile and charm you and win you back, telling you that you are perfect, etc. The cycle continues. Repeated over and over, for as long as you are willing to take it. The narcissistic cycle consists of the narcissist “over-valuing” his partner, unfailingly followed by a period of “de-valuing” his partner. One day you are the greatest person on earth to them, but when you don’t do or say something they wanted you to, or you ask something of them that they don’t want to do- they demean you and ignore you. You are no longer important to them.”

Source: http://thenarcissisticlife.com/the-narcissistic-cycle/

Di
Di
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

Get OUT of here! I had this as my ex’s ringtone for almost week.

Sarah
Sarah
9 years ago
Reply to  Di

Great video! Wowza!!!!!

Pam
Pam
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

OMG OMG OMG! I LOVED that SONG!!!! THANK YOU! I watched that video over and over again. Had to laugh at what a chump I had been….describes my relationship PERFECTLY!
THANKS, Gladitsover!

Chump Princess
Chump Princess
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

GIO,

Wow. Just Wow. Love this.

Deborah
Deborah
9 years ago
Reply to  Chump Princess

GIO,
So glad you posted that video. I watched it a few times after I left my cheating liar as that was the first song that came to my mind! I love Henry, he is so intelligent. Used to love watching his show on cable. Makes seeing the truth so much better when he is telling it!

chimp Lady
chimp Lady
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

amazing. He nails it. the creepiness factor. The damage. Phew!

Luziana
Luziana
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

Oh, my! On D Day I blasted this Nonstop in my car as I did errands and sobbed!

Sad in Seattle
Sad in Seattle
9 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

ME TOO!

Tonya
Tonya
9 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

Never heard of this one before and just watched it now Glad – wow – brilliant!

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

Yeah….he really did!

Gooddog
Gooddog
9 years ago

Know and understand your pain, well, FL. Youve done the best you could with a bad situation. Hope you will forgive yourself, fix your picker before plunging back into the dating pool, and have a good life from now on without that sociopath in it. God bless and stay strong.

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago

He didn’t come back “just to hurt you”. He came back because you were there. His emailing from time to time, was his way of keeping tabs on you. He knew he’d hit you up again for some kibbles. That he could get back with someone who left him before made the kibbles extra special. Believe me when I tell you, as CL did, don’t take this personally. That shit will keep you stuck, and it didn’t have anything to do with you. Never did. You were the first poor schmuck he ran into one day when he was looking for somebody to con. People are nothing more than objects to be exploited for their own gain. That they lack empathy is not a reflection on you. It’s on them.

This is going to be a rough ride, but you will make it through.

diana L
diana L
9 years ago

I think the simplest explanation of who this guy is is that he is completely selfish. He wanted you and he said what he needed to to get you back. He doesn’t care if he hurts you or if you are miserable.

It’s possible that he feels guilty, but since it doesn’t change his behavior, you need to stay away from him.

Champ Not Chump!
Champ Not Chump!
9 years ago
Reply to  diana L

From what she wrote, from what he told her, I doubt he is capable of guilt.

Feigning guilt (love, affection, commitment, caring) is a whole different ball of wax that he’s apparently very good at. That is what sociopaths do.

FL, there is no understanding that will ever make sense to your mind or heart, and there never will be. The explanation begins and ends with “he is a sick, sick man.”

I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through, for a choice you had to make that you didn’t want to ever have to make. Sending you the biggest hug.

Promise us all that you’ll never even consider speaking to him again. Not tomorrow, not next year, not ever. He does not deserve a woman as forgiving as you are.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago

CL, you amaze me. You keep amazing me day after day.

When I got to the part in the article that she had terminated her pregnancy I found myself making judgements about her — funny how even when I have had to make that decision myself long ago that I could possibly be judgmental, but I was.

Then when I read what you wrote at the bottom I just felt such respect for you and how brave you are. My judgement went away and I felt compassion for this woman as I should have from the beginning.

To Feeling Low, you’re not alone. I’d imagine almost all of us were somewhat transformed and on our way to a better life when we allowed our cheater to re-enter our lives, at least I was. It’s as though we need to be absolutely positively sure that they suck even though we know they do. We have to be certain beyond all doubt.

Then, when they show us that they suck, we’re not really surprised, and most of the disappointment goes towards ourselves for believing them yet again.

The important part is that you’re awake now and have a clean slate. The future is all yours and you finally know that it will, under no circumstances, include him. Go easy on yourself for a few weeks, remember that pregnancy hormones are still pulsing through your body and will no doubt wreak havoc on your mood. Just keep breathing.

Spend the next year getting support and therapy so that you can make sure that nothing like this will happen to you again — get to know yourself. You’ll be amazed at what a difference one short year can make.

And of course, keep coming to CL, to help you realize that, sadly, your situation is not unique.

Tonya
Tonya
9 years ago

Dearest Feeling Low,
Firstly I will offer you my greatest heartfelt empathy. I am in tears after reading your letter.
I too had an abortion back in the late 1980s. I was living in London at the time and I was very young and very involved with this man who I thought I loved but I can say now in hindsight that he was a complete and utter bastard. My decision for having the termination was pretty much the same as yours, I knew I would be forever tangled up with this awful head wrecking man. Also I discovered that he had another woman pregnant at the same time. I have since discovered that he has four children with three different women, none of whom he committed to. Point is – this sort of person will NEVER change.

I will also tell you that the experience floored me and that I hid it from my family at the time. I felt I had nowhere to turn. I gave up work because I could not face the world – I retreated into myself, I blamed myself. It took some years for me to recover but only because I hid it. You writing here is a big step to accepting and dealing with what has happened to you.

Please, please be gentle and kind with yourself – you have suffered a huge loss and you are not to blame. Your decision was right for you, devastating as it was. You will grieve and you will be angry and you will come through this and you can heal. You do not deserve this it happened because you dared to trust only to be trampled all over again.

I am sending you huge warm hugs. Listen to Chump Lady – her advice is brilliant and empowering.

Chump Change
Chump Change
9 years ago
Reply to  Tonya

Dear feeling low,
My heart goes out to you for having to make such a heart wrenching decision. You did the right thing in this horrific situation so please hold onto that. If you had to raise a child and allow that sociopathic monster into it’s life, that would have been volunteering for a lifetime of abuse for both you and your son or daughter.
Your post reminded me of the experience I had, finding out I was pregnant weeks afer my wedding when I was 21. I had a copper 7 IUD at the time, and carrying a baby to term with it at that time was not recommended. I remember going to planned parenthood alone, because my new husband wouldnt pay for my abortion, (we had both quit our jobs to take an extended honeymoon- guess he didn’t want to spend honeymoon $ on something so frivolous. Hmmm. He wouldn’t let me buy any of our wedding photos either, all I have is the proofs! ) He had me pretend I was single so Medical would pay for it. Why didn’t I stand up to him? This is so painful to remember that I had blocked those details out. How shameful. Why am I surprised 36 years later to realize that I married a sociopathic serial cheater and con man, and I’m now fighing for everything I have worked for my entire life.
Learn all you can about co-depencency. This is why we allow people to treat us this way, because we are looking for validation from outside ourselves. It is a long road to recovery from co-dependancy. Its a process of rewiring our brains. But you made a very tough, yet self protective choice. You can now rebuild your self esteem and life in a healthier way.
Thank you CL for taking a strong stand about this issue. You Rock!

God bless.

Nicole
Nicole
9 years ago

I am so sorry you went through this horrible situation on your own. Please, please talk to your therapist about the potential for postpartum depression. I terminated a pregnancy 19 years ago with my Ex at 21 weeks (due to the baby having severe/incompatible with life birth defects) and his lack of support and caring, coupled with the hormonal imbalances that occur naturally during birth (which happen whether the birth was natural or induced/terminated) led to me having some pretty major depression that I did not get treated afterwards (due to my Ex wanting me to just “get on with life and quit moping” – i.e. get back to worshiping me and doing my bidding). I wish like everything now that I had gotten therapy, taken meds if needed, and done what I needed to do to heal my body and heart after the experience. Instead, I was back at work 3 days later and basically had to act as though it never happened from that point forward. Don’t do this to yourself. Be gentle with your emotions, your body and your heart. Don’t make any major life decisions right now either. Just REST (take medical leave from work if you can) and focus on healing body and soul!!

Maree
Maree
9 years ago

Completely agree with your final comment CL. We females unfortunately are left with some terrible decisions to make in our lives, like dear Feeling Low has had to make. I cannot begin to imagine having to make such a choice. I do hope that Feeling Low has support around her and that in time she will heal and get on with her life and be happy.

Feeling Low, please keep coming back to Chump Lady. This is a community of men and women who have been through the fire and have come out the other side and each of our stories are very different but with an underlining theme of betrayal and devastation. It is an awful road to walk but walk it we do with our heads held high. I do pray that your life is now better without that scum bag around. Take care young lady and we are all behind you and with you. 🙂

lucky35
lucky35
9 years ago

Feeling Low,

I don’t know you and we’ll probably never meet. Despite the anonymity of this, please know that I am sending you love, support and good thoughts for your future.

b.f.
b.f.
9 years ago
Reply to  lucky35

Ditto that. I have experienced similar. Know that you are not alone and hopefully you can take support from this group.

DefyingGravity
DefyingGravity
9 years ago

FL: I think your instincts were correct that you needed to sever all ties with this disordered person. It was the healthiest thing for you and for any children you might have someday. I am sorry that you had to make such a difficult decision. But you were strong and doing so has protected you and any future children from a life of abuse from your ex. Great job keeping yourself healthy and safe, and please take time to heal.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago

“He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people.”

See, this bothers me because all three of these admissions should have been enough for you to sit up and say, “What the fuck am I don’t with this . . . thing.” The problem isn’t just that he’s a sociopath, the problem is you accepted this PROVEN sociopath back into your life.

Stick with the therapist and figure out why you did this. You need to fix why you thought this was the best you could do, because I can assure you, you can do better than than him.

And this, “Why even reenter my life as a transformed person just to destroy it?” Well, he was never a transformed person. I know you wanted to believe he was, but he will never be anything other than what he’s SHOWN you he is. Crazy people like this, they don’t change. Not ever.

Hugs to you.

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

“He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people.”

My ex told me about consensual incest with his sisters when they were in their early teens. He spoke of this not with guilt or shame, but seemed to find it funny. He told me a couple times that he sometimes fantasized about stabbing his mother to death, and about stabbing me to death. He told me that he sometimes fantasized about turning our car directly into oncoming traffic on the freeway when we were all together in the car. He never boasted of getting away with lies as a kid, but I’m sure he felt that way. He once bragged to our son that he could cry at will, and the way he did it was by thinking of son killing himself.

I look back on these things now and cannot believe I stayed with him for so long. But it’s surprisingly easy to overlook or spackle this kind of stuff. It’s not like my ex was openly treating me horribly every day — he was often very kind, supportive and nice to me, when it suited him.

I totally understand Low staying with her ex despite these admissions, but also agree that a person who DOES stay with someone so clearly announcing their disorder shows that the person has some fairly severe self esteem or FOO issues that require treatment.

PlainChump
PlainChump
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

CL, do sociopaths “groom” consciously?

This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
9 years ago
Reply to  PlainChump

I think it matters only in the sense that some of us like to have an understanding of the way things work. And also, if you’ve been hit by a bus you at least know what a bus is. Getting hit by a sociopath or narc is very like being taken by something that t is unidentifiable even though it comes in a human body. Of course where the trouble lies is when we stay stuck trying to figure this stuff out or we use these explanations to excuse someone’s behavior. I am almost past it but I too still wonder about my ex’s motivations. But I’ve been curious about human behavior for a long time. (If you can call these guys human).

I think the answer is both yes and no. I think it’s part of the nature of the animal and I think in the beginning it’s more of an in the moment type of thing. Although I’m not an expert in sociopaths but I can at least share what I’ve seen my narc do to me and other women.

I can tell you exactly when my narc started grooming me. After we’d been together for a while he wanted to try something sexually that’s not usually my cup of tea so to speak. I’m pretty open minded and I think when you’re in a normal relationship you do experiment a bit with each other or try something that the other partner is interested in because you care about them. The problem is that the longer we were together the more regular and normal that became. You sort of wake up one day and go, “hey, I don’t really like this, I would never let another man expect this out of me regularly but when I mention it, my significant other never really overtly pushes the issue but sort of subtlety indicates that maybe I’m disappointing or repressing him. Then he continues to push in all of these other areas. Always only barely pushing over the boundary of what you think is appropriate. They’re not overt with killing that hard boundary in the beginning. And then there’s the part where he makes you feel special. After I left him my ex was answering craigslist ads, as he had been prior to our marriage. I saw one of the the ads. His response to it was “I don’t usually do this, but there’s something about your eyes.” Hers was probably like the 40th ad he’d answered and he said things like that to all of the ladies. But I’m sure it made her feel special because supposedly her eyes had enough of that “something” for him to do something he never had before. This was a much younger woman too. I think he got a rude awakening when he realized 20 somethings aren’t as interested in guys with ex wives and their kids half the time. After he got rejected a few times he went back to approaching women in their thirties and forties for his fake relationships but kept after the young ones for hookups. For me the grooming started right in the beginning but I don’t think he was self aware and consciously deciding to use me until at least a year in. I’m sure there’s more disordered variations that do. But so I think the grooming part probably isn’t conscious but the using part is.

Btw, fifty shades of gray is a prime example of someone grooming an individual in the guise of romance. I think it’s fair to say that some of these disordered freaks are particularly attracted to those with strong convictions and a goodness or innocence around them.

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
9 years ago

I am almost past it but I too still wonder about my ex’s motivations.

I agree. After thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion that he probably wanted a European tour and thought using my place as a pied a terre would make things easier for him. “oh baby, we didn’t need a rental agreement between us…….. don’t you trust me…….”

this guy also came from a large employer. I never checked but it’s possible that his employer could have had a sabbatical program making it easy for him to take a year and go right back to them…… same salary, job title and so on…. Otherwise, why on earth would his boss give teamplayer of the month award….. during a month when he was only half at work?

It’s good to have high standards for the people that you “do business with,” that has a natural anti con person repellent.

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
9 years ago
Reply to  PlainChump

Why does it matter whether it’s conscious, subconscious or unconscious. You need to realise when it’s happening. and really, it happens often when you think about it. I was dating a guy once who was making 6 figures and said that he saw a future with me and was happy to move not only city but in this case country.

His efforts to find a job in my city were pathetic and settled on a job that cut his earning power in half (after 2 months of looking and as he tells after 25 resumes were sent out, I should add. and oh yeah, that was the first company that he interviewed with).

And then he had this bright idea that if he moved in with me, I would gain so many benefits off of him — like getting rich off of collecting rent from him.

since he was talking marriage, why would I want to make money off my future husband?

Now years later, (don’t worry , he never moved in with me) I think about how often he would tell me stories about how awful his job was; how much he couldn’t get along with his coworkers — never mind that in the middle of this he told me he got a team player of the month award — during the month in which he took 2 weeks vacation. of course, so that I would be happy about any job he took after that, even one that might require me to supplement his income…….. like giving him accommodations at below market rates……

I say now, if you ever find someone trying to get you to do something, particularly something that you are hesitating on, start listening to the stories that they tell after that. You may start notice how purposeful those little vignettes are.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Duh! I just understood why Jackass told me about his involvement with a ring of people stealing and chopping cars. I was shocked. Then I said, “Well, he just told me that he knows it was wrong and hasn’t done it again…” He was pushing the envelop to see what I would do. And I stayed and spackled.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I disagree with the premise that he told her who he was and the problem is she stayed. I’m not sure you had someone this manipulative in your life if you say this. I assume that Feeling Low didn’t explain the context of his admissions of troubling issues due to space constraints. She said too: “He acted guilty about it” and “Why would he even tell me these things? Wouldn’t he have preferred to keep the image he paints for the world?”

I’ll tell you why he told you those things, and make no mistake! He told you the least of it, things you would accept. Abusive people select victims and they show a different face to you, but they do it gradually and carefully so as to break down your boundaries. Break them down, one inch at a time, if it goes to fast you notice, you might leave, you might see those flags for what they are. Sounds to me like this bastard is the Martyr Man. Once he knows you love him, The Martyr Man manipulation evokes empathy and sympathy, a desire to help this person be the wonderful person you think he really is. After all he’s treated you so well, until he doesn’t any more.

Perhaps this resonates; He only confesses a “bad” thing when you have told him something vulnerable about you. So he must reciprocate but he doesn’t know how to be vulnerable. So, he told you he’d done bad things/felt bad things and then explained how they frightened him, how horrible he felt for these things. How much it hurt him, how sorry he was. Always things he had done in the past…they are always far in the past. How he learned better, how he would never do such things again. How there were “reasons”, some bad thing done to him that caused him to act badly…someone was to blame for what he’d done, subtle but there, sometimes not so subtle but believable (Dad abused him perhaps). Then he cried and begged you not to leave him, that he was a better person now. That he would never harm you. This segues into the “You’re so Special” part of the manipulation. How he is different with you. He would not lie to you, never have dark thoughts about you. You see, you are so special, he was broken but you make him whole. Then he begins to do bad things to you, little by little. When you can’t deal with them, when you tell him you will not accept it? There he is again, the broken Martyr Man who loves you and never meant to hurt you, he could never hurt you and without you he is forever lost and broken. He loves you and you are so so special. Rinse, Repeat.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Brilliant post, DDW.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Yep. This is what I mean. After the shit I’ve been through, I’m very keen on recognizing the signs and using what I’ve learned in the past to whatever happens in the future. Looks like I get to try this shit out because I just met a guy this Friday who seems like me. 🙂

I told him I wasn’t really interested in dating yet, but I still friend-ed him on Facebook later anyway. He’s been emailing with just innocent conversation, and at one point gave me his number. Then he emailed again and said that he remembered what I said about me not really into dating at the moment, but he just wants to get to know me. He said “I hope I didn’t seem too pushy.”

I like this! To me, it shows he was actually paying attention to what I said. And hooray he’s not sending me dick pics and asking to come over! No red flags. At least not yet anyway . . . lol.

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Oh yeah….the dick pics…..always charming.

Deborah
Deborah
9 years ago
Reply to  Einstein

Good Luck RK! I love hearing about Chumps finding a decent girl/guy after this shit!

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Is cool, Rk! I get what you mean, just sayin, the LW believed he had changed and had to learn he hadn’t very painfully. Hopefully it will be a lesson learned. If it didn’t take us a while to get it there wouldn’t be so many chumps who got chumped again.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

I appreciate that. We’ll see about the guy . . . right now, happy single time. 🙂

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Jedi hugs RK, hope that guy works out

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

This is why I think all chumps need to really INTERNALIZE, these fuckers don’t change. Not ever. If they were capable of ripping your heart out once, they will do it again because they know they can. That’s just how their minds work.

The number one rule for all chumps is, protect thyself. I love you, you fucked me over, you don’t get another shot to do it again. There’s another 9 billion people on the planet that deserve a chance for a spot in your life, not the one that has PROVEN that he values poo.

Go GET EM CHUMPLINGS! WOO!

Maree
Maree
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

RK, I always enjoy reading your comments. You come across as a really together and feisty woman and I admire that enormously.

Good luck with the fellow on Facebook. He might turn out to be a really genuine chap. I hope so.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Maree

Thanks Maree! I am feisty, but I wouldn’t say I’m really together. 😀

We’ll see on this guy. He’s divorced too and yes his X is a cheater. We had a nice conversation about getting back out into the world after being kicked in the teeth. So far I like him. No sparkles, very respectful, seems quite sweet, and he’s a tall drink ‘a water too. 🙂 I’d rather just get to know him slowly I think. Serious dating will happen but right now, 4 months post-divorce, I just want to learn how to be happy single.

Tonya
Tonya
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

“I disagree with the premise that he told her who he was and the problem is she stayed. I’m not sure you had someone this manipulative in your life if you say this.”

Dat, I’m with you on this one. It is so subtle the way these creeps work. They reel you in little by little – it’s not always obvious and that’s where the mindfuckery comes into play. Before you know it you’re in up to your neck and caught in a sticky web. If we could all know what they were up to none of us would be here.

ThatGirl
ThatGirl
9 years ago
Reply to  Tonya

I agree with the slow creep of how they work on your boundaries.

When I think back on some of the small things exH said to me, I want to slap myself for dismissing them. But that is how they work. They drop these little reveals, little turds of their real self in very small doses so you won’t be alarmed. If exH had told me all of his little turds at once I would have instantly pegged him as a nut and ran. But no, it took years of increasingly fucked up words and behaviors for me to get the full picture…or rather for me to see what he really was instead of what I wanted him to be.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  ThatGirl

I agree, ThatGirl, I had actually convinced myself that my monster of a cheater was a Tony Soprano type character, and Tony’s wife wouldn’t expect him to change. I was at the point of accepting that my life would now be with this man who is morally bankrupt. Thank goodness he dumped me in the end! I was going to be loyal to him.

Only way is up
Only way is up
9 years ago
Reply to  Moving Liquid

ML, you wrote “I was at the point of accepting that my life would now be with this man who is morally bankrupt. Thank goodness he dumped me in the end! I was going to be loyal to him”. >>>> This really jumped out at me. I was with him for 25 years. I felt the same. In the beginning I was or thought I was destroyed. It turns out his “dumping me” has been a lifesaver. I am feeling like my life has colour back in because he really sucked the life out of it.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

posted before done, sheesh. Once you’ve experienced this, or been educated about the bullshit that our culture pushes on us, then yes – those admissions with the tearful regrets are recognizable red flags.

Toni
Toni
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Wow DDW, that’s the Ex bastard to a T. I got busy with my own life – started a business – started spending on me and spending less time on building him up…honestly I was tired of doing it because nothing ever changed so I worked on ME and thought I could provide for our future that way. So then he hurt me in the worst ways possible to try and rehook me. Well fuck him! Amazing what time can do to let you see clearly…

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Yes, I have had someone this manipulative in my life. I’m the last one to blame chumps for the bullshit inflicted on them, and as a woman, I “get it”. Nobody has to “educate” me on the bullshit society inflicts on my gender.

But IMO, when you’ve already experienced bad behavior from someone in the past and then allow them back into your life, that is a problem. The focus needs to be on you, and to figure out what you thought you were lacking that would allow them back in. This was a person who was fired in 2009 and allowed back. That needs to be fixed; the part where we don’t protect ourselves from obvious danger.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Yeah, RK, a year ago I left my husband and was feeling strong. It destroyed him and he pursued me relentlessly. He literally got on his knees and begged me and so I went back to him. A mere few months later he was done with me and had no response when I was on my knees to him. He did do me a favor in the end. Our highly dysfunctional relationship is finally over.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Moving Liquid

He certainly did do you a favor. And this is what I’m trying to explain: Along with him being a problem, GOING BACK was also a problem. He can be a fuck-stick, asshole, dirt-bag all day long, but if he’s not in your life, he can do you no harm. And that’s all I’m saying.

Sure they are manipulative and we chumps want to believe them, but at some point, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, you’re having foie gras for dinner because this fucker is exactly the same guy who broke your heart before. I’m not trying to be unsympathetic or harsh. I’m trying to be empowering; because when we realize we do have the power to leave and to STAY GONE, our lives improve. And our lives ALWAYS improve without a cheater in it. Always.

DoneNow
DoneNow
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Exactly! I was going to add that in my comments and I forgot. It is a TEST. How will you react? I think it’s fun for them, really sick. I don’t even know if some of the things my ex told me were true, or just an experiment. Doesn’t matter, either way it’s awful.

Marci
Marci
9 years ago

Dear Feeling Low,
You have my respect for being courageous enough to make a hugely difficult and heartwrenching decision. Really it was an unselfish decision because you have saved another human from undeserved suffering…potentially of many kinds.

You now have your freedom to go and find a decent partner if you wish, but armed with some more resolve to know and set firm boundaries. When a man tells you who he is, believe him. Don’t spackle even little things.

I have in recent times walked away from prospective partners because of red flags: One with a long ago criminal conviction when he said what happened “wasnt his fault”; Another who thought nothing of stealing from shops; another who couldnt stop talking about an ex girlfriend. Just believe them when they show you they are not quality people. Easier said than done…but then choosing your family is a volume undertaking…process them efficiently.

NeverAgain
NeverAgain
9 years ago
Reply to  Marci

I wish Tracy would do a post on what a “quality person” is because from posts on this blog and others, it’s astonishing that so many people, especially women, don’t know what that is. And I think this is a really big deal! I’ll read something like “he told me he liked hurting people or was involved in a porn ring or had sex with his sister or stole money from his mother for 20 years or cheated on every single one of his past relationships…” and so on, and somehow this guy STILL looks attractive and a good bet as a partner? How is it possible that such shocking admissions are no longer shocking enough to set off huge alarm bells in our heads?

I don’t mean to be harsh, in fact I blame our current state of cultural fuzzy thinking where “everybody is ok just as they are” and nothing is universally right or wrong, it’s just “what’s right for me.” We all suffer from that kind of confusing relativism. I have a friend who allows other people to take appalling advantage of her. They constantly show her they aren’t reliable, trustworthy or respectful and when I ask her why she doesn’t stand up for herself and kick their asses to the curb, she just shrugs and says “I don’t think what they’re doing is wrong, they’re just in their own worlds and perceiving their own reality.” HUH? I don’t even know how to untangle that skein.

So we need a refresher course not only in red flags but in understanding fundamentally what’s a good, decent person. This would seem to be a no-brainer, but apparently it isn’t!

DoneNow
DoneNow
9 years ago

They will kick you when you’re down, every time. That’s one of the huge red flags that you’re dealing with someone with some serious problems. Those were the times when I had the most doubt. Now from reading other peoples stories (yours included) I see that it’s not that unusual for sociopaths to act out in terrible ways during the times we think we need them most. Again, as CL has said, it’s not something most of us could ever understand or make sense of.
I know you weren’t really asking for reassurance about your decision, but I will add that I think you showed great maturity and incredible compassion with the choice you made. Those of us who have children with these kinds of people in our heart of hearts wish we could have learned what we know now before having children. Nothing is more horrible than watching the pain and confusion doled out by the disordered parent on your child. It’s the most painful thing I have ever had to face, and I try to stay positive about their future, but the truth is I don’t have total control over that. Anyway, take good care of yourself and leave this guy eating your dust.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  DoneNow

My wife is not nearly as extreme as the men FL, DDW and GIO describe, but this line got me: “They will kick you when you’re down, every time.” Goddamn, that rings a bell.

thensome
thensome
9 years ago
Reply to  ANR

Yes, that rings a bell for me too. Just dreadful.

PattyToo
PattyToo
9 years ago
Reply to  thensome

Yep, me too. And at the time, I just passed it off ( low self esteem). I was 6 mos pregnant, laying in bed with an infected ear. Ugh. He wouldn’t even sit with me, or bring me tea. He was downstairs, partying with some friends.
He showed me how he didn’t care, and I made excuses in my head for him. I feel such pain for that young person that I was, married to a great big Narc!
And, Feeling Low, I also terminated a pregnancy, many years ago. I’m sending you love, you will get past this. We all learn our life lessons, and carry on.

Dr. I Can't Believe I Am a Chump
Dr. I Can't Believe I Am a Chump
9 years ago

I’m so sorry for what you are going through. Deciding to terminate a pregnancy is a difficult choice. Escaping a sociopath is like running out of the rabbit hole.

The blame is squarely on your ex. He is a sociopath. This is evident by his deviant behavior and lack of empathy. To put it squarely, your ex has no feelings. He is absolutely incapable. He does, however, have a disturbing psychological disorder and there is a debate if these individuals can even be treated.

I am not a mental health professional, so I am not an expert, but below are some sources (only when you are ready):

Donna Anderson has a great blog about sociopaths:
http://www.lovefraud.com/

Martha Stout has an informative book:
http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828

I hesitate to add this one because it creeps the hell out of me (in a “hairs on the back of my neck stand up” kind of way), but ME Thomas is a sociopath who penned a book and has a blog. I have a visceral reaction to her writing but it was insightful when understanding my ex-husband.
http://www.sociopathworld.com/

Please have no contact with this man. Do not feed the monster– He feeds off of information, verbal and nonverbal.

But above all else, take care and be gentle with yourself.

Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I stumbled across her book at Barnes and Noble (one of the rare occasions I was in a brick and mortar bookstore) and froze in the aisle. I could not put it down.

I also could not bring myself to buy it. On the one hand, it was helpful and interesting to read. On the other hand, it was really disturbing. But hey, I’m an empath, what in the hell do I know?

DoneNow
DoneNow
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

There’s only one other time I can remember feeling so repulsed by someone. He was just out there with all of his superior pathology and didn’t even try to hide it. I was at a service that a friend had arranges for his domestic partner of 15 years who had just committed suicide. For some reason his father, a successful college professor, decided to come to the memorial. When he arrived, he didn’t hug his son or offer condolences. He just turned to him shortly after he got there and said, “Look at all of the pathetic people dining at the trough of their self-serving grief. I think they’re all enjoying it.” He had such a smug look on his face-I will never forget it. After that he left. My friend had a hugely messed up childhood, as you can imagine.

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  DoneNow

That’s just messed up….

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

He was seriously creepy….but sure connected the dots for me. Guess I owe him.

Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
9 years ago
Reply to  Einstein

Einstein– It’s actually a woman. 🙂

DoneNow
DoneNow
9 years ago

Whoa…socipathworld.com. That was enlightening. It’s like trying to explain to a blind person what it would be like to see, or why you would even want to. They’re missing a chip and then try to convince themselves that that makes them special and not disordered. I think I understand the condescension now-big time coping mechanism. And they almost all try to compensate for lack of empathy with intelligence whether they’re actually highly intelligent or not. ‘Cause what other strength do they have to lead with, really? I hope I can learn to sympathize, but they make it so hard!

Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
9 years ago
Reply to  DoneNow

It is like describing sight to a blind person. I don’t even think they are trying to “convince” themselves. As the author states in one section of her blog, which I think was about whether a sociopath can be good or not, that their belief systems are more balanced because they are not altered by emotion.

I used to think my ex was brilliant. That all changed with the divorce. He wasn’t so bright after all. Clever and the ability to ace a multiple choice test equate to a particularly deep intellect.

Jayne
Jayne
9 years ago
Reply to  DoneNow

Ha – my ex sociopath considered himself intellectually elite. I find intelligence extremely attractive – but I was just thinking about this very thing …. apart from being able to regularly beat me at scrabble (competence at conundrum solving?) and a nerdish retention of sporting trivia – I can’t honestly say he showed any above average intelligence in anything! – Certainly he didn’t have enough room in his mind to indulge in self-obsession AND an interest in current affairs, cultural interests, history, geography, science (and all the other Trivial Pursuit cheese wheels :-D) – yet still, he has successfully conned people into believing his portrayal of himself as a great intellect! He won a scholarship to Cambridge university (which he squandered and left after one term – I guess his grandiose delusionment wasn’t enough to kid himself he was capable of being there) but – by God – hasn’t he dined out on that crap for years ever since! Conned me anyway – very impressed and convinced was I, for a very long time!

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

Jayne, my ex is also very, very intelligent, and he knows it. Yet he has had no success whatsoever in his personal life. It’s a weird combination of being highly egotistical and (I suspect) very low self esteem, which he hides from all, including himself.

Sadly, my ex was actually a pretty fascinating person and could be highly motivating to others. He just had a million excuses why nothing ever worked out for him.

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
9 years ago
Reply to  Moving Liquid

Read about “covert narcissism.”

Jayne
Jayne
9 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

I’ battered’ him regularly at Trivial Pursuit 😀

Jayne
Jayne
9 years ago

FL,

I too tangled with a sociopath who told me he’d ‘interfered’ with his sister, though they were both teens, so not exactly children, and he showed absolutely no guilt or remorse – not even pretend! Long story short, even when I tried to name that ‘interference’ as sexual abuse and very possibly having a long term affect on his sister’s mental well-being, he refused to even consider the possibility that what he had done was VERY, VERY WRONG.! And still I took him back after he devastated my life by cheating! I have thought long and hard about why I would continue being involved with someone who was so obviously a sick sociopath and I sincerely think it’s because WE ARE NOT SOCIOPATHS! I used to joke that it would be great if the villains in our lives would only have twirly moustaches and tie us to the tracks, then we’d know they were villains! While intellectually I knew there were evil people out there, if they didn’t have some sort of ‘Mark of Cain’ on their foreheads, I honestly think I believed everyone was a good soul who made mistakes and deserved redemption. I honestly believe, as chumps, it’s that good-hearted fundamental belief that gets us involved and chumped by evil people. Now I know the sharks masquerading as people don’t necessarily have twirly moustaches or marks of Cain on their foreheads. I’m sad to lose the big open-hearted innocent I once was, but I can’t unlearn that shit either. Forward will always be ‘believe what they do, not what they say’. It was a hard lesson but I’m not going to give myself grief for being a chump – it was a beautiful innocence I am proud I had.

I am so sorry you have gone through so much, and I agree, you did the best thing. I am glad he wasn’t there with you at that awful, dreadful time – it’s probable he’d have used it against you and made great sport out of the emotional torture he could put you through.

Hugs and kindest, kindest thoughts to you

Jayne xxx

Nain
Nain
9 years ago

Dear Chump Lady – everyday that I read your blog, I come away with new information, a different perspective, a thread, or a thought that helps all of us understand how similar our situations are even though we are all different.

I have so much respect for the site, for its creator and your continued good work to recognize abuse and find solace in spite of what we’ve experienced. And just when I think I couldn’t find a more valuable resource than Chump Lady, you up the admiration quotient for me even more with the admonishment to us all to accept each other and our journeys. You create a safe haven and teach acceptance with the most consistent message – accept no bullies, in any shape or form. You are brave and honest person.

FL – peace and love to you

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  Nain

Nain, you made me cry. I could not agree more.

Ladywithatruck
Ladywithatruck
9 years ago

Feeling Low, first of all I wish I could give you a great big hug! You did the absolute right thing by not having the baby, please do not ever doubt that. Your counselor was right, for at least the next 18 years you would have had to deal with this soul sucker’s mind games and if your child did not have the disorder, then you would have had to run interference and do damage control because of the child’s father. These people (I use the word “people” loosely because they are fair from what I consider to be a person) have no conscience, no guilt, no remorse. They are pathological liars, if their lips are moving they are lying, about things they don’t even have to lie about.
They have learned to imitate emotions from watching other people and their lives are orchestrated illusions, they morph into the perfect partner for their victim in order to hook them and then the mask drops and the abuse starts. Why? because if they can, in their mind the ability to cause pain proves their power and superiority over the rest of humanity. He would come back just because he was bored and needed to fk with someone’s head and heart and you were handy. They will lay on the tears and say anything to get you back and then loath you for being so stupid to believe their lies. They are pure evil and never change, why would they? they get what they want and God knows they don’t want to feel like we do because people like him use and abuse people like us. He assumes everyone thinks like he does and is out to get him, control him or manipulate him so he operates with a “get them before they get me” attitude.
You are not alone, or stupid, most victims of a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath are intelligent, attractive, self sufficient women with high morals and values, but they are also, kind, forgiving, trusting, honest and compassionate and N’s abuse those traits to the max. One area where the victim fails is they don’t have clear boundaries that they will not compromise and give too many chances.
I did something very similar to you, I had been no contact with my ex for 3 months when he called and was crying because he had been given 6 months to live. He came crying, apologizing for everything he ever did wrong, and begging for another chance because knowing he was dying he had an epiphany and he now knew I was all the woman he would ever need. I thought, who lies about dying?, who would he bother? I had not contacted him, moved on with my life, he was in a different province so I wasn’t handy; it must be love. I found out after I left him 2 years later, after losing everything, that he was living with two other women and had all three of us believing he was in love us. (He was trucking) BTW that was in 2008 and he is still very much alive and destroying a new woman. There is no way a normal person could foresee someone lying like that, not before meeting one of these sickos.
It is really hard to get your head around the truth, but anything loving you saw was an act. stay no contact, not just don’t reply when he contacts you but block any avenue he has to get through to you. Change your number if you have to, block him on all social media, his email, text messages, do not read anything he sends you because he will try everything within his power to get you doubting yourself and to make you feel guilty. You can not give him any little crack to get to you. He will try to get to you through friends, tell the friends you don’t want to hear it and if they can’t abide by your wishes you will have to stop associating with them.
Chump Lady can delete my message I don’t mean to tread on her toes or promote my website, we don’t really offer the same thing but if I am off base Chump Lady my apologies. But Feeling Low, I have a website Ladywithatruck.com where I go into depth about narcissists, why they do what they do and how to heal after being in a relationship with one and offer support. I was with a narcissist 10 years in total and now 3 1/2 yrs out and never been more at peace.
All the best to you, you WILL survive this. You are not alone. Hugs
Carrie

Finecook
Finecook
9 years ago
Reply to  Ladywithatruck

I think I found Chumplady.com from ladywithatruck.com! Both are incredibly insightful, valuable sites needed for healing!

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Ladywithatruck

Your THAT Ladywithatruck?? I love your website. 🙂

Ladywithatruck
Ladywithatruck
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

LovedaJackass, LOL yeah THAT Ladywithatruck!! I always like to hear someone likes my site. 🙂

Ladywithatruck
Ladywithatruck
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Chump Lady, you know I always laugh at the spell casters who offer to help you get back your ex. NO!! shit, it took me forever to get rid of him, don’t you dare bring him back!! Wrong blog to be flogging that shit!!
Thanks CL I prefer to not think of myself as a whore, LOL after all its been so long I’m a virgin again. just kidding…… kinda LOL

Rose
Rose
9 years ago

Feeling Low- tons (tons tons tons) of us on here were cheated on either pregnant or with newborns. [plus- although we often hash out Celebrity cheating on this site no one has mentioned Hank and Kendra. He cheated on her when she was pregnant WITH A MAN WITH BOOBS. That’s right, a pre-op trans woman still flying the winky flag. He cheated on her with an alternative gender.] It is really normal. Hugely tragic and not taken seriously at all by the RIC, who go on and on about how normal it is, statistically. Well, maybe it is, it’s still heartrending.

My X also confided to me that he dreamed of killing people many times, and that he fantasized about it and seriously considered taking up the life of a hit-man, because he knew he was without any kind of remorse. Yes. You are not alone. In the fantasy of him living the life of a hit-man, my son and I were going to live in a villa in South America and he would visit us. Between murders. Yup. Can’t make this stuff up.

jinx
jinx
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

“My X also confided to me that he dreamed of killing people many times, and that he fantasized about it and seriously considered taking up the life of a hit-man, because he knew he was without any kind of remorse. Yes. You are not alone. In the fantasy of him living the life of a hit-man, my son and I were going to live in a villa in South America and he would visit us. Between murders. Yup. Can’t make this stuff up.”

That’s one sick crazy dude.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

Eh, I don’t know that it matters who he cheated with. He’s still a cheating fuck regardless of who it was with. To be honest, I’d almost feel better if my X cheated with the same sex, at least then I could say to myself, “Well fuck I obviously can’t compete with that.” Know what I mean?

I guess it doesn’t matter. I’m sure the people who have had this happen to them don’t feel better about it either. It all pretty much sucks.

namedforvera
namedforvera
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

agreed. Plus– what about emotional affairs. who the hell knows who’s on the other end of the video/phone/whatever. and does it matter? no, it does not.
Point is, our partners are connecting in intimate ways with others– that’s really out of bounds in a purportedly committed relationship.

I always think it’s the lies that are the worst. Any kind of Queer phobia does take away the awfulness of that. My $ .02

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Them actually having sex with someone isn’t even the worst part. It’s the frigging emotional abuse they dump on you so that they CAN screw somebody else.

By the way, Kitty (nice name, my kitty is named “kitty”)…..you make an excellent point – that would have been better than feeling less than Skankalina.

This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
9 years ago
Reply to  Einstein

“Them actually having sex with someone isn’t even the worst part. It’s the frigging emotional abuse they dump on you so that they CAN screw somebody else.
By the way, Kitty (nice name, my kitty is named “kitty”)…..you make an excellent point – that would have been better than feeling less than Skankalina.”

Very true. It might damage the ego less. But I don’t think it’s any less painful. Finding out that my ex was so um….active in so many truly effed up activities did cause a higher creep out factor for me. But I think that was discrepancy between who he presented and who he truly was at his core. For a while I think I felt the way that women who discover their husbands are murderers must feel. There wasn’t just a whole hidden relationship but a hidden very very gross lifestyle. Once again though…not any more painful that what anyone else suffering from infidelity has experienced though. Maybe just a different kind of horror.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

I fail to understand why the AP being trans has any bearing on how fucked up a cheater is, there is nothing wrong with a person changing their body to align with their gender identification. I personally find your description of the woman pretty offensive.

Rose
Rose
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Oh Brother. People on here jump all over each other all the time. Some of you are just as bad as the people you complain about.

You know what? Sometimes people accuse Chump Lady of inciting hatred and riling people up. I do not think that is true. But I do think there are a lot of people on here who jump on each other for no good reason. Seriously- are you telling me you wouldn’t be absolutely shocked to find out that your X cheated with their own gender when you thought they were hetero? So, not only that he’s cheating, apparently he’s bi? I think any reasonable person would consider that shocking to find out. I’m not posting on Chump Nation any more- I do not think we are very supportive of one another. I think you both are petty and dishonest if you say you wouldn’t be surprised if your X cheated with a same-sex partner if they’d been hetero to your knowledge. This blog is supposed to be about people who’ve been cheated on, not people who are self-righteous.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

Would I be “absolutely shocked” if my wife had cheated with a woman rather than a man, seeing that I have always thought she was heterosexual? I can honestly say I wouldn’t be.Of course I’d be a little surprised, but the cheating is what would get me. I’ve always assumed my wife’s picture of what is attractive resembled me to some degree, and as it turns out her AP has the same sort of genitals as I do but otherwise barely resembles me. That was surprising, but it is what the cheating and lying and mental cruelty after disclosure that got me.

I would be more shocked if she cheated on me with a pre-op trans man, for sure, but mostly because she would really have had to look for one, as I assume Hank (and btw who the hell ARE these people?) searched out his fuckbuddy. That’s not her style (he said, fingers crossed). I guess you’ll have to take my word fir it that I’m being honest. But am I being petty? How, exactly?

Louise
Louise
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

Rose, it can get harsh around here at times. There are so many people with differing points of view. I fully support gay/transgender rights, but understand your point that it must have been shocking for that young woman to discover her husband had been with a pre-operative transgender. When it comes to comments and responses, a little kindness goes a long way, because aren’t we here to help one another? To me, that is one of the best gifts CL has given us; it is up to us collectively to treat one another with respect, even when we disagree about something.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  Louise

Agreed. I would hate for Rose to stop coming to CL.

jinx
jinx
9 years ago
Reply to  Moving Liquid

I agree. I’ve seen some remarks that can be taken as racist but I have a thick skin and understand people’s pain and what comes out during their grief. My stbx was a closet racist, hated fat women, and short women. His OW suffered with dwarfism, was of this race and fat. His activity of choice beside screwing was eating out and stuffing her face. Upon d-day my description of this trollup was NOT politically correct at all! But I was hurt and people in this situation aren’t thinking straight. For a month afterward it seemed a little person’s convention came to town . I was triggering all over the place. I never had this issue before but thank God, I have moved past it.

STBX is an idiot. She was just the flavor of the month.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  jinx

jinx, that was so well put. I understand that what Rose said was “technically” wrong, but it was said with raw emotion. I wish that we chumps could have been more gentle with her when enlightening her about her insensitivity. At this point there’s so much anger I don’t think she’ll come back. A shame, because this place is a godsend. I’d be lost without it so I don’t want anyone who needs this place to lose it.

Kara
Kara
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

Rose, all I hear is you being butthurt because you said something really bigoted and got called out on it.

It doesn’t matter that the AP is trans. That has no bearing on it. What matters is he was a cheater and she was an AP. That cuts across gender identity. Pointing out that the AP is trans is putting aside what actually matters and placing anger where it doesn’t belong.

People here are VERY supportive of each other. I’ve had plenty of support from everyone here, and I’ve seen others receive and be very grateful for support they’ve received. If you think this is an unsupportive board, then you probably haven’t been paying much attention to the comments that come from CL’s posts and I would wager that the problem is not a lack of support from others, but rather you.

I agree with Dat. I call prejudice when I see it. And if you really think that calling out bigotry makes us “as bad as the people who cheated on us” then I think it’s a good idea you’re flouncing. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

And since I’m SURE you’re wondering, yes, my ex DID cheat on me with someone of the same sex. And no, that’s not what pissed me off the most. (I actually LAUGHED.) It was the ho-bag he knocked up.

And btw, a trans woman is a woman. So your ex is not “bi.” In order to think that, you have to subscribe to the idea that trans women are not real women. Do yourself a favor after you’ve left and learn a little bit about gender identity.

This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

If I may put my two cents in. The pain we experience is not changed depending on the gender identity of the person or persons our cheater’s cheated on us with but I do get a far more visceral reaction from others when I tell them that my ex was answering sex ads for both men and women then I would if I said “Oh, my ex fell in love with another woman”. It’s not because there’s something wrong with bisexuality although I seriously doubt my ex could fall into that category, it’s because the acceptable STORY of cheaterhood and affairs typically involves heterosexual infidelity. I’m not saying that’s an accurate representation at all (and please don’t go after me about gay cheaters….I totally know it’s just as common )but it’s less likely to raise eyebrows than it coming to light that someone’s partner who has previously identified as straight now has a same sex affair partner. And yes, I know a trans woman is a woman. I can’t imagine being stuck in the wrong gendered body and the journey it takes to have your outside reflect your identity inside. However…I don’t think it’s totally out of line to say that a famous man having a relationship with a person who still physically has the male parts isn’t going to raise a few eyebrows and score higher on the strange meter. It has nothing to do with the true gender of the woman in question but rather how common that sort of thing becomes public. And please forgive me if I have said anything ignorant. I have known people in the past who are transgendered but I’ve never been closely involved. I am however 100% supportive of their journey. I think perhaps some of the wording could have been stated differently but I get what she was saying about shock value… respectfully to you all of course. Dat I really respect your opinion all though we have differed in the past on such things as porn 😉 but I always value your input. ANR I hope you still feel safe. I just think that if someone disagrees or sees ignorance that unless that person is a cheater we could maybe be a tiny bit gentler. We have been a bit riled up lately. Oh, and just so everyone knows I’m a regular poster but my name is changed because I think my ex may be lurking. I might just be paranoid, but I’m being cautious for the moment.

Btw. I also think that it doesn’t hurt any less or come with any more solace if you find out your husband or wife is cheating with the same gender. It still equals a complete loss of the life you thought you had with that person and turns your history into lies. I think the betrayal is equal. And for me finding out that my very vehemently straight husband was getting blowjobs from men is exactly what made me realize just how fucked up he was and it slammed the door on me ever wanting contact with him. But that has nothing to do with me being anti gay or even anti blowjob.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago

Chump with the long temporary handle: I do still feel safe here. I don’t assume, here or anywhere, that nobody has a problem with my being gay but if they treat me as a person and don’t insult me they can think whatever they want as far as I’m concerned.

You (and Louise) are right — we need to treat one another with respect and gentleness here. For the most part we do, but of course we don’t always. I’m looking at my own posts here, though, and honestly I don’t regret what I said, and don’t find it disrespectful.

This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
9 years ago
Reply to  ANR

Chump with the long temporary handle: ROFL….I was thinking of being “Deep thoughts by Jackie Handy” a la Will Ferrel with a female twist. But the topic was so serious today. I just hate for any chump to lose the support that this blog can be. It’s been a true lifesaver for me and I would be very sad to feel turned on. Erm…I mean like people had turned on me. Lol. Being turned on is certainly not the topic here typically. We may not all be perfect but we have all suffered a horrendous thing and it does not matter what our beliefs outside these posts are as long as we are not being INTENTIONALLY hateful. Which I know is basically what you were saying. And of course CL has the final say on what is appropriate and what is not as per her note to readers today.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Well said, Kara (and Dat, too). A related point is that, like anyone else, trans women can be cheated on. Imagine coming here for support and finding mindless hatred. Would you stay? Would you stay among people who tolerated someone saying things about you that might as well be said by someone throwing a bottle at you from a speeding car? I wouldn’t. I’m a gay man (though married to a woman … long story I’ve posted about) and I find it hard to find entirely safe places for support ..but my woes are nothing compared to what trans people face.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  ANR

Appreciate you and Kara getting it. I honestly don’t think Rose understands that it isn’t the “shock” but the denigrating and derogatory remarks that caused us to object to the post.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Rose

Rose, you think what you want, I do not jump on people, I can not remain silent when I see prejudice. I do not feel comfortable when someone makes bigoted and insulting remarks about someone’s gender identity, end of story. I am not going to make any attempt to educate you on why the remarks were offensive and uncalled for. I doubt it would do any good and this is not the forum for it. Suffice to say the persons spouse was not bi.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Damn iPad, posted to soon. if what you related had happened to YOU rather than some celeb I might have said it more gently, understanding your pain might have bearing on your language, hoping that was what caused it rather than bigotry. I would still have posted it.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Glad I’m not the only one, DDW. The problem with the cheater is that he’s a cheater. The problem with the trans AP is that she’s an AP.

kb
kb
9 years ago

FL:

My heart goes out to you! What a terrible choice to make!

Trust that your Ex partner sucks. Do not worry about why he is the way he is. He is sick, sick, SICK!

This is a man who told you that he touched his sister sexually when he was a child. I would never, EVER trust this man around a child. Ever! But no court would ever award sole custody based on this kind of say-so. If, when he was a child, he was naive and touching his sister before he knew that touching was wrong (and he’d have to be very, very young), then that’s one thing. But for him to bring it up as an adult, as a delicious secret to share with you–that is sick and shows a love and longing for forbidden fruit–including incest with young girls.

Ugh.

And yes, telling you all these deep dark secrets means he was grooming you, seeing just how far he could go without disgusting you.

Take time to heal, both physically and emotionally. Keep seeing your therapist.

You will survive. And when you have healed, you will learn to thrive.

nic
nic
9 years ago
Reply to  kb

I had to make a decision about abortion as well a few years back. I told one person beside my husband because it’s so personal and painful. Be kind to yourself – it was terribly traumatic for me and still makes me cry even though at the time I would have driven anywhere in the world to have it done. Just because it was the right decision doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt you to your core. It’s not an easy choice, and no one is ever pro-abortion, but I’m glad you and I had it as a safe option and that it was our choice to make.

You’re a strong woman and you’re going to be fine. Please know that there are a lot of hands out here to hold you and pat your pat and hug you in chump land, and you’ll need them all – you’ve endured a lot.

Lisa in Joisey
Lisa in Joisey
9 years ago

Feeling Low:

I am so sorry for what you have been through. Thank GOD you are seeing a therapist. I know you must feel awful for having to terminate your pregnancy. Take it from someone who had three pregnancies, and two kids: raising kids with a fucktard is so much worse! God bless you, and here’s to a much better future! Always remember how mighty you are!

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
9 years ago

Feeling Low, I am glad you wrote Chump Lady for insight and support. I hope you continue to reach out to people who will lift you up. Most importantly, I hope you feel low only because you have reached the hardest part of your experience and, that having found the strength and courage to make such a difficult decision, each step ahead will be clearer and easier and bring you to a place of peace and joy.

ANC
ANC
9 years ago

I am so sorry.

What a wicked person. You found the right place to vent and grieve. Big hug.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago

FL, massive Jedi Hugs to you. Don’t try too long or too hard to understand him. Keep doing therapy and learning to understand you. Don’t blame yourself too much, learn to get rid of the woulda, shoulda, coulda past blame, and move on to will, shall and can for your present.

LJC
LJC
9 years ago

What a horrible life experience. Please, please do get some professional help, with a therapist who recognizes this kind of personality disorder. Yes, like CL says, your picker needs adjusting. Mine does to. Hugs to you. I agree with CL, the abortion was the right thing to do. I applaud CL for making her beliefs known and taking a stand regarding the activity on her site. Well done!

Thewatcher
Thewatcher
9 years ago

Guess what sociopaths do to women who get pregnant. They kill them! Scott Peterson is a prime example. You dodged a bullet, literally!

MFIM
MFIM
9 years ago

Feeling Low, even Ted Bundy came in a nicely wrapped package! Be kind to yourself, sending you hugs and blessings!

ThatGirl
ThatGirl
9 years ago

CL – thank you for that message on the bottom. This blog is truly a safe place.

Feeling Low – don’t beat yourself up over this. You did the right thing. Signing yourself and a child up for a lifetime of abuse was not in the best interest of either of you.

You were able to escape with a clean break. Be thankful for that and be kind to yourself. In time you will see that this was the best option of what was available to you.

FLBright
FLBright
9 years ago

Chump Lady – Your “readers note” reminded me of first finding your site and reading the “About Chump Lady” section where you describe that you’re the friend that will be there at 3AM and pour you a bowl of raisin bran and advise you to leave, etc…! And also reminded me of your very helpful post to me about the appropriate response a mother should have to protect her baby. You’ve got our back and, my God, there were days early on when I felt like you and the amazing chump nation where the only ones there to dust me off and put me back on my feet.

Feeling Low – You’re courage is palpable. It might be hard for you to see or feel your strength right now. But, look how many of us here can see it/feel it. You’re going to be ok. Big Hugs.

namedforvera
namedforvera
9 years ago

Dear Feeling Low– so much support and compassion here. None of this is your fault–as CL says so well, you got stuck with a sociopath. They hide so well among the real people. (The better to feed on us, far as I can tell). I offer you so much heartfelt support for all that you have been through. Your are one brave lady, and a smart one, to make the choices you have done, and find an obviously insightful therapist, and follow through on rebuilding your life after tangling with one of these–somebody here calls them hyenas?? — it’s a perfect descriptor (except I kinda like hyenas–the females are badass. But I digress…)

I just wanted to offer a shoutout to CL for her timely and enriching wisdom–as always!, welcome you to the subshop where we all get to order shit sandwiches :/ and tell you I think you’ve already done so much good stuff for yourself you are an amazing strong woman and are going to be fine.

Babushka
Babushka
9 years ago

FeelingLow I am so very sorry. You’ve been put through hell. Please be kind to yourself. You absolutely did the right thing. I understand and completely support your decision.

Sending you love and compassion and many, many hugs, my dear.

Patsy
Patsy
9 years ago

FL – even before I got to CL’s answer I thought sociopath.

And you did the right thing.

Hugs,

Chumpguy
Chumpguy
9 years ago

Feeling Low,

Can’t say anything as eloquently as the post and all these comments have already said, but you have my most profound sympathy and respect. It’s hard enough to be chumped, but then to face a dark decision that I cannot even imagine – and you had the presence of mind and guts to think it out and make an incredibly brave, difficult, and unselfish choice. Be proud and stand tall.

AnnieW56
AnnieW56
9 years ago

Feeling Low, I am so sorry for the pain you must be feeling right now. Please don’t be too hard on yourself. We want the person we have chosen to be an upstanding citizen, we want to believe the best of them, we want to believe in the dream that people can change. Problem is, these people can’t. Oh, they spout the right words and act the right way … for a time, but, inevitably, they revert back. This is who they are. I truly believe, once a cheater, always a cheater.

Why did he tell you these things? Shock value. Are they true? Who knows. They could be and then again, maybe not. He’s a liar. My XH was a liar. My motto became, “believe half of what you see and 1/4 of what you hear.” If they were true, I’m willing to bet there was much more that he wasn’t telling you.

Be glad that you have run away from this madness. Continue with your therapist. And, don’t EVER read another email, answer a call or see this man ever again. No matter what he says, he will never change…no contact is the best way to go.

fiestypants
fiestypants
9 years ago

Thank you CL for putting the note at the bottom. FL, I didn’t have the exact circumstance you did, and I cancelled the abortion appointment I had set up, but I understand the torture of the decision. No decision in that circumstance is easy. It’s a buffet of bad options when pregnancy doesn’t mean the happy family it’s supposed to. I love my daughter, but I was hoping so hard my pregnancy would just naturally abort and it took years to forgive myself that I was even pregnant in the first place. It will take time, a lot of hard honesty and a lot of tears, but you will pull through it. I’m crying all over again, I feel your pain, I really do. You will never find any snarkiness from me on this, ever. ((((HUGS))))

On another note, you wrote “He told me things about himself that I know he has never told anyone, such as touching his younger sister sexually when they were children, loving the ability to deceive people through lies as a kid, and having dark thoughts of harming people.” ……..hun the tornado sirens are going off and not shutting off. Do you know his sister? He basically just said he sexually molested his sister as a child…God knows what kind of hell she’s probably going/been through because of that. I haven’t read any of the Sociopath books, but my husband has and all I can think of is how there’s gotta chapters that use that douche bag of a guy as the character in question. RUN! Don’t walk. RUN, as fast you can, away from that guy.

Dan
Dan
9 years ago
Reply to  fiestypants

STRONGLY AGREE. Get away and stay away from this predictor. FL seemed to have the right initial instincts but needs to believe deep down that he’s who he’s says he is… a bent person. It’s hard to maintain that conviction of a gut judgement… especially when you’ve been isolated from common opinion like support groups, friends, and family. When we put these things out in the world…the stink is easy to smell.

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  Dan

“common opinion like support groups, friends, and family. When we put these things out in the world…the stink is easy to smell”

So true. It’s places like this where we begin to understand that these people are actually out there, and how alike they are, and how predictable they are. It allows you to advance from those “gut instincts” (which are so easy to second guess) into SEEING that this is real..and it is really happening. So crucial to accepting the situation, and extricating ourselves from it.

Dan
Dan
9 years ago
Reply to  Einstein

Ya Einstein, I just wished I clued into that truth 9 years ago. I kept it all inside. This blog has saved me in many ways. Most of all it brought me back to friends and family by giving me language and perspective to express the loss of chump-innocence.

Chumpguy
Chumpguy
9 years ago

On a lighter note, the word hyena seems very appropriate. I keep visualizing Life of Pi and some of those Nature Channel specials.

Back in the good old days, one day my wife and I took a wildife tour out west. Our guide pointed out a coyote,and she then explained to us that coyotes were considered “kind of the scumbags” of the animal world out there for their sneaky, scavenging ways. I kind of like that name tag also. They seem a cut or two below hyenas.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpguy

Noooo, coyotes are at least pretty. Hyena’s look like they’re up to no good. lol

Patsy
Patsy
9 years ago

Best book in the world for you: ‘The Sociopath Next Door’ by Martha Stout.

She says: everyone think sociopaths are axe murders in jail but they are not. Most of them are smart enough to figure out jail isn’t a good place, and they are alive and well and living near you. That you can tell a sociopath by the trail of hurt and destruction they leave behind them.

This book will comfort you.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Patsy

“That you can tell a sociopath by the trail of hurt and destruction they leave behind them.” I wasn’t going to read this book until I read this, but that’s pretty descriptive of my X. Past history of tearing lives apart . . . but it wasn’t his fault don’t cha know.

ThatGirl
ThatGirl
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Yep same here too.

Ex h had a scar on his leg from where an ex girlfriend stabbed him. He dismissed it as nothing, and SHE was crazy. Uh huh. Now I know how she got that way.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

the Jackass, too…

NAWSbrat
NAWSbrat
9 years ago

FeelingLow, so much of what you wrote is what happened to me. We’d break up…he’d just want to be “friends.” Just want to come by and “see me.” Write to me sometimes, send cards in the mail, etc. It was a way to keep one foot in the door. We were dating and not dating for 5 years. Yo-yoing up and down. It was a way for him to keep me off balance. “Oh, but we aren’t *really* dating. We’re just friends.” He avoided outright commitment at all costs. Testing commitment perhaps? Until it was inconvenient, and he found a new woman to bed.

The strongest day of my life was after a year of “no contact.” My daughter and I ran into him at the mall. We chatted and then he asked, “So, can I call you sometime?” I looked him dead in the eye and said, “Nope.” and walked away. I was done with the instability and manipulation. D O N E.

And my daughter cheered me on with an “All right, mom!”

AnnieW56
AnnieW56
9 years ago
Reply to  NAWSbrat

Way to go NAWSbrat! Liberation plus!

nic
nic
9 years ago
Reply to  AnnieW56

a good friend of mine ran into a mutual friend of ours who had been horribly mean to both of us, among others. When the nasty bitch said, “it’s so good to see you, we should have coffee some time and really catch up”, my brilliant pal replied, “we should be polite to one another but I don’t really ever see the point in having coffee together”. I always thought it was a classy response that put her directly in her place.

Dan
Dan
9 years ago

I just finished reading FL’s post and haven’t the time (I’m at work) to fully read your response. I just wanted to react immediately with a sobbing, heartfelt, text-hug to this beautiful wounded soul. I cried with both compassion and anger on her behalf.

I’ll collect some thoughts later, but for now… pass onto to her the nation’s love and support.

FL, you’ve come to the right place. 🙂

Verity297
Verity297
9 years ago

FL

We may be anonymous but please add my love and support to that which has already been so eloquently expressed by so many others.
Sending you strength and love right now x

Syringa
Syringa
9 years ago

Feeling Low, I’m so sorry for everything that you have endured but please rest assured that you made the right decision for you.
Forty some years ago (before abortion was legal) I was a young teen and got pregnant by a sociopathic fuctard and guess what? I’m still in therapy to this day because this child grew up with the same personality disorders. She has absolutely broken my heart a million times over. He never gave me a dime in child support, denied paternity and tried to kill me when I was three months pregnant. My parents sent me to live in an unwed mother’s home. I insisted on keeping my baby. I married a nice man (not the cheater) who adopted her and gave her a stable home with lots of love. She turned out exactly like her biological father who she never spent a minute with. Really weird for sure. Back in those days we never thought about things like that being genetic. We thought ‘love could conquer all.’

Don’t look back Feeling Low….just forward!

Syringa
Syringa
9 years ago
Reply to  Syringa

One more thing Feeling Low I should have added. Twenty years later my birth control failed and I found myself facing a very unwanted pregnancy and that time I had a choice in the matter and I chose to have an abortion.
So I have been faced with both ‘choices’ and you can guess which one bothers me the most after all these years.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Syringa

Arrrgh! Sorry Syringa. 🙁 From what you were saying before, she sounds utterly delightful. I know how hard that must be when it’s your child. Sigh.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

There’s an interesting book by child psychologist/best-selling novelist Jonathan Kellerman (“Why Kids Kill” is the title, if I recall correctly) about the question of psychopathy and nature vs. nurture. He wrote it in response to the increase of school shooting incident prior to Columbine. As might be expected, he saw both genetics and environment as “causes” but he talked about a number of cases where the child raised in a loving home had signs of psychopathy from a very early age.

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago
Reply to  Syringa

Hugs, honey. That’s got to be tough!

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  Syringa

Oh, that’s rough, Syringa. Big hugs from Canada!

Einstein
Einstein
9 years ago

FL,

Another great resource that can give you some insight on who/what you were dealing with: http://www.manipulative-people.com

Sunlightinthegarden
Sunlightinthegarden
9 years ago

I love this site and how no-nonsense this blog is.

Chump Princess
Chump Princess
9 years ago

Feeling Low,

I admire your wisdom and your strength and your ability to do one of the most difficult things you may ever have to do. (((HUGS))) It is never an easy decision to end a pregnancy for any reason. Treat yourself kindly.

As far as that – I can’t think of a name foul enough to call him, and that’s saying something – let’s just call him shit-covered pig beast from hell, there was no way for you to know what you now know until you knew it. I don’t know too many people who get involved with and fall in love with someone wanting to believe the worst about them. I always tell people and you cannot and do not try to understand crazy. If you actually understand crazy, that probably means you’re crazy.

This guy is a sick, twisted, conscienceless and abusive piece of shit – and that is all he is capable of being. There is no there, there. There is no way, with the information most of have, to initially recognize people like this in our lives. It is only in the aftermath that we gain the wisdom that hopefully protects in the future. God and the Universe in their infinite wisdom have blessed you and removed this pond scum from your life. That was a gift. Do not try to ever pick up something that God and the Universe have told you to put down. You have, hopefully, just experienced one of the worst things you will ever experience, and while it has been painful, you have survived. You have strength that you do not even know you possess. I am sorry that you had to make the choice you made concerning the baby, but it was for the best. Imagine the abuse he would have been able to heap upon a dependent and defenseless child. May you find peace with your decision, knowing in your heart it was for the best.

CL,

You have the wisdom of a sage and the mouth (pen/computer) of an oracle. Thank God for you and Thank God for the gift of this space that you have created as a safe place for those of us who needed just this place of safety. Thank you, as well, for fearlessly and courageously standing guard over this space and protecting the voices and feelings of those who come here. You are a gift.

Dark Horse
Dark Horse
9 years ago

You, are a wonderful, warm hearted, trusting soul who does not deserve any of this.

He, is a shameful, toxic, waste of space.

I don’t think you will ever understand who he is, or what drove him to behave in this appalling manner. You are hurting desperately now, but just think of every person commenting here sending you supportive vibes.

NEVER, EVER, think that you ‘bought this on yourself’ or in anyway deserved it.

I’ll be thinking of you over the coming weeks, sending healing vibes and wishing you strength.

Dark Horse. xx

Dan
Dan
9 years ago

Just finished ChumpLady’s response. Words of Gold:

“Before you forgive yourself for being chumped by a con (and do forgive yourself), first take a hard, unvarnished look at your chumpiness and work on that.”

Welcome to a very distinguished club…we’ve all been fooled by a cheater…and some of us cheated on many times…and it’s pretty common to take on guilt and even anger at ourselves. It will come but let it come to pass.

BTW, I too reflect that sentiment that you’ve done the most loving and caring thing by your difficult choice. I actually can’t believe what a strong and wise thing you did.

You’ve been hit by a rather big truck. Not your fault.

Rebuild, heal, move on.

bogie
bogie
9 years ago

Feeling Low – I’m not good with words, but wanted you to know that your decision was obviously very painful to make. I am so glad you had a therapist to turn to to help you talk it out and come to the decision that was right for you and your circumstances. Thank goodness I never had that type of choice, I was going crazy just trying to deal with the rest of the stuff – I can’t even imagine having that thrown in the mix.

Good luck with your healing and I hope you can take a bit of comfort in the kindness of all the people on this site!

This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
9 years ago

Wow. Oh wow. I’m crying. I’m crying for you FL. I’m crying because of the true compassion of CL and chump nation and how incredibly humble and blessed it makes me feel. And I’m crying for Tracy who even though I know has moved onto better things lost the chance for more kids.

FL. One of the surest signs that you’re around someone who is soul sick is that you end up repeatedly in situations where there are no good options, only the decision between awful and painful. I am sooooooo so sorry you had to be in that awful position. I was pregnant when I found about the cheating. But when I found out my ex was also a narc addict I was horrified to think that my child would possibly inherit such traits especially since my ex’s dad was also a cheater addict who committed suicide.I coudn’t imagine being tied to such an awful man through a kid. I very seriously considered not keeping my child and actually went as far as scheduling. In these situations there is no good decision only the right decision for you. I know the soul searching it takes to make that decision either way. These men are very very good at what they do. And really they’re probably the closest thing I can imagine to a demon. You didn’t do anything to ask for that. It’s not your fault. Datdamwuf has it straight when she talks about how insidious they are. Much much love to you.

And much love to chump nation. Seriously, Tracy and those on this blog, I heart you big time!

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago

Hey no crying. I hate when you guys do that. 🙁 Everything will be fine. You’ll get there.

ANR
ANR
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Crying’s not so bad, Rumblekitty. It can be a huge help sometimes, I think.

This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
This chump's name changed to protect the innocent (for now)
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Thanks Dat. No, it’s ok. I was crying for Feeling Low. That’s such a hard thing to go through. And I can relate to CL about having another child. I very likely have also given my cheater ex the last of my fertility. I think sometimes we see CL as so strong and far beyond her cheater experience that we forget how truly painful her experience was. I just mean that sometimes a bit CL shares makes me feel empathy for her. She’s like Wonder Woman! But still a woman ya know? And also the outpouring today really touched me.

In a lot of ways I am way past the pain of things. Right now I’m just going through the motions of dealing with the official stuff. My ex is trying to reduce child support to such a small amount in comparison to his earnings. Part of me is detached and just simply accepts that he’s an asshole. But it’s all part of a process. And even though I don’t fully identify with being a victim anymore…well we’re just not done enough officially for me to say that he doesn’t affect me anymore.

Btw. I’m pretty sure even Wonder Woman would fall for a really sparkly narc. You know, but at least if she got suspicious she has her lasso of truth. CL has a lasso like that. Well, she can’t make liars tell the truth but she certainly puts it out there.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago

Jedi hugs

NorthernLight
NorthernLight
9 years ago

FL, I am so sorry you have been through such a horrible situation. I wish you healing and peace as you recover. A much brighter future is ahead for you…

nomar
nomar
9 years ago

Nothing of substance to add here, FL. Just thoughts and prayers going out across the tangled wires of the Internet in your direction. Though you feel alone, you have us at your side. Though you feel hopeless, you have better days ahead. Though you feel low, you are mighty.

Witty29
Witty29
9 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Oh this just made my eyes well up.

Beautiful.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  nomar

So sweet.

thensome
thensome
9 years ago
Reply to  Moving Liquid

That’s really lovely Nomar.

FL, I wish you the best during this awful time. I can’t imagine what you have been through and the difficult decisions you’ve had to make. I wish you blessings and peace.

FeralBlue
FeralBlue
9 years ago

First, i am so sorry that you had to go through all of that. From the excitement of being pregnant, to the realization of what life would be like with him as the father, to the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make. They’re all right though. He told you who he was and he will never change. You are well rid of him. He would only continue to cause you pain.

My ExH and I had been trying for a few months when Dday hit. I had been excited to see the pregnancy test results as I was a week late. Then Dday and the shock and the horror and the heartbreak. That drop from excitement from a possible positive to thanking every deity i could think of that the results were negative. Especially when I found out he and OW were also trying to get pregnant.

My heart goes out to you. Take care of yourself in these coming days. We’re here for you.