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What Would You Do If You Got This Letter?

Yesterday, on my Chump Lady Facebook page, I received a message from a woman who’d gotten an anonymous message informing her that her husband was cheating.

What would you do if you got this letter? (Names changed for anonymity.)

Dear (Chump),

Your new husband, (Alleged Douchebag) has ALWAYS cheated on you. He has had sex with other woman the entire time he has been with you. DO NOT ignore the signs, the signs are there. There is a reason why he is not friends with you on his personal Facebook account, there is a reason why he never changed his profile picture (to a wedding picture or a picture with you), there is a reason why there is a password on his cell phone, there is a reason why YOUR first name is not on his phone, but your middle name is. He is a pathological liar and a serial cheater. His family and friends know of his mistress or mistresses. DO NOT ignore the signs. He is making a fool out of you.


The person did google Chump Lady, because she reached out. I told her that I knew nothing about the letter, but I run a popular infidelity blog. I was very sorry she was going through this, and I suspect that an OW wrote it because of the rather mean-spirited tone. I also added that unfortunately, in my experience, and that of my readers, people don’t get letters like that unless there is some truth in them.

I advised her not to tell her husband of the message, and just do some snooping for evidence. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

She replied very politely that she didn’t need my condolences or concerns, because her marriage was fine and she trusted her new husband implicitly. She wasn’t going to snoop.

I pushed back on that (I probably should’ve shut up, said my husband), and encouraged her to please look into it as she could save herself the sunk costs of bigger heartache later. I know from painful experience (my D-Day was as a newlywed too).

She furthered reassured me nothing was wrong. Her gut feelings weren’t bothering her, she was fine.

I assume she just googled me because maybe she thought I knew who wrote the letter. Although she didn’t ask me that directly.

The thing is, I get a TON of letters from affair partners asking me (after the affair has ended, of course) if they should tell the chump. Often the OP was chumped as well (really guys, that happens). The guy presented himself as single and then pretty quickly it’s discovered he is not. (Generally, men don’t write to me as affair partners. Occasionally, but mostly it’s women in this dilemma.)

My advice is usually always to tell. We’ve gone over this a lot here — wouldn’t YOU want to know? Do unto others… etc.

The only time I temper that advice is if the person is scary, has made physical threats, and would do major harm to the OP for telling. Then my advice is go NC.

Affair partners — if you’re reading this — and you want to tell a chump about cheating?

1. Give EVIDENCE. Why should this person believe an anonymous note?

2. Have the guts to tell them your name. If you cheated, own up to it. If you were chumped, what’s the shame in giving the other chump your name? We tend to believe people who honestly present themselves.

3. Answer questions. They sure as hell aren’t going to get the information from the cheater. Offer to answer questions, and then bow out and go NC for everyone’s sanity.

The problem with anonymous notes like the above is — while if this woman is truly a chump, it may prick her conscious — it’s too easy to write the note taker off as a vicious loon. And face it, many of us have been the target of some disordered person’s smear campaign — we know that people can make up lies for the sicko pleasure of it. But who is a chump going to believe? An anonymous stranger? Or their loved one?

Don’t be half-assed about disclosure.

Sure, there is a very good chance that the chump is going to spackle and deny. But there’s much less chance of that, if you’re a witness to what happened and you’ve got evidence of it. (Then they can spackle the affair, but not deny it… oh, chumps!)

Did you ever get a letter like this? What would you do?

Ask Chump Lady

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  • I would probably simply ask to see his phone. If you are married there really is no reason why he would say no other than that he has something to hide. I discovered my partners infidelity when I saw her Twitter feed and then emails from the house laptop.

    • that does not work. My married bf will never get caught because he is so careful. His wife can look at his phone all she wants, and he is so crafty she would never know. The “obvious” signs you read everywhere about how to tell if someone is cheating, are all false, anyone with half a brain can work around them so you have ZERO idea. That’s the sad part. I wish she would catch him, but she has zero chance of it.

      • Hmmm. This sounds very familiar. There was never any hard evidence, never a letter, just that gnawing feeling that something was going on. It made me feel like I was losing my mind. Was I just insecure, jealous, etc. as he stated?

        I can say this – my gut instinct was screaming and I didn’t ignore it, but I couldn’t find anything solid. Living that tore me apart, left me shaky and unsure about everything. I’m sure the damage that particular form of mindfuckery caused never made a blip on his radar. Fuuuuuuck him.

        If-only, is that your married boyfriend or best friend? You could always write a letter, but the one CL posted above was snarky, snark snark. Sounded like a bitter OW to me. “He’s making a fool of you” is a slap in the face. What is she supposed to do with that, besides feel like a piece of shit? Thank you, I’ll have more please? Thanks, CL, good blog.

  • I never got a letter, but Oh, how I wished I had gotten a letter like that. I was so blind. No – I trusted completely – after all, she was my “friend” 20 yrs younger, recently married, 2 ft. taller than my STBXH, and he was home every night for dinner (except right before D-DAY), never slept a night away – we went everywhere together, except he was screwing her at work. Would would thought, such an odd couple???

    I know that there was at least a mutual friend that knew and his co-workers. I wish somebody had the courage to write me a letter like that. I would have most definitely snooped – and taken swift action, and in my fantasy re-do of D-DAY- I would of:
    1. had the pleasure to kick her out of my house (the many times she came over for dinner)
    2. told her husband – that same minute
    3. Hefty bag his shit – and placed it at her house.

    I sure hope that lady listens to you and snoops, a letter like that – there’s some truth to it.

  • Even though she’s sparkling she won’t snoop, the seeds of doubts has been planted in her mind. She will snoop eventually, even if it’s just to prove CL wrong.

    No one ever sent me any letters like this, it would have crushed me if I received one. I would be angry but know whoever sent it has some truths, knowing my ex character or lack of.

  • I have a slightly different take. Maybe she is in this marriage because she is getting something out of it…like she’s totally shallow and he is loaded. I mean who even DATES someone who won’t friend you on Facebook? And you KNOW he has a “personal” Facebook page??? Who does that? No, something doesn’t add up here.

    • Agreed, on the fb and phone part at least. I think we’ve all turned a blind eye to red flags and not necessarily for money, so I don’t agree with the “getting something out of it” part, but I definitely think she’s trying NOT to see the light here.
      And I don’t think this is an OW or I think she would have given more details – in my experience, if they’re involved enough to do something like this they’re territorial enough to tell specific things they’ve done with someone’s marriage partner. I bet it’s someone else in the circle (a friend of her husband’s, maybe, who is sick of him or has a crush on his wife; or a friend of hers who should have said something long ago…I’ve been in that spot before, where you notice something but you know your friend will turn on you before they’d confront their awful husband).

      • If the FB and phone thing are true, she’s trying hard not to see the super burning light of the sun itself.

  • In light of my STBXH’s recent affairs, one of my former college roommates wrote to me to say that, 10-11 years ago, while we were still newlyweds, roommate’s husband saw STBXH with a girl sitting in his lap, flirting with her. They feel awful about not telling me. They said they didn’t know how.

    Had they told me, I’m sure I would have bought whatever lies or lame excuses STBXH gave me to cover for himself, spackled, and gotten mad at my roommate.

    • I had someone tell me of an incident about 8 years before dday that she had seen. She was incredibly upset she didn’t tell me but at the time didn’t know how to bring it up as she didn’t know me that well and wasn’t sure I’d believe her.

      • The day I busted my WAW cheating/texting one of my son’s best-friend’s Fathers, I called my parents, explained to them what had happened and asked If they would baby-sit my three sons so I could try to deal with the situation without my kids having to witness the confrontation me and their mother were about to have.

        My Dad told me that he had something to tell me; that 3 or 4 months earlier he had been on the way to a golf outing with some of his co-workers when he “bumped” into my WAW having a lunch-date with her AP. My dad said at first he thought it was me and my wife having the date and as he made his way over to say hello, he noticed my wife see him and then sneak out the back door of the restaurant. Dad said he then realized that she was with another man.

        My Dad told my Mom, who both together decided not to tell me. They gave me bullshit excuses like Dad wasn’t 100% sure it was my wife, they didn’t want to be in the middle of anything, or they didn’t want to get involved.

        My parents have NEVER apologized for knowing months before I did that wife was cheating yet not saying a word. When I was at the complete bottom, when I was completely broke with horrible credit and supporting three teenagers, I owed my attorney $1500 to file. I asked my parents could I please borrow the money so I could just get it over with…in my 21 years of marriage I had never asked my parents for money. My dad actually asked me to sign a promissory note first; I decided to not take the money and to figure this divorce situation out all by myself. I’m not sure if this is just their generation or their view of marriage or what.

        I love my parents and can forgive them a whole lot easier that I ever can my ex-wife but my perception for them has changed. I will be nice to them, care for them and all that, but from a distance from now on. When my life was absolutely at its worst, my parents were spineless…all of that church and doing the right thing stories when I was growing up was nice…but was really bullshit. when it mattered, my parents were absolutely weak and wrong.

        As a side note, my daughter and MIL also knew before hand and said nothing. I’m not sure I will ever remarry or allow another person to hurt me.

        If I ever find out that a someone is cheating, I will bust them.

        • That’s a terrible story, I am so sorry. It’s nightmare enough to be chumped, but then to be betrayed by one’s own parents and children…. awful.

        • Yeah, this totally sucks, i can totally identify. My parents suck too. It leaves you feeling isolated as you tryto navigate through the betrayal – yay!

          (And every self help book, forum, blog, etc days ‘turn to your support group’ – blerg)

          • What a betrayal cluster f–k!! Talk about getting hit in the old ego-holy crap!! I believe this is the part that hurt me the most-feeling so insignificant to the one I was unwaveringly true to. To have the whole family join in is beyond. I am so sorry you have been through all this. My parents betrayed me too-but not at the same time! Just horrible.

          • Ditto.

            For me it was so absolutely soul-crushing horrible. Not having support left me feeling completely isolated, and like I was surrounded by liars. I plunged into a very severe depression. It didn’t help that I am disabled and not employed.

            My parents told me just to stay with him and deal with it. They didn’t even care. I think at one point my father laughed because he thought it was genuinely funny and my mom shrugged and pulled a “What can you do?” out of her spineless body.
            After everything I went through I was double shocked by their behavior. I felt like I was abandoned on all sides, and I never asked anyone for a thing.

            That’s when I knew without a doubt none of these people that were in my life gave a damn about me and they didn’t deserve one more second of my time.

        • I totally understand how you feel about people who you trust implicitly, let you down. I never understood how this felt until it happened to me. The ex confided in my niece about it and the niece didn’t tell me. And I have always been very close to her. I realize that she had not intention of hurting me. But what the hell? Close friends did the same to me. At the time the ex and I belonged to a couples group, the ex showed up with the OW at an activity with the other couples and not one single person called me. Not even the couple we traveled together with and whom I considered very dear friends. I feel like these people made choices who they were going to protect and it wasn’t me. The break up after 22 years wash extremely painful and continues to this day (2 years later, we did try to reconcile, yes I’m a chump doing the pick me dance). I can’t imagine ever trusting anyone fully ever again. And I will tell if I am ever in the unfortunate position of discovering someone I know is cheating.

        • ffghtr67, damn that sucks. I’m so sorry. I understand what you mean about opening yourself up to hurt again. I don’t know if I can do it either.

        • I feel your pain. Your own family was wrong in not standing up with you and for you. Know that there are others who have had the same thing happen to them. I refused to out my husband to anyone including his own parents. Now, after almost thirty years I now refuse to keep the secrets any longer. I am outing his paramour to her husband and I have outed him to his children. I will no longer collude with those who choose to hurt me through their adulterous behavior.
          It took me decades and almost five years in therapy to understand that he never had my back. Now I no longer have his.

      • I have informed several friends of their partner’s cheating ways, only to be blamed for somehow being complicit or to become a reminder of the betrayal itself. None of those friendships ever recovered or were ever the same again.

        After the first time it happened (yeah, i knew, everybody knew but i was the only one with balls enough to tell) i was admonished for not telling sooner. So i swore to myself to never tell again. But then i told this to another friend years later who made me promise to tell should that ever be applicable. Well lo and behold she must have known on some level, cause it happened shortly after. It sucked for all involved.

        Anyway, i would totally tell again, especially now after being chumped. Although i would do it with confidence and moral superiority and righteousness…

  • I would have welcomed a letter like this, because I was literally the last to know. My cancer researcher professor XH spent so much time “at work” during his affair that I was a single mother, and when I complained about it – “All your colleagues manage to be home with their families by 6 pm every night” – he said his work was more important than theirs, and we were lucky we ever saw him for dinner because it was such a hassle to stop and come home. He was curing cancer, and I was being selfish asking him to spend time with his family.

    It wasn’t until I sat him down at a restaurant for lunch one summer day and said, “All my friends think I should put my foot down at how much time you spend at work” and he said, “Really? And did they all say how they were planning to support you after I divorce you for being such a f*cking nag?” that I got my first clue.

    I went home, cried, washed my face, and decided to look at some news headlines on the computer for a few minutes before I had to go pick up the kids from summer camp. I saw “10 Signs He’s Cheating on You,” and clicked on it for amusement. When I realized XH fit 7 of the 10 signs – new clothes, working out, guarding his cell phone, etc. – I wasn’t so amused. I was devastated. After a little snooping, D-day was 3 weeks later.

    I later learned that ALL of his colleagues knew what was going on (he was sleeping with one of his grad students), but none of them had the decency to tell me. A heads’ up – even an anonymous note saying, “Want to know why he’s never home? Check his cell phone records” – would have been MUCH appreciated.

    Nope, I was a chump – and his colleagues were all co-conspirators. I haven’t had any contact with them since.

    • The only people exempt from the responsibility of telling me my spouse is cheating is the family of my spouse…which will likely take their family members side mo matter what, and complete strangers. Many of my so called friends during the marriage didnt get involved. They are no longer my friends. If you cant stand up for me when times get tough, i dont want you there when times are good.

      You want the solution to the marriage crisis in america? Other people have to be concerned with doing the right thing even when its uncomfortable. Wrong is wrong, cheating is abusive, and we all need to stand up and call it out when we see it.

      • This! “People have to be concerned with doing the right thing even when it’s uncomfortable.” Yes, this.

      • I completely agree, Scott. All those who knew about my husband’s affair and didn’t tell me are no longer friends. Yet another way the cheater is toxic–he/she destroys relationships even tangentially.

    • It’s most definitely another shit sandwich when it turns out that people you assumed had your back, actually had the cheaters back. I know no one takes pleasure in being the bearer of bad news, but really??? You know somebody is cheating, the partner is clueless, and you choose to stay silent?

      Even more stupifying was the comment made by one of them that I “should have known he would never be faithful”. Yeah…if one person had had the balls to rat him out, I might have realized that!

  • I got one at work, from a former OW that was pissed at a current OW. I was in shock but held my tongue as I was waiting for his share of the bills….But the next day on my way to work (he had left earlier in the AM than me, he ALWAYS did) I ran smack into him with a third OW!!!! Made it through a few hours work – then lost it, later that evening it all came out…turns out he had been doing this since Day 1. Went through the whole crazy/numb/hysterical scenario. But the scariest part was when I first confronted him and his “mask” fell off. Most unreal and horrifying experience of my life, and I have had quite the life. And would you believe the idiot told me the next day that he had “found out” who wrote the anonymous letter, expecting me to be mad at HER and then tried to turn it around by saying I didn’t love him anyway -. I was just embarrassed! THEN he tried to make it all sound OK by saying they all knew he would would always come home to me, puke-gag-puke! Finally got the locks changed with the help of CL and CNation. True Story. Love my life now…but it took about a year and 1/2. As to your writers story – why wouldn’t she think the FB stuff, etc. Is a dead frickin giveaway? Only bad part for me, aside from the 13 years with him that was a lie is that he’s moved to another state but I’m always on “Red Alert” when I see someone that looks like him…he’ll turn up someday I’m sure – he never had it so good. Thank you Lord for CL! XO

    • She says none of it is true. So, I assume that means she can see his FB page. Of course, with cheaters, they can have any number of dummy FB pages… and cell phones.

      • My wife was a friend of mine on FB, but she would never like my stuff or interact with me.. never got a photo of us, or a happy anniversary note like all the other husbands got. If I asked, it would be me being controlling or jealous. She’d message and interact with other people, she even told one girl that was cheating with the delivery guy, how she was jealous and happy for her. When I told her that was just out of line and hurtful to me, she said ‘why were you snooping on my Facebook page’.. (deflect to victim mode) I told her everyone could see it, it was on my page too.. one of my first red flags… asked if she had a delivery guy, she of course said no and was insulted that I’d even go there… she was sleeping with a coworker creepy old man. They had no contact on Facebook or email, they only interacted in work. The phone thing was only a month or so because he was out of work, it was enough for me to bust her.

        • Yes!! This is EXACTLY the same kind of bullshit these f-tards ALL do to us!! There’s nothing unique about ANY of them! They all “scream” at us how unfaithful they are by NOT publicly connecting themselves to us loyal chumps through social media. Gotta protect the fake image they’ve fed their whores, ya know.

          Somehow, these f-ed up idiots likely think they’re “cheating” on their whores by giving their loyal spouses a freakin’ happy face or a “like” to something we post. We post because we’re AUTHENTIC and want to share the love we have for them or our kids. Stupid chumps we are.

          My whole family is connected on a Path (app). JUST family, so it’s not even like any f-ing whore of his would see it!! You can see which family members viewed your post. For the WHOLE year leading up to my finding his dumb ass out, I would ask, “Why don’t you even put a heart or smiley face next to our kids when I post their photos, or when I earn an award, or something really cool happens at work and I post it?” His LAME answer? “I’m just gonna log off of that! If you’re always gonna pressure me to put a little freaking heart or something, then forget it! I don’t wanna be on it then – shit!!” I’d say, “Yeah – way to blow it out of proportion. A smiley face next to our daughter’s beautiful photo is worth getting butthurt about. Yep.” What a f-ing DOUCHE BAG he is.

          Surfergirl – you HAVE to file. For a number of reasons:
          – In some states the longer that you knew of his adultery, but stay, or even sleep with him (don’t!), you’ve “forgiven” him, and can’t use adultery as a reason for your filing for divorce.

          – You need to have/ask for an immediate temporary order to be put in place, thus securing child support, spousal support, for paying bills, and more importantly, showing that f-tard you’re not playing his wack-job games any longer, and you don’t give a shit what he thinks about you or the marriage. You were loyal, you’re the ONLY good parent, he destroyed your marriage, you’re done with his mediocrity. DONE.

          – Use a credit card that belongs to him, of which you’re an authorized user. Charge your lawyer fees to this card, and make sure he gets 100% responsibility of that card. He’ll pay for your legal fees this way. (It works. I just did it during mediation.)

          – If you have an iPad or tablet, change your PW now, and start a Notes section. Document every day. Just a bit of what’s said, copy-and-past texts he sends you, emails, whatever. But this becomes a time line of documentation of his abuse of you and his emotional and possibly physical abandonment of your kids. Can you say limited time with your babies?? I can. My daughter has ZERO overnights with her abandoning sperm donor. She’s safe with me after World’s Greatest “Dad” takes her to dinner. F-tard.

          Chickie, you will eventually get to the point of honestly not caring what the hell he thinks because really, who the hell cares what disordered whores think? He used you, abused you emotionally, and even physically if he brought some STD home to you (asswipe!), and so YOU determine your value as a woman of integrity, as an ass-kicking mother of children that you REFUSE to allow to witness his abuse of you any longer. You’ll teach them what it means to respect yourself, and them. THIS is what love does: the hard, uncomfortable thing. Staying teaches them that dysfunction and abuse is acceptable. It’s not. You know it. That’s why you’re a member of Chump Nation.

          My attitude and language comes one year (this month) out from DDay, with of hundreds of hours of treadmill running, volunteering, working with a counselor, having my daughter in counseling, and spending time alone with Jesus. You are mighty. You are a Mom. You are a woman. You brought those kids into this world after (I’m guessing by your description of this f-tard…) his maximum 30-second fun time with you 9 months prior to their births. YOU have the biggest investment. Don’t f around with this moron any longer.

          See your lawyer tomorrow. Tell him/her EVERYTHING that he’s threatened you about (thus, documentation…). Tell him NOTHING of your intent to file. Be mighty. Come here for support. We’re here for you, girl. ((((HUGS!!)))

          • I know this post is old, but your advice has helped me tremendously!! I would really be thankful for any more advise you can offer as I am going through a nasty separation (and divorce soon). If there is an email address to contact you, or something? I promise I’m not a crazy stalker lady! Just a single mom with no one to get advise from on my situation. Please help!

            • I also were reading all of these old posts and not sure if anyone has reached out to you but I will chat if you still need a sounding board. Marriage is difficult and divorce is probably the hardest thing you will ever do but is very liberating, you will find yourself in the process.

      • Exactly. Secret cellphones. Dummy facebook account. Ten alternate email accounts. A hidden smartphone or tablet at a friend’s or under mats in a car trunk. Married OW/OM, so that there is none of this danger of telling the spouse (adultfriendfinder?). If there is a will, there is a way.

        I agree with Connie though–something here doesn’t add up. Why would she google CL and even write to her if she is “perfectly fine” and doesn’t believe a single word? Uh.Uh. Nope. I would throw the note away, and never think of it again. Nope. She knows. Deep down, she absolutely 100% knows and is completely pissed off– she’s going to find out who wrote this note and kick their ass for daring to bring this to the surface. HER marriage is FINE, how dare you!

        We all know spackle, and contacting CL and “following up” on a non issue is spackle.

        Oh. About the cellphone? Mine collected fuckbuddies and potential fuckbuddies in his cellphone—and saved them under men’s names. You can search all you like, sweetheart—those tangible things? They’re the first thing that gets distorted. I can’t figure out these cheaters that save things, like emails and pics—like trophies almost. I think those cheaters are the sickest of the sick.

        Anonymous notes are an iffy way to alert someone, agreed. So–how about emails? How about pictures? How about voicemails? I know of 2 instances personally (not mine, unfortunately) that this happened—that my friend heard her husband’s voice leaving messages for his OW over a period of TWO YEARS—and she stayed with him. Because he said he “made a mistake” and was “really sorry”—-know what he did? He went and bought himself another secret cellphone and took his bullshit deeper underground. Do you think I or others bothered at that point to try and tell her that he was still up to no good? NOPE.

        At some point, chumps, you gotta do what you gotta do. What’s it worth to you to have a spouse that you don’t have to police? That’s on us. The cheaters will take anything that you offer and then some.

        What would I do if I got an anonymous letter back then, when I was married and stupid? First, I don’t go for the idea that someone simply writes you a letter randomly to fuck with you. I have never had that happen to me, nor have I heard of it being done.

        Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. If someone went to that trouble to contact you or to find you at work—there is a reason. Find out the reason. If it’s harassment, then deal with it. I don’t give two shits if it’s a “bitter dumped OW/OM”—WHO CARES. So they got dumped by your spouse and they are out for a little payback.

        The problem isn’t the “motives” of the OW/OM. IT’S THAT MY HUSBAND IS FUCKING ANOTHER WOMAN. Period.

        You think I wouldn’t want to KNOW that my husband was fucking another woman and bringing that shit home to me and using me?? Really? I don’t care WHO tells me—as long as they DO. Do I care what her name was? No. I don’t need that shit. I don’t need the added stress of doing the same thing that all of us has done when we found that information out—stalk their fb page, drive past their house, google them.

        I do want proof though, and if this is the best I’m going to get, then fine. I’ll do the rest on my own. If you as a friend are given or know information more than just a vague idea—and you keep that information to yourself for WHATEVER reason (OW is bitter. I want to stay neutral. I don’t know how to say it.)—you’re as big of an asshole as the cheater is, in my opinion.

        • Who writes a creepy letter just to fuck with you? My cheating ex did, to my husband, when I was dating him. Sent it anonymously, and it was bizarre. That I’d bought him a grill (WTF?) and was still with him or something. It was crazy and I didn’t know if it came from the OW (who did stalk and send me weird shit) or him. So all to say, yes, disordered people do try and fuck with you. That’s why I’m saying send evidence and be an open book. If you’re going to tell, step up and tell. Conversely, if this guy has been accused unjustly, I would think he would be horrified for his wife and want to reassure her by being as transparent as possible. The fact that she won’t even APPROACH him with this, tells me she may have some gut doubts about him. And probably doesn’t want to know.

            • OMG TH! Me, too! My ExH had someone call the first man I dated after our divorce. This person told the new guy that I was still dating my ExH, that I has cheated on my ExH several times (NEVER did), has an eating disorder, and to watch out for me because I only used my ExH for money. He was also told that my ExH was “so good to me and my kids but my kids were allowed to totally disrespect him and beat him down.” Nothing could be farther from the truth. I found out it was a former friend of ours that made the call. It hurt because she asked me for the new guy’s phone number (for a made up reason) and I gave it to her. Not only can we not trust the cheating exes, we cannot trust people we used to think were friends

              • What was the reason that you friend gave to call your new date? Since I have had problems with female friends getting too chummy with my husband,my antenna will be up the next time a friend has some reason to call my partner (bf, husband..) Of course, these days, they can simply private message them through FB or LinkedIn.

        • Goldfish: “I do want proof though, and if this is the best I’m going to get, then fine. I’ll do the rest on my own. If you as a friend are given or know information more than just a vague idea—and you keep that information to yourself for WHATEVER reason (OW is bitter. I want to stay neutral. I don’t know how to say it.)—you’re as big of an asshole as the cheater is, in my opinion.”

          Exactly! In two instances, one a work colleague of my cheater KNEW about the MOW because he picked up her friend at the bar the same night as Asshole picked up the MaryKay pig and all the other nights he was banging the female coworker at other corporate events. And second, Asshole’s singing buddies who knew the fat assed MaryKay MOW at all of the competitions were NOT ME as Mrs. Asshole in the various convention hotels.

          Exactly my thought about those cowards, Goldfish. I cannot reconcile those betrayals as well. I had those creeps in my house, around my kids.

  • Add him as a friend on Facebook. If he asks why or refuses, or gives any indication that it’s a problem.. any reason at all to not have you on his Facebook page is a major red flag.

    If your gut feelings weren’t bothering you before.. they should be on high alert now.

    When I drove to see where my wife was in a rush to head out to.. I had a gut feeling, but that was years and years of cheating to get me to do that. I felt guilt.. I felt shame.. how could I not trust her, to follow her.. she would never cheat.. I’d find her, and she’d be alone and I’d feel bad for doubting her fidelity. After decades together, childhood friends, she vowed to never do that to me. Well, when I saw her with another man.. I still convinced myself that I must be confused to what was going on… until I checked her phone records. Then I got the ‘just friends… just a kiss… one time… a dozen times.. one year.. two years.. three years.. five years… loved him, our bed, his bed, at work etc…..’ Through anniversaries, birthdays, holidays.. all those memories trashed now. Get your head out of the sand and at least verify before you end up where I am a decade from now.

    So yea, we all thought they were special and our marriage was special and nobody would cheat on us, and we all had our heads in the sand at some point… that’s how we got chumped.

    • Raging, I get the feeling of all those memories being destroyed, and it sucked. It still sucks, because when the kids bring up some great time I sometimes remember that that was when the idiot was fucking OW x, y, or z.

      So horrible, this stuff, sometimes even now.

  • I only wish I’d gotten a letter, or even that my friend had not been afraid to tell me my ex hit on her. Would have saved me years of shit and likely saved me from actually marrying the asshole. I’m a pretty logical person so if I did get such a letter I would check it out.

    There’s a saying in the military “trust but verify”. I wish I’d done that more over the years…of course I like many other chumps, I forgave the first episode and trusted again, completely. Sometimes our feelings over ride our logic a bit too well. One thing I do know, after I caught him cheating again I found he’d had a myspace account for years that listed him as single. He said he forgot he even had the account, I pointed out he created while we were together so that didn’t fly.

  • CL, just a thought. Maybe the person that wrote her that letter IS one of the affair partners that wrote to you. You have blogged on a couple of them. Maybe look at them and see if they match up…

    • I have no idea, because the person didn’t leave a name. They sent the letter to the “chump” anonymously. I did recently get a letter from someone who was an OW and found out the person was about to get married (this person was married VERY recently), and I said tell, but if that was the person, she told a bit too late — after the wedding. But better to tell.

      Anyway, I don’t know. And it probably doesn’t matter because this person wants to trust and NOT verify. I explained that anyone falsely accused would want to be an open book and would be horrified for her. But I don’t know what she’s going to do with that.

  • I definitely wish someone had told me…like the friend of Ex who, with his wife, was also “my friend”, and knew all about the shenanigans. And all the other people that ex was busily telling how crappy I was as a wife and how much our marriage sucked. Everyone except me. Y-e-a-h. About that part, I did not know.

    I did have one friend, still one of my besties, who looked at his behavior and called it, she said he was lining up another nest.

    It freaked me out of course, and like the full-immersion chump that I was, I went racing home to ask Ex if that was true (Snort,…after the fact…) He said no, so everything simmered down. Until D-day a year later. And that was 2 years ago, and now I’m here, and more healed than not, kinda sorta. But I do have a life, and he’s not in it.

    I think any kind of telling is a kindness, but a straight up here’s some evidence, I’m sorry I did this but you should know yadda yadda telling would be best. The Chump might not believe it for a while, but it would get the gears going.

    And whoever pointed that person to this blog did her a favor, imho.

    • Yeah, because of the recommendation to look up this blog, i am inclined to think that it’s NOT the OW. I don’t get the impression this is a place they (APs) hang out. Maybe it’s a friend of his, maybe it’s a member of his family who can’t be found out…. just a thought.

  • I received a letter. The letter was preceded by two telephone calls that I ignored. My husband traveled extensively for work and is not a social man. When he traveled he very infrequentIy checked in. I never worried for one minute that he would be cheating on me. I was home with his kids and I thought he respected me for that. The phone calls came about 24 hours apart and asked if I knew how my husband entertained himself when he was on the road. I ignored them, I didn’t attempt to contact him, they didn’t raise any red flags, I simply ignored them. Several days later I received a packet in the mail that contained emails he had sent to escort services reserving particular girls in cities he was visiting. Very short and to the point..”I will be landing at De Gaulle at 7pm is Katerina available to meet in my room at the Four Seasons at 10pm” the fact that he didn’t give any information about himself leads me to believe that the agency was familiar with him. After receiving this information I did snoop on his computer and took my phone to the Sprint store to have them trace the calls I had received. The calls were untraceable but I found a lot more of the same on the computer. When he returned home and the kids were out of the house I confronted him. He denied it, said I was insane and just trying to stir up trouble, being insecure etc…showed him the emails and he admitted it. Refused to give me any details, refused to take responsibility, did agree to counseling. That was two years ago this week. Since then I’ve found out that his activities are not limited to when he travels, found out that he thinks I am a huge loser for staying home with my kids, found out that he would rather not have sex than be with me, assume his behaviors continue..BUT he still wants me here because he can’t figure out how to get rid of me without having to give me large amounts of money. He wants me to just disappear..doesn’t understand why I won’t..I hate the person who sent me the letter. I loved the life I used to have. Now I am just lonely and uncomfortable in my own home. Scared to move..hate to stay.

    • surfergirl, who cares what HE wants and what he thinks. What do YOU want? Is this relationship acceptable to you? If he’d have to give you large amounts of money — booyah. See a lawyer. Don’t you think he’s now on alert to hide his assets and activities? There are more important things than being a SAHM — like your safety and welfare, and your kid’s lives and what you’re modeling to them by living with this level of disrespect and abuse.

      • I am no longer a SAHM, I took apart time job within a month of finding out about his activities. Since then I’ve increased hours to be close to full time..really thought that I was a boring mom and deserved this treatment. Since then I’ve found out that no matter what I do he will always find flaws that he can use to justify cheating. Sad addition to this is that I’m not the only victim, the person my husband believed sent me the information was fired shortly thereafter. Presumably for other reasons. Saddest thing is I believe the man who lost his job was not the person who ratted him out..

    • Oh, sweetheart, I’ve been there. You can’t keep living like that. My husband travelled too, I trusted him. We have children and I’m raising them mostly on my own. Your will get to a point where you feel used-as a maid, nanny, personal assistant. You will also feel abused. The anger will eat at you and cause you so much pain. I hope you find a way out of the life you’re living now. It is scary. It’s been a year since the divorce, and I’m still scared. But I couldn’t go back to living with that man. No way. And raising your children is important life’s work-you deserve to be treated with respect for that. I hope you have a good therapist, and if you don’t, you’ll consider finding one and support in moving forward. He’s not going to change. Take that money and start a new life!! The energy spent being angry at whoever sent the letter, and wishing it were not true, is wasted. Spend that energy on you and the kids, and on kicking this man to the curb. Be glad you got it before he leaves you, or gives you an STD, or drains your finances, or invites crazy into your life…Best of luck to you!

    • Please get a personal safety plan. “He just wants me to disappear” made me nervous for you.

      • That made me shiver too. When my Ex was at that point, he found someone he thought would just “replace” me. New wife, new Mom for our children. He started a campaign to make me and everyone else think I was an unfit mother. That’s when I found the will to fight. I didn’t even have proof at that time, just knew he was up to something. It didn’t work, mostly because it didn’t work out with OW. I hate thinking about what would have happened if I’d given him time to set it all up again with a new OW. Who knows what these sickos are thinking. Protect yourself, and your children, surfergirl.

      • I second that, surfergirl! My ex nearly had me suicidal. The only thing that stopped me was realizing that he would have seen it as a compliment.

        Pick up your babies, and get yhem and yourself away from the crazy-sticking with it (as my parents did) will put your kids in the exact same shoes.

        • And dont think its just the men doing it…my ex wife threatened to kill me, tried accusing me of spousal rape, told me her male lovers were out to get me, and so on. At one point when she suddenly wanted to reconcile (after the divorce papers were served) she said, “oh you know me i would never do that, i said those things in anger” to which i replied, “you also told me youd be faithful, you lied about that so i really dont know what to believe”. Liars lie, but the threats are real. One of my regrets in the process is that i didnt call the cops on her when she threatened me.

      • My x started to talk about how he wanted me to just disappear. How he hoped I would die of cancer or in an accident and then even stated he and MOW had discussed how to make me disappear before his latest job relocation. It had been on his mind for quite some time.

        Long story short – I saved myself by using a women’s shelter. He is a Minister and I have no rights to the house.

        Once their secret is out, the mask comes off and so do the gloves. If you think he would never hurt or kill you – you are wrong.

    • Surfergirl, I know it sucks to have your perfect life bubble burst but it was all a sham and now that he knows you know you are in danger. Do not for a minute think he wouldn’t “get rid of you” it happens all the time. Get yourself a lawyer, DO NOT TELL HIM what you are doing and when he is out of town, get your kids and yourself to safety ASAP. I have a free safety plan download on my site Please download it and use it.
      You don’t want to face reality and I understand that. It is very hard to accept that the man you love and trusted explicitly could ever harm you. But it sounds to me like he is a narcissist and they do not have a conscience, they are in it to win at any cost. I know I was lucky to escape with my life and that is all I had, $5, my dog and my life. It was not the letter writer who ruined your marriage; they could be the one who saves your life.
      You will survive, even if you don’t feel like it now. I am sorry you are going through this. Good luck

  • I agree with Connie, something isn’t adding up. She very well could have some sort of arrangement for herself in it (beyond wanting trust, faithfulness etc). The letter the “chump” received was vague, yes. However, the writer mentioned her husband has her middle name in his phone instead of her first name, they also know that her husband isn’t friends with her on facebook. While it’s still vague, they are still somewhat specific examples. I would think that if the writer was just trying to F with her that she would have kept it even vaguer, like “he’s cheating” and said nothing more than that. The writer would probably need to know the wife’s full name to recognize her middle name, have seen her husband’s phone and they would have searched for her on facebook to find the missing facebook link. The writer is someone that knows her and her husband. The wife is in the classic, chump denial mode that so many here can relate to. Hopefully some sense gets knocked into her sooner rather than later.

    • FP,

      Exactly what I was thinking! Sometimes the OW gets impatient during the separation process, or STBX
      tells them they are leaving you for them, and it never happens. Looks like the OW was putting out a little
      insurance policy for her future, while being vague about her identity.

  • I got an anonymous letter after dday, quoting some online exchanges between them. Big freaking deal at that point, because I was busy uncovering the rest of his ho-bag ways.

    Had I gotten it before dday and it had enough info I’d like to think I would have investigated but who can say for sure. I was absolutely sure of my ex and was very sure about the strength of our bond, even during difficult times (which I now know were brought on by his spells of cheating).

    It’s a tough call but if the person who wrote is reading this I would say start looking more carefully and reevaluate those moments that seemed a bit off but you thought weren’t all that important.

  • I wish I would have received a letter like this. Especially since most of my STBXH’s affairs included women he worked with–mostly the ones he supervised. Everyone at his work knew that he had been cheating on me for years.

    In November, 2013, his boss personally witnessed the STBXH pick up a hooker on Bourbon Street while in New Orleans for a work trip. But, in December, 2013, less than a month later, she asked me to host their annual company Christmas party at my house like she knew nothing.

    One of his older employees (most were college kids) is also one of my neighbors, and her teenaged daughters babysit my children. She knew about his cheating, and never said a word. For some insane reason, people just don’t want to get involved.

    The funny thing is… when you use a very loose definition of funny… is that this past weekend, that same neighbor, who has since apologized and is helping me in my case, asked my opinion of whether or not to tell his new girlfriend that his pregnant “ex” girlfriend was coming to stay the weekend. I told her to sing like a goddamned canary.

    I think at first, she thought I was saying that out of anger or hatred for him. I’m not angry at him anymore. I don’t like his morals and actions, and I hate what he has done and continues to do to me, but I have a much better life now that he is gone than I ever did when we were together. I don’t want to jinx it, but I really think I have achieved meh…

    I digress…

    So, I explained to my neighbor that when you voluntarily agree in a relationship not to have sex with other people, and then do it anyway, you are putting your pleasure above their health and wellbeing. I explained to her that affairs don’t “just happen.” It’s not like just a drunken night gone wrong.

    At each phase of action–flirting, taking a number, calling, meeting up, kissing, having sex–at each of these phases, you make a conscious decision. You know it goes against what you voluntarily agreed to with your partner, you know there could be consequences, you know it will at minimum hurt your partner’s feelings, and you decide to do it anyway. He put his own need for pleasure above my health when he decided to have sex with hookers and not use a condom. Jeopardizing my health was lower on his priority list than a $40 quickie in an alley behind Tropical Isle.

    It was only when I put it to her in these terms that she finally understood how damaging his (and all) affairs are, and started crying on the phone apologizing again for not telling me sooner. So, ultimately she said she would tell the girlfriend.

    It was funny when she asked, “What if she gets mad?” I said, “So what?! What’s the worst that can happen? She yells at you, calls you a liar, and blocks your number on her phone? Yep, that’s a tragedy of epic proportions…. But, at least you know that YOU are doing the right thing. What she does with the information is on her.”

  • Even though the letter doesn’t contain any evidence, I think it might plant seeds in her mind, which might eventually lead her to the truth, judging from my own experience.

    Although I never received a letter like this, after my XH gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, coupled with 101 reasons of why I was a horrible wife and neglected him (this 6 months after our 2nd DC was born), I posted what he said on the Marriage Builders website, under the save-your-marriage forum, as I was determined to do anything to address my XH’s criticisms and save my marriage. It didn’t even cross my mind that he was having an affair (though I thought XH was thinking about it, which is why he was giving me this speech).

    Immediately, someone at MB moved my post to the “Surviving an Affair” forum, as apparently what XH said was a dead give-away that he was affair. Lots of posters chimed in, saying that I should look at his computer, phone, phone records, even hire a PI! I thought they were crazy, said I was confident that XH was not having an affair and never would, and then I just stopped posting onto MB and didn’t think much about what they said after that. I thought my energies would be better focused on trying to be the best wife to XH I knew how to be.

    A couple of months later, XH had not come home for 4 nights in a row, saying that he sleeping in the call room at the hospital because he was so busy with work (he’s a doctor). He would from time to time sleep in the call room because of work (now, looking back, maybe there were other affairs), so I didn’t think much of it initially. But I then thought about what those “crazy” MB posters said and started looking at our family computer and the history of websites visited–there were searches for romantic restaurants, romantic bed and breakfasts, and it looked like he had tried to book a room for that weekend! Also, there was a search for incoming flights, so I could tell that he was meeting someone at the airport that weekend. Also, I looked at his cell phone records and saw that he made numerous phone calls to various hotels–there was one he talked to for 20 minutes, and when I called that hotel, I confirmed that he had made a reservation there. And his phone records showed that he was calling/texting one number extremely frequently–I called this number, and a female voice answered the phone.

    I confronted him with the evidence (this was before I knew about CL), and he fessed up to an EA. In any case, if those “crazy” MB posters had not mentioned that they thought that XH was having an affair, I probably would have never been motivated to snoop until much later, if ever. I’m glad they planted the seeds in my mind, or else I could have been in the dark, perhaps forever–XH might have just left and divorced me and then claim that he met OW later (which is what he told me he wanted the narrative to be), and I would have never known. Although MB does have some faults (which CL has described elsewhere), I am grateful to them for pointing me to the truth of XH’s infidelity.

    As an aside, I think there should be a public service announcement saying that, if your spouse tells you “ILYBINILWY,” that means s/he is having an affair.

    • omg, young, this exactly what happened to me. I looked up personality changes and it took me right to midlife forum. Wow – what an earful I got after I started with…I KNOW for sure he isn’t having an affair – I KNOW this man..and proceeded to tell them what he’d been doing. No way that was happening in MY case – they were crazy…but it planted the seed and everything came-down really quickly after that. But, I’ll tell you, I was a cement block believing this was true.

      These online forums can be amazing. It didn’t take me long after that to find CL and burn the house down. One year later, after 35 yrs, here I am divorced. SO glad I listened to everything ppl were saying and glad I didn’t waste one more bucket of uncertainty on this ass.

    • People who say “I love you but I’m not in love with you” only say that when they have the thrill of new romance (limerence) with a new lover. They know the intensity of the new feelings completely surpasses the deep boring love they have with the spouse, therefore that must mean they are no longer in love with the spouse. You only make that discovery once you have something to compare. That’s why it’s a sure indicator of an affair. Or at the very least, the beginnings of one.

      • Yep. I got the ILYBIMNILWY when he had started a relationship with one of his latest OW. All the others hadn’t been long. But then he sustained this one for a while. That saying is a dead give away IMO.

  • First I discovered evidence of the affair, then I discovered Chump Lady and her followers. Thank you all for your open and frank discussion and helpful do-this-don’t-do-that. My confrontation day was this past weekend and he admitted everything – even told me who it was. I went in to C-Day armed with snippets of advice and some killer lines from this blog and I ruled! I wish there had been someone in my circle of ‘friiends’ who could have warned me. If I ever discover that one of my friends is being chumped I will definitely tell. And as soon as possible.

  • I received a phone call at my work from the OW who just happened to be the woman that my XH had lived with before he met me. He moved her out a couple of days after he started dating me (but I didn’t know this at the time.) I didn’t believe her UNTIL she sent me every email exchange that they had. Then I started looking at his computer and his cell phone.

    Why didn’t I believe her? Because while I didn’t know that they have lived together, I had heard about her and her “crazy”. He had offered his version of the truth to me and I believed him when he said that she wanted a relationship with him but he had always run the other way. He had me convinced she was crazy. Until I received the emails and saw how crazy he was.

    Even then, we went to counseling, but it never ended and I never trusted him again. When we finally split it was because he asked me for the divorce. I would probably still be in there fighting for my rights as wife (really stupid!). I should write the woman he left me for thanking her, but I could also give her evidence of his continuing infidelity. He has his profile posted on several adult dating websites and he and I did the pick me dance for awhile until I got smart and called a halt to it all. Even then, he continued to send me emails suggesting that we get back together. Perhaps I should do her a favor and send them all to her.

    Nah … they deserve each other!

  • I reckon these letters tend to get written when the AP starts to sense they are about to be discarded. After all, if they cared about being a decent person, or not hurting faithful spouses and their kids, they wouldn’t fuck married people in the first place, would they?

    • I agree Meh!! I have often wondered why cheaters even bother with getting married. My husband was never faithful, so why not just stay single and date around??

      • Cake, simple as that.

        I really don’t know what to make of this post-I got the opposite of any warning. If anything, when I confided suspicions in friends, they spackled and denied. Friend list is a lot shorter, so maybe that picker is fixed. And it is Tuesday!

        love to all in Chump Nation.


        PS-Trust but verify. Rock on, Dat!

  • Knowing what I know now? I would hire a PI to track his movements and do some investigating. I would also either ask to look at his phone right that minute and not take no for an answer or I would look at his phone while he was in the shower.

    I used to have a “no snoping” policy, but now, fuck that. I wasted two year of my life on a lying cheating crapweasle. No more.

    • Losing the innocent “no snooping” part of myself was one of the things I learned had to be properly mourned a bit. I’ve never respected snoopers in general, but knowing what I know now, it can literally save lives in certain circumstances. If I’m ever in a relationship where red flags arise, I’ll snoop to save myself. No guilt!

      • UnderConstruction – funny thing that one of the most hurtful parts of this nighmare was finding myself on my ass in his sacred home-office scattered with files and madly copying documents hoping the thing wouldn’t run out of ink. Took me two full days (while he was gone Fking her) I thought that not only was I nuts but so were all these nutty sites I was consumed with on the internet making me do this!

        I felt completely dishonest, humiliated, shameful for Snooping, and just disgusted with myself. And, bawled the entire time.

        Well, those 2 days saved my life; finding secret bank accts and, mainly, having everything I needed to file.
        My ducks were firmly line up – that alone, is pretty precious stuff.

        It’s not snooping when you realize you’ve been foiled all along.

        The wisdom of this site is truly rewarding, as painful as it is to stomach.

  • I got an anonymous letter from OW2’s boyfriend. I determibed it was him later. It was actually a very kind letter, telling me that I deserve better. OW2 was stringing along her BF until my then husband would leave me. I already knew about the OW when I got the letter but my then husband told me it was over. I got the letter on Saturday and saw a lawyer the following week and filed for divorce. Alas, CL wasn’t around then so I took back his sorry ass before the divorce could be final and withdrew the papers. That was 13 years before the final OW.

    This woman will be back here on CL. She can only pretend for so long. Her choice: suffer for a brief period or suffer a lifetime. Only she can determine her worth.

  • I did get a text message like this. The ow sent me an anonymous text telling me my husband was cheating. She then went NC with ME, not with him. I only sent one message back, “can we talk?” I got nothing back. She clearly only sent it to break up my marriage because she figured out he was never going to leave me and I was never going to find out because he’s such a good liar. Since she sent no proof, I of course confronted him. He denied everything saying they were just friends. I did some research. Turned out they were following each other on twitter and she had launched a nasty smear campaign against me. He was a firefighter who worked in a city an hour away from our home town so I didn’t know his coworkers very well. The ones I did know refused to even say hi to me because it turned out he had been telling then all for MONTHS how unhappy he was, u was such a bitch, only using him for money, he sleeps on the sofa (forgot to tell the HE put himself on the sofa). She had been going to see him at work. They all knew about her. They may not have known how deeply involved he was. He had been setting the stage for months to leave me and no one would’ve been surprised. The ow would post how stupid I was for asking questions with obvious answers. She had literally infiltrated my life. She wanted my husband to be her husband (she even posted about wanting a ring), my daughter to be her daughter, our friends to be her friends, etc. She had friended every one of his coworkers on Facebook. She lived in a tin 2 hours away but came to our town to visit frequently and would spend the night at one of the other fire fighters houses that I used to be friends with. I literally felt I was being shoved out if my own life. He works for a fire department in a suburb of Kansas City. He’s in the right profession for attention! These narcs thrive on it. He’s part of the fire fighter color guard that’s going to raise the flag at the World Series game tonight in KC. This is his big moment! I wonder if anyone told Billy Butler he won’t be the most important guy on the field at tonight’s game. Butler only THINKS the fans will be screaming for him.

  • As CL pointed out the letter was mean spirited. It does in fact sound like the OW & a manipulative attempt to break up the marriage. No better way to win the pick me dance.

  • I got a letter too! It was not anything about my husband, it was about me and how I didn’t have any class, was just trailer trash, and on and on…I lived in an upscale neighborhood in Dallas at the time. I first thought one of my next door neighbors had gotten mad about my dog barking or maybe I hadn’t taken the trash cans off the curb in a timely manner. Then I realized it was post marked out of town. This someone didn’t know me…and my husband traveled !!!!! Thats when I knew how he really felt about me. He obviously told some chippy what a terrible wife I was. I’m sure she rushed in to save him…thank god too!!! Not long after he left me and our three kids to deal with the house foreclosing as he was enjoying his new apartment. That was my first cheater…boy I can pick um!

  • Too bad the letter wasn’t more specific. I mean, it’s subtle and it’s there, but it can easily be ignored or attributed to someone who just wants to hurt you. I hope she thinks long and hard about what CL told her. Something tells me she’ll be here with us eventually.

    Yes, I wish I had been given a letter like that. It would be better than having him TO THIS DAY still insisting that he began to fuck someone after we separated and not before. I can’t even get that one measly truth out of him. I deserve that much.

    I hope she doesn’t waste years of her life on a serial cheater.

  • Everyone in the exercise group where my ex and his OW worked knew about their affair. They all knew me as well, but no one ever bothered to tell me about it. Someone DID, however, send an anonymous email to the OW, telling her that my ex was closet gay and had loads of sex with other men. The OW’s husband actually saw that email and that is how he found out his wife was cheating. Anyway, I guess it didn’t bother the OW that much, because she continued the affair on and off for months more, and possibly years for all I know.

    As for the message sent to the OP here: I assume that the husband’s OW sent it, either in an attempt to blow apart the marriage so she can scoop up the “prize” of the husband, or because he dumped her and she is angry and out for revenge. Either way, if I was the OP, I would start quietly investigating ASAP. I would ask him to friend me on Facebook and start looking at phone and credit card records. They say denial runs strong, and so the OP might spackle like crazy for awhile, maybe for years, but my guess is she will be back here on ChumpLady eventually with a sad story of how she should have paid attention when she got that message.

  • I didn’t get a letter, but I honestly wonder what I would have done had I received one. In my darkest days, knowing me, I likely would have spackled the shit out of it and then thrown it away. I probably would have shown it to my x and then happily soaked up the excuses and lies that would undoubtedly follow. Back then, although a little part of me knew, the rest of me wasn’t ready to believe it and no letter would have changed that. God, I was so stupid back then.

    Now, if I received a letter like that (and I was in a romantic relationship) I’d probably take it seriously. Once bitten, twice shy I guess.


    • I was thinking the exact same thing, Babushka! I wouldn’t necessarily say I was stupid back then but definitely naive and I was so invested in the life we were creating and the dream of what our life would be that I would have just spackled over anything written in a letter like that.

      The new wife who wrote to CL breaks my heart – she absolutely does not want to see what might be right in front of her eyes. She was me 15 years ago but the difference is, she’s been given a warning. I was not. I want to shake her and say “please investigate this – there is a reason why someone wrote you this letter and you need to find out what it all means!” My hope is the fact that she wrote to CL may indicate there is a feeling of doubt (that she isn’t willing to admit) and if she reads everyone’s responses, maybe she’ll wake up out of her denial.

  • No letter. He just walked out. I found a receipt after he left that basically indicated to me that he was cheating even before we were married. Other odd little stories started to make sense. It would have been nice to receive a little before I committed to him. I had no “gut feeling” either and was recently married. But if denial works for her, good luck and best wishes.

  • I never got a letter but if I had I’m not sure I would have believed it… first. But I think it would have planted the seeds and I would have started snooping as CL suggested. The thing is, I completely trusted my husband and never dreamed in a million years he would cheat on me. Years into our married I learned that he had cheated on his ex-wife. He had an affair and ran off with the OW and married her and it blew up in his face so bad I thought for sure he had learned some kind of lesson…ha!…but then again I thought I was dealing with a real person too just like I’m sure this person does. So yeah, I would have started snooping around.

    BTW CL Much better font and easier to read with the gray gone.

  • Something strange happened right after we got married and I never put it together until years later. Much later, after D Day. I was sitting in my new husband’s office and one of his older female coworker’s came by and slammed the door to his office so hard the windows in the entire building rattled like an earthquake just struck. I was so startled I said WTF was that about?? She was about 10 years older than him and very strange and no one liked her and not good looking so of course I never thought that maybe they had something going on at one time. I asked him why she did that and he gave me some flimsy excuse and I believed him, because well, I just did. She would call our house in the evenings several times a night and I really started asking questions…. like why the hell is she calling our house? He put a stop to it and the phone calls came to an end.

    Fast forward many years…after DDay a friend of mine who worked for the same institution as all of us said to me….’So obviously (insert name of above woman) had an affair with your XH because no way in hell would she have gotten that job any other way. OoooOOooo I said,and a light bulb went on in my head…. now it all made perfect sense. Of course he had been screwing her. Not while we were married but definitely before when he was married to his last wife. This woman got all jealous that he married me and was furious at him. That explained her bizarre behavior.

    On another note, the OW in my case KNOWS my XH cheats on her and she doesn’t care. She’s okay with it. Believe it or not, some women will put up with ANYTHING to have a man. I say women here because I don’t know if men would be so eager to put up with this kind of stuff…maybe but I doubt it. It seems women think a man is the Big Prize in life. So maybe the author of this letter doesn’t care if her husband is a cheater?

  • I tried to warn the online women my husband was flirting with and stringing along when I was snooping and found out what he was doing. One thing led to another and another, and I had cause to snoop — but no one warned me. I was met with a less than enthusiastic response — some of the women called him and told him a “crazy ex girlfriend” had hacked his online account. Many did not believe I was his wife. His online profile was full of outrageous lies, but none of them questioned him. I didn’t want them to get hurt by his lies, and at that time I was reeling from all I had found out. He was working the online service like a sales job, contacting between 25 to 50 women a day, and following up with the ones who responded. If he had worked a job that hard, he would have been successful instead of unemployed. At any rate, their disbelief did not really harm me, and the fact that I found out what a liar and cheat he was actually ended up saving me. It was quite a shock, one I didn’t want to believe, but the evidence was clear. We don’t want to believe someone we love would do that, and we want to believe we are special — but to a cheater, we are all just supply. I was paying the bills and providing the comforts of life, and every day while I was working he was betraying me. It was that simple. We need to be smarter, and use our anger on the one who cheats on us, instead of the OW/AP. If the cheater does end up with them, it won’t be long before he cheats on them, too.
    Never again will I be so trusting. I like that Trust, But Verify.

  • I got an email from the OW’s boyfriend that lived in other state (and yes she was also married) to tell me that not only was my XH cheating with his girlfriend but my XH was sending messages to his best friends wife talking abut birthday spankings he wanted to give her. Really, I can’t make this shit up..

  • If I’m honest I probably would have asked the ex, he would have gaslighted me and I would probably have bought it. If it happened now, after all that I learned about ex’s double life? I’d walk, fast. But then my tolerance levels are extremely low these days.

    • I would have been the same. Unless I was provided with photographic evidence of cheating, or a timeline of witnessed events that corresponded to what I knew of my ex’s whereabouts, I would have laughed, told my ex, and been completely gaslighted and manipulated. I was a rose-coloured-glases-wearing innocent. I even laughed at my ex once when he told me HIMSELF that I should not trust him, dismissed the entire notion and went on blindly trusting him. That was when a mutual friend of ours told him that he was treading on dangerous ground (never realizing that he had already PLOWED the ground), but decided that was sufficient and didn’t tell me.

  • Reading this was like a kick in the gut for me. I, too, got a letter (email) about my ex. Not from an OW, but someone who cared enough to tell me what was going on behind my back.Turns out, my ex was sleeping around behind my back; I was clueless. After I got the letter, I confronted him, he denied everything, saying they were “just friends”. I snooped after the confrontation- should have done that first. A month later, the OW herself emailed me, taunting me about everything she knew. I never spoke to her. We tried counseling, but while in counseling, I got an email from the OW’s bf. He forwarded me her phone records- she and my ex never stopped talking. That was it for me. Well, that and the fact there were two more OW (3 total).

    So, he hooked up with 1 of the OW and they have a son together, but, not surprisingly, he still cheats. I reached out to her (anonymously b/c I’m still close with some of his family) and told her he was cheating. I answered all her questions and gave her proof. I heard that blew up his world for awhile, but he’s a great liar and they’re still together. She blocked me on FB and pretends about their wonderful life together.

    Well, you can make them see the truth, but you can’t make them leave. I figure that I gave her more than I needed to- what she did with the information was up to her.

    This letter seems like the real deal. The letter writer knows details that a random weirdo/ stalker wouldn’t know. If the wife really wanted to know, she’d look into it. But likely she feels that ignorance is bliss.

  • I got a strange call from a man asking if I knew where my ex was when the kids were little. When I told him, thinking he was a colleague, the man said, “No, he’s in “another city name.” I felt alarmed and asked who he was, but he just hung up. My ex had an explanation for it that sounded somewhat suspicious, but I wanted to believe him. We changed our number and had it unlisted. Now I think that call was real and I wish the man would have given me more details. There wasn’t enough to go on to actually follow up.

  • I never got a letter, but got a phone call after I knew. I had already had my D-day after finding a receipt for jewelry and finding her name through cell records and her FB page. I emailed hubby one of her fat photos from her FB page with the tag line “hope she is worth it” He swore it was just friendship, then just an emotional affair, then just a kiss. He still swears it was just a kiss. We reconciled, I found a counselor and he swore he broke it off. One morning at 5 am as I was packing pb and j’s for my 2 boys lunches I got a 5 a.m. phone call from a gas station payphone. She was pissed obviously and started telling me I was a loser, he was a loser along with graphic sexual details and places that they went, how he said I was a nagging B etc. 2 years later I still don’t know what to believe. We are separated but I still try to convince myself they never had sex. I wish I knew the whole truth, but probably never will.

    • Now why would an OW get pissed if it was just an emotional affair? She was using sex to get your man, and he was using her for sex right back. She feels used and disappointed to the point of being enraged.

      Absolutely they had sex. There exist no chaste love affairs. Hell, even Father Ralph nailed Meggie.

    • Yeah, mine claimed it was only “kisses,” too. Complete hogwash. What adult relationship that lasts for months does NOT have sex?

  • I’ve read enough here to conclude that anonymous tips, hints and accusations are really not the way to go. I would have spackled and inhaled the gas too, most likely. I had a lot of suspicions that got blown off and I eventually repressed them so as not to rock the boat. Young kids, you know.

    In this day and age of mega pixel camera phones and computer pads, if I was going to bust someone, that’s how I’d do it. Send photos.

  • I am not sure.

    I spackled over a red flag that raised its head about 2 years before this affair. Make that two red flags. The first was well before Schmoopie was in the picture, or even hired at his workplace. The second was likewise before Schmoopie was reasonably in the picture.

    I have since concluded that Schmoopie may not be the first. I think she’s the longest, but possibly not the first. Every once in a while, I wonder who he was banging at work, but then decide that it’s not worth the effort.

    But a letter would have been too much for me to ignore. I’d have been shocked, then devastated, but I think that the truth is better in the long run.

  • It sounds like it was written by an OW who has recently been dumped in favour of another OW.

    Part of me would love to have received a letter like this, but my ex would’ve just denied it all and accused me of being crazy. It wouldn’t have done me much good to have anonymous confirmation.

    I agree that it’s much better to do this sort of thing face-to-face, if possible.

  • I actually was unknowingly the OW… The sociopath found me when I was 16 and he lied about his age (said he was 20 but he was 23), lied about being married and having twins.. He lied to me for the 18 years I knew him ( but I was not involved with him the whole time.. We were friends).. I saw him a total of three times since Jan to get my car fixed and his wife called me in May. She was acting crazy, saying she was going to call the police. I was in shock and downplayed the extent of my involvement because I did not know how unstable she was… I told her enough but I felt guilty for not telling her the truth. I maintained NC.. Just told his wife I wanted my property back from him and she said that was ok… But he never picked up and hung up on me so I cussed him via text and moved on my way. As I investigated I found out he was involved in another affair and illegal activity.. My guilt combined with needing justice for his violating me as a kid took over and I messaged her the truth and to explain why I believe he has a personality disorder. Of course, she did not believe it because he picked the perfect victim. I didn’t identify myself because I did not knowingly choose to be the other woman and do not want to be dragged into their mess, considering his wife greatness to call the police on me… Anyhow this is just my story… I’ve actually moved on and I’m happy.. Although still occasionally shocked I knew someone who was such a piece of ish! I did think about pressing charges but instead I reported him anonymously to the police. Karma does come back!

  • A woman I barely know, a friend of a friend, saw my husband having a cozy lunch with another woman and she immediately told me–thank God. Lots of people knew, his friends, his brother and sister, the guys at work, but no one spoke up. When I approached some of them after they uniformly said they didn’t want to cause trouble. No, much better to let me be made a fool of. I am done with the lot of them.

  • I DID receive a letter from the OW. My EX and I were in “reconciliation” for over a year. I was still trying to heal from his serial infidelities (swingers clubs, escorts, online hookups, dating sites, an extensive double life and a current affair partner he told me he was “in love” with). I had invested 25 years and 4 children in the relationship. Also being a chump, I was very forgiving and wanted my intact family. The whole year after we got back together, my gut was telling me he was still cheating and seeing his final affair partner. When I would talk to him about it he would tell me I was crazy, he even told me she had gotten married and moved away. He was gaslighting me at every turn.

    So when I received the following letter to me arrived in the mail, my first feeling was relief, I wasn’t crazy.
    (names changed)
    Dear It Is What It Is,

    I met Randy on…a single’s dating online service in 2007…he told you we met at the hospital…not true. He stated he was single…I didn’t know he was married at first. We were together over a year.

    He went back for the kids in 2008 that fall. Was at my house that night before he moved home…I did hope he would be a good husband to you…and a more involved father…

    He stayed away at first, but kept in contact…a Valentine gift…text messages…watched me from a far. Then in 2009 Fall I saw him on again…it made me angry to see that…and I confronted him about it…said he was looking for me…then we started getting closer again…especially in Jan…probably a few hundred text messages. He came to my house on Sat. Jan. 30th…

    Seeing him again was emotional…we talked, cried and kissed…and just held each other…

    Randy takes care of Randy…he talked about his faith…and I realized so clearly this was not a honest man…especially to God…his actions said everything……his whole life he has been dishonest…he just speaks the words…

    You have been so in the dark, and hurt so much…so with this information as you wish….I have protected Randy’s lies, and protected him far too long….I have been far too kind to him….

    Take care of yourself in everyway….


    Other Woman

    I took the letter immediately to Kinkos and made copies. I gave copies to my best friend and called my lawyer from her house. I confronted him with the letter the next day. He told me I was just looking at it wrong, he finally got closure with her. I finally filed for divorce the next day. Without the letter I probably would still be with my EX being gaslighted and feeling miserable. She sent me my ticket to freedom.

    Months after I filed and it was clear to my EX that I would not be reeled back in, he reeled her back in and married her right after the divorce was final. I hope they have all the happiness they deserve. She certainly knows what she “won”, a cheating, lying husband.

  • The secretary at my STBXH’s union hall took me aside and said “you need to get a hook on him.” I must have looked stunned and didn’t say anything.Months later I found out he was having an affair ,while working on a job out of town,as I checked phone records.I didn’t forgive or forget,but with 2 young kids I decided to stay only to find out he’s a serial cheater. No one has told me except one nice neighbor said in front of my husband”you wouldn’t be playing golf here with other women would you?”I asked other neighbors who I’m sure know ,as they walk their dogs there,but they denied it.there is nothing worse than this mind fuck shit sandwich cheaters give you when they,lie,blameshift and make you feel you’re going crazy.i am greatful to those two brave people who told me they are heroes.only these people at Chump nation and Tracy know what we go through.if you did you would find a way to tell.there is nothing worse than not knowing.i know a lot of you chumps were left by their cheater,but it’s terrible to have to live with a cake eater too cowardly to just leave.

    • Thanks Tracy for the picture you gave me. It looks just like me. Cute,purple,confused,cute,very cute indeed!

      • Hate to burst your bubble Danaber7 but that’s a random avatar, :). I have posted on the forums how to change your pic if you want to cos one of our chumps got a poo pic, heh.

        • I figured it was random,but it was great with me! By the way,datamwolf I appreciate your comments in past blogs.seems like you’re a nice,smart person.

  • I got a TEXT, not a letter, from a woman claiming she was a mom from my daughter’s soccer team. She told me my husband was running around with her coworker, and then gave me the contact info to reach out to the OW. I called the cell number I was given and had a long talk with a woman who has been having an affair with my husband for a year, is his much younger “soul mate” and even had sex in my bed while I was away! She says they will be together for the long term, that she had left her husband AND child to be close to him, and was glad she could finally talk to me. He was seeking counseling so he “didn’t do to her what he had done to me.” Wow! She is welcome to him and his ridiculous lies.
    Confronted my STBX, and he confessed.
    Fast forward to see all the typical cheater moves:
    1) The initial text was actually a set up from the OW- not a soccer mom at all. She had grown impatient.
    2) My husband actually gave her my cell number.
    3) He claims he is bothered by the fake text, but is still with her today (figures). She is really a “good person.”

    • I think a lot of letters from APs are probably intended to cause the marriage to rupture–even the ones sent in “revenge” if the AP has been dumped. At the minimum, most of these letters cause a huge D-Day confrontation. And even if the Cheater is angry about the letter, the AP may be the only source of cake if the Chump walks away.

  • I never got a letter (or a hint) and of course several people knew. “What the hell is going on around here” is an appropriate response by the Chump to her husband, the affair partner, or the tattletale (God love ’em, they’re screwed up too). Then SHUT UP. Let them answer you. You have a RIGHT to know what’s been going on in your own life. Ask. But keep your questions short, your tone serious, and let the liars lie, confess, or ignore you. This isn’t going to go away. I agree with everything CL has said about safety and going NC if necessary. Just demand answers that you’re entitled to. No, we’re not “entitled” to lots in life but answers about our own lives, everyone deserves.

  • I got a call from someone (turns out it was a former lover) warning me that my STBXH was bad news. She might have said that he cheated on her; I don’t remember. I thought she was a crazy, jilted lover. Fast forward a few years…
    I got an anonymous letter at my workplace saying that he was having an affair with a coworker. I was 5 months pregnant at the time. We actually all went out to dinner (myself, husband and OW, also our toddler) to clear the air! D-day #1 was about a year later. Fast forward 8 years…he dropped D-day #2 on me 7 months ago and we are now divorcing.
    Yes, I am a little slow on the uptake. If you look up the word “gullible” in the dictionary, you will see my picture. My STBXH is a POS, serial cheater.

  • For me,it’s real damn simple. If I ever know of anyone cheating on anyone,I will immediately contact the chump and tell all I know. I will also identify myself and tell exactly how I know about it. Being chumped is bad enough,having others know and keep their mouths shut,allowing you to continue being chumped,is worse. After what I have been through,I will do whatever I can to help those in the same position.

    • Yes,that’s it. And no one knows unless they’ve been through it.all of these shows on tv and movies act like it’s some great fling to screw your partner.the young girl from the movie “Gone Girl” said on one of those shows,I forget which one, that she doesn’t like the word ” mistress”!,but prefers”girlfriend”.wtf?that’s why I love this sight.thank you Tracy and chump nation!

  • I wish I could say I know exactly what I’d do with that letter but given my history and the fact that my subconscious was absolutely screaming at me that there was something wrong and I ignored it, I would probably do the same with a letter but file it away for future knowledge. The truth is that I don’t think everyone is ready to face this kind of truth at the same rate. I wasn’t ready to listen to what my subconscious was trying to tell me, until I was actually ready.

    I think this reader isn’t quite ready to face the truth but the fact she reached out to CL probably means that there is a shred of doubt. Eventually that doubt will scream loud enough for her to hear it and hopefully it doesn’t take too long.

  • Early this year, I did get such an email, at my office. Claimed to be from the sister of the OW. From a fake name, and a reply to the email came back undeliverable. It had enough details – length of affair, money changing hands – that I didn’t think it was spam. As you say, the writer was a coward. They wanted revenge on my husband, but didn’t want me to contact them or ID them. The email was full of exclamation points; trashed husband personally, said he was a liar. Presumably b/c he hadn’t gotten a divorce. (You’re with a guy who cheats and you’re shocked that he’ll lie to YOU?)

    But – my husband had given me power of attorney. I used it to get financial records that showed payments to the OW via her email address. I wrote to her to say, no he isn’t rich, and yes, he is a liar. He especially won’t be rich when the D goes through in my FAULT state. Hope OW enjoys him then.

    Fun fact: H said I was unethical for using the POA to prove his affair, b/c he didn’t give me the POA for that purpose. Tell it to the judge!

  • Ah, a cheater talking about ethics after they are exposed… add one more to the “stupid shit cheaters say” list.

    Cheating on you was unethical, you didn’t give him vows and a ring for that purpose.

    Two unethical acts cancel each other out, ask any cheater.. and going by cheater rules, you can just shift the blame for your unethical behavior onto him. Problem solved. You’re just a good person that did a bad thing. 😉

  • So much wisdom here. In my experience when my spouse mistreated me he showed the people in our lives that it was okay to mistreat me. The fuckers got on board big time. I remember my childcare provider looking at me with contempt and saying to my face at a dinner I treated her and another woman I was very giving to, that she “was not responsible for my friend’s problems,” in a context that seemed strange. I could not understand the depth of what she said then but it struck me as odd. The other fucker said “Devorah, would you have an affair?” I had no idea where that came from. I said I would not. They were testing to see how much I knew. They both knew. It was a perfect time to tell me. They should both rot in hell right here on this earth. No yet meh, as you can hear.

    Lesson learned: Never get on board for abuse.

    Last thought, CL your suggestion apply only to OW who are unknowing. The other kind sucks and would never take your suggestions.

  • Years ago, when I was a senior in high school, a fellow student told me she was dating my EX- BIL. – well I was stunned, because I didn’t have an EX, just a BIL.- so I went home and told my parents – and was angrily told to not say a word and mind my own business, “no evidence” and I was “just jealous” of said older sis, etc. – fast forward three years, sis had quit her great job, had a child with “ex”, moved clear across the country and caught him in an affair, and – he had funneled practically every damn dollar. – leaving her ass broke and abandoned. Our parents moved her back after the big d-day, and she subsequently found out -via dear mom – I knew he was ho ing around years ago and didn’t tell (fuck me!) So guess what?, sis still will not talk to me. Yeah, like it was all my fault…

    Oh and Roberta was a neighbor of ours, and I always thought Ed was a douche – but never dreamed he was this fucked up –

  • Oh, and I so wish someone, anyone, would’ve told me ten years ago that my stbxh, was whoring around while on business trips or business “lunches”… Like all chumps, I thought I had the rare, perfect, happy marriage and that we would grow old together.

    It never dawned on me to snoop his phone, bank, or fuckbook page, until he blew up one night with the i love you, but I’m not sure I love you bullshit. I snooped. Hell yes, I entitled myself in the same way he did with every cheating episode.

  • This! My ExH’s sister in law (his brothers wife) told me he was cheating the first time he had an affair. I appreciated her guts but when I didn’t leave him, she got mad at me because he got mad at her for telling. In my defense, I never told him who told me. She gave herself away because when she first discovered the affair, she confronted him and told him that if he didn’t tell me, she was going to.

      • Yes I left him 8 years after she told me about the first affair. I was foolish. I didn’t want my family to be split up. We had a 4 month old baby at the time and I didn’t want to be a single mom with 3 kids under 5 years old. In that 8 years, he cheated on me with at least 3 other women that I know of. In spite of my chumpiness in believing him that he would “change” and “never cheat because that girl was just a friend”, I firmly believe that the ultimate choice to leave should be the decision of the chump. Only the chump knows all of the obstacles that they are facing in their particular situation and it’s unfair of anyone else to judge why someone would stay. That is victim blaming and I hate that shit.

  • He honestly didn’t know what to think. That was my interpretation. I got the impression that it was too much crazy for him to deal with. I can’t say that I blame him. Early on when you get a glimpse of the person you are dating’s crazy ex, who would want to take that on? Just because I have to deal with my ex, doesn’t mean anyone else has to. I wouldn’t wish him on anyone. He’s determined to ruin any hope I have of moving on. And I even have a restraining order.

  • I am the affair partner. That’s right. I am the OW and in a relationship with a married guy. I certainly didn’t come on here to be bashed, or insulted… so seriously hold your comments. I know the situation is wrong and I don’t need anyone to bash me in for the situation will not change based on your opinion.

    I visit this website very frequently as I try to navigate my own situation, which is by far not black and white. I have been involved with a guy for 14 months, and been incredible friends with him for 4 years. The friendship unintentionally progressed. At some point, he decided to pursue me and well, here we are. I try to grasp what the hell is going on, on the other side, to try and decipher how best to deal with it all. The typical “love her, but not in love with her”, they separated a few years ago, but she wanted to give it another try and he agreed to please her after she had a meltdown, added to the fact she wanted a kid forever, and he did not, but they just had one anyways after years of fighting over it. So now he not only had an affair from long before she got pregnant, he had it through the pregnancy, with no plans on stopping despite now having a child. He has been cheating on her in some way for about 5 of the 10 years they have been married.

    I have no idea how this will end. I know I am not signed up for this long haul as I will make my own decisions, on what is best for me. (I am single). I will not justify or defend my relationship with him. Aside from this horrible thing he is doing, he is a great person, and someone I have grown very close to, so going no contact or ending things with him, is a hard thing to execute.

    Mock me all you want. But I can tell you what goes through the mind of “this” affair partner. I feel incredibly bad for her. I feel bad for what she doesn’t know. I feel bad that her husband has zero commitment to her and checked out of the marriage years ago, I feel bad that she is making large life decisions based on false information and a false reality, I feel bad that she lives a fake life.

    Why haven’t I said anything to her? Because she was pregnant, and I wasn’t about to cause her such horrible pain and turmoil during that time. It’s never a good time, but I’m not sure WHEN the right time is after she had the baby, a few months I figure.

    If it were me, I would want to know, so based on that I want her to know. Not so I could have him to myself, but because if it were me, I would want to know, because she needs to be armed with the appropriate knowledge to make the right decisions for herself and her child.

    I have no idea how best to tell her. Which is why this posting today inspired me to finally leave a comment.

    I don’t think she (or anyone) would listen to any stranger telling them something. But I want her to realize she has to investigate him and catch him. And I’m not sure how to get her to do that. I fear that if I say something she won’t believe me and will just run to him and he will deny it…. as most people would. I want her to not loose her sh!t and slow down, and take the time to look into this and find her own proof so she can be convinced of it.

    My biggest wish is that she just catches him. But I know how careful he is and I know there is next to zero chance that will happen.

    • You’re looking at your own future. Why do you have such little self-respect that you’d want to be involved with a man who clearly doesn’t love or respect you? You’re not as special as this situation has made you feel. It will happen to you eventually. That man had wild passion and love deep enough for his wife that he married her at one point. He’s not even willing to leave her for you. There are reasons for that. Pay attention and go get an honest man who doesn’t lie and cheat. Trust me that you only know less than half of the truth between this guy and his wife. When I talked with my x’s ow (several deep conversations) she was appalled that he would lie to her and was surprised at some of the truths and double life actions that he had been giving her.. My advice to you? Run now, get yourself together, and don’t get involved with another married guy. He’s not a good guy and he’s lying to you.

      • this!,

        “only” is just a side piece of used ass. nothing special about that. –

        and why does she want to tell wifey that she “needs to investigate and catch” cheater douche when earlier she said her -oh so special married boyfriend – is just too damn smart to get caught?!?

        – if “only”weren’t so gullible and arrogant. Wtfever

        • @Indy – your writing skills are lacking. It is hard to make out what you are trying to say, especially the 1st and last line.

          I would like the wife to know because like I said, I feel bad for her, and honestly it be the easiest way for us to call it quits, if someone called it quits on us. We obviously can’t do it ourselves.

          Since he is covering all his bases very well, she will never realize something is going on on her own. I’d like her to know so she can be placed on the right track to finding her own proof. Without anyone at least planting a seed, this woman is never going to catch on.

          I’m neither gullible, nor arrogant. I know the situation is not a good one. Boyfriend is not filling my head with lies or promises. We take things 1 day at a time, with zero talk of the future. I am thinking about what direction this now needs to go in. But at the end of the day, she needs to know.

          • “You are a side piece of used ass.” What part of that statement didn’t you understand?

            And clearly you understood the last line but are too deluded and nod to admit it.

            And how wonderful you feel sooooo bad for her – enough to keep fucking him. So here’s a Wild round of fucking applause for you, and you being so clever to fool her with your participation with the cheating fuckwit.

          • Why do you feel like it should be the wife’s responsibility to make you guys end things? That is ridiculous. It’s not her responsibility and she will be going thru enough once she finds out.

            You talk of his wife as if she’s a toddler one minute (the only reason he’s with her is b’c she had a “meltdown”) and then you expect her to be the guiding light that will force you to stop cheating with her husband the next minute?

            Stop getting defensive and address the real issues here. You have low self-esteem, and this man is a master liar and manipulator. Those are the only two things you should be focussing on right now. He sees the weakness in you and you’re playing right into it. He is lying to you. It doesn’t matter what words fall out of his face. He’s a master liar. You know this.

            The wife should know – I didn’t suggest that you write the wife because frankly it doesn’t seem like you’re planning to be kind, or to leave her husband alone. You want her husband to choose you and you’re tired of dancing for him. You’re mad that he hasn’t left her yet, and since he won’t end things with her, you figure that she will once she knows about his cheating.

            You aren’t being the nice person that you’re trying to play us with here. What you’re doing is being incredibly selfish and then blaming things on just getting unintentionally involved with a married friend. Wrong. You opened the door of flirtation years ago and have kept it going, hoping that this guy could make you feel good about yourself.

            But only YOU can make you feel good about yourself. No other person can do that for you, especially a man who disrespects you enough to string you along and lie to you already. If you think he’s not lying to you, reread your own words about what a clever guy he is that his wife hasn’t found out yet. YOU haven’t found out many things yet either. You do deserve better but that only comes after you start making better choices for yourself.

    • if-only — you feel so bad for her… you’re screwing her husband? IMO you don’t feel bad enough. You don’t act like you feel bad. And frankly, I doubt your motivations. You tell her — sure, that’s the right thing to do, but I’m thinking you may be telling her to blow up her marriage (after the child arrives of course), so he’ll be able to devote himself to you. Or as revenge on him.

      You only know what he tells you. You don’t have the truth about him, his marriage, his child, their relationship. You’re as lied to and deluded as that woman you feel so sorry for. Only difference is, she doesn’t know she’s with a cheater — YOU DO. Dump this guy, go NC, tell this woman by sending her EVIDENCE (which, yes, means outing yourself to her), answer her questions, and then get on with your life. Spend some time in the therapy to figure out why you’d settle for side dish status for so long.

    • if-only: You have no idea what his relationship with his wife is really like. Whatever he tells you is bullsh*t. Fifty percent of married male cheaters report that they actually DO have a happy marriage. They tell their girlfriends whatever it takes to get their egos and their dicks stroked. And chances are, your BF’s need for sex and attention LED him to be dissatisfied with his marriage (not the other way around).

      Take charge of your own life; don’t wait for the wife to find out and cause your break up. Have some self-respect and find someone who will treat you well (and stop treating other women poorly by sleeping with their spouses). Heck, we all have some daddy issues; resolve them in therapy rather than in some cheater’s bed.

    • I realize this is an old post, but I am curious to know what is happening now? I, too, was the OW for almost five years. I felt the same way that you describe about her. She doesn’t know, how sad, I want her to know to help her, he is not there because he truly loves her but for whatever other reasons. I was the only loser in this scenario. I was the deluded one. He was using me to get whatever he didn’t get while still enjoying his “home-life”. He did not have a baby with her because he felt bad for her, he was still sleeping with her. Thank you for this post, helping me to see how dumb I really have been all of these years.

  • If-only, you are just as responsible and accountable for lying, deception and royally fucking over this woman and her child. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY you keep your affair going, and keeping your actions to yourself.

    Did you even read CL’s response? Don’t just sit on your ass. There are three directives. DO THEM. Follow each instruction. Give this woman evidence—all your shitty emails, texts, hotel room bills, stupid selfies, vacation pictures, nauseating “love” letters, his smelly underwear he left at your house that that she gave him—WHATEVER you have—Get a box and get it all to her. Make sure she gets ALL evidence. Give her your name and answer her questions. Then get the fuck away. I am sure you will find other incredible “friends.”

    Let me ask you, after all you sound so smug: Do you really think you know about their relationship? You REALLY believe he did not want that child…you are sooooo sure that he had a kid just for her? I will now insult you. You are a stupid ass. You know nothing of their relationship and their lives, except that you are engaging in a colossal deception that is RIGHT THIS MINUTE dehumanizing and destroying lives. So cut your bullshit and get real. Follow the instructions and then get lost.

    Do you think you will just skip away from this because “you make your own decisions?” The world does not revolve around your so-called independent decision making. You will soon feel the suffering you have created–in the most surprising way. You treat this wife with contempt. You condescend. You will soon feel like the biggest fool when you find out what is actually going on.

    You don’t know how to tell her? You are so clueless? Here is an honest way to go:

    1) Get a box.
    2) Gather all the evidence–documents, pictures, phone records, credit card bills, clothing, letters, emails—all of it— you had many years of cheating so you should have a ton of it.
    3) Put all the documentation of your cheating in the box.
    4) Call the wife and ask to meet with her.
    5) Apologize for the shit you did. (since you are an avid reader of CL you can look here for all the harm you have done.
    6) Give her the box and answer all of her questions.
    7) Tell her to write to CL and get advice on how to proceed with divorce.
    8) Make yourself scarce.

    I don’t actually believe that you can do this because you are such a (here is the insult) smug asshole—but I hope you prove me wrong.

    • I will prove you wrong, because she will find out. I don’t treat her with contempt or condescension . If I wanted to really fuck her over, I would skip away and let her never find out, we all know he will just find someone else to cheat with, and that would be of no help to her.

      Completely unrelated to insulting me and thinking that will make a difference. Here is a common sense question for any mom’s out there.

      How long after the baby is born would you want to know this? I held off during the pregnancy because I didn’t want her to have a miscarriage, I am not sure how long to wait until things become a bit more stable for her so that she is better able to handle and cope with this.


      • It’s a good thing you already know about this site, because you’ll be here with your sad story once your cheat-partner cheats on YOU. Of course, you think you are “so special” and it’s never going to happen to you. LOL, you deserve what’s coming.

        • you must have not read the response where I said I wasn’t even sure I wanted him long term because of exactly that reason.

          Thoughts on how much time to give her post baby? That was the actual question.

      • if-only: I’m going to take your posts at face value & give you an honest answer based on my assessment of the situation. First, break off entirely with the cheating married boyfriend. This will go a long way to showing that your motives are honest. Secondly, collect ALL evidence that the wife will need to get a good settlement out of her douchebag; text messages can be sent to an email account to be printed out, or screen captures can be used. Alternately, when you tell her, let her know that you have a box of evidence should she choose to file for divorce later. The poor woman will be grief-struck and out of her mind with rage and horror when you first tell her, and may not think rationally. It is important that she have some receipts, copies of text messages & emails to confront her spouse, but you don’t want HIM talking her into destroying all the evidence–she may, in her grief, agree to reconcile only to come to her senses later and throw the bum out.

        As for how soon after a baby is born to tell her? There’s not really any good answer. I’d wait until the baby is at least a month, preferably 6 weeks. If there is any way to make sure the poor woman has support around her at the time (a sister, etc.), that would be optimum, but I guess you can’t control everything.

        Your affair with the douchebag is going to unleash a tsunami of unhappiness on a lot of people, so please learn from this experience and don’t repeat it.

  • @Indy, I didn’t understand “Wtfever” and starting the message with “this!”

    @Indy, I don’t have to fool her, I don’t know her. I don’t actually have to feel bad for her. Yet I do.

    @UnderConstruction, I don’t feel it’s her responsibility to end it. I just think having her find out is the obstacle we need to kill it.

    @UnderConstruction, I do not have low self esteem. I do read that a lot on these boards from a lot of the people that respond. I agree with most of what people say on here. But some things are taken to such extremes that I see chumps focus on things that aren’t true, at least not always or to the extreme chumps bank on it to be true. And I do disagree with that point. AP’s are not doing it because of low self esteem, hate to break it to you. Sometimes shit just happens. I am single, and I date, and he knows I date others. I am independent and career driven, and unsure of wanting a long term relationship with anyone. He is not stringing me along because long term has never been on the table by either one of us, nor making false promises of any kind, no promises are being made. I date him, I date others when I find someone of interest. He knows I look at my options.

    @ everyone else; I am not doing the pick me dance, nor am I wanting her to find out so they end their marriage. Ever heard the saying “be careful what you wish for, because you might get it”. Couldn’t be more true. I want her to know, because she should know, but even if he were single, I am not sure I would want to be with him given he is a cheating husband. I am not sure I could ever trust him, and I’m not sure I would want to take on a divorced guy with a baby. On the chance that he divorces, doesn’t mean I want that “prize”.

    I am not responsible or accountable for his marriage. I know everyone here was burned once, and as such takes this super personal. HE is responsible for his vows, not me. And if he had the need to cheat, even if I stepped away, his marriage was obviously fucked to begin with. Nobody happily married and without problems cheats. I am not the issue.

    I am fully aware he doesn’t tell me the full truth, which is why I am observant and cautious of the entire situation.

    • Unhealthy self esteem can come out as destructive behavior’s toward others. It doesn’t always mean a depressed attitude – it can come out as arrogance, self-promoting, careless, etc..

      Here’s a few sentences on this from a quick random site:
      “People will often try to hide their low self-esteem by trying to portray a facade of confidence, self-righteousness, or self-aggrandizement. They may also try to divert attention away from their own insecurity by highlighting or exaggerating other people’s weaknesses.”
      Forgot to c/p the site but google that whole sentence to find it if you want.

      I don’t know, you don’t seem super happy or healthy from what you’ve written. You say you read a lot on CL but are in a fine, independent emotional state? Something just isn’t adding up. Why would you be here at all? Something in you knows that what you’re doing is very wrong and destructive, yet you lie to yourself saying how much you don’t care, how you’re in control of yourself, etc, etc.

      Your main concern is how old an infant needs to be before you drop the bomb on it’s Mom because you’ve been fucking it’s Dad since before it existed? Don’t you see how horrible you’ve been to have been a part of that?

      I’m guessing that someone coming here to help you by saying “well, wait until he’s at least 6 months old, then she will take the news well!” just isn’t going to happen. I’m kind of freaked out that you can be so bitchy and disrespectful but maybe you just are a really awful person. I do have a nasty habit of giving people the benefit of the doubt even when they don’t deserve it. Going to go shower and step away from this ugliness for the night. Man.

      • My self esteem is just fine thanks.

        I somehow found CL in trying to figure out a lot of things, and I found it interesting. Why do I come here? because it helps to hear the other side a lot. The victims side.

        Perhaps chump lady has the opportunity to see a new perspective to the site. AP’s also visit it, for whatever it’s worth.

        I know that everyone here is a chump that feels burnt, and are extremely bitter and take a lot of their thoughts and opinions to the extreme, and rightfully so. But I think you all also fail to see that being on the other side isn’t always so black and white. Some of us at least struggle with knowing what we are doing is wrong, and struggle in trying to fix it. I know full well that what I am doing is wrong. I have not denied that.

        My main concern is trying to minimize the impact on her even SLIGHTLY. It will be horrifying none the less, but if there is a slightly better time that’s a bonus, having a newborn is overwhelming enough, I can’t imagine having to deal with this on top of that. If the child is 2 months old now, I figure things should be more adjusted for her at some point, where she can better balance this trauma and caring for a new human being.

        You can all bash me all you want, but I know someone out there is reading this and understanding my point.

        • I’ll answer since you replied this to me..
          Victim isn’t the word I’d use to describe people who have been betrayed and are rising above the nonsense. You say that bit with contempt, condescension and arrogance. As if your role in the betrayal makes you the better person, and the poor victim is just a weak, bitter mess. You’ve got that understanding very wrong. You’re the one in the wrong here. You’re the weak one who has to play an unfair game in order to think you’ve “won”. YOU and your bf are the only ones with the choices in this mess. You’re labeling betrayed people as “bitter victims” while disregarding the fact that you helped cause the betrayal. Own your own shit. Most of the people here are very strong, funny, good-hearted people who just happened onto a path with a monster asshole and are working to rise above that shit. Nothing is weak or bitter about that, for sure.

          You lack integrity, loyalty, honesty and compassion. The little flicker of compassion that makes you want your cheating bf’s wife is tainted with self-righteousness and isn’t coming from the heart. You miss the enormous picture by focussing on when to come forward. Go today. Go see the wife today and come clean. Stop ruining her family memories. Let her know each time her husband kisses her or sleeps with her, that she’s exposed to diseases. You don’t really need to come here and ask that do you? After all you’ve apparently read here, you really need to ask that?

          Your original post here is all about yourself and your timeline. If all you wanted to know is how long after birth would the mother need before handling massive betrayal – then why write so much shit about your role and how “right” you are and you’re not changing, etc, etc.. All of that was meant to strike a nerve with people who have been betrayed here. You seem to enjoy inflicting pain then passing blame. You’re not nice and thinking of this woman at all. You want some sort of validation that you’re saving her by telling her? No, you’re doing this for yourself.

          You’re quick to pass blame and tell us straight up that you lack the integrity to cut things off. You admit to doing things that are wrong and very hurtful and then say that you’re not planning on stopping and that it’s “mostly” his fault. Which is it? Are you trying to be a better person or are you just not wanting to see the mess you’re leaving in your trail of destruction? You say you’re healthy and fine mentally, but there’s so much in what you write that isn’t normal or ok – I’d seriously consider going to a therapist to figure out why you’re OK with hurting people and putting yourself in dangerous situations. Not that this woman would, but wives have attacked mistresses before, cheating husbands have hurt mistresses before just to keep their secrets safe. You’re not in a healthy state right now, no matter how loudly you try to claim that you are. You do not have a healthy self-respect or self-esteem, arguing that you do is comical because your posts prove that you don’t. I tried to help you by pointing that out.

          You’ve been so unnecessarily rude to the people here including myself, so I’m done with your nonsense. I still wish you a better future, you can start behaving much better and can be genuinely at peace if you stop hurting others.

    • WOW. This is my first time posting as well. Sad that it took your post to make me speak up. But as a new mom, and chump,please allow me to help you with your questions. First, I’d like to address a few things.
      “…his marriage was obviously fucked to begin with. Nobody happily married and without problems cheats. I am not the issue.” Wrong. The marriage is not a separate entity from the man, HE is fucked. HE is unhappy, and HE is the ISSUE. Only severely FUCKED UP people do this! You say you know it’s wrong. You want to make it right, only you don’t really want to do anything. You want to give the wife hints and let her figure it out, because…why? You’re not woman enough to tell her yourself? You admittedly aren’t woman enough to end the relationship, you want to put that responsibility on her? The person you say you want to help, to stop causing pain? Okay….so we’ll just move past that nonsense and get to what really matters: either you’re the stand-up woman you (say) you want to be, or you’re the snake you’ve been. I see the point you’re attempting to make, that you don’t owe her the truth, or your loyalty, or even sympathy. And yet, here you are, being noble, right? The fact that you want to throw her a bone somehow makes you feel better. You seem to brag about your other conquests, assuring us that he doesn’t mean all that much to you, you are under no delusions of forever. Which really is saying you’re willing to participate in fucking up someone else’s life for some DICK. That’s classy. I’m assuming that even after you wrote out your initial letter, and responded (self-righteously, I might add) to the comments, that you didn’t take the time to let it really sink how how SICK AND TWISTED this really is. You say you want her to know because you would want the truth. Clearly you care nothing about the truth.You’re willing to live a lie with this man, and you know you’re not exempt from being lied TO. The truth is just not that important to you.
      Let’s get to your question: when is a good time to tell a new mother that the father of her child has been playing her for a fool? NOW!!!!!! If you have one ounce of integrity, you will not let that woman spend one more minute living this lie. When is a good time to drop a bomb on someone’s life, to give her the knowledge that every tender moment she thought she shared with her “family”: the pregnancy, the ultrasounds, the baby kicks with “Daddy’s hands on her tummy, the birth,”Daddy”cutting the cord…were ALL LIES???!!!!! Seriously? You didn’t want her to have a miscarriage? You care about that baby’s life so much that you will participate in the destruction of its family?
      And one more, VERY important factor that clearly missed you: Have you ever, even once, stopped to think that you helped that MOTHER AND BABY’S LIFE IN DANGER? Do you really think that no one involved in this disgusting situation is capable of transmitting DISEASES???? For fuck’s sake, tell that woman so she can get tested!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck your feelings and your friendship, innocent lives are at stake here!

      “…observant and cautious of the entire situation”? If I wasn’t so disgusted I could chuckle at that statement.

      And yeah, we do tend to take things personally once our lives have been played with by selfish assholes trying to get off on a cheap thrill. I’m watching my baby sleep right now, thanking God we made it out okay. If only one of the skanks who KNEW about me and my BABY would have been woman enough to tell me sooner, I could have at least spared myself further pain. Just think about this long and hard. Put yourself in her shoes, your children, or potential children in her baby’s place.

    • WOW. This is my first time posting as well. Sad that it took your post to make me speak up. But as a new mom, and chump,please allow me to help you with your questions. First, I’d like to address a few things.
      “…his marriage was obviously fucked to begin with. Nobody happily married and without problems cheats. I am not the issue.” Wrong. The marriage is not a separate entity from the man, HE is fucked. HE is unhappy, and HE is the ISSUE. Only severely FUCKED UP people do this! You say you know it’s wrong. You want to make it right, only you don’t really want to do anything. You want to give the wife hints and let her figure it out, because…why? You’re not woman enough to tell her yourself? You admittedly aren’t woman enough to end the relationship, you want to put that responsibility on her? The person you say you want to help, to stop causing pain? Okay….so we’ll just move past that nonsense and get to what really matters: either you’re the stand-up woman you (say) you want to be, or you’re the snake you’ve been. I see the point you’re attempting to make, that you don’t owe her the truth, or your loyalty, or even sympathy. And yet, here you are, being noble, right? The fact that you want to throw her a bone somehow makes you feel better. You seem to brag about your other conquests, assuring us that he doesn’t mean all that much to you, you are under no delusions of forever. Which really is saying you’re willing to participate in fucking up someone else’s life for some DICK. That’s classy.
      I’m assuming that even after you wrote out your initial letter, and responded (self-righteously, I might add) to the comments, that you didn’t take the time to let it really sink how how SICK AND TWISTED this really is. You say you want her to know because you would want the truth. Clearly you care nothing about the truth.You’re willing to live a lie with this man, and you know you’re not exempt from being lied TO. The truth is just not that important to you.
      Let’s get to your question: when is a good time to tell a new mother that the father of her child has been playing her for a fool? NOW!!!!!! If you have one ounce of integrity, you will not let that woman spend one more minute living this lie. When is a good time to drop a bomb on someone’s life, to give her the knowledge that every tender moment she thought she shared with her “family”: the pregnancy, the ultrasounds, the baby kicks with “Daddy’s hands on her tummy, the birth,”Daddy”cutting the cord…were ALL LIES???!!!!! Seriously? You didn’t want her to have a miscarriage? You care about that baby’s life so much that you will participate in the destruction of its family? And one more, VERY important factor that clearly missed you: Have you ever, even once, stopped to think that you helped that BABY’S LIFE IN DANGER? (As well the mother!) Do you really think that no one involved in this disgusting situation is capable of transmitting DISEASES???? For fuck’s sake, tell that woman so she can get tested!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck your feelings and your friendship, innocent lives are at stake here!
      And yeah, we do tend to take things personally once our lives have been played with by selfish assholes trying to get off on a cheap thrill. I’m watching my baby sleep right now,thanking God we made it out okay. If only one of the women who KNEW about me and my BABY would have been woman enough to tell me sooner, I could have at least spared myself further pain.

      “…I am observant and cautious of the entire situation”. Right.

      • Excuse the duplicate posts, lost most of my reply due to the verification process, and had to try to remember what I wrote. Point made I guess.

    • If-only……yep i am one who understands. Many spouses don’t get the dynamics of it all. I never set out to be an OW. Much of what you are saying rings true for me. I wanted to let you know I get it.

      But I also get everyone else. My husband cheated. Somehow…..I don’t have any contempt for the OW. I married him. He vowed to me. No woman stood at the altar promising me anything. I just don’t have the hate for any woman. I dont care what HER motivation was. Whether to act and betray me was a decision fully on my husband whom I trusted.

      Either way the devastation cheating causes on all sides—even some OW is unbearable. I would never ever be an OW again. Id also never trust a man ever again.

      Im surprised at how much vitriol is spewed out at If-Only on this particular post. I thought everyone was a bit more level headed and empathetic. Seems like even here, many women blame the OW more than the man. She made some disparaging remarks, true, but maybe she is hurting a bit also. She IS trying to get out of an extremely painful situation. Its no fun to feel devalued, lied to, and discarded. Lets all have some empathy and understanding as women. She, I, we may all become better women for it. Id never do that again. EVER.

  • @J, I completely agree, he is the issue, he is fucked up.

    You are right, I don’t believe I owe her anything, and want to simply throw her a bone, because seriously, she needs to know for all the reasons everyone has listed and then some.

    Not quite doing it “just for dick”, I do like him, but I pointed out my other “conquests” just to highlight that we are not in “forever” mode, I date, I keep my options open. I see the major flaws he has.

    YES actually, I was very aware of the STDs that could have hurt both mother/baby, I am shocked HE was not aware of that. Don’t pin it on me… it’s his kid, should he not be slightly more responsible about it’s health?

    I think you also miss the fact that child never had a “normal family”, his father was cheating on it before it was even conceived. I am not destroying its family, it was already destroyed for years before baby was a twinkle in anybody’s eye.

    I think everyone misses the point that it takes 2 people, and the married one should be the one accountable for his actions towards his spouse/vows. What I am doing is still wrong, but what he is doing is WAY more wrong.

    So if I may ask, how did you find out, and how long after the baby was born?

    • That sounds like childish reasoning, Yes he is, without a doubt, more at fault here. But I’m not debating who’s the bigger asshole, I’m talking about personal accountability. Self-respect, respect for the lives of the innocent, and integrity, You’re so busy trying to compare yourself to him, and let go of some of the guilt, that you are missing the bigger picture. I can only assume you are not yet a mother. You may have no life experience that frames this for you, and you consider that a blessing, but take it from those who do. I agree that this child never had a chance at an intact, healthy, nuclear family, with or without your part. But you DO have a part in it. OWN THAT. Forget him, what kind of woman do YOU want to be? Is an accomplice in a murder really more innocent than the one who pulls the trigger? Sure, they may get less prison time, but they still allowed someone’s innocent life to be taken, knowingly, instead of standing up and stopping it.
      May sound more dramatic than what you’re doing, but in many ways, it’s the same. Life and Death.
      I found out because I finally started listening to gut and did some snooping. To this day I don’t, and will NEVER know the whole truth. YES it was, and is, absolutely devastating to learn that my family was all a game to him, while taking care of a new baby, My daughter was one month old when I first starting finding out, and her first birthday is next month. The most painful part is looking back on the tarnished memories, so I can only be thankful that I found out sooner than later. He would NEVER have told me, nor stopped. He is a master manipulator, can make any woman feel like the only one on earth, and make that same woman feel crazy for ever doubting him, even in the face of evidence. IF you are really concerned with doing the right thing, and not the convenient thing for YOU, tell this woman. That’s what bothers me post about your post, the wanting her to find out, to serve YOUR agenda, because you can’t seem to find the integrity to break it off yourself. You are playing this woman like a puppet, just like your boyfriend, her HUSBAND is. I know it took guts to post here as the other woman, and you must have some level of insight to even read this stuff, let alone expose yourself. But you won’t find any sympathy here as long as you’re playing with this woman’s life. If this is the first time you’ve been in a situation like this, you might be struggling with your own identity and boundaries, questioning who you are. I assure you that if you don’t take responsibility for this, it will get easier the next time, and the time after. Don’t be that woman.Even if you really don’t feel you owe anyone anything, what about your self-respect??

      • after reading all of “only’s” reply I want to throw up. what a callous, self absorbed, immature, disordered, hotmess.

        and to me, it looks like she is just here for the kibbles – and to be spiteful. (big effing deal on your “conquests” lol).

        oh and btw – the baby is not an “it”, and I call bullshit on “its” life being ruined long before “only” started fucking the douche. but she’s just special that way.

        • Indy- all of your observations are spot on. We are clearly dealing with a disordered person here. I recommend going NC. You could sooner find a rock to empathize with you before you will ever get that kind of response from “only”

          • I agree.

            People, “If only” is trying to extract value from this site to use for her own fucked up purposes. She is a SEASONED OW. She has a whole philosophy that deception by fucking a married man is not that bad–and certainly not as bad as what the married man is fucking her.

            With respect to this blog, I pose an analogy. According to “if only:” She can steal from a store because she was not the one hired to guard it! So when she steals she should not have to face any consequences because it was not her responsibility to make sure the goods do not get stolen. What golden logic.

            She can fuck a married man because she did not make a wedding vow not to! See? It all makes perfect sense. “If only” doesn’t want a cheater but its okay to create a cheater for someone else! She gets fucked in the way she likes, after all, and she doesn’t even know the wife so she is really not doing anything that bad to her!

            “If only” never explained to us why she wants to tell the woman now.

            She is feeling vengeful and is USING us to shift responsibility yet again, so when a mother (AND I AM ONE) with a newborn can suffer unspeakably due to “if only’s” actions and “If only” can say that she only told her because she was advised at CL.

            “if only” is a fearful sadist who does not want to suffer the consequences of her actions.

            And what is with her handle? “if only” she were a bride and not just a side-fuck-besty friend. “If only” he would love me enough to leave her. “If only” I would find a man who loved me more or loved me at all.

            She has such audacity to come here and ask us to solve her problems for her and not even explain herself or act with an ounce of humility or humanity.

            Thanks to “if only” I have come to understand the mind of the OW way better. I now think that it should NOT be her that tells. She gets too much pleasure out of the pain she inflicts. I have no idea what this sadist should do. I am just glad I am not her.

            • It is the responsibility of all human beings not to inflict harm on others. Not to deceive, torment, lie, trick, manipulate, make a fool of, steal knowledge or life, make sick—that is everyone’s responsibility. Everyone without exception.

              Those who knowingly and deliberately harm others in hidden ways never want to be treated in kind. That is because no one wants to be invaded and violated. It is a basic human right to live in health: emotional and physical. This OW perpetrates invasive violence and then justifies herself by comparing herself to a worse perpetrator of violence. She is saying: I only set off the bomb with him, but he directed me to the particular place where it went off. He is so much worse than me.

              She does not use language of doing the right thing; she expresses no remorse. She thinks she is doing okay for herself. She says she will continue her relationship with this POS “great guy” so that she will still be in his wife’s life–because it is too hard for her to stop being his “friend.” She does not care what that will do to the wife, having to deal with her knowing what she has done. She does not reveal what motivates her to tell. She is a messed up horror show who gets her values-to-live-by from Cosmo and GQ. It does help to call her out honestly.

              I feel for the wife. My son was one when STBX started his affair. I only learned about it four years later. Four years of stolen life with profound repercussions for my child’s life. So much destruction. The sooner would have been better to know what I was dealing with. At the end of the day, these cheaters make for no good choices and a lot of sickness. She is accountable for all she does, one day she will feel it and she will know why.

              • I never expected any sympathy from anyone here.

                What happened to all the chumps is horrible. But you are all really bitter, which within itself is not healthy and does not show you have moved on.

                IF ONLY life didn’t suck… if only I had greater creativity for a name.

                Te most scary thing about your response is that you don’t blame the cheater at all. Especially your last rant Chumpectomy, you seriously sound like you blame the AP completely, and put ZERO blame on the actual cheater.

                Read your responses, you may actually realize you are defending the cheater to an extent, it cant possibly be them that decided to do this, someone had to “Trap” them and force them to cheat.

                The people responsible for their marriage, are those in the marriage together. They have to have the desire, love and morals to want to stay in it, nobody else is responsible for them. You are trying to shift blame. Ultimately it’s the cheaters responsibility to want to be with his spouse.

                As for my motives in her knowing. She should know, it’s the right thing to do, I’ve said many times, if it were me, I would want to know. Lets call it being minimally noble within a bad situation.

                J had the most sensible and logical response.

        • indy you are delusional. J had it right, she knew that kid didnt have a chance at normal.

          no child conceived into that type of marriage is going to have a chance at normal. You can call bullshit all you want.

          The father had an affair prior to me, and was dating around to keep his options open. That’s about the time we became friends and I told him to fix his marriage or get out of it. His marriage has been destroyed for years before that child even came into the picture. That kid didn’t stand a chance at normal.

          Any thinking individual can see that. Even if I wasn’t in the picture, he would just find someone else, he checked out of the marriage, and never checked back in. Which is part of the reason I think she should know. Because I can step away, but he will just find someone else, she should be proactive and take the measures she needs for herself.

          Being involved with a married guy may be horrible, but I have enough sense to step back and see the greater picture. AP may be horrible, but sometimes, just sometimes, they have a brain. She needs to be given back control of her life, right now she has no control of her life or her future. I can easily walk away, and she will never know what her life is really about.

          • Oh well that explains it all! He was a cheater all along – and then you were just swept away by his specialness , in spite of your hardcore boundaries, and apparently thought “hey, the kids’ life is already completely fucked up, so I might as well kick it just a little harder! Why not? It looks like fun, and he is such a misunderstood and perfect man and I’m so fucking special.”

            Btw, in no way did I say the kid would ever have a normal life with or without you. So what, you weren’t the only to fuck over the child’s life. Big fucking deal, you still chose to fuck his wife and child over.

            And sincerely, IF you can “easily walk way” please do. And don’t let the door hit you in your dumbass on the way out.

            • If Only, you have severe reading comprehension difficulties. You take no honest look at your actions. None. Spin away. You have learned nothing here. This is my final post to you.

              • She will ONLY understand the damage when it happens to her, and it will. Funny enough the dialogue here reminds me of trying to reason with my cheater. There simply is no accountability, no true understanding, no depth. Just shallow acknowledgements followed immediately by justifications. *SIGH* wasted words here.

    • “What I am doing is wrong, but what he is doing is WAY more wrong.”

      That certainly clears things up. What was that phrase Chumplady uses.. “It’s not that they don’t see it. It’s that they disagree.”

      In case you were wondering, my exh’s OW dropped by our home and detonated that bomb that he had set into our marriage, our life. Yes, she was lied to, but chose to continue seeing him. I’m glad she stopped by as we had been TRYING TO GET PREGNANT. It wasn’t pity fucking for a kid I alone desperately wanted even tho we were separated because I was having meltdowns and he couldn’t get divorced because I was so sad. That’s what he told her. *snort* We were trying to start a family…only he was trying to start several families. Because she found out the truth (from his parents) and decided I should know the truth…not some ‘let’s see if she can figure it out’ crap…I got out before I bred with the crapweasle. I don’t have to sue him for child support he hasn’t paid. I don’t have to comfort a little one who’s father moved 2 thousand miles away to be with the next OW. I don’t have to be in the OW’s shoes today.

      Step up and TELL HER.

      You don’t seem to mind the situation you’ve put and kept yourself in. Guaranteed, she’ll want out of the situation you’ve helped keep her in.

    • If-Only,

      I understand. Read my earlier post. If you want to talk (even though quite a bit of time has passed) Im here. Not saying you are upset at all just its nice to talk with someone who gets it sometimes.

      Absolutely no disrespect to anyone else here.

  • Read: ” I’m just so fabulous, I fart sparkles! He just couldn’t control himself around me. So what if people got hurt? I got what I wanted and that really all that’s important. I realize now that he’s just so obsessed with me I won’t be able to get away unless his wife gets him on a leash. So what if he has a kid? Why should I care about that kid’s feelings?? It’s not MY kid. You all don’t understand. My God, you’re all so BITTER. Not my fault all you chumps weren’t fabulous enough to keep your spouses from cheating. I’d explain it to you how AMAZING you must be to attain the status of “other woman” but you just aren’t special like me and you wouldn’t understand”

  • There is no “ideal time” now to drop the bomb on the wife…that window of opportunity should have been BEFORE she conceived. The results will be the same now…whether you wait another day or another year. I do see where her being pregnant could have resulted in a miscarriage though. So now, she gets a child to love but loses her husband….I also wonder if she would have had an abortion if she had found out soon after conception…though I doubt it.

    But telling her now means that she also gets a chance at having a good husband in the future after healing… and the child will still be young enough now to not be confused and hurt (as older children always are in these situations).

    The way I see it is this:

    Tell her now (with evidence) and let the shit storm take it’s rightful course…and save her from future diseases and a fake life with a cheating liar.


    Dont tell her at all, BUT break off the relationship NOW and go NC. He WILL replace you and she will eventually get those “gut feelings” on her own and follow them to their conclusions as she is READY to face them. Not everyone here can deal with a BOMB…but would rather see the signs of “war” coming from afar and deal with it in increments. I doubt you (or we) really know which kind of woman the wife is.

    I am an “increment” woman. I like getting the big picture in stages so I can digest it and have time to make my plans of escape on MY terms and on MY own time table (but I have just turned 60 and have no intentions of remarriage in the future). Dropping a BOMB would force me to act sooner than I can deal with what I need to do regarding what I want to get out of this sad situation and how to go about getting it. GOD has been the One showing me my husband’s true character…and has been “gentle” with me because of my health and financial situation. When my first marriage ended, it was a BOMB and the stress and heartache left me with Leukemia. This time is much easier as I am much older and emotionally equipped to not have taken my husband’s character as being my defects.

    At this point, her husband’s continued cake eating (and yours) is what is finally causing you to question the “right way” to finish this…when in fact, HE should have been the one to break his slimey duplicity to her. HE should have been honest and LEFT when she had her meltdown and NOT participated in creating a child with her (but truth and monogomy are not part of his ethics or morals).

    Hard call unless you knew the woman personally…but all you do know about her has been told to you through the filter of a LIAR.

    You cannot save him, her, or their child. Save yourself.

  • Oh, one last thought…his wife “may” have have already sensed that something was “off” regarding her husband’s noncommital in their marriage…having had to fight so hard to have a child (that should have come as a natural process for two who truly love each other)…perhaps she was hoping that a child would create a stronger bond/foundation in their marriage….smoking hopium causes many babies in failing marriages. Having to “fight” him to have a child during the course of a TEN year marriage would have raised red flags for me all by itself…but I am older and can see this clearly.

    Well, now she will have a child to love, 5 or more years of spousal support (if needed), 18 years of child support, and a chance for a better marriage in the future…with someone else. If she lives in a “Fault” State, she will need evidence/documentation of this affair. She will need this especially if you drop the BOMB on her…so if that is what you do, be kind and make sure she does not have to waste time and energy trying to get that…the stress will cause her milk supply to likely dry up and cut short the important bonding process with her new infant.

    As for you “if only”, whatever you decide to do, please do it quickly and wash this person out of your life permanently since he is not the kind of man that YOU would consider for marriage either.

  • About a year-and-a-half ago I found out my boyfriend (who lives 45 minutes away) had a fill-in OW for 4 months. Checked cell phone when he was in the shower so I saw the messages and put dates together to determine that one night he had sex with me, we parted ways, and then he subsequently went out with her right after. I contacted her the day i saw messages and told her that I was w/him that same night. We even corroborated that he wore the same clothes -no shower. He said he still wanted he & i to be together, would quit his job (they worked together), etc. I agreed and we were together for another year until a recent breakup. We still remained sexually active and he he was indicating he didn’t want to necessarily break up but we just needed some time to fix our issues and we may have moved in too soon due to my demands and the circumstances. Swore he was not seeing anyone else. So I have sex with him, less than a week after he moved out, and find out that later that night he is with another woman. Their 3rd date. I texted her & told her that we had sex earlier that night. She asked via text if she could call me on speaker phone and confront him and I said “sure”. I asked if he was still wearing the outfit he had on when I left and sure enough he didn’t even shower and was in the same exact outfit. We hung up and i assume they discussed b/c some hours later she started texting and I start texting back and he got involved deny deny deny so I started sending her the evidence of the things he was saying to me that contradict what he was saying to her and also sent the evidence of the previous incident to show her its his MO. She believes him, even after his own sister said he was a dirtbag on social media. That was 8 days ago. I immediately went NC with both but did apologize by texting her the next day saying I would not contact her 7 days NC her, 8 NC him. I just found out that they filed anti-harassment orders against me over this one isloated incident. And a friend informed me that they are now in a “relationship.” I don’t know what to do. I feel its malicious on his part and that he wants to get back at me for telling her by having the sheriff serve me papers while I’m at work (for the embarassment factor) and he knows that I am a gun enthusiast who Target shoots frequently and this order would take away my gun rights. Im broke too because he moved out the day before the mortgage was due. Help? Advice?

    • Meg–did you save all the texts? and any other evidence? STAY NC with both of them; they don’t have a case unless you re-contact them. And anti-harassment is not the same as a restraining order (but I don’t think they have sufficient grounds for harassment, esp. if the woman kept texting you for information). It’s a scare tactic, but line up all your evidence, and write down the story in a journal as it happened that night. Hugs.

  • I wish someone had written me a letter to let me know my husband was cheating with his also married secretary. I would have done things differently. They both got financially ready so they could both leave their respective spouses and move in together. Still in divorce proceedings now because they have been so good at hiding everything. I loved my husband and trusted him more than any person I knew. He left me broken and I was shocked and I’m still hurting. I believe that if someone had let me know I could have even saved my marriage but no one had the balls to do that and everyone knew except me.

  • I too am the OW and I too want to out my cheater. I waited several months after we (mutually) ended it so that I could have some emotional distance. I don’t miss him anymore, I don’t think fondly of him anymore. And now I’ve written a letter to his wife. But I’m not doing it for her. I don’t know her and it would be presumptuous of me to think that she would want me to tell her. I’m doing it for ME! The cycles have been going on for 18 months now and I want to be sure the whole things stops. I don’t care if they both hate me.

    Mine lied to me about being divorced for months, stalked me on dating sites after I found out and left the situation, and then drew me into having an affair (drew me in twice, actually) months later. I don’t like the way he treated me before or after I knew he was married. He would refuse to see how twisted his behavior was no matter how many times I tried to explain. So, I am done. He is an a-hole. His wife should know and I will tell her. If she wants to continue, she needs to keep him on a leash because he is a predator.

    • Oh and I am not the first affair he has had. If I understand correctly (he never explained) when we met his wife had kicked him out for cheating. She then wanted to reconcile and that is where my affair with him comes in. So, serial cheater who tells me he’s divorced when he’s not.

    • Exactly. The complexity is ridiculous but it is because of the secrecy, which mine liked to refer to as ‘privacy’ – ‘I’m a private person,’ he’d say. ‘No,’ I’d say, ‘you’re secretive’. There is a difference. Mine was a master at compartmentalization, secret email addresses, lies, intermittent reinforcement, and all the rest. If the wife doesn’t know this after however many decades of marriage then she is part of the problem. It is not my fault (nor is your situation your fault) but if it makes them feel better I’m happy to take the blame for shedding some sunlight on the rot. I have nothing to hide and neither do you.

      • Hi OW Sadly (don’t be sad!), I have never met anyone like my narc (which is what I call him). Oddest person. Zero empathy. He too fit all of the criteria from hoovering to triangulation to controlling and I was also ignorant about what a true narcissist was. I actually figured it out when I was watching a TV series about a murderous psychopath. Mine is not malignant but still, a light bulb went off in my head and I started Googling like crazy.

        Something in me obviously liked the challenge. For instance, he gave me a fake name when we first met. A few months later (long story, but we were both traveling and didn’t see each other that much back then), I figured out who he was and where he worked. He didn’t care. Didn’t even ask me how I’d found out!

        But he was also kind of dumb because our kids went to the same school (different times but they are close in age), and once I knew he was married, and who he was married to, he STILL wanted to have an affair. From his point of view, he wasn’t treating me badly because had he been consciously abusing me he would have feared I would tell his wife. That’s part of the twistedness of the whole thing. In any case, how they think they are treating someone is not a question to ask a narc, since they have no sense that anyone exists outside of themselves.

        But I liked his naivete and when the mask would slip he could be very sweet. He is also funny and very, very smart intellectually (not streetwise, obviously). And all that is what would draw me back. We liked talking to each other – picking each other’s brains, and the chemistry was intense (sorry wives, but that is part of the attraction). But he would also suddenly disappear, often in the middle of a conversation (a lot of our communication was over email – I have 3000 emails between us!). He would pull the rug out from under me and cause me huge anxiety attacks. I was constantly in fight or flight mode. He knew all of this. I held nothing back.

        But what you say OW Sadly is true. In the end, we want whoever we are with in whatever capacity to be loving and considerate. Impossible with these types. His wife is getting the same treatment. He lied to me for 8 months and then he lied to her for 7 months. None of us are special. We are all interchangeable. We are only supply to the narcissist.

        I have not yet sent the letter, to answer your question. I’ve been trying to strike the right tone – just give the facts without any editorializing/opinions and without too many details but enough so she knows I am not lying. He does not know that I know his address, so I do believe it will be a surprise. I am not signing the letter or giving her my contact details because I do not want anyone to be able to accuse me of harassment. I told her that she is free to contact me, but she’ll have to get the information from him.

        My feeling is that lying to someone takes away their ability to make decisions for themselves. I hate being lied to and I see her (on Instagram) not yet wearing her wedding ring again because she is obviously waiting for the big moment when she thinks she can trust him again. They’ve been ‘reconciled’ for a year. He was sleeping with me while they were in marital counseling (just like the chump ladies on this board have warned about). I didn’t know they were in counseling and when he mentioned it, I looked at him like, are you crazy? Do you feel nothing? It all kind of breaks my heart, to be honest.

        In any case, anything I think about them and their relationship is speculation. She might know the story (I doubt it because he thinks he can control the universe) or he might have told her that I am someone from the past who is ‘stalking’ him (more likely, if he said anything).

        I want her to have the information so that she can make the right decision for herself. Also, we did not use condoms (another narc habit) and I have no idea who else he slept with or who he might be sleeping with when he is with her. I’ve been checked and I am fine but she has the right to know what her husband is up to and to protect herself.

        Whatever happens is not up to me and I don’t hope for any particular outcome. As I said, I am doing it for myself, so the cycles end.

        And yes to the new year. I cannot go through another year of this and I fear that he will reappear as he’s been creeping me on the internet for months now.

        • Just to add – I never wanted him to leave her and I told him so. For my own reasons, I did not want a real relationship (though I did want affection, friendship and love). I am not trying to break them up so that he’ll come to me. I’m not angry that he is with her. I am angry about the way he is treating both of us.

      • Hi OW Sadly, Our conversation got me thinking. I changed my mind (for now) about the letter because I think I have to be more honest with myself. The truth is that I miss him and it would be easier for me if he were dead. But since he isn’t, the next best thing is to metaphorically kill him! 🙂 I had lunch with a friend today and we were discussing this sort of situation. She has gone back and forth with a married man but her attitude is much different from mine. From her point of view, the married couple is unhappy, and she is glad she is not part of that. She also pointed out that some men are ‘family men’ and she is not a family person. Neither am I. I have a son but I don’t do the whole marriage thing very well and I’m not interested. A lot of men need that structure and are afraid of losing it. That describes mine to a T. The fear means we aren’t compatible anyway, it shows a weakness in him (from my point of view – I realize that the wives on here, if they are reading this, might not agree) and if that fear is greater than the desire to be with me – that is, if he cannot be with me without fear – then so be it. I recognize what he’s built over the years with someone else and I have to acknowledge his conscience (the little bit that he has) and the shame/guilt that he might feel, without making it all about me, because it isn’t. It has nothing to do with me. I also cannot meet some significant needs he has (other ones I can meet, of course). Also, I realized that the last interaction we had was one in which I was super angry. But I was being self-righteous. It all stemmed from an argument from the previous month when, again, I wasn’t honest. I should have just said what I felt instead of being all defensive when I sensed he was dismissive. Instead of saying I was disappointed not to see him, I attacked him for stringing me along for days, which, in turn, made him defensive. I might even break my no contact to tell him this – to basically apologize for leaving on such a sour note and to tell him that I do miss him (but I won’t see him or carry on endless email conversations). So you see, it seems I had something of a breakthrough, in part because of my conversation with you and the questions you asked and your gentle attitude. I still feel the way I stated about the lying but I also know that I am not blameless for the whole situation. I don’t want to be angry anymore. Thank you.

        P.S. He’s checked one of my social networking sites quite a lot the past few months when we’ve not been in contact, and I just noticed another instance of it from a week ago. I know he misses me too but he won’t reach out because of the way we left things with me attacking him.

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