Dear Chump Lady, Why do cheaters all work from the same script?

I think all of us chumps work from the same script too, at least we do until we find Chump Lady and finally come to our senses. That’s the thing about being a good person, we just don’t want to admit that the people we shared our lives with have hurt us on purpose. We want to figure it out and make sense of the utterly senseless! But, as Chump Lady rightly says, it’s not for us to figure out. Chumps have been trying to figure this shit out since the dawn of time. The only thing to do is swallow the red pill (or is it a blue pill?) and accept the cold, hard truth: the people we loved hurt us, and they absolutely, positively, 100% meant to do it. It wasn’t a lapse in judgment, it wasn’t because you don’t wear matching bra and panties from Agent Provocateur every day, and it certainly wasn’t because daddy didn’t give them enough hugs as a child. I grew up with an alcoholic father too, and not once has that fact caused me to grievously harm the people I love. They cheat because they want to, because they think they can, because they are so sure of their own utter fabulousity, and because they are so sure that you will simply take it like the good little chump that you are. So, even though it’s tempting to wonder why (and you’re not alone, I think every chump has had these thoughts) you should refocus your energy on more worthy causes, like yourself and your kids. Lead by example, show your kids that bad decisions have bad consequences, and take immense pride and pleasure in the knowledge that you are a GOOD and KIND and DECENT human being. And now you’re cheater-free as well. You win. We all won! Thank you for everything Chump Lady, and thank you to every other chump out there xx

About a month after dday, I was at the doctor’s office because I couldn’t sleep and had lost almost 15 pounds. Flipping through Esquire magazine I saw an article on how to cheat on your wife with fake email accounts, throw away phones, dinner meetings with “out of town clients” & suave lines to use on the suspecting, etc. I nearly fainted in the waiting room as my ex appeared to have followed it like a playbook. It was probably meant to be tongue & cheek but I’ve never seen articles like that in womens’ magazines.

Dear Staying Strong,

My first comment—Listen to CL’s answer #2 especially.

Now, the other queries—-Satan himself wrote The Script!

As for how to work with your children—

While my son was growing up, I did a lot of what can be termed ‘damage control’. Whenever his Dad would get freaky and flaky, I would remind my son the correct way people should treat one another, reminded him of what the Scriptures say about the loving and proper relationship in marriage and generally all-around tried my best to model sane, kind, loving conduct.

Of course, I did teach him the scriptures in between ‘blow-outs’, so that he was learning fine things in peaceful times, not just when his Dad would go crazy! He also had other good role models in his life.

He is naturally very intelligent, but also very smart, perceptive and so on. So, he saw the bad results of his Dad’s conduct. He determined at a young age to be different. And, he is! My son is a grown man and has continued to be a kind, honest, loving, empathetic, compassionate human, with a fine reputation amongst his peers, older ones and the business community. (And, does not cheat on his wife or abuse her!)

As he was growing up, I always showed him that he shared this planet with billions of other humans, the world did not revolve around him. Yet, all of us are special, precious & unique individuals; not one of us will ever be just like another. The balance—yes, that is a challenge!

I also told him & showed him that because of my love for him, what he had to say and what was going on in his life was always important to me. However, sometimes what was up with him was not THE MOST important thing. Always taught him to love and care for others.

As for what shapes these narcs—-there are several good books and on-line resources, if you are still curious. One I enjoyed: “Enough About You—Let’s Talk About Me”. I believe the author is Les Carter.

This comment by mom9193 is a pretty good summary: “Love your children — don’t live vicariously through them or worship them!”

Also, as Tracy mentioned, Dr, George Simon is about the wisest expert on character disorders. He has books and a web-site, manipulativepeople.

In my cheater’s case, he was the neglected, middle child. He observed his dad’s alcoholic rages. His mom spent all her time & energy dealing with and deflecting dad’s horrific behavior and had no time let for him. So, it can be several different scenarios that trigger a full-blown character disorder.

Am sure you will get lots of helpful feed back from The Nation!

ForgeOn, Staying Strong…..ForgeOn, Nation…..

Ooh, ooh, ooh!! Hand up!! Thesis alert!

Long before D-day, I thought long & hard about what makes a non-empathetic narcissist (as I knew I was married to one, didn’t want my children to become narcs, and I teach parenting in my developmental psych. classes). And I’ve explored the research on narcissism, attachment, parenting styles, etc. The Cliff Note version of these endeavors, in hopes it can help anyone:

1. Lack of empathy & narcissism comes about from one of two diametrically opposed ways of being raised–(a) harsh treatment & lack of affection; or (b) overindulgence of a child, with few consequences for bad behavior.
People on this forum have already documented STBXs who are spoiled brats, used to being praised for putting on their shoes. I think these children are also, at most, talked to about their bad behavior but never punished (or are threatened with punishment that is never followed through on–Larzelere found that this strategy was the one MOST likely to lead to worse behavior in the future). Well, it turns out there are two different brain paths for discipline–one for reasoning, one for determining the consequences of actions. Both strategies–reasoning AND consequences are necessary for full moral development. If a child is only talked to about their bad behavior, with few punishments ever, they become master negotiators, able to talk their way out of offenses with charm, but never truly learn to behave better (and in fact, getting out of things with charm becomes its own reinforcement, so that strategy of talking one’s way out of thing actually intensifies).
But children who grow up without love and affection (as in the Romanian orphanages, or neglected/abused children everywhere) are also more prone to lack of empathy and sociopathy. They have no role models, no emotional health, and have learned to survive by taking what they need on a short-term basis. Other people become mere pawns in their survival and pleasure-seeking game, and they exhibit no remorse when they hurt other people.

2. Physical affection & Responsiveness–Hug your little monsters!! Lots!! There is a growing consensus that physical touch is half of the recipe for secure attachment. The other half is responsiveness; children learn empathy and concern for others by seeing their parents & role models do it. Modeling is a more important learning tool than reasoning.

3. There is some evidence empathy has a genetic component, but it can be taught if children are encouraged to be empathetic from at least 1 year of age (haven’t learned empathy by age 6–probably too late).

4. And so as not to blame parents for EVERYTHING, narcissists typically intensify over time: kids who are successful at using charm as a way to escape punishment; in children (and adults) who are attractive, wealthy, highly intelligent and thus used to getting perks for their very being in the world, self-centeredness starts to snowball (it feels GOOD!!)–the difficult 20-year old starts to intensify narc qualities, and ends up a monster by 50.

5. To avoid future chumps (those with overactive empathy modules)–train them to pay attention to warning signs, and NOT to tolerate bad behavior from others, even when it’s subtle. A former boyfriend (a mega-narc) had someone break up with him on the second date because he repeated a small criticism of her. That’s the spirit!! Wish I had done that.

Has anyone also been told to be appreciative of what youget? Or that catching them in a lie is victimizing yourself? I got both and was made to feel sooo ungrateful for anything/everything he has done for me. And victimizing myself for keeping quiet about his lie until I felt it was the right time to bring it out? How Was that victimizing myself? What?

From what I have gathered trying to figure it out; narcissism is a genetic thing, their brains are wired differently, they don’t feel empathy, ie no guilt, so they are free to do as they want when they want without ever losing a minute of sleep over the damage they cause. Where the parenting comes into play is how they learn to function in society. Because they don’t have feelings like the rest of the world they learn at an early age to imitate the emotions of others, so if they are abused as children they could be more openly abusive but if they were raised in a loving home they would be better at hiding their deficiency. If they were raised in a home with an abusive father they would be more likely to be abusive themselves because they see it as acceptable whereas if they were raised abuse is wrong they might not be as obvious in their abuse and stick to the emotional type of abuse or white collar crime.

My ex was adopted by very Christian people and they told me that he was always “different” always broke the rules, always on the edge of what was legal, but they didn’t want to break his “spirit” and his mom always thought she could love him enough and pray hard enough to change him and he played her like a fiddle; using religion to manipulate her when it suited his purposes. I think his dad was on to him more and as long as his dad was alive he could keep him in line to some degree but two weeks after his dad died was the first time he hit me and it went steadily downhill after that.

My ex could talk himself out of any situation, I am amazed no one has killed him or that he hasn’t done time behind bars but he plays the dumb Saskatchewan farm boy role so well he gets off every time.

They are usually highly intelligent which is a scary combination but like any child born with a “disability” they usually have some other heightened talent to compensate. Like a blind/deaf child will be a concert pianist. A narcissist is given the brains to make up for it but he uses it for evil and not good.
We often hear that the narcissist was abused as a child but I think sometimes they are abused because they are so difficult to handle as children and a parent with a tendency to be abusive would lose it on the kid. My ex’s parents were brought to the edge with him many times, he even told me about a time his dad pulled the car over, got out and looked to the heavens and prayed, “Why me God?” out of frustration.

1) There are only so many ways you can say; “You know a lot of people live together after they divorce” or to tell you they don’t love you. After I read some books on manipulation I totally agree with CL, there are only so many ways to manipulate a person.

2) I don’t really give a flying fuck whyyyyyyy cheater did it… However, I DO own a flying fuck, I highly recommend it, lots of fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoqE_zKxQe8

3) I don’t have kids – what CL said, what Tempest said, and lots more comments, all very good. The only thing I’d emphasize is to teach your children boundaries, they should know what the word means and how to deal with those that won’t respect them. Learning to see the subtle crossings of the boundaries is key to not becoming a chump, relentless tiny crossings erode your boundaries if you make excuses for them. And to teach them boundaries you have to respect your own child’s boundaries…

I was thinking about how to improve my picker and realized he never complimented on the way Iooked unless you count a circular ass rub paired with, “you look good”. It was his narc way of initiating sex.

He always looked for ways to improve his pecker with his porn addiction and looking at teenagers through his sunglasses.

In the end his pecker and my picker were misaligned. I could have continued to pretend he was good in bed but his pecker was too small and there was never intimacy.

He is penis picked a whore. Glad I passed the torch.

Arnold,
again…lets looks at the character of the cheater…they want sympathy and understanding…they are speaking to their people!!! And all the little cheaters are saying “Mine too! ” “I hated those fucking fuzzy slippers and the way she talked baby talk to the dog” ” He always left the toilet seat up like I didnt exist”
They are speaking to their people!! and let em have at it. Only a cheat could understand a cheat and likewise a chump for a chump.

When I asked my Ex, why didn’t you just tell me you wanted out? Why did you just sit me down so we could have the difficult conversation.

His response: Well, I was afraid because you have a temper.

I was incredulous. If anyone had a temper in our marriage it was him!

I don’t know if this is called ‘blame shifting’ or ‘false equivalencies’ — maybe it’s both!

Little Miss Stripper
Sat on his zipper
Eating up his words; she was his prey
Along came the liar
And sat down beside her
And (ultimately) frightened Miss Stripper away!

At the suggestion of this website, I read the book “Why Is It Always About You?” which is so, so good for people involved with (partner, employer, parent of . . .) someone with NPD. It does delve a little into what precipitates a person with NPD. I found very interesting the notion that it often has to do with a failure to learn to integrate the emotion of shame as a child. Shame is a natural and powerful emotion we feel when we do something wrong – and for a good reason! It helps us avoid that behavior in the future, make better choices. (…setting aside dynamics here, where children are shamed for horrible reasons, of course. Those create different disorders altogether :-(. ) For future NPD types, they often do not figure out how to incorporate shame into their thinking process. Whether it’s a failure of hardwiring, whether parenting style encouraged protecting them from the consequences of smaller, childhood type mistakes – who’s to say. But they begin to learn to ignore shame early on, just stuff it away – with predictable consequences in adult life. If you never feel sorry for your behavior, you’ll do just about whatever you please.

In my own ex’s case, this descriptor fits him to a T. He was a bit of a golden child in his family. He rose fast and with much praise in his professional life, too. Furthermore, he has some serious PTSD stuff related to work events in the past. I actually think that NPD types are at VERY high risk for PTSD – I’d love to see a longitudinal study of that, perhaps in soldiers or cops. If one thinks so highly of oneself that All Things Are Possible, Always – then when confronted with a very serious, traumatic event where a bad outcome was inevitable (ie, a battle scene or a rescue gone badly) – it creates a great deal of inner conflict, the reality that there was no way to “do it well” and the inner belief that one “always” does everything fantastically (NPD stuff.) Normal people are certainly traumatized by awful events, but we don’t also believe we “could” have (or “should” have) been able to do any better – we understand what was out of our control, and recover accordingly. I think NPD types can’t grasp that, and PTSD is the inevitable result. (…I think healthy people also get PTSD, obviously – my point is just that I think NPD might be a huge risk factor, and I’d love to see a correlated study about that.)

My ex’s version of events is that he was miserable (probably true enough, though he didn’t seek care for decades, to include additional trauma) and so “had” to do something to make himself feel better. He could see that once upon a time, I made him happy – so “obviously” if he was unhappy, it was because I didn’t love him anymore and had quite “trying” to make him happy. Obviously, that was justification to cheat, because cheating feels AWESOME, right? (Nevermind that he could not cite a single thing that I didn’t do for him, nor what action or gesture or words from me *would* have made him happy.) Repeatedly, over the entire course of our marriage. (I never knew until the very end, I seriously had no idea – and I’m no dummy, either – I simply believed what he told me. His job did in fact have him dashing off at odd hours, etc.) He cost me my uterus and one ovary, and let me think it was probably cancer for some time – even made me go to the oncologist alone because he was “out of town.” (Shacked up in a hotel locally…) Thank G-d it wasn’t cancer, but there’s only one other thing that causes that much scarring – infection.

Oh, and one of the things making him So Sad?? We didn’t have enough kids. Sorry the two Ivy Leaguers I gave him weren’t enough. Sorry you gave me total infertility. I’m sure the now-pregnant foreign nanny 15 years his junior is going to fulfill all his magic dreams of happiness. Good luck with that. Hope she knows to get more than a single annual screens for STI’s. Oh, hey, her first kid is already getting suspended in first grade? That’s such a shame. I’m sure it has nothing to do with her excellent mothering.

My current partner suffered horrible abuse as a child, both physical and emotional. It stunted so much of his development – yet he made a very, very conscious decision to be someone else. He had a great military enlistment, decided to get out and go to college, and has an impressive professional engineering career now. His first marriage ended amicably in divorce, and he and his ex have co-parented a WONDERFUL young lady. He struggles with some behaviors and cognition common to abuse victims, and has worked SO SO hard (and continues to work) to make changes. I mention this part 1) as Yet Another Life Is Better After Dumping a Cheater testimony :-)!! and 2) just as an anecdote for counterpoint to my ex’s story – trauma need not create an awful human being. My partner struggles, but he is not disordered in the Personality Disorder, Axis 2 way. Recovery is clearly and impressively happening, and it’s a beautiful thing to watch. He displays genuine empathy, and tries very hard to Figure Me Out. My ex never actually gave a crap about me, unless it dovetailed with Caring About Him.