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UBT My Husband’s Craigslist Ad

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mrNiceGuyThe Universal Bullshit Translator (UBT) gets some weird submissions, but this one stood out. Chumpified shared her husband’s Craigslist ad. Or, excuse me, one of them. Not everyone can craft such 50 Shades of Schlock, ladies. Stand in line.

Chumpified writes:

I thought it’d be fun to share with you just one (out of hundreds) of Craigslist ads my husband has been posting for the past ten years. By the way, my cheater is 5’8″ on a good day, receding hair line, 41 years old (not the 38 he claims in the ad) and slightly overweight with a fair amount of moobs (man boobs).

Enjoy! PS: I hate craigslist, but mostly I hate my sicko husband.

Kissed and Spanked, Adored and Dominated
I miss the perfection of that perfect trust. Being kissed as I put the shackles on, arms bound behind back. The look of wonderment in sub’s eyes. The feel of sub’s breath speed up as I grabbed sub’s hair from behind, pulling her ear close to my lips so I could whisper “you’re such a good girl” as my hand cupped and fondled her breast, pulling and teasing her nipple.

I miss the perfection of warmth, body against body, hard against soft, both hot and wet, drenched in perfect craving fulfilled. I miss the collar going around neck, on your hands and knees now, led like an erotic animal, fucked like one, on the floor with your collar and leash. Then led to the couch where I sat, pulling your lips onto my cock. I’ve never adored anyone this much. Despite my harshness you had my heart. But my heart is mine again. And I’ll let the perfect sub play with it again as I play with her. In doing so the circle is complete, and our trust in each other is earned.

Very real. Will meet if there’s chemistry. Not into games, into being real. Attached so discretion required.

Txt me xxx-xxx-xxxx. Say “spank me” so I know you’re real.

Me – 5’10”, athletic, blonde hair, blue eyes, in shape, workout, D&D free, non smoker

Wow, Chumpified. Before I unleash the UBT, may I just suggest that a guy who posts hundreds of Craigslist ads without your knowledge or consent might best be known as your EX-husband? Hope you’ve had the full array of STD screenings and made the lawyer appointments.

Also, before the UBT eviscerates this submission, I’d just like to say for the record, I have nothing against consensual kink. Dirty talk, spanking, dangling from trapezees, whatever. I do, however, object to cheaters and misogyny.

Onward to the UBT…

Kissed and Spanked, Adored and Dominated

Kittens and Handcuffs, Sunshine and Incarceration

Applesauce and Cyanide, Puppies and Pistol-whipping…

I miss the perfection of that perfect trust.

I’m a stranger who would like to choke you, but you can trust me.

Being kissed as I put the shackles on, arms bound behind back.

Yes, if I shackle someone, I expect a kiss.

Armed ties behind your back, you’re defenseless against my halitosis.

The look of wonderment in sub’s eyes.

Everyone I fuck has the same look — wonderment. When the date rape drugs wear off, that is.

The feel of sub’s breath speed up as I grabbed sub’s hair from behind, pulling her ear close to my lips so I could whisper “you’re such a good girl” as my hand cupped and fondled her breast, pulling and teasing her nipple.

I earnestly believe that my feeble attempt at 50 Shades of Grey seduction prose will make a total stranger have high-risk, kinky sex with me for free. Because I’m that delusional. And that cheap.

I miss the perfection of warmth, body against body, hard against soft, both hot and wet, drenched in perfect craving fulfilled.

Sorry, the UBT has dissolved into fits of giggles.

“Drenched in perfect craving fulfilled”? Huh? Is that like when football players pour Gatorade over each others’ heads? What is the imagery here supposed to convey exactly? Cravings don’t drench. This makes no sense. Did you just chop up a Harlequin romance, shake it up in a jar, and jumble random sentences together?

And what’s with all this “I miss” shit? What happened to your last “perfect” partner that you miss her? Let me guess, she’s buried under your floorboards.

I miss the collar going around neck, on your hands and knees now, led like an erotic animal, fucked like one, on the floor with your collar and leash.

For the record, and for your future health screenings, you should know I fuck animals too.

Okay, just the erotic ones.

Then led to the couch where I sat, pulling your lips onto my cock. I’ve never adored anyone this much.

Do it for the adoration. That’s really all it takes, ladies — let me shackle you, and force you to blow me, and in exchange I’ll “adore you.” Well, at least until the next dim-witted person answers my ads.

Despite my harshness you had my heart. But my heart is mine again.

I don’t really have a heart.

And I’ll let the perfect sub play with it again as I play with her. In doing so the circle is complete, and our trust in each other is earned.

Because that’s how we learn to trust each other. I shackle you, you don’t report me to the authorities. Or my wife.

Other people, lesser people, they have these quaint notions that to trust someone you need to spend a lot of time around them, observe their character, judge their behavior, and exchange trivialities like actual names. Pish posh!

Very real. Will meet if there’s chemistry. Not into games, into being real. Attached so discretion required.

I’m so real and authentic, I have a double life. Don’t tell my wife. That’s how real I am.

Txt me xxx-xxx-xxxx. Say “spank me” so I know you’re real.

Me – 5’10”, athletic, blonde hair, blue eyes, in shape, workout, D&D free, non smoker

I’m not 5’10” or athletic, or actually “real.” I’m a creepy man who wants to act out misogynist fantasies on strangers.

But you can trust me.

Text “spank me” so I know you’re my next victim perfect love.

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
        • Chumpified, you were me six years ago!!!!!!!!!!!! I was happily married (or so I thought) and 7 months pregnant !!!!!! with our third daughter when my now ex husband went to the movies with his bestie. I sent down to the computer and he’s left up his email. At first glance, there are hundreds of emails back and forth to a woman named Amy. We don’t know an Amy. I click on just one and its bj’s in a hotel room. I spent the next two hours clicking away and forwarding, clicking and forwarding. He had this whole secret life. Yes he had an affair with Amy, a woman almost 300 lbs and a good 10 or 15 years older than me, our entire marriage and he was doing this EXACT thing on craigslist. My husband had something called a humilation fetish. S and M but he would humilate them. He would make them eat dog food and pee on them and other horrible, horrible, horrible stuff. Yes I had to get STD testing 7 months pregnant and yes I was at the lawyer’s office as soon as I was released from the hospital. I had pre-ecalmpsia and the stress send my blood pressure sky high. I was SHOCKED. I had NO IDEA. and this is the father of my children. I found ads like this and worse, way way way worse. Six years later I’m here for a different fellow he has broken my heart but YEP, your life was my life and I divorced his skank ass.

    • The thing is after hundreds of ads on Craigs List and ten years he has found something that works for him. I can only assume that he has identified a market and is exploiting said market. My question is how many women that read his ads would be intrigued to the point of responding to them? Apparently enough to keep him busy for ten years. My other question would be, what on earth has supressed this woman’s self-esteem to the point of putting up with this travesty of a man for the past ten years?
      His modus operandi is the degradation of women; I can only assume the women he hooks up with get off on that. His wife for instance. Ten years?

      • His (ex) wife hates him. Submission is not Consent. Some men lead double lives. Perhaps his wife had no clue that he was deranged. (Dennis Rader in Wichita is one example. He got off on murder, and no one close to him knew)

      • I discovered all of this just over the past 2 months. I don’t know how he was able to hide it from me, all I can say is he is a master manipulator. I am running for my life, trust me.

            • Also, it’s a gradual thing sometimes. Chumpified just discovered it. I was gradually desensitized to it and disassociated myself while it was happening. Only after DDay and finally telling people about the secret stuff he did, did I admit to myself that it was abuse.

              • Bingo to the above. The duplicity can be so utterly convincing that you spend time in Disbelieve Land, unable to believe until you go all FBI and begin connecting the dots. Holy Cow.

        • Yes, please run as quickly as possible! My heart goes out to you! I can only imagine how you must be feeling, It is hard enough to survive this process with a “normal” cheater but to have to find out that your husband has been doing all this disgusting stuff behind your back and risking your life for ten years is beyond me (though what chumps tell us about cheaters on CL never ceases to surprise me). Please take care of your mental and physical health ASAP…the only good thing about this is that you will have zero temptations to do the “pick me dance” and hopium will not ignite its fumes for you. Just think, your recovery will be very quick (after you get over how two sided he was) because there is nothing there that you want to recover from this sicko.

        • In a previous reply, you mentioned that you only learned of this two months ago, and I just wanted to say I’m so sorry, Chumpified. ((HUGS))

          This past January, I recently learned my ex was not the same person I thought either, and I’m still struggling to believe it’s all not just some awful nightmare.

          • ….just 6 weeks ago for me. Most nights I wake up between 2 and 4am hoping it was all a bad dream. It never is.

        • Don’t feel bad about not knowing. I dated mfpos for 3 years, was married to the perverted fuck for 6 before I caught him with his pants down. These creeps are such perfect liars and manipulators. What is frightening to me, is now sick your husband’s ads are. And he obviously has takers. It gives me chills. Run. I mean it. RUN. This guy is a special kind of fucked up. As Steve Miller said “go on take the money and RUN!” Good luck and come here for support!

            • “Chumped” is our common bond here, the “secrets” our Narc’s hide are also a part of that facade. People can get away with an unbelievable amount of bullshit when no one is looking for it and some people are more twisted than others.

              Chumpified, my heart TRULY goes out to you, I can’t begin to imagine how horrific this has been for you to discover after so many years, it’s wretched finding out that we never really knew our significant others.

              I know that I now wonder WHAT mine might have been capable of on top of what he has already shown.

              Sending hugs and some good juju your way 🙂

          • The profiles I found weren’t quite that raunchy, but raunchy enough to know that the women that answered them were WAY, WAY, WAY low-class. To realize I vicariously slept with those skanks was horrifying.

            Chumpified……wow……just, Wow!

        • Chumpified–don’t feel bad about not knowing. A well-meaning friend nonetheless asked me “How did you not suspect?” when my X had an affair with a grad-student 8 years ago, took her to Mexico with him for a conference, and was by his side as he called me to ask for a divorce (he changed his mind a week later and ditched her). I JUST found out about the affair 9/11/14, and about the Mexico trip 3 days ago. Despite the fact that I used to be the interrogator (supervisor) in a drug rehab center for teenagers years ago–and I was good at getting information out of those teens.

          When you have no conscience, lying is easy and you can convince chumps pretty easily that you’re normal.

        • I don’t know why people are shocked that people don’t know about their spouse’s double lives. I had no idea my ex was cheating for years. I loved him, I trusted him, I don’t think along those lines. When you’re married to a normal person I imagine it’s easy to hide what you’re up to.

      • That strikes me as a little harsh. Most of us here have been chumped by someone who we thought was very different, and she is no exception. But she is here among us, making her exit, and snickering at her cheater’s BS. I think she is mighty and deserves our support and applause for kicking this guy to the curb! Well done!!

      • Bigsyrb, all cheaters degrade women. Why do they do it? Most are narcs. Why do we put up with it? Blame shifting, reconciling because you love them and many other reasons.

    • When I first read your letter I was so appalled that I responded too quickly. I apologize. I do not know yourcircumstances. You may not be able to leave the marriage due to finances or other issues. If possible you need to speak to an attorney as soon as you are able. From your letter we know that he has been trolling on Craig’s list since he was 30 or 31. That means most of your marriage. This man is not someone that can be fixed. There is no medication for him. He is so troubled and so disordered that he has brought horror into your life. All of us who responded are horrified on your behalf. You can find help with a good attorney, a good therapist and possibly even at a women’s shelter. I hope if there are children they are not exposed to him and his behavior.
      I spend some time looking at blogs and have found there to be many women who are cheating with married man. They found each other on craigslist. These women are either bragging or mourning, but in most cases they appear to be somewhat disordered. It is sickening to realize just how many men and women lie so easily to their partners. Husbands and wives should be able to trust the person they are married to more than any other person on earth. So my question to you is, does he know that you know? If he is so emeshed in his fantasy life that he does not care that you know you do not have a marriage. In fact, you really never had a marriage. Marriage is between two adults. Your husband never made it out of infancy. He sounds like a very scary person.
      I read an article in a magazine several years ago supposedly written by a man who cheats all the time on his wife. About halfway through the article I realized it was all a lie. There is no way that man held down a job, spent that much time in hotel rooms, and still made time for a marriage. As humans all of us have a fantasy life but we hope that the person we trust most in this world has one that is not as sick as your husband’s.

      • Yes he knows I’ve discovered everything. I became a super sleuth to find it all but alas, the cat is out of the bag. Now I’m just trying to get out before I punch him repeatedly in his smug, narc face.

        • I don’t know–I’d be tempted to punch him before you leave. After all he’s done to those 31 women, turnabout seems fair play.

          • After all he’s done WITH those 31 women. Every last one of them knew what they were signing up for, and got exactly what they wanted. My cheater’s 7-year slut was perfectly content to be his “sub on the side” until he dumped her on dday. Only then did she start ranting about how he “abused” her and lied to her and “cheated” on her with other subs.

            Punch him for your own sake, Chumpified, but no one on this site should spare a thought for the morons who answer the Craigslist ads published by other cheating morons.

            • Kristen: I agree–WITH those women (see my rant on the forums a week ago about the APs having responsibility for the infidelity). I was just picturing what he did “to” them since they were tied up.

              • Call me crazy but I have difficulty buying used furniture off of Craig’s list let alone looking for a sex partner. Seriously, how bent do you have to be to respond to these creeps? Yuck.

  • ROFL …. (yet again! :-D) …. honestly Tracy, I’d love to spend an afternoon over coffee with you taking the piss out of ‘The Great I Am’ … It would gladden my heart! 😀

    Keep on with your snarky self, you kill me! 😀

  • UBT is VERY VERY funny – just spat tea out at ‘buried under your floorboards’. Need an app for it – get on it CL. 😉 x

    • Actually, there is such an application for certain dating sites, called the Bullshit2English filter, mostly for the hilarious justification of misogyny that are the low-effort writing efforts on there.

      One example translation:

      // The first thing people notice about me is my eyes!
      “my eyes”: “the howling void where anything remotely noticeable might have been”,

      The source code, with further translations, is here: http://userscripts-mirror.org/scripts/review/125481

      However, such things could be adapted to something more.

      It’s as simple as a regex filter and a submission form. Would an add-on work?

  • Tracy this is off subject a little but, have you ever considered going to major cities across the United States for seminars for your chump followers ? You see , chumps like me would be willing to pay to go to a seminar where you could give one on one personal advice and bullshit translations. The ticket cost for the 200 women that would certainly attend per city would well cover your flight cost , your hotel and a over nice profit for you. Something I wish you would think about seriously. You truly have a gift.

      • Yes quicksilver you are so right! Since I have been on CL I always tell women who say to me “all men are cheaters” or something of the sort, that actually, for every heterosexual male cheater there is at least one woman (OW) who participates in the affair. Plus many male chumps not only have to go through the same hell that female chumps do, but often also have to endure the cheater getting full custody of their children just because they are the mothers.

        • Yes, run like the wind! That he passed. On the couch. Where he sat. Was that supposed to be enticing or just sad?

      • Count me in if Chump Lady ever holds an event! The unfortunate thing is she would play to a full house! WTF has happened to our society to make that possible???

    • Guess it has already been said, but I do find it interesting how many folks just, naturally, go the default position that the betrayed is female. Says something about the biases many folks have. I have read that women cheat just about as frequently as men, and some studies have shown in a certain age bracket, more than men.

      • I think women just talk about it more. I know several women who have cheated. I think men tend to be more embarrassed to discuss it because of the biases you mention. It’s not fair Arnold. Nothing about this is fair. So sorry.

        • Yes, Nicole, it all sucks. I think knowing the pain we have all been through, it makes me even sadder when I see the divisive, misandry or misogyny that some betrayeds display. I mean we are all united by this trauma that we have been through and when a betrayed of either gender sees the vitriol agains this or her own gender, it causes more pain.

          • I empathize with that. It is assumed by many (men especially) that when a man leaves his wife for another woman, it is because his wife was a frigid prude or a nagging shrew when that is usually not the case at all. It hurts! But I try not to care because the people who really know me, know the truth. It has taught me not to assume anything about anyone. I don’t think women on here think all men are like this Craigslist weirdo, just the cheater types, but I can see why you have been further hurt. I’ve noticed Surviving Infidelity has a lot more betrayed men on it, maybe that wouldn’t be so offensive to you.

          • I hear you, Arnold. The MOW of my Mr. serial Cheater Pants is a serial cheater herself. Regardless of gender, these people suck.

        • Yes Arnold , often times when it involves the husband cheating usually children are affected by abandonment and economic hardship and and less time with BOTH parents . When the wife is the cheater, children are affected by abandonment, economic hardship and less time with both parents. Sad…

      • My ex once said he would have never taken me back had the roles been reversed. Just another thing that crept to the surface. I could make a flip calendar with narc quotes for every day for at least 10 years.

    • Kim……I brought this up to CL in July 2014! I didn’t hear back ;(
      This was 2 of my suggestions in the email to Tracy.

      –With over 2.5 million subscribers, have you considered creating a dating website for us chumps? It seems like we’d know each others pain…..just like you and hubby’s get together over same issues. And I know I’d join! I think that could be a great way to meet others that have the same qualities, virtues, etc, as all of us chumps do.
      –What about in person group meetings based on your guide, and knowledge/experience hosted in various cities. Group leaders come learn from you, create a workbook, and we could form groups based on this. That would be great as well.

      YES YES!! I’d do any of the ways too including city to city!

    • Kim and all, yes, the idea of a “Chumpalooza” has been raised. It would have to be some time next year. I’m about to sign a book deal, (waiting to actually sign it before I make a general announcement), and with that comes marketing. Publishers don’t do a lot of book tours any more, HOWEVER, at the prelaunch of the book, if you guys can drum up enough interest and put your requests in to the marketing folks, they may go for it. This is all uncharted territory for me.

      I have until September to write the new book and pen 40 new (unpublished on this blog) cartoons. So, guys, my plate is FULL. Some very kind chumps, like Tempest and Eddie and Rebecca and others, have offered to spearhead a larger meet-up. Which would be awesome. Just let me finish the new book!

      I so appreciate your kind words and the support. Not trying to blow you off!

      (But no on the dating site. Some other entrepreneur needs to do that. I just think abusers would be drawn to a bunch of pre-selected chumps.)

      • CL……fair and true point made to the ‘no’ to a dating site……..Chumpy me sure didn’t think of that! Shoulda! But didn’t…….

      • Yeah, and we all know that, as chumps, we are not all that attractive etc. So, no dating, as we would, probably, gross ourselves out looking at each other.

        • Excuse me??? Arnold I don’t know you and I’m positive that you’re not atrocious looking yourself but, I can tell you first hand I’m pretty hot. 😉 I personally never felt better looking than I did the moment I laid eyes on my husbands affair partner. don’t want to sound like sour grapes here folks but , she was truly ugly !

          • Same here Arnold. Back when I felt compelled to meet this Dream Girl’ the loser wrote poems to (he left them in the garbage with her phone number) I showed up where they originally met while he was with me ( place was his idea) and there was the whore sitting next to him at the bar. She was SO ugly l laughed uncontrollably. She screamed like the crack whore from hell. It wasn’t a pretty sight. She was willing to give him a Bj in her car. She thought it was just a one time thing but his addiction made him go back again and again. I am attractive for my age but I am also intelligent and classy. Cheaters and ow/om are not attractive, they are disordered inside and out. He used to say I looked like Jacqueline smith. He is now with a Peckenese ninja turtle. No shit

            • I just recently got a good look at the OW on facebook. She is a homely woman. I am not saying it to be mean, she really is. The kind of bone structure makeup can’t compensate for.

              It is narcissistic of me, but I felt so relieved. If I had known that was what she looked like, I never would have felt so insecure and jealous.

              My ex had been my live in boyfriend for five years. We broke up when I found he had cheated. He did not peruse me after that, which I found insulting, but I later discovered he was into cocaine. He had been doing it when I was not around, and now he could do it whenever he wanted. That was when he met the OW who also does drugs.

              My ex and I reconciled about a year later, but it only lasted a year. He claimed he had given up drugs, but I think she was in the background supplying him then. Two years later we gave it another go (we work for the same company so we would bump into each other). This time he insisted on calling it “friends with benefits” even though we spent four nights a week together. It didn’t take long for me to realize she was there on the days I wasn’t.

              So anyway, all I had were voice mails and emails. I had never seen her. Her facebook pic was blurry and taken in his old apartment. It must have been a scanned photo. Well just after ex and I blew apart for the last time, she shows up in my facebook “people you might know” with a new, clear selfie. Very homely. I can now feel confident her appeal had to do with the drugs.

              This seems shallow of me, but when I was doing the pick me dance, I was buying every makeup product and looking at every pinterest suggestion for beauty. He wouldn’t tell me I was attractive or say “I love you” anymore, so I was sure I was sub par.

              Now I am relieved and mad that he put me through all that. Does anyone have a guess as to why they cheat down? In this case it was partially drugs, but also a way to avoid commitment. Obviously people who answer bizarre craigslist posts are not going to be very classy. Why the appeal?

              • OMG Jenn, same with me. At first I met her IN MY HOME at a company barbeque we hosted. She was in the accounting dept where he worked. Months later he blindsides me with ilybinilwy and TLS me how “I’ve let myself go “. Then months later when the truth of his affair came out and who he had been with…it gave me a relieved sense of strength. I actually laughed and filed for divorce pretty fast. He then begged and cried telling me how she didn’t mean anything etc… So sad yet so funny.

      • Aside from the many chumps that would be drawn to a seminar series, psychologists, marriage counselors, and/or other professionals who work with/treat Chumps might also attend.

  • This is hard for me to read because I spent 16 years with someone whose appetite for this type of domination increased exponentially to my willingness to participate. You could call that “consent” but it was most certainly exploitation by someone who knew that I loved him and would do whatever he asked me to do. Therapy has helped with why I was so willing to suppress my true self, but hey, I’m a chump so that’s part of my makeup and who I am, I guess.

    When you say “consensual kink,” there is a difference of opinion as to what constitutes “consent,” and a fair amount of well thought out, valid, criticism stating that the 50 Shades movie and book are about abuse, not kinky sex. In the 50 shades story, the guy stalks the woman, controls, beats, and terrorizes her, calling it submission. In my opinion and experience, there is nothing wrong with true reciprocal consent of people engaging in anything short of illegal activity (Seriously, my local newspaper just published a story about a guy arrested for fucking a dog. Would anyone say that’s okay because “hey, whatever floats your boat?” Of course not. It’s abuse).

    The abuse and exploitation part has to do with psychological and emotional manipulation. When someone periodically bursts into narcissistic rages, you are walking on eggshells all the time and so there is fear that you must indulge them or they’ll get mad again. There is also the sick bond that develops that you start to think that this is “affection” you are getting from this person. This certainly happened to me. When he wasn’t mad, it felt good, and when he then wanted to do this stuff, it felt like intimacy except for the part where my heart and soul and preferences weren’t even taken into consideration. That’s on me. And I’m working on it.

    Only after he left did I start reading about dom/sub sexual relationships and I see that when both parties are truly willing, there are safe words, etc. and the sub is nurtured and cared for afterwards, that this is NOT what he was doing to me. Later, upon my telling him I felt abused by this type of sex, he said “well, you went along with it at the time.” Taken to its logical extension this type of thinking is how rapists justify what they do. My Ex also had fantasies of raping and gang raping me with me play acting a young girl. I am nauseous about that now. But I also realize that over the years as he flirted with every cashier and waitress and relative of mine including my teenage neices how terribly insecure I was and surely I thought he would leave me if I didn’t give him what he wanted.

    Now, what ELSE is truly wrong with the above Craigslist ad, is that this douchebag who wrote it is a cheating liar who is also lying in the ad… I mean “Me – 5’10”, athletic, blonde hair, blue eyes, in shape, workout, D&D free, non smoker” REALLY?? Don’t they realize if anyone responds to the ad, they are gong to see his moobs and belly and who he really is?

    Chumpified, I hope you are as far away from this dude as you can get. I know I’m relieved to be NC with my Ex for a year plus now. I was tested for STDs and okay too. Whew! because god only knows who or what my Ex was fucking besides me.

    • Muse, don’t forget that women, from a young age, are conditioned to think that they should do whatever a man wants them to do and that men are ruled by their dicks and their sex drives. You know, you better do what they want so that they don’t go find it somewhere else. Ha! Whatever a man wants..well women should be on board with it. If you don’t like it, you are the one with the problem and the reason for all his unhappiness.

      • Yes, S.C, that was definitely a factor as well. One of the ironies for me, is the presumption implied by some people that “he must have had his reasons” for cheating, implying that he wasn’t getting any sex in our relationship, that it was quite the opposite. But he’s a bottomless pit and it’s not about sex anyway, it’s about power and control.

        • TheMuse, I am so sorry for what you have been through. My (soon to be ex) husband never even gave me a clue he was into this S&m stuff. I litterally had no idea. What a shock. Sending you hugs.

          • Muse, I am sorry he put you through that. What a bully. I totally get that when you are in a down position, you feel like you must give in. Then your brain tricks you into thinking you like it just so you can cope with the trama.

            My first ex bullied me into writing off $4,000 of unpaid child support so he could get married and buy a new house without that on his credit. That is being raped up the asshole. I got even several years later when I filed for back child support. He had been shorting me $175 a month for many years. It added up. I went to court for the back pay and won $17,000. Without a lawyer because I couldn’t afford one. He hired a lawyer and made a fool out of himself in front of the judge. He did because he thought he could bully me into backing down. They are just bullies!!! Call the bluff.

          • Muse-I am so sorry that you had to endure that unspeakable horror. Big hugs.
            When I was younger I was with someone for a short time who was like your ex. He only liked to do things sexually that hurt me & the one time I let him restrain me, he used fire to burn me. Luckily, where he burned me didn’t scar & I left him. I had told him he needed serious professional help & when he went for counseling it came out later that he was raped by a man when he was younger. I guess anyone else who had crossed his path after that suffered his torture revenge fantasies. Ugh.

            These people are out there in masses pretending to be regular, normal people.
            So, I narrowly escaped that jerk and ended up with another 50 shades of f’up loser.

            I firmly believe the fix your picker statement CL makes and trust your gut from here on out.

        • Muse, you are so right about it having to do with “power and control.” I also struggle with the implication that when a man cheats, it must mean he wasn’t getting sex at home. I wish I knew those were the rules! I might have avoided HPV and a cervical biopsy.

        • Jen. I so feel for you. I just went for second test for HIV. First was negative thankfully. Ex went for testing four weeks after he left and the insurance record came to my house. When I called him he laughed. There is no limit on their cruelty and indifference toward their families. Wising you the best

      • Some of the reasons for heavy female social conditioning are better than others.

        Some, however, enhance positively reinforced cycles of mutual abuse and exploitation.

        <<>>
        “Women want men who have no emotional needs? I guess I had better pretend that I’m a need-meeting emotional appliance.”
        <<>>
        “Women will always try to get inside your head, read into things, etc.”

        It’s a shame.

        • Hey Chumplady, how about putting Anonymous Coward’s reply through the UBT? Someone should let us know wtf he’s talking about and let us know the better reasons for the heavy social conditioning of females.
          Really, help us out here.

        • “Women want men who have no emotional needs”. = Women want men who are grown ups. They don’t expect women to mommy them and they don’t need to call maintenance if the problem is the pilot light is out.

          “Women will always try to get into your head, read things” = Women can sense when you are lying, especially if you are a man-child. They will back your computer, phone, and just not comply with ignoring your obvious bullshit. How dare we, call you out on lying? I stood up for myself, I’m such a bitch.

      • Supreme. let also not forget that men are conditioned from an early age to tolerate abuse from women and to act a white knight saviors etc who are disposable. And, after a certain age, women have much higher sex drives and capacity for sex than men, and some are thus ruled by their loins, as well.

        • Arnold, yes there are men that are victims of abuse from women. However, in the majority of abuse cases, it is women who are abused by men.

            • Arnold I do not doubt you were the victim of a Malificent. They do exist. I am just reacting to the universal bullshit that women are evil, and therefore men are justified doing what they want on the down low. The boys club, that involves covering for your friend, hiring prostitutes, and just generally not respecting your partner as an actual person.

              My ex had a best friend/roommate. We came home from work early one night to discover him letting a very classy Asian prostitute into the apartment. My ex was not surprised, he knew these things occurred. I was surprised as the roomate has a girlfriend who stayed there a few nights a week. She is going through chemotherapy right now.

              The next day I had to listen to a drunk apology involving many things I couldn’t even make out. He talked about Mary Magdilin (as roomate and I are both Catholic) and going to confession. But I never heard a regret to his girlfriend, just “but if you tell Angela, I will have to kill you.”

              So from what I gather, these men back each other up. Sort of like we chumps do on this blog, and unfortunately most of us are women. Sorry Arnold, we are not talking about you when we man bash. I have a son, I certainly don’t put all men in the same basket.

              I never told Angela. As it goes, the roomate claims all sex stopped after her diagnosis. He implied he did not want to leave her with the sin of sex out of wedlock, should she die, but it may also have something to do with the type of cancer. I opted to stay out of it, and I don’t regret that. If she does pass, I don’t want to be the one who wrecked her relationship. God knows she is enough pain. I have morals, but I’m not a torturer.

    • CL, I just love it when the UBT notes poor prose. I laughed so hard at “Did you just chop up a Harlequin romance, shake it up in a jar, and jumble random sentences together?”

      TheMuse, you make good points. I’m sorry you had to go through all that. It is hard when you’re so afraid of being abandoned that you’ll go along with things you don’t like. I didn’t have the types of experiences you did, but I’m familiar with giving in to what he wanted even though I wasn’t comfortable with it. All I know is whatever I did it seemed like it was never enough, so after awhile I just stopped trying to please him.

      • Yes..me too. I was just done. Whatever was chosen on the sexual buffet table was never enough. Looking back, I realize XH was constantly trying to make me into one of his Porn Stars. In the end he became CREEPY…when Discovery fell out on the floor, I didn’t give him 5 minutes. I said GET OUT, went immediate NC, and the divorce was final 6 months later.

        • Me too blown away. I always felt used. He wanted a body I didn’t have, lips I didn’t have. And an ability to “orgasm” 6 or 7 times. I know right? I had to fake it or else he would not stop. I would wake up and he was on me. He used to use what I called the creeping hand. He would think I was asleep and I would hear his hand slowly sliding under the sheets. I would sleep on my stomach and cover my breasts to keep him from touching me..it was creepy. At the end, when I found tons of porn again, one movie he had downloaded was “Sleeping Beauty. It’s a film about a young teen girl who allows herself to be drugged so older men can look at her and touch her but nothing else. Totally creepy. How I know what this film was about is because I asked a psychologist trained in sex addiction if he knew about this movie. He said yes, that it was popular with sex offenders. And that I needed to get the hell away from the man I was married to. And I am. It’s taking forever it seems, but when I finally filed for divorce, he showed me who he really is. He broke in, assaulted me,took my phone and I had to run out of my home to the neighbors to call 911. Of course he went to jail.

          Muse, that broke my heart to hear what he put you through. That you are still standing and pushing ahead is an inspiration to us all. Hugs. xo

          • Irish, thank you. Yours sounds like a similar sicko. I never actually found my Ex’s porn because all his computers (5 of them) were all super password protected and locked down though I was told later that many of the scenes he induced me to act out were from porn movies. I wouldn’t know, I never watched a porn movie.

            • Muse, my EX blamed my SON for the porn. How low can these creeps go? That was when he was only 11 years old. He finally admitted to accessing these sites. Fast forward to June and he was looking at child porn. He said it was an accident and wanted to know how to remove the warning on the screen stating he had to pay money to have it removed. He actually said this in front of my son who is now an adult. When I later discussed this with him in private he blamed it on me because he stated he had to masturbate daily to porn. He added with a smile that he no longer needed porn since he found a whore to screw. He is so repulsive. Still in the stage of defending this fucktard I told my therapist and he said that more than likely he was accessing child porn. While gaining evidence helped me throw him out, the pain of knowing I lived with this creep is sickening. To think I tolerated this man for my entire life makes me sick. If you look in internet options you can see what they access with the time and date. That is how I knew it wasn’t my son because he was in school when EX accessed the sites.

          • OMG, Irish–that whole scenario is haunting–creepy hands and all. It is amazing how long these guys can maintain an air of normalcy before we suspect anything.

            And “Sleeping Beauty”–after I threw out my cheater, 13-year-old daughter & I accessed Netflix to pick a film on a Saturday night and saw that now-X (as of yesterday!!) had viewed “Sleeping Beauty.” Daughter was shocked and appalled (esp. since she already thought dear-old-dad was a pedophile for sleeping with a 24-year old at age 56). Needless to say, she is still NC with him.

            • Congratulations Tempest! So glad you are done with that cheating piece of shit. Good for your daughter! Smart girl! My 11 yo daughter is nc with my stbx.

              Of course mfpos had NO IDEA how that movie got downloaded onto his work tablet. I had no idea what that movie was, but I was doing recon on his work tablet and, and behold this gem popped up.. sounded weird so that is why I asked Dr Minwalla about it. It should not have surprised me because his favorite porn was young teen girls. He told me that movie is well known in sex offender circles. Just think of that. Sex offenders trading tips on the best perverted stuff. My God. What a twisted world we live in.
              I cannot tell you the horrible fear I have for my three young daughters. Two still have limited visitation with mfpos. I hate that he has access to them, but they want to see him. They are not teens yet, so I have to stay vigilant. And give them the tools to protect themselves if he tries anything. My horror comes from wondering what is going on in his sick head. It really makes me crazy.

              • I hope I’m done with him–X signed off on Sole Custody for me, including ability to move anywhere geographically. The Judge CHANGED THAT, so that I’m supposed to stay in contiguous counties. It’s probably not an issue, but that the Judge would do that unilaterally, “for the good of the child” (right–the one who doesn’t have contact with perv dad) put me into such an emotional tailspin yesterday.

                I immediately thought of your case–if you were able to get your SA to sign off on Sole custody & move anywhere geographically, then a judge unilaterally altered that, he would be putting you & your kids at serious risk.

                I’m so mad at the judge that I may write him a letter. My X has already agreed that he won’t fight me if I do need to move just in case my job is in jeopardy (I’m on 1-year contracts because I gave up tenure for cheater-face to get a much more prestigious job). Thus, I don’t want to waste the $2000 getting a new Decree approved with the original language, since it’s not likely to be needed. But it would have made me feel better to keep what had been agreed upon.

              • Yucky thing for a judge to do. I hope your daughter is a judge one day. She sounds smarter than that meddler.

          • Muse and all of us… They broke our hearts. I so remember and will never forget last summer driving home from my son’s and I was crawling on the bottom of the earth. I wanted to drive into anything to end my pain….though I didn’t want to hurt anyone else. I was SO BROKEN…actually still am. I am patiently waiting for Tuesday…

          • And lips…this pitiful XH NEVER EVER gave me a compliment, NAYDA, ZERO, NOTHING… never noticed ANYTHING about me, but he squaked about me needing LIPS… ie: lipstick…WTF was that about…porn maybe? Jump on CN … Help me…

            • A number of my law school classmates are now judges. A lot of these folks were very average, at best, in terms of intellectual candlepower. Most of the judge here are appointed for their political connections, their ethnicity or gender, etc. But, clearly they are not the brightest bulbs.
              Some just have good hair and look stern and wise. I smoked a lot of dope with some of them when we were in school.
              The public seems to have no idea just how dumb some of these judges are. I think it comforts the public to view them as wise and just etc. Some are raving lunatics who cheat on their spouses all the time.
              I know of three women judges who are/were banging deputies.
              The men seem just as bad, almost.

            • BlownAway – my opinion is your sick X thought of you only as a porn object. I’m sorry. He obviously never saw any of your good qualities. The things that make you lovable. Not some blow-up doll with heavy lipstick on. What a creep.

    • Muse – your story is heartbreaking, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. The way you explain how narcs work, even without the sexual kink aspect, really hits home. “When he wasn’t mad, it felt good” is exactly how I have felt most of the time for years – maybe decades. I almost completely lost myself and my sense of right and wrong to make him happy. In retrospect, I feel like he did things just to see if I would go along with them – for the sake of manipulating me and no other reason. When he discovered something I didn’t like, he would do it over and over again and find a reason to be mad at me for being hurt of offended. OMG these people are disgusting pieces of crap! Thank you again CL, Muse, and everyone here for helping me untangle this stuff!

      • Thank you Lizzy. I actually wrote to Chump Lady just over a year ago when I was in the initial trauma throes of D-Day and I’m embarrassed by how obsessed I was with the thought that I was being replaced as his Submissive. When I challenged him on this, he said his whole sexuality had changed and that was mind-boggling to me as this was the only type of sex he ever had with me for 16 years.

        My post is here at
        http://www.chumplady.com/2014/01/dear-chump-lady-is-the-ow-a-dominatrix/

        I have come a long way since that day. I no longer care what he is doing or who is doing it with. I mainly just wish I had never met this subhuman, and never thought so little of my own worth that I thought this was “love.”

        • Muse,
          I want to send you the biggest virtual hug ever. Reading your post from last year, parallel to the time I was going through my hardest phase post DDay, gave me a sinking feeling in my stomach.

          My heart aches for all you were put through. I am so so sorry.

          My STBX only got strange in the bedroom with me towards the end (I don’t mean kinky stuff, I mean dehumanizing) and I completely understand the low mental place you were in when you found yourself having this as the main it only source of intimacy in your marriage. I’ve been there. My STBX wouldn’t so much as sit on the couch next to me and once when I asked if we could cuddle (I cringe imagining sharing that physical with him now) he literally said to me “I’m not comfortable with that. We can touch feet.” WTF???!!! So he put his sock covered foot against mine and held it there. How. Fucking. Humiliating. That’s the extent of affection I was getting for quite awhile.

          I was basically invisible until my STBX was hammered, on a rare “high” in his mood swings and felt like being a pervert. There was no love in that sex…just power.

          I’m so glad you’ve moved on past this sad time in your life. The woman who sent that letter to CL is NOT who I read solid advice and receive heartfelt insight from today. You are a survivor and a beautiful person.

          • Thank you the Better Jamie. I appreciate your kind thoughts. And yes, I have come a long way from that desperate abuse victim. I like your posts too. I perceive you are much younger than me (I’m almost 60) and I love reading about your strength, wish I’d had more when I was in my 30s and 40s. Hugs back

            • Thank you, Muse. I’ve been told since I was a child that I have an old soul, I think I agree. I am 31 but I think childhood experiences & this divorce in particular have pushed me along the emotional & spiritual maturity path a little sooner than your average American. This infidelity garbage in particular kept a lot of my positivity at bay for awhile but with all the insight and support on this site it’s coming back to the forefront. I can’t even put into words how much growing I’ve done since DDay. I’m thankful for those tough lessons, I believe they’ve come to me early so that I will be able to help those close to me when/if they experience something similar down the road. I pray that they don’t but sadly, statistically speaking, I’m likely not going to be the only one.

        • Oh wow, Muse. WOW! This is just really starting to sink in for me (4 months from d-day) that there is no making these people happy; your post makes that crystal clear. Thank you so much for sharing your story and thanks to everyone here who shares – it is the best therapy possible!

          • Totally agree, Lizzy. I am forever grateful to Muse and many others who have shared these stories of sexual exploitation and humiliation. 18+ months and counting from D-day, and almost a year of NC, I find it incredible to look back at what he put me through. What I allowed myself to be put through. And, I’ve felt such sickening shame over it. How does a smart, strong, feminist warrior woman get to that point in a relationship? How do you let someone else’s sexual current pull you so far off your own course? It’s only been here on this blog that I’ve found any real peace over it because other people are brave enough to tell the truth about what happened to them. Slowly I’m learning to forgive myself, and a big part of that is because I see my experience mirrored in what I read here. It is a very profound gift, and the mainstay of my healing. That’s the straight dope.

      • Yes, I can totally relate to “when he wasn’t mad it was good”. My husband treated me with disdain for so long. It was such a gradual thing, I never realized it. But I lived for those times when he didn’t seem mad at me and at those times our relationship felt good. Gawd. What a mess.

        • It’s cheaters’ preferred slot-machine-reinforcement + devaluation: reel you in with their charming, fun behavior, then slap you down/give you the cold shoulder/criticize, etc.

          Same old, same old.

          • I can also relate to this hot and cold garbage. You kind of get immune to the bad treatment after awhile or get used to it by stuffing your own feelings about it….then, when they have a good day when they aren’t critical and moody, maybe they are even nice, it sucks you right in. I have journaled about some of this stuff. for example, before I was really aware of a lot of the ill treatment, I would ask myself why I felt so bad after interacting with him and I would tell myself I was being unreasonable and apply a little more sparkle. Then, one day I just let myself feel my feelings about how he acts toward me and I wrote it down and lo and behold, there it was in black and white: 10 instances of criticizing and belittling (very subtle I might add) shouting at the kids and the dog, followed by just falling asleep on the couch for hours, leaving me to tend to everything in the evening by myself….that was an eye opener and a fairly regular occurrence. Journaling really helps combat the crazy making

            • Yes, Sounreal!! I did the same thing at the beginning of last summer to determine if my ever-increasing depression was really due to his sporadic emotional abuse. It was–episode after episode of belittling and the cold shoulder

              • I think it can really try your sanity; trying to go through this ringer. When you are used to the bad as the norm, and they throw you a few crumbs in the form of good behavior, it seems like everything is wonderful but if you step back and see their good treatment really is crumbs compared to how people ought to consistently treat each other in a basic respectful relationship. I still catch myself slipping into the paralysis of being placated by crumbs and have to keep forcing myself to step back and look at the big picture…”wow, he didn’t shout at us today” should be “he didn’t shout at us and it is just normal not to be shouted at…it’s nothing special”

    • Hi theMuse – I agree. I find this split between sex and love problematic. I think I did when young enough to bend into shapes I certainly can’t now. I’m not necessarily anti libertarian but the commodification of sex combined with the YOLO mentality (you only live once) creates a perfect storm for narcissistic(and often misogynistic) relationships- not just cheating.

      Also the Craigslist shenanigans do nothing for me. I was a sexual naïf until XH unintentionally introduced me to the dark world of internet porn. I didn’t think ‘oh how sexually sophisticated’, I just thought yuck. Just as I did when I found squeezed up lubricant tubes by XH’s computer post D-day.
      I think the 50 shades effect will be ‘swinging’ (pun intended) by Chump Nation pretty soon. All those boring spouses not meeting their partner’s needs. Just another excuse for cheating to be added to the list.

      • “I’m not necessarily anti libertarian but the commodification of sex combined with the YOLO mentality (you only live once) creates a perfect storm for narcissistic(and often misogynistic) relationships- not just cheating.”

        Brilliant post, Mikky. Thanks for this.

    • Oh, Muse–the slippery slope of abuse that these MFers expose us to is haunting. It takes months after they’ve left to fully see the damage, and the subtle manipulation that allowed us to give up ourselves and our dignity little by little.

      • As Lizzy said above, ” I almost completely lost myself and my sense of right and wrong to make him happy.” It is indeed a slippery slope. My therapist said, “you entered into his reality, and the pain you are feeling now is the pain of coming back into your own reality.” That helps a lot. He also said, “you always had all the power in the relationship but you gave him your power so he woudn’t feel ba about himself.” That one hit home, and is the same thing Lizzy just said. Sucked into the Narc Vortex. It is jarring coming out into the real world again, but ultimately so healing and good.

          • “You gave him your power so he wouldn’t feel bad about himself” says it all. It also explains why they treat us so badly. We are lowering ourselves in an attempt to connect. It’s both submissive and belittling. I think they are aware of the level they are on and we can’t lift them up.

            • Another insight of my therapist when I lamented, “Why didn’t he respect me? I respected HIM!” my therapist said, well here you have someone who knows they are exploiting you and manipulating you, and that you trust them and believe them. They know they are lying to you and cheating on you — they know they are the lowest form of humanity, a “bad person” — that fact that you look up to them means you are a fool. Ergo, they do not respect you.

              • That hits a nerve–mine is always at his most human after I have told him what an appalling human being he is. (Since I’m not looking up to him at such moments, then I’m worthy of respect?)

                On Tuesday, I found out he had his grad-whore in Mexico with him AND in the same room when he called to ask me for a divorce 8 years ago. What kind of woman would invade a couple’s private divorce-moment? And what kind of man would do that to the mother of his two children after a 16 year relationship? I can’t wrap my head around the cruelty of that. It finally prompted me to go off my rocker and tell him I wished he was dead. What’s sad is that I don’t regret saying that (though I would never say that to another human being, well, okay Mugabe and a few other dictators). Does anyone have an explanation aside from typical narcissist selfishness? The only good thing to come out of my hysterical rant at him was that he did give me an apology.

              • P.S. He dumped grad-whore a week later to return to me (since I didn’t know he had been having an affair). So the Karma Bus hit her. Too bad, so sad.

          • Oh Muse…I so identify with what you have been through and your journey back. YES….THE SLIPPERY SLOPE. Your posting here and your story I just know will help others! It sounds like you have the best in therapists!! I so am sorry you went to that very dark place in the name of “his happiness.” May your soul find healing and joy. Tracy…you, your blog and this place is is blessing to all us!

            • Thank you Blown Away… CL and CN are my daily balm, like so many others. I have also found journaling helpful because I can say anything I want, using any kind of language! I’ve written 500 pages so far, single spaced. I couldn’t afford to continue therapy after 7 months bec my ins doesn’t cover it but that did help me immensely and kept a lot of notes then that I go back to frequently and things my therapist said back then make even more sense to me now. Journal writing also helped me truly go NC back when I was still in danger of trying to stay connected to him. Also the book Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft and several others recommended by CL.

        • Wow….all of ^^THIS^^ Losing ourselves and giving up our power. I was a strong and self-sufficient single Mom when I met him, I’ve been trying to figure out WHY and HOW I gave up all of my power to him.

          Mine hid everything… i had no idea that he even liked porn until I found some DVD’s hidden in an old coat pocket in his closet. It was the “hiding” them that bothered me most, they were just average porn…nothing illegal or too far out. I’m not a prude either so it just never made sense to me that a grown man would hide this, not ever even breach the subject with me. Found those around the 2-3 year mark. Then about a year or more ago I found the link in his history to a hidden porn forum on Craigslist.

          They are so inherently broken. Not. Redeemable.

          • I didn’t know about the porn ( I had suspected it for awhile) until he accidentally left it out right where our 3 year old could have seen it…I sure wouldn’t want to have to explain that one. He is definitely not the squeaky clean moral person he ” advertised” himself to be when we were dating.

            • This^^^^^ :’-( I, also was a strong single mom with a great job, a great kid…. I thought I got a squeaky clean, religious, financially sound man too. Wrong. What I got was a perverted monster who sold me a lie. I’ll never forgive myself for that. For allowing myself to think I really could have my dream. I gave it all up for him. I had a great job, new truck, new house that I had bought all on my own. I rocked!!! We dated for 3 years because I wanted to be sure. WTF happened?? 6 months into our marriage he lost his job. I had already quit mine to stay home. I’m so ashamed to find myself so down at 54. My health is not what it was, I have 4 young children to provide for, which also keeps me attached to this horror of a human being. I want to move away after the divorce is final, but I’m worried the court won’t let me. That means I’m FUCKING STUCK. At least till my 7 year old is at least 14. I have to get my credentials back, which requires studying and taking my certification exam. I have problems with my neck. Getting an MRI to see if it is cervical stenosis. Which may impact my ability to do the job I am trained for.

              How does this happen?? What happened to ME? I only see a long, long tunnel with no light at the end. This huge mistake I’ve made may be all that’s left of my life. I may be stuck right here.. I am so afraid for my future. I sometimes can’t see beyond my house that needs cleaning, schoolwork that needs grading, meals that need cooking. The only good thing is my kids. They are the reason I get up every day.

              I can’t even pay my attorney very much and I’m sure that doesn’t make her work very hard for my case. What happened to that self assured person that I was? Gone gone gone. I feel like a shell of who I was. Or maybe that’s just who I thought I was. Because the girl I was wouldn’t have let herself be used and lied to like this. The old me had a bumper sticker on my new truck that said “I wasn’t born a bitch, men like you made me this way” (no offense Arnold, not all men )

              Now I stand in the ashes of my life and feel hopeless. I’ll never get away. Never. So sad and afraid.

              Shit

              • Shit is right, me too! Made me tear up Irish, for you and myself. I’m 51, no job so no credit so no independence, how could I leave? Where would I go? … I was SO scared at first too…then the breast cancer diagnosis and he left…I survived both and somehow you will too, you are still mighty you just get through one day at a time.

                Sometimes we have to look past our own struggles at what other people are going through…there are plenty of other shoes I’d prefer my own to. It helps me keep perspective, I get low just not too low.

                Be FIERCE again, your cajones are still there…just hiding.

              • Oh, Irish. Hang in there. It takes a long time to recover from trauma and abuse, but you are working at it a day at a time. This time, when you get your life where you want it to be, you will have better tools. Sometimes, I think the the nature of the “dream” is what makes us vulnerable to predators. If I had a wish for people getting into relationships, it would be: make sure every step of the way that you are protecting yourself as you commit to a partner. So if your partner wants you to give up your job, how are you protecting yourself if you are left alone (which can happen through death or alcohol abuse as well as betrayal)? If you are the one whose dream is to be a SAHP, how are you protecting your ability to get back into the job market? If you spend YOUR inheritance on remodeling your fixer-upper, what happens if your spouse leaves? When I separated from my husband (not the cheater), his alcohol abused brain had the notion that while he put the down payment on the house, I had contributed nothing, although I put my inheritance into a new roof, electrical, kitchen reno, etc., and paid every mortgage payment and all the taxes. While I get the “urge to merge” and become one with the beloved, I wish people would look hard at the business side of marriage at every point they make a big decision that could leave them in a big mess if the spouse cheats.

        • Muse, I now realize why my therapist told me I HAD to file for a divorce three months after I threw him out of the house. It was always about power and control. Whenever he was ‘dating’ he would stay to see if it worked out and continue paying our bills. When I finally filed he was enraged! He did have a lawyer at the time but it threw him into such a fit of anger that I had my own lawyer. He moved right in with his OW after knowing her for a short time. Over the past year he was so creepy I rarely had sex with him because there was no intimacy. His lawyer withdrew (surprise, surprise) because of his anger issues and unethical demands. Thankfully, I am waiting for the final order for my divorce to become official. Reading about your experience has helped me understand the ‘pain’ and ‘power and control’. Thank you!

          • Thank You NCStevie, sounds like we both got shit sandwiches.. we will overcome. So sorry you had to deal with cancer and an asshole at the same time. Hugs to you,you are MIGHTY too! 🙂

            LAJ, as always such a helpful post. We all need to protect ourselves. Not very romantic, but reality. As they say love is blind. I have none of my inheritance left, he used it up. I used my IRAs up to help support us. I felt like I should not “save” the money, but should use it to keep us afloat because X couldn’t seem to keep a job. *sigh* I am making sure my daughter’s know not to give all their power and independence to any person. Keep yourself employed, even if it’s minimal. Or learn a craft so you are not at the mercy of someone else’s bad choices. Love with all your heart, but keep who you ARE. Don’t give that away. I am struggling so much right now,because I am stuck. It has sapped my strength. But, I know I will get through this. Thanks again for the support and great insight. I would go completely batshit crazy without you all. 🙂

  • These subhumans are so deluded.

    My very contrite unicorn-promising husband on the other coast mentioned that he had been looking for a rental to live in since he has been told he could not come home. When he said he had been looking at ads in the local papers and on Craigslist, I knew.

    It didn’t take long to find his sex ad, in all of its grammar-deficient glory:

    “looking forn a good time – m4w – 50 (Medford area)

    My name is don. Im a single 50 yr old male looking for female 25 or older who likes the out doors and would be interested in haveing a good time anything goes.No ties or head games please.”

    His name isn’t don. He’s 53. And it’s been so long since I’ve seen his dick that I couldn’t be absolutely sure that the picture of the severely manscaped, er, scalped, groin and the semi-erect penis (with a strange object that may have been a gym sock or saran wrap wrapped around the base of said manliness) was his.

    But we chumps have learned to look beyond the obvious. We look beyond the obvious. And we can damned sure remember the very unique, hand-sewn piecework quilt, lovingly made by his grandmother and given to him, slept under for the last 26 years, beneath the obvious.

  • “Because I’m that delusional. And that cheap.”
    I just did a spit take of morning coffee on that one – best line of the day!

    All I can say to Chumpified is that THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!!! GET OUT OF THERE! Or – better yet -wait until your sagging, kink-cheater husband is out of the house on one of his leather (actually “pleather”) clad excursions and pack him a bag and set it on the porch. In the meantime – change the locks. You should not be risking your health or your live remaining in the same home as a cheater and a liar. The fact he’s a misogynist is just icing on the shit-cake, really.

    He’s a balding man with what is likely a smallish penis looking to feel like the “master” in his own mind. He’s not even master of basic coherent ad copy. Get out of there – what exactly are you waiting for?

  • Oh wow, this ad is intense. Lol. I got so much jumbled and confusing imagery. Yikes.

    Now, I’m no prude, quite the opposite. I’m in favor of consenting adults acting out whatever they please in their sexual lives but like CL said, I’m NOT so much in favor of infidelity. If he’s into this stuff and wants multiple partners, why get married? Seems like a real buzzkill to the whole promiscuity thing.

    Chumpified,
    I hope you are healthy, happy and cheater free on this day. If not all those now, hopefully soon. Sorry you had to find all these strange shit floating out there on the internet, what a disgusted feeling you must’ve had.

  • OMG. Had to put the coffee mug down at “I want to choke you, but you can trust me.” This made my whole weekend and will get forwarded to every single person I know. And maybe some I don’t!

    • Chumpified–please tell us that you’re on your way out the door from this guy. Please. It makes me ill to think that he’s around you (or your kids?) with this type of delusional behavior. This person does not deal in reality, not whatsoever. Like CL said….kink is one thing, between consensual adults that are FREE to engage in this behavior—he’s “attached” (whatever that means).

      • LOL CL. And yes, I am trying to make my escape as quickly as possible. I was a stay at home mom all of these years so I have to start back at the bottom of the career food chain, which sucks, but I gotta do it. I start my new job Monday.

        • Congrats on the new job Chumpified! This job is the stepping stone to your new cheater-free life. I was unemployed when DDay hit & it took me almost a year to find a new one-I recently passed my 90 day probation. I have been putting money aside for my escape/divorce and I am almost there.

          The surprising thing about going back to work for me is that it has done wonders for emotionally. Of course at home, stbx criticizes me for everything and nothing is ever good enough……But at work, I am appreciated for my knowledge, skills, and performance. My co-workers like me & I have made new friends, including some single moms. Their stories are inspiring & give me hope (just like CL and CN) I feel like I am returning to the strong woman I was before stbx entered the picture. I hope your new job brings you the same positive experience mine has.

          Godspeed in getting away from 50 shades of freaky. Please be careful and protect yourself.
          AND most importanly-keep with CL and CN for support and understanding

    • Hysterically funny, SphinxMoth, “I have to put my coffee mug down…” And CL, “nipple ring tethered to a dungeon.” Such great writing! As somebody once said sex is great when recipricosity, caring, and genuine love are valued and present. My POS ex after awhile couldn’t even do vanilla sex and have a great time, you know like normal people because he was too into the visual that porn provides. Sex should never be a lesson in Twenty different positions, heck no wonder I felt used. I think it makes a difference when a couple can talk about sex too (my ex always got defensive). I too am open to consensual respectful kink, but of course Cheaters have another agenda entirely. Sex, when married, apparently *sarcasm font* is not done to be mutually satisfying.

  • Honestly, this sickens me. This guy is such a lowlife. His “fantasy” just shows what he thinks of women. Men like this hate women. It’s scary to think this is what seems to be out there. Craigslist is full of this shit. What the fuck is wrong with so many people out there?

  • another closet dog fucker….. It will be interesting in another 1000 years when they dig up are asses …. see what the display looks like at that museum. Somedays I am embarassed to be apart of this species.

  • There are no words, truly.

    Thank god for the UBT to take some of the horror out of that narrative.

    Like Char said Chumpified-The CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE! “GET OUT” <——In quotes because it is said in the demonic voice that tells that family to get out of their Amityville Horror house…same voice-same message-same horror!

      • The Amityville Horror quote was “GET OUT!” said to a priest that was blessing the house and in a demonic voice. Freaked me right out the first time I saw it! The other quote “The call is coming from inside the house” is when a stranger calls.

        I just combined the two horror movies because clearly Chumpified is in the middle of her own horror movie that she definitely needs to Get out of because her psycho is making the call from inside the house.

        • and a perfectly combined set of quotes! (I just didn’t see Amityville Horror because, being raised in a devout Catholic home, devil movies caused nightmares for a month! So I was curious.)

          • I endured 12 years of Catholic school torture. My parents were definitely not devout though. Word of advice, stay away from The Exorcist. My sister and I watched that on HBO while our parents were packing for a vacation. I was only 13 at the time. Bad idea. We were forbidden from watching so naturally that made us more curious.

            My parents didn’t forbid it because of the devil but they thought the subject matter was too adult and far too scary. Our dad caught us when we screamed at the sight of Linda Blair in all her demonically possessed glory. He let us finish watching and told us our punishment was that we had to sleep with the lights out in our own rooms.

            To this day, I can’t even know that movie is on another channel. I stay away at all costs! Scariest movie I’ve ever seen, hands down. Being Catholic just made the whole experience worse!

  • You know, upon further reflection–I recall confronting X with a few of the dick pics that he sent to OW–you know, ones stupidly with actual identifiers—legs up, shoes on, propped up on our file cabinet with my daughters’ ARTWORK tacked to it—and him saying, “That’s not me.”

    I know it’s not the same as “anonymous” Craigslist ads, but this is how delusional they are—they’ll deny and deny and deny, even in the face of irrefutable proof.

    First he denies it’s even him. Corner him on that. Okay, that is clearly you, in the office, with THESE SHOES (displaying said evidence) on and HERE is the artwork in said photo. “Someone must have hacked my phone and laptop.” Okaaaaaay. And happened to have sent this dick pic to a number that appears repeatedly on your phone–for a year–and is saved under a MAN’S NAME. Are you now telling me that you are a closet gay or bisexual? NO!!!!! (red faced and angry now).

    It went on and on. Point is—when you have to argue THIS HARD and become Perry Fucking Mason to get at the truth—it’s time to roll.

    • ” Are you now telling me that you are a closet gay or bisexual?” I would give a lot to have heard that whole exchange. We can laugh about it now, but it’s maddening when they deny and deny even when there is visual proof that they are cheating jackasses.

      • OMG, LAJ. It was insane. That is all I can call it. The bob and weave, the spin, the fake…he should have played for the NFL. He knew that what I hate most is this tiresome cat and mouse game…and I would usually just give up and leave the room.

        When this happened, though, I was determined to get a straight (as I could) answer. I did okay, after so many years of arguing with him about other things. He ended up red faced angry, yet still shifting the blame onto me.

        The more “crude” I got—which is what it seems to have to come down to with these sociopaths–and the whole bisexual/gay thing came up–he got more and more flustered. I hammered away though—are you? ARE YOU? Are you screwing MEN TOO??? (hehehe) NO!!!! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT!! THAT’S DISGUSTING!

        Really? Disgusting, you say? Then clear it up for me. How is this picture attached to a man’s phone number in your phone?

        THAT is when “she’s just a friend”, “nothing happened” excuses came out. Hammered him on those. “She misunderstood my intentions”, “she’s stalking me” came out. Hammered him on those. “Okay, I kissed her, just once, on the forehead” (is that what we’re calling vaginas now?).

        You see how this goes. It wasn’t fun and it lasted for hours. But getting crude…in a classy sort of way–threatening to call the number of the “man” he sexted, hammering away at his sexuality–you’re right, in retrospect, it’s hilarious, but not at the time.

        I get tired just remembering it.

        • “‘Okay, I kissed her, just once, on the forehead’ (is that what we’re calling vaginas now?).”
          You crack me up!

    • Oh my… thank you thank you…. I thought it was just mine. I mean HOW they just deny the irrefutable truth….holy batshit crazy!!

      That’s what FINALLY drove mine out the door running to Mommy’s, I had pic after pic of their bizarre middle school grammar texts to each other and I just started reading them out loud….basically mocking him for being such a childish douche. They were so ridiculous it was seriously disturbing… these two fuckwits are in their 40’s, they were professing their UNDYING love for each other after talking and texting each other for one month.

      They are all so bizarre, there is no figuring out the skein.

  • Chumpified–I sure hope you are DONE with this creepo! OMG!! On the other hand, the UBT was so hilarious I almost spit my coffee out. FREAKIN FUNNY

  • Chumpified here. Thanks CL. You actually made me be able to sit back and laugh at what a NPD asswipe this man truly is. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, I am trying hard to gtfu of here ASAP. As is the case with most “sex addicts” mine has us in a pile of debt. I want to slap his “inner child” upside the head. I will get out, and it will be as fast as possible. In the meantime, I can get my kicks by posting his drivel here for the world to see. And yes, 31+ women answered his ads, and he kept videos and photos of all of his meetings, which are now forever burned into my mind, and several strategically placed external hard drives. Love to all of you fellow Chumps and especially you CL. xoxoxo

    • I am SO glad you’re getting out. Please deliver all the evidence to your lawyer. Debt or no debt, hock your jewelry, borrow money from family, whatever it takes — leave this asshole. Excuse me, “sex addict.”

    • “he kept videos and photos of all of his meetings”

      Ewwwwwwww. What a scary disgusting creep! It must have been a huge shock to find all of that. Please tell me you don’t have any children with this sick freak. I hope you have a plan to get out of there quickly!

  • Giggles and a belly laugh at the UBT. He isn’t the subtle type for sure. My EX posts on Craig’s list that he is a simple guy, doesn’t have money and doesn’t want someone with money. Regardless of what they write they are simply delusional and totally sick. It saddens me to think there women out there who respond to these ads. I am not sure if my EX’s whore knew he has always had a separate phone number for his hookup’s on Craig’s list. What bothers me the most is the fact that these assholes expose all their partners to STD’s. Even your pets aren’t safe! If only they could donate their brains for scientific research to be analyzed when they die. This puts a whole new spin and insight into a narc’s view of trust. They prey on the vulnerable, needy, and its always about their own selfishness.

  • Chumpified,

    Like many of us who were in long relationships with selfish people, I’d guess that one day you are in for a grand awakening at how good sex can be with a partner who is giving and enthusiastic about being WITH YOU.

    Here’s hoping it’s not long til you ditch this sadistic sh*thead’s sorry ass and reach 50 Shades of Meh.

  • I’ll spare you my long “50 shades is exactly how NOT to do BDSM” rant and simply say…

    You don’t just jump into BDSM. You need to research it, learn about it, understand it. It should only be shared between people with a superior level of communication and trust and there MUST be very strict boundaries that both people honor explicitly.

    50 shades is dangerous crap. There are emotional and physical issues that need to be understood.

    Everyone has a “thing” and if people are judged for having a kink they hide it, lie about it, etc. Repression leads to obsession.

    Which leads back, once again, to the fact that if a person is cheating on their spouse (which always involves lying and hiding and NOT communicating) they are the EXACT person you do NOT want to engage in BDSM with.

    People who cheat are not capable of having any type of healthy relationship. They are not capable of the open and honest communication necessary to play safely in a BDSM relationship. Cheater have no useful concept of boundaries. They are NOT people who will play safe.

    So, please try to understand that some of us out here have a kink or two. Most of us want to find acceptance and understanding. Shaming doesn’t help. We want what everyone else wants. We want a partner we can trust and who is capable of open and honest communication.

    So, repeating, cheaters are not good candidates for BDSM exploration for the exact same reasons they are not good relationship partners. Kinks aside it is all based on the same issues.

    • And for people who are interested there are local groups you can find and books to read to learn about things like this and how to do it safely. Don’t just jump in. DO NOT, under any circumstances, take anything in 50 shades as valid. It isn’t. It is crap. People don’t explore this stuff safely because they are often shamed for admitting they are curious.

        • Sam, I get what you mean. And thanks for that. This should turn into a slam of alternative lifestyles. It’s the cheating and dishonesty that’s problematic.

            • Okay, but there is just something about it that’s dark. I guess I’m really uncomfortable with the idea of being treated like an animal. I don’t even treat my pets like animals, they are family members.

              • My ex asked for anal. Had no problem when I turned it down. From time to time when we were about to get intimate he would position his hands like he would choke me, which I also turned down. He demonstrated a hand brush against the arm that would mean “stop.” Obviously, he had been doing this with someone else. I gently turned that down too. He never forced the issue, but it was clear he had learned some new tricks from his “friend” ( I really can’t bring myself to call her schmoopie.).

                I guess I’m not that exciting, so he had to go elsewhere. Sorry, I’m a mom, so can’t afford to die of autoerotic asphyxiation. It seems like there are a million other things you can try that don’t involve pain, degregation, or accidental death. I swear you can have a great orgasm without choking!

      • [SARCASM ALERT:]
        Gee, Sam, … and to think I was thinking of responding to Chumpified’s ex’s Craigslist ad….

        So, to make sure I understand correctly: I should NOT respond to an ad by a complete stranger who wants to handcuff me and make me crawl around, knowing nothing else about him, except that he’s cute & athletic [ok, self-described, but he would never LIE, right????]?

        Seriously, though, you’d have to be delusional to set yourself up for this kind of thing. I can barely get up the courage to even THINK about online dating and meeting a guy in a public place for a cup of coffee!!

        Jesus, I hope some woman (or better yet, some dude) shows up at Chumpified’s ex’s dungeon … with a taser.

  • I have a problem with the term “consensual”. I have never observed animal sacrifice, but I seriously doubt that the lamb or goat or whatever animal is used, gleefully and willfully jumps up on the sacrificial alter and proudly presents its throat to the minister of death. Why then would a potential partner, presumably looking for at least a “love-like” experience, think that meeting a stranger for bondage and at the very least a simulated sexual experience actually “consent” to this type of activity? Personally, I never thought having sex was that hard to figure out, or that complicated to accomplish. If you cannot get excited without “pleather” and plastic and whips and handcuffs — doesn’t that signal some type of problem? If you think you “have to do this” in order to keep this prime example of love machine — is that really consent? I have read pedophile testimony that children are sexual beings and really enjoy being with them. Are the children capable of consent? Having raised two sons, I can testify that little boys find their penis to be truly fascinating, and fun to play with, and they do so at any given opportunity, which makes changing a diaper extra challenging at times, but I would hardly call their obvious enjoyment of themselves “consensual”. More like, accidental, as in “Oh, what is this? Feels like fun. O boy! (five seconds later) “Oh, what’s this? Shiny! Looks like sparkles! Oh boy!”

    I have long wondered how social influences have so deluded us that we actually think so little of ourselves that we “submit” to things we really do not like, desire or enjoy. I have heard many of my women friends describe the overbearing behavior and the rage or at the very least the pout that follows their attempt to deny the sexual advance of their partner — to the point where they just give in and do it because they can get to sleep faster once his Royal Ass is satisfied. This is not really consensual in my book. This is emotional blackmail.

    I also have to admit that I have lost all patience with people who feel they must lie to potential partners and tell them that all their deluded fantasies sound simply wonderful, and that in fact they crave just such things, and they will be oh, so happy to provide them — for free! No strings attached. Really? Have you heard the one that starts “If it sounds too good to be true . . . ” ? Or people who meet these deluded weirdo’s who describe themselves as tall, blond, handsome and fit, but are actually short, bald, not handsome and pudgy. When you say hello, are you supposed to not seem surprised that they don’t fit their description — AT ALL? If they lie about how they look, how can you possibly expect the truth about anything else?

    Even within a relationship, I think that there are most likely things that one partner may enjoy and the other partner may despise. I do not feel the “relationship” status entitles the partner who enjoys the right to do what pleases him/her if the partner who despises says NO. Find another activity — one you can agree on. Or, dissolve the relationship if THAT ONE THING is so important. I don’t really believe it is about sex, anyway — I believe it is about power. Can I coerce you into doing something you truly despise, just to please me? Uh, let me think about this . . NO!

    We have to stand by our own boundaries and learn to say NO and mean it. It is the only thing that may turn the perverted tide of pornography, prostitution, and rape that is running over us all. If you were raised to believe that you have no right to an opinion — please get help. Codependency and enabling damage others — don’t fall for the propaganda that they show how much you “love” someone. Love yourself enough to take care of yourself, and don’t put up with perverts. When you find “proof” of this type of behavior, RUN! In all likelihood, you have just discovered the tip of the iceburg.

    • “If you cannot get excited without “pleather” and plastic and whips and handcuffs — doesn’t that signal some type of problem?”

      – for some people, yes. for many people, no. Many people have a kink or two – probably people you know and love and way more people than you think. Often people act out because they can’t accept their own kinks or are shamed about having a kink. They act out in the same way cheaters act out. See my post above. Having a kink doesn’t mean you are broken. Shaming people for having a kink doesn’t help.

      “If you think you “have to do this” in order to keep this prime example of love machine — is that really consent?”

      – no one should ever do anything they don’t want to do ever. Period. So no, if you feel coerced that is not consent. Period.

      • No judgement if two consenting adults choose to use pleather and plastic and whips and handcuffs. Clearly — this type of behavior holds no attraction for me. If you like it, and your partner likes it — who am I to judge? My question here is what constitutes “consent”. I don’t really pretend to understand how some of the kinks come into being. My friend who was a bartender for years told me that she was the “beneficiary” of all types of information that she would rather have not heard, and what she always wondered was “where were you, and what were you doing when you discovered that you really enjoyed ” ____”.

        At any rate — I have read about and attempted some very different things over the years with a consenting and curious partner — but I have always held the opinion that if I choose to try something new, and do not like it, I can always change my mind and say NO. I don’t know how one would reach the level of trust and communication you describe from answering an ad on Craig’s List. It seems to me that truly consensual behavior that you describe could only be developed over time and a prolonged experience of togetherness that has proven to be trustworthy in many other areas before you would ever “consent” to being placed in a position of such vulnerability. I freely admit that I do not EVER see myself accepting this type of position, willingly. Perhaps I am too much of a cynic? Perhaps I have trust issues? Perhaps I have never found it necessary to test my boundaries in this fashion. Again — these are all MY choices.

        I also feel that while I might enjoy a variation of the “norm” every now and then, that I am certainly capable of enjoying something less crafted and staged as a part of my everyday life. So I can enjoy without the particular “kink” — I am not committed to do that particular variation all the time. Nor do I feel “deprived” if I do not get what I may particularly like all the time. I suppose I am suspicious of the “obsessive” need, and how “consent” is reached. Nothing about the ad this chump found on Craigs List gave me any indication of trust, commitment or true consent. If prostitution is involved, the particular kink may work according to “rules” of some type, but it is done for money, not intimacy or commitment.

        My problem with 50 Shades is that impressionable young people of both sexes are being deluded into thinking the types of behavior exhibited in that series of books and the movie are acceptable. I have read critiques of it from others who say they practice the BDSM lifestyle — and they have said it misrepresents their lifestyle. I am afraid that all the hype and laughing and wink wink excitement that is going on will convince someone impressionable that it is ok to act this way — either as the sub or the dom, and they will have no idea what boundaries are, or how to be safe on any level. and someone will get hurt. Someone may die. Someone could end up in jail. Wink, wink. It is this tendency to feel “entitled” to act upon impulse without regard to consequence that I object to. It is this willingness to accept as “exciting” without regard to the risk that I object to. It is the willingness of anyone who would answer this freak’s ad — knowing that he is “attached” and they must use “discretion” that I object to. To me, this would be as crazy as the sacrificial lamb jumping willingly on the alter. They may be crazy enough to think there is a benefit — but I hardly believe that it is consent.

        • but I have always held the opinion that if I choose to try something new, and do not like it, I can always change my mind and say NO. I don’t know how one would reach the level of trust and communication you describe from answering an ad on Craig’s List. It seems to me that truly consensual behavior that you describe could only be developed over time and a prolonged experience of togetherness that has proven to be trustworthy in many other areas before you would ever “consent” to being placed in a position of such vulnerability.

          Of course if a person doesn’t want to continue or do something a second time they should not. I never said they should. In fact, I clearly stated in my first post that this is all about communication and trust and specific boundaries.

          I never said anyone could find anything close to anything “good” on Craig’s List. In fact, as I stated in my first post it requires a high level of openness, honesty, trust and communication. You can’t get that from a coffee date….lol

          Please read my first post because I feel I was very clear. There seems to be some misunderstanding happening.

          If you don’t like it or understand it, fine, but I was very clear in my first post about several issues.

          • BDSM has been around for a very long time….a very long time…lol It is not something new at all.

            As I said in my first post, 50 shades is pure, dangerous crap. It completely misrepresents, in a very dangerous way, what BDSM is all about.

            Parents need to communicate clearly and in age appropriate ways with their children about sex. I see so many parents too embarrassed to have the necessary conversations about sex to help their children make informed decisions.

            I have seen one parent handle these conversations well. She started early, didn’t freak out about any question, answered questions honestly, openly and in age appropriate ways and it was an ongoing discussion, not just one “birds and bees” overview. Her children trusted her and brought issues to her for discussion so she could guide them. It was amazing and I have never met any other parent who handled these conversations at all, let alone as well.

            • Sam is you are promoting BDSM I think there are other sites more appropriate than the “Leave a cheater gain a life?”

              • CJ, I think this is the first time I’ve disagreed with one of your posts. I don’t see Sam as “promoting” anything but simply clarifying what BDSM is and isn’t about, and encouraging parents to have an open and honest conversation so that kids don’t grow up in shame or fear regardless of their orientation or proclivities. FTR, I am not into BDSM, but I am very much into respectful dialogue, which I believe Sam contributes to and always has. And, sorry, why on earth should she or anyone else have to go somewhere else because of preferences that aren’t vanilla? If she’s been cheated on, this *is* the appropriate site, and it’s not like she’s trying to make anybody cross over to the dark side. Just my .02.

                Sam, my elder daughter came out a couple years ago, and now she’s not sure exactly what label best fits her. I told her she doesn’t need a label as long as she has a good heart and behaves with integrity. Anyway, she despises the whole 50 Shades juggernaut and has a lot to say about it from a queer/feminist perspective. You sound like someone she’d enjoy talking to. Thank you for speaking out, and I really hope you don’t disappear. We need a multiplicity of voices here, otherwise it’s just another way of being chumped. Again, my 02.

              • Thank you for FMT. I value your opinion. It’s a realm that I have not entered and have seen from afar. I felt the thread was going sideways, but as you pointed out, it opens discussion on a rarely discussed topic.

                Shame serves two functions. To keep you in hell and the other, to keep you from going back.

                Sexual abuse is a shame that will try to keep you in hell. I know this from experience.

                Shame for doing something against your conscience, hopefully, will keep you out.

                Judgement belongs to my God. You can call me on that, anytime.

              • Sorry, I agree with Calamity on this one. BDSM was just an element of CL’s post, not the topic. And now the thread becomes about BDSM.

                I’m disappointed b/c I thought it would be fun reading some of the false advertising our exes came up with.

              • FWIW, I think many times we get bogged down in our own sensitivities and react strongly to things that “ache” our wounds or are out of alignment with our own beliefs or touch parts of us that remain unhealed. When I read Sam’s post, I felt she was attempting to educate us on how adults in a reciprocal, trusting relationship view and practice a certain area of their sexuality, as opposed to the Craiglist ramblings and hook-ups of Chumpified’s soon-to-be-kicked-to-the-curb horror-of-a-husband. I don’t think she was advocating for or against BDSM – just explaining it in relation to that God-awful post.

                During my long-term marriage to the Flaming Turd From Satan’s Ass, I consented to many things sexually that, in retrospect, I probably “consented” to under coercion because I thought it would keep him happy. However, my participation was based on the belief that I could trust him and that I was safe with him and because I loved him. Some things were enjoyable, some things were tedious because I found them objectifying and added nothing to achieving any type of intimacy. I have long since gotten over being angry at myself for being a loving, faithful and trusting spouse to a dirtbag who never appreciated it nor deserved it.

                I think we all come here to heal, help heal, educate and be educated – but mostly to provide support to one another in all of our gloriousness and with any and all of our flaws.

        • I’m with Sam. My tastes run a bit on the wild side, but everyone involved has to communicate, agree, be respectful. There has to be a safe word and respect. Honestly (and sorry if I’m sharing too much), my XH never “got” that about me. Our sex was very vanilla and very very quick. I tried, a couple times, to gently introduce a few variations and he would just freak out with fear (at the very least, it most certainly did not turn him on) so that was off the table. Too bad. It can be fun, but (obviously) only if both people find it fun. (I remember having a boyfriend who used to like to dress up like Sherlock Holmes… very sexy….) It doesn’t have to be Maplethorpe level kink, there’s a whole gradient. If it’s not your bag, that’s cool. But be careful about lumping everything into one big category — *MY* category does not include “50 Shades of Grey.”

          • Damn, NWB–you mention Sherlock Holmes and all of us on that forum thread about 2 weeks ago are now going to re-invigorate our Benedict Cumberbatch fantasies.

            And speaking of 50 shades of Grey; the ONLY way to hear it is when Gilbert Gottfried reads it [WARNING: NSFW; if you’re actually a fan of the book/s, this may not be for you!]

    • Well spoken, Portia. Unfortunately in this age of easy technology what an uphill battle it is. I know 15 year old girls who can’t wait to see Fifty Shades of Gray and they’re far too young to figure out that the message there is wrong. I don’t even know if the book or movie get to that point because I had no desire to see/read them. All young teens will get from that movie is I have to do everything he wants or I’ll lose him.

      Sex education needs to include a whole new realm of activities, demands and requests because No doesn’t just mean NO if you don’t want to have sex, but if you don’t want to have sex in certain ways.

      I work in a child abuse assessment center and I can’t tell you how many 11 year old girls I hear saying things that they just shouldn’t be talking so causally about, such as, “He said he wanted anal.” My heart breaks for them!

      To be a parent of a young teen these days must be truly frightening.

      • Two years ago, when my youngest son graduated from high school, he showed me a few photos posted on Facebook from his grad prom. One photo in particular struck me – it was a lovely picture of 8 of his female classmates, linked arm in arm, all beautifully dressed in their prom dresses, broadly smiling at the camera. Women on the cusp of adulthood. Some of these girls were tagged in the picture with an acronym – GWTIUTA – Girls Who Take It Up The Ass. My son claims he wouldn’t know who tagged them, but yes, everyone in his class knew the message was true and apparently for some of the girls, it was a badge of honour. I know these women – I know their parents. What are parents to make of their young daughters being publically labelled for their sexual predilections? Why do these girls think it’s OK to be sexually objectified? Whatever happened to young women being proud of making the honour roll, or being the class valedictorian? Whatever gains the women’s movement made in the last few generations have been lost on young women of today. Gloria Steinem must be shaking her head.

        • Tflan, I hear you. These boys and girls are being exposed to really kinky sex online and they think it’s NORMAL. Someone needs to tell them that it isn’t normal!

          Look, I’ve been married more than a few times and had way too many lovers, I swear I’m no prude, but my god, even listening to pop music on the radio songs are filled with “shake that ass” bullshit. That video JLo did with Iggy where almost the entire video focuses on their butts! JLo should fucking be ashamed — what a message to send out.

          How can girls maintain self respect and consider themselves equals when everything still revolves around being sexy? They can’t. And when girls and women speak up about it they’re put down.

          Thank goodness for people like Amy Poehler who is a champion for girls http://amysmartgirls.com we need more people like her.

          • I’m glad a celebrity like Amy is trying to counter this message. My own daughter has made it safely to adulthood and is able to stand proudly as her gay self though that doesn’t mean she hasn’t been affected by our culture of misogyny. I know that for me, that backdrop had a lot to do with why I thought I should submit to things I didn’t really want to do with Cheater all in the name of keeping him happy. I am struggling to stay open minded but it’s hard. So many horrible words still ringing through my consciousness.. I am not a slut, a cunt, a whore, or your “little fucktoy”. Yes, okay that was just “his kink” but there is hatred and misogyny behind it. There is an evil desire (yes, evil) to turn another human being into an object. That is also what misuse of porn does, and what the porn industry does.

            Seriously, I’m no Polly Purebread either. I was married before my Ex, for ten years and we had lots of what you call vanilla sex. and in my 20s before I was married, yes, I had lots of sex, everyone was doing that back then.

            Serious issues here to learn from.

            As a side note, I am stricken by the iron that my Ex’s O-Whore, who by the way has never had any kids (one of the reasons he told me she’d be better for him than me with my 3 grown up kids who live out of state) — guess where she works? She’s a fundraiser for the Girl Scouts. She appears in public events smiling like some kind of role model. Some role model, willing to fuck another woman’s man secretly behind my back and probably even at my house while I was work. And her boyfriend (my cheating ex) fantasizes about raping young girls and is a poor man’s Christian Gray. Sometimes I really do think the world is a crazy place!!! The inmates are running the asylum.

          • I’ve had to have this conversation with my 13-year-old son. Just the other day we were discussing the Vanderbilt gang rape (he has limited understanding of what it entailed) and I told him that if there is ever a girl who is incapacitated in any way and friends of his or even strangers want to take advantage of her, he better be the brick wall standing between her and disaster. I explained to him there are not different “types” of girls – that it doesn’t matter if a girl has a reputation as a “slut” – she is a human being and she is a female, the same as me, his adored aunt and his beloved grandmother.

            We’ve got to teach boys to see girls as human beings – not objects. It doesn’t matter if society or even the girls objectify themselves. I told him that if any male feels he needs to get what he wants from a female who is not able to consent, that says everything about the male and that makes him a rapist.

            I can’t believe I have to tell my son this, but the sexist crap he’s bombarded with everyday makes it mandatory. I would love to start workshops at our middle school for girls and boys. This should come from the parents but sadly, dad’s on Craigslist trolling for girls not much older than their own daughters and mom’s dancing on bars, taking selfies and posting them on Facebook. When did everyone forget that when you become a parent you need to grow the fuck up????

            • Three teenage daughters here. I try to educate them against misandry , princess/entitlement issues and male disposable rampant in our culture, too.

            • Thank you. I have seen how my ex and his friends talk about women. They needed a mother/father to set them straight. We can’t go along with this and we can’t shame the women who do. This isn’t sex and it certainly isn’t love. It’s a bad imitation of a Stanley Kubrick film.

              • Jen, I want my son to have huge respect for women, men and himself. With what’s out there in music, what can be accessed on the internet, etc. I just want him to know that no human being is his (or anyone else’s) toy. Arnold, not for nothing, but along with what you’re teaching them, which I think is good because it does go both ways, teach them to require more of themselves and not to allow anyone – male or female – to subjugate them.

            • Prior to my sons beginning to date I told them almost daily in any conversation that somehow got directed to sex (and with boys, that seems to happen too routinely, especially when their father is a “porn king”) that they were to show respect to all women, even if someone of their acquaintance did not exercise the good judgment to have respect for herself. I told them to treat other women as they would want men to treat their sisters. I have also recently apologized and cautioned them to let my former life with their father be a cautionary tale and let the rest of my life be an example.

              I still reiterate that message to this day – as their father is/was neither a verbal nor lived example.

  • If I had a quarter for every time I heard “it was only once”… This chump finally made the connection between all the new tricks stbx had brought to the bedroom, and the affair partners he’d only banged “once”. Would love to throw some proof in his face, but I don’t think I’ll find any.

      • You’re right laj. I’ve been working on my warped sense of self. I’ve felt insignificant for too long… even before my stbxh. I’ve made great strides in every other area of my life. Filing for divorce will be a huge personal victory for me, not because he’s out of my life so much as demanding something more, something better for myself.

  • Oy ve, Chumpified…so glad you are running in the opposite direction from the king of kink. My heart goes out to you. I qualify as a former chump because one of my old boyfriends had been having his way with crack ho’s and “going both ways” as well behind my back. Granted, it was many years ago, and I have since been with the same wonderful man for 20 years… Sadly, back then, it took me awhile to realize that I didn’t deserve to be treated that way. Luckily, my HIV test was negative. I am glad that you are taking action now that you have learned the horrible truth. It’s quite a shock indeed. I am glad you also have maintained your sense of humor. Humor is what has saved me so many times from jumping permanently into that pit of despair….
    Bless you, dear.
    Lisa

    • Austine92, this is what my ex was doing, but as far as I know only with women. He will admit to the drugs, including crack, but not the women, even as I have evidence.

      It is over for good now, but I never could get an answer about the women, and I find that unsettling. Has your husband explained any of this too you? I have so many questions that will never be answered.

      By the way, you cannot tell by his looks or his behavior that he does these things. He is very functional at his job, and clean cut. That is why it took me awhile to realize it.

  • Craigslist is a vile place. I recently saw that my STBX responded to the ad of a woman looking for a cuckold, which is a huge fantasy of his. He’d talk about me doing stuff with other men while he watched — something I’d never consider in a million years. In his email to the woman he wrote to her that “my ex wife and I used to do that all the time and it was soooooo hot.”

    Yes, the extra o’s were his. All of this right in the middle of the affair with the new love of his life, young Heather Ann, who is probably too pure for him to tell his fantasies to.

    If Craigslist was a building, I’d consider blowing it up.

    • ML you are so fortunate to be away from that POS. You are a dignified lady who can hold her head high. Don’t you just love the way our ex husbands use us as props in their narrative for their devious wants and desires? You would never have grown had you have stayed with your ex. He was cruel and that will never change but from now on, not to you but to some other unsuspecting female or male!!

    • ML, I would consider sending that little missive to young Heather Ann.. but really don’t go to craigslist… nothing good can come of it.

    • ML,
      1. You never did any of that crap with him.
      2. You are not his ex-wife yet.
      3. He is a fucking creep.
      I agree with ROMOB–forward the email to “Hen” via an anonymous email account/server. Or, better yet, hack into *his* email (which is how you saw it in the first place) and send it FROM HIM.

        • We love you, too!

          Just to be on the safe side, better copy that email now or take a screen shot before he wises up and deletes it.

            • Oh, ML, that’s so funny. I thought about giving up reading the MOW’s Pinterest for Lent, but it’s too entertaining. I keep having dreams about turning around and letting all that go, so I’m sure that’s not far away, even though her “I’m so lonelyyyyy” and “I am so good to other people but no one seeeeees my painnnnnn” is mesmerizing. Good for you to cut that cord! I’m not far behind.

  • I love how he’s all about pre-arranged “perfection” and perfect bodies and warmth and perfect trust, but then he’s all about being “real.” News flash, Chuckles, “real” isn’t “perfect.” The reason none of these perfectly planned and choreographed scenarios turn into “perfect” relationships is that there are TWO people involved. Christian GreyHair is projecting his fantasies onto a sex doll with a pulse, an imaginary perfect woman who has no desires or agency of her own. She will simply lay there and take on his humiliating, degrading treatment, all the while “adoring” him and cooing over his perfect manliness.

    Pardon me while I go vomit.

  • I really don’t find this funny but I did get a sense of ironic amusement out of the “non-smoker” statement. That would be the least of my concerns about an ad like this.

  • Chumpified: My heart truly goes out to you – that a man you loved could disrespect you in such a way. Sometimes we find out quickly, and many times it may take years. The good thing is you now know and despite the hurt, can move on. Hugs…Ro

    • He also mentioned no D/D. Is that drugs and diseases? Wow how would he know about being disease free? Does he race off to the health department to get screened for all of the diseases that he could get?

      • Twitching—-HA! That’s funny! But seriously…he’s ALREADY told everyone, I AM A LIAR (I am attached. Discretion is a must.)

        Why would he tell the truth about being d/d (and yes, it’s drugs and disease free, Kim). This whole ad is just contradictions and fantastical, magical thinking bullshit.

        He’s a liar and he says so in black and white. gah!

  • What I truly do NOT get is …this…are there really women out there who would answer an ad like this? Really?? Unless she’s a prostitute I can’t imagine ANY self respecting woman answering an ad by a creepy perv like this. Gawd, on Craigslist no less. Be sure and bring your own shovel so the creeper can bury you when he’s done. I don’t believe ANY woman would answer an ad like this unless she promised LOTS and LOTS of money and is a hooker.

    Ewwww. Just Ewww. Chumpified be sure and let us know when you get away from this Freak Show.

    I’ve been married twice (once to the cheater) and I can say whatever I want about them but neither one was into gross disgusting kinky shit like this. This is a particular stomach turner.

  • Last summer, my ex loaned our son his laptop for a while. First chance I got, I looked through the history (he hadn’t cleared it.) He had looked at several man-looking-for-man ads on Craigslist and they were SO obscene and gross. No idea if he had answered the ads, but probably yes. There was other gay hookup stuff on the computer as well.

    Out of curiosity I looked at some of the other personal ads on Craigslist, and they were almost all the grossest of the gross. I cannot imagine anyone desperate or degenerate enough to answer a Craigslist personal ad. Definitely putting your life at risk.

    Chumpified, I am SO GLAD you are getting away from that pervert. Please be careful, cheaters who are leading complete double lives like that can be dangerous once the game is up.

  • Oh BTW….I found OW’s ex husband on Craigslist with a similar disgusting ad with pictures of his balls all trussed up. (A friend told me he was on there so I looked) The ad was SO BAD!!! Absolutely disgusting! This was the man that the OW thought was okay enough to marry and stay with for 25 years. I couldn’t help myself kids, I forwarded the ad to my XH and told him this was Schmoopies XH.

  • As always, I guess I’m the weird maverick here… I met my current spouse on craigslist. Yes, it’s full of sleaze and scum. Not all the personals sections are though. I’d tried a lot of other dating sites and actually got the best results out of craigslist. The other sites were filled with people that were even weirder/worse, if possible.

    What inspired me to reply to Chumpified’s tale of woe (sending you BIG HUGE JEDI HUGS ’cause your STBXH is Fifty Shades of Unbelievably Messed Up) was when I first starting posting personal ads on CL after my second divorce. Now, 2ndX (2X for short) had left me for someone jaw-droppingly younger – who was 2X’s perfect target combination of needy, compliant, homely, low self-esteem, willing, and financially secure enough to support them both so 2X wouldn’t ever have to work again. So I figured we were done… DONE done, right? You’ve moved on, found a new host animal, I certainly don’t miss you, no children together, no further need for contact, we all go our separate ways, right? Apparently not.

    2X continued to troll craigslist – and every time I posted an ad (mind you, I never posted pix, so it wasn’t easy to spot which ad(s) were mine), 2X would send me an email critiquing it. Telling me things like “you’re trying too hard to find a new relationship” or that a recent ad was cute & well-written & that I was likely to get a good response from it. Also, I got flagged all the time – I’m sure now it was 2X doing a lot of that. I realized later that it was an attempt to keep me on the back burner in case the new relationship didn’t work out.

    2X wanted to do things like “keep us still ‘married’ but in a secondary way; you’d be my secondary wife and XXXXXXXXX would be my primary wife” and continue to celebrate our wedding anniversary every year as if nothing had happened. When all the critiquing/contact was happening I just thought 2X was weird and annoying and just didn’t know when to quit; I didn’t think much more of it than that. I was too busy with kids and work and rebuilding my life and dealing with nearly 100K in debt I was left with. I realize now as I’m writing this that it was controlling, creepy, stalker behavior. I’m lucky 2X is a lazy bastard who never made any effort, which is why nothing bad ever happened. Knowing what I know now, it could have been so much worse.

    • Sunny…my beautician met her wonderful husband on Craigslist so it can happen. I’m thinking these particular ads where Chumptified’s husband was were under ‘Casual Encounters.’ I think that’s where the delusional perv’s hang out. Actually THINKING for one minute that some woman is going to contact them. If I want to be treated like a whore I certainly expect to be paid like one!

    • “2X wanted to do things like “keep us still ‘married’ but in a secondary way; you’d be my secondary wife and XXXXXXXXX would be my primary wife” and continue to celebrate our wedding anniversary every year as if nothing had happened. ”

      And you TURNED DOWN that very generous offer?!?! You had a chance to play second string for a Splendid Person, and said NO?! It’s no wonder we chumps are living in our lonely bunkers with our hundred cats. We just don’t know when we have it good.

  • This reply is for Sam — I don’t know why I cannot reply to your last message at this time, by hitting “reply” next to the message — but anyway —

    I don’t think we are in disagreement about how we feel about the issue of the post. I don’t see it if we are. None of my comments are aimed at your personal choices. When I say I have a problem with what constitutes consent, or that I don’t l like or understand the Craigs list ad, I am not implying that you have an opposing point of view.

    We don’t agree on the appeal of the BDSM lifestyle, but I have not researched it or experienced it. I have no interest in it. So I suppose it would be better for me to say that it would be a problem FOR ME if I encountered a potential partner who could not find satisfaction unless pleather, handcuffs, submission, etc was involved because none of those things appeal TO ME. If you, as a consenting adult, are attracted to a potential partner who is a consenting adult, and you both choose to interact only in that manner — that is entirely your business and I have no judgement on that at all. So I am not in disagreement with your right to your preference.

    I think sometimes on these forums that it is easy to take offense where none is meant. Perhaps we are careless with the way we express ourselves. I try to be careful when I express my opinion, not to offend others, because I believe we are all entitled to our opinions. I have noticed, for instance, that if I, as a woman, express something about males in general based on my own experience, that it can offend the males on this forum who do not act in that manner. My opinion was not aimed at all males, just the ones I had come into contact with who did something I did not like. A generalization or a stereotypical description is not a clear way to express that. I apologize for any sloppy content or expression I may have made or will make in the future. Please forgive me, I may say something that comes out wrong — but it is not my intent to offend. I believe most of the folks who post on this forum intend to support each other and come here for the sense of community. It is a way to not feel so alone, and we have experienced betrayal, and can comfort each other thru the recovery from that betrayal. Just as all of our Ex’s are not exactly alike, all of our experiences and viewpoints are not alike.

    Generally, my concerns are for those who don’t make active decisions, but who go thru life trusting others too much, or following guidelines others have set out for them. I want people to think about their options and choose their own path. I want people to realize there is always a consequence when they choose a particular action, and realize that they are responsible for their choice. It is a way to overcome being a victim, a path to self actualization. It is my personal belief that this is the only way to achieve a realistic level of happiness in this flawed world we live in.

    • I think you are correct and that we do agree in the big picture.

      That said, there are some comments that have been made that I consider shaming rather than “I don’t like/get/understand.” Most people who have kinks are not broken, disgusting, low lifes, mentally ill, etc. One can express their lack of understanding or displeasure without calling someone disgusting.

      Also, there are some misconceptions. Some people who are into BDSM do not involve sex at all. Some people who are into BDSM don’t involve that in their sexual encounters all the time – they sometimes have what is referred to as “vanilla” sex.

      I think there are a lot of misconceptions and plenty of reactions that come from those misconceptions.

      In the end, any comments like mine generally go over like a lead balloon so I will bow out now. I just wish people would be more careful about shaming other people about these issues.

      I’m certain every single one of you knows someone in some type of alternative lifestyle, but they don’t share that information with you because they know you don’t approve. Being open to communication about what we don’t understand is how we practice acceptance and empathy.

      • p.s.

        ALL LIARS AND CHEATERS SUCK regardless of their proclivities…

        NO ONE should ever do anything they do not want to do regardless of the activity or context. No one should be forced to do things they do not want to do.

        Creeps are creeps regardless of their proclivities…

        Abusers are abusers regardless of their proclivities…

      • sam, I find a variety of perspectives to be very helpful. I thought about replying to what you wrote but I decided what I had to say was less important than the dialogue already going on. I think of “consent” in two ways: in the legal sense, is the individual old enough to make the choice, sober enough to make the choice, and in no way coerced to make the choice? That would be legal consent.

        Then there is the more subtle part, in which people agree to participate in acts that they are not emotionally, psychologically or intellectually prepared to participate in. This might happen if someone gets involved intimately with a person with masochistic tastes that were hidden early on and is then slowly and subtly “groomed,” much in the way pedophiles groom victims. The assumption would be that the partner being groomed is an adult and thereby consenting, but the already-established emotional relationship works coercively, because people who “love” their partners want to please them and preserve the relationship. So I think the issue of consent is deeply complex, and as you so clearly state, sam, sexual practices that experiment with things like control, submission and bondage, require strong boundaries and trust if the experience isn’t going to degenerate into degradation and abuse.

        For chumps (or people who are going to find themselves champed but don’t know it yet), this sort of thing is very dangerous, because narcissist/sociopath sorts of cheaters have no empathy, so nearly any sexual act with such a person will end up feeling abusive.

        I looked at those Craigslist ads once to see if Jackass was going there to meet kibble dispensers. I saw an ad once in which a father and a son purported to be looking for a live-in housekeeper who would essentially provide sex on demand in whatever configuration either required. The job was on a houseboat. All I could think of was that some woman was going to be dumped overboard some day.

        I’ve never gotten involved in the exotic stuff (although exH1 was interested). But I wish I had know from age 16 on that if I didn’t feel loved, cherished, RESPECTED, and cared about in a relationship, I should leave

          • You can lead a kinky lifestyle and be/feel cherished, respected and cared about.

            I honestly think that people have serious misconceptions about what alternative relationships involved.

            If you met me and my kinky partner you wouldn’t even suspect. You would find us extremely normal. We are completely open and honest with each other. We have a high level of communication. Nothing we do could/would work if we didn’t completely trust and respect each other. I have never had this level of respect and communication in any other relationship I’ve ever had.

            Making blanket statements or deciding what something is without finding out the reality just perpetuates biases, stereotypes and prejudices.

            • I found your remarks helpful. Especially agree with you on the creepy abusive book/movie 50 shades. I refuse to watch the movie, a sample of the book was enough to make clear it was not about true BDSM or variations of. Many people have fantasies of certain aspects of BDSM and some try them out with safety in mind. Some find themselves trying more kink. If they do it responsibly and with safety in mind, not abuse, I have no issues with it.

          • I think people sometimes agree to things they aren’t ready for. Teenage girls having sex with older men come to mind. The law recognizes they are not able to consent based on their age and immaturity. I think there are adults who are similarly needy or who are duped into marrying predators.

  • I don’t think anyone is shaming anyone. Even CL said whatever blows your skirt up. I mean in the big picture, who cares? But I do think it’s disgusting that these men (some married) actually think there are women willing to hook up with some STRANGER to get their kink on. Talk about dangerous. I read recently that when Craigslist comes to town AIDS goes up 14%.

    And personally, as a single woman if I met a guy and he was into this stuff. No way. I got involved with a guy like this years ago and talk about a mindfuck. It was the MOST abusive relationship I’ve ever been in and thank God I got away from him.
    Each to own. There’s a lid for every pot.

    • Syringa, there ARE women willing to answer ads like that for risky sex with total strangers. There are LOTS of them! That’s how my cheater and met nearly all of his dozen sluts. He proposed meeting up, described what he wanted, they jumped on board, and kinky sex went down in a van in a gas station parking lot, or in a hotel, or in some stupid woman’s house. None of them had any guarantee that he wasn’t a serial killer or a rapist or HIV positive, and NONE of them cared. For every lying bastard who posts an ad, no matter how deluded, there is an equally sick deluded partner to answer it. They breed like bacteria, I guess.

      • And your husband ,as well, was risking his safety.
        I am not sure why anyone would question where one finds willing women partners. Some women love this stuff and actively seek out men for it.
        if they are single and honest and the men are likewise, what is the problem?

        • What made me REALLY angry was that my cheating husband was risking MY safety!!

          “IF THEY ARE SINGLE AND HONEST…” There’s the rub. If two unattached people want to risk their lives for unsafe sex, they are welcome to go ahead. (I still think they are stupid.) But many of these anonymous Craigslist folks are NOT single. All of the women my ex met with were married and knew he was married, and no one gave a damn. All of them agreed to unprotected sex. No one involved in the event — including my pos cheater — cared that innocent chumps were being exposed to any number of STDs, or to stalkers, or to criminals or to whatever. People like my ex and Chumpified’s cheater know that there will never be any dearth of available and willing takers to conspire in their lying, cheating and destruction of the unwitting spouse.

          Syringa said she had trouble believing there are so many awful people out there. I was merely assuring her there are.

        • Not for nothing Arnold but who the hell cares that Kristen’s husband was risking his life? He’s the cheating POS in the relationship.

          Kristen only cares and very rightfully so, that he risked her life.

  • Hmmm, not really my thing. Hey, if your husband wants that, that’s his choice. Doesn’t mean you have to want that, though. Diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks.

    The larger point remains that he’s doing this behind your back.

    Near the end, my ex-wife was on the phone once with her friend, talking about sex clubs. (Apparently this was something her an her AP had discussed, although never attended.) During the conversation with her friend, my wife mocked me. “Can you imagine JC! In a sex club! Yeah, right!”

    It always struck me as just…detached from reality.

    First, and most importantly, my ex-wife was right. I had no desire to go to sex clubs. I didn’t realize this made me someone worthy of derision.

    Second, since when did my wife want to go to sex clubs?!? She’d not once, ever, expressed any curiosity in pursuing such a pastime. Perhaps before going to her friends and mocking me for not understanding her desires, the preceding step should have been to *talk* with me about her desires, no?

    Third, and most importantly, although my ex-wife was a cheating whore, she wouldn’t last 15 minutes in a sex club. It must have been thrilling for her to think she’s all edgy and open-minded, but the fact is she’d discover soon enough that people in there look like the rest of us…or worse than the rest of us. Sex clubs are not a scene out of Stanley Kubrick’s Eyes Wide Shut, full of beautiful, clean, bathed people fornicating. No, they’re full of people with sexual fetishes…those who tend to walk on the margins of society.

    Of course, I know now that all of this sex club talk was just another one of my ex-wife’s failed attempts to find something wrong with me. Ergo, I was a terrible husband because I preferred boring old monogamy. How traditional!

    And please don’t take offence: I’m all for other lifestyles. Live and let live. Let your freak flag fly.

    But be honest with yourself, and with your spouse, about what you really want. If there’s something you desire, and it’s not compatible with your spouse’s sexual tolerance, then you either (a) don’t get to have it, or (b) get divorced so you can have it. Simple as that.

    • Yup. I had no idea my (soon ex) H was into this stuff. He never ever even brought it up to me. So much for open communication. Anyways, for those who asked “who would answer these ads”? I will tell you. They are women who were most likely abused earlier in life and in order to live with that fact, had to convince themselves, in some way, that they liked it. That’s what the csat says anyways. Basically, my H exploited damaged women for his own sexual satisfaction. Boy, did I pick a winner or what? And yes, it’s still all a complete and total shock. Right now I’m surviving on adrenalin and rage (with a bit of humor on the side). If I’m perfectly honest, I’m probably still in shock.

      • Chumpified: Yes, you probably are still in shock. It’s a protective mechanism, and when it starts to subside, the pain is terrific. You’ll probably continue to find out more and more as time goes on, and the shock-pain cycle will return. I’m sorry you have to go through it. I just wanted to warn you, as I was unprepared to heal, then get slapped down into the depths of despair with new information (5.5 months since D-day, divorced yesterday, but new info I heard on Tuesday has sent me into a tailspin at just how cruel my X was willing to be years ago during his affair).

        Get out, and go NC as soon as possible. It’s the only thing to start healing from the horror and mindfuckery.

      • They are women who were most likely abused earlier in life

        —–

        Not necessarily so….

        Clearly some men use/abuse women, some women use/abuse men. That said, just because someone lives in an alternative relationship doesn’t mean they are automatically user or abusers or want to be used or abused or have been abused as children.

        • As a survivor of both sexual and physical abuse, I can tell you, quite frankly, that ad is the stuff that nightmares are made of for me. That scenario would be the last thing in the world that would draw me. Any guy that made up his mind to force me into anything…..well, I’d be loading my .357 magnum and he just might find himself under MY floor boards. I know that sounds extreme, but once you have found yourself utterly powerless to save yourself from repeated humiliation and degradation it starts to make sense. I will never be that victim again.
          .

          • I’m sorry for your experience. My point is that alternative lifestyles are NOT about abuse or forcing people to do anything. EVER.

            Of course you would not be drawn to alternative relationships given your experiences.

            I am also armed so guns don’t scare me either.

            I’m just saying that not everyone who is involved in an alternative lifestyle or who participates in BDSM is an abuser or a freak or mentally ill. Honestly I’ve dealt with far saner people in the kink community than in the general population.

            Too each their own.

            • Sam I am not judging in any way…I have absolutely no problem with other’s choices…..simply that it would not be anything I would even remotely consider for myself because it would be extremely traumatic for me.

              While i find it puzzling why someone would put themselves through the experience if they have a history of abuse, certainly, I am aware that each person handles these things in their own way.

              As for abusers in alternate lifestyles, I am fully aware that it would take ironclad boundaries and a high level of trust for a couple to play in such a way, (I do get that it is pretend). My guess is that the actually abusive people would get kicked to the curb pretty damn quick.

              • Sam, I’m not knocking the life style. I do wonder about girls/women who would allow this treatment from a stranger. Please don’t try and tell me there is nothing wrong with them. I found the videos my narc took of each of his encounters. He whipped their butts till they were red. He had them hog tied and looking ready to be put on the spit. Some of them were younger than his step daughter (my daughter from my first marriage) barely 18. Despite whatever alternative kink was employed, my husband used and exploited weak women for his personal sexual gain.

    • I realize I wrote “most importantly” twice. Whoops. Number 1 is still most important: I don’t want sex clubs. Period.

    • JC–it’s their way of devaluing us. My XH tried to paint me as “unsophisticated” because I couldn’t accept calmly that he could have an affair years ago, and then come back to the marriage as if nothing had happened. Of course, all those times I propped the narcissist up at dinner parties, I must have been the “unsophisticated” one.

      Who gives a tinker’s dam what they think? If they believe their morals are so edgy, why didn’t they pick partners just like themselves? Because they want all the perks of sexual novelty outside the marriage, the claim they are “edgy,” and someone reliable at home to give them stability.

      Screw ’em–I want someone reliable at home, too, and it isn’t cheater-X.

    • “The larger point remains that he’s doing this behind your back.”—Indeed, that’s the point. The spouses of this type of cheater didn’t sign up for this stuff. And then they have the choice of either tolerating it or leaving.

  • My comments from the time I started commenting here are in 100% agreement that there is no excuse for lying and cheating. Personality disorders, mindfucks, putting your partner’s health at risk, etc = all unacceptable.

    If you want to sleep around, don’t get married or find a partner who is ok with it.

    I’ve been cheated on by every person I’ve ever been involved with. I have ZERO TOLERANCE for cheating.

    My comments in this thread are simply that just because someone has a kink or is in an alternative relationship doesn’t automatically make them mentally ill, a cheater, a liar, broken, disgusting, etc. In fact, the people I know in open relationships have a admirably high level of open and honest communication.

    • Gotta agree with Sam. I make no judgment about folks turn ons. S/M, bondage, whatever. No problem.
      I bet there are kind, nice, honest folks who like being tied up or vice versa. Just like there are disordered fucks who like straight missionary.

      • Ohh, Arnold, that’s such a nice (and true) thing to say! Truly!! XO

        Sam, I think it’s all cool. And, honestly, thanks for speaking up. Like I said in a post way up above there somewhere, my own tastes are a bit on the wild side, and XH always made me feel bad about suggesting even mild stuff like role-playing or blindfolds, so I backed off. It’s ok, it’s just not his thing, but he always sorta reacted, like, “Ewww, what’s WRONG with you???” Personally, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me. It’s just for fun.

        Anyway, thanks.

  • Well, I’m very happy with some of the comments from people who understand my points and are open to the discussion! Yay! So it was worth putting my thoughts out there for discussion. I usually get my ass handed to me…lol

    Someone mentioned consent issues. Someone responded that they didn’t think consent issues were all that complicated. In the big picture I agree that consent isn’t very complicated.

    You can have a non-kinky person do a number on another non-kinky person just as easily as a kink doing a number on a non-kink.

    Which brings me to my larger point.

    When we stop sweeping things under the rug, when we start discussing things like this, when we open our minds to understanding things like this we automatically make things safer – kink or non-kink – FOR EVERYONE.

    Discussion helps everyone, keeps EVERYONE SAFER, etc. If no one called bullshit on the IRC then people wouldn’t know that the IRC IS BULLSHIT….see what I mean?

    Anyway, by the numbers there are far more abusive non-kinks than kinks since the kink community is smaller than the non-kink community. I’ve had my mind fucked far more and worse by non-kinks than kinks. I find the kinks I run into, know and/or hang out with to be far more honest and open than most non-kinks I run into, know and/or hang out with.

    kinkily yours,
    sam (a female, for perspective)

    • Thank you, Sam, for being so brave here. One of the reasons that I tell only an abbreviated version of my betrayal story is that people tend to get all hung up in the fact that my stbx’s affair was a D/s thing, rather than on the fact that he LIED to me for 7 years. They tell me I should leave because he is into handcuffs and spanking, rather than because he disrespected me and abused my trust. I’ve tried to explain that I am fine with the kink, and might even have been into it if he had ever asked me.

      But he didn’t. He decided on his own that unprotected sex with total strangers was preferable to honesty with his wife of 20+ years. He abused my trust and lied and gaslighted and stole time and energy from me and my kids. And THAT is what makes him a sick, evil asshat, NOT the kink.

        • Cant say that I agree Sam. I am no prude… Kissed a few girls… And I liked it. Little slap and tickle…all good. And I have had mind blowing sex without the props and buzz kills with all the bells and whistles… Just short of a pony. Its the partner and the connection …. Trust….And its not always about love. I have had great sex with someone that I didnt love. The problem I have is sexual predators. People who use their fetishes, kinks and jollies to abuse, diminish and control people. And its truely not for sexual pleasure. These disordered individual find their victims and waste no time in whittling away at their integrity. Shaming them. And it very insidious. It starts slowly and they see how far they can go under some guise of being’ kinking or experimenting’ next thing you know is you are coerced into having sex with prostitutes and despite your replusion you continue in the game. its the power they have over you.
          And please lets be honest… there is kink along a spectrum… Sometimes its a very thin line.
          People who are closet pooch screwers are a breed of their own.

    • I’do venture that kink or no kink has little bearing on integrity. Sexual proclivities are but a fraction of what comprises us, and I just have never noticed any relationship between them and character (rapists, pedophiles excepted, of course).

  • Eeeeeew, grab the car keys, empty the joint bank account, and get the heck out of there before he gives you a disease…..

  • This was very triggering for me today. I read this story this morning and felt horrible. I haven’t felt this bad in a long time. At 1pm today, I met with a mortgage broker and finally filled out the application to refinance the marital home, 2 years after the divorce. Low credit scores and missed mortgage payments through the end of the marriage. Yes, its has been 2 years since the divorce was final…it just took that long for my credit to qualify for a refinance. I have been drinking since the meeting was over, the next thing to work on.

    Anyways, my WAW was the submissive in this story. Not sure why. She didn’t want to have sex with me but did with other guys. I have known that for years, but it hit me hard today. It really did. She got fucked by a lot of dudes….and loved it. I knew nothing. People like your ex-husband’s were fucking my wife.

    I think I am going to stop looking at Chumplady. I bought the book and am a believer. It’s just that the first thing I do every morning is pull up this Blog. I’m done with this. CL is much better than SI or TAM, but I am just done.

    I bought the book, I will refer anyone who is ever cheated on…but I’m done. I think I need to step away from this to heal me. Thanks, CL.

    • ffghtr67, you may not see this but please know that we all support your decision to come or go from CL any time you like. This place can get very, very triggering. I hope that I “graduate” from this place someday, but I’m not ready yet. But there are days when a particular post can bring me down and god knows I don’t need to be more down. CL herself would be the first to tell you to take care of yourself first and do what’s right for you. I wish you well in your recovery, and also want you to know you’re welcome to come back any time.

    • I admit, I have become obsessed by all this infidelity information, as well. I know way too much about cheaters, red flags, abuse, personality disorders, gaslighting, D’ARCY etc.
      I am never going to be normal again. Just know too much about all the evil in this world now.

    • I totally understand and I’m sorry my post triggered you. I can barely go to the grocery store without being triggered. I can’t even go to my daughters school without being triggered because my POS hooked up with my daughters guidance conselor, twice. And I found the video of her sucking my husband’s nasty balls. I’m telling you I am living in hell right now. This CL ad I shared with this blog is one of the more mild ones. He had hundreds and would have 30 different ads going at the same time. He used different apps to get hidden text messages and to make phone calls. He’d video Skype in the shower, while jerking off with these women. His life revolved around this crap. He was doing it before we got married, right after we married, while I was pregnant and even when our precious newborn was less than 6 weeks old. I guess I was too busy trying to constantly pump, feed, repeat , (as I was having trouble producing enough milk I had to do this constantly) and that made him feel “lonely”. What a narc. The only things he didn’t do during our 10 year marriage is love, honor and cherish me. Now, here I am, caught in the nightmare from hell and he has shown very little actual remorse. He SAYS he’s so sorry. Sorry bub, your words hold zero weight. I often ask God “was I Hitler or something in a past life?” Like why the fuck am I having to go through this? I was a good wife. I’ll never understand.

      • What a DICK! Sounds like he made you a Sub without your consent. I think part of their predilection is abusing the shit out of their partner with all the lying behind-the-back stuff. Now onto my reason for the reply – the GUIDANCE COUNSELOR???? Hope you turned that video in to the superintendent of your school system. That whore needs to be on the unemployment line!

  • Any woman or man who would answer a craigslist ad for deviant sex or novelty sex, whatever you want to call it, with a stranger, is living a very dangerous lifestyle and was most likely inducted into this lifestyle at a very young age.

    It is sex without intimacy and for the purpose of orgasm only.

    I am sure there are a lot of upstanding, great people who do this. It is sex for sex’s sake. Game sex. The dick and the vagina rule the kingdom.

    I promise you will find on close inspection that some aspect in their young life involves a sexual predator in 90 percent of the cases.

    I personally have suffered from abuse at the hands of kinks than from non-kinks, so I would be interested in where you find your statistics.

      • It is possible that the husband was sexually abused at a younger age. It is also possible that he was overly pampered and never made to feel any consequences. Pathologies come about by both pathways (and yes, this is within my field of expertise).

        • Tempest. He was “spiritually abused” as he was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, where everything was shameful. At least that’s the excuse he’s going with. Whatevs. My childhood more than sucked too, but somehow I managed to stay faithful in my marriage. *shrugs*

          • Chumpified–I completely agree. You want “spiritually abused” related to sex?–I grew up Catholic in a seriously repressed home where I was made to feel shame for all kinds of innocuous things. I don’t cheat, or emotionally abuse people, or in any way make other people a victim of my childhood.

            These F-ers need to own what they do, regardless of childhood traumas.

        • The hilarious part of this is, I didn’t even know what “BDSM” was until his computer started vomiting out all the videos, chats, emails, CL ads, etc. I actually had to google it. Yup. Queen Chump here.

      • Now we are going into the skein of fuckupedness.

        I agree the bottom line is the cheating, dishonesty, possible STD’s and whatever else his fantasy interfered with in his family life. He was having his cake and eating it until his wife found out.

        What happens in the bedroom between two consenting adults is their business.

        Viva la difference.

        Bon Appetite.

        Fiesta!

    • Only the thought of going to prison keeps me from killing him Carrie. I’m not ashamed to admit I’ve had some pretty vivid Lorena Bobbit fantasies too. The fact is, I don’t look good in orange, so I just try to keep my distance.

  • I never had any violent fantasies re My cheating Xw, even as she woke me one night to describe the body of the young man she was with that night. No genital mutilation fantasies or anything.
    has anyone noticed that the betrayed men seldom , if ever express the desire or fantasy of physically hurting their cheating XW , despite the pain of betrayal being the same?

    I see the physical violence fantasy/desire thjng, as well as admissions to slapping or punching more frequently from betrayed women.

    • Arnold: I truly appreciate your representing the man’s point of view on these forums. In this case, however, casting men in a beatific way relative to women expressing violent fantasies is misleading and misguided. The plural of “Anecdote” is not “data.” You are wonderful for not having violent fantasies against your cheating wife. But you cannot speak for all men. For example, my therapist, a noble and gentle man, admitted to a dream of setting his cheating wife and her lover on fire.

      Your comment reeks of judgment on a site where people come to heal–with humor, with snark, etc. I have expressed thoughts of putting my cheater through a grain thresher. Would I ever do such a thing? No. Did I even so much as even slap him after D-day? No. Thoughts and fantasies are just that–a desire for the karma bus to hit the person, and a way for people to try and feel control over the most helpless situation in which they find themselves.

      Launching a war between the sexes on CL is hardly a way for any of us to heal.

        • Arnold. It’s called “sarcasm”, and is used as a means for us to handle the pain. Do you really think I dream of cutting my h’s little weewee off? Yiiiiii

            • Arnold, I think violent/revenge fantasies come from women more often because the balance of power in the home tends to lean toward the man. (Not in every case, obviously.). Even though it’s 2015, if you make an agreement with your husband to give up your career and stay home to raise children you BOTH wanted to bring into this world, the balance of financial/earning power is now completely one-sided.

              Most often, the man goes out into the world every day meeting new people, his resume stays current, he’s more likely than not earning raises and bonuses and succeeding in the business world.

              The SAHM is more and more isolated, her resume/new skills are at a standstill and she rarely sees more than other SAHMs, teachers and children. Raising children and keeping a home running smoothly is a career in itself and frankly, was the most difficult one I’ve ever had. No vacations, no time away from “co-workers”, hell – I never ever got to leave my workplace! And what it did was put me at my husband’s mercy financially. I got no salary, no bonuses, no 401K or IRA of my own.

              When the husband in this scenario decides his wife is boring now and takes off with a ho-worker, his “partner” in the business called “family” is left holding the bag. She more often than not gets custody and now she’s expected to go out and earn a decent living after being away from the workplace for many years, juggle childcare and hope that her husband sends the child support check on time this month.

              Being powerless can drive people to imagine all kinds of atrocities against the people who’ve committed atrocities against them. I’ve read story after story on this site of women who’ve had to reinvent themselves and suffer consequences of their husbands whims. They’ve been pushed into poverty and are left trying to figure out what course to take that will be least damaging to their children. The employed husband has no such worries.

              Sounds like your wife was a real bitch. My husband was a complete douchebag. We’re on the same side here, I think.

              • Yes, but when the SAHM cheats, she often gets custody and child support and alimony.
                So the dad’s efforts to support the kids mean nothing in terms of determining g who is the primary caregiver.
                Isn’t working, not cheating and being good to one’ s family caregiving?

              • “Yes, but when the SAHM cheats, she often gets custody and child support and alimony.
                So the dad’s efforts to support the kids mean nothing in terms of determining g who is the primary caregiver.
                Isn’t working, not cheating and being good to one’ s family caregiving?”

                Arnold, this is exactly what I was saying – just with reversed roles. I am in no way defending cheating SAHMs. The courts screw both sides and usually the cheater comes out smelling like a rose. That wasn’t the issue I was speaking to. It was powerlessness fueling revenge and violent fantasies. If your wife was a SAHM and she cheated? She deserves no custody and squat in terms of alimony. Again, I am AGREEING with you, dude!

              • Tempest and Uneffingbelievable, such worthy wise words. I was a SAHM, my family my #1 priority, did all the house and yard work, supported my ex’s desire for a demanding career and a beautiful home, volunteered in our schools, did fundraising, supported my children and their peers in youth sports, etc!- hell, what don’t we do!?!?-all while raising my three children to be kind, beautiful, honest young adults. In twenty years together I scrimped and saved for what we had together but my small family court did not recognize this, nor protect me from a Narc ex (who stole money, disippated assets (our house was the biggest), and left me holding the financial bag). I hammered my own settlement out while both lawyers sat back on their asses and watched the circus. When the judge in court ordered $70/month spousal support on ex’s 100k/year salary at one of our last hearings I was truly pissed. My settlement was crap, alimony was less than 10% of his Income (not including perks) and with an end date in four years. I was married for 20 years. With that money I paid our kids’ college expenses. It was bad enough to be raked over the coals financially by a mean spirited crappy ex spouse but when you have an uneducated, biased family court you get screwed over twice. I am 49, have relocated, am living way below poverty level in my county, and am trying to get a full time job. Or two part times! Happy though! 😉 Every time I interview, which is often, I see and hear things that do not make sense. The landscape crew in my city gets paid four times what I earn and they consistently hire young men. I am older and it seems people under 40 don’t believe I can do any job. I move forward because I know someone will eventually hire me and get lucky because I have great skills. So I do believe we have to do more to support women. I am all for a fair division but what gets me is that I don’t have the time or money to make up for the time lost when I was busy raising our family. IMHO, The best future employers are going to be the ones who figure this out.

              • Ranny,
                Thanks for sticking up for Moms. Hopefully you will be in a position to make hiring decisions one day.
                I never planned to be a SAHM, but Ex pushed for it, and I excelled at it. Only to be discarded at a vulnerable junction. Now I am pursuing my Masters degree. Three cheers to the day when cheaters feel the pangs of abandonment, unemployment, limited options and poverty.

              • Bravo, Ranny! You have such a great attitude you are sure land the fabulous job you deserve! I’m pulling for you!

              • Ranny–You are mighty!! and a testament to all of womanhood. I am sorry for all the establishment obstacles and cheater-POS’s treatment that you had to overcome. Your children have a fantastic role model for integrity and persistence. May you flourish!!

              • I grew up in the seventies. I have been inside every house on the street my mother still lives on because every family had a stay-at-home mom and a father working to support them. That was how it was, it is not that way now, and it is hard for all of us to understand how our respective roles changed.

                For one thing, we can all make it without a partner, even if we have children. Family obligations/ties are also different. Religious obligations are not as believable as they were then.

                Were they happier then? I doubt it. I witnessed a few family squabbles.

                At this point, we all need to be able to make it individually. We all need to be prepared to survive without a partner, and raise our children alone. Men and women, as we are equally vulnerable.

                The kink thing is just trying to hold on to some sort of codependency. If we can make it alone, we do not need to dominate or submitt.

      • Cheating is painful regardless of the gender of the betrayed. Let’s let that argument rest. It sucks, plain and simple regardless of if you are female or male.

        • That sucks,Ranny. But what I think you will see is that many of the betrayed men have been through similar hard times.
          I worked three jobs trying to keep up with my XW’S spending.
          When she cheated and took the kids to live with OM, I was left with huge debts she had incuured.
          I slept on a friend’s couch for almost 3 years while she and OM had a house and I paid 27000 a year tax free to her.
          They had three incomes and no debt and lived high on the hog.
          Many weeks I would be 3 days from payday and have less than two dollars to eat on for those 3 days.
          Many times I did not have gas money to get to work.
          Betrayed dad’s get hit really hard financialky, as well.
          Took me 3 years working 2 jobs to dig out enough to restore my once great credit and buy a small, run down condo.
          But,I had a bed for the first time in 3 years. My back is shot from years of sleeping on a lumpy sofa.
          I lost 50 lbs at one point , going from 195 to 145 in 2 months (I am 6′ 1″)
          Folks at work thought I had cancer.
          I DO NOT BELIEVE WOMEN ARE HIT ANY HARDER THAN MEN BY DIVORCE .

        • Perhaps because women, after infidelity, have been subject to a double/triple dose of helplessness–societal, marital, + the infidelity. And the FOREMOST marriage expert, Gottsman, admits as much–in a 3-decade career, he says that the best marriages (generally) are the ones where the man gives in to the woman, because (most) women naturally try to pre-empt their husband’s wishes and desires. Thus, when their wishes are ignored, they feel even more helpless and put upon and the marriage suffers. I know this was not the case in your marriage, and that you were the one to pre-empt your X’s wishes; no two marriages are the same.

          The revenge fantasies are just that–fantasies, that I (as a psychologist) believe to simply be a way to mentally regain a smidgeon of power over a situation that is mind-bogglingly painful and victimizing. And I believe that men have those fantasies, too, whether they express them or not. It took my therapist 5 months before he revealed that “fire” fantasy to me.

          • I believe men have the , too. What I found interesting was that only the women seem to have the freedom to express them or act on them with impunity. Does not sound terribly powerless to me.

            • I hope I have been following this thread correctly so please forgive me if I have not. Arnold, there are hundreds of dead women all over the US, killed by men who act on their revenge fantasies. The most dangerous time for a woman is when she is planning her escape from her abusive X. Dead women and their children…and often the perp’s suicide right next to them. I guess you can argue that this act didn’t begin as a revenge fantasy… but i am betting that it did. I am going to get even with you, you bitch…Did I miss something here in this thread. There are far few dead men, and their children killed by their xwifes. There are some, once cheater around here was famously run over and pushed into a fence by his Xwife. They do happen, but not with the frequency or deadliness as found in XH violence.

              • ringing, it is noted that 13 women in Australia have already been killed this year by their partners or ex partners and it is only the 1st March. That is 13 too many. How my own mother survived the bashings she received from my father for 20 years is beyond me but survive she did. I can tell you that my father never had any revenge fantasies. He was just a brutal and cowardly bastard and only the police and the doctors believed my mum but not a thing was done about it because back in the 60’s and 70’s here in Australia, the assumption was, what has she done to deserve it. But as the stats are showing, it is still very much happening and that attitude of blame on the woman be her dead or alive still prevails.

              • Yes, but both men and women who are physically violent are abusers who belong locked up.
                Yet, several times I have seen postings on this forum where a women assaulted and committed a battery on her lying, cheating, as hole spouse and it gets glossed over.
                Does anyone remember a man posting about having done that?
                I have little doubt it happens with regularity but no man would expect sympathy or understanding for having done it.
                Yet, I see women that do it describing it with no fear of being judged.
                Seems like a double standard on this exists. Frequency is irrelevant .

              • Arnold, I am not disputing your comments in fact I agree with them. Domestic violence against men is on the rise and it is kept quiet just as much as it is against women. Until society in general declares that violence of any type is not acceptable not much will change. Our world is becoming increasingly violent. We had a little boy of about 11 killed by his father last year when he went to watch him play cricket, so he decided to kill him as revenge on his wife which has put the focus clearly on domestic violence perpetrated by both sexes and momentum is building. I only hope that it continues. However, I would love to deck my ex !! 🙂

      • There is an old saying about dealing with a fanatic — you waste your time talking to a fanatic because he/she will never change his/her mind, and he/she will never change the subject. No matter what the post is about, the fanatic introduces his/her subject and rants on and on. It does not matter if anyone is interested. In fact, I hesitated to say anything at all here and now, because all the fanatic wants is attention for the one particular issue.

        This particular post was about a chump who found out that her spouse was not only lying and cheating on her, but also was running an ad on Craigs list that told her he was into an alternative lifestyle that she had no idea about. She was shocked and horrified on many levels.

        The discussion lost focus because of the alternative life style — some forum members talked about that instead of the lying and the cheating, and there was some misunderstanding. However, I believe the general consensus was that we should not focus on the lifestyle choice, it was a personal matter, and the chump was just using one of many, many examples of how she had been chumped by her spouse. This forum is focused on how you feel when you find out you’ve been chumped, and is a place to come to find you are not alone, and you have support from the Chump nation. Any tangents regarding issues of who is more disgusting or deviant or violent or deserving of scorn or guilty because of an affiliation with any particular group is really secondary.

        Perhaps it would be best if the fanatics among us could give their issues a rest. We may all find different reasons to be horrified, or different aspects of a story to be fascinating to us as an individual, but we really need to concentrate on giving support to the chump who needs our collective support and advice.

    • Arnold : Having had the lying, cheating, narcissistic, teen porn masturbating, horror show of a human being break into my house, assault me, and scare the hell out of our four children after I filed for divorce, I can say, YES THEY DO. I do understand your misogynistic attitude towards women. You were cheated on, and run through the wringer of our shitty justice system. It’s a horrible thing she did to you. But to state that men are less inclined toward violence than women in these situations is a crock of horseshit. They are just as inclined. Certainly more inclined to carry out their violence. And far more likely to hurt or kill the woman. I was lucky. He went to jail. And I got away with my life.

      • Irish, I remember your story from around the time I first came onto CN, and I wanted to tip my hat to you and say how blown away I am by how far you have come in the last year. It is a real inspiration to bear witness to this and how you have dealt so mightily with a hellish situation. You rock!!!

      • Many studies would disagree with you on that, Irish. Sorry about what you wen through. many men have been through similar.

    • My ex husb torched my house 2 months after I divorced him – and he thought I was in bed asleep when he did it. That shit was real. I rarely express any desire to harm either ex, for fear that something might happen to one of them and somebody might blame me. I’ve seen what the judicial system can do, and I have little faith in it.

      As for women getting custody, child support, and alimony.. that’s another generalization that kinda struck a nerve with me. Nope. Why? Because money talks and bullshit walks, I guess. And he had money enough to buy the same goddamn judge who had just two months earlier granted me that emergency divorce and no contact protective order.

      What does that judge do next? Drops the charges of arson, burglary, and attempted murder. Gives that SOB custody of my teenagers, and slaps me with child support. There’s much, much more to this story, but I can’t go there now.

      Point is – women might make (inappropriate) comments about the violent things they might do to a man, but the fact is they don’t go through with these things. I’d bet my next paycheck that none of the threats in this thread will be carried out…

      I reflect on this quote from Margaret Atwood: “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” I think this is why any threat made by a man is taken more seriously.

  • Another hilarious CL post about how cheaters are ridiculous & phoney & have their own perception of reality getting hijacked b/c of the BDSM content. No shaming the BDSM lifestyle! No shame! Be open minded! Bleck….I don’t care what you’re into, just OWN it & be honest about it to your partner.

    The issue here isn’t kink or the color/type of your freak flag (and thus I’ll keep my proclivities private). Fly it proudly or hide it in the closet but at least have the balls to OWN it.

    The issue is sleeping next to (and WITH) a stranger. For years.

    Shame…shame….shame…my STBX was weepy about it daily once our family computer started spilling his secret life. Poor sausage had to go online b/c he couldn’t bear the shame of talking about it with me. You know b/c I would have been all judgey & shit.

    YAWN.

    Chumpified, I’m in your corner. Stay strong & I pray you are able to put some distance between you & this awful POS who gets off using people.

    After 20 yrs & 2 kids & 1 DDay, I was offered the opportunity to perform the pick me dance dressed in bondage, red ball & all. And he would pay for it! I wouldn’t have to spend my own money! (?!?!?!?!)

    I very politely declined, telling him “I don’t think I’m the girl for you anymore.”

    My biggest hugs go out to the chumps reading this thread who might still regret some of the sexual things they acquiesced to in order to save their marriage. No more shame, folks. Kick some dirt over that shit & move on.

    The only “lifestyle” I take issue against is that which involves using & lying to your partner.

    • Arnold–I know you have a law degree, and I know that law training has heavy logic training. Thus, I am very certain you know the difference between all/none/some, and that when I say things like “on average” you know FULL well that I do not, nor does Gottsman, nor any other researcher, believe it applies to all cases. So, yes, Betrayed men are subject to the same helplessness as women. Do men, in general, suffer the same societal helplessness as women. Fuck no. If you doubt it, read Ben Barnes’ account of starting life as a woman and switching to a man; He is very very verbal about the discrimination he faced when a woman (and I can track down similar cases if you need further convincing).

      I agree custody laws have been discriminatory, but they are starting to catching up, even in my backwards state of Texas.

      And as to your claim that women kill more children than men–it is ONLY true in infancy, when postpartum depression and psychosis are most likely to kick in. Furthermore, if you account for base rates of the hours women vs. men spend with children, men OVERWHELMINGLY kill children more.

      Frankly, your arguments are starting to trigger me and remind me of my H’s arguments for arguments sake, with more interest in promoting your dogma than in any real discussion, so I am done as of this post.

      • I will look into reading that, Tempest.
        Will you read or watch so e of the videos by Erin Prinze and Karen Straughn.
        There are many areas besides custody where men are disadvantaged:work place mortality, funding for prostate cancer research VA breastfeeding cancer research, conscription ( historically but not presently), overall earlier mortality, lack of access to shelters, much higher % of homelessnes.
        Your XW was a cheater, right? The fact that I a have some similar views on this subject does not make me anything like him. My kids love me. I raised y disabled son virtually by myself. I have spent almost 65% of my meager 401know on helping my other son who is addicted to heroin ( he is 13 months clean now and lives with me. His mom does not help at all).

        My point is that it borders o ad hominem to associate me with him, a cheater, as I am sure we are nothing alike.

        • Arnold–I also know that you are smart enough that if I say you are like my XH in trait z, I am not saying you are equivalent to him, nor like him in traits a or b or c. I am not alone in thinking that your arguments sometimes tend toward dogma over honest conversation (esp. since I know much of the research literature you selectively cite).

            • Let’s take a vote Arnold. As a researcher, I look at both/multiple sides of an argument, take into account statistical considerations (base rate, effect sizes, whether a study was conducted according to standards). You are a shill for men’s rights, which certainly needs addressing, but NOT ONCE have I ever heard you acknowledge some one else’s point of view. Not once. I have acknowledged your point of view, but have pointed out counterarguments when relevant and when I know the literature in greater depth than you.

              I will not respond to you any more until you can have a reasonable conversation. Portia was right–fanatics neither change their mind, nor change the topic.

              Have a pleasant evening.

              • Tempest, name calling is no way to win an argument. You have deteriorated into using ad hominem.

              • Tempest, perhaps if you would do a little more research with an open mind, you would see some of the other side to your position.

        • I suppose this is a highjack of the original thread, where I was also looking forward to seeing more funny Craigslist ads for the UBT. Sure morphed into a lot of areas. So, here goes.

          I agree with Arnold on some important issues:
          Much more $$ sent on Breast Cancer research vs Prostate Cancer. (ok, but the former can be more deadly than the latter).
          Maybe if men rallied together like the women do to raise money for their type of cancers, they could do as well.
          Another is heart disease. So much more $$ has been spent on men’s research for this and hardly any on women and it’s one of the biggest causes of women’s deaths, just like mens.
          Can we just let those cancel each other out about which gender gets more?

          But, I agree wholeheartedly that there are very few resources for homeless men than their are women. Granted, most homeless men don’t have kids with them. This is why the higher rate of homeless men. However, our small community has done great strides in providing these men safe shelters, regular dental exams, etc – at the cost of many volunteers.

          One sad part of society but which is also growing are the homeless shelters that provide for whole families – including their husbands. We need more of those out there so whole families can stay together.

          I’m sorry this is way off topic but I thought somebody needed to agree with Arnold on something.

        • So you want to equate a woman like Andrea Yates, who had postpartum psychosis so badly that she had stopped talking and had been hospitalized months before, with a man who slaps a 2-year old around so badly that they hemorrhage? And you think the intent is the SAME on both those people’s parts? Really?

          Yes, infants are children, but people who kill out of extraordinary chemical/hormonal imbalances are not held to the same level of intent as people who do so maliciously.

          And yes–take a course in statistics and learn about BASE RATES. If there are 3 Orcs in a room and 103 Hobbits, and each type of being kills 3 people, which type of ‘person’ is the more dangerous killer? Are they equal? If you think so, there is no point having a conversation with you.

          • I was thinking more in terms of Susan Smith and others like her. Yates was, clearly, not responsible. You should know that.

            • I don’t know why this conversation has turned into “which gender has it worse” debate. Cheaters suck. Period. I’m here for support and to find humor in unbearable pain. Quite frankly, Arnold, I feel your pain too but your constant complaining that men have it worse than women is not only pointless to the conversation, but also could be insulting to the 95% of readers of this blog- namely women. Can you just leave it at all cheaters suck, regardless of gender?

    • Thanks. Yeah I spend tons of time with them. I have, roughly, the same childcare expenses but no one is pumping 27th tax free into my household.

      • My ex left me knowing the kids would finally qualify for financial aid to attend college. He signed a note informing University that while he made 124k/year he would not be supporting his daughter (a junior at the time). I now make less than 17k (in California) teaching and over a quarter of my wages go to my two youngest (who were entering college at the time the divorce began). I do not have a lot of money but I do not need much. I find time to do things I enjoy. I just want to spend more time with my family and those I love. My children are my legacy.

        • Love love love this post Drew. You give me hope, my children are my legacy also. Thank you for sparking a flicker of hope that I will survived this and actually have a happy life. <3

        • Same here,Drew. Material possessions mean nothing to me. I would go through this nightmare again if it meant they were here.

  • Reply to original post:
    Make it your mantra that you are finally free of this embarrassing little man.

    Debating tolerance of lifestyles is not the answer to the original post. This is about people using other people (him using you and his children) as a cover for a lifestyle that he is not willing to admit publicly.

    The fact is, his ad’s storyline would be laughably bad porn to most readers. I cringed when I read it…and I thought 50 shades was badly written. I think we will likely see a lot more Cheato’s go the BDSM route for the next while because it’s the flavour of the day. It’s a way for weak people to get a little taste of power.

    Nothing to do with love.

    • This is what my cheater did. Started hanging with BDSM folk. And after awhile, now he is into BDSM. Only problem, he’s a sick lying cheater. It’s sadly a perfect way for him to get an ego boost, a high from controlling and abusing people, and get away with it, because they signed up for it. Pathetic.

  • The issue here isn’t kink or the color/type of your freak flag (and thus I’ll keep my proclivities private). Fly it proudly or hide it in the closet but at least have the balls to OWN it.

    The issue is sleeping next to (and WITH) a stranger. For years.

    OMG THIS!!!!!!!
    If they would only own it………I guarantee that most of us on this board would have not have never been with the ex’s or stbx’s if they were honest about who they really were. I know I wouldn’t. I was married to someone I never really knew. I would never have been able to meet his needs & he would never been able to meet mine.

    On ONE singular occasion after DDay-stbx told me about the porn stuff that he felt like doing those type of things with me or to me was like defiling me…………WTF kind of shit is that? But he thinks it is ok to be married and go behind my back to defile hookers, escorts, massage parlor workers, Craigslist hookups and do those things.

    It’s all just 50 shades of fucked-up. Sigh…….can’t wait to be rid of him for good

    • Current Chump–I’m struggling with that today, too, after hearing about more crappy deception from my X earlier this week. “I was married to someone I never really knew.” And now I/we are left wondering how we managed to spackle over the massive character flaws that they kept hidden.

      I resent *so* much being my X’s face of legitimacy in his professional and public life, all the while he was engaging in immoral behavior, and yes, even downright cruelty to me, our marriage, and our family’s integrity.

      These cheaters should come with a red flag tattooed on their forehead.

      • I resent *so* much being my X’s face of legitimacy in his professional and public life, all the while he was engaging in immoral behavior, and yes, even downright cruelty to me, our marriage, and our family’s integrity.

        Here I am raising my hand to second that statement Tempest-
        This.Is. The.Straight. Truth.

  • I think it is clear that some of our flaws, as chumps, is that we do listen to what others say and we do take their feelings into consideration, and we try to find a common area of agreement — and we do all of these things TOO MUCH. We try so hard to be open to others that we put up with things we should not put up with. We spackle to cover up damage when we should be using a pressure washer to blow away debris.
    It is not that our instincts to listen and help others are wrong, it is that we help others as a priority — when what we need to prioritize is to protect our own interests.

    It seems to me that when someone addresses an issue on a public forum, that person should be considerate enough to evaluate the audience. Although both men and women lie and cheat, it seems that CL”s forum attracts a predominantly female audience. Maybe it is because CL is female. Who knows? But the people who post seem to be predominantly female. They also seem to be predominantly heterosexual females. That does not mean that the male members of the forum have no right to their point of view, or that the gay members of the forum don’t feel the same pain as the hetero’s. It just means that it is natural for the viewpoint of the majority of the forum members will be expressed from a female, heterosexual perspective.

    I personally do not need to listen to any one spit out dubious statistics and information or use this forum as a way to further degrade or demean females. I hear enough of this crap in the workplace, and listen to more than enough of it through “entertainment” outlets. Also, I think this audience is particularly sensitive to the blameshifting, gaslighting, lies that the cheaters have used on us. When a cheater blames me for not complying with his point of view, or fulfilling his needs, and says that is the reason he chose to cheat — I am not buying it. I’m not putting up with it anymore. That stuff happened in my PAST.

    If a male member wants to say that he has felt the pain of betrayal, and he understands what it is like to have entered into a relationship with a partner and find out that he did not know who that partner really was — that he was chumped — I welcome his comments. However, I feel it is self-serving and ridiculous to address this forum and blame ALL of the problems and struggles and the resulting consequences of this experience on the opposite gender.

    For instance:

    My ex had ED problems that were evident early in our relationship. His ED was not caused by my actions. My lack of interest in pornography or being viewed as a sexual part, or sex worker had nothing to do with his ED. It was clearly his health problem, not my fault
    .
    His economic struggles after the demise of our marriage was his problem. I did not cause his problems, his choices caused his problems. I received no special female benefits in our divorce — in fact I had paid some of his bills, and I paid the lawyer to file and get rid of him. I have seen many of the members describe this same phenomena in their posts. The concept that I somehow receive special treatment from the legal system because I am a female is laughable.

    I am not responsible, as a female, for different types of diseases which may attack one gender more than another. I am not responsible for the amount of money the public chooses to donate to one disease over another. If you want more funds donated to your particular disease du jour — work for that organization. Do not tell me that females cause this problem.

    Since more females than males have historically been the primary caregivers for children, and since females historically earn less than males, it seems quite logical that females would frequently be awarded child support to assist with the expenses of raising the children. Courts will also award child support to a male parent who can seek custody and I see proof that this happens every day as a part of my work. Don’t complain about child support — it is necessary. If the female was a stay at home mother — she will need compensation to assist her into a job market, she is entitled to retirement benefits. If a male is a stay at home father — he can seek the same things in family court. Don’t tell me this doesn’t happen — again, I see it every day in my work.

    It is easy to complain about the gender that mistreated you, but cheating is an equal opportunity crime. Don’t blame the gender, blame the lack of character of the cheater. Consider your audience when you get ready to complain — if you want to express misogynistic points of view — there are definitely other forums out there who will welcome your observations. Chump nation doesn’t need to hear blaming rants that are off topic and inconsiderate. Chump nation needs to hear supportive and positive messages, or discuss topics that help an individual develop their strengths and boundaries. Please keep the negative observations and blame game comments off of the forum.

    Thanks.

    • Absolutely agree Portia. Well said !!!

      I was the SAHM and X was the cheater. Yet the courts continually allow him to reduce child support. But yeah….must have been given special treatment because I’m female.

    • Portia, I’ve been a fan of yours since your very first post here. You are intelligent, incisive, compassionate, articulate, and–once again–bang on. Standing ovation and big hugs headed your way. Thank you for this!

    • Beautifully put, perfectly stated. And a reminder to me of my disease to please. You rock, Portia!

  • Portia,
    You said exactly what I was feeling and thinking. Thank you for your well worded, intelligent post. I agree with CL. Standing ovation.

    • I agree. Too much gender bashing and stereotyping is, often, injected into the discussion.
      Abuse, cheating etc. Seems equally prevalent. Violence against either gender should be decried.

  • Portia…I hope I get to meet you someday. Something profound you said on a past post scooted me to the finish line of the land of Meh. I appreciate you.

  • Dearest Chumpified,
    Sadly I think our husbands are part of the same group. Over a number of years over 100 ads placed. And yes I did get a check up. Thank God it was clear.
    Two years after DD and my head is still spinning. I refuse not to survive and thrive.

  • I can’t find my husband’s ads on Craig’sList, but apparently he has one- I’m trying to rack up enough proof.