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Affairs Save Marriages

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orwellIs there any greater example of Orwellian doublespeak than the slogan “affairs save marriages”?

I’d like to say it’s just douchebags like Noel Biderman, founder of Ashley Madison, who spouts such self-serving crap, but pundits like Esther (I Have a Third-Rate Degree in Art Therapy) Perel and Dan Savage say similar. You know, you can preserve the sanctity of marriage, but screw around on the side. It’s that wonderful release from the rigors of monogamy that keeps the union intact!

Left unsaid, of course, is that they are promoting deception to self gratify. Lies make a marriage better! is not a winning slogan. But fuck around to SAVE your marriage? How noble! Now self gratification is self sacrifice!

Orwell would have a field day.

In his essay “Politics and the English Language“, Orwell observes that political language serves to distort and obfuscate reality.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible… Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness… the great enemy of clear language is insincerity. Where there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms…

“Affairs save marriages” is propaganda. Talk about defending the indefensible. No wonder we have to speak about infidelity in euphemisms. We can’t say what it really is — chumping innocents for kibbles. Playing your loved ones for fools. Stealing resources. Risking another’s health. Intimately humiliating the partner you purport to love.

Oh well now, it’s not humiliating if they don’t know about it! That’s why we have to obscure the truth! To PROTECT chumps!

Is theft any less of a theft if it is undiscovered? Doesn’t every criminal try to cover up his crimes? Bernie Madoff was a great Wall Street investor until he was found a fraud.

In yesterday’s post, Alegria shared this interview with Noel Biderman on a Latin American radio station.

“AM is now in 43 countries.”

“AM saves millions of marriages. People have affairs because they don´t want to get divorced. They want to do something in secret, they want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to raise their children and share their home,  they are just tired of the monogamy. And so we see AM as a “MARRIAGE PRESERVATION DEVICE” I have no remorse because I can´t convince anyone to have an affair.  I am not that persuasive. But our service is a way for people around the world is to find passion but still remain married.”

“AM makes people happier and helps them preserve their marriages.”

According to Biderman he is in monogamous marriage. When asked how he would feel if his wife had an affair, he said that he would feel responsible for her affair and that he would not blame a website but himself for not giving her what she needed.

So, hang on here… the problem is “being tired of monogamy.” Yet, if someone cheats, it is the chump’s fault for “not giving them what they needed”?

What they “needed” was an escape from monogamy. Mono meaning ONE. One person. Unless his wife can morph into multiple women, or he can morph into multiple men, the chump is not the problem here. As I like to say about my marriage to a cheater — alas, I could not be a smorgasbord of pussy.

“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity.”

Cheaters, you don’t mean a word of this shit, do you?

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
    • And that’s really the response…for all of us.

      Saying affairs “save” marriages is just another form of blame-shifting. It makes the cheater out to be someone who took a “necessary” step, and then the chump the one who’s unable to take the next step…whatever that is.

      Mistakes are bad outcomes from good intentions. Affairs are bad outcomes from bad intentions. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a lying POS.

      • My XW’s affairs, did , however, save my sanity and life, I feel. Thank God they got me off my ass and out.

        • Same here, Arnold. His affair was the catalyst that finally got my head out of the sand and doing things to protect myself and my kids. It doesn’t excuse his cheating or lying or dismissive treatment of me as a human being. But at least I can hold my head high now knowing I responded to his betrayal as a kickass, independent, self-confident adult, and not the whimpering bag of bones he expected.

          Fuck em.

    • If affairs save marriages, then they are a good thing. Ergo, they should not be hidden and kept secret. They are a good thing. Like puppies and butterflies and ice cream. They should be talked about at dinner and all parties have a say—just like when you choose a new puppy or go out for dessert, right?

      All I have to do to remind myself that affairs are bad for marriages is remembering that his penis, just that morning, was stuck in some possibly diseased, but definitely filthy—orifice. And he came home and asked me for a blow job. The idea of sloppy seconds make my stomach churn, and knowing it got him excited to do that to me is enough to keep me in nightmares for the rest of my life.

      • This is the heart of the matter SphinxMoth. No where in this argument are the stories and experiences of chumps–the unknowing party who is going along working on his or her marriage while their “loving” spouse places them in positions they would never be in had they known what they were up to.

        The problem is that your stories, each and every one just like the rest of ours, are elided, completely ignored, compounding the trauma. To say that affairs “save” marriages (BTW, what is with the Christian language of save here) is window into how bad it is out there for chumps.

        We don’t exist. Our experiences are poo-poo-ed–no one has any concern or attention. It’s all about getting titillated and feeling superior at any expense. Trauma, humiliation, can’t function for a while, STDs, kids in pain and their lives in turmoil—–how can people’s lives be so ignored?

        The normativity of silencing the chump and the harm that affairs create is profoundly harmful for everyone because no one can be protected, it’s all fair game. The claim that affairs save marriage is a cover up for the cheaters–so they can keep the chumps in the dark and chain them to marriage based on false realities devised by the cheater. The big lie, that affairs save marriages, sheds light on how much we are ignored. A human rights abuse that affects body, mind and soul. It may be the fist human rights abuse that knows no religion, color, gender or ethnicity. Although I suspect these factors do affect how it all plays out.

  • My x husband was the king of what I call “circlur conversation”.

    He would babble on and on about it all in pointless word salad nonsense, throwing in big words here and there.

    It was impossible to engage in these conversations with him.

    It would go something like this…..
    The sky is orange and I like it that way because she’s Just A Friend and I can have friends Lisa – she and are are just best friends under a blue sky! Why can’t you believe me?

    I learned to shut that shit out or I would go crazy.

    • Circular – is that how you spell it??
      Damned spell check won’t kick in and I haven’t had a coffee yet this morning

      • My X was the exact same way. And *his* side of the conversation was nearly endless. So, if you wanted to respond to something he said, it was nearly impossible because by the time he was finished – you forgot how you wanted to respond, or, your point became irrelevant.

        • Yes! Our MC sessions were a monologue. When the therapist told him he needed to let me speak he interpreted that as being told to sit down and shut up and refused to go back.

        • Same here. In a recent hearing, the judge actually stopped the proceedings – after my ex had employed the “circular conversation/flat out lying” tactic – to confirm “you were all sworn in, right?” Ex lost in court…again.

        • My X always gave vague responses. He as never all in with anything. Now I know why it was so hard for him to make plans. He was cheating.

      • Could almost never get a word in edgewise with my first wife. She could go on and on all day listening to herself. Just a complete bullshit artist.

        • I was chastised for incessantly interrupting clearly not respecting him enough to hear him out, but how could I wait that long for a point that would never end?

          • Me too! I was constantly chastised for interrupting. You know, just as the “affairs save marriages” talk, it has nothing to do with us.

        • X could go on and on about his wants and needs. He spent ALL his money on himself. If I focused on what he wanted and set up a plan to accomplish HIS goal he never followed through. I thought he was limited

    • I might have welcomed this “circular conversation” or “word salad” or just for ANY resemblance of explanation or excuse for ANY of it. I got shark eye stares and SILENCE…… once his secrets were exposed you could see the anger and contempt in his eyes.

      My Mother used to go for days without speaking to me when I pissed her off….. being ignored drives me MAD, he knew this but it wasn’t “why” he did it probably gave him bonus goosies to push that button though.

      • ” I got shark eye stares and SILENCE…… once his secrets were exposed you could see the anger and contempt in his eyes” OMG THIS!! Oh-but this was following his usual “I’m done talking” when nothing had been discussed or resolved. AND the silent treatment could last for DAYS!!

        Can’t wait to have that out of my hose for good!!

        • Mine did this for THREE months…. while continuing the affair (after DDay) and feeding me bullshit about them being “friends” and expecting me to BELIEVE this load of shit explanation. As long as I “pretended” it wasn’t happening and didn’t mention it…. nothing was amiss in the house. I told our counselor once that if she came by our house she would never be able to tell our lives were in the shitter….. it was like living in the fucking twilight zone.

          The day I drove him out of the house with my “last ditch effort” to save us by attempting to enforce some acknowledgement or accountability on his part…. I turned my phone camera on video and recorded the entire 45 minute shit show. I just HAD to. His “good guy” persona is SO convincing….. just had to have proof of what a complete fucking vicious asshole he could be toward me. At one point he figured it out and said “oh sure…. piss me off and then start taping me when I get angry to make me look like the bad guy.” I responded “I’ve been taping since this started and the truth speaks for itself, can’t hide now.”

          • As long as I “pretended” it wasn’t happening and didn’t mention it…. nothing was amiss in the house. THIS!!!

            That is exactly the kind of marriage that stbx wanted with me & I refused to give.

            I thought about doing the recording him thing but to me, it really doesn’t matter anymore. All that crap he has said & done to me is seared into my brain permanently and at the end of the day, I don’t care what other people think-I KNOW THE TRUTH about who is really is and what he has been/is doing-and that is all that matters.

            • Recording worked for me. I had him on video telling my daughter-in-law that although he was sure I was only entitled to 50% of the assets, he intended to give me 80%! Worked like a charm when we went to mediation! He screwed himself!!!

            • I know what you mean. I know what he did to me. and he knows. and God knows. and it’s all written in my journal.

            • LMAO….. i just remembered… the night before he left I said to him “Narcissistic Personality Disorder…. Google it… that’s your malfunction…” oh my LORD did that piss him off….. “You called me a narkassist??!!” We laugh so damn hard about that…. he can still be one even if he can’t pronounce it 😀 😀

      • I think “the silent treatment” is a major narcissistic control device. My mother (like NCStevie’s) was a master at not talking to people. When i was 12, she once stopped talking to me for 3-4 months for no reason that I could discern other than she was angry at my father but couldn’t punish him. If she gave him the silent treatment, he could just leave. I never saw Jackass do it until he was in the discard stage, but I think it’s a major red flag, a big sign that you should get out of a relationship as fast as possible.

        When he was in devalue stage, Jackass also served up circular word salad but that just puzzled me as a departure from the norm (or so I thought at the time). Now I’d know that was a sign of lying….

  • CL, I think it’s time for you to invite Mr. Biderman for an interview. I wonder how long his euphemistic blather about affairs (even that word makes them sound nice– CHEATING) would hold up under your scrutiny?

  • I don’t think he believes what he says. He’s a salesman. It’s spin for a product. He feels no personal stakes in all of this, is my impression.

  • Oh, and before anyone else points it out (SIGH) George Orwell cheated on his wife. Biographers give the excuse he didn’t consider himself very attractive. Apparently, he was devastated when she died, furiously went looking for a new wife. Proposed to four women. One accepted. He died 3 months later at age 46. So not a very happy ending.

          • Instead she offered sub-par care to poor people while heading to the Mayo Clinic when she herself became ill. Mother Theresa was not quite what she seemed.

            • Yeah. It makes me laugh when people say that Mother Teresa was all that and a bag of chips – she was truly just as bad as anyone else – worse probably.
              Having lots and lots of money in accounts being spent on promoting her religion over actually trying to help the poor and needy with said money – that tells me more about this liar than anything else.
              And the above, too.

            • She had her own special suite at Scripps Clinic La Jolla to hear all the nurses tell it and she was none too sweet either.

            • i am still trying to swallow all the recent crap about Mother Teresa… Still think its a bit of a smear campaign… Who knows… Next thing ya know the Dali Lama has shares in Disney… Sigh.

              • Not smear – its the facts, based off what happened. She was a narcissist.
                If she truly wanted to help the poor, shouldn’t that money in the bank accounts associated with her be used to help the poor, instead of lining the pockets of people spamming their religious views?

          • I was really appealed at the Bill Cosby stuff. So much I had to google and read what these women are saying. Their stories are so similar, I don’t believe they are lying.

            It’s so sad to realize someone you really looked up to or enjoyed as an entertainer, is really a horrible monster

  • “I have no remorse because I can´t convince anyone to have an affair. I am not that persuasive.”

    Why spend money on ads then? What’s your company’s slogan?

    Basically, you can’t convince anyone to have an affair, but you sure as hell spend lots of money trying to convince people to have an affair… what a douchebag.

  • “Unless his wife can morph into multiple women, or he can morph into multiple men, the chump is not the problem here. As I like to say about my marriage to a cheater — alas, I could not be a smorgasbord of pussy.”

    If only this had been available sooner, I could have saved my marriage and not caused my wife to cheat…

    • Peniplus- ha, ha- almost good enough to break No Contact with XH for…’Here you are darling XH (SARCASM), this is what you needed, all along’. But being a reformed Chump I wont. I’ll just imagine him sprouting extra dicks ’til he’s covered with them and can’t escape them or their consequences. Sometimes not being quite Meh is good.

      • There’s a medieval morality play along the lines of the “three wishes” trope. The husband wishes for a thousand penises and gets them. Of course, he’s hideously deformed as a result. The wife wishes for a thousand vaginas, with equally grotesque results. Of course, the third wish has to set things right.

    • bahahahahahahahaha. There’s a song out there somewhere called “detachable penis” or something along those lines. I remember hearing it in high school and not knowing what to think about it lol

  • “AM makes people happier and helps them preserve their marriages.”

    Crack dealers claim they will make you happier too..

    A marriage is a promise, vows are taken. AM helps you to break those vows, to break that promise. I don’t see how that’s helping preserve the marriage. It sound more like help to destroy the marriage.

    • What a wonderful gift to take to a wedding then — a joint membership to AM to “help preserve” the new union. How thoughtful!

      • Now if this theory is correct, then perhaps the Groom should pick up some strange on his wedding night, While the crowd is distracted by the garter toss, find a married woman for the deed, before the married couple is whisked away in the limo. (That way, TWO marriages are saved!)

        In all seriousness, an affair during the first year of marriage is obviously a huge sign that the marriage will not be successful. Why is this any different after five or ten years?

    • I like to think there’s a special place in hell for people who make their living off the pain of their innocent victims, or at the least that they regret their career choice as they lay on their deathbed. But I doubt that they have regrets.

      My STBX and his friend tried to talk me into running a dating website for the sugar daddy type. I’m so glad I put my foot down and said I can’t be a part of something like that.

      Ironic, I guess, that Little Napoleon has found his young thang (in spite of the fact that he has no money). But hey, when you’re a First Class Love Bomber you can go far.

  • “Affairs save marriages.”

    Right.

    And fires save forests.
    Rocks save windows.
    And tornados save mobile homes.

    AM follows the strategy that a big lie might overwhelm common sense when a small lie would be doubted. “It’s so contrary to common sense that no one would dare say such a thing unless it were true and well supported by evidence!” Even at the meta-level, cheaters prey on the Chump’s tendency to project integrity and a sense of decency where none exists.

    • Ahem… Actually, fire saves forests in some places. …”In chaparral communities in Southern California, for example, some plants have leaves coated in flammable oils that encourage an intense fire. This heat causes their fire-activated seeds to germinate (an example of dormancy) and the young plants can then capitalize on the lack of competition in a burnt landscape. Other plants have smoke-activated seeds, or fire-activated buds. The cones of the Lodgepole pine (Pinus contorta) are, conversely, pyriscent: they are sealed with a resin that a fire melts away, releasing the seeds”…

      • LOL we have a SoCal naturalist… yes fire is very important to some eco systems, and perhaps most in the intermontain west. Smile.

      • Yes, well, I think all analogies break down if they’re taken literally. Though I could stretch the analogy even further and say my ex-wife’s cheating was “the good kind of forest fire” because it “burned down” my horrible first marriage. LOL.

        But my larger point is that cheating is dangerous and destructive and not to be encouraged. Like, say, flicking lit cigarettes into the chaparral of the San Gabriel Mountains during Santa Ana season.

        (I grew up in La Canada/Flintridge, CA, where we got to watch this scary-as-hell sh*t every couple of years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwUhxDpt3nk )

        • One last piece of ecological musing: the 1960s Smoky Bear campaign (also followed in South Africa and Australia) ended up leaving billions of kilojoules of energy on the forest floors, resulting in intense wildfires when they got going. The temperatures of these super fires were so hot that they destroyed the vegetation. The key is regular burning. Small and often.

  • The logic of cheaters: the OW told my deadhusband that maybe the purpose of her being in his life was to teach him to love me more. Yea, Im sure their lies and monkey sex taught him scads about how to love me.

    • My Cheating Ex told me OW was “actually your best friend, Muse.” I said, “how’s that?” He said, “She wanted me to tell you about us.” Because he wasn’t planning to disturb his Cake, see? But in the end, the fact is that she WAS my best friend for removing this parasitic lying worm from my life. But no, the affair was not good for my relationship and I wasted sixteen years wanting to marry this loser. So glad that never happened.

    • Noooooooo, Unicornnomore! How did you find out that gem? OW here apparently was a saint, because she used to always tell him he must go back to his family. Wasn’t that so noble and good of her?

      • Patsy…after D day, he (for a time) went through a stage of verbal diarrhea where he told me a lot of things – this being one of them. Trouble was, he maintained to his last breath the insistence that it was a very bad EA (with kissing) but denied sex. After his death I found that the story of the big trip they took together was a huge skein of lies. I deduce that there was something to hide that would require such a pile of lies thus I now assume they were banging each other like bunnies.

  • Adultery and the lies that come with it IMO is a depravity that defies gravity.

    Mr Biderman may think he is providing a service for the communities greater good, But the reality is he is little more than a pimp. Society has become desensitised to the impact of infidelity, which is why chumps often hear the request that we just get over it, move on.

    He is a double minded man if he is making his money off enticing people to cheat on their partners by utilising his services, yet would take full responsibility for not providing his wife’s every need should she cheat on him.

    Since my D’day I have been shocked at this whole subculture of dickheads who act like cheating and the use of sites like this is normal and then want to blame the chumps when we stand our ground and call them on this shit.

  • My cheater was fond of saying she wanted to be “open and honest.” She even wrote this to me after denying her adulterous affair (even though admitting to it in writing months earlier). Cheaters love the double speak.

    “Affairs save marriages” is just one of the many PR jobs or lies they have to tell themselves to “justify” such wickedness. It is hard to sell your product to society if you are actually honest about it. Adultery destroys families, harms spouses, and costs society dearly. It is soul rape and feels like being dismembered (http://www.divorceminister.com/dismembered/). The truth is inconvenient. Best to cover it up with lies.

    Disgusting.

    • Mine, after serial cheating in two long-term marriages said, “But I want a monogamous relationship.” SMH.

      • Tempest, it means “I want a monogamous relationship FROM YOU.” Obviously, being the fantastic being I am, I’m NOT required to provide you the same.

      • In cheaterspeak this means “I want you to think we are in a monogamous relationship, and you will be faithful because how could you want anyone else, I am so fabulous. I however will be having several relationships of various types, and I will keep each one of you in the dark as long as possible, because that way I get to have more cake. When you find out about each other, problems seem to develop. I don’t really know why, I am so fabulous that all of you should be grateful to have even a moment of my time.”

      • Ironic…. I was just thinking… they have NO problem cheating on you and act as if they’ve done “nothing wrong” but God forbid they even SUSPECT you might be shagging someone else….. even the THOUGHT seems to drive them crazy. If they can fuck around with someone who’s private parts they have no knowledge of the whereabouts…. WHY would they CARE??? They don’t seem to mind sharing…. or “used up” parts…… just sayin……

        • This is so true! I remember telling my then cheating husband that I should get a boyfriend or date since he was banging Schmoopie. He stopped dead in his tracks, turned to me and said, ” you can’t do that, you’re married!” WTF? You CANNOT make this bizarre shit up!

          • Yeah, after D-day, my crapweasel said I should sleep with someone once to make me feel better and more even. When I suggested I would sleep with someone else as often as he had slept with grad-slut, he turned pale. (BTW–had no intention of sleeping with anyone else, but I was willing to say almost anything to wound him at that point.)

          • Yessireebob….. right after DDay I suggested (since we weren’t married ANYway) that under our financial circumstances (I had to quit working for him and find a “fucking job” he said) that we should both remain in the home as roommates and I stay out of his personal business and he stay out of mine (you do what you want, I do what I want)….. his response?? “I’m not living here with you while you date OTHER people!!” I said “why the hell not asshole.. you ALREADY are??!!”. And WTF? You CANNOT make this bizarre shit up is EXACTLY right Roberta!! SMDH

            Stupid idiot…. I wouldn’t have anyway… it’s called INTEGRITY… something they know nothing about!

    • DM, Thank you for posting the link to your article.
      Shortly after being shattered by my H’s infidelity/betrayal, my father-in-law died…leaving my mother-in-law a grieving widow. She said, “I feel like my body has been cut in half and that half of me is gone.” I knew that feeling and had been experiencing it for some 6 months by that time. My H…the man I (thought I) married, the man I thought I knew, the man with whom I built a life together with, had 3 children with, who was MY ‘family’, central to my world…had also ‘died’. And, I felt that tearing…that cutting in half…that loss…just the same. It was EXCRUCIATING. The difference in experiences between my mother-in-law and myself: She was the recipient of an overwhelming outpouring of love, care, sympathy, empathy, and support. Family, friends, and neighbors, including myself, rallied around her. Her pain and loss were validated. We were all there for her to listen to when and if she needed to talk 24/7. She was NEVER ‘alone’ in her grief, sadness, and loss. She was flooded with healing and kind words and gestures. People looked out for her for years thereafter. Me? I had none of this. I was cut in half, but suffered the crippling pain and loss in silence…alone. Largely by choice because I had opted to keep our marital issues private because I (foolishly) believed that doing so would foster a speedier reconciliation (yes, VERY chumpy!). What hurt the most was witnessing my H’s ability to feel and express incredibly deep empathy, care, and concern over his mother’s loss…while sweeping my pain, confusion, and loss under the rug. Zero empathy. He simply did not care about me AT ALL and went about HIS life as if all was peachy. (Don’t worry, fellow chumps, my D is on the horizon.) Anyhow, DM, your article really struck a chord with me. Thank you.

    • DM, My x pulled the same garbage – when he initially ran off ( A few days after D-day he moved in with slut) he was like a songbird warbling to anyone who would listen about his 2+ year secret affaire, how he had found true love and how he wanted to marry OW. Now, nearly 2 years later, he tells our daughter last week he is getting married this summer (but doesn’t invite our daughter or tell her the date of the wedding or where the great event is to take place) and claims he never had an affaire and that he hardly knew her when he left. REALLY? A single divorced mother of a young child would kick her parents out of her rental home a few days after you D-day your family because you are just such a great guy she barely knows and why would you be telling everyone in that first month after D-day you want to marry a woman you barely know?????? Talk about rewrite. He was also trying to rewrite his confession to previous affaires – they weren’t really affaires, they were just meeting for lunch. Do they really believe this shit they spew??? He was trying to gaslight our teenage daughter who didn’t fall for it.

  • Cheaters want to hear what they want to hear. They love to hear the sound of the own voices. They are so sparkly after all!! My husband said that he cheated on me but never lied to me. WTF?!? We were arguing after D-Day #2 (that in itself proves he is a liar). He said that I never ASKED him if he cheated. He was so indignant. So I reply “No I never though I had to ask my husband if he ever cheating on me during my marriage!!” Hence he never lied he only cheated. That makes that so much better…wow…what crazy shit cheaters say indeed!! Augh!!!

    • Mine lied so much that when in an argument he would go stone quiet when asked something that should have been easy to answer. The longer it went on the harder it was for him to formulate any form of coherent argument. ( yes the whole talking in circles)
      I asked my cheater on at least three occasions had he been unfaithful. And yes I was specific, and he denied it every time, convincing me that I must be struggling somehow to accuse him that way. I made life focused choices based on those lies, and now that the truth has been told ( or at least what he has been willing to confess to) I am left to pick up the pieces of my shattered life.

      While the cheater, he does the I’m clean and holy ho down for all to see. Claiming to be the victim of an ungodly wife who chose divorce over dedication to her afflicted misfortunate husband.
      And as a result it has freed him to move on with someone new. Because he so just wants to be married, it means the world to him. I’m the one that didn’t want to be married. Barf.

    • My XW claimed she never told me she had graduated college. No, but whenever we talked about her re-entering the job market, I mentioned that her degree would help her. She never corrected me.
      I found out from her brother and father that she had quit college her senior year, sent home fake transcripts of her grades to her folks, and was shacked up with a married guy.

    • Yup, the lying by ommision. My ex is the king of that. I used to be impressed that he was so good with words, and I always struggled with getting it right (we were in professions where we speak to the public at times). Now I am grateful for my lack of wordsmithing– a sign of my honest and open personality.

      • Oh, Lord, yes. Mine accused me of insisting we buy the (ancient, needing huge amounts of up-fixing) house entirely by myself. That he had protested. That he had said it was a bad idea. That because I insisted, he had to go and cheat (apparently for every so many rooms you repaint, you get a free extramarital booty call.Or something). Only problem was, (a) he was post-hoc lying (really!?!), and (b) whut??? , and (c) I did 99.9% of the work anyway, so if anybody got an extramarital freebie, it was me. Except, you know I have this character problem…I have some! I thought I was married.

    • Mine told me he “never tried to hide his affair.” It used to make me mad until I realized he was right. I told him the last time he said that to me (right before we were divorced). “Of course you didn’t try to hide it. You were too much of a coward to tell me you wanted out of the relationship so you hoped I’d find out and end it. I guess the joke was on both of us since I stayed.”

      Oddly enough, he had nothing to say. Shocking!

  • Cheaters think if they don’t divorce their spouse, then they have “saved” the marriage. Never mind that the person being cheated on is running like a gerbil on a treadmill trying to save a relationship that is not what they think it is. I am happier being divorced than I was when I was living with a self-serving liar.

    Cheating saves assholes from working on their marriage. Divorce saves honest people from those assholes.

    • LilyBart, you said it.
      I would rather be divorced than spend one more day married to the man who’s aim in life was to drive me bat shit crazy.
      The lie that if they are married they are ok is the worst lie of all.
      My ex cheated with men and is now with another woman. When his cheating came to light I was asked by those supporting my ex would I take him back knowing what he had done. When I said no they constantly went on about how they had hope for my marriage. And that I should delay making any decisions. When that did not ware me down I was outright accused of not wanting to be married anymore, like I should have been ashamed of myself for acting in such a manner. I don’t think my Ex minister was expecting me to agree with him.
      I don’t agree with the statement that affairs save marriages. I believe that they highlight deficits in character.

    • “Cheating saves assholes from working on their marriage. Divorce saves honest people from those assholes.”

      THIS^^^^^ VERY well put LilyBart!! Absolute truth!!

    • LB, when I saw the heading for CL’s post today, my immediate thought was – his cheating saved ME from my marriage. I just haven’t been able to read through the posts until now. If I had not found out about his cheating, I guarantee I would still be a chump playing the pick me dance for him. So glad that is over!!

  • My favorite “she’s just a friend, she’s helping me learn to deal with you”. hahahaha. And of course it’s a chump’s fault when we find out and won’t play open marriage! Ex said this to his brother “Dat is evil, she won’t let me have a friend”. Followed by “I love two women, I can’t help it”. So I helped him with that little problem…

    • My STBX said the exact same thing. “She helps me deal with you.” Yes, you need help dealing with a faithful, kind, loving, devoted wife and mother. That must be really difficult. He was the abusive self-centered prick in the marriage, yet I didn’t turn to another man to help me deal with him. Projection much?

      • Well, you know what they say–the only thing harder than being a saint is living with one. We chumps are SOOOO difficult to live with, eh? We just drive our cheaters into the arms of others.

        • You’re exactly right Tempest. It must have been all those delicious meals we cooked, laundry we did, or maybe it was all those sleepless nights we stayed up with a newborn or sick kid while they snored away. That must have been so hard to live that way. Thank goodness for things like AM to make their lives bearable.

          • I am pretty convinced my crapweasel thought his rampant cheating was a way he could make marriage tolerable, and thus preserve the family. He was doing me a favor, don’tchaknow.

            Problem is–I had nothing to make marriage to him tolerable.

  • What utter self serving BULLSHIT. It makes me fear for the society my sons will grow up in. Since when did selfish carnal needs outweigh all else? Since when is commitment worth less than a roll in the hay? Since when is a cheap fuck worth screwing over a lifetime partner? Excuses Excuses Excuses.. if you want to have cheap sex.. don’t get MARRIED. It’s that simple. Don’t say “forsaking all others” in front of a preacher and God (and the person you claim to love) and then go back on that when you feel the “itch”. NEWSFLASH.. everyone has attraction to members of the opposite sex who aren’t their spouses.. WE ALL DO. The difference between people with integrity and those without is the acting on it. Acting on it is like what an animal would do. Are we animals? Apparently, some among us are.

  • Out of curiosity I googled Noel Biderman and he looks like a dork.

    He looks like a cheesy lounge singer from the seventies. He’s got a ridiculous patch of hair at the top of his forehead that looks like a pubic hair transplant and then a bald patch and more pubic hair across the back of his skull. The pictures in his white suit, the open collared shirts and the index finger shushing his lips is hilarious.

    I feel pity for pubic hair cause this guy is a dick face.

  • I am starting to wonder why people get married at all? I swear, the more I read, the more I think I will NEVER have a serious relationship again let alone GET MARRIED!! And I don’t want sex with a bunch of different people either! I already did that back in my youth!! Part of that is my biological clock has run down and I don’t have that urge to procreate anymore, so that is helpful.

    • I feel exactly the same. Part of the horror of all this is thinking I have to go back to that single lifestyle of dating, joining groups, clubbing, etc. Been there done that. I’m not going back there. I believed in marriage and wanted it and went all in and I just feel done. I would never have thrown it away lightly. Had no choice and no say in the demise of it. Tough luck for me, too bad, too sad. I hate being alone but I see no alternative. It’s too scary out there.

    • Same here… absolutely NO desire to even date, much less get involved. I have reconnected with an old “sort of” boyfriend from my teenage days…. his friendship & companionship are my saving grace right now and he has offered to let us move in with him (no job yet… so can’t do it alone yet). He is also a chump (20 year marriage to cheater Ex) and has a 3 bedroom house and doesn’t really like living alone…. so he seems to be looking forward to taking on roommates when school is out in 2 months 🙂 lucky me!

      He is probably interested in more…. BUT….. I have made it VERY clear that I may NEVER get to the point of wanting to be romantically involved again. Ever.

      • If someone wants you to move in, they are of course hoping for more. Eventually, even if they say they understand.

        I would not do that to someone if I was sure I was not interested in them romantically. It will eventually be pain for both of you. Now if you plan on paying rent, that is a different story.

      • If by “us” you mean you have kids, please reconsider this. You need to know this guy VERY well. Also, don’t take charity from the guy, especially if he’s interested in you and that’s not reciprocated.

        • Trust me when I say that I will be very careful…. I won’t make any knee jerk decisions and my FIRST thought is always what is best for my son. I will send you an e-mail CL and give you more detail. It’s horribly complicated 🙁

    • Me too. I actually miss sex a lot, despite being postmenopausal. I miss cuddling up with someone at the end of the day and talking too. I can’t imagine opening myself up to this type of pain again though. The very idea of being naked in front of another person ever again just locks me up inside.

      • Me too, but I can’t imagine having it with someone else. We had a lot of sex and that was how we were close with one another. I really don’t see why he needed her. They did drugs, so I guess there is that, but I still don’t get it. He still claims he wasn’t sleeping with her, but it’s just not probable, and I don’t want to be a dupe.

        • Friends. I do drugs with? His loss. And will I find someone? First I eliminate the drug users, alcoholics, and wannabe aging rock stars with 0 talent. If they pass that criteria they will be screened for lying, cheating, and looking a young girl crotches. If they pass on to the third criteria they have to be intelligent, have active interests, friends care for their aging parents, and have teeth. It might be awhile. Ha!

  • Biederman states it would be his fault, but I say it is still “her fault” if she cheats. She has the opportunity to convey to her husband / partner that she’s unhappy with XYZ and they have an opportunity to work on it, see the issues and work together. One person doing something (cheating) and the other person unaware leads to tons of assumptions, miscommunication, distrust, etc. Maybe he hasn’t been in the situation of being cheated on or doesn’t know he’s been in that situation – but I’ll tell you this – if he had been, I think he’d do a 180 on his answer.

    • He is lying… he’s only saying that to make his Cheater market demographic feel good about themselves. I bet if his wife cheated on him he’d be as hurt and angry as the rest of us. But for now, he’ll do anything for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

  • “But our service is a way for people around the world is to find passion but still remain married.”…….. Without telling you spouse or partner AND finding that passion through strange dick/pussy.

    His serial cheating didn’t save my marriage. He even feigned disdain in sites like AM because of the lack of window dressing of what AM really is: a place to find fuckbuddies. Instead he felt MORE righteous in creating accounts at eHarmony and Match.com. They had free shopping weekends where as Adult Friend Finders (AM like) needed a paid subscription. The Horror!

    • Want to add also, cheaterpants stated out loud to me and the therapist that his cheating made him a better father. He’s a GoodGuy, don’t you know. Never stated out loud how cheating made him a better partner to his legal wife.

      Lying and cheating in business doesn’t make you a better business associate, it usually gets your ass fired. That’s what I told him. He likes to relate our marriage to business-speak. So I called him out on fraud and embezzlement as my top two dismissal reasons.

  • I am having a particularily snarky day…. and after setting up a fake profile on AM … Horrified that we even breed with the other half. Forgive me Arnold. Little bit of man bashing here. Every man that responded to my profile was married and a common thread was ” my sex drive is higher than hers” i was sent pictures of their erect penis … And various other manscaped photos. ” SERIOUSLY!!!! .. Unless it sings and dances… Seen one … Seen them all. Some Idiots sent selfies from within their offices and homes… Screen shot a few to get a better view of the family photo on the wall and their real names on their desks. One wearing their police bagde from work… Fucking thick Idiots.
    All I wanted to do is print these fucking Idiots from my area and post them on the bulletin board at Walmart…. ” Husband found… Please contact AM” pictures with their dick in hand… And the family christmas photo on the desk.
    I seriously doubt I will ever get married again… Not sure when the idea of marriage became ‘romantic’ and not out of necessity( not a sociologist here) Who planted the fucking seed? Did I watch too much Disney? Did Marriage get sold to us just like captian crunch and microwaves… When did it all go so fucking wrong?
    I believe in love. I want love. I want to eventually share my existance on the planet with someone who is willing to ride out this crazy adventure… Will it be a marriage? I dont know.

    • SERIOUSLY!!!! .. Unless it sings and dances… Seen one … Seen them all.

      What is with the pictures of their junk?

      Print it and stick it up all over town like a lost Kitty poster.
      That would be funny.

      • you have hear the old saying, Men get in a lot of trouble when they let their little head do the thinking for the big one… So they are showing you their most prized and thoughtful possession. Donchaknow!

          • They think it’s what we want, since they are all about seeing bits and parts up close. They don’t know that a nice bicep, chest or butt shot would go a lot further than their gross dick pic.

            • I was dating this guy for awhile last summer until he thought it would be cute to start sending me dick pictures. He was a runner and had a pretty good body and really thought he was cute. He was poor and didn’t have a pot to piss in so I guess he thought all he had going for him was his dick. I totally ignored them…UNTIL I was at my best friend’s daughter’s funeral and he sent me a video of him jacking off. I was FURIOUS!!! And broke it off with him then and there. I would have blasted him off the face of the earth but wasn’t sure how mad to get at him because seriously, how weird is someone who would fucking do something like this??? He professed deep shame but I’d bet a million bucks he’ll do it to the next woman. It’s so gross and disgusting. I swear evil gypsies have stolen me and taken me to a parallel universe where this shit passes for ‘romance.’ I honestly can’t take it anymore and haven’t dated since.

            • Upon seeing a penis for the first time, Sylvia Plath, in The Bell Jar: “The only thing I could think of was turkey neck and turkey gizzards and I felt very depressed.”

              • HA HA omg. these hypersexualized sickos. no woman cares what your dick LOOKS like, asshole, it is what you DO with it. I’m post menopausal now but grateful that before I was married 1983-1993, and with Cheater (unmarried) 1997-2013, I had an active sex life. My last go round with Cheater, has basically ruined me for sex for ever after but since I’ll be 60 this year, I can cope with it. My happiest friends seem to be the ones with H’s who arent interested in sex anymore either.

    • That is so sick and scary. I really really never realized how many depraved people are out there. Sick, cruel, and callous. Let alone my own H of 23 years.

      • they are. There are very many fucked up ppl out there showing their parts on Craigslist. Let OW have them. Really, at 60, I just wanted someone who wanted to sail into old age gracefully w/me. Cheater really needs his parts to be “worshipped.” So glad I’m not on my knees anymore.

    • The Clip, your post is great. I’m glad I’m not the only one who set up a fake AM account. I really had to see how gross it was to believe it.

      • Clip-I’m glad that I wasn’t the only chump to set up fake profiles on AM (and other sites I found on stbx’s phone history) My girlfriends were convinced that he had to be a member on one of them so we created a fake identity on multiple sites to try and catch him. You aren’t lying about the responses and crotch photos from these mostly married men…..we saw it all, big, small, fat, crooked, freckled, pierced, bare……..
        with the same BS lines “I need more, I need younger, prettier, skinnier…more kink, etc.” BUT I don’t want to leave my wife.

        We were mortified. The majority of these guys were not good looking at all but sure though they were a catch. A small percentage of these guys were really good looking & boy was that scary. But then again, wasn’t Ted Bundy supposed to be handsome? We couldn’t figure out what woman could possibly respond to these ads but on some of the seedier sites, there were women (young & old)posting ads themselves. We couldn’t help but think, it must be working for these people because there are so many ads. At the same time, it is nauseating to see how low these people will go. What a sad reflection on society. It was quite the eye opener for all of us and I will admit makes me fearful to date again after divorce.

        At the end of the day, our cheaters did it because they wanted to and were given the opportunity to easily find it thanks to AM and all the other sites available via internet or iPhone. Even tv ads here in California advertise “dating” sites……..for young, Asian, women from Europe, etc.

          • No Muse-we never found him but I know he’s online somewhere. There is no way all those selfies he’s taking of his body & at the gym working out are going to waste-‘cuz he’s so hot dontcha know! (HA HA)

            We gave up looking because we were so disgusted with what we had already encountered and I have accepted reality…..There is no need to find him online, I know he’s a disordered POS who pays for underage/barely legal & Asian strange on the regular. Plus, I had already caught him at the Asian hooker palace……..Do I really need to know or see anything else? What’s been seen & done cannot be unseen or undone………so, I’m all done!!
            Now that I have seen who he really is (and what he does) I’m moving on. I’ve spent the last year working on me & making escape plans.

            Since I finally found a job, I almost have all the money I need to file & run as I have been socking money away & moving stuff secretly to a storage unit. Of course he thinks all is grand while I am giving the Oscar award winning performance of my life.

            I still get angry about all the wasted years with him but the one good thing is my amazing boy.

    • Hello Clip, my name is Dick Head. I want you to know what I look like, so you can know what kind of a guy I am, so I am enclosing a photo. I am looking for a deep spiritual connection, and someone to spend some meaningful time with. Of course, none of this time can be during the holidays, or on weekends when I am supposed to be with my wife and family Poor undersexed thing that she is, I try not to distress her. You may notice in my picture that I am standing tall, and I am much more handsome than others you may have known. I can stand up straight for maybe a whole minute, and I am sure you will have a great time trying to find ways to keep my interest. If only my wife would understand me and take care of my needs. That carpal tunnel my wife developed, and that advanced gag reflex thing have really put a crimp in our love life. It is all her fault, you know, that I even need to seek someone else to be my joyful soulmate. If she was doing her job, I wouldn’t have to fork over the AM fees, or spend any money on you at all. But she has forced me to seek twu lub elsewhere. How about it Clip? Don’t I sound like a fun guy???

      • Perfect! I am sure I know this guy from somewhere. ” take care of my needs” he said… I did… but it’s a bottomless pit, he needs many many many women to “service” him (his favorite word).

    • It’s surprising that vigilante chumps haven’t joined AM en masse to just start outing these assholes. After all you develop some mad sleuthing skillz when you get chucked down the rabbit hole. Why not put them to use finding out who the creeps are informint their spouses and post their info to sites like cheaterville? It’s just all in good fun just like Biderman said only it’s a sort of revenge fun with a little more of an edge to it.

    • I have plugged X’s phone number into the search engine on our local Craig’s List “personals” site without any success of finding anything, not that it matters…. he might be smarter than I give him credit for… might. I can’t afford to join any of those other sites to snoop around….. honestly…. I think mine has too much EGO to take a chance on anyone he knows finding out he would actually resort to a dating website to troll for available vagina.

      • I caught my ex husbands profile on Meetme.com. Now most guys know you don’t put your REAL personal info on the site, but not my PHD X! I was always getting calls from females asking for him. I thought it was cause he teaches! HELL NO! It was the “ladies” who were seeking him out! Now most of you probably think, so what? Well, we live in an extremely small southern town and our last name is so unique it is the only one in our tiny phone book and the kicker?? It’s in MY name!! Geesh we’ll talk later about getting STD tested at the ONLY hospital in town and all the folks there telling me how wonderful Mr. Cheater is! Oh excuse me, Dr. Cheater!

      • NCStevie-here’s a tip…..sometimes on Craigslist they spell out the numbers….eight one four…. So that you cant just google the phone number Or they use a combination of spelling and numbers….eight 1 four

        • You can also scope out Tinder. It has really launched and is a hook-up app a friend put me on for fun when we were at a party some months ago and there are clearly cheating men on there. They might not have their face, but you might recognise some of the profiles. You need a facebook account to log in to it. I sussed it out with a fake name, fake (new) email address, which was used to make a fake facebook account. Less than 10 minutes to get swiping. Dirty, horrible cheap and easiness. Exactly what cheaters love.

      • The X has a seperate phone number he still uses on craigs list. He pretends he is from an affluent area. Still up to his old games with ho special paying half his bills so he can hookup in hotels.

  • He says he would be to blame if his wife had an affair, but I find that hard to believe. Because his site has many stealth elements, I’m sure if he found out his wife actually used what he so happily promotes, he would be shocked, humiliated and embarrassed. I’ve heard of prostitutes claiming to save marriages, but this comment takes the cake, for sure. What about honesty and commitment to your spouse? What about preserving the family dynamic? I believe (like all of us who visit this site), in the sanctity of marriage, yet more and more, people simply don’t take it seriously causing nothing but hurt and pain to others. Despite these feelings, Catdance62, don’t give up in finding your true love and someone who appreciates you. Hugs…

  • Huh, affairs save marriages. Funny, my ex did not get that memo.
    He cheated, I suspected, he lied in MC, etc. Years later (if not sooner) he cheated again. 3 times in 13 yrs. that I am aware of (though he denies).
    His “story” now:
    To me– he lied because he did not want to hurt my feelings. He regrets how he treated AP #1 as he was in love with her,
    To daughter– he learned you do not sacrifice your happiness for everyone else’s, do not do what everyone wants you to do, or you will drown.

    All post affair mumbo jumbo, no personal responsibility.

    • WOW WOW WOW- narcissistic indeed. Mothers don’t do what their kids need? You don’t do what your boss wants at work? Life is all about you? WOW

  • My XH was a graduate of PPE from Oxford, it is the degree all successful politicians have in the UK and believe me my XH learnt how to argue rings around everyone, if he thinks he is wrong, he argues his point more loudly and more confidently and everyone used to cower. He truly thinks people are much stupider than he is and will believe anything and some of them do.

    It wasn’t rent-boys or male prostitutes he visited but ‘escorts’ – doesn’t that sound more respectable. He visited them to help their self-esteem – how benevolent, how self-sacrificing! Wasn’t that better than an emotional affair with a woman – he would ask me – what a considerate husband.

    His porn and prostitutes were only 5% of his life, 95% of his life was dedicated to the family – what an amazing guy – I should really be grateful.

    In fact he only did this because I was so awful – I should really be looking at all my FOO issues because he was forced into this situation. And I must stay married to him because I promised to love him in sickness and health and now poor him he is sick, he had a moral breakdown for 5 years, similar to a nervous breakdown, so I need to support him.

    And I was unforgiving as I was not willing to pray for his latest rent-boy because the poor guy has so many insecurities.

    Honestly, he could argue black was white and truly believe it. People are now catching onto his lies. But he managed to suck in the marriage counsellor and social worker before things blew up for him.

    • Free, great big hugs to you.

      Wow didn’t realise my X had a twin, the twisted notion that them fucking other men is something we should be grateful for as it was not someone in direct completion to our selves is just YUCK!

      And the whole. We should support them in there time of misfortune. I had our minister tell me my Ex cheated due to his becoming lazy in his Christian walk.
      So he isn’t a cheater he is just lazy.
      The other doozie was, it was with other men so it was only physical not intimate. Was that supposed to make me feel better about the situation?
      The shit that is said to get is to feel guilty for not supporting their craziness, for not getting on our knees and praying it will all go away and never happen again. Fuck it, been there done that, have the self inflicted scars to prove it.

      • Been divorced now 7 months, it was living hell divorcing him, but life is soooo much better on this side.

  • Hmmm, if affairs save marriages, how come the usual result of an affair is DIVORCE? And not just divorce, particularly painful and nasty divorce?

    Why not just skip straight to the divorce part, do it clean and honest?

    Oh, I’m forgetting! Affairs save CAKE. The point isn’t even ‘a bit of strange’, it’s the have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too part that people in affairs want. Yeah, divorce wrecks cake.

    • Because they are neither clean nor honest. It’s like trying to squeeze water out of rocks using only our hands. Not going to happen.

  • Mr. Biderman is playing to the audience that he knows is looking for ANY justification for their “cheating” and he is making their pathetic excuse for them….. “DO it to SAVE your marriage!!” As if these cheating fuckwits need any reinforcement or excuses in addition to the lame ones they come up with on their own. Anyone that goes to ANY site… be it AM or Craig’s List or wherever looking for random hookups with the probability of obtaining diseased dick/vagina is a sick disordered f*ck. THEY are the problem and will always find a way.

    IMO Mr. Biderman doesn’t give a shit about anything but stuffing his pockets and it seems to be working out well for him & the Mrs. What a bunch of Assholes. Honestly… how LAME are you if you have to go advertising/selling your private parts on some website to get laid. I’d be fucking embarassed.

  • Advertising is a business that creates desire and need for a product. Some products may actually be designed to meet needs — think white out and post it notes and steel belted tires — but there are many products on the market that only sell because they are advertised in a way which creates a desire in the consumer. This desire is not necessarily for the product itself, but by using the product, you become one of the “cool people’. AM is a product for those who really are not “cool people”, but who want to be so badly that they will fall for any justification of a product that will make them “cool”. They will become a “Legend in their own minds”. Epic. Sexy. Desirable.

    Just ignore the facts – they are spending marital funds to deceive their spouse, funds that could be used in a myriad of ways for the benefit of the marriage, and they are spending time away from their spouse. They may want to believe that enhancing their ego with sexual conquests makes them sexier for their spouse, but this is clearly not “truth” in advertising.

  • TheClip,

    I would love to see those pictures posted at walmart on the lost board. Hilarious.

    So yesterday in therapy, therapist says something along the lines of “In Europe they have more relaxed standards on extramarital affairs” and “women and men have different needs at different life stages.” He is normally pretty good and I do believe after talking about it that he was trying to get a rise out of me. However, the point became clear when I said thanks for the 50 minutes doc, now I am going to pay the guy downstairs., Ya know, the one I just met this morning, that doesn’t have a contract with me. But hey, he is a lot cuter and younger than you and he gave me good advice, “watch out for the black ice” that actually is helpful.

      • He laughed it off, but got it. I think he was trying to make me understand that not all people think like I do. Don’t project my morality on someone else and expect them to act accordingly. I also told him to stop trying to lower mine. Some things are black and white and they should be called so. Yup, people divorce. Yup, people can change and want a new direction. I get it. What they should not do is blow up the family, blow up the finances and crush us and the kids. Really I think it can all be put down to simple contract law – and, oh ya, those are the marriage vows. If you are going to break that contract do it with the least amount of damage – and pay for it. Be responsible. There I go again with that crappy morality thing.

        Now I just have to figure out if it is the moral thing to do to share the peniplus post with my 16 year old son since anything with penises, and in any way alludes to his father, would be appreciated. My STBX would actually call himself Richard sometimes when dealing with people. His covert way of saying he was acting like a Dick. Really. So we have this code thing of “don’t be a Richard.” No offense to any Richard or Rick out there.

    • Jayne and all our European chumps need to chime in along with Dutch-chump. I’m pretty sure they took a dim view of their cheaters’ antics.

  • wow my ex’s affair didn’t save shit. IT ruined our lives, marriage, security, kids, you name it.

  • So yet again it comes down to this: when a cheater cheats, it’s because the chump wasn’t “giving them what they needed.” Sigh. I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep saying it: if ONLY I had known these were the rules! I could have spared myself a lot of hard work, fidelity, commitment, and unbeknownst to me at the time: risky unprotected sex.

    If there is one fiction about cheaters I’d like to wipe off this earth, it’s that cheating has ANYTHING to do with chumps.

  • Well, you see my STBXH didn’t even cheat!!! NO no no they were/are “just friends”. My imagination was making it worse that it really was. They just talked about work and stuff.

    • Yes, mine too. “She’s just a friend.” It must have been one hell of a friendship to cause him to throw a 23 year marriage in the toilet over.

    • My cheater was so altruistic……he was ‘just friends’ with his ‘former (actually perpetual) GF. Their story was he would spend time with her ‘counselling/supporting’ her regarding her child custody battle. Is he a family law attorney? No. Is he an asshole? Yes.

      • Yeah sure! I heard the “just friends” crap too. While I was standing in the out of the way hotel room they were in at 3:00 am!! I call BS! We are divorced now, thank heavens and he told everyone in deposition he wanted to marry his “friend”! Oh and his “well-heeled friend” just bought him a car one week after our divorce was final! He’s an asshole, but now he is her asshole! Good riddance!

        • Wow, Robert–have you recounted to CN how you ended up in the no tell motel room? I’ve not heard that story but I bet it’s a corker!

    • Yes, mine is quite the helper to his “best friend/ho-worker” too. She of the perpetually dying cat. The damn thing’s been on it’s 8 1/2 life for 3 years but never dies! Good thing he’s there to help. Blah.

  • THis Noel Biderman is totally a used car salesman. I am sure he has top marketing people train him for every possible question asked so that he sounds convincing and entertaining. One of the women who interviewed him is a hard core journalist who has outed corrupt politicians and liers of all sorts. Biderman and her male colleagues made her sound like she was an uptight conservative (possibly frigid) woman when she tried to push Biderman on the scam he is selling.

    The other thing that I highlighted from the interview is how these AM reps are using the language of science and statistics to prove that everyone wants to cheat and that monogamy is not natural. Biderman said that many top research universities are using AM´s information to research what was before not available. But AMs statistics did show my cheaters profile perfectly…university professors are the second cheaters after doctors, and his last OW is from the city in my country where women cheat the most!!

    But what AM forgets to mention is that most cheaters do not look like the top models AM advertises with. In addition to the possibilty of getting an STD from a stranger, someone in a big city like mine would be a complete idiot to risk his/her life by having an AM affair. It is an ideal way to get away with rape or stealing because the victim can´t tell anyone what happened! Cheaters are such stupid losers!

    • Alegria–did you have a university prof cheater, too? Ample supply of young flesh looking up adoring at him. Mine has screwed untold students in his 40 year career (most during his former marriage, but I admit I don’t know everything). Academia also breeds/attracts narcissists. Bad combination.

      • I would NEVER marry someone who worked at a college like my cheater. Waaayyy too much candy. Not only the students but all the colleagues. Where he worked women employees outnumbered the men ten to one. Too much temptation for the narcs.

      • Yes Tempest: my cheater is a university prof who had at least three OWs who I know of…all of them are also profs and married with children….

        Plus, he is really into studying “ethics” and gives his children two hour lectures if they lie about anything (when they lie, it is because they are terrified of his reaction when they tell the truth about something bad, like breaking something or not doing their homework). When I pointed this out, about how he could lecture them about lying and be OK with lying to me for so many years about his affairs..he answered “It´s different” …..The nerve!

          • Some (but certainly not all) people who go into teaching want to be worshipped.That can mean starting up relationships with adoring students but it can also mean the sort of thing depicted in “Dead Poet’s Society.” None of it is healthy.

  • Where are the testimonials that AM works? Let’s see the married couple sing their praises together… oh, wait..

    just another attempt by sociopathic narcissists trying to normalize immoral behavior. I hope the site gets hacked an all the names get out…how is this guy different than Heidi Fleiss?…

  • Ha ha…. I heard that bullshit too….. “you will just NEVER understand…. we are friends…. we didn’t feel loved”. When I caught them texting “I love you’s” to each other my jackass tried telling me that OW’s husband KNEW they were “friends” and that they were just saying that to each other as FRIENDS. Funny…. her hubby was rather surprised when i called to educate him about their “friendship”.

    • Wow! My husband told me that Schmoopies husband knew all about them too! Again, I called BS. I told him that if her husband knew she was screwing him then he would be looking to kick my ex hubs ass. OR maybe her husband knows she is screwing around and wants to dump her dumbass on some idiot! I take the latter and I truly believe this is true.

  • Wait, I think you left off part of the AM selling point, Tracy? The other “they wants,” right?

    They want what they want. They want to be able to rub their bits, all up on another person. They want someone else to tell them how fabulous they are–and THEY. ARE. FABULOUS! They want to wander off at the drop of a hat, and break promises. They want their partners to do the laundry and pick up the dog poo, and do homework with the kids, because all that is boring! They want their partners to bring home the dollars, and not ask about what they spend. Can’t you see? They want fulfillment. And they want it classy as shit. AM gives them all of that!

    • Our culture worships at The Altar of Want” if you WANT something badly enough then its OK no matter who it hurts, the weak place you will put yourself in or what crimes are committed to get it.

      Im sure we all have a thousand examples of this. Recently my coworker who is a single mother with a child with cancer (who lost her house after paying for a boob job) explained her trading in a perfectly good car for a very expensive Cadillac SUV…”I really wanted it” and no amount of logic was going to break through her want.

  • My husband was a “verbal terrorist ” when I confronted him: He was bored. I watched the Housewives of Where ever too much at night(to unwind since I am a corporate atty by day.) Gee, sometimes, I did not cheat.(Aren’t I lucky!) Sometimes, it is ok to be selfish. You are not a good housekeeper.(Did I say that I was a corporate atty by day and raised his daughter and did a grand job of it too). You buy too many shoes. You are unsympathetic to me and my ailments. (No one person could have these many pains and aches).. I could not get any words in at all-like I been faithful for 36 years. I needed the equivalent of Seal Team Six to protect myself from him.

    • During the devaluation I heard that all I did was “sit in the chair” all day. I was working two part time jobs, full time caregiver for my Dad, all the housework and cooking. I would shovel his car out in winter so he could sleep later. Anything to make his life easier. It would be laughable if it didn’t hurt so much.

      • Lina, I’m having trouble finding the right words, but I appreciate your posts because I identify with them so strongly. I think you’ve previously mentioned battling depression, which adds to my affinity to you (if I’m mistaken about that, I apologize).

        I also did a lot to make my ex’s life easier. I thought that she did the same for me and that we had a good balance. I was then told that all I wanted to do was play video games. This after I worked all day while she was taking two classes once a week and otherwise spending her time taking bicycle rides, going to jazzercise, and being disgruntled that the person not working was expected to do most of the housework. Her 15-year old son slept until noon everyday and then spent the rest of his time playing video games; rather than asking him to step-up, she accused me of wanting to be a teenager with him. What bullshit.

        People often comment on how funny I am and how much I laugh. I don’t think they believe me when I say I have to laugh to keep from curling up on the floor in tears.

        • Yes WWDSG, I am battling severe depression. It is horrible. I thought it was all because of his abandonment but I’ve come to realize it started from the years of devaluation which proceeded his leaving. In reality he abandoned me back then. I was just too chumpy to get it. I really really believed we had a good marriage. He did things for me too. I never saw it coming. I thought we were happy for the most part. I guess when he met the OW he just gave up on pretending because he wanted out. I realize he could never have done this to me if he really loved me. I don’t think they are capable of love.

          Mine spent all his spare time at the gym, out with the guys playing fantasy sports and card games. I sat home alone many nights. If I told him I was stressed about caregiving he told me I was “making too much out of it”.

          I believe you WWDSG. This shit is HARD.

          • Lina, you were married to an abuser. It’s not that he didn’t love you; you are correct in saying people like this aren’t capable of the kind of love you feel and you want from a partner. If he was “pretending,” it was because he couldn’t afford for you to see the con artist behind the mask; when they leave, it’s because they have depleted the kibble supply.Their bad behavior has nothing to do with who you are or what you did. Hang in there.

            • Here’s what Tempest posted below–it’s a comment from her therapist that is worth putting in a file on the computer to read every day:

              “Your marriage was doomed from the outset. There is not enough attention and adoration in the world to keep a narcissist happy in a marriage.”

      • “It would be laughable if it didn’t hurt so much.”
        Yes.
        The pain is like waking up under three feet of manure. Every day.

    • Bostonirisher–Yes, I kept the upstairs too messy and put pressure on the marriage so he needed the outlet of a 22-year old student to f*ck in order to keep his sanity (and then another student a few years later, and….).

      As my therapist said, “Your marriage was doomed from the outset. There is not enough attention and adoration in the world to keep a narcissist happy in a marriage.”

  • My ex- wife could have won Olympic Gold for this hundreds of hours of circular arguments with her about her ” non affair” whilst spending numerous nights in hotel bedrooms with boyfriend. When you boil it down to gravy it was always” I never did anything wrong but if I did YOU made me to do i!t”

  • Mine went round and round so much that he’d contradict himself. Or I was just supposed to have “known” what was “wrong”. I was too stunned and devastated at the time to call him on his shit. All I ended up with was some vague shit that things were “wrong”‘ it was all my fault, and “she’s just a friend” before he walked out.

    • Lina, consider that a blessing! I wasted two years on mine. False reconciliations, more lies, more damage to my very soul! I only wish mine would have just left and never returned! I regret not having booted his ass out immediately!

      • I’m trying to see it that way. I wish I’d have booted him when he started becoming abusive. Like the last Valentines Day when I got nothing and he sat there and blithely ate the candy I’d bought him. When I asked why he hadn’t gotten me a Valentine he said it was because he’d gotten me a coffee that morning. I think I was doing the pick me dance without knowing it.

        • You KNOW you deserve better Lina! Believe me, I WAS devastated at the demise of my 40 year marriage. I never thought I would have another good day in my life. But trust me and CN, kick him to the curb and really live! It’s going tobe okay, you’ll see. The sun will shine again and you will smile and laugh. I promise

          • Roberta….thank you for that! The marriage was 48 years for me. Done and Divorced….one year out from Discovery day. I threw his ass out upon his admission. It has been the roughest year of my life, but he didn’t break me. The sun is coming up!

            • Blown Away, at the time I thought I was going to die! I danced & danced and smoked my Hopium pipe! I just couldn’t believe he wouldn’t return! And indeed he did many times. My lawyer asked me if he had boomerang in him! I finally opened my eyes to his abuse when I got my diagnosis of lung cancer and he really didn’t care. He just came back the last time to get me to file joint taxes to save him and Schmoopie money! Yep! He’s a real prick! I was done after that! I told him to leave and never return! Best thing I ever did. My Cancer is gone, I got rid of cheater boy and if anyone would have suggested a year ago that I would be okay and happy again I probably would have slapped them, but the truth is I am very happy! The sun does shine again and it’s warmer and brighter! I just turned 59, but I feel much younger! He was dragging me down!

              • Roberta…I will be 69 in a few weeks and didn’t give a rats ass HOW OLD I WAS!! He cheated on us when we were 30 years old. I didn’t know ANYTHING about narcissists, disordered personalities, sex addiction or addiction period! Or how about this one…Once a cheater, always a cheater… Nope never heard that one either. I forgave and moved on with the marriage and our life. I did tell him though MORE THAN ONCE in the MCing and healing ( apparently he forgot), “If YOU EVER DO THIS TO ME AGAIN, YOU ARE HISTORY.” Fast forward 39 years, a year ago, when it all fell out on the kitchen floor…I said “GET OUT!” He ran and I have not heard from him since. My therapist said yesterday, “Blown Away, just look at you and how far you have come. You are smiling, laughing and planning your New Life. What you all have been through would have taken many down, but he did not break you!” (Truly, I could call Dateline and they would be interested!). “The sun will come up tomorrow, bet your bottom dollar….Tomorrow, tomorrow…it’s only a day away!”
                Love to all my Chumpy Friends….BA

          • Thank you so much. It always amazes me that people I’ve never met are kinder to me than my husband after over twenty years of marriage.

            • Believe me Lina when I tell you I feel the same way about the people here at Chump Nation. They are thoughtful and compassionate even though they have been abused by the very person they felt had their back! I told my ex right before I kicked him out that I could probably swing a dead cat in a bar at closing time and hit someone who would care about me more than he did! It’s painful to admit that, but once you know that truth, it is so much easier to distance yourself from the soul suckers!

          • Lina, it was 41 years of abuse wit my x. I stayed the course as you know. When we have to use the word ‘abuse’ in the same sentence as our husband it means they have taken our love and shit all over it with a smile. Lina, they vomit their insecurities, entitlement, and disordered personalities all over us to maintain control. Often we say to ourselves it’s not that bad. My x would knowingly leave his vehicle in the driveway so I had to hail the groceries a great distance. I repeatedly asked him to leave the space closest to the house open. He enjoyed that!! It’s not just about the cheating, it’s the thoughtless, cruel, acts of disregard that tell you on a daily basis that you are worthless in his world. YOU ARE WORTHY of respect. Whatever obstacles you have to face there are a nation of chumps to advise and support you. You are here, we are here!

        • Lina: I, too, put up with almost 25 years of emotional abuse, and I am no wilting violet. We all wish we could go back and slap our younger selves, and then hit our abusers on the head with a cast iron skillet & walk out the door at the first insult. What matters is that, at some point, we hit our threshold and left. Okay, we sacrificed self-respect for our marriages, and perhaps our children, and it cost us. I get it, I lived it. But we *did* break free and head for healthy waters. And we will never permit that abuse again.

          How do we overcome our past? get to forgiveness of our chumpy selves? Pay it forward–ask for help when you need it, and give it to other chumps when they need it (as you already do). There is a HUGE difference between personal issues that lead you to make other people your victims (cheaters) and those of us who came with personal issues that hurt OURselves because we gave too much to others. The first is morally reprehensible, the second is morally admirable but personally dangerous. I know which side I prefer to be on.

  • Hmm just a thought to all those here tempted to give up on marriages and relationships please remember that this site is testament to all the decent men and women out there to whom decency, honesty, kindness, faithfulness and integrity are as natural to them as lies are to cheaters.
    Perhaps Chump Lady could run another website dedicated to allow decent people to start dating again the perfect antidote to AM!

    • UK Chump, I agree with you but I don’t have the heart to go looking. It’s just too daunting. This has come close to destroying me. I can never go through it again.

      • You’re not healed yet, my dear. Some alone time is very good for your mind and soul–maybe even for your body. Get to know yourself again. Do nice things for you. Find and do what YOU love–but do it for you.
        Do you want to get a kitten? Take up knitting or martial arts? Join an automobile club or volunteer at a soup kitchen? Do you want to go back to school to learn a new language? Start sewing? Cruise thrift shops for totally cool bargains with your best friend? Take more road trips and try out a few of those diners you’ve been reading about? Start a walking routine or join the gym?
        Don’t do these things with the purpose of finding another mate. But you never know what sort of happiness life can bring when you work to do what you love, to do what truly makes you happy. It sounds like you’ve given too much to everyone else, including those who don’t deserve it, and now you’re empty. That’s to be expected. Now it’s your turn.

        • Thank you. I think you’re right. I am empty. It wouldn’t be fair to someone elseto be in a relationship with me at this point even if I were looking.

          I have some plans in mind of things to do for me. That’s all I can do for now.

          • Lina…you can do it. Choose one thing and start with that…baby steps to put you on the path. As my SIL said, nothing will happen “Blown Away” unless you START! And We ALL get it that this is all you can do for now.

              • Lina,
                I identify with your posts because I feel hurt too. I am more hurt than angry right now. But I do remember our last breakup. I took it in stride, focused on my teaching, my son, my dog and learning everything I could about autism. I dare say I really enjoyed my single, busy self.

                I don’t teach anymore, so that’s a bummer. My dog has passed and my kid is almost twenty. I think I need to find a new purpose like before. It’s just not in my heart to hate him, but I really don’t want to give him anymore of my time. He didn’t go out of his way for me, why should I waste anymore time on him?
                X
                Jen

          • LIna, planning your own new Great Big Life is plenty to work on for now. I’m about 19 months out from the big “devalue and discard” effort that preceded DDay, and I’m still wrapped up in just doing what I need to do. Relationships are best when there are two whole, healthy people. So you are smart to concentrate on you for a while.

    • Ex UK Chump — everyone suggests a chump dating site. Here’s the thing — I have no way to screen and it would be catnip to the disordered. (Hey! Pre-selected chumps!) But I do suggest you get on the forums and organize local meet-ups and talk amongst yourselves. You never know what’ll happen. 🙂

      • Hi Chump Lady thank, you I guess you are right however even for a cheater you would need some balls to come on YOUR website and try those tricks !

        BTW can I say from over the pond how helpful all your articles have been I just wished they had been around when I was going through my fog with my ex.I love the way you are equally hard on both male and female cheaters.In the UK there is a culture if a man cheats he is bastard and if a woman cheats it must be because her husband was a bastard!

        Can I ash you how did you gain such wisdom and insight into cheating? it sounds like it started with your New York MC is that right?

        • Thanks UK. I learned by being stupid. Painfully. I was a chump. I’m still a chump at times. But I’m an Amazon chump, I read, I research, I like to draw snarky cartoons. Makes for a blog. Don’t know what to tell you, there’s no magic formula. (Janet, the MC in the story, yes, she was pretty neat, but I didn’t absorb a lot of wisdom at the time. I stayed stuck over a year.)

  • “Affairs save marriages” only is “marriage” is a statement about being legally connected to another person, prohibiting another such legal connection or a statement about co-habitation and being responsible for children. If marriage, however, is in essence about building an intimate relationship, the activities involved in having an affair destroys not only the existing relationship but also any potential for further relationship–as anyone reading this board already knows.

    Sam Harries writes, “Lying is, almost by definition, a refusal to cooperate with others. It condenses a lack of trust and trustworthiness into a single act. It is both a failure of understanding and an unwillingness to be understood. To lie is to recoil from relationship.” So cheaters, then, by definition, and by their own account of lying, keeping secrets and engaging in ongoing deception and gaslighting (“what you see isn’t real, chump”) may be preserving their home address, the change to living in the same house as their children, and their money, but they are “recoil[ing] from relationship,” which is what those pesky vows they took was all about.

    If a cheater wants to “raise their children and share their home” with the chump, then why keep it secret.

    Because they “want to do something in secret, they want to have their cake and eat it too.” That’s not about saving a marriage. That’s all cake. And entitlement.

  • Sorry for typo (“only if marriage” not “is” and subject-verb error “the activities involved…destroy”.

  • Affairs can and DO save marriages. When a faithful chump is busy holding down the fort, and providing for the needs of everybody around them, life can become very boring and lackluster for the other spouse. In this scenario cheating can significantly improve the marriage because:
    1) The bored partner has an opportunity to experience variety.
    2) The marital household stays intact. Family, kids, work, taxes etc. remain undisturbed.
    3) After finding out, the faithful chump will likely put more effort into the marriage to make things right.

    You’re right Mr. Orwell!!! The marriage IS saved… until the faithful chump is too exhausted and beat down to spackle it together any longer, and the antidepressants no longer have much effect, and every fiber of their body is screaming for relief from the lie they are living. A more authentic choice of words would have been “cheating can prolong marriages that are otherwise doomed to fail when one spouse is a childish, irresponsible, entitled, narcissist, and the other is committed, naive, and chumpy enough to stay in denial.” … but that’s pretty wordy. “Cheating saves marriages” is more concise.

  • Yes, well, I think all analogies break down if they’re taken literally. Though I could stretch the analogy and say my ex-wife’s cheating was “the good kind of forest fire” because it “burned down” my horrible first marriage. LOL.

    But my larger point is that cheating is dangerous and destructive and not to be encouraged. Like, say, flicking lit cigarettes into the chaparral of the San Gabriel Mountains during Santa Ana season.

    (I grew up in La Canada/Flintridge, CA, where we got to watch this scary-as-hell sh*t every couple of years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwUhxDpt3nk )

  • My friends( not one prude in the bunch) were horrified. And not because of the dick selfies…I can go on for days about that stupid shit…It was seeing the family pictures…momentos…some even had their kids toys and car seats in the back ground.Others cropped their GF/Wives out of the picture.The sadness that came over all of us seeing those personal items. A teddy bear, christmas picture, baby car seat, the bathroom with her curling iron hanging in the background. We all sat silent looking at familiar family items and realizing it means nothing. It really means nothing. Its profoundly sad. I am profoundly sad for all chumps that spouse frequent/use that site or any other site. A deep sadness…that has me a little rattled today. I ache for my child. I ache for those children who’s lives are about to be shattered and exploited….used like bait….yup great family guy…getting a little on the side…this is me sitting in my living room…my family’s safe place with my dick in my hand smiling a shit eating grin wanting some nameless fuck to suck on my junk. I hope one day some fucker gets busted and his spouse posts all the shit all over the fucking web…

    • TheClip, I do not know and do not want to know if my ex husband has posted pictures of his junk anywhere. However, I found it very interesting that he is selling up everything that isn’t bolted down for his move to Asia. What I found sad when looking at those familiar items is that he still had pictures of me everywhere. I will never know what happened because he hasn’t told me and he never will.

      • “I ache for my child. I ache for those children who’s lives are about to be shattered and exploited….used like bait….yup great family guy…getting a little on the side…this is me sitting in my living room…my family’s safe place with my dick in my hand smiling a shit eating grin wanting some nameless fuck to suck on my junk.”

        Sigh Clip……THIS……………SO MUCH OF THIS

        I’m so sad for my son that I didn’t pick a better father for him. I’m sad for my son because he will know growing up that his dad picked his pecker over his precious family.

        I gave up trying to catch stbx on those sites because it doesn’t matter to me anymore. I already know and have witnessed first hand that he’s a disordered POS who is incapable of any real emotion.

    • I feel your sadness. I feel the same way when I stop and think of all my husband has given up for his cheap, perverted thrills. They’re throwing away everything that matters.

      • ItsAJourney, I only really started to wrap my head around my ex in all his glory when I started understanding that he DID NOT VALUE what I valued. You and I know they’ve thrown away everything that matters, a truly loving, caring partner, a loving family, their constant interactions with their kids, the parent that their children needed, the web of friendships and family built up over the years, the financial security that 2 people working side by side can build, the trust and shared memories…..

        They never did see that these things mattered – that’s why they’ve got that bottomless pit inside, I guess, that feeling of never being satisfied.

        • A few weeks before DDay x started rewriting history. He went back years and started complaining about all the injustices he suffered. This was one if his disordered moments. He has someone else to bore I retired from his shit. Throwing out everything that reminds me of the narc.

          • Donna, your post just made me remember one of ex’s spews. He said that at one time I was rude to a check-out cashier at the grocery store. WTF? I couldn’t remember doing that but clearly it was something ex thought worthy of compiling for his OW justification.

            • Donna, mine told me I was too picky and bitchy when we would eat out! Of course he would take me to every greasy spoon in town and I would inspect my silverware. Somehow eating off of dirty forks was NOT something I was willing to do. Or for that matter, drinking from a coffee cup that had lipstick on it when it was delivered to the table! How terribly picky of me? Of course we are talking about a man whose car resembles a garbage barge on the inside and smells pretty much like one also! He would have to clear all the junk & wrappers out of the passenger seat so I could sit in the damn thing!

    • “They are not long, the weeping and the laughter,
      Love and desire and hate;
      I think they have no portion in us after
      We pass the gate.
      They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
      Out of a misty dream
      Our path emerges for a while, then closes
      Within a dream.”

      –Ernest Dowson

      Our reality is constructed over time, based on our dreams and desires, and destroyed in an instant when we are betrayed. Our dreams were never their dreams. We never really existed for them. We provided everything to a passing stranger, and were left with nothing, not even a thank you. They “never did see that these things mattered,” and they are never satisfied. They are mirages.

      • Portia…..”Our reality is constructed over time, based on our dreams and desires, and destroyed in an instant when we are betrayed. Our dreams were never their dreams. We never really existed for them. We provided everything to a passing stranger, and were left with nothing, not even a thank you. They “never did see that these things mattered,” and they are never satisfied. They are mirages.” THIS.
        I put this in my journal. How very, very true.

      • Thank you Portia, He always seemed like he was never fully in, fully present, fully human. They are mirages.

    • Shades of Anthony Weiner pics! Being able to tell by the background that he was supposed to be watching his new baby! Yuck!

      • Some other dysfunctional cheater idiot who can’t get there mind off of satisfying their base need. Only worried about having someone tell them how wonderful their “romance” is while they spend every moment on cheap sheets in some crappy hotel getting their genitalia rubbed!! Yuck! These people are gross!

  • “Affairs save marriages.”

    Not so much. Affairs kill marriages, then reanimate the dead corpse and keep it walking around as long as possible so no one notices the murder.

    Cheating is basically getting away with murder.

    In my case, this is exactly what my ex’s justification was. We had somewhat mismatched libidos (which I thought we had reached compromise on), but when I ended up having a high risk pregnancy and got told not to have sex at all, he decided that seeking sex outside the marriage was the perfect solution to meeting both our needs and keeping the marriage going ‘strong.’ When really, it had ceased to be a marriage and was just me providing income, housekeeping and childcare, while he provided nothing but lies. Cheating prolonged the apparent life of the dead marriage so he could continue to benefit while he gave nothing in return.

    If only there were some meter one could install in one’s house to measure the health of the marriage. If you check it one day and see the needle stuck at zero, you would know that your marriage was only a zombie now.

  • We had a ‘Friend’ – more Fucktard’s ‘friend’ than mine – who in early days of attempted reconciliation, offered to help OWhore “process the break-up.” In a series of emails that I later found on Fucktard’s computer, OWhore informed ‘Friend’ that god told her that I had obviously “walked away from the covenant” of the marriage, so it was appropriate and good for her, OWhore, to fuck a married man. I’ll give Fucktard this – he didn’t tell her that, she just ‘knew’:

    “I’m not taking him from his wife. She walked away from him many years ago.The path he was supposed to be on, the path along which he was supposed to live and to learn and to grow and to glow, was away from that path that had him bound.” (Trying to pretty it up with “pretty” language – she believes she’s literary genius.)

    The ‘friend,’ believing she was helping all three of us, apparently believed OWhores bullshit about divine approval and wrote back to OWhore : “Might their marriage covenant be RESTORED (having already been broken?) through _____’s infidelity with you? Might ChChChChump have received some profoundly important gifts for her life through this profoundly challenging, hurtful and painful experience? It seems perfectly possible to me that your actions were Sanctified.”

    Yeah. Infidelity can be GOOD for marriages, it provides profoundly important gifts to the chump! And even god approves!

    To this day, ‘friend’ STILL thinks she helped me, that all three of us – Fucktard, OWhore and I – should be holding hands and singing Kumbaya, and doesn’t understand why I have utterly cut her off.

    • Oh man! Heard and read that in my ex hubs sexts to Schmoopie! “God is guiding us and it’s difficult. He’s testing our love!” Ewwww! I told him if I ever heard him invoke God into this adulterous affair again I would knock him out myself! What is it with cheaters and some “divine” destiny crap? It’s absolutely absurd and laughable! There has got to be a warmer place in Hell for these assholes!

      • Ex from the Underworld was a priest in my old church. He baptized two of my kids himself while living in adultery. He used God’s name often to attempt to control and change me.
        I wonder, “Why did I ever think there was hope?”
        He used religion for sick power. I warned some other church leaders & the consensus was for me to “Get in line”.
        I spoke out once and they ordered me to silence. I turned my eyes away in rebellion. The leader said, “You obviously don’t care about anybody but yourself.”
        I said, “I don’t think you know me that well.”
        An agnostic neighbor who helped me out said, “They just lost one of their sheep.”
        I thought, “Damn, they lost the whole Holy Shepherd.”

          • DM, please explain to me how these adulterers can claim that God is guiding them? I know my ex had to know better! He was raised Catholic just like me. We attended church regularly and he used to look down his nose at other men who did this! I just cannot for the life of me understand it!

            • Jesus confronted religious leaders of his day who claimed to be acting in God’s name. He told them that they did not recognize him or the truth because they were of their father, the Devil, who is the father of lies (see John 8:42-47). This is an ancient problem. People abuse God’s name to try and justify wickedness. Plus, I believe cheaters are deeply deceived. They are so bound up and committed to the lie that they can no longer see the truth. It is demonic in my opinion. And as in anything that is truly evil, it goes beyond true understanding or logic. We just need to know the truth and recognize it as evil treating it appropriately…getting distance or confronting it when necessary.

              -DM

              • Thank you DM. I love your site also. You also helped me through this Hellish two years and I would read your words while I was in the hospital recovering from my Cancer operations! You helped me keep the faith! And I never lost my belief that God was with me. I never asked God “why?” I asked him to let me know “what” he wanted from me. I told him in my prayers that I knew he hadn’t brought me this far for nothing! I know I’m blessed!

              • Roberta, what an awesome comment. You are mighty indeed! I feel the same way, that God has a plan for me, and it most definitely does not involve any more cheaters! Hugs to you.

          • The smoking gun of my latehusbands affair was a letter he wrote to her on her birthday that he saved in his computer as “Susan and Jesus” since he loved her so much he surely wanted her saved and they hoped that the Catholic Church would release him from this thing he and I had been in for 20ish years to let him marry his twu wuv.

            In the immediate aftermath of DDay, he said something to me about both OW and I being “Christlike” but it was so nebulous and insane that my brain didnt capture it fully.

            For anyone who missed the story in my other posts, I did find OWs cell number about a year after his death and I texted her. It was mean in a stealthy way that wouldnt seem intentionally mean…Im mean she was Intentionally mean when she screwed my husband, right? I hope she spends every day of the rest of her life thinking she lost her “great love” first to me then to death. boo hoo

      • “I told him if I ever heard him invoke God into this adulterous affair again I would knock him out myself!”

        I like your style, Roberta

    • The Past(wh)ore OW in my case told the Flaming Turd from Satan’s Ass that “God” had brought them together, because nothing says you’re a faithful follower of God’s purpose and will like repeatedly breaking one of his Commandments. Stealing and Adultery are so heinous, there are actually two commandments covering them – thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods; thou shall not commit adultery and thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife (husband). Seriously. Not only aren’t you supposed to steal/cheat, you’re not even supposed to think about it.

      Who are these Jesus cheaters that can find evil everywhere except in themselves?

      • Chump Princess,

        They might be right. A god did bring them together. The problem is. This god will be judged and thrown into a burning fire of sulfur. It’s a called a discernment fail if you can’t tell the difference.

        Ooooh deceived cheaters. They are soooo foolish!

        -DM

  • Both my ex-wife and our MC tried this crap on me. They claimed that our relationship would be stronger for it…if we managed to ever survive.

    I will admit, *I* am stronger after my wife’s affair. But that’s entirely different from *my marriage* being stronger after my wife’s affair.

    Actually, take heart, fellow chumps. We came out *stronger*. Our spouses? They simply exposed their chronic weaknesses.

  • Biderman: Close your website. Go become a Server at the Olive Garden. You might gradually start to develop this thing called a conscience. It actually contributes to your perception of reality, and it makes your life have meaning.
    Imagine that!

    • I have to argue that one because I met my son’s father at Olive Garden where we were both servers in 1994. Good breadsticks, bad man.

  • Mr. Hanecita was offended when I referred to his relationship with his Affair Partner as an Affair. I was baffled, and asked him what we should call it? In his mind if he didn’t call it an affair, it wasn’t? So it was ok? The man that had been logical for years developed sponge brain after jumping into bed with his shiny new girlfriend. The affair didn’t make my husband or our marriage stronger. Just ruined both.

    • I like that…. Sponge brain. It seems they lose all common sense even if they were the most level headed people for years! It’s like they don’t understand how stupid and idiotic they sound! What’s up with that?

  • I just want to know. Are these Cheater websites and services never ending?? Everyday I hear about a new one. There is no way you could monitor a person, even if you wanted. I remember finding an especially scuzzy one in my husband’s search history called Other People’s Wives. Complete with gnarly photos of slaggy women topless, in lingerie, in whorish poses, etc. Are people really proud of this???

  • Hmmm risky , a marriage saving affair ,
    makes me think of that quote…
    “Never play with the feelings of others, because you may win the game but you will surely lose the person for a lifetime ”
    But if you don’t really mind losing that person then go for it !!! Take that risk , play that game .

    • Yes indeed Missmarple. With the help of chumplady, all the folks at chump nation and getting over “sunk costs” I finally decided to let him have what he so desired! I hope it is as wonderful as he had imagined cause as far as I’m concerned both these cheaters sold themselves cheap and didn’t even respect themselves in the end! They got what they deserved and I hope all the lies, sneaking around and blowing up two families was worth it all! My X husbands Schmoopie told everyone, “I win, I always win!” Well, good for her! Now will somebody please tell me what the Hell she won that was worth it? From where I’m sitting I just don’t see anything that was worth ruining your life over!

      • Roberta, I admit this last time he left me I was tempted to do the pick me dance. Deep down I knew it was over. It was the first time I threw him out and didn’t want to play this tiresome game ever again. This was before I found CN. I did call the her and I knew she was sleazy. I told her the truth about his numerous affairs. She didn’t say she won, however called ME names and said I LOST a good guy. I think I lost a cheater and he won a skank. And every day I think of Miss Sunshine’s words “Every day he wakes up to the worst mistake of his life”. They obviously weren’t going for intelligence.

  • Pedophiles profess that their behavior doesn’t harm children. Rapists claim that their victims really wanted it and/or consented. People who beat up other people claim their victims asked for it. Cheaters make their marriages stronger/save them by cheating, because deceit is clearly the foundation and lynchpin of any meaningful relationship. Who doesn’t want a friend/business partner/spouse that is consistently dishonest and whom they can’t trust with a thought or penny?

    People who consistently occupy an amoral, character and integrity deficient space seldom, if ever, claim accountability or responsibility for their grotesque choices and behavior. According to them, honesty, character, integrity and commitment are not desirable traits for which we should look when choosing our friends and partners. They are suspicious, outmoded ideas which make mentally and emotionally shallow people have to question their worth.

    Shit served on fine china still smells and tastes like shit – no matter who prepared it and who feeds it to you. You can eat it and pretend it’s haute cuisine, but your breath still stinks and you smell like shit when you’re done.

  • What I want to know is, when did “having your cake and eating it too” stop being a reference to socially irresponsible, juvenile behavior? I learned this when I was, what?, five???

    Here are some other things I’d like to be able to get away with:
    — not working, and yet still getting paid;
    — eating whatever I want, not exercising, and still losing weight and having low cholesterol;
    — only showing my physical age in whatever way *I* want to (a little grey hair is OK, but I could do without some of the other stuff);
    — driving all over the place and never having to put gas in my car….

    I could go on. The point (obvi) is that Actions have Consequences. And having your cake and eating it too is a long-established Negative Action. — These folks want to have a secret? Go eat a Twinkie in a broom closet. But leave your innocent spouses out of it, for crissakes.

  • Holy crap, my ex actually said to me in marriage counseling that him having an affair and me finding out about it could make our marriage stronger!!! Unfortunately I didn’t have a great marriage counselor like DM to call bullshit on him from a professional level (not that I was planning on staying with that fucktard-I was buying time and getting my affairs in order and letting HIM smoke the hopium pipe). I, however, did call him out and said that obliterating trust and emotionally destroying someone you supposedly love is not my idea of making a marriage stronger. These disordered people will grasp at any straw they can to get us chumps to stay! The RIC is doing a fantastic job giving these sick asshats a platform to try to negotiate from.

    I am so proud of CN for telling their stories! You are all an inspiration and, truly, the reason I was able to get away fairly quickly from the mindfuck and realize what I needed to do and how best to go about it. Also mad props to my fantastic personal counselor who unequivocally let me know my feelings were valid, I didn’t own any part of his choice, and helped me through some very dark days!

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