Today I received the umpteenth article written by an Other Woman imploring us not to “slut shame” her. So, in today’s post, I am going to attempt to the as-yet unperformed feat of untangling infidelity from slut shaming.
First let’s start with a definition. (Thanks Wikipedia!)
In human sexuality, slut-shaming is the act of making, or attempting to make, a person, especially a woman or girl, feel guilty or inferior for certain sexual behaviors, circumstances, or desires that deviate from traditional or orthodox gender expectations, or that which may be considered to be contrary to natural or religious law. Some examples of circumstances where women are “slut-shamed” include violating accepted dress codes by dressing in sexually provocative ways, requesting access to birth control,[1][2][3] having premarital, casual, or promiscuous sex, or being raped or otherwise sexually assaulted (which is known as victim blaming).[4]
Can OW rightfully claim they are being slut shamed? Generally, it’s the OW’s first line of defense that we not judge them. Questioning their behavior is shaming them for the ways in which they choose to express their sexuality. (See Monica Lewinsky, The Poorest of Sausages.)
OW have a point. Using this definition, OW can lay claim to slut shaming:
- OW “deviate from traditional or orthodox gender expectations, or that which may be considered to be contrary to natural or religious law.” Adultery is against major religious laws.
- We don’t “traditionally expect” women to fuck married men. And we probably feel it is against natural laws of universal sisterhood to poach another’s mate.
- OW are in fact promiscuous.
Moreover, we have a whole variety of terms to denounce women who deviate from sexual norms. Whore. Slut. Twat. Skank. Cum Dumpster. Cunt. Add your favorite slurs here.
Men? Not so much. Dick, schmuck — okay, those are gender specific. Asshole, not so much.
Is there any male equivalent of “whore”? Gigolo is just silly and archaic. If it weren’t for the Louis Prima song, no one would’ve ever heard of it.
It’s fair to say women are far more villainized for their sexuality than men are. But I would argue there is a huge leap from being shamed for wearing a tube top (slut!) to blowing your married boss in the parking lot.
One is not the least bit shameful and the other is.
Shame gets a bad rap, because unless you’re a sociopath, shame is a very effective societal tool. It keeps people in place. Don’t do X or it WILL BRING SHAME!
It’s good to question social tools that keep people in place. The powers that be often have nefarious purposes for shame. Don’t be an uppity n****r. Get raped, and we can’t get a good dowry price for you. Etc.
So yes, question shame as a social tool! BUT, don’t throw shame out with the bath water. Fact is, we need people to behave toward each other with decency. We should CARE if we hurt a fellow being. We should feel ashamed.
That’s where the slut shaming OW argument breaks down for me. OW don’t give a shit about who they hurt.
So, you may ask, how could I let someone have sex with me all while knowing that they were probably going to regret it because it might ruin their life if their real lover found out?
Because, well, it wasn’t my problem.
Most of the time I didn’t know the girlfriend, so I didn’t care. Yes, that is extremely insensitive. But, when you’re horny and in the heat of the moment, the last thing you think to do is stop someone from doing something that will harm him or her, but really have not much of an affect on you. I know, I know, I sound like a whore. And I am, by society’s standards. But by my own standards, the standards of the “other woman,” I am anything but.
Should the OW take as much blame as the cheating spouse? No, I don’t think so, but I do think they still SUCK. They’re every bit the cheater. Single ones are destabilizing and desperate, and married ones are as horrible for chumping their own partners.
However, I do think chumps have a tendency to focus too much on the AP over the douchebag that let the OW into the marriage. But I understand it. You love your spouse, have history with that person, children, a mortgage. The OW is just some wingnut you’re engaged in mortal combat with (only no one told you there was a fight going on). If you buy into the “pick me” dance, it’s only natural you’re going to hate the OW.
And she is detestable, even if she isn’t original. She could be anyone at all. Kibbles are kibbles.
What chaps my ass about OWs and slut shaming, is that they want to wear the victim mantle. I’m sorry, you CHOSE this shit. Chumps do not choose. Shit is thrust upon them and that does make them victims.
Oh, and victim blaming? Chumps know all about that. What Did You Do to Make Them Cheat? I think chumps have all experienced another version of slut shaming — sexless shaming. How bad did you suck at sex to Make Them Cheat? What needs weren’t you meeting, emotionally, sexually, or otherwise?
Did you deviate from expectations? Violate the dress code and wear sweatpants instead of bustiers? Did you get pregnant inconveniently and diminish kibble supply? Hey, chumps — it’s all your fault!
And who is first in line with the chump blaming and shaming? OW. I get to bone your husband because you’re no good at it. You weren’t meeting their needs. Your relationship is in trouble and you really should dump that guy! (Whom I am happily boning.) You’re so pathetic.
Other Women? Hey, you’re behaving like sluts. I’m sorry there’s no better term for it, but by “slut” I mean you’re degrading yourself and others with your sexuality. Snap out of the narcissistic dream — you’re hurting innocent people. If you’ve got any decency at all, yes, you should feel ashamed.
Consider yourself slut shamed.
This was outstanding Tracy, made my day.
We don’t “traditionally expect” women to fuck married men my favorite
Thank you for the great post, Chumplady! I, however, am an equal opportunity slut-shamer, and call the very recently X douchebag I had the misfortune of wasting 23 years on EXACTLY what he is to anyone who asks me: he’s a serial predatory WHORE.
Also, I may have read it incorrectly because I’m tired and dealing with fucktard’s bankruptcy now, but it seemed as if, in the article, the OWhores are portrayed as single, and just fuck around with married men. We know that’s a 50/50 proposition where whores are concerned. The XH(whore)’s sidefuck in my unfortunate case was also “married” and had a spouse and small kids she schemed against so she could get her kibbles from and fuck my husband-whore. Oh, no. There is plenty of room and equal cause to call both the immature girls and boys what they really are exactly: FUCKING WHORES, who are really no more mentally or morally disciplined than less-than-average zoo monkeys. (No insults to the intelligent zoo monkeys)
I really cannot wait till it’s Tuesday and I don’t care about the selfishness and destruction these egocentric zoo-monkey whores have done to my family. Oh, but that’ll almost likely never happen; I’m not a disordered, fucking, selfish zoo-monkey whore.
About a month after our divorce (about the same time he had been remarried to OW…), ex husband’s lawyer sent a letter to my lawyer stating (among other things) that I had “insulted” his “wife”…this after and maybe for the only time, I had used her “nickname + body part” in a derogatory manner…I have said many “unladylike angry words” and now embarrasing things to him (not her much) and I think they would like to “chump shame” me using the legal system
I guess I’m a right wing, white male bigot
(or at least some, who don’t even know me would say)
I’ve heard many of the things the OW (or OM) might say, such as it’s not my fault they couldn’t keep their vows.
My favorite is those who claim men cheat more than women. My answer is really? Are men having affairs with other men? Of course not. For every cheating man, there is a woman willing to cheat with him. Now before any mathematicians suggest there are some same-sex affairs, they are probably not the normal mode for an affair, so the premise likely holds for argument sake.
You hear that faulty logic in churches. Men are more unfaithful, less committed to their families than women. Conveniently forgetting that in most affairs, there is a man and a woman. Forgetting that 66-75% of divorces are sought by women, not men and not usually because he’s been unfaithful. More likely because she simply “loves him, but isn’t in love with him anymore.”
I’m not asking anyone to adopt my religious beliefs. However, let me put in a plug for the logic of a system where you have sex only after you marry and only with your spouse. That way, you can be 100% certain that the person with whom you are sleeping is not married to another.
There is no ambiguity. There is no wondering if he or she is really married to another when you hop in the sack. You know that person in your bed is the person with whom you shared vows.
Both parties in an affair know with 100% certainty that the person they are sleeping with isn’t their spouse. This is true if they are married or if they are not married.
Cheating isn’t a gender based trait. It’s a lack of character trait. Character is not imbued upon one gender more than another.
Even the Bible tells us that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn’t say men or women occupy any moral high ground as some might suggest.
So I don’t buy the line that we shouldn’t hold the OW to the same standard because she didn’t take any vows. Every OM and OW know the person they are sleeping with is not their spouse.
Uniballer — I don’t think either gender has the market cornered on douchebaggery. Of course women cheat.
On blaming the OW — Many women, especially those in reconciliation, DO blame the OW more than they blame their cheating spouse. You know, she’s predatory, played on his weakness, etc. Overlooking the fact that their husband LET this person into the marriage. It was HIS boundaries that failed.
My point isn’t that the OW is innocent, it’s that the REAL problem is your cheating husband. That OW will be replaced by another. She isn’t special. She’s kibbles. Dump the cheater.
(Same is true if the husband is focusing on a “predatory” OM.)
I’m not saying APs are blameless. Or they get a pass because they didn’t make a promise to us. But they are strangers — and you don’t have to do anything to dump them and keep them out of your life. (Okay, maybe a restraining order.) You DO have to make that call with a cheating spouse.
I hope you didn’t think I was saying you thought otherwise. I’m simply sharing from what I’ve heard. You know, what did you do to force your (ex) wife to have an affair. Or doing a comparison of Father’s Day sermons to Mother’s Day sermons. The Cliff Notes summary is Mother’s are awesome and never do anything wrong and Father’s need to step it up, stop beating, stop cheating and stop leaving.
Just as chumps are often in denial about their cheating spouse, I think many don’t want to fathom a world where Mom, the Flag and Apple pie are not really all we’ve cracked them up to be.
It’s easier to blame the currently in vogue problem than it is to examine the facts of a case objectively.
PS, thinking back on Hillary/Bill/Monica, I find it ironic that those who claim there is a war on women by the other party (and I’m not a fan other either major party) might be one of the original “slut shamers” with respect to their war on Monica. So when it suited them, they had their own personal salvo on OW with their characterization of Monica.
Now, people of that same political leaning would not tolerate the behavior they found so agreeable in the 1990s.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Oh my God, I’ve been reading comments at HuffPo for years that are word for word this shit. Guess what, buddy, your anti-women stance is not going to fly for long around here. I’ve seen how bad you get and how much you hate women and I for one am calling you out. CL, if I’m out of line tell me but I recognise this troll’s MO and I’m not on with listening to it.
I didn’t see anything hateful in what he said. What I got from his comments was that ALL cheaters are despicable; regardless if they’re male or female. I would think most of us on here agree with that.
My comments are coloured by seeing this stuff, word for word, over on HuffPo and various other sites for years: It’s women who initiate divorce because they just don’t love their husbands anymore, women are the root of all divorce problems, etc etc etc.
I can’t believe it’s been brought here.
My apologies, Nord. I wasn’t aware of that. It’s hard to believe anyone thinks one gender corners the market on adultery or abandoning their families. If uniballer believes all women are evil, not sure why he’d be on this site. It “appears” most of us here are women. Seems like it would be a waste of his time.
Yeah, kind of like that “patriarchy”, “rape culture’. “oppressed women” crapola that appears all over the web. Let’s keep that garbage out of this site.
Not anti woman, anti-giving-women (or men) a pass simply due to genetic chance.
As I clearly said, bad character is represented equally by both genders. Neither has any moral high ground.
I had the eat-pray-love unfaithful ex-wife. She got to be the stay-at-home mom she wanted to be. But apparently it was somehow my fault that her friends cheered her on (you go girl!) to have an affair and our pastor asked what I did to force her to have an affair.
Sorry, I don’t buy into the victim culture based on gender. There are victims out there. Some are women, some are men. But neither are victims because of gender. They are victims because someone was narcissistic enough to think their vows didn’t really mean anything.
Sorry I wasn’t clear the first time.
If you still think I hate all women, the failure to understand is entirely on your end. I’ve clearly said I don’t. I hate double standards and bad logic.
I think we can all agree that cheaters suck (hence my name). Male/ female/Other women/Other men. It doesn’t matter what color they are, what religion they follow, what nationality they were born into, sexual preference; etc. They. All. Suck!!!
Neither gender has cornered the market on sucktitude in this area either. They are equal opportunity suckers.
I take more offense to what the ex did to me because I was married to him; not because he has man junk.
Arnold-I only say this because I care- but there are many decaffeinated brands that are on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing!
Thanks. My teeth are getting brown.
uniballer1965,
I can relate to the Mother’s Day/Father’s Day sermon contrast/double-standard. A generally good church and pastor would show incredible sensitivity on Mother’s Day to women acknowledging much of the pain around that day; but this did not happen so much for Father’s Day.
I was feeling the acute loss of not being a father at the time being recently divorced, and it was real painful to hear the pastor on Mother’s Day talk about how some want-to-be mothers couldn’t be mothers because their husbands weren’t “father material” or something to that effect. The statement was insensitive and ought not to have been spoken. A comparable statement (thank God!) was not said on Father’s Day–e.g. some men might want to be fathers but their wives aren’t mother material.
Just another indication of how far the church has to go before being loving and sensitive to all!
-DM
They all break their “vows” of humanity. My STBX’s OW was divorced before we knew her. She was my ex’s Sunday School teaching partner and was invited into our home by me. She knew my kids and she knew me before my husband. Her ex husband cheated on her and I guess she needed to prove she still had game but sure didn’t care who she hurt doing it. She should be completely ashamed, not only are they sluts, they are inhuman and same goes for my STBX. I trust that they all suck.
And I have no doubt if it wasn’t her it would have been someone else. His level of narcissism had escalated to a scary level in the last two years of our marriage and he had become almost predatory. That’s all on him.
I thought I was just losing my mind… my X’s narcissism escalated over the past 2 years as well. He was a selfish pratt when he was drinking all the time (first 4 years) and then once he quit he was better, more family focused… then he started “working out” again which turned into “I want to be Mr. Fitness” and when he started competing again…. he just became SO selfish and irresponsible. He would spend money on supplements & more gym equipment before paying the rent and electric. He has NEVER had to be physically responsible for ANY of his children on a full time basis, it’s always been me and the same for his ex-wife and those three kids. Funny thing…. OW has three young ones and he is pushing 50…. have fun with that!!
I agree that if it hadn’t been her, it would have been somebody else. My ex is a lazy coward about approaching women, just like so many other things in his life, so it really helped that the OW hit on him. But it was TOTALLY his choice to cheat and walk away from our relationship and his kids’ family.
BUT, the OW not only hit on a man she knew was in a committed relationship with kids, she’s also someone who cheated on her own ex-husband, leading to that divorce and the end of her own kids’ intact family.
So, no morals, AND stupid. Winning combo. They deserve each other!
And a fair number of affair partners actually ADVOCATE that the cheating spouse leave their wife & children. And you don’t want to be called a slut or an asshole? You don’t want to accept any responsibility for breaking up an intact family?
Tough. Whatever the cheater spouse is telling the AP about the poor quality of their marriage, demanding the cheater leave his/her children in a broken family is crappy behavior, and worthy of being shamed.
Tempest, my ex, when caught, told me that the OW was trying to convince him to stay with me and work it out with me. LOL! He was just trying to protect his schmoopie when he told me that. Well, then I found e-mails from her wherein she was sending him apartment listings. I have every single piece of evidence and I am saving it since i know he will eventually lie to our daughter about what really happened. I love having all the evidence….just glorious!
As the saying goes–you know they are lying when their lips are moving. Kudos to you for keeping the evidence. Truth will out.
When my ex-husband first rented his apartment to move out of our home the other woman sent him a text message telling him how she was SO PROUD of him for finally taking that step. So proud of him leaving his wife dividing our compromised financial assets because I stood by him during a 13 mos unpaid suspension from his job and leaving his three children that were 11 and under at home without their father. She consistently sent him messages trying to shame him to leave me about how he did not have the courage to break free from me and was he able to stand up to me and leave when all along he was really just treating me so badly that I was the one that filed for divorce I was the one that moved away out of our shared home so that he would leave us alone. And guess what me being gone didn’t make him completely available to her like she was counting on for the last four years, he is still trying to hang out with me and the children. Asking what he can do to make it right and trying to have some sort of relationship with me. Make it right? How could you possibly? My ex-husband showed an appalling lack of character. But so did the slut that came into my home and had dinner with my children while I was away for my grandfathers funeral, who called me fat and tried to convince me how strong her relationship was with my husband, who taunted me about their time together and who told me she was not a whore bc she was monogamous with my husband before I even knew of the affair, (??? Monogamous?? Lol), who wrote to my husband to remember the momento they stored in her bible together, who acted as his encouragement and cheerleader to turn his back on me and 16 years together and damage the security and safety of the home of his 3 young children and who exposed me to HPV by f-ing my husband with no condom to spite the fact she had to have a hysterectomy to ward off cancer. She is a self absorbed, twice divorced, disgusting gutter pig SLUT. A pathetic ugly dirty human being. And believe me, there is plenty of blame to go around, my x was not let off the hook of culpability, that is another post. I believe that if you are going to behave like a whore and knowingly fuck someone else’s husband you should be prepared to be called a whore by his WIFE. Morality is based on your knowledge of right and wrong, I didn’t know his wife so I didn’t care doesn’t let you off the hook, you are an immoral whore if you knowingly sleep with a married man. Period.
Jesus Jenn, I think we may have the same AP.
These are retched people. Truly vile in every way. No amount of scripture can erase what they are.
Well Jenn and ANC my husband was texting bitching about me being a nag etc. Whore would answer back “you picked her, you married her”. Can’t wait to be with you, come see me! They started the affair in October an she had the fuckin nerve to send a Christmas picture of herself with her only Grand daughter. I like a good friend put it on the fridge for all to see over the holidays. Worse then her what fuckin man humiliates his wife by letting that stay on the fridge for a month? My fuckin self absorbed soon to be ex that is who! She constantly told him he was her lifetime love and the hardest day of her life was when we moved off the street. Not that her husband committed suicide and left her with two small children. But for me I think she is a whore, however here is were it is so difficult, he persued her. She didn’t come looking for him, yes she made it easier opened her legs made him feel special but he was the married one. I will never not shame them. If you have no moral compass and fuck someone else’s husband and cheat lie and be little your wife you are both assholes.
Jen, she is such a disturbed narc to aim her gun at you. She is indeed a self centered malicious whore. To make it so personal makes me think she is dangerously competitive. It also reminds me of how my x would NEVER fight for me. When I confronted them at the bar where he picked her up he sat there like a melting turd while she roared like a crack whore spewing out threats like a crazy woman. I laughed at him. When I thought about it later I wondered if she noticed that he didn’t fight for her or say a word. They love to have the whores do battle as they maintain their sweet chicken boy status. A character who cant stand up not only for his wife and mother of his children but allows this degrading assault. I would record document everything she does and hopefully use it to keep her away from your children. I want to personally kick her ass. Can you get her for harassment? I feel your pain.
the OW who helped ruin my family did not just advocate for then husband of 24 years to leave me and family – but offered to pay him to leave! sickkkkkk.
The puta payed for my ex’s divorce from me and let him use her lawyer from her divorce. now she coauthor’s his emails to me, badmouths me to my kids and tries to call herself thier mother,( until the good people of this small island correct her.)
OWs and OM are all dancing the pick me dance. They just know they are; chumps are kept in the dark about that, at least until DDay.
My ex’s whore, now Owife, was his racquetball partner, who of course cheated on her ex husband with…drumroll please…another married man who bailed when she asked if he would leave his wife to marry her. Nope. So she tanked her first marriage, (fucking over her ex and child) with this affair (who knows how many married others she fucked?) then moved onto my unhappy disordered fucktard sausage. A man more focused on getting laid than on his legacy. Married at the time to Chumpy wife. Long term marriage. Three kids. A dream home in the country. All gone because these two losers have crap life skills/boundaries and no idea what it takes to be in a meaningful healthy relationship.
very similar here Nicole S. But we all did Sunday school together, had known her for 20 years, she had been my daughter’s guide leader, and her father was a minister, so assuming that she had some morals I never suspected anything. But having recovered from divorcing her husband she was on the look out for someone else, and eventually found that my husband was a candidate. Yes, he should have said no but I feel it is a dreadful betrayal of trust from someone who I discovered was seeing my husband, at the same time as doing sunday school with me. I would not be happy if it was someone from work who’d been fed the line that he was separated etc etc, but at least I would not have this sense of betrayal on top of everything else. She must surely know that what she did is wrong, she is a complete slut, and should be thoroughly ashamed of herself. They have been asked not to come to our church, but did shamelessly until asked not to, and how they could hold their heads up I don’t know, how she could tell her mother what she had done I do not know either, and yes, mother knew us from her visits. I have evidence that she was actually ‘predatory’, making advances at my husband, she was not the great pursue and wooed
Sluttish is as sluttish does
I can relate to A LOT of what you said. I thought I was the only one with 50 shades of loser Jesus cheaters! The gall of these people in unreal.
I think my husband’s cheating must have skewed the numbers. He prefers young single women, and to the best of my knowledge had 3 on the line at a time. There were probably more, but I’ll never know. You can see how the numbers would change if this were a typical NPD cheater pattern.
Uniballer, anyone who thinks men cheat more than women these days is , simply, not paying attention. Same thing with domestic violence.
Arnold, I generally love your comments and input, however, as a licensed clinical social worker I can tell you you’re dead wrong about domestic violence. Check yourself sir.
The studies don’t lie, MmmHmm. Sorry. We need more shelters for battered men. We have zero.
Seriously Arnold…you are SAYING there are MORE battered men then women? I work in the field too so would love to know where you get your stats. You could always start a shelter for men and see how many show up. Then you would have solid proof.
Seems like it is about 50/50, syringe. So, why no funding for men’s shelters?
Even if it we 80/20, that would not explain there being zero shelters. Says something about the bias in our culture.
Maybe I’m wrong, Arnold, but it seems like your experience has effected your perception of women. If you were a victim of domestic violence, I have empathy for you. I don’t think that means 50%; even 20% of marriages have women beating their husbands. I think it is rare and I’m sorry if you experienced that. You made another comment about the rape culture, patriarchy, etc. When rape occurs, it is the man who is the perpetrator. Does that mean all men or the majority of men are rapists? No, of course not.
Arnold, I concur with Syringa. State your sources, with links. I have read some of your comments and they come across as back handed mysogyny. I also am in a field that sees the human condition up close and personal—and you have no idea what you’re talking about if you think that women are on par with men in the domestic violence category.
Sources, with links. We’ll wait.
I answered a domestic violence hotline as a side job for two years. That entire time only one man called. He was distraught because he had broken his wife’s arm after discovering she had cheated. He was facing charges and had a PO issued against him. He was hugely remorseful, but my boss pointed out that it was wrong to extend him any sympathy.
Arnold, you are mistaken or trolling. I wrangle statistics for domestic violence and sexual assault victims services nonprofits all day long. The numbers are overwhelmingly against your argument. There *are* shelters for male victims. There are exponentially more female victims than males. Not coincidentally, the vast majority of abusers and perpetrators are male. Facts is facts.
The most current research I’ve seen carefully differentiates ‘partner violence’ or ‘occasional violence’ from ‘abusive relationships’. For partner violence, where somebody hits somebody else, or shoves them, etc, but this is very rare in the relationship and does NOT create a climate of fear and control, the numbers are about even, with women and men equally involved as aggressor and victim.
However, in abusive relationships, where anger, threats and violence are used to create an atmosphere of fear and control, and where one partner consistently ‘walks on eggshells’ to avoid being the victim of aggression, the numbers are STRONGLY weighted towards men as the abuser and women as the victims.
This does not mean there are no female abusers and no male victims (just as it doesn’t mean there aren’t occasionally violent or abusive same-sex relationships). And it doesn’t mean we don’t need shelters for men victims of violence. I know most major cities have them, although usually not many. It also doesn’t mean occasional violence is OK, from anybody to anybody. But we have to be realistic about the situations people are dealing with; men are often larger and stronger than women, unfortunately they are often socialized to use aggression as a legitimate source of power, they are often taught that men can and should control ‘their women’. We need to be clear about the reality. so we can have realistic responses.
I think one issue is that abused women often leave with their children, in fear of their lives, and often have fewer resources to get temporary shelter appropriate for kids. For example, an abused spouse, male or female, without kids, can often move in with a relative or friend for a few weeks. But with children under 6 or kids in a particular school, things get more complicated. Even if a woman works, she earns 70 cents for every dollar a man makes in the same job.
If I can extrapolate from Arnold’s post, it is that if men are in an abusive relationship, and kids are in the home, the man should leave with the kids. And as someone who worked in the welfare system in my past life, I am certain that in major cities, there are hotlines that men with children can call for advice as to where to go.
I grew up with an abusive mother, so I am well aware that women can be violent and dangerous–although my mother actually hid that rage from my father. But as someone who worked in the welfare system as an intake interviewer, I saw many women with battered faces and no resources, nowhere to go and in 7 years, not one man in the same situation. That of course, is anecdotal.
That was the same experience I had when I briefly worked for a non-profit domestic violence program. Men were not being abused, at least not the same way women were.
Women do cheat, manipulate, and love to use passive aggression as a tool, but they don’t generally physically abuse their partners. Their children, yes sometimes, but their partners not so much.
Of course there are exceptions, but it’s not a typical thing. Men can because they can use their superior physical strength for intimidation. We just don’t have that kind of advantage.
MmmHmm–Arnold wants to rely on a poorly-conducted study from the 80s by Straus & Gellas for his arguments (I’m in the field and Murray Straus has very interesting studies, but not necessarily well-controlled ones on either domestic abuse or spanking). Arnold doesn’t budge, so no point arguing.
Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. Hoping that he will stop bringing up his pet peeves on every post, regardless of the topic. Wondering if he understands, or even cares how misogynistic he sounds. You are right — no point arguing, and evidently no point in asking him to please consider the audience here and STOP!
If he really feels men are so mistreated, and there needs to be a shelter for male victims of domestic violence — why not start one. I would much prefer he spend his time, money and energy doing that, rather than make snide comments here.
Yes…I used to enjoy your comments but I’m seeing a real pattern here and now not so much. Instead of any meaningful input anymore, it just appears to be antagonism. Not very attractive.
Just google “female domestic violence”. There are all kinds of studies and articles on this. DC studies, British Home Office studies. It is all right there for you.
CDC
Fuck you Arnold, srsly, just go back to your completely wacked M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way forum and simmer in your own fucked brain with the rest of the mysoginistic morons there. your bullshit does not belong here and I’m past tired of the complete shit so called studies and complete shit so called thoughts you post. Fuck the fuckity fuck off.
Yes tempest, I agree. Notice I stopped replying. I can’t fix ignorance if someone is set in their beliefs no matter how false. As a former victim of DV, I can tell you my abuser accused me of violence towards him. This is not uncommon in abusers either (portraying themselves as a victim when they are actually the aggressor).
I absolutely started to point out that we have quite a few male chumps on here…. which means their WIVES are the cheaters and that here in chump nation we do not believe that the “Mom” is automatically the injured party any more than we are in denial of “a world where Mom, the Flag and Apple pie are not really all we’ve cracked them up to be.” Being a cheating asshole is not gender specific.
I have never been married, was engaged to my son’s father for eight years but never went through with the marriage (TRUST me when I say for financial reasons and tax reasons I am EVER so grateful we did not). With that said… I have been what is considered by many completely “single” for my entire life….. I did NOT chase after or get involved with married men or men who had significant others……. CHEATING is CHEATING!!
UNAVAILABLE IS UNAVAILABLE!!! I don’t CARE if you are single, committed or married you do NOT have ANY integrity if you are shagging around with a man or woman that is either MARRIED or in a committed/living relationship with someone else, ESPECIALLY when there are children involved. If they are THAT unhappy….. they should LEAVE…. end things the right way instead of being a coward!!
I took a video of my little boy this morning, having one of his frequent meltdowns and refusing to go to school. I’ve thought about sending it to the venemous bitch OW so she can see her and X handiwork for herself. The pain they have caused my son outweighs anything I might have felt about the split regarding my own feelings.
I can’t help but HOPE beyond all hopes that they both SUFFER for what they have done and HOW they have done it.
Don’t do that. It would only be used against you.
Uniballer, please don’t start with the ‘it’s women who leave XXX% of the time’. I’ve been reading that crap at HuffPo for years in the comments section and it usually a path to blatant misogyny. Guess what. I filed for divorce. You want to know why? Because my ex was cheating. You want to know why nearly every single other woman I know filed for divorce? Because they got sick of years of some sort of abuse. One was sick of her husband smashing every dish in the house every time he got pissed. Another got sick of being celibate simply because her husband didn’t feel like fucking more than twice a year. Another was sick of financial distress based on his inability to follow a budget.
And take the bible bs and stuff it. All that does is keep women stuck in a bad marriage. Grrr…I’ve read your comments at HuffPo for SO LONG and while I suppose you have every right to post here it really pisses me off to have this kind of faulty logic and bs stats dragged onto this fabulous site.
Let’s dispense with the shrill attacks, Nord. Disagreeing with some of the weird feminist ideas does not equal misogyny.
I see no “weird feminist ideas” coming from Nord, nor are her “attacks” shrill. Having read her comments over time, I find them to be spot on. It is obvious your experiences have colored your view of women, but there is simply no need to take such a condescending approach with those who disagree with your point of view.
shrill? why not throw in strident, hysterical, and a few other misogynist terms. your comments how now achieved the level of completely dismissible.
No of course Arnold, your problem is misandry, amiright? Fuck off
Someone needs attention. Feels familiar.
My first x always accused me of being a feminist when he felt threatened, since I didn’t really find that insulting he stepped it up to “lesbian”.
I also didn’t find that offensive. I have some great lesbian friends including my best friend from high school. The friends he was accusing of being “lesbian” we’re actually straight, as am I. But I don’t find any need to argue about it or prove my heterosexuality.
My second x would have probably been thrilled if I had been a lesbian because then he could ask to watch. I sometimes suspect the first x may have some bisexuality going on. He’s very metrosexual and when he initially took interest in me, my thoughts were, why is this gay man pretending he’s attracted to me? I even brought it up once and he answered mysteriously. Was he being a narc trying to play with my head, or did I see the truth? Because I don’t think there is anything wrong with being gay, but I think if he is, that’s the reason he was always so mad at me. Because he was never really truly interested at all.
Jen,
“My first x always accused me of being a feminist when he felt threatened”
Snap ! Mine did just the same !
In fact he blamed his cheating on my increasing “feminism” – translation – “I don’t want a marriage on equal terms, I want a sexual housekeeper who won’t intellectually challenge me or expect me to pull my weight around the place.”
Well he got what he wanted, as the slut he married is as thick as a brick and spends all day cleaning up after/washing/ironing for 5 people (daughter’s boyfriend lives with them now)
Every so often he takes her away for a cheap Spanish holiday to stop her moaning – hey ho!
I always thought it was funny that he thought I would be insulted by that. It drove him crazy that I didn’t care at all.
Uniballer–“66-75% of divorces are sought by women, not men and not usually because he’s been unfaithful.”
I don’t want to debate the who-cheats-more stats, as both sexes have been hovering around 50%. But where are your stats coming from on the “and not because he’s been unfaithful” bit? If it’s court stats, those are heavily misleading. I filed “no fault” despite my cheater’s infidelity being on public record with the sexual harassment office of a university. Why? He loses his job because I publicize his infidelity, I lose child support money. And I’m not alone in divorcing for infidelity, but refusing to make it part of the public record.
I spent some time working with those in the MRI back in 2003 when I discovered my ex-wife’s affair. If you read any of Dr Willard Harley’s work, he will tell you that it’s the betrayed women he cannot convince to divorce. Not to say that betrayed wives don’t divorce, obviously they do. But buy and large, the women choosing divorce in the biggest numbers are the walk-away-wives. Women who are abused or betrayed are not choosing divorce.
So what we have is a situation where those who almost 100% would say have grounds for divorce don’t choose it, and those who are simply unhappy and don’t wish to honor their vows anymore are choosing it.
Maybe they have an exit affair. Maybe they don’t. But it’s not abusive or unfaithful men driving most wives to divorce. In fact, at least according to Dr Harley, those women are LESS likely to choose divorce relative to the population as a whole.
I think there was a study called “These Boots were made for Walking” that looked into it and determined that it was under 10% of divorce filings had underlying cause such as abuse, addiction or adultery by the respondent in the divorce. They alleged they could predict cause even in a no-fault divorce environment because of other available information in the cases they examined.
It’s been a while since I read it, but the summary is people choose divorce when they think they hold the advantage.
For women, it’s when they are still young and early in the marriage. They expect to keep the kids, be paid by the ex-husband and have a relative high worth in the dating “marketplace.”
For men, their “sweet spot” is after the kids are grown and their careers are near apex and their power and status gives them a higher value in the dating “marketplace.”
So I don’t think it’s because women less moral than men causing them to choose divorce 2x-3x as often as men. I think it’s simply math. Women capitalize on their advantage early in the marriage, ending the marriage before her husband would gain the relative advantage. So if the majority of marriages end at or before 7 years and are ended by women, there are simply fewer longer term marriages to be ended by the husband who thinks he now has an advantage by not paying child support, alimony and being more desirable (in his mind or otherwise.)
I hope that’s clear.
Women, and men, often don’t leave their cheater right away, and that is often what a couple’s counsellor sees. But most reconciliation attempts eventually run out of steam, and infidelity is often part of the decline of a relationship that leads to divorce down the road. The stats I’ve seen is that about 80% of couples try to recover from infidelity, but only about 20% are still married 3 years later.
Interesting that the stats on who initiates divorce or separation also hold true here in Quebec, where physical custody is shared 50-50 by default, where alimony is EXTREMELY rare and always short if a marriage ends early (no alimony at all being the norm when both partners work, 2 years if one partner has been the stay-at-home parent up to time of divorce, the exception being made for a disabled partner unable to work), and alimony is not even an option for common-law couples (by far the majority here). Child support is determined by proportional incomes and time spent with each parent, so is often minimal. And at least here, women initiate 75 to 80% of all separations, whether married or common-law, AT ALL AGES. ‘Gray divorce’ is becoming a huge phenom up here, and it’s often women who’ve had enough, finally.
I also initiated both the divorce from husband #1 (alcoholic), and separation from my more recent partner, the cheater. In both cases, my choice was entirely determined by their previous behaviour.
uniballer, A woman who files for divorce (with children) in many states is at a terrible disadvantage because filing starts the alimony clock. So a woman with kids who are 8, 10 and 12 files for divorce and two years later is raising 2 preteens and a teenager on child support and what she can earn herself. Most women with children dread the possibility of divorce because it puts women and kids in much more tenuous financial circumstances. The only reason many women file first is that they know of an OW or AP and diversion of assets away from the marriage. I’ve been divorced twice, filed twice and took no alimony either time. One was a substance abuser who tried to kill me; my parents had to hire a guard for me while I was in the hospital. The second watched while his boss sexually assaulted me. He was also cheating with his OW and who knows who else. I divorced to protect myself. (Yes, I had a terrible picker.) And when I caught Jackass (to whom I wasn’t marriage), I was done with him, too. So I don’t see where waiting or not waiting conveys any other advantage other than making sure the kids have food, shelter and education.
The primary earner in the marriage is always looking at the possibility of living on 1/2 of his or her salary. One parent is usually looking at much-reduced time with the kids. One or both parties lose access to the family home. Assets are diminished by over 50% for both because many items must be replaced at higher cost when things are divided. Credit takes a hit. So no one with any sense walks in an out of marriage for some “advantage.” There is no advantage in divorce for anyone unless your partner is beating the crap out of you or the kids, hijacking family finances and betraying you in a thousand other ways.
Finally, I think cheaters stay married for kibbles and cake and control, while chumps stay married because they hope the cheater will change, they believe in marriage as an institution and want an “intact family,” and they fear what comes after divorce. That seems plain to me after 14 months of reading here.
Amen LAJ! I Also have a bad “picker” and have been divorced twice. I filed both times. The first time I filed I was 6 months pregnant with our second child and I left because he was physically abusive. there was no financial advantage and I never told anyone he abused me because I was mortified. I didn’t want to be seen as a victim. I got no alimony either divorce. The second time I divorced was due to my husband cheating. I stayed with him ten years before I filed because I didn’t want my third child (our only child together) to grow up without her father like her brother and sister were. Again, I got no alimony.
As for the DV stats- I am not interested in googling female domestic violence thankyouverymuch. I have a masters degree, a professional license, and graduate level training in domestic violence education and intervention. I could, however, give a training on this topic but not to A man that already thinks he knows everything. I would never profess to understand the oppression of middle class white men. So don’t pretend to understand my experience.
My 74-year old neighbor is divorcing for the 3rd time–all 3 were cheaters (but nothing in the decree I just helped her write would indicate that).
The article is by Brinig & Allen (2000) and their data are consistent with the hypothesis that women will only leave a marriage when they are assured custody of the children, NOT because they want to get a leg up on their husbands. Furthermore, they just do not have the data to indicate the psychological WHY of people filing for divorce (male or female)–they report only 6% of VA divorce cases involve cruelty. But almost every person I know who has filed for divorce (male or female) would claim cruelty. Mine certainly was due to emotional cruelty, but on the surface, appeared to be the most amicable divorce possible based on the court record (My X didn’t even employ a lawyer).
It pays to read studies thoroughly, not just cherry-pick the findings,and to realize the limitations of each study; no single study can tackle a problem as big as divorce (and even the authors of that study knew it).
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I filed. He’d left for another country and one of his many OW. He failed to mention to this one that he was still married to me (although she could have found out easily) and they had their wedding planned. He threatened to kidnap and harm our children if I didn’t file immediately, so I did. Did I include that whole crazy story in the filing? Of course not – at the advice of my attorney, and for the protection of my children, we did a simpler “missing spouse” divorce. No paper trail of infidelity.
My sister will be filing soon. Her husband of 25+ years has been cheating with the (also married) secretary from a prior job for years. My sister is a strong, proud woman and her youngest leaves for college in a year. She will not ask for anything but her freedom, and I doubt will mention the infidelity or abuse either – she just wants to be free of him. Talking about infidelity in a divorce filing is discouraged in my state – it simply doesn’t matter as much as just getting out.
I also know of other female friends who have filed. Dr. Laura talks about this phenomenon; and regardless of what you think of her, she’s spot on. She says that women often have issues in their marriage, and they try early on to try to fix them; talk about them, get their husband to acknowlege – and then after a while, they give up. Husband interprets this wonderful new “lack of nagging” as proof that there’s no longer a problem, and thinks all is well. Except that she’s just given up, and is waiting for the appropriate time to leave. In the absence of infidelity or abuse, I believe this is often the pattern. Just my opinion….
Uniballer, bullshit, and Harley is crap, go hang with Arnold on your little forum where you can all agree women are the problem
Bahaha ! Loved this Datdamwuf !
P.S. Uniballer–I completely agree with this statement of yours, “So I don’t buy the line that we shouldn’t hold the OW to the same standard because she didn’t take any vows.?
Our Society say’s when a woman says no, it means “no.”
At any point after she says yes she can change her mind and say “no.”
Powerful position we have placed her in.
I say OW can suck it! She could have said “no.”
The common thread is that both said yes. Both could have said no.
They risk life and limb for their specialness!
Short sighted!
Uniballer–I assure you there is NOTHING in my court record, nor most no-fault divorce records to indicate that infidelity took place, so that is a spurious place to look for reasons for a divorce.
Furthermore, while there may be evolutionary explanations as to why men/women exit marriages, my own extensive reading on the matter suggests most women report leaving because they could not take the bad treatment any more.
In my state, even if you have concrete proof of adultery, if you EVER have any sexual relationship with them afterwards or cohabititate with them you are considered to have “forgiven” them and cannot use in a divorce proceeding. They even have a special name for it, which I’ve forgotten.
In my state, even if you have concrete proof of adultery, you can not use it for grounds for divorce if you have sexual relations or live with your cheater at all after discovery of cheating. It is legally called “condonation” and is considered to be forgiveness of the cheating.
Sound logic when both parties are aware of the cheating, but much of cheating goes on where the “other” has no idea they are. So one gender very much could be more likely to cheat!
Chumps don’t shame or blame OWs for their sexuality, but for their shameless lying, deception, poaching, and participation and abetting of the Cheaters. See, what this OW and others who make this argument don’t seem to get is that 99% of us chumps also have um, sexuality and sexual lives and guess what, many of these Cheaters were still actively having sex with their chump. So the SHAME that you bear is not because, hey you are this wonderfully sexual person but because you are a lying, selfish fuckup. as in this statement:
“Most of the time I didn’t know the girlfriend, so I didn’t care. Yes, that is extremely insensitive. But, when you’re horny and in the heat of the moment, the last thing you think to do is stop someone from doing something that will harm him or her, but really have not much of an affect on you. I know, I know, I sound like a whore. And I am, by society’s standards. But by my own standards, the standards of the “other woman,” I am anything but.”
Yes, you don’t know the person you are hurting so hey, whatever! you just DON’T CARE. And yes, you should be ashamed of yourself for that.
I completely agree. It is not their sexuality we are shaming, it’s their lack of humanity.
Excellent, TheMuse!!
I’m not sex shaming anyone. I am shaming my cheaters unpaid fuckbuddies for their lack of integrity. Although the MOW shared her swinging lifestyle with my cheater. Makes them both whores in my book.
I still call my cheater a whore for the repeated funding of the paid sex workers, without condoms. At least paid sex workers know they are whores.
I think that’s unfair to prostitutes. They don’t want your husband, they just want to be paid.
In my opinion, that’s not as bad as a woman who wants a husband to leave his wife and kids and be her husband. At least prostitutes are not in it for a long term goal/theft/sabotage of a family.
So OW, I will quote my favorite eighties hairband. “Shot through the heart! And your to blame, you give hookers, a bad name!”
You’re to blame. I’m not illiterate, I think that was autocorrect.
Love this!! Thanks again for another great post!
I always put the blame on my ex husband. However, only someone who is a total piece of shit sleeps with a married person. The end.
Tallula, I agree. I put the blame squarely where it belongs – on him, he made the promises and vows to me, to our kids. And like you, I also put the blame on her. They are both to blame for the CHOICE they made.
Agreed.
My younger sister shared an apartment with a woman who got off on sleeping with married men. One of the men had four young children. My sister asked her apartment mate–someone she used to consider a friend–how she could have an affair with a man who was not only married, but had four children. This was an entire family whose lives she was ruining! The AP’s response? “I didn’t make him say yes.”
There it is. She was not responsible because HE said yes. That she actively pursued him meant nothing. HE agreed, so morally, HE’s to blame.
My kid sister didn’t buy this, either. True, the married man should have said NO. But only total pieces of shit sleep with other people’s spouses.
My sister found another place to live as soon as her lease ran out.
Tallula, Spot on! I too blame my ex. As for his whore, “only a total piece of shit” fucks or begins a relationship with someone who is married. (Barring those who’ve mutually agreed to having an open relationship.)
The OW in my case laughed in my face when I told her that my husband and I were still very much sleeping together. She snarkily laughed at me and said “I KNOW that’s a lie.” Really???? She clearly knew he was a liar because she is the one who had to finally tell me about the affair because he wouldn’t. She KNEW he was a liar but because of her belief that she was so superior to me, she believed that he would NEVER lie to her. He would only lie to me because I was the hideous spouse in her eyes. For me, it’s the attitude of superiority.
Amazing… they have NO shame.
My ex also told the OW the same thing….they like to use that. Cheaters are seriously cut from the same cloth.
I didn’t have to have that discussion with OW, on DDay he cried…. promised to stop….. said all the right things….. and we had fabulous sex…. the next morning he promised not to call her (I had planned to do that, and we agreed) and he dialed her friggen number before he ever got off of our street… came home with a lock on his phone and I moved my shit out of our bedroom and never went back until HE left the house.
So…. in my case…. he wasn’t having sex with me and lying to her….. I cut his ass off PRONTO!! Keep your dirty dick to yourself asshole! I don’t share well with others and I made that very clear.
I find it humorous that he gets pissy about me “telling” people that he cheated on me…. I also made it very clear that IF he ever cheated on me I would NEVER keep it a secret. Idiot.
Oh… and for the record I feel I should verify that I KNEW he had not had sex with this woman…. at least not yet or I would have NEVER myself. Not saying that it isn’t possible that it had happened elsewhere with someone else at a previous opportunity (I’m not in denial)…. but I knew that they had not yet had the opportunity to “meet” up. I was snooping on their schmoopie talk messages from the beginning.
See this right here gets my goat… The superiority, smugness, the uppity “I’m too special” but you are just the mediocre ugly wife… The OW in my case – UGLY bitch … I mean zero looks, huge woman ( no offense to any big women out there) with no ability to hold jobs… I was mindfucked for so long into thinking he was IT…but when SHE told me that I’m only so so.. That snapped me out of it… It didn’t go well when I asked her what happens after SHE has 3 kids with him n her boobs hit her knees… Will she accept she is the mediocre ugly wife n fade into the background??? That smugness slipped for just a second but it came right back n she said THAT won’t happen to ME.
Riiiight….Whatevs….
That linked article was vomitrocious!
Fucktard’s (final) OW had some similarities in attitude to dear Jessica, but instead of excusing it with “I lust after him, so I don’t care about you,” she used a combination of “I’m saving him from his awful marriage so he can be the man he was meant to be!” and “god told me it was all right!” and “it’s Twu wuv and MEANT TO BE!”
She admitted to being ashamed, but not because she was fucking my husband: it was MY FAULT, because I read her emails to him, THAT’s what shamed her.
‘Jessica Darling’ (what a stupid-ass pseudonym!), you are the epitome of an utter, utter narc.
At least all commenters on that linked post let her have it. So delusional.
I wonder what the equivalent to the “Damsel In Distress” is for men? Sounds like you dealt with that “excuse” and blame-shift, ChChChChump. Plus, I see the classic exposing the awful actions is the problem and not committing the awful actions. Just disgusting.
i will say as a chumped OW, who was lied to about the status of my ex’s divorce, some of us OW are not interested in hurting wives. i was so angry when his wife contacted me and together we sifted through his lies to figure out he was cheating with 7 women total, and some who knew her. i apologized profusely, cut him off completely and answered every one of her questions, without pause or rationalization. i sent her every text, email, photo and IM he ever sent me. i made sure she knew i had asked him specifically about his divorce since day one, and he based our relationship on the lie he was (always) a few months away from being completely divorced. i demanded paperwork, i asked to see documents, and when he finally produced something, it was some hand written bullshit that no one would find legal. he blocked his wife on fb, and i unblocked her, when he left his cell phone at my place about a month before we broke up – oh wow that was illuminating. i got to see every social media account and all his email accounts (including ones i didn’t know about), and confirm he was an utter douche.
the unfortunate thing is his wife is still with him. that is unfortunate for her, as she deserves a thousand percent better. it’s been a year since he was outed by us both, and booted from my life, and she still updates me on the drama, including new affair partners. the most recent one said she should get tested for various STDs, via text message. how many times does this have to happen before this poor woman runs for the hills and her sanity? he hasn’t got a job and he’s a serial cheater, who reported her fraudulently to children’s services so he could eventually get custody of their son. i mean, this guy told me she was a pimp and a hooker to get my sympathy. WHO DOES THAT??? when i told her, she was devastated. personally, i would have castrated him if he were my husband, and then divorced him. such hateful, hateful lies. and she is a very nice church going woman, who is a good mother. from what i understand, this is a repeat of his first marriage, which also ended with him cheating and lying about the sanity/promiscuity of his first ex wife.
i dodged a bullet, narily. i was part of hurting another woman, which i thought i had protected against. NEVER BELIEVE ANYONE. get their separation documents and divorce documents. do a background check. don’t take anyone’s word for it if they spend a majority of their time rationalizing their behavior by demonizing the women in their lives. HUGE RED FLAG – the only woman he “ok” with was his mother, who was cheated on by his father. i was an idiot for believing him, but i hope i have done some reparations to his wife by giving her all the information she requested without hassle, and by listening to her. i truly hope she gets free of him. i hope he dies in a fire.
IMO, if you weren’t knowingly an OW, you were a chump. That’s sad about the wife. Send her the link to CL here.
i sent her your site and she loved it. but i am not sure if she is taking the advice here to heart. everyone always thinks they can fix their situation. i hope she gets free soon.
Everyone is on their own timetable. Eventually, the wife will end up divorced (I predict). I just hope she kept all the documentation you gave her.
I would like advice about this. I too was an unknowing OW (Chump). I was devastated when I found out that I had been fed a pack of lies from day one and that he was not single. I’m still questioning everything I was led to believe and feel I’m in a surreal existence where nothing is real. I have not informed his wife. no idea what she is about or if she knows, I only have seen that she has a Facebook page. I have struggled with the dilemma of if I should send her the letters and text that he wrote me- give her a heads up or stay out of it and let people learn their own lessons. Any advice?
99% of the advice you will get on this site is to tell the wife, and hand over the evidence (but keep copies, because she may be in denial at first, and then want the evidence later).
Scott Peterson chumped his other woman. She then set a trap, and now he is in jail for life. Good woman.
tell her. transparency is important. and sunlight is the best disinfectant. even if she doesn’t believe you, you will put his cheating on her radar and she will pick up on it, in time.
For under $50 you can access sites like Spokeo or Instantcheckmate.com to find out some (not all) info on a potential dating partner. Sad–I would never have considered using such sites before, but I now consider them necessary if you start dating someone who is a stranger (rather than someone who knows several of your friends). Too many of the cheaters of CL post-ers have been on Match.com, etc. picking up spare fuckbuddies while married. Trust, but verify, eh?
I appreciate the questions from the (unknowingly only) OW – my exH had multiple OW and several were very much aware he was married – they actually knew me and met my daughter. They are the most evil of creatures. One did call me afterwards (only after finding out that he’d picked another OW over her) and admitted things. She said he’d told her we were separated; I was crazy; I only married him for his (non-existant) money…blah, blah. All it would have taken for her to know the truth was a simple public records search. Divorces are handed by the county of residence, and clerk of courts stuff is easy to find. There’s also peoplefinders, FB profiles, and other sources. 15 minutes is all you need. She was/is a PhD, so I have little sympathy for her whole “I didn’t know” bullshit. She chose not to know. Not the same.
The OW he left for did live in another country, but was also highly educated, and could have found out he was lying with one google search. I would say, as single woman who has dated just a bit since being divorced, that I would NEVER consider dating anyone unless I had verified that they were really single. The stakes are just too high, and there are far too many liars and con-artists out there. Protect yourself, and remember – if he’ll do it to her, he’ll do it to you.
Did you not think it odd that you were not invited to his home for evenings, weekends, etc.? Did he tell you that he was living with his wife until the divorce was final? That’s a pretty good indication you’re sleeping with a married man. Most people separate homes while divorcing, especially if their wife is a ‘hooker.’
Facebook, email accounts, etc. were ‘illuminating’ about a month before you broke up? What took you a month to break up with him after you discovered he was an ‘utter douche?’
he had numerous reasons for not introducing me to his son, mostly about waiting for his divorce to be final. this was someone who painted his wife as a dangerous person, who was mentally ill and cheating on him, and it was best not get involved. i’m divorced, from a cheater, and i thought he was sincere. how many of you here were chumped by the same act? don’t look at me as if i’m some rare idiot – it was a short while i was chumped, not years, and when i found out, i took proper action. take your hostility elsewhere.
Multi stars, I believe you and you can learn a lot from CL on fixing your picker, check ot Captain Awkward on setting boundaries and recognizing red flags too. Sorry you were chumped and also have the guilt over having hurt a sista jedi hugs
I know at least one “other woman” who was lied to. Told that her affair partner was in the middle of a divorce, and it was what the wife wanted. I think she was completely stupid to believe that, but she heard what she wanted to hear. This particular woman throws herself at a lot of men, hoping one will bite. It’s annoying and sad at the same time. She is also weirdly competitive at times. Still I feel sorry for her.
I have seen two of the women my ex slept with on facebook. They are both fairly homely, one is overweight. One introduced anal and choking to my ex. I didn’t want to do either of those things, so I felt like a prude, or not able to compete.
We had sex four nights a week, sometimes doing it again in the morning. On a day off work we had sex five times in one day. I really don’t understand why he needed anything else. My only guesses are I wasn’t kinky enough, drugs, and he found it flattering.
I guess the moral of the story is: sex doesn’t equal love. Also, if you are a person with higher expectations, you may be let go for someone who does not need as much. All of this hurts, but I am working everyday to let it go.
I don’t know Jen–perhaps you should have tried the choking…. just sayin’ ; )
as in choking for a v.e.r.y. l.o.n.g. time (just to make myself clear)
Erm, any guy who wanted either anal or choking from me would be out the door fairly pronto. Even if he wasn’t cheating on me
I certainly don’t see why anyone should feel unable to “compete” if they don’t go there. I would just call it having healthy boundaries. If an OW offers that and he wants it, let the silly twats rip each other a new one.
It was a poorly worded joke to choke him punitively (not sexually).
I did think it was funny.
I am just imbetween realizing this wasn’t my fault and being sad somebody I spent so many (some of them very happy) years with is gone for good. The choking thing kind of showed up in the last year or so. He would put his hands near my neck, but he never squeezed and I always pushed them away and told him to knock it off. After awhile it became clear to me he wasn’t trying to kill me, it was a sexual thing. We’d been having sex for ten years before this showed up, so it was clearly introduced by an OW.
I am not playing “pick me” in the bedroom, if that’s what he wants, fine. She has a horse face, so maybe offering these things and drugs are her hook.
I hope that he realizes he can choke her all he wants, she’s still going to look like a horse.
It’s not the sex. It’s the kibbles, if he’s a narcissist. The power. The adoration. The rush of “new love” and pursuit and competition.
Jen, I wanted so much to make my relationship work. It was always about what he couldn’t do, be faithful.
Thank you, I am really glad I didn’t go for the choking. At least I can hold my head high and say I didn’t do anything I didn’t want to do. My son is the most important thing in my life, and I can’t imagine accidentally dying for this jerk and leaving son to fend for himself.
So enjoy the choking OW. Do people really enjoy that? I mean don’t we all kind of instinctively hold our breath at the point of orgasm? Isn’t that why the French call it “the little death”?
If dying and having your ass bleed is fun for you, you win, have him.
For any one of us chumps who believe it’s about us – I adored my exH. Sex at least 3X/week (he couldn’t handle more than that…lol); took care of myself; kept a beautiful home; cooked only his favorites every meal; helped with his business (to the point his career has tanked since leaving); ran him warm baths, made sure he didn’t have to lift a finger at home – he was truly the King of the Castle.
And he f’ed every woman who looked his way. Almost all married moms of kids he worked with – so he was very clear that they were married too. I think he got off on the idea he could “have” another guy’s wife. Made him feel powerful. He once told me it wasn’t about the sex, and I almost believe that – in over 10 years of being married, I never saw him check out another woman – any woman. Totally disinterested, or gay maybe? Who knows, but for these losers, it’s not what WE don’t have, it’s about the empty, black, sucking hole in their soul. It really IS – in every way – all about them.
Jen—we were having sex 4x a week during my cheater’s main affair. It’s not about the sex per se, it’s the thrill of the chase, the deception, the excitement of having an edge on your partner, coupled with opportunity presenting itself.
That was the part that confused me. I think you are right, he was trying to have an edge on me. I was enjoying our partnership and he was trying to chump me.
The thrill of tricking someone. I tried to replicate it/get even by drinking his vodka when he was in the shower. But it was cheap vodka and he really didn’t care. I could never go through with cheating on him or anyone. I don’t enjoy hurting people. I don’t understand it.
We’ve had OW here who’ve been chumped by the same cheaters who were cheating on their wives. The old “we’re nearly divorced” lie works well, especially if you’re in one of those states that makes you wait in limbo land for a couple of years before finalizing the divorce. I post on a geeky forum and one of the women there is dating a man who is in the process of a divorce. I want to reach out through the electrons, shake her, and say, “You already divorced one asshole! How certain are you that this man filed? Are you sure you’re not setting yourself up for Asshole #2?”
I think that if I were to get involved with a man who’s in the middle of a divorce, I’d be checking out the online court records. My divorce case is visible to anyone who searches my state’s civil court cases. I’m sure that other states must have something similar, but to be fair, I’m also sure that very few people–unless they’ve been Chumped–would bother to check to see if there really is a divorce in the works.
I dated while separated in one of those states, and I can totally see believing someone when they said they are separated. (In Virginia, you cannot even say you filed until a full year and ONE DAY after physical separation.)
Multostars,
I applaud your courage. I was reading this post this morning and thought, “Oh, boy. Do I go there?” I, too, was briefly an OW (see below), and I feel like I’m soaked in gasoline and walking into a Bic Lighter convention by confessing that here on this forum, of all places. And before anyone suggests my current predicament is Karma for that affair, rest assured I’ve already thought of that a thousand times over.
Unlike the OW in CL’s article above, being “horny” had nothing to do with it. He & I had worked together at a wildlife park (volunteer work once a month or so) for several years. Sometimes our schedules crossed, sometimes they didn’t. I always thought he was really nice, funny… and married. The end. Sometimes he brought his young son out to the park. Then one summer he told me he had filed for divorce, was living in the basement, just trying to finish out the school year for their son’s sake, that sort of thing. (See how he makes himself look like the benevolent father who’s just trying to do right by his kid?)
Basically, I was an idiot. I was in love with this man, not for the sex (he had ED), but for him… or the “him” I thought he was. And he was in love with me, he said. He just needed to finish out the school year (son was having problems in school, etc.), let the lawyers finish up…. Blah blah blah… you know the lies already, but I didn’t. I was only 24 years old and didn’t know shit about this level of deceit. — He proposed to me, got down on one knee, the whole shebang.
I’ll cut to the chase and tell you all what you already know: it was all lies. Well, his marriage WAS in trouble (duh), but as for the rest? Who knows. The end of the school year came & went and… still no divorce. What’s up?, I asked. Lies, he replied. — And that was the end. I broke it off and never spoke to him again.
My point is: sometimes the OW/APs are vindictive sociopaths who fuck around just for the thrill of it. But I do believe there are others who are also being deceived by the narc/sociopaths and the lies they spin. — I was young and stupid and never knew the havoc I was wreaking. It’s no excuse, I know.
Wasn’t Lewinsky younger than that?
Yep. And she didn’t know shit either, did she? I’m not asking for forgiveness. I understand what I did was wrong. Sadly, the same self-esteem issues that led me to think tolerating years of neglect from XH in our marriage also had their effect earlier in my life such that I allowed myself to be taken in by the lies of someone I’d known for several years, had come to trust as a friend, and who’d told me his marriage was over except for the paperwork. For all I know, that’s the same story my own XH told Schmoopie. If so, it’s a particularly incisive and precise form of Karma.
I don’t know what Bill Clinton told Monica Lewinsky… that’s their own story and one she was dumb enough to believe. Just like I was dumb enough to believe my/his story.
I don’t think you did anything to cause bad karma to find you. You sound like a very good, kind person. Did you make a mistake as a young person? Yes, but you were lied to. Big difference between that and someone willingly, knowingly having an affair with a married man. We can all look back on certain things in life with shoulda couldas. But your mistake was trusting the wrong person, naïveté maybe, but not malice. Forgive yourself. You didn’t do anything to deserve a cheating spouse.
NWB, you’re a well-liked and well-respected member of this community, and your posts have given a lot of us, including me, lots of comfort and encouragement. There is a huge difference between between between being lied to by a married person and setting out to deliberately entice someone and derail a relationship. Once you knew you’d been deceived, you broke things off.
The ML crack was a really low blow and completely uncalled for. Attacking other chumps like that, especially in such an underhanded, insulting way, is really telling. Good thing it’s not my blog, otherwise I’d ban the commenter faster than you could spell ‘confirmation bias.’ But hey, that’s just me.
Not sure what happened there with all those vinyl-scratched ‘betweens.’ Sorry about that.
Thanks, guys.
It probably took me about twenty minutes to type a response up there — kept deleting and re typing, deleting, changing…. I didn’t want it to seem like I was rationalizing my behavior, as we’ve all discussed here on the forum before: “I’m sorry, BUT…!!!”
What I wanted to say was that I didn’t lust after that guy, I didn’t set out to destroy his marriage, I didn’t “get off” on his being married. Honestly, being proposed to by him then finding out it was all lies was one of the most painful things in my young life. Having said that, I’m not looking for sympathy at all, just a different perspective on the motivations of the APs. Yes, some are devious and malicious and cruel, but since so many of the APs are young (in their 20s seems to be a common theme), I think some of them (as I was) are just delusional, gullible, naive, stupid, …
NW – that took incredible courage – you learned, your left, and I assuming this all happened before finding so much information online was an option.
I think one telling trait of truly decieved OW is that they END IT when they do find out. I wish nowadays that they’d find out sooner, with the ability to do so available – but if you are duped, then as soon as you find out the person is married – END IT. And yes, take all the evidence to the betrayed spouse so that they can make an informed decision.
And to the poster who wondered why the betrayed wife was still with the cheater? In my case, I wasn’t sure about the cheating – I had no proof, but I never could have left him. He would have killed me, or taken our children overseas. That was made very clear – he was all about looking good, and that would have blown his cover. I was (in retrospect) so very blessed, although it sure didn’t feel like it at the time, that he finally did leave me. And the OW he left for? When she did pull it together, I have heard that she googled our names, and found several albums of family photos I’d developed at WalMart, where the privacy setting were not set (how that happened, I don’t know – I just consider it one of those little miracles…) The captions I’d put on the photos popped up on Google, such as “The Smiths Family Christmas”; “Johnny Smith’s 4th Birthday”, and so on. And exH was in those photos with his wedding ring on. And I hear she dumped him immediately. That made forgiving her much easier.
ignore Arnold. he is a troll.
Arnold, Lewinsky knowingly fucked around with a married man. Many scumbag married MEN use the basement scenario and waiting for the papers to finalize bullshit to victimize single women who are trusting and selfless. Narcs enjoy inflicting pain and sometimes their words give them away. My X had affairs with at least two women he convinced he was divorced. It’s so typical of narcs to enjoy adding insult to injury. I’m getting better at identifying this in men. It becomes obvious with experience. I always wonder why they prey on the vulnerable chumps.
My XH’s dad told his own OW (red flag, anyone?) that his wife was DEAD and the kids were still traumatized, and that’s why she wasn’t allowed the meet them! The baffling thing to me is that she stayed with him (and married him!) even after she found out it was all a lie.
FWIW, I think Arnold’s question is valid. There’s a lot of pain here on this website, and I expected at least one or two people to express themselves, as is their right. At the age of 24, shouldn’t I have had better sense? I had already graduated college and arguably could’ve had my own children by then. Doesn’t that argue for a certain level of expected responsibility? It does. And I was dumb, and needy, and was really in love. In his words, it was already all over, just waiting on the paperwork, all for the sake of his troubled son. Should I have made us wait? Yes. But I trusted him to manage his own relationship and be telling the truth, which he wasn’t. As I said, I suspect my own XH probably used a similar tactic, but who knows? OW was also still married when they got together, so … They deserve each other, as far as I’m concerned.
I just want to point out that Bill Clinton obviously wasn’t living in the basement of the White House.
I think Monica was subjected to the flattery of having the leader of the free world attracted to her. For that, and because she really did suffer more than any of them, I will give her a pass.
He should have know better than to abuse that power. She should’ve known better than to take him up on it. I’m voting for Hillary and the whole thing is over.
I tend to get very attached to my sexual partners. I don’t have a of them, and I probably give them more significance than their worth. I think most other people don’t work that way, and that is the basis I have for trying to move on.
So the OW was just an opportunity. He’s the one that took it/her. Same is true in the reverse for men.. There should be some sort of Myers-Briggs sexual profile testing so that I do not need to go through this again.
I sympathize but if the guy was married, in the process of divorce, it was not right to bang him.
btw, I did express the belief that Lewinsky should be cut some slack due to her age , as well. Folks did not likevthat.
For the record, there was no banging (see the erectile dysfunction comment). But, as I said, yes, it was wrong. And knowing what I know now, I’d run screaming for the hills. And that’s really all I’m gonna say about that. I made my point, admitted my wrongdoing, and … That’s it.
NWB, you didn’t do a damn thing wrong! You were pursued by a predator! Don’t you go beating yourself up on that because you were none the wiser. You’re no more to blame for that than you would be to get cheated on.
Thanks, TBJ, but I do think what I did was wrong. I was young & stupid enough to feel like “his” situation was not “my” problem. But, of course, it WAS my problem. And in society as a whole, it IS our problem… all of ours. From the friends who choose the cheater, to the self-help books who tell the chump to just suck it up, it shouldn’t be condoned or supported. Sadly, by that point in my life, I’d already been hit on by so many married guys that I actually thought that finding one who was actually “essentially divorced” was a step up. I had crap self-esteem and wanted love so badly… and boy that guy gave it in spades, made me feel like I was a queen. It was an addiction, I suppose. — And that continued need for love kept me in my marriage, as well. I’ve done a lot of work this past year, and I’m a much better person.
My whole point is that I think a lot of us here still struggle with the WTF-Happened? situation. And I just wanted to share my own experience NOT as a means of anything other than providing additional data. — FWIW, my sister’s cheating first husband’s OW was more in line with the type of woman CL describes: knowingly screwing a married guy for 6-7 years, taunting my sister on the phone, …. Sadly, it appears this situation is all too common, for any number of reasons. And so here we are.
Alright, alright
Just so long as you recognize that you didn’t seek out a married man for courtship, he sought after you and created an alternate version of his circumstances to get you hooked.
It could’ve just as easily been the truth that he and his wife actually were divorcing and then you would’ve been in the clear. Plenty of “separated” folks date before their divorce in finalized, I am right now, and I’m certainly NOT still involved with my STBX and never will be. The guy I’m dating is at the mercy of my honesty, luckily I’m transparent…maybe too much so. Lol.
NW Biblio I guess the main thing is you do feel some remorse. You learned something about values. You changed because of it.
Let’s not forget that there are plenty of women out there that find married men irresistible. The wedding ring is a magnet, like nectar to a bee. It’s a bigger win for them to take a man away from another woman. As soon as her married partner becomes unmarried, he loses his luster. It’s defeating another woman that drives them. They really are predators. How do you shame a Velociraptor?
They are called “Ludus lovers” chumptastic. They are in it just to “win” and once they get the “prize” then they dump them. I believe my ex husbands paramour is one!
I worked with a lady liked only married men. Until she became pregnant because he loved her and was leaving his wife. Well guess what his wife was pregnant too! I watched her call him from work and beg and grovel and in the end he never left his wife. She has raised her child by herself.
Jackass LOVES married women. He told me of at least 3 relationships he had with married women.
I don’t care if Princess Pelvis slept around. I care that she slept with my husband. Big difference. She is a shitty person because she deliberately engages in behaviors that hurt people. That’s really all it is.
Thank you Tracy !! I can’t tell you how much I needed this today. I’ve been feeling sorry for myself, and that somehow I deserved what they did to me and my kids.
The OW, Jesus preaching, decades younger waitress/employee, who started the affair with my ex/ her boss when I was battling cancer, walks around with that air of arrogance of “how dare you insinuate that she’s a slut, etc.”. She has left notes in my mailbox, on my car, put nails in my tires, a year and a half after the divorce was final and he bought her a huge home, she chased me down on the road and tried to force me into oncoming traffic (my coworkers made me call the police on that, and she’s finally stopped her antics). SHE has been the one with the rage and anger towards me and my kids, badmouthing us to anyone who will listen. While I made a promise to my kids when DDay happened that I would stay far away from the two of them, and never engage. And although I’ll admit that it was very tough at times to keep that promise, for my own sake, I will always be grateful that I did. My word to my kids meant more than any fleeting satisfaction I would have received from going down into the gutter and engaging those two cheaters. But I will never alter my opinion of them.
Kathy–how could you POSSIBLY deserve what they did to you? Banish that thought immediately. Want empirical confirmation that your cheater has a bad character? Check out this excerpt: http://www.datingatmidlife.com/David%20Buss%20article.htm
I never refer to my X’s main affair partner (the only one I know the name for) as anything other than G*****(her name)-slut, or grad-slut, or grad-whore (or worse). Don’t like the label, don’t do the behavior.
Thank you so much Tempest.
Its decades of his lies, manipulations, and gaslighting. I may not post very often, but I never miss a day of reading all the posts here, I can’t possibly express how much this site and everyone here has helped me.
And I’m going to check that link right now. Thanks !
as i read this article, the last fourth blames the chump, stating betrayed partners in this study had characteristics of being “emotionally unstable and quarrelsome” and that this created a living hell that drove the cheater into the arms of another.
David Buss (an evolutionary psychologist and the researcher) uses a correlational design, and without a randomized control group, his cause and effect conclusions cannot be drawn. Though i personally think he is spot on about characteristics of XH: narcissistic, not conscientious, and psychosis-sociopathic!
come to think of it, i might even look the other way with Buss’ generalizations if, in his discussion about the traits of the betrayed partner, he had said something like: of course, anyone partnered with a narcissistic irresponsible sociopath is bound to have strong emotional reactions! haha
tempest – curious your take on this?
Yes, I agree Chumpette, I found that the later part a little unsettling.
Mainly because, it reminded me of the gaslighting that went on and increased during the final years. He kept telling me I was crazy, and I felt unsettled any time we were out in public, he did it to me and he did it to our kids. It turns out those feelings my kids and I had of something not being right, of people’s odd reactions, of how they would interact with us, or relate events/feelings that never happened or weren’t true – was because – my XH and their Dad was spinning lies about us, how we felt, what we did. Even when I tried to correct what was said to me, others would look at me like I was crazy, or my kids were.
And my XH spun so many lies, he can’t tell reality from the truth anymore. The last time he ever spoke to our S24, was a huge argument, because my son was trying to make his Dad see how distorted his memory of our family was, tried to point out all his lies. And getting nowhere, my son said “what’s the point of even taking to you, when you can’t tell your lies from the truth?” And his Dad said “There is no point! ”
AND that’s the last time they have spoken ….2 1/2 years ago.
As sad as that is……my kids are happier, more stable, my daughter no longer hides in her room. They’re stronger, more confident, compassionate, and the walls in this house sing Again.. That argument was the last time voices have been raised in in anger in this home.
So I disagree with the last part of that article. I’ll take CL’s wisdom, and not take the blame for the choice that my lowlife ex and his “slut” made.
Chumpette–I completely agree; it is purely a correlational study. It is also based on *anticipated* infidelity by newlyweds rather than actual behavior. Thus, in the second half of the excerpt, the higher reported rates of unfaithful behaviors could simply be people reportng that, because their spouse is emotionally unstable, they *think* they might be more likely to flirt, have an affair, etc. Even CL admits that there are exit affairs which don’t fit the bill of usual cheaters–one possibility is that spouses of emotionally unstable husbands/wives are more likely to engage in, or anticipate, exit affairs. Obviously, the Buss & Shackelford study didn’t tackle all of these issues or distinctions.
Buss has done a follow-up study on actual cheating behaviors (rather than anticipated), but has not published it (I’m trying to get the results). I also suspect there are personality differences between serial and one-time cheaters that would be interesting to explore. Also worth exploring is personality data on OW/OM.
I should also add that, because the study is purely correlational, it is equally likely that a partner’s perceived willingness to cheat could be the CAUSE of emotional instability in the other partner.
Agree Tempeat, or maybe the gaslighting, I wonder how the betrayed partners mental state was determined…I can guess…
Tempest -thanks for commenting. i add caution here for non-scienctist chumps: social science research is riddled with potential mis-use by lay consumers. researchers, too, if their discussion of results is not accurate! anticipated or not, in re-reading the article, the writer’s leap from correlational data to speculative conclusions sounds far too definitive.
when media folks get ahold of this and pass it along to lay persons, even though it is empirical, these results do not translate into a generalizable physical law (like E=MC squared) that applies to all. humans are far too complex for this.
that said, i was pleased that kathy and i spotted Buss’ blame shifting myth at work (“she drove him into the arms of another woman”…) for what it was and we did not let it stick to us!
Kathy – how wonderful your son has a clear boundary between himself and his cheater father’s lies. my young adult daughters re-started contact with their father (after almost 2 years) and he is spinning many lies that *i now see* he actually believes and that confuse them. i am figuring out what to do with this…
I’m a fan of Man-ho myself.
Glad you wrote this today, CL, slut shaming has its place. Several times while talking to my STBX I have referred to the OW as a “your whore” which I use interchangeably with “slut” but I guess that’s an insult to honest prostitutes everywhere.
One time he told me to stop calling her that. I said, “Why? Women who sleep with other women’s husbands are whores.” He never said anything about it again.
I blame him far, far more than I blame her — but I do blame her. My STBX was a lot of negative things but he had never cheated before she came along (we were together constantly). I have no doubt, however, that he gave her an earful about how he couldn’t take it anymore with me, how I’m too anxious and suicidal and all the horrors that he put up with. Never ever admitting to her that he never contributed to our expenses and that by the time he met her I was lying awake every night wondering how we’d pay rent when I had never wondered how I’d pay rent in my ENTIRE LIFE before that. And certainly not mentioning to her that he physically and emotionally abused me for years.
Yes, I’m certain he painted himself out to be a martyr and she bought it all, idiot.
Sadly, I don’t think she’s lost a minute of sleep over me. I’m just that nut, that much older woman who she cannot relate to at all. I can just hear her saying to her friends, “She’s crazy. He did all he could for her.” Sometimes I have fantasies of posting on her FB wall that she should consider taking down her Gandhi and Mother Teresa quotes since she obviously has no morals at all. But I won’t.
As far as his friends and lover are concerned I just walked off into the sunset. They have no idea of what really happened or the incredible pain I’ve suffered. Whatever they know comes from the subtle lies my STBX has carefully planted. And I imagine they don’t give me any thought anyway.
Just recently I’ve realized that I’m really glad to be away from him and his never ending drama. And now discovering that I’m not nearly as anxious or pathetic as he made me believe I was. Funny, that.
Both my XWs were OW before I met them. They are narcissistic pieces of shit who care about no one but themselves. I mean, these women are truly frightening behind closed doors, abusers of the highest order.
I think it is time we accept that women are highly sexual, in many case having much higher sex drives than men. I would not shame a woman for pursuing sexual gratification. But, my XWs did not have to pick married guys to fuck.
As for words used to describe promiscuous guys, I have heard “hound”, “sleaze”.
I have to ask you Arnold….. I know my X was on “good behavior” in the beginning. Do women exhibit this good behavior farce to get men hooked as well??
Thats a narc thing, not a women-exclusive thing. And its not restricted to relationships either – it happens with any sort of interaction with others.
They do it because if they didn’t have the mask, people would run the hell away from their nutjobbery pronto.
Agree with Lania. The mask deal is the hallmark of the disordered regardless of gender. These folks are really good at it too.
Jackass’s mask also included his political preferences. He seemed apolitical when I was with him. I am not apolitical but I have family and friends across the spectrum. But now he proudly posts his Facebook “likes” and most of them are very extreme politically. I truly had no idea, but had he one time tried to pull that racist crap out on me, he would have been history. Hence the mask. But that’s why they can’t sustain anything. For all I know, the “new” jackass is a pose for the kind of females he encounters in his neighborhood and workplace. Or maybe that’s what he really thinks. Who knows and who cares? But I’m sure lots of other stuff was going on behind that mask.
I didn’t give a rats ass about the girl or woman involved as much as I did about my asshole husband for taking her up or going after it.
In the end, the cheater who feigned commitment is the TRUE asswipe not the man or woman they chose to screw. Hear that OW/OM. It’s not all about you. You “won” a cheater. Big deal and look over your shoulder the next one is right behind you.
The kibbles will always be. Always. If you are playing with a married man or woman, you put yourself out there for name calling, period.
I have had attraction to married men, not physical, but they never saw it and the horror I know I would feel if I ever acted on it. A ring or marriage meant “DEAD END” on that road.
Why do I have that wall and other men/women don’t? Why is that boundary missing in cheatees?
I think it’s because they want what they want and they have no “skin” in the game. When the shit hits the fan they are just spun off unless it’s more serious and the OW/OM want a relationship with the cheater.
I tried to get into their head but it’s just spaghetti thinking. A bunch of noodles with no rhyme or reason.
I wonder how many people are reading this site who were the other woman or man, got cheated on and now knows how it feels. I think some will do it again because it’s part of their game and others will never put themselves in the position of being the OM/OW again because they understand the pain it brings.
What produced the new boundary? Fear of being called a name or conscience?
What bothers me the most is that there really isn’t any “slut shaming” nowadays. Your EX banged his married boss – oh well! Friends accept it, their family accepts it (my new most hated phrase is “it is what it is”), heck the COURT system accepts it.
There are no longer any social or legal consequences for when married people commit adultery. I live in a state where adultery is still a CRIME (class 3 misdemeanor) but no one enforces it (seriously, I heard that one person who did get the police to act on it got sued in reverse for wasting their time). Alienation of affection laws are the same way (if you are lucky enough to live in one of the seven U.S. states that still allow these type of lawsuits).
So, a crime is committed, you go to court (or don’t even bother) and this crime has no bearing or no effect. Lying and cheating, devastating a family, causing huge financial difficulties (usually for the left behind spouse – does a Chump ever run away when their isn’t more money involved?) has no consequence.
So, why not cheat with a married person if that’s what gets you all hot and bothered? No one cares, there are virtually no consequences.
JJRegret, I agree. I’ve heard others here mention that if you had a business partner who lied and robbed from you, let alone exposed you to STDs, you could sue them. But as spouses there’s nothing the innocent partner can do, period.
I wonder if infidelity clauses work?
This is what pisses a lot of folks off. It is one of the most grievous offenses that can be committed but their is absolutely no redress. We hold it out as a contract more sacred than a business contract, but breaching a marriage contract has zero consequences, legally. What a sham the whole thing is. Why bother with marriage? Odds are you will be getting divorced and screwed.
I have to agree that I don’t quite see the purpose of marriage nowadays. In the old days it did protect a woman who stayed at home with an apron on and had no marketable skills — not so any more.
It offers zero protection to either gender.
It does offer some financial protection. I gave up a higher-paying, secure job to move with my cheater so that he could have a GREAT job. Without that marriage certificate, I would be living close to the poverty line for a family of 4.
Yes, and I suppose the spouse is generally considered the heir unless there is a will that states otherwise.
I guess it does offer some limited protection if it lasts long enough to enable someone to claim spousal maintenance.
Still breaching the contract does not seem to matter at all.
Same here Tempest. At approaching 60 with grown up children without the marriage all I would be entitled to would have been half our small house, even though I gave up work by mutual agreement to look after the children so he could progress his career
Honestly…. as i already mentioned in a comment earlier in this thread…. one of the best things about my situation is that we never went through with marriage. I was ALL for it when he proposed (VERY quickly, dummy that I am) and it took me a few years to realize what a financial disaster he was. I was always a struggling single Mother… but I made that very clear when we had discussions…. he did NOT…. all of his problems were always because of something someone else did. I didn’t have any mountain of debt or anything…. just not a substantial income and honestly always just got by… it wasn’t fun…. but i did it!!!
Considering how horribly irresponsible most narcs are….. keeping finances separate isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
Marriage protects kids. It conveys property rights and rights to inherit if there is no will. It allows a partner to make medical decisions and be in the hospital room in an emergency. It gives a father or mother rights to file for child support, for custody and visitation without having to prove paternity. It makes spouses who stay at home with kids or elderly parents or the disabled eligible for spouse’s Social Security and Medicare. It provides tax advantages and joint income that can count when buying a house or applying for credit.
There are also disadvantages, as well as know, if you marry a disordered person. But gay people, for example, are fighting for marriage rights for good reasons.
After all the cheating my X did I had to keep the boy on my health insurance and pay the difference between single and married. He wasn’t too worried about my health having unprotected sex with multiple women. So I now continue to pay this assholes benifits. When I threw him out I begged him to use his benefits to get professional help for his porn, alcohol, drug, and serial cheating disorder. At that point I still loved him. Final divorce papers will soon be completed His selfish choices in the end left him in in a situation he can’t escape. He can’t get married, he stopped going to the gym and he wakes up to an abusive whore. On top of that he now has to pay his own taxes which are $$$$$. I hear he is living like a teenager and truly suffering. I used to want him to suffer, however now that I see the impact on his children I have reconsidered. I am no longer there to provide him with the only stability he ever had. They own the consequences in the end when we leave. Now after almost a year I am able to laugh and focus on myself. There are no winners in the mess they create especially with children involved. But moving forward allowed me to step back and relieve myself of the toxicity I lived with. It does get better.
I agree JJRegret and Moving Liquid.
One of the realities that has been hard to process is the amount of people (long time friends, or so I thought), who utter that phrase “it is what it is”, or any crap phrase about happiness.
This whole thing has shown me who my real friends are.
This is such a good point JJ. One of the best ways to destroy a whole society is by destroying the family unit one at a time. During Old Testament times, all adulterers were stoned to death. I’m all for reinstituting that!
I’m starting my pile of rocks…..
I will gladly help.
JJ, I agree with some of what you said, and disagree with other points. First of all—there IS legal recourse, in some states, as you mentioned yours in one. What you’re basically saying is that “it’s not enforced”–because it’s too costly for the betrayed spouse to go after the AP….not because the law won’t stand behind you on it. The law is the law. You take it to court, you have evidence, you win. But that takes money, time, effort and you going and broadcasting your personal affairs (no pun intended) to the world and to the internet of instant information access.
That sucks all the way around. You can do it, and it’s enforceable, but really—
it goes to my next point–
You CAN get legal redress, EASILY, just not against the AP. You get to take your spouse to the cleaners, particularly in the states where adultery is a crime. Especially if the cheating spouse is a SAHM/D—and the faithful partner is the income. The cheater loses everything. Custody, alimony/palimony–and in all likelihood–visitation without supervision.
That is—if you are interested in really holding the person who is mostly at fault—accountable.
The AP was ***INVITED*** into the marriage, they weren’t drugged, dragged, coerced or kidnapped. THE CHEATING SPOUSE is the one who brought this horror into the mix—and THE CHEATING SPOUSE needs to be held fully and totally accountable, in all ways legally possible.
My guess is that most people don’t want to go this route, because of several reasons–public humiliation on top of private humiliation is a big thing–it would be for me—the expense—and then there is always that nagging “thing” in the back of your mind that maybe…just maybe….My Spouse Might Straighten Up and come back to their senses–you don’t want to look like the crazy, vindictive, spiteful, bitter spouse who goes and sues for damages.
If your family and friends (or his) find his behavior “is what it is”—then you need to cut those people off at the knees. Right now. That is part and parcel of keeping true friends who have your back and cutting loose the assholes like your cheater.
At the end of it all—sending your broke, no custody, alimony and child support paying cheating spouse with a big red bow tied to the top of their pointy head–over to the AP with your blessing—you’re saying that this isn’t winning?
Not many states like that, though, unfortunately.
It is what it is…. tell me that when you walk in my shoes, then we can start discussing it. We deal with a lot of bs but we sure as hell don’t have to live with that.
Should the OW take as much blame as the cheating spouse? No, I don’t think so, but I do think they still SUCK.
I suppose that’s true. It’s easier to feel no real compassion or empathy for somebody you don’t know at all after all. It probably takes a minute or two to go outside of your own box to consider the effects on others.
And betrayal by somebody who really knows you and who you really trusted cuts a lot deeper than betrayal by some chick or dude you don’t know who has no boundaries.
Well, and the sad fact is the AP was *invited.* Chumps like to make it out like it was predatory, but your spouse invited this person into their life. Say the AP stole a TV set, well, your spouse was there with the door open, and the dolly, and the get away truck, saying “hey! Free TV set for the taking!”
Stealing TVs is still wrong. A sensible person knows this is a dodgy situation and that they are stealing it. But hey, it’s so easy! Who will ever know? And this nice person is offering me a free TV!
Often invited, and in my case, apparently actively pursued.
OWife told this to 13 yr old daughter while her father listened, and he said nothing to contradict it.
Gee, why did teenage daughter attempt suicide shortly thereafter?
Well said, Chump Lady.
They *invited* this person into our lives, our kids lives. I, for one, will never forgive him for that.
Some people are so traumatized that they cannot accept the fact that their spouse was an equal participant. I find it sad to see these betrayed spouses characterizing their cheating spouses as some sort of victim of a predator. They just cannot accept that their spouse chose the pother person over them.
There is a big difference between aknowledging the fact that the are predatory women out there and perceiving the cheating spouse as a victim. Today’s post is about “Slut-Shaming”. The focus is on other women and their PR campaign to reframe society’s perception of them by using alliterative catchy phrases.
Portraying themselves as victims.
Yes. For example, early Facebook contact between Crapweasel and Dr. Hoe:
Dr. Hoe: “Are you married?” (multi-time OW, fishing)
Crapweasel: “Yes, unfortunately.” (asshole-wants-to-cheat opening the door wide, here.)
et voila! cheating, lies, blame-shifting, the ball-o-wax. divorce.
Me, I’m well on the road to Meh, and learning that my abuse from Crapweasel was just the tip of the iceberg (meaning, work narc abuse, etc.)
Right on, CL.
Scenario #1: You drop a pencil at work. You bend over to pick the pencil up, inadvertently flashing the top of your thong in front of your coworker. It’s still the 90s, so the coworker goes around the office talking about how you are a slut because you wear thong underwear. That’s wrong.
Scenario #2: You are getting dressed for work. You think about what pair of panties you want to flash at your married boss. You engineer a moment in which to bend over and flash your panties at said married boss. That’s slutty.
Excellent affairpartnerslutshameectomy!
What an outstanding forum, we should create a bunch of terms for man-slut and then make a wiki page for it.
Dirty-Dick
OMG – yes. If someone told me that a man I was interested in was a Dirty-Dick, that would stop me in my tracks – right now! walk away from the dirty-dick.
After finding this blog I went on the hunt in the ether and found about a zillion “poor. pitiful me’s” from Ow/OM. Sickening is the first think that happens. Tummy rumblings. I suggest you give yourselves a day or two and stroll thru their blogs. Narcissism runs rampant. The blogs from the bs are heartbreaking. I can’t count the number of them I have told about this blog. One I have just started reading is still in pain from 2008!!!! People who lie and cheat are liars and cheaters. You can change the wording till the cows come home but it doesn’t change the fact that they are cheating. I feel like I am doing battle on behalf of my brother who did not have a CL. If my little puny voice can get one bs out from under some of their awful pain I hope my brother knows.
Sure it was my douche bag husband that cheated and I’ll never forgive him in a million years but I also hate the OW’s Mother f***king guts because she knew me and she knew he was a married man. Any woman who spreads her legs for a married man is the lowest of the low in my book and I wait every day for that Karma bus to run up one side of her and down the other. She does get uglier and fatter by the day but that’s not good enough for me. Asshole cancer would be awesome because isn’t that what assholes should get?
It’s a double betrayal when the AP knows you. Those motherfuckers are SICK. I’m so sorry.
The OW in my case was a colleague who I trusted, especially with some info on my XH. She was ‘safe’ right?- two young (IVF) children and seemingly so nice. Until the FB stalking of XH. She clearly was set on having his ‘gorgeous’ (her word) sparkly self. She clearly had no regard for me, or any sense of boundaries. When XH confessed to sleeping with her, the shock at her audacity was enormous. I still struggle to understand how she thought this was acceptable behaviour- to me, and the father of her children. I then had to deal not only with double betrayal but also a horrendous work situation.
Well now she has him and may have learnt that what I told her was true- about the alcoholism, the financial and emotional abuse, the serial infidelity… Oh, I didn’t tell her about that last bit. My fervent hope is she stays around long enough to find that out for herself.
Two of the OW knew me and had spent time in my home. The others knew of my existence. Not one of them cared. So fuck them all.
Yes CL, double betrayal hurts double. All three OWs (that I know of) were my cheater’s colleagues and one was a grad student. Two were married and two were cheated on by their husbands. They knew me, came to my home, met my children and I often served them refreshments when they came with other people to “work” at our home.. I am 100% sure they wanted my life and thought that they could easily replace me and move into our lovely home. Plus, they all owe my cheater something: a recommendation, a dissertation supervision, a job…I owe him nothing of the sort and he always hated that I made more money than he did in the same profession (professors). Now he is stuck with tons of debt and an OW with a child who makes half of what he does. I still have to pay him for part of our home, but I get to keep it and now money and great people are coming back into my life.
Cheaters and OWs so much deserve each other! It is true that you attract what you focus on…I realized from all the red flags that I attracted a cheater-loser many years ago because I didn´t feel to good about myself, the biological clock was ticking and so many other excuses. But I am learning the biggest lesson is to not waste time on losers and to be loving to myself. If I had cared for me a long time ago, I wouldn´t have accepted unacceptable behaviour. OWs Karma is that she is the one that has to deal with all the cheater´s anger and shitty behaviour. She is a slut who KNOWS that she in a relationship with a cheater. So she also has to deal with that…Ha! Ha!
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I’m glad you’ve come out of that terrible situation so well. Good for you that you have put together a great life.
I’m with you Syringa. I hold them both accountable. Final OW knew he was married with two young kids. Shortly after I found out about her I reached out to her directly (mortifying to think about now) and asked that she back off while we went into MC, for the sake of innocent children. She refused. I don’t really feel personally offended by her, because he cheated with several women, and I’m sure they were all told some bullshit version of “my wife is frigid/distant,” but I get all riled up when I think about how she knew he had young kids at home. Heck, the kids weren’t even “at home” all that time; he brought them around her behind my back. Lowest of the low, absolutely.
I’m with you guys too. OW was the family hairdresser of 7 years, beginning when my daughter was 4. My daughter and I saw her every month for 7 years. Skank hairdresser began giving my wasband of 25 years blowjobs with the haircut (and he had to pay, by the way — don’t know if it was for the haircut or the bj) after we were customers for 6 years. I found out after affair had been going on for a year and had progressed to both a physical and emotional affair. I blame them both, neither had the decency to send me and my daughter to another hairdresser after the affair began. I made that bitch muffins for Christmas. He let me, and she took them. I too contacted her after I found out about affair, asked her to back off and told her she deserved better than to be with a married man. She said she did deserve better and would back off. Her reaction was to compose an email asking wasband to leave me and daughter. He didn’t have to, as I left him and moved with my daughter 1,000 miles away. Told him he could ruin his life by getting with a recovering heroin addict unlicensed hairdresser with three hooligan children and a bi-polar ex-husband who frequently goes off his meds, but he wasn’t dragging us down with him. I believe he is still in a relationship with her, but she is such a major downgrade for him he hasn’t introduced or even mentioned her to any friends or family, and I don’t think he ever will. She and their relationship are not the things one brags about.
What a loser! My ex was too. No thought for his choices. A hard dick has no conscience, indeed!
I agree Syringa. X’s AP had been around me and my kids and had even been to my house on several occasions. No she didn’t make any promises to me (though she did to HER husband) but she definitely deserves some shame for knowingly help break up little kids’ family.
A friend of mine compared it to a bank robbery – the Cheater might be the one committing the crime, but the OW/OM is the one driving the getaway car.
And often the one encouraging them to go rob the bank! And certainly looking forward to spending the money later.
Syringa, I had the same experience with OW and can empathize with that special breed of pain. OW & I knew each other well, went out as a foursome with husbands frequently, she piped in on most of my Facebook posts, praising my kids, my cooking, even my parents’ 50th wedding anniversary (“wow – what a milestone!!) — all while fucking my husband. And we weren’t friends before the affair began – she slyly sidled up to me after.
After I found out, Whore still kept posting scripture and memes about what a great mom she was on FB. I flew into a week-long rage about this, then realized that I couldn’t just hate HER, I had to have at least the same level of vitriol at my husband. They are BOTH complete assholes. Together they blew up four beautiful little kids, two families and two marriages. I have all their emails where they talk about being 100% committed to risking their families and careers for their “relationship.” I have more respect for people who rob banks at gunpoint than those who work this hard to fuck over the people who love them. “Slut” doesn’t quite cover it for her and I have no idea what to call him, but they are both despicable scum.
I got the OW ‘slyly sidling up to me’ at work before the affair- trying to find out about our situation and XH. I thought it was nice she cared! I also got from XH that he and OW were going to do ‘whatever it takes’ to be together. I do remember sneering at the time and saying they weren’t bloody Romeo and Juliet. Of course then, I wasn’t thinking about how that particular drama ends…..
Didn’t they realise that Romeo and Juliet killed themselves? Hardy-har-har. Maybe they should off themselves too? Might make your life a lot easier.
One of the OW worked everyday with exH – they were “soulmates”, don’t cha know. She complained all day at the office – in front of her teenage kids – about how horrible her husband was. Then flirted with her married boss, and her kids’ coach in front of the kids. Classy. She also befriended me, and offered advice about how I needed to find time for me, I needed to work out so I’d have more in common with exH, all the while lamenting about her terrible husband, her broken FOO and her cheating dad…blah blah. Of all the whores, I detest this one the most. Her children are now both married (they married at 20 and 21) and so now she’s stuck alone in the house with her “horrible” husband for the next 30 years. Her church (she also loved quoting scripture to my while f’ing my husband) forbids divorce, so on the rare occasion I consider her scrawny-assed, bleach blond, hair-cut to look like mine, leather-tanned skin slunt self, I just chuckle. You’ve earned your misery, you home-wrecking whore.
The OW in my situation worked with my STBXH. She was introduced to my son and I when he first started working there. We talked about raising boys because she has a son also. Divorced 3 times already, and knowing what the true story was, she and my STBXH started a relationship. I am sure I was talked about as being asexual or sex was boring. However, in the beginning of the summer before i knew anything, I told my cheater that my summer goal was to have mind-blowing orgasms. When DDay occurred, he told me that he didn’t like that I said that to him. WHAT?!? What husband in his right mind would be upset about his wife wanting to have lots of sex with him!!! GOOD sex!! I figured if I am getting mine, then he would certainly be getting his. But no. But that is not the narrative he tells people. The truth would not help his situation.
So, she has now completely blocked me from seeing her at all on FB. I don’t really understand that. I never communicated with her on FB or posted any crazy shit. I went on the down-low. I only changed my martial status and shared a blog post or two about being in pain that I was separated. I think she felt shame. She knew what she did was wrong. I am now in her situation. Raising a son alone for all intents and purposes. I do not envy her though. She can have him. I am free. I FEEL free. But I will never understand how a woman can do that to another woman. What woman would want to be with a guy who leaves his family? Oh yeah, right. She’s “special”. He’ll be different with her. I as an asshole. What ever lies help you sleep at night slut.
Knowingly getting involved with someone already in a relationship is wrong, period. It is exponentially worse when children are involved (how do I know? my father cheated, and my daughter attempted suicide after her father left the family for the OWife and started another family)
I do not believe in slut shaming, etc. I do not even think is those terms.
But I will always call out cheaters on their behavior, whether the cheater, or the affair partner.
“Knowingly getting involved with someone already in a relationship is wrong, period. ”
Let’s take this a step further and also say that everyone has a duty when dating to be cognizant of the telltale signs that someone is married or in an exclusive relationship of some sort.
I think some dating guides tell women not to force the issue on certain matters…….. because they may appear too interested. But….. before one “falls in love”, before one starts to “have feelings for that person”, they should do their due diligence.
So far as I am concerned, Jackass get 100% of the responsibility for his lying, cheating, gaslighting, meanness, blame shifting, adolescent capering, and smirking. The MOW may not have even known about me until DDay so perhaps she didn’t understand the devastation her actions caused in my life. However, she certainly knew about her husband and her three children. And she whines about how sad, lonely and lost she is. I am largely indifferent to Jackass (and more so as I still learn things about him that I didn’t know) other than watching from the sidelines to see him repeat the same patterns again and again. On the other hand, when MOW got kicked to the curb, I figured “what goes around, comes around.” The fact that she DIDN”T know me but still figured it was OK to blow up my life bothers me. I felt like a dog she decided to run over on the road. It wasn’t personal, but I still felt like I was going to die. I can only imagine what her chumped husband feels–I do know from social media that he was aware the marriage was on rocky ground. And her poor kids, who love her so much and whom she fawns over on social media while risking their family. Jackass hurt me–his friend and supposed partner. MOW was hurting her own family–and me.
To me, slut shaming is when the person has not done ANYTHING WRONG. If you are fucking around in an adulterous relationship, you have done SOMETHING WRONG. Huge difference.
Exactly. Fuck who you want if you’re both free. That’s the joy of being a modern adult: you’re in charge of your own sexuality and no one has a right to tell you there’s something wrong with enjoying if fully. But fuck with other people’s lives? You’re an asshole with no moral compass.
Yup.
well said, Nord.
Thanks Nord, fucking for fun is fine as long as both people are available
…?
I think this is much more common with women than men. I doubt that my ex-wife’s AP would care much if we called him a slut/whore/scumbag. He might even get a kick out of it, given how society celebrates the male stud.
I just think it’s pathetic. Of all the available women out there, the best that my wife’s AP could manage was someone who was already married, and clearly of poor character. That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of his manhood, IMO.
Well, he IS a creepy tail-chaser.
Eventually it catches up with them. They get to the point of their lives where they are just pathetic, and nobody respects them. They’re not so “studly” any more. They’re just lame.
Yes, I know this. He had a girlfriend and son in another state (whom he later married for 3 whole months). So, I’m aware he’s not someone who’d want your daughter to marry.
I just find it…well…fascinating, how the cheater mind works. I take full responsibility for all of my attractions to less-than-stellar women. I learned from those experiences, and made a better “picker,” although apparently still not good enough because I was able to be fooled!
But…my ex-wife’s “picker” was even worse than mine. She purposefully chose to engage in a long-term relationship (aka, affair) with someone who was clearly not going to reciprocate in the way she hoped.
Ah…well…as CL reminds us, there’s no point in trying to figure out the cheater mind. It’s a rabbit hole that leads to a black box that leads to the yellow brick road that leads to the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. None of it makes sense. If it did, then we’d have a much easier time accepting it.
Funny story ( as funny as stories get with these assholes) – we have a protection order, and had a huge scare last week, when a man who looked like exH showed up in front of one of the kids’ schools at the end of the day. We have a system in place, as he is not a nice guy, so we called the school, the police – our whole system. So I’m talking to the principal at my daughter’s school, and she’s pulling up exH’s picture online, and says, “Oh, so an average looking middle aged man with a receding hairline.” (sorry men, this isn’t meant to be mean to you all…). And in the middle of this total trauma, I start laughing. ExH left us when he was in his early 30’s, and he considers himself to be smokin’ hot – the kind of guy NO woman can resist. So even the idea of him being “middle aged”, and this young lady principal not even thinking for a second that he was attractive, was so funny.
And the guy that was spotted turned out to be someone who looks eerily like exH, but was not him. Happy ending (except for 24 hours of trauma for the kids and me) after all
What pissed my ex husband off was telling him, when I was booting his useless ass out for the final time, that he was going to “be my bitch!” Schmoopie can have his broke ass, but that “bitch” works for me now!! Bwahahahaha! He wanted to act like a little coward bitch, then that’s what he will be to me! Lord he was pissed!!
“Snap out of the narcissistic dream- you are hurting innocent people. ”
Thanks Tracy.
It really does hurt.
Many women told me that if I were x, y, z Ex wouldn’t wander.
Men told me, “A man is happy with sex and food. ”
Ummm, no.
Some jerks wander no matter what; some men are never happy.
I know what I paid for. Trashley stole it. Pirate’s booty comes with a curse. Little Thief be warned.
In every aspect save one–my kids–I take great satisfaction from the fact that my ex is still with the final OW. “Curse” doesn’t even begin to describe the wonders in store for her.
Stronger, thank you. That’s just what I needed to read today.
And about wife-blaming: I got the whorefrost! (You know, everyone turns their back on you & leaves you in the cold… ).
I don’t know how sluts get treated, but I know how wives and mothers get treated, and it was cold.
Friend–I got the whorefrost too!
what a brilliant term…my crapweasel plowed the earth, erm, carefully so “everyone” knew I was a mean crazy bitch. O’rellY?? So not.
But now that I’m coming out of the deepfreeze, and i know who my actual friends are, things are so much warmer, and cozier.
Well said… I especially liked your passage about victim blaming, because of course, Mr. Hanecita, his slutty new girlfriend, and Mr. Hanecita’s family dished that out by the Imperial Gallon…
Poor Mr. Hanecita was compelled to cheat because of Hanecita, her behaviors, her attitude, etc. Mr. Hanecita couldn’t have felt more entitled to have what he wanted, when and where he wanted it. Slutty new girlfriend echoed the justifications for cheating that Mr. Hanecita was spewing, and then embellished. Mr. Hanecita’s family stood behind their boy, well, because blood is thicker than morals. Daughter/Sister-in-Law…Hhumphf…did that make the girlfriend the Slut-inLaw?
“blood is thicker than morals”, good one!
The article by Jessica Darling is prefaced by claiming, “I’m actually a wonderful person, kind, considerate, motivated,etc..” She then implies that her being an other woman unfairly wipes out her good qualities by society standards and slut shaming her. She’s a good person, who happens to sleep with married men and it’s not her problem and it’s the married men who are to blame.
Sorry, Jessica Darling, you are not a wonderful person, kind or considerate, and if you do have motivation it’s ego driven and pathetic by sleeping with married men.
If someone likes to drown puppies, but then claims to be kind, wonderful, and considerate….well yeah, you’re a crap person if you believe that your awesome qualities makes you a “good puppy killer”.
Jessica Darling, I think you have more problem than being a slut…your article proves it.
I think it’s funny that Jessica Darling’s “current guy” has cheated on her. Guess she’s ” not woman enough ” to keep him faithful.
It is a difficult situation. You do want to blame the AP. Truth will always be it was my wife who allowed this to occur and is 100 percent responsible. In my case the OP was a 26 year old male. He was not married but for the 3 years they were making the occasional sex romp, he was engaged to be married. Making my spouse the other woman who was aware of his intent to marry this woman. My wife even had sex in what she considered to be her bed. I actually feel very sorry for her, she was totally blindsided never having a clue this was going on. It is beyond my ability to understand how someone could be so self serving to do this horrible act not only against me, but to innocent people.
DavidB–it is incomprehensible as to how people could knowingly do so much emotional damage to other people, including children.
And while being the other woman….. the fiance has a young child who has spent the last three years with the other man…. my wife was aware of the child… just cant wrap my head around all of it… I could never inflict that much intentional pain on so many.
I hope you informed the fiance and saver her from the asshole she is going to marry!
She is aware with all the details….. hope she makes a wise decision.
I agree DavidB. Only a very self-involved, selfish person would do something like that.
So often I wish I knew what lies my cheater told the other woman. She knew he was married with children. We weren’t a secret. She knew he was excepted home every night. She knew enough to only contact him at work. However, she felt fully entitled to insert herself into my marriage and family. I am sure he fed her the lines of “I’m not in love with her anymore”, “we live like roommates”, “we are going to divorce when the kids are older”, blah, blah, blah. Now anyone with a morsel of self respect would have mentioned that he tie up his loose ends before moving forward. Well, that didn’t happen.
I wonder if she knew he was climbing out of her bed to come to MC. I wonder if she knew that “she was pressuring him to move to quickly”. I wonder if she heard him cry saying “he missed his old life”. I wonder if she cared that his daughter’s grades tanked her junior year of high school because of the stress. I wonder if she knew that her insertion would result in his son going NC. I wonder if she knew that his friends would think she is a slut. I wonder if she knew that his family would walk away from him. I wonder if she knew that his daughter would never want to meet her. I wonder what story he created to make this all seem normal and how she continues to buy it.
I blame him. He broke our vows and destroyed our family, however she was a long for the ride and didn’t seem to give a shit. I do have intense hatred for this woman and perhaps that is unfair. I know this should all be directed at him, however I still have to deal with him, still play nice, so it is hard to release my full blown hatred at him. However, deep in my heart I pray that she somehow dumps his ass and leaves him grappling in pain. Maybe then he would get a clue what he has put everyone through.
These people just don’t have souls. I’m sorry… fool with a married man who has CHILDREN.. what kind of person does that? A piece of gutter trash. Your H like so many others destroyed his family for a piece of gutter trash. I am sure at some point Karma will pay them both a visit. Relationships built on lies rarely last long term. I hate my MOW too and if I saw her, I can’t say what I might do or say. She’s the wort of all humanity.. a traitor to her gender and to decency.
Honey, you can have him.. good luck! That should be your mantra!! Stay strong.
My XW not only banged a guy, but she brought him into our children’s lives. what kind of parent exposes his or her kids to the type of person willing to bang a married person? That is un believably irresponsible. My kids could have been molested by this guy.
The sad thing, is, she doesn’t care. Hard to believe, isn’t it? But she doesn’t care. She wants what she wants. And she is special, and so is he.
These people are really fucked up.
Not only did my ex get involved with his married grad student, he moved in with her parents after we separated. He traded our family for her family. It’s beyond my comprehension. He says her family is “more supportive of his interests” than we were. The weekend after he left, I found out he went to a birthday party at her family’s house. My ex spent $300 on liquor for the party. Her family was saying how much fun he was at the party on social media, which is how I found out. So he walks out and devastates his family, but is the life of the party for hers. As far as I’m concerned, they can have him. Good luck.
Oh boy, Lyn….our narcs are similar. My STBX left and son moved in to his college student OW’s parent paid apartment, drives her car and is allowing her parents to pay for him to go on vacation. Wtf is that? Are you not embarrassed for yourself? And how do you, as a grown man with a young child who clearly had some form or a previous successful life convince your girlfriends family to pay your way through life? And lastly, how do they not want more for their daughter?
STBX does stuff like supplying the alcohol for a party, too. They love to make themselves look like the life of the party….the dude I was living with surely was no party…
*soon, not son
I am tired of people making excuses for their shit ass behavior. I have some sympathy for the OW/OM who don’t KNOW their partners are married.. but as in my case, the MOW slut is chumping her Husband too, and that is so in MOST cases. Most time the OW/OM know exactly what they are doing.. they are just too delusional to care.
They all SUCK.
I blamed OW 100% for the first few years because she had a history of using married men to help her climb the career ladder. Our marriage was the 4th one she destroyed during the 7 years it took her to get her PhD.
These days I blame XH. He could have said “No,” just like I’ve said no to the countless married men who have hit on me over the years. You’re right, CL: He invited her into the marriage. If not her, it would be someone else.
Why blame her and not your H, initially, Red? I am curious as to the mental gymnastics that must take.
I’m not answering for Red, but I know that I initially felt that my STBX still had some honor and felt love for me. It was so hard to understand that he deliberately violated his vows and my trust. It’s a bit easier to believe that SHE tempted him in his moment of weakness, that SHE stalked him like prey.
The sad truth is that HE could have stopped the affair in its tracks by saying “no.” Or by effectively saying no by putting up clear boundaries.
Thankfully, I came across both ChumpLady.com and some texts he’d made to OW. I realized he was cold and calculating, and that he had zero interest in me other than in how I was able to keep house for him.
Glad you figured that out, kb. Not glad you had to go through this.
“… I know that I initially felt that my STBX still had some honor and felt love for me. It was so hard to understand that he deliberately violated his vows and my trust. It’s a bit easier to believe that SHE tempted him in his moment of weakness, that SHE stalked him like prey. The sad truth is that HE could have stopped the affair in its tracks by saying “no.” Or by effectively saying no by putting up clear boundaries.”
KB you nailed. Two weeks after dday when I was literally losing my mind, I attempted to contact the OWhore. She worked with the ex & was a subordinate. I got her voicemail & hung up. About an hour later, ex called me at my work screaming & asking what I was trying to do by contacting her. He told me that she had come into his office & said that if he saw her any where at work he was to turn around & leave her alone. Did I expose something was a secret at work? Bet he never thought I’d ever do that. By the way, I never believed his story about her “reprimanding” him.
KB, I also thought that my husband still had honor and felt some love for me. I was delusional. The only thing he cared about was kibbles, and no matter how many I showered on him, it was NEVER enough.
Next time I’ll look for someone a lot less needy…
Arnold – OW had already had a hand in ending 3 other marriages in the dept by sleeping with married professors, and I couldn’t believe XH had fallen under her spell. She was the most egotistical, entitled little thing I’d ever met, and I was determined to make XH “see the light” before our family became her latest casualty. It didn’t work. I was the one kicked to the curb and off they went to Never-Never Land.
It was over within 3 years. They cheated on each other, and now she has herself a very nice position at UCLA – one that she secured on her back, legs in the air – while XH has a new wife. So much for true love!
We get quite the education going through this, Red. The more trusting one is, the more they play us. These folks, as another poster remarked, truly are soulless.
Agreed! I thought XH was better than that, but he wasn’t. Too bad it took me 3 decades to figure that out…. :/
I agree, Arnold, Chumps are an educated lot-though there are things I wish I could unlearn. Looking back I can honestly say I did my best and you are right we were such trusting innocents…. My ex wasn’t forthcoming about much (red flag #244) but his actions were all along telling me WHO he was. I know now to pay even more attention to my gut. On Dday, I knew two things immediately: 1) my marriage was over, and 2) It wasn’t worth saving because I could not fix what I did not own. Leave a cheater, gain a life indeed.
I would love to take this excellent post and ask you to tie it into the Feb 25th HOW TO LEAVE SOMEONE, HOW TO BE LEFT post which suggests WE do things with dignity and ask y’all to give me some advice. Please. The OW is all over my little city and she shops at my grocery store now. What do I say or do when we have that accidental run in? She is 20 years younger. She is a slut and she knew he was married and she made herself available for that INVITE. She has no children. She is a sweet little atheletic thang. She has the sexy apartment downtown. I have the three kids (blessing but exhausting), a mortgage and reality. I am seeing past the shit sandwich now. The reality is also that I know seeing her that close up at some point will STING. Please help me be prepared so that I don’t say/do the wrong thing. THANKS Chump Nation!
OM is younger than me. I just avoid the guy. That is about all you can do. Just try not to encounter the OW.
Say NOTHING to her. Do NOT get dragged into a situation where you lose. There is NOTHING you can say to her that matters to her. Remember: never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty, and the pig likes it.
If you see her, you turn the other way and leave. And know that her prize is a second-hand ex-husband who is so shitty, and such a coward, that he abandoned his family.
And if you cry, it means you have a soul. She is missing hers. There is just a black spot keeping its place.
Princess, you say NOTHING and carry on about your day. Walk right past her, don’t mean mug her, nothing her. They want you to get upset and shout and make a scene. They can then justify how “crazy” you are. The first time I saw the OW it sucked. It stung. It hurt like hell. But, I survived it. You will too. I promise.
I see the OW frequently out shopping. The first time I saw her after I found out about the affair, I had a panic attack and ended up barfing in the bathroom. I got so freaked out I started to shake just driving by the store. The next time, she was in the card section and I decided I would confront her by saying “I don’t think they make a card that says ‘sorry I fucked your husband right under your nose for 4 years!'” but she ran out of the store before I could say a word (which is good in retrospect). OW’s husband doesn’t yet know (I want to postpone her being my kids step mom for as long as possible and she decided not to leave her husband for mine) so her sham of a marriage is still very much intact. As a result, now I walk into that store with my head held high and holding all HER cards. I see her now and just ignore her, while she leaves her cart and runs.
My therapist recommended I rehearse what I might say, in case it ever happens (I will try to avoid but in case I cannot), so that **when I look back on it later, I will feel that I acted with dignity.** This has been key for me, and I am prepared with a number of superficial remarks about the weather, in case I cannot gracefully extricate myself immediately (Plan A, after avoiding contact entirely… Actually, I think THAT’S Plan A…).
Act if she’s invisible. In fact, imagine she is invisible – because there are children’s paddling pools with more depth than that skank.
Being thought of as invisible pisses off narcs more than anything else, and if shes the special kind she’ll create a scene. In which case, all you have to say is “I don’t talk to whores” and walk off (of course watching your back that she doesn’t throw a punch at you).
Give a (wo)man enough rope and they’ll hang themselves. And thats exactly what that scene does.
Sometimes when I see xH at a school event, or such, I am shocked by how old he’s gotten. I think it’s stress–hasn’t been kind to him.
Then I remember the Chump Lady’s proverbial “Turd in the Punch Bowl,” and it makes me laugh inside. I think of the Chump Nation backing me, and all my friends and family who back me, and it makes me feel strong.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=turd+in+the+punch+bowl
OW and xH are not worthy of any air between us, not one second of my time. They are vulgar and vile and I will not speak to them. I will ignore them. Silence can be sooooooooooo uncomfortable, let them squirm.
I think as women, culturally, we often feel obligated to say something, to fill a void. But we don’t owe these parasites anything, really. Best to understand that, and keep your head high. I might make a face as though I’ve smelled something revolting, but I will say nothing. I might pull out my cell phone and text a trusted friend, but I will say nothing to the vile POS’s that xH and OW are. Why should I risk making an ass of myself?
Turd in the punch bowl! Ewwwwww!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjn0Yw0mxuk
Bahahaha!
Thank you for your advice!
MOW is 17 years younger than I am. She works in the same part of town where I live and work, so it’s possible I could run into her. In the past, I would often run out to pick something up in sweats and no makeup. I decided after DDay that I would make more effort, because I don’t want to run into her wishing I had combed my hair. Making sure I look my best also lifted my spirits in the abyss after DDay. So while I’m not saying you should do a full makeup and spike heels if you run out to buy cat food, it gives me confidence to know I am looking my 63-year-old best.
I hold my head high, even in funny clothes, and do not give them any more of my one precious life. Cordial no. They are people I don’t know, people I don’t want to know, and people who don’t matter. Do not for one second waste any more of your precious life on disordered. On the other note you need to make YOU your number one priority. Do new things, live your life, and take great big giant baby steps! Every day you should get out and around others as that will balance you out. And remember twenty years younger will never make up what is missing. And don’t you have integrity. Best wishes on your journey, PAPrincess.
Slut shaming does not equal victim blaming. I believe people who have been assaulted and sexually abused …against ther will and or manipulated into a shamed based relationship are victims. Period.
Sluts… Sluts seek and persue people to have sex with. You a slut when you actively persue people to have sex with regardless of the consequences… And truth is they dont really care what the consequences are… It was part of the game. Most sluts dont stick around as they have to continue on their slutty way. They dont want your hairy backed soccer coach dad… It was just part of the game. Sluts want you to keep your hairy backed soccer coach dad. They dont want your life… They think your life sucks. Sluts should not complain when they are slut shamed. It goes with the territory.
Whores, whores are your typical homewreckers who engage in sexual activity with some quid pro quo arrangement… They want something ( your husband/ BF, money, your house, your life) and will continue in the relationship with the idea they are getting the prize. A whore will get territorial and eventually feel they are entitled to the prize. Because the whore wants to stop being a whore and morph into an acceptable person via her newly acquired partner. This is the whore’s dream. Whores have plucked you out of the picture and are planning their wedding with your husband.
Sluts can turn into whores…usually around their 30 th birthday… When father time is reminding them they cant be sluts forever…so they try their hand at whoring… And now find your hairy backed soccer coach attractive.
Do I hate Tweeny? No. I hate that she contributed to the demise of my family. She could be any whore. I dont know what was fed to her. I dont know what role she played in the Idiots docu- drama. Thats the script that he fed her. She plays her part…. Like he wants her to.
She told me … Via text of course… ‘ dont be a victim’ all full of her 20 year old self. All I said to her was ” if you have the courage and the integrity to come and talk to me when you are 47… I will listen. Until then little girl, everything your juvenile mouth spews is just pinterest slogans. When you have lived your life and invested in something other than yourself , only then will I listen to your justfications of your active participation in the death of my family. ”
She texted ” I am REALLY sorry. ” I said ” You are a slow learner. Please re read what I just sent you.” Never heard from her again.
Act like a whore…. Be prepared to be called out. Act like a slut…. Same. There is shame in their game and at the end of the day it is they who have to look in the mirror. When the image is distorted… They have a hard time identitfying who they really are… Help them out. ” WHORE”
You gave a great response to her, The Clip. Bravo!
My hero!
BOOM!
The Clip, what you wrote is awesome. I’ve been calling OW the skank, but she’s really the whore. Thank you for your clarity.
OMG, that was brilliant!!!!!
Hahaha, she just got owned by her self-interest. And even then, she tried to turn it back to how its all about her. Well done for shutting that shit down!
I totally blame my STBX, he was the one who was married and had a familu. The OW was an equal participant in it but she wasn’t married to me, she was the one who had to explain her behavior to her long time boyfriend and her boss (they used the PT office she managed as their affair “home base”).
But I do consider her a morally corrupt person with poor impulse control and a cold heart, because that’s what she’s proven to be.
I’m less concerned about someone being a “slut” and more focused on them having no morality or respect. Hell, I can’t guarantee this chick even was a whore, she may very well have a low sexual partner number but they might predominantly be men in committed relationships. And that’s exactly where my issue lies. I’m all for consenting adults sleeping around and getting some strange so long as all parties involved know the story. I don’t agree with hurting innocent people in the process.
I’m amazed by the people who get turned on by the thought of getting a committed person into an affair with them, they must have a screw or 50 loose brcause if I ever learned that a man I was dating was married I’d go postal AND I’d inform his wife so that she at least got the full truth. We all know the chump never gets full disclosure…
Truth.
My ex husband is to blame for the hurt, betrayal and lying. He ultimately is the one who made vows to me and broke them. He knew the pain he could potentially cause. Not just to me but to his two daughters and he did not place any value on us. His fault….his blame. Now, as far as the OW goes (who he is still with now), she was married, had children of her own and knew that my ex husband was married and had children as well. She hurt me too. She hurt her husband, her children and my children. Just like my ex husband did. She is not exempt from taking blame for the pain just because I did not know her. She helped make my life a living hell. They both did. I DO put blame on her. She knew it would hurt people too but did it anyway.
“My ex husband is to blame for the hurt, betrayal and lying. He ultimately is the one who made vows to me and broke them. He knew the pain he could potentially cause. Not just to me but to his young son and he did not place any value on us. His fault….his blame” OMG-THIS!!!!
There is no blame that he can place on me for any part of that.
I can’t slut shame the hookers or massage parlor workers-he bought & paid their services (they don’t care if the guy is married or not-it’s all about the $$)
I can’t shame the porn of Craigslist hookups-they are all just nameless, faceless body parts (Again, being married does not come into play)
Stbx did tell me after DDay at the Asian hooker palace that he KNEW I wouldn’t be ok with him going to places like that & HE STILL WENT ANYWAYS. BINGO!!!! There it is…………..he doesn’t care about anyone but himself (and his pecker!)
Had he told me that when we met, I could have saved myself 18 wasted years!
What a douche bag!!
One thing I never had trouble with was putting responsibility for cheating on my ex. IMO he was the one that made a vow to me, not her. I don’t care whether she came onto him first, the problem is that he CHOSE to get involved with her. Sometimes my friends would say “You should give that woman a piece of your mind” but I would always answer “she’s not the problem, he is.” To this day I don’t really care about her. In my mind she was secondary to the main issue, which was his decision to get involved with her in the first place.
“One thing I never had trouble with was putting responsibility for cheating on my ex. IMO he was the one that made a vow to me, not her”
I’ve always had a problem with this kind of thinking. Our spouse DID make a vow to us, but to me, it doesn’t mean that the AP is any LESS culpable. If the AP KNEW that our spouse was married, the AP had NO BUSINESS interfering with that relationship. To me, the AP isn’t just driving the get-a-way car; (s)he is actively participating in the robbery itself. (S)he isn’t only an ‘accomplice’; (s)he is also actively committing a ‘crime’.
If a man has sex with a married woman, he is an adulterer, regardless of HIS marital status. And likewise, if a woman has sex with married man, she is an adulteress, regardless of HER marital status. If our (male) spouse is an adulterer, that makes his affair partner is an adulteress. There is no ‘lesser’ title for *her*…
…which is why I see them as both EQUALLY to blame.
Oops. Hit send too soon…
Note to Lyn–I meant no offense to YOU by quoting what YOU wrote. It’s just that I’ve seen so many people who have this attitude. It’s in this thread along with threads on other forums. Once I got to your post, I felt compelled to chime in.
If a priest and a ‘Joe Average’ robbed a bank, would we hold Joe Average to a *lesser* standard? Probably not. Would we hold the priest to a *higher* standard? Well, maybe…
But the LAW doesn’t see it that way. The law doesn’t really care what your profession or ‘status’ is. The law is supposed to look at the CRIME; and not the person* who committed it. (* obviously, takes certain aspects of a person into account, such as the age of the ‘criminal’)
In my book, the affair partner–married or not– is just as blameworthy as my spouse, unless the affair partner had no knowledge that my spouse was married.
there is no male equivalent to slut… Because it is applauded when men bagged many women. He is is stud. Blame culture and society for the male prowess associated with sexual conquest ..she on the other hand is a slut… One should wear the slut bagde proudly since it is the make equivalent to stud.
Now cheaters… And their partner of choice… Albeit the slut or whore are a different breed. One can be a stud or a slut in ones singleness. You are single and want to bag as many people as you want… I say have at it. Abuse your self.
Once married/attached you in a whole other category. You are now a cheater. Cheater not gender specific. Its a blanket term for actions. Male cheaters in my opinion have a progression or a hierarchy. Starts with jerk> asshole> douchebag> motherfucker> scumbag. The Scumbag…’ A low life human being who is as worthless as a used rubber.’ Thank you Urban Dictionary.
I think you may find a subsection of males who do feel promiscuity is a badge of honor, just like there is a subset of women who feel hypergamous power banging is something to be proud of. Weird people. Sex to them is like taking a good dump, nothing more.
A subset? I think you mean a majority. Men do not view sex the same way women do.
They see is as a conquest. Proof that they rock. Women have to have babies so we connect it with love. If we didn’t expect them to understand, we would probably avoid a lot of pain. OW try to get around the pain by being sly, but I think they eventually get hit with the pain too.
The men that don’t do that had values instilled in them as children. Or maybe the’re just better. Either way, they are not rampant. I’d say a 4:1 ratio women with hearts to men with hearts.
i have nothing but contempt for home wreckers of either sex, cheaters or APs (they’re all the same, really.)
The cheating is always just the last straw. Sometimes it takes a while to realize that. But over time it becomes more apparent–cheating is sometimes only the most obvious sign of what a really shitty person they’ve been all along.
Truth is, the OW in my situation did me a favor by taking a thoroughly unlikable coward off my hands. I no longer give love and support to a creep who barely feigns love for me, who not-so-secretly wishes to be anywhere else, who has no capacity to be the man of his family.
Buh-bye. Adios. May they enjoy their disgusting life. They really are quite the match. Who knew?
And, yet, I will never forgive either of them for hurting my children the way they did.
If either of them should feel shame, they don’t. I’ll never really understand why, because I don’t think the way they think. Their values are completely different from mine. We do not see the world through the same lenses. I spent a good deal of time and energy attempting to get them in touch with shame–to no avail. I misunderstood their capacity for it.
Some people are just very broken. It’s not poetic, not romantic–it’s horrific and grotesque. And it’s made all the worse by the fact that they LOOK normal, by appearances, But that’s only because we project our morals onto them, and suppose that they have any morals at all.
My best friend–never married, no children–recently said that I should not hold OW accountable at all for what my xH did. She said that he probably lied to OW and told her that The Marriage Was Over Anyway, and that he was Only Staying For the Kids. He must have told her how Unbearable My Wife Is, and that it had All Been a Mistake.
I called bullshit on that one. I told her that OW knew he had kids, and didn’t care to verify what he was telling her. She encouraged him to lie, not just to me, but to his children. She was thrilled when my sons’ hearts were shattered. She profited from my family’s demise, and she’d bet that she would.
Of course, his actions indicated that he WAS done with the marriage, and that he WAS available–but neither of them cared who they hurt. That might have been a red flag to a woman of character, but then, APs, by definition, are lacking.
Obviously, I put all the blame on xH for allowing a twat troll into our family, for conspiring with her to blow it all up. And, as I am fond of saying, there’s a troll under every rock. There are plenty just like her, if that’s what you want. How was I to know the xH would walk away from our family, and into the arms of a lazy, low-class, entitled alcoholic? How could I know that he wouldn’t find someone like her to be as repulsive and pathetic as she is? How was I to know he would throw everything away for such a laughable character?
Well? Now I know.
My best bet is to stay away from people like them. And you can bet that I do.
I”m with you–if OW/OM knows the person is married, and knows there are kids involved, they are moral scum and deserve to be treated accordingly.
Amen, sister!
Right on, Tempest.
Great post, Miss Sunshine.
“And, yet, I will never forgive either of them for hurting my children the way they did.”
This exactly!
I agree Miss Sunshine! This is why my ex is now referred to as “the tool” by his own siblings and I refer to him as “my bitch”! He got away with taking zero from our marriage and his “hump buddy” has to figure out how to pay his way now! I find it very amusing! They truly did fuck themselves in the end!! Their vision of sailing off into the sunset probably isn’t as blissful as they had imagined right about now!
Miss Sunshine….you said ‘ for a laughable character’ they have to find someone who matches where they are in life. People dont bite unless they find something that resonnates with them… The OW is just the shell of who he really is and what he thinks he deserves. Anyone with integrity would question him. He needs her to feel normal.
Oh man, this isn’t strictly topic related, but I will never forget a former co-worker who may or may not have been screwing my former married boss. If they did, he came to regret it. This woman was almost Glenn Close crazy. At one point, she charged him with sexual harassment, but in a letter said she only did it so he would pay attention to her!
His wife actually called to ask if I thought he was having an affair with her. I told her the truth–that I had never seen him act any way but professionally with her, but that I thought she was a predator. She would practically muscle in between me and his desk if I was standing there talking to him. Reminded me of a
labrador retriever insinuating itself between two people for attention. She would leave for the day, but kept finding reasons to come back, at least as long as I or any other women were there.
At the deposition, I saw the letters, the cards, the weird little gifts. They weren’t just soulmates, they had actually been together in former incarnations. He was enslaved by society’s rules that forced him to stay with his wife and children, on and on and on for pages. I just realized that she didn’t include any blatant sexual references (thank God!). But there might have been other things he didn’t show us. Who knows?
This was before all the social media, so she did have some limits.
He was sleazy enough in other matters so that no one would have been surprised if he had done it at least once. She was young, attractive, willing. She even had the same name as his wife. Convenient, that. But after the drama and her dismissal, she transferred her attentions to a guy with a business right next door, so she might have just been nucking futz.
Great article! In addition to the gender bias observed in slut shaming women without male equivalence, men are often absolved from cheating on account of their dangly bits. One internet comment on infidelity that caught my eye recently was this:
“I think it depends what you mean by cheating. Don’t forget that men & women are different and cannot be treated the same, esp. in sexual matters. Cheating on the part of a man means having a second relationship which threatens or compromises the principle relationship, i.e., he is likely to replace his first partner with the second. If it is merely a one-off fling it is hardly likely to end the primary relationship, is it? But if a woman has such a relationship with another person she is contaminated by it and the primary relationship is corrupted whether it breaks up or not. It is inherent resulting from the differences in structure between men and women. D’you get my point?”
These archaic, historic views are terrifying when you see them scrawled on a website as though someone sent a computer back to the Middle Ages. My take home message from it all is that people will use reasoning whatever they want (logic based or otherwise) to justify their own behaviour, denigrate other’s behaviour (often similar to their own!) if it might bring them harm, and generally elevate themselves above their own code of conduct. These are the narcissists that we see here day in day out who’s stories make our jaws drop in disbelief at the absolute hypocrisy and crazy making games they play.
Where’d that quote come from ? Esther Perel?
I am on a role today….
I have a friend who is the OW. Are you shocked? I think she has paid her dues. Her life sucks. She has been a great resource to me…. and admitts now that she is in her 50’s that she paid the price in more than one way. Her story as told to me is the typical intern…he is 20 yeras older than her and was at the top of his field. He was well into his second marriage with a wife who had babies rabies( couldnt have children of her own and did everything possible to get pregnant to the point of obession) They adopted two children and she became very involved with the children. In comes my friend who hangs on every word of this man… And of course ‘ it’ happened. She said she didnt feel remorseful because he constantly told her how he was ignored… And essentially the bank roll for his wife and children. She of course fell into the role of savior and a year into their affair he left his wife and two young children. He was a well known celebrity and involved in many social circles. Wife was No chump. Upon discovery she used his celebrity to push forward a very profitable divorce for her. She also thrusted upon my friend two very young children for every weekend of 10 years. She now had a instant family. The wife also received a large alimony check and child support. My friend said she took another job so that she could help pay the rent as they could not afford a home. She said her life went in a whole different direction. She was now the babysitter as her schmoopie had to be on assignment. She did eventually get pregnant but was disappointed when her then almost 50 year old husband didnt really want anything to do with the baby…he was just starting to enjoy that his two other children were getting independant. Fast forward 16 years and the first son is incarcerated and thenother child drug addicted. They spent money with lawyers and counselors… And drained what was ever in the retirement account. Her own son now a HS drop out and involved in drugs. She speaks about her schmoopie as ‘ useless and uninvolved’ and in the 20 plus years together they have never had a vacation.
Is she a bad person? No. Did the karma bus come along and run over her life… Yup. And she knows it.
Not a bad person, eh? Somehow, I don’t see her getting the Nobel peace prize.
Nope no nobel peace prize…. But she aint a serial killer either. She gets it.
That’ s good. Did she make restitution?
I know a woman who was an OW for years. Her “true love” told her that he was just staying until his kid graduated from HS. He took her on vacations! Went to her work functions as her date when she is in the same general field as the wife. He was very out there with his behavior. She talked all the time about when he would finally leave and get a divorce. Graduation came…and he said, “Thanksgiving weekend. Be ready and we will go out and celebrate.” She got dressed up and waited and waited. Of course, he never came. So she packed up the scrapbook of all their travels and sent that to the wife.
The cheater is still with his wife. The OW got her act together and found a single man to date and marry. But, oh, how delusional she was. How much pain her willingness to participate in betraying this woman she had met but didn’t really know. And how convinced she was for years that he really loved her and she was the better woman. But as we know, that pick-me thinking has nothing to do with why cheaters do what they do. They cheat because they can. Because they are entitled to cake and kibbles and whatever they want.
Wow. Chumplady. It looks like we had very similar discussions this weekend. I was attempting to explain this on Instagram in response to Amanda de Cadenet’s proclamation that ML was turning “trauma into activism”. Ha. She is hardly a victim!
The OW does the “pick me dance ” by acting like a slut. Sex in secret and sexting on the phone. Sexy lingerie while we chumps without any knowledge of the affair act like regular wives. The OW try to make themselves feel special, but if they were dating instead of having an affair, they would not just go to a hotel or in the office and fuck, they would go to dinner or a movie and have a regular relationship then have sex, and I bet the “kink” wouldn’t start off in the beginning, of a dating relationship. Affairs are all about being a slut to win the man. The sad thing is, when the affair is over, the OW just wants to become a regular wife just like the chump. Poor OM just stuck with a family and financial disaster, and for what? A slut who wants to be a wife.
LivingMyLife, THIS! Exactly! I would just love to be a fly on the wall when this happens. I have seen it actually and it’s not pretty! The “OW now wife #2 “sits around bitching about his kids from his first marriage not appreciating her and her lavish gifts to them. And her “lover” is now 10 + years older than her and just recently suffered a heart attack. Now she HAS to work and the “glue child” she insisted on having has to sit around and wait for somebody else to play baseball with and be the daddy that the old guy can’t be anymore! It’s truly sad! They fuck themselves in the end!
Love and adore this site and CL who is a lifesaver! But…. not a fan of the ubiquitous abusive language: ‘slut, whore, bitch…’. It jars with me and I don’t like listening to dehumanising language… that’s how wars start. Never any need for it. Sorry but there it is.
We’ve also got bastard, fucktard, fuck buddy, asshole, douchebag, crap weasel…
Infidelity is raw and the language reflects that. There is only one word I censor around here and that is “cunt.” (And people give me grief about that.)
Chumps have been humiliated in the most intimate of ways, and I don’t fault their anger or name calling. It’s not for everyone, I get it. Most everyone eventually moves toward Meh. That’s the goal anyway. There are sites with nicer language, but I’m not one of them. Unrepentantly potty-mouthed here.
How about “Gunt”?
My fave is “slunt”
I saw this site but initially avoided it because I am never very comfortably with anger. But when it all went down, I decided I could be depressed or I could be realistic, and realistically, this was not a nice thing to do to me. I don’t want to dance to win over someone who claimed to love me. If he changed his mind, okay, but don’t expect me to play adversary about it.
So he devalued and dropped me because I wouldn’t pretend any of it was okay. I need a release, it was ten years. I won’t bother to release on him or her, or her, or her. That would just entertain them. So I am visiting this site until I can get my shit together, forget about him and find other interests. If I happen to call someone a “crack whore”, so sorry, he said she smoked crack. He admitted he had too. He said I was supposed to stop him, as if that was even possible.
I don’t think being sympathetic to your plight will help you not do the bad things you do. I did love you, so you have that, but I have a life, and I’m not going down with your ship.
Yes but this is the *best* site. I am sorry for complaining but I thought carefully before posting because those particular terms used against women do not sit well with me. I think it’s because ‘slut, whore, bitch’ have been used by the patriarchy to judge, demean and belittle women for so long… It seems to me the majority of chumps on here are female, and in straight relationships so will have been cheated on by a man, lied to by a man, let down and abused by a man… so why channel such a large share of the blame towards other women? Are we *really* going to blame other women when our husbands cheat?
Why do we use sexually-charged terms like ‘slut’ and ‘whore’? Could it be because of internalised misogyny? Because of a religious hangover? I’m no fucking expert (and a pottymouth too you’ll observe) but isn’t cake-eating a direct product of the society’s intrinsic male entitlement? Language evolves and plays a huge role in progressive gender politics, I guess I just wanted to flag that up. I’m aware that I’m sounding like a complete arsehole, btw, and in the minority so I’ll wrap it up there, I think. Don’t hate me – you saved my life and I bought your book! xxx
I agree with your objection to the terms used to degrade women and enforce our lesser status. I think CL made it pretty clear she doesn’t think slut shaming is appropriate. She objecting to a woman who fucks married men using slut shaming as a defense for having no ethics. I also object to promiscuous labels for a woman, that bothered me more in this post, it’s not a label men get. I am proud to say that I’ve been called a slut, promiscuous, whore and cunt but I don’t let that bother me. I enjoy sex, I have never knowingly had it with a person who is in a committed relationship. I am not ashamed of fucking for fun or fucking for love. I don’t respect anyone who can’t understand the difference between living an ethical life that makes you happy and living a life that is predicated on what some asshole has degrees is the moral way. I live my life based on first, do no harm and that is all I can do
A guy I bartended with years ago used the word “gash”, I thought that was a bit harsh (but better than the “C” word) …. but his wife had been a cheater and he was a bit miffed. And I must admit… I called OW and when she didn’t have the balls to answer the phone…. i left her a very colorful voice mail and I absolutely used the “C” word in reference to her. Couldn’t help myself.
In linguistic terms, the “C” word is offensive as an insult because it reduces a woman to her major sex organ–and that echoes a long, global history of women being used for sex often against their will or in a situation where they have no economic or social power. So for a man to reduce a woman’s identity to her sex organ has some things in common with the use of the N word by whites to people of color. But think of how often men are called “pricks” and “dicks” and they aren’t insulted at all because that sex organ is not associated with rape or conquest or being subservient. The big insult, historically, for a man is to be called a “bastard,” because that names him as “fatherless” and implies his mother was promiscuous and he has no property or rights. Or a “M*****F*****”” to hit the incest taboo.
I can’t use the C word for those reasons, but for a while, in my own head, I called MOW the “bitch-faced C.”
Wait, guys being called picks or dicks are not insulted? How do you figure that?
Next time I am in court, think I will call the judge a ” prick” and see what happens. Or, my physician or priest,” Bless me dick for I have sinned….
Our language shows that we are ambivalent about male sexuality as a stand-in for power. Calling a man a “dick” is generally an insulted. Saying he’s got “balls” is usually a compliment. But we aren’t ambivalent about female sexuality–we use terms like “cunt” solely as insults. Calling a woman “bitchy” is never nice. Calling a man “cocky” (another term rooted in animal names), plays both ways–it is partially admiring and partially not so.
Personally, however, I wouldn’t refer to anyone by his or her body parts.
There is empirical evidence that swearing during pain (e.g., surgery) or emotional trauma does lower blood pressure. Works for me.
How about the stories about patients who were sedated in surgery but could still hear what the doctors and nurses were saying about them? and it wasn’t nice! Lots of swearing and insults. We had a local scandal here where a surgeon was in trouble for slapping the surgical patients asses while they were sedated. He would comment on their fat wrinkly asses or whatever then slap them! He was turned in by nurses and other support staff who were horrified.
Themuse, Ive worked in surgery 27 yrs and I can assure u we are professional. One bad person doesn’t make the whole business tainted. And what does this have todo with cheating?
Yes, of course, I’m sorry.
In Muse’s defense, although I don’t think she needs it, it sounded like it was just a story. I didn’t see it as the whole business being tainted because of one surgeon’s actions. And, I think slapping a patient’s ass that doesn’t belong to your husband or wife is pretty sick if they are sedated and unaware. Sounds close to a passive aggressive act of cheating in my book.
She also went on to point out the professionals turned the fucker in.
CJ, thanks. It’s true my comment was off topic and as a lawyer, I’m always sensitive to lawyer bashing so can see a medical professional being sensitive in a similar way.
I had surgery with a nerve block and a mild sedative and woke up on the table and wanted to watch the operation. My doctor (a gem, he is) just said, “We’re putting you back to sleep for a while.”
Thank you CL. My STBXH – did allow the OW into our life so I blame him completely, but the OW- she is no victim, she knew me, befriended me – just so she could spend more time with him in my home, with my children, eating my gourmet dinners….(because working and fucking him at work wasn’t enough), So yes, I blamed her a lot- for betraying ME, for letting me think that she was my “friend” and I Shamed her – every single mutual friend that knew her – I told that she was the OW. She is still married and I’m sure still a slut.
“Most of the time I didn’t know the girlfriend, so I didn’t care. Yes, that is extremely insensitive. But, when you’re horny and in the heat of the moment, the last thing you think to do is stop someone from doing something that will harm him or her, but really have not much of an affect on you.”
I just had the best shopping spree. Oh, that was your credit card I was using? Well I don’t know you and it really doesn’t affect me so I don’t care. You know, when you’re greedy and you just have to have those shoes all you can think about is those shoes. They look so great with this outfit.
Vomit.
You shouldn’t be so hung up on “ownership”, Fiesty!
My husband’s AP knew he was married, but didn’t care because she was too (although supposedly separated). Even after I found out, and he broke it off, she continued to pursue him relentlessly, which resulted in the affair rekindling. I definitely blame him more than her, but you gotta wonder how morally bankrupt someone who does that is. Then she sent me an email saying it was my fault that he cheated because he wasn’t getting enough attention at home… Some nerve, and she deserves to be shamed.
What about the “supportive shoulder” who “wouldn’t sleep with him until he divorced me”. Is that like some form of moral OW? On one hand, ok, she wasn’t sleeping with him ( definite EA, IMO) but isn’t the “i wont sleep with you until you are free” some sort of tease to encourage him to leave? This always bothered me because – technically – is this an OW? My ex certainly didn’t think so. They are married now so I’m sure her intentions to poach my husband weren’t there at all (eyeroll) He, of course, was overly ripe for the picking.
I have two words for you : Ann Boleyn.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! (You remember what happened to her, right?)
Karma got both her and grease spot Henry.
The term “ripe for the picking” brings to mind “low hanging fruit” and we all know how Easy” and low quality that can be! So, put a bow on his bald spot and place her on his doorstep! Think of it as “regifting” something you used, but it never was really your favorite!
I meant ” him on her doorstep”!
Karma didn’t get Henry until he’d beheaded yet another wife, and considered doing so to a third (who was smart enough to play submissive).
Slut shaming is denigrating a woman for having lots of sex or flaunting her sexuality. That’s not the problem I had with my cheating ex-wife. Her problem was taking a vow that we would be faithful exclusively to each other and then breaking that vow and hiding what she did for years and years.
I have no problem with women being sexual or using their sexuality to their advantage. Frankly, what red-blooded American male wants women to hide their sexuality under a bushel? But I have a big problem with what cheaters do. So, liar shaming? Fraud shaming? Abuser shaming? Yeah, count me in for that. That’s the sh*t shame was *invented* to address.
Couldn’t agree more. Using the word ‘slut’ conflates lying and sexuality and is an unhelpful and degrading term. Call it what it is.
Great comment. What I was trying to say, only much more succinct.
Scuz bucket and whore bag. I blame both. My scuz buckets whore bag made sure she hurt me enough to get him thrown out. And whore bag was cheated on twice with two marriages so she knows exactingly how it feels. People who do this who care not one wit about the betrayed spouse is a skank foot. Fuck the cheaters and their whores!
No-MAH for President. I agree completely.
Is that how it’s pronounced?
Nomar fan club!
I guess it is if he’s from Bahstin.
I am not sure you can slut-shame a prostitute but he also had affairs with single girls and a women with a live in boyfriend. I feel he is the responsible party. I’ll say he needs mutt shaming. Give him a little attention and he can sniff it out like a damn dog.
Also I can’t speak for all,but I do not feel most leave a partner simply because they fell out of love. I would sincerely doubt that was the reason if someone told me this. I would lean toward cheating and abuse and maybe ashamed to admit it. IDK
I also have a huge problem with the repeated statistics about women being the ones filing for divorce without bothering to understand why. Guess who filed for divorce in my marriage…me. Guess why. Because my husband was balling women he met on craigslist. Just because someone runs out of a burning building doesn’t mean they started the fire. Secondly. I agree there are just as many women as men involved in affairs. But I have to wonder if the amount of Married Men having affairs vs Married Women isn’t hirer. For every 1 guy I know who’s marriage ended because of a spouse’s infidelity I know 10 women. Look at the ratio of women to men here. That’s not to say that it’s any less reprehensible regardless of gender or any less painful. But I also question these so called 50/50 statistics. The studies are often done with college students. They are hardly if ever done on people who are actually married or over 25. What is the classification for how infidelity is determined in these studies? Of course those studies come back with high levels of infidelity and a more equal gender spread. Look. Either way my heart goes out to men and women who’ve had to go through this. And I am very thankful for the guy chumps who contribute here.
On a somewhat related topic there was recently a study published that showed the amount of divorces that happen after a major illness. For some reason rather then asking why the wives filed for divorce the researcher surmised that it’s because they didn’t like the care they were receiving from their husbands…once again blaming the wife for the demise. The comments revealed what is probably the more accurate story. That cheaters often cheat during major illness and ditch the sick spouse. The stupid “women file more” statistics were cited there too. Except who wouldn’t file for divorce if their spouse is busy fucking other women the moment she gets cancer or pregnant?
Oh, and Chumplady I love you…but god I hate HuffPost.
You know what they say, if it sexts a married man like a slut, sucks a married man like a slut, and fucks a married man like a slut……..well she must be a slut.
Don’t even get me started on what I think about the married man.
Yes, in fact I read that a man is seven times more likely to abandon a sick partner than vice versa. Doesn’t make it any easier for abandoned men that they are in the minority though. Not at all.
I filed for divorce, precisely because my husband was cheating on me during my cancer treatment and point blank refused to leave the other woman and come home. I had no choice at that point. I actually didn’t want a divorce, loved my husband (not realising his true nature) and did everything possible to save the marriage up to that point. In fact he’d moved all our joint savings into an account under his own name and was overseas so I was in real danger of being left destitute. Thank goodness the law protected me. I’m glad I moved fast. He had made the mistake of thinking that because I was loving, kind and gentle, that I was also weak. He learned the error of his judgement on that score.
Ditto M! I filed because he cheated and continued to cheat! But when I was diagnosed and treated for lung cancer, he pulled some horrific stunts and tried to “use” the crap out of me! And on top of that, I found emails between his lawyer with Schmoopie as CC that were setting up “damage control” for Mr. sparkles so he would not only look good., but he and Schmoopie could benefit from my death and come out looking like paragons of virtue! It’s truly vomit worthy!
The OW in my case is without a lie one of the ugliest women I have ever seen. That is what was so damn insulting – to find out he was banging THAT. When I kicked him out, she “took pity” on him and moved him into her walk-up skanky apartment. They shared a single bed because they couldn’t afford a new one, and the sofa was too short for him.
I only know this because she blogged about their pitiful life at the time, and still does. She was desperate for a man and basically sold her body for what she could get. Hell, she was even selling her used underwear on websites (yes, there are sicko’s who buy that stuff it seems). He is a geniune sicko to want to pair up with such a creature. I think he has zero self esteem to be able to even appear in public with her. Or he enjoys wielding complete control over another person.
I genuinely think it’s both parties’ mental delusions that lead them into cheating behaviours. A complete lack of integrity or moral compass – they just don’t buy the same set of morals that civil laws are based upon. People who lack standards can be from any walk of life. It’s just that somewhere they got the idea they were above having to behave like normal people.
For anyone out there who can’t stop hating the other woman, remember to trust that time will deal them the appropriate karma. I have so enjoyed watching the karma bus roll on. And most of the time, I lead my fabulous life without giving them a thought besides a chuckle now and then. This site is great – it allows us to vent, even if we never mention our thoughts to anyone in our present lives.
For me, it’s that MOW can’t spell or write a sentence without some egregious usage error like “I seen….” that makes the cheating with her so insulting.
Great post.
When I first discovered the initial betrayal of the decade long affair with the MOW, I was so angry at That Slut.
It was a psychological way to protect myself from the crushing reality that My Cheater sought out That Slut. The real anger and rage needed to be directed at the Abuser: the spouse/partner. Once I sorted through that mess I did indeed direct the rage onto the appropriate person, Mr Cheaterpants.
However AP’s are not given a free pass. These are people who engage in intimate relationships with married people. Most cultures do not excuse adultry. If the AP did not know their lover was married but discovered the lover is tied to another, any rational person would break off that kind of relationship. Being rational is a key term.
The long term AP in my situation was and still is married. I know she has a history of fucking for sport with other men. I also know she knew my asshole was married and had kids. I also know that she Did Not Give a Fuck about any of that. Her objective is !FUN! and in her version of Christianity God will forgive her for her transgressions. May this slut rot from her anus out, God willing.
There are No free passes in my book for anyone who willfully engages in Adultry. They are all whores and sluts. That stated, my cheater IS a whore. He began his Fuckfest of random paid and unpaid pussy very very early in my marriage. Thinking about this now, and maybe forever, makes my rage rise at him.
OW
So I am sitting at a bar and see a man by himself drinking alone. I am lonely and fifty three years old. All of my past relationships sucked as I get involved too quickly with the men I pick up. Then I belly up to the bar next to him and he tells me how his wife is like a sister and he has been unhappy for two years. His complaints are numerous and she gives him no attention/sex. He has a business and complains about having to support his wife. He goes on and on about all the injustices going back for years. After sitting with him for a few hours I give him my number because he is such a good guy that is unlike anyone I have met. We dance, we kiss and I want this. Last month I got arrested for assault and I broke into my last boyfriends house and was arrested for assault and drug possession. He is very understanding as I blame my past mistakes on picking losers like his wife. We have such a connection. He go to my car and have sex. He asks if he can see me again. I let him know I want a commitment and our affair starts. He is so honest, everything I have ever dreamed of. His poetry described me as his dream girl and we start planning our future. I have found my soul mate. His wife is a worthless piece if shit and i give him an ultimatum. We date for two weeks and he makes plans to move in with his daughter. When he tells his wife she is devastated but she deserves to lose him because I know what he needs.
X
I was sitting at the bar and met this ugly woman who screwed me in her car. We have sex all the time. I have been addicted to porn and she’s into it. I have been cheating for years and my wife has expectations I cannot meet. I just want to party and fuck around and she’s into it. I’m going for it. Yippie!!
My husband left me for a whore. He thought it was a one night stand but went back for more. He lied to his daughter and said we weren’t getting along. I threw him out when he gleefully told me he was spending the night at her house. He moved his possessions in my daughters and never lived with her, just moved in with his whore and went on a vacation with her to florida to celebrate her birthday.
I got a divorce. He disregarded his children and they have no respect for him. He also lost his relationship with his granddaughter.
I believe sluts have no shame and feel entitled to whatever comes their way. She is an angry, abusive, ugly, woman without morals. Her life has been a mess and she truly appreciates his lack of character. She is just being herself, a desperado.
X
He is alone with a whore. He has no freedom as she needs him to be under her watchful eyes. Her demands are possessive in nature. He has no way out. His daughter made him remove his things from her home. He misses his life, home, and close family. I told her I think about her all the time but it’s too late. She wants no contact and has moved on. What did I do?
Chump Donna
Last night I was with my beautiful bright granddaughter as she sang at a fundraiser for PAWS New England that my daughter organized. We had a wonderful time. Absence does not make the heart grow fonder. It frees it for authentic relationships. I think I took a step toward Meh. I didn’t think I could do it but I did. My life IS better! I love CN
Good for you, Donna!
Donna, I love this! It’s probably as close to the reality of adultery as we’ll come. And just look who comes out of this with the most benefit, the chump! We go on to live full, robust, loving lives with the respect and love of our family! I’d say that if there are any “winners” in these horrific situations, it is the chump!
**shrug** I couldn’t give a shit less about my XH’s AP(s). They are nothing to me, just like I was nothing to them. This is on HIM. HE brought them into my and my family’s life–she didn’t knock on the door one day and ask to come in.
What is the point of shaming them—when they aren’t capable of that emotion? The defining characteristics of NPDs is their lack of empathy and connection with any human being.
This patriarchal society sits back and glorifies men’s exploits, especially encouraging conquest at all costs.
We hold NO ONE accountable for ANYTHING anymore—not just cheating. Everyone has an excuse, everyone has a “condition” and “issues” and a “bad childhood” that just explains away shitty behavior. Even the discussion the other day about Hillary Clinton and Bill—awwwww…..it’s just situational. They are a power couple, gotta cut them some slack. NO, no I don’t.
Adultery is a theft–just like the television analogy stated above. Do you think that shaming thieves works to decrease the amount of burglaries?
No. Real consequences serve to deter this behavior. If the court system doesn’t want to do it, i.e. criminal conversation and alienation of affection—then it is up to Chumps to do it. Hold the person most at fault ACCOUNTABLE for their actions—across the board, all the time—and see how it effects the brazen behavior of these assholes. But that’s not going to happen—historically, and I don’t give a rat’s behind what you claim, Arnold–the majority of cheaters were MEN. People don’t change their attitudes overnight, and I think that much of the attitude we see towards distinguishing between the “boys will be boys” club and “she’s such a slut!” is a hangover from this Victorian mindset.
Nowadays, it is 50/50. Who gives a rat fuck about the past.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it…. if you think current attitudes are not influenced by the recent past, I’ve gotta bridge for sale. (And by recent, I mean the last 100-150 years.)
For crying out loud, my mother was born before women could legally vote in the US. Legally vote. One generation. The past matters a great deal in these things.
Arnold clearly doesn’t understand that children learn their behaviors from their parents and so on down the line. Unless, of course, you were hatched or brought here by aliens from outer space.
Seriously, Arnold—you’re an attorney? And you don’t understand the effects of a parent’s teaching? Really? You also don’t understand that even in this country, we have pockets of ultra conservatism and in others we have ultra liberalism? Really? These attitudes are not far off, in plain view–for example Southern Baptists. Male dominated dynamic. Women walk 3 feet behind and have babies and cook. And keep their mouths closed while the men do their thing.
This thing with you and your experience. You are not everyone and all statistics. Yes, these things may have happened to you–physical abuse from a woman–but this means nothing in the larger scheme of reality. This attitude smacks very highly of being so self absorbed that you are not able to see the larger picture. Your cherry picking of one man, one dubious study–shows me that you are looking for information to support your personal conclusion.
I think we got into a major middle eastern war that killed hundreds of thousands because of that attitude, if I am not mistaken.
Please take your vulgarity and back handed mysogyny and keep it to yourself. I’ve watched you subtly demean the women on this board over the course of months now—and I for one am impressed that Nord and NamedForVera and others are calling you on it. I’ve let it slide because arguing with someone who is convinced of their own central role in all things—is not a worthwhile pursuit—it’s right up there with arguing with a serial cheater about the merits of fidelity.
I think you are so invested in being a victim, Sphinx, that you ignore all the evidence that does not support your views on patriarchy etc.
Arnold, you are a bright guy. And you know doubt know that not all that long ago, women in this country couldn’t even own property on their own. And they couldn’t go to med school or law school and still earn 70 cents on the dollar in the same position as a man. These are “views on patriarchy.” These are historic facts. That doesn’t mean, of course, that there aren’t now highly successful women, women who out-earn men, women who are happy at home, women now living in abject poverty because they were abandoned by cheaters, and women who are abusive cheaters themselves.
I know I don’t see myself as a victim–even though I divorced a guy who tried to kill me and another one who was a cheater, among other nasty things. I brought those people into my life, eyes wide open. I don’t think it matters whether either cheating or divorce is 50/50, based on gender. People cheat. And chumps get hurt. And we ought not to prod and poke at each other here because all of us have been hurt enough already.
Thank you , loved. I do not dispute that in certain areas of life women were got a raw deal.
But, what the patriarchy al,eating fails to consider,IMO, are the many downsides that males faced/face, as well.
Male suicide rates are much higher. Custody goes to women in over 8% of contested cases. 99% of combat deaths are men. Men live about 6 or 7 years shorter.95% of industrial workplace deaths are male. More men are raped in prison. Men serve more time incarcerated for similar offenses. Over 85% of the homeless in this country are male.
so, if we have a patriarchy, why all these disadvantages for men.
How many men die in childbirth each year?
(hint: it’s not a contest, and it’s more than combat deaths, combined)
Why this relentless banging away on patriarchy? Arnold, you are the only person here I see using that term.
It is a social-structural fact that women and person of color–more so women of color, have less access to economic opportunities, housing, fair loan practices, and the like.
Wait, isn’t this a site about Lose a cheater , Gain a life? What were we talking about, anyway……
If you want to do the misery dance with MRAs go over to Reddit please. Thank you.
Thanks, Sphinx. I agree, the relentless misosgyny and insistence on false evidence is tiresome. (Contra, for example, the FBI’s statistics on Domestic Violence.) But if you let it pass, it feels like tacit consent–much like the abuse from a Covert Narcissist, in fact. It’s subtle and insidious, and designed to silence other voices.
One thing I’ve been learning in my recovery from the trauma and abuse of my marriage is not to let that kind of bullying pass by, most especially in what should be a safe space for all.
As ChChChump says, we are all hurting.
Yet, there are very few of us, maybe I can them count on one hand? who lash out at other posters on this board.
There are so many other places to spew woman-hating, or man-hating, or alligator-hatting, or whatever your groove is. But please not here.
We do in fact all need a respite from the hater-ade we got from our partners, let’s not dish it out to each others.
You’re welcome, NFV.
What amazes me is the accusation that ANY of us is “so invested in being a victim”—when so many of us have posted the most wonderful stories of rebirth and renewal—I have my own story to tell as well, when the time comes. My life has launched into the stratosphere, along with my kids’. I come here to tell my story and to help others who are struggling through the early days of the mindfuckery.
What I haven’t heard is Arnold’s story of wonderful moving on and “meh” and how his life is so much better—what I do hear is someone whose negativity towards his two cheating ex wives, who he married knowing full well their individual pasts—has never wavered. Never improved. Never moved forward. In fact, the misogynistic comments I’ve read from him have only gotten worse–and towards the people here who have never directed an unkind word towards him.
Any one of us has a bad day and can vent the nastiest feelings and emotions about our own ex’s–very rarely to I hear a blanket statement that “all men” are evil cheaters with not a shred of decency—yet when one person does vent about their particular story—-we are suddenly “steeped in victimization” and “invested in being a victim”.
Why are you here, then, Arnold? All you do is complain about your XWs and their cheating and comparing their lovers’ physiques to yours and so on—aren’t you just “invested in staying a victim” according to your own accusation?
The statistics do not bear you out, Arnold, and I think each of us here know that. Which is why no on is really interested in continuing this line with you. You throw out these demeaning comments with no factual basis. If you wish to have an honest debate regarding the statistics, then I would strongly suggest going over to the forum—where the social science majors, the healthcare workers, the victim hotline volunteers—as well as the PhDs and Master’s level educators can discuss the subject quite intelligently.
But then, this is very typical of someone who has a problem with centrality–everything you say, no matter whether you can back it up with facts—is correct and everyone else is wrong.
We’ve heard this song and dance before—it’s why most of us are here. Speaking louder and with more vulgarity does not make you correct in your statement. That’s how a disordered person argues.
Just an aside—the story about Ashley Judd’s Twitter harassment is very relevant here. When was the last time a man was told that he was going to be raped or called a gender specific derogatory name simply for voicing an opinion about a SPORTING EVENT.
I was referring to some fairly repetitive references to patriarchy and male oppressors ,Sphinx, when I mentioned your allegiance to being a victim, not The betrayal by your spouse.
My life is pretty good, Sphinx. My kids love me. I have a very nice girlfriend. I have a decent career and income. My golf game is really pretty goOd. I took in two stray cats who are nice. Etc
many of us here, like CL herself, are thriving but still feel the pain our cheaters inflicted on us.
And, as has been discussed here many times, feeling negatively toward someone who abused you is normal and healthy. Nothing to be ashamed of in that regard.
I ,simply relate similar instances of abuse by a NPD abuser when I tell of the bike rider physique deal. These types of stories are in response to similar stories of abuse by other posters. Many do the same thing here.
so, like you ,my life is very good. I am progressing nicely toward ” meh” but , like many others it is not easy.
you have no idea what it was like raising my disabled son and his brother with no help for years. My son almost died many times from illnesses and had two major surgeries while his mom was out fuck in strange men.
so, forgive me for feeling negatively toward her.
I do not believe it demonstrates misogyny to take issue with the concepts of patriarchy, rape culture, or that men are oppressors. Nor does taking issue with claims that men comprise the majority of domestic abusers.
the studies I have read about support this.
I call bullshit Arnold, you are here to fucking recruit to you crap misandry shit and it’s gotten old, you only pull out the “nice stuff” when you get called out, we all try to be rational with you for a while but it is completely pointless, you have decided on a point of view and you are recruiting here. Just cut the shit, you need support, the get it, you want to vilify women, go back to your enclave
Time for a time out, maybe?
Statistics are important. So is individual experience.
Because we hurt, we lash out. When we lash out, we can hurt others.
Hetero posters (likely in the majority) were damaged in a way no-one should EVER be damaged by someone of the opposite sex whom they trusted.
I, for one, hope that we can cut each other some slack, hear the pain underlying the anger, and remember we all have a right to BE angry, to FEEL that pain.
ChChCh, I agree we all have a right to be angry, but the reality is we DON’T all lash out at others who are not in any way responsible for our situation.
That was actually one of my biggest problems with my ex; he was always in a bad mood about something (usually work stress or envy of others), often angry (usually about not getting what he thought he was entitled to, whether he’d done anything to earn it or not), and lashed out at the kids and I because of it. He later admitted most of that crabbiness and anger had nothing to do with us; we were just handy targets, and he knew there wouldn’t be many consequences for his bad behaviour with us. (Well, until there were!)
That kind of behaviour is unfair and immature, and should be called out. We can call out gently, because we know everyone here has been through very difficult times, but we need to set safe boundaries, anyway.
“He was always in a bad mood about something” is one of those red flags. People who cheat are doing so much fake living that it has got to be stressful. Imagine for one second what it would be like to wake up every morning and lie to the family that loves you. I’d ask my ex why he seemed so mad and of course he became defensive. What a total piece of shit.
I think the problem is that there is no clear communication, and we mix words and actions and genders up all the time. We, as chumps, also try to defend ourselves because we have been told that we “caused” the problem, so we are emotional and defensive.
This is entirely my opinion, but here is how I came to see the issue after going thru various confusing stages, and thinking thoughts that at times were cross purposed.
Because of the FOO issues, I was ripe for a relationship with a disordered partner. ( I am going to use the he/she here, because I am a heterosexually oriented woman, but you can fill in any appropriate gender for your situation if you think it apples to you.) I am sure my parents were primed by their parents, who were primed by their parents, and so on. Whatever the original cause, generations of crazy were passed along to me, and I somehow thought that because I could not please my father, no matter how hard I tried, and because I saw the way he treated my mother, no matter what, that that was the way life was.
So when my husband stopped treating me like the most wonderful girl he had ever met, and started treating me like a “wife” I thought, “honeymoon’s over.” I did what I thought a good wife should do, and continued on with the marriage, and I didn’t think I had a right to complain and whine about it. Now, for me, cheating was not part of the deal. When I first found out about the cheating, I was ready to end the marriage. Then I got the reconciliation BS, the false remorse, the blameshifting, and the promises necessary to keeping the marriage intact.
Later, when I realized the cheating was of a serial nature, I joined the marriage police and tried to figure out how I could fix all this, because I was still accepting my “role” as “fixer”. I wanted my problem to have a solution, and I was sure I had the skills to fix it. Then I found the truth — that I had based my entire life on a false premise, and that I had to cut through all my programing and belief systems, and reevaluate everything. I also had to accept that some things could not be fixed. You cannot fix a serial cheater. Some things could be fixed — I could stop being a codependent enabler. So I went to work on fixing me, and getting out of the marriage. I had to work hard, and I had children to raise, so I had to put up with some things I didn’t like in order to reach my ultimate goal — I had to get my ducks in a row.
The big difference between me as a chump and the cheater was a sense of respect for myself and for other people’s things. I needed a partner, but I didn’t need someone else’s partner. I needed sex and love, but I didn’t need it from someone who belonged to someone else. Of the various OW I found out about, they ran the gamut from not knowing he was married, to knowing me well and having been to my home. I have some sympathy for the unknowing, because anyone can be lied to. but what they did when they knew the truth was entirely on them. No sympathy for someone who takes anything that does not belong to them, and in fact belongs to someone else. You wouldn’t say it was ok to steal a car if it belonged to your neighbor, and it is not ok to take their husband, either. Cheating, stealing, and lying are wrong, and get no mercy from me. My spouse? Biggest cheater, thief, and liar of all. Some of the OW were more despicable than others, and some truly acted like sluts. By slut I mean they use their sexuality as a tool to get what they want, it is manipulation. Men do this, too — and what we call them is not as important as understanding what it is they are doing. Either sex can be foolish and venal.
Using sex to manipulate and denigrate others is just a symptom of slutty, inappropriate behavior. Enjoying sex, whatever the variance, between two committed partners is not the same thing at all — the act can be similar, but the intention is different. Just wanting sex is not justification enough for having it with whoever happens to be there at the moment. Sex is meant to be enjoyed by responsible adults. Children may be “capable”, but they are not emotionally ready or able to take the responsibility. Cheaters are eternal adolescents, capable, but not responsible.
As far as accepting responsibility — we cannot change the past. Whatever advantage one sex has taken of another is a matter of history. We can stop playing the blame game, and stop spouting religious babble and specious stats, and acting like the “playing field” has ever been “equal”. We can try to be better examples for our children, and hope that we don’t believe further warfare between the sexes will be to anyone’s benefit.
I am not responsible for the actions that my parents, parents, parents chose to do, but I am the product of all that happened. I am capable of learning and changing, and improving myself, and it is entirely up to me to chose and control my behavior. I cannot control the thoughts of others, so if someone wants to call me a name and deride me because of my beliefs — I cannot change them. I can act according to my own moral code, and live my life to the best of my ability regardless of what I am called. I am not ashamed, because I have not done anything shameful. Doesn’t mean I am perfect in every way, but I do the best I can. Anyone who expects me to act in accordance with their behavioral expectations is likely to be disappointed.
Portia, your have so eloquently described my experience and my view, I am going to copy and paste and keep safe for future review as there is no way I could ever write these thoughts down as well as that.
I was obsessed with the first two OWs. I confronted them, etc, and I now know why – I had to make them “bad” because I could not fathom I married an asshole. The final OW? I don’t care if she walked on all fours and had a tail. If it were not her, it would have been someone else, so she was just one of the characters in the asshole’s train wreck. As a chump had eloquently posted here, “my past is now her future.”
One of the best lines of the second OW when she approached me: “I know you’ve been married a long time but I can’t help myself.” And she is a marriage counselor (not ours, though). Can you just imagine what she tells her clients?
Uniquelyme, that’s a good observation that at first you blamed the OW because you couldn’t acknowledge that you’d married an asshole. I think we all struggle with that in the beginning.
Forgot to add that first OW slept with the cheater ex a couple of weeks before her wedding and then when she got back from her honeymoon… while I was pregnant. She knew me and sent me the biggest flower arrangement when I gave birth. Nice, huh? Ex confessed when our child was a few weeks old. I confronted her and she ended up telling her H (she was terrified I would tell him) who promptly threw her out of their house and divorced her. They were married for only 6 months.
she got what she deserved.
Muse, I look back now and I am so grateful I am not her. I’d like to believe that cheaters and OWs do have a conscience and maybe one day, their conscience could be silenced no more.
“But, when you’re horny and in the heat of the moment, the last thing you think to do is stop someone from doing something that will harm him or her, but really have not much of an affect on you. I know, I know, I sound like a whore. And I am, by society’s standards. But by my own standards, the standards of the “other woman,” I am anything but.”
Because we all know that self control is just ‘too hard’ for these poor little sausages to employ, right? Whatever happened to a hand with an imagination?
And yes, you are a whore. Your “standards” don’t even play into this game – anyone can attempt to justify anything if they’re disordered enough. Nice try though.
Its this “me, me, its all about me” shit that infuriates me the most. None care about anything except their own fucking gratification.
I wouldn’t say that being in a relationship, unknowingly, with someone who is already taken qualifies you as an OW/OM. Its the behaviour when you find out that knowledge, that qualifies you. I’m speaking from experience here, when someone pursued me, and I found out that they had a (pregnant) girlfriend, mere weeks after I was interested in the guy. When I found this out, I IMMEDIATELY culled him (and subsequently, his girlfriend found out). Its when people find out this knowledge and think ‘Fuck him/her, I deserve them more’ which is disgusting and qualifies you as being an OW/OM (and subsequently a skank).
I guess in a way, I’m fortunate that I’ve never had to meet any OW in person. If I had and they spouted some tripe about how they were better than me, or that I was somehow lacking, I think my self control would be severely tested – and don’t think I’d have enough self control not to mash that woman’s face into a pulp. Thats where you guys have far more self-control in that regard.
Think I figured out why OM/OW do what they do though, other than the selfish shit. The reason they pursue ‘taken’ people is because it means they don’t have to worry about the excessive ‘planning’ of dates, because they are lazy fuckers. They just want kibbles and sex, and don’t want to spend too much time having to plan for it.
i dont know what else you would call a person (woman) who purposely goes after another person (man) after KNOWING that he is married. (the bf/gf thing is just as bad, but marriage is a commitment, a promise to family, friends and GOD that you will stay together, thru sickness and health, thru richer or poorer, better or worse….) except a slut.
boyman’s oompa loompa KNEW he was married. we were not separated at the time she opened her legs for him. or stuck her devil claws into him, or sucked out his soul when she first kissed him. HE might have been unhappy, he probably was complaining about one thing or another, he might have possibly mentioned that he was thinking of divorcing me…….all unbeknownst to me. But this b*tch KNEW he was taken, she looked at his facebook account and all thru his pictures (because i was the one who accepted her stupid friend request thinking she was his cousin or something) where i was still saying how much i loved my husband and how much the little boys admired him. he was VERY VERY much married no matter what he was telling this hood rat AND SHE KNEW IT.
what do you call a person who deliberately HARMS another person. she destroyed my family (i know i know, if not her it would have been someone else eventually but IT WAS HER who convinced my husband to leave me and his children, IT WAS HER that interfered with his vistations with our sons, IT WAS HER that made him feel better about bailing on the one person he swore to take care of). she did not care that i was very much in love with my husband and we would work out our problem just like we had a million times before. She saw what we had and she wanted it for herself. She saw my husband and she WANTED him herself. THAT is ALL that MATTERED TO HER. she did not care that the little boys needed their daddy, in fact that was one of the things i personally told her and she says “oh, i know he has kids, you dont think that i have kids too?” and when i told her that his kids love and need him at home, she says “of course his kids love him, he is their dad but i respect him” whatever the fuck that means. she doesnt care about her own kids, she damn sure did not care about mine OR HIS no matter what kind of emotional vomit comes out of her mouth. all she has do is TELL him “but i love your kids” and he believes her. she tried to tell me that “i love boyman and his kids” but she damn sure wouldnt give him 4 hours alone with his sons every other Sunday, she damn sure made sure she wasnt left out. she was so insecure that she wouldnt let my husband even talk to his own kids, she would interrupt and answer for him.
what do you call a person who lives with a man who doesnt pay child support? if a man lives his wife who loved him and put up with him, does she honestly think he is going to take care of her. if he is not taking care of his kids why in the world would she want to stay with him? what kind of woman would stay with a man who walks away from his own flesh and blood. Or right……i forgot, it is ALL my fault that he doesnt see his boys. i dont have a phone number, i dont have an address, i dont know when he is in town but it is STILL my fault that he doesnt see his kids. but then again, she is also NOT taking care of her own kids, NOT keeping her vows in her own marriage, NOT responsible for anything herself, so i guess she can put up with my husband since she couldnt keep her own.
what do you call 2 people who are married but fucking other people. according to the oompa loompa, they are happy (if 2 people are happy together, leave them the fuck alone) of course she didnt leave him alone when he belonged to someone else. And somehow she has it in HER head, that i have to accept that they are a couple when the bitch did not ACCEPT or RESPECT that we were a married couple.
i just dont understand how people can act this way, how can she do shit like this and think that everything is good in her live. how can she do all of this and then still act like she is religious and that God gave her MY HUSBAND?
if not in this life then in the next life, she will get what she deserves. she is purely an instrument of the devil. the devil rules her actions, decisions and behaviors, she is a fool is she thinks otherwise.
If she truly loved ‘boyman’ and his kids, she wouldn’t have been fucking ‘boyman’ and destroying the family now would she? Stupid whore. Its all about her.
“oh, i know he has kids, you dont think that i have kids too?”
Only response to that is: Yeah, and you’re a fucking shit parent to be parading around like the whore you are.
thank you. i totally agree. boyman can not think for himself, this bitch manipulated him the whole way from the very start. so yes, i blame her for destroying my family. And that is the way i see it, if she loved him she would have let him spend time with his children without hanging all over him. but she is ghetto insecure.
i already mentioned how she left her own kids and was living off other people. i dont understand how a woman could walk away from her own kids (i know there are some good reasons but she doesnt really have any) she just wanted to party and not have the responsibility of kids. i guess my XH felt the same way.
she is not ashamed. she even told me that “she is not at faull and she “did not come between usL and she honestly believes that. she also has no idea that had i fought for my husbans that he would have let her, and came back to me. just like he did before.
the stupid thing really thinks “he is a good man” and that they “were meant to be”. i hate her with a passion and pray something reaaly bad happens to her and then she will find just how NOT a man he really is. but she is a downgrade and doesnt even know she is a downgrade. she has zero accountiblity or intregity. so they will live happily ever after drunk and their own kids hating them. but hey they were meant to be
Frankly, Mrs. Vain–it sounds to me like your X and his ho ARE perfectly matched. You can do better than him.
i guess they are. sigh. i guess she really is better for him then i was. i guess she really is taking care of him better then i did, maybe she really does understand and respect him more then i did. it is damn sad because i thought i was a good person. i thought i was worth the effort. apparently boyman wants someone who is easy and he doesnt have to put any effort in. so ya, she is PerFecT for him.
The term I use for my EX in relation to his extra marital activity is ‘slut’ he was the very definition of the word. For reasons that will only ever be known to him he worked his way throught multiple males. Yes I understand he is a minority. But choosing to love a man for almost two decades to then find that half of that time was based in absolute lies and depravity was soul destroying. I have probably inadvertently met some of my EX’s conquests without realising it. I am pretty sure one was invited to our home and did at one point purse my ex to leave us for him but my ex had something far more important he was not willing the risk. Something of value to him more than me, our marriage or our children. My Ex was/is unwilling to forsake his christian facade. So when offered a smorgasbord of excuses from, being lazy in his Christian walk to being inflicted by an unclean spirit by church leadership he jumped at it, expecting I would yeld to church pressure and keep his secret and our marriage. No. I didn’t. And so now he and the church blame me for his actions and his being divorced, turning a blind eye to his relationship with another woman before our divorce was even final. Because they all believe that he acted this way because of me and they assume him being in a happy relationship with another woman will keep him faithful and straight. My ex never once commented that he was unhappy in our marriage. Those who hid his shit forget that before d’day I wanted out of our marriage because I suspected that something was wrong,(that he was a girl) he was disengaged/being a disrespectful turd but in fake MC claimed to love me and wanted to make our marriage work. Never once said he was unhappy or I was a crap wife or that during the process of MC he hooked up with some random. Although as I type this I don’t think it was a random. Anyway, IMO men too can be sluts, if they act like it, that is what they are.
I’m now wondering my X’s pickup line is when he can’t use the “my wife doesn’t understand me” bullshit he used to use.
Yep Tempest, I often wonder what Schmoopie and the ex will even have in common now that the “fight for their Twu wuv” is over! Her ex is on Facebook and trust me when I tell you that he’s having the time of his life now and my divorce is final from her lover boy so I think the “shiny, new” should be wearing off by now! Oh well. Who gives a flying fig!
The other woman in my life knew me and my children. She worked with the ex for something like 13 years so I saw her many times at work gatherings. I thought she was funny. My bad. She actively pursued the ex while she was married and when they found out they wouldn’t be working together anymore she told him “I think we should fuck before we stop working together.”
That’s all it took apparently. I guess he mulled it over for a whole day.
In the beginning when I was chasing unicorns all over town and trying to spot one in my life, I hated her. After a while I realized she didn’t owe me anything. She didn’t make vows, she didn’t make promises. She was certainly a despicable human being and one might say a slut, but I blamed the ex for the whole thing. Nobody held a gun to his head.
As for whether she takes responsibility or tries to make herself out to be a poor sausage; well I’ll never know because I don’t have anything to do with either of them. I would say that all other women and all other men should be shamed. It’s too bad there aren’t as many derogatory names to apply to all the man whores in the world.
Cheaterssuck, as I have stated before my derogatory name for the ex is “my bitch”! That’s what he is and all he’s good for now! I thank him everyday for having to go to work so I can enjoy his paycheck and everything else we earned during our marriage that I received in the divorce.! Pardon me while I grin and giggle! Sometimes it’s just uncontrollable! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Of the two affairs that I have proof of both OW knew me well, they worked for my H and I, they knew my young children, I spoke to them regularly although I largely worked from home and each one worked on site with my husband.
With discovery of the first one I was home with 5mth old baby and found the love letter, I immediately rang my H on his mobile but he didn’t answer, I then rang the office phone and OW answered (she was his assistant) I gave her a serve but didn’t call her any names, just told her what I’d found and put my fucking H on the line so he knows he has a divorce on his hands……..did I think she was a slut? At he time I was more furious with him….did I hate her…..yes….but not as much as I hated him at the time….I was proud and didn’t want to get base and rant and rave and loose my dignity…..god now I wish I had, I wish I’d called her every name under the sun…..as she knew what she was doing. But I also know H lied about everything, and who knows the story she was given.
Second affair, didn’t find proof until she was off the scene. What did I feel, total dis-believe, I didn’t hate her either….I didn’t hate him…..I was lied to and it was covered up for many years, then H finally admitted thinking he was in the clear and I wouldn’t hold it against him. It’s come back to bite him on the bum, cause his ass has been kicked out. Sometimes I feel I want to contact both these women, I know how to they have an online presence, and ask them what the fuck were they thinking. I know for sure the second one was putting pressure on H to leave me and hour two baby sons, I read it in the letter I found.
She now has a young child and is married, but is pretty much the sole bread-winner and has to travel a lot with work, she takes her child with her. I wonder if she ever thinks about how she damaged my life and my childrens life.
Sluts??? maybe
Selfish, nasty, two-faced assholes….yes….but both were in sheeps clothing and as sweet as pie to me.
i am willing to bet she doesnt think of you at all. woman who are willing to fuck a married have ZERO feelings or emotions for the mans wife. the hood rat boyman was with actually told me that “she did not come between us”. i know she believes that we were getting divorced and she just helped thru a difficult time in his life. i know she doesnt feel or think that she did anything wrong because after all we were separated. (and she will NEVER admit to her part before the separation)
even thou the blunt of the blame is on him, she still had her part in the destruction of my marriage and blowing up my little boys intact secure family. as well as manipulating boyman into abandoning his boys.
she will never admit it and tells people that we were over before she dated him, tells people that it is my fault that he doesnt see his kids. then she acts all nice and sweet. she is the devil tool and there is nothing i can do to prove it.
but i dont need to worry about her anymore then she is worried about me. it is sad how woman like this have no problem ripping apart families just so they can have a man.
I’m not sure who said it, but I found the comments someone made earlier about Southern Baptists earlier to be hurtful and unnecessary. This has been my faith since childhood, and I just don’t think the comments made added anything to the conversation about adultery.
The OW excuse that she didn’t know the wife, so it was ok, is ridiculous. Just like the excuse that the OW didn’t take marriage vows, so it was fine, is rubbish.That’s like saying that I just mugged someone, but I didn’t know him, so it was ok. Or, I never VOWED not to mug him, so it was fine (after all, I wasn’t breaking my vows). Most betrayed people would rather be mugged than lied to, cheated on, stolen from, and abandoned. Yes, even muggers are better than OW (and cheaters).
Since when is it ok to devastate the lives of others, and of young, innocent children — just because we don’t know them, or just because we never promised that we wouldn’t? OW are worse than sluts, they are vile, selfish creatures who bomb other peoples’ lives for fun. Yes, we should shame them. We should do more than shame them. We should shun them, tell everyone what bad people they are, and sue them. They should have to pay for breaking a legal contract (as is possible in some states), as well as an emotional, spiritual, social, psychological, and financial one. Id even be ok with jail time, or at least community service.
My xh KNEW:
he was married
he took a vow to forsake all others
he had children
he would destroy his family
the ow was married
the ow took a vow to forsake all others
the ow had children
the ow would destroy her family
The ow knew all these things also. But none of that matter to either of them. Both of them are responsible for their actions.
There are no words harsh enough to describe (male or female) anyone who is married and would fuck someone else. The lack of morals and depravation in their souls is something that I can’t and don’t want to understand. To me it doesn’t matter if they were the fucker or fuckee, FUCK them both!!! Come on down, Karma bus, I am waiting on you!!
SLUTS come (pun intended) in all sexes, professions, etc….What Arnold highlights is important to consider respectfully–it is disturbing to see personal attacks being waged when simply expressing his point of view. Women do not have market cornered on being victimized……I am able to come up with numerous terms to describe male sluts, these include: man whore, player, asshole, dick, jerk, man slut douche bag, cheater, loser …if there aren’t as many for men it is due to the antiquated double standard and social perception that it a sign of a mans’ virility and needs to be met….
The bottom line is does it really matter which sex commits more acts of one vile act or another–or has more insulting names than another. When something is wrong it is wrong, no ifs, excuses, apologies……those who experience the abuse of having been with a cheater can help work educate the vast majority of the population who has such a limited understanding of the ravages this behavior does and eliminate the many biases that exist that re=victimize the cheated upon.
The problem is, Arnold doesn’t seek the truth. He has already decided what the truth is. He comes on a site that is predominantly female and bashes women. He cites specious stats that come from sites that are run by misogynists.
He seems to be an intelligent professional man — he indicates he is a lawyer, and he has a girlfriend, and children. He has had chump pain in his life, which we all acknowledge. He is incapable of recognizing that patriarchy does exist, and that it does influence the daily lives of women. He always blames women for things we have no control over, and historically have had no control over — like men being the ones who go to war and men being more likely to be raped in prison ( by other men, I would suppose), or how medical problems are funded. He claims “History” doesn’t matter. Many of us have said that this is not about gender, but is about character, and that both genders have issues. But Arnold constantly looks for ways to insert comments that are not really on point, and to profess his point of view. He is sarcastic and dismissive. Sometimes he is purposely vulgar.
I have been on this site for a long time, and when I started reading I noticed the inappropriate remarks he made. I saw others try to use reason and facts to deal with Arnold. He gets angry, blusters, and starts insulting all women, and in particular the women who most effectively call him out. IMO, Arnold is on a crusade, he wants attention, and he wants to put women in “their place”. He wants to blame women for all the ills in the world. He will (rarely) make a supportive comment, and he often gets sympathy from those who do not know him well.
I welcome the male perspective, and most of the other male posters on this site do contribute interesting and thoughtful commentary. IMO Arnold has not contributed anything worth reading, so far. He has been asked, politely, to stop bashing women. He refuses to be polite, or to rethink or rephrase his positions. That is why you see the response he has received. Look in the archives — form your own opinion. Most of us come here for a sense of community and to help pay it forward. We have been thru the fire, and we want to help put it out. Arnold wants to stir the ashes and breath life into the fire.
None of that is true, Portia, and I believe you know it.
I believe every word I wrote, Arnold. I don’t know anyone on this site, I only know their words. You are an instigator, and you take an anti-feminist stance. You cannot just dismiss what has happened historically by saying “who cares” about history. You say you don’t believe that there is a patriarchy — when armed men get on a school bus to attempt to murder a young girl whose only crime is that she wants to go to school. You talk about all the ills of society as if they were created by women, to somehow abuse men.
I have two son’s Arnold. You have daughters. Do you want our sons and daughters to be arguing over which gender causes the most trouble? It is as ridiculous as arguing over who got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
I am sorry you had a bad experience with your marriages. I had a bad experience too. But I do not blame all women’s problems on men. You like to attack some strong women advocates on this site, and you try to use key words to do it. You pretend you are being funny, but no one is laughing. You have been asked to at least consider changing your stance, and you ignore those requests. You have been asked to stop bashing women, and consider your audience, but you bring it up every chance you get.
Why would I say this when I do not know you, if I did not believe it to be true. Your words have created this impression. If you do not mean to be rude, then stop it.
All Of what Portia has said is true, she has been gentle about it. I am done with your shit here, go recruit men to your warped ideology somewhere else. You obviously have no need of this site and you bullshit just hurts both men and women here to heal.
I recently encountered a MRA on Twitter in a conversation about gender equality. He said to me: ‘What about equality for men?’.
Hi OW,
Just thought I’d drop you a line to fill you in on how all is going in the xxxxxxx family, only because I am aware that you have contributed somewhat to the pain that my beautiful children are currently experiencing.
Recently, as in 2 and a half years ago when we had all re-located to the UK, Fig finally admitted somewhat to the transgression you and he were involved in.
I Guess he felt after this amount of time he was in the clear, after lying to me for over a decade.
I don’t know the full details of the affair, I do know that at the time I suspected but Ian smoothed over with speeches of his incomparable love for me, his desire for me, my beauty and intelligence, and his complete and utter denial of anything possible with that (Quote from him) “Fucked-up ,Half-brained X model, how could you ever think I would go there”
I’m sure he told you many proclamations of love and endearments, and likely bagged me to you and said as many nasties and lies about me. This was all to put you and I off the scent, and to have his cake and eat it too.
I do know that a few years after you had moved on I found a note written by you in his notebook, and to me it was proof that I was not imagining things, I was not going crazy, and that yes indeed you and Fig did have an affair and you wanted him to tell me about it…maybe in the hope that he would leave me for you (why anyone would want a man who would cheat on his wife and two young sons I have no idea).
I think I need to let you know that really you weren’t that special to him no matter what he may have said, only because you weren’t the first.
There was one before you and the marriage almost ended over it….but again Fig sparkled and smooshed me with how much he loved me, how contrite he was, and how it would never, never, never happen again. This previous affair (that I know of, could’ve been others) happened while I was pregnant with our first child and continued after xxxxxx was born. I wonder if you could imagine any of this happening to you when you became a new young mother?
I wonder if you have ever felt any guilt about you and Fig, especially after you became a mother.
I say you weren’t special to him, I obviously wasn’t that special either. Well not as special as he was to himself….he clearly felt he was entitled to have his cake and eat it too, no matter the damage it did to me, the fucked up headspace it gave me, the anxiety, the panic attacks, the eventual fallout on the whole family. Being lied to continuously tends to do this to a person, especially if over a long period of time.
xxxxxx is 18yrs old now, xxxxxx is 15, Pxxxxxxx 11……Yes Pxxxxxxx, we did have another child after you because contrary to what I suspect Fig told you, we did have a sex life.
Fig and I have been officially separated for about a year now, but have been living separately for about two years.
The reverberations of his lies have been immensely damaging, the pain and confusion I have lived with for decades has taken it’s toll, I could no longer ignore the lies, smooth over the decrepencies, and trust in him….not after the admission of his affair with you. Because for all I know there have been many other transgressions.
I have no idea if you have enough moral fiber to understand your contribution to the damage to my family. I suspect that someone who sleeps with another womans husband doesn’t have much self respect or moral fiber….but I could be wrong….what would I know.
Sincerely,
Bibi
In my case I blame them both….and the other OW before the last one. The last one took the cake though. She was a gold digging piece of P.P.P. as some of the local police say about some particularly sorry POS they have arrested. P.P.P. stands for Piss Poor Protoplasm, and I think that term fits them both right down to the ground. Who offered and who took them up on it has no bearing. They are both culpable in my book.
I will say that she was a user, and a gold digger. After they blew up our marriage, she dumped cheater ex because he wasn’t making enough money to suit her. She wanted a much more upscale lifestyle. Weird thing was he blamed ME for her dumping him. It all contributed to his final horrific actions. I can’t help but wonder what would have happened if she had not chosen to publicly humiliate him the way she did. Not that I particularly felt sorry for him, but it possibly pushed him over the edge to the point of murder and suicide. I have no doubt she ever is bothered one tiny bit that she contributed to the death of an innocent child….. if she even has a clue of just what she set in motion. I’m sure she went on her merry way treating A.A meetings as her personal smorgasbord of men she could pick and choose from til she found one rich enough to suit her tastes. Heaven only knows how marriages she left in ruins to get her brass ring.
There will come a day she will get her just desserts, of that I have no doubt. I completely believe in Karma. Thing is if a person behaves so despicably in their life, they will attract the Karma Bus. It is just a matter of time. I’m no longer in that area to be front and center ti witness it, but I know it is coming if it hasn’t arrived already…….and really, as far as I am concerned, she will richly deserve it and I don’t give a rats ass what she suffers………Meh.
I can’t blame the OW as much as my cheater. My cheater had a choice to speak up about what he did not like in our marriage, he chose to remain silent and escape. He failed at escaping, so now he tries to make things better for us but my trust in on a permanent roller coaster ride. The OW was a single lady who did not have much luck. She was taking a chance, and he did tell her that he was free, and once the affair was installed and she discovered my existence, he did try to convince her that we did not get along, that we were about to break up. I cannot hate her. I have been single and trapped in the dating zone long enough to know what it feels like. Some women find the right partner very young and completely overlook the fact that they were lucky in a modern world with so many temptations. Many feel entitled, many feel superior than singles who did not have it that easy. My sister is one of them. I cannot help but have some compassion for this kind of OW who falls into the trap.
However I cannot have any compassion for those people like my cheater who have it all, who are not thankful for it, and want more for themselves.
Maybe we should stop judging women cause most of the issues comes from men..I’m comming from a country with many issues with these kind of women and realised it’s men who encourage women to be like that. If you try to be different you are bullied and disadvantaged (your work is being minimized) till you become “smarter” and offer sexual favors..so please..let’s do ourselves a favor (as women) and look for real cause..men rule the society..and if we have an issue it’s because of them P.S. For guys it’s convenient that we argue like idiots (that’s the way they lead us- they train one part of women to be promiscuous and other to shame the first side..and they have fun
Wow, I’m having trouble following the logic here. There are parts of society I cannot do much to change or to change quickly (like the discrepancy between my income and the income of men with similar backgrounds and job experience). But I can take responsibility for my own morality. I don’t have affairs with married or committed men. I expect every other woman to do the same. I expect men to do the same. And I am not the least conflicted about calling out either women or men for behaving in ways that harm other people. It isn’t any useful form of sisterhood to encourage women to blame men for everything and ignore the destruction they wreak on each other through adultery.
Well said. Could not agree with you more. The shame has nothing to do with gender or sexuality. They are boundary sluts, male or female.
Can we look at the issue of being the other partner (who cares if it’s OW, OM or a hetero or homosexual affair) as somebody who should be ashamed for barging into and taking over the intimate part of some poor chump’s life? I personally don’t care whether it’s a man’s world or whether poor men get bashed for being men. Chumps were made fools of, people cheated. The AP of the married or “committed” partner did something nasty. He or she should be ashamed. Only an unknowing AP (somebody who had no idea their new boy/girlfriend was actually married) can claim not deserving of being slut-shamed and only if they immediately tell the cheater to take a hike. I’ve been the unwitting single girl going out with a guy who never mentioned he was married til I met one of his workmates. Dumped him like a fecal covered rock.
If you knowingly date/bed down with a person in a relationship that is not wide open for third parties you are a slut ( or man-slut) and a despicable human being.
great article. I remember years ago when a guy asked me out to lunch (it might have been dinner? but it was nothing special). Even though I was only 18 (I’d been out on my own for a while), I knew that his ulterior motive was sex. In the course of the conversation I found out he was married. I said “oh, but you are separated, right?” and he was like, no, not separated (he was a traveling construction worker). I ended up getting up and walking out of the restaurant. That said, when i was 17 I had sex with a married guy. I don’t really know why I did it now…..I was really screwed up in the head back then. I’d been living a pretty crazy life (ran away at 16) and didn’t really give the wife of that guy much thought.Hell, I hardly knew the guy. That is shitty, but that was me back then. I guess at that time of my life it was all about the hormones, and my screwed up head thought that if I had sex with a man he might fall in love with me. Wow, was I wrong.
When you were 17, you didn’t know. Life just starts, and teenagers have a lot of anxiety about one’s worth in this big world. Especially if their parents or other adults do not guide them in this domain; they fear they are not good looking enough, not brilliant enough. Attention from men is taken as a positive sign, since society instructs us to seek attention. It’s only with some experience that one can realize how disgusting this kind of attention actually is.
n my state, even if you have concrete proof of adultery, you can not use it for grounds for divorce if you have sexual relations or live with your cheater at all after discovery of cheating. It is legally called “condonation” and is considered to be forgiveness of the cheating.
I don’t blame the OW for destroying my marriage. My stbx did that by lying to and betraying me. He made the vows, he broke them. It’s on him, no doubt.
I DO blame OWhore for waltzing into my home under the false guise of friendship and taking advantage of my chumpiness. I blame her for smiling into my face just hours after she fucked my spouse. I blame her for attacking me with email and photos detailing the sex acts she and my ex committed, some of them in my own bed. I blame her for the dramatic scene she staged in my driveway witnessed by my neighbor and my oldest son. I blame her for painting herself as the pathetic victim of a big bad man who seduced poor little her against her will. I blame her for trying for months to re-open the affair even after she had been plainly told that it was over and that she needed to go away and leave ex and I to untangle our marriage and our misery.
She gave my ex sex in exchange for ego kibbles. That makes her a whore. (So is he.) She was a married female who willingly had sex with multiple married men. That makes her a slut. So HELL YES! she should be shamed. Especially since she will never have the decency to feel a-shamed.
Most women unfortunately are the Biggest Cheaters nowadays.