Stay in Touch

Check out CL's Book

Dear Chump Lady, Do I have to host the OW’s kid?

badfriendDear Chump Lady,

Why does he enjoy forcing me to bite his shit sandwich, even after all this time?

My D-day was late 2011. My now XH was having an affair with a study partner, 13 years his junior, for approximately 3-4 months prior. I discovered the affair from looking at his phone after suspecting something was going on. He had been emotionally distant and I couldn’t quite figure out what was happening. I had made an effort to be more affectionate during the time he returned to college to earn his degree. We were not as close, due to him being gone for classes during the week and I had a full-time career and two kids.

The OW was, at the time, 22 years old with a 5-year-old daughter (you do the math) and on her second marriage. She had been in my house for their study groups and her daughter played with my two children. After D-day, I found out that OW and my husband had sex in my house when I was out of town for work. They were caught having sex in his car in a parking lot by city police, even though he himself is a police officer with a university police department. They met at least one time in a hotel room, although that is all he ever admitted to.

I kicked him out of our house, then found a place to rent of my own, and he moved back into the house, which was now on the market to short-sale. He had a complete emotionally breakdown, and begged, pleaded and cried for me not to divorce him and to work on our marriage. I went through every phase of The Unicorn. He swore that he cut off contact with OW. We went to counseling. He called the OW names, like an ugly whore and a rotten cancer to anything she becomes involved in.

During the unicorn year, I found out that one of the other married men in my XH’s study group, also had some sort of affair with OW a year prior to beginning one my XH. I found this out from this man’s wife, who I became friends with. I confronted XH with this information by telling him that she is indeed a whore, and he wasn’t her first target. Of course this (all narcissists being the same) privately enraged XH, who was of the belief that he was OW’s special savior stud. I later found out that he called the other husband to confirm whether or not this was true about his precious OW.

When I discovered this, I knew I couldn’t continue the marriage, and told him to move out AGAIN. It wasn’t long after the divorce was filed, and he knew I wasn’t coming back, guess who he goes back with? Yes, the OW, who was now twice divorced at the tender age of 24.

He has blameshifted so much to all of our once mutual, now my former, friends and his family to make himself appear that he was in a miserable marriage, and OW is so much better for him than me, he’s happy now and I’m just a bitter, angry ex-wife.

I have to eat the shit sandwich of OW’s daughter (now 9) and my daughter (11) being friends. Me and XH live in the same neighborhood for convenience with kid-swapping and my daughter has tried to bring OW’s daughter into my house to hang out. OW has already violated me, caused so much emotional trauma by blowing up my life and has trespassed into my house before. My XH seems enjoy flaunting their seemingly perfect, cosmic love in my face.

How do I explain to my daughter that I do not want her “friend”(though I’m sure they’ll be step-sisters soon) in my home? And that I don’t want to end up babysitting for these two bottom feeders. I’m sure it will evolve into that at some point in time, because neither have any decency or boundaries. XH is such a master manipulator, and he will always find a way to get me to bite his shit-sandwiches, while painting me as the evil ex-wife, who just “needs to move on” and “likes to live in the past.” He thinks that if enough time goes by, the way their relationship was formed will no longer matter to anyone.

I should note that I have moved on, and have been in a relationship with the same man for almost a year.

Thank you for helping me through some tough moments,


Dear Freebird,

You’re not obligated to host the OW’s daughter at your home. Now, on the face of it, that might seem unfair to your daughter and to the OW’s daughter. After all, it’s not that girl’s fault her mother is a freak. They’re just two innocent kids caught up in an adult clusterfuck not of their doing. It’s not fair. Infidelity sucks donkey balls, especially to the kids.

I’m sure the Evolved and Consciously Uncoupled would tell you to suck it up and host the playdates. Break out the goldfish crackers and eat the shit sandwich. The little girl isn’t her mom, she didn’t do anything wrong, so why can’t she flop on your soft and watch “Frozen” for the umpteenth time?

Because she’s a minor, that’s why. Because there is absolutely no way a 9-year old can be in your care, without you having to contact her mother. When you assume responsibility for any child in your home, you are making arrangements with their parents — you are coordinating schedules, pick-ups, and drop-offs. If the child is hurt, you are on the front line for that child’s care. You can’t care for a minor independent of their parents.

You are completely within your rights to refuse that shit sandwich. Your daughter has other options. You’re not telling your daughter don’t play with this girl — they can do that at dad’s house or at school or at another friend’s house. You’re not telling your daughter to not be friends. You’re simply drawing one boundary — this child cannot be in your home, because that means coordinating with her mother. Your need for no contact and sanity trumps an 11-year-old’s “need” for a playdate.

How to explain this to your daughter? “I’m sorry, Sally isn’t allowed at our house. It’s nothing against Sally, but her mother. I can’t host Sally without assuming responsibility for her care.” And really, you don’t need to explain your choices to an 11-year old. You’re the adult. It’s your rule. To a kid, that might seem as arbitrary as “no pet iguanas.” Too bad, when you’re an adult, you can make the rules. While you live here, I make the rules. It’s not a democracy.

Will your daughter push back? She might indeed. It’s your boundary. Enforce it.

Will your ex and his OW/girlfriend push back? I’m sure they will. Free babysitting is hard to find. Will they talk smack about you? They’re already doing that — you hosting the kid isn’t going to change that. “Oh, we’ve been so wrong about Freebird! Did I say she was bitter and ugly and can’t let go? Well all that changed the minute she invited Sally over to watch Frozen! Now we think she’s TOPS!”

Yeah. That’s not going to happen. They already hate you, so just roll with it.

We don’t control what other people think of us, so (in Frozen parlance) “Let it go.”

Your house. Your rules. No shit sandwiches served here.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Oh the gift that narcissism keeps on giving. Here is where I come back to the word “no”. Just “No, honey, I don’t like your father and I don’t like his wife. Because I don’t like them I do not want to have to talk to them. If I have her in my house I have to talk to them. I have told you I will not talk to them. I said no she cannot come to this house”. Furthermore the difference between 11 and nine is going to be an ocean apart when your daughter hits puberty. She will then start running around with kids her own age and this will probably be less of an issue but in the meantime “no” is a perfectly good word. And I still find it is the most difficult word to use in the English language. We can all curse like sailors but we have such difficulty just telling someone to stop doing what they’re doing or even the one more simple than that……just “no”

  • “He thinks if enough time goes by, the way their relationship was formed will no longer matter to anyone.” THIS! My ex is suffering from the very same delusion. Good luck Freeboard. There is no upside to sharing a child with such a cheater, but enforcing healthy boundaries will help, I can testify to that!

    • it is a cultural delusion. Prince Charles and his OW/now wife’s visit to the U.S. comes to mind as an example of accepting the marriage of affair partners. there are countless other less public adultery-turned-into -marriage in our own backyards.

      well, i say, not in my backyard. or my home.

      “it will no longer matter to anyone” means those who accept my XH’s choice to end our 25 year marriage to be with his MOW (in process of her own divorce now) and start a happy new life together are the anyones who no longer matter to me.

  • I have also refused to invite OW’s (now gf) kids to birthday parties held at my house. My kids are now so sick of her kids because they were forced to accept the “relationship” so early on. Now they have to live part time with a couple of home wreckers (ex and her) and her kids whenever they go to daddy’s house. They don’t even ask now because being here with me is a sanctuary from her and her needy kids. I actually feel bad for the kids. Her behavior has screwed them up and they are in counseling to try and deal with the anger they feel (specifically the 8 year old girl).

    • XH did not marry OW but someone else he’s known less than a year. My kids refused to go to the wedding in November and have not seen XH since – until last week. They met their stepmother and step-sisters for the first time and – shock and surprise – the 8 year old step-sister is clingy and needy and was so jealous of the attention XH was giving his own kids that she was apparently “quite a handful” for the entire outing. So much so that my kids (D15 and S11) told XH point blank that if that girl is involved in any future outings, count them out.

      Now I see why children not getting along is the #1 reason for divorce in second marriages…

      • Red, she’s seen how expendable people are in the Cheater Universe and it’s made her insecure and nervous. Children truly are victims of these people.

        • They really are. XH wanted S12 to come live with them right after the wedding, and S12 said, “No, I don’t want to live with strangers.” XH was flabbergasted – it never occurred to him that S12 would object.

  • The convenience of living close is clearly also an inconvenience. I wouldn’t want to live that close to ‘them’.

    And LMAO @ ‘Special Savior Stud’ !!

    • Sounds like OW has figured out how to get a free babysitter, while Freebird gets to be portrayed as the bad guy. I think it is difficult for us chumps is to say no; we are chumps because we have a hard time enforcing boundaries and, when we do, we second guess ourselves. I am facing this issue with my X’s nieces and nephews. Not one of them so much as picked up the phone when the shit hit the fan, but now, they want to come “visit” me and stay at my peaceful cottage by the sea. Hell to the no! So I get painted as this bitter old bitch, who just can’t move on. I’ve moved on all right…and left no forwarding address.

      Obviously, Freebird has to have some contact with X because of her child, but she is in no way obligated to babysit OW’s daughter. I use the term babysit because the child is 8 and , at that age, she requires direct supervision. As she gets older, the chaos of her upbringing is going to start to show. Does Freebird want to obligate herself to participating in guiding this child through those days? If not, she should set firm boundaries, making clear to her daughter that it has nothing to do with the children. At 11 years old, it is fine to tell her daughter,”It was hurtful to me when your father chose to become involved when OW while we were married. OW’s daughter is a reminder of that hurt and I am not comfortable having her in my home. She is probably a delightful young girl, but it is best for all of us if your play together at dad’s house.”

  • Hm. You say you live in the same neighborhood for “convenience”? Is it *purely* that? Frankly, I’d fuckin’ move. Across town. Being *that* close to the asshole X and his Schmoopie would give me major agita. The fact that having the kids together would then be *in*-convenient would be a welcome side dish.

    • Thank you Tracy and Chump Nation for your support and encouragement. I truly wish I could move across the country from X and Schmoopie, but my kids have had to change schools twice since D-day. My daughter is in Jr. HS, and she has made a close group of friends and can’t make her move again. Me and XH have shared custody, so I’m stuck where I am for the time being.

      • Can you at least move a *little* further away – but IN the kids’ district?? Even across the district it would make it *that* less convenient and gives you still some space, KWIM?

      • I don’t know why bitter gets such a bad rap. There is nothing wrong with being bitter. It’s often anger turned into protection as a way of life and we let go when we no longer need it. And nothing says self love like self protection. Love and props to all the justifiably “bitter” chumps out there.

        That being said, you don’t sound bitter at all. You sound trash-avoidant. You are simply trying to keep your association with nasty pieces of trash (the two cheaters) to a reasonable amount. Having the ow’s kid over is like having someone else have access to your place to dump their trash and let you take it out. Mind you, the kid is not the trash. It’s the adults in her life who are garbage.

        Any time that someone uses a kid to violate someone else’s boundaries it’s also a sure sign of the Disordered.

        Stand your ground and trust your insticts about healthy boundaries.

        • Amen, Kat. If bitter prevents you from moving in a healthy direction in life yourself, then it indeed can be destructive. But if ‘bitter’ just means you are willing to exhibit a healthy contempt for the actions of cheaters, OWs and OM, and their apologists, then that shows character.

          Yet one more term bandied about to further harass the victims of infidelity, as if we just don’t know our place because we didn’t curl up in submission.

          Viva la bitter!!

          • Why does ths choice have to branded as “bitter.” People who have good boundaries are not viewed as bitter. they are viewed as smart. There are some kids that I would not want to be the adult around either.

            my ex BIL was such a passive agressive a-hole. I’m sure if any of his kids had a problem he would shoot first and ask questions later. The best way to avoid these scenarios is to avoid the situations in which they can occur.

            It’s having good boundaries that prevents us from being bitter. Who wants to be a free babysitter? Who wants to be held responsible for the scratch on some child’s knee? who wants to allow “spies” of the enemy into your home? so that everything that goes in there is braodcasted by the OW and the Ex. Not to mention the fact, that as long as the daughter regularly visits Freebird, the OW and the Ex can make up anything they want and they would be believed…… just because.

  • Tesla, is it true that all male trolls have tiny peckers and pepperoni Hot Pockets where their brains should be? Cause, I’m thinking . . . yes.

    Clearly you’re getting lots of “nookie” (Nookie? Really? Tesla, your anachronistic choice of childish euphemisms is almost charming), which explains why you’re on an infidelity support website at 8:24 a.m. Because that’s where all the “alpha guys” hang out to find women who will throw themselves at you.

    Ye Gads, Tesla. Must be hard going through life with such a bad case of the Dumz. Want to know what it looks like when a pathetic loser gets tea-bagged by reason? Just read the comments below.

  • Just because you have the opportunity does not mean you run with it. You have the opportunity to kill yourself everyday, but do you take up that opportunity? You wrote this post so I assume not.

    Whats the big deal?? Nookie comes with STD’s, broken vows, broken homes, hurt people and even more hurt families? Should I continue?

    You talk so nonchalantly about this but I can guarantee you would be more than enraged if it happened to you. Aint no fun when the rabbit has the gun.

  • Freebird,
    Every time you host OW’s daughter it is a testimony to XH & OW’s special love!
    They dig it, it’s their kind of music. They have been exposed, the excitement of elicit sex can now only be matched with make up sex and triangulation! Stop letting them dance to your music and watch the house burn.

  • After the fucktard moved out to be with the whore my daughter visited me and went to see her father and the new woman. They made a huge display of showing off the pretty trophy daughter to her friends and family. Inviting her to OW’s daughters wedding this past Nov. However when wedding time rolled around my daughter did not receive and invitation nor a phone call asking if she was coming. OW completely ignores he has three children and an older sister she wants Facebook friends with them to keep them up to date on what’s going on but her daughters are all up in his face. All his family refused her requests for friends. He at this time mostly ignores them unless they are with him then its a big deal. He deals with birthdays and holidays. Texts them big holidays graces them with phone calls. How gallant of him. Out with old in with the new. I’m so glad I don’t have small children that are buddies with OW kids. All are grown. I would be beside myself if I had to deal with that. His other woman is dying to meet me so we can become great friends. Hahahahahaha! I told dickweed what would she and I possibly have talk about “how hard your slong gets?” oh I’m sorry that’s right it hasn’t worked for ten years even with pills! She’s never had that! I don’t know why they feel the families should combine. Effing assholes!!!!!

  • I completely understand this flavour of shit sandwich. It sucks cause no matter what, you feel bad.

    My x and his MOW had some fantasy of the two blended families ( minus us pesky spouses ) all living happily ever after.

    My x met Miss Piggy while at University working on his Masters Degree.
    I won’t go through the textbook story line, but over time her children and my children became close – all those church youth groups and sleep overs at our house!

    It burns my biscuits that in many ways these cheaters got what they wanted.
    And her kids are great. Would I have them at my house. No.

    Time to put on those big girl panties and draw the line. You need to show your daughter that you are not ok with what Dad did without bringing the children in on your shit sandwich delite!

  • If I’m reading this correctly, Freebird’s ex lives with OW and OW’s kid, in the same neighborhood that Freebird and Freebird’s kid does. I think you can simply say, “You can see Kid next time you’re over at Dad’s house.” You can even bring up the whose time it is thing: “Right now, it’s our time together. You’ll be with Dad and OW and Kid next weekend (or whenever.)”

    BF has a kid, and I would find it screamingly bizarre if my kids were invited over to BF’s X’s house to watch Frozen or whatever. I have a friend whose divorce was as amicable as possible and both went on to remarry people with kids. These are people who sit together at school/sports events, chat it up at birthday parties, etc., and they don’t host their kids’ new stepsiblings for playdates.

  • One thing you have to watch out for is that the daughter has probably picked up the values of the OWhore and your ex. My experience was that the skank,’s daughter was about ,8 years older than mine, and she is a remake of her mommy. At the time, In therapy, remedial school, out running wild while her mother whores with married men. My dumass actually referred the OWhore to send her to a Boot Camp and to help pay for it. Lol. She’s a legal adult now and as big a whore as her mother. Cannot imagine why….

    • This isn’t quite fair. I was about to do a separate post on my experience as a child when I read this. We can’t see inside that little girls head. My mom had an affair with my best friends father when I was 8. I was humiliated and ashamed. I never would have wanted to have to spend time with her mother after that because I would have felt incredibly awkward about it. Children that age don’t usually announce how they feel to adults, they just take their cues from us and roll with it. I think Freebird may be doing what’s best for the OW’s daughter too, by setting some boundaries. She may understand more than you think, and there’s no way to know how she really feels about it all. And my experience of cheating and divorce as a child guaranteed that I would never be able to do that to someone else. She may have picked up mom’s values, or she may have other influences a good character that tell her what mom has done is wrong-we just don’t know.

      • I’m speaking from my own experience only. I’m sorry that you had a bad experience, Done Now, but in my situation I am extremely thankful my daughter was not exposed to the OWhore or her daughter. Like I said, in this instance, the daughter saw her mother Shacked Out with various men and dating married men in front of her. This directly shaped the daughter’s character. She now lives on her own and does the same. It’s not exactly fair, but it’s true.

        • I will also say that I had met the OW and her daughter several years before my husband cheated with her. Based on what I saw of them at that time, I would not have the girl in my home , whether her mother was a cheater or not. She was disrespectful and rude, not well behaved at all. I’m sure it was a reaction to a lack of parenting, the result of chasing men and putting them above the welfare of her own child by her mother, but it’s the same result, no matter the cause. That’s just my take on it. My own mother was an adulterer, and I’ve seen the effect on kids myself.

      • Good points DoneNow. I hadn’t thought of it from the kid’s POV as being terribly awkward. Thanks for sharing your perspective as the AP’s kid once.

      • Good for you for using excellent judgement at a young age under difficult circumstances and sticking to your strong values. Wish more people could behave like you did

  • I believe that narcs LOVE the drama of it all. They love being the center of attention and they don’t care how they get the attention as long as they get it. They feed off the kibbles. I equate it to an arsonist staying very close after setting a fire…….they love to see the destruction! Same goes for a narc.

    Perhaps just explaining to your daughter that while this little friend is a perfectly nice person, you need to limit contact with her mom and therefore it would be uncomfortable for you to host her friend in your house. Play dates can be at your father’s house!

    I suffered 5 years of ddays and false reconciliation with my ex continuing on with the same OW. They have purchased a home together now and one of my two teenage daughters spends every other weekend with her dad. This past Friday night we were celebrating my oldest daughters birthday by going out for a celebration at a night restaurant. The OW called my youngest during our meal to firm up plans for me dropping her off I guess. She knew we were having dinner. She knew she was interrupting it. She could have sent a text. But she wanted to be the center of attention and to interrupt our lives! So RUDE! Even my daughter said so. AND…..she is 17 and can be the queen of rude!

    Truly… NEVER ends! Good luck to you.

    • One of the best family rules for those in this situation is the “no phones/texts during dinner and/or family celebrations” rule. Make everybody turn off their devices until the meal is over. Any messages go to voice mail and can be checked when dinner. gift-giving, etc. is over. Years ago, I had a relationship with a man whose ex-wife (divorced years before we met) used to interrupt every single occasion, including dinner on his visitation nights. She even turned up on a vacation to drop off a ham! So my friend set the “no calls” rule and it made life much nicer. Eventually Ms. High Drama stopped calling. And don’t let the OW make the drop off plans. That’s for your X to do by calling you. It doesn’t matter how old or young the “child” is. You are transferring custody and that’s between parents. Insist on it. Tell your X–you either do the calling or don’t pick her up. I don’t want her calling or texting the kids. That eliminates any need for OW contact. If your daughter thinks OW was rude, explain to her that you’ve asked her dad to her transportation and to refer those calls to you. It’ll take a few weeks but eventually you will have no shit sandwiches on the plate.

      I’ve been a stepmother. There is no need for the stepparent to facilitate custody and visitation. That gets in the way of the parent/child bond of the non-custodial parent. I intervened twice with my stepson–to tell him and his father not to trash the mother/Xwife in front of me and to tell stepson not to disrespect the woman he was dating in front of me. Other than that, it was up to his dad to do that work.

      • You don’t have to be nice around visitation. You have to follow the law, which in no way makes the OW a party to the change of custody. Follow the law.

  • FreeBird,
    I am sure that they have a lot of mutual friends that could possibly host a play date for both of them but there is no way in hell I would be having the other woman’s kid in my home. you have no idea what is going home to mum and the cheater.
    repeat after me, ‘No’. again, ‘No’, you want to hang out with your friend? ok honey how about you call dad and ask that when you are next at his house can he arrange it while you are there? do you remember dads number? let me get the phone.
    you do not have to play nice with these people, it is as if they exist in a parallel universe where respect and common sense has been eradicated.

    this is where i am stuck !!!!!!!!!!
    Although I never expect that I will ever have to host the children of my XH’s new girlfriend, we will constantly cross paths socially. Because my narcissistic X went and chased the mother of a child in our youngest daughters class at school. Her SIL is an assistant teacher in the school and the niece is a part of my 16yr old sons dance drama group, so nothing my children do at school is kept secret from their father.
    Our son who cannot stand his father for what he has done or for putting him in the position of being the one to expose his fathers adultery, is having to plead with the niece that they not tell his father about what he is doing but it is not working. We have a small close nit school community and so everyone knows everyone and it is as if they all have amnesia, because they are all doing the ‘we’re so happy for her, I know he cheated on you with men but clearly he is straight now because he is with her……… (cough. cough) and they deserve to be happy. And she has thrown all caution to the wind and has testified that God has blessed her with this special person in her life because she was willing to do what God asked of her by providing the cheater with friendship despite many people telling her not to do so.
    Also the GF’s mother is a member of my new church.
    Our kids attend the same boys group attached to the church so when those events are on where parents are included I will have to sit and watch the two of them together playing the happy couple.
    My XH and the GF outed themselves as a couple to the school by showing up together to the parent teacher information night earlier this year, which thankfully I forgot about as I was dealing with kids sports and what not. or I would have been stuck sitting in the meeting with them. I no longer attend social event at school where I think i may run into them as I just cannot handle the smug attitude of my unremorseful ex and the emotion that it invokes.

    • Thankful, if your husband had affairs with men he is not miracously going to stop. He is either gay or bisexual. You are much better off letting the two of them make their own mess.
      Your teenage son should not have to run interference for you or hide what he is doing. If your church family is this disordered you are not doing your children any favors by continuing to be a member. Surely your faith has other options for you.

      • I agree with the above comment: Thankful, if your husband had affairs with men he is not miraculously going to stop. He is either gay or bisexual.

      • Let Go,
        I fully get what you are saying. XH and the GF are grown ups and it is on them.
        My son is not running interference for me but for himself. He has no relationship with his father except for visiting with him a few hours a month. With all the connections XH now has at the school my son has no privacy everything he does is going back to his dad.
        My church is fine, I changed after d’day. But my younger two due to shared custody visit the cult every second weekend where XH still attends also now with his GF and her two kids.
        This is where she stood and testified to their God given relationship.

        We live in a small community and I am still stuck in our marital home because XH is stalling the sale and settlement, I have no idea why, and I can’t afford to move until it is done.
        My XH is a narcissism poster child, and could charm birds out of trees. He deliberately targeted the new GF, lonely divorcee, two kids with exceptional contacts in the community. Who just happens to be close friends with many of those I became friends with last year following our daughters cancer diagnoses, many of whom now keep their distance, this has sucked as I have no family support and to have lost new friendships due to his involment with the new GF is just ……..Aargh
        My life is such a fucking mess. Seriously if I had the means I would move to mars because meh will not be far enough.

  • I really feel for all the folks here who have to co-parent with these narcissistic fuckwits! If there is anything good about wasting your entire youth with one and being discarded like yesterday’s trash when you have crossed the finish line of raising children- this is it.

    When your children are adults you can go No Contact with the fuck wits and that’s a beautiful thing!

    I would follow CL’s advice. Your house, your rules. I would be nervous having her over anyway. If she gets hurt its your fault. Better to anger your daughter a little. She will get over it eventually.

  • Kudos to Freebird for divorcing the dude when he was not in full compliance with reconciliation.

    Today’s topic is something that I, as I chump, would find challenging.

    At the same time, one big lesson in all of this is that watching out for myself and keeping myself healthy has to be far more important to me. So I need to learn to interpret these challenges as opportunities for empowerment, as evidence that I am leading my own life now. (Easy to type, perhaps harder to do).

    I saw a nice quote the other day (maybe not 100% in line with today’s topic, but close):

    “Being honest may not get you a lot of FRIENDS but it’ll always get you the RIGHT ONES.” (taken from AmazingiGrace on twitter)

  • “Sorry, daughter, OW daughter can’t come over to play at our home because I would be responsible for for her and if something should happen to her, they may fault me and I can’t accept that responsibility at this time. I “am glad she is your friend and you can have fun with her at your dad’s house.”

    (I am sure in a few years OW will be on to her next “host” and you will not have to worry about the future.)

    I am so sorry you have to deal with this. He is a cold SOB to put you in this situation and the OW is no better. They are looking for free babysitting.

    • I’ll bet the loser OW considers it’s “free babysitting” when your daughter sees her FATHER and she wants quid pro quo.

      Damn how I hate it when the cheaters involve the kids in their skein.

  • Freebird, this OW has already been divorced twice and she’s in her early 20s. She’s not going to be around for long. Once she dumps your ex, she’s not going to let her daughter play with your daughter. Problem solved. I give it 2 years, tops.

    • Calamity and Elizabeth nail it. This woman has a terrible track record with men for someone so young. In a couple of years, Freebird, your XH will have more gray hairs and OW will start hanging around someone younger who also has deep pockets.

  • The “Special Savior Stud” thing:

    Why oh why do they think they are so special?

    Fucktard’s OW#1 was in an “open marriage.” [Stupid me knew about OW#1’s proclivities, and even knew about most of the other (non-married) dick she was servicing, but didn’t know she was servicing HIS dick for far too long.]

    Stupid fucktard, however, thought he and OW#1’s husband were the only visitors to her garden of delights. ‘Cause HE was sooo Speshull!

    Ah, the priceless look on his face when (arranging to get STD tested) I insisted he also get tested and rattled off the names of all the other men with whom he had shared her cunt and her mouth. He was stunned and horrified to find out that bunches and bunches of poles were greased in that shop. (She also tried to seduce women that we knew as well. She had even made a half-hearted attempt at seducing me.)

    (I now seriously wish I had dumped him then, but he managed to keep his pants on for 20 years after that, so I had believed “problem solved.” foolish me.)

  • The idea that our kids should be “protected” from the consequences of infidelity is a harmful myth.

    First, its an unattainable goal because no matter what you do, your kids will suffer the consequences of your spouse’s infidelity. Don’t kid yourself otherwise. Losing one possible location for play dates with one friend is nothing compared to the destruction of a family, financial devastation, etc.

    Second, learning that bad actions have consequences is a valuable lesson, in a family and life in general. A lot of cheaters never learn this lesson, which is why they so often lather, cheat, repeat.

    Third, you have to remember that these consequences are the result of hurtful choices made by the CHEATER, not the chump. Don’t buy into the trap of “The problem isn’t the cheating but your batsh*t crazy reaction to it.” The chump is just making the best of a terrible situation. And enforcing a boundary between you and someone who abused you is a reasonable and healthy thing.

    Be gentle with your kids, but for God’s sake, be real.

    • Agreed, Nomar. It is a “teachable” moment. Moral education needs to start somewhere. As long as these sort of situations are avoided or taken as the chump’s problem, we perpetuate the myth that adultery only effects the couple. It’s the cheating that caused this awkward situation. And it is not like they can’t still be friends while enforcing a boundary of not coming over to the house.

      So, agreed, be gentle AND be real.

      • “Moral education needs to start somewhere.”

        Absolutely. The price of ignoring the issue is too great; still, it’s tragic kids would have to get their moral education this way, Like getting your meteorological education by living through Hurricane Katrina.

    • If we are not honest with our children who will be.
      My XH’s supporters were disgusted when I wanted my children to know that their father had been unfaithful in the beginning I was expected to put what I wanted to tell tem in writing for approval first. There was no way in hell my XH was going to tell his children he cheated on their mother. Besides I was the one ending the marriage not him. His supporters were very firm on issues should remain between the couple and not be made public. They even instructed him not to tell his mother the truth even though he lives with her. In reflection every member of the church we attended as a family were treated like children. They were not told the truth and when I was asked I was expected to remain silent. My telling the truth has been viewed as an action of anger and disobedience.
      I never wrote down my explanation to my children and they know as much as they need to on the infidelity issue. What we do talk about more is when my daughter identifies poor or demanding behaviour by her father with the new GF and her kids. He is a narc and My daughter is one smart cookie.

  • Thanks everyone for the support and advice. This was my first post, so my letter name (Freebird) is different from my screen name. Oops.
    I had guilt with this conundrum because OW’s daughter seems like a sweet girl. I only hope one day my daughter will be able to understand.

    • Nomar, Yes, the old saying “when pigs fly” comes to mind when my disordered ex pushes “friendship” for the sake of the kids. Hell NO. I can’t get over the fact that he blew my life (and theirs) up. Freebird, I think healthy boundaries are good. She may be a sweet girl but you are under no obligation to babysit for crap people. Model integrity. Your daughter needs to know that there are limits to putting up with abusive boundary-less people. If nothing else, think of the liability. I need to be able to trust those whose children spend time at my house and under my supervision.

    • Freebird, My heart goes out to you in light of the total callous obliviousness- no, make that cruelty, of the cheater couple. Triangulation with children in the mix is contemptible. Those two are nasty-nasty, fugly brats inside and out.

    • I am glad for you FB13 that you can disassociate the child from her parentage and see her for who she is. That shows clarity of thinking.

      But it does not mean you have to have her in your home. You are acting from a place of healthy boundaries that stupid cheaters will do anything to break down because if they can get you to yield a little they will then expect a lot.

      It would not suprise me if cheater and ow were stupid enough to think, well if you will have her over for a play date why not have her for a sleep over on the night they get married. The girls are such BFF’s and everyone else will be drunk and hey you have no plans! Right? You are the responsible one after all!!

      Keep building those boundaries.

  • These thorny questions strike me as opportunities–although they are no doubt painful for people in Freebird and her daughter’s situation. But when I go back to my own youth (half a century ago, in the wild 60s), we weren’t allowed to spend time at anyone’s house until the parents had been vetted. I have no idea what her standards were, but there were people with whom I could not do “sleepovers” and whose homes I did not visit and who did not visit mine. Aside from the cheater issue, then, parents have both the right and the responsibility to determine where their kids spend time and with whom. So chumps can stand on that foundational point.

    Now, of course, if CheaterDad lives with the OW and her kid(s), and CheaterDad has home visitation, there is no way to prevent a child from visiting OW and her kid(s). But you don’t have visitation with OW’s kid, so there is no need for her to ever visit. And CL gives you the very best reason not to give in to that idea, because you don’t want to end up babysitting or acting as OW’s “friend” watching her kid. And I don’t care if the kid is 3, 13 or 18.

    The opportunities here are to sharpen your own boundaries around visitation. Deal with the X, not the former AP. AP’s kids or even step siblings can see each other during those visitations/custody days or at school. You get to make clear that all such decisions–and all the planning texts and calls–roll through you, not your children, and need to come from your X, not the OW/OM who is now a spouse or live in.

    Another opportunity is to teach kids that adult business is adult business. Arrangements around custody or visitation and decisions about what kids are allowed to do are adult decisions. And while adults take into accounts what kids want or think they want, in the end, adults need to make decisions based on their own values around character and child rearing. This serves to strengthen boundaries around the generations, which can get blurry when one parent abandons the family and the kids try to step into the vacuum. And it keeps kids out of disputes between the parents.

    And finally, it teaches kids that mothers and dads have rights and feelings, too. That the fun of playing with AP’s Kid is less important than the feelings and the rights of the chumped parent. In that way, they will be better at setting boundaries to protect themselves when they are adults. The other day, I heard a mother talk about how she always puts herself last. That might be modeling a pretty unhealthy way to live for the kids or it might be teaching the kids that mom is not a person with needs and feelings like the rest of us–which might lead to pretty callous disregard for the “selfless parent” now and in the future.

  • Freebird, I wouldn’t waste too much time worrying about this one, because there is no way in hell your ex and the OW are going to last long. You know the saying about predicting future behavior by looking at past behavior, and it is absolutely true. The OW in this case hasn’t had a character transplant and neither has your ex. Although your pain and trouble are absolutely not funny, what IS awesome is that I 100% guarantee you are gonna see the karma bus mow your ex down, and you aren’t even going to have to wait that long. Sit back and smile.

    As for the little girl, it’s your house, your rules. Let your ex take your daughter to play with the OW’s daughter on HIS time.

  • Freebird great advice here. Last week or so I was told on here not to feel obliged to be nice or fair because these people will just take advantage of your kindness. These people are not your friends. You owe them nothing.
    My ex rode off into the sunset and set up his shiny new life an hour from where we lived thus absolving himself of all child related responsibilities. I was horrified but perhaps that is the only silver lining to be found amongst the stupid decisions he has made during the divorce. My sympathies to those of you who have to cross close paths with the cheater and their new toys.

    • “New toys” Indeed! But not for long… Lol. Hard to wrap my head around the fact that he was in bed with me one minute and in her bed the next. What kind of person betrays their spouse/kids? Who the fuck does this, right!?! My ex married six months after our divorce, guess he needed to convince himself that blowing up our marriage was justified. Poor sausage. Wouldn’t want there to be a vacancy. All that right there? Justification to ditch the loser forever.

      • My STBX is hanging around OW more and more as divorce gets closer and closer. I told my mom that he has been spending more nights with her. My mom wondered how he had the energy (STBX hates doing anything on work nights, and often cancelled social events immediately prior to the event). I reminded her that STBX now lacks his Plan B, so he needs to cement the relationship with Schmoopie.

        His brother, who cheated on his first wife with a woman only slightly above legal age and only a couple of years older than his own daughters, recently divorced after Wife #2 came out as gay. Fast forward a couple of months and he’s already in a new relationship.

        I think that these cheater types can’t function without having the external validation that a BF/GF gives them, and of course once they’re outed as cheaters, they need to deal with image control, so they have to show their cheating was justified, and they do this by marrying their APs in short order.

        • KB-“I think that these cheater types can’t function without having the external validation that a BF/GF gives them, and of course once they’re outed as cheaters, they need to deal with image control, so they have to show their cheating was justified, and they do this by marrying their APs in short order.”

          You are 100% correct with this!

          • Yep. I used to ask the ex what would happen if he was on a deserted island by himself since he never could be alone for five seconds. Now I figure he would triangulate the pineapples.

      • Well, these stupid cheaters certainly can’t live on their own. Jackass bounced from Wife 2 to Mom to various married APs to me to MOW, back to Mom and now presumably to the MOW he’s courting on FB. There’s always a kibble supply and someone to “love bomb,” including his mother.

  • Freebird, At five I understood that I did not have to invite everyone to my birthday party just because my friends wanted me to. I knew who I liked and who I didn’t. At eleven IMHO your daughter will understand this.

  • Freebird, you write that he is forcing you to do this but his ability to force you to do anything is null and void. (Just like his brain.)

  • Maybe I’m not the most sensitive parent, but if the OW is forcing her progeny on my daughter, I’d say:

    “Look honey, I was married to your Dad and we were a happy family. Then X’s mom came along and stole Dad from me. It pulled our family apart. Do you see why I feel awful about having her daughter come to our house? Why should I be used as their babysitter? I’m sorry but you simply are not allowed to invite her to my house, play with her at Dad’s if you must”

    Then daughter will blurt out (while at Dad’s house) that OW Progeny is not allowed to come to her house. That oughtta set off a minor shit storm. So be it. I don’t understand why kids have to be “sheltered” from reality. They certainly know how to get at the truth on their own anyway. Research shows that kids who are not told the truth about divorce often grow up feeling lied to.

  • The other side of this is when you step-families and Cheater is caught with OWhore who his child already knew from before we met. Now that our step family is in ruins due to his infidelity the problem comes for the kids that consider each of us their other parent. One child has no idea what happened, except that “we broke up and Daddy moved out” and since he has only 4 days a month with his child, the child has no idea that OWhore is back in the picture. I miss my step-child and haven’t had contact (until approved by mom) since he left as I respect the mother. My child, although a young adult, unfortunately has been drug through the nightmare with me. What a great example to show how relationships work. Cheating, Lying and stealing is how to treat your spouse. NOT!!

    So, I can understand not wanting to have anything to do with the OW or her child, at no fault of the child.

  • My father had a sister who died many years ago. At a family reunion about 15 years ago, I met her kids…they told me that their father “dated” women when he was married to their mother. He would bring his date’s kids over for her to babysit while he went on his adulterous outings and if she refused, he beat her. His beatings likely contributed to her early death but he was never held accountable. She is our Chump-Angel and I honor her in her suffering. Aunt Virginia, I love you even though I never met you. Send us strength.

    • “Aunt Virginia, I love you.”

      How fitting that the motto of the state that shares your aunt’s name is “Sic Semper Tyrannis” (*Thus Always to Tyrants”), a rallying cry invoked for centuries against the abuse of power (though hijacked by John Wilkes Booth). If there’s any justice, Aunt Virginia’s tyrannis is surely up to his cowardly eyebrows in a lake of fire.

    • And look at how her story has become part of your own movement to gaining a life. She didn’t make it out, but you did. And that indeed honors her life.

  • I made it clear to my adult children and granddaughter that it was inappropriate to engage with a woman who knowingly had an affair with their father while he was still married and provided details of her lack of character. I sent copies of her arrest records to my children, son in law and other grandmother. Given her drug addiction, lack of control, history of aggression, verbal abuse, and domestic violence I do not want her anywhere near my beautiful granddaughter. She too has a personality disorder and is a time bomb ready to explode. They recognize their father is a narcissist as he used each one of them to gain credibility after DDay. He can no longer live up to the good simple guy image he projected while abusing his family. He makes contact to meet his needs only. They also see me thriving and living better. Boundaries need to be set as well as providing the TRUTH. The disordered hang themselves and who fucking cares. They deserve the shit life they thought was better. I keep up with all the responsibilities a loving mother and grandmother provided. Cheaters have nothing to offer and when boundaries are strong they crawl back under the rock they call life.

  • I am fortunate he made it so easy. He does all the work/heavy lifting for the first time in his life. He has burned bridges he can never repair. My children SEE and understand just how sick his behavior has been throughout my marriage. Finally, he has to accept the consequences of his behavior as I work toward Meh! My children are cheering me onward. I have always instilled the difference of classy VS trashy to my daughters and granddaughter. Before DDay I lived in pain and isolation. It was lonely providing an asshole with the props of normalcy. Working on myself has a return on the investment. Staying with a cheater is a soul sucking exhausting venture. It DOES get better. Striving to set boundaries and having NO contact allowed me to detox from the biggest asshole imaginable. It DOESN’T matter how old you are because each day of freedom makes you stronger. Yes, I struggle financially! Yes, it is painful! The struggle made me set the bar higher. I am finally happy and single.

    • I am too close to DDay. There has been no contact since then, but then again, now he doesn’t have to hide OWhore….oh wait….the rest of the world didn’t know about his cheating ways. So now he is just showing that he is living in his little apartment and staying quiet. But SURPRISE! His lies will catch up with him. I guess I just want to know “Why?”. The last words from him were “I Love you”. Then DDay happened and nothing, not so much as an I’m sorry I hurt you, lied to you, lied to the kids, stole, etc. Why do they get to go on with their lives pretending that none of this happened and we chumps have our worlds demolished and have to pick up the shards?

      • WhatAChump2015, no one can apply logic to a cheating asshole. Many chumps like myself are selfless, forgiving, trusting, caring individuals who expend all out energies trying to fix entitled narcissists who justify their behavior. We love too much. The pain after discard is unimaginable especially when they have no remorse, I just wrote in my journal about a message he left me in May 7th saying love you. He called her May 3rd and got a hotel with her soon after. Why? Because ther are disordered. Normal people don’t leave their wife and children in this manner. Finding a therapist that understands narcissistic relationships is important. He helped me recognize the patterns of abuse they use to maintain control. Gathering records, getting a good lawyer and filing are positive steps to protect yourself and children.

      • WhatAChump, in a shitload of hard things, nothing is harder than trying to figure out why they say “I love you” one minute and text the AP the next. CL’s explanation about kibbles and cake is the only thing that makes sense. Disordered cheaters are wired like normal human beings. I am quite sure that when they say “I love you,” they mean it. But those words don’t mean the same thing to them as it does to us. In some cases, like my own, the Cheater just can’t do the things that normal people do. Every time he gets into a commitment, he starts undermining the relationship until there is literally nothing left. I think they are often mimicking the emotions and behaviors of normal people around them but there is nothing behind that facade. Where you have depth, character, strong emotions and commitment, they have a black hole that needs to be worshipped. It kills their every chance at a decent life, sadly, but what’s worse is the damage they do to people like us.

  • OT (off topic)

    Happy Ex-Spouse Day, everyone! (according to Jezebel, that’s today’s holiday. OK (sure.)

    Celebrate safely! No mailing flaming bags of dog turds, now…..

    slàinte mhath!

    • Thanks NamedforVera,

      I will celebrate with a big fruit salad! Raspberries and strawberries are on sale. Mix with chopped apples, bananas, whipped cream, fruit cocktail, walnuts, rolled oats and sweetened yogurt.
      Wish you were here to share!

      “Every day above ground is a good day” ♥

  • Maybe it makes me an unreformed chump, but I guess I would allow the innocent child to play at my home. If any communication was necessary with her mother, then she could be the one to call her mother–not me.
    I feel sorry for the girl.

    Time to go home? You call your mother.
    I wanna take you out for ice cream? You call your mother for permission.


    I just think there is no way that a child wouldn’t feel somehow at fault for being rejected by an adult. She didn’t do anything wrong. If she consistently broke rules or acted in an untrustworthy way? Then I have grounds to refuse to allow her over.

    That doesn’t mean that I would be the child’s primary or regular care-giver.

    I think you can refuse nicely to not volunteer to babysit for lengths of time–you can be inconveniently busy. But to tell the girl that she can’t come inside your house like she’s some sort of leper?

    I can’t handle the meanness of it. You might be the woman in her life who teaches her grace.

    That’s just me and my opinion.

    • I do also think you need to establish your own boundaries, and teach your daughter to do the same.
      If this is an issue of the girl being dumped at your house, and/or your daughter feels obligated to include her at her sanctuary because of guilt or manipulation by her father–then, no.

      But if your daughter truly loves this girl and the girl is kind, and your daughter wants to have her over to your home? It just seems like the decent thing to allow for a few hours.

    • I respectfully disagree. I would not host this child in my home (as innocent as she may be) because of her disordered parents. I would not trust that these people would ever do the right thing. (Past behavior, and all that.) For example, what happens if the child has an accident? Do you really think those “parents” won’t do something questionable? They have already shown who they are and what they are capable of. If that child ever gets hurt at Freebird’s house and in her care who knows what these people will do. I have seen allegations of child abuse leveled at child care workers that were innocent and the affect this had on the families involved was atrocious. I just believe that it’s too much of a liability to have a child in my home whose parents I don’t trust.

      • Miss Sunshine I disagree. Children do understand boundaries. At 11 and in middle school she understands the ‘ rules’ and if presented to her in an undramatic , unemotional way she wont question. Much like… We line up over here for lunch. Its just a rule. It keeps order and there isnt much more to it. If mom head is cursing the ground dad and his GF live on… And starts comparing this little girl to the short comings of the OW… Then her daughter will figure out pretty quick that its driven from a different place.
        There is nothing wrong with boundaries… For the right reasons. Even in family. It demonstrates to her daughter that people are responsible and accountable for their actions and demonstrates self worth. I myself had to stop my MIL from coming over. It was painful. But i am done ‘ putting up’ to make peace. Done. Did i stop my child from loving or communicating with her grandmother …. No. What i did was reinforce that this is my house… And my life is to be respected. Period.
        Children are always the victims and should be allowed to be children. She will learn to enjoy her friends time at her dads. and she will learn to enjoy things at moms. No drama needed.
        No brain…. No headache.


        • I think kids involved when cheating breaks up a home are well aware that there is something wrong about the cheating. The worst thing in the world is to teach a kid that doing something terrible like breaking up a person’s marriage and home has no consequences. I think it’s perfectly fine if chumps are willing to entertain the AP’s child. I just don’t think that it is mean to not want anyone connected with the AP in your home. It’s just consequences. If the AP was a burglar who broke in and stole your TV, you wouldn’t want the kid in the house. That doesn’t mean I would be rude to her if I saw her at a school or neighborhood function; I just would not want the OW’s kid in my house, and if the kids can meet at the movies or at the Cheaterpants house or at a school function, that’s up to them. If the chump doesn’t mind, if it doesn’t create pain or a trigger bad feelings, fine. For me, having a member of OW’s family in my house would be like washing myself with steel wool. If a chump feels like it’s a shit sandwich, it is. And we shouldn’t have to feel guilty saying so and drawing that boundary.

    • I would be worried about liability. What if the OW’s kid broke her leg at your place, or even chipped a tooth? (yes, it happens, ask me how I know!) Do you really want to get swept into litigation with the OW? I cannot imagine anything more destabilizing or mind-fucking.

      Not worth the risk, when your kid can have a perfectly nice play date at dad’s house.

      My $.02

  • Its so wierd that cheaters merge worlds…Idiot gave Tweeny our marital bed and my old car….amongst other things… My fishing rod. Then sends our kid home wearing Tweenies clothing. …. Numerous times. Its just fucking wierd. Like so fucking wierd. He stopped sending her home in her clothing after I bagged her clothes for the goodwill. Who the fuck dresses their kid up in their GF clothes?

    • They really are very very sick. My daughter says it whenever the topic of her father comes up. It is the only way to explain the chronic cheating, and even more astonishing desire to “merge” the two worlds– his family and his whores– both preD-Day and post D-Day.

  • I would not be surprised if this Freebird’s daughter’s friend learns some of the techniques that her mother, the OW, has quite deftly applied to men and people in general.

    Also, she may be used for information gathering for use by OW and Freebird’s ex.

    Freebird, just remember that one of these days your daughter will understand the choice you made. She will be better for it.

  • When I was 8 my mom got in a fight with another mom; ended the friendship and I wasn’t allowed to be friends with her daughter anymore. She made the rule and I followed it. I was bummed but I had other friends.
    You do have the power to screen your daughter’s friends. Just tell her why in an un-emotional way. She’ll get over it.

  • >