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It’s “Complicated”

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cheater_overlapOne thing that baffles me about cheating is that people think it is “complicated.” There’s even a relationship designation for that on online dating sites — you aren’t married or single, no, you’re in a state of “it’s complicated.” Apparently, infidelity is so full of nuance and subtlety that only enlightened sophisticates can understand it. If you judge cheating as wrong, you’re just not looking at it correctly. It’s like one of those optical puzzles. You may just see gray dots and squiggles signifying nothing. But no! Look harder! If you squint long enough, it reads — “I’m not a bad person.” Can’t you see that?!

You don’t see that? Well, clearly you lack the intelligence and open-mindedness necessary to reconcile deceit with good character. Maybe you lack compassion for the “broken” people who cheat. Clearly you failed to consider all the extenuating circumstances that led to having an affair. The blame for this can be shared. But you don’t see that with your one-size fits all approach to cheaters. Everyone’s a baddie!

Chump Lady is simple minded.  If you are married, don’t fuck people you aren’t married to. If you’re single, don’t fuck married people.

(Okay, if you’re technically married, but you filed DIVORCE papers, this doesn’t apply to you.)

My cheating ex always used to like to say  ” The truth is somewhere in between.” A pretty good motto for a serial cheater. To him, truth was situational. Fluid. It really depended how you looked at it. “Did I mean it when I said I loved you? Well… yes, in that moment I meant it.” And then 20 minutes later, when he was waddling off to his next dalliance, he did not mean it. The truth was somewhere in between. How convenient.

“It’s all very complicated” is a convenient ruse for crappy behavior. If there were actual ambiguity, cheaters wouldn’t need to hide what they were doing. There would be no need for secrets, and hidden cell phones, and clandestine dating profiles if this were kosher or open for debate. The fact that it is wrong, (or perceived as wrong by us dim-witted moralists), means that they hide it.

It’s only after a cheater is busted that they want to spin the situation as “complicated.” So long as you’re in the dark, there is no reason to discuss it. But once it is exposed, it’s in a cheater’s best interest to muddy those waters.

Moral murk… the cheater’s friend.

This column ran previously. Feel free to comment!

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Can we also add, if you are in an unmarried “exclusive and committed” relationship, also, don’t secretly fuck other people. Not to demean anyone’s marriage vows, but this deception is bad as well. And yes, direct quote from my cheating ex, “things are complicated with me… always have been.” Said in a pensive, intellectual oozing superiority.

    • I agree TheMuse, I didn’t want kids and I didn’t want marriage. I was with ex for 12 years before he talked me into marrying him. So far as I’m concerned a commitment to be together is sufficient. And I really wish I’d stuck to my “no marriage” guns, if I had he wouldn’t have gotten so much of my money.

        • He wanted a lock on me, the house, the money, and to make it harder to leave him. Yes I think he did it with intent to secure a “safe” place for himself.

          • hear hear! my asswipe ex pushed and pushed for marriage, relentlessly! I wouldn’t do it and I am thankful everyday that I didn’t take that step. I had doubts and that gut feeling that something was off, even though he acted like I was the love of his life. He was constantly mooching, crying poverty daily, had nothing but debt, yet kept spending money he didn’t have on his shit, I on the other hand have a beautiful home, beautiful top of the line furnishings, vehicles and I have no debt and savings. He declared to me from day one that his ex-wife cheated on him and that is something he would never EVER tolerate and we would be done, right there and then if I ever cheat on him. Well, when I finally discovered that he was a lying, cheating fuckwit prick from day one he tried to tell me that “we were not married”, not a big deal, every men does it etc. Then when I dumped his ass he tried to stake a claim to half of everything that I own and I paid for, claiming we were in a committed relationship! Then the fuckface and his low life family realized that they didn’t have a leg to stand on and that still burns their ass! Its funny to me because its only when it suits/benefits them we are in a committed relationship! and, That piece of paper doesn’t mean shit if you are not truly committed in your heart and mind.

            Boy, Cake, lots of lots of cake! with whip cream, cherries and all that extra chocolate drizzle for them! just for them, how convenient!

            Anyway, I am happy to report that my son and I are thriving now without the lying, cheating, disgusting fuckwit, while he is back to the his sewer where he belongs!

            PS: DAT, that’s exactly why he did it, with intent, he is a scum, just like the rest!

    • You sure can Muse ! Deception/cheating, whether married or not, has the same devastation for the one who was betrayed.

    • Yes–I was ever bit as serious about my commitment to Jackass as I was when I was married. If you’ve made an agreement to be monogamous and faithful, if you’ve pooled resources and made long-term future plans, if your partner makes decisions with major implications (change jobs, move, tap the 401K, buy a house) based on your agreement, then that’s a commitment.

    • Cheaters and APs love to speak in popular cliches. It makes them feel as though they have the moral approval of the rest of society when they speak in truisms.

      • Agreed.

        When I pointed out to my future husband that he treated his so-called friend better than treated me while our relationships were running parallel (this the woman that he claimed he didn’t like all that much), his reply was: “Well, I have higher standards for someone I choose to be my girlfriend.”

        Once, I got over the twisted logic of that, I then said:” Well, I want to be JUST a friend as well. Then I can go f*ck other men while you pay for my bar tabs and taxi fares as well.”

    • Same here. And then I have the added pleasure of people questioning why I’m so upset about things. “People break up all the time.” As if someone I was casually dating called things off. These people think that because we weren’t married there was no commitment.

      • Yeah, this is why I shorthand to having been married 16 years, when in truth we were only officially married for 6. As far as I’m concerned (and many common-law states), that much time “counts” as marriage, or at least I thought so when he said he wanted to grow old with me….

      • We lived together and raised my children as a family for sixteen years and co-own the house. Ex was fond of telling people we were “as good as married,” when they would ask when we were finally going to tie the knot. I dodged a big bullet there or he would be asking for alimony in addition to the 85% of the equity in the house that I paid 90% of the cost.

        • It’s only dumb luck that we weren’t married. She got considerable financial aid for being a single mother. And she had already been married twice, so I didn’t see much point in getting married: it clearly wasn’t going to keep her around if she wanted out. We had discussed putting her on the mortgage, but the refinance under HARP didn’t allow changing the names on the original. I raised her son for 5 years and then didn’t even get a goodbye from him. I read some of the stories on here and while I realize it’s not a competition, I feel fortunate that I didn’t lose more than I did and hope for the best for all of us.

          • Losing a stepson is a big deal WhichWay. It takes a special kind of person to love and raise someone else’s child. I’m sorry for the loss. This giant clusterf#@$ of awful is ALL on your ex. Married or not you lost a family. 🙁

            To those of you who weren’t married, marriage is not the qualification for not being cheated on. Cheaters are simply gaslighting you in saying otherwise and anyone else who says that to you got hit with a stupid stick and deserves to have the insensitive smacked out of them. Commitment is commitment. And every one of them knew better.

            • Thank you for this, Kat. Your words are really healing. WhichWayDidSheGo, I can unfortunately relate to the lack of closure you mention with your stepson, and I’m so sorry you had to go through that, too. One of the hardest things for me has been losing the connection with my remaining stepdaughter. The summer before D-day and the split, she told me privately that she was ashamed of how her dad was treating me and that I deserved so much more. She certainly wasn’t privy to anything that went on behind closed doors, and it’s humiliating to know his devaluation of me was that obvious. Anyway, after I left, she didn’t respond to my attempts to reach out, and given the circumstances who could blame her? The whole thing was just one giant clusterfuck. I’m finally at a place where I can let go, but I think it will always hurt. I truly thought of her as my child and love her very much still. I’ve told the truth to my own kids, and if SD ever came and wanted to know what really happened, I’d tell her as gently as I could. For now, I respect the distance she’s placed between us, even if it turns out to be permanent. Her dad is all she has left; unless she makes a conscious choice otherwise, she deserves to think well of him.

              It really does suck, though. I don’t think I’d ever be able to attempt another blend.

            • That you all for validating my loss. What we all say here is so very true – if you haven’t gone through it, you can’t understand it. It’s hard not to lash out either verbally or otherwise when someone doesn’t seem to grok the loss I feel.

              I felt and displayed maturity I didn’t even realize I had – how many people invite their partner’s ex to stay at his home to allow spending more money on the child rather than a hotel? I didn’t do it for brownie points, but I’m proud of it nonetheless. And I loved mentoring my stepson. It was amazing to watch him mimic some of my behaviors and sayings in the pursuit of my approval. It was a huge responsibility and an honor.
              His previous stepfather had required the kid to call him “dad”; at one point my stepson asked if he could call me dad, and I told him that for a dollar he could call me anything he wanted. He tried on dad for a while, but because he was so used to calling me by my first name, it didn’t stick. That was fine – I wanted my stepson to feel at home and free to be himself, not what I wanted him to be.

              I don’t know if he saw the abandonment coming or not. I certainly didn’t, and I was given no time to prepare for the loss. Anytime my ex and I would have a disagreement he would chime in to say that he didn’t want to move again. Too bad kid; your mom had needs of her own.

          • very good you couldn’t put her on the mortgage, my ex got me to do that 5 years before he convinced me to marry him. I’ll grant you, he was patient about what he was doing. That doesn’t mean you don’t suffer my friend, even if you dodged a financial bullet. Jedi Hugs!

            • My big regret is putting him on the deed, as he only ended up paying less than 10% over 12 years. Now it’s costing me thousands in legal and accountant fees to try to get him off and I am going on 2 years since DDay. I put him on the deed because I loved him and was faithful and devoted to him, and believed him when he said he loved me and I was the only woman for him. Turns out he was a serial cheater from day one. And I can’t even tell people “I’m going through a divorce”, I have to all it a “breakup” which certainly leads many people to do the minimizing thing. In the end, so glad I found out after 16 years as opposed to longer. And glad I didn’t marry him.

          • This sounds like my cheater in spades. 6 years together and raising our kids together as a blended family. All the lies….And the mountains of them could rival Mt. Kilimanjaro! He has been no contact since Dday and has been making his slutshack for he and OWhore. Lying, Cheating and Stealing from me/us. He knew all along that he was cheating (I missed the memo) and the last words texted to me were “I miss you too & I love you” (right between the messages to OWhore where the nearest sex toy store was located. EWWWW.

            I also offered to put him on the house after years of it being an issue between us(he couldn’t qualify when we bought it years before after I sold MY HOUSE). Little did I know that he was already cheating so I guess I dodged the bullet of having to share any of the house with him. (I was such a chump that I thought of it was our home and that we were building a life to grow old in….I guess we were in different relationships).

            Losing the family unit is hard. All he has told his child is that “we broke up”, REALLY? Is that all you have? My child is older and saw the entire disaster unfold. He sent a pointed text to the cheater telling him off. All we have heard is crickets. I miss my step child and am awaiting to hear if her mom will allow us to have continued contact. And these cheaters don’t even care about what happens to anyone else as long as they are “HAPPY”. WTF. What great role models for the kids? Good Moral Compass…Uh, NOT. Honest….Yeah, right. Integrity…Not a chance. WINNER!

            Where do these people spawn from? 6 weeks into this hell and cannot even begin to wrap my mind around the duplicity of these tards. There must be a manual.

    • Yeah, before we were married, my ExH used “Technically I AM single, as we’re not married.” as an answer to me asking why he had ‘single’ listed on his profile on his band’s website. ….so many red flags.

    • // , This comment leads me to suspect that “Moral murk… the cheater’s friend.” isn’t the right phrasing.

      I’ve seen actual cheaters try to deal with moral murk, and their heads explode. There’s no in-depth discovery or comparisons to similar situations, “Just tell me the right answerrrrr.”

      No, I think their morals are very clear-cut and dried. They’re counting on others to assume that they’re not.

      Right and Wrong are Outmoded
      Advantage is Its Own Reward
      Portray the best possible Image.
      Every “Shouldn’t” is Really a “Can”

        • For those of us who have experienced evil in our lives it is recognizable. Children who have experienced it depend on us to protect them. There is a difference between someone displaying narcissism and one who is evil to the core. A severely abused child wrote the words “the one who knows” on a card he made for me. It is obvious and recognizable.

    • Haha. This is so funny! I got a text just this week from my soon-to-be-EX where he wrote: IT’S COMPLICATED.

  • Agreed. It is not complicated. What gets to me is how pastors and Church leaders (not to mention “Christian” cheaters) can miss it so badly. The Bible is rather clear on this one. It is prohibited in the BIG TEN COMMANDMENTS after all! You would think divorce was listed there instead of adultery sometimes.

    Plus, I suspect cheaters think they are so special and tell themselves the “complicated” lies as well. A fog of lies and self-deception is their fog. Pathetic. Besides, the complicated excuses give the RIC an in to make money after all.

    But some people just can’t handle the truth.

    • A big Amen to that, it seems Church leaders are more worried about keeping toxic relationships together than actually addressing the sin or healing for the victims. Felt like I had a scarlet “D” on me after I filed for divorce.

      • Church leaders who are themselves cheaters… well…. don’t ya know they have to justify themselves? It’s the victim’s fault that the cheater MUST stray. Marriage is supposed to be for life. Don’t you know that? It doesn’t matter how the spouse treats you. Stay in the marriage so the assholes have that “shelter” and the appearance of a respectable life.

        Gee whiz … I have learnt so much…!

        How many genuine people are there left ?????
        I feel like my soul has been crushed will I ever recover ???

        • Lioness, I just want to give you a warm hug, a box of tissues – and perhaps a bowl of soup…anything comforting – because that’s what us Chumps do – thank God! Your soul feeling crushed (or put in a blender set on puree, or sucked dry, etc….) is part and parcel of this experience. It’s an abomination – what has happened to you. I suspect you’ve heard the phrase “time will heal” ad nauseum, but it does have truth in it. Time, NO CONTACT (if at all possible), a good Attorney if needed, and consider leaving your church if this kind of non-sense is going on there. My experience mirrors yours in some key points. I left that sham of a church, and found another one. So far, so good. (Though it’s still on “probation” as far as I’m concerned until it’s proven itself.) Now, when someone I have just met proclaims their devotion to Christianity (or any spiritual path), I no longer automatically give them the benefit of my good opinion.

        • Lioness,

          I agree with BR here. Find another church that is more supportive. I left my old denomination for another that has been incredibly supportive or me. God does not blame the faithful spouse one bit for the sins of the adulterous spouse. A good pastor and church knows this and speaks in such veins on these matters.

          Blessings and hugs!
          DM

        • I heard it all. Every excuse. It tore me apart. Soon to be x slept/sleeping with a client. He’s a therapist. 25 sessions and they found each other.

    • It is prohibited twice in the 10 commandments: 7.”You shall not commit adultery,” 9.”You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” Just some random thoughts about what’s “Complicated” and the some of the 10 Commandments: 6.”You shall not murder.” If you do – you will be punished with prison and possible execution. Not too complicated. 8.”You shall not steal.” If you do – you will be punished by fines/jail/prison. Again, not too complicated. 7.”You shall not commit adultery.” If you do – you will only ruin your whole family. Adultery is no big deal if it was ‘justified,’ right? Our laws, only follow SOME of the 10 Commandments. If your husband commits adultery, Fuckface just gets to walk his sorry (probably not THAT sorry) ass away. Cheating asswipe gets to ‘pat himself on the back’ with his HALF (and possibly the OW), while the wife and family who trusted and confided in this jackass, gets to walk away broken, hurt, and confused. THAT is what is ‘complicated!’

      • “Fuckface just gets to walk his sorry (probably not THAT sorry) ass away. Cheating asswipe gets to ‘pat himself on the back’ with his HALF (and possibly the OW), while the wife and family who trusted and confided in this jackass, gets to walk away broken, hurt, and confused. THAT is what is ‘complicated!’”

        Spot On Lady Strange!! ^^^THIS^^^

        I will NEVER forgive Xhole for what he has done to our son…..N.E.V.E.R.

        • STBX weaves a story of how we grew apart and minimizes what he has done. He then has the gall to say he wonders what his college-age children think of him.
          What the **** do you think they think of you, Xhole! You threw their mother to the curb and took up with a stranger that you allowed in our family unit. All to pursue his ‘happiness’. You bet it’s complicated. Those of us left behind can barely breathe a few ‘uncomplicated’ breaths in a row without anxiety and fear and feeling broken.
          Just when our young adults are learning how to be a good man and woman, he shows them such a sterling example of letting one’s penis guide horrendous behaviour.
          I shall NEVER forgive this Xhole for what he has done, either. NEVER.

          • {{hugs}} to you lifeandlearn !! Cheaters NEVER understand the toll they’re actions have taken on their kids, I would never want to be the kind of person who would deliberately hurt my kids, shatter their world and hearts. They then spin and weave their own stories to try to justify what they’ve done.
            My XH sounds like a twin of yours, and I flat out told him on DDay that I would never forgive him for bringing that piece of garbage anywhere near our kids lives. He will never realize how he destroyed the kids image of him, they lost all respect for him, unlike their friends they can’t even look up to him, can’t turn to him for advice or an ear to listen because they have no respect for any trait, values or choices he’s made.

          • Yes, yes, yes. I agree on all counts. Ohhhh and then he’s mad at me, and it’s my fault the kids don’t speak to him…..

      • I’m already seeing posts places about how the constitution was based on the commandments and how the commandments should be more front and centre during the election. A good question for political candidates who profess their deep and abiding Christianity would be to ask if they would push for adultery to be made a crime.

        • I have no desire to see adultery criminalized. There are too many people imprisoned in this country already. I do believe adultery should be a major factor in property distribution, alimony and child custody/support. Many judges refuse to consider adultery in dissolution proceedings and chumps get victimized twice. One of my friends had to give her cheating X half of her substantial retirement, even though the cheater basically refused to work during the marriage.

          We have thrown the baby out with the bath water. I am all for making the process of divorce easily available, because no one should be bound to a cheater (who would only manipulate the process to their advantage, anyway). BUT cheaters should not prosper when they intentionally destroy a marriage!

          • I agree completely Violet. They need to put some ‘fault’ (somehow) back into ‘no-fault’ divorce. “No-Fault” divorce is good for those who just no longer get along and mutually decide to divorce. Otherwise – these assholes who cheat, lie, steal from thier own families should be held (in some part) accountable for destroying them. But they are not at all held accountable because ‘fair and just’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘morally’ fair – it is more ‘financially’ fair. And I don’t even agree with the ‘financially’ fair….

        • Actually the Constitution was based on English Common Law, which itself was based on Pagan Roman law. However, i agree with Violet that infidelity should be factored into custody and alimony decisions.

          • I completely agree on that too, though I understand why it’s not. In any other contract though, I’m pretty sure there are detrimental consequences for breaking it, but it’s not usually the case with marriage.

            What I meant above was not that I personally thought it should be criminalized, but that it would be an interesting question to ask of politicians who profess the importance of abiding by the ten commandments.

    • DM, it seems like these days people think they can just choose their “favorite 7” Commandments and think they are doing just great! Hey! Look at all the ones I didn’t do!! Pretty piousness for the new millennium.

      Reminds of some of those in prison who robbed someone at gunpoint, but say they wouldn’t rape anyone, or one who raped someone but would not dream of murder, etc. It is like pick your crime and judge everyone else’s. “All we did was love each other and make love, is that a crime???” Like the hand of God was on them when they brought such loving kindness to another. (while married or wholly committed to someone else) Utter BS!

        • When I asked my cheating, Catholic, husband how he felt about breaking a commandment he told me it didn’t matter because God put her in his life for him to fall in love with her. Well, isn’t that special?

          • I know how you feel Hopeful Cynic. The Past(wh)or(e) that is the OW told the STBX in cards, words, whatever that God brought them together.

            Of course God ignores his own commandments to facilitate relationships because that’s just how God rolls – if you’ve manage to recreate him into your image and likeness and have decided to invoke him in order to justify or rationalize your immorality and violation of his commandments.

            • My cheating STBX describes his AP as “God fearing” as if this was a desirable trait in such a partner. Unbelievable. A woman who partakes in an affair with a man that she knows is married can be “God fearing” and admired as such by her AP!
              Invoking this label to her certainly justifies the violation of one of the commandments.
              But that’s ok, because it’s …..complicated.

              • My ex, who cheated on me for over 15 years with two co-workers, and lied about everything big and small (including making our lives and the family life of our children as they knew it a lie), touts himself as a man of “integrity.” I mean, it’s downright astonishing. Maybe this is that “compartmentalizing” thing that sociopaths and other disordered cluster-B types do…..

            • Yep! My ex sent his whore a loving email telling her to “hang in there” and “God was guiding them!” I told him if I ever heard him invoke God in any way, shape or form to describe this “unholy Union” between him and his pig I was going to break one of the big commandments myself! Far as I know he never pulled that one again!

            • Chump Princess – YEP!! The x-whore husband kept all the bullshit cards and immature gifts the ho-worker gave him in a hidden compartment in the bed of his truck. One particular card the ho-worker gave MY then husband read: “To my husband – God doesn’t make mistakes, blah, blah, blah.” Funny. He was SOMEONE’S husband at that time, and it wasn’t YOURS, whore! Since there is ZERO originality with shallow pig whores, I also read one that he started to write, but was too lazy to finish to the ho-worker that said the same damn thing.

              I told the x whore-husband, “You know, I read the bullshit cards you two douchebags wrote to each other, and yeah, you’re right!! (while sticking my wedding finger right up in his disgusting face) GOD DOESN’T MAKE MISTAKES – BUT YOUR DUMBASS DOES!!” He was immobilized. Like he NEVER thought that HE was the wrong one. That HIS base decisions to dump 23 years with a loyal wife and abandon his kids for that married cheating pig whore JUST MIGHT BE WRONG. Dumbass.

              23 years wasted on a serial cheating douchebag. Sad. For all of us Chumps.

              • I can feel your anger. I sometimes feel the same. There are no real words to describe it… Idiots… all of them.

                My stbx isn’t even remotely religious or spiritual, but was compelled to quote Joel Osteen to his ap, the office slut.

              • A friend of mine, strict born again christian who admonished me for listening to secular music and allowing my kids to watch the wrong tv shows, justified becoming involved with a married man as God had apparently set them up. Not only that, but in His eyes they were married to each other.
                He could not leave his wife as she was too crazy and his mother had threatened suicide if he took that step so he had to stay…..he was just too soft.
                It turned out that God sucks at matchmaking as my friend finally had a talk with the crazy wife….she seemed quite sane really and explained that she had stopped counting his affairs long ago when the known number hit its teens! He had come and gone over the years but she still had a soft spot for him. If he wanted to divorce then she was fine with that if he had the money to fund it.
                Religious people will quote the bible when it suits and re-write it when it does’nt.
                Call a dandelion a rose all you like….it is still just a yellow weed that grows where it will.

              • Ugh. Loki quoted scriptures like the devil… Always in his favor. (granted, at one time his faith may have been genuine… who knows?)
                A sick twist was how OW hated his religiosity. She would brag to people when she would get Mr. ShinyWhite to do bad.
                It makes my stomach turn…

        • LOL – Yeah, I envision those sad-sausages imagining the Ten Commandments like it’s a Buffet Restaurant. Just grab your tray and choose your favorites: “Well, let’s see…I’ll load my plate with the scalloped potatoes, meatloaf, and dinners rolls, but….let’s pass on that green gelatin stuff…And let’s leave room for plenty of DESSERT!” (Of course.)

          • Yeah BR; it reminds me of when people give up something like Aardvark livers for Lent! Gosh, I hope I can somehow get through it for 40 days, I will have to go home a new way and not pass that “Aardvarks Is Us” outlet, that would be sheer temptation.

    • DM – you always have such great advice & I enjoy your articles. I take comfort in knowing that it’s not gonna be “complicated” on judgement day. Not one complication at all about the deception, adultery, betrayal of loyal spouses, coveting a neighbor’s wife, making these whores “idols” in their lives, hurting innocent children & destroying their families, lying, etc. Nope. No complication on that day at all.

  • My STBX changed his Facebook status to “it’s complicated” after I found out about his affair. We were supposed to be reconciling but he was actually still in touch with her, and set up a new Facebook account under a different name to chat with her. I think the status was just to assure the GF that he was just pretending with me and to gain sympathy. After I told him to leave, he changed it back to married and supposedly broke off the relationship. I think she must have finally dumped him so I won by default, ugh. So glad to be out of that mess and dating someone that appreciates me.

    • In my opinion, anyone over twelve with a Facebook status of It’s Complicated has a problem. Just my opinion, but I think it’s stupid. What is it even supposed to mean anyway??? You can’t even figure out if you are in a relationship??? I have noticed it’s a favorite of Attention Whores. They put out some cryptic status, then expect everyone to jump on and figure out what’s Wrong. I call them “The … ”
      I’m disappointed today …
      I need prayers today…
      People are crap…
      Just say whatever it is you have to say please , I’m not interested in guessing

    • My ex pulled this trick too! Set up a Facebook page with he and Schmoopies Nick names on it so he and she and her cruddy friends could all put their pea brains together with ideas to drive me insane! I swear, these sub humans are so unoriginal and devoid of any creative ideas ! I wonder how they ever put one foot in front of the other to walk without their social media “friends” giving them tips on exacy how to do it! It’s beyond putrid reading some of the crap these folks wrote in favor of my ex and his AP. Funny, now that he and his whore are spiraling downward I notice all their good “friends” have all disappeared! They just loved watching the “live” soap opera unfold on Facebook! They are just as guilty of blowing up my marriage of 41 years as my husband is and his whore!!

  • “Its complicated” translation – I’m too big of an ass to admit that I’ve caused pain and devastation. My ego can’t take the hit that someone might somehow figure out that I’m a very bad person. So I’ll just gloss it up with some wistful statement inferring relationship ambiguity.

    • Mistresses use “It’s complicated” on FB. I’ve seen it. Yeah, it’s real complicated, all that sex with a married man. Not. LOL

      • And then there are those that are both the cheater and the mistress. Somehow, to me, that is a double bad. Not only did you damage my children, you damaged another family’s children. Not only did you damage me, you damaged another innocent spouse. Double bad in my book.

        • I still feel sorry for the children and spouse of x’s mistress. Who leaves kids behind? I’d sooner eat my own eyeballs than harm my kids…..and they are grown.

        • @ Buddy ….and THAT would be my cheater’s AP…. married with 3 young boys (all under 10) and cheating on her husband/family, what a “prize” she is…. DOUBLE DESTRUCTION. I hope they both suffer, her and Xhole.

          • that is the way the oompa loompa who decided she had to have exhole. she bailed on her marriage and her 4 kids years ago. she already fubared her family so it didnt bother her to fubar mine family. i am pretty sure they hooked up in oct 2013, but she is trying to spin it now that they hooked up the day i kicked him out (for not coming home again) on jan. 1 2014. not before but on that same day, because you all know hood rat and ghetto rats can control themselves with any kind of temptation, because i am so sure when he stayed the night with her on new years eve, they made sure they didnt touch or kiss or do the nasty because they were waiting for him to officially leave his wife and his kids.

            but hey, i guess it is working for them. it seems like everyone in his family believe it and welcome new hood rat to the family. i personally dont understand ghetto logic.

      • Yes! I had the pleasure of reading those words from both of my stbx two AP’s. They both had similar situations (funny how they think they’re so unique)….both wanted to tell my stbx that they had answered ‘it’s complicated’ when asked about their love life at the hair salon. Both also then put ‘LOL’ afterwards. Oh Yes, what a laugh fest adultery is.

    • Nicely said. Cheaters are good at compartmentalization and living conflicting lives. Morally, I think they are also compartmentalized. There is a part of them that truly believes their lies, that they are entitled and justified in cheating, and another part of them that knows they are in the wrong and knows they are bad and, as you said, their egos can’t take the hit that someone else may discover their secret that they are indeed very bad.

      • I think my ex knew he was bad. He even yelled at me “okay, I’m a bad person” after I found some of the evidence of his affair with a married coworker (former grad student).

        • My ex would say stuff like that, in the hope I’d deny it and reassure him that he was a good person. And when that stopped working, this kind of blanket statement took the focus off the specific thing he’d just done wrong right now, wouldn’t want to be talking about that. Plus, of course, his subsequent conversations and behaviours showed that he never believed it for a minute! I was just judgemental and harsh, don’cha know.

          The reality is that he’s a bad person. In SOOOOO many ways, not just the cheating.

        • Yeah–they want to guilt you into contradicting them. Mine texted, “signing off, your narcissistic pos.” No contradiction from me!

      • About a year ago, the Flaming Turd asked me, “Do you think I’m a bad person?” I answered, “Yes I do.” He was quite taken aback because I had always taken pains to reassure him that he was basically a decent person who just seemed to make bad choices.

        He immediately became defensive and snarled, “Well if you think I’m such a bad person, why are you talking to me?” To which I responded, “Because I’m not a bad person. The fact that you’re still alive with all of your extremities intact is living testimony to my decency and self-control.”

        I’m not very complicated.

        • Good response Chump Princess! I have to admit the angst in my ex’s voice was so gut wrenching that I did take the bait and told him he wasn’t a bad person. The more I said he wasn’t a bad person, the more he sobbed. It was all so weird. Anyway, afterwards he moved in with the AP’s parents (yes, you can’t make this up). I found more evidence that he had a plan to break up his AP’s marriage by ingratiating himself with her family. I mean, he had a detailed PLAN. Now, who does crap like that? Who says they “love” the AP’s children as much as their own? Who gets the AP’s kids to start calling him Uncle so he can worm his way into their lives and hopefully break up their family? The answer to that is a BAD PERSON.

          • I’m so sorry Lyn. Your Ex sounds like he has 10 rooms with no furniture and hellfire in the basement.

            He’s a horrible person.

  • I think that read this quote on this site “If someone shows you who the really are, believe them”. It is all so easy. I am out of RIC and looking forward to moving out in June.

    I believe that he is a serial cheater, gambler, and lier. I am done with him and need to focus on me. My STXH said he wonders if he will ever be able to be faithful. I believe him. I also believe it myself.

    Someone will appreciate who I am. Faithful, loyal, hardworking and monogamous. It isn’t easy to go from a intact family to this crappy mess but at least I know that now what I can and cannot control in this mess. Thank You CL and CN for finding me 4 months after DD and not 4 years from now!!

  • If the answer to “Are you single?” starts out with “Well…,” RUN.

    The correct answer is either Yes or No. The state of their “happiness” does not alter their relationship status. Set those boundaries early on. “This woman is not going to take my shit.”

  • The problem is not the word complicated…. The problem is the word ‘ it’s.’ Failure to label what ‘ it ‘ is.
    ‘It just happen’ ‘ it didnt mean anything’ ‘ it was just one time’ ‘ its all in your mind’ ‘ its not my fault’
    Saying ‘it’ means ownership…. And they are not about to do that.

  • “It’s complicated” has a cousin, “There’s two sides to every story.” Little phrases designed to throw people off from the cold, hard truth, like beautiful wrapping paper on an empty box. Yes, there’s too sides to every story but often, one side is bullshit. And, no, it’s not complicated, it’s a hot mess because someone screwed up, literally. There’s so much bullshit floating around when the subject is infidelity.

    • 2 of my asshat’s favourites were
      Things happen for a reason, and no-one knows what the future holds.

      No fuckhead, things happen becUse people make them happen through actual decisions and actions.
      The other one is all about not having to actually commit to anything long term, some weird spiritual ghost may intervene………

      Bullshit

      • LOL, coco, one of my cheater’s faves too, during the six months of post DDay gaslighting and trying to get me to Pick Me dance, “No one knows what the future holds, Muse!” I said, I do and you’re not in mine.

    • Two sides to a story, eh? The thing that amazes me is how people listening to a cheater’s justifications never stop to consider that they are hearing a version from someone who, by definition, is dishonest. They really never stop and think ” Hmmm… this person has just lied and deceived someone he or she vowed to love and honor, and he or she did it for a long time.”
      They just seem to blindly accept this.
      Last Friday, I was playing golf with a friend and he was lamenting the fact that the young, attractive married woman he was always walking the lake with and talking about her marital problems had, at the insistence of her husband, had to discontinue the relationship.
      Seems he was told that the husband was cold and incommunicative and this guy was a shoulder to cry on etc.
      I told him the husband was right, after hearing from his wife that my friend was so much more emotionally evolved, blah, blah.
      My friend was pissed that I took the husband side and insisted how this woman was telling him the truth about her husband and needed his support ( vomit).
      I tried to point out that he knew shit about the husband except for what this woman told him, but he was insistent that she was honest etc. What a fucking idiot.
      I bet a lot of us were described in less than flattering ways by our cheaters. And , folks just lap this stuff up , as if it is gospel, even when they know the cheater lies about fidelity.

      • Yep–and then the idiots get what they deserve for being so stupid: each other.

        Did you tell your friend to consider why the woman hadn’t left her horrible husband? Why isn’t she taking walks and confiding in female friends, or her relatives?

        • Yeah, I brought that up. I , specifically, told him that if the husband was so bad, she would have divorced him and that she was a coward to speak of her husband that way.
          But, of course, to a fat 64 year old, anything under 40 that walks is so hot that he will ignore this. What a fucking moron. This same guy tells me that he loves his wife but would cheat on her in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself. Fortunately, he is so out of shape and ugly, I doubt he can get laid unless he pays for it.
          I am amazed by these guys that think like this.
          Last summer, we played and he was drooling over some 20 something beverage cart girl, announcing to me that he would love to bang her. I told him she would throw up if either of us peeled off any clothing.

            • thus the saying “dirty old man” comes to mind…while they think in their bird brain they got game, in reality from everyone else’s eyes they seem so creepy, nothing more nothing less…

              • They better not forget their wallet!! (Or your wallet, as sadly the case may be) As younger women want no part of older men without drinks, dinners, gifts & lots & lots of compliments.
                If those things are present, they just can’t get enough of their pot bellies, dyed comb-over, jowly faces, dumb jokes & saggy asses as well as dicks that don’t work as well as they used to or need pharmaceutical help or both. (Enter here female equivalent for the guys)
                One funny thing that mine said that shocked me was “She was very understanding when I had performance problems!” I said Duh??? she isn’t there for the sex MORON, she is there to take advantage of YOU & I. She likes our house, our bank accounts and is probably planning to get knocked up as we speak as a last resort to out herself & your little game in hopes it will irretrievably break our bond. I also added, well, uh, I don’t remember any performance problems with me, so I guess I didn’t get the Limp Dick Training.

          • Arnold, why do you hang with this guy? Seems like there must be someone more interesting as a golf buddy.

      • Good for you, Arnold, for challenging your buddy’s crap interpretation of what was going on with the married woman.

        Mine pulled the same bullshit–told me after I threw him out that he “always spoke well of me,” thereby ignoring that at least two of his affair partners felt comfortable asking him to leave his wife because of all the things he’d said about me and our marriage to them. Walking cliches, these f*ckers–“my spouse doesn’t understand me, doesn’t listen to me, doesn’t make me happy, ….blah blah blah.” Put that through the UBT and it means “My spouse is doing 95% of the parenting and 90% of the work in the marriage, and thus doesn’t have time to make me 100% happy….poor me. But I don’t really care if I make them 100% happy because, well, me.”

        • I was also the walking cliche. The topper was the shit she, MOW, was spouting to her friends. And then her friends bashing me too! (I was able to gather this crap because she left her FB password on my asshole’s lap top. And in the spirit of his transparency, he gave me his password. So when I dug and this shit popped out, I did vomit.)

          It’s not complicated. It’s pretty black and white. Don’t fuck people you are not married or committed to. Get a divorce or break up.

          • Vomit is a daily occurrence, but I’m the new kid on the block. When I found out about OWhore, I walked out of my office and promptly passed out on the concrete.

            It’s not complicated. Especially when before you ever got involved you had the “talk” about not ever cheating, but getting out of the relationship BEFORE you do something like that. But poor sausage was contacted over the years by OWhore and obviously she wore down his resistance…..WTF.

            Agree ^^ Don’t fuck people when you are in a committed relationship or married.

            • WhatAChump2015, you may want to check out the forums if you haven’t already. It sounds like you’re right in the thick of things and could use some extra support. There’s always someone around to cheer you up or talk you down from the ledge, and the ‘regulars’ are some of the smartest, funniest and most compassionate people I know. Big hugs to you as you navigate your way through this hell, and stay strong. The whole un/blended family thing makes it all extra special, doesn’t it?

              • I stumbled across CL shortly after DDay and have been here ever since. I have been reading the old posts and have appreciated this site more than I can express. It has been a lifesaver when I didn’t think I was going to survive.

                Thanks to all that have put up with me so far. I have a long way to go and am regularly discovering the depths of his duplicity.

                Unblending a family is a nightmare for everyone. It makes it even more special that OWhore was the woman before me that just couldn’t leave him alone. And his child knew her and I can only imagine the lightbulb that is going to go off in the teen child when he re-introduces them.

                I Love my stepchild and miss our family unit. My child who is a young adult even commented on meals aren’t the same anymore and we just can’t seem to bring ourselves to do some of the activites we used to.

                Trying to survive daily and try to see the 2 people that he was as I cannot reconcile them.

                Thanks for the words of encouragement. They are appreciated more than you know.

              • I miss my stepson as well. And not only him. I have a Little Brother with whom I started volunteering 8 years ago when he was 5. When I met my ex my LB basically started living with us (Summer and Christmas breaks, every weekend, vacations, etc. Not what the program is for, but I never wanted bio children of my own. Helping someone disadvantaged is important to me). Now that my ex ran off I don’t have the energy or other resources to see him so often; when I do see him it hurts like hell because 1/2 of our family unit has been ripped away from us.

                I have no idea what my soon to be 16 year-old former stepson thinks about the situation. I didn’t get a goodbye and haven’t heard from him since. He’s not the sentimental type; I think he’s learned from his mother not to grow too attached to anyone. I hope that I mattered in his life, but from where I sit it looks like he could have never even known me.

                I’m in awe of chumps who have to share parenting responsibilities with these people. Even seeing my LB, wondering if he’s seen my ex, tears me apart.

      • Arnold, I think if more men would call their friends out on stuff like that there might be less families breaking apart. So many guys would just wink and turn the other way. Good for you for speaking the truth to your friend, even though he didn’t want to hear it. That lady should have been talking to a counselor instead of another man if she was having marital problems.

    • And there is the “I know I fucked up. I made a mistake. I’m sorry”

      Yeah, an ongoing mistake for 2 years complete with burner phones, secret accounts, hidden boxes of condoms, and accidentally forwarding sexy pictures weekly. Whoops!!!

      • I believe CL said it best in her book – “In the real world, people don’t just accidentally land on each other’s genitals.”

        • LOL “it just happened” was X’s excuse. X was “just friends” with OW, and then, all of the sudden, out of the blue, somewhere alone without either of their spouses around, “it just happened!” And then they both “just happened” to move in together?

          If those kind of “accidents” happen, then I need to make friends with some really hot (single) male celebrities. Whoops!

      • Buddy, I am still waiting for “I know I fucked up. I made a mistake. I’m sorry.” Didn’t even get that. He still says that the affair was “partially” my fault… I did get “it just happened” in an email from the skank-whore. Yes, it “just happened” that you actively pursued and screwed a man you knew was married for a year or so…

    • And Carol, that goes hand in hand with “well you don’t know what goes on behind closed doors”. I detest both of those sayings. Because I am telling FACTS, not lies. And yeah, they DIDN’T know what went on behind closed doors and how ex treated ME!

      • Yes AllaLie. I also cannot stomach the “boys will be boys” line along with the knowing wink and/or smirk. It’s mind-blowing to realize some men (and some women) truly never advance beyond their pre-teen years way of thinking.

  • Another great post CL !!

    It truly made my head spin after DDay, when I continued to be confronted by “it’s complicated”, “if he isn’t happy, wasn’t this all for the best”, ” why are you so upset? Or hurt? Or sad? You just grew apart, that happens”, “you need to move on”, etc. etc. The number of people I encountered and still do, friends/people I had always believed had good morals and values – who easily dismiss adultery, betrayal in the same context and unimportance as if the cheater simply forgot to bring home milk, or any other trivial daily activity. “There are two sides to every story when this happens”, and when the cheater ex spins the truth even years later to explain away his crappy behavior, I have learned that there’s no understanding crazy.

    It comes down to ….. There’s nothing to say to a person who treated me and our kids as if we had no value in this life, and no contact is the only key to sanity, and or for those people in every day life that even begin to utter that twisted rationalization, or ex friends who dismissed cheating as trivial and of no consequence ? …. I have learned to either smile or not, act like they’re less than a stranger on the street (my secret finger to them), hold my head high and keep on walking.

    • So true, Kathy. Going no contact is working fine for me FINALLY! But I will get questions, “:Why are you not communicating??” “What happened to our communication?” “Why are you not working with me???” It will be nothing about the kids and everything to do with the CS he owes or a pending court date. He will somehow find a way to “punish” me for not responding. I keep telling myself the same thing over and over what you put in your post, “There’s nothing to say to a person who treated me and our kids as if we had no value in his life.” But, in his words, he “didn’t cheat on the kids”, he only “cheated on me.” He’s a class act cheater, that one 🙂

      • This is my ExW…”I did not cheat on the kids Cletus, I cheated on you”… As if blowing up the kids world and intact family was not cheating on them!…They are all the same…EVERY. SINGLE. ONE!

        • I agree Cletus !
          My XH told our son “that this has nothing to do with you and your sister, this is only between your mom and I ”

          That one statement upset both of them so badly, it made no sense to them. And as lie after lie came out, My son now 24 and daughter now 21, saw it another way when his cheating Hit the light of day. Everything he had said and how he had been treating them for years FINALLY made sense. All the pieces fell into place. Before that, They had been feeling, just as I had, that there was something wrong with us. We deserved the abuse, criticism, the anger because we were worthless. That the strange uncomfortable feeling we got when we were around people we knew was our fault, when in reality he had been badmouthing/ putting us down, telling lie after lie to justify whatever he was doing.

          Now we’re free of the crazy, and we are closer and stronger than ever. My son and daughter are learning from other family members and friends how dads ARE really supposed to treat and love their kids.

          So yes, you’re right Cletus !!

        • It is a little inconvenient for them to admit they cheated on their kids, too. After all, how can the justifications they use extend to the kids? Tough little problem for them, eh?
          So, they bury their heads in the sand when the ramifications on the kids are brought up.
          Hell, I think my kids were more affected than me.

          • Yes, THIS! Fucking over your spouse is one thing, your kids, Quite another. All three of mine, in their early twenties, are not dating. Seems they have trouble with their father’s lie (his life with me) and that whole “I never loved you [but stayed married and pretended he did]” is definitely hard for them to get past. Mindfuck for sure.

        • “I didn’t cheat on the kids Cletus, I cheated on you.” I didn’t ruin our whole fucking family by cheating on you Cletus, I only ruined you.” “Alcoholism is not a ‘family disease, It is my problem and only affects me.” Nimrods!

        • Cletus, my STBX used that line on our 18 yo daughter – his cheating had nothing to do with her just me. She repeated this to me and I replied ‘the cheating part did have to do with me. But when your dad told both you and I that he was working late, he lied to both of us, not just me. When he talked bad about me to you behind my back, he was manipulating both of us, not just me, etc.’ She gets it now but he still pulls the ‘poor him’ routine on her constantly.

        • Another cliche, Cletus–my ex said the same thing. He didn’t cheat on the kids (except when he lied about where he’d been all day, or didn’t make it to their games, or didn’t spend the weekend with them, or hurt their mother, or moved out of the family home so that he could spend about 3 hours a MONTH with them), he only cheated on me.

          That’s in the first chapter of cheater-speak.

        • I don’t have kids with cheater, but he used a similar line that made no sense either, “I didn’t cheat on us, Muse, I cheated on YOU!” I am befuddled as to what version of “us” didn’t include me in it… oh, that narc version, yeah.

        • Cletus, I heard something similar along the lines of “I didn’t leave the kids, AllaLie, I left YOU!”. Um, yeah, that’s why you moved over an hour away to go live with also married OW (who left her kids as well.. as we said, what MOM leaves their kids????).

          • that is what the oompa loompa tried to tell me, she said he didnt divorce the kids, he divorced you. (actually i divorced him) but this is coming from a woman who bailed on her own marriage and abandoned her own kids, so i didnt even try to explain anything to her.

            i did say, i divorced him and what do you call it when you leave the home where your kids are.

        • I HATE how they pretend that these things don’t have any impact on the children. It had an impact on my children – and they’re all adults now. He was a serial cheater, so there were years where he was hostile, then not hostile, taking resources that could and should have been used for the family, the lies, the moodiness – all of it had an impact on the entire family.

          That’s part and parcel of being a cheater, however – not being accountable or taking responsibility for your choices. Living your life in the passive voice – unless you’re out screwing someone not your spouse.

      • I hope those questions are going to a dedicated email box (not your text #) where you can ignore his pleas for “communication,” AKA an opportunity to manipulate you about money or custody. A separate email account can be great for keeping track of how often Cheaterpants tries to make contact. I’m not sure how he’s “punishing” you, but No Contact is “no contact.” And what would “working with me” involve? Taking less money for CS? Moving his custody or visitation hours or days around? Figure out what works for you, set your boundaries and enforce them. And then realize that his attempts to manipulate you are only “punishment” if you internalize the blame for his tantrums and sad sorry sausage act.

        If he uses visitation drop off and pickup and custody days to get you into a form of pick-me dance, wherein he cajoles and wheedles for special favors, cut that shit off right away. Other than exchanging the kids or conveying both ordinary and emergency information about the kids, let your lawyer do the talking.

        • My father was buried a fortnight ago but my ex was on the phone last week to “see how the funeral went” and remind me that we need to stay in contact.
          He disappears when it suits but I think OW is calling him in on how long divorce is taking. Well excuse me while I deal with bereavement and an 87 year old mother with dementia.

          • Take your time, Mary. Do what is best for you. Looking back I wish I had understood the division of property better. Had an inexperienced lawyer who couldn’t see dissipation of assets if it hit her between the eyes, and a disordered Narc spouse intent on going scorched earth. Divorcing in the best of circumstances is hard so it is wise to solicit counsel and other experts on everything you need help with. Use resources to help with challenges at home because you are going to need this as well.

  • My cheater tried to explain things as being “complicated”. It was just another thread in the skien of fuckedupness. I explained to him that there was nothing complicated in our wedding vows. Nothing complicated in “forsaking all others”. And he had a big gold band on his left hand to remind him in case he forgot.
    There’s nothing complicated in “we’re divorced now”.

      • These assholes are so fucking dumb, it probably is complicate to them. I bet they communicate in a series of guttural clicks and grunts : “Me like. Me fuck. Make loins feel good. Me married?”

        • Hahahahhahaha Arnold! You are so right! Me horny, me need to prowl, me entitled, me want, me go get, me stupid, me not very grown up. (Me not admitting last two). Me not capable of understanding “complicated” (much less simple) a fancy word that gets me out of shit! Uga Uga Booga

  • Less than a month post DDay, as I am desperately trying to save my marriage, H tells me during a discussion, “you see everything in black and white.” So, by implication, the affair and how it began, etc etc, is complicated. If only I had known at the time… Much more complicated, turns out more than one affair 😉

    Of course, I responded, no, I realize things are complicated. D’oh, head slap.
    No, it is black and white, and it is not complicated. I wised up the same time he called it quits.

    • Yup, I got the “you see everything in black and white,” too. My response was the same. My therapist even tried that one until I told him I wasn’t going to pay him (as some may remember) and pay the guy I just met downstairs. He changed his tune, STBX used it all the time. It came to mean that I see things as right or wrong and he swims in the murky gray waters of no moral compass. He always tried to make me think I was the only one that thought that way. .

      My STBX also meant it was complicated because he hadn’t quite snowed the rich OW and he was trying to keep me unaware so I didn’t mess up his new and improved life.

    • Even if things were not black and white, we chumps still did not have a say in the false murky gray. How can we decide if things are black, white or gray if we don’t even know about them.

      What’s complicated is making decisions about one’s life when we don’t have all the details because of the lying cheaterpants.

      • YES!!! My H. won’t tell me ANYTHING when he’s been AWOL for overnights…there have been a few times where he would post pics of his antics with his friends on his FB page, but the majority of his jaunts- he might as well have been invisible- no text responses, wouldn’t answer his phone, was “offline” on FB— total soul-sucking long painful nights…now that we’re almost to the end, he’s STILL claiming that he was “out with friends” and the Who-the-Where-the-When’s aren’t important…he says it doesn’t matter since it’s clear to him that I don’t trust him— uh, yeah!!! Because you won’t ‘fess up, jackass!!!! Forget “complicated” this is just a fucked up mess…I’m all over the map, and all he seems to be worried about is who all I’ve told– that’s all he asks me, “Who all have you been talking to?”

        • Oh yeah, and as far as his FB relationship status goes- he’s had NOTHING for relationship status for months, and he “unfriended” me- ME, his wife, months ago and only shares his shit with his FB “friends” so I can’t see shit he’s posting. Fuck-fuckity-fuck!!!!

          • My STBXH also unfriended me on Facebook, early on. He did the same to all our mural friends and got new ones who think he’s sparkly, like the OW. They are all turds.

            • Yes!!! He has a very small number of “mutual” friends with me, but his page is still locked down…asshole!!!! I have never met his friends, and gladly so, because they are just as stupid as he is.

        • The beauty of NC is that it deals with all this crap…you do not ask questions that will be unanswered or lied about…you do not check his facebook status or keep up with his social media antics…you discreetly change the subject if your adult kids get on to what dad is up to.
          After a while the interest fades and you protect yourself from further hurt, lies and mindfucking.
          If you have children who are minors then stick to their plans and welfare…if you are divorcing then politely discuss that and leave out the personal stuff.
          I have rarely benefited from disregarding this boundary and, when I do, usually regret it.
          We are not with these people any more “for a reason not that complicated”.

  • My ex told an old friend that it was complicated when he asked how we were ( hadn’t seen him for a while) whilst I was present. I turned and said, ‘No it’s not. You’re a lying cheating bastard.it’s actually very simple.’ Ex went bright red and friend looked lost for words.That was the moment I realised the reconciliation ( false of course) was probably not going to work. Those moments are worth their weight in gold when you look back on them.

  • That was the line my Ex used to tell all of our friends when he ran away…”it’s complicated!”.Yeah, it was so “complicated” to try and explain why you left your family and didn’t want to talk with ANY of your friends. Yeah,being “divorced in your mind for a long time” made it “less complicated” to justify all of your cheating ways and stupidity! Sorry, until those divorce papers are signed , stamped, dated and filed by the court system, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED!!!!! I have been a millionaire in my mind for lots of years, but I still have to scrub toilets to make ends meet…….
    And ZXY321, I got the same ‘you see everything in black and white ” crap…funny how the truth can be plain ol’ black and white!!!!!

    • LOLing at “Divorced in my mind.” There should be a FB amendment for that… wipe away “It’s complicated” with the truth. There shouldn’t be too many.

      Divorced (in my mind)
      Open Marriage (in my mind)
      Mistress/Man-Whore
      Work-Wife/Work-Husband
      If I fuck someone from my past, it doesn’t count as cheating. No NEW partners, you see.
      Married (until I’m off marital property/out of my area code, etc.)
      Open to “Emotional Affairs” that include everything but penetration.

      Because it’s not cheating if a penis never entered her vagina.

      • Love that Insist! “Open to Emothional affairs because it’s not cheating if a penis never entered a vagina!” LOL – thats what my asswipe stbx says…. “He never cheated on me!” Because it is not cheating to ‘talk’ to other women – he needs ‘someone’ to talk to about his issues ya know – like another woman. Not a psychiatrist, just a woman ‘friend’ will do. Dumbass….

        • Like pulling over on the way home – because a married to a handsome surgeon, wealthy, 53 yo Chinese woman and a married to a SAHM, middle class, 37 yo man with three young children can occasionally carpool without anyone being concerned, right? – to “talk” about their relationship issues with their respective spouses. It was all so innocent! They had to stop and get out of the vehicle in random, abandoned parking lots, stand too close, and a boner accidentally popped out and pinned her against her vehicle. And the “Not Intercourse” that followed was all a big mistake.

          Poor sausages were just victims of their circumstances!

              • She wouldn’t be – that’s the killer! They have an arrangement, apparently. She produced his child, they’ve had separate bedrooms since, and SHE cannot have sex with anyone else, in this country, without serious financial repercussions.

                She doesn’t care. She spends almost half the year in China anyway.

                Being married for a long time is no longer a guard against the possibility of cheating, in my mind. Before this? I had no idea that such arrangements existed. Why would anyone live that way?

                My previous view that human beings are inherently good or want to be died that day. No one deserves trust. That’s what happened, in my head. I was selling an old car last fall and the woman set down the cash and told me that she’d be back to sign the title after she picked up her son from school. I told her that she shouldn’t be so trusting… that I needed to write up a Bill of Sale and we needed to sign it first. That she needed to protect herself, whether I was “a good person or not.” She was very weirded out by that; she definitely changed her demeanor, as if I WAS actually about to screw her over. Oh well. I hope it gives her pause, in the future.

                We all suck unless we don’t. Me too. That’s what this has taught me. If I let my guard down, I get screwed over. Every fucking time.

      • After going through this experience I find it hard to trust anyone but myself. I feel like we’re all basically alone in the world. Nothing surprises me any more.

        • “After going through this experience I find it hard to trust anyone but myself. I feel like we’re all basically alone in the world. Nothing surprises me any more.”

          THIS! ^^^^^^

  • It’s only complicated when you want to stay married with all the benefits (the pick-me dancing spouse, the convenience of living with the kids so you don’t have to spend time with them, the house, the full family income, the savings, the retirement funds, another set of hands in your spouse to do the work) while at the same time wallowing in the bliss of limerence, infatuation or easy sex and enjoying the kibble factory of triangulation between AP and spouse. That’s a lot to juggle when you are an emotionally stunted narcissist cheaterpants.

    • AGH! Loved, did you get that straight out of my ex’s head?? That’s definitely EXACTLY what he wanted.

  • It’s only complicated because they make it that way. When I first found out I got the “it’s not what it looks like” to which I responded “if it walks like a duck and quacks like one that’s generally what it is”

    Too bad I got cold feet instead of just walking away right then and there. I stuck around for three more years watching it quack like a duck and calling it a unicorn. My bad! Better late than never I always say!

    • Yeah, to them, it being complicated adds to their smug elitism. They think they know more about TRUE LOVE than the chump who’s busy raising a family.

  • My ex was big on the ‘it’s complicated’ stuff – and he’s both French and from a family riddled with infidelity, so romanticizing and sophistaphizing adultery is something that comes easily to him.

    Even when he wrote the big apology letter to the kids (after months of their refusing to see him), he said something like ‘I had a relationship with Schmoopie. There were circumstances leading to that relationship, but it was the wrong thing to do.’ OH! CIRCUMSTANCES! Well, it all makes sense now! No wonder you had to fuck someone else!

    But my absolute fave was when I tried to explain to him why lying was a problem in relationships (this after he tried to cheat on Schmoopie with me). This man who has absolute contempt for religion said ‘I feel like I’m being lectured in church!’. Later, when turning down yet another attempt to get me to ‘try again’, I mentioned that the fact he showed no remorse and made no attempts to repair the damage he’d done made it not terribly tempting. His response ‘I see that remorse and redemption are your focus – the religious stuff again!’.

    I didn’t even try to explain. He knows I’m not religious at all, but getting him to understand that EVERY major religion condemns lying and adultery FOR A REASON, and that every major religion has a process for expressing remorse and seeking redemption FOR A REASON, and that those processes apply even if you’re not religious, you just have to be human, that would be useless. He doesn’t want to think about that kind of stuff, because it’s not convenient to him.

    Far more convenient to think of it as ‘complicated’. And he was all happy to inform me that Schmoopie ‘understood about the cheating’, because she had ended her previous marriage (and broken up her kids’ family) by having an affair, and was perfectly happy to hit on him, knowing he was in a long-term committed relationship, w/kids.

    They can go be complicated together, it sounds quite hellish.

    • KarenE–Mine explained to the oldest daughter, “there were marriage problems and I fell back on an old crutch” where “old crutch” equals boning graduate and undergraduate students, just like before he was married.

            • LOL! No shit, right? They can always count on what’s between their legs to bring them “happiness!” Sounds like they are stuck in a very personal kind of HELL to me. I’d hate to be running around “unhappy” all the time looking for someone to screw me to obtain so-called “happiness”!

  • My STBXH only said “we’re just friends” to me. But to others, outside my presence, it was, “I wasn’t happy” like it was some awesome thing he did by leaving. You know, he was just being true to himself. NO. He was being selfish.

    He also yelled to me during custody mediation that, “I left you! Not our son!”. Seriously??? I think our son would disagree. He would say that you left. I mean you have your own apartment now. Nothing in the house is yours any longer. It was at that moment that I realized the disdain he had for me. Oh he still wants me and everyone else to think he is a “good” person. But I don’t. Never will again. He’s the worst kind of person. Still isn’t paying child support or helping with household bills. But that’s ok. I am patient. And ruthless. Yesterday, I had him served the child support court summons in my damn driveway. And the sheriff was happy to oblige. He said, “You don’t mess with the mother”. Damn straight.

    • Good for you, conniered! I don’t understand how they make this work in their minds…the “I left you, not the kids” My STBX laid this on me, too. I actually had to take him to court to get child support out of him, yet he “didn’t leave the kids”.

  • LOL, this is why I love you CL…this is my cheater ex to a tee. He used all this mindfuckery language and justification on me. What a loser. GOOD RIDDANCE.

  • My cheater used to joke that he was an “Alien” from outerspace. In his mind, I’m sure that too was a contributory rationale for his philandering… a subset of really “special”. I would love to have seen that description in one of his on-line profiles. Maybe I would have SeenTheLight sooner? Instead I just saw the “It’s Complicated” box checked (they have a check box!!!) Isn’t that great how that has become a meme for these shallow, stagnant pits of sewage? …just venting today….

  • 99% of the time, it’s Complicated is code for someone in a relationship is a Cheater. Which actually means they are both Cheaters, by default. The only thing complicated is keeping track if all the lies you’re telling

  • “My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them” Mitch Hedberg

    The above quote summarizes what cheaters mean by claiming “it’s complicated”

  • When you bring money into the picture, you really need to include the committed relationship to the mix. When you are looking at retirement, and the income you are going to have for that — your marital status can make a huge impact on your retirement income. I would be crazy to marry again unless I was marrying a man who was wealthier than I was, and who wanted to share that wealth with me. If he had children, I am sure they would be less than thrilled that daddykins would want to marry and screw up their inheritance. If I married someone who has even less than I do, I would be the money supply again, and I am NOT EVER going to do that again. I may be a Chump, but I am not stupid. I really do have the capacity to learn from my mistakes. In addition, I have plans for my own children, and I do not wish to disturb those plans.

    I was thinking the other day that I am the kind of date that my mother wanted me to be when I was younger. If I am going to have any physical contact with a significant other, we will have to have a STD test first, and then a long conversation about expectations. I do not wish to die because some moron thinks that he can sleep with anyone he chooses. If they don’t want to be faithful, then I don’t need to be sexual. That is pretty simple to me. Have you seen that commercial where the idiot is bitten by a non-poisonous snake, and cannot understand the snake was not poisonous? Instead, he thinks he is immune to venom. Really, cheaters think they are immune to STD’s. Because they are SPECIAL.

    When I was younger I may have believed in my chumpy naive way that whether or not I had a sexual relationship with someone was some kind of a complicated issue which included weighing religious beliefs, expectations, alcohol consumption, birth control and common sense. Now, I just don’t see any reason to say yes unless I care about someone who cares enough about me to go through the commitment process. Someone who understands it and means it. No do-overs, ever again. This is not a gray area for me. I will never forget, and I don’t feel like being put in a situation where I have to forgive.

    People who think being healthy, both mentally and physically, is not the most important thing are not “complicated”. They are delusional. Everything else is secondary to being healthy, and being promiscuous is simply not healthy. It is risky.

    • Life is too short and Eternity is too long to live any other way !
      Stay with it Portia!

    • Portia, “If they don’t want to be faithful, then I don’t need to be sexual.” You think that this is what a lot of us go through when we are married and the idiot keeps on talking about “we didn’t have enough sex”. I think that you have that damn gut feeling that tells you, you are not the only one he’s having sex with anymore. So why would you want to keep having sex with the idiot, he’s getting it from 2 people. Of course, he wants to keep this going on. It’s insanity on their part and so much sadness on our part.

      • I think that it isn’t realistic for people to believe that the honeymoon will go on forever. I enjoyed sex, but it was never the only thing I thought about or figured out how to get from the time I woke up in the morning. When I was married and my husband traveled with his work, I didn’t go out looking for a sex partner. He was supposed to be working, but he found time to search for sex, too.

        When the children came along, I was so busy I hardly had time to go to the bathroom. If he had helped me with the children and the housework (we both worked outside the home, only I worked inside the home) I may have had more energy and interest. But he didn’t make that effort. So if the sex was lacking because I was already working an 18 hour day, I have to say he could have tried to figure that out.

        When I found out there were OW — it didn’t make me want to have sex with him. Actually, it repulsed me. Then I looked at him — I mean really looked at him. I wondered what I was so upset over, because he really didn’t have much going for himself. The infidelity and lies tainted him for me, and ruined any thought of sex. There are a few things I want for my personal use, and I don’t ever want to share. I just can’t see lending someone my toothbrush, or my husband. If that makes me selfish and unfeeling and cold, then so be it. I just never bought into the concept that an affair would help a marriage in any way. To me, the affairs were an excellent reason to end the marriage.

        When he decided to lie and to cheat, the marriage was over — the fact that it took me a while to catch on just delayed the actual divorce. All the stuff I found out when I was unravelling the skein just made me sick and angry. The anger propelled me to the lawyer and the divorce. But the marriage was over long before the legalities were.

        • Thats one thing I think about too, Portia, and this is why cheating is an ultimate deal breaker for me, with no going back.
          If my partner has sex with someone else outside of my committed relationship – to me they are forever tainted. (Of course, they had people before me and all, but I’m talking about in the future) Makes me ill just thinking about it.

  • Lioness, know you will recover and get your soul back. It was poached by a theif, but it is yours and not for the taking anymore. I remember saying I would never recover, that the pain would never end, and that I would go blind from crying. Today is my freedom day. Just a year ago my X met someone on my anniversary and discarded me without warning. As I look back it was the BEST year of my life. It sucked for sure. Most importantly I detatched from a toxic relationship and divorced him after years of abuse. Today I celebrate myself and the journey to freedom. My glass was always full, as I can pull out something positive in just about anything. You will survive and come out in a place where you can breath. You deserve respect and love.

  • “If you are married, don’t fuck people you aren’t married to. If you’re single, don’t fuck married people”
    And that says it all…

    Some people don’t get why I dislike my ex wife as much as her affair partner. “He owed you nothing” is what they say. “She was culpable.”
    And my response is, yes, she is responsible for her actions. And he is too — there is a social contract… and you don’t fuck someone else’s wife and mess with the future of their kids lives. Yet he has no responsibility… and I get to spend 50% less time with my kids.

    Cheaters and their affair partners are infinitely selfish. I’ve moved on, and built a new life for me and my kids, but I will never forgive, let alone be happy for them playing the happy couple. Luckily I believe in karma.

  • My Narcissist soon to be ex wife had multiple affairs and when found out, acted like she felt bad. She wanted a Divorce, so she decided in her mind that she could continue to date other men and have more affairs. 2-3 years later we are still not divorced and she has had many more affairs that she likes to classify as new boyfriends / relationships. Never try to understand a CHEATERS rationale!!!!! Its all in an attempt to make themselves feel better and have less shame!!!

  • Trent – when I found out about my stbx’s little “phone sex line,” I told EVERYONE. I was pissed! I was pissed that he had deceived me and also that he was careless enough to allow my son to find the f’n phone. At that time people started to diss the jackass because the jerk had it made – he had a great wife and family – and he cheats on her. Anyway after about a month of feeling the ramifications of his actions, he decided to send out a Mass text to a bunch of people. It pretty much read that the reason we are divorcing is because of MY cheating (for 15 years I have been accused of an affair that never happened) and everyone who is that shallow (to diss HIM) can just fuck off. OMG – talk about feeling the shame, huh? And rationalizing HIS FACTUAL CHEATING by trying to make me look like the cheater. He pretty much just made himself look all that more stupid by doing that…..

  • Any language that confuses and communicates nothing is the sweet spot for narcissists who are avoiding responsibility at all costs. Vague language is the last refuge of a coward. Just putting up a smokescreen to cover shame.

    “it’s complicated” type terms are in the crap-English category with “there are two sides to every story” and “the heart wants what the heart wants” . What the f*ck do those things mean?

    My favorite quote from my ex-wife’s affair partner to me (after all secrets were out and our divorce finalized) is “it is what it is”. This has turned into a joke amongst my daughters and me, the vague answer to give when you have messed up.

    • “It is what it is.” My POS cheating ex’s favourite phrase. BLECH. If I hear someone say that now, I dislike them on the spot.

      • Actually, that annoying little phrase is not out of place in terms of CL thinking. It is what it is. Its often not what they tell us it is or what we would like it to be. Accepting “what is” cuts through our denial and bargaining (pick-me dancing) phase. It promotes the healthy anger that removes us from danger and gets us a decent settlement instead of mad ranting that only exhausts and demeans us. It shortens depression of the weeping in bed and not doing our hair mindframe as, in time, what “is” starts to look a whole lot better than what “is’nt”.
        As for “things happen for a reason” – well they do. Trust that they suck. The red flags were waving. Maybe you had not been all that happy in a long time either.
        CL – maybe its time to run some of the tired old cliches through the UBT to make them our friends!

  • Ya I know – I hate that ‘scenario’ too “It is what it is.” Like – it was FATE that this happened. GOD must have wanted them to cheat on us… Right. We are given something called “Free Will” people. And the choice a person makes has a consequence – good or bad. Cheaters choose the bad. It didn’t “have to be what it is” had some lame-o thought about the ramifications of their actions. Stupid stupid people….

  • “things are complicated with me… always have been.”

    This is one of those smug, faux insightful and introspective remarks that simultaneously convey superiority and arrogance; show condescension for the great unwashed, non-complex masses that comprise the rest of us unenlightened dolts, imply a degree of introspection where there is shallowness and callousness, seek forgiveness and understanding without asn ounce of apology, and raise a middle finger in the air to you.

    That’s a lot to accomplish in seven words. You know, maybe they really are the very brilliant and devastatingly charming sparklights they think they are.

    • Plus it implies that YOU never got your partner whereas the OW/OM does “get” her/him.
      Ugh, cheater speak is exhausting.

      • Exactly. He’s so “deep.” And you, chump, are not. He also said of OW, “she’s gets that I’m a big picture guy, Muse. You never did.” Um, hey how about I’m a college educated mother of three who runs my own business, but I guess you are calling me stupid???? because I just don’t get how deep and complicated your cheating ass is.

  • My father is a physicist and sees the Universe as simple once you take the time to learn the basic rules of How Things Work. When his kids were confronted with any number of life’s challenges big and small (from long division and learning to whistle to finding a partner for life and raising kids), he’d advise us: “It isn’t complicated, it’s just *hard*. Keep at it.”

    My cheating ex-wife didn’t do hard.

    She preferred to be easy.

    Many people think morality is simple enough that you can define it with 10 Commandments. George Carlin showed it’s even simpler than that:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rLWJntz-o

    I’m a practicing Christian, but I think a lot of folks would benefit from taking the time, like Carlin does in this bit, to think critically about the meaning of these rules. Don’t be dishonest or unfaithful, and don’t kill. Doesn’t that pretty well cover it?

    • I would say that is the broad brush that does pretty much cover it, and would hopefully add a dash of “Do unto others…”

    • Nomar, I love your dad’s complicated/hard distinction. I’ve always felt the same way about simple vs. easy.

    • Love this! (Carlin’s bit is good too.) Chumpguy, If more people lived by “do unto others…” the world would be a better place.

  • My wife actually complained to her AP about how “complicated” cheating was.

    “My Thursday turned out to be more complicated than I thought.” (This was the opening line of an e-mail she sent him when I first kicked her out of the house.)

    “Why is life so complicated!” (Her complaint to him via text because I was insisting that she not talk to him at 11:30 p.m.)

    So, really, she used “complicated” to describe the ways that I was an over-bearing, demanding spouse. My responses to her cheating “complicated” her efforts to get her kibbles. It’s all SO complicated!

    She never used the word on me, though. I’d like to say it’s because she knew I’d see through the BS that it is. But, I don’t think that’s the case. Instead, she really thought I wasn’t enlightened enough to understand cheating. My wife very-much subscribed to the idea that she was somehow more evolved / more edgy / more sophisticated for breaking vows, lying, manipulating, and succumbing to primitive instincts…regardless of the social consequences. People like this are “deeper” than the rest of us, you see.

    • I had to bear the most annoying conversation happening at the table next to me in a tiny overcrowded restaurant in Paris. They were writers, you see, who were deperately trying to find a good reason to feel above the crowd. They were admiring a fellow writer, who had f*cked whatever was possible to f*ck, and one of them said, “he has a rich sexual life, not at all like the man on the street”. I did my best to flee the place, unwillingly bumping into an object and apologizing, and they ignored me, the superior souls. From that day, I know that people who f*ck around do indeed feel very superior.It’s absurd when you think about it, but it probably is a remnant from the early primates who got to reproduce more when they were more powerful.
      And when they can’t practice, they take pride in saying crude sexual words as if they were usual words.

    • Gee, JC. Sounds like you’ve been put in the parenting role by your super fun, teen-like wife and her boyfriend! I was placed into the mothering role by asshole. I still remind him that I am not his mother. I’m will not be monitoring his behavior, patting his head like a good boy nor telling him actions he should take in living an honest life. He is a 50 yr old man baby.

      Remind your wife that you are not listed as her father on her birth certificate.

      • Yes, ANC, don’t deal with manchildren (or womenchildren). It’s a thankless task.

        I’m NC from my ex-wife for one year and counting. And I must say, it’s nice.

  • I just remembered my cheating ex wife reassuring (?) me firmly during our brief false reconciliation that during her years-long affair with her boss she had been careful not to ever have sex with the two of us on the same day. As not having our two penises insider her during the same rotation of the Earth on its axis was some kind of brave defense of morality that should earn her some kind of award.

    Two observations:

    1. Pfffffft. If you lie for years about the fact of your cheating, why would anyone think you wouldn’t lie about the logistical details of your cheating? And more to the point. . .

    2. How “complicated” does your alternate reality have to be for you to think that this fact carries any moral weight at all?

    • My wife came home from one of her business trips…… we had sex…. she was not very into it…. come to find out…. I was mixing it up with her boy friends boys he left behind the night before…. she being special, did not use rubbers…. no birth control…. I try not to think about it…. makes ones stomach turnnnnnnnnn!!! Insanity is a good label!!!

    • This is just fascinating. I mean, I’m sorry that you had to go through it. But how in the world did your wife think was some sort of “standard” by which she was a better cheater than others?

      • I know, right? I guess in her mind she felt it was better knowing that there were *whole days* when she was faithful? #becauseschizo

    • Nomar,

      “I just remembered my cheating ex wife reassuring (?) me firmly during our brief false reconciliation that during her years-long affair with her boss she had been careful not to ever have sex with the two of us on the same day.”

      I am TOTALLY opposed to domestic violence and people who engage in it. However, I have to say, I admire your restraint. What the fuck! What were you supposed to say to that? Thanks for your consideration?

    • “As not having our two penises insider her during the same rotation of the Earth on its axis was some kind of brave defense of morality that should earn her some kind of award.”

      “Thank God you do not live near the international dateline.”

      I am laughing so hard. Yes indeed, Nomar, she was “faithful” for whole minutes and hours that actually turned into a 24-hour DAY, don’t you SEE how SPECIAL she is?!?!

  • What a considerate wife you had nomar! My ex told me that he felt bad about having sex with an Asian prostitute whilst wearing a condom and then returning home and having a secret STD test. However, he never felt bad about having sex with me afterwards without wearing a condom because we had been married for 35 years and had only had sex with each other, so I thought. I had to be tested at 60 years of age and the humiliation I endured I don’t think I will ever recover from. They are just selfish rubbish who think only of their genitals and the next conquest.

    • Maree – ‘ I had to be tested at 60 years of age and the humiliation I endured I don’t think I will ever recover from.’

      I did the same. Haven’t needed to spread my legs on stirrups since 2 decades ago when I had a hysterectomy. I bawled the entire time thinking of the humiliation and thank god I had a great nurse doing it.

      What does the guy have to go through for this test? Another chance to jack off?

  • When you’ve been with a cheater for so long you really get to know their playbook. X stayed he couldn’t get anywhere with me. Yet in one year I assumed all the bills, support my son and granddaughter with ease. I was working on my credit to buy a retirement home last summer. My credit card debt is gone my credit score is good and I’m saving to purchase my own home this winter. He in the other hand lost the respect of his family and found a whore to buy into his fantasy life of moving to florida and having her support him while he picks up where he left off with the two women he was dating the last time he moved there and thought I would support him. If his history repeats as it always does she will lose everything. Little does she realize his promises and dreams require her to pay his way while he’s screwing around. They can create whatever narrative they want however it will always be the disordered following the disordered. This was my old life and I miss not one thing about life with a selfish narc. He is not complicated, rather simple. He is a serial cheating liar. Thanks to CN I am recovering nicely from his narcissistic abuse. The dance the kiss fantasy he has been living fir yeas will endlessly repeat itself. Freedom Day is my own celebration as I now have a future!

    • Donna, oddly enough my ex heads to Florida every weekend to suck off of his whore. She managed to get the little condo they shack up in from her husband in her divorce settlement. He absolutely lives off of the money her ex husband gave her in their divorce. She paid for his hotel room he lived in, new suits that were custom made, his tuition to finish his PhD, his divorce lawyer, a car cause he ruined his other car running it over 50,000 miles a year back and forth to her for “special” nookie! Now he owes for taxes and I’m sure she’ll pay that too! I’m just curious as to what will happen when her money runs out? This is a 60 year old sick man who lost all his assets and most of his retirement and future earnings to me in the divorce! I figure that they will both be pretty much homeless soon! Ahh! Karma! I also wonder how long he can keep his job here when he only comes back from Florida to work 3 days out of each week? Seems the whore doesn’t work at all. Are you sure we weren’t married to the same fucktard?

  • submerging yourself in these thoughts day after day after day will only keep you stuck.

    Here’s my advice, find some friends. Get out in the fresh air and sunshine. Do something active or charitable rather than submerging yourself in hatred for someone you should no longer care about or think about.

    Sending good energy your way.

    • You wouldn’t know “good energy” if you got 1,000 milliamperes of it applied directly to the top of your pointy troll head.

      Good people don’t criticize the grieving for how they grieve, and they certainly don’t do it from behind a proxy IP address. You know who does that shit? Soulless cowards.

    • We know–trolls LIVE in the fresh air and sunshine, at least the air and sunshine that can be found under bridges. Let’s hope no one drives a herd of cattle across your bridge, or the air might not be that fresh (kind of like your advice).

    • Nomar when I spot a troll I always imagine it is one of the cheater whores. My theory is that once the honest spouse with integrity moves on and begins healing and get a divorce the cheaters no longer have much to talk about anymore. Let’s remember their relationship was based on lies about their spouses, hooking up in cars, getting drunk, gambling, porn, and sleazy sex. Their relationships involve two shitty characters acting, mirroring, and fucking. The newness wears off and at some point the needy critters are stuck without kibbles, supply, and the never ending quest for narc attention. They are angry because we still have a supportive loving environment reminiscent of what they left behind. The front door is locked so they have to find a window open. Such sad sorrowful slugs lost in a sea of chumps. I’m guessing things for them aren’t too exciting anymore.

      • You are right on the money, Donna. Without the chump what on earth do they have. Their lying, manipulating, sleazy, cheater ways. That’s no fun without that poor hypotenuse for their triangle of lurve.

  • Here’s my advice, stop using proxy IP addresses to troll my site.

    Yeah, the problem with chumps is they need friends and are mired in hatred and lack sunshine.

    Sending your “good energy” does not disguise your insults.

  • I for one believe it is complicated. I for one dont see how you can go years lying and screwing around. The logistics the planning the lying….. sounds like a lot of complex work to me! I told my wife last night she was a whore without a conscious…. she seemed unhappy with that assessment…. I for one could have never looked her in the eyes again if i had strayed!

  • It is not complicated.
    It is binary.
    The day I stopped trying to see life through his perspective, my reality became pretty simple. His perspective is nuts.
    I think relationships should be able to last without compromising reality. All his mind tricks for power and dominance were so destructive. I often felt like I had been banged in the head by a metal pole after speaking with him. He was trying to change the Earth’s magnetism & I was interfering.

    Over the last dozen years, I have had countless people tell me that they ‘get’ Loki when I do not. My most recent reply is, “I sure hope you do not ‘get’ him. Unless you have sociopathic holes widdled in your brain, he should always be a stranger.”
    I think that people (from my old community) hated me (more than they loved him). I have a serious take on life while he was carefree. I have a streak of mischief, but I have never had the gile of that bastard.
    I will always live with the engraved memory of betrayal. It was too great to forget. My so- called friends sold me out and kept Barabas. My own family was embarrassed by me when they saw the condition I was left in.

    Sigh. IceCream time.

    • Friend, great, clear description of what it takes to move forward. i am enjoying reality without nuts now too.

      i hope it was very yummy ice cream — without any nuts!

      • I agree Friend – you walloped me as I’m reading through comments. The mind-tricks for power, domination (since I gave up my job for his), and his general control of all things in our lives…shit – I sure lost myself trying to stay up with all his ‘ideas’ on improving the universe all on his own. I finally told him – Hey – why don’t YOU run for President if you think everything is fucked up? He was all talk and no action and his ideas about the financial world collapsing became increasingly crazy….making me think we were always poor as a result. Well, I’m glad his crazy ass is out of here. Yeah, damn smart guy and nobody could relate to him. Certainly I failed the test after 35 yrs. Good luck to schoomps…the gold digger.

        • SheChump,
          They think they are so cunning and brilliant. They have gotten away with so much.
          The story does not end here… there is something greater than these quacks. CN is building an impenetrable fortress of wisdom.

  • It has to be complicated to be a cheater! The amount of time and energy expended to lie to your spouse and family, steal the hopes and dreams from your spouse, and destroy everyone in your path is unimaginable. But unfortunately, it is only unimaginable to us kind, loyal Chumps.

    What is not complicated is the devastation that a cheater leaves in their wake. Families are destroyed and spouses are gutted while the cheater gets to walk away. What is not complicated is the everlasting effect that the betrayal will have. What is not complicated is that no one should be broken by the person they trusted with their life.

    I am so done with the whole “it is complicated” bullshit!

    It should not be complicated to be a good person and a faithful spouse!!

    • OneStepAtATime, I agree no one should be broken by the person they trusted with their life. I wonder how I ever loved someone capable of such unspeakable cruelty and toxicity. We do have the ability to heal from the pain and damage they created in our lives. With each step we get stronger.

  • Sorry NCStevie – the pain and destruction and trauma is beyond words. I wish we didn’t share this pain. I wish others weren’t hurt as well.

    All for what? I’ll never really understand.

    • I think that if you are a real person that you will not understand what a cheater ever thinks, what they justify in their heads, and the damn public relation spin that they are capable of. I sometimes wonder, did I ever really know that thing I was married to. The answer is no. There was no way in hell that I ever thought that he could put together such a scheme. He was too f*ing lazy, or so I thought. But alas, his soap opera life keeps on going, those plots, plans and ploys keep on working for him somehow. I just don’t have to be there anymore, to be his comfort zone. I won’t let him continue to use me as the place that he comes home to. It’s been hilarious to see how once in a while he tries to enmesh me in his soap opera life. NC is absolutely the way to go. My kids are grown and it still bothers me when he tries to suck them into his ongoing dramatic life (sparkles anyone) but they are my kids and we may have not been too good on the uptake, but once that damn duck started quacking, they saw him for who his is. They so wish that he was who he portrayed, the kids slip sometimes and wish that he was their old dad, but true to form that damn duck starts quacking and walking like the mf*ing duck that he is.

      • “I think that if you are a real person that you will not understand what a cheater ever thinks, what they justify in their heads, and the damn public relation spin that they are capable of.”

        THIS. There were times that my kids or the STBX would say, “Why is that asshole/crazy person, etc. doing x, y, z?!” I would always say, “In order to understand why they did that, you would have to be an asshole/crazy person, etc., because your mind would have to work like that. Be happy that you can’t understand it.”

        That is why we are left devastated and scratching our heads. It really isn’t complicated. These cheaters are programmed differently than we are. We will never understand them simply because our operating software is not configured to be dishonest, deceitful, underhanded, conniving and duplicitous. Cheaterspeak and behavior to Chumps is like someone speaking Latin to an Innuit while performing Russian dancing – interesting, but nonsensical.

      • So, so true. Looking back I am amazed that I didn’t see how truly disordered my ex was. In those last few years I really thought he might hurt me, this from a guy who up til then had seemed fine and had the “perfect life.” The affair ramped up his crazy, and like others have stated here, I believed he just had something physically/mentally wrong. Better than that though was his ability to spin the narrative, and to plan, for years, our END. It’s amazing the lengths he went through to hide money, destroy assets, and disippate others. When he began his affair it was almost as if he wanted to destroy me and then us, his family. Chump Princess, are right when you say step AWAY from the CRAZY. No contact continues to be of great benefit; I recognize now he is toxic. I will never forgive what he did. He still doesn’t own any of his crap behavior and he still messes with us financially. I have kept all communication, I want people to know who he is (and if I ever end up missing there will be a trail lol). To Chumps divorcing Narcs be sure to read all you can, cheaters are an entitled bunch but the disordered can be dangerous. It is par for the course. Mine was a peace officer in a small town. You will need a lawyer who is aware of the behavior. In my case my lawyer was pretty clueless (cheaters are common, but what wasn’t was the degree he destroyed us financially), one local judge had an inkling, but none of this helped me. Ex did his homework. And let the clueless family court do the rest. By the time all was “settled” I was reeling and just wanted to be far away. Sharing children with him makes it difficult too. He’s to this day unaware of how much his crazy, abandonement, and going scorched earth on his family has affected us.

  • last week those were the exact words XH said to adult daughter when she asked him why. “it’s complicated….”

    she will surely appreciate how to simplify it all by today’s mighty posts.

    great re-run CL.

  • I truly feel sick right now. My daughter is in a group, and about a month ago her leader just basically sent the parents an email she was quitting, effectively immediately. It was due to a personal situation, no details given. I immediately expected that her husband was a Cheater. I reached out to her but she didn’t want to talk.

    Tonight, I found out that the fine upstanding husband is indeed a Cheater. He started treating his wife like crap, and he has left the country to work, deserting a wife, a second grader , and a fifth grader with no financial support at all!! If this type of shit isn’t directly from Satan I really don’t know what is. It truly is evil, and has nothing to do with “LOVE”. Like I said, I’m truly feeling sick.

    • This is where I believe the law should have some consequence (and enforcement) on those who willfully and maliciously walk out on their families. Funny thing though when my ex walked, I was immediately better off. (It’s amazing how mindfucking it is to be with disordered.)

  • That’s so sad! And it’s unbelievable how this “club” we all now belong to, but never thought we would, grows like weeds in our gardens! My heart goes out to the new group of chumps who have to wade through this shit stew they’ve been unexpectantly served! I personally would continue to reach out to this woman if I were you. She’ll need the guidance! That’s all we are now, guides!

    • Amen, Roberta. There is an incredible amount of bad, harmful advice out there. I do feel like it’s a responsibility to help others if we can. Cheaters are running the show right now. Time to shut that shit DOWN.

    • It’s hard to understand what makes people choose this. Lying, cheating, abandoning your family, destroying finances. What a legacy. 🙁

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