You know you’re wading in deep bullshit when you see the title “The Unsparing Genius of Esther Perel.”
Oh please do spare us such genius.
Sorry. “Leading Mindful Living Expert” and “Certified Yoga Therapist” Ira Israel broadcasts to The Good Men Project and Huffington Post that Esther Perel is nothing short of GENIUS. (Like picnics are a few sandwiches short. Or loads are a couple bricks short. Or casseroles are a few peas short…)
Maybe Ira lost oxygen to his brain attempting a double Buddhasana (Google it). How else can you explain?
“Esther Perel commands a much more expansive breadth of knowledge regarding relationships than anyone I have ever read, her insights are blistering, and the manner in which she has aggregated the academic literature and assimilated her clinical observations is nothing short of genius.”
Maybe you just haven’t read a lot, Ira?
Frankly, I couldn’t get past the douche-y first sentence. “For patients who wish to deconstruct the myth of romantic love I always recommend…”
I thought people went to therapists to learn to get along with their mother-in-laws better. Or fight fair with their spouses. Or cope with their children’s drug habits. No. Apparently there is an entire segment of the therapy market that goes to Deconstruct Myths.
Do they sit around camp fires and read John Campbell? Are there hash brownies?
Anthropologically she observes that the shift during the Industrial Revolution from village to city life caused the burden of selfhood to shift from the tribe to the individual. Just as Sartre posited that we are “confronted” by our relatively new freedoms, Ms. Perel notes that contemporary urban life places the onus on the individual to decide “how much we eat, sleep, work, and fuck.”
I hate when the tribe tells me what to do. The tribe is not the boss of me! But how will I ever deal with the Burden of Selfhood unless the tribe tells me how much to eat, sleep, work, and fuck? I can’t be expected to make decisions! Damn you freedom!
The UBT can’t take much more of this article. Just one Esther Perel concept at a time, otherwise the engine starts to melt.
..her work on infidelity which she reframes as “a desire to feel alive;” she claims that the majority of people who stray from their marriages have been faced with their own mortality in some way during the preceding three years and their affairs function as a temporary antidote against certain demise.
I’ve done some work on bank robbing, which I’ve reframed as a “desire to have money.” I’ve also done some work on hegemonic systems and colonial rule, which I’ve reframed as “I can take your stuff because I have guns and chicken pox.” And I’ve also done work on the stubborn existence of my squidgy midsection, which I’ve reframed as a “desire to eat cookies.”
Esther and I should really compare scholarly notes some time! Over hash brownies!
Anyway, that’s not why I was writing. I just couldn’t skip over those nuggets without snarking. (I am avoiding the whole divorce is dignity over forgiveness shit. The bitter chumps who can’t get over ONE SINGLE indiscretion! Otherwise my brain will explode.)
I wanted to Deconstruct “Monogamy is a gift.”
What the fuck does that mean? Monogamy is a gift? What, you mean like a hostess gift you take to a party? Monogamy is a scented candle?
Monogamy is a commitment. You choose (oh damn those individual liberties!) exclusivity with your partner.
I’m not entirely sure why I find the “monogamy is a gift” argument offensive. I think there is this whiff of triviality, along with this monogamy as a dog treat imagery I have in my head.
Monogamy dangled over a hungry schnauzer.
“Have you been a good boy?”
Schnauzer: Pant! pant! GIVE ME THE TREAT!
“Are you deserving of the monogamy biscuit?”
Schnauzer grows more frantic, circles madly.
“Maybe I should give the biscuit to Ginger, the Australian shepherd instead? She’s been a good girl.”
NO! DON’T GIVE MY BISCUIT AWAY! (barks desperately.)
(Flings the biscuit.) “Here you go!”
Do cheaters even WANT the monogamy biscuit? Only chumps want the monogamy biscuit. I gave the “gift” of my monogamy to my cheating ex. He accepted it as his right and due, and gave me a counterfeit “gift” in return.
Here’s what monogamous commitment looks like to me: I am so lucky to have you. I respect and admire you so much, I want to be yours. To be your partner, would be such an honor.
I want someone to feel that way about me. Not give me monogamy as a grudging gift, or a badly chosen one, like an itchy sweater from Aunt Mildred. I want a commitment that is shared happily and freely. And that has substance — through sickness and health, for richer for poorer.
You can’t do that? Fuck the biscuit.
Another awesome beautiful May day laughing and Chump Lady. Seriously Tracy, you have saved my life!!!
I agree…I thank God every single day that I Googled, “My husband isn’t happy…” and found YOU, Tracy!!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
THIS^^^^ is EVERYTHING I believe to my core!!!
I think “monogamy is a gift” blends in perfectly with the whole self centered, entitled attitude that cheaters have.
I got married many, many years ago when I was relatively young and relatively stupider. But even then I knew I was standing up in front of our parents, relatives and friends and pledging that I would be faithful for the rest of my life. That MEANT something. I was in love with my bride to be, and I was thrilled to have the opportunity to make that lifelong committment. I guess I thought of it as a privilege to be able to make that committment to her.
But a gift that I was bestowing?
No, I call BS. That attitude is very telling. You have this “gift” from me which you are lucky to get, because I am just so special. But be on notice. Don’t let me get bored, which I probably will because I deserve to feel special at all times. Don’t get a little heavy and don’t wear frumpy clothes because you know how that irritates me. Be sure everything revolves around making me happy. Make sure my life is perfect, always, or I can yank this gift back at anytime, and you will have only yourself to blame.
Perfectly said Chumpguy!
“Make sure my life is perfect, always, or I can yank this gift back at anytime, and you will have only yourself to blame.” Great comment Chumpguy. Nailed it.
“Make sure my life is perfect, always, or I can yank this gift back at anytime, and you will have only yourself to blame” to which one could also add “On second thought, even if you make sure my life is perfect, it probably still won’t be enough, so I’ll probably still cheat, but just take it more underground as I’d have more to lose if caught”
And, “Be always aware that the criteria for making me happy are subject to change at any time based on my whim, and without notice to you. Your failure for any reason, in my sole judgment, is cause for revocation of this gift.”
Maybe it is like a gift card, that loses value over time and finally expires.
Funny mine always says “we were so young when we got married, maybe we didn’t know what we were doing”. Uh, well, I knew what I was doing. Were were young and stupid ? Yes. My parents were young and stupid too and they are still together. Monogamy and family life is a CHOICE. Is it somewhat self sacrificing? It can be.. raising children certainly requires you to be less selfish.. but I would argue the life long benefits of a wife/husband that love you no matter what are worth all the warts. Do we all change with time? Yes.. and staying married does require a mature approach to life.. which of course, a lot of these cheaters lack.
But it’s not “exciting” enough, or “passionate” enough for him. He wants a “different future”. Godspeed buddy.. I hope it works out for you.
We were older when we got married, but she still used the origins of our marriage as a reason for her cheating: “we had kids relatively soon after getting married so we didn’t have a lot of ‘us’ time before becoming parents so we never connected at as deep a level that i wanted so I had to connect deeply with another.”
You can’t make this stuff up.
My dad was a WWII vet, and he met my mom when they were both in college–he on the GI Bill after having served his country for several years. She was 7 or 8 years younger than he was at the time.
They married almost as soon as my mom graduated from college. My dad had been accepted into grad school. My sister was born soon afterwards. Money was tight, and my dad worked construction during the summers to make extra money. My mom held various part-time jobs.
They made their “us” time, and when my father died of complications from a fall 50 years afterwards, he was still holding my mom’s hand–for as long as he was able.
Cheaters just don’t get that grown-ups really do commit.
That brought tears to my eyes.
Tears of happiness for your father and mother, and tears of sadness for losing what I thought I had.
Hurts too much sometimes when you examine it, when you go there to what was and now what will never be.
Give it some time. You’ll eventually realize that “what was there” was a selfish person who pulled the wool over your eyes. You were wrong about your spouse. That’s what (or who) was there.
Yes Buddy, Elly is right. You can’t really lose something you never really had. I too was sad for a long, long time, but now I see this “person” for who he really is! We are divorced now, but he still uses my address for mail even though he says he’s changed it. I put his mail in my mailbox yesterday as he demanded it after almost a year of ignoring me and his mail! It was pitiful really. Here he comes, late at night, to pickup his mail under cover of darkness. Just like the creepy crawler he has become. He wouldn’t want the neighbors to see him or anyone else. But think about it, that’s how they are in an affair. Crawling around, sneaking and hiding behind corners. I’d be ashamed too if I were them. Now I see an individual who is a basic run of the mill coward who can’t face the real world! It’s probably a horrible existence, but their fantasy keeps them entangled in it! They invested in a “relationship” outside of their marriage and its with another low life! I just couldn’t live like that! I am so glad I am not in his shoes. I can hold my head up and lead a good life in the sunlight! Sucks to be them is all I got to say!
Beautiful story. This brought me to tears too, but I’m so glad you shared. There are days I feel like that type of love doesn’t really exist. Even though wasting half of my life with a cheater guarantees I will never reach my 50 years with someone, it’s beautiful to think that type of love is real. Hopefully I can have it for at least a decade or so 🙂
Perhaps cheaters want to RE-gift monogamy. “Hey, I didn’t bang my AP today, so here’s my monogamy back atcha.”
Yeah, right…”here’s my monogamy back atcha”…to assuage their conscience because of the nasty humanity itch that tickles the corner of their brain every once in a while.
Entitled cheater gifting…
ChumpGuy, newchumpatl: YES!!! Yes, yes, yes!!! He’s never “said” this, but my God, what else could he have been feeling/thinking?!?!
Never mind the fact that at one point he weighed over 450 lbs., never mind the fact that he has had over 25 different jobs in the 12+ years we’ve been together, never mind the fact that I have supported our household the entire time, no— he got bored, restless with himself and instead of standing up and being a real man, he packed up all his crayons and decided to go play in his own house!!!!
I’ll bet he colors on the walls.
LOL, yep- shit-brown- the color of his love!!!!
And don’t forget to add………….”you will be the last to know that I am taking back my gift”!!!!
Monogamy is a gift. Sort of like tipping your waitress. You don’t HAVE to do it, and so why not suck up all her energy, take up a booth, stick around and read the paper, demand extra napkins, more water, a bowl of lemons…special order everything on your plate. Be grumpy, complain. Leave her your mess, and not a damn dime on the table.
Love that, Kim!
Excellent comparison / analogy!
Yes, I always felt like the only reason he wanted me around was to serve him! That is a pretty common theme for us authentic, faithful ones, is it not?
And, I bet many of you here experienced this literally when you would go out to eat with cheater!
Forge on, ‘Gifted Ones’….ForgeOn!
I sucks when you find out that their friends knew the whole time and you look back at the odd way some of them acted when they saw you.
That’s right Kimmy! Look at it this way, he’s “regifting”! Yuck!
When ex was running out the door, I remember saying to him something like, “you stood in the church in front of our family & friends & pledged to love me forever & to forsake all others. Well, you just slapped them all in their faces because they believed what you said was true. Now they’ll only see you as a liar.”
So cheating is just monogamy, re-gifted? Got it.
Nice one. 🙂
Her hideous pontificating brings out my snark. 😀
But HARK! Your SNARK is on the MARK! 🙂
LOL LOL LOL!!!
You are a poet / Did you know it?!
Wayfarer, you made my day!
I can see this re-gifted genius on t-shirts, coffee mugs, motivational posters, and you’d make buckets of $$$
Wayfarer–posted mine just before I saw yours!
Touche, Wayfarer! Perfect.
THIS! Yes, Fuck the biscuit! And perfect timing for this post. I am a first rate Chump. He has had many many of Fish. X boyfriend moved last week and my Tuesday is soon.
BUT now he is asking me if I cheated on him. He misses me. He wants me stuck in limbo and chaste waiting for him only. Maybe next week he will “drop by.” While he plays and pursues his many lusts, he dangles a counterfeit biscuit just for me!
Maybe next week he will drop by, but you won’t be there. Do NOT feed his entitlement to have you.
Go No Contact. Stop talking to him. He’s not right for you. You’re better than that. You hang around with this abusive loser, and you’ll regret the time you wasted with him. He is no good for your self esteem.
Find someone who loves you back.
“BUT now he is asking me if I cheated on him. He misses me”
I’m familiar with this tune. Guilty dog barking on the first. He misses messing with your head because it’s so much fun for him. Leave that dog at the pound he’s not only flea infested he has a case of rabies. Miss Sunshine is correct.
Thank you Miss Sunshine and Chumpy. Needed that!! The hovering is clearly beginning, and after some reflection I think this is why I felt good today. My desire for him and the guilt for having it compounds my misery. I trust he sucks, he is in the 1% club (truly the worst offender!) and he will never change.
And I know I am still Of Use to him. Things aren’t so rosy in his new bachelor roommate situation and job hunting, while I am just starting to do well. He thinks he can have his freedom to date/hook up at bars and have me too. On his terms, when he wants. Of course he will date others and say he is monogamous to keep me monogamous with him. If I catch him he will incredulously say, “well we weren’t dating, I moved out!” so it will be my Chumpy fault. And he will happily skip on.
Glad I had your replies and CN support. I put a post it note up to remind me he sucks — in case I get all dreamy again!
That dunderhead Perel just keeps giving cheaters more crap to add to their already-bursting-full bag of mind fucks! Now we can expect to hear cheaters say “You didn’t appreciate the gift of my monogamy, so that’s why I cheated!”. I’m so glad I’ve been in Meh for a good while now, otherwise crap like this could cause me to have an anger-induced brain aneurysm! To all the new chumps, look forward to Meh, I promise you it will come to you, and you have no idea how amazing it feels when you start thinking of the cheater and what happened and all of a sudden you feel this incredible sense of lightness and giddyness as you realise ‘I don’t have to care about him/her/what happened anymore!’. It’s beautiful!! Much love xx
Yah know, I’m now feeling OK w/cheaters having all sorts of excuses. I spent a long time trying to convince my ex that he was wrong when he said that he cheated because cheating is normal, or that it’s not a big deal, or that he was unhappy and his needs were unfulfilled …. I just realized one day that I didn’t need him to see how messed up all that was, I just wanted to be with someone who DIDN’T think that way!
Ah, that lightness, so beautiful!
I agree, Karen. The day I decided that my brain and his just didn’t work the same way was a liberating one for me. I couldn’t understand why he did what he did, and I never will. And that’s okay!
KJ, Karen, Lyn: You are my heros. I had just a fleeting glimpse of meh yesterday for the very first time. I was trying to identify this strange emotion I felt. STBX told me after D-day that I’d “never find someone like him”. I actually replied “That would be the point”. I felt that during that meh micro-second.
Excellent comeback, liveandlearn!
I could see the Schnauzer dancing for the biscuit…Pick Me! Oh, Pick Me!!!
Like all “good” mind benders, this one comes as a lie laced with a little truth. It is true that monogamy is a gift in that we give each other our commitment on our wedding day to be faithful to the end. A wonderful gift. But it is not a gift in the sense that the expectation is less than monogamy once married. One of the beautiful things about being human is that we can make choices and commitments seeing them through to the end. Animals can’t help themselves driven by their sexual heat. We are more than simple animals in that regard…at least, some of us are.
Yes, the mind bender that takes a kernal of truth and turns it into a total distortion of what is happening. I think many of us, just by nature, are vulnerable to this ploy in the context of a marriage.
We want to trust and believe our husbands or wives, and we give them the benefit of the doubt in good faith. And I think many of our cheating counterparts are extremely skilled at exploiting this vulnerability. How many of us have done some version of the pick me dance because they told us it was OUR deficiencies that were what caused them to do what they did? And we bought into it in the hope that we could somehow make it right if we were just better.
Wifey, you haven’t put on a high school cheerleader’s outfit and seduced hubby in the back of a convertible this week? Uh-oh. And hubby, you haven’t spirited wifey away on a spur of the moment trip on a private jet to a seaside resort in the Carribbean? Oh boy. You’re taking me for granted. And you know how I hate being taken for granted.
Regardless of the consequences and individual meaning of infidelity, they still are founded on a few basic notions: unilateral decision making, lying, control, irresponsible use of shared resources, and exposure to health risks and pregnancy, the main one being dishonesty.
As a “Vanguard of the conversation that we need to be having about relationships,” is Ms. Perel simply leading us to a new frontier where dishonesty towards one’s spouse is accepted, regardless on the health, financial and emotional costs?
Remember, we, including Esther, are not talking about open marriages, single folks having multiple partners, or polyamory. We are talking about monogamous marriage, outright deception, lies and betrayal and all the real life consequences on children, health, finances, and sanity.
I agree: monogamy is not a gift, it is simply being honest and acting in accordance with your commitments.
I will be the new vanguard here and the new conversation that we need to be having about relationships is simple, if you want to fuck someone else, then tell your spouse, ‘I want to, and am going to fuck someone else tonight. I want to feel alive. Here is Esther’s TED talk youtube video for you to watch while I’m screwing my new girlfriend. When I return, I will bring roses and maybe a fresh week of new monogamy until I screw my new girlfriend again. During that monogamous week, I am allowed to sext her though. Tell the kids I’m working late. Oh wait, that’s a lie and lying is bad. Tell the kids that sometimes Daddies need two or three girlfriends to kiss. See you tomorrow, Babe!”
Is honest in a marriage a gift too?
Buddy – you’ve nailed it too in these comments like Chumpguy above. Why are we not hearing Perel’s answer to your statement, “We are talking about monogamous marriage, outright deception, lies and betrayal and all the real life consequences on children, health, finances, and sanity.” Why isn’t she responding to this? I’m starting to go from snark-induced disdain for her to outright anger!
“Is honest in a marriage a gift too?”
HA! As I was reading your post Buddy, I started thinking the same thing! Is HONESTY a “gift” too? Are we supposed to WORSHIP the cheater when they tell the truth? Are we supposed to be GRATEFUL to them for all those times (Years? Decades?) that they DIDN’T cheat?
My thoughts exactly. I’m not going to judge anybody who wants to be non-monogamous, I’m going to judge liars.
Deception and duplicity are NEVER okay in a relationship.
So the Mormons were on to something? Not trying to offend anyone, my first x was a Mormon and an incredible narc.
Buddy – hell yes!
For me it is not a matter of ending the marriage, or breaking the vows, or deciding that he wanted something else after 20 years together. You want to fuck other people? Go ahead! You want to start a new relationship? Go ahead! But for gods sake, be a man about it and do it out in the open and honestly. Don’t keep me stuck in a secretly dead relationship for years thinking that we are both Committed and monogamous.
These affair apologists so often talk about being honest with themselves, feeling alive, and all that bullshit, but completely gloss over the fundamental evil of deceiving someone else to stay in a committed relationship for the selfish benefits it brings.
Esther Perel + Hash Brownies = The usual swill she produces, but ramped up.
Honestly, Monogamy is NOT a gift. (Really Esther? REALLY?) It is A RIGHT! Yep, Just as James Madison drafted the Bill of Rights to the United States Constitution, WE have RIGHTS when WE agree to enter into an exclusive, committed relationship with someone.
Would Chump Nation like to draft a Monogamous Bill of Rights? It would partner nicely with the concept of our own flag.
Make it insightful, make it snarky, make it hilarious.
I second that motion.
And while I have the floor; I saw a pin with what a spider on marijuana’s web looks like. It is not very organized or efficient. Esther, you made your little piggie house out of sticks.
Wonderful! I call shennegins!! How do these people sleep at night?! My ex now can’t sleep and is developing ulcers in addition to deep deep debt! How’s leaving me for that whore feeling about now? Ha! I’m getting to watch the karma bus now! Way better than getting an apology any day.
Once again, the Forces of Fault-Free Fucking Around (“FOFFFA”) sow confusion and heartache by untethering words from their meanings
“Gift” means something, legally as well as semantically. Specifically, a gift is a voluntary transfer of property from one individual to another, made *gratuitously* to the recipient. It is a one-way transaction. A gift is often contrasted with a contract, a two-way transaction in which something of value passes from each party to the other. It is the mutuality of the giving that binds the parties to each other.
To state the obvious: Traditional wedding vows are a two-way transaction. They are a contract, with each spouse committing themselves to be faithful, among other things, in exchange for a mutual commitment their partner. Were it otherwise, we could get married to anyone we want by simply mailing them a letter stating we will be monogamous for them, by giving them that “gift” in Perel-speak. So to claim that monogamy is a “gift” in the context of marital infidelity betrays a profound misunderstanding–and misrepresentation–of marriage.
Fuck people who don’t want gay folks to marry. If anyone truly feels that the sanctity of marriage is under attack, the folks they ought to be fighting are Ester Perel, Ira Isreal, and the rest of the relationship illiterati.
Nice deconstruction of “gift” there, nomar!
I would also add that my understanding of “gift” must mean that XH *knew* he was giving it when he committed to me (even before marriage), that he thought about giving up his FOFFFA membership card and decided I was worth it.
I don’t think that’s what happened. Unlike some others here — and maybe those are the assholes to whom Esther refers — XH didn’t fuck around the whole marriage, just at the end. So he didn’t perceive a sacrifice until he met his One & Only Schmoopie.
IMHO, this couldn’t have been a “gift” because it wasn’t a premeditated “giving” at the time it was “given” — it was a mutual commitment to each other to love & care for each other forever.
To say the least, the argument is not solid.
A friend told me if it wasn’t the OWhore my ex left me for it would have been another one. He was just looking for the easy low hanging fruit & voila, there she was practically in the dirt, over ripe & almost disgusting but still tasty none the less.
My STBX said the same to me…”If it wouldn’t have been her, it would’ve been someone else. It was just sex, and it was convenient.” OH – so you didn’t even do this for tru wuv? Wow – what an asshole!
This speaks to the cheaters mentality. They cheat with anyone wiling. X was a narc who lied to all if them. Focusing on the cheaters actions alone helped me understand he couldn’t change. The pain of staying with him was no longer worth my energy or time. What the character disordered end up with is their burden not ours. If he had just told me he wanted an ugly whore to pay his bills I would have filed sooner. We really live better.
Of course, referring to monogamy as a gift also implies that you have no right to expect it, to rely on receiving it, to build your life around it It’s a gift. If you get it, be thankful. If not, well, it was only a gift.
You’re not so presumptuous as to be angry that someone didn’t give you the extravagant GIFT you wanted, are you?
You’re so spoiled and entitled expecting a monogamy biscuit!
Nomar, that seems to be exactly what Esther is saying. I don’t know how she thinks any marriage can survive with those ideas as its foundation.
The faithful, contributing one is the spoiled and entitled one.
The cheater is the loving, gifting one.
Me no understand.
Someone needs to put together a cute kitty meme: “I can has monagamee?”
Lol Nomar! I see a CL cartoon there 🙂
Hilarious – i love it!!
were it otherwise, we could get married to anyone we want by simply mailing them a letter stating we will be monogamous for them, by giving them that “gift” in Perel-speak.
Coincidentally, I think this is how some stalkers really think; it’s not a euphemism dreamed up to sugarcoat some otherwise vile concoction that is otherwise mostly a mixture of snake oil and bull shit.
Wow, I haven’t seen “word salad” like that in a while. HP seems to produce a lot lately. Another bullshit piece of loosely disguised crap dressed up as thoughtful knowledge, all for the sake of commercialism. Because I doubt this mindful awareness expert, yoga therapist is out there for free advice. Must be selling something. Hopium and part of the RIC in another form?
I wonder if Esther and this Ira person, ever get wind of the mocking they take here. You do an excellent job, Tracy, of ridiculing them. I wonder if if pisses them off, as I expect they have become very used to a legion of mindless drones hanging on their every word and praising them for how incredibly evolved they are.
I am constantly amazed at how, in justifying infidelity and putting forth their theories that monogamy is unnatural and that cheating is a search for self or whatever, they never seem to mention a couple of very relevant facts:1) Cheating requires dishonesty and 2) getting out of a marriage honestly through divorce, is readily and easily accessible if they have decided that monogamy is not for them.
I know of no religion or ethical code that endorses lying like this.
I wish someone would simply ask Esther or Ira why we are asked to accept that lying and deceiving another is no big deal to them.
Arnold, I agree. I honestly think there is more money in selling infidelity to the disordered who want to hear it, than selling to honest people about monogamy. Cheating sex sells.
I agree Kraft. Speaking of money making, I heard that Ashley Madison is closer to getting their IPO on the London Stock Market. Not confirmed, just rumored. (They failed at getting the Canadian Market) I’m not much of a gambler, however, I may actually buy some stock–not because I agree with it but hopefully it will skyrocket and I will get back some of the retirement that my ex-nightmare stole from behind my back.
“I wish someone would simply ask Esther or Ira why we are asked to accept that lying and deceiving another is no big deal to them.”
Believe me, it WOULD become a big deal to them if it was done TO them! These folks seem to lack the ability and/or the interest to follow the Golden Rule! If more of them did, many of them probably wouldn’t cheat.
I have asked Esther Perel to explain her views on infidelity to this blog. Crickets.
She does, however, follow me on Twitter. And “wished me well.” Apparently my experience “goes beyond infidelity.
There is a gentler kind of cheating out there that doesn’t require deception and gaslighting I suppose.
The only “gentler” kind of cheating is if you step out on your battery-operated boyfriend (or girlfriend). All other kinds of cheating, infidelity to actual sentient beings–awful, deceptive, and trauma-inducing.
She has a very sick analysis of trauma victims on TED. She also states, “responsibility and desire butt heads”. But then again I’m just a chump. What do I know? Cheaters understand that “desire needs a space” I wonder if she was talking about them fucking in my bed, the hotel, or her car? Needless to say “desire is abstract”. Isn’t that cheaterspeak for not being accountable. Now I get it, I just need to stop being faithful and develop my “erotic intelligence”. What these fuckwits can spin is the real abstraction. It’s all a foundation for justification and a lack of character. I just came back from a three mile hike with a friend. I felt alive! I didn’t have to fuck someone else’s spouse to feel alive. What a dread it must be to feed on others pain instead of living honestly.
Mine is manual. No batteries.
Esther is too busy getting botox injections to respond.
So I guess the gentler kind of cheating is:
‘Darling, I want to cheat on you. Is that ok?”
(Yes equals go ahead and cheat, we can have an open relationship)
(No equals ok, I won’t cheat; or I’m still going to cheat, so before I do, yes, our monogamous relationship is over. So now you have all the facts and you can decide what you want to do.)
Oh. Hang on. If it was honest and out in the open, it wouldn’t be cheating. Ergo, the ‘feeling alive’ is not the sex, or the other relationship – it is the thrill of deception and manipulation of someone who trusts you absolutely.
So my gift of monogamy was a golden ticket good for dwindling once or twice a month Cold Slab O’Meat would deign to get naked with me for the last year we were together. Despite me doing the demented baby monkey pick me dance with Guild Wars,And then lectures at the end about how ‘sex wasn’t important, he wanted a spiritual connection and to feel special and loved.”
Oh. I see. I build a life for you, financially support you and cater to your every whim, but she wiggles her thumbs over a phone a dozen times an hour. That’s Real Love, baby. Just like John Lennon imagined it. Throwing your family away for some texts from a howorker. Hmmm. I can’t imagine why they only lasted three months.
Thanks for the gift. I can see why you’re three women past me now. You’re like the Oakland Raiders Snuggie no one wants at the Secret Santa gift exchange.
I got the same thing Luziana… here I was working a job, raising kids, taking care of the home, managing all the activities, the groceries/shopping/cooking/cleaning, and apparently none of that showed him that I loved him at all.
He actually told me “I can hire someone to do those things”… Maybe he needs to do that, because I’m thinking I am going to go on strike. It was amazingly demoralizing when he said that to me.. basically all my support of him- in all those various ways, meant nothing.
And I’ll venture that it just wasn’t the mundane things.I’ll venture you also showed love and tenderness on a daily basis. I told him daily that I loved and appreciated him. It just wasn’t “NEWWWWWW”. Well no one can keep up the pace of new infatuation that long. I lasted years. He’s burning through sparkleskanks like Kleenex these days.
Luckily for me, I know that he can’t afford to hire 2% of me. I’m too awesome. He knows it. His life is a struggle now. Boo Fricking Hoo.
I hope you find peace, I send you comfort and hugs. Know that some days are still sad but mostly it’s still a good life. Really, We have lived through a top five traumatic event. Save for the health of my family, what worse could happen?
I am essentially bulletproof thanks to him. It’s not right but it’s okay.
Luziana and Newchumpatl, you two hit home today! My ex accused me of ‘not showing my love for him’ , and when I mentioned all the ways I did show that love, from taking extra responsibilities for the kids so he could go to the gym and get an MBA to making his coffee, calling him pet names and saying ‘I love you’ and lots of physical affection, he devalued all of that, it ‘was just normal’ and ‘didn’t mean anything’.
The first time he said that, I spackled; he was mad, people say things they don’t mean when they’re mad ….
The second time I thought; ‘oh, really?’
The third time, I stopped doing the ‘extras’. I was still a responsible, affectionate partner, still lots of sex, but all the extra stuff and the ‘I love you’s ended.
So within a few months he’s having affair #2 – and guess why? Because I clearly didn’t love him any more, I never did all those loving extras any more (4 months of not doing them, after 14 years of doing them).
Interesting that the fact he NEVER did any of those affectionate, caring ‘extras’ for me, EVER, well, that wasn’t even on the table as a topic of discussion.
It’s not right, but now it’s ok.
KarenE–yes, the one-sidedness of it is chilling. When I packed up X’s belongings, I found numerous cards and little kissy notes I had written to him. Did I ever receive those cards from him? very, very rarely. He wanted to *receive* affection, love, etc., but was not so keen on dishing it out (at least to me. Who knows if APs felt loved).
Thankfully, I no longer care. That ship has sailed and sunk.
Thanks for the gift. I can see why you’re three women past me now. You’re like the Oakland Raiders Snuggie no one wants at the Secret Santa gift exchange.
Exactly!!! Mine has posted selfies of himself all day, every day and I would post comments and “like” them, and he would get mad because I was “stalking” him!!!
Interesting that the fact he NEVER did any of those affectionate, caring ‘extras’ for me, EVER, well, that wasn’t even on the table as a topic of discussion.
It’s not right, but now it’s ok.
YES!!! Over 12 years of doing just about everything around here- even when he was unemployed, meant absolutely nothing to him!!!
I know I am going to be OK and all, but some moments, I’m like, “DAMN!!!!”
My puppy enjoys a good biscuit and he’s way more loyal than my X! We stood in front of God, family and friends and spoke our vows. And he knew I had already buried one husband. NPD for sure, it’s all about him, he hates the uncomfortable feeling of being uncomfortable. So the AC, Radio, etc are all set to please him. Fuck everybody else. Let them be cold and listen to classic vinyl (sorry if this offends) but they have invented new music in the last fifty years. So if you’re depressed and bored and a narcassist just order a side dish cause God forbid you’re uncomfortable. What the hell, your wife and kids can wait in line for comfort! I’ll tell you where I’d like to put his biscuit..
Hahaha, you don’t have to tell us where the biscuit belongs
Right up his patriarchal butt, eh?
Indeed,maybe this new girlfriend of yours is good for you Arnold, heh
She is really good for me. Not new, though. 3 years now. She thinks you are nuts, as well, which is a good sign.
I read your comment and thought, yes, yes, yes.
We have a fire place as our only source of heating In winter. Ex would always complain that he would get to hot at night so would insist sleeping with the windows open in our bedroom never gave a crap if I couldn’t sleep because I was so cold. Would not listen to current music preferring classical or talkback radio or audiobooks on long trips in the car even with the kids. Oh and the thing that would bug the hole family and still bugs our girls when they are with him. Every clock in the house was always set 10 minutes fast. Never helped his tardiness, my ex will be late to his own funeral.
Monogamy is what keeps brothers and sisters from marrying each other….
This dame likes to act on her urges and is trying to make a case for herself. I am sure she has a fan base of cheaters. Anyone who reviews her book to accolades is suspect.
Seriously there is not enough salad dressing in the world to cover up the bullshit after taste of cheater/cheater apologist word salad!!
Gotta admit that as a collective group they do provide a lot of material to be snarky about. It’s analogous to the volumes of material Dan Quayle provided for comedians everywhere during his tenure as VP!
PF…here in Cali
As I meditate in my hammock in my Ananda Balsasana Yoga Pose and connect with the Universe as I’ve been instructed by my spiritual guru Ira Isreal, I ponder life’s mysteries and the meaning of my maginficent Penis.
Shortly, I will breakfast on non fat Flax and organic Marijunana dark chocolate brownies and a kale and fish oil smoothie to reinvigorate my awesomeness. I’m reminded of a deep quote by Ira Isreal, something about it wasn’t fish who discovered water, or something like that, I can’t really remember exactly because I’m still hung over from the cocaine I snorted at one hell of party last night. Don’t want to be a name dropper, but Tori Spelling and Gwennie were there and it was catered by Bobby Lay.
Anyway….I wanted to say something profound, but I’m anxious waiting for my agent to get back to back me for the White Dove Toillet Paper Commercial I auditioned for.
Anyways….just want to give a shout out to my man Ira Isreal and Esther P., for asking the questions they don’t have an answer for…friggin deep shit, makes me want to cry real frickin tears without onions.
I’d like to see the data on how many of the Esalen teachers have used their power positions to seduce their students. I’m guessing most teachers don’t wear their wedding or monogamy rings while on campus. I’ve heard some stories from some friends who’ve “studied” there.
I don’t have any problem with single folks hooking up at places like Esalen. I’m not beyond feigning some yoga interest to get some.
But teachers should not use their power position in this matter.
disclaimer: I’m not addressing or speculating about i.i. in any way.
I love it PF… living “in the question.” I’m too simpleminded and conventional understand, but it sounds so insightful and evolved!
The thing is living in the “question” can only be done while high on drugs. When high the question becomes clear, it’s like dude that’s the question to the question and it’s not the answer but the question to the question that becomes awesome. Just wish I could find where I parked my car after the high wears off and I have to question what street was I on and where is my car? That was deep…my brain hurts from being so connected to the universe.
Namaste Y’all or as Ira Israel says,..hey fish didn’t discover water or something like that.
PF your intelligent, witty responses are the best! You clearly have a great personality. I’m sorry your ex didn’t appreciate it.
Take a look at Ira on google images. I guess I can understand why someone in a relationship with him might have a difficult time with monogamy. I think Samson could have used his jawbone in battle. Makes Tony Robbins look weak chinned.
Cheaters were “faced with their own mortality”…and *that’s* why they cheated?
Add that to the pile of lame excuses for poor character: I’m gonna die someday; therefore, I must cheat to feel alive!
Well, good thing we chumps will never die. Otherwise, we’d cheat, too.
We ARE invincible. We have proved it. I’d like to see my cheater ex live the last year of my life or any of your lives. He wouldn’t have survived it, Punk.
Exactly! I’m going to die someday and I want to be remembered as somebody who made a difference in the world. Not remembered as somebody who left a blazing a trail of hurt with everyone they touched. My ex is a firefighter and he was always talking about “when I die…” And going on and on about all of the accolades and the reverence of a firefighter funeral. He fancies that when he dies there’s going to be several hundred women mourning his death. I have a much different picture in my head…
I bet my XH could conjure up this excuse. Only it was not his mortality he faced it was mine. While carrying our second child at 26 weeks I had a clot in the lung, by the grace of God I got through it and went full term. Bub’s was healthy and a great sleeper but she was not even one before he took back his gift of monogamy.
Unfortunately it took another 11 years for me to realise it was missing along with his integrity, honesty, moral compass and my self esteem.
During my “pick me dance” phase, my XW and I would still have sex…. But not intercourse because the woul be cheating on the OM. This is despite the fact that we did have intercourse ove the weeks and months and years prior to DDay. WTF? Guess the treat biscuit went to the OM.
I do wonder occasionally how the trust is between XW an OM now since they’ve been living together for almost a year.
I still have such a major issue with Esther’s premise that “people have affairs to feel alive.” Although I actually agree with this, there is a HUGE problem with where she takes it, i.e., monogamy is unnatural. No! No! No! If the problem is someone needing to feel more alive, then they need to go to Nepal and help earthquake victims, or volunteer at a soup kitchen, or take up sky-diving, etc. They need to enrich their lives in some positive way that doesn’t hurt their loved ones, i.e., NOT lie to, steal from, and emotionally devastate their spouse and kids.
As for the whole “monogamy is a gift” thing, that makes me feel like monogamy is optional, and we should be ever so appreciative for it. Maybe write a thank you note or something. Again, no no no. Monogamy is the baseline. It is the very minimum that we need for a good, committed marriage. We shouldn’t feel lucky to have it, we should be able to take it for granted. Yes, really, we should be able to take monogamy for granted. Ugh, Esther and now her disciple Ira are really screwing things up for the contingent of folks who are unable to think for themselves (or only think of themselves)…
“Monogamy is the baseline. It is the very minimum that we need for a good, committed marriage. We shouldn’t feel lucky to have it, we should be able to take it for granted. Yes, really, we should be able to take monogamy for granted.”
THIS ^^^. Very well put, suhshine.
If you and your spouse agreed to monogamy, that’s it. That decision has been made. Re-visiting the baseline agreement of monogamy is like revisiting the baseline agreement to wear clothes every day. It can be done (openly and honestly), but don’t expect any agreement from me.
I was going to post something similar about finding different ways to “feel alive” but then I realized that my serial cheating XH did anything and everything that he had a desire to do – ate whatever he wanted, drank as much as he wanted, traveled as much as he wanted, bought as many cars as he wanted – basically did whatever his heart desired – but it was NEVER ENOUGH. My only consolation is that all of his other women probably didn’t/won’t make him “feel alive” either.
Same with mine, Lizzy, and in the end he said I didn’t do enough to support him. I remember thinking he’d taken so much I had nothing left to give, and it still wasn’t enough. He was one of those people that was always wanting “the next big thing” to make himself happy, but whenever that thing was achieved, he still wouldn’t be satisfied. It was exhausting.
Same here- from cell phones to clothes to cooking to cars to me— nothing was ever good enough—it was exhausting!!!!!!
Oh god, Lyn, yes, that was my STBX. A bottomless pit of neediness. I could never fill him up, even when I poured my entire self into him.
I did write a little thank you note after I found condoms and porno. I wrote, ” I guess I should thank you for using condoms.” He got so angry at me, blamed them on someone else and tried to convince me I should remember something that I could not confirm at the time. I knew it was bullshit and asked the other person. Lies! He obliviously was not consistent using them considering the STDs. Sadly, I continued to play the game. Asshole
I want to deconstruct the myth that reading tripe does not hurt your digestion as much as eating tripe. Every time you include quotes from that incredible brainiac Esther, I get indigestion.
I was listening to a radio program, Delilah at Night on my way home the other evening, and this dumbass moonstruck woman called in wanting a special dedication song to “the love of” her life, her “soulmate”, the “most perfect man ever created in the world”, and wanted to tell him she was so very, very honored that he had “chosen” her to be his wife. Delilah asked her if he considered himself lucky to have her consent to be his wife, and she said, “Oh, I am the lucky one.”
So, I am here to testify that even listening to tripe upsets my digestion. I wonder if this idiot will be calling back in to Delilah soon when the “perfect” wears off, and her “soulmate” has dumped her because he has found another, more worthy candidate to be his wife. I mean, seriously, there was so much sugar dripping off of this woman’s delusion that it could cause an emergency insulin run to the 24 hour pharmacy for any diabetics that might be tuning in.
I am reframing my consideration of ever teaming up again with a male partner to my “desire to discover whether or not there is a considerate, intelligent, age appropriate man, with a sense of humor and a brain” out there. I want to include “can he define and uphold the rigors of monogamy,” in my search, because I never want to hear a sad sausage explain that “monogamy is just not a natural state” again. I hate to be such a pessimist, but I just don’t believe that “perfect” exists, and I think “soulmate” is an interesting concept, but I don’t believe in it either. I am of the opinion that if it looks to good to be true, it probably isn’t. I also believe that after a reasonable amount of time dating someone passes, that the initial glow of attraction wears away, and before joining up for a monogamous life together you better not be thinking about how “perfect” your union will be, and instead should say, “can I tolerate his habits and can he tolerate mine?”
Excuse me, I have to go check in to the tripe recovery unit. Thanks for listening!
Alternatively, her soon to be spouse might be calling in, when she starts cheating on him down the road. Sound like she is delusional enough to believe that this infatuation period is supposed to last. Once it wears off, she may look for it elsewhere.
Portia, you could start a movement like the MGTOW movement for women sick of dealing with male assholes. I et so many women cheater assholes when I started dating again, that I was just about done with the whole dating deal. Then, out of the blue, I met my girlfriend, who is the best .
I don’t believe either sex has a corner on the market of being a cheater, or of being delusional . I think many people have been influenced by popular fairy tales that espouse “true love” and other types of magical thinking like “living happily ever after”. I have two sons, and two brothers, and my love for them is so strong that I cannot give up on men all together. I have to believe there are some good men out there, somewhere, just as there are good women. I just happen to know some good women, because they are friends of mine. I think if men and women would actually be friends without the artificial expectations that there has to be some type of sexual connection between them, then the world would be a much better place to live.
I have worked with men, and attended schools with men, who I liked and respected well enough. I had no interest in any of them as romantic partners. I ignored any interest they may have had, or not, in me. I married young, and when I was married, I honored my vows. It is a choice. Being faithful may not be easy, you may be attracted to someone else, and you may be furious with your mate at the time — but it is your choice. I was not faithful for my spouse’s sake, but for my own sake. I am the one that has to live with myself, all the time. If I screw up, I can forgive myself, but I will never forget the screw up. Sometimes I have surprised myself by just what I am capable of doing or thinking when I am angry, but I have stopped myself from crossing the line. I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror, and see someone who behaves with character. That is my choice.
What the Esther’s of the world forget is that while we have many basic animal drives that influence our thoughts and behavior, we also have a brain, and we have chosen to live in communities that cannot exist without rules and regulations. If you don’t want to live under the law of the wilderness, you have to agree to behave in a civilized manner. In the wild, a bigger, more dominant male may fight and/or kill another male and take over his female, his food, his hunting ground. In our world, we don’t have to behave in such a primitive manner. We CHOOSE to live life according to a code, and code-breakers are punished with the Law.
I don’t want Esther to “deconstruct my myth” of civilized behavior. We may be animals, but we are thinking animals. We choose whether or not to follow our selfish base instincts. I choose not to.
Well said, Portia!
Arnold… I would argue that the MRA movement is in part a reaction to the Women Going Their Own Way movement… It’s called feminism. We don’t espouse everyone “going their own way” if they meet a like minded, same partner, but we don’t think women should be completely financially rely upon men. You guys are just late to the party and generalize more. (You seem to assume all women are hypergamous harlottes or something like that…) In time, I hope men and women will learn to recognize disordered individuals of the opposite sex. Show me a horrible divorce/betrayal and I’ll show you the disordered freak. Disorder knows no gender.
I agree but a lot of the support sites are late in recognizing, if they do at all, that this cheating deal is non gender specific. I firmly belive that there are good men and women out there. But, young men need to be advised of the dangers of marriage with the way courts handle custody, just like young women need to be warned about the danger in staying home with the kids and giving up their careers.
IMO, subscribing to the stay at home parent deal makes both parties susceptible to getting royally screwed over.
..her work on infidelity which she reframes as “a desire to feel alive;” she claims that the majority of people who stray from their marriages have been faced with their own mortality in some way during the preceding three years and their affairs function as a temporary antidote against certain demise.
“…faced with their own mortality in some way during the preceding three years…”
More BS. I don’t know if it stacks up next to “facing mortality”, however, I will say that being a chump is a life altering event, major league. I can say unequivocally that having been chumped, I would NEVER cheat on someone I was involved with. No way, no how. I never strayed or came close to it in my three+ decade marriage. At that time I knew more in the abstract that the hurt would be devastating. But now, having been there, I would not put someone I disliked through that meat grinder, let alone someone who I cared enough about to establish a committed relationship with.
We all have been facing our mortality since the day we all were born! It does sound so much more dramatic when spewed from those who wish to explain the whys of sexual cheating while committed to other people. The thrill! The newness! Exhilaration!
All of that can be found at an Amusement Park. On a roller coaster. Why do these “experts” patronize people who honor their commitments?
Because they are arseholes? 15 minutes of fame and all….
Dang you Word Press!!!!
Anyways….wondering where she got that info that those that strayed faced their own mortality in some way during the proceeding 3 years of the affair? BS!
Once the cheater is caught and the couple visits Esther in marriage counseling, I’m sure the cheater gives the “life is short/mortality” excuse. The problem is that the therapist needs to be trained to recognize the folly of such drivel, not reinforce its false validity.
Ira, to his credit, does let us know that she is just making all this up, “She does not quote scientific studies; rather she changes the playing field and provides provocatively fresh perspectives on relationship dynamics. “
I’m betting that 90% of adults have had SOMETHING happen in the previous three years that made them ‘face their own mortality’, whether it’s an illness in the family, loss of a parent, their own health, job loss or crisis, car accident, crisis with the kids, natural disaster …. So we would not only need the data on the cheaters, but for comparison, also on the population in general, and the non-cheaters.
The difference is, which ones does it ‘drive’ to cheat? The CHEATERS! The chumps? Well, those kinds of life crises and reminders of our own mortality probably make us CLOSER to those we love, make us value what we have MORE.
In the end, it’s character. And that’s why I don’t totally despair of meeting a good person, finding a new life partner. There are people of good character out there, I just wasn’t aware that was an issue, or good at realizing who I was dealing with, before.
Exactly. My wife started cheating ( I think) a few months after her mother’s death, and I have had a couple of her friends put that forward as an excuse for her. My father died 5 years previously — guess what I didn’t do?
You did NOT cheat after experiencing a reminder of your own mortality?
I am worried that you may not have sufficient “desire to feel alive”. Were you still “desiring what you already had?” If so, I am worried for you – perhaps individual counseling is in order.
I faced and survived ovarian cancer in the middle of my marriage and didn’t cheat. If anything, I was even more grateful for my husband and my marriage.
Why, from the “academic literature” she reads. Not.
Chumplady, kudos to you for putting on your hazmat suit to read this nonsense and parse it back to us safely in pre-filtered UBT chunks. You do us a service.
I’ll say it again, I simply do not have enough middle fingers for these self-absorbed selfish assholes.
Here Chumpion, borrow a few dozen from the rest of the Chump Nation. We will enthusiastically share.
It’s wrong of these “experts” to view cheating and monogamy together. If you want to explore new territories, then don’t sneak behind your trusting spouse. Cheating is a slimy, thrill to get away with something BAD, not a midlife crisis. These cheaters don’t want a normal dating situation, just sneaky sex.
Here’s the thing.
Recent research suggests that women can not have sex with someone without bonding to them. It’s all about Oxytocin a bonding cuddling hormone they release during sex.
Men do not release as much Oxytocin and even when they do, the effect does not last as long as in women.
Women like to think they are just like men, but they are not when it comes to relationships.
That is also why, when a women cheats, they are usually a lot meaner then the men and rarely want to reconcile, unless the man is their main meal ticket. Women usually want to marry their affair partner. That is why they continue to try to rekindle 5 even ten years after an affair with someone.
That’s why this whole Ashley Madison bull is just that……Bullshite. Ashely Madison benefits men not women.
The other issue then, which Chumplady needs to address, is women who are too eager to spread their legs for some horned out guy.
If more women would just say no way pal, I am not sleeping with a married man, and would actually refuse to sleep with friend’s husbands no matter how good looking the guy is or how unhappy the women is in her own marriage, then there would be less infidelity. Most women who cheat are unhappily married and looking for an easy way out of the marriage, based on numerous studies. It’s also easier for a not so in demand type of women to attract a high-status married man, if she is married, then a high-status single guy. What single guy wants a married woman with a couple of kids?
I know Chumplady has already scoffed at the idea that women need to stick together because most men are dogs, but it’s something she needs to revisit, IMO.
I have been cheated on in three relationships. The last wife who cheated swore she would never cheat, but then practically threw herself at a some young guy, when my income temporarily dipped, and he, eager for sex, could not turn her down. He did not want a divorce from his wife after discovery day. I did. But my wife wanted to marry him. The thought of marrying her however made her affair partner ill. He just wanted sex, but she really was delusional enough to believe he wanted more. Again, it’s the Oxytocin.
No. It’s the lack of morals.
Women are no different than men when it comes to cheating — they lack character. Not Oxytocin.
Besides, this makes no sense. If women are just ready to “spread their legs” for some horny guy, where did the cuddly bonding come into play?
Also, I don’t say “most men are dogs.” For fucks sake — do you read here? I have a son and a husband. I don’t hate men. Cheating is a rainbow nation — men, women, gay, straight, bi. It’s a character problem.
Yes. Thank-you. Women and men are more alike than most people want to admit. It’s all about the characters, or lack thereof.
AC, men can and do say “No” all the time. They don’t get a free pass (nor do most want one). It’s not solely the woman’s fault. I am also a man whose wife cheated.
The gender/sex of my wife and her AP is irrelevant – they both knew full well what they were choosing.
I think there are genuine differences between how men and women *tend* to experience infidelity (e.g., women *tend* to be more financially vulnerable, men *tend* to have smaller support grousp, etc.); however, the lack of character is a common issue that dwarfs those differences by comparison.
Another Chump, it’s possible that my ex-wife wanted to marry her AP. But, if she did, she never gave up on me. After I filed, she asked repeatedly (every 2 or 3 months) for another chance, right up until the day the divorce was finalized.
Six months after I filed, my wife’s AP married his girlfriend (and baby-mama) of several years. Best I can tell, that marriage lasted months, although I can’t be sure.
“he, eager for sex, could not turn her down” Of course he could — he just didn’t want to.
You’re generalizing and placing all the onus on the woman to regulate sexual activity. I had every narcissistic reason known to man (or woman) to cheat. My husband had been a consistent source of heartbreak (sexting women on craigslist, being disengaged from family, verbally and physically abusive, you name it). He also had trouble keeping a job and I made double his income even when he was working. We did, however have massive student loans, so the emotional areas of trying to provide in the face of all that was/is horrendous. Then, my dad had a stroke and my whole messed up family dynamic (I.e. FOO issues) kicked in along with years of suppressed rage and pain at husband for his trestment of me. Not. Fun. Almost lost my job, and had to seek mental help.
Enter ex boyfriend from college whose wife was cheating on him. I started talking to him, and yes, there was a connection there. I stared to cut him off and finally, basically, went no contact because that’s not who I wanted to be. His closing salvo was to try to get me to meet up with him to sleep with him because “our spouses are both shit, and I can pay off your student loans.” I said no and cut all contact. The worst parts of my nature wanted to do the wrong thing and I didn’t becaus I had a choice. That’s true for men and women. Both need to take responsibility. Responsibility is gender less.
Wow… Thanks iPhone for the horrible spell check…
WTF was that load of crap Another Chump? Give me a citation for that study, dollars to donuts it is utter crap. Both men and women fuck for fun. And lying is not more prevalent in one gender or another. You have some serious contradictions in that rant.
I am shocked: women lie as much as men? This has to be due to male oppression in some way.
Ok nvrmd, your sarcasm is pretty dense Arnold, apparent
Y I was wrong, the girlfriend isn’t helping your poor sausage attitude
Could be years of exposure to the patriarchy, Dat. May take some time to start hating my gender.
AC, my cheater cheated with a MOW. She, the MOW, has cheated numerous times on her husband and has never left him…yet. Her decade long fuck fest with my cheater was “the one!”, just like her fuck fest with her existing spouse who was her married AP at one time was “the one!”.
The MOW and her spouse are always up for reconciliation. They keep cycling through it, like she keeps men cycling thru her rectum. In fact this last it time with my cheater, he BEGGED her not to leave him. Poor cheater-chump! Gads.
There are greater differences WITHIN each sex than there are differences between the sexes.
I have found that many guys, particularly the older less sexual lyrics capable guys are scared as hell to admit that women love sex and can, in most cases, smoke the guys in stamina and endurance. Old guys are gobbling Via bra etc despite the side effects and risks, in an effort to keep pace. Sad.
Jesus, what is with this bullshit auto correct. Sexually.
Via bra? I give up.
Can I just say that I have decided that I really HATE these whores who try to make Adultery/Cheating/Whoring an acceptable thing? It’s just too ridiculous for words. I hope they rot in hell where they belong. And I’m not usually a hater either.
There was a point in my life that I was involved with a married man. It was wrong, and nothing makes it right. I am ashamed that it was something I did, and I resolved to be a better person. I am eternally grateful that it didn’t destroy their marriage. And part of me believes that my current condition is the karma bus hitting me.
you know what? I think you are what true ‘evolution of person’ looks like. Someone who recognizes their history and learns from it – rather than tries to find 5$ words to excuse it…
NO ONE has a closet free of skeletons (no one I am aware of, anyway).
All we can do is move forward sincerely trying to be the person our dogs think we are!
Best of luck, Working It Out
My cheating first XW got cheated on in her second marriage. My son tells me she thinks it is Karma, as well.
Yes you can!! Testify girl! I agree!!
So the premise that monogamy is a gift. If I give you $1000 as a gift, and then take it from you without your knowledge or permission, I am a thief.
Monogamy gift cards! They make perfect stocking stuffers.
But check the expiry date! Oh, you didn’t see that expiry date? That’s because it’s invisible until you actually find out about the screwing around.
I told ex after dday that I didn’t remember seeing the expiration date of our marriage on the marriage license. I’ll have to go back again for a look. But it really doesn’t matter anymore.
I think it’s a episode of “Stalker”. Here, now I am monogamous with you.
Hm. My ex was too lazy to get an actual gift card and just scribbled “I.O.U. one monogamous marriage” on the back of a scrap of paper. When I turned it over I saw it was a receipt for a Brazilian wax she got in Vegas while hooking up with her latest affair partner. Oh well, it’s the thought that counts, right?
My idiot’s whores all seemed quite happy to be side-dish fucks. One of them even stated she was only looking for a fuck buddy. They loved the gifts and occasional sex, and that’s all they seemed to want. They were also shameless and aggressive. In the early phase I tried shooing them off, but they were determined little bitches. I think they all could’ve benefited from some oxytocin.
And why on earth would it be YOUR job to shoo anybody off from your idiot??????? I’m assuming you were with a functioning adult, perfectly capable of showing other people he/she wasn’t interested …
This was shortly after Dday, when I figured he must be having a nervous breakdown; why else would a man living a storybook life throw it all away??? Had to be a nervous breakdown. Nothing else made sense, and the depth of his narcissism was absolutely foreign to me at the time. Stupid little me thought that these lecherous women were capitalizing on his time of weakness… It makes me sick now to think back on it. Believe me, I’m much better now, and will be much better off when he finally moves out.
Oh gosh, ItsAJourney, I can’t even imagine how hard it must be to still be living in the same house with him! I watched a friend go through that, 8 months living with the cheater, knowing that the relationship was DEAD for her, until they got the house arrangements straightened out. I swear that a year after that was finally resolved and they were really separated, she had gotten 10 years younger! Never mind how much happier! I hope the same happens for you.
The definition of monogamy to Perel: any time your penis is not in your AP’s vagina.
“her insights are blistering”
Yes, in the same way that putting your hand on a hot stove is blistering. Or dipping your foot into a vat of sulfuric acid. Or the effect on your retina of looking directly at the sun.
Some STDs cause blisters…
Ester is preaching to the choir. She is to cheaters and Narcs what Fox News and MSNBC are to the wingnuts on their respective sides of the political fringe. People love to be told what they want to hear, it’s validating. And a lot easier than being challenged on your beliefs and behaviors. There’s a big market for it. Just look at HP. If that nonsense wasn’t clickbait, they wouldn’t run it.
“Some STDs cause blisters. . .”
I thought the same thing.
But I guess it wouldn’t sounds so great to say, “her insights are oozing sores,” or “her insights are genital warts for your brain.”
My ex once came home from a business trip with his balls burned to a crisp. The skin was all burned and peeling off. He had some weird story about being in a jacuzzi with a couple of other guys and the water burned his balls. Of course, not one other area of his body was burned. I have no idea of what really happened, but this post made me suddenly remember that incident. Too bad his balls didn’t literally burn off.
“Esther Perel commands a much more expansive breadth of knowledge regarding relationships than anyone I have ever read, her insights are blistering, and the manner in which she has aggregated the academic literature and assimilated her clinical observations is nothing short of genius.”
Many years ago, my ex needed a letter of recommendation, and his boss told him to go ahead and write it himself, then the boss would sign it. Well, my ex’s self-written letter sounded pretty much exactly like that paragraph about Esther Perel, except he wrote it about himself, it wasn’t someone else’s fawning praise. So much narcissism, it makes my head spin.
What Esther Perel is doing is trying to normalize narcissism and deceit as some higher form of relating. It is not a higher form of anything. The FACT is cheating, lying, intentional manipulative deception, living a double life, having double standards, abuse, arrogant indifference towards the rights and free will of others, none of these things are higher forms of relating nor more intelligent advanced worldly ways of building meaningful relationships with the people in our lives. For her to try to spin deception and infidelity this way is delusional narcissistic arrogance… Esther Perel is not some advanced ground breaking thinker. She is actually using the same very predictable justifications and spin doctoring tactics that all cheaters and character disturbed individuals use. She would like to fancy herself as a free thinking relationally advanced and spiritually advanced individual that has so much wisdom and perceptive depth to share with the world as a “relationship advice specialist” that has some kind of magical deeper insight than any other advice giver has ever come up with before. She projects the image that she is this evolved thinker and that no one else has ever been able to perceive the complexities of cheating and relationship realities in the magical way she has. What Esther has failed to discern is that she is nothing special at all because every cheating narcissist uses these same deluded justifications, rationalizations and the same twisting of the facts to justify and or explain why it is okay to deceive, trick, use and abuse others so that you can get all your narcissistic needs fulfilled at their expense? It seems that she is nothing but a clever narcissist fraud that can put a shallow spin on some deluded concept in order to convince others of her own brilliance and gain a little narcissistic supply and $ while she is at it. She is selling the delusion that she has some superior insight and intelligence that has allowed her to magically understand how deceit, lies and arrogant indifference for the rights and wellbeing of others is really good for relationships and good for individual, personal and spiritual development Esther is selling the idea that this narcissistic way of thinking and behaving is a good thing to normalize in the psyches of humanity. Oh if only we could all be as wise and worldly thinking as Esther is then what would this world become. Just imagine.
Oh yes, I’m imaging Martha. Well then, perhaps Ms. Perel is right. In fact, why don’t let’s ALL be narcissists, won’t that be just grand?!? The world will surely be a better place.
But wait….who will take care of the kids? Put food on the table? Feed the dogs? Attend every school function and sporting event (even when no one is watching)? Be there every minute and hold the family together? Make sure the kids get to the dentist and pediatrician? Keep the house and family running? Care for aging parents?
How utterly MUNDANE and beneath the fabulous beings that were our exes and their AP’s. Why, someone has to take care of business, and it has to be the little people! You know, chumps like US. So no, only the super special sparkly ones can occupy that charming world.
Blech, good riddance to Perel and her ilk. The phrase “something wicked this way comes” keeps running through my mind.
I see Cleo Everest has a comment on the HP article. Her blog “His Giant Mistake” is a good read – I got some insightful nuggets there when trying to make sense of it all.
People cheat for reasons related to THEM…the cheater. Rather than having character, integrity, and some basic regard for another human, they feel entitled, superior, and ‘above the rules’. It’s a blend of narcissism and hedonism; an appetite for ego kibbles and illicit sex. Cheating is an easy segueway when you lack empathy. It’s about being immature, selfish, and shallow. As a matter of fact, the selfishness runs so deep in a cheater that they trade the well-being of their own children for self-pleasuring and self-indulgence. Quite unbelievable. I’ve been reading infidelity articles, forums, etc for 10+ years. It took me awhile, but I did finally get a handle on the truth about cheating and cheaters.
I recently learned my co-worker was cheating on her husband. Interestingly, she spews the same bullsh*t…twisting things to make her H seem at fault; rationalizing in ways that paint her as a victim who had no choice but to cheat; etc, etc. All bs. She had other options. If she was oh so unhappy, she could have been honest with her H and maybe tried together to repair or strengthen their M or been honest with him and ask for a divorce providing reasons why she wants out. Instead she chose the sneaky, cruel option…and absolutely devastated him. It wasn’t his learning that a D was inevitable, it was the betrayal & infidelity that crippled him. So sad. I am just glad their D will be quick and he can move on with his life.
Esther Perel and Ira Israel are just narcissists who have a way with words and the business savvy to market their brand of bullshit as sweet smelling roses. Because there are so many narcs out there, they will always have a ready audience eager to lap up their reality benders and “advice” to put yourself first in every situation.
I just want to say, I have tried a hash brownie and it didn’t do anything for me. It was so dissapointing, just like smoking pot didn’t do anything for me. I am the only person in America that can’t get high, and that’s a real bummer. It’s like I’m screaming, “the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes!” And they are all discussing whether the dress is blue or gold on facebook.
Idiots, I’d rather be me anyway.
That’s okay Jen, you can hang out with me. I am a square as well who’d rather go for a hike, nice dinner, maybe some wine – any day!
Wine is good. Keep me away from wine. For done reason pot just does nothing for me.
Just eat more of them, Jen.
you know, I always thought I was a pretty smart guy… But I just don’t get it.
All these ‘experts’, with their babbling justifications for shitty, selfish choices.
If monogamy and marriage are un-natural.
If they are incompatible with our evolving selves and society.
If those who expect people to honour their commitments and behave with morality are naive.
WHY THE FUCK GET MARRIED AT ALL?!?
Just stay single.
Fuck everyone you fancy.
Life is one great big Tinder app…
Leave us naive, un-evolved weirdos alone!
Okay? Deal? Deal!
Go Jobin go!
Sure, the affair is a “temporary antidote against certain demise”.
Yep. Just like cyanide temporarily helps you breath better.
Just like high triglycerides helps your blood flow.
He escaped certain demise by avoiding the suffering of… REALITY.
And don’t get me started on her ‘beautiful eutopic’ Commie ideas.
(I meant ‘Utopic’ Commie ideas.)
Actually, your misspelling is not misguided: “eu-” is the Greek root for ‘good’ and Sir Thomas More used Utopia as a pun (from the Greek ou-topos meaning ‘no place’ or ‘nowhere’ AND/OR the Greek word eu-topos, which means “a good place”).
Sir Thomas More, now there is an example of fidelity. I love his quotes in, “A Man For All Seasons”. I like, “Anne of the Thousand Days” too. Loki fancied himself a King Henry the Eighth… (Who beheaded those good people).
King Henry VIII: I pray and tell God, ‘do not place a thought into my head that is wrong’ and he doesn’t, he doesn’t.
My favorite of Sir Thomas More: If I go against my conscience to follow you, as you go with your conscience, will you go to Hell with me?
And Woolsey: If I had followed my God with half the strength wherewith I followed my King, He would not have left me in the end.
And, ♥Anne Boleyn: My daughter will be a greater ruler than you ever were!
Yes, admirable in many respects, but not all… if only he hadn’t burned those heretics.
They left that part out of the movie.
You’re right about Henry VIII (and his comparison to your X)–he was a textbook Cluster B narcissist. And I think we can agree that your X tried to metaphorically behead you.
Has anybody noticed that a lot of “relationship Gurus” tend to have had educations in things like Art Therapy, Physiology, or strange degrees from unaccredited New Age or Fundamentalist religious “institutions” before they found their “true calling”: re-labelling shop-worn bullshit?
Chump Nation has an advanced degree in Real Life: Cause & Effect.
Great idea, CL can start her own Ph.D. program for chumps.
Its because serious degrees would take one look at these types of people and laugh their head off.
New Age bullshit indeed!
I can say ‘I have a degree in Hamburgology – hey great! That now makes me a food critic!’
I’m going to break from the crowd here just a little bit and acknowledge that I actually agree with some of what Perel spouts off. Some of what she says has the ring of truth. Where she drops into the slop bucket is the conclusions she draws from her observations. She goes for the “cheating is a desire to feel alive…and that’s ok!” garbage, instead of what she REALLY needs to say which is “cheating is a desire to feel alive…and that shit needs to stop when it is at the expense of another person.” That’s where everything she says goes off the rails for me. Yes, there are social myths that need to be broken. Yes, it is problematic to expect one person to meet all of your needs forever. Yes, having an affair probably is thrilling and exciting (much like bank robbery, as CL points out). But that leap to “and that makes it ok” pisses me off every time. If you don’t feel alive? Go skydiving, asshole, and don’t drag my life down your bullshit rabbit hole of destruction.
I felt “alive” every morning when I woke up next to my ex, throughout the day & the evening as well when we climbed into bed at night. I’ve felt quite dead for a long time now.
It will get better Hurt1, look for things that feel good, even if it’s only the sun on your face, did I say only? The sun on your face is pretty grand! Jedi hugs!
hurt1, hang in there. As Dat has commented it will get better. This journey is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my 63 years but the only way is forward. Stay here on CN with us and you will get to a happier and better place with the rest of us.
Hurt1, that feeling will pass eventually. It took me nine months to detox. It really does get better.
Thanks all for your “hugs.” Things are getting better. Not finding a better paying job & still struggling financially just keeps in a gloomy mood. I’ll just keep plugging along for the new job & hope the sun will sun shine regularly.
Hurt1, I too struggled financially this year. My life was such a mess I didn’t want to make any changes. I need to have two residences due to my profession. And getting a divorce after the discard made it unbearable. I took on additional jobs to survive. Getting a therapist,tasking medication, and having a support system helped the most. Focus on yourself and know you will get stronger. Getting a cheater out of your life is a great accomplishment.
Seriously, why does the “desire to feel alive” have to involve deception?! I feel alive when a seed germinates in my garden. I’m all for feeling alive, but must you crush someone else to feel that?
This incredible bullshit about being honest with ourselves about monogamy is infuriating. You can’t get more dishonest than concealing your cheating.
Spot On, CRHCHK!
Bad people being defensive, trying to “prove” that black is white and the sky is green. This constant cycling, running in the little hamster wheel, frantically trying to argue and prove it so, when it is just. not. so.
They are just sick, demented, DEFENSIVE, sorry-ass losers.
A- to the fucking – MEN Kelly!
Cheaters are like people who fake the dog out with pretending to throw a biscuit, don’t do it, and then laugh. Assholes, in other words.
Cheaters are like people who fake the dog out with pretending to throw a biscuit, don’t do it, and then laugh.’
GREAT analogy about cruelty. You can add a smirk to that too.
I may be missing something here, this has to have been done.
I think most of the people here are quite sympatico in understanding the devastation that infidelity causes. We seem to “get” how it feels.
It would be absolutely fascinating to hear from one of these advanced, elite sophisticates after they have been chumped. Not from someone who drifts from relationship to relationship. But someone who had previously felt they were oh so above it all, but ended up falling in love and building a life around someone, who, years later, betrayed them and a family for no other reason than because they could.
Does the arrogance survive this, or do they finally understand what people like us are talking about? Do they ever “get” how it feels?
No, they will never get how it feels. Most of these freaks are totally disordered, NPD. They are not capable of empathy, and they are not capable of grasping consequences of their own actions. If Esther Perel gets chumped, she will cry and wail about how unfair it is, but she will NOT make the connection that anyone else might feel that way in the same situation, because she sees herself as superior and different than everyone else.
Just look at Tori Spelling. She hooked up with Dean McCheaterpants via infidelity, yet does she appear to grasp the karma bus in action as she is herself cheated on? Nope. She simply cries and cannot understand how this could happen to her, even though she did the exact same thing herself.
Don’t know about other narcs, but I’m betting my ex wouldn’t have been that devastated if I had cheated. Firstly because his connections to others are extremely shallow, so I was never actually THAT important to him other than as a first-class kibble dispenser. As long as I either kept dispensing kibbles to him during my affair, or there was another kibble dispenser nearby that he could swap in, he’d have been fine. Secondly because he was devaluing me and our life together anyway, ’cause that’s what he does, so how upset could he be by losing something he didn’t value to begin with? And thirdly because it would have totally made him feel GREAT about his cheating, justified it, he would have felt that legitimized his screwing around whenever he felt like it, AS LONG AS I kept dispensing kibbles! Maybe we could have told each other what evolved, sophisticated people we were, each having our ‘secret garden’ in our fabulous life together!
My ex actually does say ‘now he gets it’, because I wouldn’t have him back, and his kids have dumped his ass too (he was a mediocre dad always, and then very very clearly made them Plan C after we separated). And yet, for all he’s ‘changed’, and wants to ‘never hurt anyone again’, he’s still incredibly self-centered, demanding, manipulative, still blames others for every problem, etc. The arrogance took a hit, but it appears to have bounced right back.
Narcs are so predictable.
I am having trouble posting this, and other posts, not sure why.
I read that study. It is true about the oxytocin is released more heavily in women during petting and kissing and sex. It is also true that women become more bonded to their affair partners.
Nonetheless, ChumpLady is also right in that it’s a lack of morals that leads to cheating. I mean, seriously, a married woman should not be kissing and petting and “fukin'” some other guy.
But I do hear ya’. My two wives did the same. I was making really big bucks, and then my company downsized so our income went way down. Meantime, my wife who swore she would never ever cheat because my first wife cheated, and her, my second wife’s own husband cheated on my second wife. So she claimed she understood the pain of it.
Nevertheless, as soon as my income went down, she met some wealthy married guy and had an affair for a year. I was clueless because I was starting a business and working my “azz” off. She was at home, not working and she would suddenly claim she was too tired for sex. Huh! I was tired from work but I was still up for sex.
Long story short, I finally found out she was cheating. So, I said deal breaker and she knew it would be. I filed.
Fast forward a year. I am now making big bucks again with my own business, so this time I can not get let go. Well, she’s back swearin’ she will never cheat again, and saying she wants to work on things.
Well, I had time to think about her and you know what. She did not work. She was a good wife until she cheated, but she never worked and as soon as I run into a problem she’s out looking for a wealthier guy. So, I said get lost parasite. I would rather die alone, then be married to her. Oh and her boyfriend doesn’t want her. He said he loves his wife and always told her he would never leave her. Their marriage survived and is thriving according to the rumor mill, but mine is dead. I do not want to be someone’s paycheck man.
But another chump is right about the oxytocin and the reason women get so attached to the boyfriend.
Please ignore my typos. Too busy to check
I do not agree that women get more bonded due to oxytocin, correlation does not imply causation, I haven’t found the study so would appreciate a link. Anecdotally, I am a woman and this does not apply to me, when I’m single I have sex for fun, I don’t get bound up with that, on the contrary I’ve had to back off when some of the men do despite clearly stated boundaries on my part.
Me too, Dat. I am a woman, and it’s always the guys who are getting more attached and wanting more, relationship-wise. I’ve always been that way, never wanted to get married or have kids either. Another Chump and Not a Chump, all women (like all men) are different…
Exactly. I have never believed the stuff about women needing more of an emotional connection for sex than men. It was not unusual after coming off the basketball court in college to be approached by women wanting sex. Many of my team ates experienced it as well. We were muscular with tight buts etc and women would grope us and send us notes re meeting for sex.
I lived off campus in a house with one other guy and six women. They were much more prolific in the promiscuity department, and, actually, much rancher and more graphic in describing their exploits.
In dating post divorce, most of the women wanted to take it physical way early. They had a greater capacity for sex after 40 as compared to me and most of my male friends, being multi orgasmic and requiring no recovery time.
How is your son doing? I sure hope you get to see him & bring him fatherly gifts. I bet he needs support and love right now.
My oldest is great. Lives in a wonderful group home close by and is really happy. My 25 year old is in his 4th treatment center, now trying to kick methadone after a year on it following 8 years of Heroin addiction. I just visited him this weekend and he looks much better ( he was 6’1″ and weigh 128 lbs when he left.)
He is really piss ed at me for not agreeing to fly him home and let him live with me. Claims he has no desire to relapse and is cured. I cannot make him stay ( he has been there 3 weeks and is supposed to do at least 6 months).
No way am I getting him out. If he wants to leave, I cannot stop him but I am not paying for any plane tickets or providing a place here for him.
strongest urge to relapse happens at about 3 months clean ( there is an incubation period where , despite severe physical withdrawal, urge to relapse is not triggered as strongly as at 3 months out.
I have read a lot about this nightmare of an existence. I would not wish it on any parent. You watch the kid you bathed and taught to ride a bike and whose diapers you changed destroy himself. It is the fuck in worst thing I have ever been thigh ,including infidelity.
Thanks for asking. Needed to get that out tonight as he just texted me blaming me for causing it all including his Hep C. It is the withdrawal talking. His neural opioid receptors are screaming. I have almost nothing left in my 401know but I will spend every last penny trying to get him well.
Arnold, there is power in love. It is pretty much impossible to protect a person from self. He is lucky to have you. Keep us posted. (I really care.) Perhaps, if you don’t mind, I will pray for him. I pray for my children every day.
So sorry, Arnold. I can’t imagine the heartbreak of what drugs do to a good kid. I’m not sure what separates us as humans not to take that little puff of heroin, or dope of whatever kind. And, keep searching for that high. As an addictive personality, I’m so glad none of that took control of me after high school. (I did acid once! that was enough for me)
Meanwhile – to quote you – ‘They had a greater capacity for sex after 40 as compared to me and most of my male friends, being multi orgasmic and requiring no recovery time.’
This is very true of me – woman. Especially at age 40! omg – I was out of my mind horny. My best love affair was with my Wand. I had 2 of them and they never overheated on me. I could lay on a bed all afternoon and have one orgasm after another after another. I’m sure a lot of women here know of what I speak, and I just think it’s a great gift that God gave Us. Us women. So, it’s very easy for a woman to get off, obviously – and a much greater experience in many ways…with a Wand (vibrator). I sure couldn’t see some guy coming along that would make my orgasm any better. (not to replace men with robots, but c’man, we’re talking multi-orgasms here) I could never expect a man to keep up with that no matter how old the lady gets. I don’t think a man has ever given me an orgasm, in fact (yeah – I’m one of those). But, nobody really ever tried. That would be my 35 yr marriage.
So, yeah – how can a guy possibly compete when they turn 50? Or 60?
My X just turned 60. He couldn’t get it up for me at all and he found himself somebody younger – for sex?
Yanno – I just don’t get it. I bet I have more orgasms than her with my Wand than she does with Hers.
Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Dat. Many, many moons ago, when I looked pretty good ( was Brad Pitt ‘ s body double etc.) I was continually encountering women who felt sex . They would bang anything that looked halfway decent.
was like taking a good shit.
I bet you are still a spunk Arnold!! 🙂
Never thought I’d see the day you and Dat would have a love-in! LOL
Okay, Arnold, suppressed this for hours and can’t anymore. Did it strike you that comparing sex with women to “taking a good shit” might be revealing just a weeeeeee bit of misogyny?
No, I meant the women viewed it as like taking a good shit or eating a good steak or something. I was never terribly promiscuous as it meant something different to me.
I was simply agreeing with Dat that there are many women who view sex as recreation just like many guys do. I ,in no way, meant that having sex with a woman was like taking a good dump for me. But, I think my poor typing skills messed up my post.
Thanks for clarifying that. : )
Arnold appears to believe women who enjoy sex for the sake of it are bad so I wouldn’t say we agree on anything except the idea that both genders are capable of enjoying sex without a commitment. He just can’t shed the baggage that says women shouldn’t do that.
I appreciate that, LL. I have always let him come home before . He lied to me and told Hazeldon had discharged him once and I picked him up and brought him home. My bad. I had no idea these folks lie so much. Not this time. My friends and girlfriend would disown me. My sister is a social worker and she supports leaving him there.
his texts drip with venom now, but I need to just remember this is his addiction/withdrawal talking.
I spoke with his therapist and psychiatrist out there and this type of behavior is typical at this point.
so, thanks, again, for the kind words.
I hope he makes it. He is a super good artist and really good looking and bright.
Wow. Stay tough. Maybe what he needs most is peace and tranquility? Or freedom from the chains of addiction. Food, water, shelter, strength, a will to live. I believe in God. I believe in miracles. You haven’t given up hope for him yet, neither will I.
Where on earth did you come up with that bit of twisted bullshit, Dat? I have never frowned on anyone having sex and enjoying it. You might want to try a reading comprehension remedial course ( taught my a feminist, of course).
It’s not a gift if you can take it back. Offering monogamy in order to capture another person is more accurately described as bait and switch.
If cheaters live on a higher plane of humanity and are so proud of their enlightened, sophisticated world view then how come they expend so much effort lying, sneaking, deceiving, misleading, stealing, gaslighting and generally trying to alter the reality of their partners to avoid getting caught? If it’s so right why don’t they stand up and own it before the world? Why don’t they tell children, parents, family, friends, boss & co-workers what they’re up to so everyone can admire what a terrific person they are?
Cheryl, great points here! If being deceitful is all that then why not OWN it?!?! My ex got a part time job at the family courthouse so he could really screw me over (way better than just fucking his skank racquetball partner!) and still continues to lie to everyone we knew and others I didn’t. I think maybe this works for the disordered, getting ahead and spinning the narrative. Miraculously, shithead “never blew his family up either”-either personally or financially!- we just apparently fucked our own selves over *snark font. And hey us Chumps should just thank our exes for all the gifts we enjoyed! Thanks for the gift of losing my house, right? Thanks for the gift of discovering that old HIV test. Thanks for the gift of abuse. Thanks for the gift that you left our children, the legacy of a lying, deceitful father.
Oh by the way, to add to my prior post.
If my wife had not gotten so attached to her boyfriend, I most likely would have been able to forgive her and reconnect even though I always told her it was a deal breaker. I could give her one pass.
The problem was she said so many mean and nasty things when I confronted her. She said she loved him and wanted to marry him. She called me a loser because of the temporary money issues. She said, I was better in bed, but she was still more turned on and in love with him. Hmmmmmmm!
Anyway, those things were the real deal breakers, not so much one cheating foray. I am not quite that unforgiving. I could have forgiven, if like her affair partner, she had stopped the affair, and apologized and gotten counseling. She did not do that. She got so attached to this guy she wanted to marry him and stupidly thought he wanted her.
I am upset so I am typing fast and likely making grammatical errors. So, please forgive the carelessness.
Notachump, you are not alone in this, many of us could forgive a one off, a true mistake. Unfortunately most of us, like you were dealing with someone that didn’t make one, they betrayed our love and trust. They didn’t care about our pain, only their own interests.
I guess I can agree monogamy is a gift…. something given between two people. What I do not agree with is taking the gift back without telling the other person. Yes if my wife had up front said…. “I met a 26 year old and I am going to fuck him when I want” would have been a bit painful…. not as much as the act in secret and the lies and deceit. Why the F can’t people just be honest?
Because they want their cake and they want to eat it too.
26 year old won’t pay the bills… and fix the car.. and mow the lawn… be a safe landing spot after a night of ‘escape’ and strange.. plus the power is half the fun, the knowing and you not knowing.. amps up the thrill factor.
Why am I not surprised the UNT blew up over this nugget?
“Ms. Perel’s primary gift lies in unearthing apparent paradoxes and this is embodied by her own confident yet humble and respectful presentation style. She does not quote scientific studies; rather she changes the playing field and provides provocatively fresh perspectives on relationship dynamics.”
Because head asplodes and computer chips burn out trying to find a study that supports her shit? Or maybe it’s all the accolades for talking shit with no foundation
‘Provocatively fresh perspectives’? Well, I guess outrageous bullshit does cause us to more fully examine our own perceptions and beliefs, and probably also provokes actual researchers into showing that there’s no connection between reality and the crap they’re spouting …. So I suppose it has SOME use ….
Why quote scientific studies, when you can just blow smoke out of your ass.. She unearths apparent paradoxes to give provocative perspectives.. That’s way smarter than scientist with silly studies.
Basically, after you read that a few dozen times, you realize what it’s trying to say is that instead of using facts, she pulls bull-crap out of her buttocks.. with fancy words that make cheaters think they are sparkly, and not turds.. “Oooh, I’m not a cheating whore, I’m finding myself!! yay!!…”
Gah! UBT, damn you autocorrect
Universal Narcissist Translator
or, since it was “deconstructing” Ira, Ulinginous Numbskull Translator
When I think about the kind of person who does this, who betrays the one person in the whole world that is the closest to them, who grew up with them, and married, and had children with, and built careers and a life together, I am absolutely dumbfounded. Working on that picker though and absolutely fucking sure that those two fuckwits deserve one another!
On another note wasn’t a new character introduced in the movie Frozen? A Narc “Prince”? Sign of the times, but for sure something to talk to our children about.
I am a nurse and I face the fact nearly daily the mortality of my life and every one else’s. I didn’t cheat. i have been a nurse for 25 years and never cheated to “feel alive.” I face my mortality on a nearly daily basis, and yet I didn’t feel the need to lie, gaslight, ect. So I call bullshit on that one! I have held the hand of many a dying person, until they stopped breathing, did CPR until time of death called, cried with family members over their losses, and my own, over and over again. You don’t do critical care and not be on a frequent meet up with death. Never felt the need to go fuck another person I wasn’t in a realtionship with. SO bullshit Perel, go crawl back under a rock and go fuck yourself. All around us are things of beauty and things that we can do to feel alive and that don’t require fucking a stranger to make us feel “alive.” So as always, yet another lame excuse to add to the list of why they cheated.
So true, Unicorn. I can’t imagine what you’ve been through – like most good nurses who face death every day. The stress has got to be indescribable (and thank you for trying to save my Mom). I feel humbled by people like you do who do so much for all of us – yanno– like saving our lives.
I can’t believe anybody could cheat on you. Now, me? I can understand. I don’t have those skills, but if I married somebody with them, I’d sure wanna keep loving them.
I default to the saving animals stuff.
Yeah Perel – what makes YOU feel alive – I bet her Wand looks bigger than mine and I don’t really want to hear any more about her or her Ira Israel with a jaw. But – makes for good convo at dinner tonight – how sex sells..
Boy, does it sell!
I would like for the two morons discussed here read today’s Dear Prudence. A woman with stage IV colon cancer which has spread has a husband who thinks she is selfish to want to stay on his health insurance. He says it is unethical to make him stay married to her. What gift he could give her is A LIFE!!!! But, hey! We certainly wouldn’t want a trifling thing like cancer to get in the way of him finding his bliss. Sometimes I despair of the human race!
There’s a Dear Prudence website? goodness. ok – I hope they have a forum to make remarks on this one.
I can read all sorts of things into music. This one sounds like adultery to me. Like all songs. ha – gotta get over that.
Her column is on Slate
A gift, huh? Thats why these deceitful fucks are playing Indian-giver on that gift right?
This ‘gift’ is not a fucking bargaining chip, you cheap whores.
Jesus fuck I despise this ‘New Age’ nonsense coming from narcissistic cunts like these morons. No qualifications except for their cereal box ‘certificates’ and a bunch of “Its all about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee” tripe!
Talking about death and these “animals” we were/are married to “feeling alive” in an illicit, backstreet affair just makes me feel sorry for them! Having survived lung cancer during all of this mess and then MRSA invading my lungs and body, I can assure anyone that my first thoughts while facing my own mortality were NOT to run out and start banging any guy who was willing to meet me at Motel Six! God! If that’s what it takes for these fucktards to “feel alive” and “happy” then I am ever so grateful that my brain is wired differently! I didn’t sit on what could have been my deathbed and think, “gee, I wish I would have screwed more guys!” For Petes sake! Whatever is wrong with these idiots I don’t care, but I’m happy it’s no longer my problem! My ex now makes my skin crawl! I’m more than happy to let his whore have him! I wish her luck!
Yeah, when I think about it, I felt alive when I held my stbx’s hand as she came out of surgery, I felt alive pressing her thigh into her midsection as she popped out our baby, I felt alive snuggling with her while watching TV, I felt alive agreeing to a budget trying to get her spending under control, I felt alive finishing a remodeling project, I felt alive watching our kids on their first day of school, I felt alive sneaking into her shower and getting cleaned up, I felt alive when the five of us biked to the park, I felt alive having friends over for dinner, I felt alive packing up the minivan and going on road trip kids bickering nonstop the backseat and stbx riding shotgun,
I felt alive with her.
Although maybe I shouldn’t have.
I felt dead knowing all this was somehow not enough and she tried to replace me with a scum bucket low life.
And Esther, you know what – I am not bitter. I am not some unrealized, codependent emotionally stuck victim. I am just a normal, high achieving, life loving dude who loved his wife, loved his family, and loved his life. I gave her everything and really she gave me nothing. Esther, this is the real story of infidelity that you don’t seem to want to tell. It’s not just a simple “whoops i wasn’t feeling alive” – my wife thought she could do better, have an easier life, thought she deserved more – and thought she was entitled to this without working for it or earning it, and as a result, used the fruits of my labor and love against me and actively tried to replace me, the primary wage earner, the primary caregiver, the force holding our family together.
Oh, but to this you say something like your stuff does not apply to my situation since my experience goes beyond infidelity*. No, I and others here speak the truth about infidelity. Real infidelity itself is far “beyond” your convenient interpretation of infidelity.
* [see https://www.chumplady.com/2014/08/its-not-an-affair-its-an-act-of-exuberant-defiance/%5D
((((((((((((((Chumpguy Wrote—–You have this “gift” from me which you are lucky to get, because I am just so special. But be on notice. Don’t let me get bored, which I probably will because I deserve to feel special at all times. Don’t get a little heavy and don’t wear frumpy clothes because you know how that irritates me. Be sure everything revolves around making me happy. Make sure my life is perfect, always, or I can yank this gift back at anytime, and you will have only yourself to blame.))))))))))))))
Chumpguy: Yes, there are hugs around your words. Chumpguy: I think you have the wrong idea about what most affairs are about. If your wife said any of those things to you about why she cheated such as “your boring” or “got fat” or “wear frumpy cloths” than I agree, run sweetie, run like the wind.But not everyone caught in an affair is having an affair for those reason. Studies show that most men who have affairs affair down. That means they are not better looking than the wife. Personally, I did not think my husband’s affair partner was better looking than I and I am not a gal with a large ego. I am shy and quiet.
The affair partner did have a different personality, she was pushy and like to talk sexy and she did. Some of the stuff I read made me blush, but anyway i digress. Not everyone has an affair because of something the spouse did. In fact most people have affairs because they are unhappy with themselves or in some type of crisis.
I am not talking about serial cheaters. Those types are unlikely to change. However, if someone realizes the pain they caused and stops then that’s someone who is redeemable and so is the marriage. I don’t think some people realize the pain an affair will cause, until they see the pain it caused, when caught. Just like a person who has never been betrayed can not seem to understand why the betrayed spouse is in so much pain. Relationships are complex.
The first time my ex cheated he sounded like that, seemed redeemable, did all the right shit and it happened again, don’t be sanctimonious, If the cheater didn’t confess then being caught is a red flag and if the cheater can’t empathize with the betrayed spouse there is nothing to rebuild
(((((((((((((((((((((Buddy wrote: my wife thought she could do better, have an easier life, thought she deserved more – and thought she was entitled to this without working for it or earning it, and as a result, used the fruits of my labor and love against me and actively tried to replace me, the primary wage earner, the primary caregiver, the force holding our family together.))))))))))))))))))
Buddy: You did the right thing to leave her. If she left you because she thought you were not earning enough, then you did the right thing.
(((((((((((((((((((((((DavidB wrote:would have been a bit painful…. not as much as the act in secret and the lies and deceit. Why the F can’t people just be honest?))))))))))))))))))))))))))
So true, DavidB, so true. Yes, it was the deception that hurt most. The fact that he wanted sex with someone else was very secondary. Heck, I often fantasize about having sex with someone new. In my case, though, I prefer age appropriate. 26 is the same age as my son, so ugh.
But yes, yes, yes. All the pain for me was all the lies so that he could sneak around. The sex really is a non-issue for me.
How very cool for you that the sex was a non issue, I can only assume this is because your STI test came back negative, if he gave you herpes I doubt you’d say that
Well I am pretty pissed about the unprotected sex with a 26 year old…. even though he had a fiance, what are the odds if he would bang my wife on the side, she was the only one? So far so good on the STD aspect… initial testing negative but some of the more serious ones dont always show up for 3-6 months post contact…. If there was any justice in this world, she would have ended up pregnant!!!!
So funny. This blog gives us the message we need along with such good laughs. The Unsparing Genius of Chump Lady!
You know, the stuff the so called experts write is so stupid that I can’t imagine anyone actually SAYING it out loud to another person. If a man told me, “I’m giving you the gift of my monogamy” I seriously probably would laugh until I peed my pants. Who says stuff like that, other than fake sanctimonious pricks??