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UBT: “You’re not capable of forgiveness.”

forgivenesstrollbunnyDear Chump Lady,

I’ve been divorced since February but now my ex is asking if we can “try again.” His last text tirade started with, “I miss you so much and want to be your man again. I still love you so much. Will you give us another chance?” I texted back, “I’m not falling for your bullshit anymore.” He spins out of control with dozens of unanswered texts before I finally block him. Here’s a sampling of his rant that I need help decoding, because I stupidly read his mind puke and now I feel the hurt all over again only worse than ever:

“You’re not capable of forgiveness. You’re damaged goods. Damaged since childhood.”

“There aren’t enough years in a lifetime to gain your trust back. You’re a man-hater; a woman scorned.”

“Good luck finding someone at your age. And good luck with your health problems too.”

“Hope you find a big one to ride, that’s all you really need to settle you down a little.” (There are several of these types, most include comments that he’ll miss my “skills.”)

“I’m going younger, she works at Notre Dame. Want to hear about our adventures? You know you’re curious.”

This is when I blocked him thank goodness. What’s your take on what he’s really showing about himself? I need perspective to shake this crap off of me!



Dear Micha,

I don’t think you need the UBT to realize this shit is just hateful. Boy, you can sure see how deep his desire to “try again” is. Look what you’re missing! Who could ever resist this guy’s charms?

But you want to UBT it? Okeydokey.

“You’re not capable of forgiveness. You’re damaged goods. Damaged since childhood.”

The problem isn’t what I did, the problem is your reaction to it. The problem isn’t ME, the problem is YOU, you’re damaged!

(So, uh, the way to get the best out of a “damaged” person is to cheat on and insult them?)

The whole “you’re not capable of forgiveness” is pure cheaterspeak. Roughly translated it means “you’re not capable of rug-sweeping.”

Your cheater is not going to do the hard work, or find humility, or empathy for the horrific hurtful things he did, or make amends or restitution. No — he’s going to blame-shift this on to, the REAL problem of your inability to “forgive.”

Apparently, you’re congenitally incapable of it, so why he’s expecting it, I have no idea, what with your damage and all…

If he were truly desirous of reconciliation and forgiveness he wouldn’t attack you. Can you imagine the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa if people behaved like this?

“Yeah, okay so I firebombed your family and stabbed your grandfather as he walked to church. What the fuck is your PROBLEM? You black people are incapable of forgiveness! I guess they just breed you that way.”

Amnesty or civil war? What’s your best guess?

“There aren’t enough years in a lifetime to gain your trust back. You’re a man-hater; a woman scorned.”

Boy it sure sounds like he still “loves you so much”! The guy divorces a vicious man-hater like you, and he can’t wait to get you back?

Again, same tactic. The problem isn’t him, it’s you. It’s your inability to trust, insert insult here (because you’re a woman scorned, a bitter bunny, a withered little raisin of hate…)

So what exactly has he done to earn your trust, except send you insulting texts?

“Good luck finding someone at your age. And good luck with your health problems too.”

The Cheater Curse: I’m The Last Person You’ll EVER LOVE. You were lucky to have me, because you are UNLOVEABLE!

Projection much?

Anyway, it’s just more hate. Aged people with health problems find love every day. He’s doing the abusive tactic of trying to frighten you into a relationship with him by running you down. Who else would have you? You’re a NOBODY! If he succeeds in eroding your self-esteem so much that you take him back, I promise you, he’ll just build that fortress bigger the next time.

You escaped this shit. STAY escaped.

“Hope you find a big one to ride, that’s all you really need to settle you down a little.” (There are several of these types, most include comments that he’ll miss my “skills.”)

He’s misogynist too. What a lovely person. I can’t imagine why you divorced him.

I hope he finds a big one to ride, up his ass, in jail, after he’s violated your Protection From Abuse order. Consider one, seriously. If he keeps harassing you, show these texts to your lawyer and have him formally put on notice for criminal harassment.

“I’m going younger, she works at Notre Dame. Want to hear about our adventures? You know you’re curious.”

Oh, the loss of kibbles! It’s devastating. Want to hear about our adventures? No. Yawn. Not curious.

The guy is desperate for centrality. He misses cake and the pick me dance. Dance pretty again! DANCE MOTHERFUCKER!

Please don’t let this creepy, hateful asshole hurt you. You took the garbage out when you divorced him. Let that shit stay at the curb. NO CONTACT.

If you ever needed a reminder of what you’re missing — he sent it. I’m sorry, please don’t give this guy the power to hurt you. Like you need validation of your worth from that monster? He’s gone, gone, GONE. And you are FREE!!! Don’t ever invite his hate into your life again. ((Hugs))

Ask Chump Lady

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      • Egads! What a colossal POS! Yes to what everyone else probably already said…NC and maybe expect him to try one of the other main tactics (channels). My guess is the anger and hate will soon dissolve into whining and snotty crying (just for effect). CL is right, you don’t want to let that thing near you again, stay strong!

      • That’s a great post, DM. It reminds me of the guy who says that narcissists only see people 3 ways. They are a toy to be played with (turn on the charm), a tool to be used (self-pity), or an obstacle (rage).

        Micha, don’t let the ravings of a crazy man bother you. It takes practice, but you’ll get there.

        • well said, Elizabeth: “They are a toy to be played with (turn on the charm), a tool to be used (self-pity), or an obstacle (rage).”

          • Yep. One of my friends is now extricating herself from a marriage with a narc. While she has no evidence of a PA, she certainly has seen a lot of inappropriate texting with some woman in a different part of the country, so the EA is there. He did the classic narc stuff with all of the above. He love-bombed my friend til she married him, and then he started using their preschool daughter as a tool for his self-pity. Now he’s in full-blown narc rage.

            And yes, he’s a professor of developmental psychology. He knows exactly what he’s doing, the evil bastard!

              • Yeah, btdt, I think that ship sailed a long time ago. Pretty sure she is or was counseling couples. This from the woman who denied cheating (months later admitting she lied then) and told me the OM (she was screwing) had nothing to do with our marriage issues.

              • You’re JOKING, right, DM?


                These people are complete screwballs.

              • No, Miss Sunshine, I am not joking. I remember her looking me straight in the eye and telling me that after lying about the inappropriate nature of her relationship with the OM. It was to distract me from her adultery and put me on trial. She was a smooth operator and accomplished manipulator. Too bad for her I wised up and now am happily married to someone worth my heart. Btw, she also told me she was being faithful to God in that conversation…I just responded that I believed her that she believed that (i.e. REALLY self-deceived!)

            • My narc cheater Ex also majored in psychology, though he did not pursue a career in it… incapable of any career really. But yep, knows how to employ the mind games.

      • Thanks for posting this link, DM. I hadn’t yet found CL back then, this would’ve helped, but I guess all things in due time.

          • NCStevie, thanks for that link. There is another great article linked there that I have read before that explained why I stayed in the toxic relationship for so long: Stockholm Syndrome.


            “n abusive and controlling relationships, the victim has the sense they are always “walking on eggshells” — fearful of saying or doing anything that might prompt a violent/intimidating outburst. For their survival, they begin to see the world through the abuser’s perspective. They begin to fix things that might prompt an outburst, act in ways they know makes the abuser happy, or avoid aspects of their own life that may prompt a problem.

            For me, this explains why I never dared question anything he did, and never suspected him of cheating. I was pretty much brainwashed. And afraid of him.

            About a month after D-Day when I told Ex I was going to counseling, without skipping a beat, he asked, “is it for abuse?” and you know what I said, I said “No” because I was afraid of his response; endured too many narc rages and couldn’t tolerate anymore.

            Thanks for the link.

            • I was never afraid of Xhole, he would rage to get me to “drop the subject” whatever that was at the time…. but I was never afraid of him physically. I was afraid of him leaving me…. this is my 2nd round of “single motherhood” and I didn’t want to do it alone again…. put myself through an ungodly amount of bullshit for 8 years just so the asshole could walk off anyway.

              I KNEW I was being manipulated and bullied…. had NO idea I was being abused. People NEED to be educated about silent abuse.

              • yes that was my experience also. i was never afraid of him hurting me physicAlly. it never dawned on me that he was hurting me mentally and emotionally.

                i was afraid of him leaving me. and took so much abuse for that. i did not want to divorced. i did not want to be alone. or a single parent. sad thing is i already was alone and a single parent. i just didnt realize it.

                i also did not think that our marriage issues were so bad. i mean i knew we had problems but for me they were little problems that every married couple went thru. i honestly thought we could work it out and i was raised to never give up. unfortuantly, he wasnt raised like that and does not have the same standards as i do. everything he ever told me for me to believe that he did was just a lie. i never had to deal with disordered and dishonest people so i didnt even see it until the end. well after the end, the this whole othwr side of him that i never even saw in 14 years came out. he is NOT who i thought he was.

                i wish i knew but now all i can do is teach my children. i dont want my daughter OR my sons to go thru what i did.

              • Ncstevie, thank you for posting this. I needed it today for some long overdue closure. It is bookmarked and I will refer to it again.

            • Muse, this is a great link. The very first thing I said to my therapist was that I wanted to know how to stop loving someone who could erase me from his life like I was trash after putting up with years of forgiving his cheating. I was diagnosed with Stockholm syndrome. I am finally able to breath now after a year. I no longer love the toxic abuser. Every night I can sleep peacefully knowing he is finally out of my life.

          • NC, this quote was in the link you posted: Changing the behavior of the victim does not change the behavior of the Personality Disorder.

            This^ should’ve been the disclaimer to every single book we discussed the other day about saving your marriage. This phrase should seriously be printed on the first page of every save your marriage book…then you’d know, if I’m dealing with a disordered person, everything written in this book, all the advice is erroneous.

            • I am still browsing the last few days comments… I have been busy with end of year stuff with my son at school and trying to pack…. so i haven’t been on as much. I agree with you ALL 100%!!!

              Changing the behavior of the victim does not change the behavior of the Personality Disorder.

              Yes Jamie…. that ^^^^ should be a disclaimer for any article/book for victims of the disordered!!

              I am glad I shared the link, that article helped me more than most that I have read about personality disorders. My Xhole fits EVERY single core feature on the 2nd page. The only one that doesn’t apply 100% is the “social disruption” he is an absolute attention whore… but not disruptive… it would taint his “nice” guy image.

      • Divorce Minister – I needed that link more than anything else. This is my STBX to a tee!!!! I cannot even believe what I was reading. I am no contact and the 3 channels are rolling in!

      • “The Mindfuck Channel” should be up there under “Cheating Decoded.” This post explains so much.

  • I was called a “sinking ship”. She posted all kinds of drivel on FB about how she had to purge her past to move forward, there was no passion, no love, she felt alone, and a whole bunch of quotations that seriously mean nothing. The truth is, if she’d look in the mirror, she isolated herself, was in a terrible mood all the time, chose not to engage her spouse or children in a positive and loving way, and had mental issues she refused to address.

    I look at her now, 2 years plus later and know she’s just a horrible person with terrible issues, and I’m so very lucky to be away from her. You’ll feel the same way. Seriously. But it does take time.

    So Micha, it isn’t easy and even now I still have moments where I hurt and feel the loss. On the other hand, I wouldn’t trade where I am now to go back to that monstrosity. Good for you for cutting the terror out of your life. This dude is an emotional abuser. Walk away, forever.

    There’s a whole world of decent people who wouldn’t dream of saying what he said, let alone put their spouse through infidelity. Good luck to you.

    • Oh damn, I was called “a bucket with a hole in the bottom”.

      Your projection is showing, STBX.

    • Scott,

      Same story with me. She isolated, withdrew, obsessed about whether the OM really loved her or was just using her, etc.

      At the same time, tells herself and her close friends about how she was transforming, undergoing metamorphism and telling herself and me how we no longer had the passion and couldn’t get it back – and all this went on for a long time while she was hoping the OM would sweep her away to a better life.

      But what she was really smugly saying is “I am better than you. I know true love now because I have a side dish fuck who is so enchanting. I deserve more now that I have tasted this true love. You may be nice and a good dad but are just on a lower plane and can’t offer me this deep connection and passion, and since I bankrupted our finances, you can no longer offer me the lifestyle that I deserve, etc etc etc”

      The reality is that she is a now a sad, non-functioning, pathetic, manipulative emotional roller coaster.

    • Scott, I do not understand why these idiots don’t realize that their stupidity is on view forever! FB is a great tool for staying in touch but this kind of stuff is just nuts.

  • Micha, what a perfect example he sent you of how getting rid of him was a wonderful idea. You’re through the worst, you’re already out, and yay for that!

    This all reads like my toddlers uncontrollable anger when she gets a toy taken away for poor behavior. The difference? HE’S A GROWN ASS MAN.

    I say wish him and his younger lady friend all the best of narc sociopathy misogynistic hell. He’s clearly already so committed to her, what trying to “get back” with you and all. He’s learned nothing from losing you, Micha….he is who he is and you deserve much more than that.

  • The funny thing is, once these narcs are unmasked their charms wear off and they can’t keep up the BS for long. First it’s how much they love you, then the abuse starts when you don’t fall for it. Mine X came over on Saturday, told me how much he still loved me and didn’t want the divorce. When I questioned if he loved me, then why hire the expensive attorney to make sure he got into my savings and my pension? His charm wore off quickly after that and entitled jerk came back out. I wonder how I ever fell for his BS.

    If they really loved you, why cheat, why be abusive, where is the remorse? What I can’t understand though, why try to keep up the false narrative that they really loved us and didn’t abuse us and why keep trying to get us back?

    • “once these narcs are unmasked their charms wear off and they can’t keep up the BS for long”

      So true! Narcissism is a disorder of the personality, it’s lifelong, and unalterable. The narc learns early, however, that the true self is not always appealing to others and the mask comes on. Chump Lady is so right when she says Trust That They Suck. The real them, under that mask, sucked yesterday, sucks today and will suck every day for the rest of their lives (and beyond). They will never genuinely seek forgiveness because they will never believe they did anything wrong.
      For what it’s worth, my husband was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer and given 6 months to a year to live. When he realized that none of us were of any use to him anymore, he completely dropped the mask and we got to see the full-on real man. Literally “no more mr. nice guy”, he was mean and nasty and cruel, and made it quite clear that we were of no value to him. All those tear-jerker movies where those last moments are filled with remorse for the mistakes, love and thank-yous for lives shared, and tender goodbyes? Nope, not going to happen. His last words to his son were to curse at him for letting the nurse put in a catheter. His last words to his daughter were to tell her to stop screwing up her life. His last words to me were that I could use the life insurance (cut down to almost nothing without telling me) to pay off “some” debts he owed (turned out to be 100K). Here was his chance, with death staring him in the face, to make it right and he would not, would not, would NOT admit he had done anything wrong. And your narc won’t either.

        • Lawyer said the 80k in credit cards in his name only was not my problem. I chose to pay off state and federal taxes (I was in no shape to fight the government) and local business suppliers (small town – I knew most of the people/families who would have had to take the loss. And they still talk about what a great guy he was). Only thing I regret was the $1500 I withdrew from my retirement fund to pay vacation money to his secretary so she could go to Hawaii to get over how sad she was that her boss was dying. Poor thing. That was before I found out about their 7+ years affair. Just call me a chump.

    • I just (like 48 hours ago) found out that Xhole is changing history. somehow it is ALL MY FAULT but even after the divorce he is changing the story. how i didnt let him see his kids on Fathers Day, and even when i reminded the kids went out of town but we celebrated Fathers Day on the friday before, and reminded him that fathers day did not fall on his weekend, he STILL said he didnt see them on fathers day. then he only saw them for 10 minutes (it was 3.5 hours, we cooked him dinner, had cake, the kids gave him their cards and gifts AND they watched a movie)…..oh right, now he remembers. (the whole time his girlfriend was telling him what to say)…..BUT then he starts trying to tell me that he had them on mothers day (which was true, it fell on his weekend and we werent doing anything) but that i b*tched and complained about it (which is not true, i didnt say anything before, during or after the visits, and i told him that)

      Seriously, it AMAZES me how easily he has forgotten or twisted the truth. of course, with his homewrecker telling him what to say. now he listens and believes her and everything i say is a lie. WTF. i have NEVER lied to him in the whole time we were together.

      it finally hit me like a ton of bricks as he sat there and yelled at me for 10 minutes, while his hood rat was in the back ground whispering shit to him……..that i dont need this shit. i was not the one who didnt come home and stayed out all night,i was not the one who lied, sneaked around and hide things from my spouse, i was not the one who didnt pay bills or support my family, i was not the one who walked out on my wife and kids, i was not the one who hasnt seen the kids in 11 months, i was not the one who is sneaking behind his back to see the children at their schools and getting denied, i was not the one who refuses to visit where the children are most comfortable, hell i get to see them everyday.

      his entitlement is crazy. his FOO issues are crazy. his rewriting history even recent history is crazy. his home wrecker girlfriend is crazy, his attitude is crazy, his forgetfulness and hatefulness is crazy, his life is crazy…..and the little boys and i dont need that kind of crazy around us.

      • Mrsvain, you NEED to stop letting him talk to you like that, you need to STOP ‘explaining’ or ‘reminding’ of anything, and you need to stop worrying about what he’s telling people.

        He’s clearly crazy, but people will figure that out, as will your kids. And YOU need the peace of not having to deal with this crap.

        • No Contact, honey. Get the visitation times, if he does it, set up. Set up emergency communication in the event something happens to the kids. Set up a dedicated email account. Send an email with calendar attachment once a month. Tell him to communicate with you by email. And as KarenE says, stop. You don’t need this filth in your life.

    • Thank you all a thousand times! I’m one small step closer to meh after reading your comments and feeling your support. I’ve considered protection order but since I moved 650 miles away from him I feel safe enough. Besides, aren’t they all just cowards underneath it all anyway? We have a few months of business dealings left to untangle before I can go full No Contact but he’s blocked from phone and texts. Here’s the crazy thing (and I hope it serves as validation for someone out there…we are NOT crazy or imagining things or paranoid when we suspect we’re being chumped-off): our break-up was triggered because I asked him about a picture he “liked” on Facebook. I didn’t even know what I was asking about really, but talk about tip of the iceberg! He blew up like a powder keg, left and never came back. And believe me, I wasn’t accusing or suspicious at all at the time. But his over-reaction made it all too obvious that I had stepped right into one big pile of cheating shit. Thank goodness I had jut enough self esteem and cash left to get a lawyer and keep him out until I could relocate. Maybe the greatest lesson I’m learning is that I CAN trust my instincts and believe my own lying eyes instead of second guessing myself. Call it intuition or our guardian angels or instinct or good old fashioned common sense even. Learning to believe in myself again is the take-away. Hugs to all and thank God I found CL! This blog is the best!

  • Ummm… Yeah! Prince Charming? NOT! Tells her basically what a “broken person” he imagines her to be, but apparently he just can’t wait to see if she’ll try again with him! Seriously, I mean, who wouldn’t jump on that “prize”? *snark* * *Gag*! Chumplady is spot on. Block “it”, get a protection order, and let the lucky little “younger” lady??? Have that piece of crap! You deserve better! No doubt you could swing a dead cat and hit a perfect stranger who shows you more respect!

    • Lol. That swinging cat can hit all sorts of nice people. I am still dealing with a psycho who tries to tell me how to live my “poor pitiful life” and is incapable of understanding how it was his very deliberate actions that lost us a lot of money. Who wouldn’t be pissed about that?!? Can not wait to get toxic out of my life!

  • The only answer to something like this is, “You may be right.”

    It doesn’t mean he is or isn’t. It doesn’t go into why you may not be able to forgive, such as it takes a repentant sinner to be forgiven. If they don’t think they did anything wrong, why would they need forgiveness? A concept foreign to most cheaters.

    • If they don’t think they did anything wrong, why would they need forgiveness?

      Good logic. I’ll try that next time.

      the other response that I have given is “Have you / they forgiven me?” That question will elicit the question “for what” to which I answer “for whatever I did that made you nasty / cheat on me / whatever in the first place.”

      That’s one way to stop the conversation cold dead.

      • During MC, XH told me that our MC asked him if he (lying cheating ex) could forgive me??? FOR WHAT I ASKED??? I never got an answer…..

        I just found it utterly ridiculous. I felt I was a great supportive wife and I have been and am, a damn fine mother. I did nothing to warrant his lying cheating ways…that is and always will be on him.

        It is sad though that some MC will also play into your above question. 🙁

    • Uniballer…so true. In order to have your sins forgiven, you have to be sorry. My STBX is dealing with a load of guilt right now. Does that mean he is changing his behavior, saying sorry to those he hurt or trying to make amends? Nope.

  • Good post, CL. It’s fascinating to see the flip from calm to rage when a cheater doesn’t get what he wants.

    One thing to consider:

    I’m no expert on court orders. However, I did read in “The Gift of Fear” that these tools have the potential to backfire, as the harasser takes them as an affront and then “doubles down” on the harassment. In other words, an order from the court (such as a restraining order) it’s just another form of attention, which is what harassers feed on.

    Has anyone here obtained a court order like these? Did they work? De Becker (the author) was a proponent of good old No Contact as the best tool to get a harasser out of your life.

    • Someone who was being harrassed finally snapped after an enormous number of phone calls and responded. DeBecker’s comment was that all the response did was to inform the guy as to what the cost was to reach the victim.

      • “inform the guy as to what the cost was to reach the victim.”

        I couldn’t put this into words. Thank you, Chumpguy. I knew deep down this was MO of certain narcs.

        I have someone trying every angle except disclosure and truth trying to weasel back into my life. He is trying to see what the cost is to reach the victim…

        …as long as it doesn’t unmask the liar.

        Instead of harsh words, it’s smooth talk with this cheat.

        • If I said “trying” one more time, I would not be offended if you ejected me from CL, Tracy.

        • Stay strong, CalamityJane!! Because chumps are kind, compassionate people, we are susceptible to “poor me” talk and other strategies to win us back. But these cheaters are Naegleria fowleri–the brain-eating parasite found in warm water. One day, you’re swimming, 10 days later the parasite has decimated your brain.

          No swimming (i.e., no contact) is the only way to avoid the mindfuck.

          • Completely AGREE!!!!

            we have such big hearts, and truly care for other people. it is hard for us to understand that someone would be so low to use “poor me” talk to manipulate us into feeling sorry for them. we WANT to fix it, we WANT to make the world better, the problem is HE doesnt really want to be better, he just wants someone to wipe his ass and clean his messes, he just wants to do as little as possible with the maximum rewards. he has zero problem with you doing everything while he soaks up the glory….

            but dont you feel sorry for him? NO!! you dont well then the hate, anger and cruelty will come out and be directed at you for not falling for it. You cant see that he is a victim? you cant see that he is TRYING? you cant see the he wants you to take care of him? well….then what a BITCH you are.

            we are really better off without them. they are just leeches sucking out all your energy, happiness, time, and effort.

        • Hang in there Calamity! My therapist once described this as “trying every door until one opens”. He cautioned me that it’ll likely never end and I’ll forever have this target on my back, I’m the first of likely many other failed future relationships…I’ll bear the brunt of his inadequacies for a long time.

          Just imagine he’s a frantic rat trying to find cheese in a maze. He will try, try, try until he finds the corner where that moldy little piece of cheese is. He can smell that it’s in there, he’s had a taste of it before and he loved it. He misses it. Don’t let him have one more taste, remove the cheese. Let him keep searching aimlessly. Fuck ’em!

        • Calamity, I had never been around someone who was a true narcissist before. I met a woman at work and became her “best friend” within two days.(not by choice) This was a giant red flag but because I had never dealt with anyone like her before I did not recognize it. She called every day. If I went someplace without her her feelings were hurt. She wanted me to go everywhere with her until people began to think we were a platonic couple. That was so far from the truth in my mind but not in hers. She would not take no for an answer. She would beg and whine and wheedle to get me to go places with her that I was completely disinterested in. She made sure that where ever she was I was to be there and where ever I was she was to be there. As I got to know her I found that she had married, cheated a couple of times and her husband, who must have been the most forgiving person ever, told her to behave herself or else. You can imagine how much she listened to that. She cheated again and then left. He was smart enough to find himself a very nice woman and remarry, happily. The idiot would not, and could, not stay out of his business. His wife hated her. The interesting part is the children all chose to live with their father. She told me that she had taken things from her office that did not belong to her and thought nothing of it. When she was found out she was nearly fired. I still do not understand how she got out of that. She is so facile and charming that people who meet her and only know her for a short time think she is delightful. I can tell you she was a leech. She began misquoting me to the point that I ask my husband if I was losing my mind. I knew I had not said what she thought I had but she was determined that she was right and I was wrong. My husband just told me to be careful if I was going to continue. The problem was some days she was so much fun to be around that I would think she was doing just fine and then this crazy person would show up. I cannot tell you how many times I have been embarrassed in public by her behavior. When I think that I put up with that craziness for nearly 10 years I am so embarrassed because I am smarter than that. Once I heard her belittling a very good friend it was the last straw. I stopped answering the phone, I made sure I was busy anytime she wanted me to do something and she is finally out of my life. So far, from what I can tell, she has run through several other groups of friends. I think if she was given a thorough psychological exam she would be found to have borderline personality disorder, narcissism and histrionic personality disorder. I cannot imagine what being married to her was like. She remarried and she and her husband were so volatile but they loved the attention they got. It took my husband one time being around them to say never again. She would go on ad nauseum about her pitiful childhood. From what I can tell it was not all that pitiful. I think she was born with the genetic make up that was easily turned in to this person. All I know is having her out of my life is like being able to breathe again. I hope any of you who are dealing with these personality disordered people understand nothing changes. Ever. I gave her so many chances as a friend to behave herself, to stop trying to own me, to just be normal and she could not do it.

    • JC…this makes my situation make sense to me now! We had temporary orders put into place that covered finances, business dealings (we own a business together) and living arrangements. There were a list of things he was supposed to stick to in regards to the business (I had proof he was diverting income). He disobeyed every single stipulation and seemed to enjoy the attention every time I called him on it or took him to court over it. I finally was exhausted from having to babysit him and go through the turmoil of confronting his behavior, so I just stopped one day. And he started harassing me to try to get me to take the bait to start confronting him again and I simply refused to play and stayed No Contact. Guess who’s now obeying the temporary orders? That’s right..the narc! Apparently, once I took all the attention away by not confronting the bad behavior, he had no reason to continue to behave badly and so he stopped!!

  • Micha,

    Sounds like HE is the damaged one….damaged in the head. And that is a generous assessment of him considering what he texted you. Just plain mean and nasty. Don’t buy his lies about you! Listen to CL and fight the lies with truth..plenty of us chumps find wonderful, non-abusive partners after ditching our nasty cheaters. And we come in all shapes and sizes. Plus, that assumes you want to find another person…you are whole and wonderful just as you are! God does not make through away people.


    • I’m with KJ, very well said DM as always. I have to say that no longer believing the lies is the best feeling EVER. I have questioned myself for the past 8 years, asking myself over and over if the insults spewed at me by Xhole had ANY truth to them?? While I may have MY issues (I think we all do to some extent) and I can reflect on them….. understanding how truly disordered and BROKEN he is has helped me FINALLY let go of all of that crap!!

      I LOVE it that he can’t get to me anymore 😀 MEH is absolutely fabulous!!!!

  • Micha, change your phone number, and be DONE with his craptastic text bombs.

    While you are at it, change everything: home phone, cell phone, email. I had to do it, because Big Chief Dumb Fuck would simply not take NO for an answer. First step towards Meh and peace of mind for me.

  • Oh my word , I still get these messages of how much he misses me and little gifts bought for me! This after I was dumped so callously by him, just packed and left while I was at work, no message no nothing! Now he starts again. But it does hurt and as soon as I start to feel a bit better he will send me a message or buy me a gift, it’s not easy but I know I am better off without him. He moved straight into his ex wife’s bed after cheating on me with her, for I don’t know how long! These idiots have no idea about life and how their actions impact on us, just as long as they are getting cake. I’m sure it won’t be too long before he finds someone else to give him what I clearly won’t.

    • “But it does hurt and as soon as I start to feel a bit better he will send me a message or buy me a gift, it’s not easy but I know I am better off without him.” Your X totally understands the impact his actions have–he knows he hurts you. He knows if he sends a message or buys you a gift, he is mindfucking you to get your attention back on him and to stay central in your life. So the answer is–cut off the avenues for messages. Don’t open the gifts–have someone else dispose of them. As long as you leave the channels open, he will use them.

  • Hate to be repetitious, because you will hear it many times today, but speaking as a guy, this (thankfully) X of yours is a nasty piece of work. So glad you are away from him, which is a very, very good place to be.

  • There is always the hurtful echo of “you did X, and made me say/do Y”. It’s so easy to be sucked back into the mind of the person you so esteemed, even when they don’t esteem you.

    But nobody makes anyone do anything. Since your divorce, you should have the freedom to settle into No Contact or Business Contact only. I was divorced last September (no kids together) and I finally had to put a stop to even Business Contact. He really thought he could just contact me any time to whine about his new rotten life like we were old buddies. NO.

    I believe that the only way to stop absorbing your ex’s abuse and disordered thinking is to not allow him access to you. Look at his actions and all his words. What kind of person says the things he says to you. A horrible person. You must step back and be a friend to yourself. If anyone you loved were being subjected to this kind of harassment, wouldn’t you kick some ass of their behalf?

    If you get some time and space away from this horrendous dolt, his insults will eventually morph from jawdroppingly effective stabs to laughable and desperate flailing of the mentally ill. You’ll examine every hurtful thing he said and reject 90% of it when logic returns to you.

    Comfort and understanding to you,

    • exhole’s oompa loompa hood rat home wrecker loves him and respects him so much

      (READ: CONTROLS HIM) that he cant even think without her approval. i know it will not last long.

      but for NOW i am lucky NOT to have to deal with this kind of shit. i dont get any texts, and stopped getting crazy from HER. i havent gotten any suicide attempts or threatening phone calls. he has completely forgotten about me and his boys. in the end, we will be better off.

      dont let them in your head.

  • Micha,

    After reading that drivel, I wouldn’t even refer to your ex as a “cheater” anymore: I’d call him what he IS, which is, as others before me have written, an A-B-U-S-E-R!

    He’s classic. Typical. Common. And BORING. He doesn’t love you. He loves to try and CONTROL you. And when his love bombing doesn’t work, he “cycles” to abusive lies, insults, put-downs and the like. He’s like a doctor cycling through antibiotics to see which one will “work” on you (thank you, Lundy Bancroft)

    If you haven’t already done so, pick up a copy of Why Does He Do That? by Bancroft. It’s a real eye opener. You’ll learn how abusers think.

    In the meantime, I’m rooting for no contact with a big dose of *yawn* thrown in.

    These guys (and gals) really aren’t all that original.

    • I just started reading Why Does He Do That? last night. So far it has been an eye opener of the things I brushed off as normal or have taken as “my fault”.

  • I sometimes wonder why these abusers talk at all — they show so much of their distorted thinking and twisted interpretations when they open their mouths. You can chalk up all the “pretty” and “sweet” words wanting to get back together with you as “I miss cake.” They like triangulating women and getting them to do the pick me dance. It’s cake, cake, cake for them. This desire for reconciliation also indicates all his plans with Schmoopie are not really working well for him. Isn’t it sad for Schmoopie that their “twu wuv” is not what they thought it would be?

    As for his comments, if all you needed was “a big one to ride” isn’t it unfortunate for you that he was not man enough to “settle you down”? In addition, why would you want to hear about his cavorting with the new OW du jour? Wouldn’t it be the same old selfish and unimaginative stuff he offered you? You know, even though they blameshift and tell you that YOU cause all their problems in the bedroom, that is just a lie they tell themselves to make themselves feel better. Women do not cause men to be impotent. It is usually a health and/or age problem, and if there are psychological issues, it is after all HIS head(s) that have the problem, not yours.

    Remember you are not a “man-hater” — you don’t hate all men, just him. The good news is that while you recover, you will start to feel less and less for him until you don’t care anything at all about him. You were not a woman scorned, you were a woman who had a low-life husband who was a cheater. You may scorn cheaters — there are many in the Chump Nation who do — don’t feel alone.

    The age and health comments are beneath contempt. I have watched the Narcs I know age, believe me, it is not pretty. They may look in the mirror and fool themselves that they have “still got it” — but if he is in the same age range as you are, and if you are taking care of yourself, chances are you are in much better shape than he is. There are some physical reasons that women generally outlive men. He has much more to worry about than you do.

    Move forward, live your life with your boundaries firmly in place. Follow YOUR dreams. Meh is just around the corner . . . you should get there soon, on a random Tuesday. Good Luck on your journey.

      • Well said Portia! Keep preaching it because the truth is like the sunshine we need to keep the “bacteria” from coming back! Lord these asshats are so unoriginal! If I bothered to keep a calendar then I would be able to pinpoint his next “cycle”!

    • “As for his comments, if all you needed was “a big one to ride” isn’t it unfortunate for you that he was not man enough to “settle you down”?”

      A big one to ride? Huh. I would have been soooo tempted to say to him, “Why, YES! Yes, you’re RIGHT! I DO need a “big one to ride”! It would be a nice change from riding your SMALL one for so long…”

      Yeah. I’m not ‘snark-challenged’ today or anything…

      • Gypsy57, I loved that line too! To bad he is so “thick” he couldn’t see what he was actually saying! Again, asshats!

  • Micha don’t believe anything he says, and certainly don’t allow him back into your life!!! If he can make you feel shitty enough to take him back, just imagine how he’ll treat you if you do go back. He has ZERO respect for you, and will treat you with contempt if you ever go back to him. He’ll become a more powerful narcissistic leach, slowly draining you of your lifeblood… your passion, confidence and self-respect. You deserve so much more than this!!! Stay strong!

  • Glad you are away from that evil twit. This is where he made it crystal clear that the best option for you is to trust that he sucks and go no contact on his sorry ass. Hang in there ….it does get a lot better. The chump nation has your back.

    • ^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

      if you were wondering if you should go back to him…..he just gave you all the reasons not too.

  • “If he were truly desirous of reconciliation and forgiveness he wouldn’t attack you.”

    ***Bottom line***

    Put this in your pocket and read it when you need clarity. Make it your wall paper. It is the absolute truth.

  • Micha,

    Stay away from this creep and keep him blocked. There is no end to the ways in which these cheaters can harm you. This has nothing to do with you and everything to do with his inability to be in healthy relationships.

    Recently my STBX got into a domestic dispute with his girlfriend. He is sporting a nasty injury. And of course he is the victim. I don’t really care except that my daughter witnessed it and THAT pisses me off. Of course STBX is dismissing it, rug sweeping, etc. etc. They do not change.

    I have a great attorney. And you bet he knows about this latest incident. Keep records of any degrading comments. You will be surprised at how useful they can be going forward. A good lawyer can stop this shit cold but it you can help out by keeping your side of the street tidy. And I know you will.

    As CL and others say here, no contact is the only way. I share a child with my ex cheater and it’s hellish at times. However, I know now that he is an abusive, crazy making man and I’m so fortunate that I got out of that marriage. I’m stronger and healthier than I have ever been. It takes time, but you can do this too.

  • I am going to put my hand up and be honest. Early in the madness of my separation from my ex husband of 37 years which he planned, I fired off some terrible emails to him which were full of hate and abuse. I am not proud of what I did or said but the hurt and humiliation was unbearable because he had planned my exit and sent our 28 year old son in to tell me I was leaving and what money he was prepared to give me. Like the fool I am, I just accepted everything and left. Everyone took his side and shut me out, so yes, I was very angry and hurt. I suppose that puts me squarely in the narcissist box back then. If so, I am guilty as charged but I no longer have contact because he has moved to Cambodia. I suppose he feels safe there away from me the crazy one. I must clarify, my ex is the only person who has ever made me crazy with anger so I can only assume that getting rid of me was necessary for him to have the life he now has.

    • ‘Like the fool I am, I just accepted everything and left. Everyone took his side and shut me out, so yes, I was very angry and hurt. I suppose that puts me squarely in the narcissist box back then’.

      NO MAREE! – neither this ^^^ – nor sending ‘terrible emails full of hate and abuse’ when you were being tortured by his discard, makes you a narcissist. Not even close honey, stop that thinking. You reacted completely appropriately, of course you were very angry and hurt, I’d be questioning your mental health had you not! Please give yourself a break, you don’t deserve to be so hard on yourself. x

      • You are right, Jayne. Maree did nothing wrong. I called the cheater every single cuss word I knew, multiple times, and some I made up. I don’t feel bad about it, it’s a normal reaction to the shit he DID , I.e. lie, cheat, steal family resources of time, money, etc. From me and our daughter. He totally deserved it and so did yours.

        • I agree. Crazy begets crazy and these Narcs are anything but fair in a divorce. Hell, I think if I had had a life insurance policy I would have ended up in the woods! Lol

        • It’s all the damned mindfuckery that will send you over the edge! There’s something disorienting about the way these people play you. He tried to tell me I was so angry and paranoid that I was becoming psychotic. I actually felt fairly crazy because he made SURE of that. Remember, he’s one of those sensitive souls that can’t handle swear words unless they’re tattooed on your body – maybe then is ok.

          I thought what I was feeling must be like what a wounded, cornered animal feels? Desperately wounded and he kept cornering me just to keep me off balance. To do more damage, making sure he kept the proverbial boot on my neck. I finally fought back and I don’t feel badly that swearing a blue streak helped me do that. I guess he thought he could stop me from looking for the sense in his abracadabra craptastica show. Now you see it? Oh no you don’t!

          When things started to unravel (you know, all that stuff that’s nothing), or even after that when I’d get too close to something, his behavior just made me more certain that what I already HAD couldn’t even be the half of it. I didn’t even have to know what “it” was, like someone else mentioned. If I got close by accident, his cranking up the abusiveness let me know to keep hunting round there……yeah, it’s that volcanic pushback they give when they’re trying to manage their image and secrets that will tip you off, so be aware! It took me a bit of time, but I started to see his “tells.”

          He was doing nothing but making me insane regardless. I had to disconnect emotionally and decided I mostly don’t care what ELSE, because what I already know and the mindfuckery that already occurred is plenty.

          • I had no idea that there were words to bring clarity to what I went through (am going through), but you nailed it CUC! Just, wow. Yes, I was kept off balance, cornered, devolving into his chaotic mess of a world. There aren’t enough words to express the confusion pain shame shock of it all, so meh. F that guy, I’m walking away.

    • Maree–HUGE difference between flailing emotionally and verbally after you’ve just been assaulted, vs. cheaters who are abusive from the get-go. Defense (chump) vs. Offense (cheater). If it helps, I never speak poorly to anyone, but after finding out some awful & cruel details of my X’s main affair, I told him I wished he would die. Terrible, yes, but I was trying to recover from an emotional bayonet wound that HE had inflicted.

      • Glad you posted this for Maree, and others who regret responding with anger or rage or deep hurt. That’s not the same thing as deliberate cruelty.

    • My therapist says “The appropriate response to injustice is rage.” — The difference between your rage, Maree, and the cheater’s, is that you were served a heaping platter of injustice and he was not.

      • Maree. You have been dealt one of the cruelest blows by one of the worst narcissist sociopathic freaks. No you are not one of them. We know that. You are one of our own, an empathetic trusting and caring chump. Never doubt yourself again. ((Hugs)))

  • Ah, yes. “Man hater”. Add to that, “You so damned self-righteous not even Jesus Christ could make you happy.”

    There are no shades of gray with these creatures, are there? Someone must either be the model of perfection or the epitome of evil. No one can simply be human. Their world doesn’t recognize nuance.

    For the record, I love men. But words have concrete meanings, and somehow I don’t think “online masturbitionist” has been included in Webster’s definition of ‘man’.

  • OMG Micha – what a complete arse! The temptation to break no contact and tell him to fuck off and die must be really strong! It is for me – and I don’t even know him!! LOL :-D. You obviously know NC is the best way to go. But, hell, I’ll bet you’ll have gone through all the one-sided retorts in your head. Take some comfort in knowing your NC will be torturing the idiot – (hurrah)! Congratulations on getting away from that stunted human being.

    • I agree, Juliet. My ex said some of the same things to me during our final big fight, the one when he finally realized I wasn’t going to give him chance number umpteen.

      It’s eerie.

  • Maree,

    Acting “crazy” in the face of betrayal is understandable. You are human. It would be abnormal not to have a strong reaction to this. Abuse can make the sanest of people act in unpredictable ways. It’s the card these tools play all the time, “Oh look! See! She’s/He’s crazy!” Don’t fall for it.

    I bet you are a lot saner now that your cheater is gone.

    My cheater is now making his next “victim” insane. And so it goes…..

  • Micha I am so sorry this jerk was ever in your life. You are already so mighty for leaving him and divorcing him. You blocked his texts too so you got this honey!

    CL was right in that the UBT wasn’t really needed to see the underlying message in his texts. He’s an abuser and not so subtle at that.

    The good news is that he is out of your life now. Just process your grief and keep your distance. He seems like he would be scary in person. I don’t know if you have children together but go as little or no contact as humanly possible.

    Big Jedi hugs -chump nation has your back!

  • CL, my husband said “I’m sorry i hurt you” but when i asked if he’s sorry for his actions he’ll spin it into something else. Is that remorse ?

    • No. “I don’t regret robbing that bank. But I’m sorry you got pistol-whipped.” “I’m sorry I hurt you, but I don’t regret molesting you.” He acted in ways to hurt you. He has to regret his actions. And STOP DOING THEM.

      • ^^^^^THIS^^^^^

        My therapist says it’s like them punching you in the stomach and rubbing your head while they do it.

    • CL is on target.

      “I’m sorry I hurt you” is acceptable only after someone’s accidentally stepped on your foot, smacked your head, or similar accident. If they’re truly remorseful, they’ll follow “I’m sorry I hurt you” with an acknowledgment that they acted out of their own selfishness. They will call a therapist on their own, and generally crawl over broken glass to try to rebuild what they shattered. And acknowledge that you do not owe them forgiveness.

      Anything else is just gaslighting and mindfuckery.

      • And “I’m sorry I hurt you” is only true if they haven’t done it over and over.

  • I agree that some people are too damaged to be forgiven, but I also agree that some people ARE too damaged to forgive.

    If the cheating person has a personality disorder or any other psych issue, yes, yes, yes, move on.

    However some people f up once and learn their lesson. Those are the ones that deserve forgiveness, but only if the betrayed is up for it. It’s not a given.

    Love is about being able to forgive someone who fs up once. Love is not about being a doormat, but a loving person could forgive one transgression

    With that said, why is this lady still feeling that his request is bringing back all the hurt? Obviously she is not over him? Why is that?

    That’s another thing to consider, does she want him back? If so why? These are questions she needs to ask herself.

    Does she want him back because she is too damaged to move on? Does she want him back because she realizes he was a good person who f’d up once.

    As for worrying that you might spend another ten years or so with someone who might cheat…..well, why bother. Is it any better that you spend another ten years with someone who wakes up one day and simply wants a divorce because he says he’s changed.

    Life is a risk. Make every day a good day, and even if in the end the guy or gal wants a divorce in ten years, so what. It was still ten good years of living.

    Chump me once shame on you. Chump me twice shame on me. Thank you dumb ass affair partner for showing my wife how lucky she is to have someone like me.

    • Dear Chumped only 1 time,

      There’s a lot of your post here that disturbs me. There is a tone of ‘victim blaming’ that is redolent of the occasional troll attacks we get here from time to time. I don’t see the leap of perception that tells me Micha must want her ex back if she is still open to emotional pain inflicted by her ex. It just doesn’t follow on for me. What I believe is that these abusers learn how to press our buttons during their time with us and, as a conscious decision to abuse, use our vulnerabilities against us. We all have vulnerabilities Chumped only 1 time – even you. I do recall the playground chant of ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me’ but the truth is most of us (obviously, by what you say here, not you) are hurt when people verbally abuse us.

      As for your argument that spending ten years or so with someone who might cheat is no worse than spending ten years or so with someone who wakes up one day and simply wants a divorce because they say they’ve changed. I’m not sure you understand how the ten years of deceit, betrayal, backstabbing, gaslighting and mindfucking that comes with a cheater, is so, so, so much worse than being granted the respect of having ‘the difficult conversation’ that at least tells you they feel differently. People do fall in and out of love, that is sad but true, but I for one would have preferred ‘The Great I Am’ to have not pretended he adored me at the very same time he was fucking his AP, it was his cowardly avoidance of the difficult, respectful, adult conversation with me that has me unable to forgive. Does that make me a damaged person? I guess so, but you know what, our brains are plastic and affected by our life experiences. I fully expect to heal in time, but scarred I will be. I can’t unlearn the shit I’ve been through, and the nearest to forgiveness I’ll ever give him is Meh.

      • IMHO, I think we all move on but nothing makes me angrier than all the crap I went through just to get on the other side of divorce. And my ex is still bullying me in re to the QDRO. Which hello! Should not be done five years after the MSA has been signed. I do not have to forgive crap toxic people. I am however working on forgiving myself for not seeing WHO and WHAT he was(or is). A disordered fucking Narc that I willingly wasted twenty eight years on only to have my entire life’s work blow up in my face. By someone I trusted.

      • Exactly , Jayne. It is the hurt that comes from theft of our agency through their lies and manipulation that so often outweighs their rejection and discard. At least it was for me. Which I guess supports the idea that they’re driven more by their quest for power than by the hunt for strange vagina.

        I started to say ‘fresh vagina’, but it seems most AP’s broke their quality seal long before our cheaters found them.

      • Actually, Jayne, I see what Chumped Only 1 Time is saying, although it’s phrased kind of awkwardly. Since Micha didn’t block her abusive ex completely, CO1T is interpreting that as that she still, on some level, wants the contact. I don’t believe that’s true in her case, but I have seen it happen. I have a housemate who’s a complete drama llama. Has a “crazy” ex-gf (pretty sure he contributed quite a bit to her alleged “craziness”) who he keeps in touch with with phone calls and texts (it’s mutual; she contacts him just as frequently). They spent a year and a half in court over various allegations which were never really proven or disproven. Yes, there was a protection order – neither has observed it. I mentioned – quite recently – that if he *really* wanted the issue to go away, he could block her emails. Phone calls. Texts. Hook his cell phone up to Google Voice and block ALL contact with a couple clicks (that’s why I put up with the Evil Empire, LOL) (and no matter who your provider or number is, as long as you keep it hooked up, they stay blocked). He remains blithely uninterested. He *likes* the attention. It reinforces his centrality in the drama. I’m not going to interpret CO1T’s feedback as victim blaming so much as questioning intent. I think it caught Micha by surprise the extent the ex would go to in order to re-establish and reassert contact and control though. For anyone else who ever reads this, never, ever underestimate that extent. They know you fell for it once and think they can get you to fall for it again. They live to exploit that weakness and take advantage of it again if they can.

        • Sunny – I still don’t think that Micha’s hurt by her ex’s abuse automatically points to her still wanting him back. I don’t think you are saying that either. Respectfully, I don’t even believe her not installing Google Voice and going Ninja on cutting off all avenues for contact, is proof that she wants him back, and in all honesty, I think it takes too much of an assumptive leap to come to that conclusion. It could well be that she thought the actual divorce would have been message enough. She may not be as computer savvy as you – certainly it’s the first I’ve heard of Google Voice. She doesn’t say whether they have children so going full NC is not an option for her. I understand what you say about your friend and his ongoing drama with his ex, but that doesn’t mean Micha is cut from the same cloth, nor does it mean we can assume she is and, finally, both Chumponly1time and respectfully, even yourself are making assumptions that ARE victim blaming, IMHO.

          • I think some people have trouble seeing they have the right to go No Contact. I’m not sure why this is, but it may be a chumpy trait or a something like codependence or just having trouble cutting the cord altogether. So many relationships we read about here were based on the cheater maintaining control about everything or nearly everything (cheater spends lots of money while chump and kids pinch pennies; cheater goes on vacations while the chump stays home, etc.) And chumps grow used to “answering to” the cheater. I think these patterns are hard to break. I know that the minute I spend time with my XH (the drinker, not a cheater), I am right back into trying to please him. I certainly don’t want to go back to that life, but I also miss the side of him that is smart and funny and cared enough to plant trees. I want him to be happy, although I know that isn’t possible for him. And contact brings all of that back. He isn’t a danger to me, so long as I know I will cycle through those feelings when I see or talk to him. That isn’t such a problem for me with XH but it would be a terrible problem with an abusive, character-disordered cheater, because I would not risk falling back into those old patterns of relationship.

      • Dear Chumped Only 1 Time,
        It’s Micha here and my instincts about your comments are telling me that you just might be trolling. In fact, reading your post made me feel like Hannibal Lecter just ghosted me. Especially the part where you can disconnect from someone without a sense of loss. Emotionless responses to ANYTHING are just too creepy.

    • Phh. Chumped only 1 time–I would add “that I know about” to your moniker.

      And “f-ed up only one time”? Depends on the act. For example, if I have a roommate who eats my last frozen pizza and apologizes, fine, I accept the mistake. But if that roommate enters my room with a hunting knife and tries to slit my throat in the middle of the night, no way in hell I forgive that person.

      Cheaters bring a hunting knife to the marriage, and use it.

      • Good point, Tempest.

        “f-ed up only one time” would suggest that the spouse fucked someone not his/her spouse once, realized that this was a huge and terrible thing, and confessed it right away.

        Anything else is not a one-time fuck-up. It is a litany of deceit. I think a lot of us initially want to excuse an affair as a single act. What we realize–and the real virtue of Chump Nation–is that an affair is really a series of violations.

        We deserve better than that!

      • Good points. I was “chumped only one time” (that I know of for sure) but the ex didn’t just sleep with the OW one time. That went on for a couple of months. If they are lying and screwing someone else multiple times, is that really being chumped only once?

        Plus which, I don’t think it matters where they fall on the cheater spectrum when it comes to ‘forgiving them and reconciling”, I think the only thing that matters is if they are truly sorry (which clearly that dude wasn’t) and if they do all the heavy lifting with no expectations of anything in return.

        I don’t think it’s at all likely for a serial cheater to do any of the above but I don’t give the ‘one timers’ a lot of credit either. It’s about character and the majority of them were last in line when that quality was being handed out.

    • “Fucked up once”, huh? That would be the time where fuckwit husband spoke with the whore the first time. Any other act, thought or feeling beyond that was deception and is an instant fucking dealbreaker.
      Piss off with your holier-than-thou ‘She has feelings though negative so shes not over him’ shit. I wasn’t aware that feelings could be turned on and off like a tap, but I guess from idiots like you, that’s feelings have less depth than a kiddy pool, thats the status quo.

  • Micha, so sorry that you had to hear such abusive comments from him. I’m glad you finally blocked him – please keep it that way so you don’t have to deal with this again.

    My STBX also said that he knew I would never be able to forgive him. After reading this statement from CL:

    The whole “you’re not capable of forgiveness” is pure cheaterspeak. Roughly translated it means “you’re not capable of rug-sweeping.”

    I realized he is right. I won’t ever be able to forgive him in the way he wants me to forgive him which is rug-sweeping, ignoring what he’s done and will continue to do, letting him abuse me AND still be with me too. I will never live like that again.

    • i actually did forgive my exhole like that (not my best or most proud moment). i completely forgave, ignored what he did, swept it all under the rug, never bought it up again, never threw it in his face and apparently forgot it so well that i was completely taken by surprise when he did it again. i mean i honestly could not believe that he had a girlfriend!!!

      i am only saying this because even if you forgave him in the way he wanted you too….it still doesnt matter.

      • mrsvain, I wanted to reply to your earlier post where you said “i also did not think that our marriage issues were so bad. i mean i knew we had problems but for me they were little problems that every married couple went thru” but for some reason on my computer there’s no Reply button at the end of it. What you wrote in that entire post was exactly how I felt about my situation too. During that time, the thought never crossed my mind that he might be cheating on me. I seriously thought that he was a person with values. Now I know better, thanks to CL and CN.

        and from a forgiveness perspective, I know I was willing to work toward forgiveness with him had he been able to set up and put true effort in to rebuilding our relationship. Unfortunately, it became evident that he did not have what was needed to do that and all he wanted was his version of forgiveness. He even said to me 8 months after DDay that he ‘just wanted to come home, for all of this to go away, and for us to be together again like things were before’. My response was ‘that’s not going to happen’. Now I’m going to add that as another check mark on my best decisions made list.

  • Forgiving made me feel better. It wasn’t about her.

    I felt good about being able to forgive my wife. Her affair was about feeling old and trying to recapture her youth. Her method to achieve that was immature and selfish and thoughtless. Still it was out of character for her.

    Some cheaters should never be given a second chance. That doesn’t mean you are not capable of forgiveness it means you rightly don’t want to forgive. Even if it’s only one F up, it’s still up to the betrayed to call the forgiveness shot. Not forgiving doesn’t make you a bad person, but forgiving doesn’t make you a bad person or a chump, either.

    Personally, I don’t feel chumped. I feel the affair woke my wife up and now she appreciates me more than ever. LOL even more than I deserve maybe. I am a nice guy, but like everyone I have faults.

    Anyway, I am glad my wife does not have a personality disorder and she is not normally abusive. I am also very glad I chose to give her a second chance. Really, too, I actually called her affair partner and thanked him for showing my wife what asses some people are. The guy was a serial cheater. My wife was his tenth affair. In the end that fact made her feel very UNSPECIAL.

    Anyway carry on guys, this blog is funny, if nothing else.

    • Well, Chumped 1 Time,

      I am glad that you feel the need to come on here and make excuses for your wife’s behavior.

      Tell me, did she make these excuses up, or did you do that for her?

      My soul cringed inside when I read this – stand up for yourself and be a man!

      Have some self-respect, have some pride, have some intelligence.

      Realize that an affair is a whole series of decisions – any one of which your wife could have stopped and said: “Hmm, maybe breaking the vows I made before friends, family and God is not the right thing to do. Maybe I should stop having sex with other people and work on things with my husband,” and then turned around and come to you – her husband – and tried to work on things.

      You actually called her affair partner and thanked him? I am really, really trying not to be too harsh here, but this is one of the most pathetic things I have ever read. Maybe other posters here wanted to thank their ex’s affair partners for helping getting the parasite out of our lives, but not as some kind of therapy.

      Of course your wife had an affair on you – you have no respect for yourself, and therefore why should she?


      • The first time my x cheated, he only cheated one time as well. That was true until the second time.

        We are talking about a character defect that allows somebody to committ an act they know is wrong, but hope to get away with. It’s not a personality disorder for all of them, for some it’s just immaturity and lack of character.

        Every cheater has the opportunity to tell their partner they are attracted elsewhere before they do it. They have a chance to let their partner know what is going on before they act.

        • “That was true until the second time.”

          I would file this under when I asked my wife if she loved me, and about our wedding only six months prior.

          Her response: “I meant it at the time.”

        • Generally speaking when you give a cheater a second chance, it’s the same exact thing as giving a hunter another bullet because they missed you the first time.

          You forgive it once, the assumption is that you’ll forgive again. Once a cheater always a cheater might be a cliche, but cliches are cliches for a reason!

      • Chumped only 1 time is a Troll–they’re just getting more subtle.

        Back under the bridge, now.

    • Oh – you are a troll. Why do you come here – have you not got better things to do with your life? FYI – I really don’t go in search of reconciliation sites trying to preach ‘Lose a cheater, gain a life’ – you guys are very welcome to deal with your shit in any way you wish – if that involves forgiveness (or rug-sweeping, as we would see it) and reconciliation (or subscribing to the ‘cycle of abuse’) – go for it! But if you are SO sure of your choices, why on earth do you get your freaky jollies coming on to this site? Surely you should be skipping off into the sunset with your newly ‘infidelity-gifted’ superior marriage, No? Honestly, I really do question your mental health – what is it you think you are doing here, what kicks are you getting – and, really, are you happy in your life that spending chunks of it as a troll is actually acceptable to you? Takes all sorts I suppose.

      • Ah yes, he is here to tell us we are bitter bunnies who can’t forgive.That he is special! That his cheater is better than your cheater! Like the very special cheater-abuser in today’s post, they want to tell us we don’t measure up. Well, “Chumped only 1 time,” that’s “Chumped only 1 time so far.” And you might want to think about the character of a woman who cheats because she needs to feel young–because last time I looked, we all get older every day.

        • ‘Well, “Chumped only 1 time,” that’s “Chumped only 1 time so far.” And you might want to think about the character of a woman who cheats because she needs to feel young–because last time I looked, we all get older every day’.

          Oh very well said LAJ! 😀

      • Jayne, you are right. “Chump 1 time” is a troll. I’m mean seriously:

        quote:………Really, too, I actually called her affair partner and thanked him for showing my wife what asses some people are. The guy was a serial cheater. ………………

        That statement could not be serious.

        Don’t feed the trolls! 🙂

    • FUNNY?! being chumped is not funny! Chump lady and the mighty nation are great. Has been a god send to me. While there are funny comments and funny stories they are lifesavers and smile staters. When you were chumped was it funny or did it burn a hole clean through to your soul? Me thinks I smell a troll. Asshole.

    • Chumped only 1 time, you are either a troll, or you are desperately seeking validation for your decision to reconcile with your wife. You’ve made the decision to check out Chump Lady where the motto is “leave a cheater, gain a life,” and obviously reading the posts. If you were truly at peace with your decision to forgive your cheating wife you wouldn’t have the need to keep searching for answers. I would suggest some serious introspection, or that you speak with a counselor to analyze the conflict between what you’re professing, and your actual behavior.

      You say your wife has changed, and realizes her error, but you should know that cheaters are fundamentally different than chumps. Cheaters, in order to cheat, must repeatedly plan their activities, and continually lie about it. Try to recall all the times your wife would have had to lie to you in order to go fuck another man. Let’s say she only fucked him once (according to my cheater he only fucked each AP once, and I’ve learned from Chump Nation this is a fairly common assertion). There had to be some build up. She had to have been lying by omission about her attraction to him. Then there had to be some planning involved for the actual event to take place. She probably told him horrible things about you, in order to make having sex with him seem ok. After they had sex she would have to cover up and lie to you some more. Was she convincing? If she was, then that’s cause for more concern, because it proves she’s a very cunning liar. Anyway…. you get the point. Cheating, even once, isn’t a one-time offense; it was a series of offenses that led to, and supported the act of sex. You’ve decided to take her back and forgive her, but at least recognize the depth of her deception, and know that deceiving you was probably part of the thrill.

      • Oh, good point, ItsAJourney. Chumped Only 1 Time is probably thinking the sex act itself is the whole cheating ball of wax. You’ve done a great job of explaining why one sex act involves many, many lies and deceptions and abuses.

    • So, are you in the reconciliation business? Are you trying to make sure chumps continue to buy books? Are you one of those that writes those books? I am cynical. I figure we should always follow the money. There is no other reason for you to be on this site.

      • Time for Chumped Only 1 Time –so far (alternately, “I Only Chumped Her One Time”) to go back for another jumbo sized bag of Cheetos. Don’t forget to wipe off the keyboard before you leave.



      i am suspicious of anyone who says the found the unicorn who comes on this site talking how wonderful their unicorn life is and giving the impression that the rest of us just werent fair enough to our cheaters.

      if you are so happy then go find another site.

    • Chumped only 1 time, hate to break it to ya, you are not a nice guy – good luck with your Unicorn.

    • Seems the ‘I found a unicorn’ guy is finding his relationship isn’t all sunshine and roses, huh? Why else is he here?
      Either that, or hes the body double of Perel, which is just gross.

  • Micha, I’m so sorry you’re being tormented by your narc ex and his propensity to show you how much he lacks emotional maturity. It sounds like his kibble pipeline is empty, and he will do ANYTHING to replenish it.

    That includes the text equivalent of a little boy throwing himself on the supermarket floor, kicking and screaming because mommy won’t buy him his favorite breakfast cereal (you know, the one with the FREE TOY).

    For the likes of him, even negative attention is worth something. If you can hang in there, doing NC, until he starts hunting for kibble elsewhere, that’s wonderful. However, if you believe he is or may become dangerous, or if image management is paramount to him, I agree with CL, and would consider filing a Protection from Abuse Order. For really disordered people it’s a real Killjoy – because those things have a habit of showing up for anyone who’s considering dating him in the future, and who is savvy enough to run a security check on him. That might shut him up fast! First and foremost, please access your risk, and keep yourself safe.

    As for his taking a cheap shot regarding your health problems, it sounds like that may be a sensitive issue with you, and he’s using it to yank your chain. Whatever they may be, I can empathize as I’m disabled and have mobility issues. You may already know this, but there are wonderful people with emotional depth out there (like you) who, once they see your wonderful heart and soul (Chumps are such compassionate people), your health will not be such a factor that they will exclude you from their lives. (((Hugs)))

    • Hey, it’s Micha here. Thank you for this post. I’m not out of the woods yet but I know I’m closer everyday. I still have business contact with him but will be out of that tangled mess in a few months. Thanks to all in this fabulous Chump Nation! I didn’t know I needed you until I reached out.

      • If you are doing business, you can tell him to have his lawyer conduct the business if he can’t behave himself. Boundaries.

  • If she works at Notre Dame, hopefully she will tell him it’s “incapable” instead of”not capable”.

    Oh wait. He isn’t probably showing his crappy side to her yet, so she doesn’t have the opportunity to proofread his poor syntax and grammar.

    I’m also not sure how he could be your “man” again. A man wouldn’t use vulgar sexual innuendos to intimidate someone. An a-hole would.

  • They are all the same, really. Once you take your toys and leave, they want you back. Why? Because you are a possession, an asset. In their warped minds, they own you and you have no right to deny them their ownership of you. Self determination means a loss of control, so they cycle through charm, rage and self-pity, ramping up their efforts until they get a response. Do yourself a favor and don’t give him one.

  • Maybe I’m too thin-skinned, but that stuff was just emotionally abusive. Seriously disgusting. He’s just as sick as someone who’s physically abusive, IMHO. I understand getting angry, but those aren’t expressions of anger. They are attempts to hurt you and demean you as much as he can in his twisted mind. I’m sorry you ever had to read those things!

    • Not thin-skinned. I, too, felt wounded by his attacks. And this from someone who supposedly loves her? Gosh, what would it sound like if he DIDN’T love her?

      This is all just more evidence why this guy is bad news. The first thought I had was “Tantrum,” followed by “And how OLD is this guy? Six or seven by the sound of it!” So incredibly juvenile!

  • When my ex said ‘you’re not capable of forgiveness. You’ll never get over this so why would I bother trying’ I knew it was really his cue for me to start assuring him that I WOULD get over it, I COULD get over it. I assured him once and he still insisted I just didn’t have it in me so I said ‘you’re right’. That shocked him almost as much as the time he was trying to provoke me into a fight and I simply said, ‘Ex, I don’t love you anymore. You’re my past.’ Kept him shut down for days with that one. 🙂

    • Nord

      Mine said the same thing.

      She only wanted to do therapy and counseling if she knew AHEAD of time that I could forgive her.

      When I told her that we were not even there yet – this was in the first day I found out – and told her how disingenous she was by trying to get me to committ to a future she had destroyed, she really started fleeing the relationship.

      • Yeah, they hate work or anything involved with things they can’t do–like love, commitment, and change.

      • Nothing beats that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you’re blamed for the last affair because you kept taking them back.

        • Nord – ‘‘Ex, I don’t love you anymore. You’re my past.’ Kept him shut down for days with that one.’

          Unfortunately, 8 mos after our divorce we still own a home together (trying to sell) and work out possessions. So, been in business contact. I don’t even want that much contact with him as he made me physically sick when he came over last time to get stuff and didn’t take it all..arrg. But, I’ll get through it.

          But, I’m SO with Maree totally at this point – once again. I am sending him mean little digs any chance I can get about getting his shit out of here asap so I can sell the house. I hate myself (sometimes) afterward but he was just being so damn nice, I felt myself getting pulled back into him and seriously thought I loved him (again)!! When will I learn?
          He actually wanted to be friends with me! When I figured that out, I shut him down entirely by telling him:

          “I never want to see you again. You are and will always be a monster to me”.

          I think that took him off guard as I KNOW he wanted to be friends so he didn’t think what he did was so bad. Pathetic.

          Anyway, that DID make me feel good that he knows how I still feel about him. And, as long as we’re sorting out possessions, I am quite sure my little nasty grams (not too nasty though) will keep on coming to him. Maybe he’ll block me. But, I SO want this over!!!

          • I wouldn’t bother with the nastygrams. Those show him you’re still invested, I think. When I told my ex I didn’t love him it was in response to him saying I needed to ‘get over it’ and that I was ‘like a teenager mooning about’. He really liked the idea that I was pining away for him so I set him straight and that was that.

            While he still tries to get to me I ignore everything and have done even before we finished the divorce or splitting up of our possessions. Just go silent. That will say an enormous amount.

          • Shechump, for me it got much easier after my ex FINALLY had all his stuff out of my place and all financial ties were severed. Until then, I found it really hard to have any sort of distance. It got better after I had the space and time to have emotional distance from him. Hang in there! It just takes time…

    • OMG – mine said this too. “I know how you are…you’ll never forgive me for this. Do you really want to live like this?” Meanwhile, this was while he was ALSO telling me he didn’t want to leave, and loved me, and wanted to work on the marriage. Talk about a mindfuck. I am convinced he wanted to leave, he was just too much of a coward to do it. He kept prodding me for my decision…All I wanted to ask him was, what’s the big hurry, do you have a hot date or something? Of course, he probably did/does. He said he wanted to stay, but kept telling me I’ll never stop asking questions, won’t ever get over it, and won’t be able to forgive him. Uh – dude, all that is true, but if you Wanted To Stay – why wouldn’t you just STFU and show real remorse.

      Then the DAY I told him I couldn’t stay, and wanted a divorce…from that day forward he never again told me he loved me, used his pet name for me, he just completely switched everything off, and I felt like I was living with something even less than a roommate – It was like living with a man I just met off the street.

      After moving out, he went NC with me. It’s been the most bizarre experience.

    • Nord–I’m with you. When I didn’t “forgive” him and stop being angry after 1 MC session, he started talking about how I would never get over his infidelity and he had started to like living on his own.

      Gave him his wish–filed 9 a.m. the next business day. But it’s merely their strategy to “guilt” us into forgiving them–X wailed and cried about how he didn’t want the divorce after I filed.

      • X was also surprised I filed. His parting words at the court ordered divorce hearing were a DESPERATE, “I think about YOU ALL the time”. He never looked quite so pathetic! Yeah, bebe you keep on thinking about me every day you wake up next to a fucking UGLY crass classless gambling drunk druggy bar whore who beat up her previous boy toy.

        The best revenge IS knowing I live better! It’s never too late to gain a life !!!

  • My first x would be verbally absusive with me either over the phone or on voicemail. It didn’t bother me because it was so immature. I just didn’t respond, didn’t fight back, etc. Then when he got no response he would leave apologies in my voicemail. What was really funny, was when I hadn’t even heard the first (abusive) voicemail, but it was already followed with an apology before I even got to it. (I am bad about checking messages, can anyone wonder why?)

    Now he is remarried and refuses to communicate with me, he will only go through our son or his wife. This makes me happy. 🙂

  • “Hope you find a big one to ride, that’s all you really need to settle you down a little.”

    I may or may not be reading too much into this one remark, but to me it’s a kind of red-flag that says….

    “I secretly believe all of my problems with women are due to the fact that I am not hung like Ron Jeremy. If I had a ginormous penis, there is no end to the possibilities: you’d probably tell all your girlfriends about it, and whenever they could get me alone, they would say things ‘Can I just touch it?’ Yeah, life would be perfect if my penis was fourteen inches long and about 2 inches in diameter. Boy, can you imagine how many women, even young ones, would like up to get a crack at that thing?”.

  • First, these messages are horribly abusive. They represent the whole cheater whipsaw repertoire between “I love you in some way” and “You are worthless.” The whole bag of mixed messages that are like intermittent reinforcement–what narcissists and sociopaths and torturers do to keep victim hoping that there is still hope that there will be food when the bell rings or the cage door will open–or in the case of cheaters, since one message is kinda sorta about “love,” that this manipulative jackass still “loves” you.

    My first therapist told me that intermittent reinforcement is one of the most powerful tools of child abusers–teaching kids to hope that there will be food, clothes, and some kind of love of comfort because every once is a while, they toss you just enough to keep you alive.

    And–NO CONTACT! Shut off those lines of communications. Yes, I know if you have kids, you have to be able to communicate. But once custody dates and times are established, you can send a spreadsheet or once a month email for events, doctor visits, etc. And tell the abusive jackass that if messages of that sort continue, you will not reply, that you have set up a dedicated email and if he abuses it, he is left to snail mail. Keep a file of the abusive stuff and if it continues, call the lawyer. Block his texts, his FB page and all other lines of communication. Until you do, you are still tethered to that diseased mind and his manipulation.

    • Intermittent reinforcement is indeed the most “reinforcing”…see: slot machines. Keep pulling that lever and maybe once every 3 hours, you’ll get a dollar out of the damn thing. I’ve done some reading about “Trauma Bonding,” and what you say is very true…you become so attached to the abuser because you’re waiting for that cookie. It’s so awful, and destroys the soul.

      • Agree. People who haven’t been exposed to that kind of abuse don’t get how easily the psyche can be damaged. People think it’s only the weak minded who get mind-fucked. This small group knows that 99% of those people are wrong.

  • Micha,
    Please don’t take all these spiteful nasty comments to heart.
    Your ex sounds like some spoilt brat who can’t have what he wants, so he is lashing out at the person who is thwarting him.
    If he was five years old he would maybe shout, scream, hold his breath, tell you he hated you, lie down in the supermarket kicking the floor and refuse to get up.
    But he’s not, he’s an adult and has learned how to hurt people with words when he doesn’t get what he wants.
    Don’t fall for it.
    He’s trying to push your buttons, exploit your weaknesses and make you feel bad.
    Don’t play his nasty game.
    You’re better than this, you deserve better than this and you need to keep moving away from this.
    Good luck and keep moving away from this user/abuser. x

  • Some of my favorite quotes:

    “She wouldn’t know courage if it bit her”.

    “You’re too stupid and arrogant…” (part of a comment about me attempting to fix our old lawnmower)

    “Inept and incapable of taking criticism in any form”.

    And my favorite pet name?

    “Road-Apple Princess”. 🙂

    • “Road-Apple Princess”???

      Huh? Is that supposed to be one of those apples you sometimes see that are crushed by passing cars’ tires? Or just lying on the shoulder of the road?

      Yet another real charmer here. Ugh.

  • I recommend you save a few of these gems. They are the reminders you need some days to confirm that your decision to leave was smart, healthy, and long-overdue. No one deserves this kind of verbal harassment. He doesn’t love you. He wants to control you or get something from you, and he is truly angry that you’ve refused him. He’s running through his list of tactics. First, he tried flattery, and then he moved on to verbal abuse and emotional threats. If he thought he could get away with it, he’d move next to physical abuse (and if you suspect him of trying this, take precautions).

    In leaving the relationship, you have done exactly what you need to do to protect yourself. As time passes, you’ll feel more confident about your decision and more joy in living without the shadow of abuse hanging over you.

    I wish you the best of fortune, the best of futures, and the best of health.

    • ^^^^^THIS^^^^^. N”In leaving this relationship, you have done exactly what you need to do to protect yourself. As time passes, you will feel more confident a out your decision and more joy in living without the shadow of abuse hanging over you.” Brilliant, Eilonway.

    • Great advice, Eilonwy!

      We’re chumps, so we’re capable of backsliding and forgetting the bad / remembering the good. Having a few reminders of the hurtful sh** that my ex said about me was a good reminder on days that I felt weaker.

  • chumped 1 time: I think you have a healthy ego. I to was not threatened by my wife’s affair partner. We are also doing well. I called him up thanked him and laughed in his face. Of course, I told his wife, too. I am sure you did the same. I got him in a boatload of trouble. My wife treats me better, too. HIs wife left him. He was also a serial cheater. We became friends for a time, afterward. But I had to break that off because she was starting to become attracted to me, and I realized that she was having an emotional affair with me.

    Anyway, way cool, way cooler chumped one time. You sound like a strong willed guy with a healthy ego.

  • I haven’t even read CL’s reply yet, or replies from other chumps. I just read what your ex wrote to you and had to say that is TEXTBOOK response from a disordered person/narcissist. First he tries to sweet talk you back into supplying him with kibble. Then, when you don’t play his game, the REAL face comes out — pure rage and hatred. THAT is the real him. That’s how he really feels. The sweet talk was just glitter on the turd.

    When you see that scenario: first sweetness and love, then pure rage when the person doesn’t get their way, you know you are dealing with a disordered person and you had better run.

    • May I enter an official request here for one of Tracy’s awesome illustrations? I want a glitter turd! It would make an especially awesome mug for work if it could be made to actually sparkle. Or is that narkle?

      Also, GIO you totally nailed it. X#2 was this in a nutshell. They’re really good actors; the “sweetness and love” part seems so real and convincing…

      • Sunny, I’ve described this here before, but I actually MADE a glittery turd at one point to remind me of my ex. I bought brown Fimo clay and a bottle of gold glitter glue. Molded the clay into a turd shape, baked it in the oven to harden it, then covered it with the glitter glue. It looked exactly like what my ex is — a piece of shit that wears a pretty, sparkly disguise.

        I kept that turd in my bedroom for more than a year, until one day I simply didn’t need it anymore and threw it away. That was when I knew I was pretty much at meh. I highly recommend it to other chumps…. make a glittery turd of your own to remind you of what you have “lost.” The bottle of glue and the piece of Fimo clay cost me around $5 total at the local Joanne’s craft store.

        • Glad – hmmm…I wonder if I could do it for free by baking one of my Great Dane turds to preserve it, and then add the glitter.
          (yanno, to make up for his shitty abandonment of them all) But, I suppose it would always stink, and I’ve had enough stink to last me a lifetime. But, sure love your idea.

        • WHAT??! You MADE a glittery turd??

          I’m so jealous. That’s awesome.

          From time to time do you float it in a punch bowl, to practice for when/if he shows up in your world unexpectedly?

  • Forgiving doesn’t mean you are obligated to give him a second chance. Sometimes the best course of action is to move on.

  • Do we have a checklist (could put it on the site) of all the avenues of communication you should look at blocking when you go No Contact? Would anyone have an interest in this or find it of value? I’ve been stalked before and would have found something like this quite helpful. Instead it took me a lot of trial and error to go as NC as I needed. Unfortunately I have a lot of line items to contribute, too. 🙁

  • The truth is people like this are the reason my son is afraid to visit his father. You can never know what to expect. That is my real problem, not anything that was done to me, but the fact he will continue to try to abuse me through our son. He can’t get at me physically or emotionally in the first person anymore so he does it by proxy.

    I still don’t get why he picked me. I didn’t do anything to him, I was just a chump. Why hang on 20 years later, doesn’t this shit ever get boring to you mother fucker?

    • Jen, Amen! Yes, like fucking GO AWAY already. Decent folk always fight fair-he can have his fuckbuddy, LOL! I was happy to get away from a man who thought nothing of fucking me unprotected and financially fucking over his family on the way out. MAN (or WOMAN) UP and divide those assets and take CARE of the KIDS. Don’t fucking go scorched earth and pretend you are a good person (it just pisses me off!). With disordered OF COURSE, you KNOW this fairy tale is NEVER going to happen because you can not control a POS.

  • Wisertoday:

    I respectfully disagree with this article and am responding to you because you mentioned theft.

    I am almost afraid to respond for fear of being labeled a troll by the reader for expressing an opinion here differing from all the other betrayed spouses, but here goes: Wisertoday, if your son stole from you to buy drugs, but got reformed would you not still love him? I don’t know any parents who would say “no”. Not if he worked hard to change himself and to do good and to be a better person. You loved him for years, why would that change? It doesn’t. Not if you really love someone who is willing to change.

    So the way I look at it my husband was very remorseful after is affair. He was beside himself that he got caught and hurt me and ruined our marriage to some degree. Now we have a new marriage, and things are good and I like some others here am very happy I stuck it out and gave my husband a second chance.

    Now some here are def married to narcs and sociopaths and to those, I say sweetie, you did good, you moved on. Even if a son or a daughter steals something from you but refuses to change, then you need to kick them out. But if they change and it lasts for years why not forgive your husband or wife for stealing your trust or money for the affair or whatever, just as you would forgive a reformed son or daughter or brother or Uncle or mother.

    If some don’t want to forgive that’s fine, but why ridicule others who do. I am happy, and most here who have booted their spouse seem profoundly unhappy. So unhappy that they can’t even stand to have an intellectual discussion in which one disagrees without slinging the word “troll” around.

    I am wishing the best to all you hurt spouses, I have been their. But you know what things are good in my marriage now. Really good. Things will likely be good for you again too no matter what you choose. This too shall pass. All the stuff that happens to us in life is temporary. Something changes and we have good stuff again. Huggers to all you hurt spouses.

    • Gem, I’m glad reconciliation worked for you. You had a remorseful spouse, you say. The person who wrote in today very clearly did NOT have a remorseful cheater. The man is abusive and shows contempt for her. And yet he accuses her of being incapable of forgiveness.

      No one ridicules forgiveness here. I do ridicule the presumptuousness of other people to demand it of chumps. I believe forgiveness is a very personal, private journey and no one’s business but your own. I forgive my cheating ex. Not because he asked for it, or did anything to earn it. (On the contrary, he harassed me as long as he could.) But simply because I no longer give him the power to hurt me. I don’t wish him dead. I don’t wish him anything. I accept. To me, that’s “forgiveness.” You may have a different definition.

      It took me a long time to get there and no contact. When you reconcile, you’re working on a forgiveness that IMO requires recompense and contrition from your cheater.

      That isn’t the case of the vast majority of my readers here. They don’t get remorse. People who read here are no more or less happy than other people on infidelity forums. Many just found out, and are rightfully devastated.

      What I do notice, however, after reading on forums since 2006 — is that people graduate from my site — quite happily into new lives. Whereas the reconciled often show up on boards years after the fact still triggering and having trust issues. And many suffer false reconciliations.

      This isn’t a reconciliation site. So you won’t find that message here — the tag line is pretty clear. So this may not be the community for you. I’m glad your infidelity experience had a happy reconciled ending. The vast majority do not.

      • Your bitter Bunny cartoon is one of my favorite. Did you use Gem as your inspiration?

      • Hi CL, it’s Micha here. Thank you for the UBT and I did learn my no contact lesson. I’ll keep my kibbles for myself thankyou lol. Please know that you and Chump Nation helped me heal up a bit more today. And I learned a lot too. The trauma bond insight is spot on in my case I think. Funny I didn’t see it, but those lying eyes of mine needed perspective. Gratitude to all!

      • I am a chump who is in reconciliation as well. I have a much different take on it than other people who have reconciled seem to have. To me, their comments seem to blithely assume the cheating is a thing in the past or something that you move on from in a marriage. It is not.

        Cheating is not a marriage issue. It is a defect in the cheating spouse, whatever flavor of cheater each of us may have. As today’s post illustrates, cheaters will go to great lengths to deny this fact, often in horrible ways. Recovery and healing started for me when I first truly understood this fact.

        I don’t think there is any reconciliation until the cheater gets this point as well. This understanding does not say “I cheated because I felt old” or any other variation of excuse. It says, “I cheated because I am a fucked up human.” If they comprehend this, the chump will know in their actions. There is so much more to cheating than the sex. They are liars, manipulators, and covet the power in a relationship.

        The cheater has to change himself or herself. It’s grueling work for them and for us, if it happens. It is a process. For me, for couples who are reconciling, I don’t agree with all this discussion of “forgiveness” or “my marriage is better,” for the simple reason that cheating never should happen, should be a deal breaker, and it takes a long, difficult time to rebuild.

        The best I can say about it is I have learned a lot about myself, my wife and life in general. I am resilient and will have a successful life regardless of how my marriage turns out. If my wife continues to make her life choices consistent with being a quality person and mother, I will be proud of that fact. But I will never say that cheating improved our marriage or make any excuse for her as to why it happened. It was intentional and hurtful. It harmed our marriage and our three children in very difficult and painful ways. The fact that she has changed, and hopefully remains consistent with that change, is the only positive thing to result. My boys and I have learned to face difficult times and to learn how tough life may be. That is positive but not a process we wish to repeat.

        Best of luck to all.

    • Gem: I think there is a big difference between your post and the Chumpedonly1time, etc. above. Some people may, indeed, have remorseful spouses who get their act together and make amends (my aunt had one of those).

      Chumpedonly1time and his counterpart come here to subtly ridicule people who are already in pain. And “called my wife’s affair partner” & became friends with him. Total BS. sorry–that screams “troll.”

      And his “Anyway carry on guys, this blog is funny, if nothing else.” REALLY? People hurting from years of betrayal is FUNNY?

      Sorry–the whole thing screams “troll.” That is why we mock them; we don’t mock people who come with honest tales of reconciliation, or honest intentions.

      • i still call BS!!! and Troll!!!

        if she is so happy and her marriage is so Really Good. then what is she doing on this site? i know that if i forgave my husband, if my husband had did the work he needed to do to save our marriage, and if he was truly remorseful………………i would have never found this site.

        i am almost to MEH and definately have MEH days, but i still read almost every day. this GEM sapposedly forgave her husband and has a Really Good marriage?…………………………………………………then WHY IS SHE ON THIS SITE????

        i am not bashing reconciliation, i believe it can and does happen. what i dont understand is if a person has successfully reconciled WHY would they be posting on a “LEAVE a cheater” site in the first place…

        i could be wrong…..just my opinion

      • Yes, Tempest! Yet these tales of how cheaters go on for years AFTER they get caught and reconcile make me want to scream. There’s too much justification for their behavior without remorse. What does forgiveness offer a cheater? It gives them the power to disrespect their spouse again in the future. Cheating is abuse!

    • I am praying that I will be one of the rare cases where reconciliation works. I still come here to stay grounded. It helps me look at things clearly. And my biggest takeaway is learning to differentiate between real remorse and GINR. One thing is certain, infidelity did not make my marriage better. I understand that I am taking a risk.

      • Here is the thing, working it out,

        Your spouse knew the risks, calculated, and then did it anyway.

        If your spouse had a full blown affair with all the risks and decisions that entails, then there is nothing left for you other than to assume ALL of the risk, because by taking your spouse back, you in fact condone what he did, otherwise your spouse would not be with you.

        When my ex-wife had an affair, I know that she calculated that I would take her back even after her heinous actions – that is not real remorse.

        I bet that your spouse figured the same – that you would take them back…and you have!

        Again, if they really loved you more than anyone they would not have hurt you like they did. It is that simple.

        Life is short. There are billions of people on the planet. I am certain that there is someone out there who will not make a promise before friends, family and God and then throw me away like an empty beer can because she thinks it is funny.

        I am sure you can also.

        Good luck.

    • Gem

      The ex in my life wasn’t a psychopath, sociopath or serial cheater. I stayed for three (torturous) years to try and work it out and all I have to show for it is a wasted 3 years of my precious time. He (much like the majority of cheaters) felt he did enough just by ‘choosing me after the affair’. Funny, I thought he chose me when we got married 27 years prior.

      During our wreck-con-ciliation, I demanded ‘no contact’ with the OW and I was a full time member of the marriage police force. It was awesome! (insert sarcasm font here). Each time i checked I found some contact she initiated but he wouldn’t tell her to stop. He left that up to me. I wrote awesomely sarcastic letters to her until I quit my job on the force and eventually quit the marriage.

      If I could do it over again, I would have unceremoniously dumped him the day I found out. Quite frankly, I believe filing for divorce and moving on is the only way to see if a cheater is truly remorseful. All these reconciliation websites and advice from the RIC is just assurance that a cheater is going to keep cheating. Unless you have one of those very rare unicorns but I am dubious when I hear about those; If for no other reason that when I was in the throws in believing in my unicorn, I was very guilty of gilding the lily quite a bit about the ‘work’ he was doing.

      I’m not going to say your husband didn’t do the real work and I’m not going to call you a troll and hey I’m happy for you if it all works out. That being said, I’ve been reading here for a while and I don’t get the vibe that ‘the most here who have booted their spouse seem profoundly unhappy.” They might still be mad and have not reached the great state of Meh yet but the majority of them are pretty glad they’ve left a cheater and gained a life. I know I am but then again I understand the difference between grieving and expressing anger occasionally and “being profoundly unhappy.” Go figure!


        • Thanks Jayne I had fun with it!

          I would never give someone who is reconciling a hard time but to me it’s kind of like religion: personal. Great if it’s working for you but it doesn’t work for a lot of other people (majority) so act accordingly.

          I also don’t care for it when reconcilers try to put their cheaters in a different category than other cheaters, aka not a sociopath, serial cheater or psychopath. I would venture a guess that the a lot of cheaters are just your run of the mill entitled assholes.

          I also find that when you wing a bit of logic in the path reconcilers like chumpedonly one time; chumped too (both who appear to be the same person???) and yes even gem, you get a lot of crickets in return. In their defense, it is probably not fair to engage them in a battle of wits since they are clearly unarmed!

    • After forgiveness and Reconciling efforts failed for the seventeenth time over 36 years I decided I had enough. The reality was that he was limited in every way. He wasn’t intelligent, drank, smoked pot daily, was selfish, cheated, lied, and was addicted to porn. I went on vacations by myself for year. Living with his negativity impacted my well being. This man I married enjoyed my pain. Now the emptiness that defined my life is gone. I chose to fight for myself instead of for him. I am worth it. Healing is possible in a supportive environment. This nation of chumps is a lifeline. We gain strength knowing we are not alone. Forgiving an abuser never worked for me, rather it kept me stuck. Working through the pain allowed me to change for the better. I have hope, my family, friends, and snark! What they say no longer matters when we know the truth.

  • Oops (typo alert) meant to say “there” not “their” Prolly lots of other typos I missed to, wide fingers, I guess.

    Huggers to you all.

    • Gem, you must be a new reader here, or you would know that people who are attempting reconciliation are not ridiculed here. I myself attempted 5 years of reconciliation with a cheater/domestic abuser. We’ve had many discussions about what true reconciliation should or should not look like. Ultimately, we believe – due to personal experience, that true reconciliation whilst not dead as a dodo is certainly as rare as a white rhinoceros. What we are not enamoured with, is people who feel compelled to visit and comment on this site with their ridiculing of our group philosophy. this isn’t Athens and while you might be surprised to learn we do actually enjoy a good debate – if you expect to posit a theory similar to how a tortoise could outrun both hare and arrow, I suggest you find other, like-minded people to debate that with. We adhere to a more Stoical leaning on this website.

      Do you mind if I don’t accept your ‘huggers’.

  • You can’t compare your cheating husbamd with ‘reformed’ son! You are not “Intimate” with your son (at least not in most states) like you are with your husband….. That is NOT a true comparison or arguement Gem!

  • Chumplady: Thank you for the intelligent response.

    ((((((((((((((((((((((((((Lady strange wrote:You can’t compare your cheating husbamd with ‘reformed’ son! You are not “Intimate” with your son (at least not in most states) like you are with your husband….. That is NOT a true comparison or arguement Gem!))))))))))))))))))))))

    Lady strange: With all due respect you are missing the point. Missing it very widely.

    The point is a son an uncle a mother an aunt are my family and I consider my husband family, too. Did not you?

    IMO, part of the problem with this world is that people are too quick to divorce. If the marriage is broke, throw it away like an old chair. No one wants to take the time to fix anything any more.

    Both my husband and I worked to fix our marriage. It’s good thing. Everything, IMO, is too disposable in this society, including marriages.

    Now if your man is a narc or a sociopath or psychopath than by all means ruuuuuuuuuun.

    I felt my marriage was worth saving, though. I am glad I did. It would have been very easy to kick my husband to the curb. I earn good money. So does he. Money was not an issue for us, and I feel badly for those who it is. But my point is. I did not stay because I had too. I stayed because I did not consider my marriage disposable, and I like to give my family second chances. I am so glad I did. My husband is a changed man, and treats me the very well. He always was a good husband, though. Better than average. Except for the cheating of course. But that was only once and we are good now and his cheating was a long time ago.

    • Gem, I was warming to you and beginning to assume that you didn’t know this site well enough to understand we are NOT ‘reconciler haters’ ….. that was, until I came to this:

      ‘IMO, part of the problem with this world is that people are too quick to divorce. If the marriage is broke, throw it away like an old chair. No one wants to take the time to fix anything any more.

      Both my husband and I worked to fix our marriage. It’s good thing. Everything, IMO, is too disposable in this society, including marriages’.

      Now, that really is a horribly hateful thing you have said right there. You said you were afraid of being called a troll. This is probably as sanctimonious and insulting as you could possibly be. Sorry Gem, but you are a troll.

    • I want to keep this classy for Gem and in terms she will understand. I know I must keep it simple so here is my attempt. FUCK OFF!!!!

    • Gem, you write, 1. “Both my husband and I worked to fix our marriage.”

      I have been on this site for over 6 months. Guaranteed, cheaters of people on CL are NOT working to fix their marriages. And chumps can’t fix the marriages by themselves.

      2. But then you really angered me with “I stayed because I did not consider my marriage disposable.” NONE of us considered our marriage disposable. Many of us hung in through adverse circumstances for *decades* (if not infidelity, then emotional abuse). So please take any patronizing attitude you have back to the Surviving Infidelity forum and leave those of us who have made reasoned decisions about our problem marriages to console and uplift each other.

      Because you know what I don’t consider “disposable?” MY MENTAL HEALTH and that of my children.

      So, yes, now I call you a troll come to cause problems rather than help.

      Back to the bridge.

      • Well said Tempest. I felt the will to ‘talk sense to stupid’ leave me, so couldn’t put together the words ‘Gem’ needed to hear. Thanks for finding the words for me 🙂 x

        • Jayne–You did an awesome job above trying to talk sense into Gem, and then tossing her (?) out on her arse when she showed her hand! I think we now all agree trying to talk sense into the RIC hoi polloi is like trying to train an animal without opposable thumbs to knit–can’t be done. (And Gem, I have to admit, is a subtle troll; they are getting better at their bullshite. Good thing we here at CL have awesome Troll Detectors.)

          • The worst assumption is that everyone gets the choice of reconciling. I was discarded, and the most painful thing when I started going to Infidelity sites was Reconcilers bitching about triggering and trust when my husband was packing his things, whiling away the hours talking to OW and waiting for his loan from Daddy so he could set up his Schmoopie Love Shack. And when I begged for reasons, he had insane ones, until he finally admitted I had done nothing wrong and just wanted someone new and exciting. And uglier, and stupider, and with morals low enough to go for a married man.

            People like me do not belong on RIC sites. And people who post on ChumpLady with the assumption that Chumps have let themselves go, withheld affection, or done any of the myriad blameshifting bullshit that cheaters pile on our pain….or that we thought our marriages disposable…you do not belong here.

            It’s a horrendous assumption to think all here are bitter. We all happen to be in the thick of it. Less than a year for me, and I’m in pretty good shape. Think of the contracdiction you pose. You state we threw away our marriages carelessly but we go on too long mourning? It doesn’t make sense. You don’t make sense.

    • I’m not sure you can say CL is missing the point.

      Let’s take a look.

      “The point is a son an uncle a mother an aunt are my family and I consider my husband family, too. Did not you?”

      I considered my ex-wife a family. The problem really wasn’t with what I considered her. The problem was what she considered me. I was disposable. She could just run out, have an affair with a man old enough to be her father and I’d just pay for the divorce, leave her the home, leave my child and pay her every month for the next 14 or 15 years.

      You see, the problem is seldom how the betrayed spouse views the cheater. The problem is how the cheater views the betrayed spouse.

      “IMO, part of the problem with this world is that people are too quick to divorce. If the marriage is broke, throw it away like an old chair. No one wants to take the time to fix anything any more.”

      Yes, but don’t assume it’s the betrayed spouse who is too quick to divorce. Check out the thread from a day or two ago about all the books, counselors and other assistance people here sought to save their marriages.

      This is not a group of disposable marriage quitters posting here.

      “Both my husband and I worked to fix our marriage. It’s good thing. Everything, IMO, is too disposable in this society, including marriages.”

      That’s great. Most here can relate stories of spouses, both husbands and wives, lest anyone think it’s just men who have affairs. After all, they are not having affairs with men in most cases….

      So you are preaching to the choir here. Many here tried to reuse and recycle their marriages. Most simply met with a spouse who was unwilling or unable to own her behavior, knock it off, and begin the work of righting the wrong of her affair.

      “Now if your man is a narc or a sociopath or psychopath than by all means ruuuuuuuuuun.”

      Some might argue that any man or woman who is involved in an affair is one or all of the above. The script is often the same. We can finish each others sentances around here when someone starts quoting their cheating spouse. There are two or three scripts from which they operate. None of those scripts include the words, “What I did was wrong, there was no excuse, I will work to prove that I am once again worthy of your trust if you allow me to do so.” No, those scripts include the sort of double-talk in the article. “We can’t reconcile because you won’t forgive.”

      No, most here couldn’t reconcile because the cheater couldn’t own the fact that she cheated.

      “I felt my marriage was worth saving, though. I am glad I did. It would have been very easy to kick my husband to the curb. I earn good money. So does he. Money was not an issue for us, and I feel badly for those who it is. But my point is. I did not stay because I had too. I stayed because I did not consider my marriage disposable, and I like to give my family second chances. I am so glad I did. My husband is a changed man, and treats me the very well. He always was a good husband, though. Better than average. Except for the cheating of course. But that was only once and we are good now and his cheating was a long time ago.”

      Me too, except my ex-wife was a stay at home mom the majority of our 7 year marriage. Money became an issue. But even with her spending, I was willing to examine my part, change anything I needed to change, and try to build a marriage we could both be proud of.

      Only one thing missing. She didn’t feel the same way. Oh, my income was valuable to her. But that being married to me and working together to parent our child, balance a checkbook, or any of those other tasks. Well, I wasn’t of any value. She just wanted a check and a permission slip to fall, repeatedly, on another man’s penis. (That may or may not have worked since he was her retired father’s age.)

      So let’s not assume people here just gave up. Most of us have or had bookshelves full of marriage books, affair recovery books and boxes of therapy and counseling receipts proving that we didn’t simply dispose of our marriage.

      Most here were the ones treated as disposable rubbish, suited only for the marital dustbin by an ungrateful and unfaithful spouse.

      • Donna, SPOT on! Frankly by the time my ex walked out he had already lined up his AP, his beautiful future, and destroyed my finances. That’s what Cheaters do. Because *sarcasm font* “who the fuck wants a spouse and three young adults any more.” My ex sure as hell didn’t and he even got really creative with his pension and the whole entire court case was a joke. Any body else know of a peace officer working pt in the local family court just to get ahead of the narrative and really fuck over their spouse? How about dumping the savings accounts? Not helping out with living or college expenses for our kids in the two years it took our court to allow him carte Blanche to dump our house?? Who the fuck does this?? POS indeed! Am I bitter and angry!?!? Damn straight, because that lets me know that I was treated poorly and I will never allow that to happen again. His crap behavior and wack life skills continue to negatively influence my life (and don’t get me started on the children and the mindfuck that continues to be dear old Dad.). You know it just gets harder and harder to LIE to myself about how totally fucked up my ex was, he did everything he could to destroy me and still tries. One thing for sure. Every time I hear Florence and the Machine’s “happiness hit her like a train…” I know my life is 100% better without him in it! 🙂

        • Yes X discarded and USED his adult children for his gain. They see him for what he is now. X asshole TRIED to get my pension. His whore is angry he can never marry her due to baby boy NEEDS me to pay his health insurance. She has to remain the other whore for the duration. Silly pigs.

    • “Everything, IMO, is too disposable in this society, including marriages. Now if your man is a narc or a sociopath or psychopath than by all means ruuuuuuuuuun. ”

      No. Cheating is my ultimate dealbreaker and always has been. I make this VERY clear upon entering a relationship with someone. I am not married nor have I ever been – but if I were, and my husband cheated on me, I would divorce him. Period. I don’t care how contrite he is – he showed he was a narcissistic prick by endangering my health, making one sided decisions about our financial viability, and so, SO many more choices beyond that.
      Yes. They are CHOICES – not ‘mistakes’ or other tripe. For you to sully marriage by saying its too disposable, and then turning your holier-than-thou attitude on people leaving their marriages for issues which are deal-breakers, or Biblically acceptable if you’re religious, you can kindly fuck off.

      “He always was a good husband, though. Better than average. Except for the cheating of course.”

      That makes him a BAD PERSON for endangering your health and financials and your children, if you have them. Ever thought to consider that? And giving a ‘second chance’ to someone who is a known liar, just means they will do it again. Its your funeral – don’t spew that shit on us and think we are ‘lesser than’.

    • “He always was a good husband, though. Better than average. Except for the cheating of course.”

      Oh dear.

    • Gem, one issue with your posts is the lack of empathy you demonstrate. People who post here regularly do not have spouses or partner who wanted to give us cheating, stop stealing family resources, and build an honorable, intimate marriage. We had partners who cheated over and over, who lied and lied, who blamed us for what they did and for our own pain and agony after being betrayed. We had partners who used family resources (thousands of dollars) for their affairs. So we do not need lectures on people who throw marriage (or other committed relationships) away. We were involved intimately with people who did not value either the relationship or us.

  • Jayne wrote: “Do you mind if I don’t accept your ‘huggers’.”

    No, not at all. I also don’t mind that you don’t want to forgive your husband. More power to you for following your heart and trusting your instincts regarding what is right for you.

    I really don’t know him or your situation and I don’t feel qualified to offer you rational advice regarding your particular situation.

      • Please excuse Gem. She is light headed from sitting in her lofty self righteousness perch..

    • “I” “I” “I” – trying to shove your forgiveness nonsense down others throat won’t get you very far on this site.
      Cut out the self-righteous shit and get real. Why are you really here? Insecure your husband is cheating on you again?

  • ((((((((((((((((((working it out wrote: I understand that I am taking a risk.)))))))))))))

    Life is always a risk. Everything in life is a risk. Honestly, I feel my husband is less likely to cheat than someone new I might date or marry. Years after the affair, he again apologized sincerely to me and said, “I wish I could get the stink of this affair off me, I don’t know what came over me and I hate what I did”.

    People do stupid things. It’s in part what makes us human. Not every one is stupid enough to cheat, but maybe we do other stupid things. I hope things work out for you. I think they can, if that’s what you both want.

    I have to get back to the salt mines. I found this blog by accident and it caught my eye. I wish you the best.

      • The classic “Better to dance with the devil you know” defense of the entire Reconciliation Industrial Complex!” I wasn’t sure if Gem was a part of that before but now I know for certain!

        “You better stay with your cheating spouse, because they have a better chance of not cheating on you than someone new.” Be afraid little betrayed spouse…be very afraid!!!

        As a hiring manager, one of the first things you learn when conducting an interview is that you should always ask ‘probing questions’ especially in regards to the interviewee’s past work experience. Why you ask? Because the BEST predictor of future behavior is past behavior! The only bummer part is that in an interview, the person your interviewing has probably read the above line too so if they are smart they know how to answer that question.

        Same rules apply to cheating spouses, except you don’t even have to ask the probing question. They demonstrate their future behavior for you!!

    • Gem, who are you, Cheryl Strayed? With your sanctimonious pap.

      We all cared very much about our spouses and marriages. I would have died for my wife and the family we were going to have some day, yet she threw me away.

      She made life-changing decisions without any input from me, and then expected me to deal with it when she asked me for an open relationship.

      I can assure you, Gem, getting a divorce was the LAST thing I ever, ever wanted to do, yet I was left with no choice due to my ex-wife’s actions and decisions.

      The spouse who was betrayed is the one who was treated like we are disposable, not that we treated the marriage like it was disposable.

      Also, if you had bothered to read more of the posters and articles, you would have discovered that many here tried reconciliation for YEARS only to have them cheat and discard us anyway.

      But I guess someone on such a higher plane of existence who thinks they can cast down judgements about how serious we took our marriage is also too good and special for reading comprehension.

      Your arrogant tone is evident in everything you write, in that you believe that you and your husband are so special that you will make it when all of us peons failed so miserably. To refer to what I have written above, I can tell you I tried harder than anything to make my relationship work, but I cannot make something like a marriage work when only one is involved.

    • Okay, you’ve made your point, so if you’re not a troll you can back to the salt mines and not feel the need to return.

      If you ARE a troll, then you’ll be back in 10, 9, 8, 7……

    • We all do stupid things. I stepped in dog shit and had to scrape off the stink. I lived with a cheater that deliberately stepped in dog shit. Instead of scraping it off he expected me to bathe in it. His shit her dog. I decided to let them bathe in it. I hate dog shit. Being single is much better. Divorced the shit.

    • Life is a risk? Fuck you! STD’s. I wasn’t wiling to take that risk. Crawl back onto the barstool your latest pickup is probably texting his next victim. Get tested. Use protection.

    • Byby Gem, it caught your eye so you went back to the last blog post and left some bs responses. Then you came here to tell us how awesome your reconciliation is and how too many throw their marriages away without trying to save them. So tell me Gem, how many years has it been since you last caught your husband cheating on you? I really want to know, how long? I’m wondering if your Unicorn has lasted as long as mine did.

      How long since your husband repented Gem? Do tell

      • Oh and dear Gem, how many years did you play marriage police before you trusted him again? And if you have such a great marriage now, how in the hell did The Chumplady blog “catch your eye”? It’s the kind of site you only stumble upon when you are googling things like ” why does he cheat or how can I trust him again” , just sayin.

  • Well, you have a maternal bond with your children which is totally different than choosing and mutually committing to each other as adults. Unless of course you unknowingly married someone who is stuck in a childlike time frame. Their actions are quite adolescent and expect the parent(spouse)to forgive them or overlook the mistake because it was the first time and they are learning to be a spouse.
    Hopefully, the spouse learned those lessons of morality prior to the marriage.
    They made choices that imposes consequences on everyone. You can forgive or not-stay or go. It’s a personal choice. I do not know how trust could EVER be rebuilt after that shit and living life with that much uncertainty is not worth it to me. Time is precious and so is my health and sanity.

  • I do not doubt there is a potential in some relationships to reconcile. I have known different types of people who cheated. Most of them are selfish assholes. Only one in particular I can think of has real remorse for what he did. It eats at him like a cancer. Though nonscientific, in my world it seems the majority are just selfish pricks who do what they want when they want. being only four months into my chumpdumb…. I have zero clue as to whether my wife has real remorse or just fear of loosing 2/3 of our income. At this time, I do not see a happy ever after…. I do not see being able to ever get the visuals of her banging a 26 year old out of my head…. I do not see getting past the lies and deceit over the last four years…. the I do not care for your health via no protection during her sex romps…. Maybe it is possible i say not probable!

    • DavidB–our cheaters’ betrayal does haunt us for a long time. A few months ahead of you (9/11 d-day, divorce final at the end of February), and I can assure you that the images of our Xs screwing other people does dim, and even when you do think about it, the emotional power is lost (mine banged a 22 year old, or at least one). Eventually those images just make you angry, and then shake your head, and then…[shrug]. Not even 7 months after D-day, I attended a conference and was able to go introduce myself to a very likely affair partner of my X. And I didn’t give a damn–no pain, no need for details, just a need to hold my head high and show her that I had triumphed after the divorce.

      It will happen, even if it doesn’t feel like it now.

      • Hell, now when I think of xH screwing the troll, who is 2 years older than I am, I shudder with relief. Thank God it isn’t me. He’s gross.
        It used to hurt, that it was the two of them now, and I was alone.
        But not any more. Ew.

        • Screwing the troll opened my eyes to just how disorderd he was for years. THAT is what he got to keep when I threw him out and filed. Gross in so many levels. Freedom from disorder is sweet.

    • “I have zero clue as to whether my wife has real remorse or just fear of loosing 2/3 of our income.” I think you would know if she was really remorseful. She would be in therapy or counseling. She would be different. Her behavior would change. The relationship (which is the result of how you interact) would be different. If a drunk driver is remorseful, she would be in AA or addiction therapy. She wouldn’t be drinking. She would be dealing with her life and emotions differently. She wouldn’t go to bars or buy liquor. And so on.

  • Micha, it takes great strength and courage to divorce a cheating abuser. Especially, one as degrading and sadistic to have the ordasity and expectation of Reconcilliation. The breaking point regardless of how many times they were caught is when you “see” them as the disrespectful asshole you once trusted. You know this! Now it’s time to let go of their power and control. They will resurface from time to time as the trolls here demonstrate because life for the fucked up disordered cheaters and Owhores is a pathetic existence. We made them look good. They lost that privilege. You are now in the drivers seat. You left the abuse behind!!! After a year my life is cheater free and I am happy. You will find life is SO much better when you focus in yourself and know the man that was behind the curtain was not the great and mighty. The mightiness is within YOU!

  • Since “Gem” responded to my post, perhaps she’d deign to enlighten me in the one area she didn’t address, namely: what kind of horror must you be to drive that wonderful husband you’re singing the praises of into the arms of another woman? Because it’s always the chump’s fault, we’ve heard.

    My post mentioned theft – of our agency. Theft of the knowledge required to make rational decisions about our lives and how we would choose to live them. To my knowledge, children are not able to steal that. Further, none of our children started our life together by making us any promises. Gem’s argument is a false equivalency.

    Since my post about agency moved Gem to respond, I invite her to read another that I also posted upthread. Report back to CN when you get that “warm fuzzy feeling” it talks about, mmmkay?

  • In one breath he’s begging you to take him back; in the next he’s abusing you. This is 100% confirmation that you’ve made the right choice in kicking is ass to the curb.

    Take care.

  • Whoo, lots of trolling today! Looks like there’s been a pretty big smackdown already, so I’ll just respond to the original post. Micha, I am so incredibly sorry that you are getting barraged by this horrible, evil crap. What’s up with him telling you he’s “going younger”? It sounds like one of the Housewives of Wherever who’s gotten bored with her hair colour. “I’m going blonde.” Gee, nice to know it was a cosmetic fix all along! Thank goodness you divorced him, and may his superficial changes bring him much joy. I hear being from Notre Dame makes all the difference.

    Please keep this pathetic excuse for a human being blocked on every possible channel. He has shown you unambiguously who he is. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

  • Hi Micha, what you are seeing in those messages is the cycle of abuse speeded up so much that it’s obvious. If you think back on your relationship you might recognize the pattern was there but over such a long period of time you couldn’t clearly see it for what it was, and still is. It’s freaking you out because now you see it so clearly and now you have to deal with why you didn’t recognize it before. After you stop yourself from believing there is good in him despite the overwhelming evidence there is no good in him that is worth your suffering for it will get easier to block him and stop hurting Jedi hugs!

  • Yes, yes, yes! I heard this *all the damn time* and it was so infuriating. Yes, actually I’m capable of forgiveness if you are capable of not fucking me over anymore.
    And this is priceless –> “Good luck finding someone at your age.” He’s essentially trying to manipulate you into returning to him because you suck so much that no one else would have you. What an a-hole.
    And then of course everything else CL said. She is wise.
    I hope you realize what an asshole he is and how lucky you are to be out and away from him. Stay no contact and in no time it won’t hurt anymore.

  • That definitely sounds like a Drunk text or phone call to me!!! Harmful words do not heal a heart!!! He is just a bitter mess! And as far as the line “you are not capable of forgiveness” …. It’s just a tactic to deflect from him and make you seem like the bad one.. The “One” woman who cannot forgive.. Well there are thousands of us who have been hurt so bad we can’t!! forgiveness is a Gift not an entitlement!!!

  • This is so typical. I just got the quarterly “Hope it’s all going good….I still love you” text. I didn’t respond. He’ll be blowing my phone up later tonight using the exact same lines Micha’s jackass used.

    The only thing I get out of it is a chuckle, because of the sheer predictability of it all. It doesn’t hurt anymore. Micha….it is finite.

    • Yes, Einstein, same ol shit. It was hard for me to see the pattern of abuse but all I have to do now is read a new email sent to me from Mr. Happy waxing poetic about his great life and smugly inferring that he’s such a great person and everybody loves him and oh he is in a lovely new house and making more money than ever, but hey why don’t you settle for less?!?! Because you, dear ex wife, you are just bitter and unhappy and don’t matter. Only I am SPECIAL. Barf, barf, triple barf. Somebody pull that lever! Chumps, I really appreciate your kind words, shared stories, challenges and solutions because it helps me to know that I did not dream this nightmare up. That someone I once cared for could do this to me and our kids and in such a way was mind boggling….(hell he had no feelings) and sometimes I just need to vent. So a nickel to all! And a great big heartfelt thanks. I realize there is great integrity here, Chump Nation, it practically oozes off keystrokes and I need this in my life now. Tracy you are “the bomb” and should be very proud. 🙂

  • Micha, repeat this: I’d rather be a cat lady than be with you..(but of course you say this silently, because you are no contact with that asshole.) Block him in every way, NC, NC, NC. He is so not worth it. Btw, cats are so much more loyal and purr when you pet them. Let him hear only crickets, it’s the best revenge.

  • I think the trolls come out after CL takes on one of the major figures who espouse reconciliation or adultery.

  • Dear Chump Lady, please I beg of you draw us a “withered little raisin of hate”! Oh, that made me laugh. Sounds exactly like something my STBX would say. This was the UBT at it’s finest.

  • What a creep! Perfect example of why you shouldn’t forgive and take back someone who cheats. I’ve had so many problems with my parents who don’t understand why I refuse to take someone back because I “can’t just forgive and forget” and think I’m stubborn or rigid. I always explain I can forgive and work through many things in a relationship but cheating is a betrayal of trust on such a primal level it is unforgivable. This post pretty much sums up that forgiveness in these cases is a fools errand because they aren’t even truly sorry.

    • Hey AbbyV, Micha here. It really is tough to have people suggest that self protecting is unforgiving. The break-down is not about healing the cheat, it’s about healing the chump. I’m still in the shock stage I think, and everything I read/ hear seems to focus on the cheater’s fuckedupness. I really can’t go there anymore. I gotta focus on me and my healing. Self protecting is our right and our instinct. My x wants forgiveness so he can keep eating kibbles. I’m learning that the best way to stay safe and healthy is to ignore his very existence. He is vapid. I mean vapor lol.

  • My ex has been sending pictures of the kids when they were younger to try to guilt me into “letting him back into my heart for the sake of the kids” and stop being so vengeful. Those were right after the text where he told me I’d probably be happier if he died, he’s not a terrible person, better than I’ll ever know, he just had a terrible couple of years. Followed by, he’d treat me like a queen, better than any other man ever could. And closed it with an, “Enjoy your victory and your revenge.” I didn’t respond. That kind of stuff used to bother me so much. And it used to be so important to me to try to make him understand that I was the one, out of the two of us, who was making my choices with their best interest in mind all along. But I know what I know. I know that’s what I did. And I just can’t unknow what he did.

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