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Your “It’s Not Okay” List

The other day, a chump sent me this letter of her “It’s Not Okay” list. I thought this would be a useful exercise. What will you never do again? What are your deal breakers?

— Chump Lady

notplanBAfter two decades of loving my husband to the best of my ability and having our wonderful children, I have decided to leave. Even in the mess that is my marriage, I feel horrific sadness because, well, he’s not “all evil.” He has a genuinely good side to him. But that side is just not enough to make up for the damage he has wrought–nor is it enough for him to undergo the hard work of changing his character to prevent further destructively selfish behaviors.

Logic tells me I’m doing the right thing for me and my kids. Thus, I’m sticking with logic (I need my brain to guide me through is!). But, because of the sadness, moments of doubt crop up. When this happens, I refer to my “It’s not okay” list. It helps to keep me grounded in my logic.

You and your followers have been immensely helpful on my road to accepting reality for what it is. I’m not sure if it will be of use, but if so, I hope my list will inspire others in doubt to create their own “It’s not okay” list.

It is not okay to know my husband’s “type” of woman (who isn’t me).

It is not okay to have to say to him over the years: “How could you do ________ to me if you love me?”

It is not okay for him to blame me for his destructive choices.

It is not okay to disrespect me or our kids under any circumstances.

It is not okay that he acts single—effectively leading a double life—when he walks out the door.

It is not okay that he purposefully took me around his APs when I was oblivious to his affairs.

It is not okay that he flirted with other women in front of our children.

It is not okay that he has been verbally / emotionally abusive to me and our kids, whether it is sporadic or not.

It is not okay that he has lied about himself, his intentions, and his feelings throughout our whole marriage.

It is not okay that he bashed my successes.

It is not okay that he was irresponsible financially.

It is not okay that he used guilt as a weapon against me and our kids.

It is not okay that he holds a double-standard.

It is not okay that he blames me when life gets difficult.

It is not okay that he cries his eyes out—swearing he will change—every time he is caught doing something hurtful to me and our kids only to turn around and do the same thing again (whether 1 day later or 5 years later).

It is not okay that his apologies are followed by accusations.

It is not okay that he can coldly watch me nearly hyperventilate in tears.

It is not okay that he made me feel as if I had to choose between him and our children—and to feel like a horrible wife when I chose our children.

It is not okay that he expects to be pampered when ill, but he acts as it is an inconvenience when I (or our kids) are sick.

It is not okay that he acts like his family is a burden.

It is not okay that he refused to leave when I begged him to.

It is not okay that I begged.

It is not okay that I allowed myself to be a doormat.

It is not okay that I taught my kids (by implication) how to be a doormat.

It is not okay to hate myself.

It is not okay to blame myself for his voluntary, destructive actions.

It is not okay to overlook that I tried everything in my power to help him and our marriage.

It is not okay to allow myself to be disrespected and devalued.

It is not okay to give far more in a relationship than is returned.

Looking forward to meeting you at meh,


Ask Chump Lady

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  • It’s not okay that I had to tell my husband he couldn’t have a girlfriend.

    It’s not okay that he continued to have a girlfriend anyway.

    It’s not okay that I even had to say that in my marriage.

    • Ditto & amen.
      But it is okay that I was able to decide that it was not okay.
      I ended a 14 year marriage (18 yrs together) for mostly the same reasons.
      I had been home with the kids for 10 years, I had no job skills and no prospects and no money (we were living in our $1,200.00 over draft for 2 years) but I could not live that way, or let my kids live that way anymore. I kicked him out. I got a crappy paying job but the hours let me be home with the kids when I needed to be. I scrimped and saved, I borrowed from family to get a lawyer and I ended that Hell hole that was my marriage.
      A decade later, I am fully employed, have manageable debt (because someone else isn’t spending the money), rent a 3 bedroom home and am putting my oldest through university. It took sacrifice but my kids and I are worth it. I also lost 60 pound through sheer dedication to myself. I am worth being healthy and positive and not any of those things he ever accused/suggested I was. I am a smart, wonderful person…..without him.
      You go, girl.

      • Loquacious- Its great to hear that you overcame all obstacles. I am currently where you started but I know I can get through this and in the end I will be ok,

    • Greetings I am brand new to this forum. Wow, the “it’s not ok” postings mirror my life. I wish I had found this site 2 years ago! I was sucked into the reconciliation scam sites. I was so close to filing for divorce. …ah but I too read all the save your marriage books. And. I got sucked into his BS tears saying “oh please don’t tear this family apart”. Mmmmm now that I have woken up from this nightmare — it’s not okay for me to feel like a failure for not being able to reconcile with my cheating husband. And it’s not okay for me to feel like I am tearing the family apart. (He ripped it to shreds the first time he played mister single guy!) Thank you all for sharing. Your words have provided me tremendous stregnth 🙂

  • This list….is A-OK FABULOUS!!! My soon to be ex did all of the above. And I let him. I read every self help…marriage help….Love Dare….5 languages of love books. He had younger women. I’m getting to meh… it’s taken 3 years….I’m getting there…..

  • Omg. I once had a poem type thing in my house that listed all the positives one should look for in life. I think I am going to print out the above and use it as a mantra.

  • It’s not okay to quit your job & take a job paying 1/3 of what you used to make before you PLANNED to ditch your family of 20 years at a very crucial time in your children’s lives so you don’t have to pay for them or look after them so you can go and diddle any whore who will have you. It’s not okay that you are an entitled loser who has used our family as a facade in order for you to appear “normal” while you have led a dual life.
    It’s not okay to have lied and gas lighted your way through life. It’s not okay that you ignore every rule put in place & want to see the kids at YOUR sporadic convenience. Go get those fuckbuddies & leave us alone douchebag. Good riddance.

    • Sara your words of not okay to use family as a facade to appear “normal” while leading a dual life is mine exactly too! That XPOS I was with did just that too! He brought me around all his business functions and what little family and friends he had so that he seemed normal. All the while fucking strippers and who knows what else.
      I still have TONS of hate. Can’t let that hate go right now. I wish nothing but the worst for him. Sorry if it’s offensive to anyone. What he did to me has offended me.

      • IHaveHate,
        No offense taken. It appears we are at the same place in the healing process. I welcome the day that meh takes the place of anger 🙂

        • IHavehate — no offense at all. Admittly i wish I had some hate -or anger to motivate my complacent ass! Time is a funny thing. You know how the divorce courts make you have a cooling off period before you are given a divorce. Well that was damaging for a person like me. My initial anger, which gave me stregnth dissipated, then the saddness set in, so cry, cry, cry I let him back into my life. I got sucked into all his BS apologies and BS promises. Wow-what a dumbass. I have wasted so much energy trying to fix this marriage. My number one reason for staying has been for my kids, so they would have a complete family. Seriously the only thing that is complete is breaking me down to a doormat and that isnt okay! Universe give me stregnth to swiftly get out of this hell!

          • Freefall–write down the history of your jackass’s indiscretions, lies, betrayals, etc.; realize whatever you know is only 10% of the story and !!get your anger back!! If I may be so bold, since my profession is related to family dynamics & children’s outcomes, children are better off in a divorced family under many circumstances. They do NOT thrive in (a) a household with a lot of conflict; or (b) watching one parent do very damaging things to the other. We can hope children learn from what we tell them, but the most powerful learning comes from modelling–think about whether you want your children to learn that bad treatment is acceptable.

            hugs to you!

            • Thank you Tempest . Wow – I made my list and it is disgusting. How in the hell could he even say he ever loved me. Ugh. I worked on finalizing the divorce paperwork the rest of my evening. Feels unreal. Thanks again to all you brave chumps for posting here. Most of my friends and family are married and they dont understand this hell. And i live in a small town so I dont share much, dont want my kids to be drug into this mess beyond what they already have picked up on. By the way what is the common opinion on telling the children why I am divorcing their father? Ugh this all sucks!! Thanks for your input. 🙂

              • Tell in an age-appropriate way, Freefall. For example, “We are getting divorced because Daddy has a girlfriend, and you are not allowed to have girlfriends after you get married.” Or “When people get married they promise to only date each other and not have any more boyfriends or girlfriends. Daddy broke that promise, so we can’t be not married anymore.” No editorials (“Your father is an asshole! That skanky whore!”)

                What children need to hear is (1) Actions have consequences, and (2) They can trust you to be their strong, sane, consistent, dependable parent. (Note it’s important to give a reason for the divorce precisely because it reassures them that you don’t just ‘fall out of love’ with people for no reason.)

                Later, they will just want to know what will change for them and what won’t (e.g., reassurances they will be able to stay in the house or school, or if not reassurances you will help them stay in touch with their friends if they have to move.)

      • Ihavehate- take offense? Ha! I wish nothing but death and a lot of pain and sufferening for my stbx. I wish and pray for that for all fellow chumps. May all cheaters burn in hell. Lord hear my prayer.

        • I have to say that I frequently think that life would be easier if he just died. Then I feel just a little guilty because he has some suicidal tendencies (of course, he can’t admit that to his counselor or psychiatrist because that would make him defective). After I feel guilty, I tell myself, “NO – he brought this on himself. You don’t need to feel guilty if you want him permanently out of your life and that of your children.”

          • His suicidal tendencis are probably just another form of manipulation. I wouldn’t fall for it.

          • There are a few of us here whose cheaterHs did die and it took me about 3 months of grief before I realized that my life without him was so much better. I occasionally feel guilty about that, but if a person live thier life in a way that their death is a blessing then its on them. In all truth, if God had given me a choice which could have kept my deadH alive (for his kids and parents) and I could have still gotten away when I was ready, I would have picked it. I would have loved for him to see me marry a better man than him while he continued to stew (since that is all he knew to do in life).

            Please don’t, however, tell widows that your pain is worse than theirs…I dont know how many are double losers (like me)and experienced both, but if they werent betrayed, they will never understand and will just think you are a jerk.

      • Chiming in here, too. Using me and the kids as a prop for his family-man facade while he acted single outside the house (and many of our friends have told me something along the lines of “he made no attempt to hide his seductions” in front of them), still makes me very, very angry.

        My therapist has said that if I maintain my anger, he wins, but (a) I don’t see any way for the anger to abate except the passage of time (a loooooong time), and (b) I think I’m starting to disagree with that claim. As long as I advance my life in a positive way without letting the anger destruct me, it seems like a natural response to what I, to what all of us, have been through.

        • Tempest, I have been working on the anger/forgiveness thing for 4 years it is really hard. Who wouldn’t be angry to find out your other was a liar and cheater? My ex left so much damage behind. I know it sound cliche but I keep reminding myself I got an amazing kid out of this and my ex will most likely end of alone or dying of an STD.

        • Tempest, I agree with you. Anger is a healthy emotion and a normal response to bring abused. I say screw any therapist that tells you to let it go. The grieving process takes time and we are each on our own journey. It’s what we do with anger that makes it either healthy or not healthy. If you’re sitting and plotting his murder, that’s unhealthy. But if you’re using that anger to propel you into motion to build a better future, that’s healthy. Best I can tell from your posts, you rock!

    • And how many of you think your X used you as a way to avoid commitment to his/her APs? It must have been so convenient to admit he was married to make sure none of his f*ckbuddies could demand anything from him. I wonder what he does now?

  • It is not OK to go see a woman in France when I begged you not to go.
    It is not OK to guilt your daughter into not telling me about the other woman.
    It is not OK to advise me that you are not sure what you want-stay or go.
    It is not OK that I am an adult and you a spoiled arrogant child.
    It is not OK that I am going to have to drag you across the finish line for the divorce.

  • Ditto to all the above, Aegis covered almost all of what I went through in my twenty year marriage. We could have been married to the same man, but mine was physically abusive too. So here is my input:
    It is not okay to kick doors in on me when I am afraid of you and trying to get distance from your rage
    It is not okay to attack the children as a way to get back at me
    It is not okay to drive like a maniac so that passengers are afraid for their lives
    It is not okay to scream and berate me when I am afraid of you or make fun of me when I am hurting
    It is not okay to ever lay a hand on me or one the kids in anger, ever, period
    It is not okay to ruin every family vacation with your rages
    It is not okay to put me down in front of friends and family
    It is not okay to ever treat me like I am not worthy of love and respect

    • Your list and my list are too similar! From the first to the last it’s the same. Mine died in 2010 but he left a legacy of turmoil and horror in his wake that still hangs like a fog. The children and I are still in therapy, still recalling things that we’d thought we forgot. Still finding out new and awful ways he chumped us. I have his ashes in the closet in a ziploc bag and I’m still thinking of new ways to get my revenge for the girls and i.

      • Mine isn’t dead but all of the above reflects where I’ve been, including the entire “no ok list.” I say put the sewage where it belongs. Best of luck to you and your family.

        • Not sure if you have to forgo all future relationships, so long as this time around, one does the proper vetting. I dated , sporadically, for 6 years, running into all types of cheating women in the process.
          Then, when I stopped dating and realized I was very content alone, unexpectedly, I met my girl friend, Jane. She is unlike anyone I ever went out with, trustworthy and reciprocating etc.
          For younger folks, though , it may be difficult to resign oneself to being alone and still happy, as their sex drives are overriding a lot of their thought processes, and that is natural.
          I was close to 60 when I met my girlfriend and testosterone was not a major interfering factor in making a judgment to get involved.
          I have , in the past, tried to talk to some of the young guys I know about refraining from a relationship if there are red flags, even if the woman is very hot, but it is pretty futile. They look at me like I am nuts.
          I was lucky. I was old and less driven and just happened to me my girlfriend.

          • Arnold,

            I’m in my late 40’s and I’m grateful that I lost a lot of my drive already. Having a good male friend who I share “agape” type love and some affection would be nice but I doubt it will happen. I think the fact I am officially past child bearing will factor into my desire to not have a romantic rlsp again.

            • ThisLadyisaChump,

              I am 63 and I make a great loyal, trustworthy, honest, reliable and platonic friend. But having been replaced by a 23 year old makes me realise that my days will be lived out alone now and there will not be a significant other in my life again, not that there really was. When your 63 year old ex husband tells you that you are too old for him, you know the game is up. However, when people see his photo and then look at me, they say he has rocks in his head because he looks about 70 years old and I look in my mid 50s but that is still too old for the ex and I can only assume most males my age.

              • Maree,

                My hubs always wants a woman about 10-15 yrs younger than him. So unless the woman has $$$ and will be his sugar momma he won’t be attracted at all. I on the other hand like a man older and have had 2 rlsps with someone a decade older. That didn’t work well when I was 38 and the guy was 48 though. But I married in the Church and remarriage is not an option and men won’t have a platonic rlsp. So I guess I need to get a Chia Pet.

              • Maree, Good Women/Men of any age (ability, appearance, etc) have a lot to offer. What we all need to understand is that there is a REASON we are no longer with Crap. We weren’t meant to waste our best selves, our one precious life, or our great loving Chumpy hearts-and sexuality-on CRAP (Cheating, Revolting, Absent, Pricks/Pussies). So our job is to get busy LIVING. We have to. Our opportunity for a better life was thrown at us and we need to recognize the gift it is. Here’s what I know to do. Make myself happy. Do what I love. Get out there -and this is hard, I get that :)–and LIVE. Smile, or as the saying goes, “fake it till you make it!” Please don’t allow one big fat hairy lie (your ex’s) to be your truth; one is never “too old.” There is a*whole*beautiful*authentic*world* out there and I would hate to think our lives would never know love again. One story here is a great example, CL’s own. She met Her husband at a music festival, in New Orleans, doing something she enjoyed (and an interest they share). Like Arnold, I don’t think CL “was looking” either but she was definitely LIVING. CL, I am waiting for the new book as I am a huge fan. And love your blog. 🙂 Maree, Hugs, I am here cheering you on.
                Kate5O, love that video. It says what so many of us need to hear about toxic people. We need to “cut them from our lives” or at least whittle down the time we spend with them. Thanks for posting. 🙂

              • Hi Drew & TheLadyisaChump. Thank you for your posts. I will prevail, that I know as I had my 1st therapy session yesterday and it made me realise that I should have done this sooner. Having said that, I feel better and more understanding of why I stayed so long and took so much and further sessions will help me understand my complacency and move on because as you know you don’t and can’t forget 46 years in a hurry. Now to work on never having it happen again and it won’t. The therapist did say that my ex husband has now sealed his own fate which I found interesting and that he has really done me a favour even if I can’t or don’t want see it at the moment. I am still very angry with the ex and I said I want that anger to go and the take away from the session is that anger is like drinking poison and hoping that the other person dies!! So I will be working on me for quite some time to come.

              • Maree, forty six years is a long time. It wasn’t all crap either. It’s okay to grieve. Anger is part of the process. It helps us move forward and acknowledge the injustice. 🙂

          • God my STBX is 56 and he sure as heck didn’t slow done at all, he was into porn, hookers a girlfriend (co-worker) and me! WTF? ugh

            • Could be genetics or Viagra. Most guys, by that age with testosterone having been depleting steadily for over 25 years, are experiencing a fair bit of ED.
              I will tell you, in many ways, living with very little sex drive is a huge relief for me. I am not all influenced in my decisions by attraction/sex drive and can see things so much more clearly than I ever could.

          • Thats because you’re an authentic human being, and you’re a guy who isn’t ruled by his penis – like a good proportion of men these days.
            You value intelligence and personality over someone being ‘hot’
            Those people will get burned in the end.

            • No anyone with a cesspool or an ag waste pond. Cannot think of a viler place for a viler person.

            • Mix the ashes with 2 turds of shit 2 eggs a heaping teaspoon of baking powder 1 cup of flour 2 sticks of butter and 1 cup of sugar. Bake at 375 degrees for an hour. When the cake is done – feed it to his mother.

    • All married to the same dirtbag, huh? We stopped going anywhere if flying monkey was going to drive. One of his favorites was to drive like a maniac, then get a cold attitude, and then slam on the brakes. I so wish I had found this site years ago – before the DD.. I took so many things as “normal” or “my fault” or “he is just so stressed.” Really, where was I during all that time?

      • Flying monkey – LMAO! Oh, Glinda, you’re quoting from the chump playbook — my fault, poor guy is stressed. Where were we? I think we were all floating down DE NIAL. But we’re free now, yay!

        • Thanks for the giggle, Fifi! Mine never drove like a maniac on family trips. He would drive for 30 minutes and then tell me he needed to sleep. I drove the rest of the way whether it was a 60 minute trip or a 12 hour one.

          • I was not allowed to drive my own car. Many times I suggested I drive and he refused saying he “wasn’t a very good passenger.” Ironically after D-Day he complained one of the reasons he cheated was “all that chauffeuring around” he did “for me in my car.” WTF? He also had road rage a lot. Many times I would duck down, in the passenger seat, as he was maniacally passing another vehicle at a high speed, and then giving them a vulgar gesture just as we drove past. It was weird to see the P.I. videos later showing OW driving her car, and Asshole in the passenger seat.

            • TheMuse–it’s always Lose-Lose with these cheaters. Typical power play to keep us “wrong” so we keep trying, and wrong-footed so we never figure out the game rules.

      • He was given to rage both in and out of the car, but his car rages were especially terrifying. We were captive to him and he endangered us and verbally abused us while he endangered us. There were times I seriously did not think I would get out of the car alive.

        Ironically, the day I discovered his A…I had caught him red handed…when he returned to our home, he sat in a chair, took a deep breath, sat up straight, looked at me and said “I have never driven a car in a dangerous manner with you and the kids in it”. We needed to talk about his cheating that day, not his driving…the fact that he tried to divert my attention with such a stupid claim showed how freaking nuts he really was.

      • Wow it seems there is nothing cheaters dont have in common. My husband drives the car so insanely when angry with me that i seriously worry we are going to die, and he says he doesn’t care! He actually destroyed one of our cars this way. He does the break slamming for emphasis too. They are all nuts!

        • Road rage and fast aggressive driving here too. Once he got 10 speeding fines in two weeks.

  • It’s not okay that he always put himself first, especially even before his own children.

    It’s not okay that he NEVER takes responsibility for his bad behavior, bad decisions or financial self-destruction and always shifts the BLAME….always the victim.

    It’s not okay that he is a pathological liar who constantly lies out of his lying liar hole.

    It’s not okay that he knows he’s wrong and F’d up and refuses to get help or attempt to change or make ammends. Being a selfish, cheating asshole works for him.

  • The “not OK” list would be useful for those of us who are divorced and still optimistic enough to be seeking another partner.

    I have applied this to prospective boyfriends:

    It’s not OK to regularly “see” an ex-fuckbuddy for dinner
    It’s not Ok to still be doing yardwork for your ex-wife at HER house
    It’s not OK to shoplift, especially when you are with me
    It’s not OK to buy ladies’ stockings on Ebay … that do not become a gift to me within a month of purchase (no he wasn’t a crossdresser)
    It’s not OK to refuse to introduce me to any ex that you happen to meet and chat with when you are with me
    It’s not OK to tell me your preferences in a woman, when you know darn well I will never have red hair or long legs
    It’s not OK to tell me about your past infidelities…although I appreciate that you saved me some time dumping you
    It’s not OK to lie about your age … White lies speak to character
    It’s not OK to have dinner with your ex-wife because the “adult kids wanted to see their parents together again”

    Just some ideas from the trenches

    • More for the potential dating list:

      It’s not OK to introduce me to friends or family as “a friend” when we are more than acquaintances; especially after introducing me to your “good, good friend of many years” who is obviously a former conquest.

      It’s not OK to be a recovering alcoholic/addict who blames the booze/drugs and not your choices for your past problems

      It’s not OK to discuss your mother, stepmother, ex wife , ex girlfriend etc. as evil incarnate (even if you were chumped I don’t appreciate hearing how you hate somebody of my gender)

      It’s not OK to withdraw into another room to surf the net, text, phone etc. If you aren’t doing something I’d object to DO it in front of me

      It’s not OK to treat anybody in the service industry with disrespect. Your screaming at a waiter about your not done well enough steak speaks volumes about how you will treat loved ones in private.

      It’s not OK to talk about your children (adults or minors) as burdens or irritations. Unless your kid is a serial murderer that kid should be a source of pride and love.

      It’s not OK to talk about or treat anybody’s pets harshly. How you view or treat a defenseless animal shows the entire world what you are capable of doing to people behind closed doors.

      It’s not OK to view your parents or anybody of their generation or older as bothersome and stupid. How you treat your mother shows me how you will treat me once the “honeymoon” phase is over.

      It’s not OK to blame your employer or work for your lack of career advancement. Yakking about your boss’s failings instead of your own shows you blame everybody else for problems.

      It’s not OK to apply a double standard to our dating. If you are dating more than one person and expect me to stay home waiting for your wonderfulness I will not be dating you.

      It’s not OK to ask me for money. Change for the parking meter..sure. Several hundred to fix your car…um NOOO!!!

      Plenty more all of us could put here … most of them part of looking for those red flags.

      • Justanotherchump,
        We ought to ask Tracy to do a column on dating red flags, since that is part of the therapy / preparation / training we all should have while undertaking our picker-repairs.

        I am glad I spent a few months on dating sites. It has been at best a few laughs and at worst, an anthropological education.

        While it is good to review our “it’s not oK” list for ex’s, getting to true “meh” will involve cementing our boundaries so that red lights flash as soon as these disordered behaviours crop up.

        • “Heartless Bitches” has a “Red Flag List” – that site is how I actually ended up on ChumpLady’s site, when through my research phase.

          Though, there are some there, that I wouldn’t consider red flags as such, or are dependent on context. Number 111 is an example – as long as a person has learned from a relationship and knows their shit well, being with someone else a short time later isn’t a red flag. 133 – not everyone has a big appetite! And I don’t see anything wrong with 136 either, given that I still live with a parent at age 30 myself – its cheaper that way!

    • It’s not ok to have a whore continuously approach the woman who divorced you to continue triangulation. The gig is up. Your stuck with it. Fuck away and enjoy the circus.

  • It is not OK to get a phone line to talk to other women
    It is not OK to be stupid enough to leave your phone so that your son can find it and read your texts
    It is not OK to have Yahoo accounts when your wife has tried to forgive you for the phone line
    It is not OK to go out 5 nights a week and get drunk
    It is not OK to drive drunk and total 2 vehicles within a year
    It is not OK to mock your wife or kids
    It is not OK to think you are actually entitled to half our assets when YOU stepped out and destroyed our family. Asshole

    • “It is not OK to think you are actually entitled to half our assets when YOU stepped out and destroyed our family. Asshole”

      LadyStrange – absolutely! and I’ll add:

      It is not ok to play the ‘poor pitiful me’ or the ‘she’s such a bitch’ card when I got more than half of the assets because you’re a lying, serial cheating, SOB.

      It’s not ok to discuss our *confidential* financial agreement with our daughter so you can attempt to triangulate us and manipulate me.

      It’s not ok to tell your daughter that ‘mom got all my money so she can pay for whatever you need cause I’m too poor’.

      Asshole indeed!

      • Ya – I got the pity story of how poor he is going to be after the divorce. His parent ‘gave’ us (no – I paid for it) some land and they too are ‘getting screwed.’ Whatever. Thankfully I spoke with a friend the other day about that and she so graciously reminded me of how my mother-in-law took advantage of me and my daughter for YEARS and treated us like shit. So nope – it is too bad that ‘we’ only paid $5000 for land that is worth $70,000. I will take MY share thank you 🙂
        Oh and back to the first sentance….. When we started ‘going through’ the divorce, dumbshit sent me a text explaining how rich he is going to be once I am out of the picture spending all HIS money. LMFAO! Soooo – when he was crying a few weekends ago about how he is now going to have to work the rest of his life (because I am all too happy to take half that pension asswipe), I just wanted to find that text on my phone and say “Wait a minute… remember how rich you were going to be after the divorce?” Poor dumbass.
        I am sure he will be telling my kids the same thing.

  • Just the BIG one for me:

    It’s NOT OK to…go to multiple marriage counseling sessions tearing down and humiliating your husband while you secretly carrying on an affair behind his (and the counselor’s) back.

  • It’s not okay to use lies to cover your tracks
    It’s not okay to make me feel divided between you and the kids (you’d never win that race)
    It’s not okay to have to conjure up an emotion because you don’t feel them naturally
    It’s not okay to drive us into a financial hole and then blame me
    It’s not okay to sit at bars night after night and drive home drunk
    It’s not okay to make me handle everything and then resent me for doing it well
    It’s not okay to abandon your family for a piece of ass
    It’s not okay to blame the OW for the affair because “you just don’t know how it happened”
    It’s not okay to ……….. oh hell he’s just not okay …………

  • Here is a list for ex-cheater number one:

    It’s not OK to have a seven month affair during our engagement, then expect a 23 year old to “suck it up, forgive, and marry you” (I did anyway)
    …I take full responsibility for the mistake of marrying him.

    It’s not OK to refuse to apologize for the affair, despite my forgiveness
    It’s not OK to defend the OW’s character and accomplishments, when she knew absolutely that she was screwing my fiance at the time
    It’s not OK to NOT explain why the affair happened after being with me for seven years
    It’s not OK to tell your family you “gave up a good woman for Marci” only for me to find this out after bearing your children
    It’s not OK to take a job where you are away from home 5 of 7 days a week, then ignore me when you ARE home
    It’s not OK to constantly make me play second fiddle to the kids, always
    It’s not OK to come in the door and mumble “hi” then go and watch TV until I call you for dinner. I need minimal amounts of affection.
    It’s not OK to habitually “forget” special occasions. Keep a diary if you are forgetful.
    It’s not OK to bash my education or career plans without discussing them.
    It’s not OK to let your parents decide what car we are buying.
    It’s not Ok to let your parents decide what summer vacation we are taking, where we spend Xmas, or whether we should buy any particular asset.

    Agh. So glad that one is over. It was 29 years of slow, burning rage.

  • Here is th list for ex-cheater number 2:

    It’s not OK that you were born

      • Nicole and TP,
        I was tempted to indulge in a long rap sheet for ex#2, but since he was flattened by the karma bus recently, I can only think of him as a puffed-up clown who imploded. I actually picture him in a clown outfit with a red nose. What he and OW tried to do to me was despicable and they are now getting all they deserve. I am glad I stood back and let them self destruct.

          • Kimberly,
            At the risk of appearing to be a pity ho, here is an abridged version of the “not OK” for cheater #2.
            I preface this by saying how stupid I was to ever take in the waif. These are things I have learned about him since then.
            It is a cautionary tale about not “settling” for just anyone if one is lonely post divorce.

            It’s not OK to:
            Neglect to tell me you actually have a wife who threw you out for frequenting prostitutes.
            Live off me while unemployed, then start an affair with a co-worker as soon as you find a job.
            Bring the OW to my house to fuck her (in my bed) while I am on business trips.
            Allow the OW to take my stuff, wear my clothes, eat my food.
            Steal things from my house to give to OW, because she is down on her luck.
            Hatch a plan to poison me when I make you my life insurance beneficiary.
            Pretend to be a good house husband when actually feeding me lead paint.
            Use my laptop to message OW (which is how I caught you)
            Pull a knife on me when I order you to leave MY house on d-day.
            Tell the cops it was just a domestic dispute and hide the knife.
            Try to break into my house to recover your toy soldier collection.
            Make the OW email me because you’re too chicken shit to insult me directly.
            Lie to the cops so often, they actually start a vendetta against you.
            Lie to our mutual friends (agh, so what)
            Tell the OW the house is half yours when I bought it for cash…my cash!
            Get the OW pregnant when you have a minimum wage job.
            Claim disability benefits for OW even though she is perfectly fit to work.
            Indulge in shill bidding on ebay because you are so desperate to make extra money (turned you in for that)
            Live in the inlaws basement for a year when you run out of money

            OK so the karma bus consists of the situation that has gradually evolved around these two, their mounting debt and resulting desperation, and their capacity for self delusion. They are resorting to selling their story on Jerry Springer-type shows, any media that will listen…twitter, blogs, TV reporters. They have now been done for benefits cheating, have lost their rent subsidy, she still is not working besides writing a blog and has just popped a second spawn. She has ballooned up to 300 lbs (no exaggeration) and he is getting porky himself. They seek interviews about all sorts of things…their sex life, her phobias, their spawn (photos of their tiny children all over the web), his dysfunctional family, …there’s drama every single day. She writes reviews of trailer parks, junk food outlets, and baby products.

            I have actually moved on, and made sure they cannot find me. I only know of their troubles because she blogs! Well, acually I still have his unchanged email password but do not care enough to ever look.

  • I have this list in my phone and I look at if whenever feel the effects of ongoing gas lighting:

    It’s not ok to experience elevated heart rate and other signs of physical anxiety when he is in a mood.

    It is not ok to feel total despair when I am preparing dinner.

    It is not ok to live with the question : Is he thinking about leaving?

    It’s not ok for your husband to say: “She is the kind of woman I would date if I was single and didn’t have a family. We are just really good friends. I am not having an affair. You can’t tell me who I can be friends with how dare you tell me what I can and can’t do. ”

    It’s not ok to not be valued.

    It’s not ok to never feel heard and so stop trying to communicate. It’s not ok then to be told you have nothing to say of any interest.

    It’s not ok to minimise myself and my needs to the point where I am nothing and only exist to be amenable to his needs.

    It’s not ok for him to privilege his needs, development, career and interests always over everyone else in the family.

    It’s not ok for me to be with someone who forces me to model a bad example to my daughter.

    It’s not ok to live without being able to make plans for the future.

    It’s not ok to be with someone who only touches me when they want sex.

    It’s not ok to be with someone who gets a puppy for the kids, doesn’t look after it or train it, and names it after his affair partner!

    It goes on… I started it when he was still living at home and it really helped me see the futility of continuing the pick-me dance. There was no prize.

    • Opal, amazing list. Yup. Only being touched when they want sex hurts so much…

    • Oh Opal – I can so relate to your post! One that stood out after so many yrs of marriage was – “not okay not to make plans for the future”.
      This one hit me hard as the last red flag.
      Thankfully, I am making my own plans now.

  • I find this post to be annoyingly redundant after the brilliant “Trust That He Sucks.” They’re evil assholes, spelling it out for them, will not make them less evil or less fucked up. Character transplant has not been invented yet. Just saying.

    • My book is due Monday. It’s a wonder I’m posting at all. So hey, if someone sends me a ready-made column? It’s going UP.

      Ya’ll can have brilliance again when my brain recovers. If it recovers.

      • This IS brilliance, CL. Every different angle that I see this whole load of crap from makes me understand it more clearly, and manage things with me ex and in future relationships better.

        I too see this as much more about affirming our values, than just bashing the cheaters – although my narc cheater ex has certainly contributed to my clarifying and affirming my values!

        • I need this post today. It would be my 32nd wedding anniversary – 2 years out from DD and divorce still not finalized and he’s introducing his schmoopie as fiancé. I’m not at meh. My goal to get through today is to make a new list of all these things. I’ve reset my boundaries and they’re really high! I’m happy learning the new me after all these years!

          CONGRATS on the new book! Can’t wait to read it!

          • It’s not ok to be selfless
            It’s not ok to love a spouse unconditionally.

            Thanks CL. Can’t wait for the book.

          • Hi Susan, I’m Susan too. It would be, like, my 30+ yrs anniversary soon too.
            I’m 4 yrs out, getting much closer to meh…but it’s been a slow road.

            Mine wanted nothing more than to come back to the marriage. Be glad yours didn’t.

            Remember, never get jealous when u see your x with someone else, because our parents taught us to give our toys to the less fortunate…

            Nice to know there is another Susan out there…

        • As I am a newly chumped, I did not read the post the first time around. Thanks CL and good luck on the book!

      • CL, you rock with keeping CN going while trying to get your book done!

      • I’m newish to CN, so I need the repetition. But (of course right) lets build ourselves back up, I’d like to see a re-post to how CN members are mighty, instead of how much the non-members (who like to stick there members elsewhere) suck. It’d be a good way to get a weekend going.

    • I think it’s more to enumerate poor behavior and choices as a way to remind oneself 1) that, yep, s/he sucks, and 2) begin to fix your picker.

    • “Annoyingly redundant”? Woo. That was uncalled for. Do not bite the hand that holds the pen that feeds us all soul food. CL could probably post her grocery list and I’d be thankful. Personally, I think this is a great thread, and I can’t wait to read all the posts. Good luck getting your book in, Tracy. Can’t wait to read that as well!

    • I disagree, Monika, on two points:
      1) lists are a different way to view and process things, so for some people a list is more helpful than paragraphs of descriptions.
      2) folks can put different things into the list, as we have seen from the various posts: what is not ok on the part of the significant other, but also what is not ok on the part of the Chump (things they did that they shod not have ahead to do, etc.

      CL– glad the deadline is looming… Looking forward to the book!

    • Yo Mons!

      It’s not like we’re sending this list to our ex’s. We all fully grasp that they don’t get it. The lists are for the newbies.

      I know your book deadline must be stressing you out CL, but it’s exciting to hear it’s getting that much closer to being published!

  • It’s not OK to pass along multiple STDs and then try to convince me after 22 years of faithful marriage ( on my part ) that I picked them up from years ago from someone else.

    • K, my ex told me the same thing, his saintly OW couldn’t possibly have given him the STI, i must have gotten from one of the skanks I had sex with before I met him, you know 17 freakin years later…they are assholes

  • All of the above – I need to remember these now that I have started dating too.

    In my marriage :

    Not ok to stop kissing me because you are holding a grudge and then continue to withold kissing for the remainder of a 14 year marriage because you “kept score “.

    Not ok to date while married. Ever.

    Not ok to wait until you have accomplished 7 years of education and then ditch your wife within two months of your new career.

    Not ok to spend over one half of your marriage glued to porn.

    There are a lot more. Many of you have covered them.

    Just needed to vent today!

    • Lucky – I resonate with the “Not ok to not kiss me for 14 years.” My stbx hasn’t told me he loved me for roughly 15 years because of my ficticious affair. HE doesn’t want to get hurt again! Yep – I tell my friends that he has not told me he loved me for 15 years….they can’t believe it. I never had an affair, yet I am punished for it continuously.

  • It’s not ok to say nothing is wrong/going on when you are found to end texts sent to your younger graduate co-worker with ‘xx’. It’s not ok you tried to make me be friends with her.

    It’s not ok to ask for space because you say you were depressed and use that space to start an affair with that co-worker

    it’s not ok to tell her intimate details of our marriage

    It’s not ok to bring her to our home and tell me what you did and where

    it’s not ok to tell me about the ow vs me comparison spreadsheet you’d made with your mother (and how I compared)

    it’s not ok that your family and friends knew about your affair before I did thanks to gaslighting etc

    it’s not ok that you took her to meet your family while we were still in false RIC.. Its not ok that you befriended ow’ s mother and sent her chummy texts then either.

    It’s not ok that you moved out straight away but refused to collect your stuff, or take any responsibility to split our assets, or sell our house when it was over, but left me to sort things out through your father.

    It’s not ok that you spent 7 months after dday going back and forth between me and the ow but then admitted you were only ’50/50′ about it.

    It’s no ok… damn when you put it in a list it’s more than just not ok… it’s horrific. Looking forward to Tuesday.

    • Oh sweet Lord, an OW comparison spreadsheet. This makes my blood boil. You are well rid of that crap!

  • Its not ok that I could make a list of what was not ok about how you purposely and selfishly destroyed our lives.

  • It’s not OK that you involved our child in your affairs, to the point that the child was constantly being forced to lie, felt conflicted keeping things from me and had to be hospitalized from the stress.

    It’s not OK that you lied to me for four years (about several OW) while spewing a constant refrain of “she’s just a friend, she’s just a friend, she’s just a friend.”

    It’s not OK that you told our son “I don’t like fat chicks” (referring to me and why we are no longer together)…then your next OW is in fact, a fat woman as well!

    It’s not OK that you isolated me from friends, neighbors, etc., with your stupidity and rages…but were rarely home over the past few years running around with OW.

    It’s not OK that our son could not go to camp one year because we didn’t the $, while you were running around wasting cash on other women, getting (shitty) tattoos, etc.

    It’s not OK that you still breath…wish you would die (painlessly of course) so I can collect the life insurance $ before the divorce is final and I have to cancel the policy!!! fucktard

    • Don’t cancel the life insurance policy if he is paying child support. It will guarantee child support will still be paid if he dies before your kids turn 18.

    • Mine brought OW into my home, where she proceeded to lecture my teenage daughter about wearing “inappropriate” clothing in front of her father. My daughter was wearing her high school track uniform! Not one to put up with shit from anyone, my daughter promptly put the bitch in her place. I also felt something was off, but kept being told they were “just friends”. It’s not ok to lie and repeatedly gaslight your wife while she is begging you to tell her what is wrong and point blank asking you if you are having an affair.

    • What NicoleS said–get written into the divorce decree that he MUST maintain life insurance (with YOU as beneficiary) worth the collective amount of child support until the children turn 18/or graduate from high school, AND he must provide you with proof of that insurance with you as beneficiary annually. I am forever grateful to my lawyer for this suggestion, now written into my decree.

  • It is not okay that he purposefully took me around his APs when I was oblivious to his affairs.

    Mine did this. Tried to encourage me to be friends with her. My spidey sense was heightened but I was chumpy and thought he was loyal. Now I see it was all part of the game. Sick Sick Sick.

    • Yep, I’m with you. Spidey sense tingling, and he was being my buddy the whole time. They are both reprehensible.

      • It takes extremely disordered people to do things like this. The whore in my case came to the hospital after my last child was born, held him, gave us a gift. My mind tells me that if that’s really the person he prefers to me, a loyal woman with many good qualities.. then good riddance.

        I am sure my heart will catch up, as will yours LS. We will make it.

      • It’s not okay to continually lie to your wife, to your kids, to your family, to everyone about your duplicitous relationship with a two bit dim witted tramp. Just so you can have what you want. Because your character sucks.

        It’s not okay to engage your loyal wife in a game of “pick me dancing” while all along you are still seeing your whore.

        It’s not okay to tell your kids you will do things then bail.

        It’s not okay to be selfish and put yourself above your commitments and obligations.

        It’s not okay to purchase ridiculously expensive things while slighting your kids’ college funds.

        It’s not okay to post nice things on facebook about your wife (birthday shout outs, mother’s day, etc) to keep up appearances, while lying to her face in real life.

        In the future, my red flags for relationships will be:

        1. Extreme selfishness
        2. Financial instability
        3. Big spenders
        4. Men who are into appearances
        5. LIARS. Lie to me, even about little things, especially about little things.. and you are out of there.

        Things I value most in people:

        1. Honesty/Integrity
        2. Friendship
        3. Humor
        4. Intellectual curiosity
        5. Character

  • It’s *Not Okay* that I stayed in our dysfunctional marriage for over 30 years. All because I was stubborn enough to try to make it work.

    Lesson: “Know WHEN to Quit”.

    This post hit home for me today. Ironically this morning while I was working, I found myself (after nearly 2 years of my forcing separation and divorce) missing the “good” side of my X. I hadn’t done that in a long time. Fortunately, I quickly reminded myself of the bad side – and I know that is just as much a part of him as the good. On to better things.

  • It’s not okay to enter in to a relationship with me by lying about your name and your age and your problem holding a job. Or to tell me you “want someone to take care of” when you can’t even take care of your own children or yourself.

    It’s not okay to fly home to England using my credit card while I was asleep.

    It’s not okay to emotionally abuse me and destroy my self esteem. It’s not okay to pull a knife on me and make me think this could be the day I die.

    It’s not okay to go out seven nights a week until you found twu wuv and instantly decide that you hate me.

    It’s not okay to finally (after months) admit you’re having an affair and then for months tell me you want me but need time to break it off with her.

    It’s not okay for you to tell me that you didn’t mean the above, you were just testing me.

    It’s not okay to then say you didn’t mean the above because you were “cushioning me”.

    It’s not okay to say you thought I’d changed and then see that I haven’t so don’t want me again.

    It’s not okay to call me crazy, nervous, high strung, when you’re the one who left me broke, bankrupt, and frightened.

  • It’s not ok to steal from your kids’ futures. He’d routinely deposit and immediately withdraw checks for the childrens’ college savings, contributed by family members on both sides. Family tricked into paying for strippers. Kids wrote thank you notes for nothing.

    It’s not ok to make your family so impoverished that we constantly had to “wait till the next payday” to buy whatever we needed. That often was repeated 2,3,4,5 times depending upon how expensive. It wasn’t unusual to make dogfood for 2 to 6 days to make it till payday. Imagine my surprise when I saw that, on average, a thousand dollars per month went to strippers and affairs! That was seriously not ok.

    It was not ok to give me an std, which I will never get rid of.

    It’s not ok that you went back to the strip club, despite your agreed condition for reconciliation, in order to provide a public service notification to all involved that you caught this virus. That’s not your job. And besides, your search history indicated an unusual interest in researching this virus six months before you gave it to me and supposedly caught it yourself.

    It’s not ok that you were charming and communicative with literally everyone but me. If I wanted to hear you talk, I had to listen to your conversations with others. I was treated to silent disdain. I wasn’t worth talking with. That message was silently pounded in for years. I’ll never forgive that.

    It was not ok to look at me like you hated me. I did not deserve that. I tried so hard and couldn’t ever do enough.

    It’s not ok that you destroyed my self worth. I was put down, belittled, and ignored.

    It’s not ok that you pretended to love me and repent your “mess-ups” throughout the 2.5 month false recovery time before D-day 2. You switched back to lovebombing just to manipulate me into staying. I hysterically bonded while you flitted between at least three women. Gross. I’ll never forgive that.

    It’s not ok that for visitations, my kids have to endure a live-in-girlfriend situation which began as soon as the ink dried on the divorce. She was one of the OW at the end. And likely the source of the virus, according to my investigations.

    It’s not ok that we all had to walk eggshells around you, and that the kids still do.

    It’s not ok that you never helped me with the kids when they were little. It’s actually not a big deal being a single parent. Quite nice actually. I already did everything myself. But now I have a consistent, reliable income of money, and without financing the whore industry, I’m not scrimping like before.

    It’s not ok that our kids are stuck with visiting you because courts say you own half their dna. Please understand that they will be long gone when they’re 18. You own your piece of them now, but they will break free. And then you will die alone.

    It’s not ok. It’s all disgusting. And when the kids get away, you will finally be dead to me. I look forward to never seeing or hearing from you again. You make me sick to look at. Your voice makes me ill. You are a biblical demon incarnate. Not even human.

    • Oh, and by the way, what Chump Lady says about the “Reconciliation Industry” is true. From my post, you can see I got sucked into this for a while. Joined an online message board of one the “builds” marriages hint hint. Bought the books, devoured the wisdom, and tried to fix me, while struggling to shove the truth under the rug with copious quantities of alcohol. He wouldn’t go to counseling, or would once we had the money, which never happened. He signed my agreement of reconciliation, and proceeded to break half the conditions, with clever justifications like above.

      I encountered Chump Lady on the message board I joined. She and a psychiatrist I started seeing for depression, were the guiding lights who led me out of the abyss. I will always be grateful to both.

    • Check into your state’s laws – I know where I live, a child has the right after the age of 12 to decide they don’t want to visit the other parent anymore. And their visitation holds no bearing on child support.

      • Ditto here (Quebec); from age 8, the child’s preferences are ‘heard’ in custody decision making, from age 12 they decide how much time to spend w/each parent, and from age 14, whether to spend any time at all. Worth checking out, ’cause 18 is a long time! (And even at 16 or 17, lots of kids just get ‘too busy’ to spend much time w/the parent they can’t stand. Jobs, sports, volunteering, social life ….)

      • Thanks Kel and KarenE for the replies. I thought so too, when I first separated. Had well meaning friends tell me second-hand accounts of this being the case. My lawyer specifically told me that there is no such age, and without physical or sexual abuse, there was no way a judge would let a 14yo decide. Apparently courts equate emotional and psychological abuse as positive parenting time. So we’re stuck until he runs off with a whore or his heart gives out due to his lifestyle.

        • Crimson Comet–get a second opinion, and if your lawyer is wrong, get the custody amended when your children reach the relevant age. (Chances are, cheaters not being the loyal type, his enthusiasm for custody will taper off over time anyway.)

    • Love the rant Crimson Comet. I’m going to write my own in my journal tomorrow! Very empowering.

  • It’s not OK to ruin our honeymoon with your temper.

    It’s not OK that you disrespect me because you’re upset.

    It’s not OK that you’re upset all the time, over inconsequential crap.

    It’s not OK to get upset all the time, like a spoiled brat.

    It’s not OK that you deceived me into marrying a person who isn’t a Christian.

    It’s not OK to tell me, in front of our marriage counselor, that you intend to continue cheating.

    It’s not OK to tell me you can’t decide between me and your AP.

    It’s not OK to keep me hanging on while you had your affair openly.

    It’s not OK that you unilaterally decided on a separation – so you can cheat and do drugs.

    It’s not OK that you smoke pot behind my back.

    It’s not OK that you moved out while I was at work.

    It’s not OK that took a day off and told me you were going to the doctors to cheat on me, while I was at work.

    It’s not OK that you have a different persona when there’s someone else around.

    It’s not OK that you played the jealous wife and insinuated that I can be unfaithful while contemplating cheating on me.

    Ok, this can go on and on and on. I’ll stop.

  • This topic is especially relevant for me, as I spent quite a bit of time and energy trying to convince my ex that certain things were, in fact, not OK, while he kept telling me that threatening me physically (very, very convincingly) was ‘not a big deal’ (because he didn’t actually hurt me) and that infidelity is ‘just something that happens in relationships’.

    (Sometimes I wished I could go back in time in an alternate universe, screw around and threaten him before he did those things to me, and see how OK he actually was with it.)

    FINALLY I realized that it was totally irrelevant whether he ever understood or accepted that these things are not OK. They are not OK for ME. And I don’t ever again want to be with someone for whom these things are OK.

    I’ve got to clarify the ‘not OK’ list in my mind, though. Clearly my picker was not working at all when I met him, I have a big weakness for poor sausages, and I don’t want to make this kind of mistake again! I want to be with someone who shares my values, and wants the kind of relationship that I want. Took me a very long time to understand that that was NOT my ex.

    • KarenE–I think a lot of us waste a lot of effort trying to explain to our Cheaters that what they’re doing is NOT okay, and in fact hurts us. I have cried tears of frustration in the past when trying to explain to my STBX that what he did was very hurtful to me. I am not a person who cries, but his failure to understand/acknowledge my pain from something he could easily choose to do otherwise (see? a compromise–I’m not telling you NOT to do something, but to achieve the goal through some other means)–had me break down more than once.

      And this was not even about cheating. I didn’t even bother to try to explain to him how much his cheating hurt. By that time, I realized he didn’t care/couldn’t understand.

      Hence, to add to the list of excellent “It’s not OK” things: It’s not OK for you to blow me off when I’m trying to tell you that what you’re doing causes me pain. It is especially not OK when I am trying to meet you half way by letting you know that what you’re doing causes me pain, but if you did it in X way instead of Y way, you could still do it.

      • It’s because we all continued to think that our cheaters were ‘normal’ people with a conscience and empathy. If only they could SEE how much they were hurting us, of course they’d feel guilty and stop their infidelity and gas lighting and blame shifting !!!

        Didn’t happen, never going to happen, because they are not normal, and are missing the empathy module.

  • Oh yeah – it is NOT ok for MOW justafriend to be at our house constantly and forced into my life because she is such a good friend!

    It is not ok for her to borrow my clothes, start to dress like me and also try to parent my children.

    What is with these guys that they get off on having the OP right under our noses?
    Is it easier for them to compare if we are in the same room?

    More puck me dancing and triangulating is my guess.

    It’s not ok to stay married to this shit!

    • I think it is an ego boost for them-I know something you don’t. It makes them feel (in the words of my hilariously funny departed dad) like “big swinging dicks”. After one particularly hostile reaction from me, OW did everything to avoid me. X, on the other hand, seemed to get off on having us in the same room. It gave him some kind of sick thrill.

  • Its not OK to think there was ever anything OK with a cheater who wasted my best years, destroyed our family and messed up happily growing old together. His mere existance is not OK.

    It is not OK for me to ever make excuses for anyone again when I now know the red flags and am conscious of them.

  • It’s not OK that you went to Puerto Rico to judge the Miss Puerto Rico beauty pageant on our first wedding anniversary, without letting me go with you. It’s also not OK that when I got upset about this, you raged at me about how I “never let you do anything” and berated me so much that I felt badly and apologized.

    It’s not OK that you screwed a prostitute in the hotel across the street from the courthouse I work in, during business hours.

    It’s not OK that you told your divorce lawyer that all the prostitutes you hired were for me to sleep with.

    It’s not OK that you screwed prostitutes on your children’s birthdays.

    It’s not OK that because of my anxiety and depression over your actions, you convinced me I was mentally ill and caused me to take medication for years to “fix” myself.

    It’s not OK that you screwed prostitutes three times while I was on trial (as the lawyer) defending a police officer from a wrongful death claim from an officer involved shooting (but I won anyway, you asswipe)

    It’s not OK that for Valentine’s day right after D Day, you bought me a gift certificate to get boudoir photos taken.

    It’s not OK that you rationalized your behavior on D Day by claiming you were “emasculated by my success” as a trial lawyer.

    It’s not OK that you accused me of abandoning your children (my step-children) because I left you, then refused to let me see or talk to them ever again, or explain why I left or tell them I loved them.

    Even though I didn’t know about most of this at the time, it’s not OK that I allowed myself to be treated this way during the marriage. That’s the takeaway.

    Thanks for this. It was incredibly cathartic.

    • He’s a coward.

      Rather than bettering himself, or loving you for being a strong, effective mate for him, he chose to try to undermine you and show you ultimate (in his mind) disrespect–he chose to give you the double-barrel middle finger (but behind your back, of course, in a “I know something you don’t know” way).

      He’s the definition of coward. He was nothing without you. You tried to build him up and appreciate him, and he resented you for it.


      They all are.

  • Just realized why this topic IS different from ‘trust that they suck’!

    The cheaters so often tried and tried to convince us that certain things WERE OK, or acted like they were. Or they still do, when they polish their images or try to convince us to ‘stay friends’. Other people do too, when they ‘stay neutral’, and our whole culture does, when adultery is romanticized in celebrity mags, movies and songs.

    So we do need to have it clear in our own minds, and push this is our own circles and society in general;


    • I agree Karen, it feels like I’m crawling out of hell since I left my STBX, THIS SHIT IS NOT OK!

      • It’s gas-lighting. Telling us chumps that it IS ok. Making these lists helps us to assert our own truths: no matter what they say or do, it is NOT ok.

        • I was gas-lit so bad I damn near went crazy! It’s just sickening, leaving was a relief!

  • I woke up at 2:30 AM last night and sent this email to my STBX and Son. My STBX has turned my son against me over the last 9 months after I found out about his 4 year affair with a co-worker. He convinced my son that it was my fault that it happened, that I was a terrible wife, btw I was never told that before he got caught in the affair last Sept 2014. I’ve since left and live in a city far away and I’m re-building my life. I happened to read some texts yesterday between them (STBX and Son) and I was horrified to see how they were talking about me. Hence why I wrote this email to both of them last night. Now I will let go! And hopefully my son comes around one day when he realizes the TRUTH.

    It’s NOT OKAY that I feel this way and felt compelled to do this email in the middle of the night.

    (Their names), this is for the both of you,

    I will no longer allow anyone in my life that disrespects and hurts me. It’s really sad that it turned out to
    be the two men I loved with all my heart and trusted that ended up causing me the most pain I’ve ever felt
    in my life. With that said, I’m sure you both understand my new rule now for myself and that your just
    wasting your time ever trying to contact me because I will not respond.

    Kate (Mom)

    Get TOXIC people out of YOUR LIFE! Even if it is family. This video helped me to understand what I needed to do.

    • Kate50, so sorry your STBX has done this to your son. I feel your pain because my ex tried this with my daughter too but fortunately didn’t succeed like yours has. I still struggle with being able to trust her and believe that she is honest with me because of some of the things he had her doing for him behind my back. She knows all of this and I have been very clear with her that I will not tolerate it again. So in essence, if she lies to me for him again, she will have move out (she’s 18). I really hope it doesn’t come down to that but I am prepared for it if it does. Stay strong Kate….as your son matures, he will hopefully see his father for what he is and realize what he is missing from his life.

      • BBCheater, I really think the day will come when STBX’s life will completely implode and all the truth will come out finally. Hopefully that’s when my son will realize he was as betrayed as much as I was. Praying for truth is all I can do!

        • Kate
          Children have a way of figuring these things out as they mature. It’s good to leave that door open for your son. Living with your X may be short lived.

        • Kate50–I feel for you; having your son turned against you is yet another injustice.

          Kids who are the same sex as the cheater have an especially hard time of it because they naturally want to identify with that parent as part of the developmental process, and (as children), they are perhaps more prone to the gas lighting.

          Truth will out, though it may take awhile. Good for you letting them both know you won’t tolerate disrespect in any relationship. Hugs to you.

  • I agree with so many above plus:
    It’s not okay that you didn’t figure out and tell me about your sexual orientation before marriage. 

    It’s not okay that you met so many bio women and transsexual women from Craigslist and AFF etc for sex that you claim that you don’t even know the number. 

    It’s not okay that you refused to change yor phone number after using it so much for cheating. 

    It’s not okay that you continue to use your cheating usernames in other social media. 

    It’s not okay that you verbally abuse me and tell me that you want to watch me suffer. 

    It’s not okay that you followed me from room to room for hours yelling at me or that I didn’t leave sooner. 

    It’s not okay that you view your verbal abuse and rages as “our arguments.”

    It’s not okay that I’m scared of you or that you have hit other women. 

    It’s not okay that I’m this good of a person, this fun, this sexy, and this successful and that I waste any more time on you. (It wouldn’t be okay regardless of my awesome qualities either.)

  • It’s not okay to lie on the bed watching TV when I do all the work
    It’s not okay to grumble when I call you for dinner
    It’s not okay to rearrange the solar system and expect me to spend weekends recabling it
    It’s not okay to close doors in my face because you dislike the puppy
    It’s not okay to look bored and sleep on the couch when invited somewhere
    It’s not okay to let me drive wherever we go (even to your parents’ place)
    It’s not okay to let me pay everything up front and calculate later how much you owe
    It’s not okay to send harsh messages when you want something from me
    It’s not okay to never say / write please and thank you to anyone except your whores
    It’s not okay to giggle every night on Skype with a stranger even if she teaches you a language
    It’s not okay that the stranger actually teaches you a lot more than a language… 🙁
    It’s not okay to be satisfied and proud that you took advantage of someone
    It’s not okay to continue walking ahead of me and not turn around when I fall and hurt myself
    It’s not okay to walk far ahead of me anyway
    It’s heineous to say you don’t want commitment and then plan a wedding with a foreigner
    It’s not okay to answer that all is fine when asked, and suddenly decide to dump me
    It’s not okay to refuse every opportunity to make new friends and then look for friendship on line
    It’s not okay to use commute fatigue as an excuse to rent an appartment and leave me alone all the time
    It’s not okay to take advantage of your appartment to Skype to more strangers and watch porn
    It’s not okay to expect me to maintain the house and act as a tourist office every weekend
    It’s not okay to lure single strangers to visit our area, using our weekend pictures
    It’s not okay that I pay for gas when you’re in the red and then you drive a stranger around for free
    It’s not okay to talk me into linking another single woman who desires you
    It’s not okay to never plan relaxing vacation with sports for both of us
    It’s not okay to consider that I could spend said vacation to drive you and another woman around

    • ChumpFromF – ditto on the “it’s not okay for you to walk far ahead of me and not turn around if I fall down trying to keep up with you!”

  • It’s not okay to be a licensed marriage and family therapist, carry on with a client for six months, fuck her and claim that ethical boundaries are no different than the age requirements to get a drivers license.

    • Dublindrive – I’d have his license for that one. You should obtain evidence and report him to the medical board.

      • I did. The result was just turned in this week. He received a formal reprimand. Nothing more. Go Illinois! She’s an idiot for staying with him.

  • It is not okay to keep 1,000 of photos of women’s bottoms in bikinis from the past and present, that you secretly took and then house them in a box called, ¨family memories.¨

  • It’s not OK that you don’t care about all of the ” It’s not OK’s”. It’s not OK that It’s all about YOU-YOU-YOU.

  • It’s not OK to announce to your wife and kids that you are taking a job overseas – which will allow you to more easily continue an existing affair – when you are in the line at Universal’s Harry Potter ride

    It’s not OK to stay overseas while your daughter has cancer surgery

    It’s not OK to sell your wife’s clothes and collectibles on eBay and send the money to your affair partner

    It’s not OK to tell your wife that your current affair partner said that while you work on your career and your marriage, the AP will be waiting to see “if there is a place for her,” and you think that she could not have said it better

    it’s not OK to tell your wife that you and your former affair partner were like “Forrest and Jenny”

  • It is not OK to let your work “friend” become friends with your wife – so that you can spend even more time with her.
    It is not OK to bring your work “friend” around your tween/teen kids – and let them be “friends”
    It is not OK to let your mistress enter our house – when she started giving you blow-jobs
    It is not OK to bring your mistress to those Gourmet dinners I lovingly cooked for our family – at our house
    It is not OK to defend her and make me look like I’m the Crazy one
    It is not OK to not leave – and keep letting me give you CAKE – so that you can continue to Fuck 2 Women.
    It is not OK for you to continue to do NOTHING about finishing the divorce… uhrrrr

  • It’s not okay to continually lie to your wife, to your kids, to your family, to everyone about your duplicitous relationship with a two bit dim witted tramp. Just so you can have what you want. Because your character sucks.

    It’s not okay to engage your loyal wife in a game of “pick me dancing” while all along you are still seeing your whore.

    It’s not okay to tell your kids you will do things then bail.

    It’s not okay to be selfish and put yourself above your commitments and obligations.

    It’s not okay to purchase ridiculously expensive things while slighting your kids’ college funds.

    It’s not okay to post nice things on facebook about your wife (birthday shout outs, mother’s day, etc) to keep up appearances, while lying to her face in real life.

    In the future, my red flags for relationships will be:

    1. Extreme selfishness
    2. Financial instability
    3. Big spenders
    4. Men who are into appearances
    5. LIARS. Lie to me, even about little things, especially about little things.. and you are out of there.

    Things I value most in people:

    1. Honesty/Integrity
    2. Friendship
    3. Humor
    4. Intellectual curiosity
    5. Character

  • My deal busters.

    1. Dating whores.
    2. Physically abusive
    3. Alcohol or drug abuse

  • It’s not OK to have me set up a babysitter for our son who was supposed to be in your care while secretly going out with OW

    It’s not OK to for you to start making 10 year anniversary vacation plans (we were 8 years married at this point) and the same DAY I catch you texting OW

    It’s not OK to write my parents an email stating how devastated you are and how sorry you are and how you never want to loose me or them, get them back on your side to accept you as their own again … only to be caught less than a week later cheating again

    It’s not OK to watch me make myself physically sick from sobbing only to sneak to the “store” because you needed to text OW back leaving me home alone throwing up with our son in the other room

    It’s not OK to make me try all these “new” gross sexual acts you were into knowing while you were cheating and then leave me anyways

    It’s not OK to wear my underwear without me knowing— or ever really- admit you’ve been doing it for years behind my back and expect it to turn me on- freaking sicko asshole!

    It’s not OK to have my 4 year old son ask you at the dinner table one night “Daddy who is your friend at work you said on the phone you loved the most” and then try to get me to believe you have no idea why he would say that

    It’s not OK to make one of your employees give you and the HOworker the same schedule because you “worked so well together” all the while all of them knowing you two were screwing each other

    It’s not OK to surprise me with a NYE vacation with my family and then take pictures while there of presents you wanted to get her and send them to her right in front of me and my whole family

    It’s not OK to write me a letter at Christmas saying how there is no where else you would rather be and then text her all day saying how much you wish you two were together

    It’s not OK to morph into this different version of yourself making me doubt the last 14 years of my life were ever real or all fake!

    Thanks for giving me a great kid but thanks more for making me realize what a weak ass man you truly are and how much better I deserve! Now get your shit out of my house and get your ass out of my life!

    It IS MORE THAN OK to never have to put up with your shit again!

    • Wow he is a huge asshole.

      “It’s not OK to make me try all these “new” gross sexual acts you were into knowing while you were cheating and then leave me anyways” …yep… I forgot this line… applies to me too and I hated every second of it

  • When I think back over the years of tolerating a narcissist I regret believing his lies.
    It’s not ok to allow your partner to blame infidelity on others. I fell for this early on because he was such a good guy and a covert narcissist.
    It’s not ok to allow anyone to disrespect you by cheating.
    It’s not ok to accept responsibility for anyone’s behavior.
    It’s not ok to stay in a relationship when the consequences for cheating are never realized by the cheating asshole.
    It’s not ok to reconcile. I don’t believe in this anymore regardless of what a liar states.
    It’s not ok to suffer in silence because you have no support system.
    It’s not ok to be dependent on anyone and make sacrifices.
    It’s not ok to expose your spouse to STDs
    It’s not ok to believe they will change.

    • I like this, Donna. I agree with you. I accept the responsibility for what it did to me and my soul to know the facts but to stay. In the future:

      It’s not acceptable to stay with someone whose sexual interest is in everyone but me.

      It’s not acceptable to squelch that little voice that tells me he is lying (after an acceptable amount of time had passed, of course. Right now everyone’s s liar!) or that something’s just not right.

      It’s not acceptable to be intentionally excluded by someone who should be including me but is cutting me out to hide affairs

      It’s not acceptable to have to work so hard to feel good enough for the person who promised to love me

      It’s not ok to beg for counselling for three years after DDay only to be told each time that “it’s a waste of time”

      It’s not acceptable that after a decade of lies you decide – two days before were scheduled to move out and separate -that you still love me and are sad about how things ended. Well fuck you. How dare you!

      It’s not acceptable for me to spend DDay alone while you went to a party

      It’s not acceptable to receive less than I give – from live to kindness to consideration and attention.

  • My motto is if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…. it is a duck. Never again will I allow my denial to rule my decisions.
    It is not ok to be married and have private passwords…. number one indicator you are married to a liar and a cheat…..
    Create boundaries and first time those are crossed walk away immediately…. no looking back!

    • Oh and its not ok to be called crazy or psychotic….. another pure indicator you are married to a cheat.

  • It’s not okay to fuck other women.
    It’s not okay to stay with someone who has fucking other women as a coping skill.

  • I would add: It is not okay for you to breathe and use up valuable oxygen that a decent human being might want to use.

  • Great column! The posts here are heartbreaking – so much thoughtless and deliberate destruction of innocent adults and children just because of the cheaters malignant sense of entitlement.

    Hmm…let’s see:

    It was not okay for him to go to bed with someone he met at a bar during an out-of-town job assignment, six weeks after my brain surgery, and three months before the wedding. (One of the pieces of texting/email evidence he didn’t hide as well as he had thought.) Post-Wedding discovery #1.

    It was not okay to continue with the affair of his married girlfriend during our courtship (which he enthusiastically initiated), engagement, and into our marriage. P-W discovery #2.

    It was not okay to for him to chronically lie when the truth would have served him much better – especially when he knew I had the evidence.

    It was not okay for him to express false, though very convincing, remorse. To continue to gaslight me and triangulate me to the point where I had become a shadow of my former self. Yep, Chump…personified.

    It was not okay for him to suddenly “discreetly” (?!) expose himself as we were dining in a restaurant where there were families, with children, seated no more than fifteen feet away from us. He didn’t get caught, but I was beyond mortified. At that point, I tried to persuade him to get the help he desperately needed. Another Chump stand-by-your-man-even-though-he’s-obviously-a-deviant-but-I’ll-love-him-through-this move.

    And just when I thought it couldn’t get worse, days later, all-the-while doing the Chumpy thing of continuing to look up therapists for him, I discovered something else:
    It was not okay for him to secretly send photos of us on Craigslist Casual Encounters to total strangers, in hopes of setting up a “couples situation” that he thought he could manipulate (read: bully) me into. Hell No! Instead, I had a complete meltdown when I found out what he did, and it was the definitive last straw for me, realizing that there was no amount of love I could offer that would save or fix him. Not. Ever.

    It was not okay for him to deliberately go on a out-of-the-blue verbal attack so that he could feign anger, jump on his motorcycle to “cool off”, and roar off to really meet with his hook-up-du-jour. This came on the heels of the restaurant and Craigslist incidents.

    • BoudicaR–ugh, yes, mine posted a picture of me on Adult Friend Finders without my knowledge, in hopes of setting up threesomes, or just a voyeuristic situation. I wish that had been my last straw, but it came on the heels of him asking for a divorce (didn’t know it was because of an affair), then wanting to salvage the marriage and issuing demands to me about what he needed to be happy. My emotions were so raw by that time that I didn’t have the wherewithal to recognize the Adult Friend Finder incident for the deal-breaker it should have been.

      • Tempest, I’m horrified by what you just shared and yet oh so happy to see you back on the blog. I have truly missed your voice, and I am sure I speak for all of us! Welcome home!

        • Thanks, FMT. Every story on CL is appalling; we couldn’t dream this stuff up if we tried.

          (I’ve been traveling, with another chump, which is why I’ve been absent. 2 more days in Stockholm, then back to stateside. It’s been a great trip, though I’ve missed the CL community.)

          • Dream Tempest?? Hell no! In our wildest nightmares maybe! Who knew our lives could turn into the hellish scenes they became? Who the fuck does this shit to someone they supposedly “loved” for years and vowed to cherish? These stories, although real, are just beyond the pale!

  • I could list all the bonehead/abusive things my ex did, but there just isn’t enough time in the day. Going forward, I want to make sure anyone I date in the future is a keeper. Here are some boundaries I’ll have for myself (and if it means I don’t find anyone, then so be it!). These may not be boundaries for everywhere here on CN, but they are for me:
    – It’s not okay to watch porn/chat/webcam
    – It’s not okay to oogle other women and/or flirt
    – It’s not okay to have women best friends (sorry, just how I feel)
    – It’s not okay to shirk household responsibilities
    – It’s not okay to idealize the single lifestyle
    – It’s not okay to have Peter Pan syndrome
    – It’s not okay to have been a past cheater
    – It’s not okay to play video games for days on end
    – It’s not okay to have addictions
    – It’s not okay to expect others to give, give, give
    – It’s not okay to badmouth your ex (if applicable) in front of your kids
    – It’s not okay to live in a pigsty (cause I’m not living that way, and I won’t be your mom and pick up after you)
    – It’s not okay to point fingers all the time
    – It’s not okay to have different morals/faith than me
    – It’s not okay to be harsh/cruel (if a future date has a mean bone in his body, he is not the one for me)
    – It’s not okay to think the grass is always greener

    Actually, there are more. But this shows that I’m going to be much more picky next time around. Thank goodness. I’m hoping my experience with narc/clusterB will help me spot disordered behavior early on. But the thought still scares me, so I’m not dating yet.

    • I agree with the women best friends thing.
      My x husband became best friends with MOW at Univetsity.

      I then dated a guy from home for a short while. Guess what?

      His female BFF is also his FB between relationships and he still hung out with her all the time. Her boyfriend broke up with her and guess what???

      I don’t share.
      I am also in my late 40’s. This isn’t fucking highschool. Grow up.

      Needless to say if a guy doesn’t have good boundaries around other women,
      You are going to get hurt.

  • It’s not okay to say you know you will cheat on me again, but not on AP.

    It’s not okay to say she “makes me want to be a better person.”

    It’s not okay to treat me like a warehouse where you keep your children when you are done playing with them.

    It’s not okay that I have to ask you to contact your children int he weeks you don’t see them.

    It’s not okay that you that while I travelled with the kids to stay with your parents you said you were working nearby, but were in fact with AP.

    It’s not okay to tell me that AP’s husband begged you to stop seeing her.

    It’s not okay that you could move close enough to be involved with the children on a daily basis, but choose not to because AP and you like her neighborhood.

    It’s not okay you put AP in music video you directed for my brother (that I made happen.)

    It’s not okay that you told other people we weren’t together anymore before you told me (or, you know, weren’t together.)

    It’s not okay to treat me like a cook, maid, and babysitter.

    It’s not okay to answer why you treated me that way with “I don’t know.”

    It’s not okay to tell people you “gave me the house,” when it is my house.

    It’s not okay that you decided you were depressed because of family life, but never said that and blamed it on your career I tried bent over backwards to accommodate.

    It’s not okay you said you were doing things to help your struggling career when you were really seeing AP.

    It’s not okay you changed your facebook status it “in an relationship with AP” before friends and family were even informed were were separated.

    It’s not okay you spend your limited time with the children texting AP.

    It’s not okay the timeline for you affair is all over the internet for our children to find eventually.

    It’s not okay you asked me to speak with AP because “she feels really bad.”

    It’s not okay you vetoed where I wanted to throw your 50th birthday party for a place you go with AP and introduced us there.

    It’s not okay to say you want more time with the kids, but every time you are offered more, you decline.

    Geez, I guess I could go on and on, but I will stop!

  • It’s not OK to refuse physical intimacy the first 2 weeks of our marriage and not give a reason
    It’s not OK to tell your wife you need “variety”
    It’s not OK to tell other women that your wife is actually a “friend”
    It’s not OK to introduce your wife to others with the name of your ex
    It’s not OK to not work for 3 years because you are too upset to look for a job
    It’s not OK to tell your wife who is putting up with your crap that she needs counseling
    It’s not OK to tell marriage counselors that wife’s anger scares you and makes you feel unworthy
    It’s not OK to use mental confusion as your excuse to not grow up
    It’s not OK not give wife gifts and then demand she ship yours to you
    It’s not OK to pretend to be the same religion as wife and then criticize religious frauds
    It’s not OK to tell wife she needs to initiate intimacy and then reject her when she does
    It’s not OK to tell personal things to other women but not wife
    It’s not OK to come home late from work drunk and then criticize wife for over-reacting
    It’s not OK to have 4 or 5 email accounts that wife doesn’t know about
    It’s not OK to fake chest pains when you are losing the argument
    It’s not OK to wipe feces in your eyes and intentionally give yourself an eye infection to avoid work
    It’s not OK to blame our marriage problems on me “not being satisfied with my station in life”
    It’s not OK to run to the store every 2 hours on the weekends
    It’s not OK to make ironic jokes about my LD son
    It’s not OK to become enraged when I secretly install a porn blocker on your laptop
    It’s not OK to email a French penpal asking “Am I still relevant?” when I’m sitting next to you monitoring the whole thing with spyware that you don’t know about
    It’s not OK that you kept a public blog that wife used to read and posted about your sexual fantasies with other women
    It’s not OK that I could not go out to eat anymore because of your outrageous scanning of waitresses
    It’s not OK to get angry when your wife “unilaterally” decides she’s not willing to perform certain sex acts with you
    It’s not OK that you ruined every vacation
    It’s not OK to expect me to keep boxes containing gifts and letters from your exes in my garage
    It’s not OK to not visit your wife in the hospital when she has a potentially fatal infection THAT YOU GAVE HER
    It’s not OK to expect me to keep photos of your ex in my garage
    It’s not OK that you said I “stole your dream” of being a famous musician when in reality you are a no talent
    It’s not OK that you lied to your parents and told them I kicked you out when your browser history and hiding of assets prove that you were planning to leave
    It’s not OK to lie to family and tell them I have diseases (rheumatism or thyroid disease) that I don’t have to gain their sympathy

    I could go on but why?

  • Concerning your NARCISSISM:
    It is NOT okay to insult and put me down [especially in public]. It is NOT okay to excuse yourself as playfully kidding around [especially in public]. It is NOT okay to dismiss me as being overly-sensitive when I object to being put down [especially in public]. After all, YOU don’t think it’s okay when I playfully kid around [especially in public]; you call me passive/aggressive, I take things too far, I’m being unfair, and I’m getting too personal.

    It is NOT okay to tell everyone you are one of those rare individuals who possess a sensitive palate. This does NOT give you the “okay” to critique every meal I prepare with, “too salty/never enough salt,” “under-cooked/over-cooked,” “too spicy/no flavor,” etc. It is NOT okay that at dinner parties your method of complimenting the hosts is to turn to me and say; “Why doesn’t yours ever taste this good?”

    It is NOT okay to refuse to pick a restaurant and then spend the remainder of the evening mad at me because I selfishly chose a place you didn’t enjoy.

    It is NOT okay you automatically assume I am an imbecile and anything I say needs to be backed-up by white-paper research citing at least five independently peer-reviewed sources with 27 glossy photos complete with circles and arrows. Conversely, it is NOT okay that you assume random strangers are experts and any time someone tells you something, you to me and ask why I never knew that.

    It is NOT okay that you absolutely, positively MUST have the last – and definitive – word so you automatically “win” every argument.

    It is NOT okay to habitually omit pertinent details – i.e. LIE! It is NOT okay to gaslight. It is NOT okay to shift blame back to me for not communicating effectively with you. It is NOT okay that you can only LOOK like you’re telling the truth [that’s just downright sociopathic].

    Concerning your CHEATING:
    It is NOT okay you spent a year ignoring your husband and son to spend every waking moment texting with your philandering twu-luvs.
    It is NOT okay you stayed up almost every night until 2am chatting with your Facebook fuck-buddies.
    It is NOT okay that you found my love and support at home lacking compared to your virtual [cheating] twu-luvs.
    It is NOT okay that you trickle-truthed your way through five months of me digging up the depth of your twu-luv affairs.
    It is NOT okay that you blamed ME for YOUR affairs.
    It is NOT okay that you want me to stop bringing up YOUR affairs.
    It is NOT okay that you had only one individual counseling session and declared yourself okay.
    It is NOT okay that I am still in individual counseling to get through YOUR betrayal.


    • “It is NOT okay you automatically assume I am an imbecile and anything I say needs to be backed-up by white-paper research citing at least five independently peer-reviewed sources with 27 glossy photos complete with circles and arrows. Conversely, it is NOT okay that you assume random strangers are experts and any time someone tells you something, you to me and ask why I never knew that.”

      Same here! Even when I earned my master’s degree and a prestigious award from University in my field, he still thought every thing I said was bullshit and would argue just for fun. He had no problem however, regurgitating some blowhard he heard on talk radio as gospel.

      Imagine his shock when I finished his “quote” before him one night (because I had heard the same bit) and said, “But what do YOU think?”

  • It’s not OK you still walk the earth, may you die as miserably as your namesake, Saddam. Only then will I feel entirely safe from you. Maybe today I’ll get the phone call telling me you are dead. In the meantime; it’s not OK for you to come anywhere near me and I will renew the protective order for the rest of my life, and hope I always get a good judge.

  • It is not okay…

    – to be ignored
    – to not be able to discuss relationship and financial issues
    – to feel second best
    – to be discarded
    – to know my husband’s type (and it’s not me)
    – to be made fun of
    – to be criticized for caring
    – to be left alone for weeks at a time
    – to feel disconnected
    – to be lied to and manipulated
    – to keep my mouth shut for fear of being made fun of and shamed
    – to get gifts picked out by OW
    – to have to socialize with OW and her family
    – to have to watch my husband dance with OW through most of my son’s wedding reception
    – to be married to someone who thinks the rules don’t apply to him
    – to be with someone who can’t be satisfied
    – to be with someone who doesn’t appreciate what he has
    – to be with someone who can’t see the sacrifices you’ve made
    – to be with someone who can’t be emotionally intimate
    – to be with someone who uses and discards people
    – to be with someone who has no loyalty
    – to be with someone I can’t trust

    • Oh, I forgot some…

      It is not okay to be told that the problem in our marriage is ME and to never own up to your issues.
      It is not okay to say “when I look into my future, you’re not in it” after caring and supporting you for 36 years.
      It is not okay to be cruel.

      I could NEVER have treated you like you treated me.

  • It’s not OK to invite OWhore into the marital home and bed for the weekend your WIFE was gone taking care of your dying father

    It’s not OK to bring OWhore to our vacation home while we were in reconciliation and let her store her personal items in MY bedside table

    Actually none of this he** was OK

  • Your list deserves an AMEN!

    It is not okay that he holds me responsible for his affair.
    It is not okay that he signed up for an affair hookup web site and then denied it.
    It is not okay that he says he never had an affair even after I’ve found the hotel receipts and email evidence.
    It is not okay that he told me that “yes, he does love AP” and can’t understand why I’m upset.
    It is not okay that he treats our young adult daughter like crap and uses our young adult son as a go-between.
    It is not okay that he is passive aggressive.

  • It is NOT OK to bring your AP to your first pregnancy sonogram to meet me and to share this wonderful experience with him as well. (He was her therapist, after all). Chumpy me thought it was very odd, but I sill didn’t tumble! Slap forehead!

      • I know – pathetic, isn’t it? I was naive, never entertained the idea that she would be unfaithful. I didn’t know about client/therapist boundaries, but still I should have gotten a clue. I feel so stupid looking back.

        • YOU are not stupid at all Thomas! The sheer audacity to bring him to that appt staggers me, no one would have realized what it meant, I’m sure she gave you some sad sack therapy reason for it. Jedi hugs!

          • Thanks, Datdamwuf. The sheer disrespect and selfishness or whatever has been one of the hardest things for me to deal with.

        • Thomas–we all feel stupid looking back. It’s because we see the world with trust-infused glasses; how could we contemplate our partners doing something so odious? That’s why D-days hurt so much; it turns our standard way of thinking on its head, and turns our world upside down.

  • It is not ok to lie to tell me and our daughter saying that you’re working late out of town when you’re really taking a ho-worker to dinner and screwing her afterwards.

    It is not ok to to tell me you have to return emails during our family time because you’re so busy at work and haven’t had a chance to get to them when in reality your work time was spent screwing your ho-worker or prostitute in the car or at a cheap motel during work hours.

    It is not ok to send our daughter to school when she told you she wasn’t feeling well then call me at work to let me know that I will likely have to pick her up from school sick because you’re too busy at work then get mad at me when I stand my ground (for the first time) and tell you to deal with it since you sent her like that in the first place.

    It is not ok to tell me I’m trying to create drama when I tell you that I’m unhappy in our relationship because you ignore me and place all the responsibility of our family and home on me.

    It is not ok for you to promise me that you will try harder to show me affection and love then completely ignore that promise and pretend that you never said it and yet, make that same promise again.

    It is not ok for you to tell me that you love me and you’re so happy with all we have achieved together when you have been screwing everyone you can behind my back for the majority of our 24 year marriage.

    It is not ok for you then to blame me for your screwing around and then follow-up with ‘what can I say, women just want me’. Gag.Me.

    It is not ok for you to lie. Period. Never. Ever.

    It is not ok for you to expect for me to still be your friend after the way you have treated me then be dumbfounded when I say no.

    It is not ok for you to tell your daughter that you have tickets to a pro game on NYE for the 2 of you, cancel on her at the last minute telling her that you have to go out of town for work when your company is closed for those days and your email out of office says you are on vacation.

    This could seriously go on forever so I will stop now. It’s helpful though to put this stuff in writing so thanks, CL!

    • couple more:

      It is not ok for you to sign a 6 month lease telling me you want it to be as short as possible because you intend to make things right between us as quickly as possible THEN when you haven’t done any thing during that time except continue to lie and screw other women, scream at me that I put an unreasonable time frame on reconciliation.

      It is not ok for you to tell me that you just want to come home, for your serial cheating to never be mentioned again and for things to go back to the way they were (you’re lying and cheating, my letting you). But that was probably the most honest you have been, I guess.

      It is not ok for you to criticize my family to me and our daughter because they won’t speak to you after what you have done when your family isn’t speak to me either. I never criticized your family for their loyalty to you even though you are the one that broke our relationship. Families are typically loyal to their members, no matter who is at fault or perhaps they just don’t want to get involved which is perfectly fine too.

      • geez, sorry…

        It is not ok for you to get upset with me because I yelled at you in the parking lot of a restaurant after you lured me there under false pretenses by saying you wanted to talk about our daughter to get me there then saying you just wanted to spend time with me once we were there. You lied to me, yet again. I got upset. You had the nerve to say I embarrassed you – what a joke! Anyone who heard me yell probably thought I was the crazy one but if they had only known the real story they would have helped me yell at you. You endured a few minutes of embarrassment in front of strangers who will never remember it. I will live with the embarrassment of your actions and being fooled by you for the rest of my life. KMA

  • I have to call BS on the thread suggesting that folks in their 50s, 60s, or 70s MUST settle for platonic relationships. Millions of folks in this age group have satisfying and even exciting sex lives, me included. Do I have the stamina I had or desire the frequency I desired when I was 20? No, but that hardly matters. The best movies I’ve seen weren’t the longest and didn’t have the most explosions, either. I’ll take “When Harry Met Sally” or “Groundhog Day” over “Transformers 4” or “Lord of the Rings,” thank you very much.

    If you have no sex drive, see a doctor. It could be hormonal or caused by medications or depression, among other things. Whoever you are, whatever your age, and whatever you look like, there is a lid for every pot. Cheaters steal enough from us. We shouldn’t let them steal the joy and wonder of intimacy and the enjoyment of our bodies as well. #imaybeoldbutistilllikesex

  • – It’s not okay to disrespect me in front of your friends by making jokes at my expense
    – It’s not okay to want to travel to the highest prostitution countries in the world after I made it clear how uncomfortable I was with that
    – It’s not okay to travel to these places without having invited me
    – It’s not okay to not get tested after doing the dirty with foreign women
    – It’s not okay that I got an std from your selfish careless behaviour
    – It’s not okay that you lied even though you knew it was over
    – It’s not okay that I never once felt “special” in our relationship
    – It’s not okay that I felt more like a sex toy than a girlfriend in our relationship
    – It’s not okay that I constantly felt like you wanted to put tape over my mouth when I tried to begin an intellectually stimulating conversation
    – It’s not okay that you constantly made fun of my chosen profession
    – It’s not okay that you acted like a brat and used passive aggressive behaviour to “get back at me” rather than confronting me directly that you had a problem
    – It’s not okay that your own family was warning me about you
    – It’s not okay that you were rude to your own mother and acted like a sullen teenager around your parents


  • it is not okay…^^^what everyone already said^^^


    it is not OK cheater XH lies about our marriage and divorce to himself, his family, and anyone who will listen….casting himself as a victim.

    it is not OK cheater married me

  • It’s not okay to have an affair with my best friend and fly all the way to Nashville, TN from WA state saying you were on a “business trip.”
    It’s not okay to have your AP staying in our house for two weeks, screwing in our marital bed, and trying to steal our three year old’s affections while I was clear in China adopting our second child.
    It’s not okay that I had to go to China by myself because you couldn’t leave the country due to your felony drunk driving charge.
    It’s not okay that you guilted me into remaining friends with my (now ex) best friend even though I knew something was wrong with her so you could continue screwing her without detection.
    It’s not okay that you continued to verbally and emotionally abuse me and continued affair even while in MC during false reconciliation.
    It’s not okay that you humiliated me with friends and family as I was the ” last to know” and you told lies and blamed me for our separation and divorce.
    It’s not okay to call the police and falsely tell them that I was suicidal and have them come to our home during our separation and force me to go to the hospital for a involuntary assessment while you, schmoopie, and our children watched them take me.

    I could go on and on how “mr. wonderful” has made my life hell but I believe this is a good introduction of myself to the group…

    • Every post has a little bit of my life in it, but I feel you in this one.

      It is not okay to pretend you will work on our marriage after I catch you cheating, and then spend over a year making me feel worse and worse about myself, my attractiveness, my worth in general, and blame me for everything while stonewalling me constantly.

      It is not okay to push the emotional abuse so far that I become enraged, and then try to stop me from leaving the house to cool off by trying to take the air out of the tires of my car. It is not okay that, when I push you away, and you lose your balance on the sloping driveway because you’re wearing slippers, you act like a two-year-old and lay in the driveway for twenty minutes, refusing all help. It is not okay to call the police for help at this point, and have me find out that it is to have them protect you from domestic abuse, and to tell them that I am threatening suicide (when I am not).

      It is not okay that I have had to forgive you for abuse of my son and neglect of me and the family, and still have you treat me like garbage, after I say that I will forgive you for cheating. It is not okay to say that you don’t have to apologize for cheating over and over again because you said it once, in a “whatever” tone.

      It is not okay I wasted twenty years of my life with you and still have to put up with your existence for sixteen more years until our youngest child is eighteen. And it’s especially not okay to be cheating on me while I am sick and pregnant with our third son!

  • Its not ok that you told me you were going to visit your grieving friend for the weekend who just lost her husband to brain cancer, when you had secretly arranged to rendezvous with and fuck your old boyfriend whom you reconnected with on Facebook.

    Nor is it Ok you took your children’s cash from their grandmother to have a secret stash.

    • X did that with our children’s money from Grandma, too. Dirtbags.

  • Deal breakers? I has them!

    Lies, of omission or commission, especially if when I confront you I get “I didn’t tell you because I knew you’d be upset”.

    OK, I have so many deal breakers I am tired just thinking bout typing them, that up there is the biggest nonnegotiable for me.

  • Monika I scrolled all the way down here to write this note to you before I go back up and read the rest of this incredibly helpful series of posts, inspired by Aegis’ NOT OKAY list.
    If you’re annoyed by something on the internet and you don’t click out, it’s because you’re looking for something to bitch about. Don’t whine about what you find here–this site has helped wAY too many of us to sit by and listen to unfounded criticism of Chumplady or of one another.

  • Yup found viagra and cealis in his suit case and brief case and hidden in a gum package in his truck when I started his affair investigation. I had no clue he used them, then he tried to convince he used them with me fucking asswipe! He was gone all the time for his job, boy what an insult to my intelligence he was. Oh well I’m single now, let the schmuck. Any available chumps here? Here’s me, looking for new friends now. 😉

  • Flush him! Hell yeah I’m laughing so hard water came out my nose

  • I did flush him lol, the toilet is over 200 miles away! I took the dog too, my beautiful Golden “Charlie”. 🙂

  • OK, I’ll bite:

    It’s not OK to roll your eyes and shout “fine, whatever!” when I tell you that living in the family home while seeing someone else isn’t acceptable to me.

    It’s not OK to rack up $100 grand in secret debt and penalties.

    It’s not OK to lie to my mother so that she ends up babysitting our daughter while you hook up with the town philanderer.

    It’s not OK that you screwed up your life so badly that now I only get to see my daughter half the time – do not EVER expect to be forgiven for that.

  • Marci – thanks for sharing – It’s unbelievable! He tried to poison you? Why isn’t he in Jail? Are you ok? You have gone through so much. Makes me not want another relationship ever again LOL! I hope you are ok.

  • “I will tell you, in many ways, living with very little sex drive is a huge relief for me. I am not all influenced in my decisions by attraction/sex drive and can see things so much more clearly than I ever could.”

    This also happens with women. Thanks for saying it out loud, Arnold.

  • This walking far ahead of a wife/SO and not turning around thing is nonsense. And it’s still not okay if he finally stops doing that a few years later. The writing was already on the wall. this is really a cheating/abuse red flag. Who knew

    • I have seen this behaviour in other people. It must be the cheater’s way of freeing themselves of the burden that we nice caring people are. They get a thrill when they walk briskly towards the horizon (the future) and let us linger behind and don’t care about us. They are stronger, they are heroes in charge of their own destiny, they are warriors with zero mercy. It’s their state of mind brought into the physical world. A huge red flag in my opinion.
      They are cowards.

    • This is such a weird thing, WHY do they do that? But my ex totally did. He’s quite tall, so I could never keep up with him comfortably, gave up after a while, and expected him to slow down a bit, which annoyed the hell out of him. Of course if I stopped to fix my sandal or pick up a free newspaper, he just ignored that and kept going. Then when our kids were too big to carry or be in the stroller, he told me it was ‘torture!’ to walk at a pre-schooler’s pace – he was perfectly serious about this and wanted my sympathy!! Later when it was the kids and I walking with him, he’d just zoom ahead, paying no attention to whether we had stopped for something.

      Is it a superiority/entitlement thing? I’m way too important and amazing to accommodate my pace to others? Other people should always accommodate to me? At least it’s good to see he was consistent – an asshole in small as well as big ways. And it’s another red flag to look for.

  • Its not ok that she shared details of our marriage with another man.
    Its not ok that she shared deeply private things that only she knew with him.
    Its not ok that I had to listen to her tell me that I would like him and we would be friends in another situation.
    Its not ok that she dropped of our daughter to daycare and then went straight to a hotel.
    Its not ok that she let me make life altering decisions without knowing that another person was in our relationship.
    Its not ok that she had sex with another man. duh!

  • People do not have to accept it,Nomar, but it is a reality for many of us. I can use ED drugs, but had a serious head injury with facial fractures when I was 20 and the headaches i still get are incredibly magnified by ED drugs. So much so that they incapacitate me for days.
    The reality for many men is that sexual capablities dwindle a lot past 50. Not everyone, of course, and good genetics play a role. I am very fit , usually, do not smoke or drink. Still, this is a problem. And, the psychological damage from having been cheated on in two marriages , probably plays a big role.
    The ” do not accept it advice ” may be good for those capable, but it sort of reminds me of the ” get over it ” advice one gets relative to the psychological trauma. It is not as if one can simply will oneself to overcome these things.
    Thankfully, i already have 5 kids, so the prime directive has been accomplished.

    • I understand that people can have incredibly fulfilling lives without sex; however, I also think that having an emotionally balanced life and the right partner makes a world of difference. The man I was in the last year of my bad marriage (in my mid-40s) would have very much agreed with you. The man I’ve been in the 7 years since I got away from my cheater and her drama and conflict and filled my life up with good people and activities I enjoy is a very different story. I think a healthy sex life is dormant in many chumps, sometimes for decades. Never hurts to keep an open mind about what the universe has in store for us.

      • Thanks, Nomar; I really needed to hear this today. I’m dating again–quite happily, albeit cautiously–but I haven’t gotten to the point of this coming into the equation, and I don’t expect to anytime soon. It’s been incredibly healing to feel interesting and attractive and desirable again (honestly, I think that’s coming more from where I am in my healing journey than from anybody I’ve met), but part of me is really scared I may have lost my mojo. How you phrased it makes a lot of sense to me: I think there is a pre- and post-chump self, and those identities are really different. I’ve got hope that I’ll figure it out and, as you said, I’ll keep an open mind about what the universe has in store for me.

        Big hugs to you, and thanks for your many resonant and funny posts. I hope you know what a difference your voice makes, I’m sure for all of us.

        • I’ll second that: Nomar, you are a jewel of a man, and I hope your partner treats you deliriously well.


      • I would love to have one,Nomar. But, i would need a time machine, i am afraid. Too bad most of my prime was spent in virtually sexless marriages. I was constantly rejected while my spouses were having the times of their lives, apparently.
        And, now thst ship has sailed, i am sorry to say.
        But, i agree, if a person has the neccessary physicality, try to re-establish confidence, if possible.

      • Also, i have to factor in that I have been through this twice, now,and the second time seemed even harder on me. After the first one, i did rebound sexually. Not the second time, though. Just too much accumulated trauma combined with being older, i guess.

  • A lot of mine are financial!
    That’s just what X was really good at- making horrible money decisions.
    It’s not OK to leave your job, and say ‘It’s someone else’s turn to work!’
    It’s not OK to inherit your brother’s house, sell it, and then refuse to share any of the money with your wife, or your kids for college costs.
    It’s not OK to buy a Ducati cycle brand new, while we are struggling financially.
    It’s not OK to buy me a brand new Honda scooter, when we have a 2 yr old, and I’m 6 months pregnant (and I don’t even want it!).
    It’s not OK to rent a garage for a car repair business, then never go there, and refuse to give it up, for 12 years. It cost us 70 K in that time, and again, we were struggling financially!
    Sooooooo glad I’m in charge of my own finances now! And guess what? They are much, much better!

  • It’s not okay to marry someone you claimed you never loved.

    It’s not okay to introduce your bimbo’s ex-husband/pedophile who did time for raping their 12-year old daughter to our sons. EVER. I don’t care if you’re all best friends now that “he’s done his time.”

    It’s not okay to manipulate your kids to benefit your own agenda. And then get pissed at them when they figure out you played them.

    • I hope my DD figures out she’s been played. She hates me and thinks he’s the best thing since sliced bread while taking long trips, camping and staying in hotel rooms with him and his new GF who is only 5.5 years older than my DD. they just are having a blast this summer with all these outings while I’m left at home to take care of pets and the house while it’s on the market. my dd thinks that dad is just helping this girl and they’re having so much fun while mom is just so boring and is bitch for not letting this girl into the house. Cuz he didn’t tell her the truth when she asked him months ago if they were having sex, I’m the psycho mom who got a restraining order against this girl for no reason

      • Kfl–tell your daughter the truth. No embellishments, as calmly as you can. It will possibly set off a maelstrom, but she is entitled to the truth and deserves to be free from gas lighting.

        • I wish I did when she asked me rather than tell her to ask her father who proceeded to lie to her. She’s such a daddy’s girl that she’d never believe me over him. It’s just so messed up. I mean what 16 yr old girl wouldn’t want to hang with a 22yr old wild college girl and her dad who now acts like he’s in his 20’s also over her old mom who had rules and she thinks is a bitch. Maybe I just shouldn’t fight it and let her stay with her dad ful time which is what she wants even though I think that’s going to screw her up in the long term

          • Kfl–NO!!!! Your daughter does not want you to be like Dad or his (almost) underaged-OW! Yes, she thinks they are fun and novel and she can buy his lies (or seem to). But….your daughter wants you to be the stable one. She wants you to be the one to tell her the truth (whether she can accept it right away is not the issue). She wants you to be trustworthy (even if she calls it boring). She may not even KNOW that she wants all that, but that is what will benefit her the most–tell her the truth, prepare yourself for a backlash of some kind (hard to predict whether anger or sadness will show itself), and then be her PARENT, as you have been.

            Whatever unkind things your daughter says to you right now, she needs the structure that you are providing. She’s obviously not up to being a support unit for you right now, so make sure you have plenty of social support from other people, and stay the course. Great work, even if thanks aren’t forthcoming now.

  • I’ve read through all the posts, and I gotta say, this is one of the most heartbreaking yet uplifting threads I have seen. Earlier Monika posted about how annoying and redundant it was, but it occurs to me that there is a ginormous difference between enumerating all the ways our cheaters suck and making a list of things that aren’t okay. The first may be satisfying on a really visceral level (hey, nothing wrong with that), but this thread asks us to carry forward what we have learned post-chump. It’s not enough to just rage against what happened, though that is an important and validating stage of the process; we also have to reflect and change. Thank you so much to everybody who shared. I will share my own list later, but holy cow. I am humbled and inspired by what we have all have endured and continue to transcend.

  • It’s not ok to masturbate to porn behind your wife’s back.
    It’s not ok to blame your poor performance in law school on your wife lack of support (who worked full time) when it was a result of you wasting time viewing porn instead of studying.
    It’s not ok to get in your wife’s face to swear and spit on her.
    It’s not ok to give your wife a black eye.
    It’s not ok to leave your wife at a g in a tiny N.M. town because she didn’t want to wait to switch who was driving until the next gas station.
    It’s not ok to commit sex acts on yourself via a web cam with another woman watching.
    It’s not ok to marry someone knowing they want children and then deny them children for 7 years.
    It’s not ok to agree to have children when you really don’t want them just to keep from losing face if your wife decides to divorce you for breaking your promise to have children.
    It’s not ok to go on dates with people you met on Craig’s list while your wife is taking care of the kids.
    It’s not ok to meet women for sex in a motel room when you’re supposed to be on a business trip.
    It’s not ok to accidentally send your wife a text meant for another woman when she’s tucking your young daughter into bed.
    It’s not ok to agree to marriage counseling, select the marriage counselor you want, and then refuse to follow the plan that’s been prescribed.
    It’s not ok to send sexts to other women when you’re supposed to be in marriage counseling.
    It’s not ok to cut your wife off from all the marital assets so she can’t buy clothing or food without your permission.
    It’s not ok to cancel your son’s baptism the weekend before when the whole family had already bought plane tickets to attend.
    It’s not ok to ban your children from getting baptized in the church they were raised in because you got excommunicated for adultery.
    It’s not ok to get yourself fired from your job that pays six figures just because your wife has decided to divorce you for adultery.
    It’s not ok to pretend to want to give your marriage one more chance, convince your wife to sign papers to dismiss the divorce she filed, send her to another state to look for jobs, and then file for divorce as soon as she is offered a job and come home.
    It’s not ok to try to swindle your wife out of her half of the marital home.
    It’s not ok to be unemployed for over two years and fail to pay child support, then demand full custody of the kids and child support.
    It’s not ok to stalk the leader of my local church, and threaten to sue him if he baptizes our child or reveals the content of your threatening letter.

    Whew, thanks CL! That was therapeutic!

  • It’s NOT OK that the husband of the OW you were F***ING committed suicide and was nearly successful!
    It’s NOT OK to tell me that I should go kill myself.

  • Don’t give up on physical intimacy, fellow chumps.

    My gynecologist offered me hormone replacement therapy four years ago, when I was 54. I explained to him that my STBX was experiencing a total lack of drive due to blood pressure meds and anti-depressants, so I didn’t think it would be wise for me to poke that particular bear, but instead would allow nature to take its course.

    Imagine my delight at discovering shortly after my appointment that STBX had absolutely no problem achieving erections and orgasms with his numerous video chat girls. The bear I wasn’t willing to poke went into a very long hibernation then, mostly because of my resulting feelings of depression and unattractiveness. For a long time after D-Day, I was pretty much resigned to the fact that I would finish out my life alone; I believed that I could not compete with women who were in their 20’s – the preferred age range of the 50-year-old STBX.

    One day I woke up and realized I didn’t have to. I finally got my 25-year problem out of the house and set about making myself the best me I could be. I gave myself gifts. I gave myself space. I spent a lot of time working out the lies I had believed and the disregard I had internalized. It wasn’t easy, but over time I came to understand that I deserved the best life I could make for myself, in whatever configuration it came. I formed my intent, asked the Universe/God for assistance, and worked my ass off.

    Today I’m 58 years old, 60 lbs.lighter than I was at D-Day, and happier than I can remember being in years. Don’t think for one minute that there are no decent, like-minded, age-appropriate men out there! Happiness and self-confidence go a long way toward increasing the chances of them finding us. Our lights were hidden under bushels for years, but now it’s time to allow them to shine.

    • WiserToday, what FMT said! It is amazing how attractive we are when we lose that Cheater!

    • I admit that even after a year of pick-me-dance for a cheater, there is room for improvement.
      Once the cheater is gone for good,
      …the stress and sorrow are alleviated, and this shows on the face: less wrinkles, relaxed expression, sincere smile
      …the posture gets better, because a heavy weight is lifted from our shoulders
      …our libido is not hampered by fear and anger any more, and attractiveness resumes
      …we don’t have to cook what the cheater wanted to eat, we lose weight effortlessly and save money
      …we have plenty of free time to do things we like and this transforms us in a good way

    • Well said, Wiser. I truly believe there are a lot of genuine, single, probably lonely men out there. I found a 55 yr old, when I went to do a volunteer opportunity, just because I wanted to do something to give back. Then, unexpectedly, I found someone interesting. They are out there, and maybe thinking that there are no ‘real’ good women left ( I have heard men say things like that). My X always put me down, and I mostly believed him! Now I am finding myself all over again, and a certain age of guy really thinks I’m cool. Go figure!

  • I am truly shaken by what I read here that folks have been thru – its so much, so overwhelming. I have my share too, but reading this really made me reach for some positives:
    It’s OK for me to want to be on my own, to take care of myself, to value myself above his insatiable needs.
    It’s OK for me to be angry and unforgiving. What he did is wrong and always will be wrong.
    It’s OK for me to be sad and lonely, right now anyway. I’m grateful I have the capacity to grieve the loss of my marriage, when he threw it away for so little.
    It’s OK for me to tell people, including our son, what he did. It’s the truth and I am done being ashamed for him.
    It’s OK for me to want more, want better, than what I settled for, for so long. I am growing and adapting and realizing my true self.
    It’s OK to for me to regret my mistakes and own my shit. There’s zero false equivalency in that.
    I’ll be OK

    • arlo, thanks for what you said. I echo your feeling of being totally shaken, which makes it tough to respond. Reading through these posts, I found myself wanting to click on each one and respond in total outrage. It really does defy comprehension.

      Yet, as you said, we must find the positives. They are there. Everything you said resonated so deeply for me.

  • It’s not ok to:
    -Tell me you won’t cheat again then cheat again and again.
    -Tell your slut girlfriend how you haven’t loved me in years and your marriage has been over for a long time but not talk to me about those things.
    -Tell me all about your AP, how smart and wonderful she is. What a rough life she has had, abusive boyfriends, her kids dad is a pimp/drug dealer and how she has turned her life around. That she has 14 tattoos and 24 piercings, she is 28 (he is 43) and she makes him happier than he has ever been.
    -Go on family outings and text your slut the whole time.
    -Sit next to me at home, watching a movie, and spend the entire time on your laptop chatting with your AP.
    -Spend more time with AP’s kid than you do with your own children.
    -Tell me the affair just happened, you didn’t mean to hurt me or fall in love with someone else, when I know you pursued her, did special things for her at work and for her birthday, went to her house after work and did everything you could to get in her pants.
    -For you to leave your correspondence with your slut up on your laptop where any of your children could have read about your new true love and your super awesome sex life (thankfully I found it instead of the kids).
    -For you to send the kids and me to your parents house so you can spend the whole weekend screwing AP.
    -For you to tell all your AP’s how wonderful, special, beautiful and smart they are and how much you love them but never tell me those things (he has never told me I was beautiful or special and when he cheated on me two years ago with a different AP he stopped telling me that he loved me).
    -To constantly tell me I don’t like sex, because I don’t want it every day and twice on Saturday, and that I am boring until I start to believe those things are true.
    I could go on and on but I will stop there. I will add, it’s not ok that I put up with all this crap as long as I did.

    • I will add, it’s not ok for me to be your plan b when things go bad with your latest “true love.”
      Writing out this list does make me feel better. All the posts about never dating again strike a chord as well. I am 40 years old with four kids, the youngest is 3, and I don’t feel that I will ever date again. I don’t feel I can trust a man again and it seems most men age prefer much younger women without so many children.

  • It’s not OK for me to wonder who the father is when you take a pregnancy test.

    It’s not OK to my penis in you on the same time another penis was there.

    It’s not OK to destroy not only your family, but another family as well.

    It’s not OK to blame the AP for the affair.

    It’s not OK to make spiritual pacts with another man but not your husband.

    It’s not OK to use my money to buy lingerie for your affair.

    It’s not OK to have a secret skype account.

    It’s not OK to disrespect my role as provider.

    It’s not OK to be a SAHM when the kids are in daycare/school.

    It’s not OK to bring a puppy home, then have me take care of it.

    It’s not OK to shower me with contempt if I say we can’t afford a vacation to France.

    It’s not OK to shower me with contempt if I say we can’t afford a BMW, let’s get a Honda instead (after many weeks of anger and pressure, I caved and got the BMW.)

    It’s not OK to have a nervous breakdown when your AP doesn’t actually marry you.

    It’s not OK to say I ruined your day when I said I wanted to have sex with you.

    It’s not OK to use the suicide card.

    It’s not OK to neglect your children because the affair partner has broken your heart leaving you a pathetic worthless pile of drama for over a year.

    It’s not OK to lead a secret second life with a secret phone, a secret email account, secret meeting places.

    It’s not OK to meet up with another man when you are out of town for work.

    It’s not OK to say you strayed because I wasn’t meeting your needs when I was 100% dedicated to meeting your needs.

    It’s not OK to tell me that if I want sex so much then to go have an affair.

    It’s not OK to sexually reject me day after day, week after week, then ask “don’t you still find me attractive.”

    It’s not OK to always act burdened and inconvenienced on the rare occasion I go out with a friend leaving the you with the kids.

    It’s not OK to use psychological mind tricks to manipulate me into your ulterior motive du jour.

    It’s not OK to be an OW to your AP’s wife.

    It’s not OK to use me as a prop on the stage of your life to show others how wonderful your life is.

    It’s not OK to treat others far better than you treat me.

    It’s not OK to put your hand on my thigh and say “I love my husband” only when friends are around and the minute they leave, withdraw from me.

    It’s not OK to gamble your marriage in hopes of upgrading while keeping me around as a plan B in case the gamble doesn’t work out.

    It’s not OK to feel proud that you had enough courage to fall in love with another man.

    It’s not OK that your think you are the victim in all of this.

    It’s not OK to invite the OM’s family to stay with us.

    It’s not OK to forward sexy pics I take of you to the OM.

    • Sorry for you Buddy. Many of those are familiar – happened to me too. Hard to believe someone could be so self-centered.

  • Hmm….

    I think the walking far ahead of you–that’s a big, common red flag.

    I missed it, too.

  • Thank you TheLadyisaChump and Drew. I really appreciate your comments. Well, today was my 1st therapy session and I feel so much better already. After much discussion the one thing that my therapist said to me that resonated was, the anger I am holding onto is like drinking poison and hoping that my ex husband will die. I get it. I know it will get better now with more sessions. Without CL and CN I would have been totally lost. The people on this site are worth their collective weight in gold, sincerely. 🙂

  • It’s not ok to leave me bed ridden with flu to go comfort your AP when he finds out his wife is cheating on him (oh the irony)!
    It’s not ok for you to take money out of my wallet to pay for the hotel room and take my rum for the above comforting of the AP either
    It’s not ok to convince me to go away for the weekend so you can have a “girl’s weekend” so the AP can come stay with you at our house…
    It’s not ok to walk around telling everyone at work (we’re both Air Force) I have PTSD from serving in Afghanistan to avoid telling them the real reason I’m depressed is you abused me for years and cheated on me
    It’s not ok to tell me “I thought we broke up” when I deployed (must have missed that conversation) so you can claim you didn’t think you were cheating (and the cheating before and after the deployment – oh yeah that little detail…)
    It’s not ok to not send me one single care package for a 6 month deployment because you’re “too busy” – no doubt with the AP
    It’s not ok to blame it all on my next door neighbour for dobbing you in
    It’s not ok to post on various on line prayer forums praying for your love for the AP to be real
    It’s not ok to post on men’s help forums to find out how to help your AP through the tough time of his divorce after he found out his wife was cheating on him also….
    It’s not ok to use me to on sell your AP’s furniture that you bought off him when he posted out of area while I was deployed (not that I knew he was your AP at the time)
    It’s not ok to insist on going on a deployment straight after D-Day when I was falling apart and threatening me that if I didn’t let you go we were through
    It’s not ok to forbid me from telling anyone about what happened to preserve your image at the expense of me getting support
    It’s not ok to neglect me, tell me you’re too busy, too stressed, too everything but have all the time in the world for the AP
    It’s not ok to get me to keep you afloat at work because you’re too stressed (because you’re incompetent) while cheating on me
    It’s not ok not spend the last night before I deployed to a warzone with me and spend it with the AP
    It’s not ok to tell me that the fact I’m feeling suicidal because of what you did is offensive to you and for me to go away and stop bothering you
    It’s not ok to expect me to feel sorry for you for being used and dumped by the AP
    It’s not ok for you to spend our “reconciliation” time either trying to get back together with or plotting revenge against the AP
    It’s not ok that I kicked you out and then you rented the house right behind me so “we could be friends”
    It’s not ok that you use said house behind me and you access to personnel systems at work to stalk me
    It’s not ok not to show up at the airport to welcome me back from a deployment to a war zone cause “you’re too busy”
    It’s not ok to tell me what I did on deployment wasn’t dangerous but be so worried for your friend who is doing the same job over there…
    It’s not ok to not come to the vet with me when my German Shepherd had to be put down with cancer “cause it would upset you too much”
    It’s not ok not to comfort me when I got home from the vet from losing said dog “cause it would upset you too much”
    It’s not ok to then ask me to go fix dinner…
    It’s not ok to blame what happened on your crappy past life and blame me for contributing to it.
    It’s not ok to constantly invalidate my emotions
    It’s not ok to constantly lie to me and yourself
    It’s not ok to abuse my good nature with your selfish actions
    It’s not ok to ensure all your emotional needs are met while all of mine go begging
    It’s not ok to spend our couple’s counselling speaking about your issues and trying to turn what happened on me
    It’s not ok to refuse to cut off contact with the AP cause it would be too humiliating for you
    It’s not ok to scream at me about the violation of your privacy when I find out you’re cheating again
    It’s not ok to leave me with a back injury unable to get out of bed and needing your help to piss while you go out for a 6 hour lunch…

    I think you get the picture…

    • Nice list Wat700. I can relate to far too many of them.

      I still can’t believe how someone can appear to be normal in certain environments can then be so destructive and selfish. They seem to think that they are free to do ANYTHING, as long as you don’t find out, and as long as you don’t find out, it is OK, because then it didn’t really happen (even though it really DID happen).

  • Posting on behalf of a (male) friend of my husband’s who just discovered his chumphood. DH and I have directed him here, but he’s not ready to post yet.

    -It’s not OK to spend every spare second away from your kids and husband to do cross fit – even sending said husband and kids out on what were supposed to be “Family Fun Days” without you so you can squeeze in an extra class. And then when husband asks you to spend less time at the gym and more time with family, claim that you’re only doing it to be attractive for him. (When what you’re actually doing is flirting with other men and meeting “new workout buddies.”)

    – It’s not OK to use “Well, you play poker (one night a month, in the family’s garage, where the kids frequently come out to “help” with the guys’ cards) with your friends” as a justification for being out every weekend night bar-hopping with your friends, filling your phone contact list with the numbers of “new friends.”

    -It’s not OK to expect your friend (who also happens to be married to your husband’s friend) to stay silent while you flirt and collect numbers at the gym and on “girls’ nights.”

    -It’s not OK to pitch a tantrum when your husband asks why you’re on your phone texting all of the time, and why your phone is suddenly in your pocket at all times, even in the bathroom.

    -It’s not OK to tell your husband and kids that they’re not allowed to call you when you’re out of town on “girl’s weekends.”

    -It’s not OK to make major financial decisions, like quitting your job, without telling your husband until after you’ve already quit.

    -It’s not OK to spend no time with your family, and then do these involved “perfect, painstakingly posed family photo” crafts from Pinterest and post the results on Facebook to show what a devoted, crafty mom you are.

    -It’s not OK to ask your lawyer to draft a brutal divorce document denying the chump any custody and demanding huge alimony and child support payments, the house, the savings, the car, the furniture the chump had before marrying you. And the dog. And then when chump refuses to sign the document right away, showing it to his lawyer to come up with a counteroffer, say, “I don’t understand what’s holding you up. JUST SIGN IT.” Like you have the right to all of the stuff and he should just shut up and sign it away.

    -It’s not OK to make yourself out as the poor put upon victim who was FORCED to cheat because you were just so unhappy with the chump who expected you to spend time at home on occasion with your husband and children.

  • It’s not okay that when your sex drive got so low, you kept telling me I was beautiful and kept being affectionate with me but couldn’t ever talk about it, then when you left me for your affair told me that you just weren’t attracted to me and never had been.

  • It is not fucking OK. It is not ok that I gave up my career to give a grueling infertility journey one last chance; and that after heartbreaking losses and failures, I was blessed with a perfectly amazing daughter, to whom I have been a devoted SAHM for the last 7 years. No, it is NOT fucking ok that my husband, whom I trusted with my life & my future walked out 11 months ago, has a 29 year old GF, and now, at nearly 45 years old, I find myself left to pick up the pieces, go back to work, and start over, devastated and terrified.

  • in reply to Veteran Chump who was sent involuntarily for a psychiatric evaluation for suicidality in full view of the child, the schmoopie, and all neighbors who cared to watch the show: the same thing happened to me, as part of my exhole collecting dramatic scenes supposedly proving what a nutjob loser wife I was to justify his screwing the ho-worker. I dutifully sat through the evaluation with the hospital social worker whom I knew quite well, and the psychiatry resident who was new to the service. Then there was some confusion, as it seemed the call rotation for the psychiatrist hadn’t yet been posted for the month, so the social worker decided to just call the pager number and hope whoever answered wasn’t one of the ‘cranky’ ones.
    Imagine everyone’s surprise in the room when the pager on my jeans went off: yes, I was the freakin’ psychiatrist on call, I would sign off on the decision the two evaluators, along with the police officers and the ambulance drivers had already made. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my mental health, I was merely married to a manipulative asshole. One of the cops even offered me a ride home to make sure my ex would leave the house quietly as he no longer had any right to be there per our separation agreement, and he wanted to be sure our daughter was OK.

    • Your description of the scene at the psych ward with your pager going off is one of the best things I’ve ever read on here. You rock!

  • Aegis, you had me at No. 1,, “It is not okay to know my husband’s “type” of woman (who isn’t me).” X wasn’t my type either, but I had sense enough not to voice it. As for the rest, A+.

  • It’s not okay to sleep with your lover 27yrs younger than you (and my kids babysitter) across the hall from me and the kids saying that you need to be in her bed so she can sleep through the night after her seizures and then blame me that I made you do it because I didn’t like you waking me up every 2 hours to check on her. It’s not okay to lay in our bed and text her when you wake up and go to sleep every day that you love her because she doesn’t have anyone telling her that they love her. It’s not okay to tell your daughter that you’ve become good friends and lie to her face when she asked you if you’ve had sex with her even though you had admitted it to me months ago. Now you’ve made my daughter hate me for getting a restraining order against you bringing your lover into the house and my daughter thinks I’m a bitch for keeping her needy friend out of the house. It’s not okay to sleep in a hotel room 4 nights a week with your 22 yr old lover and our 16 yr old daughter in the same room. Damn, don’t know if i’ll ever get to meh!

  • Best. Not. Ok. List. Ever. It is exactly my ex and I. . .so eerily so that I am thinking my ex — who now identifies as gay — married you after leaving (after my not ok begging him to leave). He was always really good at the double life thing, so who knows,. . .

  • “It is not okay to ever treat me like I am not worthy of love and respect.”

    This x 100,000

  • First and foremost, it’s not okay to have sex with someone else who is married while you’re married, even if you “connect with her,” even if you’ve been unhappy, even if you’re no longer in love with me;

    It’s not okay to not tell me you’re no longer in love with me until after you’ve been caught sleeping with someone else. You should’ve started that discussion BEFORE.

    It’s not okay to not try at all to save a 23 year marriage for the sake of the marriage and our family;

    It’s not okay to lie at work about the situation to keep you and her out of trouble;

    It’s not okay to lie, period.

    It’s not okay to be mean and annoyed with your wife of two decades, while being nice and loving with her;

    It’s not okay to tell the our adult children this happened because “we” grew apart. Own it, you asshole.

    It’s just NOT OKAY! I want him to know that. I want his family to know that. I want the whole world to realize this is not just another divorce. IT’S NOT OKAY, the way he did this, and he shouldn’t be left off the hook.

    • 2kids2love—I want to shout your post from the rooftops!!! This, too, is my reality…and it’s NOT f-ing OK!!!!!!!

    • Yes, yes, yes! I agree with all of these! Your ex sounds just like my STBX, he said all those things to me. Why can’t these cheaters stop being cowards and talk to their partners about their problems instead of telling some stranger all their marital woes, screwing them and “falling in love!” And why do these AP’s think it’s ok to screw married people? Just because they say the marriage is over doesn’t mean it really is, they just use that to excuse their behavior! And the “it just happened, we didn’t mean to fall in love, and the affair is ok because we really love each other” excuses really piss me off too! (My STBX gave me those lines too) Sorry for my rant, sometimes it feels good to vent!

  • This should be mounted on a billboard in every town or printed on pamphlets and handed out.

  • It’s not okay that I had to have a hysterectomy to prevent cervical cancer at age 31 after contracting hpv despite being a virgin when I met my ex.

    It’s not okay that I was a doormat.

    It’s not okay that I have struggled with believing my ex when he told me I was NOT normal.

    It’s not okay that he told me sex with the final other woman was so much better.

    It’s not okay that he spent years on a swinger website.

    It’s not okay that he was so persistent in asking me out and having to date me and then acting like he was so unlucky to be stuck with me.

    It’s not okay that I’ve spent a long time wondering what I would have to do to not be cheated on, only to be foggy on the answers.

  • It is not okay to mooch, sponge, leech, beg off of friends, family instead of getting off your sorry ass and getting a real job.

    It is not okay to get a job, then not split living costs with wife living in the same house. It is not okay to make your wife pay for ALL housing, utility costs.

    It is not okay to spend your paychecks on your selfish desires, needs instead of spending it on your child and family.

    It is not okay ruining ever single special occasion, or holiday because it’s not “awesome” enough for you or you yet AGAIN didn’t have a job or the money to buy anything for said occasion, but then on your birthday, Christmas, etc. expect me and your family to lavish gifts on you.

    It is not okay to plan on leaving your wife of over 10 years because she got sick/depressed/medical crisis and couldn’t deal.

    It is not okay to get a good-paying job making more than your wife and then leave instead of contributing to the household.

    It is not okay to block your wife from your Facebook page, then get mad when your wife is friends with people you don’t like on Facebook.

    It is not okay to ask your wife to hook-up with random strangers to please his sick sexual desires.

    It is not okay to pimp your wife out to a friend going through a divorce to “help a brother out”.

    It is not okay to neglect/ignore your child because she isn’t “normal”.

    It is not okay to lie, cheat, and steal from your wife that did nothing but support your sorry ass.

    It is not okay to say you would reimburse your wife then refuse when push comes to shove.

    It is not okay to ask your wife— after you leave— for sex.

    It is not okay to treat the one person on this planet that loved you no matter what like shit.

    • Now, save this post, keep it close at hand so you never, ever let him take advantage of you again. You are strong, mighty and deserve to be treated with respect! ! I have been through many of your “not okays” and more for 3 effing decades!! Thank the heavens I have finally am on the path to lead a positive and fulfilling life. Now set your path and be free:-)

  • It is NOT OK for you to insult me, pull my hair and demand sex or “take it”. It is NOT OK for you to tell your ex that you love her, “really love her”. It is NOT OK!

  • It’s not ok for the OW to have rules for your husband, but you are “just like all the other women” if you want rules to keep yourself safe. (He actually told me the OW had rules for him!!)

    It’s not ok to bring OW into our home to see the remodeling he did after I specifically said I did not want her in my home.

    It is not ok to bring home gifts from OW for our newborn children. It doesn’t matter if you are “just friends” now and no longer intimate.

    It is not ok to troll Craigslist Casual Encounters soliciting blow jobs while you are at work just because you are bored. It is even less ok to do this, and then let our 2 year old son play with your iPad where he accessed your emails and brought it to Mommy because it was “broken”. Thank heavens there were no pictures!!!

    How much can I list here??

    Oh my, this is rather therapeutic.

  • It is NOT okay to tell me to suck it up when I need ________ (to eat, sleep, not go out, etc.)

    It is NOT okay to roll your eyes at me after I say something (especially when it’s in front of the kids (IFOTK) and just conversation).

    It is NOT okay to not ask how I’m doing on Father’s Day when I am grieving my dad.

    It is NOT okay to not give any response at all to me and walk away after I tell you about my day.

    It is NOT okay to not acknowledge Mother’s Day, valentines day, etc just because you don’t think they are important.

    It is NOT okay to never thank me for the things I do for my stepsons (your boys).

    It is NOT okay to expect me to do whatever you want and whenever you want me to for your boys and then get pissed and tell me how selfish I am when I say no.

    It is NOT okay to make fun of my family members in front of your family and friends.

    It is NOT okay to use your work/business/stress/hard labor as an excuse for all the things/people you neglect.

    It is NOT okay to respond with: “you’re being so dramatic” or “you never used to be so sensitive.”

    It is NOT okay to tell me in disgust: “Oh, stop” when I have an issue with something.

    It is NOT okay to resent me for being concerned about the kids.

    It is NOT okay to tell me it was my idea to have another kid and that we shouldn’t have.

    It is NOT okay to tell me that I should have never been a mother.

    It is NOT okay to stop all parenting whenever you are tired or stressed or at your parents’ house, or want to do something else.

    It is NOT okay to be angry when I am not home when you wart me to be.

    It is NOT okay to tell me no one would ever want to be with me.

    It is NOT okay to tell me I always and never ________. (Whatever the “wrong thing” is)

    It is NOT okay to tell me you “will be right down” to bed and then sleep on the couch almost every night.

    It is NOT okay to use me as your secretary, housekeeper, childcare provider, shopper, etc when we both work full time

    It is NOT okay to refuse to clean any bathrooms in the house because they “aren’t dirty.”

    It is NOT okay to compare me negatively to your ex at a dinner with your brothers family and parents.

    It is NOT okay to repeatedly tell me that I’m being ridiculous.

    It is NOT okay to suggest criminal activity (jokingly of course- why am I so lame) in front of the children.

    It is NOT okay to announce in the car, in front of the kids that my friends dog looks like a rat and should be taken out back and shot.

    It is NOT okay to discuss in front of your family the land we will inherit from my side.. And then rudely note that we have to wait til my old lady croaks. (And I’ve already lost my dad).

    It is NOT okay to call your sons’ interests and ideas dumb or stupid or garbage.

    It is NOT okay to allow your sons (my stepsons) to verbally disrespect me and passively gaslight me.

    It is NOT okay to tell me to relax or that I’m being an ass after you’ve been rude to me.

    It is NOT okay to follow every apology with blaming me.

    It is NOT okay to tell your kids yes to something after you all heard me say no.

    It is NOT okay to never comment on any text or leave any voicemails I send unless you need or want something.

    It is NOT okay to order take out for you and the kids and not ask me/order me anything

    It is NOT okay to repeatedly tell me you will “give” me money from your account to help pay my student loan, but then put me off for months and then complain that the bill is so high and why haven’t I paid it.

    It is NOT okay to hardly EVER show any interest in my work.

    It is NOT okay to not thank me for cooking dinner and not help clean up and lay on the couch.

    It is NOT okay to expect me to bathe and put our son to bed almost every night. (Good thing i don’t mind but equality and choice would be nice)

    It is NOT okay to act as if the kids are inconveniences.

    It is NOT okay to want your kids to be just like you and reject them when they are not.

    It is NOT okay to allow your kids to watch mature-rated shows at ages 5, 10, 12.

  • I would say:

    It’s not OK for:

    Tracy Schorn to decide she wants to divorce her first husband because he’s mentally ill and; conveniently fly off to Europe and have sex with “an old friend” and claim it’s not an adultery, because, you know, she was already divorced from husband #1 in her mind.

    Tracy to file a modification of custody petition seeking to relocate her children away from her first betrayed husband so she could move to rural Pennsylvania with some doofus husband #2 that she barely even knew who, it turns out was cheating on her the entire time they were dating and then married.

    Tracy to marry some doofus because, hey, he’s a lawyer.

    To claim chump hood when husband #2 inevitably cheats on her when that is what happens to way wards in marriage #2 every time. Them the consequences of adultery.

    Tracy to start a website and take on the persona of a betrayed spouse when she “champed” her first husband.

    Tracy to claim adulterers are beyond redemption and reconciliation never happens while giving herself an out for her own wayward adulterous behavior.

    Tracy to write a book including a chapter about reconciliation yet rip on the reconciliation industry that she is now a part of.

    Tracy to give anyone marriage advice after failing twice at marriage.

    I’m a retired former left behind husband living the life of riley with my lovely 1st and only wife in Florida. We are recovered for over 20 years. We also have numerous friends that, when you happen to discuss things openly, we’ve discovered have faced and overcame infidelity in their marriages. It’s traumatic and soul crushing when it happens but, we believe MOST “cheaters” are redeemable. I’m sorry for those I’ve read on here the last few weeks who have experienced betrayal from some awful sinister seemingly mentally ill persons but I hope you realize that your cases appear to be the exception rather than the rule (no matter how good it feels to vent and direct your anger along with Tracy towards ALL ‘cheaters.

    I also actually knew Tracy’s father, a respectable Methodist minister from my days back in Southfield, Michigan. I would think he would be embarrassed if he knew about this false ministry of hopelessness, despair and martyrdom. Keep an eye out for my blog. Once I’m done with it, I’ll take it public.

    • Dbag, I usually delete trolls. But I’m leaving your vitriol up, lest anyone think I’ve got something to hide.

      As for my FATHER, whom you claim to know, you must not know him very well, because he’s a huge fan of the blog. And was the very first person I told about my ex’s cheating to say the marriage was not savable BECAUSE of his experiences in pastoral counseling. Oh no, the reconciliation was all on me, against the advice of my Methodist minister father.

      As you seem pro-reconciliation and know all about infidelity, if you do know him, I’d guess you’re one of the Sinister Ministers he’s had fired for cheating with parishioners. (And not the “left behind” spouse.)

      Now to your other creepy claims. You seem to know a lot about me based on an acquaintanceship you had with my father over 30 years ago. Including my purported sex life OVERSEAS? Wow. Been keeping a close eye on me, huh?

      That detail could be gleaned here where I discuss the dissolution of my first marriage.

      Yep, I absolutely had sex while separated from my first husband. In a state that requires physical separation of a year and one day before you can even file.

      “Divorced” in my mind? No, divorced openly and with dramatic pronouncement. To him. To the lawyer that drew up the separation papers. And divorced to every family member to whom I wrote a “We’re getting divorced” letter to before I left overseas.

      Cheating is about cake. Having both. It’s not about leaving someone, however unhappy they may be about that fact.

      And lest someone think it’s an exit affair — you have to have the affair **first** (cake) before you exit. I initiated divorce, exited, announced it, and then went overseas.

      If you think people are cheaters because they date while separated — well, then, by that definition, yep, I’m a cheater. And so is my husband. Because I met him 10 days before his divorce was final.

      As to your other claims? Everyone here is “exceptional”? Wow. All 6 million of them.

      Best of luck with your blog, d-bag.

      • So never going to read his blog. I hope he’s not a minister, because he sounds like he would tell the vast majority of chumps to stay and keep trying and do it as a service unto the Lord, which will be repaid…someday, but maybe not until you get to heaven. Meanwhile, keep meeting all of cheater’s needs, even as s/he continues to expose you to STDs, uses marital assets on the AP, ignores the family, and refuses to change…practically the definition of martyrdom in my opinion. The first true hope I had was when I read a book saying that it was not what God wanted to stay and be abused this way, and that cheaters should be confronted, and that you should LEAVE if your spouse refused to repent, because to do otherwise is to enable them in their sin. Maybe “most” cheaters can be redeemed, but I think that most of the people who find their way here were married to the ones who are total nightmares who can’t, or selfish people who just choose not to, because they’ve been deceived into thinking that they deserve something so much better, and don’t really care about their families anyway.

        It looks like he tried to paint you as a hypocrite with the bit about your first husband, but all I’ve heard you say, over and over again, is that you have to make your unhappiness known, and actually file for divorce before you try to move on. Anyone may have their own beliefs about what is allowed at that point, and I don’t know if he gets that not everyone is a conservative Christian. But that part about moving away from your first husband? Guess he hasn’t read about all the times that ex left him with someone else and didn’t even use his visitation–so what difference did it really make? I guess if you hadn’t moved you would’ve saved money on airfare, and MAYBE he would’ve just not shown up for visitation, or you could’ve picked your son up from where he got dumped. Not a huge difference in results.

        But saying the reason you married your current husband is just because he’s a lawyer is incredibly stupid.

        I don’t think this is a false ministry of hopelessness, despair, and martyrdom–that’s what my marriage became when I tried reconciliation. I think it’s a place to find consolation when you’ve given it everything you’ve got, but your spouse won’t change, a place to realize that when you just trust that your spouse sucks, and maybe always will, and go no contact, you can see reality and realize you deserve better treatment, and can start to love yourself again.

      • See it was all those reconciliation blogs and books that kept me stuck, for decades. They kept me hoping, and took my money! Turns out after years of reconciliation I discovered Tiger Woods style infeidelity. This chump believed in trying again. Will he ever do this grand betrayal again, was it a midlife crisis? I dont know, but it is a crisis for me now. I am all alone, states away from family and friends raising a household of children. Supporting everyone financially and emotionally. I get up every morning since the huge Dday and cry…years have past and the pain is still there, I cry through my morning rituals and show up to work everyday, slap a smile on and fake my miserable life. I am happy for those who reconcile. That is amazing. I cant . Too many simple promises havent been honored, so I have little faith the big promises will be honored.

        Mr Dbag leave all of us on CL alone. You ruined my day, made me feel like I am even more of a fool getting support on an internet blog. Again, I have no one to talk to, I have no money for therapy, I barely have enough money for used clothes for my children. I am very good with money, I am educated and have a very good job. But my stbx has destroyed all of the finances.

        Mr Dbag if you ever unfortunately live this life of deep hearted loss, debilitating fear, silent depression, sleepless nights, chronic anxiety, the loss of dignity, shame of being single in a judging society, and have to figure out a way to explain to your children why the family is falling apart- — then join this blog. Otherwise go away!!!

        Members of CL thank you for sharing your lives – you truly are my life line right now. Best wishes!:-)

    • Oooooh, dbag, can’t wait for your blog!! (NOT).

      If you really are a reconciled chump, and are happy, more power to you. However….here is why I think you were a cheater:
      1-You come here to cast aspersions on an honest person who has sought to help millions with her blog, while most years it has COST her to do so.
      2-You alter the facts (about Tracy meeting an old boyfriend in the UK) to support your argument, which is a typical move for manipulative, narcissistic people.
      3-You assume Tracy’s father thinks JUST like you. Redux–mark of a narcissist.

      4-Your whole tone is judgmental and lacks compassion or empathy, on a blog where people are OPENLY suffering from the worst betrayal of their lives (lacking empathy–MAJOR trait of a narcissist). Not all of our stories are “abnormal.” My X is a world-renowned academic with a very high level of success in multiple areas, which is why he escaped detection as a serial cheater for at least 8-9 years.

      So piss off and hang out with your cheater-apologist friends, who supply you with validation for your assholeness.

    • D-bag, Chump Lady’s “doofus lawyer” husband here. A few points:

      1. Fuck you, a*shole;
      2. You don’t know what you’re talking about, either dishonest or stupid or both;
      3. You know nothing about healthy relationships and will die never having known true love;
      4. Stop harassing my wife as she tries to help the victims of infidelity or you will see what “doofus lawyer” powers can do;
      5. Stop harassing the victims of infidelity or karma will eat your arrogant ass in one bite and spit out only the bitter old bones (You still have gators down there in Florida, don’t you?); and, oh yeah,
      6. Fuck you, as*hole.

    • “False ministry of hopelessness, despair and martyrdom”? Try restored faith, encouragement and empowerment.

      dbag, I don’t know what your agenda is in coming here, and frankly I don’t care. Good luck with your blog, and I’m sure you’ll get as much traffic as you deserve.

      CL, if I didn’t already think you were da bomb, I certainly would now. Thank you for all you do for us here and for shining your precious light of hope and humour in a very dark place.

      • Spot on, FMT.

        “False ministry of hopelessness, despair and martyrdom”–damn if that doesn’t sound like my marriage (as well as all those reconciliation sites I heard about but never bothered to frequent). This site is more like a rocking’ New Years Party, IMHO. Where’s my lampshade?

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