Your “It’s Not Okay” List
The other day, a chump sent me this letter of her “It’s Not Okay” list. I thought this would be a useful exercise. What will you never do again? What are your deal breakers?
— Chump Lady
After two decades of loving my husband to the best of my ability and having our wonderful children, I have decided to leave. Even in the mess that is my marriage, I feel horrific sadness because, well, he’s not “all evil.” He has a genuinely good side to him. But that side is just not enough to make up for the damage he has wrought–nor is it enough for him to undergo the hard work of changing his character to prevent further destructively selfish behaviors.
Logic tells me I’m doing the right thing for me and my kids. Thus, I’m sticking with logic (I need my brain to guide me through is!). But, because of the sadness, moments of doubt crop up. When this happens, I refer to my “It’s not okay” list. It helps to keep me grounded in my logic.
You and your followers have been immensely helpful on my road to accepting reality for what it is. I’m not sure if it will be of use, but if so, I hope my list will inspire others in doubt to create their own “It’s not okay” list.
It is not okay to know my husband’s “type” of woman (who isn’t me).
It is not okay to have to say to him over the years: “How could you do ________ to me if you love me?”
It is not okay for him to blame me for his destructive choices.
It is not okay to disrespect me or our kids under any circumstances.
It is not okay that he acts single—effectively leading a double life—when he walks out the door.
It is not okay that he purposefully took me around his APs when I was oblivious to his affairs.
It is not okay that he flirted with other women in front of our children.
It is not okay that he has been verbally / emotionally abusive to me and our kids, whether it is sporadic or not.
It is not okay that he has lied about himself, his intentions, and his feelings throughout our whole marriage.
It is not okay that he bashed my successes.
It is not okay that he was irresponsible financially.
It is not okay that he used guilt as a weapon against me and our kids.
It is not okay that he holds a double-standard.
It is not okay that he blames me when life gets difficult.
It is not okay that he cries his eyes out—swearing he will change—every time he is caught doing something hurtful to me and our kids only to turn around and do the same thing again (whether 1 day later or 5 years later).
It is not okay that his apologies are followed by accusations.
It is not okay that he can coldly watch me nearly hyperventilate in tears.
It is not okay that he made me feel as if I had to choose between him and our children—and to feel like a horrible wife when I chose our children.
It is not okay that he expects to be pampered when ill, but he acts as it is an inconvenience when I (or our kids) are sick.
It is not okay that he acts like his family is a burden.
It is not okay that he refused to leave when I begged him to.
It is not okay that I begged.
It is not okay that I allowed myself to be a doormat.
It is not okay that I taught my kids (by implication) how to be a doormat.
It is not okay to hate myself.
It is not okay to blame myself for his voluntary, destructive actions.
It is not okay to overlook that I tried everything in my power to help him and our marriage.
It is not okay to allow myself to be disrespected and devalued.
It is not okay to give far more in a relationship than is returned.
Looking forward to meeting you at meh,
Aegis
It’s not okay that I had to tell my husband he couldn’t have a girlfriend.
It’s not okay that he continued to have a girlfriend anyway.
It’s not okay that I even had to say that in my marriage.
Greetings I am brand new to this forum. Wow, the “it’s not ok” postings mirror my life. I wish I had found this site 2 years ago! I was sucked into the reconciliation scam sites. I was so close to filing for divorce. …ah but I too read all the save your marriage books. And. I got sucked into his BS tears saying “oh please don’t tear this family apart”. Mmmmm now that I have woken up from this nightmare — it’s not okay for me to feel like a failure for not being able to reconcile with my cheating husband. And it’s not okay for me to feel like I am tearing the family apart. (He ripped it to shreds the first time he played mister single guy!) Thank you all for sharing. Your words have provided me tremendous stregnth 🙂
hfs that’s my list exactly
Ditto & amen.
But it is okay that I was able to decide that it was not okay.
I ended a 14 year marriage (18 yrs together) for mostly the same reasons.
I had been home with the kids for 10 years, I had no job skills and no prospects and no money (we were living in our $1,200.00 over draft for 2 years) but I could not live that way, or let my kids live that way anymore. I kicked him out. I got a crappy paying job but the hours let me be home with the kids when I needed to be. I scrimped and saved, I borrowed from family to get a lawyer and I ended that Hell hole that was my marriage.
A decade later, I am fully employed, have manageable debt (because someone else isn’t spending the money), rent a 3 bedroom home and am putting my oldest through university. It took sacrifice but my kids and I are worth it. I also lost 60 pound through sheer dedication to myself. I am worth being healthy and positive and not any of those things he ever accused/suggested I was. I am a smart, wonderful person…..without him.
You go, girl.
Loquacious- Its great to hear that you overcame all obstacles. I am currently where you started but I know I can get through this and in the end I will be ok,
This list….is A-OK FABULOUS!!! My soon to be ex did all of the above. And I let him. I read every self help…marriage help….Love Dare….5 languages of love books. He had younger women. I’m getting to meh… it’s taken 3 years….I’m getting there…..
Omg. I once had a poem type thing in my house that listed all the positives one should look for in life. I think I am going to print out the above and use it as a mantra.
It’s not okay to quit your job & take a job paying 1/3 of what you used to make before you PLANNED to ditch your family of 20 years at a very crucial time in your children’s lives so you don’t have to pay for them or look after them so you can go and diddle any whore who will have you. It’s not okay that you are an entitled loser who has used our family as a facade in order for you to appear “normal” while you have led a dual life.
It’s not okay to have lied and gas lighted your way through life. It’s not okay that you ignore every rule put in place & want to see the kids at YOUR sporadic convenience. Go get those fuckbuddies & leave us alone douchebag. Good riddance.
And how many of you think your X used you as a way to avoid commitment to his/her APs? It must have been so convenient to admit he was married to make sure none of his f*ckbuddies could demand anything from him. I wonder what he does now?
Probably tells them he’s still married.
Sara your words of not okay to use family as a facade to appear “normal” while leading a dual life is mine exactly too! That XPOS I was with did just that too! He brought me around all his business functions and what little family and friends he had so that he seemed normal. All the while fucking strippers and who knows what else.
I still have TONS of hate. Can’t let that hate go right now. I wish nothing but the worst for him. Sorry if it’s offensive to anyone. What he did to me has offended me.
Chiming in here, too. Using me and the kids as a prop for his family-man facade while he acted single outside the house (and many of our friends have told me something along the lines of “he made no attempt to hide his seductions” in front of them), still makes me very, very angry.
My therapist has said that if I maintain my anger, he wins, but (a) I don’t see any way for the anger to abate except the passage of time (a loooooong time), and (b) I think I’m starting to disagree with that claim. As long as I advance my life in a positive way without letting the anger destruct me, it seems like a natural response to what I, to what all of us, have been through.
Tempest, I agree with you. Anger is a healthy emotion and a normal response to bring abused. I say screw any therapist that tells you to let it go. The grieving process takes time and we are each on our own journey. It’s what we do with anger that makes it either healthy or not healthy. If you’re sitting and plotting his murder, that’s unhealthy. But if you’re using that anger to propel you into motion to build a better future, that’s healthy. Best I can tell from your posts, you rock!
Tempest, I have been working on the anger/forgiveness thing for 4 years it is really hard. Who wouldn’t be angry to find out your other was a liar and cheater? My ex left so much damage behind. I know it sound cliche but I keep reminding myself I got an amazing kid out of this and my ex will most likely end of alone or dying of an STD.
Ihavehate- take offense? Ha! I wish nothing but death and a lot of pain and sufferening for my stbx. I wish and pray for that for all fellow chumps. May all cheaters burn in hell. Lord hear my prayer.
I have to say that I frequently think that life would be easier if he just died. Then I feel just a little guilty because he has some suicidal tendencies (of course, he can’t admit that to his counselor or psychiatrist because that would make him defective). After I feel guilty, I tell myself, “NO – he brought this on himself. You don’t need to feel guilty if you want him permanently out of your life and that of your children.”
There are a few of us here whose cheaterHs did die and it took me about 3 months of grief before I realized that my life without him was so much better. I occasionally feel guilty about that, but if a person live thier life in a way that their death is a blessing then its on them. In all truth, if God had given me a choice which could have kept my deadH alive (for his kids and parents) and I could have still gotten away when I was ready, I would have picked it. I would have loved for him to see me marry a better man than him while he continued to stew (since that is all he knew to do in life).
Please don’t, however, tell widows that your pain is worse than theirs…I dont know how many are double losers (like me)and experienced both, but if they werent betrayed, they will never understand and will just think you are a jerk.
BePositive–He IS defective.
His suicidal tendencis are probably just another form of manipulation. I wouldn’t fall for it.
Good Point!
Thanks all for your encouraging words. I feel better. And I laughed out loud @ yours, LadyStrange!
IHaveHate,
No offense taken. It appears we are at the same place in the healing process. I welcome the day that meh takes the place of anger 🙂
IHavehate — no offense at all. Admittly i wish I had some hate -or anger to motivate my complacent ass! Time is a funny thing. You know how the divorce courts make you have a cooling off period before you are given a divorce. Well that was damaging for a person like me. My initial anger, which gave me stregnth dissipated, then the saddness set in, so cry, cry, cry I let him back into my life. I got sucked into all his BS apologies and BS promises. Wow-what a dumbass. I have wasted so much energy trying to fix this marriage. My number one reason for staying has been for my kids, so they would have a complete family. Seriously the only thing that is complete is breaking me down to a doormat and that isnt okay! Universe give me stregnth to swiftly get out of this hell!
Freefall–write down the history of your jackass’s indiscretions, lies, betrayals, etc.; realize whatever you know is only 10% of the story and !!get your anger back!! If I may be so bold, since my profession is related to family dynamics & children’s outcomes, children are better off in a divorced family under many circumstances. They do NOT thrive in (a) a household with a lot of conflict; or (b) watching one parent do very damaging things to the other. We can hope children learn from what we tell them, but the most powerful learning comes from modelling–think about whether you want your children to learn that bad treatment is acceptable.
hugs to you!
Thank you Tempest . Wow – I made my list and it is disgusting. How in the hell could he even say he ever loved me. Ugh. I worked on finalizing the divorce paperwork the rest of my evening. Feels unreal. Thanks again to all you brave chumps for posting here. Most of my friends and family are married and they dont understand this hell. And i live in a small town so I dont share much, dont want my kids to be drug into this mess beyond what they already have picked up on. By the way what is the common opinion on telling the children why I am divorcing their father? Ugh this all sucks!! Thanks for your input. 🙂
Tell in an age-appropriate way, Freefall. For example, “We are getting divorced because Daddy has a girlfriend, and you are not allowed to have girlfriends after you get married.” Or “When people get married they promise to only date each other and not have any more boyfriends or girlfriends. Daddy broke that promise, so we can’t be not married anymore.” No editorials (“Your father is an asshole! That skanky whore!”)
What children need to hear is (1) Actions have consequences, and (2) They can trust you to be their strong, sane, consistent, dependable parent. (Note it’s important to give a reason for the divorce precisely because it reassures them that you don’t just ‘fall out of love’ with people for no reason.)
Later, they will just want to know what will change for them and what won’t (e.g., reassurances they will be able to stay in the house or school, or if not reassurances you will help them stay in touch with their friends if they have to move.)
It is not OK to go see a woman in France when I begged you not to go.
It is not OK to guilt your daughter into not telling me about the other woman.
It is not OK to advise me that you are not sure what you want-stay or go.
It is not OK that I am an adult and you a spoiled arrogant child.
It is not OK that I am going to have to drag you across the finish line for the divorce.
Ditto to all the above, Aegis covered almost all of what I went through in my twenty year marriage. We could have been married to the same man, but mine was physically abusive too. So here is my input:
It is not okay to kick doors in on me when I am afraid of you and trying to get distance from your rage
It is not okay to attack the children as a way to get back at me
It is not okay to drive like a maniac so that passengers are afraid for their lives
It is not okay to scream and berate me when I am afraid of you or make fun of me when I am hurting
It is not okay to ever lay a hand on me or one the kids in anger, ever, period
It is not okay to ruin every family vacation with your rages
It is not okay to put me down in front of friends and family
It is not okay to ever treat me like I am not worthy of love and respect
All married to the same dirtbag, huh? We stopped going anywhere if flying monkey was going to drive. One of his favorites was to drive like a maniac, then get a cold attitude, and then slam on the brakes. I so wish I had found this site years ago – before the DD.. I took so many things as “normal” or “my fault” or “he is just so stressed.” Really, where was I during all that time?
Wow it seems there is nothing cheaters dont have in common. My husband drives the car so insanely when angry with me that i seriously worry we are going to die, and he says he doesn’t care! He actually destroyed one of our cars this way. He does the break slamming for emphasis too. They are all nuts!
Road rage and fast aggressive driving here too. Once he got 10 speeding fines in two weeks.
He was given to rage both in and out of the car, but his car rages were especially terrifying. We were captive to him and he endangered us and verbally abused us while he endangered us. There were times I seriously did not think I would get out of the car alive.
Ironically, the day I discovered his A…I had caught him red handed…when he returned to our home, he sat in a chair, took a deep breath, sat up straight, looked at me and said “I have never driven a car in a dangerous manner with you and the kids in it”. We needed to talk about his cheating that day, not his driving…the fact that he tried to divert my attention with such a stupid claim showed how freaking nuts he really was.
// , There is a method to their madness.
Flying monkey – LMAO! Oh, Glinda, you’re quoting from the chump playbook — my fault, poor guy is stressed. Where were we? I think we were all floating down DE NIAL. But we’re free now, yay!
Thanks for the giggle, Fifi! Mine never drove like a maniac on family trips. He would drive for 30 minutes and then tell me he needed to sleep. I drove the rest of the way whether it was a 60 minute trip or a 12 hour one.
I was not allowed to drive my own car. Many times I suggested I drive and he refused saying he “wasn’t a very good passenger.” Ironically after D-Day he complained one of the reasons he cheated was “all that chauffeuring around” he did “for me in my car.” WTF? He also had road rage a lot. Many times I would duck down, in the passenger seat, as he was maniacally passing another vehicle at a high speed, and then giving them a vulgar gesture just as we drove past. It was weird to see the P.I. videos later showing OW driving her car, and Asshole in the passenger seat.
TheMuse–it’s always Lose-Lose with these cheaters. Typical power play to keep us “wrong” so we keep trying, and wrong-footed so we never figure out the game rules.
Your list and my list are too similar! From the first to the last it’s the same. Mine died in 2010 but he left a legacy of turmoil and horror in his wake that still hangs like a fog. The children and I are still in therapy, still recalling things that we’d thought we forgot. Still finding out new and awful ways he chumped us. I have his ashes in the closet in a ziploc bag and I’m still thinking of new ways to get my revenge for the girls and i.
Just pitch them in the garbage. He belongs there.
Perfect answer!
Flush him.
Mix the ashes with 2 turds of shit 2 eggs a heaping teaspoon of baking powder 1 cup of flour 2 sticks of butter and 1 cup of sugar. Bake at 375 degrees for an hour. When the cake is done – feed it to his mother.
O…M…G…BIGGEST GIGGLE…EVER!
No anyone with a cesspool or an ag waste pond. Cannot think of a viler place for a viler person.
Have his ashes made into a diamond, then sell it to a pawn shop.
Best idea EVER
Mine isn’t dead but all of the above reflects where I’ve been, including the entire “no ok list.” I say put the sewage where it belongs. Best of luck to you and your family.
Not sure if you have to forgo all future relationships, so long as this time around, one does the proper vetting. I dated , sporadically, for 6 years, running into all types of cheating women in the process.
Then, when I stopped dating and realized I was very content alone, unexpectedly, I met my girl friend, Jane. She is unlike anyone I ever went out with, trustworthy and reciprocating etc.
For younger folks, though , it may be difficult to resign oneself to being alone and still happy, as their sex drives are overriding a lot of their thought processes, and that is natural.
I was close to 60 when I met my girlfriend and testosterone was not a major interfering factor in making a judgment to get involved.
I have , in the past, tried to talk to some of the young guys I know about refraining from a relationship if there are red flags, even if the woman is very hot, but it is pretty futile. They look at me like I am nuts.
I was lucky. I was old and less driven and just happened to me my girlfriend.
Thats because you’re an authentic human being, and you’re a guy who isn’t ruled by his penis – like a good proportion of men these days.
You value intelligence and personality over someone being ‘hot’
Those people will get burned in the end.
God my STBX is 56 and he sure as heck didn’t slow done at all, he was into porn, hookers a girlfriend (co-worker) and me! WTF? ugh
Could be genetics or Viagra. Most guys, by that age with testosterone having been depleting steadily for over 25 years, are experiencing a fair bit of ED.
I will tell you, in many ways, living with very little sex drive is a huge relief for me. I am not all influenced in my decisions by attraction/sex drive and can see things so much more clearly than I ever could.
slow down I meant lol
Arnold,
I’m in my late 40’s and I’m grateful that I lost a lot of my drive already. Having a good male friend who I share “agape” type love and some affection would be nice but I doubt it will happen. I think the fact I am officially past child bearing will factor into my desire to not have a romantic rlsp again.
ThisLadyisaChump,
I am 63 and I make a great loyal, trustworthy, honest, reliable and platonic friend. But having been replaced by a 23 year old makes me realise that my days will be lived out alone now and there will not be a significant other in my life again, not that there really was. When your 63 year old ex husband tells you that you are too old for him, you know the game is up. However, when people see his photo and then look at me, they say he has rocks in his head because he looks about 70 years old and I look in my mid 50s but that is still too old for the ex and I can only assume most males my age.
Maree, Good Women/Men of any age (ability, appearance, etc) have a lot to offer. What we all need to understand is that there is a REASON we are no longer with Crap. We weren’t meant to waste our best selves, our one precious life, or our great loving Chumpy hearts-and sexuality-on CRAP (Cheating, Revolting, Absent, Pricks/Pussies). So our job is to get busy LIVING. We have to. Our opportunity for a better life was thrown at us and we need to recognize the gift it is. Here’s what I know to do. Make myself happy. Do what I love. Get out there -and this is hard, I get that :)–and LIVE. Smile, or as the saying goes, “fake it till you make it!” Please don’t allow one big fat hairy lie (your ex’s) to be your truth; one is never “too old.” There is a*whole*beautiful*authentic*world* out there and I would hate to think our lives would never know love again. One story here is a great example, CL’s own. She met Her husband at a music festival, in New Orleans, doing something she enjoyed (and an interest they share). Like Arnold, I don’t think CL “was looking” either but she was definitely LIVING. CL, I am waiting for the new book as I am a huge fan. And love your blog. 🙂 Maree, Hugs, I am here cheering you on.
Kate5O, love that video. It says what so many of us need to hear about toxic people. We need to “cut them from our lives” or at least whittle down the time we spend with them. Thanks for posting. 🙂
Hi Drew & TheLadyisaChump. Thank you for your posts. I will prevail, that I know as I had my 1st therapy session yesterday and it made me realise that I should have done this sooner. Having said that, I feel better and more understanding of why I stayed so long and took so much and further sessions will help me understand my complacency and move on because as you know you don’t and can’t forget 46 years in a hurry. Now to work on never having it happen again and it won’t. The therapist did say that my ex husband has now sealed his own fate which I found interesting and that he has really done me a favour even if I can’t or don’t want see it at the moment. I am still very angry with the ex and I said I want that anger to go and the take away from the session is that anger is like drinking poison and hoping that the other person dies!! So I will be working on me for quite some time to come.
Maree, forty six years is a long time. It wasn’t all crap either. It’s okay to grieve. Anger is part of the process. It helps us move forward and acknowledge the injustice. 🙂
Maree,
My hubs always wants a woman about 10-15 yrs younger than him. So unless the woman has $$$ and will be his sugar momma he won’t be attracted at all. I on the other hand like a man older and have had 2 rlsps with someone a decade older. That didn’t work well when I was 38 and the guy was 48 though. But I married in the Church and remarriage is not an option and men won’t have a platonic rlsp. So I guess I need to get a Chia Pet.
It’s not okay that he always put himself first, especially even before his own children.
It’s not okay that he NEVER takes responsibility for his bad behavior, bad decisions or financial self-destruction and always shifts the BLAME….always the victim.
It’s not okay that he is a pathological liar who constantly lies out of his lying liar hole.
It’s not okay that he knows he’s wrong and F’d up and refuses to get help or attempt to change or make ammends. Being a selfish, cheating asshole works for him.
Lol! Lying liar hole
The “not OK” list would be useful for those of us who are divorced and still optimistic enough to be seeking another partner.
I have applied this to prospective boyfriends:
It’s not OK to regularly “see” an ex-fuckbuddy for dinner
It’s not Ok to still be doing yardwork for your ex-wife at HER house
It’s not OK to shoplift, especially when you are with me
It’s not OK to buy ladies’ stockings on Ebay … that do not become a gift to me within a month of purchase (no he wasn’t a crossdresser)
It’s not OK to refuse to introduce me to any ex that you happen to meet and chat with when you are with me
It’s not OK to tell me your preferences in a woman, when you know darn well I will never have red hair or long legs
It’s not OK to tell me about your past infidelities…although I appreciate that you saved me some time dumping you
It’s not OK to lie about your age … White lies speak to character
It’s not OK to have dinner with your ex-wife because the “adult kids wanted to see their parents together again”
Just some ideas from the trenches
It’s not ok to have a whore continuously approach the woman who divorced you to continue triangulation. The gig is up. Your stuck with it. Fuck away and enjoy the circus.
More for the potential dating list:
It’s not OK to introduce me to friends or family as “a friend” when we are more than acquaintances; especially after introducing me to your “good, good friend of many years” who is obviously a former conquest.
It’s not OK to be a recovering alcoholic/addict who blames the booze/drugs and not your choices for your past problems
It’s not OK to discuss your mother, stepmother, ex wife , ex girlfriend etc. as evil incarnate (even if you were chumped I don’t appreciate hearing how you hate somebody of my gender)
It’s not OK to withdraw into another room to surf the net, text, phone etc. If you aren’t doing something I’d object to DO it in front of me
It’s not OK to treat anybody in the service industry with disrespect. Your screaming at a waiter about your not done well enough steak speaks volumes about how you will treat loved ones in private.
It’s not OK to talk about your children (adults or minors) as burdens or irritations. Unless your kid is a serial murderer that kid should be a source of pride and love.
It’s not OK to talk about or treat anybody’s pets harshly. How you view or treat a defenseless animal shows the entire world what you are capable of doing to people behind closed doors.
It’s not OK to view your parents or anybody of their generation or older as bothersome and stupid. How you treat your mother shows me how you will treat me once the “honeymoon” phase is over.
It’s not OK to blame your employer or work for your lack of career advancement. Yakking about your boss’s failings instead of your own shows you blame everybody else for problems.
It’s not OK to apply a double standard to our dating. If you are dating more than one person and expect me to stay home waiting for your wonderfulness I will not be dating you.
It’s not OK to ask me for money. Change for the parking meter..sure. Several hundred to fix your car…um NOOO!!!
Plenty more all of us could put here … most of them part of looking for those red flags.
Justanotherchump,
We ought to ask Tracy to do a column on dating red flags, since that is part of the therapy / preparation / training we all should have while undertaking our picker-repairs.
I am glad I spent a few months on dating sites. It has been at best a few laughs and at worst, an anthropological education.
While it is good to review our “it’s not oK” list for ex’s, getting to true “meh” will involve cementing our boundaries so that red lights flash as soon as these disordered behaviours crop up.
“Heartless Bitches” has a “Red Flag List” – that site is how I actually ended up on ChumpLady’s site, when through my research phase.
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/redflaglist.shtml
Though, there are some there, that I wouldn’t consider red flags as such, or are dependent on context. Number 111 is an example – as long as a person has learned from a relationship and knows their shit well, being with someone else a short time later isn’t a red flag. 133 – not everyone has a big appetite! And I don’t see anything wrong with 136 either, given that I still live with a parent at age 30 myself – its cheaper that way!
love it. nice work
It is not OK to get a phone line to talk to other women
It is not OK to be stupid enough to leave your phone so that your son can find it and read your texts
It is not OK to have Yahoo accounts when your wife has tried to forgive you for the phone line
It is not OK to go out 5 nights a week and get drunk
It is not OK to drive drunk and total 2 vehicles within a year
It is not OK to mock your wife or kids
It is not OK to think you are actually entitled to half our assets when YOU stepped out and destroyed our family. Asshole
“It is not OK to think you are actually entitled to half our assets when YOU stepped out and destroyed our family. Asshole”
LadyStrange – absolutely! and I’ll add:
It is not ok to play the ‘poor pitiful me’ or the ‘she’s such a bitch’ card when I got more than half of the assets because you’re a lying, serial cheating, SOB.
It’s not ok to discuss our *confidential* financial agreement with our daughter so you can attempt to triangulate us and manipulate me.
It’s not ok to tell your daughter that ‘mom got all my money so she can pay for whatever you need cause I’m too poor’.
Asshole indeed!
Ya – I got the pity story of how poor he is going to be after the divorce. His parent ‘gave’ us (no – I paid for it) some land and they too are ‘getting screwed.’ Whatever. Thankfully I spoke with a friend the other day about that and she so graciously reminded me of how my mother-in-law took advantage of me and my daughter for YEARS and treated us like shit. So nope – it is too bad that ‘we’ only paid $5000 for land that is worth $70,000. I will take MY share thank you 🙂
Oh and back to the first sentance….. When we started ‘going through’ the divorce, dumbshit sent me a text explaining how rich he is going to be once I am out of the picture spending all HIS money. LMFAO! Soooo – when he was crying a few weekends ago about how he is now going to have to work the rest of his life (because I am all too happy to take half that pension asswipe), I just wanted to find that text on my phone and say “Wait a minute… remember how rich you were going to be after the divorce?” Poor dumbass.
I am sure he will be telling my kids the same thing.
Just the BIG one for me:
It’s NOT OK to…go to multiple marriage counseling sessions tearing down and humiliating your husband while you secretly carrying on an affair behind his (and the counselor’s) back.
Secretly? Mine was quite proud of it.
Just sick ChumpDad!
Agreed
absolutely DM!!
It’s not okay to use lies to cover your tracks
It’s not okay to make me feel divided between you and the kids (you’d never win that race)
It’s not okay to have to conjure up an emotion because you don’t feel them naturally
It’s not okay to drive us into a financial hole and then blame me
It’s not okay to sit at bars night after night and drive home drunk
It’s not okay to make me handle everything and then resent me for doing it well
It’s not okay to abandon your family for a piece of ass
It’s not okay to blame the OW for the affair because “you just don’t know how it happened”
It’s not okay to ……….. oh hell he’s just not okay …………
Here is a list for ex-cheater number one:
It’s not OK to have a seven month affair during our engagement, then expect a 23 year old to “suck it up, forgive, and marry you” (I did anyway)
…I take full responsibility for the mistake of marrying him.
It’s not OK to refuse to apologize for the affair, despite my forgiveness
It’s not OK to defend the OW’s character and accomplishments, when she knew absolutely that she was screwing my fiance at the time
It’s not OK to NOT explain why the affair happened after being with me for seven years
It’s not OK to tell your family you “gave up a good woman for Marci” only for me to find this out after bearing your children
It’s not OK to take a job where you are away from home 5 of 7 days a week, then ignore me when you ARE home
It’s not OK to constantly make me play second fiddle to the kids, always
It’s not OK to come in the door and mumble “hi” then go and watch TV until I call you for dinner. I need minimal amounts of affection.
It’s not OK to habitually “forget” special occasions. Keep a diary if you are forgetful.
It’s not OK to bash my education or career plans without discussing them.
It’s not OK to let your parents decide what car we are buying.
It’s not Ok to let your parents decide what summer vacation we are taking, where we spend Xmas, or whether we should buy any particular asset.
Agh. So glad that one is over. It was 29 years of slow, burning rage.
Here is th list for ex-cheater number 2:
It’s not OK that you were born
This one brought a smile a mile long.
Nicole and TP,
I was tempted to indulge in a long rap sheet for ex#2, but since he was flattened by the karma bus recently, I can only think of him as a puffed-up clown who imploded. I actually picture him in a clown outfit with a red nose. What he and OW tried to do to me was despicable and they are now getting all they deserve. I am glad I stood back and let them self destruct.
Marci – do tell..
Kimberly,
At the risk of appearing to be a pity ho, here is an abridged version of the “not OK” for cheater #2.
I preface this by saying how stupid I was to ever take in the waif. These are things I have learned about him since then.
It is a cautionary tale about not “settling” for just anyone if one is lonely post divorce.
It’s not OK to:
Neglect to tell me you actually have a wife who threw you out for frequenting prostitutes.
Live off me while unemployed, then start an affair with a co-worker as soon as you find a job.
Bring the OW to my house to fuck her (in my bed) while I am on business trips.
Allow the OW to take my stuff, wear my clothes, eat my food.
Steal things from my house to give to OW, because she is down on her luck.
Hatch a plan to poison me when I make you my life insurance beneficiary.
Pretend to be a good house husband when actually feeding me lead paint.
Use my laptop to message OW (which is how I caught you)
Pull a knife on me when I order you to leave MY house on d-day.
Tell the cops it was just a domestic dispute and hide the knife.
Try to break into my house to recover your toy soldier collection.
Make the OW email me because you’re too chicken shit to insult me directly.
Lie to the cops so often, they actually start a vendetta against you.
Lie to our mutual friends (agh, so what)
Tell the OW the house is half yours when I bought it for cash…my cash!
Get the OW pregnant when you have a minimum wage job.
Claim disability benefits for OW even though she is perfectly fit to work.
Indulge in shill bidding on ebay because you are so desperate to make extra money (turned you in for that)
Live in the inlaws basement for a year when you run out of money
OK so the karma bus consists of the situation that has gradually evolved around these two, their mounting debt and resulting desperation, and their capacity for self delusion. They are resorting to selling their story on Jerry Springer-type shows, any media that will listen…twitter, blogs, TV reporters. They have now been done for benefits cheating, have lost their rent subsidy, she still is not working besides writing a blog and has just popped a second spawn. She has ballooned up to 300 lbs (no exaggeration) and he is getting porky himself. They seek interviews about all sorts of things…their sex life, her phobias, their spawn (photos of their tiny children all over the web), his dysfunctional family, …there’s drama every single day. She writes reviews of trailer parks, junk food outlets, and baby products.
I have actually moved on, and made sure they cannot find me. I only know of their troubles because she blogs! Well, acually I still have his unchanged email password but do not care enough to ever look.
holy crap!!!
Marci- thanks for making me laugh this morning!
I have this list in my phone and I look at if whenever feel the effects of ongoing gas lighting:
It’s not ok to experience elevated heart rate and other signs of physical anxiety when he is in a mood.
It is not ok to feel total despair when I am preparing dinner.
It is not ok to live with the question : Is he thinking about leaving?
It’s not ok for your husband to say: “She is the kind of woman I would date if I was single and didn’t have a family. We are just really good friends. I am not having an affair. You can’t tell me who I can be friends with how dare you tell me what I can and can’t do. ”
It’s not ok to not be valued.
It’s not ok to never feel heard and so stop trying to communicate. It’s not ok then to be told you have nothing to say of any interest.
It’s not ok to minimise myself and my needs to the point where I am nothing and only exist to be amenable to his needs.
It’s not ok for him to privilege his needs, development, career and interests always over everyone else in the family.
It’s not ok for me to be with someone who forces me to model a bad example to my daughter.
It’s not ok to live without being able to make plans for the future.
It’s not ok to be with someone who only touches me when they want sex.
It’s not ok to be with someone who gets a puppy for the kids, doesn’t look after it or train it, and names it after his affair partner!
It goes on… I started it when he was still living at home and it really helped me see the futility of continuing the pick-me dance. There was no prize.
Opal, amazing list. Yup. Only being touched when they want sex hurts so much…
THIS is wonderful! So helpful! SO HELPFUL! Thank you!
Oh Opal – I can so relate to your post! One that stood out after so many yrs of marriage was – “not okay not to make plans for the future”.
This one hit me hard as the last red flag.
Thankfully, I am making my own plans now.
I find this post to be annoyingly redundant after the brilliant “Trust That He Sucks.” They’re evil assholes, spelling it out for them, will not make them less evil or less fucked up. Character transplant has not been invented yet. Just saying.
Yo Mons!
It’s not like we’re sending this list to our ex’s. We all fully grasp that they don’t get it. The lists are for the newbies.
I know your book deadline must be stressing you out CL, but it’s exciting to hear it’s getting that much closer to being published!
I disagree, Monika, on two points:
1) lists are a different way to view and process things, so for some people a list is more helpful than paragraphs of descriptions.
2) folks can put different things into the list, as we have seen from the various posts: what is not ok on the part of the significant other, but also what is not ok on the part of the Chump (things they did that they shod not have ahead to do, etc.
CL– glad the deadline is looming… Looking forward to the book!
“Should”, not shod, darn autocorrect and no glasses
“Annoyingly redundant”? Woo. That was uncalled for. Do not bite the hand that holds the pen that feeds us all soul food. CL could probably post her grocery list and I’d be thankful. Personally, I think this is a great thread, and I can’t wait to read all the posts. Good luck getting your book in, Tracy. Can’t wait to read that as well!
I think it’s more to enumerate poor behavior and choices as a way to remind oneself 1) that, yep, s/he sucks, and 2) begin to fix your picker.
My book is due Monday. It’s a wonder I’m posting at all. So hey, if someone sends me a ready-made column? It’s going UP.
Ya’ll can have brilliance again when my brain recovers. If it recovers.
You da’ man,
CL.
No you da’man
Oh, yeah, right..
I’m newish to CN, so I need the repetition. But (of course right) lets build ourselves back up, I’d like to see a re-post to how CN members are mighty, instead of how much the non-members (who like to stick there members elsewhere) suck. It’d be a good way to get a weekend going.
CL, you rock with keeping CN going while trying to get your book done!
This IS brilliance, CL. Every different angle that I see this whole load of crap from makes me understand it more clearly, and manage things with me ex and in future relationships better.
I too see this as much more about affirming our values, than just bashing the cheaters – although my narc cheater ex has certainly contributed to my clarifying and affirming my values!
As I am a newly chumped, I did not read the post the first time around. Thanks CL and good luck on the book!
I need this post today. It would be my 32nd wedding anniversary – 2 years out from DD and divorce still not finalized and he’s introducing his schmoopie as fiancé. I’m not at meh. My goal to get through today is to make a new list of all these things. I’ve reset my boundaries and they’re really high! I’m happy learning the new me after all these years!
CONGRATS on the new book! Can’t wait to read it!
Hi Susan, I’m Susan too. It would be, like, my 30+ yrs anniversary soon too.
I’m 4 yrs out, getting much closer to meh…but it’s been a slow road.
Mine wanted nothing more than to come back to the marriage. Be glad yours didn’t.
Remember, never get jealous when u see your x with someone else, because our parents taught us to give our toys to the less fortunate…
Nice to know there is another Susan out there…
It’s not ok to be selfless
It’s not ok to love a spouse unconditionally.
Thanks CL. Can’t wait for the book.
It’s not OK to pass along multiple STDs and then try to convince me after 22 years of faithful marriage ( on my part ) that I picked them up from years ago from someone else.
K, my ex told me the same thing, his saintly OW couldn’t possibly have given him the STI, i must have gotten from one of the skanks I had sex with before I met him, you know 17 freakin years later…they are assholes
All of the above – I need to remember these now that I have started dating too.
In my marriage :
Not ok to stop kissing me because you are holding a grudge and then continue to withold kissing for the remainder of a 14 year marriage because you “kept score “.
Not ok to date while married. Ever.
Not ok to wait until you have accomplished 7 years of education and then ditch your wife within two months of your new career.
Not ok to spend over one half of your marriage glued to porn.
There are a lot more. Many of you have covered them.
Just needed to vent today!
Lucky – I resonate with the “Not ok to not kiss me for 14 years.” My stbx hasn’t told me he loved me for roughly 15 years because of my ficticious affair. HE doesn’t want to get hurt again! Yep – I tell my friends that he has not told me he loved me for 15 years….they can’t believe it. I never had an affair, yet I am punished for it continuously.
It’s not ok to say nothing is wrong/going on when you are found to end texts sent to your younger graduate co-worker with ‘xx’. It’s not ok you tried to make me be friends with her.
It’s not ok to ask for space because you say you were depressed and use that space to start an affair with that co-worker
it’s not ok to tell her intimate details of our marriage
It’s not ok to bring her to our home and tell me what you did and where
it’s not ok to tell me about the ow vs me comparison spreadsheet you’d made with your mother (and how I compared)
it’s not ok that your family and friends knew about your affair before I did thanks to gaslighting etc
it’s not ok that you took her to meet your family while we were still in false RIC.. Its not ok that you befriended ow’ s mother and sent her chummy texts then either.
It’s not ok that you moved out straight away but refused to collect your stuff, or take any responsibility to split our assets, or sell our house when it was over, but left me to sort things out through your father.
It’s not ok that you spent 7 months after dday going back and forth between me and the ow but then admitted you were only ’50/50′ about it.
It’s no ok… damn when you put it in a list it’s more than just not ok… it’s horrific. Looking forward to Tuesday.
Oh sweet Lord, an OW comparison spreadsheet. This makes my blood boil. You are well rid of that crap!
Its not ok that I could make a list of what was not ok about how you purposely and selfishly destroyed our lives.
TheClip
And a long list at that.
It’s not OK that you involved our child in your affairs, to the point that the child was constantly being forced to lie, felt conflicted keeping things from me and had to be hospitalized from the stress.
It’s not OK that you lied to me for four years (about several OW) while spewing a constant refrain of “she’s just a friend, she’s just a friend, she’s just a friend.”
It’s not OK that you told our son “I don’t like fat chicks” (referring to me and why we are no longer together)…then your next OW is in fact, a fat woman as well!
It’s not OK that you isolated me from friends, neighbors, etc., with your stupidity and rages…but were rarely home over the past few years running around with OW.
It’s not OK that our son could not go to camp one year because we didn’t the $, while you were running around wasting cash on other women, getting (shitty) tattoos, etc.
It’s not OK that you still breath…wish you would die (painlessly of course) so I can collect the life insurance $ before the divorce is final and I have to cancel the policy!!! fucktard
What NicoleS said–get written into the divorce decree that he MUST maintain life insurance (with YOU as beneficiary) worth the collective amount of child support until the children turn 18/or graduate from high school, AND he must provide you with proof of that insurance with you as beneficiary annually. I am forever grateful to my lawyer for this suggestion, now written into my decree.
Mine brought OW into my home, where she proceeded to lecture my teenage daughter about wearing “inappropriate” clothing in front of her father. My daughter was wearing her high school track uniform! Not one to put up with shit from anyone, my daughter promptly put the bitch in her place. I also felt something was off, but kept being told they were “just friends”. It’s not ok to lie and repeatedly gaslight your wife while she is begging you to tell her what is wrong and point blank asking you if you are having an affair.
Don’t cancel the life insurance policy if he is paying child support. It will guarantee child support will still be paid if he dies before your kids turn 18.
It is not okay that he purposefully took me around his APs when I was oblivious to his affairs.
Mine did this. Tried to encourage me to be friends with her. My spidey sense was heightened but I was chumpy and thought he was loyal. Now I see it was all part of the game. Sick Sick Sick.
What a slap in the face! Hulk smash!
Yep, I’m with you. Spidey sense tingling, and he was being my buddy the whole time. They are both reprehensible.
It’s not okay to continually lie to your wife, to your kids, to your family, to everyone about your duplicitous relationship with a two bit dim witted tramp. Just so you can have what you want. Because your character sucks.
It’s not okay to engage your loyal wife in a game of “pick me dancing” while all along you are still seeing your whore.
It’s not okay to tell your kids you will do things then bail.
It’s not okay to be selfish and put yourself above your commitments and obligations.
It’s not okay to purchase ridiculously expensive things while slighting your kids’ college funds.
It’s not okay to post nice things on facebook about your wife (birthday shout outs, mother’s day, etc) to keep up appearances, while lying to her face in real life.
In the future, my red flags for relationships will be:
1. Extreme selfishness
2. Financial instability
3. Big spenders
4. Men who are into appearances
5. LIARS. Lie to me, even about little things, especially about little things.. and you are out of there.
Things I value most in people:
1. Honesty/Integrity
2. Friendship
3. Humor
4. Intellectual curiosity
5. Character
Ditto. Except exchange Men for Women in #3.
It takes extremely disordered people to do things like this. The whore in my case came to the hospital after my last child was born, held him, gave us a gift. My mind tells me that if that’s really the person he prefers to me, a loyal woman with many good qualities.. then good riddance.
I am sure my heart will catch up, as will yours LS. We will make it.
It’s *Not Okay* that I stayed in our dysfunctional marriage for over 30 years. All because I was stubborn enough to try to make it work.
Lesson: “Know WHEN to Quit”.
This post hit home for me today. Ironically this morning while I was working, I found myself (after nearly 2 years of my forcing separation and divorce) missing the “good” side of my X. I hadn’t done that in a long time. Fortunately, I quickly reminded myself of the bad side – and I know that is just as much a part of him as the good. On to better things.
It’s not okay to enter in to a relationship with me by lying about your name and your age and your problem holding a job. Or to tell me you “want someone to take care of” when you can’t even take care of your own children or yourself.
It’s not okay to fly home to England using my credit card while I was asleep.
It’s not okay to emotionally abuse me and destroy my self esteem. It’s not okay to pull a knife on me and make me think this could be the day I die.
It’s not okay to go out seven nights a week until you found twu wuv and instantly decide that you hate me.
It’s not okay to finally (after months) admit you’re having an affair and then for months tell me you want me but need time to break it off with her.
It’s not okay for you to tell me that you didn’t mean the above, you were just testing me.
It’s not okay to then say you didn’t mean the above because you were “cushioning me”.
It’s not okay to say you thought I’d changed and then see that I haven’t so don’t want me again.
It’s not okay to call me crazy, nervous, high strung, when you’re the one who left me broke, bankrupt, and frightened.
Geez, ML, that is HORRIBLE. Please don’t tell me he is British!
It’s not ok to steal from your kids’ futures. He’d routinely deposit and immediately withdraw checks for the childrens’ college savings, contributed by family members on both sides. Family tricked into paying for strippers. Kids wrote thank you notes for nothing.
It’s not ok to make your family so impoverished that we constantly had to “wait till the next payday” to buy whatever we needed. That often was repeated 2,3,4,5 times depending upon how expensive. It wasn’t unusual to make dogfood for 2 to 6 days to make it till payday. Imagine my surprise when I saw that, on average, a thousand dollars per month went to strippers and affairs! That was seriously not ok.
It was not ok to give me an std, which I will never get rid of.
It’s not ok that you went back to the strip club, despite your agreed condition for reconciliation, in order to provide a public service notification to all involved that you caught this virus. That’s not your job. And besides, your search history indicated an unusual interest in researching this virus six months before you gave it to me and supposedly caught it yourself.
It’s not ok that you were charming and communicative with literally everyone but me. If I wanted to hear you talk, I had to listen to your conversations with others. I was treated to silent disdain. I wasn’t worth talking with. That message was silently pounded in for years. I’ll never forgive that.
It was not ok to look at me like you hated me. I did not deserve that. I tried so hard and couldn’t ever do enough.
It’s not ok that you destroyed my self worth. I was put down, belittled, and ignored.
It’s not ok that you pretended to love me and repent your “mess-ups” throughout the 2.5 month false recovery time before D-day 2. You switched back to lovebombing just to manipulate me into staying. I hysterically bonded while you flitted between at least three women. Gross. I’ll never forgive that.
It’s not ok that for visitations, my kids have to endure a live-in-girlfriend situation which began as soon as the ink dried on the divorce. She was one of the OW at the end. And likely the source of the virus, according to my investigations.
It’s not ok that we all had to walk eggshells around you, and that the kids still do.
It’s not ok that you never helped me with the kids when they were little. It’s actually not a big deal being a single parent. Quite nice actually. I already did everything myself. But now I have a consistent, reliable income of money, and without financing the whore industry, I’m not scrimping like before.
It’s not ok that our kids are stuck with visiting you because courts say you own half their dna. Please understand that they will be long gone when they’re 18. You own your piece of them now, but they will break free. And then you will die alone.
It’s not ok. It’s all disgusting. And when the kids get away, you will finally be dead to me. I look forward to never seeing or hearing from you again. You make me sick to look at. Your voice makes me ill. You are a biblical demon incarnate. Not even human.
Love the rant Crimson Comet. I’m going to write my own in my journal tomorrow! Very empowering.
Check into your state’s laws – I know where I live, a child has the right after the age of 12 to decide they don’t want to visit the other parent anymore. And their visitation holds no bearing on child support.
Thanks Kel and KarenE for the replies. I thought so too, when I first separated. Had well meaning friends tell me second-hand accounts of this being the case. My lawyer specifically told me that there is no such age, and without physical or sexual abuse, there was no way a judge would let a 14yo decide. Apparently courts equate emotional and psychological abuse as positive parenting time. So we’re stuck until he runs off with a whore or his heart gives out due to his lifestyle.
Crimson Comet–get a second opinion, and if your lawyer is wrong, get the custody amended when your children reach the relevant age. (Chances are, cheaters not being the loyal type, his enthusiasm for custody will taper off over time anyway.)
Sending heart attack vibes his way!!!!
Ditto here (Quebec); from age 8, the child’s preferences are ‘heard’ in custody decision making, from age 12 they decide how much time to spend w/each parent, and from age 14, whether to spend any time at all. Worth checking out, ’cause 18 is a long time! (And even at 16 or 17, lots of kids just get ‘too busy’ to spend much time w/the parent they can’t stand. Jobs, sports, volunteering, social life ….)
Oh, and by the way, what Chump Lady says about the “Reconciliation Industry” is true. From my post, you can see I got sucked into this for a while. Joined an online message board of one the “builds” marriages hint hint. Bought the books, devoured the wisdom, and tried to fix me, while struggling to shove the truth under the rug with copious quantities of alcohol. He wouldn’t go to counseling, or would once we had the money, which never happened. He signed my agreement of reconciliation, and proceeded to break half the conditions, with clever justifications like above.
I encountered Chump Lady on the message board I joined. She and a psychiatrist I started seeing for depression, were the guiding lights who led me out of the abyss. I will always be grateful to both.
It’s not OK to ruin our honeymoon with your temper.
It’s not OK that you disrespect me because you’re upset.
It’s not OK that you’re upset all the time, over inconsequential crap.
It’s not OK to get upset all the time, like a spoiled brat.
It’s not OK that you deceived me into marrying a person who isn’t a Christian.
It’s not OK to tell me, in front of our marriage counselor, that you intend to continue cheating.
It’s not OK to tell me you can’t decide between me and your AP.
It’s not OK to keep me hanging on while you had your affair openly.
It’s not OK that you unilaterally decided on a separation – so you can cheat and do drugs.
It’s not OK that you smoke pot behind my back.
It’s not OK that you moved out while I was at work.
It’s not OK that took a day off and told me you were going to the doctors to cheat on me, while I was at work.
It’s not OK that you have a different persona when there’s someone else around.
It’s not OK that you played the jealous wife and insinuated that I can be unfaithful while contemplating cheating on me.
Ok, this can go on and on and on. I’ll stop.
Have to add this one:
It’s not OK that you had sex with your AP then let me kiss you when I came home from work! Yuk!!
i add my YUK to that too
Me too
Awful, just awful!! You are mighty Michael.
This topic is especially relevant for me, as I spent quite a bit of time and energy trying to convince my ex that certain things were, in fact, not OK, while he kept telling me that threatening me physically (very, very convincingly) was ‘not a big deal’ (because he didn’t actually hurt me) and that infidelity is ‘just something that happens in relationships’.
(Sometimes I wished I could go back in time in an alternate universe, screw around and threaten him before he did those things to me, and see how OK he actually was with it.)
FINALLY I realized that it was totally irrelevant whether he ever understood or accepted that these things are not OK. They are not OK for ME. And I don’t ever again want to be with someone for whom these things are OK.
I’ve got to clarify the ‘not OK’ list in my mind, though. Clearly my picker was not working at all when I met him, I have a big weakness for poor sausages, and I don’t want to make this kind of mistake again! I want to be with someone who shares my values, and wants the kind of relationship that I want. Took me a very long time to understand that that was NOT my ex.
KarenE–I think a lot of us waste a lot of effort trying to explain to our Cheaters that what they’re doing is NOT okay, and in fact hurts us. I have cried tears of frustration in the past when trying to explain to my STBX that what he did was very hurtful to me. I am not a person who cries, but his failure to understand/acknowledge my pain from something he could easily choose to do otherwise (see? a compromise–I’m not telling you NOT to do something, but to achieve the goal through some other means)–had me break down more than once.
And this was not even about cheating. I didn’t even bother to try to explain to him how much his cheating hurt. By that time, I realized he didn’t care/couldn’t understand.
Hence, to add to the list of excellent “It’s not OK” things: It’s not OK for you to blow me off when I’m trying to tell you that what you’re doing causes me pain. It is especially not OK when I am trying to meet you half way by letting you know that what you’re doing causes me pain, but if you did it in X way instead of Y way, you could still do it.
It’s because we all continued to think that our cheaters were ‘normal’ people with a conscience and empathy. If only they could SEE how much they were hurting us, of course they’d feel guilty and stop their infidelity and gas lighting and blame shifting !!!
Didn’t happen, never going to happen, because they are not normal, and are missing the empathy module.
Oh yeah – it is NOT ok for MOW justafriend to be at our house constantly and forced into my life because she is such a good friend!
It is not ok for her to borrow my clothes, start to dress like me and also try to parent my children.
What is with these guys that they get off on having the OP right under our noses?
Is it easier for them to compare if we are in the same room?
More puck me dancing and triangulating is my guess.
It’s not ok to stay married to this shit!
I think it is an ego boost for them-I know something you don’t. It makes them feel (in the words of my hilariously funny departed dad) like “big swinging dicks”. After one particularly hostile reaction from me, OW did everything to avoid me. X, on the other hand, seemed to get off on having us in the same room. It gave him some kind of sick thrill.
This was an excellent post! I 2nd the whole thing!
Its not OK to think there was ever anything OK with a cheater who wasted my best years, destroyed our family and messed up happily growing old together. His mere existance is not OK.
It is not OK for me to ever make excuses for anyone again when I now know the red flags and am conscious of them.
It’s not OK that you went to Puerto Rico to judge the Miss Puerto Rico beauty pageant on our first wedding anniversary, without letting me go with you. It’s also not OK that when I got upset about this, you raged at me about how I “never let you do anything” and berated me so much that I felt badly and apologized.
It’s not OK that you screwed a prostitute in the hotel across the street from the courthouse I work in, during business hours.
It’s not OK that you told your divorce lawyer that all the prostitutes you hired were for me to sleep with.
It’s not OK that you screwed prostitutes on your children’s birthdays.
It’s not OK that because of my anxiety and depression over your actions, you convinced me I was mentally ill and caused me to take medication for years to “fix” myself.
It’s not OK that you screwed prostitutes three times while I was on trial (as the lawyer) defending a police officer from a wrongful death claim from an officer involved shooting (but I won anyway, you asswipe)
It’s not OK that for Valentine’s day right after D Day, you bought me a gift certificate to get boudoir photos taken.
It’s not OK that you rationalized your behavior on D Day by claiming you were “emasculated by my success” as a trial lawyer.
It’s not OK that you accused me of abandoning your children (my step-children) because I left you, then refused to let me see or talk to them ever again, or explain why I left or tell them I loved them.
Even though I didn’t know about most of this at the time, it’s not OK that I allowed myself to be treated this way during the marriage. That’s the takeaway.
Thanks for this. It was incredibly cathartic.
He’s a coward.
Rather than bettering himself, or loving you for being a strong, effective mate for him, he chose to try to undermine you and show you ultimate (in his mind) disrespect–he chose to give you the double-barrel middle finger (but behind your back, of course, in a “I know something you don’t know” way).
He’s the definition of coward. He was nothing without you. You tried to build him up and appreciate him, and he resented you for it.
COWARD.
They all are.
Just realized why this topic IS different from ‘trust that they suck’!
The cheaters so often tried and tried to convince us that certain things WERE OK, or acted like they were. Or they still do, when they polish their images or try to convince us to ‘stay friends’. Other people do too, when they ‘stay neutral’, and our whole culture does, when adultery is romanticized in celebrity mags, movies and songs.
So we do need to have it clear in our own minds, and push this is our own circles and society in general;
THIS SHIT IS NOT OK.
I agree Karen, it feels like I’m crawling out of hell since I left my STBX, THIS SHIT IS NOT OK!
It’s gas-lighting. Telling us chumps that it IS ok. Making these lists helps us to assert our own truths: no matter what they say or do, it is NOT ok.
I was gas-lit so bad I damn near went crazy! It’s just sickening, leaving was a relief!
I woke up at 2:30 AM last night and sent this email to my STBX and Son. My STBX has turned my son against me over the last 9 months after I found out about his 4 year affair with a co-worker. He convinced my son that it was my fault that it happened, that I was a terrible wife, btw I was never told that before he got caught in the affair last Sept 2014. I’ve since left and live in a city far away and I’m re-building my life. I happened to read some texts yesterday between them (STBX and Son) and I was horrified to see how they were talking about me. Hence why I wrote this email to both of them last night. Now I will let go! And hopefully my son comes around one day when he realizes the TRUTH.
It’s NOT OKAY that I feel this way and felt compelled to do this email in the middle of the night.
(Their names), this is for the both of you,
I will no longer allow anyone in my life that disrespects and hurts me. It’s really sad that it turned out to
be the two men I loved with all my heart and trusted that ended up causing me the most pain I’ve ever felt
in my life. With that said, I’m sure you both understand my new rule now for myself and that your just
wasting your time ever trying to contact me because I will not respond.
Kate (Mom)
Get TOXIC people out of YOUR LIFE! Even if it is family. This video helped me to understand what I needed to do.
https://youtu.be/ll2DXQrVMp4
Kate50, so sorry your STBX has done this to your son. I feel your pain because my ex tried this with my daughter too but fortunately didn’t succeed like yours has. I still struggle with being able to trust her and believe that she is honest with me because of some of the things he had her doing for him behind my back. She knows all of this and I have been very clear with her that I will not tolerate it again. So in essence, if she lies to me for him again, she will have move out (she’s 18). I really hope it doesn’t come down to that but I am prepared for it if it does. Stay strong Kate….as your son matures, he will hopefully see his father for what he is and realize what he is missing from his life.
BBCheater, I really think the day will come when STBX’s life will completely implode and all the truth will come out finally. Hopefully that’s when my son will realize he was as betrayed as much as I was. Praying for truth is all I can do!
Kate50–I feel for you; having your son turned against you is yet another injustice.
Kids who are the same sex as the cheater have an especially hard time of it because they naturally want to identify with that parent as part of the developmental process, and (as children), they are perhaps more prone to the gas lighting.
Truth will out, though it may take awhile. Good for you letting them both know you won’t tolerate disrespect in any relationship. Hugs to you.
Kate
Children have a way of figuring these things out as they mature. It’s good to leave that door open for your son. Living with your X may be short lived.
I agree with so many above plus:
It’s not okay that you didn’t figure out and tell me about your sexual orientation before marriage.
It’s not okay that you met so many bio women and transsexual women from Craigslist and AFF etc for sex that you claim that you don’t even know the number.
It’s not okay that you refused to change yor phone number after using it so much for cheating.
It’s not okay that you continue to use your cheating usernames in other social media.
It’s not okay that you verbally abuse me and tell me that you want to watch me suffer.
It’s not okay that you followed me from room to room for hours yelling at me or that I didn’t leave sooner.
It’s not okay that you view your verbal abuse and rages as “our arguments.”
It’s not okay that I’m scared of you or that you have hit other women.
It’s not okay that I’m this good of a person, this fun, this sexy, and this successful and that I waste any more time on you. (It wouldn’t be okay regardless of my awesome qualities either.)
It’s not okay to lie on the bed watching TV when I do all the work
It’s not okay to grumble when I call you for dinner
It’s not okay to rearrange the solar system and expect me to spend weekends recabling it
It’s not okay to close doors in my face because you dislike the puppy
It’s not okay to look bored and sleep on the couch when invited somewhere
It’s not okay to let me drive wherever we go (even to your parents’ place)
It’s not okay to let me pay everything up front and calculate later how much you owe
It’s not okay to send harsh messages when you want something from me
It’s not okay to never say / write please and thank you to anyone except your whores
It’s not okay to giggle every night on Skype with a stranger even if she teaches you a language
It’s not okay that the stranger actually teaches you a lot more than a language… 🙁
It’s not okay to be satisfied and proud that you took advantage of someone
It’s not okay to continue walking ahead of me and not turn around when I fall and hurt myself
It’s not okay to walk far ahead of me anyway
It’s heineous to say you don’t want commitment and then plan a wedding with a foreigner
It’s not okay to answer that all is fine when asked, and suddenly decide to dump me
It’s not okay to refuse every opportunity to make new friends and then look for friendship on line
It’s not okay to use commute fatigue as an excuse to rent an appartment and leave me alone all the time
It’s not okay to take advantage of your appartment to Skype to more strangers and watch porn
It’s not okay to expect me to maintain the house and act as a tourist office every weekend
It’s not okay to lure single strangers to visit our area, using our weekend pictures
It’s not okay that I pay for gas when you’re in the red and then you drive a stranger around for free
It’s not okay to talk me into linking another single woman who desires you
It’s not okay to never plan relaxing vacation with sports for both of us
It’s not okay to consider that I could spend said vacation to drive you and another woman around
ChumpFromF – ditto on the “it’s not okay for you to walk far ahead of me and not turn around if I fall down trying to keep up with you!”
It’s not okay to be a licensed marriage and family therapist, carry on with a client for six months, fuck her and claim that ethical boundaries are no different than the age requirements to get a drivers license.
Dublindrive – I’d have his license for that one. You should obtain evidence and report him to the medical board.
I did. The result was just turned in this week. He received a formal reprimand. Nothing more. Go Illinois! She’s an idiot for staying with him.
It is not okay to keep 1,000 of photos of women’s bottoms in bikinis from the past and present, that you secretly took and then house them in a box called, ¨family memories.¨
That is really warped and creepy.
It’s not OK that you don’t care about all of the ” It’s not OK’s”. It’s not OK that It’s all about YOU-YOU-YOU.
It’s not OK to announce to your wife and kids that you are taking a job overseas – which will allow you to more easily continue an existing affair – when you are in the line at Universal’s Harry Potter ride
It’s not OK to stay overseas while your daughter has cancer surgery
It’s not OK to sell your wife’s clothes and collectibles on eBay and send the money to your affair partner
It’s not OK to tell your wife that your current affair partner said that while you work on your career and your marriage, the AP will be waiting to see “if there is a place for her,” and you think that she could not have said it better
it’s not OK to tell your wife that you and your former affair partner were like “Forrest and Jenny”
It is not OK to let your work “friend” become friends with your wife – so that you can spend even more time with her.
It is not OK to bring your work “friend” around your tween/teen kids – and let them be “friends”
It is not OK to let your mistress enter our house – when she started giving you blow-jobs
It is not OK to bring your mistress to those Gourmet dinners I lovingly cooked for our family – at our house
It is not OK to defend her and make me look like I’m the Crazy one
It is not OK to not leave – and keep letting me give you CAKE – so that you can continue to Fuck 2 Women.
It is not OK for you to continue to do NOTHING about finishing the divorce… uhrrrr
It’s not okay to continually lie to your wife, to your kids, to your family, to everyone about your duplicitous relationship with a two bit dim witted tramp. Just so you can have what you want. Because your character sucks.
It’s not okay to engage your loyal wife in a game of “pick me dancing” while all along you are still seeing your whore.
It’s not okay to tell your kids you will do things then bail.
It’s not okay to be selfish and put yourself above your commitments and obligations.
It’s not okay to purchase ridiculously expensive things while slighting your kids’ college funds.
It’s not okay to post nice things on facebook about your wife (birthday shout outs, mother’s day, etc) to keep up appearances, while lying to her face in real life.
In the future, my red flags for relationships will be:
1. Extreme selfishness
2. Financial instability
3. Big spenders
4. Men who are into appearances
5. LIARS. Lie to me, even about little things, especially about little things.. and you are out of there.
Things I value most in people:
1. Honesty/Integrity
2. Friendship
3. Humor
4. Intellectual curiosity
5. Character
I agree, especially about liars and appearance freaks.
My deal busters.
1. Dating whores.
2. Physically abusive
3. Alcohol or drug abuse
It’s not OK to have me set up a babysitter for our son who was supposed to be in your care while secretly going out with OW
It’s not OK to for you to start making 10 year anniversary vacation plans (we were 8 years married at this point) and the same DAY I catch you texting OW
It’s not OK to write my parents an email stating how devastated you are and how sorry you are and how you never want to loose me or them, get them back on your side to accept you as their own again … only to be caught less than a week later cheating again
It’s not OK to watch me make myself physically sick from sobbing only to sneak to the “store” because you needed to text OW back leaving me home alone throwing up with our son in the other room
It’s not OK to make me try all these “new” gross sexual acts you were into knowing while you were cheating and then leave me anyways
It’s not OK to wear my underwear without me knowing— or ever really- admit you’ve been doing it for years behind my back and expect it to turn me on- freaking sicko asshole!
It’s not OK to have my 4 year old son ask you at the dinner table one night “Daddy who is your friend at work you said on the phone you loved the most” and then try to get me to believe you have no idea why he would say that
It’s not OK to make one of your employees give you and the HOworker the same schedule because you “worked so well together” all the while all of them knowing you two were screwing each other
It’s not OK to surprise me with a NYE vacation with my family and then take pictures while there of presents you wanted to get her and send them to her right in front of me and my whole family
It’s not OK to write me a letter at Christmas saying how there is no where else you would rather be and then text her all day saying how much you wish you two were together
It’s not OK to morph into this different version of yourself making me doubt the last 14 years of my life were ever real or all fake!
Thanks for giving me a great kid but thanks more for making me realize what a weak ass man you truly are and how much better I deserve! Now get your shit out of my house and get your ass out of my life!
It IS MORE THAN OK to never have to put up with your shit again!
Wow he is a huge asshole.
“It’s not OK to make me try all these “new” gross sexual acts you were into knowing while you were cheating and then leave me anyways” …yep… I forgot this line… applies to me too and I hated every second of it
When I think back over the years of tolerating a narcissist I regret believing his lies.
It’s not ok to allow your partner to blame infidelity on others. I fell for this early on because he was such a good guy and a covert narcissist.
It’s not ok to allow anyone to disrespect you by cheating.
It’s not ok to accept responsibility for anyone’s behavior.
It’s not ok to stay in a relationship when the consequences for cheating are never realized by the cheating asshole.
It’s not ok to reconcile. I don’t believe in this anymore regardless of what a liar states.
It’s not ok to suffer in silence because you have no support system.
It’s not ok to be dependent on anyone and make sacrifices.
It’s not ok to expose your spouse to STDs
It’s not ok to believe they will change.
I like this, Donna. I agree with you. I accept the responsibility for what it did to me and my soul to know the facts but to stay. In the future:
It’s not acceptable to stay with someone whose sexual interest is in everyone but me.
It’s not acceptable to squelch that little voice that tells me he is lying (after an acceptable amount of time had passed, of course. Right now everyone’s s liar!) or that something’s just not right.
It’s not acceptable to be intentionally excluded by someone who should be including me but is cutting me out to hide affairs
It’s not acceptable to have to work so hard to feel good enough for the person who promised to love me
It’s not ok to beg for counselling for three years after DDay only to be told each time that “it’s a waste of time”
It’s not acceptable that after a decade of lies you decide – two days before were scheduled to move out and separate -that you still love me and are sad about how things ended. Well fuck you. How dare you!
It’s not acceptable for me to spend DDay alone while you went to a party
It’s not acceptable to receive less than I give – from live to kindness to consideration and attention.
My motto is if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…. it is a duck. Never again will I allow my denial to rule my decisions.
It is not ok to be married and have private passwords…. number one indicator you are married to a liar and a cheat…..
Create boundaries and first time those are crossed walk away immediately…. no looking back!
Oh and its not ok to be called crazy or psychotic….. another pure indicator you are married to a cheat.
It’s not okay to fuck other women.
It’s not okay to stay with someone who has fucking other women as a coping skill.
I would add: It is not okay for you to breathe and use up valuable oxygen that a decent human being might want to use.
Great column! The posts here are heartbreaking – so much thoughtless and deliberate destruction of innocent adults and children just because of the cheaters malignant sense of entitlement.
Hmm…let’s see:
It was not okay for him to go to bed with someone he met at a bar during an out-of-town job assignment, six weeks after my brain surgery, and three months before the wedding. (One of the pieces of texting/email evidence he didn’t hide as well as he had thought.) Post-Wedding discovery #1.
It was not okay to continue with the affair of his married girlfriend during our courtship (which he enthusiastically initiated), engagement, and into our marriage. P-W discovery #2.
It was not okay to for him to chronically lie when the truth would have served him much better – especially when he knew I had the evidence.
It was not okay for him to express false, though very convincing, remorse. To continue to gaslight me and triangulate me to the point where I had become a shadow of my former self. Yep, Chump…personified.
It was not okay for him to suddenly “discreetly” (?!) expose himself as we were dining in a restaurant where there were families, with children, seated no more than fifteen feet away from us. He didn’t get caught, but I was beyond mortified. At that point, I tried to persuade him to get the help he desperately needed. Another Chump stand-by-your-man-even-though-he’s-obviously-a-deviant-but-I’ll-love-him-through-this move.
And just when I thought it couldn’t get worse, days later, all-the-while doing the Chumpy thing of continuing to look up therapists for him, I discovered something else:
It was not okay for him to secretly send photos of us on Craigslist Casual Encounters to total strangers, in hopes of setting up a “couples situation” that he thought he could manipulate (read: bully) me into. Hell No! Instead, I had a complete meltdown when I found out what he did, and it was the definitive last straw for me, realizing that there was no amount of love I could offer that would save or fix him. Not. Ever.
It was not okay for him to deliberately go on a out-of-the-blue verbal attack so that he could feign anger, jump on his motorcycle to “cool off”, and roar off to really meet with his hook-up-du-jour. This came on the heels of the restaurant and Craigslist incidents.
BoudicaR–ugh, yes, mine posted a picture of me on Adult Friend Finders without my knowledge, in hopes of setting up threesomes, or just a voyeuristic situation. I wish that had been my last straw, but it came on the heels of him asking for a divorce (didn’t know it was because of an affair), then wanting to salvage the marriage and issuing demands to me about what he needed to be happy. My emotions were so raw by that time that I didn’t have the wherewithal to recognize the Adult Friend Finder incident for the deal-breaker it should have been.
Tempest, I’m horrified by what you just shared and yet oh so happy to see you back on the blog. I have truly missed your voice, and I am sure I speak for all of us! Welcome home!
Thanks, FMT. Every story on CL is appalling; we couldn’t dream this stuff up if we tried.
(I’ve been traveling, with another chump, which is why I’ve been absent. 2 more days in Stockholm, then back to stateside. It’s been a great trip, though I’ve missed the CL community.)
Dream Tempest?? Hell no! In our wildest nightmares maybe! Who knew our lives could turn into the hellish scenes they became? Who the fuck does this shit to someone they supposedly “loved” for years and vowed to cherish? These stories, although real, are just beyond the pale!
I could list all the bonehead/abusive things my ex did, but there just isn’t enough time in the day. Going forward, I want to make sure anyone I date in the future is a keeper. Here are some boundaries I’ll have for myself (and if it means I don’t find anyone, then so be it!). These may not be boundaries for everywhere here on CN, but they are for me:
– It’s not okay to watch porn/chat/webcam
– It’s not okay to oogle other women and/or flirt
– It’s not okay to have women best friends (sorry, just how I feel)
– It’s not okay to shirk household responsibilities
– It’s not okay to idealize the single lifestyle
– It’s not okay to have Peter Pan syndrome
– It’s not okay to have been a past cheater
– It’s not okay to play video games for days on end
– It’s not okay to have addictions
– It’s not okay to expect others to give, give, give
– It’s not okay to badmouth your ex (if applicable) in front of your kids
– It’s not okay to live in a pigsty (cause I’m not living that way, and I won’t be your mom and pick up after you)
– It’s not okay to point fingers all the time
– It’s not okay to have different morals/faith than me
– It’s not okay to be harsh/cruel (if a future date has a mean bone in his body, he is not the one for me)
– It’s not okay to think the grass is always greener
Actually, there are more. But this shows that I’m going to be much more picky next time around. Thank goodness. I’m hoping my experience with narc/clusterB will help me spot disordered behavior early on. But the thought still scares me, so I’m not dating yet.
I agree with the women best friends thing.
My x husband became best friends with MOW at Univetsity.
I then dated a guy from home for a short while. Guess what?
His female BFF is also his FB between relationships and he still hung out with her all the time. Her boyfriend broke up with her and guess what???
I don’t share.
I am also in my late 40’s. This isn’t fucking highschool. Grow up.
Needless to say if a guy doesn’t have good boundaries around other women,
You are going to get hurt.
My standards are much higher now too.
It’s not okay to say you know you will cheat on me again, but not on AP.
It’s not okay to say she “makes me want to be a better person.”
It’s not okay to treat me like a warehouse where you keep your children when you are done playing with them.
It’s not okay that I have to ask you to contact your children int he weeks you don’t see them.
It’s not okay that you that while I travelled with the kids to stay with your parents you said you were working nearby, but were in fact with AP.
It’s not okay to tell me that AP’s husband begged you to stop seeing her.
It’s not okay that you could move close enough to be involved with the children on a daily basis, but choose not to because AP and you like her neighborhood.
It’s not okay you put AP in music video you directed for my brother (that I made happen.)
It’s not okay that you told other people we weren’t together anymore before you told me (or, you know, weren’t together.)
It’s not okay to treat me like a cook, maid, and babysitter.
It’s not okay to answer why you treated me that way with “I don’t know.”
It’s not okay to tell people you “gave me the house,” when it is my house.
It’s not okay that you decided you were depressed because of family life, but never said that and blamed it on your career I tried bent over backwards to accommodate.
It’s not okay you said you were doing things to help your struggling career when you were really seeing AP.
It’s not okay you changed your facebook status it “in an relationship with AP” before friends and family were even informed were were separated.
It’s not okay you spend your limited time with the children texting AP.
It’s not okay the timeline for you affair is all over the internet for our children to find eventually.
It’s not okay you asked me to speak with AP because “she feels really bad.”
It’s not okay you vetoed where I wanted to throw your 50th birthday party for a place you go with AP and introduced us there.
It’s not okay to say you want more time with the kids, but every time you are offered more, you decline.
Geez, I guess I could go on and on, but I will stop!