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Dear Chump Lady, My husband is trying to pimp me out to strangers

threesomeDear Chump Lady,

So my husband confessed to pimping me out to random strangers on the Internet in pursuit of sex (for the third time).

A couple of years ago while on vacation, we (mutually) decided to try a threesome. Being bisexual, I admit I enjoyed it, but I KNOW I made it very loud and clear (when he cheated on me the year before and I almost broke up with him) that any and all sexual activity should be mutually agreed on before we engage; in other words, don’t ask random strangers to hook up with us (unless I give the go-ahead) and never, EVER share my name and pictures with random people on the Internet without my prior approval!

Even the minutes leading up to the threesome, I had made it clear that it’s okay only because I was involved in the decision.

So, what did he do with that? Used it to justify banging a hooker when I was 7 months pregnant, on bed rest, while I was desperately texting him because I needed help with our older children.

And yeah, I rolled over and took that like a bitch too when I found out and confronted him because he seemed so apologetic. I just didn’t want to deal with it I suppose.

So what finally, FINALLY sent me into a rage?

He sent pictures of me (again, for the third time since we’ve known each other, without my consent) to random internet people trying to entice them into threesomes I never agreed to.

Fuck it sounds so fucking horrible when I wrote it all out like that. I don’t know how it doesn’t seem “so bad” in the moment.

Anyways, here is his response to my rage, (remember we haven’t had this conversation once, not twice, but three fucking times.)

“I’m sorry. I did stop when you said you weren’t up for it. [By stop he means he stopped sending my pictures to random internet people, he didn’t delete his account or end sifting through other peoples profiles.] I just remember you fantasizing about it when you were drunk and I was just curious at the time. That’s why I did what I did. I’m sorry I made you feel that way. I didn’t try to hide it from you if that makes a difference. I told you about it right away. The bottom line is that I didn’t know my actions at the time would make you feel the way you do now. Otherwise I wouldn’t have done it. I’m sorry.”

I am so lost here. I feel like I know him and that he genuinely believes this is an okay response, but what the fuck???!???


Dear Bell,

Who cares if he thinks it is an “okay response”? Do YOU think it is an okay response? Are you satisfied that he gets it? If you’re writing to me, I don’t think so.

With cheaters everywhere, pay attention to what they do, and pay no attention to what they say. Your husband’s actions are sending you a very clear message — he’s going to get his sexual jollies with other people whether you consent to it or not.

Your letter very clearly demonstrates a point I make time and again, which is that polyamory isn’t a cure for cheating. Just because you’re game and open up your marriage with some rules, doesn’t mean a cheater is going to play by those rules. Cheating is about entitlement. See, the rules don’t apply to Special People. Besides, breaking the rules is what gives cheating that frisson of danger and naughtiness. It’s all part of the high.

Oh, but you’re bi. Oh, but you once enjoyed a threesome. That’s besides the point. The point is CONSENT. Your husband is gaslighting you. He’s acting like you gave consent (because you once did upon a time) when you gave no such consent. This happened three times, he’s acting like him sending pictures out happened once and oops, he didn’t think you’d be upset.

I didn’t know my actions at the time would make you feel the way you do now. 

Bullshit. He absolutely knew that his actions would upset you, because you’d been upset before.

Here’s a great video explaining consent. Only substitute “cup of tea” for sex.

Simple, huh?

Did your husband ask your consent to fuck a hooker while you were on bedrest? Because that’s what every high-risk pregnant woman needs — the threat of STDs. Did he ask your consent to create sexual profiles on your behalf? Because failing to do so is illegal in 23 states, Israel, Germany, and the United Kingdom. (Revenge porn laws don’t just pertain to revenge scenarios. Any deliberate misuse can be a crime.)

Bell, here’s my read on your situation — your husband cheats on you. You respond to that threat by thinking you can contain that threat by joining him in some sexual adventuresomeness. Hey, dude, all you had to do was ask my permission. Instead of being grateful for this gift, he abuses it and moreover uses it as a pretext to continue cheating on you. Hey, if you’ll do a threesome, then you can’t be offended by a hooker!

Your sexual boundary pushing doesn’t mean you have no boundaries. He’s acting dumb, because no boundaries and no conditions is exactly the situation your husband wants. (How do I know this? Because that is the way he behaves.) Trampling your boundaries, no matter how far you stretch them, is part of the fun for him. It’s disrespectful, dangerous, and it’s a huge power trip.

You have every right to be furious that your pictures and identifying information are online thanks to him. This isn’t a small infraction, it’s a huge betrayal, and the fact that you’ve let it ride before shows me just how far this guy has worn down your defenses.

When you’re dealing with this level of entitlement, there is no “agreement” you can forge, no sexual pick me dance you can win, because you’re not dealing with an honest broker. He has no intention of being faithful, and in my opinion your husband gets off on humiliating you. You may have enjoyed the three-way, but if HE enjoyed it, he would’ve played by your rules. It’s the coercion he likes. Creating situations by which you feel compelled to oblige him. Creating situations in which he can use your image in his online sexual fantasies. Fucking a prostitute while you’re sick and vulnerable and telling you about it.

It’s cruel, Bell. There’s no sexual sophistication here. Just narcissistic abuse.

Like the cartoon says, I’d call that divorce lawyer and give him his threesome.


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  • Oooh, absolutely CL. Bell, it’s harder than hell to imagine packing up and leaving a partner when you’re vulnerable, a mother to small children and you’ve been betrayed and gaslit like nobodies business… ask me how I know this. All the courage and strength to you, my dear.

  • And I was drinking my morning tea as I read this. Now I will equate WTF with drinking tea. Love it! Thanks, CL.

    Bell, I just happened to be reading about cognitive dissonance. I know, who willingly does that? Using wikipedia instead of the book I am reading it states that the theory “is founded on the assumption that individuals seek consistency between their expectations and their reality.” Here are the wikipedia responses:

    1: Change behavior or cognition (“I will not eat any more of this doughnut”)
    2: Justify behavior or cognition by changing the conflicting cognition (“I’m allowed to cheat every once in a while”)
    3: Justify behavior or cognition by adding new cognitions (“I’ll spend 30 extra minutes at the gym to work this off”)
    4: Ignore or deny any information that conflicts with existing beliefs (“This doughnut is not high in fat”)

    What I have learned the hard way is that we can change our behavior, we can’t change their behavior. I am sorry that you find yourself in this position. Now you can begin the road to healing. Say no to the tea and the doughnuts.

    • I just ate chocolate while reading that, knowing that it is not going to help my current ‘get healthier’ kick.

    • Glinda, I use the cognitive dissonance principle to rationalize (to myself and others), just why some people take the cheaters side. It helps me to make sense of what little craziness I can.

  • Bell, as evidenced by the clarity and conciseness of your letter, and the way you discussed you terms before the threesome, there is no way in hell that your husband’s behavior is due to a miscommunication on your part or perceived consent. He knew he was doing something wrong.

    As for why he didn’t make an effort to hide it from you, it’s quite simple: He enjoys hurting you. I know you don’t want to believe this, but if you pay attention to his actions and not his words, it’s evident that your husband gets off on the toxic cycle of sneaking around in plain sight, getting caught, getting punished and then being forgiven. Every time you get angry and then forgive him, he feels desirable.

    There is no possibility of monogamy or ethical non-monogamy with a man like this. You need to get out of this marriage before he destroys your reputation and/or gives you an STD.

    • Lulu

      I think you are correct in the cycle of being caught and forgiven…which is what children do.

      The child does something wrong, the parent berates them, and then forgives them.

      They really are nothing more than overgrown spoiled brats.

      I think after reading here so much of the reason for them being who they are is because they had parents who would tell them they achieved goals not because they worked hard but because they are special little snowflakes and deserve to win, and because they caved in on punishing them and making it stick.

      I guess people in the end go back with what they are comfortable, and they go back to this spoiled little brat cycle as adults. However, once they start entering their thirties and forties, and people stop giving them the benefit of the doubt because they are young, and their looks start to fade and they derive less attention therefrom, things really go downhill for these cheaters.

  • thanks CL this has just cleared up something i have been wondering for the last year, my ex asked me about threesomes and swinging, now this is something that i have NEVER thought of before i was with him, he spent the next 4 years trying to talk me into it, if i said no he would go quite and with hold sex, if i said ok we have discuss it and set up a online profile, he was all over me, mmmm another red flag i by passed. any way 2014 i decided you only live once etc etc he was 40, bucket list so yes we would go ahead and try it. looking back i now see if was bullied and worn down by him. i just didn’t want to risk what i thought we had!

    he said nothing could break us, we were soul mates and solid as a rock, this would just be a bit of fun!
    we met another man and did the threesome thing for few times in 2014.

    WTF all the time he has been fucking his immature co worker and continued to do this all 2014 before i found out nearly a year to the date

    i think he did this to ease his guilt of the affair and justify his actions to him self, now his stuck with her lol

    • My ex-wife also tried to talk me into threesomes with other men within a year of us being married, and I agree this was probably to ease the guilt of the affair, because then my hands would be dirty also.

      • I don’t think it’s easing guilt though. I think it’s both a power trip (they made you do it!) and then yes, ammunition they will use against you if you discover the cheating. no guilt involved.

      • Not to be a prude , and I am pretty old etc, but it strikes me that if your spouse approaches you about bringing other people into the marriage, after the marriage has been in existence vs asking you going into it, you are ,probably, dealing with a situation where your spouse has either already, or is about to start cheating.
        I know we have discussed this at least once before. But, think about it. You are in some long term deal that was entered into with certain agreements re fidelity, and out of the blue, one of the parties approaches the other with a completely new set of terms. I suppose, if both parties’ heads are in the same place, is might be okay.
        But, it seems in many cases one party is taken completely by surprise by this. I would bet, knowing what I do now, that in most of these cases, something has been set up already with a third party or is going on already.
        I bet most of us entered into traditional marriages, and I understand that many of us may not have fully appreciated the monotony and the drudgery that may accompany this agreement ( not in all cases, but in a lot I hear about and observe). I think our media and society , in general, does a very poor job of preparing people for marriage and what it entails in terms of sacrifice. Expectations are way out of line with reality for a lot of people that tie the knot.
        So, when one spouse broaches the subject of an open marriage or bringing in another person for a threesome, I think it is a sign that the person suggesting it is about at the end of his or her tolerance for the agreement he or she entered.
        At that point, he or she should be honest and ask for a divorce before starting anything, IMO.
        I would feel nowhere near the resentment I do for my XWs had they simply done this and not stolen years of my life where I relied upon our contract to my detriment.

    • Saralou1972 and tony, I am looking back now and seeing some patterns and red flags I never put into context before. Mine put so much pressure on me at times for some really outrageous shit that I would eventually agree to something less weird just to appease (and because I was truly giving and wanted so desperately to please). Then he would use that to ratchet up his next demand. Ugh!
      For him, boundaries were just something to push. UGH! So much ugh

      • Arlo, Tony, the muse and Arnold

        i agree with all of the comments you left, i have wondered if my ex had cheated on me before last year but never had any proof and he never give me reason to think other wise, but now with the swinging thing and a nearly 1 year affair i find that hard to believe, i think he has done it before but it never blew up in his face like this time and i agree about the power thing too, i remember his face while we were swinging all smug walking around like he was top dog and yes he pushed my boundaries to limit , even suggesting we did it one more time for old time sake a month after DDay, WTF

  • I have to bring in the kids. Your husband is poisoning your family. It is as if he slips just a tad of arsenic in your drinks every day. His narcissism is toxic to all of you. This is who he is. Protect your children. Just be prepared that child support may not be forthcoming and plan ahead.

    • Okay, I’m ignorant about this, Mephista. What is Doxxing? My then (now ex) husband used provocative (not graphic) photos of me (that he took while we were alone, under the agreement they for HIS EYES ONLY) as bait to troll Craigslist Casual Encounters (and who know where else, Craigslist is the only one I caught him at), for group situations that I NEVER, EVER consented to – all without my knowledge. I still have the proof (I printed out the emails before I left), neatly tucked into a briefcase – but I kept it for ammo in case he wanted to play hard ball with the divorce. He still thinks it was all a misunderstanding (gaslighting). Is what he did Doxxing? Could I press charges if I wanted too, post-divorce? He also has a nasty habit of taking covert photos of women’s body parts while out in public (and in his workplace), without their knowledge. Two Psychologist friends and one Cop told me he was pathological (that’s obvious), predatory, and a possible menace. This is a 58-year-old man, and I was told that their behavior gets more bold as they get older (because they are losing their looks) – preying on more and more vulnerable people, perhaps even under-age girls.

      • Doxxing is an illegal practise by web trolls, usually. It is when a woman’s address details, phone number, etc are published with ehxortations to harm her-usually rape. Charming. Google ‘anita sarkezian’ for an account of one mighty woman versus a bunch of jerks that make our cheaters look benign. I think what your ex (what a turrrrrrd) did to you and Bell does constitute a similar offence, but I AM NOT a lawyer. Just a wiseass. It’s worth a google….

        It would probably be a charge of harassment. I’d keep it in the back pocket…..In case you DO need to play hardball with Shitweasel, because they DO get more entrenched, crabby and entitled as they age-a hard experience I had with my own Dad.

        And pardon the venting, have to say it somewhere….I have a shit ton of abusive emails from Mr Fab, who keeps threatening to take me to court because of how unstable and dangerous I am to our kid. We have avoided court until now, not least because making your kid testify sucks, and he knows he would lose, big time. So I feel for the merry-go-round you are on with Craigslist Charlie….I think you DO need legal advice.

        The kid in question asked to move 8000 miles away. But she went for her annual month long visit to Mr Fab. And came home asking to go back into therapy. Again. I asked why….Dada loaned her his phone, complete with titsy pics and texts from the Downgrade (who he insists she obey when she visits) dating from a full two years earlier than what he confessed to. I have recently hit him with the therapy bill, and so I got one of those, “I’ll sue you, I have proof you are crazy, you slandered me to our facebook friends”. Knowing that I do not need to explain that it isn’t slander if it is true, My reply was please can we keep the discussion financial, and if a concrete reason needs to be applied to our daughter’s mature and healthy request for objective professional help for her depression and anxiety symptoms, then the more likely reason would probably be those texts, which can be subpoenaed.

        I anticipate crickets. Hoist on his own petard, which your cheater will be too, Boudica! He’ll fuck with the wrong person somewhere along the line, it needn’t be you. Worth taking legal advice or doing some research. Never hurts to drop,a torte name in there. Or, as here, point out with no emotion whatsoever that the reason his kid needs therapy is HIM. Or, hopefully you have nothing else to do with him.

        I find that if Mr Fabulous bloviates about how criminal, deranged or unstable I am (And I will put my hand up, I DID freak out. Like. Any. Abused. Person) then either oblique reference to the facts/prior case law or some other watertight authority -in this case his own fricking phone-shuts him up pretty quick….

        all the best, Boudica Reborn! I love that moniker….
        love to to Chump Nation


        PS-I would never wish Mr Fab’s temper on anyone, but right now I am certain the Downgrade will be getting torn to shreds for sending him those pictures in the first place. Can’t be his fault, you see.


        • Thank you so much for the reply Mehphista – I’ll check into it! And I’m so sorry you have to deal with all this crap. You are so normal, so far from
          unstable – the freaking out was a natural reaction to your situation. (I freaked out too, I had told then-husband I was straight, and hopelessly monogamous right from the start, while we were just starting to date.
          He knew better!) IMO, Mr Fab is shark chum. There’s a Great White out there with his name on it….licking his razor-sharp chops. It’s just a matter of time. Big hugs to you.
          I don’t have kids with my ex (I never could have children, as
          much as I wanted them – faulty uterus). I’m thankful that I didn’t breed with Mr. Deviant Predator. And you’re right, he’ll mess with the wrong person some day. Knowing him, it might happen in the classic scene of getting caught in bed with a married or attached woman when the unsuspecting husband/partner walks in on them. After all of his sick thrill seeking, this will
          be a “thrill” he won’t welcome! (Cue in evil laugh.)

  • Sexual preferences aside, if you are banging your head against a brick wall, it will feel better when it stops.

    This is all about his gratification, and he is clearly not respecting your boundaries, and he will not change.

  • I have often wondered if there is any way for an individual to evaluate all the influences that go into the creation of one’s own sexual identity — to see what is truly your idea of fun, not what someone else thinks your idea of fun should be. I think it may be too complex for a person to figure out all the whys. Curiosity is a driving force — but just because you are curious, or because you can imagine it, does not mean you will be happy actually doing it.

    If you have been raised to “please” others, it is particularly hard to determine what you really want to do, and what you feel obliged to do. I don’t know why anyone would want to be hurt, degraded, or humiliated, but it is a recurrent theme in many sexual “fantasies”. I am guessing here, but I think it is a part of the Cluster B personality disordered way of looking at the world — to convince other people to do things they really don’t want to do — just to please them. They get off on the power of manipulating others just as much, if not more, than the actual “pleasure” from whatever activity is going on.

    All this being said — if any event is recorded in a picture, or film, or digital form, and especially if it is put on the internet, anywhere, it can be there forever. I personally worked with a woman who allowed her boyfriend to take pictures of her to “rev things up”. I think she believed it would take him away from porn, and make him concentrate on her. Actually, he just went to porn for ideas and asked her to recreate scenes he saw there — so he had to spend a lot of time “researching”. So, not only did her idea backfire, he also took possession of many unsavory pictures of her, seemingly willing and excited by all of the photo ops. These pictures went to adult porn sites on the internet, and somehow found there way to photos sent to her teenagers and ex-husband. Her family confronted her — who knows who else saw the pictures and didn’t say anything to her. How humiliating was that?

    My point is whether you are willing, or not, to engage in these activities at the moment — don’t let the event become a photo history for anyone’s use. Giving consent for a photo – for private use – is of no use if you cannot enforce the promise. You can’t make other people keep a promise, especially if they make promises they never intend to keep. All of us have regrets for moments of stupidity that happened in our lives. Be grateful if none of them were caught in a “Kodak Moment.”

    I think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg for legal problems which result from things like revenge porn being posted. It also already applies to just normal everyday stupid things kids do and post on their fake-book accounts. Schools, employers, and other government entities scan this type of “information” and make value judgments that can affect admission to college, or social clubs, or employment, or promotions. Consent was certainly never given for this type of evaluation. Many of these people have no sense of humor — and no real knowledge of who you are as a person. Personally, I think this type of behavior is very “big Brother” and should not be legal — but, it happens every day.

    So please do what CL suggests — don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do! Don’t let someone persuade you to do something you will regret, not only once, but every time the subject comes up in the future. Consent is tricky — especially if it is given when you are not in a healthy state of mind. Being love-bombed and gaslighted can cause you to make poor decisions. In Bell’s case, divorce would be the kindest gift she could give herself. If there is any way to get her hands on those original photos and destroy his digital records, she still wouldn’t be “safe”, but she might rest a little easier knowing they would not be posted in other locations (at least by him).

    • This exact thing just happened in the small town where I live…domestic violence after a husband threatened to send a sex video of wife out to friends. They got in a physical fight, he was arrested but upon his release he sent the video to numerous people anyway. Shudder. Makes me glad I’m a “prude”.

  • Accepting a threesome is waaay beyond the limit of what I could be talked into, yuk ! It was hard enough to bear a platonic threesome – and I was very afraid it would evolve into a threesome plain and simple ; can one say emotional threesome ? It’s ugly anyway when it’s forced on you.
    This is a aspect of cheating that has not been discussed much so far: involving the spouse in the cheating so that technically it’s not cheating. I’m glad to see a whole post dedicated to it.
    And I think you need to have quite a perverted mind to lure your innocent spouse into group sex and call it fun.

  • If a man wants sex with more than one woman, why does he marry? If a woman wants sex with more than one man or another gender, why does she marry? REALLY, it’s not rocket science. Stay single and screw around to your hearts content. How can a woman even think about staying with a husband who pimps her out? Sad.

    • But they don’t WANT to be single! They want ALL the advantages a committed relationship brings, AND to screw around. Why should they have to make choices, accept consequences, and respect other people’s choices as well?

      It’s all about the entitlement.

  • Sound advice, Portia.

    If my husband asked for a threesome, my right eyebrow would rise immediately regardless of my sexual preferences (personally, I can only handle one man at a time).

    He’s looking. He’s looking, elsewhere.

  • There comes a point in life where u have to deal with reality.There are people out there who enjoy having sex with people other than you.You have to ask yourself what are your values,what do you want,are you willing to stay in this toxic relationship for the rest of your life.My serial cheating ex is busy sleeping around.I’m more worried about him receiving his summons than having sleepless nights wondering where he is.I can’t worry about who is sleeping with life is too short.

  • Fake.

    Married people don’t use terms like “break up” and “since we’ve known each other” in that context. Someone sent you this to test your boundaries of It’s Not Cheating If There’s Consent.

    Somewhere, there’s a disappointed troll. A troll in a mutually-cheating, long-term, on-again/off-again “relationship”, no doubt, who gloats in her own flavour of self-righteousness when she’s [shoved out of open-house hookups because of being] pregnant.

    Do they test each new partner? I’m STDs are *just great* for newborn babies.

    • When people say my letters are too outrageous to be real, I can only respond — you should see my mail. Seriously, I wish I could post every letter. I’m not saying I can’t be snowed (I am, after all, a chump), but there are so many messed up stories out there. Hell, my chump story is messed up. My husband’s is.

      If I think I can address an issue that speaks to many people, I’ll answer it. To me, this letter illustrates the issue that opening up your marriage does NOT prevent infidelity. Bad character makes cheaters. Not frustrations with monogamy.

      Also, someone may read this letter who had their sexual boundaries pushed beyond a place they’re comfortable at, to appease a cheater. Well, if I just have sex like a porn star, if I were more game…

      I’m not saying don’t spice up your sex life, I’m saying that doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with why cheaters cheat.

      You can be the hottest person around — you’re not two people. You’re not different.

      You can be the gamest, most open person — doesn’t mean you cannot be played.

      Real or not, my answers are real.

      • I know they are… and you held true, of course, to the message.

        And that’s why I say there’s a disappointed troll somewhere. 😉 You addressed the real issues and didn’t give her behavior the negative attention she was doubtlessly expecting.

        She played her hand and you took it and raised her Integrity. Poor “chump.” (And I still hold that she’s only a “chump” when she’s on the receiving end. Because I’m bitter like that. 😉 )

        • Maybe I’m just sensitive (chump, after all), but I’m curious about the vitriol here. I’m reading this, and it seems very judgmental against the OP (who I think is probably the real deal), and I can’t figure out why. Perhaps you have more background information than I am seeing, or maybe we are just reading the letter very differently.

          Full disclosure: I am sexually adventurous. I’ve willingly and happily participated in a few threesomes. I identify as heterosexual, but I also like kissing girls once in a blue moon. Hey, go figure. I would probably be described as a bit of a wild thing by those who know me well, and I’m great with that. My sexual identity leans toward “I’m ok, you’re ok. If it ain’t illegal and it sounds fun, let’s try it.”

          I have also been cheated on. I am a full-on chump, complete with all the accompanying devastation, and I am most definitely NOT a cheater. In fact, my sexual ethics lean toward the extremely conservative (i.e., I don’t even think men and women who are attached to someone should have close friendships with those of the opposite sex). Ethics have nothing to do with sexual tastes or preferences…ethics are just ethics. Cheating is about integrity (the lack thereof), and a person can be the middle of a sex sandwich on Saturday and still be chumped on Sunday.

          • Involving the health of your children is a hot button for me.

            “Let’s be sexually adventurous with other people!” is a different matter when you can easily pick up STDs from those other, untested people and pass them on to your newborn.

            I was reading along just fine until that point.

            • And now you are making negative assumptions about Mighty Me to attack her. You accuse the OP/LW of being a troll, but you are the person making personal attacks and introducing straw man arguments.

              • To me, “try a threesome. Being bisexual, I admit I enjoyed it” is coming from a floozy, not a decent person. Unless she is very young and making sexual experiments (around 16 / 20 most people are dumb, they drink themselves into oblivion, they fall for any good looking person etc.)… And the rest of the letter is full of “F@@K”, not an appropriate language either. To me, she does not fit in the chump category. I hesitate between the trailer park bang-anything-that-moves kind or the hip urban debauchery kind. In both cases, I feel very little compassion for the person who wrote the letter, unlike all other times, when it was a decent, caring, loving, compassionate person who got cheated on.
                Sorry, but I join insistonhonesty as a “terrible person” here.
                On top of that, I do have male friends who will never be anything but friends because there is no attraction but intellectual likeness, we met at shool (where there were very few girls) and someone who exchanges fluids with whatever but thinks intersex friendship is wrong makes me explode in an aggressive laughter. Be happy that my English is not good enough to use other words.

              • ChumpFromF and insistonhonesty – personally think the letter’s real. I have lived with a man who always tried to get more into the bedroom than just us. He did send out pictures to entice people without my consent or knowledge and I never tried a threesome in my life nor gave indication that I would do so –

                I don’t understand why either of you people think that it couldn’t be real. Even if she wasn’t real – what’s the deal? There are 7 billion people in this world – all with different sexual orientations. There’s a right way and a wrong way?

                Why do you have to be so mean? Why can’t you simply say – I’m not sure this person is real or not if that’s how you feel? Why do you have to go into hate mode and bash the OP?

                This woman came here for support and help and she’s getting it – but what she doesn’t need is cruelty.

                If she is real, why would you treat another human being that way?

              • Fuck it, I’ll bite.
                Yep insistonhonesty, you’re a bad person. No kibbles from passive-aggressive behaviour from me.

            • insistonhonesty, I doubt you are a horrible person. I just didn’t get any of that from Bell’s letter. She states she agreed to one threesome. We can assume it was with a woman, because she explicitly states she (Bell) is bisexual. She doesn’t say it was unprotected, she doesn’t say what level of participation she had…nothing. She just says she agreed to a threesome at some point and had fun.

              In what way is this endangering her children? Everyone in the encounter may have been tested beforehand. Everyone may have practiced safer sex. We just don’t know. But to assume this woman is a danger to her children and cannot be supported here because she made a sexual decision outside of your values is not what I understand this site to be about.

              Then she got cheated on again, and she stayed with him. We could have a whole discussion on why some of us do that (and don’t so many of us do exactly that? Stay?), but Bell is no “guiltier” than many other posters here. She stayed with a cheater and attempted reconciliation. Then she discovered he was using her images and name to troll for more sexual encounters.

              I just don’t see how she doesn’t qualify as a chump, as much as anyone else here.

              • Fresh morning, complete with a meltdown to get my shakes out. Coffee, fresh air, quiet.

                It wasn’t about threesomes or thinking she wasn’t a chump, in my mind… I did just snap and projected a personally-known experience onto her. I shouldn’t have. I literally just cut off someone in my life who did what I projected onto the OP. She is a selfish, manipulative “woman” with a very similar tone, for lack of a better word, to the OP. It took me *right there* and I lost it. My protective UBT kicked in, having been on high alert for the past year with this person in my RL.

                I’m sorry, Bell. :/

              • insistonhonesty used a classic manipulation tactic. Rather than discussing whatever issues people may have had with her remarks, she reacted as if people were calling her names, thus putting anyone with an issue on the defensive and into the role of an aggressor. Now instead of criticizing her remarks, people are supposed to reassure her that they don’t think she’s a terrible person. Hmm. Where have we chumps experienced this behavior before?

      • So true. For a long time I thought.. if I were only more interesting in bed, if I only wore high heels more, if I were only less tired and more focused on him instead of our kids.. blah blah blah. Truth is, none of that would have prevented him from doing this. He does these things because he wants to- because he’s selfish. That’s it.. no other reason. It isn’t because you are inadequate, not pretty enough, not sexy enough, not loving enough, don’t make meatloaf for dinner enough.. it has nothing to do with any of those things. It’s THEM. They are screwed up. THEY CHANGE. We go on being loyal partners, taking the good with the bad, living life, raising kids, wiping the noses and asses, and they start telling themselves (often with the urging of a whore on the side) that they are worth “more” and they deserve “more”. That this boring mundane existence can’t be “all there is”. My STBX is all about himself. Talked to one of his family members yesterday she said all he talks about is himself.. what he’s doing, his place, how he is going to start “dating”.. like a 16 year old boy. No mention of me.. his loyal wife that he threw away like trash. No mention of the boys whose lives he has thrown into chaos- their emotional state. No mention of the pain he’s caused not only us, but extended family, friends, etc. It’s all about him and his new fabulousness.

        The thing is.. that isn’t the secret to happiness. Happiness doesn’t come from obtaining more pieces of ass, or more things, or wallowing in self gratification.. it comes from loving others. It comes from giving to others. It comes from within you. I think a lot of these people are at the root unhappy with themselves and that’s why they keep looking for stuff to fill that “void”.. whether it be sex, more material possessions, or more attention.. at the root, they aren’t happy with themselves. And the ironic thing is, they push the most authentic people in their lives away. I think some are sorry down the road, but some are just too selfish to ever do an ounce of self reflection.

        At any rate.. we chumps have to know when to fold the cards and walk away.

      • CL, regarding your ‘cheating is character’ point: we spent a lot of time in therapy (I really was traumatised, our marriage was not terrible, I had no idea) examining the ‘split self’. I was told ‘whoever he was married to, he would have cheated on. This is not about you’.

        • So true. My therapist said: you have to look at his “trajectory” … his path through life. I didn’t know until after D-Day, but he had cheated on every woman he was with prior to me. And was freeloading as well.

      • CL, you have some spooky sixthsense way of posting topics that speak to just exactly what is bothering me just exactly when I need to hear it. Idk how you do it! It must be that these are universal truths and we can apply them anywhere but damn! You are scary good at it.

        • “Just because you’re game and open up your marriage with some rules, doesn’t mean a cheater is going to play by those rules.”
          This this this THIS THIS!!!!!

    • I have no doubt this is real… weirdly, the details and the tone of this story are similar almost to a T to a friend’s marriage woes. I’m actually wondering if she wrote it.

      • I think that most elements of the story are real. I also think that she actively lied (not married but saying she is makes her look better, in her own mind) and lied by omission (she’s left out her side… the nitty gritty part where she’s betrayed him as well. Likely, it’s been the entire time… except when she’s employed in growing and birthing and maintaining small people.)

        I think they’re both unkind, selfish people. And she only exposed his selfishness and didn’t mention hers, as a kind of assumptive credit/ego kibble for herself.

        Like when a co-worker of mine played the “I’m getting divorced because my husband beat me and our baby!” pity card. She conveniently left out the part where the one-time “beating,” when further explained by HER, was that she unloaded the dishwasher AT him for not getting her car’s oil changed (one of many violent outbursts she has displayed at MANY people; her family doesn’t speak to her at all), she blocked the kitchen door so he couldn’t get out, he shoved her aside and stormed through the door… but she’d left the baby in the other room, so when he shoved the door open to get out, the baby was pushed between the wall and door.

        She had him arrested for that. His face and arms were bruised and skin shredded from the broken dishes. He was released almost immediately, when the police figured out what was going on.

        Months later, she gleefully told this tale to us while drunk. And promptly “forgot” when she was sober. Then called us all liars and later told the manager that we were “out to get her,” when complaining that people were ignoring her and it made for a hostile work environment.

        You’re an evil, narcissistic bitch and no one likes you. Because of that, people who know you don’t want to interact with you unless necessary. That’s called self-preservation, not abuse.

        • “I also think that she actively lied (not married but saying she is makes her look better, in her own mind) and lied by omission (she’s left out her side… the nitty gritty part where she’s betrayed him as well. Likely, it’s been the entire time… except when she’s employed in growing and birthing and maintaining small people.)”

          Huh? How are you reading that? We don’t know if she lied by omission. I can’t only respond to what people write me. I have no idea what the entire story is. I don’t see any clues here that she’s a cheater.

          Just like polyamory doesn’t protect you from cheating, doesn’t also mean that polyamorist cannot be chumps. All it takes is to trust someone and have them violate the rules of your relationship.

        • I often read between the lines of CL’s letters as well, but I’m not seeing any of the maliciousness on Bell’s part that you’re seeing here.

          • Some people are more sensitive / intuitive than others. The maliciousness between the lines shocked me as well.

            • I don’t think intuition or sensitivity have anything to do with claiming to be able to know factual information ( such as that the OP cheated on her husband or that she was not married). That is just making shit up.
              So, the woman writes a little crudely. We go from that to that she has cheated for years and her use of the phrase “broken up” vs divorced is clear evidence that she was never married?
              See, this is why I have no faith in our jury system. People take crap from their own lives and just project it onto others.

              • I agree. The longer I live, the more I find out about the way other people live their lives, and how almost anything is possible.

        • Insistonhonesty, you need to stop gazing in a crystal ball and making LW feel unwelcome, the shit you are reading into this has nothing to do with her and everything to do with your own issues. Therapy, you need it.

            • Most of us take the letters at face value, or at least strive to be understanding rather than attack the LW. It’s hard for people to reach out like that, harder still if someone immediately bashes them for lying with no real grounds. Be kind first, it doesn’t cost you anything.

              • Insistonmorehonesty – ‘you’re just an evil narcissist bitch and nobody likes you.’
                Whoa. Where did that come from?? If you meant by ‘nobody likes you’, that you are speaking for ME? Well, fuck you.

                I think we’re all pretty jaded here and most would agree that this post was sent with honesty. Besides, who is really going to portray ALL that happened in their marriage in a letter to C/L? Not enough space for all the details.

                You need to go put some boxing gloves on and try to hit yourself into a frenzy of compassion and empathy.

      • I agree with Lulu. I dated a guy who (before I ended things) told me how he had asked his wife to let him watch her having sex with another guy while they were on holiday in Eastern Europe. Apparently if he got her drunk enough, she would do it, and did.

        I was so uttterly reviled by his callous descriptions that it gave me chills. His wife, by the way, had divorced him over it, but he apparently still could not understand “what her problem was”. That was the first time (at age 50) that I had encountered such a person, after a very sheltered and conservative married life. His own adult daughter actually laughed when she commented “oh yeah, Dad’s a bit twisted, but he’s good company”.

        I don’t doubt the OP is real. There are websites here in the UK where one can easily set up group hook-ups and lots of couples looking for single women and men willing to participate. The encounters usualy involve the third party being a paid participant, if you get my drift. It is a sub culture that from my observation, is populated by mostly fairly marginal people whom mid western, conservative folks would not gel with. This differs from the more established swingers clubs where one generally goes as a couple.

        No my cup of tea! Just the thought of sharing body odour is mind boggling,

        • I’m often shocked that people who treat others this way will speak so openly about it. I think that the issue is that they 1) don’t see others, even their own spouses, as people. and 2) Since those people are not people, but objects to be used to their advantage, why should they not use those objects anyway they want? Why should anyone be surprised or upset that they would talk about their “successes” in getting what they want?

  • Love the meme.. might send that to my lawyer. LOL

    Bell, your H is a selfish asshole. You deserve better.

  • You must love yourself the way your “husband” loves himself: completely, totally, and to the exclusion of all others. We are not raised to love ourselves and develop unhealthy mechanisms to survive. The inner voice we have gets co-opted at an early age. We never listen to our inner voice as it gets drowned out by external voices. You have a child with this cretin. If you currently cannot muster up the outrage for yourself, then please consider the awful possibility that he could put your child’s photo and information on the web to solicit situations that don’t bear thinking about. Please check out Thomas Sheridan’s work and heed the advice of ChumpLady. You really don’t need someone else to be a complete and happy human. Please discover the inner “you” and fiercely love and protect her. I guarantee you that you will be happier in the long run. Life is a zero sum game. It is what we ultimately make of it. Start by cleaning your life of the barnacle you married.

      • Exactly my point. Narcissists and psychopaths love themselves in a society that tries to drum self love outwards not inwards. The inner voice of these losers is like a constant cheering squad, even when it is obvious that they are behaving badly. Normal personalities need to learn to love themselves as wholeheartedly as narcs & paths. Course, that is just my considered opinion. Xp

    • She should love herself the way her husband loves himself? Uh, no, we’re not trying to create more selfish, entitled, dishonest narcissists!

      Chumps becoming abusers is not the solution!

      • I don’t think she meant for chumps to become abusers. The way I read it is if you love and respect yourself, I think you’re less likely to get entangled with people who have no respect for you.

        If I respected myself a little more I wouldn’t have stuck around doing the pick me dance for three years post infidelity and truth be told I probably wouldn’t have chose the ex as life partner at all. That’s a little easier to see in hindsight but there were red flags that I chose to ignore because I obviously didn’t think I deserved better.

        Nothing wrong with self respect and self love. No one should take it to the same level as narcissists and cheaters but you have to have a healthy amount to attract healthy people.

        That’s just my opinion of course.

  • This type of behavior is part of the problem in the hypersexual society we live in.

    You seem to be crossing the lines, while still trying to draw the lines. If you go over the lines, usually the lines become more and more blurry.

    • Rainy, I don’t agree that by deciding FOR YOURSELF where YOUR lines are, it’s making it harder to draw lines or enforce them. We can all choose our boundaries, and expect others to respect them. Dishonesty is the problem, not people’s sexual preferences.

      • I agree entirely with you KarenE. It doesn’t matter what our sexual preferences are, if we want to say ‘this line says it’s unacceptable’ then that should be that. To say otherwise is to state that a prostitute cannot be raped, and that is patently untrue.

        Yes, society is openly ‘hypersexual’ nowadays, BUT – we didn’t invent the stuff – our society just talks more openly about it these days.

        Sex isn’t EVERYTHING in a loving, ‘romantic’ relationship and if a couple feel secure enough to explore polyamory within their marriage, it doesn’t, for me, follow on that they’ve abandoned their rights to set personal boundaries within that context.

        Disrespect and dishonesty is the problem for Bell, NOT, IMO, that she’d enjoyed a threesome with her husband. She did not give up her right to decide whether or not her details went on the internet – they are her details, she was explicit in her wishes. To state there are ‘blurred lines’ is to also state that women who are considered ‘dressed provocatively’ deserve to be sexually attacked. NO! Follow that line and we’ll all be dressed in Bhurkas and having to be ‘chaparoned’ by a male relative.

        If you tell someone ‘I do not consent to this’ then if that person persists it is abuse. Full stop.

          • LOL – just realised I typed Bhurkas not Burqas (or burkas) – then had a surreal image of all women dressed in Gurkhas – those noble Nepalese soldiers – good gracious! Hoping my argument hasn’t gone up in flames because of a stupid typo! 😀

            • Jayne, you were well-reasoned and well-written! One little typo doesn’t change the fact that you are one very, very smart and articulate woman. Oh, and I’m not hitting on you (there might be some confusion because of what I posted above to insistonhonesty) – lol!

  • It is not for me to judge what people do in their relationship. But when something is done behind the others back, then it is wrong. If someone is going to cheat there is nothing one can do to stop them….

    • That is the key, IMO, David. Very succinct. It is a form of theft, theft of time and opportunity from the BS.

  • CL – I died when I saw today’s cartoon. I love it. I know how you feel Bell – my ex was on AFF looking for hook ups for years – even went so far as to invite a couple to our home for supper one night and spring it on me as I walked through the door after working all day. All this, and I NEVER TOLD HIM I WAS INTO THREESOMES. I didn’t give my consent and I’m not really into that sort of thing. Never have been, never did but somehow he thought that if I was put into the “middle” of it so to speak that I’d go for it? What an idiot. I was so pissed. He gave these people that he doesn’t know from a hole in the wall our home address? Our children’s safety is at sake and all he cares about is his dick?

    Just another memory that makes me so glad to be free of him. I was surely the big chump because I put on a smile, cooked dinner and proceeded to bring up every asshole thing my ex ever did to me pretending like it was a “funny” story… He had to listen to it all night long – and believe me – I’m hilarious when I want to be. The couple left with dinner and nothing else, I may add – although I did give her my recipe for bruscetta.

    Your husband’s thinking of no one but himself. He’s selfish – knows exactly what he’s doing and you really need to do something about it. I agree with CL and the cartoon. Good Luck!

  • Anything you did before is history. You are being held hostage for those actions and he has no right to do that to you. Leave that behind as he damn well should.

    Looking at the picture as it is today – what he is doing to you is criminal. If some past boyfriend were to post nude photos of you, especially with the same intent, wouldn’t you take action?

    He is lying to you about his intent, blaming you, gaslighting, and cheating. Furthermore, he is using you and your photos illegally.

    It’s time for you to protect yourself, both legally and physically. Don’t have sex with him any more. Get tested. Hire a good attorney.

    This is going to hurt like hell for a while. But a necessary surgery always does until the healing begins. All the best to you.

  • Bell, you seem to be waiting for him to cross some invisible line of “really bad stuff” that will somehow give you permission to leave him. The problem with this is that in the process, really stuff happens to you, and it could escalate beyond what you’re prepared for. It’s the classic “frog in the pot” scenario, he has slowly been violating your boundaries in increasingly horrible ways, so you don’t notice the escalation. Trust me, bad stuff has already happened, just by nature of his posting your info and picture online and opening you up to danger.

    So, Bell, where’s your line?

    -You find out that he’s given you a potentially fatal STD? Which, given his behavior, could be one blood test away.

    – He sets up a “surprise appointment” with someone without telling you, so you walk into this situation unaware – forcing you to make a decision that could harm you physically and emotionally on the spot?

    – Some crazy person from the internet figures out how to locate you from his posts/photos, finds you and hurts you or your children.

    I don’t want to use scare tactics, but honestly, this is so freaking dangerous. Please don’t stay in this situation one more day. He has violated your trust, your boundaries, your consent in so many ways. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done in the past. You made your wants/lines very clear. You’ve sent no mixed signals. He’s just ignoring what doesn’t suit him. People who love you and want good things for you don’t ignore what’s important to you.

  • I echo CL here. This isn’t a question of your sexuality or how good your mutual sex life is/was.

    The a question is: are you OK your husband’s actions? Yes or No. From your letter it says – his actions sent you into a rage. So, I take that as a NO.

    After 3 “corrections”, it isn’t going to get any better. It is going to get weirder.

    I am not sure if this will help, but in my now single life, if the bf is into more kinky than I want — I talk about it. And, if it is a must have, then it becomes a deal-breaker. Sure it sounds simple enough, but it isn’t. I know that long term it will become the deal breaker for them…because it is what makes them feel ‘fulfilled’. (Sorry, I can’t think of a better word.)

    Bell, he’s changed the rules of the game on you.

    • Yep, and that is where this letter-genuine or not-has a value. Mr Fab got kinkier and kinkier as time went on, more and more coercive each time. He probably thought it was okay because I went to a bondage club with him ONCE. Didn’t thrill me, so never went back. Decent martinis, though.

      But in the twisted, narc cheater mental gymnasium, slap and tickle once means carte blanche forever. Ugh. Triggery. He got a bit rapey at one point. And it certainly felt like rape after I found out I had been having sex with him not knowing about his side piece.

      Bell, this asshole thinks you are his fuckpuppet. I don’t think you are okay with that. I certainly am not.

      File. Have his doxxing/harassment be a matter of record. You are going to need to protect your children from this weasel…

      best of luck, Chump Nation is Mighty!

    • Arnold, are you saying that anybody who agrees at one point to any sexual activity that might be considered ‘uncommon’ is agreeing to any and all sexual activity in the future, with no further consultation? Or that if they have consented to that ‘less common’ activity at one moment, they can’t complain if their partner acts like they’ve consented to anything at any time?

      I’m not ok with that.

    • HoustonDad, watch the tea video, just because the OP agreed to one encounter doesn’t mean she gave permission for her husband to post her info on the Internet and go to prostitutes. There are many variants in marriages, all of them require trust and mutual consent. The OP says she was very specific in what she’d agreed to do and only one time. Her husband is using that in an attempt to destroy her stated boundaries and blame her for his lying to her and for sending her data out into the world without her consent.

      • Datdamwuf and KarenE – I don’t think HoustonDad was condoning it, I think he was simply trying to say – you woke a sleeping lion. Although in poor Bell’s case, the guy was a cheat before she even agreed to it – so him asking her for the threesome, was just him almost sending her a message: If you do this, I won’t cheat – sort of thing.

        It’s ridiculous of course, but it happens. Chumps are pretty screwed up with their thinking.

        I know for a fact that my nephew bugged and bugged and bugged his wife to have a threesome with his friend and him and she finally broke down and did it. Well, wouldn’t you know it, the friend fell in love with my nephew’s wife and their family broke up because of it, but my nephew and his wife are still disfunctional and toxic together. Be careful what you wish for eh?

        Screwed up a family and a friendship all in the name of “excitement” – sure hope it was worth it.

        • You’re getting it. I’m old enough that I’ve known a few swinger couples in my life. They’re all divorced. All of them. If you ask them they all say the same thing. They never should have opened that door. Once you open the door to not being exclusive to each other then all bets are off. Some things are better left to fantasy.

          • Houston dad…ditto what you just said. I’m old enough to have met some too. Dead marriages every one of them. Only bullshitting themselves.

            • Regardless of the wisdom of consenting to swinging ( and I have no knowledge of any couples who have engaged in it), there is no justification for the husband here to solicit partners for his wife without her knowledge or consent.

  • UG. This brings back painful memories. I always felt pressure to be more open sexually and I’m no prude, but I too was persuaded beyond my comfort zone to try a threesome when we were living together before we were married and I’ve kicked myself many times for ignoring that bright red flag. No telling how much time he spent researching that on Craigslist before and after. I’m still working on learning to say no in therapy. Great post CL.

  • In my opinion this one all boils down to:

    “Trampling your boundaries, no matter how far you stretch them, is part of the fun for him. It’s disrespectful, dangerous, and it’s a huge power trip.”

    It’s about having power over you and degrading you without your knowledge, regardless of any sexual situation you have or will have, that’s not love! It’s time to go. Join me on the Trek to Meh!

  • The reason I commented about how hard it is to decide what you really like and what you have been convinced you “should” like is that there are soooooo many influences about what you will do one day, but may not do another. I did not think about it IN GREAT DETAIL until I was 45 years old. I knew what I believed my preferences were, and what I believed was OK, but I had never questioned why.

    That is a conversation you have to have with yourself, before you can ever have it with someone else. I don’t think most of us do that — because we don’t know how important that self determination is until our core value system has been violated. There may be a great deal of variance to what activities one person prefers as opposed to another person — I am sure I did not have the right conversations before I got married. I didn’t think I had to — that’s how big of a chump I was. I thought promising to be faithful was enough, that that is what wedding vows were designed to do.

    However, I have learned a great deal about sexuality and its varieties as I have gotten older. I am not sure I was mature enough to understand it when I first became sexually active — I had to learn some things the hard way. I just know that some “voice” inside my head told me “OK” or “NOT OK” whenever I found myself in that situation. I don’t care what anyone else WANTS to do, I only care about the pressure they feel they can put on me to comply with whatever it is. I feel I should always have the right to say NO. I think that people who coerce others into sexual activity through force or drugs, or alcohol or undue influence (threats of job loss, or abandonment) are despicable people. I do not trust anyone with intimate photos of me, and taking them would make me feel uncomfortable, not sexy. I don’t want pictures of my SO’s private parts either, and I don’t want a three-some or to attend an orgy or to swing. I don’t care what other people do — that is just what I want to do, or not do. I will never be with another person who does not respect my boundaries, even if it means I may be alone the rest of my life. It is MY CORE, and it is IMPORTANT TO ME.

    If someone disordered wants to lie to me in order to have the appearance and security of a relationship, but secretly wants to slip around and be with others, or wants me to change my preferences, and starts trying to wear me down with pressure — that person is changing the original deal that was made. It is like a contract — a deal is a deal, and to change it without the other’s consent is a deal breaker. It is that simple for me.

  • I like CL’s last comment; that this is about power. It is not only the ‘strange’ that your partner wants, but he must have it in dishonest ways. That is what makes it seriously effed up. It means also that it could spread to other parts of your life, kids, money, chores, whatever. I can’t imagine a guy like this is giving and emotionally honest in other areas of your life. When someone (him) gets in the habit of gas lighting to get what he wants and others (you) get in the habit of dealing with his gas lighting like it is a reasonable thing (e.g. by having arguments, ‘but honey i told you three times its not okay with me, didn’t i tell you, i told you, you know i told you’. whether you’re pacifying or yelling, by engaging with his gas lighting you make it legitimate, as something worth engaging with. The truth is that anyone that consistently makes you doubt the evidence of your own eyes and memory or behaves in ways that are outside the pale of normal living, the more you stay, the less of a grip you have on reality). Eventually it undermines your ability to make decisions and validate yourself. That hole is hard to dig yourself out of.

  • Just as an aside on the critically important concept of “pay attention to what they do, pay no attention to what they say” – it so happens that during the rocky reconciliation after my husband’s affair, I lost my voice for a couple of weeks (symbolic, now in retrospect). I couldn’t talk at all and wasn’t in any mood to scribble arguments either. Even tho he never shut up, this had the paradoxical effect of making me observe and reflect on his actions very very closely. Somehow, once I stopped talking I was able to really see how he was behaving. I’m really grateful for that episode now, as it moved me further thru the decision making process than any discussion or argument ever did. After that, I got my voice back in more ways than one! Then I decided and acted, and didn’t need to argue about it all. I was just done, full stop.

  • When I boil it all down in my head it keeps coming up…he continues to do something that is humiliating, hurtful and dangerous to you. You continue to say “Stop it, I don’t want you to do that.” He continues to do it anyway. (Great big unspoken FU there.)

    My next move would be to go find myself the nastiest pit bull of a lawyer that I could afford and nail cheater ass to the wall in every way I could.

    Time to let your inner bitch come out to play, Girlfriend. You deserve much, much better.

  • Sexual experimentation does not equal emotional maturity. I agree 100% with ‘not thinking about these things in detail until older’.

    And, the analogy about Pandora’s box is compelling, too.

    “The gifts given by the gods were put in a beautiful box and Zeus presented it to Pandora warning her never to open it. If somebody gave you a beautiful box loaded with gifts and said don’t ever open it, what would you do? Well, Pandora did the same thing. She opened it and saw to her horror all the evils of this world escape.”

    So, you do a three way with your husband and that unleashed a trail of lies, hook-ups, hookers, exposure to STD, boundary-crossing, pimping, publishing, and abandonment of family, marriage, & friendship… the list is long.

    Bell -What’s really telling here for me is the banging the hooker while you are pregnant – at the height of vulnerable – and when most in need of a strong partner.

    Your husband is not a strong person. Using photos and posting profiles without consent sounds like a high school sexting event. -Completely juvenile. But with very adult consequences.

    I come from an era where you don’t take someone’s picture without permission much less publish it. Times have changed, for sure, but as others have pointed out having something like this “out there” on the web can affect many aspects of your life and future. It’s a horrible Pandora’s Box leverage thing to do to someone, too.

    -Wishing you strength as you sort through it.

    • Very well said ChumpBolero. The thought of anybody, even a trusted husband (cough) in this day and age can find these photos or videos online (kids!) and the worst is finding them online forever exists, w/o your permission.
      I’m not condemning anybody for making sex tapes of your love-affair with your spouse.
      Normal, right?
      Is it the woman that come up with these ideas or the man?
      What do you really want to do after a hot steamy night of making sexy – watch it the next day on video?
      Personally, I’m satisfied for just the great memory of the hot sex only me and my partner did.

      This shit goes into dangerous territory when you publish things WWW for the world to see, w/o permission from your spouse/partner.

      It scares me what chumps are willing to do to keep these assholes in their lives. Just, WHY?

      I’d be so livid that if there wasn’t a law against this, I would do my best to make one happen.
      What is more personal than what goes on in your PRIVATE bedroom?

      Off my box!

  • Bell-

    As always I think CL nailed it. You have to know what you are willing to tolerate. If it isn’t okay with you then the conversation should be over. I’ve never been one to think that non-consensual anything (especially anything sexual) is Okay under any circumstances. It actually seems like a no-brainer to me but that is clearly not the case for everyone. When you put it in the same context as the cartoon like “forcing tea” on someone who doesn’t want to drink tea, it’s like a “consensual sex for dummies” kind of thing. It makes it even more glaringly obvious that doing something without someone’s consent is even more outrageously wrong than you once believed.

    You’ve drawn the line in the sand for your husband but he keeps jumping over it. It’s incumbent on you to decide if you want to be with someone who disrespects you by doing that. You don’t need permission to enforce your boundaries. It’s your right. If this is a deal breaker for you, it’s also your right to leave.

    Whatever decision you make however should NOT take his feelings into account. He’s certainly not considering yours.

  • Sex is such a funny thing… And forgive me… I just dont have the education nor the language to express this well. What I am trying to say is, sex is almost like a drug. Some try it and its ok… Happy with the high … Dont try to get a better high… Satisfied. Others need to keep chasing the dragon. Its such a fine line to what is normal and what is considered deviant. And that line is blurry at best.
    We have placed such a high value on sex in a relationship, and true it is a bonding experience but for many its just feeding a need. Far as I know you dont die from not having sex. But I am not full of testosterone … What do I know?! Back to society… I understand we as humans hierarchy of needs… Most fairly basic. Dont believe sex is included, but love is. Love feels good . Sex feels good ( at least it should) Is sex love? No. Its purpose in the big picture was procreation… And now its recreation. Recreational hypersexualized everything! Doesnt seem like ther is a product that hasnt alluded to some aspect of sex( over generalizing but you get my drift) Like M&Ms!!! Who knew? Fucking green M&Ms. And we buy shit cause it makes us look better, smell better, get tighter, lighter and why… So we are attractive. We have been trained to think this way. You get a fancy car… U are getting laid… Whitening toothpaste… U are getting laid…. Glad trash bags? Your husband will flex his big brawny arms to show u how much he can carry. …. U into bed… Cause your getting laid for buying the right brand of trash bags. And ya know what you dont see on fucking TV condom ads. God forbid we make it real for people. That would take all the fun out of it.
    Where am I going with this stupid rant? It seems like our entitled fucks get fed this shit on the daily… They live off that stew. its in their brains… I want it, gotta have it, and i dont care who I take down to get my share of pussy pie. I deserve it.
    Not sure if it plays into the Narc personality type… But ya gotta think it does. Its not like our cheaters were playing cards or checkers with their APs .. Nope… They are fucking them sideways. And its not love … Its sex. Sex that drive these mother fuckers. They trade their whole lives for it. Children, careers and families… For the drug.

    • Except that… sex is an exchange of energy and may, just may do more to your soul and body than the mere friction. The fact it is considered so important in all religions and all occult practices may be an indication.

      • If sex is an exchange of energy…. Then what energy is drawn from whores and random hook ups off of craigs list? Its pure friction… Or should i say fiction…
        The exchange of energy exists if one absorbs the other… Dont call dumping your wad in some dirty whore an enlightened experience… In any religious context. Masturbation is considered sex…. Is that circular? And if so u would think that would be the selfh fulfillment any Narc would need since they are the shit.

    • Substitute “dick steak” for “pussy pie”, and you have my XW’s. Chasing dick like there is no tomorrow. Perhaps it is testosterone that is at the bottom of all this. Both started cheating in their mid 30’s, once the estrogen/testosterone ratio started to invert a bit.
      For some strange reason, a lot of the cheating propaganda suggests that cheating women are more interested in some sort of emotional bond vs pure sex, as opposed to men. That seems like bullshit to me, as many of the women I know, and especially those who cheat, have voracious sexual appetites. In an honest woman, that is a good thing, IMO.
      I think this whole need/desire to put cheating women’s desires into the “looking for emotional attachment” box, is based on some weird feeling of being threatened by women’s sexual drive.
      Let face it , after ,say, age 40 or so, women have much greater sexual capacity than men. They are multi orgasmic and require no recovery time etc.
      There is a reason for the recent cougar phenomena. I have no idea why it has worked out this way from an evolutionary standpoint, but there seems to be a physical capacity mismatch between same age partners of different genders.

      • Didnt mean to leave the dirty whore wives out of this… Its not a testosterone vs estrogen arguement…so please substitute anywhere along my sleep deprived rant. I only speak from my experience and dont mean to slam men… Just the ones that have fucked up my life with their pursuits of the life saving energy of some strange! Friction does not involve emotion and for most of these hormone driven fucks its strictly friction. Friction is energy….. One sided. Not some tantric exchange… That would involve feelings.

  • I think the emotion of malice of forethought is a turn on for cheaters of both sexes. And I think that component is part of what drives a cheater’s appetite. It has very little to do with love or soul connection. Add to that sex drugs, hormone tweaking, and entitlement to the profile and you have a different kind of animal with a voracious sexual appetite. And, then that appetite, that capacity for illicit and / or abstract sex becomes the religion.

  • Well.

    That was an enlightening read.

    And a lot of it was really validating and helpful. Especially to you, chump lady. Thank you so much for your response.

    Yes, I am a real person. And yes…this is a real story.

    For those who are shocked, I can’t help but suspect you are

    1) likely of a Judeo-Christian background (even if you yourself aren’t religious, the influence of Judeo-Christian cultural concepts around monogamy and sexuality have likely left their mark on you)

    2) heterosexual

    3) cisgendered.

    I come from an Islamic background where polygamy and polyamory are not uncommon. I know those raised in western countries will hear that and say, “ooooh that makes a lot of sense…”

    But what none of you understand is how layered and intricate the various ways Islam has influenced the way people go about relationships, especially for those of us on the LGBT+ spectrum.

    And while my husband (non-Islamic background, American who was raised catholic) and I agreed to have a monogamous *marriage*, our sexual proclivities are a bit different than those of the above outlined demographic might be able to conceive of, but believe me, we aren’t unique by any means.

    Yes, my primary sexuality is to women. If that makes some of you uncomfortable, So be it. Believe it or not, one of our (many) bonding points between my husband and I was our mutual attraction to women; I appreciated that he didn’t judge me for it, didn’t automatically assume he’d get to screw me and my (heterosexual) best friend or get to even ogle women in front of me, unlike other men (and women) I’ve dated in the past. It was just another element to *me* that I felt he acknowledged, but didn’t get all “Misogynicstic White American Male Of Privilege” over. At least not until now (which is why in a heart broken drunken rage of despair, I emailed chump lady).

    I’m biracial, bicultural, bisexual, atheist (though my family historically identified as Muslim on one side and Christian on the other and many of my relatives today continue to do so) and a citizen of more than one nation; I’ve had exposure to ways of living and loving and thinking than most Americans have. And it’s influenced my outlook on life, love and sexuality. I don’t apologize for this and I don’t expect most of you to understand.

    Anyways, the first time (that I know of) that my husband cheated on me was in Las Vegas while he was out with his friends for a bachelor party. He was drunk and made out with a girl at a club and fondled her. My first cousin was with them and stopped the interaction and left it to my husband to tell me before he did. I didn’t know if my husband only told me because he had a witness and was coerced, or because he didn’t want to keep it from me, which is why I almost broke up with him the first time.

    Fast forward a few years, and I’ve had twin babies and my body just isn’t what it used to be. I’m feeling a little insecure, slightly depressed and we are going through the issues many new parents do; sleep deprivation, constant panic and worry that we might not boil the pacifier at the right temp and a baby will die of cholera (not really, but first time parents everywhere can relate), fighting, low sex drive, our in-laws are driving us up the wall…

    We take a trip to NYC to reconnect and get a break. My parents are thrilled to have the babies all to themselves for a few days. We can’t even remember the last time we went out anywhere without the feeling of “I need to hurry and get this done as fast as possible.” We haven’t sat down to dinner uninterrupted in 6 months, let alone together.

    I haven’t had any alcohol in over a year and a half. I order my old “usual” and he his; we get hammered really fast. We go bar hopping. I meet this beautiful Chinese woman and we are appearently all over each other. She doesn’t mind my stretch marks and saggy, milky mom boobs! My husband gets a little concerned when she invited us to her hotel room and dismisses the invite. I pull him aside and ask if we should go. We discuss it for a few minutes, and me in my Whisky-Water state thinks he’s just being a prude. I tell him it’s ok, I’m there, I’m involved, I won’t regret it (he was worried it would be like what happened to his college roommate who Got dumped by his girlfriend after agreeing to a threesome and she couldn’t shake the regret and jealousy afterward). We go for it.

    I’ve never done a one-night-stand, let alone as a married mother, so as we sobered up a few hours after the fact, it got awkward. We hightailed it out of there because neither of us knew what to say, but up until the after-the-fact part, we had fun. I had fun. Maybe it was stupid. It probably was. We didn’t get any STDs (thank the universe) But the time I told my MIL she was a control freak in desperate need of a colonoscopy was probably just as damaging and stupid in the long run; my point is people do dumb shit in the heat of the moment. I don’t know why some of you think I’m horrible for this.

    Up until here, I feel like we are on the same page in everything, invincible. Best friends for life who are married with kids. Life is great. My MIL forgives me for telling her how I really feel.

    Then we find out we are pregnant again, and life is better. I lose the baby.

    Our relationship suffers. I don’t feel like he is remorseful enough. Why doesn’t he understand that our little lump of indiscernible flesh was a BABY to me? That I loved it like I do our other children? I wonder what I did wrong with the baby (nothing, appearently according to the tests conducted; it was a chromosomal issue that caused severe birth defects resulting in miscarriage at 13 weeks). I go through all the stages of grief. I think back on his transgression in Vegas, wondering if he’ll cheat on me again. I start initiating sex like no other. I am depressed.

    At some point I suggest we have another threesome, thinking maybe it will help boost my fragile ego (almost immediately after I say it I know it wouldn’t and dismiss the idea; I don’t express this but just assume he isn’t an idiot and would understand depression+wine don’t make for smart planning). He creates a plenty of fish account and starts advertising us. He did not run this by me until he got a lot of responses, then comes and shows me and thinks it will make me happy. I don’t freak out, but I calmly delete the account and tell him why it’s a bad idea (what if my coworkers or anybody I know sees this? This is a country where same-sex marriage is still hotly debated; people here aren’t ready for folks like us. We could get killed! Or all kinds of other forms of negatively affected) and how that shouldn’t be the route we go if we decide to do that again.

    We get pregnant again but there’s complications; the miscarriage was quite traumatic and the baby has attached in an awkward spot. I’m labeled high-risk.

    I think this was where we start really getting off the same page. I am really sensitive to everything. I am stressed and scared and angry. I stop sleeping with him altogether and say more than one time in arguments that I’m just sticking it out for the kids (he says this too). We reconcile, fight, he goes back to the guest room. On and on and on.

    One such week, he gets the grand idea to screw a hooker. His “best friend” talks him into it; it will save all his marriage problems! OMFG.

    He does it, he regrets it (or so he says). He fills me in 10 weeks later when baby is finally due and I want to try sex to induce labor. He won’t sleep with me. I think it’s because I’m fat and gross and he can’t “get it up”. We fight. He comes clean and says he hasn’t been tested for STD’s yet and some aren’t even testable for men and even though he used a condom, he doesn’t want to do anything that might risk me or our baby. Yeah. Nothing has been right since this.

    But 48 hours later I’m delivering a little girl and he’s holding my hand and I think I can put it behind me.

    Longer story short, I never raged. I never “dealt” with that. I never held him accountable and I never got over it. I stifled it. I looked for the best. I wanted us to get back to our “elite team” days.

    But everything turns into a fight. Our families are now involved. I’m questioning everything. We go on another vacation. I’m 20 lbs over weight, feeling aweful. Every time he tells me he thinks I’m sexy and beautiful I ignore it, think he’s “just saying that”. I am questioning everything about our life decisions, career choices, parenting choices, everything.

    We meet up with friends for margaritas. Maybe it’s the sun, maybe it’s the sea, maybe it’s the company and alcohol, but I’m feeling light hearted and happy. He seems to also.

    He suggests we head over to this one swinger bar but I’m tired and we go to the hotel and watch Game Of Thrones. I keep thinking maybe he wanted us to find a hook-up or something. I ask him about it, he confesses. I tell him it’s stupid (std’s, psychopaths, I’m not so sexy anymore….)

    He thinks he can “prove me wrong” (or so he says) by opening another account in a hook-up sight, showing me we can find folks willing to do STD screenings and all this other “whatever condition you have.” He posts my picture as I am to “prove I’m still just as sexy as ever!” And it’s not just him saying it. He tells me *after the fact*. Again.

    Yeah. I can’t tell who is the bigger chump in this scenario.

    Anyways, that’s my life and relationship in a nut shell. We had our first round of couples counseling yesterday and I don’t think he is a narcissist or evil or intentionally trying to screw with me or hurt me; I think we have serious issues to work out (if possible) and I never went through the healthy stages of grief and what have you after the hooker choice and it’s been sitting there like a toxic bubble just under the surface impacting everything.

    I am not even sure if I’m going to submit this. I don’t even know why I have such a detailed response. It’s crazy, as mad as I am at my husband I feel like I have to defend his honor or something. I wrote this letter (to chump lady) after one too many glasses of wine (no I’m not an alcoholic, I think I’ve listed each time I’ve drank in the last few years in this post; though it is helping me see a pattern. Me+Alcohol is prone to extreme stupidity and lack of rational judgment).

    Normally I find interaction “in the internet world” too limited in scope and context to really be meaningful. Of course none of us can really give each other completely clear, non-biased insight; we don’t know/can’t see the full picture of what is going on, and even our own perceptions on our own stories are extremely biased by nature; we are self preserving creatures.

    I am a fan of Chump Lady and have recommended her stuff to others in the past going through divorce. And because she makes numerous points about polyamory, and there’s been lots of debate about it subsequently, I thought I’d state my opinion (since somebody seems very convinced that I’m a troll trying to provoke controversy): I was raised around polyamory and have friends/relatives in polygamous/poly amorous relationships and can vouch that these relationships are in no-way whatsoever a cure-all for cheating or jealousy.

    But this doesn’t mean people in polyamorous, polygamous or polyandryous relationships are doomed over Hetero-monogamous couples, they just have a different set of hurdles and relationship dynamics that will never work for certain people (such as myself; I can’t romantically share my husband, I wouldn’t expect him to share me. I could never be in a plural marriage).

    Anyways. There. That’s that. I don’t know what else to say.

    • Bell, welcome to CN, and thanks for that insight into your situation! Your right, if you feel like it’s worth it, you and your husband definitely have some work to do. Sending support either way.

  • Whatever happens, Bell, (and however you identify) Chump Nation has your back.

    We are all individuals, though, so making the assumption that any skepticism shown here is down to somebody’s individual Judeo-Christian cisgendered heteronormative conditioning is a total crock, just as bad as someone saying you deserved to be cheated on because of you having a higher degree of tolerance to polyamory, which is another crock.

    We are people, our common shared experience is narcissistic abuse.

    Which is what you are suffering from. Your husband doesn’t give a flying fuck about you, or your kids, or he would not be doing what he is doing. There isn’t much to debate about that-using nude images of you to solicit sex with strangers is a criminal act. Up to you whether that abuse is balanced out by other benefits, such as being married (too archaic for this straight white atheist person), or keeping it ‘stable’ for the kids. HINT: it won’t be.

    Blessings on your journey, wherever it may lead, but I would advocate that ANYone in an abusive relationship to call the abuse what it is, and get the hell out.


    • Oh they weren’t nude…OMG he’d be dead if they were.

      One was a picture of me and him at the beach (first two websights/first time) second was of me and him in our Halloween costumes (pirates).

  • Sorry, my bad. But even so, “here’s my wife, want to fuck her?” is kinda pimpy…..

    I always go as a pirate…..YAAAR!

    • Exactly. Which is why he didn’t even get the guest room this time.

      Unless you count the guest room at his mothers house.

      I really hope he’s just a clueless idiot and not a calculating, entitled jerk. But the fact that I’m questioning him and his motivations says a lot about my trust in him.

      I also didn’t mean I think the *only* reasons any person isn’t capable of understanding (or being comfortable with) the various ways people are attracted to each other outside of the 1 man to 1 woman forever model is due to a judeo-Christian, heterosexual, cisgendered background/cultural influence so I’m sorry if it read that way; I tried to make it very clear that my experiences in a predominantly Christian, Hetero, Cis-oriented culture might make folks less likely to be exposed (let alone aware of) less common sexualities and couplings.

      I doubt anybody in many parts of the UK or certain parts of Asia would be shocked by my post to the point of disbelief.

  • CL, I love the reference to a threesome – with a lawyer. Now, that’s a threesome I can get into.

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