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UBT: Cheaters didn’t know “what else” to do!

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cheater_coldYesterday’s post on closure got this response from “gdmmt” accusing chumps of victim mentality and not caring enough about the feelings of cheaters. I thought I’d put it through the Universal Bullshit Translator.

Guess what? If someone is cheating on you, YOUR RELATIONSHIP ISN’T MEETING EITHER OF YOUR NEEDS. Get it? I’m SO SICK OF HEARING how a cheater is just worse than the devil, and that they are fucking the lowest scum of the earth, and how DARE they not be satisfied within the relationship!!!! HOW FUCKING DARE THEY!!!

Should they have broken up with you before cheating? Of course. Should one or both of you in the relationship be more and more aware that things aren’t working? Yep. Are all cheaters nothing but careless, flippant assholes? NO. Sorry, it’s not black and white that way. I know you don’t want to hear it because you’re the VICTIM in this!! You’ve been WRONGED!! YOU ARE THE ONE THAT MATTERS HERE!!!!

Fuck that noise. Every situation is different from the next one. I read this column and while 1/3 of it is helpful or rings true, the rest of it just sounds like jaded, angry, I’m-the-victim, look-what-they-did-to-me hatred.

The truth is, if your SO cheated on you, there IS a HUGE PROBLEM IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP. No, it’s not “your fault”, but you ARE a PART of this situation. Guess what. Not getting needs met is VALID. If your partner sustained a long time of waiting for you to “change” or for things to “get better” and they just never ever did, HOW SURPRISED CAN YOU REALLY BE if they strayed? It’s not the optimal choice as far as you are concerned, but when someone decides to cheat, many times that person literally doesn’t know what else to do. So they make a huge mistake. And many regret it and wish they could take it back, or that it never happened. I bet you don’t believe me! Cheaters don’t have human feelings!! They’re cheaters after all! The most abominable, diabolical thing on the planet! They’re so bad that you don’t HAVE to pretend they’re human! You don’t HAVE to look at your relationship problems anymore! Why? Because the CHEATER just rendered your whole relationship NULL and VOID! GAME OVER! NO MORE having to wonder exactly what the problems were. The problem only was that one of you was a CHEATER!!

How convenient.

Now for the UBT:

Guess what? If someone is cheating on you, YOUR RELATIONSHIP ISN’T MEETING EITHER OF YOUR NEEDS.

Sounds like a good reason to end it. Honestly.

Get it? I’m SO SICK OF HEARING how a cheater is just worse than the devil, and that they are fucking the lowest scum of the earth, and how DARE they not be satisfied within the relationship!!!! HOW FUCKING DARE THEY!!!

Straw man argument there. You may “dare” to be unsatisfied. No one is saying you must brim forth with satisfaction. It’s what you choose to do about your misery.

Should they have broken up with you before cheating? Of course. Should one or both of you in the relationship be more and more aware that things aren’t working? Yep.

Should I have reconsidered before I stole your credit card and charged $40,000 worth of Beanie Babies? Of course. Should I have been aware that my penchant for Beanie Babies would be my undoing? Yes.

Are all cheaters nothing but careless, flippant assholes? NO.

Who cares? My site isn’t for cheaters. My site is for chumps, the people fucked over by cheaters. I tell people to get out of such relationships. (The banner is really clear that way.)

Are people who steal credit cards and charge $40,000 worth of Beanie Babies flippant assholes? Maybe they’re really nice people who crochet afghans! Maybe they’re nice to their mothers! Who cares? I’m still missing $40,000.

Sorry, it’s not black and white that way. I know you don’t want to hear it because you’re the VICTIM in this!! You’ve been WRONGED!! YOU ARE THE ONE THAT MATTERS HERE!!!!

Some things are right and wrong. You either think there is a justification for cheating (I wasn’t satisfied!) or you don’t. I don’t. We don’t share the same values, gdmmt.

And yeah, chumps are the “victim” in this. They were wronged. And on a support site designed specifically for them, yes, they ARE the people who matter here.

Fuck that noise. Every situation is different from the next one. I read this column and while 1/3 of it is helpful or rings true, the rest of it just sounds like jaded, angry, I’m-the-victim, look-what-they-did-to-me hatred.

You know what sounds like jaded, angry, look-what-they-did-to-me hatred? Posting a shouty all-caps diatribe at people on a support site, accusing them of not caring enough about the people who fucked them over.

Let go of the bitterness, gdmmt. I’m sorry someone failed to sufficiently satisfy you.

The truth is, if your SO cheated on you, there IS a HUGE PROBLEM IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP.

OMG, you’re right! Cheating IS a huge problem in relationships. Get checked for STDs at once!

No, it’s not “your fault”, but you ARE a PART of this situation.

It’s not your fault I stole your credit card, but you should never have left it in your wallet! Tempting me! I think you should own your part about why I felt compelled to steal your credit card.

Guess what.

I think you have a verbal tick, gdmmt.

Not getting needs met is VALID. If your partner sustained a long time of waiting for you to “change” or for things to “get better” and they just never ever did, HOW SURPRISED CAN YOU REALLY BE if they strayed?

What’s really surprising is why you’d ever want this sucktacular relationship back? I mean if it’s so horrible that it compels you to Not Make Optimal Choices, and the person Never Changes for you — why stick around? Why do you want it back so bad? Why do you care?

You can’t have it both ways — this person is so Terrible they made me Do a Bad Thing and then It’s Terrible that this Terrible Person Doesn’t Want Me!

(Oh right. This is the cue for chumps to admit how terrible they are and do the pick me dance for you. Maybe if they can satisfy you, you won’t do Terrible things.)

It’s not the optimal choice as far as you are concerned, but when someone decides to cheat, many times that person literally doesn’t know what else to do.

Speak up? Get therapy? See a divorce lawyer?

They don’t know what else to do? Funny how the clueless, lost, broken cheaters have complete agency when it comes to creating dating profiles and hiding their affairs. They’ve got one hell of a skill set then.

But cheating was their ONE and ONLY coping mechanism? Really? No, it was the easier path than a difficult conversation or an honest break up. And the cheater stays in the relationship because they are extracting value (read victimizing) the chump. Cheaters want CAKE. They want all options. Because more people = more kibbles. More kibbles = “satisfaction.”

So they make a huge mistake. And many regret it and wish they could take it back, or that it never happened.

Okay, cheaters have feelings. I don’t doubt that. But feelings are really beside the point after you’ve done The Bad Not Optimal Thing.

If you steal my credit card and spend $40,000 on Beanie Babies, I don’t really care that you “wish you it never happened.” You’re sorry? Pay me back the money. That’s a start. Sorry is as sorry DOES.

But betraying someone, especially after a long marriage, children, and a deeply invested life together is a much grosser violation than stealing a credit card. The cheater’s feelings are really irrelevant. Moving forward is about demonstrating character and realizing no one owes you reconciliation. You’re sorry? Show some humility. Stop caring what chumps think.

You steal a credit card, people are going to call you a thief. You don’t like that? Don’t steal credit cards.

I bet you don’t believe me! Cheaters don’t have human feelings!! They’re cheaters after all! The most abominable, diabolical thing on the planet! They’re so bad that you don’t HAVE to pretend they’re human!

Oh they’re human all right. Too bad they don’t come with shark masks or something. Would make spotting them a lot easier.

You don’t HAVE to look at your relationship problems anymore! Why? Because the CHEATER just rendered your whole relationship NULL and VOID! GAME OVER!

Yes, game over. Leave a cheater, gain a life. I think we’re on the same page here. By all means look at your relationship problems. If you’re a cheater, vow not to be an asshole in your next relationship and work on your entitlement issues. And if you’re a chump, work on why you tolerated disrespect and learn to have better boundaries.

NO MORE having to wonder exactly what the problems were. The problem only was that one of you was a CHEATER!!

How convenient.

It works for me. All the best to you, gdmmt.

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Short and simple. If you are not getting your needs met, clearly state your needs. Give examples and let your SO meet them or not. If she doesn’t, leave.

    You don’t need to betray your spouse. Just use your words.

    Oh, and ask him if he’s getting his needs met as well. After all, it’s not a one-way street. Chances are, there are some things on his list you could be doing better.

    That sure seems easier than all the spycraft needed to sneak around and have an affair.

    If for some reason you don’t know what your needs are, and you are unhappy, just say it. Maybe your spouse isn’t happy either. Then you can brainstorm about why you got married. Where you ever happy? What did that look like? Can we go back to doing those things?

    Maybe it was a mistake to get married. OK, don’t make it worse by betraying yourself and your spouse by cheating.

    See, simple.

    • Oh Uniballer.. you are so mature and grown up!!!! Talk about your feelings? Discuss problems? Work on things? Work on YOURSELF??? It’s just so much EASIER to blame other people for your shit rather than own it!!!

      Right on, awesome comment!!!

      • Seriously! It’s a good thing my stbx decided he wanted to divorce me. I’d hate for him to have to confront a relationship concern or have to actually talk about his feelings.

    • Uniballer – my thoughts exactly. This line specifically:

      “Not getting needs met is VALID. If your partner sustained a long time of waiting for you to “change” or for things to “get better” and they just never ever did, HOW SURPRISED CAN YOU REALLY BE if they strayed?”

      Uhhhh, WAITING for things to change or get better??? I bet the cheater really put a lot of effort in initiating this “change”… In reality you have a selfish spoiled brat who can’t seem to handle when life intrudes on his/her centrality. My XH brought up a slew of resentments, only after he was caught, of course. They were all news to me. Oh, but then he went on to say he knew he’d never find anyone as good as me. Huh?

      These people are all so similarly disordered its uncanny.

      • “In reality you have a selfish spoiled brat who can’t seem to handle when life intrudes on his/her centrality. ”

        This is so true.

        “My XH brought up a slew of resentments, only after he was caught, of course. They were all news to me. Oh, but then he went on to say he knew he’d never find anyone as good as me.”

        Mine did the same thing!

        I think they all say and do the same things because they all serve the same master.

        • My cheater EX did the same and yep, “They were all news to me”. The Other Woman has no idea just how much my EX has lied to her.

  • “Guess what. Not getting needs met is VALID. If your partner sustained a long time of waiting for you to “change” or for things to “get better” and they just never ever did, HOW SURPRISED CAN YOU REALLY BE if they strayed?”

    Well lets see. I ALSO WAITED FOR HIM TO CHANGE! I prayed for that DWI, I prayed for pancreatitis. SOMETHING to slap him upside the head and say “YOU ARE A DRUNK!” But no. I dealt with him coming home at 11:30 on a worknight smelling like beer and cigarettes and wanting to get laid. YUK. Who wants to do that? So then I become the prude. My NEEDS weren’t met when he didn’t come to be with me at a decent hour. Sober.

    BUT – I DIDN’T go out to get a fuck phone when MY needs weren’t met. I didn’t get on YAHOO accounts to pick up other women to see if maybe THEY were ok of my alcoholism. No – I stuck it out. Until I found out about the cheating.

    If anyone should of cheated because their ‘needs weren’t met,’ I should have been me.

    • Here’s the thing someone’s needs have to be reasonable. Honey, I NEED you to completely ignore the children and give all your attention to me. Honey, you NEED to put no effort in to your job so that every spare moment can be spent adoring me. Honey, I NEED you to be ok with me racking up huge amounts of secret debt on our credit cards and then be ok that every penny was spent on my precious hobby. Dear, I NEED you to help me retire early, buy a sailboat and sail around the world and I don’t care that you are terrified of the ocean. Sweetie, I NEED you to behave like a pornstar in the bedroom because loving sex doesn’t get me off. Yeah does that sound reasonable to you? I think the unmet needs line is usually more BS that comes out of cheaters’ mouths. I certainly had unmet needs in my 20 year marriage and I did not cheat and never considered it.

      • This this this!!! And my x’s #1 rule: Your money is our money but my money is mine!!!!
        …so when I said we need to budget cause I want to have some fun too he found howorker who told him she felt marriage is about the freedom to do what you want-he married her and she bought him a big fat house and he does whatever he wants now….Twu luv smoopies!

          • “Give up everything you love, but don’t expect me to because “that’s different”. Kow tow to my family even though they treat you like shit and my mother spread that you were not right in the head all over my family right after your mother died.”

              • Omg Lina! ? that’s horrible. I’m so sorry that’s what they did to you after you lost your mother! Mean heartless fuckers. I don’t care how old you are when you lose your mother – it’s really REALLY hard and sad for most normal people!!! Big hugs to you. They all suck. I hope you know your feelings and response to your mother’s death was ok and normal! I’m so so sorry they made it way worse for you with all their crap.

              • Thank you. X

                I took it from where it came. Ex MIL was a hateful, jealous, spiteful narc. The apple doesn’t fall far. She never liked me and the feeling was mutual. Karma bit her ass when ex’s cousin outed her about what she’d said. She had to admit to it. It was in writing. Even ex, who thought the sun rose in her ass couldn’t defend her that time and tell me it was my imagination.

    • LadyStrange,
      again, your story is so much like mine. while i was stressed, overwhelmed and dealing with everything all by myself….of course i fucked up, of course i did some shit wrong, of course i wasnt meeting all his needs. but look at all the shit i was doing, look at all the needs i was meeting for him. look at all the YEARS i had been doing it too, 88.999% by myself.

      while he somehow ended up getting his feelers hurt by something i said or did when i was literally unable to think straight the year following my daughters death. AND INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT IT TO ME LIKE A MAN…..he started drinking more, started not coming home on the weekends, started no answering my phone calls asking if he was ok and where he was, started not giving me money to pay the bills or buy groceries for the children, started talking to the oompa loompa hood rat who somehow was always at the same party he was because she bailed on her own children, husband and marriage. she understood him so much more then his boring wife. they made a connection, they both had bad, horrible spouses, they got along so well, they were “meant to be”………

      unfortunately, i never had a clue!! because while he was “talking” to her he damn sure WAS NOT “talking” to me, while he was telling her how horrible i was and the bad way i was treating him, he damn sure WAS NOT, while he was allowing her to rub it and make it feel better, he damn sure WAS NOT letting me.. Oh for sure i KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG. i asked a million questions, i gave him space, i crowded him, i offered to help him, i made suggestions, i demanded accountability, respect and reciprocation……..and that is where i fucked up. i not only was dealing with worry, heart ache and confusion on WTF was going on with my husband, i was still dealing with the everyday stress of buying an old house built in the 1930’s, having 4 children to feed, raise and take care of, making sure the house was clean, making sure there was food in the pantry and freezer, making sure the kids got to school and did their homework, making sure the bills were paid, making sure the vehicles were running right, etc etc PLUS still dealing with my own grief and guilt of my daughters death. AND NOT ONCE DID I THINK OF CHEATING or finding a man to “talk” to, finding a man who could make me feel less stressed and more wanted. hell, i didnt even think of finding a sugar daddy with lots of money.

      but i will be damed if i am the victim….. i am a survivor. my exhusband is the victim. poor little thing. bad wife, bad kids, bad job, bad bills, bad life…. and the way he deals with all of it, is drinking and cheating. i would have helped him out, i would have stayed with him forever…..except for his sticking his dick into some strange pussy, then letting that pussy call me and tell me off. i dont like to share.

    • “Not getting needs met is VALID.”

      No, no it is not a valid reason. It’s only a poor excuse.

      “If your partner sustained a long time of waiting for you to “change” or for things to “get better” and they just never ever did, HOW SURPRISED CAN YOU REALLY BE if they strayed?”

      I spent a long time waiting for my partner to change and for things to get better and nothing ever did, no matter how hard I tried to communicate that my needs weren’t being met. Straying never occurred to me.

    • You guys know who this guy is, right? He’s a cheater who reads this site for tidbits on how to act, what to say and how to seem empathetic to his victim….er…..wife?…..er……OW?……um….WHOMEVER! He won’t put the vowels in, because he’s really a “good guy”! A Godly Man!!

      He’s reading here not to gain insight into CHANGING or what he did wrong. This is called “counter-intelligence” or “counter-surveillance”. Finding out what “The Enemy” is doing and saying and adjusting YOUR plan accordingly.

      Every so often, though…something slips in their pea brains. Something slides beneath their thin skins…and they erupt into a magnificent display of venomous word salad, just like “gdmmt” did here.

      Mine did this very thing just this past Saturday. He wanted me to do something ridiculously stupid, not just inconvenient for me—in hopes of setting me up for something even more ridiculous. He wanted to see me jump in order to “keep the peace” with him.

      When I didn’t do it, he went absolutely off the deep end. Batshit crazy. I am so happy that I had two other people in the car with me, and him on speakerphone so that everyone got a good earful of his CRAZY, delusional, and abusive bullshit.

      If I didn’t know better…but then….maybe it is….I would say that this “gdmmt” is my STBX. This tirade was almost word for word what he spewed forth on Saturday. I am so grateful for Chump Nation and some fabulous friends IRL that have supported me in seeing the mindfuckery for what it really is.

      But hey, “GDMMT”….if you’re reading this….is that YOU, Mac? Or is it Indy now? Or whatever delusional nickname you’re giving yourself these days?

  • Reading the post before it went through the UBT I can partially understand the guys opinion and if my X had only done the cheating part and nothing more I could accept the original posters response.

    HOWEVER (Big However)

    Months before my X left the house and took our daughter (refusing to let me see her) she was contacting my family from South America so they would put pressure on me to move out and give her all the assets even though I was the one that brought these assets to the marriage (I have a college degree and a career and she does not even have a high school diploma and brought nothing but dept. to the marriage).

    Then since I did not move out she finally moved out and accused me of physically abusing her and our daughter, rapping her and sexually abusing our daughter. There were two trials and both of them I refused to negotiate because it was all lies and I had physical evidence to prove she was lying. Her case was so bad that in the second trial I did not even have to mount a defense and the judge dismissed it. I then contacted the Attorney General’s office and they refused to press charges for perjury because it was too small of a case (that is their words not mine!).

    So going with what the Original Posters email, if what he said was true and the person was not happy with the relationship then why go to such extremes as to lie and attempt to put your former spouse in jail so they can get all the assets? Can anyone say narcissism and entitlement please?

    In the end I got about 77% of the assets and she got the rest, because even though we live in a 50/50 state, my assets were all prior marriage. I also got my daughter 50/50 despite all of her allegations and to defend against all of that stupidity it cost my side alone 47k in attorney fees which I can’t sure her unless she comes after me one more time (3 seems to be the magic number here). Then I can sue her for defamation of character etc.

    Point is, someone who is not happy with a relationship and just “makes a mistake” and cheats if they have any form of empathy at all they would just get a divorce and make it as easy as possible. When they go to the extremes as I have mentioned they never cared to begin with. It was always about them, it took me 10 years to realize that crap and when I started to realize it is when she started having the affair as she knew the gig was almost up.

    • What about the gaslighting, spending money fro family income, using family car, verbal abuse, blame shifting , mental torture , std exposure that goes along withe cheating?

      • Yup those are all true statements to. I do remember the gaslighting, trying to convince me that I was crazy and that I always remembered things incorrectly. Oh and the blame shifting just wow this one got to the point were our daughter started to pee on her laundry basket because my X would blame shift and lie so much that it would cause arguments that then effected my daughter. I am so happy that is all behind me now!

  • “…fucking the lowest scum of the earth…”

    So they’re fucking the lowest scum on earth? Or they’re the lowest fucking scum on earth? Grammar is important when spewing bullshit; otherwise you make unintentional funnies.

  • oh, look, gdmmt just tried to apply logic to the act of intentionally destroying someone’s life. The truth is I am “part of this situation” but it was not my choice. My HasBeen intentionally chose to do what he did, which was never to mention he had a problem with our relationship. So tell me gdmmt, how was I supposed to fix that? Am I surprised he strayed, damn straight I am, he was the picture of happiness in life, never mentioned an issue with me or our life together. The truth is most cheaters are flat out cowards, most of whom can’t step up to the plate and have a simple “this isn’t working for me” conversation about the most important relationship in life. Oh, and gdmmt, when I confronted the HasBeen there were no feelings, no tears, no signs of being upset, no sadness, no joy, nothing just the threats of prosecution for going through his things. Explain that shit away logically.

    • I’m also in this boat and as usual, AllOutofKibble, you’re right on the money. That commenter assumes that there is some kind of a dialog going on about dissatisfaction. What the heck? For many of us, we had what we thought was a flawed but loving human being that we were going through life with. Like any long relationship, we took the bad with the good and made a lot of excuses for their behavior. Their intermittent sweet nothings and declarations of “Sigh. I’m so happy. I love our life.” may have kept us a *little* bit in the dark about their supposed years of misery. So yeah. If they had this horrible burden of “waiting” for things to change, they could have…uh…actually mentioned that things were supposed to be changing. Instead of lying through their teeth to the exact opposite effect. Lulling your spouse into false security so you can steal from them for years and prepare the comfy way for your escape is not exactly a quick one-time mistake.

    • AllOutofKibble – I absolutely agree!

      Truth is, I was the one that was unhappy in our marriage and I tried to talk to him several times over the years about my unhappiness like a responsible person should. He either rolled his eyes, said I was trying to create drama in our relationship, and/or told me how happy was in our relationship. He said whatever he had to say to get out of the conversation and then did nothing to help make the situation better. At one point I even told him I wanted a divorce – he initially said ok then came back and told me how much he loved me, wanted to be with me, loved the life we had built and promised to change how he treated me. ALL LIES. He could have easily walked away when I asked him for the divorce and no one would have known about his cheating. But he didn’t want that option – he wanted it ALL.

      The fact is, gdmmt, I did not know he was unhappy and certainly didn’t know he was cheating. Had I been aware of this information, I would have worked with him on whatever was causing his unhappiness and if it still wasn’t working, then we would have parted amicably. He didn’t give us that opportunity though.

      CL’s tag line is spot on – Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life. That’s exactly what I’ve done (left the cheater) and am doing (gaining a life of my own).

      Lots of love to CN!

        • Same story. Avoidance absence bullying and cheating. 25 years. Then it was all my fault, I was so withdrawn. Fuck him and the hos he rode in on.

          • Same for me, he ignored me when I brought up things or changed the subject or told me I had to wait for what I needed from him. I really was unhappy for along time, the cheating was the icing on the cake for me. The fuck it, I give up for me.

            • Mine would say ‘you didn’t say it in the right way/you didn’t use the right words’.
              {Shakes head} the person I am now? Would just walk.
              This stuff changes us! Looking back I have no idea WHY I tolerated the disrespect and disregard.

      • Exactly. Mine told me about 2 years before i discovered his serial cheating, that some of his friends were talking about what their best time in their lives was. Some said college or high school or 20’s, and he said that now was his favorite time and that he was happy having a family and a home, etc. Why in holy hell would you then say, after being caught, that you’ve been unhappy for so long?
        Never mind, I know the answer.

      • I knew X-hole was unhappy….with his WORK…nothing could be done about that because he made great money doing it. I’m SORRY you don’t get to just quit your job and do something FUN for a living…you should have thought about that before you made a bunch of babies and got divorced cause people wouldn’t tolerate your cheating. I DID go to work with him and bust my ass helping him because I knew he worked hard and I cared. How did he show his appreciation? He sat there on FB messenger with the troll while I was hoofing 40 lb. boxes of tile up a flight of stairs. Stupid dick.

        For months I told him over and over that we needed alone time, date night once or twice a month….nope…he avoided. I pleaded with him to go to counseling as he had offered and promised…nope…he avoided.

        I knew we had issues but since he made ZERO effort to communicate details….I was supposed to use my super powers and know that he was looking for a way out? “It’s because of your unhappiness!” Well asshole…maybe if you could stop sniffing out strange and talk to me or pay attention to me besides wanting sexual favors before passing out… “You don’t support my passions” Ummm…I tried…I could no longer pretend that you spending 70% of your earnings on bodybuilding, tans, supplements and gym equipment was okay….. dude you have FIVE kids. Time to grow the fuck up.

        THAT is the real truth of it…I could no longer pretend his disgusting selfishness wasn’t out of control. Her…she doesn’t give a shit what he pays or doesn’t because it doesn’t affect her. Not yet anyway.

        The only things he EVER gave 100% were his addictions. First it was alcohol and then bodybuilding again and of course his cheating troll.

    • I never had a clue, because he HID IT FROM ME. He didn’t want me to find out. They aren’t unhappy, they want it all. His cheating had NOTHING to do with me, and NOTHING to do with our relationship. He was a self-centered jerk that didn’t have a problem using people.

  • I promised I wouldn’t get sucked into a reply again out of anger but…gdmmt, are you for real?! First off I was always asking my ex if he was happy, fulfilled with our life. I was always checking to make sure he was satisfied. And then when we had our daughter, that HE begged to have, she was born with special needs.

    Fast forward 5 years. It’s busy, exhausting but I’m still trying to meet his fu**ing needs. Out of the blue he announces he’s leaving and has never looked back. I lost everything and was hospitalized. I nearly lost my life. So I’m sorry (NOT) if I sound bitter and have no regard for cheaters. I do not. Experts will tell you it is the worst thing a “human” can do to another. It can top the list over death of a child and rape.

    I’m still in court fighting for child support so my daughter will have some sort of a life when she out lives me. But yes, gdmmt, I really did figure out the problem after I’d been told for the last 2 years that he left because of me and my disabled daughter. He’s got shitty character.

    How convenient.

      • Chumpette, thank you for your comment. I get attacked about my ability to parent more than anything else. Your comment means more to me than you could possibly imagine!

  • Why are excuses only “relevant” in a cheater’s mind? Nowhere else in life are excuses acceptable when you do something wrong.

    Rob a bank? Well, my parents were poor and uneducated and I don’t know any better. Nope. Sorry. You still robbed a bank.

    Beat your spouse? I got spankings as a child and didn’t know this wasn’t an acceptable way to communicate. Um…you still beat your spouse.

    Kill an innocent motorist because you went on a 12-hour bender and got behind the wheel of a car? Alcoholism runs in my family. I can’t help myself. Yes. Yes, you can. You can choose not to go to a bar. You can choose not to drive while intoxicated. You still killed an innocent person.

    I am so sick of this sense of entitlement people have nowadays. You can’t steam-roll every person who happens to be standing in the road on your way to perfect happiness. You can’t do it. Life is not promise of perfect happiness. No one owes you that. You can rob banks or beat people or risk others’ lives. You just can’t do it.

    You also can’t make someone think they have a loving, devoted partner and keep them blind while you are out getting your rocks off with someone else. Promises mean something…to some people, at least…and there is no excuse for one spouse to unilaterally decide that they don’t one day, especially when the other spouse is never informed of the fact that the promises previously made hold no value any longer.

    If you’re not happy/satisfied/valued in your current relationship, sit down and have an honest conversation with your spouse. End it the right way. Divorce hurts on its own. It makes no sense to add to that pain with an affair.

  • This sounds like the last 5 conversations I’ve had with my stbxh. But gdmmt, I wanted to divorce before I even knew he was cheating. And he said he didn’t want to. I gave him an out 3 times, and he turned me down to cheat behind my back. He could have left and gotten half of everything, yet he chose to stay and stray. So where’s the logic there? Oh, yeah, he’s just an asshole.

    • He stayed for the same reason that my ex stayed while he strayed: He was having his cake and eating it, too.

      I was home, tending to the bills, doing the laundry, raising the babies, providing for all his spiritual (ha), emotional, physical, and sexual needs. He took jobs out of town so that he could carry on his doube-, triple-, quadruple-lives with as much secrecy and anonymity as possible. When I told him I wanted a divorce, he begged me to change my mind. He said he wanted me. I literally laughed in his face and said, “Yes, I know you do. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why wouldn’t you want me? You have the perfect life!”

      I walked away, hard as it was with three children. I filed for divorce, pro se, and just sued him for unpaid child support – and won – this week. Asshole.

      • I told my xh that we should go to marriage counseling at least twice before d-day. I didn’t know what was going on but I knew something was wrong. He flat out refused to go – did not hesitate for one second.

        • Same here. I knew something was wrong in our relationship but couldn’t put my finger on it. At that time, I don’t think he was having any affairs with real people (yet) – rather he escaped by disengaging, always being on his phone and on his PC, always having very important things to do other than be partners with me. I suggested counseling several times but he would always dismiss it and say “I choose to be happy – look at all the wonderful things about our life” whenever I voiced a concern. My problem is that I let it go…I didn’t push it. I assumed if he was happy, I should just be happy too. Now I know better – listen to my gut. If it doesn’t feel right for me, my needs matter too. We both have a right to be happy and he, in hindsight, didn’t care if I wasn’t happy and had no desire to address what I voiced as concerns. Live and learn.

          • YES! The physical intimacy issue my stbx cited was something that *I* and ONLY I had ever tried to engage with him about. Not only did he never express his own concern or dissatisfaction, on the contrary: he was always sweetly reassuring. It wasn’t until after he left me that I realized, Hey, because I’d been the one to bring it up he KNEW that I wasn’t totally satisfied with our sex life. And he took *zero* initiative to address it or express any interest whatsoever in meeting my needs (which were pretty tame and easy to meet, IMO).

            Delving deeper, I do believe that his (presumed) awareness of my concerns were actually at the root of some of his inability to deal with it. Threat to manhood or self-esteem or sense of adequacy or whatever. But to throw something in my face that I had tried to talk to him about plenty of times as a reason for his not loving me anymore and leaving me for OW, without ever voicing his own concerns or speaking up when I gave him an easy opportunity to talk about it, that’s so f***ing low.

            But to your point—yes, live and learn. I should have been more assertive, and I should have involved a therapist (or tried to, anyway) a long time ago. I should have owned my needs. Having to walk on eggshells for fear of being sneered at and dismissed does a good job of inhibiting those things.

            • I had the exact same experience of having something thrown in my face that he’d refused to discuss or address in any way as he packed to go. It is f***ing low and despicable.

          • That pretty much sums the entire 8 years for me, I never felt like I mattered. Everything and everyone else always came first. I told him that not too long ago…”I never felt like I mattered” he said “of course you mattered” and I said “evidently not enough”. Asshole.

          • I suspected him and his coworker in 2012 and I was really upset at the time about it, he got pissed off at me, told me I was crazy and nothing was going on, they were “just friends”, then continued on for 2 more years with her while I was telling him I was lonely, please come home, find a job close to home, I’ll help you look, I want a husband to come home to everyday after work. So why would he ignore me, leave me depressed and the only thing he’d say is I’m doing it for us? For the money, for our retirement. If he was unhappy, I gave him lots of opportunities to tell me when I was pleading for him to come home, why not tell me then? He to just wanted it ALL and now we’ve both lost it ALL. The end.

            • X-hole actually said, the day after he left “everybody loses” and yet….even knowing this didn’t stop him.

              They just have a reality glitch. It’s scarey.

      • Great job on walking away. I know that was really hard with three kids. And congratulations on winning your court case! The 2nd paragraph of reply reminds me of an article I read on here about how chumps are the parents for the chump and their kids too! All the while they are just needy immature people. Don’t want adult responsibilities. And then blame us because they aren’t emotionally fulfilled.

        • The 2nd paragraph of reply reminds me of an article I read on here about how chumps are the parents for the chump and their kids too! All the while they are just needy immature people. Don’t want adult responsibilities. And then blame us because they aren’t emotionally fulfilled
          ****

          That is it in a nutshell.

          • I used to tell people I had five kids – the three kids, the dog and my husband(turned cheater).
            I thought I was joking.
            His latest comment was “You have the help me.” because apparently he just can’t tear himself away from his affair partner.
            For real?

      • Dani–you’re mighty! Congrats on winning the back child support.

        And, raising my hand–I brought up ending the marriage at least once a year for the past decade. He didn’t want to be single, he wanted me in his corner, tending home & hearth, while he acted single outside the house.

        • When asked what he wanted, in the aftermath of the final D-Day (there were several – see my blog), his response was, “I don’t want to be single.” I just stood there staring at him. Finally, I said, “You don’t want to be single? Okay. Nothing in that statement said anything about wanting me and me alone.”

          He also told me in a very matter-of-fact tone that he cheated because, “I wanted sex. Sex is my drug. You were giving it to me, but I wanted more.” Seriously. It doesn’t get more audacious than that, does it?

          I won, but he’ll file a motion to reduce it and, if that doesn’t get approved, he’ll file a motion to change the visitation schedule. He’s already hinted at that, even though our current schedule is a court order. I’ll spend the next 14 years (until our youngest is 18) fighting legal battles with him, I’m sure. I’m prepared, though. I’d go to the ends of the Earth for my children. He wouldn’t even go to the end of the hall to kiss them goodnight.

    • I gave my STBX a million chances.. all he did was keep seeing the slut and lying to me.. fence sitting, cake eating.. gaslighting.. taking no responsibility. Finally, I put a stop to it.

      But it’s my fault somehow?

  • CL, tell it! You are the general and spokesperson for the Chump Army. gdmmt speakers for cheaters like my STBX. I am sick of hearing STBX’s rants and sob stories.

    “I’m human.” [That’s debatable and, more importantly, no excuse for repeated horrendous actions].

    “I made mistakes.” [No, you repeatedly made decisions].

    “You need to own your part (in the demise of our marriage).” [I don’t remember putting a gun to your head to withdraw cash from our accounts to pay prostitutes. I don’t remember forcing you, petitioner, to court, to wrest our kids from me on false allegations. I don’t remember because none of these things happened. And no, I don’t owe you my life. I have accomplished some worthwhile things before I met you and without your help. And no I will not kiss the ring, Your Entitled (non)Majesty.]

    “I deserve these vacations from working only a few weeks per year (while you and children try to survive without support, which is in arrears and is being significantly reduced). Be optimistic! I’m sure you’ll find a good job soon (to support my whoring/vacationing habits).” [Fat chance. Any earnings will be used to pay for food and rent. Any extra, if ever earned, will go into the kids’ college savings fund, that you, in essence, emptied by paying prostitutes and taking me to court to fight for the right to see our kids.]

    When I asked STBX why he didn’t divorce me before he started having sex with other people, he told me, ‘Divorce takes too long. You know how long it takes.’ (He had gotten divorced once before. No agency.) No desire to exert any self-control or at least file for divorce before embarking on other ‘adventures.’ No ownership by him. That’s life with the personality-disordered.

    The cheaters discussed here on CL hardly seem the type to regret anything other than (1) getting caught; (2) losing their supply of kibble; or (3) having to throw their families not much more than a rotten carrot or tuft of grass in support. And even with that, these cheaters are complaining about how much they SACRIFICE and SUFFER for their chumps and families.

    On to bigger and better things today. It’s time for me to redirect my attention from cheater in the gutter and start making good things happen for the rest of the world.

    • “And no I will not kiss the ring”

      This is going on my list of chump quotes, right along with “don’t expect chicken milk” and “unplug that blender.”

      I so admire your resilience RSW! I hope things will be looking up and that your new lawyers will kick ass on your behalf!

  • Here’s the thing. The Cheaters? They are not worried about the Chump’s feelings. If they were, they wouldn’t cheat. They would think, “You know, maybe I should talk to my partner about being unhappy, instead of lining up my junk with some strange.” SOMEONE has to put the Chump’s feelings first, and since the Cheater is busy protecting their image, their assets, their cake, their kibbles, the Chump has to step up and protect themselves.

    I’m sorry that the Chump’s audacity to be hurt by their partner’s betrayal is annoying to “gdmmt’s” delicate sensibilities. I’m sorry that the Chump’s audacity not to consider the Cheater’s guilt over their own poor choices grates on “gdmmt’s” nerves. But GUESS WHAT, gdmmt, when your partner cheats, the problems in your relationship boil down to the fact that your partner has limited impulse control, empathy or consideration for your feelings. And those issues are very difficult to overcome.

    You might consider why someone who is clearly so unsympathetic with the emotional turmoil of chumps would want to spend time on a blog devoted to helping them, gdmmt, …. also why you’re so scared of vowels.

  • Thank you Chump Lady. Perfect response. I’m so sick of these kinds of justifications that cheaters and their apologists offer. I’m not backing down from my belief that my malignant narcissistic ex was 100 percent guilty for the demise of our marriage. I had to pull the plug, but it was already dead, thanks to him. What he did, over at least a dozen years with seven women that I know of (not counting the random prostitutes), while spending vital family resources and the kids’ college savings, is NOT excusable by any stretch of the imagination. He wasn’t a picnic to be married to, but I never even thought about cheating. I did what we’re supposed to do, and sacrificed and struggled on. I did not nag or argue, as that would get my head bit off. I did the best I could to be the best wife and mother I could. I tried to reconcile for about 3.5 months, and caught an std from him during that time. He spent the reconciliation time three-timing. OW thinks she got a great deal when I bailed out, but she wasn’t the one-twu-luv-schmoopie she thinks she was, because there was a third woman in the picture. But somehow, I am supposed to accept fault in this? Nope. Sorry. Nope.

  • Umm….Sociopath on Line 2.

    This guy needs to understand that an affair is not always a symptom of relationship problems, but instead is often the primary cause. If it’s a symptom of anything, it’s a symptom of personal issues contained within the cheating spouse. Anyway, you can’t love 2 people in that way with the same energy at the same time. If you’re going to pour your emotions and energy into an affair, then you are necessarily taking energy and emotion from your marriage. Thus your marriage begins to look worse and worse over time, and then when it bottoms out, the cheater can justify his/her affair by saying “see, it sucked anyway.”

    • YES! This! Lost2015, this is so true! I poured my all into the marriage. I ate a steady stream of “I’m not good enough ” that I basically withered away. Absolutely, he was taking all resources of time and money and spending them on others. For at least a dozen years. The grass truly is greener where you water it. I’m firmly comfortable with the fact that he owns the demise, and total destruction of the marriage. I did the best I could with what I had, and when I was ready, I got out. I hold zero blame or guilt in the destruction of the marriage. I resent the gdmmit types that seek to spread around the blame.

    • you can’t love 2 people in that way with the same energy at the same time. If you’re going to pour your emotions and energy into an affair, then you are necessarily taking energy and emotion from your marriage. Thus your marriage begins to look worse and worse over time, and then when it bottoms out, the cheater can justify his/her affair by saying “see, it sucked anyway.”

      So right

    • YUP!!!! Exactly! So you made a “mistake” … ok I will accept that. What I won’t accept is you not acting like a fucking adult and owning your “mistake”. Taking positive steps to rectify your mistake. You make a mistake at work and your boss says don’t do it again and you don’t do it again and then work extra hard to make him realize it was a one time screw up and you really are a worthwhile employee to keep around. I will accept that “mistake”. Instead all these bullshit justifications how I should have known there were issues… without you actually saying them out loud. My mind reading powers were all tuckered out by the years of infertility treatments I was undergoing while you were making your “mistake”. But yes, while you were holding my hand during the daily shots I was giving myself, I should have looked into your eyes and seen how unhappy YOU were. My bad…

      Your “mistake” cost a fucking fortune. Your “mistake” made a little 5 year old feel like a ping pong ball being tossed back and forth between houses. Your ” mistake” you are currently still fucking … BUT your “mistake” also gave me freedom from your mindfuckery… so thanks for that 🙂

      The justifications these assholes come up with to be able to live with themselves would be hysterical if it was ruining lives in the process!

      • Yeah, or more specifically, it’s a symptom of a *personal* problem (i.e., the cheater’s problem), a complete inability to face issues, have adult conversations about them, and identify and worth through feelings with some critical self-reflection.

    • Agree, Lost. These trolls don’t pay any attention to the research:

      The only available source is from Shirley Glass, who found that most cheaters did NOT report marital problems, and very few actually contemplated leaving their marriages.

      Even if you admit some marriages have problems, it’s usually both partners who perceive problems, yet only 1 cheats. That’s an issue of character.

      And marriages with problems are like fencing duels, to which cheaters bring a hand grenade. Against the rules, it blows a whole through the middle of the chump (metaphorically) + any children, and game is over. No winners. Done. Over.

      As to cheaters having feelings–yes, FOR THEMSELVES. They are sad they got caught, and anxious that they will suffer decreased reputation and standard of living. They hurt, I tell you! Empathy for the chump’s pain? Not so much. Children suffering? Collateral damage for their orgasmic needs. Selfish little odious lumps of carbon-based material.

  • This column is actually pretty well-timed for me as I just found out that an acquaintance of ours has cheated on his wife with the wife of another friend. Now, this cheating friend, Pete, is a an amiable, funny guy. In fact, I like Pete better than I like his wife, who is a cold, judgmental, uptight twit. BUT that doesn’t make Pete’s cheating OK.

    Just because I can see why Pete would be unhappy, doesn’t mean I support his choices. He had a lot of options besides cheating. He could have told his wife he was unhappy, asked her to go to counseling, or asked for a separation/divorce.

    I feel differently about him than I did before I found out he cheated. I don’t trust him as much. I don’t see him as having the integrity I thought he had. I don’t feel as comfortable spending time around him. Is this unfair? Maybe. But he made bad choices and bad choices have consequences.

    • Maybe being with a guy like Pete doesn’t bring out the wife’s best self. Or maybe she’s a jerk, but Pete just made himself way more of a jerk. I think he gets the suck trophy.

      • I agree with CL – being Pete’s wife probably wasn’t easy. I know I wasn’t myself when around XH – – probably acted very uptight mainly because I was always walking on eggshells around him. Give Pete’s wife a chance, she could probably really use your advice and support right about now.

        • Just want to clarify, I do feel badly for the wife. I just don’t ever seeing myself developing a friendship with her. Our personalities are just too different. I do see myself dialing any friendship with Pete waaaay back. Because of the suck trophy.

        • Pete’s wife was maybe angry and pissy and bitchy BECAUSE he was cheating! Whether she knew it or not, she probably knew things weren’t ok. If Pete was anything like MY fuckity fuckwit lying cheater, he made certain other people saw her as the grumpy/bitchy one and made even MORE certain they saw him as the poor, oh-so-trying sad sausage. It’s horrible. I see in retrospect how my cheater played me in front of others – pushing all the right buttons, nudging and pinching and shoving until I’d finally lash out to defend myself in response to the abuse and horrific gaslighting. The only part others saw was what appeared to be my bitchy responses or “behaviors” (which was more than normal in those situations)….but what they missed were all the abusive moments that led up to the one they actually witnessed (and that wasn’t random, it was planned). Cheaty McFuckwit had that game down pat. It’s no mystery why people almost always assume I’m the “bad guy” here. GAH!!!!!! They weren’t seeing the whole picture

          • Oooooooh how familiar ^^^^THIS^^^^ sounds!! Asshole was always telling me how “negative” I was and later this was his “go to” excuse for everything including cheating…..she was SO negative. It’s hard to spackle over the obvious after YEARS of covering and enabling, my calling him out on his obvious fuck-ups made him feel “bad”. So sorry asshole, your repeated selfishness and poor decisions don’t just affect you…it affected me and the kids and I just couldn’t pretend he was “perfect”. That’s his mother’s job, coincidentally that’s where he is living…in Mommy’s basement.

            I loved him more than I loved myself but truthfully life with him sucked because he sucked at everything that didn’t benefit him or give him instant gratification. You know….all the grown up stuff… responsibilities.

            • Loving somebody more than your love yourself might be a problem. You’re a person. You deserve just as much respect from yourself as you afford others, most likely.

          • Chumpedupedchick – your ex sounds like a psychopath. They are very calculating and try to elicit these bad “make you crazy” situations for others to see. Your “downfall in behavior” ( which he perfectly orchestrated ) is then used against you and and the new his new “target, is made to seem like his savior from you. I hate psychopath cheaters. They are pure evil and masters at deception and manipulation.

      • I’ve spent time around his wife without Pete. she’s still a twit. BUT again, that doesn’t give Pete a free pass to do what he did. His wife’s unpleasant personality is a separate issue from his entitlement and the permission he gave himself to cheat. He definitely gets the suck trophy.

          • It has taken me 5 years to unearth my pre-NP optimistic open extrovert personality (mostly) after 25 married years in beat-down withdrawn shelter-dog avoidance teatotalling no-music etc mode. Not that that comment made me defensive or anything. Why would it.

          • According to people who knew who before, she’s been like this since she was a kid. But again, Pete went into the marriage knowing this.

            • That’s really the point. It’s not like she was someone else and changed. She might be a twit.. but she was always a twit. She didn’t start whoring around, drinking excessively or beating him up or anything. She was the same twit she always was and he must have loved her for some reason. No one held a gun to his head to marry or.. or to stay married to her.

              Bravo to you Pucks for distancing from Pete. Some people are toxic. It’s better not to keep them too close.

              • Yep. And it will make things socially awkward within my friend group, but I just can’t imagine looking at Pete the same way. Or giving him the sense that I condone his actions.

              • Good choice here PucksMuse! Choosing friends you can feel comfortable with based on character. This is a big part of creating better boundaries — getting our picker to work like this. Lovable sparkly Pete is also cheater entitled Pete. Twerpy grey xwife was also honorable xwife. No contest.

      • CL brings up a great point here. Sometimes chumps might seem “uptight” and “rigid” and perhaps some are, after all, none of us are perfect. My STBX would say I was uptight, too anxious, too worried about money, and depressed.

        But what sausage never seemed to put together is.. my anxiety and fear was rooted in his erratic behavior. Pretty much all of our marriage. Sometimes it was job insecurity, sometimes it was wild spending, sometimes it was drinking too much, or gambling, or hiding spending/money issues.. and of course, the final straw.. schmoopie (women can sense these things) whatever it was.. he CREATED anxiety in me, which made me more uptight, and more depressed. Not saying I don’t have personality traits that aren’t pleasant, god knows I do.. but his activities greatly increased these. Making me look like the uptight wench.. when really, I was just trying to be the grown up. Pay bills, take care of kids, budget, plan ahead.. you know.. all that boring “adult” stuff.

        My STBX seems like an amiable guy too, and he is.. but he’s also not a grownup.. cue the cheating. Future schmoopies will figure this out.. the smart ones, and the dumb ones.. like the original schmoopie.. will just drag him down-they’ll spend his money, promote his bad habits (original schmoopie has him smoking again), and not expect much from him.. and they won’t be there for the long haul. But hey, not my circus, not my monkey. There are guys who will appreciate a stand up, loyal, practical and smart woman who gets shit done. I just spent too many years with someone who made my good qualities into BAD qualities.

        • My XH gaslighted me into believing that I had a serious, medical-grade anxiety and depression problem. Told me I needed help, found me a doctor, got me into years of therapy and medication. This obviously helped him with his addiction to prostitutes, because every time I thought something was “off” or questioned him about something, he reminded me that I was emotionally unstable and that I needed to call my doctor.

          I realized after I moved out that my “serious mental problem” was largely related to dealing with him. A year later, I’m off medication for the first time in ten years and doing great.

          Point being, living with the emotional abuse of a true narcissistic cheater changes you. I’ll never forgive that asshole for making me think I had a serious emotional problem just to facilitate his cheating.

          • Jedi hugs DefyingGravity and a big salute for finding so much of yourself. After my ex left even the freaky cat became sane, the beat down is not always obvious when we are in it. For the record, I am not comparing you to a cat! Rock on!

          • newchumpatl….you said it and so well! THIS!!!! My story, too! Drinking, spending, increasingly doing his own thing, disconnected from our three kids (downright hostile to our daughter when she entered her teens – must’ve been competition – can’t have two adolescents in the house, you know!) and me doing all of the heavy lifting for over half of our twenty-year marriage. And having the gall to leave like a pre-schooler who knocks down the tower of blocks (our marriage and family) because he’s not getting his way (HIS needs aren’t being met).

        • newchumpatl “my anxiety and fear was rooted in his erratic behavior”
          OMG YES!!!!! A thousand times YES!!!!!!
          Me too!!!!
          My oldest friends and family all say how nice it is to have me back!!!!

          All the games, gas lighting and lies made me walk on eggshells and I had no idea how much that tension and stress showed to the world. My neighbors all think I’m uptight and irrational and the HasBeen has totally played them into that for his reputation management. Luckily I don’t have to care, they’re not my support system but I see it happening.

        • Yes, mine was convinced he was always trying to de-stress me. Well, if I wasn’t criticized so much, and had help with parenting (instead of his making the job harder), perhaps I would have been my usual happy self. I am now.

          • Her: You are holding the baby wrong.
            Me: I watched her birth, if her head didn’t fall off then, it’s not going to fall off in my hands.

            Her: You are letting her shimmy up the basketball pole, what if she falls.
            Me: One of three things will happen, she’ll try again and get better, she won’t ever try again, or she may not even fall in the first place. Two out of three of those scenarios has her gaining confidence, let’s see how this plays out.

            Her: Do you think she should move in with you and go to high school in your school district. You know how nervous she is.
            Me: How will she ever learn to relax and become confident if you are constantly getting in the way of her become strong and confident? This is something she says she wants, why don’t we let her pursue her goals. Besides, I don’t trust you. If she’s nervous, she needs to tell me about it.

            The first two were when we were married. Apparently my style of “free range” parenting didn’t suit her. She had to know who I was. After all, the first five times I few in a plane, I parachuted to the ground. Who did she think I was?

            The last was 8 years after we divorced. Now that DD lives with me most of the time, perhaps the reason she was so “nervous” was due to her mother’s example.

            Or maybe mother was just transferring her fears onto our child.

            • Or your kid was picking up the narkles. Apropos of Dat’s comment above, both my kid and my cat were considerably more chilled out after I kicked Mr Fab out of the house. Not happy, but, equally, not constantly swivelling their heads to see where the next two by four was coming from. It’s the walking in eggshells.

              Honestly, we waited on the guy hand and foot. Never knew if we’d get a thank you for bringing him dinner, or if we’s get told off for bringing him the wrong spoon. I shit you not, we had a ‘wrong spoon’. I kept it when I left. The spoon is a lot happier, too.

              • Can’t wait to see how my cat reacts when the HasBeen leaves. Bet he chills out a lot with out the smell of the ho’s cat on things in the house.

              • LOL-a “wrong spoon?” Who knew such a thing existed? It is so absurd when you hear it from another Chump, until you realize you lived through your own distortions of disorder. Thank God you got that spoon to safety.

            • Those of us who tried to get the dads to ANYthing connected to our children when young, salute you Uniballer, for being an involved father.

        • add me to this group too. i was so stressed and busy keeping up afloat, i did not notice how “boring” i got….. well that plus i was grieving and forgive me but it just was not fun going to the bar every weekend when Diablo refused to dance, would not play pool, always ended up skunk drunk and belligerent to anyone we were socializing with. I also have zero desire to socialize with drug dealers, woman who benevolently give up their children so they can stay up late partying and fucking strangers (i dont even know what to call woman like that), and losers who sit there whining about how sad their lives are without doing a damn thing to make it better.

          i will never as fun and easy going as his ghetto rat. I am actually a little uptight and irrational, i never have given a flying fuck what other people think of me. i am nice and polite to just about everyone including the dealers and crackwhores but that doesnt mean i want to hang out with them, and i damn sure dont want them around my kids. And just because i am polite does not mean that i agree with their life choices nor am i worried about what they might think of me. i dont ask people for shit so i owe nobody nothing. Diablo was always so worried about what people thing, what his cousins would think, what his boss would think…..me, i live my life the best way i can, i make good choices, i do not lie, i do not steal, i pay for my own shit…..i dont have to worry about what anyone thinks.

          now that the stress and pain he was putting me thou is gone, the more fun and easy going MrsVain is coming back. i will still stress over keeping on top of things but i can loosen up and laugh every now and then. i can say the hell with the dishes tonight i am going to bed early or i am watching this movie with the boys….. i still dont go to the bar but i was over that 10 years ago.

          of course in the cheaters mind. it is NEVER their fault. Diablo would complain that i never wanted to do anything (which was true, i was mourning) but whenever i suggested anything, going to the park, going fishing, going to the mountains he would always find something to turn it down. when he said i never wanted to do anything he meant i never wanted to go to the bar and get drunk anymore, i never wanted to go to the dealer down the street and act like he was a swell guy just because he has alcohol on sunday, i never wanted to go to his crack head sisters who literally sell their bodies for drugs and let the state take their babies while crying how much the love those babies and would do anything for them.

          fuck them all… bunch of leeches. suck all our goodness because they have none

    • His wife is a ‘twit’ huh? Then why did he marry her? I’m betting she’s not as bad as he makes her out to be. All is made null and void by his fuckwittery.

      My personal policy is this: If I find out someone is a cheater, I immediately cull them and forever out of my life – to the point where I won’t even interact in the same social situation as them, in company of others. I don’t give a fuck as to your reasoning – you have shown me, in spades, you are a lying prick.
      If people in the same social circle condone their actions – they get culled too. I refuse to interact with a cheater or a cheater apologist in any form, except to call them out on their shit if they try to push their crap in my presence (which is rare, probably most often on here in fact) – because mostly I refuse to interact with people like that.
      I also don’t lie and pussyfoot around – if someone tries to do that, I set them straight. An example was this: At my old job – the director of department cheated on his wife for a skank half his age – of who had very weird ideas about the world, parenting and such. People would talk about these two, of which I would say “I don’t want to hear about cheaters.” If it means I lose friends over it – its no loss either. I’d rather have 3 friends in the world who are decent, upstanding human beings with morals and a conscience, than 300 which are morally bankrupt and can’t even hold to ethical behaviour in life.

  • All adults are responsible for their own “needs” as far as I’m concerned. And looking back to college days, I don’t recall “banging strange ass” being on the hierarchy. Or being a liar, or a cheater. Ninety nine percent of the time, the chump is the one contributing to the relationship, not the other way around.

  • Gdmmt, I don’t go on a support group web site for scam victims and tell them how stupid they were responding to an e-mail from a Nigerian Prince… especially if the site is offering valuable advice on how to protect themselves and make better decisions in the future.

    I can assure you that us chumps are more than aware of our flaws… we cataloged each one thoroughly after (and many times before) we discovered we were cheated on. We grieve deeply over the mistakes that we made and things we could’ve done to make our marriages better because we actually took our marital vows to heart.

    It is cheaters who are, more often than not, incapable of self reflection. It is they that paint themselves as victims in order to justify their behavior. Most of them would probably admit to enjoying married life, they just need a little piece on the side. It’s only AFTER their affairs are discovered that they suddenly produce a long list of grievances to justify their actions. Why aren’t you visiting one of the many adultery-related or pro-reconciliation forums available in abundance on the Internet and shouting them down?

    And yeah, you’re damn right that I’m the only one that matters here! Because after spending years devoted to a man, doing everything that I could to make him happy and saving our marriage, I deserve to focus on myself entirely… just as he did the entirety of our relationship.

  • Gdmmt is under the erroneous supposition that ALL cheaters cheat because something is supposedly ‘missing’ in the relationship/marriage. And that supposed missing element is, of course, partly the fault of the betrayed spouse.

    While that may be true in some cases, it ain’t ALWAYS true.

    What Gdmmt is completely ignoring are all the cheaters who cheat simply for SPORT.

    They do it because they can. Because it’s fun and exciting. Because it gives them a little lift in their otherwise mundane, day-to-day lives. Because it adds a little variety for them instead of always having sex with the same old person at home year after year.

    Yes Gdmmt, you’d be surprised at how many men I’ve heard whining over the last 30 years about being ‘bored’ because they wanted VARIETY. Nothing the wife was doing wrong, she just didn’t have the capability of magically morphing herself into the blonde he saw at Walmart an hour ago in the paint aisle.

    And what about those who want to fly their freak flags and seek it elsewhere? Sex with trannys, Asian massage parlors, secret homosexual activity with other guys from Craigslist, paying someone to kick them in the balls with stiletto heels, and the list just goes on and on. Is that the wife’s fault too, because she isn’t a tranny or because she doesn’t run an Asian Massage Parlor on the side while cooking his meals and doing his laundry and taking care of the kids? Why, the selfish bitch. How DARE she claim to be a victim?

    Gdmmt actually sounds like your everyday, garden variety cheater whose all butt-hurt that we’re not considering the feelings of the poor put-upon cheater and their ‘victimhood.’

    Don’t worry Gdmmt. There are more than a few infidelity sites where the betrayeds delude themselves into thinking cheaters need understanding and forgiveness no matter how bad their atrocities were and no matter how much of their pride they have to swallow in order to do it. Just go read there, instead.

    • I have to disagree with you Fan. No cheater cheats because something is missing from the marriage. Not even one.

      Cheaters cheat because they lack the character to end the marriage honestly when they’re unhappy. It really is quite that simple.

      I was married for close to 26 years. My list of unmet needs before and after the ex’s affair was staggering. I didn’t cheat and it’s not like I didn’t have opportunities.

      As a matter of fact, about 2 years into our wreckconciliation I realized things weren’t working out. I kept having the “big conversation” with myself because I was practicing for the big day.

      The tipping point was when I got a proposition that I started fantasizing about actually doing. I asked for a divorce the next day. I figured I had given reconciliation a shot; I wasn’t getting what I needed so I told him that I didn’t think we were working. If it was getting to the point where I wanted to sleep with someone else it was over for me.

      What did he do? Did he change, try to participate more? No! He set up dating profiles while he begged me to stay through the holidays. As for me? That fantasy didn’t happen before, during or after my divorce. I decided to focus on me.

      There is absolutely NO instance when a cheater cheats because they’re missing something. People with integrity don’t cheat.

      • I agree. There is NO way to be happy with most of these habitual cheaters. Our marriages were doomed from day 1, we just didn’t know that.

        Cheaters engage in tawdry sexual behavior, then spill their justification when they are caught. David B (below) is also correct–meet one of their demands, they raise the bar. Marriage vows don’t say both parties have to be perfect or there would be ZERO marriages. There is no winning with a cheater. None. Just escape and go NC as best you can.

      • Yep, everyone has unmet needs or wants. The difference is how they address them.

        Cheating on your spouse is more about poor character than it is about poorly met needs. After all, it’s likely, BOTH spouses have needs that were poorly met by the other. The difference is how they choose to respond in the circumstance.

    • This is the first time I felt the true need to comment. Actually since finding this site and passing it along to several of my small group friends, I have often wanted to say, YES,YES! But it is hard finding your voice after 13 years being constantly confused as to what was happening. And the fog tends to linger…. I married my husband 13 years ago, no kids, both careered in different areas. He seemed so sweet, affectionate, funny…said and did all the right things, whirlwind romance…married in eight months. Almost immediately I knew something was off…he stopped being as affectionate, didn’t see the need to help with household mundane chores, started to deny sex….within six months In this we were in counseling…I had no clue what was happening, spending all my time trying to make him happy, buy him happy, talk to him about his needs or what was wrong….fast forward to moving me across the country for HIS career, mine no longer as important or all my clients, my college aged children , my ill mother…leave them behind, sex non existent now, tells me he is a non sexual person, never had been sexual…?WTF? How would I not know that…tells me he CANT have sex…doesn’t want help…but loves me and our life…no affection EVER, not allowed to touch him, pillows between us at nite….I can’t believe it that I stayed, but as my counselor said, He’s very very good at manipulation…had her and many fooled for a long time….then DDay last fall….HUNDREDS of other women hid in an email account I stumbled across, Ashley Madison, women at his job, he had so much going on on his four face books, many emails….all those downloaded apps.(I can be techy too), he and our neighbors husband together supporting each other lying to both of us (she just divorced).
      When asked why? Why not just say something if he wanted something else? Why drag me along on another move? Oh, he was happy married to me, loved our life and never wanted that to change….just said it made him FEEL good about himself…loved being liked and wanted by all those women…even chased women he wasn’t attracted to to make them want them, then dumped them. He said the more he got the more he wanted, more, different, riskier, because he likes taking risks you know, he’s a daring kind of guy. He admitted he ENJOYED being sneaky, secretive, and lying…he said LYING made people like him. But I don’t get it he says…its not as bad as my perception of HIS reality…he never wanted to leave me….it wasn’t me, I was a great supportive kind wife…a good person, he said. What’s wrong with our life? He wondered, as long as I didn’t know how was that hurting me? I just sat looking at him….now I’m speechless, not to mention threw up a little in my mouth!
      After being diagnosed a sex addict (ya think), Attachment disorder, NPD, ADD….several months of counseling…him…trickle down truth over ten months…the picture growing ever bigger….were now at eight years of admitted cheating and lying…I’m sure it’s longer…and no, He won’t do a polygraph as he’s sure He won’t pass with his anxiety…but I love you and promise I’m a changed person.
      Bottom line…with the help of chump lady I realize…the true problem all along was he simply is an entitled, selfish, ass lacking any type of character. He did it because he could….felt he deserved to have his fun…didn’t once think he needed to stop or be concerned about me or our life together at all. End of story. One more thing…if the AP thinks they know for one minute what our cheating spouses want or need…they better think again….a liar is a liar is a liar….I got to read ALOT of emails and texts from my cheating husband to the OW before he was aware I knew….he lied through his teeth to all of them. It was a game…most likely still is. I’m removing myself from the playing field.

        • Jenpen – wow! Take your life back! Cheater McFuckwit also told me he did not see how I was harmed so long as I didn’t KNOW what he was doing “out there.” W.T.F.? He said if I hadn’t gone nosing around, everything would be fine. Again, I could only stare at him in bewilderment (as you described doing) and think W.T.F.H.? He is beyond disordered and fucked up if he believes that. Well, actually he’s never NOT going to believe that whatever HE does is fine – so long as I don’t know or he thinks I can’t find out. That simply means he’s going to continue doing whatever the fuck he wants, and he will just change some of his tactics since I’ve learned about many of the ways he duped me already (while I was “NOSING around”). Fuck that shit. 25 wasted years. Now I’m planning my escape. Gonna ride outta this cesspool he created asap – on one of those ducks I’m lining up.

          He made it clear he would never let me go easy – so I need to be smart about it. Once you decide you’re out, things seem better even IF you can’t extricate yourself that very moment (unless there is physical or other abuse that one can not deal with of course). I guess I’ve extricated my heart and mind at least, even if it hurts and I didn’t want this, and there’s relief for me in making the decision even though I can’t act on it just yet. Sounds like you did too – not playing ball on THAT shitty field. Good for you! Big hugs

          • JenPen and chumpedupchik, mine said the same. Also that he was “protecting me” and “they meant nothing” and “it had nothing to do with me.” It was bewildering. Even more dumbfounding, he truly seemed at a loss to understand how I could walk away from an otherwise perfect marriage.

            Excuse me while I gag for a moment.

            Anyway, I’ve removed myself from the playing field (love that phrase) and life is increasingly great. I hope you get free soon.

        • JenPen

          So glad your here and sharing. X’s behavior was the same. Moved to Florida when I was in my last year of graduate school. There were BIG promises with NO substance. They want to take you along the ride to hell with them with not a care about your needs. They prime us. I stopped following him after I list my home and had to file bankruptcy. This was when my depression started, my hair stopped growing and I went through menopause in my early 40’s, literally overnight. Hoping you have an exit plan and screw the counseling with him. Please don’t waste another second on the dusirdered. Take care if you and find your own therapist. I wasted 14 more years. Don’t tollerste this abuse.

      • JenPen.. Welcome. Thanks for telling your story. I am glad you are shaking free of this guy. He’s a sicko and you deserve better.

        These people don’t change.. this forum is full of people just like you, and we get it. Hugs and good luck with your new cheater free life. It’s better on the other side.

        • Wow JenPen, you boiled down a whole lotta essential truths about life with the Disordered Ones into a few cogent paragraphs. Well done. Truth. Preach it. Thank you for sharing — such a clear view with his “huh?” responses. I got the same nonlogic — if I didn’t know about cheating, then why was it a problem? From the guy who was always angry exhausted and absent. 25 years. Huh indeed. Now he tells people I left him because — he guesses charmingly ruefully — I didn’t like that he worked so hard.

      • Welcome jenpen, things are great here on the sidelines off the playing field! My authentic life may not be excited and drama filled but it’s peaceful and full of real love from my friends and family.

        I too heard a lot of voice mails from the HasBeen to his AP. I particularly eye roll at the ones where he was so miserable having to go do something that he told me and our children he was excited about. I truly hope his AP divorces and marries him and they experience their twu wuv constantly having to go everywhere together and be with each other all the time or risk wondering if the other is cheating since ether know the capability is there.

      • Welcome to ChumpNation jenpen! Feels good to get your story off your chest and know that you’re not crazy, right?
        He doesn’t have ‘sex addiction’ as that term is a crock of shit. He is just a narcissistic fuckwit where everything in life must revolve around him and his needs. People like this don’t change, and they just try to manipulate others into providing for them. Even therapy is just a means for them to refine their manipulation tactics.
        He won’t do a polygraph because he knows damn well he’s lying. That is the only reason why. Also, you’re correct that its all a game to him. He doesn’t give a fuck about anyone except himself.
        Run like hell from this bastard, if you haven’t already! Take the time, if any, to collect evidence away from him, and go for the jugular.

  • What i found out is….. Mine expressed needs and wants. Each and every time I achieved one, she would up the bar. There was no needs she needed met from me! It was just an illusion a mind fuck. A distraction…. a way to make her feel good about herself…. justification…. A person of character would have just left and moved on!

    • OMG, my STBX did this too. On DDay he gave me a laundry list of my faults.. some of them ridiculous but others I took to heart, because they were valid. So I tried to fix them. I went on anxiety meds, found a marriage counselor, tried to plan dates/time with him, upped sex.

      After a few months of this (and him continuing contact with the whore on the side) he started nit picking my efforts. That’s when I knew I was done.

      Mindfuckery and cruelty.

      • Yes, the goalposts were always moving. Fix one thing, and another one popped up. Fixed it but didn’t fix it the right way. Fixed it but it doesn’t stay fixed. Fixed it but that created a whole new problem. Fixed it but that just shows how bad something else is by comparison.
        In the end, the only thing broken is the chump’s spirit.

        • Yup. Mine set me up to fail. Moving goalposts, all that s**t. I felt like I was going crazy. All so he could blame me rather than admit to OW.

          • You know, I never thought about this! He was constantly on my back about something…what he nagged me about, I repaired. Then we had something else that was not up to his standards…WOW. It moved through the whole marriage and invaded every aspect of our relationship. I could just never measure up and he delighted in telling MANY all of my flaws.

            • My life as well. The moving goal posts. The laundry lists of the ways i didn’t measure up. I tried and tried and pretzelled and bent and considered things i never in my right mind would consider all to “keep him” – and i was so convinced he was such a prize catch. Even now, almost 5 years later i feel the guilt that i couldn’t “meet his needs”. Luckily for me he has remarried his EAP (emotional AP) and she doesn’t appear to like to bend quite so much. May they have all the happiness they deserve.

    • Exactly,DavidB!!! Same thing here. I describe her as being a bottomless pit of unmet needs and wants. No matter what ya do, there’s always something more you must do to make them happy.

  • He thinks the cheaters we were married to gave us a laundry list of things we needed to change in order to please and satisfy them, and then they waited patiently for us to comply? Yeah right. Mine wrote me love notes and acted like he was totally and completely devoted to me. To my face, he treated me like a princess and I had NO IDEA he was unhappy. Basically, I don’t think he really was. I think he just liked to fuck co-workers AND be married. But, of course, the minute he was busted, SUDDENLY, he’d been miserable the entire time we were together. LOL.

    • LOL…right? Just as you described, I’ve seen SO many married couples that seem so happy and content and the husband is oh so adoring toward his wife and blah blah blah.

      That is, until she leaves the room.

      Then, he suddenly devolves into a classless, hormonal baboon, scouting the room and commenting on every woman he sees and talking about how he’d like to bang the brunette 3 tables over. I’ve also seen quite a few of them start bragging to their buddies about the ho they picked up at the bar a couple nights before and brag about the strange piece they got.

      Then wifey comes back into the room and the phony adoration begins all over again.

    • Carol, that was my exact situation. My ex was a devoted husband, always telling me he loved me, always saying he would never want to divorce or leave, always saying he was happy. Right up until dday, when the story changed to he never should have married me, we had nothing in common, he’d basically been miserable since the day we met. Of course, as it turns out, he was cheating non-stop from our dating days until we divorced. Not much opportunity in any of that for me to figure out what was wrong and fix it, even if that had been possible.

    • Yep, same thing. Mine told me he’d “never been happy” and “we should have never gotten married” and if “not for our kids, we’d have never stayed together” (one of our kids is just 4.. so 4 years ago we HAD a kid).

      Bullshit, all of it.

      • I love hearing stories that help me realize I’m not alone. My asshole cheater narc was banging whores from the 2nd month in, proposed to me on his own volition and when he got caught….OH HE’S THE SADDEST SAUSAGE ON THE PLANET. Never had happiness. Never got over his ex. Never felt validated. Never felt supported. blah blah let me call the wahhhmbulance for you.

  • And here’s the thing. The one I didn’t understand till CL. These losers aren’t unhappy. Statistics prove this. Unhappy people leave. They want a side fuck, and their real life too. Cause they know the side fuck is not relationship material. Most people cheat cause there is an available, easy lay. And poor character, of course. On the part of both cheaters. No victims there.

    • In Asshat’s case it’s a lovely combination of a lack of self control and a knack for rewriting history to serve his own selfish needs. And I do think deep down, he is happy but will never be satisfied. The grass is always greener. I thought the fear of missing out was something you grew out of as you mature.

    • Mine was definitely unhappy. Always was. He’s just a miserable person who is tortured by self loathing. The problem is, he decided it was my fault instead of getting therapy or doing some self reflection. He decided some strange would be the answer. Typical.

      • People are so mismatched.

        I spent a lot of time miserable and depressed and did everything I could to get better (therapy, meds, reading everything I could get my hands on) and also to reassure my ex that none of it was due to her and that she was the best thing in my life. I compensated like a mad man for the times when I was too depressed to participate in activities. My efforts were never good enough and off she went.

        You were patient and loving towards an asshat who took it for granted. WTF? Yes, I’m going to sound like a crybaby, but life is so fucking unfair.

  • Gdmmt, poor child, you get a F- in Logic 101, and Rhetoric 101. And also in being a human being.

    Cheating on your spouse is “not the optimal choice” for dealing with marital issues? You don’t say.

    Per the same logic,

    Burning your home down is “not the optimal choice” for dealing with plaid wallpaper.
    Amputating your leg is “not the optimal choice” for dealing with a peeling pedicure.
    Hydrofluoric acid is “not the optimal choice” for dealing with halitosis.

    Cheating on a spouse is one of the most devastating actions a person can take against another person. You clearly don’t get that, Gdmmt. And we can explain it for you, but we can’t understand it for you.

    You sound young. That’s a good thing. You still have time to grow a soul. Good luck with your gardening.

  • Excellent UBT once again CL.

    The “gdmmt” poster is obviously bitter, angry, a bully, and wants to maintain the cheater narrative as being the true victim.

    Supposedly cheaters don’t know what to do, it’s their spouse who is the cause for signing up on Ashley Madison, it’s their spouse who forced them to take groin selfies in the washroom, it’s their spouse who forced them to miss their kids events or time with them because they were forced to give up family time in order to suck cock or inject anal beads up their arse.

    Cheaters are the “victims” they are forced to reinvent themselves in motel rooms, back seat of the family van, forced to groom their junk…and it hurts to rip that wax off from your balls, it hurts to be a cheater.

    Cheaters are in pain, they don’t want to cheat but the spouse gave them no choice.

    Everday cheaters arrive in hospital emergency rooms all over the country with wax burned groins, SHARTING themselves because the anal beads got stuck up there, dicks bent out of shape because of the the threesome they felt forced to participate in with Craig list hookups. Cheaters with severe handcrampsfrom having to write love letters and slam poetry…it hurts….they sexting digits hurts….holding in farts hurts when cheating and suffer from becoming bloated hurts ….cheaters are suffering and it’s the spouses fault.

    Cheaters are the victims, “gdmmt” didn’t know what to do, “gdmmt” got confused and in the confusion dialed 1- 800 -Fuck-Buddy instead of a marriage counsellor or divorce lawyer.

    Poor cheaters, they have feelings, especially in their junk.

  • I haven’t read all the comments yet, but my first reaction is the fact that in MOST cases, the cheater WAS getting their need met in their marriage. They cheated anyhow.

    • The overwhelming majority of cheaters were getting their NEEDS met within the marriage, just not their WANTS. Cheaters are perpetual adolescents and so don’t understand the difference. Most cheaters WANT to fuck around and keep their spouse in the dark. It is impossible for a spouse to satisfy that want.

      • Well put concerning wants vs needs… I was told at one point:

        “I wanted to feel butterflies”

        Poster child for an immature, self centered adolescent. Seems you got them, along with destroying two families, a 23 year marriage with a person of character and functioning moral compass, and the trust and respect of a beautiful kind daughter… There is NO WAY these cheater scumbags are not completely off of their rockers. To be able to live a complete double life so seamlessly, lie so easily and so much, have ZERO empathy for their deeds; hell she reveled in them using her own words!

        I am so glad to be divorced (Dec 2013), and have that cancer cut out of my life. I do however hate the fact that this POS is still the mother to my 19 y/o daughter, and I do wish my exPOS would stop taking up breathing. OK gdmmt, bring out the bitter bunny… Nah, just go fuck yourself.

          • On the cheater support site “adultery” (subreddit), they call those butterflies and that passion “NRE” (New Relationship Energy). They warn each other not to get too blinded by its overpowering awesomeness. Because if you get too blinded you might slip up, make a mistake, and GET CAUGHT BY YOUR SPOUSE. Because — they are all about protecting their marriages. Sick fuckwads all.

            • Oh boy, guess all that new energy sparks up “twin flames” too (Raaaaaaaalllllllph)… Why the hell can’t every one of these cheating scumbags take up, I don’t know, competitive arsenic eating??? Cheating couples ESPECIALLY encouraged to sign up. Bon Appétit. (motherfuckers)

              • Or just put that NRE into the existing R. Now there’s a thought. I’ve invested all this time, talent and treasure into my marriage. Maybe I should maintain that investment by investing some more. I might need someone to be with me in my old age, or if I should get sick.

                It’s short term (or short body part) thinking that leads these people into investing outside their marriage.

                It’s not that the grass is greener on the other side. It’s that the grass is greener where it’s maintained.

                Good grief, people really are stupid.

                It’s that entitlement mindset. I deserve something, even if I don’t do any work. It’s too hard, someone else should do the work. Someone else should pay, they have all the money, talent, looks, whatever.

                We’ve become a nation of what’s in it for me. Not what I can do for me and my family, spouse, etc.

            • So pathetic that these are GROWN ASS PEOPLE and they don’t know that the 8th grade butterflies don’t last? Sheesh.. did they stop maturing in high school?

              Oh wait, I just answered my own question.

            • Personally, I’m more a fan of NSRE, or Newfound Self-Respect Energy.

              It’s at its most potent when channeled directly up a cheater’s ass in divorce court!

              • Fucking-A!… Must have had NSRE in my divorce; I took less shit off that bitch than a single sheet of Soviet era toilet paper.

                I loved it when all of her lies/shitty attitude got the court official to give her a stern smack down, with the best “bitch please” warning ever… Made my day!

  • gdmmt, seek help; you need it.

    My XW cheated twice that I’m positive about and a couple that I have a hunch on. This took Place over 10 years or more. 10 fucking years. You’d think in those 10 years (married 20) she’d have found some way to tell me she was unsatisfied. You would this that a person that has no problem complaining about this and that could find a way to complain about the relationship TO THE ONE SHE’S IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH. No, she didn’t find another way. She wanted her thrills and kibbles AND she wanted the nice house, good cars, stable husband, great kids, and appear to be a good Christian mother. She wanted it all. She had it all. She was married to a guy that gave everything he had and everything he was to her, his kids and her family. She was married to a guy that was trying to change for the better without any support from her. She controlled all the money, the entertainment, the house. But she wanted her side kibbles too. She wanted her strange dick. She wanted to wear her mask. When her husband started to put up boundaries, that’s when the “exit affair” came up. When her husband wanted to have a very small say in the finances, she left. When he sought happiness in himself and not those around him, she blew her coworker. Yes, I made mistakes. Yes, I did things wrong, the same things society says all men do. I regret all of it. But, gddmmt, guess what; I am a victim. I suffered narcissistic abuse for 23 years. I’d suggest you run back to the RIC where cheaters are worshipped.

    • Wow…. sounds familiar. They like the stable home environment. Someone with a good paycheck…. Show the world what a great wife, mom, etc… they are! That is not something they want to give up… but they like the strange dick….

    • Very similar story to mine. Main difference is that she was a stay at home mom for most of the marriage. I took care of the finances, house, cooking, etc in addition to working. Still wasn’t enough!

      • Same here. I managed to pay off $70k in debt while going through the divorce. I dropped the financial statement as of the day she left 1 Oct 2003 and that’s what the final settlement was based on.

        Any debt she ran up after that date was not part of the settlement. All of my IRA and 401(k) prior to our marriage came off the table.

        I think she ended up with about $14k, her half of the 401(k) increase since the marriage began. I kept the house and 80% of the debt went on my side as it was split based on incomes. That was OK, as I’d already paid off almost all the debt in the two years it took to get divorced.

        Her first lawyer had a lien on the home, since she didn’t pay him. So her portion of the home equity after her 20% of the debt was paid went to him.

        So all sorts of freedom came my way. I think I have 20 months of CS left to pay and I’ll be done with her 100%

    • ChumpDad.. BRAVO. Exactly right.

      Funny towards the end my STBX starting pushing all my boundaries. Thing he knew were my pet peeves… all of a sudden, he was pushing them. Started spending money wildly (I like neat budgets), buying a car we couldn’t afford, etc. He became more and more distant.. leaving me to work a job, take care of kids, a house, all the adult responsibilities. When I would push and try to get him to come to a neighborhood event, to the pool with the kids, or even take his son out to play tennis.. he would find excuses. Now that I look back on it, I see things I spackled before.. he would run off on family vacations for hours. Probably calling the slut. He prioritized HIMSELF. He did what HE wanted. He wanted to pursue his 2 hour nightly workouts, his weird diets, his expensive car, his expensive clothes, new grooming.. all to impress the slut. Well I hope it was worth it.. now we are all blown apart- including HIM. The irony is he accused ME of not loving HIM enough! It’s crazy!

      I just want you guys to know there are women out there that get this and I am SURE all of you will find one like that down the road when you are ready. Many female chumps put up with guys who weren’t present for YEARS.. not 100% present anyway. Sure they paid the bills and came home.. but they were still “distant”. They gave us just enough to think we were okay, we just thought that’s how it was. We got “conditioned” to not expect more from them. All this time there were guys out there like you all, putting your all into it. Like us, you wasted it on the wrong person. But don’t despair- the right partner will receive it. Onward and upward!!!

      • so true that when you look back after D-day you realize the cheater really was not there a lot of the time – mine was always doing what he wanted and very poor at involving the kids/entire family. Too much work to take them to the gym, engage them in house project, have them accompany him on a bike ride. I overlooked because I own a giant barrel of deluxe spackle.

      • “Funny towards the end my STBX starting pushing all my boundaries. Thing he knew were my pet peeves”

        Mine too, little things like every day he leaves stuff lying around for anyone and everyone to trip on, always been an issue, now he doesn’t know what to do when I laugh at it, so he escalates it and two hours later there’s more mess. I just laugh some more.

        What he didn’t know is that every time he did those things he knew were irritating (papers all over countertops, equipment from his business all over the floor, human fecal matter on the toilet seat-could not make that up) all I could do was smile and think “3 months from now I’ll never see that again.” And I would literally laugh. I’m down to just days now of him in my house. I smile a lot, I haven’t been this happy in a long time and all he does is stare at me with a big frown like I said something mean to him.

        • Wow – is there nothing original in Cheaterland. Toward the end of the marriage, on the run up to DDay, my ex took pissing me off to a fine art.
          He would leave bags, boxes etc in the doorway of the living room as he knew I hated it and I think he needed that – all the easier to fuck me over if I am a nagging shrew.
          He ordered so much stuff on ebay that the postman called most days – it was usually unneeded – yet another rucksack or camping equiment that would not be used. He would rip the paper off then drop all the wrappings where he stood and leave the mess for me while his latest purchase would litter our limited living space.
          I realise now that he wanted to provoke a reaction – that was my punishment for his own weakness – I guess that its easier for a coward to use passive aggression and veiled hostility rather than honest dialogue when it comes to exiting a marriage.
          On his final night in the marital bed he left a fragment of shit stained toilet tissue for me to find -that says it all.

  • Three thoughts:

    1. There is merit to Gdmmt’s post in that vilifying and seeking revenge on the cheater precludes you from reflecting on what was missing from your relationship (if anything) pre-affair. In my case I realized that I had neglected my marriage/husband and was overly focused on our children, further, that our relationship lacked fun and that I did not hear his requests (although feeble) for some change. I own that.

    2. There is absolutely no way to justify (as Gdmmt does) that continued cheating is acceptable. None of us can say (with 100% certainty) whether we would cheat or not – unless we have been tempted and refrained. However, most of us have enough integrity that we can be sure that once we started cheating we would not be able to continue that behavior without losing our minds. When I think that my husband spent a few times a week with the co-worker AP — dinners/evenings/sex/walking her dog/ preparing her taxes etc. — and told us he was working late, needed to go into the office on weekends or could not go on our vacations due to work (in reality so he could be with her) I am sick with the betrayal. That is thousands of lies over 2.5 years, and lots of time he “stole” from our marriage and our children/family. Time that could have been used to “work” on his issues with our relationship.

    3. And finally – Gdmmt — the Cheaters referenced on this board are scum – because they have hurt so many people and they have done this despite events that should have served as a wakeup call to anyone with any shred of feeling for anyone other than themselves. True – It is hard to have perspective when you have a problem in your relationship and it is hard to confront and fix problems. A “quickie” with a co-worker could happen. However, most people on this board have been betrayed in ways that are simply outrageous. In my case, my husband got his AP pregnant and convinced her to have an abortion. That clearly should have been the 2×4 that said — SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR MARRIAGE AND SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU AND THIS AFFAIR IS NOT MAKING IT ANY BETTER. That happened in the first six months, yet he continued the affair for another 2 years……..The fact most cheaters carry on despite these “tipping points” where there is clear evidence of human wreckage is where their “scumminess” comes in.

    net – I WILL OWN MY INABILITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND REDRESS A “TIRED” MARRIAGE AFTER 29 YEARS, BUT I WILL NEVER OWN THE AFFAIR AND DOUBLE LIFE THAT WENT WITH IT.

    • Per #3…Yes, most of us have been chumped by cheaters who lived a double life…cheating wasn’t just a mistake, it was a lifestyle. There’s no excusing that, there’s no explaining that, there’s no coming back from that.

    • TiredChump–I’m going to disagree with #1. Yes, marriages have problems, but when cheaters voice their (even feeble) requests for change, it’s all about THEM. They do little of the parenting, little of the household work (even when their spouse has a full-time job), very little cherishing of soon-to-be-chump. But then they get upset that the spouse is too tired and busy to be FUN! and EXCITING!

    • (hit submit too early) and to want to jump their bones every night from sheer love and adoration!! Do they ever ONCE ask the overtired, overworked spouse, “Are you happy? Is there anything I can do to make you happy?” No, they make demands, then go off and fuck strange because their chump spouse, “wasn’t doing enough to make me happy.” Yes–direct quote from my cheater X as I got 5 hours sleep a night trying to juggle all my child- and household tasks as he had HOURS every day to sit in coffee shops with grad-whore and screw her mightily on her twin bed in student housing.

      Sorry–I’m not owning that “marital problems” led to his (or anyone’s) affairs. When there are marital problems with a narcissist, those are typically their fault, too.

    • I appreciate your points but I find it hard to believe I’m the only person on this blog that knows wit 100% certainty that I will not and have never cheated in a relationship.

      • I’m the same way as you, Dat. No amount of temptation, money, power or prestige would make me cheat on my partner. Ever. Other men are practically invisible to me when I’m with someone, and if someone did get up into my face and got past the ‘invisibility’ I would say ‘Back off. I’m taken’. If they persisted they’d probably get a rather nasty injury with said phrase repeated and removing myself from the situation.

          • Yup me to. I had offers and never took any. I firmly believe and have always said “there is one person who will know and I will always have to answer to: ME”. I could never cheat because I would have to live with it.

            • Cue Rob Roy:

              “Honour is what no man can give you, and none can take away. Honour is a man’s gift to himself.”

              Yep, you get one shot at it, let it slip once and it’s forever lost. I truly think if I ever hurt another person even a tenth as much as my ex did to me and my family, it would be a fatal event for me… I truly CAN NOT wrap my head around how these cheating POS can live with themselves. What a legacy; an indelible black mark you yourself chose to tattoo on your soul… Cheaters never get that they destroy themselves in the process, and there is no Phoenix waiting as they self immolate.

    • TiredChump

      I’m not with you on one two or three. Cheaters don’t cheat because your making cookies, working, or cooking dinner. How about this: honey you work so hard doing everything with the kids, my min will watch the kids and were flying to —- for the weekend. You deserved better tired.

      Number two blew me away! Where did that come from? And it leads me to three- fuck trolls and explaining anything to them. The best teacher is life without kibbles or supply. They earned the titles

  • It’s pretty simple. They are liars and cowards and opportunists. They hate their marriage but want to “keep all options open” so they lie to their spouse. Then when caught, they want you to tell them they are nice people? Sorry gdddmnt goddammit or whatever your name is… they ARE pond scum. And who exactly is playing the victim, why the cheater of course… see, nothing is EVER their fault. Even now, they are being “attacked” on this blog.

    • I have simple test that helps me winnow out people of low character who hear my story or others’ … it’s all in the placement of the word “but.” So,

      a) Your marriage/relationship had problems, but cheating is not the way to fix that and it’s wrong.
      or
      b) Cheating is wrong, but your marriage/relationship obviously had problems or it wouldn’t have “happened.”

      If you respond with “(b)” you are not my friend.

  • first things first – brilliant decoding, CL. thanks as always.

    gdmmt, to me, your reasoning is tautologically flawed. you can look up why using the Let Me Google That For You when reading up on how to improve – or end – a marriage honestly.

    what’s missing in your diatribe, erhm, analysis? multiple realities. and facts. i worked on every human flaw i have and every complaint he fairly or unfairly made. XH still cheated. fhe lied for years!! devastated our adult children, ailing elderly parents, and many long time friends who also trusted him.

    Adultery IS wrong. Chumps are victims of STDs, betrayal of the most traumatic magnitude, and loss upon loss. not to mention humiliation and slander…not unlike your words.

    but in the end, chumps are winners when we finally know the truth and are cheater free –and everyday becomes a Tuesday.

    go pick on someone your own size and ilk …in cheaterville.

    • Does this “i worked on every human flaw i have and every complaint he fairly or unfairly made. XH still cheated” remind anyone else of Clara Harris?

      She hired a personal trainer and a plastic surgeon, started a diet, joined a gym, dyed her hair blond, and bought sexy lingerie. Finally, she quit working so she could offer her hubby sex three times a night. Yet he still cheated. I’m not saying you should run over and kill your cheater. That should never happen, but I am saying I understand her ability to snap after going to great lengths to fix the flaws a cheater tells you that you have, (I mean really, plastic surgery, the act of recreating your body in the image another person finds idea?) and still they cheat.

  • Wow, it never ceases to amaze me that these people just want to deflect the problem of cheating onto the chump. And it will never end. CL and CN have helped me to spot these types and I am staying clear. The shark mask would make it a lot easier.

    I wish a cheater could experience their SO cheating before they decided to cheat. Who would they blame then?

    • Mine is experiencing something similar right now. Not being cheated on, but being LIED to. It is making him absolutely insane with anger. He screamed at someone recently that he “DOESN’T TRUST” this person, because he believes that this person is manipulating him.

      What the problem is, is that someone is talking, telling the truth about what he did to his family. He doesn’t like it. He feels BETRAYED by these people talking truth about his shitty character. He is frothing at the mouth angry that anybody DARE lie to him!!

      Really, asshole?

      Yep. Cheating on them probably wouldn’t get the mileage that LYING TO THEM and DENYING THEIR REALITY (for what that could possibly be worth) could.

      I suggest tearing a page from the Cheater Handbook and doing a little bit of karmic payback. Not important lies. Nothing that could harm anyone. Just give them back a little of what they gave.

      I know mine is going apeshit. All over someone telling the TRUTH, but withholding information about who is saying what to whom.

  • My exH never said one word about being unhappy in our marriage. As I’m not a mind reader, I was clueless. Maybe I didn’t meet his needs because I was too busy taking care of everything (snow removal, lawn mowing) while he sat and watched tv? I found out about his affair the day he abandoned me…and utterly destroyed me.

    So maybe “gdmmt” you don’t believe that I’m a victim? I’ll tell you who definately was a victim…my 15 year old son who also got abandoned. My ex didn’t have to deal with all the anger, profound sadness and his confusion over how his dad basically disappeared on us. My cheater IS worse than the devil and IS fucking (now married to) the lowest scum on earth.

  • TP–to hear the XBF tell it, both his 2nd wife and the woman he dated before me cheated on HIM. So, we’d think he’d take that pain and never inflict it on anyone right? Logically, yes. IF the having been betrayed stories were true. They weren’t…..they were merely a ploy (tearfully told me to me the night I met him) to throw me off the track that in the future, he’d be cheating on me.

    • This is a common thing!! The same thing happened to my friend. I want to say it’s a red flag but then how do I (a chump) go on to tell my next partner what my ex did without it being a red flag..

      • Daphne–I was SOOO naive. Later in the evening, as we were driving back to my vehicle he mentioned his ‘crazy, jealous former girlfriend.’ He said that if we eventually became a couple and she learned of it, for me to be prepared for her to ‘insert herself’ into the equation. I took it to mean she would try to break us up.

        He was setting up the third side of the triangle the very first night we knew each other.

  • “If you do something shady, you can’t then cry victim when someone shines the light on you.” Forgot where I heard that. Hey gdmmt, if you don’t like your rep then stop cheating!

  • Perfect points CL, I believe the most important one for cheaters and chumps to remember is “no one owes you reconciliation.” To me, gdmmt’s rant is a demonstration that s/he falsely assumes s/he entitled to reconciliation.

    I can’t remember who wrote it in a CN comment, but I keep remembering that to me, my STBX cheating killed our marriage. The divorce proceedings is what I have to go through to get the death certificate.

  • $600k. Six Hundred THOUSAND dollars.

    That’s a SEVEN (7) year amount that is easily known my serial cheater spent on his decade long MOW. So, let me add at least another ANOTHER $120k to the amount spent just on her over a TEN year period of time. This, btw, does NOT include the 17 yrs of cheating with XGF , co workers, pro sex workers, profiles, etc.. Nor does this include cc charges and expense padding to entertain these people.

    You know who has been victimized even MORE? The kids I have with cheatepants.

    I ASKED cheaterpants if he was having an affair over two years ago. His reply, ” NO!!! But I will !!!!” The gdmmt type posters really have their heads in denial about being married to a cheater.

    I like, “Use Your Words. Not Your Genitals”. I own NONE of my cheater’s choices to implode my family. I believed and trusted him implicitly. He knew this. He used this against his own family. I ASKED the cheater if he was cheating. He LIED. And continued to lie to me after DDay when I knew his exciting secret life before outing him. I just could not believe the person I trusted the most was stabbing me in the back.

    So FUCK YOU, gdmmt types. I did not fuck the neighborhood because of my unhappiness in my marriage. I TALKED to the cheater repeatedly. Of course I had so many bad traits according to him that I needed to do MORE to please him. He was duping me the entire time in my “marriage”. What did he do with more attention lavished on him from his wife? Well…I was the proud recipient of his and MOW/co worker/ sex workers STD, and BONUS….. he didn’t give me the cold shoulder 24/7. Wow! He actually would treat me like a human being instead of ignoring me.

    • ANC, I am sending you my condolences to your family for the crimes committed against them and you. I know what it’s like to discover that my family’s money has been siphoned into prostitutes and affair partners. Sadly, the Court often doesn’t pursue justice for victims.

    • Jesus fucking Christ. What in the bloody hell did he spend $720K on!? That sort of money being spent is so fucking unfathomable, even if we won the lottery. What the fuck do they buy – gold plated toilet seats or something? Such a brainfuck.
      (This is coming from someone who’s frugal and doesn’t do that ‘designer label’ shit in any way, shape or form)

      • Trips. Spa resorts. masters golf outings, Broadway show weekends, more trips, jewelry, vuitton handbags, beer and wine tasting trips…who knows what else. All the while I was told to cut our spending! well, the kids wear hand me overs, I shop at Aldi, Jesus fucking Christ I wore my son’s size 14 winter coat! I shoveled the drive, did the yard work, cleaned the house and did minor house repairs. What else could I have cut back on?

  • Ok, gdmmt, riddle me this…

    My husband not only spent (at least) the last 5 years of our marriage being HEAVILY involved with prostitutes, but he was also VERY active on a message board where Johns reviewed the whores. On one forum, someone asked the Johns the question “Can ONE woman satisfy you?” Here is my beloved ex-husband’s reply. This was, of course, before I busted and then divorced him:

    “IMO, the simple answer to your question is “no”. I know some guys here say they’re looking for “it”. That one girl that makes you melt. Well, I have “it”. I’ve had “it” for many years now. We can’t keep our hands off each other, I think she’s the most beautiful girl on the face of the Earth. She kisses like she means it, she fucks like a porn star, she swears like a sailor and she drinks like she’s Irish. I love her desperately with every single electric impulse in my brain and every atom in my body. Sometimes when we’re out I look at her from across the room and everyone in the room disappears ’cause she’s the only one that matters. I am in awe of her wit and passion and her kindness. I just like to fuck other girls. I can’t help it. Now she likes to fuck other girls occasionally so it’s not like I don’t get any “strange”. I get her leftovers every once in a while so it ain’t about that. I don’t know what it is. It’s like when you’re a kid and you do something bad and your Mom says “why did you do that?” and you’re like “duh, I dunno”. One thing I can say is I am not interested in the least in having any sort of emotional “affair”. I honestly just wanna poke you, pay you and be gone. If we like each other, that’s great. We can maybe even see each other on a friendly basis outside “the business”. As far as I’m concerned this hobby is zero threat to any relationship I have on the outside. ”

    So, gdmmt, what was I supposed to do to be a better wife?

    (Sorry, fellow CL Nation friends if this post made you throw up in your mouth. He posted nearly 4,000 posts on this board so imagine how lucky I am to get the truth to all my questions).

          • Let Go, first he tried denying. That didn’t work. Then he tried minimizing. “I didn’t write all those posts, just some of them, cuz I was bored” Then he tried admitting only to what I had proof of, even though I kept telling him that I knew more than I was letting on, so he could come clean or he could keep lying and be divorced from me. He developed a giant chip on his shoulder, started telling me all my faults, and kept lying. I divorced him and even though we lived in a 50/50 state, I hired a good lawyer and left him with virtually nothing. Now he will no longer speak to me at all. I’m sure in his mind, I’m just the bitch who stole everything for no reason. Crazy. And yes, he gives Trump a good run for his money in the Narc department, for sure.

          • I’m not denying that GiveTimeTime is not all that and a side of awesomeness, because I’m sure she is. (look how freaking mighty she is!) But from I’ve seen, when the Narc is this heavy-handed with the compliments to their partners, they’re setting themselves up for some sort of humble brag.

            The Set-Up

            “I managed to hook the prettiest, smartest, coolest, most doable girl in the world…”

            And the Spike

            “But she’s still not enough for me! I’m that insatiable! I am all that is MAAAAAN!”

            (Also, Narcs don’t understand the concept of a humble-brag.)

            • PucksMuse – Oh, I’m sure you’re 100% correct with your “humble-brag” assessment.

              Here’s the reasons I KNOW you’re right. (and I’m sure there are more)

              1) If I’m so great, how come he never bothered to mention it to me? I’m the most beautiful girl on Earth? Wow, would have been nice if you shared that info me. I might have liked to hear it.

              2) I don’t know if drinking like I’m Irish is a complement. And I’m not sure that I do drink like I’m Irish. How much do Irish people even drink? (No offence meant to anyone Irish) And I fuck like a pornstar? Hot damn, I didn’t know that.

              3) Maybe he wasn’t even talking about me. Maybe the girl he was talking about who fucks like a rock star and is so witty and kind was just some other girlfriend he was fucking on the side…. or wished he was.

              4) He’s an asshole.

  • Comments from people like gddmmt still shows all of us that many people in the world is still stuck in the 1950’s uneducated way of thinking and have no empathy for people that have dealt with such deep harm with the cheaters and AP and their followers. We all know gddmmt’s statement’s are bullshit. This is another way of blame shifting and also lame excuses that all cheaters and PD think it’s all about them.

    What we had to deal with is abuse. Clear and simple. It has nothing to do with about “not meeting their needs”. I am not responsible for another person’s “happiness” and “needs” and their mood swings.

    I am done with hearing and reading the same bullshit over and over again that these sick cheaters and they were not happy. Blah, Blah, Blah…..Please cheaters cry me a river with your stupid excuses. A relationship is not meant to make you happy. It is nobody’s job to make you happy . To put an expectation on someone else that their commitment to you is a commitment to keep you in a constant state of happiness, is fucking lunacy. It’s insane! We’ve all drank the same Kool-Aid and we’re all like, yeah, it’s cool to let someone else dictate how happy or unhappy I am without having any responsibility to myself.

    YOU MAKE YOURSELF AS HAPPY OR AS UNHAPPY AS YOU WANT. Don’t put that kind of pressure on someone else. Don’t allow someone else to have dominion over how you feel on a day to day basis.

    Yes, relationships are wonderful and they add so much to our lives, but they are not here in existence to provide a happiness we can’t find in ourselves. Relationships don’t fill a void or affix an emotional band-aid on your pain. Relationships aren’t the missing piece to your fulfillment. A person is not your other or better half.

    You are a complete person without a relationship.

    That is the healthy mental way of thinking and living.

    A man or woman is not a BFF pendant, where they have the other half of your heart. Our happiness or our wholeness is not outside of ourselves. There is no finding happiness. This is not a scavenger hunt. You feel happy. You don’t find it or lose it or attain it or buy it. You feel it, just as much as you feel sadness or anger or frustration or attraction. It’s that simple.

    We must stop putting these expectations on romantic relationships. We’ve gone too far off center from the true nature of romantic relationships. And, because of this, because we don’t understand that a relationship is not meant to fulfill a gap or void or bring us happiness, we have yet to experience the gifts of what relationships actually offers.

    In a healthy relationship, you grow as a person, each one of you should. You’re attracted to someone based on how much they can allow you to grow, to understand parts of yourself you couldn’t understand without them, to experience what it’s like to be vulnerable. And through that vulnerability, you learn more about who you are; you shed layers of yourself that don’t serve you; you heal painful memories, and share and release trauma.

    Being in a relationship is not always not sunshine and rainbows and a constant euphoria. It’s not about breaking up because you’re no longer happy. If the relationship ends and both sides agree that it is over and each served their purpose to each other, in terms of growth. You part ways when you’re meant to part ways, when there’s nothing more you can learn from each other. That is what mature people do.

    There is no I mean NO excuse or reason for cheating!!!! Being in a relationship should not be about my or his needs all of the time. If you think that way then don’t waste your time being in a relationship and please don’t waste the other’s person’s valuable time also.

    We all know that cheaters will use ever excuse in the book to rationalist their behavior. This is what gddmmt is doing. Rationalising madness and still buying into the old fashion 1950’s thinking of cheating or some soap opera PD way of thinking. Gddmmt is another prime example of a person DOES NOT understand the risk and the pain that is caused by these cheaters and their followers.

    If gddmmt doesn’t like what they are stating here on this site when why read it? It is gddmmt’s “choice” to not read the comments and posting from CL and CN. Seems like gddmmt is judging us when what he/she wrote above.

    Cheating has nothing to do with “needs”. We all know that. Cheating is a character flaw, cheating is a selfish act, cheating is a choice!!!!! I take no blame at all with the lame excuse of a “problem in the relationship”. The PROBLEM is the CHEATER and their APs and their followers and their way of thinking well lack of thinking NOT ME and NOT the relationship. Very simple. Please educate yourself Gddmmt and have empathy because your comments really don’t have any empathy at all.

    I wish you the best gddmmt; however, I don’t buy into any of your comments at all. I call bullshit!!!!!

  • This is exactly why I don’t tell people I am divorced because he cheated or that he was a serial cheater. I still get the 3 looks of horror: 1) that I must have been a terrible person to drive him to do it, 2) I am frigid, and 3) that I am a pathetic victim.

    Listen gdmmt, I own my own shit. I am none of the above. However, you must understand that this is mind-fuckery close to, let’s say, Mount Everest or the Hoover Dam.

    I would have willingly paid my weight in gold to hear my EX to say: ‘we had a good run and, let’s face it we are both not happy, lets’ move on’.

    Instead, my EX said to me: ‘I need time to think. I am going to move out for a little bit to figure my sh*t out’. Fair enough. I gave him space.

    What the EX did AND – to give context – OPENLY told all of our friends: “I’ve moved into 25 year old OW’s apartment, then we are moving into the house we bought together’.

    He intentionally left me in limbo for over a year. During this time he willing went to MC to to work try to fix things where he lied. He even moved back because: ‘it was his home’ and ‘where he really belonged’. However, he never stopped screwing the OW.

    This is only a sampling of the mindfuckery.

    By DD2, I ended it. Yes, me. Because he would never do it. Also, I was the one to do all the legal paperwork to make it official – because, again, he would never do it.

    These folks don’t play fairly. They change the rules mid-game and you never get the memo.

    I come here to heal and maybe save someone else a tiny bit of heartache.

    • Try it as a guy. My (former) pastor asked what I did to force my ex-wife to have her affair.

      Seriously!

      He was one of those women can’t do anything wrong and if she’s sinning, it must be his failing. You may be shocked how many think like that in the church.

      There are stupid people everywhere.

      • WOW!!!! He must be a member of the powerful “Marriage Industrial Complex”.. I had a religiousy guy once say to me when I told him my story “God hates divorce”.. I said maybe.. “but he loves me more”.

        Ick.

        • At one point I asked my pastor how many times God mentions divorce in the bible.
          Then I asked him how many time he mentions adultery.
          He had very little to say after that.

        • It’s true, God hates divorce, the verb. It’s pretty clear in scripture that he hates what it does to people.

          But God loves the divorced. Besides, only half of those divorced actually chose divorce. I don’t know if I should be ashamed or proud, but I didn’t choose the divorce. My cheating ex-wife did. So those who are quick to paint all the divorced with the same brush are quick to get a dose of reality.

          Only half who are divorced chose it. Many were divorced by an unfaithful spouse. Many who chose it divorced an unfaithful spouse.

          Again, too many judgmental people who fail at critical reasoning.

          • Totally AGREE. I never wanted the divorce, but at some point, I had no choice. He kept disrespecting me. I did have some of those types say I should “stand” for the marriage and keep taking it.. no thanks. I think the choice was clear.. either save my self respect and move on be a doormat. The minute he cheated, HE is the one that killed the marriage.

            • Oh I stood for marriage all right. I divorced my lying cheating sociopath of an ex and eventually remarried a wonderful guy who I am absolutely devoted too…See, I am pleasing the almighty (no offense meant by the sarcasm!)

          • Uni you are exactly right. God hates the harm divorce causes to the people involved. You know the spouse left behind, children and other family members that didn’t want the divorce. The bible is also very clear that adultery is a reason to divorce. You know that anything in the bible can be made to support someone’s position when taken out of context. The pastor’s that I spoke to where quick to point out that it was my choice whether or not to divorce my cheating spouse. They actually said I should but not in a direct way. Which I appreciate, it needed to be my choice. And they have been very supportive since I filed for divorce. I also didn’t choose this. She choose to leave and not work on the marriage. She is the cause of the divorce. End of case.

          • I didn’t want it. I had absolutely no choice. It almost destroyed me. I am doing better but still have a sense of doom about my future. Whenever I visit my Dad at the rehab, which is also a nursing home, I think, “this is my future now”.

  • I would LOVE to know who this asshole is in real life. What a load of shit that was….assuming a whole lot. This is not a site for your run of the mill “relationship/marriage gone wrong “. We aren’t talking about partners who have TRIED all the right things and had no other options and regret hurting their SO and children. We bash entitled, cheating assholes who DELIBERATELY lie and fuck their families and children over in the most brutal ways possible with ZERO remorse or integrity instead of telling the truth and acting like a responsible human being.

    I know in my case I very clearly said….OUT loud….relationships end, shit happens and there is a right way to do this, I even BEGGED him to….and what did he do?? Stayed….continued his affair…..treated me like shit….continued lying…. stopped paying the bills…..kept going on trips to meet up with married cheater Owhore all the while projecting, gaslighting and LYING his ass off. And as I’ve said before…even my breast cancer diagnosis didn’t slow him down, he walked out six days later.

    Me?? The injured party ….nope not at all!! My son…the undeserving victim?? I guess not…..Cheater the poor sad sausage….of COURSE he was the one who had suffered…he just had to do it all that way because he just didn’t know what else to do. It’s a miracle that he had enough wits about him during this unraveling to muster the smarts to sneak and buy a new phone plan and arrange all those trips. And for what!?? For the opportunity to fuck a stranger and find twu wuv.

    These assholes don’t care who they destroy, including their own children.

  • The last lines are truth.

    Yes, my relationship had small problems, as all relationships do.

    But incessant cheating, and then lying about it, doesn’t solve problems. It creates new, worse problems.

    Don’t you DARE (wink!) accuse me of not addressing issues in the relationship while actively cheating on me.

    First, the cheating must stop, permanently. Then, and only then, will the original, valid “unmet needs” problems be addressed.

    I’m not the perfect mate. No one is. So, let’s chat about that…just as soon as you permanently excommunicate your AP.

    Can’t do it that? Or are your confused? Need time?

    Well then, don’t call me. I’ll call you.

    • Someone on the board put it like this.. Your marriage is like a car.. it maybe needed a tune up or an oil change, but instead of doing that routine maintenance to it, the cheater ran the car into a tree. The car still needs an oil change and tune up, but now it’s busted to pieces, so the oil change and tune up are NOT the biggest problems for the car. Doing an oil change now won’t fix it.

      You don’t solve problems by creating new ones. Really this is just adult problem solving 101. I think these folks just lack adult coping and problem solving skills. They lack maturity. And they are entitled. It comes down to that toxic brew.

    • Similar to newchumpatl’s thoughts, I’ve viewed it as going nuclear in a low-intensity conflict. If the marriage is as bad as the cheater says, how does her going nuclear by having an affair make things better? Now the problem is her nuclear aggression, her cheating. Until that’s address, all the other issues are miniscule.

  • There are a lot of cheaters out there. Finding good natured people with their heads on straight, people that understand responsibility, people who have empathy and good character, people that understand that they are not entitled, people who know how to communicate in a healthy way.. are hard to find. No one wants to be cheated on. Not even cheaters. They found themselves a good person and took advantage of that and lost them. In the end CHEATERS CHEAT THEMSELVES.

  • Second paragraph, first sentence: ” Should they have broken up with you before cheating? Of course”. If that had happened, it wouldn’t be CHEATING. There would be no “Chump Lady” and you, gdmmt, wouldn’t try to defend the indefensible. See the correlation??? Everything you wrote after that is a sad attempt at justifiying shitty, low-rent, selfish behavior. Nice try, though. Got a good laugh from it.

  • Gdmmt said: “Many times that person literally doesn’t know what else to do” other than cheat.

    First, that is false. That is never the case. Everyone knows about this thing called divorce.

    Second, you clearly don’t understand what “literally” means.

    Third, if when confronted with difficulties in your marriage, you truly can think of no option other than cheating than you have no business getting married.You are a blind person asking to be trusted to fly an airplane. Just . . . stop it.

  • Here’s the thing about working on OUR relationship issues, it’s not JUST that SHE cheated…

    It’s her lying DURING the affair: It’s about her deliberate obfuscation whenever we started to have a serious conversation about our poor communication. It was her deflections and blameshifting responsibility for every issue we had back onto me to resolve (she would be much happier if *I* took Prozac). It was her telling me she was satisfied with our standard/tame sex while she composed wild BDSM fantasies she wanted to perform with her boyfriend.

    It was her making the patently unfair comparisons between me (conditioned asshole chump working to provide the mortgage, car payment, insurance, retirement, cell phones, internet, electricity) and her piece-of-shit boyfriend (who told her how nice she – and her pussy – looked). It was her using (stealing really) money meant for our family so she could spend time with him.

    It was her cognitive dissonance of constantly belittling me for being an inconsiderate jerk (evidently, there is a right way and a wrong way to mow the lawn) while she was texting her boyfriend back about how considerate he is because he asked her permission to post a picture of himself to their facebook fuckbuddy group page (he didn’t want to ruin their twoo-luv). Hey, fun fact… She was cheating with him as he was cheating on his other facebook fuck-buddy while he was cheating on his wife.

    My cheating wife kept using the word “considerate” to describe him. I do not think it means what she thinks it means.

    It was her acting like a petulant little toddler whenever the kiddo and I “demanded” time and attention she could have been spending with her boyfriend. It was her spending time with her boyfriend anyway WHILE she was spending time with me and our kiddo.

    It’s her lying AFTER the affair; the trickle-truth for every new revelation. It’s about her pleading to stay with me, how much she loves me, needs me, wants me; and how she’ll do “anything and everything” to win me back. However, when I do demand something of her, she tries to negotiate her way out (instead of going to therapy so she can dig through HER obvious issues, she wants US find a marriage counselor so WE can get to the bottom of why *I* was a miserable jerk before HER affair).

    So yeah, you bet your sweet bippy that there is no working OUR relationship issues after HER affair.

    • Wow! I heard the same shit from my stay at home wife. I could have written this. Hope you realize that you are a good person and she’s just a demented slunt. We both deserve so much better than that. Yeah, my marriage is done too.

    • I am with you… the lying to me was almost worse than the adultery. I wish he had just said “Hey, I fell in love with someone else”.. or if that wasn’t it… “Hey, I just want to fuck other people”. Okay. That would suck, but it would have been honest. Instead, he lied to me.. he’s STILL lying to me.. why? Why does he lie now when it doesn’t matter? It’s just second nature to him.

      That was the scariest thing for me, to realize I was married to someone who could lie that easily!

      My STBX’s Whore was also a piece of shit. Here I was, good looking woman, loyal wife for almost two decades, mother of his kids, working, taking care of everyone, doing the hard chump work.. and he’s out making time with Ms. White Trash. While he never admitted to the relationship, in a moment of clarity he did say that their “friendship” was “easy” while life with me was “hard”. Well yeah, the bitch has no kids she’s not wiping noses and asses and dealing with toddler meltdowns. She’s not dealing with a snarky pre teen and begging him nightly to do his algebra homework. Sheesh, of course it’s EASIER. It’s not REAL!!!!

  • It’s been 1 year, 8 months since D Day and 9 months since the divorce was final. He still can’t get his shit together to do what is in the decree. I guess to some, a legal binging agreement signed by a judge and all parties doesn’t mean much. So needless to say, he’s still creating messes and still expecting me to clean them up. And how dare I mention anything to him about how – if you would have done this right in the beginning, then we wouldn’t have to do this. I get to hear about how it’s a waste of his time, blah blah blah. I’m always amazed of the justifications in his mind that he expects me to believe. I told him this week that he needs to understand that he is NOTHING to me now. My kids’ father and that’s it. My favorite line, even said by him this week, “I cheated. I wanted to make it work, but you couldn’t get past it. I was unhappy and you were too. It’s over, it’s done, move on.” Yeah, I have moved on…more ways than 1…so do what the court order says to do and we won’t have any issues. Oh, I guess that’s my fault too 🙂

  • “So they make a huge mistake. And many regret it and wish they could take it back, or that it never happened.”

    So what? Prisons are full of people who made “huge mistakes” that they regret. Yet that regret doesn’t get them off the hook and they still have to serve their sentence.

    Even if a cheater is “full of regret,” (I personally think that’s a tiny percentage of them) they still have to face and own the consequences of their “mistake.”

    • Let’s all sing the Cheater Song Chorus in which we affirm Chumps are part of the problem:

      If you could be a different girl/guy every night
      That would work just fine for me
      And if all your moods matched perfectly with mine
      That would be alright you see?

      • And cheaters can sing:

        “I’m a little NP,
        Short and stout,
        I chew you up and
        I fart you out.

        I don’t really care
        What I’ve done to you,
        So STFU
        With your boo-hoo-hoo.”

    • They (cheaters and criminals) regret what they did, they regret getting caught or having consequences. Big difference (and critical to determining whether they have a conscience).

  • Here’s the deal, I think everyone here was not only cheated on, but we were beaten down by years of gaslighting, blame-shifting and flat out lies. We lived tiptoeing along a fault line that frequently shifted because – unbeknownst to us – there was someone a few steps ahead of us jumping up and down on it. Then we were told it was our fault there was an earthquake.

    To this day, ex likes to throw my “suicide attempt” out there as evidence of my instability (usually as an indictment of my parenting…yeah, you connect the two because I sure can’t). I never attempted suicide, although I did seek help for my depression long before I met him. That’s the type of character most of us are dealing with. Mine didn’t just want to get strange anywhere he could find it, he was a passive-aggressive sociopath who wanted to stick it to me (figuratively of course, as he had cut off sex with me three years into the marriage) any way he could. Still does. Three years out from d-day and two years out from divorce, I’m still trying to de-program. You’re damn right I was a victim, but I’m climbing out one day at a time.

  • 1. Chump Lady does not promote revenge or vilifying cheaters. Some of them get made fun of but they always provide the material. Chump Lady and Chump Nation just choose not to be wasteful.

    2. The only thing Chump Lady promotes is leaving a cheater and gaining a life. If you have the reading comprehension of an 8 year old you should be able to understand that.

    3. Chump Lady doesn’t give a pass to any cheater. She and much of the nation believe that once a marriage has been decimated by infidelity, there isn’t much of a marriage left. She acknowledges that chumps are not perfect ( clearly out taste in partners leaves much to be desired) and she also acknowledges that chumps may suck. The only point she makes is that in those cases where you have a sucky marriage you should leave. Honestly.

    Too much trouble? Then try actually using your words to tell your spouse that you’re unhappy. Doesn’t work? Get a divorce. It’s really not that complicated.

  • gdmmt: my husband told me nonstop about the problems in our marriage, the deficiencies with our sexlife, and my failings as a person. I listened, and then bent myself into a pretzel (sometimes literally that shape) trying to address those complaints and fix myself. I loved him and our marriage and worked for it. I begged for understanding and forgiveness from him, and he withheld that. He manipulated and bullied me emotionally and sexually for YEARS.

    I encouraged him to pursue nonsexual, nonromantic interests outside the marriage, with ground rules. Then he broke the ground rules. And lied. And stole.

    I understand perfectly that there were problems in the marriage, and I own half of them. But I was the only person in the marriage honestly working on those problems.

    I’ve also come to understand (imperfectly, because I’ll have no further contact with him) that the REASON he did these things is because he resented me and wanted to punish me. He didn’t want to divorce me, or fix the problems. He wanted to punish me. So, yeah, he’s pretty much the devil in my eyes. And can go fuck himself.

    And so can you, since you bothered to show up here and yell at us. Like all the entitled assholes we are learning to recognize at a safe distance. We’d rather you just left us alone.

    • “and I own half of them.” I strongly suspect that half the marital problems before the cheating were due to you. There is NO winning with these guys/gals, not a smidgeon of a chance at even a contented marriage. You, and I, and most of us, were devalued from shortly thereafter the wedding ceremony. Our spouses did everything they could to suck the life out of us, then criticized us for not being happy and exciting and affectionate. 50% of the fault? No, I think not.

      • Sorry–were NOT due to you

        (typing TOO fast & not proofreading because I am doing the happy dance that my X just discovered his email is in the AM hack dump, and he is freaking. K.A.R.M.A. And also claiming that someone created the account in his name (but I have the evidence that it was created INSIDE OUR HOUSE. Jackass.)

      • Tempest you are so right… looking back on it the devaluation started immediately when we moved in together after getting engaged and finding out I was pregnant. Once he had me he didn’t have to TRY anymor . My mother says “he has never been good to you or your son (our son).”

        They criticize you and tear you down little by little, nothing is ever good enough or right enough, they are never and will never be truly satisfied.

  • This exact bullshit is why I like sharing my story.

    My ex cheated on every partner his entire life. He cheated throughout our courtship, a few days before the wedding, the wedding day, and regularly thereafter.

    How is that me not meeting his needs? We had sex twice a day most days. We were still, by all accounts, in the honeymoon phase.

    I believe this demonstrates that cheaters don’t care about getting their needs met… it’s just that they want to cheat. Period.

  • I guess my situation just doesn’t fit the Gdmmtt’s theory. My now XH wasn’t unhappy, how do I know? He told me even after BD that I was a his best friend, great wife and we have a wonderful relationship. Well, I guess that all his needs were being met? Anyway, he never blamed me, couldn’t find faults with me, and even said it wasn’t a marriage problem.

    Truth is that cheaters are cowards and they are selfish. My XH didn’t want to upset me, didn’t want his cozy life disrupted, didn’t want to be the bad guy, couldn’t go out on his own, wasn’t willing to lose his ideal lifestyle. Supposedly he fount the one, his soulmate, and in an surreal experience, that I could never understand of course, he fell in love with her picture and knew he had to marry her.

    So yes overnight he was willing to throw away all of it for someone he hadn’t even met yet. He was now the martyr of love, for God must have wanted him to lie, cheat, deceive, and mislead his best friend, great wife for the chance at true love. He didn’t even need to ask me forgiveness because he was already forgiven by God, as it was meant to be, so how could anyone blame him he can’t help he fell in love.

    BULLSHIT! Found out after BD and much research that my XH had numerous EA’s tried to get them to fall for his Romeo and Juliet love trysts.

    • Ugh. Some similarities, minus the God stuff. Had some physical intimacy problems that I believe were totally addressable, but he literally can’t deal with it. Can’t talk about it, can’t face it. But according to him “everything else was perfect.” He “fell in love” with someone in a matter of days, and by the time he told me he was so checked out that he was delusional: he actually asked if I wanted him to explain it to MY PARENTS, and tried to tell me little anecdotes about how “it just happened.” He definitely, definitely has some romantic fairy tale complex, and one of those narrative obsessions about being with the wrong one and finding the right one. Ew ew ew.

    • You got that too. I heard, God wants me to be happy. Really, show me the verse where it says you are entitled to happiness at the expense of others. Crickets….

  • Pardon me, gdmmt, but “they didn’t know what else to do”? Really? There is always something that could be done, and the ultimate decision could be to leave. But cheaters are so scared to lose their stable life. Kids, money, etc. We’re all scared of losing that, but you know, we lose them anyway. And we’re trying to make the best of it. We’ve had our trust taken for granted, hearts stomped into the ground, and had been taken for fools. And yet we’re left to pick up the pieces. What have you got to complain about?
    This site is to help us move on from cheaters who were unremorseful, merciless, and additionally tried to screw us over to justify their hate. And you wonder why we think some cheaters are scum of the earth?
    So good for you being one of the ones with an actual conscience and soul. I’m sure someone’s very proud.

  • My ex was having an affair with a married coworker. He was pretending to be friends with her husband, even accepting and wearing used clothing from him. He ingratiated himself with her kids, and her parents. I found in his own writing how he was “planting seeds” to break up his coworker’s marriage and have her to himself. He wrote about how he and OW talked about being unhappy in their marriages, but he never said a word to me. How is this behavior my fault? What kind of person does this kind of stuff? I take absolutely no ownership in his decision to manipulate people this way. Normal people don’t plot to break up other people’s families, or pretend to be friends with the husband of the woman they’re having an affair with. They don’t have the OW’s kids calling them “Uncle,” or act like another son to the OW’s parents. He is using these people to get what he wants. He doesn’t care what breaking up her family would do to her children, or her husband, or her parents. He just wants what he wants. This behavior is not a result of our relationship issues, or my shortcomings, it’s a result of his narcissism.

    • Lyn, you and I sound like we were married to similar blokes. I won’t use the word ‘men’ because men don’t do to us what has happened. Our ex husbands were and still are predators and manipulators and that will never change. My ex is an atheist but now he is following his 23 year old SE Asia girl into being a Buddhist. He sways which ever way the wind is blowing to achieve what he wants. He used to refer to all Asians as ‘porch monekys’ and now he is screwing one. They do whatever it takes and stuff everyone in their way. They don’t care, they simply don’t care. It is all about their wants and needs.

      • Maree, my XH who was Christian also started delving into Buddhism and became a quote fanatic thinking he was on a higher spiritual plane than I, which was his explanation as to why I just didn’t get it. Ironically, his Thai girl decided that she was going to become a Christian at the same time. Once during an argument I told him that neither one of them were following the principles of Jesus or Buddha. Now he is has gone back to an even more born again religious attitude, using the Bible for his justifications, as Chump Lady says he is a Jesus Cheater. Actually the first time I saw the term Jesus Cheater I thought how appropriate because they not only cheat on us but they have cheated on Jesus too. The truth is that he has never apologized, never repented and I’m nowhere near forgiveness. These are the ones you have to watch out for, the openly Christian hypocrite who hides behind their religion. Divorce Minister has been a tremendous help for my understanding and acceptance that they will have to face God one day, even if they are afraid to face us or themselves now.

      • Our children will not speak to my ex (nor does he seem to care), but ex ferries around AP’s children and nieces and nephews like he’s dad of the year. Our youngest son, now just turning 16, has not seen his father since D-Day 3 1/2 years ago! Crazy sociopaths, all of them.

  • This gdmmt sounds very much like my ex-cheater and his AP. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they wrote that together. I was told that it takes two people in a marriage and I was partly to blame for our relationship problems! 1. I did not know we had relationship problems outside of the regular everyday raising of kids, paying the bills, dividing up chores….etc. 2. Two people…..NOT THREE!! Therein lies the problem!

    • I agree Kimmy. That bullshit line about “owning your flaws in the marriage” no longer applies once the cheater has lobbed a hand grenade into it.

    • Yeah, apparently three comments over five years about me not doing enough around the house was supposed to be a warning that she was likely to run. I made a real effort every time my health allowed but would fall off when my issues returned. I thought the cycle was just a typical, cliched part of all relationships. Oops.

  • Is it just me or is anyone else throwing up in their mouths just a little? I swear these people are psychos. There’s nothing else to do but cheat? Seriously? Wow…. I am so ill informed about my choices. Thank goodness I have been advised to just cheat any time a relationship sucks. ….

    • Bev you sound like a very wise person. You remind me of a good friend. Someone that stood beside me through my darkest days. She did tell me the hoops I was constantly jumping through were a distraction but had my back anyway. For that I will always be grateful! It’s nice to have one true friend!

      • David, you can never have too many friends, especially when they have your back. I also have a great friend that made me get out of bed every morning when I truly thought that I was going to die. Friends like that are pure gold 🙂

    • True. As I replied to gdmmt’s post from yesterday, unless you have stem cell capability to graft extra penises and vaginas onto yourself, cheaters will go elsewhere.

  • If you have integrity, being faithful is easy. Gdmmt is confusing love and integrity. Love for someone is not a measure of the content of your character.

    • Dat, folks with NPD really only feel love for themselves. Their displays of “love” are made for the sole purpose of getting what they want from others. I don’t think integrity is part of their makeup at all.

  • When your cheater uses the excuse that they didn’t know what to do? That your not meeting their needs? That they were unhappy but hoped things would get better, that you would change. This is mindfuckery 101. It means that somewhere in their dysfunction they have equated their cheating with what they view as faults in you. We have all heard the excuses of what we could have done better to make them happy, because if they are happy then they won’t consider cheating. Bullshit. I did everything I could to make my cheater happy, ran our house, cared for the kids, held down the fort with three kids including a newborn so he could travel for work. Kept up appearances while I felt empty inside all so I never caused a situation that may reflect poorly on him. But he still cheated. Because the reality of the situation was that I could never really make him happy because I didn’t have a penis. He wasn’t happy and I knew it, but the passive aggressive drive in him was never going to let me behind the mask, so he deflected it all back on to me, constantly causing me to question my own reality. By deflecting, gaslighting, deception and entitlement my cheater left me questioning my own state of mind, which lead to depression and anxiety which gave my cheater more leverage to point at me and deflect my concerns about what he was doing. It was a cycle that repeated often and when I tried to break the cycle he would up his game. There were times when he would act the untrusted dejected timid forest creature that would leave me feeling guilty and reeling for days, but as the fog cleared and I would get my balance back I would get angry and sit on it till I got to the point I would explode ( I admit this is not healthy) usually over something little as I just couldn’t take any more. The cheater would then use this emotional state I was in to start the cycle over again.

    We are all responsible for our actions and decisions this includes cheaters. Don’t accept the excuses.

  • Gdmmt,

    There is a small group of ex-cheaters who are willing to do the hard work of introspection in order to figure out WHY they cheated so they don’t cheat again. They recognize the pain and devastation in their spouse’s eyes that THEY caused, and they are willing to humble themselves and look inside themselves for answers. They also recognize that if the shoe was on the other foot, they too, would be devastated if their partner had cheated on THEM.

    ALL of the ex-cheaters have come to the same conclusions: They cheated because they believed that THEIR ‘happiness’ was paramount…that they were ENTITLED to cheat…that they were COWARDS.

    Most admit that their excuses were just that; excuses. They created their own version of the truth in order to justify their decision to cheat (and yes, they admit that it was a *decision* and not something that “just happened”)

    They admit that they didn’t cheat because of anything their *partner* did/didn’t do. They admit that they KNEW they had other options besides cheating. Yet through cheating, they could have the best of both worlds.

    They admit that cheating was a SELFISH act designed by them to fill their own insatiable, immature EGO. They were a bottomless pit of ‘want’.

    They also understand that they may have to spend the REST OF THEIR LIVES fighting their ‘demons’ and holding themselves accountable.

    Now, all of this and then some has come STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTHS OF EX-CHEATERS.

    So Gdmmt, please don’t try to sell us your b.s. Ex-cheaters everywhere have your number.

    And so do WE here at CN.

    Forge on, chumps!

    • Gypsy57 … I can vouch for this … this is almost word-for-word my “cheater” who seems to be within this small group. I consider myself lucky. Now the trick is to see if he is reading from the “Cheaters Handbook of What to Say to Get More Kibbles”, if he is merely alleviating his guilt and restoring his public image by pretending to reconcile while She Who Must Be Laid waits in the wings for him, or if he is truly sincere in his desire to look deeper into himself. If he says he doesn’t want to lie to me anymore, is he lying? I’m in the fortunate position (and boy, after reading these sad tales, I really feel fortunate) to be able to put him on the back burner while he sorts out his life, and get on with my life (that’s the plan, anyway). He can find his own way … I’ve held his hand long enough.

      In reply to Gdmmt’s post, it’s great you’re finding one-third of this site useful … perhaps you’re reading posts like mine, or those that had significant others that didn’t cheat AND steal their family’s money, didn’t empty the house out, didn’t give their spouse an STD, didn’t do the nasty shit while the one they had promised to care for was going through cancer treatments, or grieving the loss of a family member, or even just making dinner every night for them. Maybe you’re just reading the more pleasant accounts and not the scary ones.

      If you had the desire and openmindedness to read further, and more thoroughly the other two-thirds of the posts, you’d see that even in the worst-case scenarios our first choice wasn’t to label our cheaters as “careless, flippant assholes”. You would see that we don’t paint cheaters with the same brush, even on this site. Cheaters run the gamut from the few truly remorseful ones all the way to the true sociopathic, narcissistic POS. This site is for chumps, as CL said. This site is for people who have put in the legwork and through their compassion, and despite it, have found that yes, their “partner” has proven to be an A-hole. However, there are also people like me who haven’t quite figured it out yet, and they’re on this site to protect themselves from Naugahyde remorse, reading stories from those who have experienced the worst. All of us, including the two-thirds of the chumps on this site you don’t agree with, aren’t making this shit up.

      So Gdmmt, could I ask YOU please not to paint all chumps with the same brush? Or even two-thirds of us? Thank you. Have a lovely day, and stop being so angry.

      • Champ

        I for one can absolutely say I DO paint all cheaters with the same brush. Oops! I fucked up, or rather fucked someone else while I was married. It required lying, spending time and money, and EXPOSING my spouse to STD’S. And i got caught, and lied some more….

        I could go on CHAMP. There’s no minimizing the fucking strange and exposing a partner to an STD. There’s no cheater discount for getting caught after leading a double life vs screwing a slut now and then. It’s about a lack of character. It defines all cheaters.

        Both a serial cheating narcissist and a cheater – cheat.

        And please — the truly remorseful cheaters? Are those the timid forest creatures I hear about?? That’s just bulkshit.

        • To clarify, I’m a devastated chump who is trying to figure out what’s Naugahyde and what’s not and I’m on this site to learn from others, and through my comments above, I defended all chumps and asked Gdmmt that if he/she thinks we paint all cheaters with the same brush, why is “he” painting all chumps with the same brush. “He” does not present a logical argument, as the UBT shows. That was my point.

          As for remorseful cheaters, I agreed with Gypsy57 because I do know of one cheater who has done the work, is and has been for a very long time truly remorseful, and would never do it again. In her case, she was the daughter of an alcoholic mother and a father who died too young, being brought up in a household that didn’t discuss problems of any sort. This cheating girl felt that her boyfriend didn’t love her but she didn’t have the tools in her arsenal to discuss it, cheated on him with an alcoholic man who showed interest, let him abuse her and use her for 10 years, broke free, then found whom she thought was the love of her life only to be cheated on 10 years later by him, and now she’s working through her own devastation and 40 years lost to relationships that went nowhere. She is the exception to the rule, I realize, but she is a living, breathing truly remorseful cheater. Sadly, she is just one person in a crapload of slimeballs.

          My knowing this person contributes to my confusion, because I want to hope that my ex is as remorseful as this person was and still is. I am still trying to figure it out but I am through with the pick-me dance. I posted my rant against Gdmmt in support of us chumps. I guess posting on this site wasn’t as therapeutic as I thought it would be, though, because I’m too sensitive still to any comments that don’t seem like support for me as I work through my issues.

          • And no, I’m not supporting reconciliation on this site … I’ve learned tons of stuff to prevent me from reconciling with a liar, if that is what he is. It’s been really helpful.

            • Champ, like your name, want to show my support for you and others that may believe they have a real chance at true reconciliation. The good thing is that you are aware how rare it is for the cheater to do the work that is needed to repair themselves and the marriage. Just remember, no matter how hard he tries, if it isn’t enough or you have the slightest doubt, it’s your right to end it all. I do know one of my best friends ever whose husband has “recovered” if you will, he cheated once, came back and truly owned and took responsibility for his affair. They have now been married about 20 yrs since the affair and although it never goes away completely and changed their relationship permanently, they are both happy and content with their “new” marriage. Gddmmtt is the one who doesn’t get it, I know I tried everything possible to save my marriage, but it does take two not just one.

              • Spiritwoman, thank you. I like your friend’s success story. I wish there were more of them. I know to not listen to what he says without questioning his motivation, so I will be careful. I’ve also gone no contact (although we are in the same cultural group which meets weekly) which will give me a better idea of where he’s at if and when he does contact me.

                Champ is the present tense of Chump (I hope).

            • Champ, my father cheated on my mother early in their relationship. He was sorry, and as far as I know it never happened again. It was terribly destructive to my mother who had already suffered abandonment issues from childhood. However, they’ve been married more than 60 years and my father is caring for my mother in her old age. It can happen that people stay together.

            • Glad to hear your voice Champ, Jedi hugs! I’ve reached the point where I really think the only way to be sure is to divorce and if your cheater is now honest and regained their integrity he/she will do this amicably with the understanding they can earn a place at your side afterward. CL says get a postnup and I suppose that may work but I’m not entirely certain it’s enforceable

              • I’ve heard of cohabitation agreements … same thing, I think. Thanks for reminding me of that. Been reading a bit more tonight about P-A, NPD, but I don’t see enough traits to diagnose. I think what I was dealing with all along was Peter Pan Syndrome with me growing into the role of co-dependent Wendy. OW is Tinkerbell, single-minded, vindictive at times, obsessed in her so-called “caring” for Peter … now if she will just drink the poison!!!!

            • Hi Champ; I understood your post and believe you are wise to make the decisions you need to as you go forward, never again having the mentality that just trusts without question. I think the thing pointed out here is that it is often much easier on the Chump to move forward without the soul crushing baggage cheating leaves in it’s wake, and that often people can spend more years of their life before they find out the relationship/trust cannot be restored after all.
              However, I for one do believe each of us has their own path & different people they are dealing with, and each has the right to come here just to have their eyes opened even if they decide to give it another go. Don’t really care to attract a bunch of criticism with this post, just a support comment for people who are on a phase of their journey that does not include leaving the cheater right now or maybe never.
              I believe this site would help anyone going through any phase of being a Chump.
              Good luck and best wishes going forward!

            • Champ

              It never stops. Betrayal should be a deal breaker. We seperated and each time I was the one doing all the work. Become a detective and you will see they don’t change. We trust and love too much. Sorry your going through this. I’m against Reconcilliation.

              • I only meant that I appreciated her comment and that I hope that the situation she’s dealing with has a positive outcome for her. I defer to those of you with more years involved and worse exes than me on the subject of reconciliation. From your stories it is obviously rare for their to be true contrition, and given the odds no particular person should bet on being the unicorn.

                I do think people can change. That doesn’t mean that she has to stick around to find out. Someone else can be free to take on the risk if she decides she wants out. I only wish for the conclusion to be as much in her favor as possible, whatever that looks like.

              • I did the detective thing last year … so that’s, for sure, no way to live. If there is a chance at recovery, I’ll put my heart into it, but I’m not going to monitor him. I’m going to take the opportunity to be the way I’d want to be with him without falling into the anxious co-dependent role I was in before (even if he tries to suck me in). It might turn out he’s lying to me and only pretending to reconcile in order to say he gave it the old college try and now is guilt-free, in which case it will give me the closure I need … I’ll have more proof that he’s a manipulative lying SOB. It won’t be a surprise, like DDay was. I won’t consider it a waste of time … what we’ve retained is our sense of humour, so at least there will be some laughs. I plan to get the last one!!!

          • Champ – Stay mindful. I don’t know what your whole situation is, but it is so incredibly rare that you have an actual unicorn on your hands. You’ve read enough all over the place, I don’t have to tell you that.

            It always bums me out when I hear people having hope after they just got pushed down a flight of stairs. And I know of not one person IRL that didn’t end up regretting trying to work through infidelity.

            Good Luck

            • I really appreciate everyone’s advice … see my above post about my ex as Peter Pan. My hope is more that I hope I end up a Champ one way or the other.

              I don’t believe in reconciliation either. The word ‘reconciliation’ implies a return to the harmony you had before. What harmony???? The A-hole cheated. Why the hell would anyone want a do-over on that? In almost all cases, the cheater doesn’t deserve a second chance, IMO.

              Right now, though, what I want is a NEW relationship, and right now it’s with the same guy. Maybe it’s just syntax to others, but there’s something deep inside me (and possibly him … there are hints as he works through this himself) that I have to deal with before I stop thinking this way. I would like to do this next one without the withholding, immaturity and resentment we both felt all these years. Wendy grew up, Peter Pan didn’t, which is where we stand right now. I have the choice to walk away now, but I choose not to (although I am NOT standing for him or enabling him … I did for the first 6 months … and he is not hurting me in any other way than to be infatuated with Poopsie … he wouldn’t be the first guy), so if I ever find myself regretting it, then it’s my own damn fault. Everything else is his fault. 🙂

              I’ve stopped doing the pick-me dance (except sometimes late at night alone in my kitchen when I start thought-looping about happily ever after … egad!), I’ve kicked him out, and after mega discussions about us, I am now doing the No Contact thing. I don’t want to date anyone (this introvert can dine alone just fine, thank you), we don’t have kids, and I don’t need to move. He can call me if he wants to try again, which he has mentioned (he must sound truly remorseful … that 0.00001 percent), and he can call if he’s in dire straits (medical problems … he lives alone), and other than that, I’m not talking to him. Now I’ve got to set a personal deadline on this Back-Burner Limbo.

              All it might amount to is that I’m weaning myself slowly off Chumpdom rather than going cold turkey. Or I’m modelling good behaviour, and he doesn’t take the bait.

              Or he may be an A-hole and is taking anything he’s learning from this experience and applying it his next relationship with Poopsie. Or he could be a covert borderline narc, and a damn fine actor, which is another reason for my controlled kibbles … I’m getting my ducks in a row.

              If I get a diagnosis for him, I’ll let you know, but I’d rather he prove me wrong.

              Thanks again for every bit of advice.

  • GDMMT

    You remind me of the X. That baby man really didn’t know what to do! I swear he thought getting drunk and fucking around with my friends sister at a party we had after I went to bed would solve the problem. The pig he got crabs from was a BIG mistake! The MOW at his fifth job in two years he screwed when I was pregnant didn’t help either. But X was so resourceful he kept trying!! Screwing K in our own bed didn’t quite work. So sorry for his plight, it must have been fucking hell. No doubt smoking weed and drinking must have been a cry for help. Poor baby, fucking the woman downstairs and upstairs and STILL such despair. What next? DATING. Oh, that’s it date as many as you can at once!! That’s a thrill!

    X was a one man band. He could play any instrument he found. Pity, if only I heard his cries he wouldn’t have ended up fucking a pig. Now THAT takes real effort pretending to be in love with a BJ addict. Shit he wouldn’t have lost the respect of his children. He wouldn’t have to finally face himself wondering what bridge he should jump off. Hate? No, relief. I finally gave him what he wanted. And when he smiled and said with that cheaters smirk, ” I like being single”, I filed.

    Why the outlandish rage? Take your balls out of your mouth and take deep breaths. Then repeat to yourself, “I’m single”. That should help. If not, do the one man band thing, find a basement, porn, and use your hand. That always worked for the X during dry spells.

    • donna, I have to praise you surviving all that you have been put through and to chumps everywhere. How we keep sane in the sh*t storm we travel through makes me realise just how strong all of us really are, even if it still hurts like hell.

      • Maree

        Thank you! We are all strong and intelligent. For years I justified staying with him because I didn’t want my children being raised by anyone else. And he convinced me it was my fault.

        I never knew he was a sociopath. Maree, through all the pain and loss we get to find ourselves again. Every day I walk for miles and find places to lay down under a tree and just feel peaceful. At night I sit outside and look at the stars.

        I’m letting go of the past. Now when I see happy people or couples holding hands I know there’s hope and I finally have that in my life. There are other kind people out there just like us. At first we say we gain a life, then we believe it, and finally we get to live it thanks to loving chumps like you Maree. That’s my hope, knowing I’m living it.

  • *Sigh*…These are conversations I have with my toddler. Are gddmt and other cheaters really so dim that they don’t understand the difference between thought and action? I teach my child that it’s okay to be angry, but it’s not okay to hit. It’s okay to disagree with someone, but it’s not okay to throw things at them. Like CL says, use your words, not your genitals. Gddmt wants to reduce the motivation of cheaters to the emotional level of a toddler and have it be accepted as a fully rational adult behavior. Sorry, but if someone behaves like a petulant and entitled brat, I am likely to treat them accordingly.

  • Funny but sad. Seems that these people are born with some type of cheaters manual in their brains. Looking it seems everyone of these soulless creatures act the same before and react the same after with a slightly diff twist at times.

  • If anyone was waiting around for a change, it was me. He was out drinking in bars, flirting with servers, calling me a bitch and acting like a spoiled child. I kept wondering how long I could put up with that and despite my many repeated attempts to talk about his behaviour I was called “manipulative” and “controlling” for my efforts. I asked many times to have that “difficult conversation” but would be met with “don’t be silly. I love you.” Not so as it turned out.

    Like every other boring cheater since the dawn of time, they want their cake and eat it too. He was a selfish coward. In many ways, as painful as it was, the affair was the last straw. I was DONE. I called a divorce and he experienced a genuine narcissistic injury, raging at me that he’d been unhappy for years.

    So, no I don’t buy that it was partly my fault. I was unhappy and I didn’t cheat. I got a damn divorce.

  • This – “You steal a credit card, people are going to call you a thief. You don’t like that? Don’t steal credit cards.” Love it. Generic equivalent = once a cheater, always a cheater.

  • Look, this isn’t a tower filled with transcendent chumps who can look down from the heights of their enlightenment with love for all the world, including the cheaters who betrayed them, often in vile ways. This is a hospital for suffering people. We need to heal and are here to help others heal. People here have been pointed in the direction of our own weaknesses and faults as a means of ensuring we didn’t notice what was really going on. We let that happen. That is hard to own. Raging against what happened, fighting back against the past, standing up for ourselves on these pages is part of the healing process. This is active healing in progress.

    There is a small kernel of truth in gdmmt’s post. If “cheaters are worthless sub humans” were the sole end game, well yes, that wouldn’t be healthy for anyone. But we do have a healthy goal. It is the state of meh. As so beautifully expressed in Steve’s letter earlier this week.

    Don’t yell at people for not being healed yet, gdmmt, or for not healing the way you like, or anything else, really. You’re in a hospital. If you’re going to visit, make your priority the people in the hospital beds, not those who put them there.

    • Ohana

      Cheaters who interpret the point of Leave A Cheater Gain A Life to mean cheates are worthless sub humans, are ENTITLED to their opinions. After all we can’t control their spin. Perhaps it’s what they see when the supply runs out, the whore makes demands, and they have to face the false self. Now I’m making myself laugh imagining the X saying, ” I am NOT a worthless sub human”.

      • I’m not allowed to think of cheaters as worthless subhumans? Drat. That is going to require a significant schema shift. What’s the alternative?

        • Tempest, I would never say you aren’t allowed. You are too formidable! I just meant that in the end, the goal isn’t to stew in how awful they are. The goal, after healing, is to go on to live great lives. I would never trust a cheater. Don’t want that in my life ever again. But I don’t need to demonize them forever, or at least I hope not.

          Having said that, would this work as an alternative? A toxic offshoot whose poisonous touch must be avoided at all costs?

          PS-great news about the Ashley Madison karma you mentioned up thread. Sounds like you are about ten steps ahead of your toxic offshoot.

          • “A toxic offshoot whose poisonous touch must be avoided at all costs?”

            Works for me, Ohana!

            (and thanks for the congrats–my X doesn’t realize I have his full profile info (including the zip where the account was created–our house; oops, MY house now). He told the friend to whom he was freaking out to “please tell Tempest I didn’t create that account.” Liar; let him tell me himself and he gets it with both barrels.)

      • Ex was constantly saying to me “I am not a monster”. I never once said he was but of course that was a way to get me to pat him and tell him he was a good person, stopped working after a while…damn he really was telling me who he was.

    • Ohana, I agree with much of what your post says. I do look back on my relationship, and after counseling and reflection I realize that I was co-dependent. I didn’t love myself enough.

      I suspected things were going on with my ex and other women, I tried confronting him, but he always had plausible explanations. Sometimes they didn’t really add up, but I didn’t really want to know the truth because I didn’t want to break up our family. I’d experienced what divorce does in families throughout the generations, and I was determined not to let that happen to my kids.

      I own being codependent in our marriage, now that I understand what that means. I didn’t know how to stand up for myself, or speak my mind because of the way I was raised. I was too focused on trying to please other people instead of valuing myself and my needs too. I can see how that caused problems in our marriage. But nothing excuses the lies he told and the double-life he was leading. That’s all on him. Do I think his choices were influenced by the way he was raised? Absolutely. Does that excuse him from making those choices? No.

      I chalk it all up to an inability to authentically communicate with each other. It still doesn’t excuse the way he would look at me sympathetically, hold me, and reassure me that nothing was going on with his coworker, when there absolutely was. His actions made me feel crazy, like I couldn’t trust my senses.

      When we lead double lives it makes us sick. I’m so grateful for the chance to live a more authentic life. I can finally be true to myself and not worry that taking care of myself will hurt someone else. It feels so much better to be honest.

    • “People here have been pointed in the direction of our own weaknesses and faults as a means of ensuring we didn’t notice what was really going on. We let that happen. That is hard to own. Raging against what happened, fighting back against the past, standing up for ourselves on these pages is part of the healing process. This is active healing in progress.”

      Wow, Ohana, awesome comments!

  • X rarely ever talked about what was truly bothering him. Until after d day, then he told me the most outrageous things. He said that he got married too young, he was 21 and I was 25. He also said that he didn’t get to date in high school and that I was to blame for that. I met him when he was 21 and I never went to high school with him. How on earth was I to blame for him being a weenie in high school!!!!
    He also told our daughter that I forced him to marry me. That he was so young that he didn’t have a choice, he was 21 for goodness sakes. My daughter asked me if he was a “child bride” lol. And the list went on and on and on. Not once did he say that there may have been something that he could have done better. Apparently I was too mean and blind to see that he was perfect.

    Which came first in our marriage, him cheating and me having that gut feeling of unease while he gaslighted me or did I just not meet his needs even from his high school days? Was I just not empathetic enough to anticipate needs that were so apparent in his high school days? Did I just not have enough compassion for his plight of “uncoolness”? This 40 something year old man said to me that He Was The Cool Guy at work!!! Arrested development maybe???!!!! How on earth are we chumps supposed to anticipate all the “feelings” that the cheaters have if they have totally unrealistic goals for us to meet and they generally don’t ever voice their concerns, feelings or wants out loud, even when they are asked often about their happiness or lack there of?

    • Deel

      The cool guy at work? Yes arrested development. Even a 15 year old wouldn’t put words to those thoughts. Just saying your the cool guy at work gets a weenie award when your in your 40’s.

  • Honesty sucks sometimes, so does doing the right thing, but its better than building a life on lies. Most chumps dont want a life built on a lack of integrity, they just want the fundamental respect honesty affords. Its not much to ask or expect, but for some reason cheaters think thats a big issue.

  • Also, some days I just don’t know what to do besides slash his tires. It takes two, obviously, so he should own his part of those slashed tires. I mean…what *else* am I supposed to do with my dissatisfaction and his inadequacy as a partner?!

    (I kid. Slashing perfectly good tires would be wasteful.)