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UBT: “Sometimes You Need to Betray the Social Order”

orwellGod, I love me some Orwellian doublespeak.

I like to end the week on a participatory note. So your homework today until Monday is to write Chump Nation some doublespeak in the vein of this Esther Perel gem I found on her Facebook page:

Betrayal is awful but sometimes you need to betray the social order to create something that is better and more right. The way out of something that should not continue. Out of oppression, an unfair system. Broaden lens and context, a weapon or pathway to freedom to something that needed to stops. Systems treason. Following the rules is not always the best thing in society. Awful things can happen by “following the rules”.

Betrayal good! I’m reminded of the misattributed quote to Joseph Stalin, that “to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs.” Eggs being people. (The link above to a Slate article has a catalog of murderous dictators who have nicely rationalized slaughter with this expression).

What else could use some spin?

STDs are awful, but sometimes you need more bacterial diversity in your genitals.

With a broader lens and context, poisoning kittens is a pathway to freedom.

Out of oppression… kibbles!

I’ve spent the week drawing cartoons, doing final edits on the book, and fielding requests from the BBC for a segment on the Ashley Madison hack. My brain hurts. The Universal Bullshit Translator is weary, but it will always fire up for Esther.

Betrayal is awful but sometimes you need to betray the social order to create something that is better and more right.

“Better and more right.” English isn’t your first language, huh?

Esther, I’m going to assume you’re speaking about infidelity and not apartheid South Africa. Because we don’t “betray” social orders. We betray people.

How do you overthrow social orders to bring about a better system? Revolution. (Cue affairs as “exuberant acts of defiance.”) Of course, most of the civilized world prefers voting and democracy to lynch mobs and guillotines. But oh hey, we’re talking about betraying oppressive chumps here. Super meanies!

The way out of something that should not continue.

Are you drunk, Esther?

Here’s a suggestion — the way out of a bad marriage is to call a divorce lawyer. It’s real easy here in the West! We have divorce court!

Out of oppression, an unfair system.

Poor cheaters are oppressed, huh? And monogamy is just so unfair! That thing they agreed to, with full agency — it’s hegemonic and bossy!

Broaden lens and context, a weapon or pathway to freedom to something that needed to stops.

Betrayal is just a weapon to stop something that needs stopping. (i.e., commitment to a spouse?) I’m trying to piece together your meaning here Esther, but it’s so word salad-y, that I’m sure you’ll tell me You Didn’t Mean That. But golly, it sure seems like you mean betrayal is for the Greater Good.

Systems treason.

WTF? Is this some dysmorphic robot fantasy you’re crafting, Esther?

People, things. People, things. Systems don’t commit treason. People do. I’m beginning to think you’re kind of a sociopath, Esther. People aren’t things.

Following the rules is not always the best thing in society.

Honey, I didn’t betray you for my own selfish dick, I did it for society! I fucked to fight oppression! Take THAT you treasonous systems! By creating a secret dating profile, I’ll strike another blow for freedom!

Awful things can happen by “following the rules”.

What? Marriage is Nazi Germany?

Frankly, awful things happen when you don’t follow the rules. Anarchy. Chaos. Kim Davis.

Anyway, Chumps, see if you can out-doublespeak the Master, Esther Perel. Have at it.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Her language speaks to the common narc thinking that their affairs make them like James Bond. Doing all kinds of secret stuff that’s really important.

    • Yes, I think the crapweasel thought he was daring, dashing, even. Tossing your fam in the trash heap! Gaslighting and lying! Acting alternately clueless AND defiant!
      Yes, I am intimately familiar with the bon vivant of Greater Atlanta.

        • NewChumpAtl, I’m in SW Georgia. Guess I should get to Atlanta cause it sounds as if I’m missing out on some Sparkly Turd action! Ha! Ha! Ha!

        • Looks like we’re kicking some sorry sausage ass here in GA! For me, it took a bit ( like 5 years), but now I just laugh. No contact for the crapweasel. He lost that right not soon enough.

          • ChestnutMare, I’m not originally from Ga. I moved here for my Ex’s health. He definitely got better and abandoned me here. He lives in another state with his Schmoopie. Now I have to figure out how to get back near my family on my own! Talk about getting screwed over! I really don’t know a soul here! Just him pulling that one on me alone makes me want to throttle him!

    • Even better if her husband is. Let’s see how the almighty EP reacts when her own skin is actually on fire. Then her and Noel Biderman’s wife can join us here and see how glamorous affairs are in real life. Get the popcorn ready CN!

  • Esther’s drivel reminds of that adage–if you put a chimp in front of a computer long enough, eventually they will type a full sentence. Egads.

    • If you put a muddle-minded, slutty Belgian sociopath in front of a smart phone long enough, you get Esther Perel’s Twitter account.

    • Drivel no, this is a classic gaslight statement, poorly crafted and with dreadful grammar. It reminds me of speeches which some people make to prove that they are clever or to problem dodge.

      I think she is using the expert to novice paradigm (I forget who wrote it). The expert
      who is so fluent in her craft that he or she breaks rules and overrides systems to enable a fluid and improved outcome or performance. Or, clever scientists who turn paradigms on their heads to invent new and better crops, surgical techniques, mathematics and engines etc.

      The difference is quite simple, Ms Perels premise will manipulate and deceive whilst the latter will inform and enlighten.

    • Actually many of her sentences are not actually full sentences, sort of random vomitous thought fragments….

  • Awesome analysis CL. It’s too bad that the relationship zeitgeist (at least in the U.S.) is SO narc/sociopathic. Is there any hope for those of us who still believe in monogamy and marriage to find each other in a sea of selfish cheaters? Many tv shows/media feature or are based on infidelity & breaking the “rules” as a pseudo-spiritual path to individual “happiness”. My cheating (with married OM) pseudo-spiritual/feminist stbx spouse claims that such “happiness” is her goal & is very casual/unrepentant abt carrying on the affair. It all makes me feel very hopeless abt having my own monogamous romantic future & sad for the human race.

    • WhyNow.. LOVE your screen name, it’s a question I ask myself often too. Why Now??? Why did he do this to me NOW?

      This is one of my pet peeves. Since WHEN does the world owe everyone perpetual happiness? Do you think our great grandparents and grandparents asked this question during the DEPRESSION and WWII? Are hard times something that people of that generation went to great lengths to avoid? The consequence of this is of course, that you miss out on the character building hard times and tough choices ultimately bring. Having to deal with things is part of LIFE. No one is happy 100% of the time!!! And since when did we come to expect this?

      Getting married and PROMISING to be faithful shouldn’t be that difficult a concept. You aren’t pledging to Love, Honor and Cherish “until I get bored and want some different tail”.. you are supposed to be making a promise. A SELF SACRIFICING promise.. because true happiness doesn’t come from serving your own selfish endeavors, it comes from deeply, truly, loving OTHER PEOPLE. It comes from giving yourself to others, unselfishly, and without the expectation of some “reward” or “what’s in it for me”. Sure all of us would like to have sex indiscriminately with hot young bods, it would FEEL GOOD temporarily.. but does that feed the soul? Does the fill the holes? Is that long term contentment? No it isn’t.

      You are right Why.. TV, Movies, Celebrity gossip, it’s all rooted in “happiness” and often portrays bad moral characteristics, like LYING and CHEATING to manipulate and get what you want out of people. I know this sounds corny, but lately I’ve been watching old 70s TV shows like the Waltons and Little House on the Prairie. They just portray NICE, DECENT families.. it’s sad there is nothing like that on TV now. Nothing even close. No shows that even advocate simple things like taking responsibility and telling the truth. It really is indicative of how screwed up society is. Sorry for the rant!! But I agree 100% with you, and I am sure there are others who do too! Don’t give up!

      • I agree…… I grew up watching Andy Griffith, Little House, etc. There are very few shows on TV today that demonstrate character, morals, family values, etc.
        Our culture is obsessed with youth, beauty, money, sex.

        • I somewhat disagree with this. Plenty of modern sitcoms portray couples working through problems and staying together, despite our culture, and in the face of temptation.

          One example is the marriage of Phil and Claire on Modern Family. Both have faced situations in which it would have been possible to have an affair and the spouse would have been none the wiser. However, they love each other, and their marriage and family are crucially important to them. It’s natural to find other people attractive, but that doesn’t mean you cheat.

          And in real life I know many, many couples who work together to keep it all afloat. Cheating is not the “norm”, no.matter what our cultural zeitgeist would have us believe. The default is monogamy, and getting through the tough spots, and putting one’s family first.

          • Natalie

            Facing temptation? That’s what I do when in the grocery store when I want that candy bar but resist and go for the strawberries. Isn’t it really about character? Or lack of character? Yes! They are predators who knowingly disregard their vows and make a conscious choice to seek out others. Temptation to me implies it was a “mistake” and we know they go back for more and lead double lives.

          • NCHH, I agree. Cheaters are outliers. They’re just trying to convince us that they aren’t.

            • Thanks CL…yes I was totally convinced with his BS and all the reconciliation sites…this shit just happens. Take one, two, three …twenty for the team betrayed spouse, the team is depending on you. He cant help it. He is lost and wifey you aren’t fulfilling something. Ahhh all BS. He is not normal and wow what a beautiful world I am seeing getting him out of my life!!

              • FreeFall

                “He’s not normal”. If ever there was one sentence to describe the X this is it. I remind myself of this when the sadness creeps in. Only a sociopath can erase a lifetime and only look back when it suits his selfish needs.

              • Donna – thanks you are so right!! All of this is mind boggling to me. I am trying really hard to be like him this week. I have been trying to turn off the “caring” emotion so I can get through the finacial part of the divorce paperwork. I find myself saying “it would be easier for him if he paid this for now” WTF it would be easier if he hadn’t spent all of our savings on F-buddies!! I do not get it!! All of our children have minor surgeries needed (nothing serious – ortho stuff) but he spent the money I saved!!! How can he be so selfish? I cant wait until I get free from him so I stop wondering.

                Stay strong chumps-enjoy your your weekend 🙂

          • The ‘norm’, my ass. Asshat must have told me dozens of times during last summer and fall that ‘it’s very common’. At the time I thought he meant married couples fighting was common. Then in the fall, I asked if he meant people separating temporarily was common, bc he had suddenly decided to move out (it seemed sudden to me since I didn’t know he had been plotting the whole time). He shrugged and said, “I guess so.” After D-Day, in February, I asked if he meant cheating was common and he didn’t give me a specific answer. Fucking fucktard!

      • Thanks. It’s all very sad because I never cheated & was fully committed to spending the rest of my life with her. If it werent for the cheating I would have done almost anything to save our marriage. My happiness came from doing what I could to help her be happy & my love for her had only increased over the years. During our marriage i always put her first in my thoughts; this is probably a sign that I need to stop being codependent. Unfortunately my efforts weren’t enough & I’ve come to understand that I am not & never was responsible for keeping her happy 24/7. I’m now VERY concerned abt learning how to avoid another person like her in the future. It would be awesome if there was a chump exclusive dating service. It seems like the best future partner for me would be someone who has also gone through the excruciating pain of cheating NPD spouse discard.

        • I feel your pain whynow.. I can relate to so much of it. My STBX was also someone I NEVER expected to do this. I thought his loyalty to me was one of his best qualities, I thought our family was his top priority.. but it turns out he was a liar and now it makes me think what else has he lied about? Was our whole marriage a lie? It’s truly a traumatic thing to go through. It rocks your foundation.

          It is VERY good that you wish to learn from your mistakes. That will make you grow from this as a person and end up better. I know it’s hard to see that now. It’s hard for me too because we are still reeling but in time, we will come out of it. You are right, you aren’t responsible for someone else’s happiness. Ironically, my STBX never admitted his transgressions, and like many of this board.. blameshifted and gaslit me mercilessly the whole time, blaming our marital problems on me exclusively.. projecting HIS feelings on to me (saying I never loved him enough, I was always too this, or too that, I didn’t do this right or that right).. which really damaged me for a long time. For a long time I bought into his warped reality and pick me danced like a pro and all he did was nit pick my efforts and ultimately discarded me. Once I finally knew who he was, and he knew he couldn’t lie to me any longer, the discard was quick and complete. It’s devastating.

          I agree with you on future partners. I have thought the same thing. Wondered if I could trust anyone again, but figuring it would be easier with a fellow chump. I do know my picker will be much improved, I will NOT ignore red flags that I did before, if I get a whiff of NPD, entitlement, or someone who casually lies, I am GONE. It’s not worth it.

          Hang in there.

          • I agree – it is difficult to date after what we have endured .

            I hate being told I was codependent!

            No, he was my family and the father of my children. We made vows – I expected him to be there for us!!

            Believeing his lies does not make me clingy, controlling or codependent.

            It has opened my eyes and I haven’t found anyone out there to date with a similar experience.

            The common opinion is that we chumps should “just get over it”.

            Going back to hide under my rock now!

          • @newchumpatl….every single word you typed is an identical description of my life with X-hole. I had spent the last 2 years trying to figure out wtf was wrong with me?? Why was I so negative (his words)?
            Why couldn’t I just be “nice” and “happy”? Their self absorption and deep selfishness is SO suffocating!! You can only spackle so much…

            In my case, once he could no longer lie and the jig was up…the discard was immediate and brutal. Death by a thousand cuts is right.

            He had brainwashed me into shouldering the blame for everything. It took months away from him and hours of reading here to figure it all out.

            • It’s taken me two years to finally rid myself of his gas lighting! “Why are you making this so hard?”, “Why can’t you just move on and be happy that I still want our marriage?”, Why can’t you see that I am suffering too?”. He never stopped blaming me for the wrongs he did ( cheating for 21 years with numerous women).
              He was so good at keeping his double life a secret, I would have never found out unless one of the other women hadn’t decided to blackmail him.
              My reactions to his actions were always brought into question. He would create chaos but his famous word were, ” All I want is peace in my life.”
              I finally filled for divorce last month and am in NC!!!!!!
              Staying connected to this site and reading many books on narcissism are tremendous help to my recovery.
              Thank you all for sharing and helping!!!

              • Yup, “All I want is peace.” Check. Add it to the Cheater Handbook! (CL, that could be your next book project!)

              • OMG….cheater handbook is right. Like a bunch of f*cking parrots….”braaaawkk I need peace!! BRAAAWK!!”

                They truly spew the same vile shit. ..every one of them. Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that. They don’t get that their crapweasel behavior affects others and it isn’t just THEIR happiness that matters. Assholes!

              • Cheaterspeak: “I need peace!” = “I want to do whatever I want and you should shut up and accept it.”

                “Why are you making this so hard?” = “Why are you issuing consequences for my behavior. I don’t want consequences!! [stamps foot]”

                “Why can’t you see that I am suffering, too?” = “I am suffering because you are insistent on asking me questions, and making me give up my AP, and showing anger toward me, and I don’t like it.”

        • I fully agree…. only can another person who “gets it” could understand what we have been thru and not wanting to go thru it again.
          I have sworn I will never get married again. If tho I hope to find lasting committed love. Not hitching my wagon to that train wreck of our legal system.

        • This remark is so appropriate: ” It would be awesome if there was a chump exclusive dating service”.
          I started dating again and find it awful, people are completely unreliable from the start, and the possible relationships are halted dead in their tracks before the first encounter. No way would I want a partner that can’t even make up his mind about how to spend the weekend three days in advance.
          And all this guys who write on their profile: “no longer interested in marriage”. What do they want, exactly ? Use our bodies or our time whenever it suits them ?

        • Whynow – love your name, too. In addition to the Chump dating service how about a Chump conference!

          • YES, a chump conference would be great! It would be a cool way to show ppl that we don’t ALL wink at adultery & cheating as some kind of inevitability or rite of passage for those “in-the-know”. Being cheated on by my stbx spouse feels like she basically destroyed not only our marriage past/future but who I was as a person before dday. It can be argued that eventually I can become a better person out of this, but I definitely agree with divorce minister’s definition of adultery as “soul rape” as I will never be the same. Having a conference for chumps would be a great way to counter pop culture’s sick fascination with “breaking a few eggs” aka destroying families/lives to make some sloppy, crab infested cheater omelets.

        • I think one can, with prooer education about the cluster Bs , begin to spot these folks more easily and avoid them. Knowing what I do now, the red flags my XWs waved would have alerted me.

      • Preach on, Sista newchumpatl!! Amen to everything you said, girl. Seriously.

        My grandparents were married 64 years before my grandfather died of complications with diabetes. My grandmother selflessly took care of him through amputations, and sickness. They had 6 kids together. Life was HARD. They fussed and fumed and loved and laughed. I THOUGT I would have that in my marriage.

        Turns out when one wants it, but the other is a disordered NUT JOB who is capable of betraying and abandoning, it doesn’t work. At least, not after the Chump finds out.

        • Oh, and my grandpa was a Purple Heart-earning WWII Veteran who saved an entire small French village from air bombs being dropped after they were armed. He was a tail gunner. He was 18. He watched his air team blow up with their plane. He jumped after re-securing the bombs. Broke his back in the landing. All this while he had been in love with my grandma since 5th grade, but wouldn’t marry her unless he returned home.

          He did. Then he married her. Then he kept his promises to her with massive back pain the rest of his life. Shrapnel in his head and legs. I bet he wanted a carefree, easy life, too without 6 additional mouths to feed, no time to himself and a wife consumed with raising his kids. He was a war hero, by gosh! Didn’t he “deserve” it??

          Can NOT even think about men like my grandpa being as selfish as the x-douchebag was in my sham “marriage.” Just unbelievable.

            • Thanks, CL! Love everything you’ve done and continue to do for us Chumps, helping us move forward! Good luck with all your new book work! =)


            • Amen, girl. You’ve got that right. I just pray there are still men of great honor and discipline who are looking for mighty, intelligent, worthy women like us. I’ve told my family that it’ll likely take a Delta Force or black ops guy to handle me at this point. Someone who’ll inspire me, and that I’ll willingly follow and be inspired by, as well. *Sigh* I’ll keep praying for him to find me! =D

              • KibbleFree_MightyMe, Delta & special ops can be their own unique breed. These fabulous men (and some remain, I still choose to believe) are trained experts in deception, gaslighting and living a double life. Dday for me included the statement, “Wow. You would have been really good at Delta” said to my upstanding, honorable, service driven Green Beret as he swore on our 2.5 year-old daughters life he’d never cheated – so convincingly I had visual proof AND I STILL started to believe the convincing stance of his trained mindfuckery! I guess “upstanding service” really meant doing his AP in the local park against a tree for her husband and kids to see. Or in her car. Or his truck. Geezzz, I guess his d–k wasn’t listening during his police academy training 15 years-ago that doing it in a public park is a lwed, indecently exposed act subject to citation. Clearly, his character just never made it to any training or developmental classroom at all. My doctorate degree in psychology didn’t prepare me for his level of skill in deception. You don’t need a Special Ops man to be inspired by; look in that mirror! There’s a mighty inspiration right there! As CL has said, Hold Out For Real Monkey Love and the man that will be inspired by YOU & all that your kibblefree self has survived!

              • Thanks, Lina! (((hugs!)))

                Chumped Doc – thank you so much for helping me not fantasise about the bulk of these guys being as honorable and Chris Kyle as I’d hope. =( I completely didn’t think about any of the issues you brought up – WOW. I totally different kind of disordered. Just crazy.

                (((Hugs, girl)))

          • Kibble Free – love your post. Because….

            As a child of the 60’s & 70’s with one foot firmly planted in the 50’s traditional values (Father was a Marine in Korean War) – we sought to advance civil rights, women’s rights, nuclear disarmament, Earth Day, the dismantling of political corruption in the highest office, and the big punch through the Vietnam War that claimed so many lives and culturally abandoned its military survivors afterwards; so many of whom had no choice given the draft.

            My generation was indeed very powerful because we were many, and we were strong. Creatively, it is compared to times like the Italian Renaissance, or the musical greats of Beethoven, Mozart & Bach, or Jazz in the 1920’s, but I have read and I wonder; think of how much stronger, more powerful we would have been without drugs, and there were a lot of drugs. –This is why the Great Generation of WWII is still the beacon of strength and fortitude in history. I am saying all this because I know a couple of WWII vets and soon they will be gone but their stories and valor will live on forever.

            Undoubtedly, there is a breakdown of civilization happening at the moment. Beyond trying to navigate my own “personal disillusionment”, I wonder how the future will look long after our generation is gone. (Sigh) I am sure there is an App for that.

            I grew up pre- super-technology and while I am competent at it, I really am gobsmacked at the stunning advances in modern technology (Jetsons cartoon come to life), but I can’t help but think of one of my favorite films – Fritz Lang’s Metropolis, the 1920’s film set ironically in 2026 (not that far away!). Are we “…The workers labor in a monstrous machine, a hellish industrial complex where they must accomplish repetitive and dehumanizing tasks”?

            I know a couple of people who have gone no contact with technology. Oh, it’s tempting. Because I long for a simpler time, somewhere back in time where the universe was pondered instead of known and filed under a google search…

            Call me old-fashioned, because finding love and companionship again is complex because yes, while I cannot time travel back to a more desirable era, I want to be with someone who understands the deceit in this very duplicitous cultural environment we live in today, and who understands the technology behind it as well. Ugh, Is that too much to ask?

      • “This is one of my pet peeves. Since WHEN does the world owe everyone perpetual happiness?”

        Yes, yes, and more YES!!!

        I can’t for the life of me figure out why more folks aren’t content simply being content…

        …and why they don’t realize that the type of “happy” they are trying to pursue full-time is only SUPPOSED to be an occasional occurrence, like an extremely decadent dessert.

        When did we start forgetting this?

        The universe doesn’t owe anyone that type of constant happiness!

        • Yes, the ever-popular need for “happiness” is what blew my family apart. How is that working out for him? He’s getting laid. Score one for him. His kids are awkward around him and don’t really want to spend time with him and when they eventually do, it will NEVER be the same. He is worried about his finances because of pending divorce settlement. He’s been mooching off a friend for almost a year to try and save money and sent me pics so I could see how awful his room was. He has bags under his eyes. His hair grew more gray. He continues to lie at work in an effort to make sure no one finds out they had an affair. A year later, he’s still trying to cover up his shit. For the rest of our lives, we won’t be a cohesive family at graduations, weddings, births, baptisms. So score one, take away eight on the happiness scale. Take care of that bone buddy. The rest of it doesn’t matter, right?

          • Amen. It can seem like the sparkly life is all “kicks and giggles” for a while.. STBX was like a giddy teenager to family talking about his new “pad” and “dating”… seems the original whore is out of the picture.. but who knows and who cares.

            Interestingly enough, he’s taken up smoking, he looks older, and he seems generally unhappy. He’s got plenty of money but he’ll be paying me every month for a very long time. I hope it’s worth it bucko. You are still a middle aged middle manager giving a chunk of your paycheck to your X wife. Not exactly a prize. But hey, he needed “fun” and “excitement”. Now you got it!

  • Holy shit**t. Absolutely hilarious! I think I laughed so hard a little pee came out!

    • STDs are awful, but sometimes you need more bacterial diversity in your genitals.

      Laughed so hard after reading this that I would’ve peed myself if I hadn’t had surgery to correct incontinence! Thanks for making my day, CL!

  • Right and better?! Perel is clearly living in an alternative universe. Adultery is wrong. And it certainly NOT better for its victims.

      • You know I wonder- does Perel moonlight as an international Madame? She speaks and aims her talks to business men, is it just a front for the real action/money?

  • Did she grow up in a country where it was socially acceptable for her Mother to drink copious amounts of alcohol while pregnant with her? Or did Esther spend loads of time in alternative lifestyle arrangements while at college that encouraged using lots of drugs to expand her “fine” thinking skills and her mind? This woman is off the charts! I think she needs to slide off the face of the Earth! She’s just daft!

  • I did watch Esther’s Ted talk on infidelity and her analogy that modern day discovery of infidelity is like ‘death by a thousand cuts’ made total sense to me . This however is BS!

      • I.E., Certain people, in order to feel “alive,” need to exhibit enough small blows/cuts to another person to cause their (emotional) death. Guess that fits cheaters.

      • HoLy crapola! Asshat refers to my discovery of his second life and the fallout as ‘Death by a Thousand Cuts!!!!!” Very dramatic. Poor shithead pity party victim of getting his ass busted.

        • Wait…HIS death by a thousand cuts??? Not YOUR death by a thousand cuts. Your narc ass**le takes the cake ANC.

      • Seems like the classic mark of expert deception and manipulation to me – straight BS peppered with some semblance of truth to throw those who think carelessly off the scent. A set up for the inevitable doublespeak.

    • I just finished watching it, too. What struck me was when she said something along the lines of recommending an affair would be like recommending someone to get cancer. Then went on to describe cancer victims’ new and better look at life. What a f****d up analogy. There are varying degrees of survival rates given the type of cancer and affairs to a marriage are lethal. Sometimes complications from the therapy ends up killing you instead of the cancer as well.

      • I’m sure that NO ONE would want to go through cancer for the better outlook on life that can be obtained once they’re on the horrific journey. And the same goes for dealing with betrayal and soul raping. I wouldn’t wish this s**t on my worst enemy. It sucks and so do the cheaters who f**k over their spouses & families. Cheating on your family is NEVER a good thing EVER!!!

    • There’s nothing like having an affair to beat down the deadness. Really, Gettinoverit? Talk about salad-y . Why beat a dead horse when one can simply get a divorce and date/fuck strange to your hearts content.

      • OMG-THIS!!!!!!

        Why beat a dead horse when one can simply get a divorce and date/fuck strange to your hearts content.


  • I think the facts that marriage requires consent in the Western world and divorce is widely available are making Esther’s argument (and therefore her brand) less viable. She seems to be wildly grasping at straws; if a spouse feels the need to commit “systems treason” against the horror of marriage, s/he can call an attorney. Ms. Perel is unnecessary. She’s worried about her relevance and paycheck.

    • That is one of the fatal flaws in their justifications, Cat Lady: divorce is so readily and easily available,

  • Cheater: “My affair will make us both better spouses as you will learn to pick me dance prettier and I will get to reap the benefits of your new kibble affection”.

    Chump: “Orrrrrr.. “I could find someone who wouldn’t cheat and has decent character as well as an understanding of what marriage vows mean”

    No contest.

    • Lol, so true. Because i cant do full NC yet, I still get the temptation to pick me dance & sometimes wish I could turn off my love for my stbx as fast & easily as it seems she has. To our credit, I guess chumps just aren’t built that way.

      • Hang in there the desire will lessen with time. I can’t go NC either, we have two kids so I’ll be dealing with him a long time, and I don’t necessarily want a “contentious” relationships, for the sake of our kids, so I do play nice when I can.

        But my desire to “woo” him back has decreased significantly. Distance will do that. You will start to see things a LOT clearer once she’s out from under you for a long period. Think of it this way, they’ve been disconnected from us for a WHILE before DDay.. so they have a head start. But we will get there.

        I still have moments but it’s getting better. And NO we aren’t built that way.

      • Any remaining love I had for cheater after D-day became overruled by my limbic system screaming “danger! danger!” anytime I had to see him.

        • I hear you, Tempest, when I unexpectedly see my STBX, who lives across the street, I think, ‘Back away slowly; don’t make any sudden moves’ in the way I would had I encountered a rabid, snarling dog.’ I think that my cortisol level spikes and stays high and I can’t think straight for nearly half a day. Need to figure out how to deal with that physiological response for my good and the good of everyone around me.

          • RockStarWife–I feel horribly that you have to see that piece of decaying flesh every time you look out your window. There’s just no way to heal properly; it’s as if the doctor left a scalpel in your surgery wound. You could try a little conditioning (since I know you have psych background)–since STBX is a musician, find a picture of a chimp with a guitar (I found one easily with google, but I can’t embed it). Look at a picture of POS, then the chimp, then POS, then chimp, until you can’t see one without thinking of the other. Perhaps the goofy chimp picture will negate a little bit of the justifiable fear-of-rabid-dog emotions. (I’m fortunate in that youngest daughter won’t see cheater dad, which means I have successfully avoided him for months.)

          • RSW – I am sorry you have to live like this, I am in the same situation.

            It is helping me to have access to a great EMDR therapist who helps me decrease my physiological reaction to my STBX, try and see if you can find a good one where you live.

            Also, reading “Restoring Hope and Trust,” and applying their 90/10 technique to situations where I have to face my STBX has been helpful –

            Finally, daily meditation either right when I wake up or when I get to bed, as well as when I feel my physiology is getting the best of me has helped me inch towards the teflon-coated mind I will need to build to deal with the shit sandwiches I have ahead of me given that I procreated with my STBX. I have never been in the military, but the free meditation for veterans videos I found online have helped.

            Hugs to you RSW!

            • X no longer triggers me if I see him on the road or purposely driving by my house when he could avoid it all together. Yet just thinking about that drug addicted whore hugging my daughter who is traumatized by being in her company in order to see her father on brief occasions is disturbing.

      • Why now

        It is hard for us to turn off the love for them. Loving a cheater in my case was life long. What are YOUR needs. Cheaters typically are selfish and loyal spouses are the selfless givers. I’m not fond of “codependent” personally. Cheating involves layer upon layer of lies, planning, and blame shifting. Reconcilliation with a cheater requires STD testing, eating shit sandwiches, and false remorse on the cheater’s pick me menu. Pick YOU. You deserve better.

        • Thanks Donna, that helps. Although this has all happened very recently, I’m definitely in the process of picking ME & wholeheartedly feeling that I deserve better. Thanks to CL & all the great comments & advice like yours, I’m hopeful that I’ll get through this.

          • It will get better Whynow, I am not a fan of codependent crap either. I gave to my ex and it was supposed to be a two quo reciprocal thing. I wasn’t codependent, I was lied to and I fell into an abuse cycle that was subtle before I discovered the cheating. I think most chumps are very self sufficient and don’t need a lot of support so they don’t realize how much they gave and how little they got in return until the shit hits the fan. After DDay we realize it, but it takes time. We are badasses that got beat down by assholes, it takes a while to get back to badass.

            Jedi hugs!

            • DDW: Before I met x, I was completely self-sufficient. During the time we were together, I allowed him to grind my confidence down to nothing. Working my way back to normal, and your comments gave me just the lift I needed tonight.
              Thank you SO much.

            • Datdamwuf – this is an such an insightful, excellent response! Jedi hugs back to you!

              • I agree. I was so angry when my first therapist tried to label me codependent and was so devastated because I had “made him my when world”. Not true at all. I had many of my own interests and things I did on my own. But he WAS my husband and the most important relationship in my life which is what marriage is supposed to be isn’t it?

              • That should have read “made him my whole world”.

                I really need to start proofreading more.

              • Agree with DAT. Anyone in a rekatiinship with a cluster B for any length of time gets ground down. These folks are relentless abusers with boundless energy for abusing. They fuckjng thrive on it.

  • Need “out of oppression”
    Is that “unfair system” holding you down
    Try my divorce attorney. She’s awesome! She’ll help you with that whole “pathway to freedom” thing. I’ll give you her number so you don’t even have to look for it since you’re so busy with your sermon on the mount thing.

    • Mandie101, that’s hilarious! But at the same time, I think I’ll try it! What the Hell, I have nothing more to lose, right?? Thanks for sharing.

    • I didn’t find it funny, mental health issues are negated and made fun of too often and it’s not at all helpful when you do want o just “stop it” and you can’t. If it helps someone that’s great, it’s not going to help anyone struggling with true depression or PTSD, it just invalidates a very real issue in their lives.

      • Oh I see your point, a chump being yelled at STOP IT is not going to be healthy. I was laughing picturing Bob Newhart yelling that at my xNP tiny dictator bully — to stop the gaslighting blame-shifting CHEATING double life James Bond fantasy.

      • Dat, I respect your opinion of the video. I admitt I got a chuckle out of it. I showed it to a friend who is a pyschiatrist( great human being) and he found it hilarious. He said wouldnt life be easier if we could all take the ‘ stop it pill ‘ he also commented that it was a stereo typical parody of the white privileged women who had nothing else to worry about. Not the typical pts that he sees from a very diverse and under served poor community. I am a huge advocate for mental health services. A grossly underfunded component of healthcare world wide. Medicine has failed us. We treat hypertension with a pill and recommend dietary and lifestyle changes but offer little to challenge and support the patient in acieving the mindset to make those changes. We dont treat the whole person.
        There is a huge difference ( i aint preaching) between situational depression/anxiety and the coping skills needed to move thru those emotions and changes vs an organic mental illness. There are variables. There is a spectrum.
        I would not want to compare my depressin nor the PTSD dx I was given after my rape to the PTSD of a victim of political torture. I work with world wide refugees seeking asylum after years of torture and oppression. The suffering of a young woman after watching her child beheaded andthe other burned alive is not comparable. I have had the priveldge to travel with my work and I have met with families living and eating in dumps…. And other families that i wished had a dump to live and eat out of. I am always humbled. I always forget that I have too much.
        I was brutally raped. I survived. I have lived a life of lies , disappointment and now fear with my ex spouse. I survived. I still eat three( if not more) meals a day, have a comfy little house and a child that I can still hold in my arms. I go to the mall. I own a car. I can buy myself a coffee. I have liberties , options and more riches than I can list here. The space in my mind / pysche that my rapist and my ex occupy is getting smaller. I still deal with those pains and fears. Somedays not in a positive way but I stopped beating myself up for that. There are days when I think I am batshit crazy. It has taken awhile but I have shifted my focus on all the shit negative crap in my life to all the positives. I had dreams and hopes when I was with my husband and we were a family. Sadly my investment didnt payout. I mourn. But its not the end of life. Its not the end of dreams… Just that one.
        I get the ‘ stop it’ How nice would it be to say ‘ today i am going to stop it. I wont feel/ behave this way anymore’ …. And it happens. Easy peasy. We all know its not. Healing and coping involve steps. We might fall off the path every now and then but as long as we keep moving in that direction. Its not a race.
        Out of all this crap i have learned that I am ok. A little broken. A little wiser. A little crazy. I am ok with my crazy…. It keeps me sane.

        • TheClip

          Coming out of a lifetime of cheating and abuse,this is the most powerful heartfelt post about survival and strength. “I am ok”. I will add that to my list of self-statements I repeat daily. You inspire me, thank you.

        • Clip, please don’t dismiss your pain. I read a book years ago by a psychiatrist who said there are some things we never completely recover from. Loss of a parent before puberty, PTSD, rape and one or two more are on the list. You have suffered from two of them. You, and all the others on this blog, are victims. You cannot compare emotional pain. Grief is grief.
          On the list of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs there should be “trust”. Infants who have untrustworthy caregivers do not develop good emtional health. If you don’t trust your parents how can you love them in a healthy way. If you cannot trust your partner how can you trust anyone. The deeper the intimacy the deeper the pain when that trust is violated. We, in the “West” constantly denigrate our suffering because we compare it to slaughter we see on the news. You lost your innocence twice. Once about your physical safety and once about your emotional safety. Those are gut wrenching losses. Instead of hiding you are participating in helping others. You are a hero. So are all of the people here. Everyone who gets up every day and puts one foot in front of the other and just keeps going is a hero. I have a friend whose mother died when she was a child. She was dumped on one relative after another. Her husband walked out on her after 20 years of marriage. She said in order to feel like she was not going to lose her sense of gravity she would just hold onto to her kitchen counter because she thought she would just float away. Instead of hiding she went out into her community and has been wonderful to those less fortunate. This is a woman who has two children with long term illnesses. She just keeps going. Please know that there are silent heroes, much like yourself, who never see how much of a difference they make. I am sure Tracy never knew that this blog would have the worldwide influence it has. Such small beginnings change the world.

          • Thanks Let go. I dont dismiss my pain nor minimize it. Its mine. I have learned to live with it and despite it. In my darkest hours when i thought I would be better off dead I wasnt looking for anything to save me. I couldnt see. I didnt see or feel life. I was in my 20′ s when I was raped. It seems like a lifetime ago. I developed some fairly destructive behaviors. I was well into my career and coasting on auto pilot. It was easier than feeling. Men came and went. I refused to purchase anything that would tie me down or not make it easy to flee. I owned a bed and some plastic bins for my clothes. I never hung a picture. The barren walls and surroundings confused my friends. It was a way to never have anyone over. I lived like that for a long time. I agreed one day to go climbing with a long term friend, who I guess thought I needed saving. I never climbed before and was scared shitless. I never had a chance to bail because he showed up 4 hours before the time he originally told me and said ‘ i lied, we are going now’ it was a 45 min drive to the cliffs and sat in silence. My friend never uttered a word. We made our way down into a canyon to meet his friend with the climbing gear. A friend with world class climbing skills and credentials. I was harnessed up, given instruction, and placed in front of a monolith. I looked strait up from the shadows of the canyon and trees to the blue sky. I felt very small. I will call him ‘ Jasper’ talked to me in a soothing slow voice as I placed my hand and foot on the first out cropping. Three points of contact thats all I could remember. I started up. I couldnt look too far ahead my head would pivot up to look at the sky which was steadily getting closer and I would hear Jasper say’ you will get there, find your path’ my eyes shifted left and right, my hands feeling for a grip. Up and up. I reached the summit and felt the sun on my face. The wind. The tops of the trees. But i was still vertical and clinging to a rock. Fear kicked in. I looked down. More fear. I started to shake. Its wasnt beautiful anymore. I was terrified. Tears streaming down my face. Jasper whos tone was ever so pleasant and peaceful said ‘ let go’
            I screamed ‘ NOOOOO! GET ME DOWN! GET ME DOWN! GET ME DOWN!’ Sobbing. Then sobbing turned to rage. He said it again ‘ let go’ My rage took over and i really started screaming ‘ FUCKING GET ME DOWN! ‘ He calmly said ‘ if you want to get down you have to let go. Lean back and let go.’ That man had patience because I stayed there clinging to the rock until I was sure my hands were going to fail. I looked up at the sky and thought I am going to die what is the point of being afraid. And I let go. I expected and waited for the fall. Nothing. I was standing perpendicular to the cliff. I heard my friend and Jasper whooping! And then Jasper yelled ‘ YOU DIDNT DIE! Whats the view like now? ‘
            I closed my eyes and lay suspended for a while then I opened my eyes. Everything looked different. And my life changed.
            I am not sure what the moment will be now. The pain is different. When will I let go? I still cling. At some point I will let go. And i will be ok.

        • Clip, I love your post! Thank you for reminding us how privileged we are to live in an society that provides us with basic human needs. Needs that we take for granted. If we stayed more grateful for all the things we have then we might not start Wanting all the things we don’t have. The buddhist say “To desire is to suffer .”

        • TheClip, it’s not that I didn’t laugh at the Newhart vid, it’s that I see people negate mental health issues all the time, I’ve also had people make me feel less than because I’ve not overcome some of the PTSD issues fast enough to suit them and it spirals me because I hate myself that I have not overcome them, that even those things that I KNOW are irrational can still hurt me. It sucks to basically be told you are all fucked up and if you were just “normal” all you have to do is “stop it”. Before I went through the shitstorm with Saddam I would not have felt that way. Thank you for sharing your stories here, they inspire me, and thank you for understanding why I said something despite my own laughing at the skit. I know so many people struggling far more than I with mental illness that I have to say something.

          As to how much we have compared to others, that too is always in my mind, I first saw real poverty and horrendous suffering in my 20s and I always comfort myself with the very real truth that I have so much more than most, both physically and mentally I am truly in a good place. I would like to be in a better place wher I can help those less fortunate, in my current situation I am not able to do so. Just another brick in the wall I’m trying to tear down so I can be me and help others.

          Jedi hugs TheClip, and can I borrow your rock climbing friends? JK

  • My ex once said in a very bitter voice that he had “absolutely no respect for logic.”

    As If logic and fixed meaning in language was his sworn enemy.

  • “This isn’t the ideal situation to raise our children in.” In response to what he makes of our children’s reaction to him abandoning us for his tru wuv. Ya think, moron?

    • God Lord, that is a genius statement. Did he come up with that all on his own? So sorry for you and your kids 🙁

  • This is just so barf inducing. I went and looked at her Facebook page and it occurred to me that she might not really believe any of this crap she spews – it’s all just part of her arty farty pseudo-edgy image management. All the black and white photos of sexy looking 1940s couples. Yeah, WTF-ever. How many of our cheating spouses looked like THAT when they were blowing their AP in secret while we were home cooking dinner for them? And if sex wasn’t involved, would this fake intellectual Esther be out there giving Ted Talks on why it’s cool, edgy, sexy and “okay” to be a liar? You nailed it again, CL. Great post.

  • Esther Perel talks out of both sides of her mouth, she lacks depth and clarity, it’s as though she’s managed to confuse herself and doesn’t know how to shut up.

    The things she says are bizarre, nonsensical, it’s a series of psycho babble, prattle, jibber jabber, that is rather bare bones with no real substance. She sells narcissistic blabber jabber juice to a cheater fan base that slurps up her nonsense.

    Esther says, “Betrayal is awful but sometimes you need to betray the social order to create something that is better and more right.” Huh…what?….social order?…wtf is she talking about…grammar please…

    I prescribe Esther an anal bead enema, an std, and a box of crayons to expand on her art therapy degree.

  • Slathering your cheating spouse with bacon grease and locking them in the laundry room with a half dozen rabid pit bulls is awful but sometimes you need to betray the social order to create something that is better and more right. The way out of something that should not continue. Out of oppression, an unfair system. Broaden lens and context, a weapon or pathway to freedom to something that needed to stops. Systems treason. Following the rules is not always the best thing in society. Awful things can happen by “following the rules”.

  • Esther’s in it for the money. Pure and simple. Because crap sells.

    People who violate agreements (cheaters) need a script and she puts it in writing for them.

    And that makes her a special kind of twisted.

    • Agree Nomar, Marci — she provides necessary word salad to people who hate logic and nobody is the boss of them. If these Disordered Ones had attention spans longer than those of fleas, they would read her words, think about them for at least 30 seconds, and reject them as the appallingly sloppy noise that they are. But nooooo, these words are Useful Tools in the Cheater Toolbox! And the words must be Gospel because they are falling from the Sacred Esther Lips that speak at the Holy TED!

  • “Awful things can happen by ‘following the rules’.

    What? Marriage is Nazi Germany? “

    First they came for the pedophiles, and I said nothing because I am not a pedophile.

  • Maybe we could organize meet-ups, chumps only…it would be easier to share w a new person wo having to explain the skin-searing agony of all of this. To those of you w new chump-partners, where did you find them?

    The world seems pretty narc-y to me right now, and I’m worried about my picker. Another of these might do me in…

  • No one in our western society is required to play by the rules of monogamy or marriage. They are voluntary. Optional. If you don’t like it, don’t agree to it. It’s like choosing to be vegetarian, and then crying about the tyrany of vegetarianism. If you want to eat a burger, then don’t make a big show of being vegetarian, and don’t blame other vegetarians for your desire to eat meat.

      • Leper colonies were terrible, but I sometimes wish that we had narc colonies. On occasion, I might enjoy observing narcs rip each other to shreds in self-induced gladiatorial-style combat.

  • Still wondering, Esther, how exactly I “oppressed” my ex-wife and imposed “an unfair system” on her. By exchanging mutual and sacramental vows of love and faithfulness with her and then honoring my vows? But giving all the love, energy, attention and money I had to her and our children for 22 years? By trying to reconcile when I discovered her cheating for the first time? How was that “oppressive” and “unfair” to her? Do you know what “oppressive” and “unfair” mean? And why exactly did it “need to stop?” In fact, what it that “it” that needed to stop? Monogomous conduct, I suppose? And if it “needed to stop,” why exactly did my ex-wife not “stop it” and divorce me? Instead she *continued* to cheat and perpetuated the structure of the “oppressive” and “unfair” system of marriage you decry. Seems more selfish than revolutionary, more Donald Trump than Bishop Tutu. Why wouldn’t she tell me it “needed to stop” so we could divorce and I could find someone who wouldn’t feel so hard done by my traditional ideas of love and marriage?

    This is just horseshit, Esther. Really dumb. Selfish thoughts stupidly expressed. In the future, avoid tweeting while drunk. And stupid. Which is to say, you should probably just avoid tweeting.

    • Nomar, you fixed her grammar, I am not a grammar natural but I can’t get past the “stops” thing, why the extra s. Otherwise well said, heh.

      • God I love this site. I worry sometimes though — here we are all again, trying to EXPLAIN Esther’s logical shortcomings to our supposedly mystified bumbling myopic-ethical-view-afflicted Timid Forest Creatures. Really, none of the Cheaters care a whit about our logic, our ethics, our morals, our loyalty, our vows — I mean if we are trying to explain why THEY should embrace them in THEIR conduct. Of course they expect all of that from us!!! Our outrage fuels their sense of specialness and omnipotence. Yawn why bother railing against a prancing bullying lunatic who wants to goad you into imploding. Let’s do what the TED guys think is cool strategy and *DISRUPT* Esther’s narrative by agreeing with her! Let’s just take ownership of Esther, and hijack all of her justifications as our own. Let’s gaslight our Cheaters. Let’s hide assets and tell lies about them to friends and family. Let’s only do only exactly what we feel like all the time, and act befuddled if told something else is expected of us. And let’s deny doing any of that and scream about being so wrongfully accused of being a monster.

  • OMFG. Sitting here with my mouth open remembering OWhore’s pre-DDay written contortions (found after DDay) trying to make it noble and right for her and Fucktard to have had their magical affair and maybe even (oh please, oh please!!) for him to leave me for her. AND why it was a good thing for ALL OF HUMANITY for our marriage to end! She must have been channeling Esther Perel.

    A quote from one of her endless ‘literary genius’ emails:

    “Commitments that seemed good at the time they were made, but that tend towards destruction, towards pain, towards suffering, towards the common woe (Oh horrors! My marriage was HURTING SOCIETY!!), those commitments should be dissolved. They should be recognized by the participants and by the community as destructive. Those bound by the covenant should cast off the bonds (like she cast off her clothing on my couch!). That’s difficult (SHE seemed to find it all too easy). The community should assist them in doing so. ”

    So, I’m thinking that maybe my commitment to non-violence, which seemed good at the time it was made, should have been cast off …

      • I think it was more like, “Hey village, tell Chchchchump that you agree: it’s a GOOD THING that Fucktard and I are humping away behind her back. it’s GOOD FOR HUMANITY!

        (Later in the same literary masterpiece: “I know that your union with Chchchchump bears ugly fruit. I know it bears pain and struggling and deceit and lies and death and pain and pain and pain. It bears pain to you. It bears pain to Chchchchump. I know it will continue to bring pain.” Like I said – channeling Perel, only with more drama and literary ‘style’.)

        • This sentiment is the chicken-and-egg dance that cheaters love to trot out. Infidelity happened because there was pain, they say. So their solution is to cause more marital pain, which puts them into the self-justifying loop of infidelity>pain>infidelity>pain>infidelity>pain. Keep in mind, of course, that only the cheater’s pain is relevant to the conversation. When chumps experience pain, their job is to chicks it down, smile sweetly, pick-me dance their hearts out, and of course never, EVER do anything that the cheater would find painful, because that will just drive them to cheat, you know…

        • good lord, “I know it bears pain and struggling and deceit and lies and death and pain” Oh, so the relationship itself created your Ex’s LIES AND DECEIT? He personally wasn’t the impetus of that. rubbish,

        • My ex fucked a village, when she farts a random dudes pops out her vajaija, the recent one that popped out had been missing since the nineties, mullet intact and acid washed jeans, he finally made it out alive. One less missing person and he’s reunited with him family. Having been trapped in her uterus all these years he’ll need intensive therapy, but with time should recover. Miracles can happen.

          • I think I snorted my coffee out of my nose on that one PF!
            I really needed that laugh today!

          • OMFG. Headed off to meet the teacher day and all I will be able to think of is your ex farting out random dudes 😀

        • i always said that my ex WAS the village idiot. i was always so ashamed of his actions. but yes. i think he fucked a village to, and he STILL is empty, unhappy and confused.. poor poor little lost boy.

    • She makes it sound like having the affair was the hard thing to do…but she took one for the team because it was the *right* thing to do!! WTF???!?!?

  • I think Esther and her fuckbuddys were outed on Ashley. This sounds incoherent.

    OR, maybe SHE was Noel Biderman’s OW? “they way out of something that should not continue”

    OOoooOOOooooo, I bet the missus is not very happy!

    Or, better yet, SHE is the HACKER!!! “systems treason”

    • You’ve hit the nail on the head with Esther’s double standard. She’s all for overturning the social order, and yet DISAPPROVES of the AM hackers (per her agreement with Glenn Greasewald’s columns)–people who overturned the notion of privacy to “broaden lens and context.”

      I’ve spoken to 3 year olds who made more sense than Esther.

  • Oh can I play, please?

    Instead of focusing on the cheater, here is my interpretation from the chump best interest perspective, the social order being the RIC:

    “Betrayal is awful but sometimes you need to betray the social order to create something that is better and more right.”

    Right, my spouse hiding his multi-months extracurricular activities with sexual partners outside of our marriage is only the tip of the iceberg of his inconsiderate treatment of me within our marriage.

    Oh but you RIC wants me to be the reasonable wife, and FORGIIIIIVE, everyone makes mistakes, you have to think about the kids, [any reason you have heard].

    So I am betraying you, RIC, and I am creating something better and more right – I am divorcing the asshat!

    “The way out of something that should not continue. Out of oppression, an unfair system.”

    Yes RIC, your demands that I wait for 6 months to a year, that I let my asshat ‘grieve’ his affair partner, that I accept his word while knowing that he has already stabbed me in the back without remorse should not continue.

    Out of oppression, an unfair system, I choose to end this marriage where I only abided by our shared promise of integrity, commitment and monogamy.

    “Broaden lens and context, a weapon or pathway to freedom to something that needed to stops. Systems treason. Following the rules is not always the best thing in society. Awful things can happen by “following the rules”.

    That right RIC, allow me to focus on me, focus on my kid, and end this traversy of a marriage where the entitled cheater has proven that he has no qualms about betraying me and no remorse about the consequences of his actions on my kid and me.

    I followed the rules, and now I choose to leave you behind RIC, and leave my cheater, end my marriage and head to MEH!


  • Sadly, many, too many, people are easily fooled and don’t think very deeply. Whenever I spend time with my cheating STBX in public (for kids’ functions), people assume that STBX and I are getting along swimmingly and are great at co-parenting. Nothing could be further from the truth. I put on a brave face and a good front (refrain from clobbering Cheater) as I want to model grace. Cheater usually nowadays acts like a good citizen when we’re all together because doing so serves HIS (Cheater’s, I don’t mean God’s/a god’s) purpose–to make him look good to his relatives, friends, and the general public. People don’t realize that I, the chump, am doing all the ‘heavy lifting.’

    • I stopped going to anything he would be at, when I went NC last April after 4-1/2 years of post-separation & divorced “making nice publicly” chump dancing. It is obvious to anyone who knew us that I am done dancing. I cut off everyone who talks to him or intersects in any way except our two boys. I don’t care what he tells them or what they surmise. Memories of time with him is now uniformly grim; all the CD sparkle finally wore off the big turd.

    • RSW ^^^^ this^^^^^

      No one cares how he acts as long as he gets grace, ex is ENTITLED to grace. I’m entitled to him invading my personal space at public events we both attend. Clobbering the SOB would be priceless and so cathartic but out of the question. Only this weekend ex arrived at our sons football grand final with his new girlfriend arm in arm like a randy teenager. Only game he attended all season, and stood where I had set up seats for myself and our daughters to sit in. No respect or consideration, just entitlement. I spent the entire game standing away with other parents. Those who know the truth and love and support me are entitled to my time those who know and keep challenging my boundaries are entitled to kiss my ass!

  • Oh holy crap! I got the exact same attempt from my ex. Wanted me to bring our kids to a cookout where she and AP would be. No thanks. I have just a little bit of self respect left. Getting stronger all the time too!

  • “Here’s a suggestion — the way out of a bad marriage is to call a divorce lawyer. It’s real easy here in the West! We have divorce court!”

    “Poor cheaters are oppressed, huh? And monogamy is just so unfair!”

    Actually, divorce court IS an unfair system to men, who will hardly ever get a fair shake there, even if you were a model husband who gave so much to your SO, who has you in a sexless marriage, and is unwilling to work with you on it.

    I think I’d rather have an affair, thank you very much.

    • Translation: You procreated with your wife, and if you split, you still have to pay child support?

      And I am thinking anybody who follows up with “I’d rather have an affair” was never in danger of being nominated “model husband” .

      You picked the wrong website to try this bit on. I am a man. I am divorced. Anything it cost to be divorced from a cheater was worth it. And, to my mind, you are demonstrating why that is the case.

      • TimeHeals: Thank you for demonstrating what integrity looks like. Not that the troll will get it…..

        • Thank you Time Heals. I am a chump wife divorced in no-fault California and got utterly raped on child support, spousal support, value of the business he bought me out of. He manipulated his income to almost disappear for the crucial periods, so he got off extremely lightly in everything except the assets we held in both of our names which HAD to be divided 50/50. Immediately after the finalized judgment, his income shot back up to its normal ridiculous level. And guess what. I am eternally grateful to have simply gotten out. He and his warlord divorce team did just fine, coping with the divorce system here in no-fault land. The system as it actually has evolved is deeply unfair to chump spouses.

    • The way out of a sexless marriage is through two paths: 1. Divorce and 2. Communication with your SPOUSE.

      Having an affair is complete douchebaggery and the ultimate mindfuck. I’m sure you think this may make you a better father. But cheating in your marriage means you are also cheating on your family/kids. What a stellar role model you will be for your sons and daughters…..NOPE.

      LISTEN, marriage is hard. It involves a lot of work. I endured a deadbed room too. But I never fucked my coworkers, prostitutes, other people’s spouses, etc… I was manipulated by my cheater into jumping through larger and more complicated hoops to meet his needs. He had consistently invested his emotional and physical energy into other people….NOT EVEN HIS OWN CHILDREN. So, stepping out won’t solve your problems with your marriage, it just confirms your dick takes precedence above everyone and everything else.

      Don’t be THAT douchebag.

    • Shit – I was hoping the trolls might leave town for the long weekend, & never come back.

      • Nah, they’re like exes–they come back, piss you off, scurry away, come back…

    • The husband who works and provides for his wife, but gets little affection/attention from her, is between a rock and a hard place. The husband who loves his wife and does what he can to make the marriage work, but gets little or nothing back, and spends most of her time out with her friends while he takes care of the home life, and who is scared she will take the children away if he pushes the issue too hard, is struggling and hurting.

      The husband who communicates with her about how he needs her and does so much to help and tries again and again to be worthy enough, is actually doing a “Pick Me” dance. Pick me over your girlfriends tonight! Pick me over that silly iPhone! Pick me over the TV today!

      When a “chump” tells her husband that sex is not an important enough that she will not have it with him, but yet so important that he cannot have it with someone else, she is also trying to both have her “cake” and eat it, too.

      Honestly, some “chumps” like to eat cake, too.

      But hey, tell me I “lack character” for wanting to be a part of my kids’ lives, or for wanting a loving relationship with my wife, or for primarily running the household by myself, or for working a full time job to pay all our bills. The second I say I’d consider an affair (I haven’t..yet, but I have considered it because of how unwanted I have felt), I’m the bad guy.

      Really, when I read rumblekitty’s comment and the encouragement under it, I felt awful. It is debilitating when your SO does not want you for that, despite your best efforts. It probably feels at least somewhat like how you might feel that you were never good enough for your SO when you find out they cheated on you.

      Anyway, have a good weekend, everyone.

      • The husband now plays the pity card. The husband sees that going on an INFIDELITY and stating that in his case, he is due an affair because he’s such a sad sausage, probably wasn’t the best idea.

        Get your balls out of your wife’s purse and fix the marriage or get divorced. We don’t do affairs here in case you haven’t noticed.

        Now, no more kibbles for you.

      • Divorce sucks for everyone, Nager. You lose money and time with your kids. Fear of divorce doesn’t excuse affairs. If your marriage sucks that much, why the hell are you in it? To martyr yourself? To model dysfunction to your kids? Or to eat cake? Clearly, it’s not so bad that you won’t end it, or will have an honest conversation, or go to therapy. But you’re happy to risk everything to fuck around on the side.

        Look, Nager, we have a fundamental difference of values. So this conversation is a non-starter. You think infidelity is defensible. We don’t.

        IMO, you’re gutless. If Rumblekitty hurt your feelings, I probably hurt them worse. If you value a close and intimate relationship, stand up for that and fix the one you’re in or get out honestly.

        Most people here did that — they’d tried reconciliation, and/or they got out honestly. Those are the values here. If you’re an apologist for cheating, you’re not welcome. The tagline is pretty clear — “leave a cheater, gain a life.”

        • I guess why I’m still in the marriage, besides the fear, is I never thought this would be the situation I’d be in and that it would be so bad that I thought I might not be able to make it better, and I feel like I’d be giving up by pulling the trigger and leaving.

          I think the years of neglect have just gotten to me. I will probably be planning out how to leave, and stop doing the “Pick Me” dance, and just go through with it, as much as it is going to hurt and how scared I am.

          • Nnager, in case you are not a troll and just bought the excuses and have temporarily lost sight of ethics and honesty. It’s time to do what the chumps suggest, try to fix it and if you can’t be honest and have the integrity to get a divorce instead of becoming a liar and throwing your ethics out the window, ethics are not flexible. Taking a persons choices away by lying to them is not ethical, you can’t respect yourself if you have no ethics. Jedi hugs, don’t fuck your wife over, honest people don’t meet disappointment by fucking their own family over.

            • I don’t consider myself a troll; I have tried a lot to make things work and talk with her, and just feel really frustrated, and I think even someone like me can crack after trying for so long. When a wife is neglecting you for things and people outside the marriage for years, it’s still often going to be seen as okay. If I divorce or had followed through with my thoughts of looking for an affair to feel wanted, I’m the bad guy who ended things.

              It doesn’t help that my masculinity gets attacked because I have expressed myself or admitted a need/weakness. What Rumblekitty said (Get your balls out of your wife’s purse), is the type of line my wife might say when I try to talk with her. She’ll tell me things like how I need to grow some balls if I say I’m tired after getting the kids ready for school, going to work, cooking dinner, and helping the kids with homework for several days in a row, while she’s sleeping and/or out doing something fun. “Man up” is a favorite line of hers.

              I feel like I’ve been played, and I can’t win, and I should stop trying to be worthy enough for her. Since I can’t win, it’s best to end the marriage as soon as I reasonably can, so I can move on to being alone. A friend of a friend gave me a lawyer’s contact info, and I’m meeting with him next week, so I can get good legal advice on what to do to prepare. I have calmed down a bit and won’t cheat…besides, I’m sure that won’t help my case. I think she will be shocked when she is served with the papers, and will finally be willing to talk when she sees I am serious about leaving, but I have made up my mind on leaving and will go.

              I think she’ll be willing to talk at that point, since it means her easy life of being with her friends, me paying the bills, and me doing most of the housework, cooking, and child care will be ending. I have definitely not been getting cake. I will pay what I have to, but her fun life will end. She might even have to get a job – oh, the horror!

              I will just get through this and never get married again. I am still feeling scared, but feel a little better that I have decided I am done, and that it’s just a matter of time.

              Thanks for the Jedi hugs, man.

              • To me, it sounds like your wife is already cheating (Going out doing fun things while leaving you on your own at home with the kids, being an abusive arsehole, and so forth – anyone? What next, guarding her phone and demanding ‘privacy’ if you try to access it?)

                A decent person has communication with their spouse – and make your needs perfectly clear, ie. “Sex is an important part of marriage to me. If you can’t or are unwilling to provide that, then we need to consider a fair divorce”.

                A fucktard doesn’t communicate and does whatever the fuck they feel like.

                Nnager – I suggest you look a bit deeper into this. And start the divorce ball rolling. She’s not pulling her share of the effort? Her problem. Her not having a job? Again, that’s on her.

              • After reading more of your explanations, I agree with Lania–your wife is cheating, and she has devalued you both because she probably has has a personality disorder with serious entitlement issues, and because she is mentally comparing you to one of her flings.

                Even if she is not cheating, she has degraded you in that marriage and is engaging in emotional abuse. Get out. Document all that you have done with and for the children to make sure you get proper custody.

              • Nager, I truly have sympathy for anyone in a sexless marriage. My first marriage was like that — and it’s horrible to be with someone who is so withholding. And I understand the desire to strike back and/or feel desirable. But staying in that situation — and cheating — keeps you locked in the dysfunction. You’re trying to convince yourself there is some “middle path” that you deserve to take. There isn’t. There’s only hard choices.

                As Dat said, don’t throw away your integrity. What your kids think of you matters. Divorce is hard on everyone, no lie. But if you conduct yourself honestly, fairly, and live an authentic life, you’ve got nothing to be ashamed of. If you tried to save the marriage and your wife isn’t an honest broker trying there with you — please move forward without her. There really is a good life on the other side of a bad relationship.

                Affairs aren’t the answer. They’re just making a terrible situation infinitely worse. Whatever your resentments about your wife, she’s the mother of your kids and your spouse. She deserves to be left honestly, and not have her health risked, or be humiliated with an affair. (No matter how much you think she might “deserve” it.)

                I’d say the same to any chump considering a revenge affair. Don’t. This isn’t your best self.

                I’m glad you’re seeing a lawyer. Good luck.

              • Nager: I can’t really add anything to these spot-on comments. If you’re going to make the move to see a lawyer and get your life back, then I guess you’re not a troll after all. So, I just wanted to apologize.

                Also, while you may not have liked the choice of words regarding the contents of your wife’s purse, I would ask that you look past the specific words and know every Chump here had to find every bit of backbone and courage they could in order to escape the abuse of infidelity. If you want to live authentically, you need to find that courage too. Good luck to you.

              • Nager

                You described all the complaints of my X. All the things I did naturally he had to learn. He also complained about paying the bills while spending his money on himself. He hated it when I went out with friends or watched a tv show. Yet he had major issues with intamacy. I wanted my X to have both feet in the door but he was always looking. It sounds like your looking or perhaps this control you desire without success is related to a lack of problem solving abilities. X always solved his problems with porn, whores, alcohol, pot, and tireless negativity. What do you see when you look in the mirror. This is what I asked the X when he left me for a casino whore. He sees a good guy. What do you see?

        • Thank you, Lania, Tempest, Chump Lady, and also thank you for the apology, GettingOverIt. Really appreciate the responses. I probably am getting chumped; I just have no evidence.

          • Firstly – you’re welcome.

            Look for red flags – those are enough to show that you are being disrespected, and thus are more than enough to instigate divorce proceedings – cheating or no cheating. You have more than enough evidence to show that she’s a disrespectful bitch.

            I might be wrong – but red flags usually lead to shitty behaviour almost every single time.
            Red flags such as guarding her phone, being secretive about where shes going or doing, being verbally abusive, withholding affection. I’m sure the other guys here could provide you with more – so much that an entire post could be made about things behaviour-wise which point to a cheater.

            One thing, which is fairly obvious, but needs to be said: NEVER show your hand or evidence to her. It will just serve for her to gaslight and abuse you, and hide her activities further underground – which might work to your detriment in divorce proceedings. You need the upper hand – and it will be a fight made 100x worse if she’s aware of what is going on.

            • Good points here. I think Cheating behavior is putting your own fun first. My ex was elusive, withholding (even with sex at times), absent, disengaged. He was FUN for everyone else though and spent a lot of time away from home. People who choose time away from those responsibilities (kids, spouse, home, time together) usually have another priority. IMHO, Cheaters don’t do responsible because it is work (a blessing to Chumps though, I loved all the “work” especially my kids) and looking back my best red flag is the time my ex chose to spend away from us doing whatever with just anyone else. NNager1, I believe your wife is making poor choices.

          • NNager1, male or female, divorcing an entitled cheater does not favor the chump. The ugly process is just insult to injury on top of the cheating and other neglectful behavior. It’s a horrible experience but one that must be endured. In the end, while you’ll probably be feeling that monetarily you got screwed, the fact is you’re finally free to rebuild your life. An exit affair or a getting even fling, will not make you feel any better.

            Get your ducks in a row. Get a really good lawyer (not just a friend of a friend) and begin strengthening yourself. Figure out how you ended up with such a selfish spouse. Become whole and strong and be a model parent to your kids.

            Later on you may feel differently about recommitting to another woman — but it’s far too early to even consider it right now.

      • I believe 100% you feel this way. But why haven’t you found a marriage counselor? I want to know if you have discussed marriage counseling with your wife? What is the plan if she refuses? Even if she refuses, tell her you are seeking counseling because you want a better marriage. If she is completely against counseling, THAT leads you to the next step… separation and divorce.

        Do NOT try to play the pity card related to having not sex with your wife. Tell her this is a problem for you and your martial emotional connection to her. Find an MC to determine if your marriage is salvageable before you decide to screw random people.

        • I have suggested counseling (a few times), and she has refused. I guess my wife is getting what she wants out of me, and doesn’t have any interest in changing anything because of that.

          I went to a counselor by myself since she wouldn’t go, even though I felt like a dope going alone. I ended up sobbing as I explained my life to the counselor. I felt embarrassed and said so, and she told me I shouldn’t be.

          I can’t run the household and our marriage mostly alone, and it hurts having to look and act strong for so long. Yes, I wanted sex with her and have mentioned that as nicely as I could (I thought I was being honest about a need, not really so much playing a card as a strategy), but really this is about more than that. I’m married, yet alone not just in my bed, but in my life overall.

          • Then, you need to change the dynamic, which will be done with divorce papers.
            Marriage is hard work between two people – and she clearly isn’t pulling her weight. I still think theres a good chance she’s cheating. Sorry. Her behaviour just reeks of the stuff that other chumps have put up with, on here.

          • NNager1 –

            If you leave this “marriage” the only thing that will change in your life, because you sound like you are doing all the work, is there will be one less person. That is it. One less person. Because it sounds like she does not contribute anything to the family other than her presence.

            You are being abused emotionally on a consistent basis. End the abuse.

          • This was my life too as a wife. I put my all into the marriage. I ran it all. But I did not cheat.

          • NN

            You are rare! There are so FEW males who would even suggest marriage counseling never mind going by yourself. So how old are your children and if there’s no evidence if cheating how did you find yourself here?

            Who pays the cell phone bill? You don’t need a password to get a paper bill. Are you employed? Just wondering.

      • This is the standard bullshit argument used by Noel Biderman to justify his Ashley Madison site, and by outsiders to a marriage to whisper, “Ohhhh, he/she must not have been giving up the goods to the partner!! No wonder they cheated.” It’s probably also the rationale of choice for cheaters, “Oh, I’m in a loveless/sexless marriage….(cue sad face).”

        Except it is hardly EVER true. Cheating is about entitlement and the thrill of the seduction. Most chumps were giving it up for their spouse regularly (and if they weren’t, it typically was because their cheater spouse had physical issues, OR stopped having sex with them so as not to be “unfaithful” to their Affair Partner). How my X had the stamina to have sex with me 4 times a week while banging his grad whore for months is beyond me; I can only imagine the deception must have been a major thrill that got his juices going.

        And that, NNager1, is how I know you are a troll–because you come bearing the typical bullshit excuses for cheating that cheaters read about in their Cheater Handbook, that have little to no basis in reality.

          • I’m sorry. But you are not cheating on her because you have integrity (so don’t change that—change your marital status first). However, I strongly suspect she is cheating on you. You will need the help on these pages and past blogs in the coming weeks. Do not stay in any relationship where you are routinely a second-class citizen.

            Good luck to you; it’s going to hurt, but regaining your self-respect will be worth it.

      • If you loved your wife, you wouldn’t be considering an affair. And if you loved YOURSELF, you wouldn’t lower your standards to do something as bad as adultery. And if you loved your KIDS you would work hard to work out the problems with your wife.. such as suggesting counseling, getting help from clergy, etc. And if that didn’t work, you’d file for divorce, give her a fair settlement.. with which she could take care of your kids.. and gracefully move on.

        Fucking other people when married is Never okay. Why is this so hard?

          • Because cheaters want cake. They either prefer having both, or if they really are in “terrible” relationships, it’s not so bad they won’t keep extracting value from it. They’re cowardly. I don’t know how anyone can sustain cake eating. I’d think getting to this point would make you exit the relationship.

      • NNager1 – Have you read some of the other posts, I believe you might benefit from reading more about Arnold’s comments on other blog entries. Irrespective of gender, the cheating stay at home parent gets the best deal in a divorce.

        Instead of giving up your integrity by becoming an adulterer, I would suggest that you tell your wife to get at least a part-time job if she currently is a stay at home mom. Also require therapy so you can both work through your differences for 6 months. This is a non-negotiable deal.

        While you are in therapy, get all the documentation you can about her financial transactions, phone calls, texting and any other activities of your wife. If you have a gut feeling that cheating is a possibility, trust your gut and hire a PI to get more evidence that if needed can be used in court to get more time with your kids or lower alimony for her.

        You might be waking up to the fact that you are in a toxic relationship, you might need to end it. I hope you will do what needs to be done in the smartest way possible, by getting data, and by NEVER EVER losing your integrity so you can model what a hard working high integrity father looks like to your kids.

        Best of luck on your journey!

    • Nnager – You have convinced yourself you are ‘entitled’ to an affair because your wife isn’t ‘pulling her weight in the marriage’ and divorce is too expensive…

      If you are willing to BLOW UP your family for an affair ( and trust me – it will fucking explode like you can’t imagine ), why not take concrete, honourable steps that MIGHT risk your marriage (but only might…)?

      By ‘concrete steps’ I mean:

      – Marriage and Individual counselling
      – Honesty with your spouse about your feelings
      – Real changes

      And if that is a non-starter for her, well, you say you are MORE than pulling your weight in all areas – get a good lawyer and stay to the high road and get on with your life, co-parentling with her but not married anymore. BONUS – your integrity and reputation remain intact!

      I mean, whats the danger of taking the honourable path? She says NO and wants a divorce? You aren’t happy anyway and at least this way you know you did right by your kids/family.

      Sure, you CAN go the scumbag route and cheat and get caught and go through a horrible divorce where she hates you and you hate her and the kids suffer and you are another scumbag guy who couldn’t keep it in his pants…. But why?

      • I guess he thinks he won’t get caught, or maybe he thinks if he does get caught he can weasel his way out of it? Idk, but if that’s the case, he does def need to read more on this site.
        Dude, pay attention, this is not going to work out well for you.

      • I’m seeing a lawyer in the near future. I wrote in an earlier message how I attempted the ‘concrete steps’ you mentioned. I’m just really at the end of my rope with her. She hasn’t mentioned divorce, but I’m about to.

        • She hasn’t mentioned divorce because it allows her to have her cake and eat it, too. Ask what you are getting out of this arrangement.

          • Wishing you enormous resolve and strength, Nager. Sounds like you are well and truly being chumped. Welcome to the group nobody wants to be a member of. You will probably find you really like it here. Great people speaking truth to disorder!

            • Thank you very much. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that I have been getting chumped, though I have no actual evidence that she has done that. I suspect not all of the times out with her girlfriends haven’t all been spent with the girlfriends, since if she’s not doing anything with me, there’s a good chance that she is with someone else.

              I’m saddled at work or with the kids when she’s away. When she is home, her phone never ever leaves her side (it’s even in her pajama pants pocket when she sleeps), she’s on it a lot, and I’m not going to get to find out what’s on it since I don’t know her password anyway.

              • There have been useful discussions about ways to track location and communications. GPS, iPhone “Find My Phone” app, useful to see physical location. Cellphone bill to see calls made and received. My PI’s great advice: pay particular attention to calls around significant dates like birthdays, big holidays, dates you were fighting for no reason, immediately before trips.

              • When she sleeps? Not so good. I think you have your answer. I’m sorry, NN, get the phone tracked and find out what’s going on. It can’t be worse than this.

              • NNager1–I apologize for misinterpreting you as a troll (we get them sporadically here, claiming infidelity is no big deal, and I jumped the gun).

                Trust us–your wife is cheating on you. Takes her phone to BED with her? Yup. Why would anyone put their phone in their pajama pocket? To make sure someone else didn’t see her messages). If you are in a state where you can file for cause (infidelity), keep your eyes open and your mouth shut. Run a credit report to see if your wife is hiding funds in a secret bank account or has a secret credit card. Copy all your financial documents, including credit card statements, tax statements for the past 7 years, etc. Put them at work. If you can afford it, hire a PI to get concrete proof of infidelity next time she “goes out with friends.” Go on line to get a list of the phone numbers she is texting or calling and pay to do a reverse look up on the phone numbers. You need as much evidence as you can for a divorce (or to convince yourself if that is what you need to leave).

                Even if you are in a no-fault divorce state, collect that information to influence settlement and custody. I was in a similar situation to you–sporadic emotional abuse for years (though my X kept up physical intimacy because he knew I’d be maximally suspicious if he didn’t). I wish I’d left on the basis of the emotional abuse only. We all deserve/d to be in relationships where we were on equal footing, and treated well. I am in a field where I can say this with confidence: You are not doing your children any favors by staying in a marriage where they see Mom abusing Dad, and Dad just sits by and takes it. Model integrity, model strength–get out of that marriage (whether you have evidence of an affair or not).

                Once you threaten or file for divorce, expect your wife to plead, beg, start behaving well, possibly even initiate lots of physical intimacy. She LOVES the fact that you do all the work in the marriage, giving her time for extracurriculars. She will fight hard to keep the status quo. Just say No. And stay on this site for strength; you’ll need it.

                Buddy, Arnold, Charles–you guys need to chime in here with more tips for NNager1.

        • Your children will be much more proud of a father that says, “fuck this” over “I’ll fuck her”.

  • Here’s my Perelism:

    I REALLY REALLY needed those 72 hours of sheer panic waiting for the results of my STD panel and the potential dreadful news that I would have to have my twins tested for diseases. That panic, that adrenalin rush propelled me into a state of motion I otherwise may have never had the courage

  • To me the most glaring problem with Perel’s argument is that she fails to consider what happens when an affair leads to the illusion (or the reality) of love. She counsels couples to try to “keep the mystery alive” because, in her view, closeness and equality etc. in the home lead to boredom in the bedroom. But I suspect that most affairs are not just about temporary sexual thrills. They are about somehow restimulating or re-igniting the hormones that lead to the “high” one feels during the early stages of courtship. In other words, affairs are (among other things) processes that mimic love, or that lead one to believe that they have found passionate love anew.

    So her whole premise that affairs can be fulfilling sexually — while marriage is fulfilling in other ways — is flawed. Affairs (at least the one I discovered, and I suspect many others) are also counterfeit forms of love that represent the most heinous betrayals possible.

    • Exactly! Where I think some cheaters end up with their schmoopies temporarily, there is a reason those relationships have a poor long term success rate. Affairs are fantasy. They are built on lies and everyone being on their BEST behavior and putting forth skewed views of themselves. Marriage and long term relationships are more honest representations of who we are. Long term partners don’t only see the sparkly, they see the worst of who we are.. at our worst.. when we are sick, getting frustrated while raising children, paying bills, facing family crisis, doing the hard work of the day to day slog of life. Affairs ELIMINATE all that… so how could anyone think that would sustain?

      Again, goes back to character.. only people with an over inflated sense of entitlement and who are let’s face it, quite dim.. could talk themselves into such a fallacy. These people aren’t that deep… which is why they do it.. and why all of us can do a lot better for our lives.

      • ex and his mow are still together. i guess in their case they are in love. she definately has more in common with him then i did, like drinking every night, not paying bills, not having a house or kids to be responsible for. as far as everyday life showing the real ugly and not sparkly, well not for my ex. he is doing what he wants and she is letting him. so she are better and makes him more happier then i ever could.
        sometimes it hurts, and i get jealous. he is driving new trucks and they got new clothes and shoes. they go out and do what they want…while i struggle to fed my boys, put clothes on their backs, work, take care of them and everything else……but then i remind myself that i did not want to live that way anyhow

        • MrsVain

          Why do we always torture ourselves? I have made a conscious choice to make positive statements about myself rather than focusing on the imagined bliss they are enjoying.

          Every time I used negative energy on them I I gave them power. It’s time, MrsVain to stop giving them ANY if your energy. Focus on you. You deserve it!!

          • thanks donna. i try not to give him power. it bothers me that both of them are shitty people and “seem” to be doing well. yes, i know it is not all happiness because i know him. he is never happy but she seems to be ok with that. she really is better for him, she is just like him. neither of them have morals, values or standards. neither of them are bothered by the pain of other people. neither of them have any pride and can sponge off of other people kindness and good heartedness to get what they want.

            it just bugs me that they are donig well and are happy living like that. i constantly have to remind myself that I DID NOT WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY so if it works for them, so be it. if they are happy living in the gutter, so be it. if they are happy having nothing and living without their children (she doesnt have her kids either) then so be it.

            it just sucks that i am struggling and they are off doing well (with the crappy life they both seem to choice). i hate her only because of what she did to my family AFTER he choose her. 100% no contact for me thou, even if i have to remind myself DO. NOT. POKE. THE. SLEEPING. BEAR

            one of these days, i will get ahead and not have to struggle. Life is still good for me and the boys thou. (as i sit here arguing with my 9 year old to do his homework. haha) we are ok. and better off without that type of shit in our lives. the longer he stays with her, the longer he stays and forgets about us.

    • Charles, that is a very good insight. there were some posts on the forum awhile back from tony linking to a reddit about adultery, and I went and looked to see how these cheaters think. the vast majority of them talked endlessly about what they called “NRE”, or new relationship energy, almost like it was a huff from a whipped cream can. It’s not real love, not even close. Real love involves concessions, compromise, something the Must-be-happy-at-all-costs narcissists cannot replicate on any level. You are right, they are shallow to the utmost.

      • Agree here — I read a subReddit about adultery by/for adulterers. The NRE discussion made it sound like crack cocaine — to be sought and enjoyed, but handled with awareness of its ability to overwhelm your reason. I think it is the “hunt and kill” thrill of finding, persuading, and finally bedding a forbidden partner, cleverly getting away with all the lies and subterfuge required to do so. Everything has to be larger than life, massively stimulating, to provide any relief at all from the grey boredom that is life lived within the rules.

    • Charles, excellent point. This reflects my experience, that the sex component of my husband’s affair was a vividly icky and jealousy-inducing aspect of the betrayal, but the part that broke my heart was that he fell in love with her. Even tho it was the most absurdly immature fucktardish infatuation! It was so insulting! But that’s how he showed me who he was. And how I realized that unfortunately he was just not very smart at all. As CL says, Not much to work with there.

  • My cheater isn’t creative enough to come up with double speak. He just says goofy things like “I hear you and I see you but…” I didn’t realize a man who is so brilliant at computer programming could be such an idiot about life. I’m sure he would see Esther as a brilliant spiritualist. He really is that stupid.

  • “The way out of something that should not continue.”

    ..So in other words, an Exit Affair.

    • To add to that, she’s contradicting herself. She says that affairs can supposedly save “dull” marriages or liven up sex, or bring couples closer, yet here she’s going on and on about GETTING OUT. Making things end and escaping oppression. Which sounds a whole awful lot like saying you should use infidelity as a way to get a divorce.

      So what is it Perel? Bringing couples closer or ending “bad” marriages?

  • Ok so, Hark ye ex Mr. Rumblekitty. Broaden your lens or rubberneck at all the sweet bitches within a mile wide radius. Tis the dawn, and lo, she of tight polyester skirt and crunchy hair beckons thee. Use your weapon, your meat wand to pummel a pathway to freedom. Marry harlot of many wrinkles and many chins to appease Facebook society.

    Hark! Hear the sound of an opening in your harem! Quickly, broaden your lens to other bitches in the vicinity, because ex Mr. Rumblekitty cannot function with the oppression of but one vagina! Tis an unfair system. Hurry! To the internet where more pussy awaits! That is better and more righter-est.

  • Why does this fuckwit even exist? My cat is a better writer, and makes more sense. (That’s not saying a lot…)

  • Sigh. So Perel has been working over the crack pipe – again? Her tiresome rhetoric seems to be in the same vein as Hitler’s Big Lie that made it’s debut in Mein Kamph: saying something so audacious that it shocks people to question their own perceptions.
    Drawing parallels between Perel and Hitler’s use of verbal manipulation, and the snarky remark of her implied use of recreational drugs, I would like to submit for your viewing a link regarding Hitler’s “secret” weapon during the Blitzkrieg, which helped with the ultimate downfall of his regime:
    A documentary titled High Hitler.
    Though Perel is not Hitler, As I confessed yesterday, I’m a history nerd – just comparing one delusional person to another.

    • Boudica: Thanks for the link! As another history buff, I’ve tagged the video to watch later today. Fascinating how the “mighty” need to prop themselves up to continue to exert power over people in a vile way.

  • The most fucked up, disordered double speak I can imagine…

    Divorce actually makes kids stronger.

  • My cheater ex was carrying around a copy of her book, “Mating with a chump” 🙂 during a vacation. I read it and could barely get through it. Major eye rolls nearly made me have a seizure. Anyway, she double speaks and word salads. It’s ridiculous. I think a therapist actually recommended this book to my ex – shows what they can know. Honestly, she talks about bravery and cheating…not so Ester. Bravery and leaving a cheater? Yes, now THAT is a far more interesting and helpful conversation.

          • Yup. When I read it I still didn’t think my ex was a cheater…duh. And I have seen it in other therapist’s offices as well. When I do, I go full on into how ridiculous her message is to betrayed spouses. Then, I hand them my copy of CL’s book. THIS is what will help your client, not Esther’s drivel.

      • I really wonder about some therapists – I remember when a former therapist told me that I was being too suffocating when I demanded that he no longer have contact with the married woman who was trying to restart their affair (from before I was in the picture). The therapist said they were *just friends* and how did I know what she meant to him! huh??? Did she not understand that she was sending him emails, texts, and risque photos of herself on a regular basis (I knew something was amiss!)??? With therapists like this!!

        • That sucks. Years on and all healed and having learned from going through it and snarky toward obvious idiocy, I’d be unable to contain a brutal, “Dude, didn’t your parents teach you anything about boundaries since you apparently didn’t cover them in grad school. You did go to grad school, right?”.

    • Bravery and cheating? The two are so antithetical. In what realm would Bernie Madoff be considered “brave”? Is robbing a bank brave? What about compulsive lying? Cheaters obscure the truth, and operate from a position of power. They don’t want a level playing field. They thrive in murky darkness; truth and light are the only thing they really fear. My husband told me once that he was afraid of me. I think he meant that he was afraid of how I would paraphrase his statements in a more direct and truthful way. I guess things didn’t sound as romantical coming from me.

  • You know, you can put it in a cellophane bag, tie it with a ribbon, stick a rose in it, but it is still bullshit.

  • I think she is laughing all the way to the bank. She obviously is a narc, probably sociopathic tendencies too.
    She doesn’t care what she writes or how it looks because no matter what it looks like it gets her kibbles. She likes seeing her dribble in public…makes her feel alive or as close as a narc can get to feeling anything—she probably doesn’t believe in what she writes either, she just found an arena that makes lots of kibble for little effort. She is really disordered, what a freak show…lol!

  • She reminds me of an X-rated version of Dolores Umbridge. I have reread her blurb five times and I still don’t have a clear idea of what she’s saying. Where’s Hermione Granger when you need her?

    • Bwahahaha! So true!
      Could you imagine EP saying ‘Progress for progress’s sake must be discouraged’? I certainly could!

      • Yup! I always fancied myself to be more Hermione than Ron but, really, I am still openmouthed and bewildered after reading any of her drivel.

  • Cheaters cheat for the greater good! For the betterment of humanity. When stbx walked out on us a mutual friend said he was making a mistake. Stbx’s response: “a necessary mistake”

  • I hold advanced degrees, yet I cannot understand this sentence (fragment): [em]Broaden lens and context, a weapon or pathway to freedom to something that needed to stops.[/em]

    My contribution to Perelisms:

    [em]Repressive rotational boundaries preempt creative individual assertiveness and self-actualization. Social conventions inscribed in legal definitions preclude the possibility of individual action based in awareness that exercising one’s own desires or needs despite–or indeed because of–commonly-held perceptions of behavioral expectations often lead to meaningless repetition of ritualized behaviors. The audacity of rebellion forces open the dialectic, reifying the creative drive underlying societal progress.

    Running the stop sign was an act of boldness, of defiance of the meanness of routinized expectations. Too bad about the cyclist…[/em]

    • And apparently my own creative act is forgetting to use instead of []. But HTML should be able to accommodate my personal personhood!!!!

    • “something that needed to stops.[/em] ” That’s Esther. She got a sadz and needs to be sedated (with a 2×4) so she can stops whining about the oppressionhood of marriage.

      • Sedated with a 2×4. Just about sprayed my laptop with my morning tea.
        LMAO thanks to all of you!!!!

    • KB, I would put my money on you for the scrabble win…fucking hilarious.

      Last line tells the tale.

  • I just want to say that in Christian ethics (the Bible) if a person leaves the marriage just to find another lover but hasn’t cheated yet, it is still considered adultery. There are only two biblical reasons to leave a marriage and that is having a spouse who committed adultery or spousal abandonment (ongoing abuse is considered abandonment). Are people who just abandon their families to date/play the field so much better because they didn’t technically cheat? I think they have infidelity in their heart and have strong narcissistic traits still, so why would we give a person who leaves first a pass? The Bible does not give them this pass.

  • “Betrayal is awful but sometimes you need to betray the social order to create something that is better and more right.”

    Gahhhh, such stupidness…..

    This new and better world will be a cluster fuck ..Simple systems, like driving or walking safely & peacefully from point A to B will suffer..Watch us quake and grow nauseous each time we approach a red light or stop sign..Or cross the crosswalk when the light says okay to cross ..

    Coz those who break laws, rules and promises don’t “get in trouble” or suffer life changing consequences for their wrongdoing..

    So we lose the trust in the usefulness of rules…Public trust is shot…

    Each and everybody for themselves..

    How frightening!

  • It is so obvious – I mean, seriously – who would buy that crap, except people who are already cheating, or have cheated? ‘Preaching to the choir’ I believe it’s called…

    Anyone else can see it right? The ‘don’t look too close or think too hard just listen to the fancy wordplay’ form of argument?

    We are talking about a marriage. A relationship willingly entered into by two people. Based upon promises of fidelity, honesty, and mutual love and support. Not a dictatorship. Not an oppressive regime. Just two people becoming partners. A partnership one of the parties can choose to end without the necessity of approval from the other. No need for ‘revolution’ or violence, or betrayal. Just paperwork.

    If you have an affair you are not a freedom fighter. You are a fucking cheater.

  • Jobin, could not have made it clearer and if anyone is confused then just reread the last two lines! Simple, but perfect!

  • Hey now I know why she sounds familiar, my wife used this woman’s writings to justify her affairs. Along with others who told her that anything that makes you happy can’t be wrong, monogamy is evil and only for men, never settle down until your fifty and always keep a lookout for a better man even if your married. No I’m not exaggerating I’ve mentioned this before, my wife actually said and believes those things.

    I want to hate Perel for what she does and says but unfortunately there’s a market that’s bought into this hedonistic viewpoint. I consider myself a pretty free thinking liberal guy but I do wonder about society if more people indulge in this me first attitude instead of building healthy long term relationships.

    • Exactly. People who think this way should just not get married, but they are too materialistic, opportunistic, weak, immature, and afraid to be alone with the truth of their vicious inner selves to not abuse others. Way too many crazy narcs on the planet these days. It would be great if along with a blood test prior to marriage there was a narc test so potential chumps could make a more informed decision.

      • WhyNow, these self deluded cheaters convince themselves that “true freedom and Twu wuv” are the answer to their so-called unhappiness, but by engaging in adulterous affairs the end result is quite the opposite! My Ex has probably realized that by now. Is he free from his long term marriage? Hell no! He not only lost his wealth to me as a consequence of his actions, but he has to pay me alimony forever each month! He now HAS to work long after retirement age! Is he screaming about that “cage” he willingly placed himself in? I certainly hope so! His whole family rejects and shuns him! Will he someday die alone or with some shallow wrinkly Schmoopie waiting for him to draw his last breath so she can move on to the next “exciting and thrilling” sexual adventure? Yep! But in reality he’ll just die and no one will give a damn! The fantasies they create with these other demented cheaters rarely comes to fruition! They are fools, but more importantly, they are NOT our problem anymore! Personally I don’t want to be associated with a person who is so self delusional. They have not one ounce of common sense in their pea brains and they are doomed! Don’t go down the rabbit hole with them! There is no bottom, it’s an empty black abyss. The good news is we are free to grow and love again. Them…..Not so much. Really, not at all! They are caught in their own trap!

        • Yep my wife somehow thinks she’s won in our separation until divorce. I have all three of our kids even my step daughter who I raised wants to live with me. She knows I’m not her bio dad and doesn’t care because she is my daughter no matter the DNA but the wife tries to use this as a wedge between us. My wife hardly sees them except on Sundays when she takes them out to eat. This gives her all the time in the world to party and screw around like she’s in college again. Unfortunately she’s pushing forty and her partying is starting to show. She lives on her friends couch and her job has zero chance for advancement at this point.

          Somehow I lost because I got “stuck” raising three children that I love and adore. We live in a condo that’s almost paid off. I love my job and I’m making more money than ever. The only debt I have is my truck no student loans. And I’m only thirty two years old. Yep I really lost out no woman will every want to date me. LOL

          • Fiddler, it’s refreshing to see you are looking at the glass half full. Heck, actually got cup is running over with all you have gained and then you add your freedom to that and it’s perfect! Sounds like you value the right things in life while our Ex’s chase that proverbial blue bird of happiness! I repeat, they are caught in a trap of their own making. A eternal Hell they will never escape. We are the winners, the champions! So she’s pushing 40 and still partying like a college kid? WOW! No comment required on that one. We all know what she’s going to look like in a couple of years. Congrats on your beautiful life! We dodged some pretty ugly bullets there!

            • Thanks Roberta.

              It wasn’t easy to get to where I’m at but I am at peace. It was painful knowing of all the men she cheated on me with. But like you said I realized that ended up with all the important things. And I also figured out I’m still in my prime and thanks to her in the best shape since I was in my early twenties.

              All the warning signs with my wife were there but I was to young to notice. We met when I interned at where she worked when I was nineteen and she was twenty five. That should have been a red flag. The others were she partied as hard as I did constantly. Even after college when I started working full time and settled down a bit she was still drinking like we used too. And the pattern continued once we had children.

              • TheFiddler

                When I started dating the X we were young. We dated for 6 years befor getting married. At some point I believe we mature and they are stuck in adolescence. I thought I was dealing with alcoholism and it was a deal breaker. Little did I know there were so many other issues. X is still living ole a teenager reportedly. One word comes to mind when their preference is younger- prey.

  • I have mulled this Perel thing over, and per George Orwell’s essay, “Politics and the English Language”, I think the reason it makes no sense is because if you try to strip it down to plan English, there is no “there” there.

    It’s a bunch of strung together phrases meant to convince people she is smarter than she is, and I am not sure what else other than trying to say something like “don’t get butt hurt cuz your spouse drained your accounts, tried to hire a hit man, and took off to Belize after wrecking your car cuz Freedom”.

  • Word salad shit. That’s all it is. She sounds like one of them astrologer types, as if shes trying to tell someone’s fortune through a horoscope. “Widen your horizons, dear Leo, for today is a day of magic where money may be in your favour!”

    In fact – you see it a lot of the time. People saying “(insert bad thing here) is bad/awful/etc BUT (insert justification for said bad thing here, then add more double speak to confuse and obfusicate)” In fact – if I see that said or written by anyone, I just zone out and ignore the rest of what they say, because its all just a crock of shit.

    • Lania, that’s so true. I have observed that you can tell a lot about someone by the placement of the word “but” in the juxtaposition of the two negatives… infidelity / other bad thing … e.g. “cheating is wrong BUT their marriage must have been bad.” vs. “their marriage must have been bad, BUT cheating wasn’t the way to rectify that.”

      • Exactly. Its a red flag to me, in fact. Tells you a lot about someone’s behaviour or mindset.

        • Language experts say to disregard anything said before the “but”. It is a smoke screen. How people really feel is after “but”. Read her first sentence again without that section.

  • Um CL, I am having a hard time with this homework?

    Srsly I cannot come up with any doublespeak. I have been racking my brain all day trying to come up with something that could stand up there with broaden lens and context weapons? pathways …stopses? sigh. I can’t even remember it long enough to retype it

  • I think that is the hardest thing for mw too. That he fell in love with her. I know she started out as nothing but an ear and a duck bit when I decided not to fight for him again, he stayed with her and now is on love with her. Doing things for her that he used to do for me, and putting her first. Even before his kids. Everything I say now is wrong.

    I can’t believe that she is what he wants. She is not a good person. she left her own husband but hasn’t divorced him. hshe left her own kids and doesn’t take care of them but she “visits” them evey 4 months or so. she doesn’t have a job, she has her hand out for money and everything else she needs. she uses people goodness and kindness for her shelter, food, showers, rides, etc…. how is that a good woman? she interferrs with his visits with his boys, she refuses to let him be in the same room as I am, she is insecure and immature. but she is who he choose in the end. of course she lets him drink. hell she drinks with him. she definitely is not worried about his health in the long room. she makes him happy and makes him feel better about his crappy decisions and actions. while I was trying to get him to see that he was fucking up. to better himself. *sigh* but I didn’t treat him right….whatever the fuck that means.

    now he loves her. I actually see them staying together forever. they have so much in common. But he showed me who he really was, and that is NOT how I want to live. part of me hurts but part of me is almost glad he is with her because she keeps him away from me. she keeps him away from my kids and keeps him feeling good about doing so too. as long as she is distracting him, then he will not come to me with all that craziness. my boys deserve better and so do I. but ya, it still hurts. I hate being alone and I know I will never find someone who believes like I do, with the same morals, values, standards and desires that I want out of life. so I struggle every day. alone. not being able to make my dreams come true but at least I am not being lied to, cheated on, betrayed, gaslighted and made to think I am crazy. I live a true authentic life now. just waiting for the happiness and better part to come along

    • I hear you mrsvain, I’m def a glass-half full kind of person, so as sucky as this all is, I am starting to see the silver lining now that he is gone. Hoping for brighter days ahead


    • MrsVain & Arlo, Happiness is inside of you. You just need to find it again. Do things that make you happy. You’ll find it in time. The longer you’re away from disorder the better you’ll feel. It does take time. Best wishes & (((hugs))) for your journey.

  • Mrs. Vain, I feel the same way at times about my Ex and his Schmoopie, but remember, he did not respect you, he did not respect and does not value his kids, he did not respect your marriage vows! And the saddest part to tell you is this, he has no real respect for himself nor does he value his own health, reputation or the legacy he leaves! Like I told my Ex…..You sold yourself cheap to the first willing whore who would lay down with you. Another cheating spouse who had no respect for her family or herself! I personally pity them. They are the kind of people that we decent folks give a wide berth. They are common trash! It’s a shame, but how can you care for someone who cares so little for themselves?
    They deserve each other and all the misery they can create and I assure you that they are acutely aware of the fact that the POS they are shacked up with is the best they can get now! Water seeks it’s own level and these two streams of sewer water found each other. Walk away from the stench and go breathe fresher air. I guarantee you it won’t last in the long run for these two. They rarely do.

    • very true and well said. i do not want to be with a man who can throw away his wife and children for another mans wife. i could never take him back now that i know he has falling in love with her and that he allows her to come in between his own flesh and blood children.

      his loss. i just cant wait until the day he realizes that it was a loss and he cant get it back. but it is not like i am holding my breathe for that day to come. life goes on.

  • Roberta I was speaking with my sister the other day about my ex and I said that “water seeks it’s own level” and that ex had found his in the gutters of Phnom Penh with the 23 year old prostitute he is now with. She agreed that there is nowhere for him to go now as he has hit rock bottom but he genuinely believes he is in heaven. You would think that at 63 years he would stop thinking with his penis but it isn’t going to happen sadly.

    • Thats because he can’t appreciate anything more than pure shit, Maree. Scum like him are all the same.
      You smell shit – he smells roses. Sucks for him though – its very, very likely he’s gotten one or multiple STD’s from his whore, a death sentence in that.

    • Maree, I suspect these fools are so sure they’ve found nirvana when they make these irreversible decisions to upend their lives and the lives of their families that even if they do have an epiphany and realize what a mistake they have made their pride won’t let them admit it! That would mean they would have to admit how wrong they were and how cruel they were to their families. They would have to admit they weren’t “in love”, but just chasing strange to satisfy their sexual avarice! These are ego driven, entitled types who can’t admit they EVER made a mistake! I personally hope my Ex is miserable with his choice and I’m pretty sure he is. Lust does wane soon enough. Great part is, it’s not our problem! Let them lay in the bed they made! That’s punishment enough! They can’t admit to themselves or anyone what shallow lowlifes they are. What they don’t realize is that everyone already knows because of the poor choices they have already made!

      • And remember, a cheaters definition of Love is different. It becomes subjective and only applies to their agenda. I’m fairly certain that these assholes have no idea what Love truly is at all! It’s whatever floats their boat and gives them goose pimples and butterflies! They are after all idiots! Long enduring Agape love isn’t their cup of tea. They want the Eros Cupid romance kind of fleeting feelings and love! It just “feels” good at the moment, but it’s not real at all!

      • They can’t admit to themselves or anyone what shallow lowlifes they are.

        Exactly, Roberta, your comments are so true, they think they are (continuing) to fool everyone, lost in their own strange little world. It’s sick and pitiful.

    • Hi Lania and Roberta. I always appreciate your very supportive comments, thank you. I know like most chumps we feel very alone and isolated on this awful journey because I know I certainly have, particularly without contact with my kids. I bumped into 2 girlfriends I have known for 20 years and haven’t seen for about 10 years. Without realising it I had actually started to withdraw from life because of how I was being treated by the ex. Long story short, they knew something was wrong and have been trying to locate me ever since we lost contact. The girls, my ex (who was a senior manager) and me all worked for the same company and they are thoroughly disgusted with what he has done, is doing and they are very disappointed in my kids because they know what a good mother I am and how much I loved my kids. They both made the comment that they knew something was amiss with the ex because he was a slime and a sleaze but out of respect for me they were respectful and very inclusive but could not understand how he had such a great wife. They are getting our old work team together for a Christmas celebration in November with me as the guest of honour. They will not say anything about the ex and if I want to divulge his extra curricular activities that will be my call. My life doesn’t feel nearly as bleak now knowing that people actually do care about me. Funny how things turn out in life on the off chance of bumping into people.

      • See Maree, you were the true star of your marriage! Those women validated YOU and your wonderful personality and let you know that your Ex creeped them out! My own in-laws told me that they came to visit to see ME, not their own brother because they couldn’t stand the way he treated people including them! They now have little or no reason to associate with him and they are happy with that decision. It’s just so great that you have been able to reconnect with old friends! Have fun, start living it up! You get one life, make it count!

      • Yeah, its a small world, right?
        Personally – if the opportunity arises, I’d tell them what happened. Of course – it depends how many of those people would have your back, or if one/a number of them would start victim-blaming. But it sure as hell would sort out the deserving types from the undeserving in one foul swoop!

        I think the main reason why you’re feeling so down, is because a good proportion of your life (fuckwit ex, 2 kids) are all entitled fuckers with serious personality disorders. And you’ve somehow ‘normalised’ this, despite knowing in your heart that theres far better than shit out there. Its essentially a form of PTSD in a way, because you’ve had to deal with the continued shitstorm which is these clowns trying to make out you’re the disordered one.

        There are people out there, not on Chump Nation, who validate that your fuckwit ex and the two selfish bastards who share 50% of your DNA – are exactly that – fuckwits. And anyone who even tries to mention otherwise should be cast aside.

  • I studied English Lit in undergrad. In a lot of ways, I write for a living. I have a Masters degree and multiple post-graduate professional certifications. I can find no way to string Perel’s quoted statements into anything even closely resembling a coherent narrative that stands up to logic.

    I also work in the alcohol media business. Being in that business, I receive a “healthy” amount (in the thousands) of alcohol product samples.

    If I drank *ALL* of those samples, I would still not be able to understand Perel’s above quotes.

    Sorry, but that lady’s infidelity diatribes are just bat-shit crazy. I suspect that this is due to the fact that there is no logical moral justification for adultery, and no reputable psychologists disagree with that, so any attempt at trying to come up with turns into a heaping bowl of bat-shit crazy word salad.

    • To heck with trying to string her sentences into a narrative; just try diagramming one. Esther either supports the Critical Period Hypothesis–that syntax cannot be acquired sufficiently if one learns a language after puberty, OR perhaps !! Chomsky was wrong and not all humans HAVE a grammar module. Esther could be used to turn linguistic theory on its head (or is that what happened to her as a child)?

      So many theoretical questions….so little time….

      • Thats bullshit though – one CAN learn a new language after puberty. I’m testament to that, in fact. If she believes that garbage – then it says spades about her stupidity.
        But then again – EP is speaking a foreign language, one with a single speaker only, and no amount of drugs or alcohol will untangle that ball of fuckedupness! This is one language that needs to become extinct!

  • Sephage, the garbage she tries to pedal will always be garbage! Fact is, you can’t make a “wrong” right! Adultery is wrong and no matter how you try to spin it adultery will always be wrong! It’s not ever going to be socially acceptable. You can’t spin drunk driving and make it acceptable either or murder or robbery or stealing! Right is right and wrong is wrong and no amount of word salad or spin will change that! Adultery and all the above listed crimes affect more than one or two peoples lives. It ruins families and has a far reaching affect on those it touches! You can’t “fix” things like that with a few weak words strung together! It’s nonsense! These people want to buck the system, but the rules on adultery have been in place for good reason for a long time and I’m not going to excuse anyone, including her, just because she has a few self serving followers! It’s BS!

    • Roberta – yep!

      For me, it came down to this:

      Perel seems to be saying that betrayal is terrible, but that everyone who betrays must be in some strange invisible cage with no other options. However, that is almost always not true in First World countries.

      My STBXW wanted to play the “you kept me in invisible chains and won’t let me go!” card after I outed her cheating. Sorry, but if you are a college-educated Caucasian between the ages of 27 and 70 (and are physically attractive, to boot) living near a major metropolitan area in the Mid-Atlantic U.S., there is no one – NO ONE – holding you down. In that circumstance, if you don’t like where you are, it’s almost certainly because YOU made shitty choices that got you there. Everything else is, essentially, word salad. Some people genuinely have it hard – my STBXW was NOT one of those people.

      Cheaters: want to blame someone? Find the nearest mirror.

  • Amen, Sephage! Cheaters have to blame someone, anyone for the poor choices they made! My marriage was nearly 41 years long and I NEVER heard him utter a word about unhappiness until he was presented with the opportunity to have no strings attached sex with Schmoopie! All these people are just kidding themselves! They are just crummy people who have no ability to control their poor impulses! They are full of crap and deep down they know it, but they’ll continue to use excuses for their own piss poor behavior! I just have no use for an individual who cannot control their “primal” needs and cannot own their own mistakes! They are just two year olds in large bodies! To Hell with them! Let them suffer the consequences of their choices! I’m free!

  • ‘Tis the old, “If we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.”

  • My exh was to my kids: do you know how hard it is to asks role for a divorce?

    Except I had brought up separating due to a serious health issue, he became incredibly angry and said we will get through this together. Plus all the cards I got from him we telling me he was the luckiest guy in the world ….

    3 years after discovering his infidelity I am happier.

  • So Chump Lady asked us for examples of double speak. So I googled it and found an interesting quote at

    ‘Here’s a list of twenty business euphemisms and what they really mean. According to the firm that compiled them, Audit Integrity, the more you hear, the more likely a company is a governance risk.’

    I think the same could be said for relationships, the more we hear this stuff, the more likely the person is a governance risk!

  • I like the crime dramas, Blue Bloods being one of my favorites – its portrayal of Sunday dinner, with four generations of family is my adopted imaginary family. It’s that old fashioned piece of hearth and home that captures my heart.

    Quite the contrast to the American reality genre trend; bachelor, bachelorette, housewives of America, and (drum roll) Wife Swap. Ash Mad feeds off of this trendy cultural train-wreck. -Something very awry with treating love and commitment as a competition, as a bitch-fest, as interchangeable. There’s a fortune being made off of the twisting of modern psychology, off of the “ME” generation and its offspring….

    • Yeah. Same shit here in Oz. In fact, I barely watch TV because of this rampant bullshit – and if anyone in my life mentions this trash, I leave the room.
      Someone asked me my opinion on that bachelor shit a while ago, to which I responded “A couple dozen women engaged in a pick-me dance for a guy whos not even a prize anyway? Or to score 10 minutes of fame because they are a narcissistic fuckwit? Why would you want to even know about that garbage?” They shut up after that.

  • Yeah..Betray social order. Tonight. Saturday night of Labor Day weekend. He has been so sorry. so innocent of all the rumors and false accusations. Dropping me off food, money, cause he loves me so much. on landing before my floor, his pocket/phone lights up. no sound, just flash. he pulls it out. I grab it. we fight for it. food is all on steps. he gets phone and runs downstairs. five minutes later, texts me. what is wrong with me? of course I can trust him. on WEDNEDSAY or THURSDAY I can check phone..yeah. techs on vaca till tuesday, me stupid. him so smart.

    • Arene40, that was priceless. I hope you re holding up OK and you have a good lawyer. Fuck his phone, kick his ass out of your I’ve, you are mighty! Jedi hugs if you need them! Go Jedi ninja on his sorry ass!

  • Well Arene 40R, first off, big hugs from Chump Nation! Second, you are well aware of what’s going on. I’m so sorry! We’ve all been down this terrible path and it’s hard and it’s tough, but not impossible! Please read everything you can here on CL. We’re here for you. It will save your sanity. Promise!

  • The non-Stalin quote always leads me back to this excellent short poem by Randall Jarrell. Guess we’re the eggs for Esther Perel’s omelette.

    A WAR
    There set out slowly, for a Different World,
    At four, on winter mornings, different legs …
    You can’t break eggs without making an omelette
    –That’s what they tell the eggs

  • Cheater’s whiny reply when caught red-handed and outed:

    “Why can’t I have a friend?” The answer: Having friends is fine. I have plenty. I just don’t have sex with them while married to someone else.

  • “I’m going to downsize and rent a studio. You can sleep there”.

    “The reason I left was because she never really forgave me for cheating”.

    “The computer screen froze on a child porn site and in order to remove it they want money, what should I do. I must have pushed the wrong thing”

    “Married but on our own”

    “I will never get anywhere with you. She spends money on me and she doesn’t even make that much”.

    “No one will ever want you the way you are”.

    Doublespeak always has the impact of making your head spin. The first statement was made when he had already secured a basement living space in my daughters home. I might add another one here. “Can I move in with you we aren’t getting along”.

    The second one he said to my other daughter who recalls going to the OW houses as a young child with X.

    The porn – I still didn’t believe he intentionally accessed child porn. My therapist didn’t agree.

    My favorite was the poem he wrote the whore. Yup, it’s a thrill alright.

    It’s amazing how much they depend on US. X finally has to pay his own taxes I paid since we were married. No she doesn’t make that much money AND buys him pub fries. Lol.

    No one would want me the way I was. The damage from his abuse left me shattered. I chose gaining a life.

    When I hear someone complaining about their spouse and it is followed by thoughts of having an affair I believe this us doublespeak also. In all the years of tollersting abuse this NEVER crossed my mind as an answer. Most chumps would agree. We don’t use betrayal as a way out, cheaters do. When we call them on it the back pedaling begins. A taller tsle emerges. This I see as a cheater perfecting his:her narrative. It’s what they do to sell themselves.

  • Donna,

    Sorry you made the club and welcome to the other side.

    Thank you for a your story.

  • Laughed so hard. I went through some of my journals from 2013… I found some doublespeak… only regret: yearning. I regret yearning for a man. I now consider myself a depository for all human energy: let “the rivers of the earth flow unto me”… I have found power in small doses of “hope” aka “testosterone”… happy enough with “aldosterone”… the adrenaline semi-equivalent… induced by laughter/excitement and found in the smurf-like cap of the kidneys… the adrenal glands. thanks to the adreno-cortico-tropic hormone of the anterior pituitary gland (woman nuts) which get info from the hypothalamus, which is encased by the “thalamus” which “reads” the blood to determine needs *(negative feedback system)*

    love yall!