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Where’s Esther?

EstherAs this Ashley Madison hack has unfolded over the last couple months, I’ve begun to wonder, “Where is Esther Perel?”

Surely this is the biggest Infidelity News Story of the last year? Decade even? It’s huge! Millions of Ashley Madison users on Quests for Aliveness, committing Exuberance Acts of Defiance (in secret, with credit cards their spouses don’t know about… it’s a clandestine kind of defiance, but I digress…) busted! — where is she?

On her blog? Nope, July and August are looking mighty thin there. (Except for the live tweet event you missed on August 4. Drat.) It produced this awesome nugget of narcissism:

“Ours is an era where we feel we deserve to satisfy our desires. Selfishness is in.”

Does Esther promote selfishness? No! Narcissism is just one of today’s fashion trends, like rompers. Is Esther promoting rompers (or romps)? She’s simply saying, “You wear it well.” You narcissistic, vapid, shape-shifters — you’re IN! Pay no attention to those judgmental moralistic fuddy-duddies in mom jeans. You’re cool.

Of course, August 4 was before the big data dump.  The job losses. The blackmail. The suicides.

Esther, I would’ve thought you’d be all over this. Shaming the hackers for their vigilante moralism. (Then again, maybe for the hackers hacking was an exuberant act of defiance that made them feel more alive. If it resulted in the humiliation of millions, hey, selfishness is in.)

Where are you, Esther?

Here she is in 2014 giving the nod to the Japanese, noting how popular Ashley Madison is there.

Oh there she is, on Facebook, demurring to comment personally on the Ashley Madison hack. But endorsing another article. (Wouldn’t want to get your hands dirty on this one, case you need to play it both ways.)

A lot of you have been asking about my opinion on the recent ‪#‎AshleyMadisonHack‬, although I have not myself written a deep dive into the issue, I find that this article written by Glenn Greenwald for the The Intercept expresses my sentiments well.

What is your take on this data dump? On Ashley Madison as a website? Interested in hearing your opinions.

Are you really interested in the ravings of the Puritanically Gleeful, Esther?

Let’s put a little of Glenn through the Universal Bullshit Translator.

It’s hard to overstate the devastation to some people’s lives from having their names published as part of this hack: not only to their relationships with their spouses and children but to their careers, reputations, and — depending on where they live — possibly their liberty or even life. What appears on the Internet is permanent and inescapable. All of the people whose names appear in this database will now be permanently branded with a digital “A.” Whether they actually did what they are accused of will be irrelevant: Digital lynch mobs offer no due process or appeals. And it seems certain that many of the people whose lives are harmed, or ruined, by this hack will have been guilty of nothing.

How about the people devastated by infidelity? Where is the hand-wringing for them? It’s okay to promote cheating (the rest of the article does exactly that, and quotes Dan Savage as it being the Least Worst Option, because of course, divorce is unthinkable), but OMG, if it’s discovered, then it’s DEVASTATING for…. the cheater?

It’s humiliating to be exposed like that?

Yeah, you know what else is humiliating? Being cheated on. Having your feet up in stirrups for an STD test after years of presumed monogamy. Catching an STD. Having to reveal the STD to your new partner after you ditch the cheater. Oh hey, you know what else is humiliating? Paternity testing your children. Learning that friends and acquaintances knew you were being chumped and never told you. Finding your money missing and spent on affairs. Being gaslighted and told you’re crazy.

But when the people who do that shit get outed? WOE! The poor things.

This is just another argument for It’s Not What I Did, It’s Your Reaction To It.

But! But! They may be falsely accused. That’s true. I’m sure there are tens of thousands of fembots who really didn’t want to fuck the users they were so relentlessly pinging. And yes, there maybe the curious out there and cyber crime is never okay. Yep.

But really, you’re going to claim bafflement at why people dislike cheaters and don’t feel great swells of pity for them? Seriously?

But whatever else is true, adultery is a private matter between the adulterer and his or her spouse. Except in the most unusual cases — such as a politician hypocritically launching morality crusades against others — it’s most definitely not any of your business. None of us should want (ironically) anonymous hackers serving as vigilante morality police by exposing the private sexual acts of other adults. Nor should any of us cheer when the private lives of ordinary people are indiscriminately invaded, no matter how much voyeuristic arousal or feelings of moral superiority it provides. We love to think of ourselves as so progressive and advanced, yet so often leap at the opportunity to intervene and wallow around in, and sternly pass judgment on, the private sexual choices of other adults.

I agree. No one should cheer when the private lives of ordinary people are invaded.

To that end, Esther (and Glenn), quit excusing cheaters.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
    • It seems to me that CL has intestinal fortitude… some call it a good constitution. I am happy about that. Wouldn’t it be nice if we all had a constitution.

    • CL, thank you for your tireless energy! You are real, you are raw, you tell the truth. Esther Perle, on the other hand, really drives me crazy and in the worst way because she veils her opinions by pseudo validating her work under academic superiority as an “expert,” gives TED talks, is a researcher, etc. But at the end of the day, her message is one of the worst because it is wishy washy (allowing for ‘hey, whatever will be will be’), in reality condones infidelity, and worst, she has no regard whatsoever for the pain and devastation infidelity causes. My hunch is that she is a cheater and her spinning of infidelity from an academic perspective is ultra damaging, imo.

  • Let’s add to Glenn Greenwald’s Universal Bullshit:
    “But whatever else is true, adultery is a private matter between the adulterer and his or her spouse.”

    My turn:
    -Bank robbery is a private matter between the robber and the bank.
    -Rape is a private matter between the victim and the rapist.
    -Child Abuse is a private matter between a parent and the child.
    -Necrophila is a private matter between an undertaker and the corpse.
    -Sexual harassment is a private matter between a professor and a student.
    -Setting a cheater on fire is a private matter between the cheater and his/her incensed spouse.

    Anyone else want a turn?

      • Yeah – the “marriage” was a big production before God, parents, siblings, extended family, friends, co-workers, and whomever, but a douchebag’s adultery? Oh, that’s a private matter?? Bullshit. Marriage is a PUBLIC declaration of intent to be faithful, loyal, and to forsake all others. F-that.

        It would be great if everyone who received our wedding invites now also receive the adultery announcement, or the Ashley Madison announcement (s).

            • Me too. I told everyone and anyone. I wanted the truth to be told for several reasons. I was a chump child and taken on outings with my mother and her AP and it was horrible. I grew up in their secrecy and lies and did not want this for my children (I always knew something was up when I was a kid and craved the truth). Also, Dday came after the divorce and because I was being judged and blamed pretty heavily by his family, I just wanted them to know the real reason for the divorce.

              • Which, by the way, because I only had suspicions and no proof during the marriage, I was doing quite a ‘beat myself up dance’ for the divorce. The proof about the affair actually incited the anger I needed to heal.

        • Ha .Kibblefree .. Sending out adultery announcements !!! Gold
          Of course Adultery is NOT a private matter between the adulterer and spouse BECAUSE THE SPOUSE IS NOT PRIVY TO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! The spouse has no effing idea until the spouse hits DDAY !!!! Adultery is always a private matter between the adulterer and all the partners in crime duh !!!

          • WhereisMia, Nailed this! Funny thing how screwing over your spouse and family is considered a “private matter.” No wonder douchebag solicitated a news article proclaiming to all and sundry that he had ditched his wife of x years to be with his one true love. (Barf!) Apparently he had only stayed in our marriage those twenty+years because of “the children,” and golly he was so “miserable.” If it weren’t so devastating it would be fucking funny.

            • Drew I’m sorry, what a vile thing to say. Nasty man. I expect he’s just as ‘miserable’ elsewhere since he had to take himself with him.

    • Exactly. And how hard is this to understand — “adultery is a private matter between the adulterer and his or her spouse” — THE SPOUSE who is completely in the dark about the private matter that the adulterer hasn’t told them about. What part of deception is wrong don’t they get? Is lying ever justified? Is it “moralistic” therefore “bad” to not want to be lied to and have your financial resources pillaged for years by someone who is lying to you about a “private matter” they didn’t both to tell you about?

      • Not to mention the obvious that while they were cheating on you in the “private matter” with you that they didn’t tell you about, they were publicly pretending to be your loyal spouse, and were also depriving you of an equal and fair opportunity to spend your life with someone else!!

        • “…depriving you of an equal and fair opportunity to spend your life with someone else!!”

          This angers me the most. They are thieves of our time on this planet for their comforts.

          • isnt greenwald edward snowdens biggest fucking fan??? Excuuuuuuuuse me??? Anybody remember just who the fuck glenn hypocrite greenwald IS when it comes to hacking and revealing secrets??

            What. The. Fuck.

            • Or is glenn just advocating STATE secrets being spilled….loss of life, liberty, freedom and all that shit for those harmed by the release of those secrets….he applauded snowden up one side down the other. He was willing to go to fucking PRISON to defend snowdens right to release state secrets.

              Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, glenn. I used to have half an ounce of respect for you…but you probably are on some cheater website for alternative lifestyles….how much you wanna bet.

              • “…adultery is a private matter between the adulterer and his or her spouse”

                I almost blew my lunch salad out of my nose when I read this. By definition, this is not true and is a witting burying of the truth. Adultery is 99% of the time a deception that one spouse keeps secret from the other, a lie to the core that damages the one in the dark. It is not some sacred private reciprocal understanding. The narcissist’s complete disconnect and willful misunderstanding of kindergarten level morality will never cease to amaze me completely .

        • This. So often we’ll see Cheaters say, once they’ve been outed, that their affair is a private matter between them and their spouse. That sounds like commonsense.

          But it’s bullshit.

          The truth, at least from the cheater’s perspective, is that the affair is a private matter for the cheater–as the AP may or may not know the cheater is married.

          When the affair goes public, the cheater’s sparkly image gets tarnished.

          • At one point the HasBeen told me I should’t talk about it since it was a private matter between me and him. All I could say was no, it was a private matter between you and her, it had nothing to do with me until I found out so no, it is not a private matter.

            • I kicked Cheater out of our house on DDay night. A few days later (distraught about his safety because *I am a Chump*) I asked him where he was sleeping at night… he replied, “Because it is a concession to me, that information is private.” UBT translation: “I’m sleeping in OW’s vacant rental property. Because I told her you are an insane maniac, she is afraid that you will come burn the place down or something cray cray like that. Therefore, I will not admit to you that I am sleeping in OW’s vacant rental property. I truly hope she will become my next target to sponge off of, like you have loyally been all these years.”

        • And what about marriage and problems in the marriage, real or imagine, being private? It certainly wasn’t a private matter between husband and wife when the cheater was lamenting the spouse’s laundry list of “faults” to the AP that justified their cheating.

    • I would like to add:
      Syphoning money and cooking the books is a private matter between the embezzler and the honorable, charitable organization he/she withdrew the funds from.
      Human Trafficking is a private matter between the soulless creatures that abduct adults and children for terrible purposes, and the abductees.

  • Also re: Greenwald: I am glad you addressed this. I used to be a huge fan per his involvement in the Snowden affair, I even bought and read his book! But after I saw his reactions to the AM hack I was utterly disgusted in him and his defense of the cheaters and have completely turned my opinion of him.

  • “adultery is a private matter between the adulterer and his or her spouse”… er, no, the spouse is not aware of it, that’s the main problem

  • I swore I was not going to comment on your blog any more. I can’t help it. This AM shit is, well, shitty. 37million people lying through their teeth and yet there are defenders who feel so sorry for them. So, I have been trolling blogs from cheaters, mostly OW. Let me just say narcissism runs ramant in the blogging world. I just read a comment from one who had an affair for over a year with a MM. She said the next time she will be with a man who has her integrity. Huh?!?!! And he has used all the cheater handbook terms. Poor sex life, no happiness etc. and she bought it all and thinks his wife is terrible. So what is she? A paragon of virtue? Just so full of it!

    • Let go–Don’t stop posting!! Your story about your brother is important to tell, and your comments are always helpful.

      • Tnx, Tempest, but all of you are such wonderful supporters for each other. It is a club, a damnable one, that you were forced to belong to. I have cried so many times reading your stories. So this shit coming from cheating excuse makers has me raging. All I can say is that if the blogs I have read written by cheaters are “average” then you guys are so much higher in the evolution chain.

    • Let Go, come on now! You know those silly virtues don’t apply to adulterers! Wow! Just what would these hotel room romps mean if they had to consider being honest, have integrity, empathy, sympathy, guilt??? You are just sucking all the FUN out of having a disgusting, dirty, back street screw with some random girl/guy that you got to know and understands you from the Internet!! Damn, those AM cheaters paid their money, can’t ANYONE be trusted anymore?? Yeah……aren’t these cheaters cute with the double standard and having to believe all the crap some idiot tells them about their so-called “miserable spouse and families!” Yuck! They all suck so much!

    • “She said the next time she will be with a man who has her integrity. ”
      She doesn’t realize she already was.

  • With all the concern about cheaters’ lives being at stake over the data dump, one might think someone would point out that transferring STDs puts the lives of chumps at stake. This happens without their knowledge and against their own choices. Cheaters put their own lives at risk by cheating in those countries…they were just betting they wouldn’t get caught. Not that I advocate the death penalty even for adultery, but I have a hard time pitying those who are perfectly fine risking faithful spouses’ lives by their own poor choices to possibly expose them to STDs. The lack of empathy for those true victims, chumps, is truly appalling.

    • Ok, maybe not the death penalty but I’m all for some jail time, forfeit of assets to the faithful spouse and posting his/her face on a billboard to warn others of his/her lechery. You know who still doesn’t get any justice in this scenario? The children. I hate cheating SO much.

    • I have HPV courtesy of my cheater. I was faithful to him for 21 years of marriage and several years of dating prior. HPV was not around when I met him or married him – never even heard of it until a few years ago when the Gardisil vaccine was introduced. It came from her – or perhaps from another woman before her because I have no way to know now if he was ever faithful to me (funny how finding out your spouse is a cheater rewrites the entire history of your marriage). Thankfully it’s not the strain that causes cervical cancer, but I had to have a VERY painful cervical biopsy as a precaution after the abnormal pap smear caused by the HPV. And I get to put my feet in those stirrups on a yearly basis to see if the HPV has gone away (it sometimes does after several years…or longer…or never). Being married once to a cheater is the gift that keeps on giving…

      • I had the same experience. I had to go in and get HPV biopsies every year for 3 years before this year’s return to normal. Those biopsies are painful and embarrassing! After 30+ years of marriage and no other lovers except XH. And knowing I could have been diagnosed with cervical cancer due to his infidelities. They don’t think of us.

        • Nicole, Meg, Tempest & others – I’m so sorry that you contracted those things from those f-ing moron douchebags. =( I guess I lucked out, or got out, before more damage was done. I noticed that for the last 3-4 years of the “marriage,” I got a yeast infection after sex. EVERY. TIME. I didn’t know what the hell was wrong with me. But for the 19+ years prior to this with him (and only him) nothing.

          I’m wondering if you all can sue those douchebags for the damages, humiliation, and expense of those treatments?? Since you contracted it from them?

      • I got HPV either from my cheater or the narc I dated before him. No guarantees about whether it starts to cause abnormal cells but I take 1500 mcg of folic acid everyday as a precaution (folic acid helps guarantee cells develop normally. Prevents birth defects, too, and may prevent chromosome abnormalities in egg cells. Win-win).

        • Raising hand. He gave me HPV too. After being subject to two painful procedures where slices of my cervix were burned off, I am now HPV free. When I was first diagnosed, and I told him that I had this, he kept the straightest poker face you’d ever seen. You also didn’t stop visiting prostitutes after that. Absolutely fucking amazing to me how important it was for him to get his dick wet outside our home. It boggles my mind, and always will, how are 19 years together meant shit to him, as did I.

          • GiveTimeTime, yep! Getting their dicks wet with ANY availiable snatch is all they seem to care about! They don’t even respect their own health and well being, so how can we expect them to respect their own wives, children, finances, responsibilities, etc..? It seems they are self destructive and it doesn’t bother me now if he does self destruct! What I resent is trying to take me down with him! Now I can leave that to Schmoopie! She hasn’t a clue as to how wasteful and irresponsible this Ex of mine can be, but she wanted him soooo bad! I guess turn about is FairPlay. Now she’ll know what it’s like to be in the dark! Serves her right!

          • Fuckwit gave me HPV too. I was with him since I was 19 years old. I get papa every year and and never had an abnormal one til this year. It’s crazy how aggressive this stuff can be.

            Right now I have severe cervical cell dysplasia, the doctor said “I don’t want to scare you, but it’s a step below cancer”. I have an appointment in 2 weeks to have a LEEP procedure. It’s scary…I’m only 31 but have a long history of cancer in my family. The thought of dying and leaving my 8 & 4 year old for the Fuckwit to raise (er…traumatize) keeps me up at night.

            • See, this makes me crazy. HPV can cause throat cancer and cervical cancer but, hey, I have my “needs”. Cheating is the gift that keeps on giving. My brother’s kids, your kids, your health, your sanity are nothing compared to their needs. There are somewhere between 4% and 6% sociopaths in the world. Add to that the number of narssistists and you are talking millions……..and they love to cheat and lie.
              I have a question totally off the subject of AM, or maybe not. Do you think there is a true sex addiction? Some of the info reads like a genuine addiction but some reads like lying scumbags who have gaslighted their poor spouses into buying it. Long term affairs just don’t sound like SA to me but the Chump is already in so much pain that when I mention this blog I am told to get lost. I absolutely don’t ever want to hurt someone already in mourning but this is too important to keep quiet. Also, Tracy, through your blog, you should be given a humanitarian award for saving people’s sanity.

              • Let Go, search archives, Tracey did a post on sex addiction not all that long ago. I think it’s bullshit, correction, I know it’s bullshit.

              • Sex addiction is not a recognized addiction. It’s not acknowledged in the DSM and there is no accepted treatment for the imaginary addiction\disorder. The only addiction they have is to themselves, and that falls under the recognized diagnosis of narcissism.

              • If someone had ‘sex addiction’ they’d be climbing the walls to have sex with their spouse, be pleased by their spouse, or use their fucking left/right hand and an imagination. Its all just a cheap pathetic excuse, and a crock of shit to those who have shitty impulse control.

            • FreedomFromCrazy–I had the same level dysplasia, same procedure 15 years ago–all went smoothly, I had a healthy pregnancy afterwards, and have had normal tests ever since. You’ll be fine & healthy afterwards (just follow doctor’s orders about taking it easy for 6 weeks after the LEEP).

              • Thanks, Tempest:)

                Wow…I had no idea HPV can cause throat cancer too! My dad died of it 2 years ago at the age of 59.
                It makes me so angry at fuckwit for not giving a flying shit about anything other than his poor excuse for a penis. I wish I could go all Farah Fawcett on him like in the Lifetime classic “The Burning Bed” and be found not guilty.
                A chump can dream…

    • When the Tiger Woods story broke, I told then(nowdead)husband Tiger committed “biohazardous rape” of his wife. She DID NOT CONSENT to be involved with the risky sex he chose to participate in then he injected it into her body.

      By the time I learned H was a serial cheater it was so far after the fact that any diseases I might have gotten from it would have presented themselves already and I seem to have dodged that bullet.

      People who have contracted HIV have sued and won in court, I wonder why not LBSs (Im sure it would be hard to prove though)

    • I’m still confounded by the idea that the AM cheaters expect privacy … they put their sex lives on the internet for crying out loud!

        • Right? Stunning overt sense of entitlement. How dare anyone pass moral judgement on their decision to OPENLY CHEAT ON THE INTERNET … jeesh, what’s wrong with us bitter chumps. Don’t we get it? AM is supposed to be private, sneaky, and fun … they paid good money to skank around and here we go ruining it all by calling them out on their shit. We should be ashamed of ourselves for having a moral code.

        • I was thinking the same thing. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy. It’s not like having your credit card info compromised on a shopping site; you went to the dark side. Cheaters bitching about their infidelity being exposed is like calling the cops because your weed dealer shorted you or the prostitute you picked up stole your wallet.

    • Late to the party. Transmitting STDs to your unsuspecting spouse as a result of cheating, serial, paid sex workers, swinging APs, at the very least needs to be considered Manslaughter. They, the cheaters, made a choice to have sex outside of the marriage. They chose to engage in risky excitement and they chose to deceive their spouses. In my case I was also nursing infants during the time my asshat infected me. We all know that HIV can be transferred from the nursing mother to her baby. Manslaughter.

      Thankfully, my STD is transmitted through direct contact and not a potential death sentence (HPV or HIV). Had I delivered those twins vaginally though, they could have been exposed.

  • ‘We love to think of ourselves as so progressive and advanced, yet so often leap at the opportunity to intervene and wallow around in, and sternly pass judgment on, the private sexual choices of other adults’

    Actually, I am TERRIBLY progressive and advanced! I am the QUEEN of progressive and advanced. I think that whatever sexual activities consenting adults are engaged in is THEIR business, not mine.

    My problem with cheating is that one of the adults involved is NOT consenting, not even informed. Because believe me, when your partner is having sex with somebody else and you don’t know it, YOU are involved in so many ways, not least about your health, finances, family life …..

    So yeah, I’m not interested in who you’re doing. I’m interested when you’re LYING to get there. And I’d love it if everybody on AM wore a red ‘A’ for the rest of their lives. At least we’d see them coming.

      • I second that! I just am astounded by the mental gymnastics these low life’s are able to conjure up out of their sex addled pea brains! I’m just glad my cheater is gone! And yes, he does have a death sentence now….pancreatic cancer! Hope his Schmoopie enjoys everything that’s involved in that package! I’ll probably be vacationing while she is wiping his big ass she was so fond of!!! Ha! Ha! Ha!

  • If only this Ashley Madison hack would turn the tide of “nudge, nudge, wink wink” attitudes about adultry to wake people up to the real pain, humiliation, and devastation cheating causes. Far from being a “private matter” The destruction of marriages and families reverberates through generations. The spouses convinced to stay by the RIC industrial machine often live with false hope that their cheater will be forever faithful now. I know from 38 years experience, that the cheaters usually just get better at their game.

  • The bottom line that Greenwald and others are objecting to is Informed Consent. This is a concept revered in social science research–people must have enough knowledge to agree to participating in some act or event (such as an experiment). It prevents atrocities such as the Tuskegee Experiment, Nazi medical experiments, doctors operating on people or administering drugs without telling them the risks involved in the surgery/medicine. We’re all in favor of that, right?

    Greenwald, Perel, Savage, and their ilk are bothered by the AM hack because it exposes cheaters without their permission–these people (loosely speaking) signed up for an infidelity website on the promise that it would be confidential, and now their private data is being displayed all over the internet. What these self-centered ignoramuses miss is that cheating itself violates Informed Consent–one spouse gets to deceive the other, expose them to medical and emotional and financial hazards, without either consent or knowledge of the chump. Cheater apologists lamenting the AM hack dump want to talk out both sides of their mouth. My advice to them: STFU.

    • Informed consent exists in the healthcare industry too. In many states it’s considered illegal to do any type of genetic testing without the “informed consent” of the patient.

      Cheaters do not get informed consent. They enjoy cake. They play both sides until they come to their own conclusion about which partner they would like to take advantage of next.

      Cheating is only between the adulterer and their partner when the faithful partner finds out about the affair and not a moment sooner. What a load of crap!

  • Hmm. Let’s see…

    “Ours is an era where we feel we deserve to satisfy our desires. Selfishness is in.”

    Well dear Esther, If selfishness is “in”, then don’t the CHUMPS get to be ‘selfish’ too?

    Is it ‘selfish’ of a chump to want his/her spouse FOR HIM/HER SELF with no outside interferences? Pay no attention to those VOWS they both took…toward EACH OTHER. They were just flowery words one might find in some boring novel. The words mean nothing, kind of like, the Boy Scout ‘Promises’ or the Pledge of Allegiance…or the Lord’s Prayer. They’re just WORDS.


    Now, if the tides were turned, and the chump-er became the chump-ee, you can bet your sweet a$$ that Esther and the rest of the adulterers would be singing a completely different tune.

    Yes, selfishness is “in” as long as it suits THEM.

    • Zackly, Gypsy.

      I am SO selfish for wanting for my ex to pay for HALF the therapy his behaviour and defiant exuberance have caused out daughter to need.

      And how dare I ask for more than HALF our property, when I am raising our kid single handed but for summer vacation (three whole weeks).


  • In my experience, Glenn’s statement that others’ adultery is “most definitely not any of your business” rang true for my cheater and her support network. They simply focused on the fact that the we “grew apart” or some other such vague reasons for the end of the marriage…instead of the most obvious one.

    After I filed for divorce, my ex kept seeing her AP through his engagement and brief marriage. Their relationship has now been going on for more than 2 years, and I’d assume he’s been integrated into my ex-wife’s life. So, at this point, I’d have to say that Glenn’s approach is how my cheater’s infidelity played out. My ex’s support network said “not my business” and continued to be her loving family and friends, despite her obvious deep character flaws (as well as the deep character flaws of her AP).

    This is another argument AGAINST exposure. As much as I’d like to see some cheaters get their comeuppance from the AM hack, more often than not nothing is going to happen. Yes, here and there, a few will be (and have been) shamed. But the whole premise of CL’s blog is that cheating is taken too lightly by society, which generally prefers to avoid uncomfortable situations or asking and answering straightforward questions. It’s easy and stupid and false to think of cheating as a “mistake.” It’s difficult and smart and correct to think of cheating as abusive. Society generally prefers the former.

    • Oh, but come on JC. I take cheating lightly — I make fun of cheaters! Stupid Shit Cheaters Say is a deep vein of narcissistic pomposity. And hey, I *draw cartoons.*

      • JC…your comment about “mistake.” For my son’s birthday, my husband gave him a card that I happened to find in the backseat of the car. It read, “I am so proud of the man you’re becoming. I am not perfect. I have made mistakes. Always be happy.” Most would find those sentiments very touching and appropriate. But oh contraire. His cheating was abuse of me, our marriage and our family. Furthermore, considering that his excuse for leaving was “I was not happy,” he was justifying to our son that you can “make mistakes” as long as you’re happy. What a tool. Father of the freakin’ year.

    • Ah yes, the ole “we grew apart” excuse. As if that is a reason to cheat.

      All kids of reasons married people drift apart… demanding jobs/careers… these little people we bring into the world that need all sorts of things.. who get stomach flus at 2am, who get sick when you have a big presentation at work, that need school supplies, soccer cleats, to be driven here/there/everywhere for activities… then there is the usual stress of life, bills, retirement planning, family trips, in laws, holidays. ALL MARRIED PEOPLE deal with this. It doesn’t make any of us special.

      Are there ways to fix a tepid marriage? Sure. There is marriage counseling, there is putting a REAL effort in, there is accepting some fault in yourself and working towards something better, there is HONESTY and forthcoming talk about your needs and what is missing.. all sorts of ways.

      CHEATING, LYING and being DUPLICITOUS are not valid responses to a struggling marriage. As if drifting apart is some sort of legitimate excuse. Whose fault is the drifting? Surely the cheater has SOME of the responsibility for that???

      The irony is, when I got married I meant better or worse. I put up with stupid shit for YEARS from him. His terrible financial habits, his propensity to overindulge and drink too much in mixed company, his insistence on doing everything HIS way, the way he would put me down, pick out my clothes because he said I had no fashion sense.. etc. I put up with shit. But I didn’t think any of it was divorce worthy (even if it may have been), I was committed to him and our family… and instead of appreciating and honoring that.. he went out and blew a hole in those vows, and my heart. And he NEVER really apologized, instead, blamed me and MY faults for HIS behavior.

      It’s like CL says, comes down to entitlement.

      • “We grew apart” implies symmetry–both partners headed in different directions.

        Cheating is clearly asymmetrical–if both partners “grew apart” yet only one cheated, there must be some disposition in the cheater that was not there in the chump.

        • Exactly Tempest! “We grew apart” implies the dissolution of the marriage was agreed by both parties.. and in my case is WASN’T and I really resent that assertion. That somehow, I sought the divorce as much as he did. Not true, I would have done most anything to have saved my family… had he been willing to do the tiniest amount of work. But of course he wasn’t willing.

          Now he goes around telling people we will be “better off”. He’ll be better off maybe.. in the short term, but what about our boys? What about their pain? Their sense of security? I’ll surely be better off long term without his cheating ass around.. but it was HIS senseless behavior that caused this.. Not mine. I am sick of him trying to equalize what sins I may have committed with cheating. They just aren’t equal.

          • Newchumpatl–Mine does the same thing. What I realized is you can talk yourself in circles and these cheaters will never see logic. They are not programmed for fairness or to be reasonable; the ONLY remedies for what they do to us are (1) NC and chumps need to finally stop giving a f*ck about what the cheater thinks, and (2) get out your side of the story to anyone who will listen. Do it with humor (“we divorced because I didn’t like his Ashley Madison profile”) but do it. It’s the only way to make headway with the revisionist history and false equivalencies.

          • I was pretty surprised when I discovered my ex’s journal and read “Lyn has to know I’m unhappy.” I remember thinking, “I HAD NO IDEA YOU WEREN’T HAPPY.” My ex would have needed to express his feelings for me to know that, but he never said a word. Never asked whether we could work on an issue, or said he had serious concerns. It seems he created an alternate reality in his mind in which I felt the same way he did about our relationship. It was so bizarre. I truly wonder if the numerous concussions he got while playing in football in high school caused some kind of progressive brain damage.

            • Lyn, I think what he wrote is a truth. He was unhappy. But…and here is the important thing to remember, he WILL ALWAYS be UNHAPPY. Not because of YOU. Because of HIM. In a few years when his new high has worn off he will again realize how unhappy he is. And blame it on somebody. Grownups own their lives, we OWN our choices. The disordered NOT so much. So stop thinking you were any thing less than a blessing, Lyn. Perfect, no. Good, yes. <3

      • Besides, doing another person is not a way to bring excitement back to your marriage. On the contrary, it’s a sure way to finish destroying the sexual attraction you have for your long-term partner.
        I don’t know about you people, but I remember from my college years, that when I hopped onto a new boyfriend, the old one was history. And even if the new one dumped me and the old one was still interested, the old one was like leftovers.
        I’m so glad I evolved. But at least, it helps me understand a bit of what’s going on in their minds.

    • JC, was this on the west coast? (Trying not to give any potentially personal info.) Because our exes might be each other’s APs. This is exactly what happened (cheating through engagement and brief marriage, starting 2 years ago), and I know my cheater’s AP’s husband had your initials…

      • Yes, Free Vixen. I’ve tried to contact you through CL once, but perhaps you didn’t get the e-mail she sent you (obviously, I’m not going to post my e-mail address here). Your ex-husband and my ex-wife are the one-and-the-same cheating “power couple.” I have the general timeframes of how it all played out, although I’d love to compare notes some time.

        • What???? I never got the email because I used a different account to register, and I don’t use it very often. This is crazy! I’ll go back through my email and try to find the message. Also, I hope you’re ok, and I’m sorry for what my ex did to you.

              • Can you two keep us updated! I love this because while CL absolutely preaches “meh” and not caring about the AP or the ex, we are all still humans and crave these details (even if it doesn’t help our healing). You two hit the jackpot of details. I still hear stories about the whore from someone who works with her(and hates her too) and she always tells me the most embarrassing stories about her and it does make me smile. I shouldn’t care, sure, but hearing that the whore fell into a dumpster while drunk sure did make me laugh!

              • I am jumping up and down and cheering for this miracle encounter! I am sure talking to each other will bring some relief for both of you …just knowing more of the truth can allow you to heal and move on! And Free Vixen, never say your sorry for anything your cheater did! None of his cheating was your fault (but you know that, and you say sorry because you are a nice person and feel empathy for the pain of others…).

              • FreeVixen and JC……I ended up meeting up with my ex-husband’s APs husband and we compared notes and helped each other heal long distance by telephone. He, like myself, is a world class chump and a wonderful parent, friend and now partner! I realize that this doesn’t always happen this way, but I am so blessed to have met him. We have lots in common, enjoy each others company and we laugh A LOT!!!! In the beginning……we talked a great deal about the events leading up to our meeting. Now we just enjoy life!!!!

                I hope you can put pieces together and discover further healing!

              • Wow this is insane. Good to see that JC and Free Vixen can help and support each other.

                Kimmy that is very sweet that you and him can help and support each other also.

                I have seen the ex’s AP’s name on here (well first name) but is not the right person. It did make me nervous at first but the comments did not describe the ex and the location was not right also and person is a little older than me (the ex’s AP now wife is about 20 years younger than the ex).

          • Yeah…….it was strange at first when we finally told both sets of kids exactly how we knew each other. Luckily, all of the kids are teenage to early twenties so they understood. It was odd for them at first but they all know that he and I had no intention of this happening and they see how much happier we are. They are all glad that we are smiling again!

            We have had to go to joint family functions where our ex’s were present. Really awkward but funny at the same time. Thankfully, my sense of humor has come back to me!!!! I don’t speak to either of them but I can make it through the event gracefully!

            • Kimmy, that is a very sweet turn of events. You both deserve to have a loving and caring relationship. I wish you and him and the kids the best of luck with everything. I always love reading your comments.

            • Kimmy, wow such a story! You know your story reminds me of Shania Twain and her second husband’s story. I don’t know if you followed it or not but Shania’s first husband was her manager and producer “Mutt” Lange and her best friend and personal assistant was Marie-Anne Thiebaud. “Mutt” and Marie-Anne had an affair that came out in 2008.

              Now, I always admired Shania Twain. She grew up dirt poor and raised her siblings pretty much after her parents were killed in a car crash. Anyway, to be humiliated the way that she was by “Mutt” and then get over that? She almost stopped performing and she had vocal chord issues to that were worsened. Damn… (Talk about surviving a very public feeding of a shit sandwich ) So she and Marie-Anne’s ex, Swiss-born Nestle exec Frederic Thiebaud supported each other, got together and got married in 2011. So, when ever I hear her sing ‘You’re Still the One’ I think about her horrible betrayal, humiliation and being a Super-chump. Then I think of her success and present happiness. She is a female chump role model- surviving and thriving. 🙂

              • We need more stories of public chumps who have taken the mighty road and left the cheater. I feel like too many in the public eye stay for whatever reason and feed the reconciliation complex even though they live in a 10,000+ square foot house and can go all day, week, month without seeing their cheater.

              • I know this story well! Shania rocks! I remember feeling so bad about what happened to her marriage. She lost her husband and her best friend by their betrayal. Horrible!!! Then it happened to me! (my ex’s AP was not a friend of mine).

                I am so happy that for me there was also a great ending! And……added bonus……it bothers the ex’s A LOT!

              • Awesome story Kimmy. It is SO MUCH better to leave the cheater, otherwise you are just one more of the walking dead. I think it’s hilarious to picture the 4 of you meeting up at family events, and it is stunning the quality chumps these cheaters leave behind. I have re-married a man who is also an ex-chump. He is so much better in every way than my ex. I am so thankful in a way for D-Day, otherwise I may have gone to my grave alone and unloved, never knowing what I missed.

            • OMG, these are awesome stories. Kimmy I am so happy for you and I have to admit that I giggled a little when you wrote that your new relationship bugs the exes!

              Free Vixen and JC-it really is a small world. I hope you can both help eachother get to Meh faster!

      • Wow… how cool is this! Two chumps can connect, compare notes, talk and burn right through all the gaslighting B.S. they both endured. Good for both of you! Power to you both!

        You know… It would actually be funny if you both showed up together at family function/public event where both of your cheaters are present. I would love to see their faces- although it would like be a very ‘smelly’ moment because your cheaters would both be… shitting themselves! 😉

    • Thank you all for your cheers for this small chump “win.” Victories sometimes seem few and far between in a life ravaged by cheaters. I am gobsmacked (this may be the first time in my life when I felt like this world was absolutely fitting) that we bumped into each other in this small but life-changing corner of the internet.

      JC and I successfully connected via email, and I am looking forward to (maybe) being able to connect some dots. Not all of them, though, because I’ve come to realize that when it comes to cheaters, some dots just don’t connect.

      It seems that stars are aligning somewhere, somehow. In the last few days, my house finally sold (after a year and a half of drama and fear of foreclosure), I paid off my student loans with the proceeds and am 100% debt free, I connected with JC, and my stbx FINALLY made an appointment with a mediator to move forward with the divorce (we can legally file this month). I don’t know what is going on, but it seems that the karma bus is moving in the right direction.

      • Agreed. Thanks for all the encouragement, fellow chumps.

        Congrats on all the moves forward, Free Vixen. Each one takes you a step further into your new life.

        Talk soon!

        • Have fun. And don’t worry about the dots. Most of them are splatters, and it sounds like the beginning of a beautiful friendship!

  • We wouldn’t want her to take a “deep dive” into the issue.

    Narcissusts are indeed selfish. The pitiful outcome of their selfish actions resulted in the opposite of what they paid for. Poor sad cheaters just wanted to hook up and instead the attention seekers got exposed. Imagine all the rage and scurrying for image control. How do you undo that?

    Aren’t ALL cheaters hypocritical? Yes!

  • Oh forgot to shout out to TheNewElizabeth again for creating this meme. (It’s EP dropping sparkly turds, in case you’re wondering.) Puritans gotta get their gleeful on.

  • Agreed! They seem to want a pass for being character deficient! Sorry! The cheater deserves nothing and when I divorced mine I made damn sure he got nothing! He can have his precious downgrade, but nothing more!

  • Poor Esther is a vapid, selfish bottom feeder. Her exotic accent and expensive highlights don’t change that. The fact that she’s kept mum on the biggest story of the decade in her claimed area of expertise doesn’t surprise me. It’s typical of cheaters to say they stand for something (e.g., monogamy, responsibility, honesty) but then disappear when a little adversity appears.

    No harm done: The public discussion of love and marriage is dramatically improved by her silence, the way an orchestra’s performance is dramatically improved by the departure of a stridently flatulent pig.

  • I remember on Dday when I called STBX mother to let her know what her son had been up to. Her response was that I should have kept it “a private matter between me and him” . I told her ” if our marriage was just between me and him we wouldn’t be in the place we are now!”

    • Yes, Kurleegirl, I got the same type of response from ex’s mother. ” I don’t want to get into that.” Yeah, you never wanted to get into that, I’m sure. You might lose your favored status by trying to direct some morals the way of your offspring. My parents would damn sure got into it if I were whoring around on my family. Cause they have morals.

  • Has anyone noticed Esther Perel looks constipated. It must be hard to produce glitter turds. Perhaps she is need of a anal bead enema.

    As for her not diving deeply into the Trashley Madison hack, sometimes what people don’t say says a lot about them.

    Dear Esther, take a laxative and get a box of crayons….let’s call it “Art Therapy”…you know that useless credential as your springboard to calling yourself a relationship expert…hahahaha

  • Like practically everyone in Europe, Esther’s probably just on holiday.

    Cheaters and cheater apologists cannot be relied upon for anything, even to post relevant and timely blogs… unlike Chump Lady, who is always here when we need her.

  • Today’s topic revved up my ire about how the chump’s story is still an untold story.

    To my surprise, i recently found a very accurate, and triumphant, chump story in Antoinette Tuff’s book, Prepared for a Purpose.

    Who knew the woman who saved an Atlanta school from a mentally ill shooter was a recent victim of infidelity? She had been with her cheater since age 13 and didn’t know he was a serial cheater until they had been together for over 30+ years.

    While her riveting story is obviously about her courage and faith in the face of a shooter, i found her infidelity story to be just as profound. it did not trigger me at all. in fact, her story gave me more hope. FYI the audio version of her book is terrific. most public libraries have it.

    Antoinette is a mighty chump …like all of us. keep telling our stories! (note to self: keep writing that book…)

  • lol – the whole PROBLEM is that it is NOT just between the adulterer AND his/her spouse. It was between the adulterer and x-number of other people who ARE NOT the spouse. They have had the choice to make it between them and their spouses all along… but they didn’t.

    The cost of the spouse to know, apparently? It’s that everyone else knows too, now. News that the hack had happened was out a month before data was released… they had a month to prepare/pre-spin and/or come “clean.” Just like the affair, they CHOSE not to do that.

  • I’ve come to the conclusion that people who cheat on their families (and, yes, it affects the whole family) aren’t worth a moment of my time! Let’s face it, they are BASE! Just like the dogs and deer and rabbits that I get my backyard to copulate! These cheaters are in search of a very cheap thrill at best to only satisfy their urges! Real, authentic, thinking humans with half a brain don’t run wild daily in the streets doing all sorts of socially unacceptable things to simply “scratch an itch!” These “humans?” Are neither evolved or even mature! They are immature to the maximum! It reminds me of when my son was very small and would “play” with himself, which boys do at times…….BUT THEY ARE LITTLE AND DON’T KNOW ANY BETTER! Well, chalk it up to the fact that these idiots have NEVER matured beyond that point in their lives! It’s just so much GROSSER when they are 40,50,and 60 and they have not matured beyond their BASE needs! Yuck! Time for a bleach shower! All this is just my humble opinion!

    • Roberta you always make me laugh!! X actually told me he didn’t have to madturbate in the basement to porn anymore. Just a boy with his toy. I don’t think he has a basement in piggys dump. I heard today he’s having financial difficulties. Lol.

  • If you’re doing something shady, you can’t then yell victim when someone shines the light on you. I think people like Glenn who write this garbage have a problem not with hackers or cheaters, but with morality itself. Being held accountable pisses them off. They themselves operate in the shade.

    I wonder how Glenn feels about undercover narcotics agents who use deception as a means of infiltration to shine the light and bring about justice on drug traffickers. According to this rationale, narcotics is a personal choice between the dealer and the user. It’s most definitely none of our business. None of us should want the DEA to be the morality police by exposing the private lifestyle choices of other adults. There is no moral high ground. A pedophile and a fireman is on equal moral grounds, therefore no one is qualified to judge another. Nor should we cheer when someone’s life is invaded no matter how corrupt they are because hey, lets not feel morally superior. That’s bad. That would make you a bad human being. But Glenn can say these things because the rule applies to everyone but him. Adultery? That’s whatever. No harm done, just some chaos and families broken. It wouldn’t matter if we didn’t think of ourselves as “progressive and advanced”. There would be nothing wrong with any crime if we didn’t think of ourselves as morally superior. Why can’t you progress pass that?

    Who are we to judge? Why does Glenn have a job is a better question.

  • Lets be real a good chunk of the population are lazy and entitled. They think getting married means this story book romance not the work it takes to make a successful and healthy marriage. Most of these people can’t have a conversation that doesn’t involve text messaging so how could they actually work on any problems within a marriage. Throw in all these apps that make meeting people easier than ever and its a recipe for disaster.

    • Exactly Fiddler! My stbx has no problem bullying me via text messaging and texting me about the divorce. But when we were face-to-face…..there was no mention of the divorce or how badly he is trying to screw me out of it. His SEXTING is what got us into this ‘disaster.’ Asshole.

      • Yep my wife hardly had time to talk it was always texting. Then when we she was home she was emailing work or setting up dates with guys she met on AM. She never said anything to me about any problems or issues she was having. And anytime I would try and bring something up she say we’ll talk later. Later never happened.

        Sometimes I feel like our grand parents had it right when it came to love, romance and marriage. Not saying we need to go back to exactly the way it was but maybe we should learn some lessons from them.

      • Mine refused to respond to a single email I sent after the confrontation, didn’t want the emails coming back to bite him in the ass later for…..anything including high stakes questions like “do you want the dishes and flatware?” so not that he doesn’t want to discuss anything with me face to face after the settlement has been signed….that’s right I won’t answer any of his emails.

  • My oldest daughter rarely speaks to her father or sees him. Mostly because he continues to deflect blame and refuses to hold himself accountable for her pain and feelings of abandonment. His claim is that what happened between he and I does not involve our children! Idiot!!!!! She continues to go to therapy and I have tried to him how she feels but it doesn’t change anything. She needs to hear an apology for the events that took place and he needs to acknowledge her feelings and take the blame. Until he does that……..she has no time for him!

    It is amazing that cheaters cannot see the entire picture and the fallout for their actions! It extends way beyond the immediate family as well!!!!!!!!!

    • When it comes to *them*, they won’t hear anything different. Can’t reason with them, don’t even try. They’re not worth one breath from your lungs.

  • Private private private private……

    It’s no longer private when you give your info to a 3rd party like AM. Or AFF. Or or plenty of fish. Or craig’s list.

    Sick of hearing that this hack is about private activities between two consenting adults & i must be a Puritan if i think these aholes got their just desserts.

    Not so. You gave your info to a third party, you cant claim attorney/client privilege if you cant keep your pie hole shut in front of a third party & you cant make a privacy argument when you’re giving your credit card# these clowns to match you up with low hanging fruit.


    • Amen. Moreover, the attorney-client privilege doesn’t even apply to communications in which the client seeks the services of the lawyer for the purpose of engaging in crime or fraud. Cheating on your marriage isn’t a legally recognized fraud, but is sure as hell is the moral equivalent, in fact, much worse. I’d much rather be cheated out of, say my car, than my family.

      • Still illegal in 23 states, I’m told. Ergo, at least in those states, signing up for AM was with the intent of committing a crime.

    • I’m no Puritan, if acceding to 16 years’ worth of demands for deviant sex with Cheaterpants is evidence. In fact, Cheaterpants got his BJ demands acceded to by me shortly before I found a single phone number on his cell phone that I was paying for for at least 10 years. So it wasn’t the lack of sex (exuberant defiance on my dime). And invasion of privacy in “private matters?” How about Cheaterpants bringing OW to our house while I was at work. For whatever reason. Still makes me sick two years later. I can’t stand these bloviating pseudo intellectual apologists. You try living my hell. Then tell me how justified it was. Assholes.

  • A little bit about selfishness. Of course, my Ex went sniffing around for an easy piece and found her spread eagle and eager to please ANYONE on Facebook! Selfish? ABSOLUTELY! Then I filed for divorce and informed him that it was my intent to let him have his little Schmoopie who he was so proud of cause she’s “loaded” and spends it freely, BUT then has the audacity to tell me after 41 years of marriage that I am being selfish by cleaning him out of everything we owned, plus investments! Like I said, turnabout is fair play! He can suck it!

  • ” adultery is a private matter between the adulterer and his or her spouse “

    OK, I am not going to let this part by… because if it was just between the cheater and their spouse, then who are they cheating with exactly?

  • I have a love of Greenwald, he was/is one of the few journalists that understands the horrific ramifications of the Patriot act and has done excellent coverage of Snowden. If he stuck to the logical, how this AM leak is bad due to privacy issues, he’d be right – it’s really messed up on that count. However, he is going after people for judgement and forcefully insisting that no one should care about this, he’s pissing me off. He upped the ante with this bullshit post last week, am I supposed to believe the tearful anonymous letter he recieved from an AM user? I’m afraid I don’t and even if true, I doubt most AM users are in this boat, even if true, WTF, tell your husband…

    • I don’t mourn the loss of secrecy when it involves people who use that secrecy to devastate extremely vulnerable people (my kids, for instance). The AM hack exposed ONLY people who were having affairs or seeking affairs. It has nothing in common with the wholesale collection of phone data for later “mining” to see *whether* illegal conduct is indicated with regard to specific people. Apples and oranges.

      Fuck the dark. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

      • Actually it exposes the addresses and full names of the AM users, so potentially the chumps address since most cheaters don’t get a PO box. I’m glad they were exposed but there is PII in ther and ther are some chumps who joined the site to check on shit, so not only cheaters. Ethically speaking hacking AM was wrong, no matter if I think cheaters deserve to be outed, the act was wrong.

        • I understand your point, but I believe the amount of good that came out of the hack was a thousand times greater than any harm that occurred to innocent people. Sometimes a moral, ethical, or even legal wrong serves a greater good. A starving person stealing a loaf a bread comes to mind, or a man breaking the speed limit to get his child to the emergency room.

          I don’t think I’m alone in feeling that I would have gladly dealt with some identify theft issues if it meant I got to find out about my ex-wife’s cheating a decade earlier.

  • Where oh where is the ‘thumbs up’ or ‘love, love, love’ button when you need it!!!

    To this!!!!: “Yeah, you know what else is humiliating? Being cheated on. Having your feet up in stirrups for an STD test after years of presumed monogamy. Catching an STD. Having to reveal the STD to your new partner after you ditch the cheater. Being gaslighted and told you’re crazy.”

    • IHaveHate, don’t know about anyone else, but getting STD checked and having to go back to the doctors office for some of the most painful procedures known to women! I had one “deep dig” done and they waited until lunch time to do the damn thing because they knew I would scream with pain! It was GAWD Awful! I had four kids natural childbirth and I can tell you never had I experienced pain like that! My surgeries for lung cancer weren’t even as awful and I had ribs cut out!!! Oh, and where was Mr. Cheaterpants? He was off banging his Schmoopie and they were making plans to make my life even more miserable if I survived!! Great Guy I tell ya! So, ask me if I give two fucks what happens to him? Whatever horrors lie ahead for him, he deserves it! No mercy! No sympathy! Just the same as he gave me!

        • Please feel free to kick him in the balls Donna, but don’t damage Schmoopies designer handbag when you do it and check your aim cause they are very, very tiny! Think little mouses balls! Ha! Ha! Ha!

  • Oh geez Esther and Glen– the devastation in the cheaters’ lives is having their names published for WHAT THEY DID… what they willingly and calmly (and most likely repeatedly) did…of their own accord… cause they felt like it…cause no one is the boss them….Cause their promises don’t matter. How can they seriously bemoan the poor cheaters’ predicament??? (As a Linkin Park song I listened to after D-Day said over and over: “YOU DID IT TO YOURSELF”!).

    On the other hand, the devastation in a chump’s life is what was done TO us BEHIND OUR BACKS…in secret….by our supposed beloved spouses and best friends… know the ones who vowed fidelity, honor and love….but then who lied to and betrayed us…. and for many of us did this throughout years and even decades of our lives, after having children, after stealing the college funds, after we went through menopause, after we got old, after they had taken he best years of our lives before we found out……

    So who is worrying about Chumps committing suicide when the truth is known, when our victimhood is realized, when we see the horror behind the mask, when we watch not only our futures but our very pasts falling away? Who is worried that we in our depression and horror will suffer symptoms of PTSD and complete devastation, lose OUR jobs, be unable to parent our children, suffer humiliation and scorn? Who worries that it will be as if WE THE CHUMPS e are branded with a red letter A for abandoned and L for loser besides????

    Oh, no one, that’s right. We only care about the cheating lying sociopaths.


    What is the phrase? It’s not that they don’t see, they just disagree.

  • In the case of my illustrious cheater, there were 5 OW when I caught him, and they did not know about each other, although it seems they all knew about me. But I of course was the only one who knew NOTHING. So how does that work, in Esther & Glenn Land? Shouldn’t all seven of us had a place in the secret sacred decider space?

  • Seems no one worries about a chump whose mind is very fragile after DDAY! I remember years ago a neighbor lady whose husband was always grabbing and leering at all the other wives. My then husband and I saw her walking one day and waved to her. It seemed odd to us because she had a car and a small child at home. She had neither when we saw her. Turns out we were the last to see her alive. We lived right across from the Mississippi River and she threw herself in and committed suicide! Found out later that her cheater husband was cheating on her with her sister!! As soon as she was buried those two pieces of shit married each other! It was a scandel for sure. Those two were treated like pariahs!

    • Yep, nobody cares about the 2 years I spent barely hanging on. So depressed that I was incapable of really being there for my children, my friends, my parents, my job. Makes me want to scream when I hear these idiots talk about what those cheating bastards deserve.

      I guess because most of them were on AM for perfectly legitimate, innocent reasons and didn’t do anything wrong. Really? There’s a plausible reason for signing up to a cheating website? BULLSHIT!

      • We care Einstein. Regardless of their ignorance they will all have their day. They are lined up like pigs for the slaughter. That’s the truth. Selfishness is in? Only a nutcase would say such a thing. They are dumber than the cheaters.

      • Einstein , we all care for you. It will get better as most of we chumps can atest to. It is the hardest thing any of us have had to endure but we will prevail. My ex at 63 years of age appears to have landed on his feet beautifully with his 23 year old tart and he is bragging that he has a great new life. I have been completely airbrushed from his and our 2 adult kids history/lives. It is hard work for all of us and it does take a lot of work. One day at a time Einstein, one day at a time. (((HUGS)))

  • Roberta, is your husband the one in Thailand? If they stop making Viagra he is shit out of luck! Also, if his money runs out and he gets ill who is going to look after him? If he dies over there refuse the body. She wanted him, now she has him. If he believes a word she says it is the “there is no fool like an old fool”. If he calls don’t answer and if he shows up you are not at home. Be sure and change the locks on your doors, buy a recliner, get some wine and chill. I hope your life is so peaceful.

  • ‘Adultery is a private matter between spouses’ is a ridiculous statement. Would the inventor of that ‘thought’ please tell my children that the reason they will not have money for college (and lots of other things) is their father paid prostitutes and affair partners with the money he promised me he would put in their college savings accounts?

    Would he also explain to me how ‘adultery is a private matter,’ as due to my STBX’s use of family funds on prostitutes and affair partners, I now lack funds for treatment of a chronic joint problem I’ve had for a few years and thus live in near-constant pain that keeps me up every night. I am so tired that I can barely get out of bed. The chronic fatigue puts me in a state in which I can barely function and thus worry about being more of a detriment than a benefit to my clients, relatives, friends, neighbors, and even people on the street.

    Also, would the same person like to explain how ‘adultery is a private matter between spouses’ to Family Court, who has to decide how to divvy spouses’ limited money and time between the legitimate brood and the illegitimate brood of a cheating husband? If the cheater were like mine, he tried to secretly impregnate his affair partner and then get a vasectomy without loyal but unknowingly chumped wife’s permission.

    I could go on and on about how adultery is not a ‘private matter between spouses,’ but I need to find out how to secure food stamps, free lunches, and much cheaper (pro bono?) representation in court (which STBX dragged me into) to tide us (kids and me) over until my STBX allows us to move into the house of my generous,elderly parents 30 miles away, where I can find work that almost supports a family at subsistence level.

    And I don’t believe that adultery doesn’t destroy a marriage. I’m fairly sure that it virtually always does, even if the damage is not apparent to the ‘outside’ world and the married couple never divorces. My STBX told me to get him a dating site membership and physically, emotionally, verbally, financially, and legally abused me in a myriad of horrific ways that would make the Marquis de Sade proud. Staying married and living with him was not an option if I wanted the kids and me to stay alive. I don’t think that I am alone in this unfortunate situation.

    To me, it seems that adultery has far-reaching adverse physical, emotional, mental, financial, legal, and ethical consequences for millions, if not billions, of people, and thus is far from a PRIVATE matter between spouses.

  • What disgusts me the most is when people spout the ‘Its none of your business’ crap – and when you say ‘of course its my business, decisions were made without my consent’ you’re labelled a ‘moral crusading fuckwit on a high horse’. This happened to me less than 2 weeks ago.
    Needless to say, I metaphorically shanked the bastard who was stupid enough to say that, but its still annoying as shit. And, unfortunately, this is the norm for thought these days – even though its usually disordered people cracking the shits because they can’t do whatever they want.

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