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Dear Chump Lady, My ex denies that he cheated. Others believe it.

lieDear Chump Lady,

I am 33 years old and two months post-discovery of my ex-fiance’s affair, which was two months long with a sleazy girl who had nothing to lose. I discovered it through social media. My ex denied, denied, denied — poorly, he is a terrible liar — and tried to silence the affair partner and have her delete photos and tweets (she essentially documented the whole thing on Twitter w/o naming my ex — but it was obvious — and she detailed the sex things they did too).

I didn’t rage or anything; I told him to own it and tell me he was sorry; he refused, since he “couldn’t be sorry for something he didn’t do.” But he DID do it, of course. He kept saying, “You don’t have proof!” I figured it out, I was right, and he got caught. I am one thousand percent certain it happened — NO doubt– and walked away.

Still, my ex stayed denying it to anyone who would listen, and this keeps getting back to me. I’ve started avoiding social situations. (I live in a downtown scene where everyone knows each other.) It makes me feel like my head is in a blender — like he’s handing me a glass of orange juice and insisting it’s blue. Ultimately, it was this behavior that made it easy to walk away. No apology, no remorse, and fucking with my head? Screw him. The breakup has rocked our social circle and been very traumatic for me, though I know I made the right choice.

Matt DEFINITELY wants me back; he is a greedy cake-eater, and I made his life very comfortable. Thus he has been sending messages through people — he is also a coward — and every time I see one of our MANY mutual friends (he is very well-liked and the more social one), they say: “Matt says he didn’t do it.” This has happened with six or seven people. It infuriates me — the head in the blender thing again — and I don’t know what to say. I am SO SICK of hearing “Matt says he didn’t do it.” It makes me FOAM AT THE MOUTH.

I have found myself obsessively thinking of comebacks for hours. That’s why I’m writing you. I just need one line. I don’t want to be rude to the people, and I don’t want to say anything negative about Matt (it would make me look bad). I want to shut it down and not ramble on and get angry. Can you think of a good comeback? I honestly HAVE to stop obsessing over a good one… I am losing hours of my life…every day. I feel like I can’t face people until I am armed with the right words to say. Please help! 



Dear C,

You don’t need a one-liner. You need an exit strategy from this social circle.

Matt is triangulating others with his gaslighting. When they report to you “Matt says he didn’t do it,” they’re as much as saying they don’t believe you. They Fail to Understand Your Hostility. They’re putting the onus of what Matt did on you, and your reaction to it.

Hey, you just cancel weddings for the sport of it! You must be making up some imaginary slight. Boy you’re overreacting!

These people — these Switzerland friends — have sided, they just don’t want you to think that. So they feign concern. They still associate with Matt. You’re obviously heart-broken, but they live in some alternative reality where Everything Should Just Go Back The Way It Was so they don’t have to rearrange their social calendars or reform opinions.

If they’re going to reform an opinion of anyone — it’s YOU. You’re being irrational!

No wonder you’re furious. Nothing drives a person stark raving bonkers more than having her reality denied.

One liners? I’m sure Chump Nation can come up with some for you. “Didn’t like his girlfriend.” “I prefer to marry Matt monogamously. He wasn’t on board.” Whatever.

But the big picture here is IT DOESN’T MATTER. The people who don’t have your back, who cannot be there for you in a time of great loss and heart break, ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. They’re casual acquaintances. Who cares what they think?

Hang in there, C. You lost a fuckwit and his merry band of losers. Better days ahead.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
    • I think STFU would suffice. I’m from Jersey. This is how we would handle it.

      • FU2? 😉 Seriously, at 52 years old now with the scars to prove I tolerated crappy boundaries and too much BS, “F U” seems nice, succinct, and gets the point across that I am not letting you fuck with me asshole who claims to be a friend.

      • Good one OrlandoMB!
        I’m Jersey born & raised how come I didn’t think of that?! That’s the only answer those so-called friends deserve!

      • I did cover for my cheater npd ex. But then I realized it only hurt me more to see him getting consoled for hurting me and lying. It’s like he got rewarded for being horrible.

        My advice is be direct and to the point. Say to them: ‘I really hope Matt gets help for his compulsive lying problem. Please help him as his friend. Because I caught him red handed. I have pictures, proof, the whole nine yards. I’m trying not to blow this girls life up by naming her and showing you all the dirty details. But I will if he doesn’t stop lying. Matt knows what he did. Please let him know if he continues to lie and not get help, I may let you all see the proof. I can’t marry someone with a compulsive lying problem and cheating problem. What’s worse though is how as our friends, he’d even lie to you and trick you. I feel sorry for you too that Matts playing you.”

        Though it’s detailed I’d go in full throttle but polite. Make them aware they are also pawns. Perhaps add In “Matt told me of our friends would believe any lie he made up, and not to try and out him, but I’m not ok with covering for him anymore and I know you don’t like what he said about you.”

      • Oh shit that is hilarious! Good one OrlandoMB! I think its perfect and would definitely put a smile on my face and make me feel better as I was walking away from the false friend!!!!! LOL!

    • Truth is there is NO one line that will change his version or their behavior.

      It isn’t fair but it is the truth.

      True friends will unquestionably belive you; uncaring people are just that.

      Find the true friends, make new friends and save yourself years of trying to see the blue in your juice.

  • “Well, what Matt says does not change the hard evidence I have saying otherwise. Does it bother you that he is using you to lie?”

    Really, I think the long-term solution is to find another group of friends. These are not “friends.” They are “neutral” at best and how can one remain neutral when your friend has been soul raped? Says a lot about their allegiances and level of true care.

    • Perfect. I love how it both cites the hard evidence instead of “he said” and shows the “friends” they are being used. “What he says doesn’t change the facts. Does he often ask you to spread lies for him or is this one of the first times? Does it bother you to be used this way?”

    • I completely agree with Divorce Minister but I’m sure C is overwhelmed at the thought of finding all new friends. Give it time C you will be able to see that is the best thing to do but it may take some time and distance from the situation to see that and that’s OK.

      • Agreed, Nicole S. I hope C is kind to herself and gives herself time. My concern is how these “friends” are currently not acting like friends. Staying in touch clearly presents these very distressing situations for C and does not help the healing process. I would say focus on the true friends who are not being used as proxies to spread his lies.

        • Yes among that circle there are one or two who see. Create a new healthy circle with them.

  • Mind your own business? Simple, seems like it would work and like CL says, who cares if they are offended – they are a bunch of fuckwits anyway.

    • He had too many cum receptacles and as his wife of 27 years I bowed out of the equasion.

  • That they are choosing to become involved in something that is none of their business speaks volumes, drop these losers. If anyone approaches you again, don’t mince words and tell them so.

    • Really! Why are they even talking about it? Get some new drinking buddies. Better yet, get out of Dodge.

  • I always liked Princess Diana’s line about her divorce from Charles: “There were three of us in this marriage (relationship, in your case) so it was a bit crowded.”

  • This is exactly like my story, he completely denies the affair with howorker even though there is lots of evidence that suggests there was one and his behavior after getting caught showed no remorse in his actions, he went straight into damage control, image protection and blame shifting towards me. Cheater script was followed to a tea and gaslighting to an extreme. My one liner I say to people is simple and clear cut “He had an affair with an Indian up north that he worked with and I’m not into sharing, that’s why I left”. That’s all I say when asked because it’s the TRUTH!

      • Same story here… howorker but on the other side of the planet, lies despite clear evidence, gaslighting making me feel like my head’s in a blender, how dare I find condoms in his work bag (how can he trust me after being a snoopy bitch?!)…. . Thank God C found out before marrying the jackass – saved her many wasted years.

  • listen my H denies as well and I saw he his text messages on his secret cell phone for over a year until she finally dumped him. I agree with Chump Lady true friends would believe you as they would know your are truthful etc… my own inlaws believed me over his lies. I quess I would say “I am telling you the truth you can choose who you believe but don’t defend him to my face again in fact do not even mention his name to me again if you wish to remain my friend”

    • I know this has happened to a lot of us, this lying despite irrefutable evidence deal. I think this is one sign at just how different these folks are. I am sure most of us have told a lie at some point in life. But, the tenacitg with which a disordered type clings to it is amazing.
      It makes you doubt your reality because a normal person just could not do it.
      It is like riding in a car with one other person and smelling a fart and then having them deny farting. You know they did it. They kjow they did it. And, they know you know they did it. But, amazingly, they still deny it.

      • One of my cheater’s favorite lines is “A lie told often and stuck to is as good as the truth.” Yet another red flag in the daily red flag parade that I spackled over.

  • I would say, “Well of course that’s what he says, because cheaters lie and liars cheat.” Won’t probably change their minds, but maybe, just maybe they will be stunned momentarily by this truth they have never considered.

  • Absolute disaster averted! Just say “I lost my trust in him” and turn on your heels and move forward to your glorious future.

    So many people do not want to believe their “friend” did a terrible thing. So they try to convince you it isn’t true, so they don’t have to change. That works for them.

    It can be lonely when you realize you were involved in a sociopath, but give yourself the highest amount of credit and self respect. Your instinct to leave him, however difficult, was very wise. You saved yourself huge amounts of grief. Good on you.

    20 years from now, those same “friends’ will say … “I kinda knew something was off about him, but I didn’t want to say anything”.

    Go celebrate… you dodged a big one.

    • Completely agree with CL, and great points Nancy!

      C, you are mighty! Keep trusting your gut, keep putting yourself first, and keep refusing to spackle!

      “I lost my trust in him” should be more than enough for friends to understand.

      If they don’t apologize to you for being too forward or pushy, then downgrade these people to mere acquaintances, give them as little polite attention as possible, and expand your circle of friends with mature people that share your commitment to trust and truth in relationships.

      Congratuations on dodging a gigonormous bullet!

  • My ex’s story is out there as “Champ and I split up. I’m dating Poopsie.” I say, “Yes, but not in that order.”

  • This is a timely post for me because I am also dealing with someone who cannot seem to admit things. Unlike this somewhat lucky poster, I don’t have concrete proof.. I have a bunch of circumstantial evidence, but no proof like a twitter account or documented communication. I know he called her daily, when I confronted, took it underground, lied to me about seeing/talking to her. I know he sought her out and pulled away from me.

    As a chump it’s very hard to deal with the gaslighting when the proof isn’t concrete, or it has been for me. Now my STBX wants to reconcile and doesn’t seem to understand why I don’t trust him. Claiming “I never did this so I didn’t break your trust”. Finally, I broke it down to him this way… and it has helped me orient myself as well, which is what is really important:

    “Whether you slept with the whore or not doesn’t really matter. It actually doesn’t. What matters is that you took time and attention away from our marriage, and our family. You let this person come between us. You turned your back on me and turned TOWARD her. Whether you did anything physical or not, that’s really the betrayal. The fact that you could disrespect me that way, you could think so little of me and our life together, that you’d RISK it all for some two bit tramp. That is the issue. Not whether your private parts touched her private parts. It’s the lying, the secrecy and the deception. THOSE are the issues. That’s where the trust was destroyed. I do not intend to EVER tolerate this sort of disrespect in my life again.. from you or ANYONE.”

    When I put it to him that way, it shut him down. And it gave me the closure I needed. I was so focused on getting all the information so I could feel okay with the decision I made and I finally realized that doesn’t matter. My feelings are ultimately what matters.

    C- it matters not what narrative he spins to try to make himself out to be a “not so bad guy” and it matters not what people think. This is YOUR life. What YOU think matters. To hell with everyone else. I know it sucks.. my STBX’s family is really pushing reconciliation.. and if that doesn’t happen, they will be pissed and me but in the end, it’s not their life. Anymore than it’s my family’s life (who is pushing the other way). In the end, it’s about what YOU think about YOURSELF and your boundaries and what you will tolerate. I’ve had trouble trusting myself too, but in the end I think we have to learn how to.

    • THIS – !!!! I’m going to memorize your third paragraph as my response to her or anyone else who questions me. Including me. Thank you!

    • Brilliant NewChumpatl!!! “Whether you did anything physical or not, that’s really the betrayal. The fact that you could disrespect me that way, you could think so little of me and our life together, that you’d RISK it all for some two bit tramp. That is the issue. Not whether your private parts touched her private parts.” This is perfect for those cheaters that want to split hairs, and will admit to everything but the actual sex… as if that’s the only betrayal.

      My advice for C: I know it’s painful that your friends don’t believe that your x could do such a thing. However, I don’t know that I would write them off (yet). When I think back to how long I was in denial about my cheaters activities it blows my mind. I had to watch him for 2 years… analyze his behavior, and creep on his social media to really understand how disordered he is. When I finally decided to tell my family they were angry, but I could tell they still figured I had failed in some way that contributed to his cheating. It was PAINFUL. I knew from my own experience that they’d need time to process his cheating behavior, just as I had. Fast forward 6 months: details of his cheating have been slipping out, his behavior is under a microscope, and my family can hardly stomach the sight of him. Remember, these people are friends to BOTH of you… that means they’ll need more time to process what you’ve said, and observe his behavior. Believe me, they’re all thinking back, reliving their time with him, wondering if they missed any red flags, wondering how he hid it. It’s normal processing. They’re trying to make sense of the relationship, and their own ability to detect the deception.

      I would be candid about what happened, but not to the point of giving out nasty details. Give your friends time to process the information. Those that choose to deny, for whatever reason (that’s another topic), are not real friends, and they won’t have your back when you need them. Let them go.

      • Maybe she could say “I’m not surprised you believe him, he’s very convincing. I believed him for a long time too.” Then change the subject to something else.

        • We have to remind ourselves that public image is #1 with these disordered people, so they have years and years of refining the art of lying and cover-up. They are expert at charming and deceiving I like Lyn’s approach when others say “but…he seems like such a nice guy!” (reverse gender if the POS is a female) If these so-called friends continue to question or disbelieve you, either show them the door or refer them to a site about PD’s. Your choice.

      • I so agree with this! It isn’t the sex part that was the ultimate betrayal. It was the lies, lack of respect for me, our relationship….and the duplicity. Those were the things that hurt to the core….for a long, long time.

        Notice the past tense. After the hurt is indifference. Glorious, well-deserved, indifference. Hang in there!

        • I agree. The lies, deception and lack of any respect for a loyal and loving wife that was the deal-breaker. It was surprising that the fact that he was having sex with the grubby slut was not such an issue in comparison.

          The pain is unbearable but does fade. I do find that I am mostly numb to the old pain and that I cannot remember much of the past, good or bad, which is strange.

          I miss a partner and feel lonely but would not go back to the old life with him, for a million pounds. Indifference is a welcome relief and new doors start to open.

    • That third paragraph says it all NewChumpatl! That is exactly how I felt and the same way my stbx acted. Sometimes the similarities on this blog just blow me away. Once I left and started therapy, I also found out about gaslighting, emotional, verbal and mental abuse. I never thought I would have let myself be subjected to any of that.

      C – you need to drop those so called friends and move on. If they are willing to defend him, they will also be willing to share with him what you share with them. Cut all ties and find a better circle of friends. And remember that everyone here has been through what you are experiencing now. We make good friends – we wholeheartedly understand and our hugs are sincere!

    • Excellent post, newchumpatl. Again, it seems many of us only had circumstantial evidence and it feeds your doubt. But, I suspect few of us are, by nature, paranoid, jealous or suspicious. In fact, I bet most betrayeds are way more trusting than average.
      So, it takes pretty strong evidence, circumstantial or not, to get to the point of suspecting our spouses.

    • Have to agree … your 3rd paragraph nails it! It speaks to my exact situation.

  • “Matt says he didn’t do it.”

    You say, “And I know he did. That’s the line in the sand you must decide to cross, if you so choose.”

    And, if they deny anymore, you simply say, “You’ve made your choice clear. I wish you the best.” And walk away.

  • Tracy is right about this as she always is, you need new friends. But the problem is it is just too tempting to spend a lot of time thinking of zingy comebacks.

    Matt says he didnt do it

    ” funny, that is just what charles manson says”
    ” yes, matt’s evil twin is ALWAYS getting him in to trouble”
    ” have you seen the side piece? I wouldnt admit to that either!”
    ” he is thinking about dressing up for halloween as Bill Clinton, only the whore is having trouble keeping her blue dress on”

    Why just one line? These things write themselves….

  • “These people — these Switzerland friends — have sided, they just don’t want you to think that. So they feign concern. They still associate with Matt. You’re obviously heart-broken, but they live in some alternative reality where Everything Should Just Go Back The Way It Was so they don’t have to rearrange their social calendars or reform opinions.”

    ^^This^^…. Amen and thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU, Chump Lady!! You have explained it perfectly. I want to shout this from the top of the Alps and hear it echo cross the land…

    • **across**

      I’ve tried to maintain relationships with some so-called “neutral friends” and eventually realized it’s not worth it. They did not experience it. If they choose to believe my ex is Mr. Wonderful and I am the crazy ex, so be it. Count me out. It’s not worth the mental torture.

      • Same here. Two couples both said they were “staying neutral” but both started socializing with Ex and OW and stopped inviting me to their parties. One couple within a couple of weeks of DDay which makes me wonder if they already knew and when I kicked cheater out of our home, they allowed him to come and live with them till OW bought her big cushy suburban tract house where he now lives. The other couple also started socializing with the newly minted now legitimate couple. The cheater spin has filtered back to me via friends of these Switzerland friends as “Cheater met someone else and then he dumped Muse.” Well, not quite. They, too, stared at me like I had six heads when I told them I had proof that he had cheated with a prior OW. And you know what? If I cannot talk about what happened to me, how he violated my trust, in front of so-called friends then they are not friends.

  • If you have ever served on a jury, it will give you some perspective for how difficult it is to get people to agree on a conclusion, even when you all examine the same evidence. No one can know what another person’s relationship is like, because they are not there 24/7 and they do not know what you heard, saw, smelled, or experienced. It really doesn’t matter what others think about his guilt, unless they are considering getting into a relationship with him. You were there. Your reality is all that matters, to you.

    You may point this out to them by suggesting that if they believe him, they should get involved with him and see how that works out for them. Or you may try to make a joke, about how absurd it is to believe what other people tell you. For instance, if you read a profile on a dating site a man might SAY he is 5’10”, but when you meet him he is 5’7″ in his shoes. What are you supposed to do then? Believe he is 5″10″ because he says so? There is an old joke about a cheater who asks his wife, “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”

    As Chump Lady suggests, believe that they suck. It is not your job to convince others.

  • OMG these PEOPLE!! Look, I can think of 100 one liners but the fact remains that these people are assholes. I don’t think it’s so much that they don’t believe you, but like CL says, they like things to stay the way they are. If he’s the favorite “more social” one, they’ve picked their side already and know he’s fucked around but they don’t really care. And really, you don’t need “friends” like that.

    I’d end up saying something along the lines of “Either you back me or you don’t. If you want him so bad, you fucking marry him.” But after that, I’d sever these fucks.

    I lost a pile of “friends” when asshole imploded our marriage. But I had to do it. There was no way I’d be able to get on with my life with these idiots still in it. People who really care about you do not expect you to get back with the person who ripped you apart.

    And congratulations on dumping this idiot pre-nuptuals. Bullet dodged!

    • I agree with Rumblekitty. My parents-in-law eventually supported their abusive cheater son, telling me that I should re-enter a dangerous situation because I had no financial options. I knew then that they, like their son, didn’t really love me. I ended up ‘dropping’ my parents-in-law, the paternal grandparents of my children, after treating them as my second set of parents for a decade. Stopping contact with them was like cutting off my own arm–a gangrenous one. Cutting it off was painful, but leaving it connected would have been disastrous.

      One line response to ‘friends:’ Matt cheats and lies to both you and me.

      • I cut off my in-laws as well. It took me a long time and finally it was my therapist who told me they were toxic and continuing to have a relationship with them, where they were pretty much gas lighting me and blame shifting like mad, was dangerous to me and keeping me stuck and in pain.

        When I finally listened and said ‘enough’ it hurt like hell but in the end it really did help me move forward. And looking back I can see they really were – and are – just as toxic as he was and is.

  • My “one liner” usually comes after the “what happened?” question. I say “he took his vows to be suggestions and ‘love thy neighbor’ literally”
    For the “he says he got together with her after the breakups” (she was married too) – I say “of course they say that. They also say _________ and I were horrible people”

    • Yes not really into forsaking all others vow. Must have had his fingers crossed behind my back. Whore juice is more than welcome to him.

  • Some responses that will leave them scratching their head

    “He categorically denies having sexual relations with that woman!”


    “Can you give me a minute I still have his shoe stuck in my ass, can I use your bathroom?”


    “Yes and I forgot to mention he is a virgin since we never had sex!”


    “You know in the bedroom he looks like a monkey screwing a football!”

    Serious ones

    “If you want to remain my friends please do not mention him to me in this same context again.”


    “I understand what you are saying but it is no longer relevant. I made my decision, so please if you wish to remain part of my life lets not talk about him again in the same context.”


    “I am seeing someone else so it would be rude to bring him up again.” (It may not be true but it would signal that you are really done with him.

  • Don’t you think that if you saw it on social media, that some of them saw it too? I think you should find new friends. So sorry this happened to you…

  • I had Switzerland friends, one even felt the need to berate me in public because she felt the need to choose and it was clearly all my fault for choosing to end my marriage following d’day. The bottom line of her little tirade and I quote ” who looks after those, who look after those who choose to end their marriage”. Yep it was all my fault and my d’day trauma at that point became all about her and her stress over choosing. This ex friend is now championing my XH’s cause by repeating his lies that he never cheated it was all just a lie he made up to get away from me because I refused to divorce him. My XH never asked for a divorce quite the opposite, he insisted when I asked for a divorce a month before d’day that we do counselling stating that he loved me and wanted to make our marriage work. I found out after d’day that during this expression of love, devotion and Christian commitment he hooked up with someone during this time.

    I hate to say it but i do think the Christian Switzerland friends are without doubt the hardest to manage.
    “I need to remain friends with him just in case he finally comes to a place of true repentance, he may need my help.”
    “God calls us to forgive, besides I don’t need to know what he did as that may cause me to judge him unfairly”
    And my favourite from the elder who provided his lounge room for my d’day revelation, ” there is no need for anyone to know what he did as that may hinder his recovery, besides two wrongs don’t make a right”.

    I know my situation is different to most but 22 months post d’day I have learnt that those who know the truth and know me, love me and have my back. And the rest can get on with their shallow pathetic lives.
    Because I know who will have the last laugh, no matter how long it takes.

    • The topic of Switzerland friends is an interesting one: I have really struggled to rationlize how friends could remain friendly with my ex, and even welcome her AP, and still think they could remain friends with me. And these are close friends, who saw me break down when I discovered her affair and know the sordid details.

      The reality is that people don’t like to rock the boat: You are outwardly happy now. She is definitely happy, so what’s the problem here. Let’s move on as quickly as possible from the scene of the “accident”.
      The problem is that they have no moral conscience and take the easy route of glossing over the details, and glossing over your pain.

      And as painful as it is, I’ve walked away from these Switzerland friends, because I just cannot deal with their ambiguity. It’s took a year to reach this conclusion, and I’m better off for it.

      • Amen NorthLondon,

        If you want to be the cheaters friend, be their friend. If you want to be my friend, then be my friend. But you have no place being both because that means you lack personal integrity.
        There is a really great song out at the moment by James Bay ” nobody needs a best fake friend” those who I have identified as being like this in my life I have no time for.

        As a result I lost my entire church family just after d’day and because I have no actual family this was a huge blow. But finding my centre and cutting ties with double minded people was worth it.

      • the Switzerland friends have been a strange conundrum for me as well. I kept thinking, ‘they’re really my friends though’ and ‘they saw what happened!’ But it is so true that people really don’t want to “lose their fun.” my ex hosts a yearly party that many of them enjoy attending, because he provides the booze, the activities, etc. they simply cannot let some abusive shocking behavior ruin the party! and, thanks to the acting job of my ex, they all easily believe what he wants them to believe-that he and the AP are truly in love. I let them go too and I feel much more at peace

        • That’s the truth… they don’t want to miss out on the fun. My ex was well-liked and a source of entertainment (in a local band which provides an excuse to go out and get drunk with the gang, right?). Many of them witnessed the ugliness during our divorce; they saw my total devastation and the way he continued to pull shameless dirty stunts he throughout, yet they continued be supportive of him as well… He was crying about how he didn’t want a divorce and I was being an evil bitch!! It was as if the entirety of Switzerland thought he and I together were a lost cause, but they magically could help turn him around to do right by our kids and the replacement wife he quickly found. They played it out as if it would be mean of them to abandon him when he hadn’t done anything bad to them…

    • Yes, I’ve been beat up by some Switzerland friends and some Jesus cheater apologists for seeking help from family and friends through this nightmare.. saying.. “You telling people has hurt the poor sausage”. WTF?

      What about my hurt? Was I supposed to suffer in silence?


      • I heard from a few people (mostly ex and my ex-in-laws) that telling people why we were divorcing was a terrible thing to do. And I figure in their eyes they really thought this because while on one hand they were saying there was nothing wrong with cheating they really didn’t want people to know that he was a serial cheater. They’d rather go with the narrative that our marriage was dead and whoopsie, he happened to meet someone else as he realised this.

        Nope, not what happened at all but whatever. They can try to spin that all they want. I know what happened.

  • My ex was having an emotional affair, even told me that she was his “new best friend” and I had not been his wife or partner or real friend for “a while” (which really is complete bullshit). I also have documentation of him writing her poems and stuff like that. When we separated with the express purpose to work in our marriage he said separation were non exclusive and slept with AP. He refuses to consider any of what he did inappropriate or cheating. He was just a wounded soul. So far all of my friends have completely sided with me (not only about the affair but also recognizing he was a manipulative and controlling narcissist and I had suffered a lot of emotional abuse). I know that he has his groupies who think he is a knight in shining armor who was wounded, but thankfully we don’t run in the same circles. He doesn’t tell people that he is now with AP (because she lives abroad), but they spend all day chatting like teenagers. Today he is traveling back to Europe for “important work” and going to stay with AP until the end of the month (I try not to think about it, and just detach, because we are definitely no longer together). I do wonder if he will post more pictures of them together online (he posted some before we separated, I had so many people call me to ask what the heck was going on and eventually he took the pictures down but didn’t get why they were inappropriate).

    Anyways I’m glad I don’t have to deal with Switzerland friends, and Morten is trying to get back with me or I would probably lose my head. Right now your focus should be in rebuilding your life. Take this opportunity to cut anyone from your life that is not an instrument of healing and growth.

    • Stbx told me his AP was his “very best friend.” So, all the time they spent together I was at home manning the fort and caring for our children while they sat around stroking each other’s egos and telling get each other what they wanted to hear. I’m glad it happened. Now I know what kind of man he is.

      • It’s all about the kibble. If you get busy with kids/grad school/a stressful job, and can’t give them their well deserved kibble then they need someone who can. And it is really not their fault at all, because they were so darn “neglected”. At the end people like me ex will never be happy, they just don’t know how to be happy people, and we are better off without them.

      • I always wonder about these women who want to be with a man who will leave the wife and kids at home while he goes out and plays fun times with the side piece. Do they really think that this is a sign of a good guy? Or do they think they’re so absolutely special that the guy is only doing it because of their specialness and the horribleness of what it’s like at home?

      • I really resent having been used to care for our kids on the myriad nights my XW was out screwing around. They were young and one was very disabled. I could have used some help.

  • They says he’s sorry, huh? Well, lions don’t lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. These “friends” are not friends of yours. Go be mighty and forget the one-liners. They’ve already made up their minds. Let them have him. Sounds like they’re all perfect for each other.

  • C- congrats on your brave decision to call off the wedding and not go for reconciliation , therapy etc. You are so brilliant to have avoided a life of deception.Many of us chumps had red flags as big as yours but went on with the wedding (there is a fabulous CL entry on ominous signs that also ocurred during the wedding or honeymoon!) and all the rest (joint property, children, etc…) So consider this a wonderful gift to start a new life, which also means a new life away from friends who do not have your back.

    After Dday, the only friendship on my side who blamed me for the affair is over. The common friends who were really his group of friends are still siding with him, but that is because he got his lovers from that group. There are plenty more women in that group who are delighted that we got divorced so they can get him now..They don´t know they are competing with each other, and he will be happy to have them all. They also don´t know he had a first wife and cheated on her too. So, C, getting out of a circle of friends who doesn´t believe you, is either because they are cheaters or APs themselves or they knew something was going on and are helping him cover it because they feel guilty about it.

    I say, that the next time you get one of these phrases you just say “too bad you don´t believe the truth, I thought you were my friend…Bye!”

    good riddance…..

  • I agree with CL. Friends trust you and they believe you. On one level the social circle believing the cheater over the chump can be comforting. After all we believed our cheaters were honest, ethical and had integrity, and we LIVED with them. It really is no surprise they can convince other people they are honest and we are not.

  • [Annoying friend] “Matt says he didn’t do it.”

    [Response] “And that’s why the evidence I gathered was so valuable.”

    • @ Free Vixen

      That is the tack I have taken with the Swiss, almost exactly. For those with whom I am not close/are only in it for the gossip, my response is simply “I am a researcher for a living. I don’t draw conclusions about anything without concrete evidence.” Then I shut the whole conversation down. For others who are closer to the situation, I may be more verbose, but it’s the same tactic. “I know. I wanted to believe the best of him, too. Hell, I NEEDED to believe. I think that’s why I was so devastated when I was faced with all the evidence. It made it impossible to lie to myself anymore.”

    • But that turns into an argument of “What evidence?” and the next thing you know, you’re having your entire story picked a part like you’re a victim on the witness stand.

      It’s none of their damn business.

      • Except that I’m the kind of person who would happily share what evidence I found if asked!

        • Me too! I am ever so happy to share evidence with anyone….they don’t even have to ask 🙂

          • Me too. I shared the evidence with several of my close friends and family members. Pretty much cleared up any doubt. Luckily I was the one who had a lot of friends in our marriage. I kept the friends, and he moved and adopted OW’s friends and family. We don’t travel in the same circles any more, except we still have children in common. It’s all so strange after 36 years…

            • Same here. I got most of the friends because I was the one who made the effort with friends. He’s a sad sausage about this. I lost a few along the way, mainly because they thought it was too much effort to deal with angry, hurt, upset and slightly nutty Nord while I was trying to recover – which made me realise they were not a real friends and let them go.

              • I shared the evidence I had with my XW’s brother and said “Dan, I am about 95% certain Laurie is having an affair.”
                He responded” Arnold, why don’ t you crank that up about 5%.”

  • While the advice is spot on, let’s acknowledge that it SUCKS to have to find all new friends. It’s not fair. He’s the one who cheater, yet the chump has to find a new social circle.

    It would be so much easier to just convince them that Matt is a cheater. But that’s probably not going to happen, they will still be Switzerland. So C, you may be able to salvage a few friends (not with a one-liner, but with some quality heart to heart time), but most will probably have to go.

  • When they say, “Matt says he didn’t do it” you say, “Mind your own business.”

    C, I was in almost your exact same situation. I never caught my ex in the act; there was just too much circumstantial and verbal evidence from the OW for me to ignore. He swore up, down and around that he never, ever cheated, they were just friends, etc. And he protested his innocence to anyone who would listen.

    Unfortunately, I had to cut off a bunch of friends as a result. I didn’t appreciate being indirectly called a liar and being interrogated about my perception of events every time I spoke to these people.

    I don’t necessarily blame people for wanting to give my ex the benefit of the doubt (he seemed very sincere and earnest, especially to outsiders), but the least some people could’ve done (if they were really my friends) was keep their opinions to themselves.

    • I am in the same situation as you were Lulu… it sucks to not have clear evidence because they can gaslight you more effectively, and I don’t know about you, but I can get to where I feel like I’m losing my mind.. did I IMAGINE this whole thing? Then I snap out of it.

      What is so frustrating is these people don’t realize it would be so much easier to forgive them, even maybe reconcile, if they could be straight with us. But its much harder, in fact, impossible, if you get the sense that someone just isn’t coming clean. Lying destroys. My STBX just doesn’t get this because I have come to realize his values are not the same as mine. H really doesn’t think lying is a big deal and it’s because of how he was brought up. There is no way I am going to change this in him. It’s who he is.

      • newchump, I agree, it’s about the LYING. Because when we lie, we rob the other person of the right to be informed about THEIR OWN LIVES! It shows complete lack of respect, lack of caring and empathy, and lack of moral character.

        It’s the lying, even more than the affairs, I think, that destroys relationships, by showing us who our partner really is, and how much they actually care about us (zero being the answer to that one).

      • newchumppatl… you’re comments on this have been GREAT and so helpful to me!! Also from your previous commet that could be your onliner…. I discovered our values are not the same!

  • My one liner, ………. After all these years of knowing me you think I am making it up. Well I guess that old saying is true, birds of a feather…………….. ( smile and walk away) anyone who doubts you is not a friend or they are extremely naive. Either way they do not warrant your time and energy.

    When I first told a friend what had happened to my marriage she was shocked, but looked me in the face and said, it is had to believe this has happened but what I do know of you, your honest to the core so as crazy as it all sounds I believe you. This meant a great deal at the end I me as my XH never took responsibility and engaged in damage control from the get go.

  • Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    Matt has sex with skanks
    And lies to you

  • “If you believe him so much, then you marry him.”

  • C tell them “That’s what ALL cheaters say” because IT IS WHAT ALL CHEATERS SAY! Plus the “you’ve got no proof” I heard that one too! Good job recognizing he’s a low-life and moving on to better things! (((HUGS)))

    • Yes, the “you’ve got no proof” thing. LOL. As if that is what ultimately destroys things.. the lack of proof or the proof… it’s about the TRUST. The fact that you are battling with trust is the problem.. not the cheating itself. It’s the trust.

  • Yeah, I used to believe his lies too.

    Damn it, my work productivity is plummeting.

  • Thank God you caught him before you married him.

    Many here have poured decades of their lives into one-sided relationships that only became more and more one-sided.

    You may not realize it, but you dodged a bullet. It may not feel like it, but when you consider how much worse these things can be, you did.

    Now ask yourself what is up with you where you want to continue to engage with him via so-called “friends”? Fix that or suffer our collective fate.

    • Hear! Hear! I spent 30 years with a cheater. Take this gift and run with it!!! You’ve received some valuable insight and knowledge at a relatively young age. You’re already so wise! I think I would have made 100 excuses for his behavior. Keep moving forward… you’re a rock star in these parts! I’m cheering for you!!!

  • C-You are so mighty. Congratulations for that! Walking away before you commit more time to a cheater is awesome. He waved the red flag; you didn’t spackle; you recognized it for what it was and you respected yourself enough to stick to your standards.

    You should be proud but I understand how nerve wracking this all is. I think it’s best to remove all contact from anyone in your ex’s life that has interests at heart. Clearly if they are coming to you on behalf of him, they have his best interest and not yours, in mind. It sucks.

    You walked away from him so I suggest walking away from them too. Go cold turkey on everyone in his orbit and stick with people that aren’t trying to push you to take him back.

    I don’t have any one liners but I don’t think you need them. You got this one girl!

  • Be glad that these ‘friends’ are showing you who they are. I must still carry a mole or two in my circle, as ex is being given information about me or my sons that the ‘general population’ wouldn’t know. Drives me nuts. They guy abandoned us by moving 1500 miles away with his child-ho-worker and yet he is still nosing around my business. I really have nothing to hide, but just want him gone!

  • Why would he?

    Good liars ARE good liars because they never back down from the lie. If they didn’t play the part of a Good Person so well, they’d never get away with it.

  • How about “The Other Woman ‘s infectious disease specialist confirmed that the rash those two share in their genitals is from the same strand! ” and then change the subject!!! with a “What goes on in Vegas doesn’t always stay in Vegas. For instance, Herpes. That will follow you home.”

  • If you must, how about “I’ve moved on. So how about that/those ‘insert mundane subject here’?”

  • As far as your mutual friends go you must remember that they are victims of a master manipulator just as you were. As Mark Twain said “it is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.”

    In time they may come to see him as he is or they won’t. Your challenge is to accept that may never happen and to feel ok about it. Personally I would stay far away from them as it won’t help with healing and moving on and right now it should be all about you.

  • I personally feel challenged in this area — how to respond to peoples comments or oversharing. After the fact, I learned that my EX controlled the narrative. One of the choice bits was…”we had an open relationship”. News to me!

    It is tough when you want to roast his nuts over an open fire. But it gets you no where. People believe what they want to. My gut is that the guys in the group already know the truth…something about guy code.

    The mean part of me has this suggestion. “Listen between you and I, he gave me an STD. My doctor says the only way I got it was from him. I got a course of antibiotics, so I am OK now. But he won’t go to the doctor even though I begged him.”

    The diplomat suggests this. “I really loved him, but truth is that he’s never going to be ready for marriage. It breaks my heart, but it is best to end it now.”

  • They always deny. I would just give them an ” I can’t BELIEVE you just said that look ” and walk away. It’s very effective. Chump Lady is right, as usual. These people are not your friends. They are a bunch of sniveling gossips.

  • My comeback to anyone who asks what happened or makes a statement is:

    i say its a truth or dare situation asswipe dares to tell you he and I drifted apart, he moved out and found his true love everything is cool I still love karmarie so much and we are best friends!

    Truth: I say after thirty years I couldn’t wrap my head around sharing him with his whore girlfriend he was so trustworthy, but his lying, cheating, blowing up our financial and destroying our marriage and friendshipand ignoring our children was just too much to bare so I gladly handed him over to the great new twat. Her monkey, her circus.

    She better be glad I don’t want to go to jail or I would get two of those old fashioned metal apple corers and take out her eyes via the back of her head! Oh my did I just say that out loud? Hee her. Exactly what whore juice deserves. Asswipes punishment would be even better… Ah perchance to dream…

  • Hey, just a shameless plug for the New Book — but I have a whole chapter on Switzerland friends and how to respond to the Stupid Shit they say. (Plus cartoons!)

    • Yay, I actually don’t know where to get a copy of your old book, but I’m excited about the new one. CL you’ve made all the difference. Unfortunately I had to add your website to my daily time wasting counter, because I was spending too much time going over your articles :).

      • Divorceat25 – Time wasting counter? Could you maybe re-frame your time on CL as the cheapest, best therapeutic and immunizing investment you are making in yourself to avoid wasting time on future relationships with Cluster B’s at work and in life :)???

        • Oh I truly love and appreciate CL. I definitely feel that being involve in this community will save me from a lot of heartache and encounters with cluster B personalities. That being said, I’m a grad student and thinking is my currency. So when I’m at work I need to be able to stop thinking about my X and how unfair this all is. I’ve spent my first month of singlehood just browsing CL for several hours a day and ruminating about what he said an did or he did or could have done… It was time to stop. So I installed an extasion called ClearFocusd and added CL to it. I love this blog, and this community, but I just can’t let myself spend all day thinking about how shitty this situation is (even if it will turn out to be the best for me long term)

          • DivorcedAt25

            CL and CN saved my life. The support I have received here opened my eyes to the abuse I suffered for 41 years living with a serial cheater. X lived a double life or singlehood throughout the entire marriage.
            When my therapist stated on my first visit that It would take at least two years to even think about getting into another relationship I cried. It’s been fourteen months since he picked up a bar whore on our 36th wedding anniversary.

            What you might view as ruminating may very well be in your case. I view it as finally having a place where others can share their stories with those who understand and can offer support. Often times the support comes from similar experiences with the personality disordered.
            I learn something every time I come here and hopefully provide encouragement to others going through the process if having their spouse betray them in unbelievable and cruel ways.

            The goal is to reach meh. We have to shift our focus on ourselves. It’s a tall order given the harm these selfish assholes so carelessly inflicted without empathy or remorse. Rather than ruminating I view it as a process in recovery.

            • I completely understand your point. Each person has their own path to reach meh, and ruminating and getting as many resources from CL and CN certainly helps. In many ways stories such as yours inspire me, because I know that people have had to deal with worst assholes than my ex and for longer, and people are struggling and maybe even can’t leave their situation because of finances or special needs children. I wasn’t trying to discount how amazing this community is or how much it can help.

              It was a poor choice of words, but precisely because it helps me to read about CN and understand my situation better I’ve spent a long time in this website and the forums since discovering CL. Unfortunately, a lot of that time has been in my office, during hours I should have been using to advance my research. So I had to get a counter to limit my time on the site during working hour. It is a productivity app and design to limit “time wasting” but I didn’t mean to imply that CL was a waste of my time. Because it isn’t, at this point CL is integral to my mental health. But when look back at this year, I want to remember all good research I got done. I want to be able to come back in a few months and tell you guys that I’ve submitted my first paper for publication. That requires me working during my working hours.

              Keep being mighty!

          • Divorceat25 – I know from your previous comment how valuable and appreciative you are of CL and CN, I was trying to help you reframe your time here as the best investment possible in yourself, sorry that my comment came across harsher than I intended.

            Your comment about time management brought me right back to my own graduate school days. Time management is indeed critical, especially putting boundaries in place so you can discern when/what to say yes to and just as importantly what to say no to.

            You are mighty to have walked away from your ex so young and while in grad school! One of the biggest benefits from my outsider perspective is that you are now also freed from a tough two-body job search situation…

            Keep going Divorceat25, I wish you the very best as you continue on your path to Meh!

            • @Chumptitude, I didn’t think your comments were harsh, I think you made a valid point and I wanted to clarify my position, because I truly do love CL and the CN and I would hate for anyone to think I was belittling their process or their recovery.
              The lack of two-body job search is definitely one of the clearest upsides. I was so willing to just follow my ex everywhere (even though I’m the one getting PhD), and he would have never made similar sacrifices for me. At first I worried that the lack of his European citizenship would complicate my visa situation in the future, but I think that’s part of what he wanted me to think. At the end of the day, I’m brilliant (sorry for tooting my own horn there) and I will get a job offer and a work visa like so many other talented people, and without him more doors open than close.
              Although I’m still at 2 years out of trying to find a real job, so the more pressing concern is to get some papers out to publication.

  • Here’s my script:

    Well, friend, you tell me that Matt says he didn’t do it. I’m telling you he did do it. I left the relationship because I do not want to be married to a liar and cheat. Why do you think he’s still telling you he didn’t do it? He lost something good when he made his poor choices and he knows it. If I’m such a terrible, suspicious person, why would he even want me back? I’ll tell you why, because I’m not. I dodged a bullet when I got a glimpse at his true character before we married, and I am relieved to be well out it.

    You can give him the benefit of a doubt if you want, but I already did, and I already got burned, so please don’t ask me to put myself in harm’s way again. Maybe he will mend his ways and maybe he won’t, but it is not my problem any longer.

    Now, do you want to keep this conversation going and implying, whether you mean to or not, that I’m lying about how Matt treated me or do you want to order me another margarita and we can move on to a better topic?

  • I’m in agreement that you need new friends but if you must reply just say, “Why don’t you ask (name the other woman) what she thinks about Matt and his version of the truth?” Turn and walk away and keep on walking. Put that person’s name on a list and block them from ever contacting you again.

  • Say very sarcastically, “Matt deserves better than being with someone who doesn’t trust him.”

    • Oh I LOVE this. It’s a passive aggressive sparkly middle finger dipped in glitter then tied with a shiny “fuck you” bow. Playing them at their own game. Perfection!

      • Need a “LOVE” button, for both Working It Out and Ninja chump’s comments :)!

  • Lots of good advice! If it hasn’t been said yet, I would only add that it’s not hard to predict the next step in this situation. He will eventually realize that you truly are not, ever, going to get back together with him. Next thing these so-called friends will be hearing about is how effing crazy you were all along, boiling bunny and all that, and they will drop you like a hot potato.

    I agree with what CL and CN are saying, disengage yourself from them now while you are on a roll with being so mighty!

  • I always say “Yeah we got divorced. I didn’t like his girlfriend- she’s a bitch.”

    He tried to pin it on me with the whole we were just roommates and drinking buddies thing. Our friends knew the truth. The truth always comes out. Sounds like these folks are not true friends. Right! You cancelled a wedding for nothing. Whatever. Just say, wake up- you know me better than that I would not have broken off the engagement for nothing. Meanwhile- this dick hole is gas-lighting you. that is emotionally abusive- and wonder you feel like your head is in a blender,. It gets better.

      • @Ladystrange Ha! That was one my favorites! Douche. He now is in AA and wants to meet with me to do his amends. I don’t even know WHAT to think about that! A lot of our friends told me what he was saying- not to hurt me- but to let me know they supported me and told him- NO- she is your WIFE

        • I live in fear that I’ll get the “I need to make amends” 12 step call right day…but then I remember he is highly unlikely to make and keep a commitment to a program of recovery, just as he is highly unlikely to make and keep a commitment to anything in his life.

          • @Doop He texted me to say he will have been sober a year after the New Year and wants to meet then. Thought I should have a heads up so I can think about it. I just don’t know what to expect. Him admitting any sort of accountability is great, but nothing he says will take away the pain he caused me through his affair (+ a ton of other crap). My ex also goes through phases of “hobbies” -Running, collecting pens, collecting watches, and now AA and Jesus. He always said he was atheist for the 25+ years I’ve known him.


      ‘Matt DID do it.’

      And then hold up your hand in the classic ‘Talk to the hand’ stance while they blather on.

      Fix them with your best gaze of steel, and when they run out of blather, simply repeat,

      ‘Matt DID do it’.

      Rinse and repeat until they give up.

      However, what might be an interesting fallback position for you would be to create a website called ‘’ and post all the evidence there, and then give the URL to Switzerland friends and relations.

    • Back in our early thirties, jackass and i decided we maybe wanted to ‘experiment’ a little in the bedroom with another. We looked online here and there, maybe had some chats, but never panned out to anything. Nothing ever happened and it got dropped.

      OK – so when I find out about his little fuck phone and Yahoo accounts his defense is “What’s the difference between me having a sexting phone compared to what ‘YOU’ (yes, he said “YOU”) were doing online 13 years ago?” Are you fucking kidding me dumbass? Well gee – lets see.

      First – It wasn’t just ME online. The online chats 13 years ago was something WE were doing TOGETHER – as a couple.
      Second – There was no deception because we had both talked about it and agreed to it.

      So the difference is dumbass:
      I NEVER agreed to YOU going out behind my back and getting a fuck phone to sext other women.
      I NEVER agreed to your Yahoo accounts which clearly didn’t mention the fact YOU WERE MARRIED.

      What a pathetic idiot.

  • Matt is an idiot. People who believe Matt are idiots. Why would you want to stay friends with idiots?

    They have chosen his side, believing his bullshit. Because by saying “Matt says he didn’t do it,” they’re either fishing for details and gossip or saying, “I believe Matt, which means you are either a hysterical overreactor or a liar.”

    I highly support suggestions that you find another friend circle. This one does not support you or the very real pain you’re going through. They’re not “switzerland” people, they’re choosing sides – the sparkly “more social” side. In other words, not yours. It’s doubtful that you will change their minds.

    If you even want to engage with these people – and I think the “did you really just say that?” look and walking away is an excellent option – here are some options. Some of them will come off as detached, cool and full of meh. SOME of them.

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “OK, then.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: (cryptic smile) “Sure he does.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “How nice that Matt can believe that.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “It’s nice that you can believe that.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “I’m sure that helps him sleep at night.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “And that changes things for me, how?”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “I’m saying he did.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “The social media posts and pictures his girlfriend posted say otherwise.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: (Burst out laughing and pat them on the head like you can’t believe how stupid they are to believe such bullshit. Then walk away, still laughing.)

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “I’m sure if he thinks if he repeats that often enough, it will be true.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “Yep.” (Walk away)

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: Every time he says that, a cheating douchebag gets a new bottle of Axe Body Spray. It’s like angels and wings, but with more douchery.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “So did Bill Clinton, Jude Law, Tiger Woods, Jesse James, and that moron who was married to Christy Brinkley.”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “And you expected him to say, ‘Yeah, I’m a cheating douchebag who hurt and lied to the woman I was supposed to marry?'”

    Them: “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
    You: “Hey, look! I can fill out another square on my “Bullshit that Cheating Assholes Tell Our Friends” bingo card!”

    Seriously, join some new clubs, take some classes, meet new people, find something that takes up those hours you’re spending coming up with comebacks. You’ve already done the hard stuff, ditching this guy, accepting that all the plans for your life were derailed, faced the public discomfort of canceling your wedding. You can get through something as comparatively trivial as talking to his moronic messengers. They are the flies lingering on his bullshit, nothing more.

    • You need some sort of prize for that response. Like a snicker doodle or a hug or a “I hate assholes” t-shirt.

      • How about a t shirt with ‘Matt Did Do It’ on it, to forestall conversations?

        Or a whole range of giftware, like notelets, coffee mug, fridge magnets, pens, stress squeeze balls (how appropriate), scrapbooking accessories, picture frames, pin cushions, keychains, and perhaps handmade souvenir fudge, all embossed with the same magical four words?

        Christmas this year should be a breeze. Hey – hand made Christmas tree decorations in the ‘Matt Did Do It’ motif!

        When you are dealing with the terminally obtuse, you can never go too far.

    • Yes prize worthy response among many great prize worthy responses! I absolutely love Chump Nation!

  • The “friends” know perfectly well that your ex fiance cheated. After all, if it was documented on social media, they saw it as well, and believe me, they talked about it. They know he is lying. What they are REALLY telling you by acting as his water bearer is that they do not care about honesty, integrity, faithfulness or common human decency…. they simply want to continue their fun social life without the bother of all that. They want you to eat the shit sandwich so their Saturday night plans aren’t messed up.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that every one of the “friends” conveying Matt’s message to you is either: 1. a cheater himself/herself, or 2: not bothered by cheating and will cheat eventually on their significant other as well. It’s up to you to decide if you want to continue your association with such people.

    I like this quote from Maya Angelou: When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

    • Another thought…. I can also guarantee you that five minutes after Matt finds himself a new chump or officially hooks up with the AP, those “friends” are going to accept her as always having been part of the group, and you are going to be cast aside and forgotten, met with uncomfortable glances and muttered greetings should they bump into you around town. It’s sad and it’s hurtful and it’s hard, but that is what happens with people like your “friends.” Many here in Chump Nation know exactly what I’m talking about.

      Do yourself a favor, and move on before this happens. It will empower you, it will take your mind off Matt the loser, and it will put you in the strong position of having new, decent and moral friends instead of a pack of hyenas who probably are all diddling each other anyway.

    • This is the person who wrote CL … THANK YOU … all of you … gladit’sover I particularly love your comments … so true and so helpful

  • OMG – Burst out laughing PucksMuse!!!!
    “Hey, look! I can fill out another square on my “Bullshit that Cheating Assholes Tell Our Friends” bingo card!”
    That is waaaaay too funny – thanks for the chuckle. OMG I am going to laugh about that all day.

  • Switzerland friends are lousy friends. Ditch ’em.

    My ex had a few lousy drinking buddy friends who knew he was a cheater. They had lousy relationships themselves and all they did was drink and hang out at fancy restaurants they couldn’t afford. They sided with the cheater and it was no loss.

    Most of my friends weren’t neutral and over time have seen his shitty character truly revealed. Apologists for shitty behaviour don’t interest me as friends.

    Eventually true colours of cheaters are revealed. I’ve known a few cheaters and I have some to see that not a single one of them is a well-adjusted, happy person. Their lives are filled with drama, poor me behaviour and often multiple relationships that don’t last. (I only deal with cheaters in a professional capacity, they are not close friends.)

    Stay away from these losers. The best response is a good life.

  • I’m partial to maybe a fart gun or a whoopee cushion in response. Because if they’re gonna be a stooge we may as all get slapstick.

  • You know who believed me? The judge who granted me a Protective Order and kicked out the disordered asshole. My parents who have supported me emotionally and financially. Our three children who have gone NC with narc dad.
    You know who doesn’t believe me? His family, our mutual 30-year friends and the people we know from church. I didn’t get Switzerland; I got North Korea and their Dear Leader.

    Them: Asshole says you’re lying. He didn’t do {fill in the blank}.
    Me: I can’t help it if you believe his bullshit. That’s on you.

    And then I shrug, make that annoying “Whatever” face my kids taught me and walk away. Because I have everything that’s important to me.

  • One “friend” said she thought I was overreacting (she also said she had been on all 3 sides of the infidelity triangle. Well, then, she certainly spoke from experience, this very sober Quaker!)

    In response, and to prove my point, I emailed out copies of some of Crapweasel’s Craigslist come-ons to women half his age (pee-yew!, they were gross!), to a small group of people I thought were my friends. You know, to demonstrate the level of conniving and abuse.

    As for that, it got me branded completely nuts, crazy and unreliable…you know, me showing the evidence, that made me the crazy unstable one.

    So my friend group, who lined up in an uncanny way with my church circle, tossed me out on my ass.

    Lesson learned. Turn away, don’t waste your time justifying what you know to be true. If they don’t believe you, that tells you already what you need to know about those people.

    Oh, and watch Dr. Foster (BBC1) !! It does an *amazing* job of capturing what that experience is like.

    Good luck.

    • namedforvera: Is your “sober” Quaker friend by any chance from the Baltimore area? I won’t ask for any other info, but my “Spidey Sense” is tingling.

      • Ah, sorry–she lives near Boston–But she’s from an Ohio branch of lying Quakers…I never knew there was such a thing as a lying Quaker!! I am so innocent….

        • Ah. OWhore #2 lived/s in the Baltimore/DC area, and your description sounded just like her.

          Oh well, unlikely is run into her as I live considerably distant from there.

    • namedforvera, I had evidence in hand from a file I found on my ex’s computer. I asked my counselor about whether I should show it to OW’s family. She recommended I didn’t because she said they’d probably say I was crazy and made it up. She said that energy would be better put towards building my own life. After reading about your experience, I’m glad I took to her advice.

  • I agree with CL. These are friends you don’t need.

    My ex tried the same thing. Every time he saw me in public, he tried to tell me he had no idea who the other women were. He even tried to tell me he didn’t know who the one I caught him with was. He got that one pregnant and tried to say he didn’t know her. And I had evidence in which she DID name him directly and there were photos of him with her.

    He also tried to pull the “tell mutual friends she’s lying I’m innocent” bs. Here’s what happened:

    The ones who believes him are no longer my friends. The ones who believed me are still in my life.

    I broke up with him about 6 or so years ago. Probably longer, but I’ve stopped keeping track because I just don’t care anymore.

    The people who stopped being my friends also left my life for other reasons in addition to that. They turned out to be toxic people.

    You’ll find new friends and survive. You need people in your life who will look at evidence, not just take his word for it because they don’t want to rock the boat or admit he’s a trash pile. The people who believed me were shocked, yes, but they also had been there for the times he had treated me horribly and they saw some of the mask slip.

    Real friends don’t make you feel like your brain is in a blender.

  • I liked, “Matt’s a cheater and he lies to you and me.”
    ((Thenwalk away, or change subject completely))

  • She could say in a sympathetic way, “Yeah, Bill Cosby’s friends believed him for a long time too.”

  • “Matt says he didn’t do it”.

    “Matt is gaslighting you. Do not mention him to me ever again”.

    Get some new friends hun. They want to believe Matt.

  • After spending way too much time telling mutual friends the real story, and offering to show them the hard evidence I has gathered, I realized that, even those who did believe me, chose to pitch their tent in their own private Switzerland. I now pity them for their lack of courage.
    Now, I generally keep quiet about my personal life, but if I’m asked by people new to life (or old friends who I haven’t been in touch with since the whole thing happened), I won’t sugar coated it, but basically reply “I found out after we married that I believe in honesty, devotion and monogamy a lot more than he does.” I always use the present tense to state clearly that he remains unchanged.

  • So many similarities, my social circle is almost non existent compared to what it once was. People who I would never have imagined to side with ex have said things such as, “I find that hard to believe, he’s seems like such a nice guy,” or “that’s not what i heard,” “I doubt he would do something like that, he’s such a family man.” I found out he had been talking behind my back to these people for some time before his exit regarding how concerned he was for my mental stability, I was intolerable to live with, he’d add a few tears for dramatic effect from what I’m told which doesn’t surprise me.. I felt utterly helpless, at first I tried to explain and tell them the truth but I could see it in their eyes they didn’t believe me or they would cut me off with, Sorry, I just don’t see him being that way…, I was so hurt at first then I decided after a few attempts at trying to explain to deaf ears.. these people aren’t my friends, nor do they care about me. Now, I ignore them or pretend I don’t see them at all. I’ve had some people come running up to me in stores acting as if they’re excited to see me saying HI, how are you? I walk past them without saying a word.., the looks on their faces afterwards is priceless. I’ve had enough BS in my lifetime. As the saying goes, you find out who your true friends are during times like these..

  • Well, in Texas we might tell your ‘friends’ “Yeah, well he’s got horns holding up his halo”

  • “Matt says he didn’t do it”.


    “The day he stops telling lies is the day I’ll stop telling the truth”.

  • Today is my CL reading day! I read them all the weekly post at once. In my case I have my evidence in a save @ the bank (fb converstions with whore) In your case you do not have kids or married. You should have take screen shots of the whore account! Make a collage on FlipAgram and when a fUcktard of his friend ran in to you with nonsense send the “Presentation” via phone! @ some point she will show up him her! But as usual they met “after”. Always we look like the crazy ones. jUst to justify their actions… That why I have to go to the doctor to calm my nerves and not look crazy while I get myself together meanwhile they keep messing around. As we speak my bastard is drinking and listening to music. THis post give me an idea. This is my fantansy “vendetta” I will make booklets of FB conversation with whore & will give it to all his friends family after all is clear up! Because we ended up being the crazy, bads and means let do it then!

  • “He didn’t do it”


    “Were you in the room when he was fucking his whore? No? Then shut the fuck up”.
    “I thought you were smarter than that – to believe utter horseshit”.
    “He’d have to say that – have you seen the skank he’s fucking? She fell from the top branch of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down”.
    “Right-o. Do you also believe the bullshit spewing from his mouth that I’m mentally unstable too?”
    “The concrete evidence says otherwise, but of course he’s not going to show you that, is he?”
    “If thats the case, you better join the SECRET conga line of whores he has going now.”

    Theres plenty more of course.

    The important thing for you though, C, is that these situations are specifically for one purpose – to weed out who is a fuckwit and who isn’t. People who spew bullshit denials are people you shouldnt be friends with. You will never be able to trust these people again – they will run to Matt with everything you say, or worse, put their own spin on it. Not to mention the condescention. In your case you have concrete evidence that PROVES these people have no idea what they’re talking about at absolute best, and are liars at worse. Why even bother trying to even be casual acquaintances with scum like that?

    They aren’t Switzerland or ‘not choosing sides’ – they have chosen his side by passive resistance. Fuck those people.

  • Cheater started telling people he met OWife after we divorced but friends did not believe him. For those who had no clue and asked why we divorced, my response was “I thought we shared the same values but I found out we don’t. I am naturally monogamous and he’s not.”

    And if they doubt your word, move on to better friends. No sense in keeping friends who prefer to believe a liar.

  • C, You realized Mutt wasn’t a good long term plan and decided to pursue other interests (a life without the cheating, lying, a-hole). Good choice. If that was Mutt on his best fiance behavior, it wasn’t going to be pretty on down the road when you were a more captive audience. Chump Nation applauds your astounding mightiness, your fast action to dodge that whizzing poison dart, and your wisdom to toss those rose colored glasses to the side of the road in time to save yourself from years and potentially decades of wasted effort. If the dude doesn’t think you deserve the truth, he doesn’t deserve you. Period. End of discussion.

    And, since you are here, be careful not to take the jerk back when he figures out his mistake. To a disordered person, forgiveness can equal a license to do it again.

  • I understand your frustration. I caught him in bed, start naked with the skank-de-jour, and he denied, denied, denied. In the year and a half of fake reconciliation and the years that followed – up until this day, he denies it.

    I get it….head in the blender is a good analogy.

    You can’t control what other people need to believe, or what lies he needs to tell. You don’t need them to validate what you KNOW to be true. It stopped bothering me when I got that one thing. I knew, and at the end of the day it didn’t matter what anyone else thought.

    For the record, C….they know too.

  • “Nothing drives a person stark raving bonkers more than having her reality denied.” Said a mouthful there, CL.

  • It took me awhile to realize that I was doing with these Switzerland friends the same thing I did with cheater for so many years: assuming they are as honest and ethical as me. Many of them are not. Many of them ALREADY KNEW what the cheater was doing. Or they cheated themselves at some point or were an OW or OM. They aren’t going to tell you that of course, but it’s the motivation for pooh poohing what you claim cheater did to you. I am pretty sure that one couple in particular knew about the affair. Four days after d-day they invited cheater and OW to come to their summer cottage where we all used to hang out. They mailed me a “feel better” hallmark greeting card and never invited me to another one of their parties ever again.

  • Hi everyone … I wrote the letter .. … THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH. … I feel so supported!

    amazing advice!

  • I always knew he was up to no good with the married mother of four he was working with, and now i finally have proof via some fascinating email that have recently come into my possession. Seeing the evidence right in front of me like that put me straight on the road to meh with no turning back. It takes a special level of cruelty to make your recently given birth, postpartum depressed wife think that she’s crazy and SHE’S the problem when all the while you’re carrying on with your howorker.

  • If you still think you need a one-liner, try this: “Matt lies. Didn’t you know that all cheaters lie? And now he’s using you as a flying monkey. How does that feel?”

  • I overheard a guy talking to a couple of friends in the office next to mine. He was engaged, soon to be married and bragging about the HO he was doing. What amazed me was he wasn’t thinking about calling off the wedding or any such thing. Just cheating on his fiance and telling his WORK buddies about it.
    I wonder if the work buddies got invited to the wedding too. They know what an a** hole he is but they are still friends. They all are just sheep.
    That opened my eyes to these sleazebags.

    • I was working as a contractor on a cruise ship and could not sleep that night because I had a cold. An officer invited me to have a cup of tea, which sounded nice. As soon as tea was served, and right in front of the picture of his very recent wedding, he started to grope. I was not interested and soon left. I was mortified that these guys are actually proud to cheat. A woman is like a butterfly in their collection.

  • ….. Or
    Them: ‘ Matt says he didn’t do it’
    You: ‘ Wait, let me turn on the part of my brain that cares.’

  • I don’t know, Chump Nation. I’ve got a bit of a different take on this than most. Yes, there are Switzerland friends who suck beyond words. But how exactly do we know that’s who each and every one of these people are just because they have been conned? Matt goes and sheds some tears. He says he’s been wrongly accused. Their heart goes out to him. They feel like ‘Hey, I know this guy. He CRIED for God’s sake. He’d have to be a monster to be making this up.’ They may, in their misplaced trust, have no idea that that’s exactly what he is.
    So they see C, and think that maybe if they can just convey the idea that perhaps she’s mistaken, they will have played a part in helping out their friend. They may want to believe it because it means less awkward Martini Mondays, but maybe not. If you read her post above, NONE OF THEM HAVE HEARD HER SIDE OF THE STORY. They have nothing but very convincing Matt in their ear.
    If I, for example, was one of those supremely duped friends and I went up to her and said ‘Hey, Matt’s claiming to everyone that he didn’t do it’, and without any explanation from her I was just bounced out of C’s life (or given nothing more than a snarky one-liner) I’d be devastated to later find I was duped. And, I’d be so confused about why she didn’t just talk to me in that moment. Explain her side of the story. Yes, they may have handled it badly, but let’s face it. Break ups that alter our social circle can make things awkward as hell. People like harmony, and that alone doesn’t make them dicks. They may just not know how to address it. Let’s not demonize them before we know if they’re really demons.
    I suppose the reason I’m playing devil’s advocate is that broad, sweeping generalizations about others are almost never fair or accurate. Each person is complex, unique and deserving of a chance to not be lumped in with douchebags because they fail to know the proper etiquette in an intensely private matter that’s just been made public. ‘Awkward’ may not always equal ‘asshole’.
    How about going with ‘Do you care about me? Because when you say that, it makes me feel like you don’t. If you truly care about me and the devastation and pure hell I’m going through, ask me what happened and how I know for a fact that he cheated, and I’ll tell you. If you’ve already made up your mind that he didn’t, please just keep walking.’ I think this would get the attention of anyone worth pulling out a chair to talk to, don’t you? No snarky one liner* would ever do that.
    8 people or so said this to C. What if 1 or 2 are decent people as I described above, and would have reached out and been a support system if they’d had the full picture? Been a long term friend, maybe a friend for life? All I’m saying is, don’t be so quick to dump all the trash when there might be some diamonds in there. At a time like this, friends are a resource as necessary as air. You’ve lost so much already. Give them the truth (sans sarcasm or snark), THEN decide if they’re Switzerland or Allied Forces.
    Obtuse assholes who deny our reality and welcome the homewrecker with open arms? Trash. Friends who put an arm around us and order a bottle of wine to listen with a well-intending heart? Diamond. Tell the truth, and sort accordingly.

    *While there may be no need for a snarky one liner, some of the above were amazeballs…my personal fave is “Every time he says that, a cheating douchebag gets a new bottle of Axe Body Spray. It’s like angels and wings, but with more douchery.” Haaaa!! Brilliant.

    • How about, instead of blindly trusting this Matt, actually ASKING C what the go was?
      “Matt is going around saying he didn’t cheat, but you probably know more about the situation. Is that the case or no?”
      That is a non-douche way of clarifying the situation.
      I’d be well rid of ‘friends’ who just blindly trusted someone in a situation which involves any sort of cheating or douchebaggery. Its like hearing someone robbed a bank or murdered someone, and then responding with “He said he didn’t do it” and blindly trusting that.

      • I think the people in the circle of friends are way out of line even saying anything to C, except perhaps “sorry to hear about you and Matt”. Beyond that, the circumstances are None. Of. Their. Business. If someone offered to buy a bottle of wine and discuss it, I would be totally creeped out. Talking about infidelity after the fact is as much fun as discussing a car accident.

        • I must be unique then. Because after my husband 14 years abandoned me for his affair partner I didn’t even know existed, and left me to be a single mom of our one and two-year-old babies with no savings less than 24 hours after discovery, I would’ve given my left arm for a friend who would have sat down with a glass of wine and listened if I wanted to talk. And no, it wouldn’t have been ‘fun’, but I’d certainly expect that a true friend would be there for the un-fun things too. For me, not talking about what happened only increased my shame and pain, as if I somehow had to hide the truth for the sake of being ‘pleasant’. Trying to act as though someone didn’t just soul-rape me and leave my kids fatherless felt disingenuous, to say the least.
          My heart is heavy for C. I just know that replacing a real friend isn’t as simple as geography. If there could be a true friend in that crowd, I’d just encourage her to be willing to let them emerge, that’s all. It’s easy to make presumptions about the motives of others when you have been betrayed. Trust no longer comes naturally for me, and unfortunately I find that that now applies to the entirety of the human race. Best of luck, C!

        • The ‘none of our business’ ploy is PRECISELY the reason that Switzerland friends exist in the first place. Society has conditioned people to pussy-foot around situations like this. Fuck that.
          If someone said to me ‘sorry to hear about you and Matt’ – it sounds almost passive-aggressive, it would piss me off more than actually lending an ear.
          Why is it that the first go-to saying, with every bad thing is ‘sorry you feel that way/sorry to hear’? Its bloody condescending, because 9/10 times the person saying it doesn’t give a crap.
          Less condescending responses would be “Thats awful – is there anything I can do to help?” (and actually help, instead of offering shallow words).

          • PS: Its not about forcing the person to discuss the situation, btw. That, obviously, is over the line.
            Its about offering the door to be opened, that the person smells bullshit and is offering you to tell your side of the story, if you want – instead of blindly trusting a liar. Pretty much every time, people will correct said bullshit, and it just needs to be the facts – doesn’t need to be dramatic.

      • That is a good idea. ‘Are you asking if I believe him” or are you saying “You believe him?”

  • Treason has a point. And i do think its easier to be fooled than to recognize the con, which is why so many chumps, myself included, find it hard to trust. We got blindsided because of our belief in the decency of others. I can think of a dozen comebacks, “if you believe him then please leave your wife/girlfriend alone with him for a day” or just be silent and walk away. But there is power in truth, without emotion or embellishment or frankly injecting a good deal of pain (because there are a lot of idiots that think if you show emotion you still have something for your ex), simply state the facts and tell that person “whether he agrees or not does not matter. The facts matter. He crossed too many boundaries to continue to be in my life. I value what I require in a partner more than I value doing what is socially acceptable.” And yes, then make a value judgement. I have had many of my ex’s friend stop in and ask if what she was saying was true that I was cheating. I appreciated the fact they would give me the benefit of the doubt and many walked away from her once they knew the truth. People do make up their minds but for odd reasons, and if you attack their innocence they place value judgements on that, which is why, as much as I crack up over the one liners, a sober dissertation of the truth is better. It may take some of matts friends a while but they will see him for what he is. In the meantime i agree with cl. Find a new place to live, move away and move on.

  • Reason, I dont agree. One should not have weed out nor find the diamonds in the sludge. Anyone with half a brain knows break ups are painful… No matter the reason. A ‘ friend’ walking up to u saying ‘ He didnt do it’ is a messenger. A messenger for Matt. Doesnt matter the intention… Good or bad… Its still a side. Whe and if these people ever discover the truth it is up them to sort thru their friendship with Matt and if , and I mean if, they were duped and a friend of integrity they will seek C out and apologize.
    Secondary wounding by well intended friends is also soul crushing. It minimizes damage and makes the person question if the were really wounded and/ or blowing things out of proportion. Its a second kind of mind fuck.
    I was in a situation like that. Had couple friends. Her husband left unannounced her and their 3 young children with an empty bank account to be with his AP. There were people who said ‘ you dont know the whole story’ I sided with her. And drew my line in the sand. I was comfortable with my decision. I didnt need to hear both sides to know it was wrong.
    Friends have brians and options. If they are being manipulated like silly putty and make a decision or say a comment based on being manipulated then it on them to fix it when the do know the truth if they ever do. Saying ‘ Matt didnt do it ‘ is taking a side … Not Switzerland. Avoid secondary wounding. And be open to listen to a friend who returns with an apology for being duped. If they are a friend worth having they will make their way back to u with an apology.

    • Hear, hear, TheClip. I had a fairly close friend do the same. Buggered off with her AP, one of her other “friend’s husbands” and that was it. I told her she was a selfish, gutless bitch, and the friendship was over. Fuck her, She (they) devastated two families – who after nearly two decades are all far better off without them!

  • How about just saying, “Matt Lied.” Then move on with the conversation. If they ask for proof just rub through what you did for CL. Politely say there it is and I am done and talk about other things. Do not give second hand cake by dwelling. talk about the friend or your life now.

    • Choked laughing as when I read your first sentence all I could see was the scene in The Lord of the Rings when creepy, snarly Gollum, in response to betrayed Frodo saying, “Smeagol PROMISED!” says: “Smeagol LIED!”

      So it would be AWESOME to say “Matt Lied!” in that creepy Gollum voice.

      I think I’ll keep this in reserve for when folks ask me about Fucktard.

  • What I now say to people is sort of a one linner. I say it and move on. If they wish to dwell or in someway pull you back to him, CL is right they are not your friends. Let them go.

    That being said here is my reply,”she just had one little problem I could not overlook. (Pause for effect) She liked to sleep with other men.

  • “Matt says he didn’t do it”

    Of course he does because he believes his own lies.

    ” Matt says he didn’t do it”

    Good for Matt

    “Matt says he didn’t do it”

    He said the same thing to me, except I didn’t believe it based on proof.

    “Matt says he didn’t do it”

    I obviously don’t believe him which is why we are no longer together.

    “Matt says he didn’t do it”

    That’s why I didn’t marry him.

  • “Matt says he didn’t do it”

    Phew, I’m glad I didn’t believe him when he told me the same thing, or I would be married to a cheater!

  • I canceled 2 weddings before I married another cheater and stayed for 31 years. (point is they don’t change) Lies are always lies, partial truths are lies too. AND they only tell you what they think You know. Let go of your past (Matt & Company) and what these non essential people are doing to you. Wishing for the perfect zinger will only keep you stuck in the past. What you FRAME is what you FOCUS on. I am an expert, take my advice….

  • I’m with some of the other commenters who mention how long reality takes to sink in, for some of us (I was told, having never suspected a thing, so I was a 100% believer straight away) and then sometimes it can take a while for the Swiss, too! It may take a little time, but a succinct mention of having evidence proving otherwise, and the benefit of the doubt – FOR A SHORT WHILE – while they get their head out of their arse…then a sharp severing if the arse remains stuck too long should about do it…

    In my case, I live in the same small town, and culled almost everyone. The problem being that my cheater IS actually a good guy (95% of the time) who owned his shit in having an affair, and was deeply remorseful and embarrassed at his shittiness, fronting up and telling the truth to anyone who asked. Several problems with that. He still did it. Other people feel you “need to forgive and take him back,” and you look like the bitch. “She must have been a right cow for him to cheat, because he is such a great guy.” Yeah, he is. But for fifteen months, he wasn’t, he was an utter arsehole, and he broke my heart, screwed with my definition of friendship, exposed the kids to threats and a totally screwy bunny boiler’s rage, mindfucked our young adult kids in setting them up for future shit no one wants their kids to have to deal with (“oh, they’re fine” – yep, so was I after my parents, but it affects you, forever) and fucked around in my homes with someone posing as my friend, someone I spent “quality time” with. It’s a total mindfuck, and I am slowly “moving on” but without those who judge me because I couldn’t live with the man I previously totally adored. I thought I was a perceptive person, but there was a lot of deadwood to prune! And prune I have!

  • I’m sorry this happened to you. Your ex is a psychopath and cares for no one but himself no matter what he tells you or others. Pyschopaths don’t like getting caught. Ever. He will deny and gaslight you and others even with proof; or he will turn it all around and blame you for his bad behavior when the the evidence comes out. Both he and his skank are horrible, shameless people with no souls. I HAVE BEEN THERE! It is maddening, but you can never go back. If you need a one liner use, “I know the truth and so does Matt. That’ all I am going to say.”

    He is a selfish piece of shit trying to manipulate you. I’m glad you are out of this and are staying strong.

  • Follow chump Lady’s advice and get yourself a new set of friends. It’s not that hard to do. I divorced when I was 42 and realised that I had excised everyone out of my life who hinted that they were still in touch in my exhusband.

    I realise also that I have avoided a lot of drama. Can you imagine the 3 way conversations that could have gone on? The well meaning friends who give your exH the right of first refusal to their parties while you get the invitation at the last minute and so on.

    I also don’t have to worry about my exH highjacking my new friends. Which is something that you should be concerned about as well.

  • “Matt’s lying.” End of convo, no discussion, anything else is 100% none of their business.

    Can I just say, meanwhile, how impressive it is that you responded to his gasligting with “see ya?” I would LOVE to be able to do that, and to me it shows that you’ve got this thing pretty much licked. The default response is to question yourself and try to see the other side (oh so tempting but BAD BAD BAD BAD!!!! All the bads). So the mere fact that you have not and will not do this says to me that you’ve already won. These are just other people who haven’t. If they’re lucky, they may get there, but for the moment they’re still playing the default role of peripheral co-chump. Don’t let them drag you down.

  • I, too have a hard time accepting that so many people seem to take the side of a cheater/liar and easily believe their lies. In my experience, they get even more defensive of the cheater if you want to offer proof, pictures or evidence. You are getting good advice to just forget those people as they don’t matter and probably even if you give them evidence, they will view you as the one with the problem. I need to take this advice myself and just accept this crazy world as it is! I know the same people defending someone I know as a sweet innocent, even a victim in her failed marriage would be appalled if they heard these same details about somebody else who they were not invested in already as a friend, relative, or new love of their great friend.

  • First of all, GREAT call on dumping him. I understand it hurts now, but you have no earthly idea of the long-term misery you have saved yourself and your family too. My goodness, don’t ever look back.

    When I found out my mild-mannered, “great-guy” husband was a serial cheater, I remember my best friend encouraging me to work it out for the sake of my kids. “Every relationship has problems, are you sure you want to Lise all those years? What about your children?……” Guess what? My best friend was a cheater too. She forgot to mention that to me.

    Before I was married, a friend from high school “felt so bad” when I broke up with two of my long term boyfriends, that she had to run and date them as soon as possible. Ex-friend.

    Trust yourself and your decision. You have no idea what really goes on in these people’s lives. You do you.

    You don’t owe anyone an explanation and I would be pissed if any “friend” didn’t try and comfort me. I agree, they, like the cheater, just want to sweep that ugly mess under the carpet so they’re not inconvenienced. These are not good friends. They should be dumped with the cheater.

    Amazing what assholes people can be.

  • I can relate to these aholes rewriting history. Having tangible evidence of his initial affair and being able to provide that evidence in court is helpful to me, even all these years later, as my X is a wealthy manipulator and liar…all of that can be crazy making behavior…or as you so aptly described as your brain in a blender. “Here is your brain with a non disordered man. Here is your brain with a disordered individual.” Anyway, yes, get away from the plastic superficials….life is too short to include them. As long as you aren’t invested in convincing them, I would want to say, “I know that Matt doesn’t want to own his adultery, however evidence proves otherwise. As the old adage says: ‘Actions speak louder than words.’ This is especially true with Matt these days.”
    Damn…hang in there. You aren’t alone. I totally identify with your situation. Mine hasn’t tried to lie about not cheating YET, but he did manage to have our papers sealed (because he is such a celebrity in his own mind). Fortunately, copies exist and her name is in black and white.
    Either way, you KNOW YOUR truth and who old Ratt is to YOU. I have come to find that one true friend is way better than 1,000 superficial bastards. They can’t be inconvenienced by your truth. Screw ’em…before they, like Ratt, screw you more.

  • I know this is a little old but I haven’t found what I want to say in the comments so I’ll say it.

    First off, she lives in a small town, folks, these aren’t her friends–they are her neighbors, and the only way she can “dump” them in is move away. You don’t understand, till you live in a small town yourself, how stuck you are with people, and how much reputation matters, how much “playing the game” at least enough to keep them from ganging up against you matters.

    Second, I have a few one-liners. You want to not bad-mouth him for the sake of your reputation, I totally get that. I’d say go for Miss Manners/Etiquette Hell style restraint, where you say much less than you mean but what you mean is painfully clear.

    Mild version: “That’s very interesting.” Or “That’s nice.” Said with a cold look, a little bit blank, raised eyebrows or whatever. Subtext: This topic is totally inappropriate and I will not discuss it. Rinse and repeat as needed when they persist. I mean repeat the phrase exactly: “That’s nice.” “But he says you totally misinterpreted blah blah blah…” “That’s nice.”

    Stronger version: “I know.”/”I know he says that.” If the person deserves it, you can load this with a world of insult. There’s a range. You can say it flatly, or with a little trying-to-be-patient edge, or really pointedly, or you can draw it out to “I know he says that,” said in a slow, clear, patronizing tone like you’re talking to a first grader who is self-importantly informing you the world is ROUND, no it REALLY IS. Subtext: You moron, do you really think you’re the only person he has offered this information to? Do you really think when I caught him out he shut his mouth and went running to you???

  • My ex is still telling people he was “lonely in the marriage” and I was “cold and always wanted to be alone” and I never participated with the kids (one his, one ours). Of course he leaves out the 40+ CL skanks he had BDSM sex with throughout our entire 11 years together. Maybe I was cold, but it’s only because my gut was telling me to get far away, while I suppressed and tried my best to believe in him. He’s so delusional, its mind blowing. Yeah, you screwed the guidance counselor and every possible meth head in the tri-county area but boohoo your wife was cold. What a fuck face.

  • My take on the people who take sides or remain in Switzerland:
    Smart people have the capacity to think for themselves. They take the information from one side (usually the cheater who quickly engages in damage control, to save his own image) and they run it through their brains, through their common sense (something that narcs and psychopaths don’t have).
    They know it is just one side of the story. And they know when something is not adding up. They know when something is missing. If they know enough, then they might even tell off the cheater.

    Dumb people can’t think for themselves. They just take as the Truth whatever they are told. The funny thing with these people, is that this sort of “thinking” doesn’t get them far in life. They have their own issues. Some may call it Karma.

    So in the end, you get to cull your friends and the very few you are left with are actually the smart ones. That’s a solid foundation for a great life! Embrace it and enjoy it!

  • I am only 5 weeks post ‘I finally kicked his lying, cheating ass out’ after 4 years of a million second chances. Now he’s positioning everyone (family and friends) that he just should never have married me 26 years ago (after sending me constant over the top love texts every day until I kicked him out’. I want to post this on my FB wall today so all the mutuals see it, along with the ‘Can’t wait for the next 26 years with you my darling’ anniversary card he gave me in January 2019. I want to post it before he announces he’s official with her but everyone keeps telling me not to aggravate or expose him further until my settlement is in my hands. But here is what I would love to post.

    I am going to make a prediction. At some stage very soon Ad***n is going to announce that he has a ‘new’ girlfriend called E*a. She’s South African, has 2 grown up daughters and used to be the receptionist at Shittylife church where he worked as the construction manager. How can I predict this if they are not already together? Because she’s not his ‘new, post-break up with me’ girlfriend. They’ve been together for the last 4 years of our 26 year marriage and the only reason our marriage ended. We separated and had counselling over it a couple of years ago and on 11 March 2019 I kicked him out suddenly to live with his parents for his continuous lies, betrayal and gas lighting of me that their affair was over as yet another new batch of damning evidence came to light. Their relationship has never been over. I have more hard evidence than you would ever want to see (but you are welcome to it). Now let’s see how long my ‘impossible prediction’ takes to come true … either I’m psychic or I know a lot more than you do about this, given that their romantic relationship sabotaged my marriage for 4 years … If you need proof and have a full day to read through it all, you only need to ask to see it. If you have any questions I’d be very happy to answer them for you truthfully.

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