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UBT: Michelle Duggar’s Marriage Advice

Photo credit: TLC

Michelle Duggar (of now-disgraced “19 Kids and Counting” fame) totally creeps me out. I don’t know if it’s the dirndl skirts, her squeaky Romper Room voice, or the 1980s crunchy hair (with 19 children, how do you find the time for so much hairspray, Michelle?)… Or maybe it’s spawning Josh Duggar? That chummy family values advocate/gay basher/child molester/Ashley Madison client?

Anyway, the whole lot of Duggars gives me the heebie-jeebies. But it wasn’t until Michelle’s marriage “advice” hit the news this week that I figured out the ick factor — she’s just like the RIC unicorns.

  • Advocates one-sided, unilateral, oppressive concept of marriage? Check.
  • Preaches that you can compel people into Godly behavior with your goodness? Check. (Hey, how’s that Christian retreat working for Josh?)
  • Believes in marriage at whatever personal cost? Check. (Nineteen children are a JOY!)

So with that in mind, I decided to put Michelle’s recent marriage advice through the Universal Bullshit Translator.

Gala had only been married for three years, but she had very wise advice. I was about six months out from getting married, and was just all bleary eyed and in love. I couldn’t wait to be married and be called “Mrs. Jim Bob Duggar.” That was the dream of my life.

What girl doesn’t dream of being married to a helmet-haired Howdy Doody with a perpetual hard on for Jesus?

Makes the UBT bleary eyed to think of it.

She told me: “Michelle, I know you’re so excited. You’re a bride-to-be, but some day you’ll be at this point. I’ve been married three years and I’m still happily married. I have one child, we’re expecting our second and I’m big pregnant. You’ve got to remember this. Anyone can iron Jim Bob’s shirt, anybody can make lunch for him. He can get his lunch somewhere else.

You better starch that collar just right, Michelle, or Jim-Bob’s going to be hunting for baloney sandwiches at some other lunch counter.

But you are the only one who can meet that special need that he has in his life for intimacy. You’re it. You’re the only one.

Well, there’s his hand and the rest of Christendom. But yes, Michelle, you are his wife. Only you can accept the Special Mission that is Jim-Bob’s Need.

So don’t forget that, that he needs you. So when you are exhausted at the end of the day, maybe from dealing with little ones, and you fall into bed so exhausted at night, don’t forget about him because you and he are the only ones who can have that time together. No one else in the world can meet that need.”

Actually, any number of people or devices can meet that need. And as much as the UBT favors being game and giving, no loving spouse is going to force themselves on you when you’re butt-tired.

Don’t forget about him? What the fuck does that imply? His NEEDS Are The Most Important Thing. His hard on is more important than your children, your unfolded laundry, and yourself.

Hey, this isn’t patriarchy and entitlement — no, it means you’re special!

“And so be available, and not just available, but be joyfully available for him. Smile and be willing to say, ‘Yes, sweetie I am here for you,’ no matter what, even though you may be exhausted and big pregnant and you may not feel like he feels. ‘I’m still here for you and I’m going to meet that need because I know it’s a need for you.’ ”

The UBT thinks the Duggars should “joyfully” shut up.

Michelle? Whatever you’re truly feeling, be inauthentic. Stuff it down into that little corner of your soul that only Jesus understands. Plaster a smile on your face. Submit! It’s what God wants. It’s what Jim-Bob wants.

I’ve realized the sweetness of that through the years. While I am always joyfully available for him, in turn, he’ll lay down his life in any way.

Opportunities for sex? 24/7.

Opportunities for Jim-Bob to take a bullet for his family? None forthcoming as yet.

He will sit there and listen to everything I need to tell him because he knows that I’m there for him, too.

Blah, blah, blah. Jim-Bob is mentally undressing you. How about we try for #20?!

I’m meeting his needs, he’s meeting my needs.

My needs are Jim-Bob’s needs. I have no needs. Smiles!

We’re willing to be there for each other. And each one of us has different needs in a marriage relationship and that’s what’s so precious.

Jim-Bob’s hard-ons are precious. Like pretty tea-cups or Hallmark figurines or wildflowers pressed in a family Bible. I cherish every one. 

I’ll share this advice with Jill so she knows that she’s got to be a wife first and then later, Lord willing, she’ll be a mother. Her responsibility before God and Derick needs to come first. It’s not just me and the Lord; it’s me and the Lord and my husband.

That’s quite a menage a trois.

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  • Eh, it’s almost too easy to debunk her advice… like shooting fish in a barrel.

    The whole subtext of this, of course, is that if Jim Bob does stray, it’s HER fault.

    Sex is all about meeting HIS needs. Women don’t crave sex or intimacy; we’re just semen depositories and infant incubators.

    I would say to her “go to hell” with her stupid ideas, but it’s clear she’s already living it.

      • Yeah, that last one was pretty brutal… I had to stop reading for a bit because it was getting me too pissed off.

    • I’m still not getting it, why do they use not getting enough sex as an excuse to stray? Someone I know told me he cheated on his woman for that reason and now they are all fine and dandy again because she’s giving it up.

      my cheater never gave me enough sex, and still went off for more. I was more than available, I was always thinking of ways to wake his tired ass up.

      • OMG THIS! “my cheater never gave me enough sex, and still went off for more. I was more than available, I was always thinking of ways to wake his tired ass up”

        Of course that was before I found out about his secret asian massage parlor, Craigslist, & iPorn addictions.

        What a monumental waste of 16 years of my life in a so-called marriage.

        • If 19 children and always being available seems like a sign of getting enough sex, but Josh Duggar is still on Ashley Madison? How can this stupid woman dare to give advice, even on her own miserable terms?

        • Midlife, they use it as an excuse to stray because that’s the only way they get their Poor Sausage brand Kibbles’NStrange (TM). Even if it means they have to *pay* for said Kibbles’NStrange. Joke’s on cheater I guess…

          I made lots-o-sex my plan for our relationship because I thought it was a fair trade for the badly-needed warm affection of afterglow that I thought required to feel loved. Even if it meant re-enacting porn scenes – the SAME porn scene – each and every damn time, and having to satisfy myself each and every time because, well, those porn positions are all about camera angles, not rubbing parts together so it feels good. And did I get my much-valued afterglow? Nope.

          Joke’s on me, I guess.

  • I wish this warped view of sex in marriage was limited to just the Duggar crowd. It is not.

    Talk about taking the joy and love out of a relationship! It is a recipe for resentment…not a healthy marriage.

    • Sadly this type of advice isn’t foreign to me. My ex was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. No matter how tired I was from tending to two sick children all night long…it felt like just one more damn thing I had to do before I could get some sleep, which I desperately needed. Guess it was my fault because I wasn’t more “joyful.” It was during this time when I first started finding love notes in his pockets. I ended up sick with cancer because of the stress.

      This type of advice hurts both husband and wife because it’s teaches that one person is supposed to sacrifice everything for the other’s happiness. Believe me, no matter how much I “joyfully gave,” it didn’t bring about the increased emotional intimacy I craved. In fact, it often left me feeling empty and alone.

  • Bravo to the UBT for taking this one on.

    The whole thing reminds me of the “stay sweet” expectation rampant in the polygamist culture.

    Girls are meant to be nice…and pretty…and helpful. But no other emotions. They couldn’t possibly be tired, or sad, or heaven forbid, mad, of all things. Just pleasant and nice, thank you very much.

        • Very appropriate MP quote ElectricTulip! Mehphista, that’s a very innovative idea to “rid ourselves of the surplus cheater population”. Would we sell them by the pound or kilo? Would that be “on the hoof”? Where could the proceeds go? Just pondering…

          • I thnk a few days of aversion therapy in a rat maze would be appropriate, but they might just get off on the attention……so maybe-

            Grind ’em up for fertilizer and use it to grow roses to give to nice people? Anything else is futile.

            This IS all in jest-I checked out of the absurdity that is organized religion years ago….and I don’t wish my cheater dead-he has humiliated himself more than I ever could, because he become ‘that guy’. Yep, he kept his job, place in society, friends, etc-he just swopped out his slave.

            Last time he tried to raise some shit/gaslight me and the Kiddo, I just said, “You have Schmoopie to absorb all your bile now. No doubt she will stick by you as you stuck by me. Cheerio.” Since then, NC (except some business, which is about to conclude).

            • Fabulous come back! Wish I were this quick. I’ll never get the chance. He’s too cowardly to talk to me or his adult children. I renounce his named and have renamed myself as I don’t want to be associated with the piece of s***!

    • ….but sperm ARE wasted. Only one (or two or three) egg(s). They don’t consider the rest dieing to be wasteful? *mind boggled*

      • Oh it’s just Monty Python, very slightly exaggerating as usual. Funnily enough when I looked for a link to the song the first comment on youtube was ‘The Duggar Theme Song’.

    • Electric Tulip, my new husband can sing every word of the “every sperm is sacred” song and does so to make fun of the whole idea

      • Oh, she’s not saying Anna’s at fault. That’s wouldn’t be loving and “sweet.” She’s just saying that the man is never ever responsible for controlling himself. It’s up to the wife to follow him around like one of those fire department trampolines, to catch his penis if it ever falls out of his pants.

        Wait, you say her son has a penis? Well, I guess that means he’s not at fault, then. It must be the fault of his fire department trampoline… Oh, yeah, I guess it IS Anna’s fault. But she didn’t say that. Nope. She’s too sweet say that.

        • This! Yes, it’s amazing how these fundie women are supposed to blindly follow & “service” their husbands yet won’t give them ANY responsibility for controlling their hormones.
          They seem to believe all men, even their moral & godly superior husband, are incapable of refraining from becoming drooling cavemen at the slightest peek of skin/female form.
          I read that the Dugfar den its actually use the code word “Nike” to alert the guys to stare at the ground when they’re out in public and an “inappropriately dressed” girl walk by. Makes me wonder if there’s a code for the girls to look away when a shirtless stud jogs by…

          • So weird how teaching the world that yoga pants are the work of the devil (no seriously, Google a few Christian blogs about the risks to purity caused by lulu lemon and the like) could cause those kids to think that wanting fun potentially different sex with their partner is perverse. Their women are put in such a terrifying “mom box” there’s no way a husband could think of them as capable of having the same kinds of wants. And she’s so meek she probably wouldn’t know to ask. God help them all.

    • That was my first thought as well – a passive/aggressive jab at Josh’s poor wife who is dealing with 4 little ones alone and reeling from the discovery that her oh-so-Godly husband was online looking for rough sex. Oh, and who wasn’t “meeting his special needs” when he was 15 and fondling his younger sisters?? Were they supposed to be meeting his “special needs” at that point until he could find a willing and passive little wife? Uggh. Just…uggh.

    • There was no doubt in my mind that she would find a way to blame Anna for Josh’s sheet playing with online whores. Anna being able to have only one baby a year sent him to the other vaginas to cope with his depression. Knowing that in the future he would marry Anna led him to molest his sisters as a teenager. Bottom line…’s all the wife’s fault.

  • The whole lot of them make my flesh crawl. One day one their kids who manages to escape this mindfuckery is going to write a tell all biography that will curl your hair. This family is the embodiment of psychopathy.

    • I’ve followed the Duggars for years, if for nothing else than the train wreck effect (don’t want to watch but can’t look away). I knew sooner or later the skeletons would come barreling out of the closet and this past year it happened. Looking into my crystal ball of inequality, bigotry, and oppression, I foresee the following in the next few years:

      -Josiah will come out as gay. Flamboyantly gay. Like Broadway gay. (Eat that, doughy faced Josh!)
      -Joy will be a lesbian soccer or weight lifting coach
      -Jinger will flee the compound and write a tell all book (check out the Free Jinger website)
      -Jessa will end up divorcing Ben
      -Someone will do jail time related to their vague, shady business ventures(Josh, Jim Bob, or perhaps Derrick)
      -Michelle will try for yet another baby via medical intervention or try to adopt foreign children to get that one last 1hr TV special
      -CYS will remove the youngest girls from the house. I’m sure there’s another “Josh” lurking in that family.
      -One will end up commiting suicide (which totally sad and I hope it doesn’t really happen). Jana and Jon David seem the most likely.

  • I’m all for God being in my marriage…. bring Jesus too…and the Holy Spirit….but what I can’t stand is the ONE sided “advice” this is. I WAS a submissive Christian wife….and what did it get me??? What Gala said….I was doing his laundry…cooking…taking care of his kids and packing his lunch…but he was getting his needs taken care of by other women. Gala advised Michelle wrong. See the wife has the bullshit job and the man gets to get his needs met by her and his little side piece. I am NOT the only woman who can meet HIS NEED.

    I had needs…like I needed a WIFE. I needed someone to do my laundry, grocery shop, run the kids, cook, clean and perform sex acts on me……
    I’m a Christian woman…..and I don’t buy into that crap for a minute.

    And the only laying down my husband did for me was his dirty clothes….his dirty dishes and he laid another woman.

    • “See the wife has the bullshit job and the man gets to get his needs met by her and his little side piece”

      Yup! The wife has the “job” while the cheater husband gets the “vacation”.

      What’s fair is fair…right?

    • “the church teaches that love always gives, hopes, perseveres, never gives up, never fails.”

      I totally believed this myself. It was so hard to believe that I couldn’t love enough, or pray enough to change things.

      • I wanted my husband to love me more than I wanted anything else on earth…my WORST fear was that he didn’t. I used to read the “Love Chapter”…love is patient [no] love is kind [nope, surely not that one] it is not pompous or jealous [this would indicate he doesn’t love me or anyone]hmmmm it not rude, does not seek its own self interest, not quick tempered or inclined to brood over injury…complete fail.

        one day after he died, I found an “anger inventory” (from the era of OW, so whatever that was worth) saying that his anger for me was worsened because he “never loved me” my worst fear staring me in the face…and yet -the earth didn’t crack open and swallow me up …the birds still chirped and the sun came up the next day.

        I still believe in the “Love Chapter” …it is all true – he didn’t act like he loved me because he didn’t. He was a narc, so on some level, he couldn’t.

        But I dusted my bad self off and when I remarried, I had someone read “The Love Chapter” reading…and the reader was none other than my deadhusbands cousin who knew the WHOLE UGLY story. Doing that felt really rebellious on some level

    • Tracy- I can relate. I was the devoted Christian wife too. (I never made his lunch and he used that against me in counseling of course.) I took care of everything and worked and he brought home a big paycheck and felt that gave him the right to do little else. The bible tells wives to submit (which means give respect) to their husbands and husbands to love their wives like Christ loved the church. Wives are not supposed to submit unconditionally. Men who say they are Christians and then cheat on their wives and abandon their families and abuse others are NOT Christians. Anyone can say they are a Christian but they have to back it up with actions. Real Christians are not perfect but they genuinely care about other people, especially their own families. It is people like the Duggars who have given Christianity a bad name. My church is a great example of real Christians. Our church leaders quickly kicked my husband out of the Elders group and told him to get right with God, they never blamed me for his actions and then the church rallied around me and my boys and never looked back. But this doesn’t get media attention, weirdos like the Duggars get the attention. It doesn’t seem fair.

      • Well said. I was a devoted Christian husband and I was consciously trying to be a good husband to my ex-wife. But that didn’t stop her from cheating and taking off on me. I did as I was supposed to and my conscience is clean because of that. In the end I have my integrity which is more than I can say for her. I was a devoted husband. It was not my devotion that invited my abuse. It was her selfishness and entitlement.

        Tracy, you being a great wife didn’t get you abused. It was your selfish and entitled husband who did that to you. Your devotion is a testimony to your character. I hope you don’t regret that.

        • Hi Micheal.
          Same boat as you.
          Minister’s wife.
          Curious if you are MOW’s husband lol.

          Our shit sandwiches are cut up into tiny little finger sandwiches with the crusts cut off. Easier to swallow – NOT!!

        • Amen to the integrity. In mediation lawyer had a spreadsheet with a col for wife assets and a col for sad sausage assets awarded. My side declared I was the winner as in my col I had integrity, reputation, honesty, loyalty, character, and relationship with children. He had a big ole zero in his col for those things. Priceless.

        • Michael….thank you…I don’t take the blame. I know I did right by him.
          He never loved me. He admitted to it. He told his own brother. Painted me as crazy 2 years before it all blew up.
          His family fully supports my ex and his girlfriend. It is disgusting.

          I have wrestled with God…. I have asked why he would allow this path….after all “I did” to keep things going. I’m learning God knew my faithfulness, he was allowing for my release…..

    • Not to be all doom and gloom, BUT: It’s VERY telling that the divorce rate of the so-called “churched” mirrors that of the so-called “unchurched”. It really seems that we’re witnessing a final downfall of marriage as a monogamous and sacred concept in the western world. The current zeitgeist of the western world is to simply lease a wife or husband. If you get tired of them, just get a new model that goes faster or has more features. Nevermind your vows and the PTSD and health problems you caused them and the children; that’s their problem for being a sincere person of their word to God and you. This is evidenced by the indifference and congratulatory attitude found in many channels of popular culture toward infidelity, cheating and deceit as being just part of expressing one’s essential self. People steadily feed their ids with more and more big budget “cheating-is-fun-and-spiritual-and-stuff” media which could be seen as a type of narc gospel seeking to convert as many as possible. For those who truly believe in love, honesty, trust and faithfulness, these are very sad times. You are just as likely to find a narc lowlife in church as elsewhere, except they’ll probably twist the Bible to justify their insufficient humanity. I see no reason that these trends won’t continue as the turmoil caused by infidelity is far more financially profitable than a society of stable and truly loving relationships based on the golden rule and mature adult behavior. Within the next decade, I would not be surprised if marriages have a 25%-30% chance of lasting.

      • Sad but true and well said. I think our individualistic society is coming to a head. With all the inflated sense of self and entitled people among us I’m surprised that personal relationships can work as well as it does, on any level.

        • I remember an essay from college entitled “I Want a Wife” by Judy Brady. I don’t know now to post links but you can google it. I laughed at the time. Now I see it as very telling and wish I would have taken it more seriously.

  • I am SO TIRED of the ridiculous notion that sexual dissatisfaction is the cause of cheating. My ex got as much as he wanted, whenever he wanted, and it still wasn’t as much as I wanted. But that’s not relevant to his cheating. The idea that if you just put out joyfully on demand, your spouse will always be devoted to you is complete crap because a) it *shouldn’t* work that way, and b) it *doesn’t* work that way. My ex’s “need” was to sneak around behind my back and relish in secrets. That’s not a need I can or wish to meet.

    • ^^^THIS!^^^

      The sexual frustration argument is so stupid. I mean, is it illegal or something to talk about and work through that subject as a functional couple?

      While I tried (not always successfully, of course) to make sure that her pleasure came first when we were intimate, my STBXW wasn’t very imaginative in bed, never asked me what I wanted sexually, and just heaped on a bunch of assumptions about our sex life without actually addressing any of the needs openly. So, if anyone was frustrated sexually in my marriage, it was the person who is typing this comment right now.

      And guess which one cheated with the narcissistic, probably borderline-sociopath with a rep for being the town philanderer? NOT the guy typing this comment.

      • Hear, hear! I am the one who had to initiate bedroom activities, and I was always asking ex about anything he wanted/needed… never said anything until we were in false MC. I spent years thinking the sex incompatibility was my fault, but in the end it was ex ‘cuz he had cheated and was no longer in love with me, so sex was a chore….

      • Saddam cut me off from sex shortly after he convinced me to marry him. I believed him when he said it was a physical issue, and at first he tried to do something about it. I stuck by him even though I really needed sex and was afraid I’d never have it again. All those sexless years had nothing to do with his physical health, everything to do with his controlling shit and his cheating.

        • My cheater said that he was fucking up his business and personal life and didn’t want to make the changes, “man up”, necessary to fix those things. Instead of listening to the people who genuinely cared about him and were holding him accountable, (“dude, do the right thing!”) he very easily found an mow employee who only told him he was awesome all the time no matter what he did – super kibbles. And blew him. It didn’t fix his problems at all. It didn’t start out about sex, certainly not lack of sex on our end, but the sex became the issue that glued them together as a team. (Ew) She could sue him for sexual harassment and he had to keep her happy so she wouldn’t spill the beans. What a great relationship, amazing it only lasted a few months. She spouts church shit too, while fucking over her husband and 4 kids by giving oral sex in seedy hotels. And full on support of women’s causes and as a therapist, she only helps and supports people. She lost both jobs (his employee and his blower) and he lost the respect of, well everyone. God I hate hypocrites.

        • I always felt like STBX and I had a stereotypically backward relationship, as he was the one withholding sex and affection over every little thing he could think of. I almost never turned him down… He always had excuses to tell me no, however.

    • Free Vixen, this–“My ex’s “need” was to sneak around behind my back and relish in secrets. That’s not a need I can or wish to meet”–was my experience too. He wanted the family, wife, and home life and he also wanted his secret life on the side.

      The whole assumption that “if your partner isn’t getting it at home, he/she will look elsewhere” is the biggest misconception out there about cheating. It’s so frustrating to hear this knee-jerk judgment over and over and over again. It’s just another fantasy of those who have never been cheated on: that on-demand sex with your partner will protect you from being chumped.

    • I did the same thing, never ever did I say no to sex. I was always giving and he was always taking. I would give so much of myself and love so much, he never reciprocated! That was my old thinking that if I do all this things he would love me more and return the favor!!!!
      I know better now!!
      That’s the only thing I will claim as my fault in this 20 year marriage.
      I had no boundaries….

    • Bingo! Getting turned down 13 out of 14 days and THEN getting told by his co workers that if I’d “just put out more, he wouldn’t be cheating.” Ummm… excuse me?!

      But this is also the guy that told his parents (who commiserated by letting OW stay at their house and attend family functions that I wasn’t told about/invited to) that he wanted someone who wasn’t such a homebody. Who wanted to go party like we used to. *sigh* I found out he HAD been to so many parties because the (eventual) Switzerland friends would tell me how sorry they were that I was too sick to come to the party the night before/several days before. Which explained why band practice ran so late and no one would answer their phones…they all knew. So, he wouldn’t bring me to or tell me about the parties, but then complained that I never went to them.

      Once again, their behavior is all on us. That ever moving target of ‘happiness’.

    • Thank you Free Vixen for this great insight!! –> “My ex’s “need” was to sneak around behind my back and relish in secrets. That’s not a need I can or wish to meet.”

      • These “people” truly are F’d up VERY early on in life and WAY before they met us. At this point it no longer makes sense for me to place ANY value whatsoever on their “feelings” or childish logic for what they do.

        • I wasn’t swooning with sexual satisfaction yet I managed to stay true. I was told (by my mil) that my standards were unattainable and that I was arrogant and controlling on my high horse. Again, my sexual needs weren’t being met.

  • You remember Romper Room? I loved that show! Remember at the end when she would hold that mirror up and say “I see ____” and she would rattle off all these names and I would always wait for her to say my name. I don’t think she ever did. So unfair. (lol). I’ve talked about Romper Room to other people – nobody remembers it! Just had to laugh when you mentioned it. I just figured I was the only one (old enough apparently) in the world who remembered it. P.S. Not a lot of people remember Electric Company either…wtf?
    Sorry – I guess I am letting out childhood suppressions 🙂

        • Too funny! Romper Room pre-dated the eventual popularity of my name, so I too had the sad experience of waiting in vain to hear it!

      • A little off topic, but as I remember, Romper Room was broadcast live. One day I was watching it with my nephew, and the dip shit hostess decided to do a little experiment with the children involving their senses. She had them smell different substances and answer her lead in questions….and one of the dishes held ammonia! Right there on live TV, we all got to see what happens when a little child puts her nose down to get a good whiff of ammonia……It WAS a learning experience, speaking of trauma! Pandemonium on the set, shrieking kids, the teacher trying to restore order and Doo Bee attitudes. LOL!

    • I took it personally that she never saw me in that mirror and called my name. That may have been one of my original traumas. LOLOL!

      • I REALLY took it personally that she didn’t say my name……My mother raised cocker spaniels and Miss Mary Lynn came to our home twice to purchase young dogs. She told me she would say my name on the show following her first visit.

        She didn’t. End of my ‘idol worship’ of Miss Mary Lynn. I was an aloof little snot the next time she came over–lol.

        I do recall the episode with the ammonia. Talk about misguided. I think it was related to a children’s book that was currently on the market which hypothesized that ammonia was on Mars and she was giving the kids ‘the experience’….

      • I told my husband and a friend about the Doo Bee song and dance, and they cracked up. Buzz, buzz, doobee-do….but they were thinking about a different doobie, a different buzz. I’m suuurrrre nobody was thinking about that sort of thing back then. Um, right?

    • OMG, the mirror and the names! One time I was sick and watching that show. When it got to that part, she said something like, “Oh, I see little Glad is sick today!” Well, of course, my actual name is extremely common for women my age, so no doubt lots of us were home sick, but I was convinced she actually saw me through the TV. For a long time afterwards, I was scared of the television because I thought the characters could really see me.

  • I received similar advice from my mother when I was first married, so I believed that it was important to meet his “needs” as much as possible. I submitted to sex when I was exhausted, sick, recovering from a yeast infection, or worried because the kids were running around. I began to look forward to my period, because that’s the only time he wouldn’t touch me. The final 10 years I was at least able to give up acting like the willing sex partner. I told him personally and in counseling that I felt like a whore. He didn’t care. It made no difference. Guess what Mrs. Duggar? He still cheated. Turns out he was cheating for most of our 30 yr. marriage! I still cringe at the sound of his car when he comes to pick the kids up. It triggers memories of his afternoon delight surprise visits. Yuck!

  • All of the bullshit she sweetly spews is just the precursor to being blamed when they do cheat. It’s really easy to go from, “You are supposed to meet his special need” to, “He strayed because you didn’t meet his special need.” And WTH with the “special need” stuff? That really creeped me out. But then, this is the woman who had all the boys leave the room when she changed a girl child’s diaper.

  • Hey CL, here’s an idea for a topic to debunk:

    Part and parcel in this Duggar craziness is the (totally faulty) assumption that someone will cheat if they are unhappy.

    A common cheater diatribe that I’ve not yet seen eviscerated here is the “but I didn’t *know* that I was sooOOOOoooo unhappy until I cheated and OM/OW showed me how things should/could/would be! I can’t believe I put up with your hideousness for so long before I was able to free myself!” defense.

    I write “defense” because their little epiphany only ever comes, I am quite certain, after getting confronted about their cheating and having to deal with the cognitive dissonance that ensues for them when they and the AP then appear to be not-so-great people who did not-so-spectacular things.

    Personally, I’d LOVE to see CL and CN take that one down, and hard.


    • I love it sephage. I completely agree. If you listen to cheaters who are really willing to talk about their infidelities openly and honestly almost all of them say their spouses are great people and they mostly do it for the thrill and the attention. Also, Scientific study says unhappiness comes from lack of connecting to others and you can only connect to others when you are vulnerable, open and giving with others. Most cheater types do not attach to others so if they are unhappy, that’s on them. I highly recommend the documentary called “happy” if you haven’t seen it. It’s on Netflix right now.

    • A common cheater diatribe that I’ve not yet seen eviscerated here is the “but I didn’t *know* that I was sooOOOOoooo unhappy until I cheated and OM/OW showed me how things should/could/would be! I can’t believe I put up with your hideousness for so long before I was able to free myself!” defense.

      This is pretty much my ex’s words as well, and he even described it as an “epiphany.”

  • “Opportunities for sex? 24/7. Opportunities for Jim-Bob to take a bullet for his family? None forthcoming as yet.” One of my favorite lines from the UBT, ever. You just know Jim-Bob would be one of those men who’d use his wife as a shield, fearing for the impact a bullet might have on his hair.

  • So… continuing a value system that puts no accountability on the men beyond making money is a good thing? You should continue it? Encourage your daughters to continue to enslave themselves to it? Because “Michelle never needed anything more, so why should her daughters, female neighbors, any other woman, need anything more?”

    This philosophy is creating a dynasty of man-children, keeping them from feeling responsible for learning to soothe, feed, or entertain themselves; keeping them from feeling responsible for meeting their wife’s emotional needs; keeping them from feeling responsible for parenting their children; keeping them from feeling responsible for learning any skills to maintain their own homes. WOMEN are responsible for all of that. MEN just have to work and make money, BECAUSE IT’S SO HARD.

    All they learn is that their needs come first, always. Before their children’s needs, before their wives’ needs. Their wives shouldn’t even have needs, and if they do, their wives need to meet those needs themselves and just not bother their husbands with them.

    And we’re surprised that this system produces cheaters and people who violate the sexual boundaries of others? Why wouldn’t they feel that entitlement? They’ve been programmed to believe that the universe revolves around their junk.*

    All responsibility, all accountability is on the woman. Your husband cheated? Well, you didn’t meet his special need. Just keep having babies and smiling and never ever acknowledge that anything is wrong, because if you do, he might not fulfill his ONE responsibility of bringing in the money. And then everybody will know of your “failure.” And be sure to raise your girls to feel the same fear and guilt, because otherwise, they might want more from life than what you achieved and make you question your choices. And again, everybody will know that you “failed” in perpetuating the system and ensuring the next generation never has to feel responsible for taking care of themselves.

    PS The reason she has so much time to apply that much hairspray is that she’s not actually PARENTING her youngest children. Her oldest daughters are. Because you have to start training them early to repress their own needs under a thick layer of guilt and obligation.

    (*Male Chumps, please know I am aware that there are lots of lovely men out there who don’t feel this way.)

  • I really hate to argue with people on this subject — because if they plant themselves firmly in the belief that God intended for women to be subservient to men in all ways, and that we should live ONLY to satisfy the man’s needs, then they effectively de-humanize us, and all argument is futile. The fact that some women are so indoctrinated that they actually believe this crap makes me really sad. To me, it is just as atrocious as the belief that people of other colors, or cultures, or religions, or living practices are in some way sub-human, and must be treated as less than by those who are “True Believers” and righteous in every way.

    Nothing is as impervious as a closed mind.

    The other sad belief is that the man will be grateful for this total subservience. He will in some way repay the woman for all her grovelling. Yes, that is SOOOO likely to happen!

    To me, sex should be a wonderful dance that occurs between two willing and able partners, and it should be done to enhance the pleasure and enjoyment of both partners — or not at all. If my partner expressed reluctance to appreciate my desire with a statement like “Oh, alright then, if you MUST satisfy your lust, then I will lay here and be as uncooperative as possible,” my desire would quickly depart. Everyone with normal drives and desires experiences times when they may just need a quick fix — but we should have learned how to take care of such needs without imposing on others, surely by the time we leave puberty.

    Men should also be reflective enough to realize that there will likely come a time in their lives when they are not the mighty, mighty sex gods they would like to be. Viagra was not an instant success because men don’t need it. If a man isolates himself from all compassionate caring and thoughtful intimacy with a woman, he has only himself to blame for the shattering loneliness of ill health and old age.

    There are many laws against forcing humans into the sex trade — the marriage certificate should not be regarded as a free pass to the open 24/7 Quickstop of Sex. Get real — most other mammals only breed for the production of young during certain short seasons. Outside of that time, they generally spend their existence seeking food and shelter. I don’t think we were ever intended or designed to conduct our life as if we were staring in a porn movie.

    I really don’t need marital advice from someone who has had no evidence of brain activity in the last two decades — maybe longer. I wish the media didn’t take such delight in presenting this type of tripe to us for our viewing “enjoyment.” If this attitude is supposed to be healthy, let me check into the nearest mental sanitorium, because I am sure I will be “ill” for a long, long time.

    • I think the problem is that when this was written (supposedly) in the bible, it was back when a woman would starve to death if a man didn’t marry her. She was looked at more as a slave that was acquired instead of a partner in life. It was an exchange – you feed me and protect me and I’ll give you children and make meals for you. People didn’t parnter up back then because they shared common interests, liked the same movies and music or graduated from the same universities, they partnered up to stay alive. Men wanted as many children as possible (preferably boys) to help out on the farm or whatever.

      Now women are expected to bear children, work full time, run the house, be involved at the school, cook the food, and to be JOYFULLY available to hubby. And the church spoon feeds this load of crap to both male and female members. The men feel gypped and the women feel less than.

      Jesus was supposedly the greatest empath ever. Christians are supposed to strive to be like Jesus. These discussions about submission and what the roles should be in marriage would dry up if husbands and wives were empathetic toward each other. I asked my traveling, workaholic, narcissistic cheater if he ever once thought about how difficult it was for me to basically be a single mother, ignored by my spouse, trying to carry a very heavy load alone and he actually admitted he never did. He admitted he only thought about himself. And therein lies the basis for every shitty marriage. Selfish people expecting to have their needs met with a total disregard for their partner. Can’t be empathetic toward your spouse? DON’T. GET. MARRIED.

      • “Now women are expected to bear children, work full time, run the house, be involved at the school, cook the food, and to be JOYFULLY available to hubby. And the church spoon feeds this load of crap to both male and female members. The men feel gypped and the women feel less than.”

        My ex-cheater FF is/was an athiest and a self-reported feminist (his words). He still held this (^above) sort of belief system. He never would say it aloud though. It was very evident, now that I may safely reflect on his attitude, his behaviours, his sense of entitlement and his inherent slackness in pretty much everything, except for his man-scaping.

        So, no church was telling him how to act and behave. His sense of entitlement did all of that for him. That, and his girlfriend. She is his true-believer. He’s got her now learning to be his SUB (submissive) as a newbie. No more vanilla for him. He has realised his true path now…

    • Thank you Portia. Even though I am currently married I was engaged to a loser who thought that sex should be like porn and that because I wasn’t always willing and didn’t act or dress like them something was wrong with me. He did cheat by the way earlier in the realtionship and blamed it on me. We didn’t get married to say the least

      • You know, I was just having this very same thought. The Duggars and others like them preach total sexual submission of wives to husbands. How does that make them any different than women in porn who are supposed to be sexually available to men at all times in all settings? I’m not saying all porn depicts total female submission, but it would be interesting to ask the question. I’m sure they’d link it back to marriage–but basically, that’s just admitting that marriage makes you a porn star for your husband.

        • No doubt the current trend for brides to do a boudoir photo session as a gift for their grooms stems in part from this.

        • I was totally submissive including sexually to my Cheating Ex. Not once, ever, in 16 years did I say no to anything. Little did I know until after he was gone (after I kicked him out on DDay) that all those things that he did and said to me during our frequent sex were scripts from porn movies. Silly me, I’d never seen such stuff, I just thought he was hot for me. Being “a good little submissive” (his favorite name for me), being his “little fucktoy” (another favorite) like a pornstar didn’t stop him from being a serial cheater though I never knew till it was all over. Oh and not only was I submissive that way, but I bought all our food and paid for it, cooked all our meals (he never ONCE cooked a meal for us, for me, or even poured me a glass of wine). So this advice is just plain wrong. Like most narcs, he is a bottomless pit of taking, taking, taking. You give and give and give and it’s never enough.

  • Many years ago I was told by a Jewish friend that, according to Jewish law, a Jewish woman could divorce her husband if he was not satisfying her sexual needs. I was blown away by that. Never before, in any religious doctrine, had I heard of an acknowledgement that women are indeed sexual beings and that their sexual needs are also of paramount importance.

    Given that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have the same starting position (the Old Testament) – what the hell happened?

    On another point – I too can say ‘meeting his sexual needs’ never stopped ‘The Great I Am’ from cheating. Far from it. Sometimes I honestly wonder if it didn’t just make him greedy for a smorgasbord (as you’d put it CL 🙂 ). I suppose I was fortunate in that ‘The Great I Am’ never tried to tell me he wasn’t getting enough, or it wasn’t exciting enough – or any of that mindfuckery. Whatever, the betrayal has still left me with some ‘issues’ around sex – another thing I hate him for!

  • It would be nice to think that Jim Bob would smile and say no to his special need if his sweetie was exhausted, sick, or having her period.

    Smile, Jim Bob.

  • “And so be available, and not just available, but be joyfully available for him. Smile and be willing to say, ‘Yes, sweetie I am here for you,’ no matter what, even though you may be exhausted and big pregnant and you may not feel like he feels. ‘I’m still here for you and I’m going to meet that need because I know it’s a need for you.’ ”


    What is truly awful about all of this crap is the one size fits all mentality here and in so many places, the belief that if it worked for you then it will work for everyone or that if your spouse is good to you then everyone else’s spouse must be good to them too. This strange belief that no one in the world ever goes out of their way to hurt another human being or is a flat our bad person. Can’t quite stop the retching.

    • I agree AllOutofKibble. I threw up a little bit in my mouth reading Michelle’s disturbing “advice”. She’s a ride-or-die-but-in-a-loving-“Christian”-way-kind-of-woman. I have seen about a minute of their show in total, and when I spotted the vacant, Stepford Wife look in her eyes, I shivered. That she appears to worship Jim Bob’s penis on at least the same level as he does causes me to believe that it’s the real deity here. Authentic Christian theology usually calls that idolatry.

      • Boudica–Michelle & the Duggars are in a cult, rather than a religious denomination. One of my former students escaped from said cult, and has horrific tales of the types of sexism, misogyny, and parenting advice given to cult members. I’ll try to track down some of the gems to post later. scaaarrrryy….

        • Yes Tempest, I completely agree with you on this. This post is uncannily timely for me. As of late, I’ve been studying Margaret Singer’s material on cults. You can find some of her discussions on YouTube. Fascinating! She dispels some of the common myths about cult dynamics. The Duggar’s “church” and their belief system hits many major notes for a cult organization. I look forward to your sharing the information you received from your former student.

          • I see no distinction between religions. The only real difference I see between so called cults and religions is that significant portions of the population belong to the “religions” and the “cults” are new or have small denominations. I call those religions that brain wash their their members to the point of harm criminal.

            • Just thought I’d add; don’t forget Michelle Bachmann who left her church in an effort to distance herself from the remarks below. I was a Lutheran church, is that a cult?

              In a speech at a mega-church in the Minneapolis area back in 2006, Michele Bachmann explained her decision to pursue tax law. It wasn’t her choice, exactly. God had already told her to go to law school; God had also told her to marry a fellow named Marcus Bachmann. Now Marcus told her “to go and get a post-doctorate degree in tax law.” This was not a particular desire of Michele’s (“Tax law? I hate taxes!”), but she was certain God was speaking through her husband.

              “Why should I go and do something like that?” she recalled thinking. “But the Lord says, ‘Be submissive wives; you are to be submissive to your husbands.’ “

          • Boudica:
            The most appalling thing my student told me was about the training of little infantbots, with a technique called “blanket training.” I found a web site that details it:

            “Blanket training is a child training method advocated by Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo and popularized by the Duggar family through their TLC show. It has its own Wikipedia page and has its own featured page on the Duggar Family Blog. Parents have adopted this child training method specifically because of the Duggars.

            In its simplest form, blanket training consists of 3 actions: (1) place a young child (usually an infant or toddler) on a small blanket, (2) tell that child not to move off the blanket, and (3) strike that child if they move off the blanket. Rinse, repeat.

            The training can be more elaborate than this. Some advocates may describe it more gently, poetically, or less fearsome-sounding. Others prefer corporal punishment to be a last resort if a child moves off the blanket. But despite linguistic dress-up, at its core it remains the same: you punish a young, still-developing child for wanting to indulge its natural curiosity and crawl off a blanket.”


            • Tempest, THAT IS AN ABOMINATION! I’m livid that this heinous abuse is being encouraged by so-called Christians. They are mentally and psychologically caging an infant – using a blanket. How incredibly sadistic!

              • I know, Boudica–that a small child/infant, who should be held and nurtured and encouraged, is instead force fed a diet of subservience, domination, and punishment, is cruel beyond measure.

          • and Bill Gothard’s views on women (yup, the same man who had 34 allegations of sexual abuse leveled against him):

            “While unmarried women may have more flexibility in applying the principle that women were created for a domestic calling, it is not the ordinary and fitting role of women to work alongside men as their functional equals in public spheres of dominion (industry, commerce, civil government, the military, etc.). The exceptional circumstance (singleness) ought not redefine the ordinary, God-ordained social roles of men and women as created.”

            “Male leadership in the home carries over into the church: only men are permitted to hold the ruling office in the church. A God-honoring society will likewise prefer male leadership in civil and other spheres as an application of and support for God’s order in the formative institutions of family and church.”

            • “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
              Mahatma Gandhi

              • Sadly most Christians are not following Christ’s teachings.

                I can’t believe that there are people out there who still think the woman’s place is in the kitchen! Thank God I had an enlightened father who didn’t think that I had a “domestic calling” and educated me in private schools through college. My Dad (may he RIP) was a blue-collar worker who only had a 6th grade education (thanks to WWII shutting schools in Poland). How come he knew to empower his daughter & others don’t?
                Unfortunately being educated didn’t stop me from being chumped.

                Thanks CN for all the supportive comments, informative tidbits and entertainment!

  • Ok…. This may not be very popular. But being a Christian, I believe in the submission part. What a lot of people leave out is much more important. The husband must love his wife as Jesus loved the church. The ultimate responsibility of the Husband at least according to the bible, is huge. Yes one of mans greatest needs is sex. But he must do many things as well! Lead the home in all aspects. Provide security and communication for his wife. ETC….. Not going into all the details…. but yes a woman should offer herself up. But the husband cannot take that part of the scripture and run with it unless he is fulfilling his part.

    I despise the hypocrites! My wife would post constantly about God on FB and would set up church marriage groups while she was banging a 20 something year old. In the end, its about morals and character…. My wife once we had kids focused 99 percent on them. I became a second thought in her world. And I never strayed. She on the other hand says I did not meet her needs so she got them filled elsewhere…. hmmm…

    • No offence but it’s 2015. Women don’t need to ‘offer themselves up’ because we actually enjoy sex as much as men… sometimes more (if you’re doing it right). Also, we women can provide security and communication just fine and dandy on our own.

      That said, Whispery Duggar says she spreads ’em for Dum Bulb so he’ll listen to her incessant chattering. Because, golly, we ladies are such chatterboxes and our man ‘putting up with our chit chat’ is so much better than a proper lay.

      • Well we can agree to disagree…. but note in the Christian belief, the submit is just a small part of the whole. Only pseudo Christians leave out the mans responsibility while demanding 24/7 sex. And unless you are a Christian, you will not fully understand the statement…. Husband must love his wife like Jesus loved the church… I am not saying marital rape by any means. DA is a POS he has 19 kids and screwing around on his wife!!! The bible does not promote a person be abused and this is actually an out! He is a typical cheater no morals no character!!!

        • I think there is a huge misconception about what submit means in the bible. Many Hebrew scholars believe it means “to respect” and it definitely has nothing to do with sexual submission. Like I mentioned in my post above, it is not unconditional submission, it is only earned when a husband loves his wife like Christ loved the church like DavidB says. That kind of love is patient, kind “It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” Submitting to this kind of love is easy for most women except for cheater, disordered types. I consider myself a modern woman with a graduate degree, very independent and a leader of my community. I don’t feel it is antiquated to fully respect a loving husband.

    • Ahhhh, the Jesus cheaters…. They’re just so damn special 🙂

      Your wife is a sorry ass excuse for any sort of morals and values. And I’m a Christian too but I have read the oft forgotten other part of the submission verse. I’ll tell you what, you treat me like Jesus treated the church and I’ll submit all day long. Let’s all hold our breath til that happens.

      You know David, I’m beginning to think maybe our spouses aren’t really all that Christian 🙂

      • Ahh yes, I remember one post she made the next morning after a 3 hour hook up with her boytoy! It was a beautiful picture of a sunrise, and she said yes God I see you! You would think she would be hiding under a stone if she believed in God!

        • “You know David, I’m beginning to think maybe our spouses aren’t really all that Christian :)”

          Cluster B Personality Disordered people (Narcissists, Socio/Psychopaths, etc.) are thriving in a lot of church environments. They are essentially low/no empathy predators who are impressive spiritual mimics. They speak fluent Christianese, do the good works (especially if others get to see them at their tasks), and sing in the choir. Some are Sunday school teachers, Elders, Deacons and even Pastors. The church as a whole is a target-rich environment for obvious reasons: Easy pickins, easy to escape detection.

            • You’re right DavidB! Impression management is paramount to them. My XH was/is an elder in our church (which I stopped attending the day before I move out on him). A serial cheater and predator, he looks and acts like the kindest person on the planet – and (as I discovered) has been sleeping with a good portion of the women of the congregation (married and single – some young enough to be his daughter). The church wasn’t his only hunting grounds. Yuk!

          • You nailed this description Boudica. Church most definitely is a cover for these predators and it gives them a target rich environment. My husband was an Elder and Sunday School teacher. His AP was his Sunday School teaching partner and one of our sons was in his class having to deal with dad’s constant flirting with this woman. Real Christians do not act this way. One of the first things I said to my stbx after Dday was, “Well you have proven to me you are definitely not a Christian.” His response? “Of course I am, I talk to God everyday.” Who do I suspect “God” looks him back in the mirror?

      • Im not saying that at all. There is much more to it than saying a woman must offer herself up…. If the dipshit is not doing his part or abusive or cheating, that is a whole different ballgame…. its the Jesus cheaters who like to take a small portion of the text and latch on!!! While ignoring the whole.

    • Hi David B,
      I understand your perspective, and I had a pastor use this to explain why “obey” needed to be in the marriage vows, which I refused to do.
      I simply disagree, no man truly acts the way Jesus/God does, so no woman should have to “obey,” “submit” or “offer up.”

      • Just remember, it is a scripture…. it does not mean one must submit to abuse. No man or woman can truly act the way Jesus did. But the premise is we should strive to be like. Obey does not mean what I say goes period or you must do as I say. We are supposed to be joined as one and work together! As I stated above, the ones who promote the terms Obey or Submit are just abusers who cherry pick what they like.

        • Stop picking on David ladies and educate yourselves on what Christians believe about this kind of submission. Obviously, David believes it is a mutual love. Enough already.

          • True Nicole S, I think David is on to something there because “submit” has been taken to mean only one thing by the perverse people that want to beat others over the head with the bible. Male doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you want and then the female must comply in the bible. There is a part in there that says that the man is supposed to be the head of his family and that he has so much responsibilities tied to that, so many things that he must adhere to first and running over someone that he is entrusted to care for is not one of them.

        • I feel that, after many a year… And knowing that we are able to be equal, both partners should be capable of submission in the sense that they work together as partners. Unless you’re a scholar in ancient lost languages, and even then, you don’t know exactly what is said, and everything in scriptures can be interpreted with different intent. I think if Jesus was around today, he would expect the women and men to work equally hard, and understand that in a marriage, you both have to take the lead sometimes.

    • Linguistically, “submission” implies that one party is above the other. That’s no way to run a healthy marriage.

      • Linguistically yes…. but that is not the Christian belief…. only these asshats that take small portions and present that as factual… it is much bigger in scope than the female must do (blank) Not saying anyone has to believe in God. But I (almost said hate) the Jesus cheaters who cherry pick….

        • Yes and the word submit is English obviously. The original text is in Hebrew and it doesn’t mean the exact same thing as our definition as submit. You may want to research the original text. I find it to mean something closer to respect. I think it is very possible that when the bible was translated into English hundreds of years ago the male dominated society chose to translate it as submit instead of respect for self serving reasons.

        • I always saw “submit” to mean that he gets to decide on issues where we cant easily come to a mutual agreement because part of HIS RESPONSIBILITY is to weigh all factors and consider what is best for wife and kids in a SACRIFICIAL manner. If he does this properly, he might not actually ever get his way.

          Problems arise when the leader becomes selfish and refuses to consider what is best for wife/kids. My deadH used to do what he wanted then he reverse engineered explanations why his decision was good for us…you never heard such tall tales !

          I did submit to his final authority in large things…where we lived, what house we picked, what car I drove – UNTIL I knew of HIS BETRAYAL…then I quit submitting. I stashed cash I would have normally given him access to (eventually $40,000), I refused to move and I made decisions that were best for the kids regardless of what he said.

          I know a lot of Christian wives but very few who admit to making sex available whenever he chooses…to me that is a “lunatic fringe” thing.

          I recently remarried (2 services in 2 denominations) and sex is a healthy, loving, mutual, exciting, tender, generous, considerate, mutually agreed upon thing. I believe that God invented sex when he invented our bodies and He blesses and encourages it – it is intended to be a genuine good, not means to hurt emotionally or physically.

          • I think it’s the whole idea that the male is The Leader by dint of having a penis. I’m not christian (or religious in any way) so these kinds of attitudes, whether they are founded upon good intentions or not, get my ire up, and I think they lead to a lot of abuse. No way does my man get the ‘final say’ simply because he has a penis. We talk it out and we come to a mutual decision.

            But while that’s getting slightly a bit off topic, as far as the ‘submitting’ thing goes, it still comes down to, from what I’m reading, the man being in charge. I can’t go with it because that basic point is something I do not agree with in any way.

            If it works for others, get on with it, but for me that basic starting point is never going to work.

            • Nord–I’ve been thinking the same thing most of the evening. It seems to me that plenty of the women on CL were probably a damn site more clever than their Hs, and yet we are supposed to “submit” (whether meant in the Hebrew original or the English) because of the organizing effects of prenatal hormones that yielded a longer appendage?

              Hey, let’s buy the Divine Right of Kings, while we’re at it (apologies to the British, Swedish, and Japanese chumps, but seriously–all we need to do is take a look at cheater Charles to know how ridiculous is the idea that royalty is superior). The idea that modern relationships should be based on what men 2000+ years ago thought is crazy. It reminds me of the line the peasant uses on King Arthur in Monty Python & the Holy Grail, “Well you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ’cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”

              • I can see why gals coming here with a “I was a kind, submissive Christian wife and he was a lying cheating asshole anyway” story wouldn’t give a person any reason to think that life was ever a good idea and might ever see all of Christianity as ill-advised…well THAT is on the guys…they were given a task and they blew it out of their asses. I was a great wife and that is the record Im claiming.

                My new husband is much less dictatorial than deadhusband…he is one to discuss and make mutual decisions. Poor thing almost had a stroke this morning though…someone stole $9000 from our checking acct on my birthday…before he filed an official complaint at the bank he had to ask me if I bought myself a $9000 gift I had failed to mention…sweet man is very kind but rather thrifty…he was panicked between which was worse…bold faced theft or a wife who spends $9000 without mentioning it. He actually asked me nicely.

            • Thanks D4E, you give me encouragement and hope. I don’t want any furniture except a couple good chairs for me and the rest of the space is for the dogs. That’s what >II< can do what I want – and it's cheap! You hang in there too.

            • Thank you for your sentiments about my girl passing suddenly. Put me back in the emotional dumpster for awhile. Good for you painting! I’m not so creative..yet.

              • And for those who don’t believe in or choose differently, Ok….. I was not indicating that anyone on here had to believe in the Christian faith. My point was the above asshat advice is a skewed version of what the bible says. Yes there is a use of submit but it says married peoples bodies belong to each other no one else! No it is not a command that the guy is IN CHARGE of everything. He is responsible to God for things done and decisions made within the family unit. The two become one and should discuss all things….. and yes I do believe the concept a man needs sex and respect…. and the woman love and security part…. but mutual respect is demanded. If ones spouse male or female is having an affair, it does not say you have to put up with it…. you can leave! And yes a female can provide for herself and does not need a man! But it appears some of you are taking off with the skewed version and hammering down like it is christian…. it is far from this.

    • Right before it says “wives submit to your husbands” it says “Christians submit to one another out of reverence for Christ”. Nobody ever talks about that part. People just want their way.

    • One of mans greatest needs is sex???? But of course that must be true!!! Its written in the scriptures! Holy crap. How many ways have the scriptures been bent? Reworded and interpreted? And seriously…. For some of us here… The ‘ Good Book’ is just that… A story. Its your choice if you want to believe or prescribe to that story…or any of the other hundred ways it has been manipulated to meet the need to control masses. A giant archiac rule book.
      You know what? If Helen, Jane , Mary and Ruth were the writers of the scriptures I am fucking confident Paul, Luke and John would be expecting less sex… And the one of mans biggest needs would be learning how to hold a conversation not their dicks

  • This whole thing was a passive-aggressive slam at the pervy Josh’s wife because if she had only put out any time, anywhere, even with three kids and a big old belly he never would have gone and had rough sex with hookers or molested his sisters. Oh, wait, the sister bit happened long before the wife was on the scene.

    Fuck the Whispery One and Dim Bulb Duggar. They’re a pox on the world.

    • You’re right, Nord!! This is a dig at poor Josh’s wife, who, um, couldn’t satisfy his needs. Perhaps because she isn’t his sister.

    • Im not defending all Mrs Duggar’s foolishness, but the quote in the UBT translated article references what she was telling her daughter prior to marriage…that was the context of the quote…I havent read any articles where there is an insinuation that Anna was responsible for Josh being the selfish, disgusting pervert he is.

      • She wrote this blog post awhile back – and then reposted it this week. I’d say there was some reasoning for bringing it back into the light. But that’s just my take on things, mainly because I think this woman and her entire family are batshit insane.

        • I read something to that effect subsequent to my post. Yea… I believe that scared people are mean and it can be terrifying for people who raise kids with a strong bent in any direction when they realize they didnt get the effect they thought was guaranteed when they chose thier parenting methods. The Duggar parents are likely scared that their son sucks as much as it seems he does (he does).

  • Okay, I always love the UBT but this is just so damn funny

    “Opportunities for sex? 24/7.

    Opportunities for Jim-Bob to take a bullet for his family? None forthcoming as yet.”

    I can’t help but laugh. That’s a classic and should go down in the UBT Hall of Fame.

  • So, for a woman, the goal is to be available in the same way that a blow-up doll with an upbeat sound track wired into it would be available?

    Yeah. Riiiight….

  • I can’t stop laughing. Jim-Bob’s “special need” reminds me of the “special purpose” of Steve Martin’s character in The Jerk.

  • My former MIL gave me this advice before I married her son… she wished she had understood her husband’s “needs” before she got married (then he would not have cheated was the subtext, but she never said this out loud).

    Makes me sick to my stomach that children are brought up to believe this (both boys and girls). Relationships/Marriage are about mutual respect and caring.
    And in my marriage, by the last 5 years, _ I _ was the one who initiated sex, not ex, but ex still cheated and complained about the lack of intimacy in our marriage. Talk about blameshifting.

    • zyx321, my late MIL tried every trick in the book to get rid of me because she wanted my ex husband who was her adopted only child all to herself. She was jilted at the altar, to save face she married a closet gay. He was a lovely man but he had no say in my ex’s life. I digress … as I said she did everything to get me out of my ex’s life. One day when we were alone whilst the ex played cricket, the MIL said to me that once the ex and I married, he could do what he wanted with and to me. She also stated that because he was so fussy regarding having a very moral and decent female, which I was, that she should find a new baby girl and place her into a bell jar until she was old enough for the ex. He was present when that comment was made and agreed with his mother. She had no empathy for females but loved males !! When I reflect back my ex had a sense of entitlement and an air of superiority that I was not aware of. Now he feels at the grand age of 63 he is entitled to screw a 23 year old from a 3rd world country the sick bastard. I should have run a mile back then but I didn’t and being young and naive isn’t my excuse for marrying him any more. I was just plain dumb and I lived to regret marrying him big time. Having said that, I have 2 children from the marriage and I would not swap them for the world. They are the best thing that I have ever done.

      • OHHHH the X M-I-L – boy do I have horror stories about that woman. (Of course she is in cahoots with my stbx presently trying to screw me over.) I didn’t get any ‘advice’ from her, but I can tell you that she sat down with our daughter one day and decided to show my daughter pictures of her dad and x-girlfriend. My daughter was about 13-14 at the time. And my M-I-L can’t understand why her own grand daughter can’t stand her? Gee whiz bitch.
        And that is nothing compared to the other BS my M-I-L has pulled.

  • With all of those kids, she must consider a blow job cannibalism. SMH. I shudder to imagine what has truly gone on in that family.

  • All I have to say about Mrs Duggar the Elder is “Bless her heart”. (with all the inflection that phrase carries when South of the Mason-Dixon line).

    SEVENTH Commandment, anyone? If you believe the Bible then those are the ONLY direct rules/word of God. The rest is non-Divine BS, ie human speculation.

    With apologies to Christians here that live by their beleifs/ethics, as opposed to the Devils* who cite Scripture for their own purposes.


    * Remember, Mommy Duggar is COINING it-all this controversy has a huge cha-ching factor….

  • Damn if my X didn’t think JUST like Michelle Duggar! (and he wasn’t even in a cult. Okay, well a cult of 1–he worshiped himself).

  • Hey Chump Lady…..I was recently introduced into DivorceCare and there is a Christian Counselor by the name of Leslie Vernick who actually takes all of the stuff and TURNS IT ON ITS EAR….

    Basically says how the Church has been failing miserably at dealing with abuse such as this within the marriage……It might be eye opening and helpful for some of your faithful followers because she basically takes what Michelle Duggar is proposing and says that “IT IS WRONG” and how they are twisting all of those bible verses….. Just throwing that out there… was a whole new perspective for me

  • Just . . . Ewwwwww! She’s full on brainwashed. Now I need to bleach my brain of the image of that complete dork Jim Bob having a hard on. Skin. Is. Crawling.

  • “What girl doesn’t dream of being married to a helmet-haired Howdy Doody with a perpetual hard on for Jesus?”

    Mwahahaha!!! Dying

  • Such misdirection! All those poor girls reading this and thinking they can control something they have no control over ….
    I ‘joyfully met his needs’ (never knowingly said no as I love a bit of it).
    He still cheated. Why? Because I had started asking and demanding for my needs to be met. His response to such a vicious personal attack was to have an affair and arrange for OW to give him unconditional positive regard.
    Except at the end, she started making the same complaints I did apparently….
    No, honey. This isn’t about you or the marriage. If Jim Bob wants to cheat, thinks he is entitled to cheat, he will.

  • Sadly, I bought into this bullshit for many years. I was also a big fan of Dr Laura back when she had a radio show, and spouted a lot of this sort of stuff. I lived the submissive wife life. I had three children within three years, and was totally depleted. But I always was available. Then I discovered that my marriage was a rotten onion, and peeled the layers, revealing increasing levels of rot. At the core, I found a sociopathic narcissist who carried on at least a dozen years if not the whole marriage, with seven women I could identify, plus innumerable prostitutes.
    When I say my ex cheated on me, the first thing people do is assume that I failed him in the marriage. After all, it takes two to tango! And with that flawed belief, they feel safe knowing it will never happen to them.

    • Dr. Laura was one of those Ladies Against Women sorts as I recall. I heard her giving such fine advice as that you should be celibate and not date after divorce for a period of time half the length of your marriage. I never did figure out WTF that was about.

      • The Dr. Laura advice radio show was incredibly fucked up. I used to listen to it on the way home from work, gave me someone to cuss at instead of getting pissed about the traffic.

        • I guess that could be viewed as a positive response to her. Fewer auto accidents while otherwise good motorists cursed her horrible notion of what women should do because they were born as women.

  • Funny we’re talking about sex and cheaters, and the pop-up ad on my screen is for a stain remover. Don’t need it … the stainmaker’s gone.

  • Just before I married (at the ripe old age of 22) my STBXH and I attended pre-marital counseling with a couple who were pastors at the church we had been attending. I wasn’t from a religious family but my Ex’s family were devout Christians and had very traditional ideals about marriage ect. As an admittedly inexperienced young woman I followed suit – as I wanted desperately to have that traditional/”ideal” Christian marriage and live a life with a faithful man, one of great integrity and character. During one of the sessions the couple who was counseling us split us up to have private talks about intimacy in a Christian marriage. I will never forget this as long as I live, she looked me dead square in the face and said “Be sexually open, always. Never turn your husband down when he wants sex. You are made to fulfill his desires and what a gift that is. Sex is not a sin”. I remember first being horrified that this was a woman that I truly respected and now knew how she lived her life as a wife. And then immediately felt repulsed that anyone would give “advice” like that. As if being a “hole” was my only obligation in a marriage. I’m not a 7/11, for godsake! It’s ludicrous that people within the church were advising young women to degrade themselves in such a manner. The advice my husband received that evening: “Be a provider and your wife will be happy and want to, in turn, make you happy. Remember any type of sex you want to explore is not a sin with your wife”. Ugh, makes me sick. Luckily, although I might have been inexperienced I was not naive – my STBXH and I agreed that this rational was crazy cakes. Makes me wonder though, if he always had that idea deeply engrained in his mind that men truly were entitled to sex however and whenever they want. I guess, it must apply with married Ho-workers too! Dickweed!

    • Lemon, “As if being a “hole” was my only obligation in a marriage.” After ex left me I got into two “conversations” with two different women around my age that basically told me that “it must have been because you didn’t put out enough”. My reply was that i wasn’t just a “hole” or an orifice. One of them puts out every single day, every single day I asked are you f*ing kidding me. Of course I wasn’t doing that but sad to say that this woman’s husband was using her like a damn blow up doll and still cheating on the side and she is blind to it. If ex asshole was distant or disrespectful or just plain being an abusive asswipe, there was no damn way that I was going to have sex with him, I Am Not a Hole. Where do some of these people get their ideas from.
      All women should be taught to respect themselves, do the married have a responsibility to each other to have sex, yes, but damn if you have to take disrespect or plain meanness before sex then dammit you have the right to say no.

      • I have found that women, often, have greaters sex drives than men. Clearly, as men age, their capacity diminishes more than that of women.
        So, should men submit to the greater sexual demands of their wives, too?

  • Oh, where to begin?!?!?!

    I, too, fell for this horse-shit back in Marriage #1 – guess what?!?!?! Serving his needs first didn’t get me anywhere, he still left!!!!

    If I ever had a chance to meet her, I would give her a stupid-head-slap so hard it’d make her children’s teeth rattle!!!

  • Hello All. I’ve read through most of this. I love the sense of humor some of you have. I both laughed and “welled up” as I read all your stuff. I’ve been divorced for more years than I care to mention – but it’s A LOT. I raised two kids alone, and always felt that someday I would find the right guy, get re-married and live “happily ever after.” Then after several years and a few bad “relationships” and after 7 more years of nobody in my life, I met “this guy.” Well, OMG, I thought my prayers had been answered. He was “too good to be true” which I of course found out later JUST HOW TRUE THAT PHRASE IS. After he put me up on that proverbial pedestal for several months – I was then, unceremoniously kicked off into the depths and despair of the “devalue” and “discard” phases. Without going in to all the gory details, which I’m sure a lot of you already know the M.O. of these creeps, I was discarded like a piece of trash and 3 days later he’s on social media with his new GF. Well, I’m in my sixth month of recovery from the SHOCK and HEARTACHE of this EVIL piece of S**T that sauntered in to my life, while he’s been having the time of his life with the new Ms. Victim (unbeknownst to her – YET). Anyway, I’m CURED! Cured from EVER wanting to be married or in a relationship with ANY man, ANY where, ANY time. I mean for God’s sake, if you’re with someone for TWO years only to later realize you were a TARGET and the whole “love” thing was orchestrated and manufactured just to LURE me into LOVE with the DEVIL aka Narcissist/Sociopath. How the hell will I EVER EVERRRRR trust anyone again!? How could I EVER know if they would be telling me the truth!! If this A-Hole had me convinced he loved me, how does anyone EVER trust again??? I’m too damned old for this crap. I’m well over 50, thought I found the man of my dreams – my answer to prayer- only to end up in a heap of devastation, anger, rage at being duped and heartache while he skates off, unscathed with someone else. Hey, I’m not one to use a lot of profanity – but in light of the magnitude of pain I’ve been through in the past several months with the “relationSHIT” and the DISCARD …. Just sign me – Fucking Done4ever! PS – Chump Lady – I love your column.

    • Well HH, I really can’t answer that because I’m not one of those women. I raised my children years ago – ALONE, and I’ve been divorced for over 30 years. Over the years, I have “thought” it might be nice if I met someone “special” and “perhaps” re-married – I wasn’t on a mission. ~~ I was alone for several years before I met the jerk who I was referring to in my post. He was a “boyfriend” who just happened to be a narcissist/sociopath. But I didn’t realize that until AFTER the emotional abuse and damage was done. In other words, I was targeted and duped by a freakin’ CON MAN. That is the ultimate betrayal. I’ve been “recovering” from the trauma for the past six months. Sooooo, today, as I’m reading all the comments on this topic about marriage and the BS of being a “good” and “submissive” wife – I’m like WTF am I thinking that I would EVERRRR entertain the idea of wanting to be married again. So, hence, I am cured from that foolish notion. Single I am, and single I will stay. I’m just plain Done4Ever.

      • HH ~~~ PS

        I’m gonna stick my neck out here – but based on your comment you made about –

        “Many men (of course not all) I know abhor the idea of a LTR, getting married, and having children.”

        I’m gonna guess you are probably pretty young.

        • …or insensitive. Both because he assumes most men hate commitment, and because he assumes all women want to be hitched and baby mamas.

          I might also remind HH that the plural of “anecdote” is not data–just because he knows of one manipulative woman doesn’t mean we all are. Are you sure you’re on the right site? Trolling, perhaps?

      • Turning the shit brown into lime-green walls, is what I meant by getting ‘in the mud’. And, coming out bright, clean and clawing my way to the top a few steps at a time. Just wish it was easier after this long.

  • I lived for over 25 years with someone who treated me as if my true value as a human being was tied up in catering to whatever his perceived wants and needs were at any given time. When I was pregnant with our first child, he attempted to tell me how long I needed to breast feed and why. I cut him off and explained to him how long I intended to breast feed. I suggested that if he wanted the baby to be breast fed longer than I intended, that he should grow some breasts of his own and pick up wherever I left off. Of course, it was probably one of the times that I stood up to him for which he probably carried a grudge throughout the marriage. You see, he actually believed that he should be able to dictate how I used my body. He also felt himself ill-treated if I was sick or tired or busy and refused him sex – and he wanted sex on his schedule, even if it meant I didn’t attend to my children’s needs or it would cause me to have difficulty getting to work on time. Being a sane, responsible parent, I would not neglect my children in order to attend to an overgrown baby-bully, but as I actually enjoy sex, I tried to compromise with him and have sex with him as frequently as we could reasonably do so. He believed himself ill-treated and held it against me.

    What I just described, how Michelle Duggar is living and the legacy that she is passing down to her children isn’t a mutually satisfying, respectful marital relationship. It’s abuse inside of a gulag disguised as a home. The problem with Michelle Duggar and her ilk is that they have not only convinced themselves that this crap is desirable, but that it’s normal. She’s not a mother because not only didn’t she protect her daughters, but she defamed them by offering excuses for her perverted son who sexually assaulted and abused them. She’s more of a broodmare than a mother. She has absolutely no ability to teach her children anything about self-respect or agency because she doesn’t possess any. But what makes her most despicable is to have these things as her resume and then presume to lecture or give advice to anyone about how to conduct themselves in a relationship. She’s with a man who treats her like he would treat a favored barn animal. I don’t need advice on how to be a barn animal since I don’t plan to become one.

    Seriously, Michelle Duggar, go sit on a stool and pour yourself a nice hot cup of Shut the Fuck Up.

  • I wasn’t raised by religious parents and experienced life before becoming a Christian, including the entitled actions of one POS who forced himself on me. So shortly after becoming a Christian I attended a relationship camp that covered in detail how sex should work in marriage. I am glad to say that their view was respectful and empowering for all. No one should be a sexual door mat.
    I too as mentioned above wanted to be a part of a faith filled family, with a committed husband who acted with integrity and loved me as a husband should love his wife.
    But slowly the cracks began. Four weeks after our first child was born he wanted sex, and as a dutiful wife I complied but then freaked out at the possibility of falling pregnant again hubby refused yo use condoms, this was compounded by the ass hat doctors I saw who refused to provide the morning after pill as it was against his own religious beliefs.
    Two years later loving Christian hubby requests anal sex, and becomes very moody when I quickly make it clear, that ain’t going to happen. In the weeks that followed the mind fuckery begin about what was my walk with Christ like as he noticed my struggle with things and a bit of negativity in me, between the lines I hadn’t submitted. A year after this hubby admits he has been spending a large amount of time in adult shops watching porn but is adamant nothing more. When I get upset our pastor is called, hubby discloses his actions and surprise I’m told by the pastor that I am too black and white on the matter and yep I should look at being more available. More available! We had a very active sex life we were trying for our second child. Second child is born and at her first check up at six weeks hubby asks the doctor if there was anything he could give me to help pep up my sex drive. Our doctor shook his head and laughed, she has just had a baby mate, give it a break. In the six years leading up to d’day I could have pick me danced seven vail style and not sparked interest, hubby always had an excuse as to why he didn’t or couldn’t have sex, the inability to get an erection left we conceded for his health. It didn’t matter what I did or how much I tried to engaged with hubby the only time he engaged sexually was when I began to question his fidelity this was his way of getting me back on side and not question him, but it was always short lived and then we would be back to weeks of nothing. All while he repeatedly chipped away at my self esteem, I use to get so frustrated at the lack of intimacy and the constant need I felt to self evaluate in order to try and work out what I was doing wrong, all in the hope he would reconnect and be the husband I trusted I was getting as that naive young woman.

    Even after hubby confessed to eight years of doing dudes the eldership of the church was very clear that hubbies actions could not be his fault/choice, no it had to but because he was afflicted by a religious spirit, or he must have been damaged as a child, oh and I had to own my part in the issue as the submissive wife or in their view my lack there of.

    • Hi Thankful – wow, I’m so sorry you had to go through all that CRAP. I hope you are in a happier place these days.

      • Thanks, yeah much better than I was. I face the jerkoff tomorrow at court regarding parenting issues. But my focus will be on our girls getting heard. His level of dysfunction is no longer a reflection on me as mush as he would still like to blame me for everything that doesn’t go his way.

  • Done4Ever. Hear hear. FUCK IT! That’s what I say and get it out. So sorry this happened after you put your toe back in the water, but that’s exactly why I’ll never do it again. I KNOW I will get burned. Everybody has a motive. (oh? you have a bit of money? Oh, nice car. Oh? you can afford pickles?) (no, I haven’t dated, but I can just imagine the convo)

    I got burnt too bad the first time around after 35 yrs. I figured, if this up-standing guy that I loved to death and everybody loved and successful and yayayayah…had a 3 yr affair and walked out. Well, if I couldn’t trust him – there’s NO way I’m going to trust a guy so easily. Since he had a 3 yr affair with my BFF, I also don’t trust women all that much either.

    No, I do not want to be bitter.
    But, I am liking my life alone and I really don’t know anybody all that well, even myself, but I’m getting better at it.
    Yeah – and it can get lonely, for sure.

    I recently had a shitty thing happen with some new neighbors who moved in and befriended me far too quickly (my spider sense was up). How naive I was to accept all this. To say their motive was less than honorable after a 4 mo relationship is an understatement.
    Husband and wife team. Not sure what they were about but my head is still spinning from their abuse and weirdness. My friend picker is badly damaged.

    ack – I wanted to meet new people at first.
    Now, I’m just happy with my 4-5 good friends and a bunch of my dogs.

    Wishing you happiness, that elusive happiness…

    • Hey Shechump – Thanks for the “love” and support! Yep, you nailed it. It had been a long time since I’d opened up to a man – and then to get royally screwed over by a freakin’ Psychopath! I asked God, after the DISCARD – “Was this some kind of CRUEL JOKE Lord???”

      Damn, Your EX had an affair with your BFF?!?!?!?! THAT SUCKS BIG TIME!!! And I’m sorry about your creepy neighbors too. People are just so screwed these days. I don’t trust anybody anymore, and I never used to be that way.

      Wishing you the BEST of whatever it is that makes you happy!!

      • Thank D4E! Learned a huge lesson from last freaky fast friends, about >that< fast. People WILL take advantage of you. I was so naive before. Ha. Ha. I"m sorry I lost my innocence after the betrayal of his A, and I know I won't have the respect of a social circle, without a husband by my side, and already married women with husbands are looking at me in my new neighborhood after a get-together, that I might steal one of their husbands (probbly in my head), but it was uncomfortable.
        I don't need people like I used to anymore anyway.

        Too many dinner parties over the years. Far too less amount of friends to answer for that. Waste of time? yeah, maybe – fun while it lasted.

        But, I'm not even putting in a kitchen table in my new little old home. I'm tired of the big dinner parties and don't intend to entertain folks unless they want to sit on dog beds. Kind of fun being late 50's and you can do whatever you want.

        I like my life. I eat fairly well and have my 2 Danes left (just lost my 3rd one suddenly this week) – so many losses, so little time..and I just DON'T WANT ANYMORE FRIENDS! ok. 🙂 At least this week. People are mean when you are suddenly single. But, just my experience.

        I hate all of this.
        But, I'm getting into the mud anyway.
        And, trying to paint a new little house..trying so hard to forget all about this shit.

        • Shechump – I totally get it. It’s been my experience over the years that single women aren’t very welcomed in “couples social circles” ~ Funny, but the same doesn’t seem to be the case for men.

          Yeah, When I was married I used to do the magnanimous homemaker/hostess thing too. Actually I liked having people over and entertaining, but I haven’t done that for so many years I wouldn’t know how to act! Ha! ~~ And I use my dinning room table for my laptop, and then I’ll cover it with a towel on the days I decide to paint. Yeah, I took up painting in my old age (on canvas)! I like it. ~~~ Oh, and I have a china cabinet with all my good stuff gathering DUST.

          Sorry about your dog. 🙁

          Hang in there GF, it will get better – at least that’s what I’m told. 🙂

  • If you personally don’t want commitment, marriage and children, thats your business. Stop generalising that ‘ALL’ men are like that – because they are not. And you’re deluded if you think that.

  • Who the fuck is this twit? 19 kids? Its a vagina, not a fucking clown car – you can’t look after 19 kids yourself.
    What a nutjob.

  • Read up on the Cluster B personality disorders, Done4. You may be able to spot these types better in the future. They are great at hiding their true selves, but one can become better at spotting them.

    • Arnold, boy you’re not kidding. Trust me, I’ve read enough books and articles on the subject the past several months, I could write my own book. Yes, they DO hide well – until you’re hooked – then the mask starts to slip – until they come in for the KILL – The Final Brutal Discard (complete with “new supply” replacement).

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