Stay in Touch

Check out CL's Book

Debunking Monogamish

pretendmonogamyAs Dan Savage came up in comments the other day, I thought it was time to rerun this column, lest anyone is confused about his pronouncements on monogamy. — Tracy

I’ve taken on Dan Savage before and it always pains me. I’m a fan of his anti-bullying campaign, his DTMFA (dump the motherfucker already) acronym, his renaming former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum, (thanks to the politician’s homophobia), for a frothy anal/lube byproduct.

But I think someone dropped Savage on his head when he starts to talk about monogamy. It’s like your favorite uncle getting drunk at a wedding and starting to rail against the Zionist One World Order or something. Oh God, please stop. Please shut up. I can’t respect you if you go on like this.

Apparently, Savage was in Australia last year on a speaking tour. An alert chump sent me a news article about his speech.

American advice columnist Dan Savage has been one of the loudest new voices, decrying monogamy as dangerous and damaging. Many people just aren’t wired for it, Savage says, and our stubbornly romantic ideal of marriage means partners won’t talk about it, publicly or privately. In a lecture in Sydney last year, Savage explained his idea of “monogamish” — a committed relationship in which either or both parties might have an occasional dalliance,
and the other either approves or forgives.

All the positives of a happy marriage, he says — stability, security, children, property, a shared history — shouldn’t be thrown out because of one or two episodes of cheating. Savage, a gay man, invented the term to describe his own marriage, claiming infrequent infidelities, discussed openly and honestly, had strengthened the relationship, perhaps even saved it.

“We need to stop seeing cheating as some relationship extinction-level event,” he told a packed audience. “If someone cheats on you once or twice, they are good at monogamy, not bad.”

Savage doesn’t want us all to give up on monogamy altogether. He wants us to concede its limitations and to be realistic and honest about our relationships. To admit to the boredom and overfamiliarity, to the occasional need to flirt, the fleeting desire to break out of the loving shackles snapped tight by wedding vows and run amok.

Gah. Where to begin?

Hey, Australian journalist! In your fervor to celebrate fucking around, you mixed your metaphors. Shackles snapped tight and run amok? That makes for quite the interesting visual. Handcuffs, compelled by the mysterious forces of monogamy, drag hapless cheaters… like the pick-up truck of doom and marital boredom…

Jesus. Journalists love the cake.

Anyway, back to Dan Savage — you deserve a slap upside the head for “If someone cheats on you once or twice, they are good at monogamy, not bad.”

No, they’re BAD at monogamy. Mono means ONE. One partner. Commitment. I wonder where Savage tips the scales at being bad at monogamy? 8, 10, 17, 49? What if you only have one affair but it produces a child and your husband has to paternity check his kid? Are you still good at monogamy? What if you get an STD off your two affairs? Are these flings, or years long affairs? “Hey! I only cheated with ONE person, but it was over the course of 20 years! I’m GOOD at monogamy!” What if you buy hookers occasionally with the rent money? Are you still good at monogamy?

WTF Dan?

As a gay man, do you really want to diss monogamy — my sexual life choice — as “dangerous and damaging”? Seriously? I have to take this shit off of you? Because here’s the thing, Dan, I CHOSE to be monogamous. My husband CHOSE it too. By total free will! I know, it may strike you as unnatural. You may think to yourself, “Ewww. Two middle-aged straights going at it. With only each other. For time immortal. Yuck!”

I don’t judge your sexuality — don’t judge mine.

If you want to have an open relationship with your husband, and that works for you — fine. God bless. Everybody is on board and you manage the risks with aforethought and consideration? Have at it.

You cheat on your husband? You make unilateral decisions about his health and welfare, and expect him to eat the shit sandwich that hey, you only fucked up a couple times? You’re still “good” at monogamy. YOU SUCK. I would tell him to DTMFA.

We’re on the same board about being “realistic and honest about our relationships.” If you can’t be monogamous, be honest about that. But don’t call it monogamy. (You call it “monogam-ish.”)

Enough with the double speak. Cheating is NOT realistic or honest. It’s getting your sexual jollies at another person’s expense. It’s about chumping someone. It’s saying one set of rules for me! another set of rules for you! It’s gaming the system to enjoy advantages not conferred to others — which makes you an entitled asshole, not a sexual sophisticate.

The monogamy argument is a red herring. You have free will. If monogamy is too hard, speak up and arrange your sex life honestly. But don’t cheat. Cheating is not monogamy’s fault — it’s shitty character. It’s so hard to be monogamous… waaah! No. Honest conversations are hard. Giving up entitlement is hard. Monogamy is just a choice that you either consent to or don’t. No one holds a gun to your head.

What’s pernicious about arguments like this, however, is they are designed to keep chumps in their place. They keep entitlement alive with the mindfuckery of “If someone cheats on you once or twice, they’re good at monogamy, not bad.” That’s like my cheating ex saying “hey, the affairs didn’t take that much TIME.”

Time management is not the point. Respect is the point. You cheat on someone, you deprive them of their free will and say in the matter. Cheaters decide shit unilaterally and keep secrets because they don’t want anyone to be the boss of them. Monogamy isn’t going to boss them around and keep them shackled!

I’m also struck by people who argue this monogamy is so hard shit, how they’re so cock sure their chump is going to be waiting for them. Hey, my flings are “meaningless”! Keep investing in me. And then to say “stability, security, children, property, a shared history — shouldn’t be thrown out because of one or two episodes of cheating” — yeah, stay together for the CHILDREN! For the property values! Don’t you value those things? If you do, I think you should over look a few instances of infidelity. This is just an argument for cake.

If you can arrange cake as an open marriage — best of luck with that. But don’t advocate cheating and then guilt chumps into staying because of their investment. How can you walk away from stability and your children?

I know it’s hard for sexually sophisticated people like Esther Perel and Dan Savage and Elizabeth Gilbert to comprehend, but some people enjoy being cherished exclusively. They desire who they have. They feel blessed for it. They aren’t dead to the attractions of the outside world, but they have boundaries. They respect their partner and feel safe in the respect their partner has for them. We aren’t freaks or jail keepers with shackles “snapped tight” forcing people to commit to us.

We love with our whole hearts, and live by our words. We’re GOOD at monogamy. And if you can’t keep pace? We’ll dump your cheating ass. Consider yourself unshackled.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Amen and pass the biscuits. All this talk about “enlightened people realize monogamy is passe” bullshit is designed to introduce cognitive dissonance in chumps. We think, “Hey, infidelity feels shitty, but I want to think of myself as enlightened & educated, and wordly….oh, dilemma.”

    GFY, Dan, you don’t need to fuck strange and violate your marriage vows to be enlightened or worldly. Some of the most sophisticated people (wine connoisseurs, literature experts, world-renowned speakers) I know are in 40-year monogamous relationships.

    • “All this talk about ‘enlightened people realize monogamy is passe’ bullshit is designed to introduce cognitive dissonance in chumps.”

      Truth, Tempest.

    • Exactly. It’s a simple case of agreement. If you make an agreement and you don’t keep it and lie about it, you’re being a self-serving dick. This is not rocket science.

      If you mostly bine your partner but sometimes you don’t and your partner knows that and tolerates it, that’s an agreement, too, but that agreement is not called monogamy or anything that sounds like it. You can’t be pregnantish or aliveish either. Monogamous is not a gray area. You are or you aren’t. Again, not rocker science.

      Clickbait Savage is just trying to make himself feel.better (and publicly humiliating his partner, which shows just how little his respect for the poor man goes.)

      • Fantastic!!!!!!!!!! “You can’t be Pregnantish or Aliveish either. Monogamous is not a gray area.”

        STD-ISH?

        Savage explained his idea of “monogamish” Monogamish = truthiness, truthy-ness, truthee-ness?

    • Savage’s strategy of cognitive dissonance is at the root of all Political Correctness: make large numbers of people doubt their values, ethics, morality. “You are so uncool, un-evolved, stupid, racist, homophobe, unenlightened, scorned spouse, ….” It can be effective at shutting down any opposition’s argument and speech. Fact-based argument and education would be better than name calling or this inferred guilt for legitimate concerns. Ask the people of the EU how they are feeling this morning, after their discomforts were discredited by their leaders and the PC crowd? Somehow, somewhere when the shit hits the fan, the pendulum swings back just a bit, perhaps the monogamish types will recede…but I am not holding my breath.

      • By sleight of hand. Couch your position in pseudo-intellectual babble, with an air of confidence and frisson of sophistication, and people won’t notice that you’ve moved the penny from underneath the cup.

      • I just watched Savage’s video on the topic. It was very engaging and personalized, citing examples with his own relationship as template, citing credentialed others who emphasized his points. Hey, I am all good that he was OK when his partner fell in love with someone else but still loved him too. It sounds at times that Savage is more in love with his partner’s big schlong, the home he provides for their son while he is on the road, and the fact that he is now open to being monogamish. He feels ending a relationship because of a blow-job at a business conference doesn’t consider all things in the balance. But how come it is the betrayed that has to consider these things after the fact, and NOT the cheater beforehand? For him, male and female are forever contemplating screwing the waitress and the personal trainer because of a biology we inherited and we are wired to succumb. I just can’t identify with that one.
        No talk of integrity, character or as Tempest has mentioned, the evolutionary repression of baser urges.
        At the beginning he cites we should follow more the Bill and Hillary Clinton model rather than the Mark & Jenny Sanford model. Somehow, I don’t think Hillary was ever on board with Bill’s disrespect, unless she was about her business doing the same.

  • I guess that makes me… “excellent” at monogamy, instead of just “good” at it, since I never cheated?

    It’s not as if monogamy is like baseball, where if you fail at hitting less than 70% of the time, you are headed for the hall of fame. I mean, we have plenty of examples of monogamy that have lasted entire relationships, sometimes even adult lifetimes.

    If you fail at monogamy and recognize that it’s abhorrent, then you might have a shot at redeeming your character, provided you get professional help for your destructive choices and make amends to those you hurt.

    If you fail at monogamy, are ashamed of it, and don’t get help, then you’re probably dumb as well as character-flawed.

    If you fail at monogamy and aren’t ashamed of it, then you’re probably disordered.

    Only recovery from destructive behavior should be celebrated; life doesn’t give more points for intentions than it does for actions.

  • Monogamy is dangerous and damaging?
    Many people just aren’t wired for it?
    This shit is pathetic. What the hell is our world coming to? Nobody respects or gives a shit about anybody else anymore. It is only ME ME ME….. And to have these jackasses convincing people it is ok to go and disrespect and destroy their own family – because you must be one of them who “just isn’t wired” to be faithful.
    This crap is just sad…

    • Absolutely right Lady Strange!! The problem with this shit and these people is that so many have become desensitized and accepting of this bullshit….years ago if you cheated on your wife or abandoned your family you were SHUNNED, people felt morally obligated to OUST your ass. Now….everyone just looks the other way….easier for them. Shameful.

      • Another excuse to justify Cheating, You’re right NCStevie, they are desensitized and an article like this only supports their selfishness.
        They should be ashamed rather than believe they’re new age or acting out on their natural instincts.
        After X left us for his “something different” I was appalled at how many people were so easily accepting of him leaving our 20 year marriage and our family. I was looked down upon as the pathetic wife who failed.
        I was left with nothing feeling bruised and guilty, I felt like a failure after all my years of being his supportive wife, while he was gloating with his new single lifestyle..

        • Left me for something different. I wasn’t replaced it was a lateral move. That’s what I was told. The s and m bondage shit whore is into and her bug bucks is what got his attention and everybody thinks its my fault. Fuck them all.

          • X has lots of people convinced I was the reason he had to find his
            “something different” he had been telling them I’m unstable, bipolar and
            an alcoholic, he said, “he had tried everything and couldn’t take it anymore.”
            How about talking to me, if he had a problem. I suggested therapy
            he wasn’t interested,
            I think he meant when he said I tried everything, is tried everything
            to hurt me and to get me to leave.
            If I did have the mental illnesses he claimed I have,
            Is that what you do when someone you love is
            suffering from an illness is abandon them?
            All bullshit, fuck them all is precisely how I feel.
            I’ve seen a couple of these people out shopping and they have
            run up to me to say hello, Let’s just say they were sorry afterwards.
            I have nothing to say to these idiots.

            • But of course, why talk to me about issues, why find out if menopause brought on my depression, I tried talking to him til I was blue in the face. Tried anything and everything, begged even. Nothing alpha male knows all. I begged him for help and he blew me off. Asswipe has big time emotional and anger issues. Both kids have anger issues and tend not to listen or hear and forge ahead without thinking just like him. I can’t do anything about asswipe but I’m working on the kids. They have some of their fathers traits I won’t put up with. I just have to be patient til the house is settled then I can say goodbye to asswipe forever. He says no he will hunt me down and find me cause he loves me, still in love with me and won’t ever let me go completely. Why the hell is that? You haven’t done enough damage fuck face?

              • We never had a conversation about our relationship. X has a short temper and it became shorter in the year before he left, lots of angry outbursts.
                It became increasingly tense living with him. I asked what was bothering him,
                he said because his mom was sick. X had been (supposedly) visiting his mom who lived on the opposite coast once a month, that alone should have been a huge red flag for me.
                His temper, angry outbursts continued to increase as well as his insults before he left. His continued dark mood and sulking were also becoming more frequent.
                We have a son who X alienated from me when our son was 16.
                He went from a good student, bright, optimistic boy to a sullen, dark, EMO,
                grades slipped, scary. X laughed at me when I became concerned.
                I felt helpless, tried everything, court ordered counseling for our son
                X didn’t take him, told court, our son didn’t want to go.
                Not thinking of our son and how his immature behavior will ruin
                our sons life. X is only concerned with hurting me and he obviously doesn’t care if he’s ruined our sons life along the way.

                Our son and I were once close but now he’s so much like his father, arrogant, condescending, rude and has the anger issues if things don’t go his way,
                Doesn’t listen to anything you say just like father, he interrupts, when you’re talking and quick to argue. He has little respect for me unless he wants something,
                Knows everything just like his father, refuses to listen.
                X is a poor example for his son to follow and continues to be.
                He’s relentless playing games doing his best to make my life miserable.

              • Brit and Kar Marie and everyone 🙂

                …another shared trait with these disordered assholes…the wanting to hurt us…even after the divorce is final and all…why do they continue to make hurting us their prime objective in life???? satan blamed me for everything he did…I don’t understand.

                NC is the only way to get away from the drama and chaos they perpetuate…

              • I can’t go no contact for awhile. His business is still here at my house. He has six months to buy the house, he doesn’t I will sell it. But I go limited contact. Told him if he needs to talk to me email me. Blocked his cell and texts. He’s pissed keeps saying it doesn’t matter when he goes back to other whore (she is pouring on the charm and being cling wrap now she knows our divorce is tomorrow to get him back) he and I can still be friends. Uh no we ain’t. He just doesn’t get it.

              • I am so sorry you have to live that way. I know what you are going through. satan talked about his hos to me like we were best friends not married 30 years…thank goodness none of that makes sense to me…I felt like I was in a conversation with a 3 year old most of the time. I remember thinking, “Good Lord he behaves like a toddler that’s been wooled too much and needs a nap!” …that was my Grandma in my head tryin to get through to me…RUN from the evil boy man!

                Good luck tomorrow! What a relief it will be!!! I know it will go well! Please let us know!

                Again, they are all the same…Lord please I never want to get involved with another one…in any shape or form, or any type of relationship.

              • Ahhhh the “friend” card. It’s just another way to let them off the hook. Look at me, how good and honorable I am. Look how I am generous and noble enough to be her “friend” even though she failed me so much I had to find love elsewhere.
                After a counseling session this week, in which my counselor showed me how manipulative he is, I finally realized I don’t have to be friends with anyone who took everything from me.
                Asshole, he destroyed the “friendship” not me. And now I may be brave enough to let people know.

              • Everyone will know who asks me I will tell how and what he destroyed. Everyone tells me its better to be friends forgive and forget! Fuck that who the hell condones bad and dishonest behavior. You fuck me over you are dead to me. He had ample time to be honest and open before he strayed. Much more fun to destroy me and our relationship. What now he wants to be my best buddy. Lookie here, I fucked her over every which way from Sunday but she loves me we are friends! See what a great guy I am!! Fuck him.

              • Amen! None of our friends wanted to choose sides. So I chose for them. I do not need to retain relationships with anyone who enables him in maintaining his facade. I have written a lot of people off, and when they ask, I tell them why. You can’t support me, and support his calculated campaign to protect himself from consequences. I don’t need that shit.

              • Yes Michelle…it is amazing how blind they are to their behavior and the resulting devastation… I was all but completely destroyed, mostly by who he REALLY IS than by the infidelity – not that it didn’t play a big part in my decision to divorce, it did – but…the horror I saw before me was MIND BENDING and kept me trapped in that hellish circular thinking for the first 3 years. Thank God he was removed from the house by the police and the court and couldn’t come back. …I would probably still be with him if that hadn’t happened…that was the dynamic of our 36 year relationship…I just didn’t know what I was dealing with until he was removed from my life completely. Oh the horror! Ugly and terrible things were hiding under his mask. …how I never saw it is beyond me…as is how he could hide it so well.

              • I think it will be hard to get him to leave me alone. My kids want me to stay friends with him. I can’t. I won’t. The kids just don’t understand. He was my one great love. I won’t get involved with anyone ever again. Its just not worth it.

              • Monsters just don’t make good friends…they are liable to eat you when your back is turned…yes…there will be no ‘friends’ with satan and I either…no ‘family’ gatherings with that wolf in sheep’s clothing…no dinning at my table eating my hard won serenity…ain’t happenin. I have struggled so hard to detach my head and my heart from that hellish drama I will not even entertain the idea. It turns my stomach to imagine it. Stick to your guns and don’t worry about what others think…they have no idea what you have been through, they can’t make informed decisions for you.

              • Good decision Michelle to decide for them, If they’re on the fence they might as well say they take the Cheaters side. I found that out the hard way.
                I’ve since learned my lesson, I refuse to acknowledge anyone who is on the fence or I hear them make any excuse for X or tell me what a great guy he is.
                A great guy doesn’t cheat on their wife of 20 years, a great guy doesn’t destroy lives, or betrays their family by cheating.

                The worst part to me was when I realized how cruel and vindictive he is and how easily he lies to hurt me and leave me with nothing after all my support over the years and his promises of great life and future to look forward to.

            • Yes….to ALL of the above. Fuck that being friends shit, why would I ever want to be friends with anyone who could fuck me over so continuously and completely without one morsel of remorse or regret??

              And that whole “I just couldn’t take it anymore, I TRIED” bullshit….. like I said previously, they’ve been lining their escape up long before we knew it. Crying victim, woah is me….. telling their sob story to everyone and painting us as the bad guy so their asses are figuritively covered when the shit hits the fan.

              X-hole tricked me the first time I caught his cheating ass with sweet talk, false wreckonciliation and promises to go to counseling. Prick. He had no intention of going to counseling. Doesn’t matter if it’s you….the neighbor… their friend or a counselor….. they can NOT internalize the fact that they are wrong. He went to the counselor ONCE with me, in the beginning when I only feared his attention was being misplaced with a “friend”. He didn’t like that the counselor (obviously) was in agreement with me (not an appropriate friend if he couldn’t include me) and he refused to go back.

              Sometimes I want to smack myself, swear I almost lied to myself as much as he lied to me. Swore I’d never be “that kind” of woman…..the kind that”doesn’t WANT to know…..and….I was. Helps to realize that I wasn’t really me anymore, I started to disappear once the devaluing started.

          • In addition, Chumps sit back critiquing their Chumps, listing all of the Chumps, short comings in their mind, finding faults, then comparing Chump to “something different, more in common” sparkles, sparkly AP
            AP, GF has the time to prepare herself for cheater, Cheater sees Sparkles, she sparkles, fresh, make up perfect, not a hair out of place, dressed appropriatley, always smiling and so happy to see cheater.
            Looking over Chump, in all her Chumpiness, hasn’t showered, doing laundry, taking care of kids, volunteering, shopping for and preparing lunches and the family meals, cleaning house, scheduling appointments, dogs to take to the vt, taking care of everyones needs before our own.
            Cheaters, minds aren’t thinking, Chump is constantly busy doing things for everyone and taking care of us how nice, I love her.
            No, in Chumps mind we’re not cutting it, look what’s Chump has got on today.., her hair is tied back, she isn’t wearing nail polish, Chump is a mess, unlike Sparklie who takes care of herself…smells good, and appreciates me. I deserve to be appreciated,
            So what if she gave birth to our children, took care of our babies, took care of my elderly parents, stayed married to me when I was unemployed, helped me get where I am today. Sparklie would be able to all that and still look perfect and appreciate me.
            I deserve to be with Sparkles and too bad if I’m an asshole to Chump, she doesn’t appreciate the adonis that I am. who can blame me? Chump is wearing sweats, again! mopping our floor.. cleaning our toilets..,
            Cheaters will feel sorry for themselves for having to put up with our chump asses when theres a vibrant fresh sparkley AP just waiting to appreciate the Cheater.
            This is the kind of attitude this article glorifys.

            • I forgot to mention menopause, never asks how you are. I had a hysterectomy all X had to say is, God, your so needy when I asked if he would mind helping me out of bed to use the restroom. Never came into the room (when I came home) to ask if I needed anything. I would ask for a drink and maybe an hour later he’ bring me my drink.. Disordered, selfish, vindictive , jerks.

              • Reading theses posts are so familiar, it’s like I’m reading my story.
                Jeep, my X has been unbelievably vindictive and cruel and is relentless.
                So may lies and after being sworn in. Mr. Integrity.
                Cheater would tell me detailed stories of women he met while out on a trip or had flown with. I would think the same thing he sounds like a giddy child or teenager.. I thought it was weird after a while I was tired of hearing the same story over and over about the girl he talked to at the hotel Gym.
                NCStevie I lied to myself and made so many excuses for his stories that didn’t add up.
                I remember when I was around19 and an older women (in late thirties maybe) was going through an ugly divorce, I remember telling myself how I never wanted ti be involved in anything like that.., and here I am. living the nightmare.

  • My STBX said these exact words, “hey, the affairs didn’t take that much TIME.” That plus telling me that even though he spent thousands of our dollars on the whores it didn’t impact our lifestyle, so what’s my problem. He only had two affairs during our 18 year marriage and wanted a fucking gold medal for his restraint.

    • “Only had two affairs” sounds like my STBX! He only cheated three times, during 20 years of marriage, and only with women he loved (he even told me it was never just sex, always about true love, as if that makes the cheating and lying ok)! Doesn’t he deserve a medal too for his restraint?

      • These people are so confused.
        Giving away your love is the worst part!
        How about you tell your Chump they don’t fulfill you, divorce them, and then look for some one to find ‘true love’ with? I think your STBX is in love with someone- himself!

  • Well mine cheated, then made a baby then left now wants a load of money off me. It’s all harmless fun right?

      • Rumble kitty – Fuck it, cheating happens, pregnancy happens, men play “musical dads” to all the kids. – when the music stops, you reside with the family you’re with till the music starts again.

        And it’s all one big love fest

        • Sorry, hh, I’m going to disagree. Unless you are an animal, without conscious thought process, monogamy is always a CHOICE. No one ever died from not fucking a strange crotch. In fact, I’m pretty certain no one has actually died from not fucking, in general.

          • My point is what I just said. I think it was pretty self explanatory. People have free choice. They are not controlled by their genitals.

          • HH–You do know the difference between DESIRES and ACTIONS, right? For example, every time I walk past a Cinnabon shop, I DESIRE to eat about 4 of those tasty things. But I never DO it? Why? Clogs the arteries, and puts on weight, and gives only empty calories.

            So why the discrepancy? PREFRONTAL CORTEX (which, by the way *evolved* along with hormones for lactation, and the rest of the brain).

            If you think there is a direct relationship from DESIRE–>ACTION, and thus all actions based on desire are justified, I have a few questions for you:
            1-If you feel the urge to urinate, do you simply do so on any public street, or in the middle of a middle-management meeting?

            2-If someone steps on your toe accidentally in a movie line, do you bash them in the face (and apologize later)?

            3-If you see a kid on Halloween eating your favorite candybar, do you knock him over, grab his candy bar and run?

            4-If you see an attractive woman and feel a little stirring in the loins, do you run up and grab her breasts and rub your willie against her?

            No? See how self-control of primitive urges works?

            • Thank you for your excellent comment, Tempest. Your insights are always so good, I enjoy them.

              Hh–my point is (actually there are two)
              1. Cheating is always a CHOICE.
              2. Cheating is always WRONG.

              Thanks to the powerful combo of Chump Lady and Divorce Minister, I have been able to recover what I had known all along. See points 1 and 2 above.

              Due to cheater ex, the whore he affiliated himself with, and yes, the RIC I lost sight of those truths. But I never will again. When I read drivel by anyone even remotely, or not remotely, endorsing adultery of any form it doesn’t bother me one bit. I think I’ve heard it all by now anyway. There is nothing new under the sun.

              So there you have it. Maybe I can write the world’s shortest book.

              All I need to Know About Adultery, I Learned From CL and DM.
              Chapters:
              Cheating is always a CHOICE.
              Cheating is always WRONG.
              The End.

          • HH–in a marriage, BOTH parties get to have a say in what form the marriage takes. Imagine I am playing Monopoly with you, and I unilaterally decide that if I roll snake-eyes, I get to confiscate all your properties. You get mad and accuse me of cheating, or bait n switch. THAT is what happens in infidelity–one partner unilaterally changes the rules and then (perhaps) hopes that the other partner accepts those rules and keeps playing, OR just keeps playing by the set of rules that give them the advantage at the expense of the other partner.

            Why is this hard? You keep saying “there are arguments for and against” Savage’s view, and Tracy’s view. Pray tell, what are they? I’m not hearing specifics to be able to evaluate those arguments.

            And WHY exactly are you trying to make those arguments here? I suspect you’re a very subtle troll, but feel free to convince me otherwise. Your arguments from evolutionary psych consist of saying we have biological urges to fuck around. But our primitive selves also ran around naked or in loincloths, shat wherever we felt like it, ate raw meat, and men killed infants so that the women would come into their fertility cycle sooner. Which of those evolutionary urges are you advocating?

          • HH I hear you and all of the other people who want to argue about biology, some of them in my own family. But having been in some shitty relationships, I ask you is getting punched in the face a few times in front of your child worth sacrificing the team effort of parenting for? Hmmm, what about child protection agencies coming round to interview you? I stayed in that relationship for too long.

            On this occasion, the cheating one was even more damaging, and it’s something you have to experience to understand. My fingers would drop off typing it all out. I’m so glad I found chumplady because she explains all those things you couldn’t get your head round. You know it’s wrong and it’s damaging, but you’re not sure why. What’s a little fucking after all?

          • Hh. Nothing. There is either an open relationship amoung two consenting adults or not. Don’t bother to get married if that’s the case. Its possible a relationship could survive an affair, possible mine survived three but no more. Fuck butt made a promise and vow to me. How about honestish.. I honor my vows and promises never cheated on him ever , never lied or put his health at risk like he did to me with unsafe sex. Please if you want someone else end the relationship and fucking goooooooooo!!!! End of sentence. Period. Dan savage and anyone else who says cheating is a good thing SHOULD. BE. SHOT!

          • …ok…(forehead slap)…people who want to sleep with multiple partners should have the MATURITY to be up front and honest about it AND NOT lie to get themselves into a MARRIAGE OF CONVENIENCE.

            …the convenience of having a FAITHFUL wife (wife appliance – LOVE THAT! It explains my role in my x life PERFECTLY) taking care of needs so you can be assured of WHATEVER that looks like – extra paycheck, clean sheets / laundry, home cooked meals, care when you are sick, etc.

            …the convenience of having a FAITHFUL husband (husband appliance)…etc.

            …freeing cheaters to HAVE THEIR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!!

            GET IT NOW???

          • Its a choice…and everyone should be able to make THEIR OWN CHOICE…with the facts…

            …being used and abused by a disordered person is the most horrendous…you think you are going crazy and they WANT you to…you think you are horrible and they WANT you to think you are and IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT…you think you should probably just kill yourself AND THEY WANT YOU TO! …my mother and my little brother died…and that hurt so bad I though the grief would kill me…but NOTHING compares to the soul shattering devastation caused by a relationship (36 years of manipulation) with a disturbed, entitled, soulless person. I truly did not think the pain, anxiety, fear, disabling FEAR would ever leave me.

            …and it was all because he got caught playing his game…I had to be punished…mentally, emotionally and physically… Mature, mentally healthy adults do not act this way…they have a frank discussion and then make a choice…stay and work on it or go…not punish someone that loves them cause they got caught! PUNISHED WITH THE LOVE THEY HAVE FOR THE ABUSER!

            …maybe that is the problem…you think you are reading about mature, mentally healthy adults…what you are reading here is the pain of folks trying to make sense of and heal from ABUSE…SADISTIC UNCARING ENTITLED ABUSE

        • “does monogamy still apply once the children are adults, and left the nest, the female is menopausal and there are to be no more offspring?”

          Does your mortgage still apply if your bank decides it wants to sell your house to a construction company who will erect condos on your property? Does your employer still owe you the $$ in your 401K if it decides the CEO wants to take a Caribbean vacation instead? Does a university still owe a graduate a diploma if, in the student’s final semester, they decide 240 credits are needed for the diploma?

          Contract is a contract, unless it is mutually re-negotiated. Had I still been married, and wanted to fuck people I picked up at plays when I started to hit menopause, I think I would have required to get the approval of spouse before doing so (even if progeny couldn’t result). Sometimes, HH, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It makes people overconfident that they know what they are talking about.

          • HH–see my subsequent comment. Reading a facile 2 page article on evolutionary psych is not going to give you the full picture. Reproductive & evolutionary success requires that a sufficient number of one’s children make it to reproductive age to keep passing on one’s genes. In species with altricial (helpless) infants, that typically requires the efforts of two parents. Thus, monogamy IS evolutionarily-based in such species.

            The evolutionary principle of inclusive fitness also argues that it is worth forgoing having children of one’s own if you can instead protect 5 nieces/nephews (thereby passing on 125% of one’s genes to the next generation). In other words, the biological urge to fuck anything that moves is NOT adaptive in most circumstances. (“The Selfish Gene” by Dawkins is an interesting place to start.)

          • It’s possible your education was more biologically based, rather than focusing on the evolution of behaviors (including mating behavior). There are clear mating strategy differences between species who have altricial youth vs. precocious youth. Investment in the former is much greater, and those species are more prone to monogamy or serial monogamy (and have smaller litters because investment is necessary). Species with precocious youth tend to have much larger litters, and less parental investment–they bank on the fact that few infants will survive, and thus have more of them.

          • Not true; he became popular in the 70s/80s; below is a list of his books. Furthermore, your claim that “there are virtually no species that are monogamous” is misleading–there are virtually no species who are UNIVERSALLY monogamous, but there are certainly species in which the MAJORITY of individuals are monogamous (or serially monogamous).

            The Selfish Gene. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1976. ISBN 0-19-286092-5.
            The Extended Phenotype. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1982. ISBN 0-19-288051-9.
            The Blind Watchmaker. New York: W. W. Norton & Company. 1986. ISBN 0-393-31570-3.
            River Out of Eden. New York: Basic Books. 1995. ISBN 0-465-06990-8.
            Climbing Mount Improbable. New York: W. W. Norton & Company. 1996. ISBN 0-393-31682-3.
            Unweaving the Rainbow. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. 1998. ISBN 0-618-05673-4.
            A Devil’s Chaplain. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. 2003. ISBN 0-618-33540-4.
            The Ancestor’s Tale. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. 2004. ISBN 0-618-00583-8.
            The God Delusion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. 2006. ISBN 0-618-68000-4.
            The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution. Free Press (United States), Transworld (United Kingdom and Commonwealth). 2009. ISBN 0-593-06173-X.
            The Magic of Reality: How We Know What’s Really True. Free Press (United States), Bantam Press (United Kingdom). 2011. ISBN 978-1-4391-9281-8. OCLC 709673132.[154]
            An Appetite for Wonder: The Making of a Scientist. Ecco Press (United Kingdom and United States). 2013. ISBN 978-0-06-228715-1.
            Brief Candle in the Dark: My Life in Science. Ecco Press (United States and United Kingdom). 2015. ISBN 978-006228843

          • HH -its angood thing you appreciate the 1st year biology lecture… Cause you must have failed that class… to blame or point toward biology as a reason why some people are/are not monogamous demonstrates that you need a refresher on pyschology, sociology, humanities, religion and pathophysiology( only to name a few)
            Monogamy is a choice. Period. A higher thought than hormonal driven impulses. It is also a choice with consequences or potential consequences( depending on how good of a liar you are) and if monogamy aint yr bag… Then u tap out. Pretty strait forward.
            If we were to follow your theory… That biology or rather hormonal impulses/urges supecede logical/ moral thought than we would be running amuck …. Fighting our hormones… Or blaming our hormones for the choices we make. If that were true then pedophiles should be forgiven …its just an urge of biology… Why is it wrong? It is much deeper than biology and hormones.

        • HH–no one is discounting biological desires that serve an evolutionary function. If Francois Arnaud had shown up in a thong on my doorstep while I was still married, I absolutely would have desired to take advantage of my good luck. But I would have suppressed that desire because I was married.

          You need to read more evolutionary psych–it does not serve a man’s evolutionary purpose to pass on his genes if the progeny that result from a coupling are then killed in infancy because the mother is unprotected, or if the infants are left unattended because the mother has no one to help protect them as she seeks food. That is why repression of baser urges is ALSO evolutionary–your inclusive fitness is based on the extent to which your genes permeate the next generation, and the next, …..That can only happen if progeny survive until they themselves can reproduce, and some species (humans, wolves, some birds) have gone the way of monogamy to ensure survival of infants.

          • Keep reading–this is a fascinating and complex topic, and a single course will only allow skimming the surface. Best wishes for your studies!

          • HH
            The biology scapegoat has been bugging me all morning… I am merely ampeasant with an over active imagination and poor typing skills… Bear with me.
            So lets compare marriage to employment/ work and monogamy to work policy.
            Bob has just finished orientation at his new job. He sailed thru the orientation and signed the employee policy and practice contract( for shits and giggles lets say Bob is now married) one of the clauses states Bob has to share his pencils with his cube mate and is to forske all other pencils in the establishment. He and his work partner are given 10 yellow pencils. Off to work Bob goes. Fast forward one year and Bob notices some of the other teams have blue pencils… Some even have mechanical pencils!! And the lucky asses in payroll have Sharpie pencils. Somewhere in the back of Bobs brain his biology is telling him he wants those other pencils. He justifies it over and over in his head why he should have those pencils… And not be stuck with the stupis yellow pencils and his cube mate Bonnie. Bonnie has no idea that Bob is secretly coveting the other cubes pencils… Bonnie is busy everyday putting in time to her team with Bob but she has noticed that Bob is spending a few more ‘ breaks’ over at payroll. Bonnie is now covering for Bob when the boss is making rounds. Bonnie tries to Bob about it but he makes her feel like she is creating a problem. He tells her he is only networking and thinking of their team. Afterall if he has more skills it will only enhance his performance. He tells Bonnie that she is not a team player.
            One afternoon Bonnie notices that Bob is writing his report with a blue pencil. She asks him about it and he tells her that he has no idea how the blue pencil got into their cube. Did she bring it there?
            Another afternoon Bob has a mechanical pencil and then a Sharpie. Bonnie asks all the questions and she is told a number of lies. She wants to believe Bob, afterall they are team mates and he knows the policy about pencils. Doesnt he? Bob then confesses that he couldnt help himself … It was in his biology. Can Bonnie not understand that?
            Smart Bonnie busts out the employee handbook and reads to Bob the policy on sharing pencils. Bob chuckles and tells Bonnie very condescendingly that he signed the policy but he didnt think it was really that important.
            Pencils are everywhere!! Why does he need to settle for Bonnie and her stupid yellow pencils.
            The beauty of this story is Bonnie reported Bobs Narcs ass to HR and his ass was fired…
            For the rest of us whose pencils were shared without our consent dont buy the fucking biology bullshit.
            You want to use someone elses pencils then dont sign the policy.
            You have a choice.

          • HH you don’t seem to be aware that the area you are exploring is about emotional ‘splitting’ or compartmentalising – 1. Domestic appliance that is convenient and safe/2. I SO would do her. [I seriously advise NOT acting on this split in real life. It does not go down that well.]
            That HH, is about you and your inner world, and not about monogamy. This ‘splitting’ fails to see either 1. or 2. as a complete human being, cherished and valued for their whole selves and in their own right, flaws and all. It is about compartmentalising duty and responsibility in one box, and passion and emotion in the other.
            As this is the deepest urge of all (to be ‘got’ by another person, to be wholly loved and accepted), I wonder why you don’t seem to be interested in exploring the effort required to become the whole person who is able to have a rich and deep relationship. If you weren’t tempted by another woman, you wouldn’t have a pulse. But whole people (the majority) think it through (pre-frontal cortex) and decide that it is not worth the cost.

            I cannot tell you how hurtful it was to discover I was ‘just’ the domestic troll, who was kept on and lied to because my services as a housekeeper/childminder and property manager were useful, and that emotion and passion were reserved for the junior co-worker who was as used, but ‘make him feel better’. The pain was such that I do suspect that I did sustain some heart damage from the chest pains I get when feeling unsafe these days.
            He on the other hand doesn’t seem to be having a great time away from the troll who wants nothing to do with such an emotional fuck up (now I know who he really is). Women are not flinging themselves onto his Mighty Penis in quite the waves he imagined, in fact he probably has to pay for it now. [shrugs]. I seem to be having a better time of life than he is. Can you explain this?

            Please do not ever get married unless you have resolved this inner split. You are not bringing your whole self to the table, and it is not fair on the other person who thinks that you are.

        • You claim you don’t have all the answers – you have NONE of the answers, and you have no fucking clue.

          We have one little thing called CHOICE in the matter.

          You say “Doesn’t change biology. The same biology that makes teenage boys go crazy over girls is the same biology that drives a woman to seek validation outside of a marriage. It’s the same biology that lures women to clubs, and attracts one co-worker to another. You can not change the millions of years of evolutionary biology.that drives reproduction.” – I again, call bullshit on this. People have a CHOICE to not be ruled by their hormones – and are not consumed by them to the point where they absolutely cannot pull away. If they CHOOSE not to pull away, thats a moral failing on their part.

          I use myself as a personal example – I am not ruled by my desires – and I never went to a club to ‘hook up’ (In fact, I find the whole idea of that abhorrent). I use my CHOICE to not do that – why is it so fucking difficult for everyone else? Because they are disordered/weak willed – thats why. Its not difficult to figure this out, yet you’ll bleat about how people are ruled by their desires and other such garbage.

          Let me make this simple for you:
          If someone cannot be monogamous – they MUST have a conversation with their potential partner, at the outset, saying that. That way, the other party can make an INFORMED decision whether or not they are happy with that. If not, they can move on.
          If they are happy with that, there are ground rules and boundaries which need to be set – of which in a non-monogamous relationship there are MORE rules than the average relationship, on who is verboten, what is acceptable, who is acceptable, and so forth. These need to be discussed in detail.
          To do otherwise is cheating, and if you are a cheater, you are scum of the earth. Period. No ifs and buts, and don’t even try to argue the point otherwise – you wouldn’t argue that a guy ‘cheating’ money out of a bank by robbing it at gunpoint was acceptable, would you?

          • You’re not taking a position, yet you give space to the claptrap that Savage spews, and give it legitimancy. Right.
            Even if this is not the case – you’re saying you’re playing Switerland. In other words – you are supporting his side by passive resistance.
            Also, it was a direct quote from you, nothing I have said at all. Get your argument and facts right, before refuting it.
            I don’t think its ‘best’ to accept it – I think its ‘best’ to cull people immediately, after being cheated on. Period. If someone is willing to fuck me over, be it a relationship or otherwise – they do not get a second chance.

          • I really don’t see the need for all this intellectual mumbo-jumbo. Try the old don’t do what you wouldn’t want done to you-plain & simple. The Cheater is not honest because he/she wants to “get away” with something, but doesn’t want their partner having such advantage so they lie. They also realize being cheated on would damage their ego and self esteem and so the protection they feel for themselves does not extend to their partner. I call this immaturity.
            Let HH go crank the whole world, who cares?
            I think HH is a troll, just my opinion.
            This topic is not difficult to understand.

            • HH

              I would hardly describe a male who cheats as suffering consequences by DEFAULTING. Hmm asshole gets MY health benefits and TRIED to get my pension. Condescending remarks are noted.

          • HH intellectualising about this flies out the window when it has been done to you. I don’t like being taken advantage of, disrespected, betrayed, fucked over.
            But that is what you are parsing here. In fact, it is WORSE when your whole life is rendered unsafe, for the gratification of a 7 inch penis. Please believe me on this, I wasted a further 5 years of my life trying NOT to have that world unravelled. But you cannot undo the knowledge. Once betrayal is done, its done and (in the words of Macbeth) cannot be undone.

        • Dad, is that you?? Fuck off HH.

          I heard this crap from my dad for years… a woman is a whore if she demands he toe the line in order to be fuckable.

          Every man I ever committed to CAMPAIGNED for me to devote myself to him and only him. Once he had that devotion, then watch how his tune changed. I’m a slow learner, but I finally got it: men who campaign for my devotion are the whores… they stray away to the highest kibble bidder… commitment and devotion are worthless to them, easily won with sweet bullshit.

          HH, you and your ilk’ve been DTMFA.

    • I appreciate that he left! More honest than hiding the whole thing, ugh.
      Hope you have a fabulous lawyer, to keep your money where it belongs, in your bank account!

      • Thank you free woman, we’ll see what happens, I’m sure there’s some monetary profit he will make from his shitty actions.

        And he only left because I wasn’t really cool with the 2 wives thing. I had some requirements, he couldn’t meet them. He “decided not to decide” I count that as leaving. Perhaps I’m giving him too much credit

  • It is pretty simple. If you don’t want to be monogamous then don’t agree to it in the first place. Have your open relationship from the start, with everyone onboard with full knowledge and consent, and I’ll never criticize it.

    • I completely agree. It’s not polyamory I have a problem with; it’s that both people didn’t know they were in a polyamorous relationship.

      If someone is up front about it then it’s not a problem and I would never judge. Anything else is just plain cheating. The. End!

  • I am manogomous always have been. But I’m done with serious relationships. Relationships are great til they are not. I am too old for this shit. I just had a friend email me copies of the dozens of bondage sites asswipe is on. Damn! And Ashley madison! Gee, indanger my health why don’t you! Since 2012. The internet is great but holy crap! And asswipe uses photos from his business page to boot. He was honest to all the whores just not to me. Showed him said pages and said go ahead fuck with me in the future see what happens. Should be interesting. I may date in the future right now I’m not feeling it but I’m not a trusting soul. However, they want serious….keep walking, want a wife…..keep walking, live with me…..keep walking, live with them ….keep walking. I know now my personal space is mine and I control it. No one enter my relhm unless I say so. Ex says your still hot, dress up sexy and put yourself out there like a two dollar streetwalker I suppose. Him giving me relationship advice. Ha!!! I just give him the dead eyes. Hopefully sooner than later I will be off by myself and he can have all the women who fall in love with him instantly. They will figure it out. Me I am monogamous and I will be true blue…..to me.

    • If I understand your comment correctly, Kar Marie, I think that I am in the same boat. I don’t like it, but it’s just too risky and scary out there. PEOPLE ARE SHIT. I know it’s not ” meh”, but that’s the hardest lesson that I’ve learned from all of this. After my own D-day (6 months ago) that’s become even more apparent. Since D-day, I’ve learned that even MORE people in my circle have cheated…or they’re OWs….or OMs. They’re everywhere! I feel like I’ve been so naive to think that most people are “good” and that I’ve only associated myself with “good” people. Wrong! If I were to ever get into a monogamous relationship in the future, it would have to be with another chump like myself. For obvious reasons.

      Hey, CL, how about a section on here for “chumps in search of other chumps”? LOL

      Just kidding.

      Sort of 😉

      • I went out there (pushed myself out, for real), and immediately found another chump. I am amazed that he had a crush on me without knowing anything, and that while we told our respective stories a few months later, there were so many coincidences. We were both monogamous during 15 years. Both our partners did not do much, were lazy at home and disengaged. Last time I drove to meet him, I was ruminating the fact that my ex always gave me the impression that I could drop dead in front of him and he would not react, but I was not going to tell my new boyfriend, because we had already spoken about our exes a lot. One hour later, while hiking, he told me that his ex did not react when something happened to him, she seemed to not care; once he threw up and she just continued reading in the next room and he thought “hey I am alone …”. Amazing, it feels like this guy was sent to me to ease the grieving process. Same age, same height, same weight as my ex, but as joyful as my ex was negative.

        However, I am like you ladies. I hear so many ugly things from the mouths of common people who are supposed to be decent, I watch so many movies that teach us to be selfish and mean, and I have wasted so much of my precious days on this earth worrying about some uncommitted partner, that I do consider living on my own and do what I like the most. I am still hesitant.

        • Every single one of his friends and our friends jumped on his side praising him for having the guts to be happy come to find out most of them are cheaters. Everybody cheats so acceptable blah, blah, blah not one called to see if I was OK. Our daughter, our son and his sister are on my side but I told them not to be, its your brother, father,etc. Yell at him and let it go. He’s mostly ignored them throughout all this and is pissed cause I talk with all often and know what’s going on in their lives. I said really look at your cell when was the last time you spoke with your sister? June fathers day, did he call her for mothers day like he did for 28 years, nope. How about a text. She texted him three months ago his answer. Doing good. Love you. While looking through Hus phone he noted she always texted or called him first. She used to call and text him a lot but grew tired if being blown off. She waits for him to call or text he doesn’t. Really hard to see when you are on the inside looking out. Assholes the lot if them these cheating fucks and fuck everyone who thinks its a good thing! FUCK. THEM. ALL.

          • I found a fellow chump. He never cheated on his wife but she had many affairs while he was away in the military. She even got pregnant by another man after he had a vasectomy. Nice, huh? He found the evidence where she had an abortion but still stayed with her for the children. She ended up running off anyway leaving him to co-parent with an insane person. His children suffered terribly. We’re so relieved and happy to have found each other. Sometimes we fantasize about the ‘what if’s’…What if we had met in college and had children and lived happily ever after….

          • Kar Marie: cheaters surround themselves with other cheaters and with cheater apologists. Can’t hang out with people who challenge them on their shittiness, can they?

    • November 16th will be one year since X-hole walked out…. I have ZERO desire to date or anything else….not surevwhen, if ever, I will. I am absolutely fine with just me and my son.

      I am with you kar marie, I am no longer a trusting soul and frankly I’m too old and tired of this shit too.

      • I enjoy having someone to do things with. I went without for 41 years total. I will not die never having experienced an authentic relationship. I’m going slow and I feel confident there are many men out there who want the same.

        • I enjoy having someone to do things with also but I’m spending time with friends and family, just not ready to think about any romantic connection. There is no way I’m ready to place my trust in anyone yet…and I will take it super slow when and if I try, never jump in fast again.

      • My “year” is November 18th NC Stevie. How do you feel after a year? I think in my mind this is the point at which I should be moving forward at least a little bit. I think I am, but it’s still really hard. I just told my kids the other day…I’m making strides, but I think this will go on for years for me.

        • Me too, haven’t cried much for months but I’m struggling this weekend. Not over losing “him” so much as the pain of everything he has taken from me and our son. For what? The opportunity to fuck a stranger because he has a defective core.

          • Me too. This will affect me for years to come and I will never trust again. I like almost all here loved as swipe with every fiber of my being. I will love the man I married always this 2.0 dude not so much. Sometimes we love someone but its not healthy to be around them cause they suck. Asswipe still has a huge emotional connection to me and won’t ever quite let go but I keep him at bay, one cause it healthier for me and two its killing him. Ha. Can’t and won’t ever hate him just the fucked up shit he did too much real estate hate takes up in ones brain. Not worth it. I’ve made peace with myself, accepted the situation and maybe if I’m lucky one day experience meh. The whore is rampingup the charm to get him back now we are divorcing. She’s a egotistical loon who thinks he won’t cheat on her. He already has. She knows he still loves me and is trying to erase me from his memory hasn’t worked yet. If he goes back he’s a fool but that’s how he rolls our connection is so deep he will never be truly happy. Good!.

            • Bwahaha….X-hole too, dumbass schmoopie probably believes his “I only cheated because I was soooo unhappy and because you are soooo special…. I just couldn’t help myself. I wanted you soooo bad.” He’s already banged one of her team mates and I’m pretty sure he is banging another married whore from the gym now. Gives me the tingles.

              Hope he dumps her swiftly on her cheating ass as cruelly as he is capable of. She deserves it.

  • Savage’s analysis is fine IF the parties agree to it! But what about us poor, unenlightened folks, who believe that monogamy matters, who have lived their lives in an honorable, honest fashion and expect the same from our spouses? Do our feelings not count? Is it acceptable to disregard our needs and expectations? It all boils down to integrity. Either you are a person of integrity or you are not. All the mumbo jumbo psychobabble cannot change the simple fact that, once trust is destroyed, it can never be rebuilt.

    I have recently been through a very tough time, questioning the truth of so much I have held dear. As the ground around me has begun to crumble, the one thing I hold on to is fact that I have tried my very best to live a life of integrity. Because really, without that, what is the point of living? I choose to believe that we are more than a mass of desires, living solely for our own gratification. There has to be more, there just does…

  • My Cheater thought that he was being all liberal by stepping out on me after 30 years together, 25 of those years being married. Problem was that 1) he didn’t tell me that he was going to get all monogamish on me, 2. He did nothing to protect his health, or mine, 3. Poor sausage ‘fell in love’ with the new Schmoopie…. I have lots of Gay friends that have this whole Monogomish thing going on, and more often than not, the primary relationship breaks down. Just tempting fate as far I’m concerned.

  • Monogamy means “one”! That’s what I signed up for in marriage and that’s what I expected! I did not expect my husband to search high and very low for a sub-human cumdumpster on Fakebook! Monogamy is that you are all In with your partner and invested! Period!

  • MY ex felt that because no one suspected him, he really WAS a good husband and father (despite having decades long affairs and group sex with co-workers, bringing them to our home, etc etc). The few people that told him post D-Day that they thought they DID notice something with “those women” were quickly contradicted by him, “no you did not.” You see, he feels it was the perfect con, so perfect that no one could have known, and if no one knew it’s like it really did not happen. Guess he believes that if the tree falls in the forest and there was no one there to hear it, it really did NOT make a sound… Oh gahhhhh blechhhhhhh….too much unraveling of the skein……

    Let’s just say I ROCK at monogamy and I am quite comfortable with that. And so is my current ex-chump husband! ?

  • All I have ever gotten from X-hole is DENIAL and CRICKETS, no excuses or explanation.

    The only half-assed admission I ever got was one statement, via text, 6 months after D-Day…. “you’re right, I should have ended our relationship before starting this one.” Gee….thanks for the enlightenment fuckhead!

    I don’t even believe he had full blown affairs, just cheated and fucked around because he COULD and wanted to. Him banging random because he couldn’t keep his dick in his pants doesn’t piss me off as much as all of the other horrible shit he has done.

    The fact that he set me up!! He LIED his ass off and pretended to be a caring human being from day one is what really pisses me off. He deliberately and knowingly fucked me over and lied to my face, did shit on purpose and BLAMED me for it, watched me twist myself into a pretzel trying to fix all of the bullshit he projected onto me knowing I would fail, watched me fight to save something he KNEW he was deliberately sabotaging……just to walk out at the exact moment we needed him more than ever. Seriously? Fuck you!

    • …and I too was EXCELLENT at monogamy. Cheating on him, emotionally or physically, never entered my mind. Not even after I knew what he had done, my behavior isn’t based on his. He knew I would NEVER cheat, must be a nice feeling….to be that secure in the love and faithfulness of your partner. I sure as fuck wouldn’t know what that feels like…..

      • “…and I too was EXCELLENT at monogamy.”

        Well, NCStevie, according to Dan Savage’s “logic”, you MUST be “wired” WRONG!

        …just like the rest of us monogamous chumps!

        • Screw him and the horse he rode in on too lol!!

          And for the record, X-holes brother is gay and “BAD” at monogamy too. His last partner was blindsided worse than me…. when he got dumped he posted on Facebook “I just lost my home, my dogs and my lover all in the same moment, please pray for me.” The disordered can be gay as well.

          I might agree that THEY just aren’t wired for monogamy….because they are just wired WRONG PERIOD!! Vile people.

  • Not “wired” for monogamy? Why do they figure this out AFTER they’ve gotten married, promised to “forsake all others”, had children, …and not BEFORE?!

    And, are they also “wired” for lying?
    Sneaking around?
    Re-writing marital history?
    Keeping secrets?
    Not using protection while fucking someone other than their spouse?

    Why do so many of them become positively indignant if their spouse asks them, “How would YOU like it if *I* cheated on YOU?!”

    Ironically, MOST cheaters would NOT want their partner to CHEAT ON *THEM*!

    But hey! If we’re *ALL* not “wired” for monogamy, then the cheater should be o.k. with their partner having sex with someone else.

    Right?

      • Yes chump lady why do they get enraged if you turn it around on them. If I gave your truck to my boyfriend to drive, if I gave credit cards on our joint accounts to my boyfriend and his family like you did how would you feel? I thought his head was gonna explode! Why is that?

    • Gypsy

      X actually said, “I couldn’t imagine what I would do if you did this to me”. Bingo. This propelled me to fight every day to ELIMINATE his toxic control over my emotions.

    • Well if X-hole didn’t figure it out until after he got married…..can’t use that excuse more than once. Not his first shit show, I know I’ve shared that he did this to his ex-wife as well. They are just convinced that it will be “different” with the “right” person…..because you KNOW it can’t be anything that is wrong with “them”. They are not the problem don’t ‘cha know…..

  • For me, this was the mindfuck that started it all, a year and a half ago. This was the most painful of all the shit I’ve had to deal with. I tried to get on board with this pretzel logic and just about lost my damn mind. Like Tempest said, cognitive dissonance, and then some. It looks so good on paper – everybody gets their needs met! save the marriage! all good clean fun! …. I guess my emotions don’t work like paper.

    4 months from him moving out and I hardly cry at all anymore, but this brings it all back in a flood. Serious detour on the road to meh.

    • Took me almost a full year but now….I feel absolutely nothing when I see him or run across pics of him. I am grateful that he killed whatever love I had for him, thank God.

  • No one can make a logical argument that it is “enlightened” to withhold important information from someone else, and “unenlightened” for that other person to not be royally pissed off when the lie is discovered.

    The fact that some of these moral crimes happen behind closed doors within the realm of someone’s private life does not somehow make a breach of trust beyond criticism.

    I honestly don’t get what is so difficult about that for some of these people to grasp. I mean, it becomes blatantly obvious to anyone with sufficient quantities of gray matter inside their skull to see that this stuff is pretzel logic designed to ease the speaker’s/writer’s cognitive dissonance at rectifying their internal narrative of not being an asshole with the fact that they did things that only assholes do.

    Study after study has shown that the most effective way to deal with that kind of dissonance is for the perpetrator to seek genuine forgiveness from those that were harmed; otherwise, the perpetrator continues to lie to themselves, which might work for some time, but generally causes additional problems as the dissonance is acted out subconsciously (I recommend reading the excellent book Rewire, which goes into this in some detail).

    To me, enlightenment comes from (among other things) accepting scientific truths, and knowing yourself. This drivel from Savage is precisely the opposite of enlightenment when taken in that view.

    • Yes, exactly: “pretzel logic designed to ease the speaker’s/writer’s cognitive dissonance at rectifying their internal narrative of not being an asshole”. My Ex even said that after D-Day, that he is a good person who just “made a procedural error.”

      You also said, “The fact that some of these moral crimes happen behind closed doors within the realm of someone’s private life does not somehow make a breach of trust beyond criticism.” There is a thread going on in the CL forum about a recent NYTimes “Ethicist” article about a friend who is having an affair and the ethical dilemma of whether the writer should tell the betrayed spouse and I was positively stunned at how many commenters overwhelmingly said variations of “what goes on behind closed doors is no one else’s business,” and “the existence of the affair is no one’s business except the two married people,” without seeing the OBVIOUS hole in their logic that the betrayed spouse had no IDEA he was being cheated on — so how on earth was it “between” him and his cheating wife????? Everyone saying “Don’t Judge!”, well why the hell NOT.

          • I should mention, I actually said on a similar sort of article that you ALWAYS tell – and I had some cheater apologist fuckwad try to call me a vengeful harpy and a scumbag for it.
            Needless to say, I ripped him a new one.

            • Lania–I would consider it a badge of honor to be called a vengeful harpy! They carry evildoers (especially those who have killed their family) to the netherworld goddesses who avenge crimes against the natural order. Sign me up!

              • Hahahaha yeah, I realised that in hindsight to be frank, and thought it was deliciously ironic.
                At the time, I saw red, and ripped him a new one – of which he really didn’t have much of a response besides parroting his same lines over and over again. Me saying the line “I can bet with near certainty you’re a cheater” got moderated, though – which pissed me off.

              • Oh, my, MICHAEL, do we have another troll here to mock people trying to heal from infidelity? (not to be confused with the actual chumps Michael and MichaelB). Should we infer your all-caps name indicates your level of self-love?

              • Oh MICHAEL – lets play then – your word salad inane bullshit can frankly fuck off.
                I put my money where my mouth is, where I have a consistent opinion, both online and in real life. That opinion is: If you are a cheater – you are a scumbag and you can fuck off out of my life. And if you are being a deceitful piece of shit, I will call you out on it – status, ‘prestige’, money and other aspects aside. I don’t give a fuck if you’re a billionnaire – or some guy who can’t even rub two dollars together – if you cheat – you’re scum.
                Who are you? No doubt – some brainless twit, who can’t even string a proper sentence together.

  • I googled Dan Savage and came up with this:

    Dan Savage Says Cheating Happens. And That’s OK.

    No Dan, buddy, it’s not OK. It’s betraying the person supposedly closest to you in the world in the most intimate way possible. That’s what cheating is.

    Again I say, if you like to fuck multiple people because pummeling one is just so limiting, by all means go crazy. But don’t marry another person with the agreement that you will remain monogamous to them. You either stay single, or you marry someone who thinks like you do. Marry someone who doesn’t mind getting down with your buddy on your hockey team while you watch.

    I’m very accepting of other people and their sexual orientations and behaviors. I’m not judgy. But don’t tell me that when someone cheats on me I need to just suck it up because it’s not a big deal. It’s a big deal to me because hey, I’m not a cheater.

    Dan doesn’t realize that cheating isn’t just about fucking someone you’re not married to. Cheating lies about finances. Cheating plots to undermine you emotionally and fuck with your head so you won’t pay attention to the valuables suddenly missing in the house. Cheating gives you STD’s. Cheating is so much more than just the act itself, and that’s what these idiots don’t understand.

  • Here’s what I’ve never understood: If you think monogamy is unnatural and damaging, why the EFF do you ever get married in the first place? Marriage “perks” are the rewards the rest of us get for being honorable, loving, devoted partners. Health insurance companies, for instance, assume that in a marriage, you have someone to look out for you and take care of you and that you’re not just going it alone. Marriage is not just a legal contract. It’s a sacred bond. A promise. A vow before whatever God you believe in. Marriage is LITERALLY giving yourself to another for life. It is monogamy, by definition.

    You don’t believe in monogamy? Don’t get married! You want to screw everything that moves because your “sexually-sophisticated”? Don’t get married! You don’t want to shackle yourself? For the love of God, DON’T GET MARRIED!

    My ex-husband’s exact words to me when I asked why he screwed the five other women he admitted to screwing in our marriage were, “Sex is my drug. You were giving it to me, but I wanted more.” If that’s who you are, more power to you, but DON’T GET MARRIED! Don’t let the person you claim to love believe that they have a life partner when they have the exact opposite. Leave them free to find someone who shares the same values and morals.

    I don’t have a problem with “sexually-sophisticated” people. I think the terminology is crap, but to each his own. I have a problem with liars, manipulators, gas-lighters, and victimizers. Oh, and hypocrites…such as those who take wedding vows, then claim eight seconds later that they don’t believe in monogamy. Um…then what was all that “love, honor, and I do” stuff?

    Oh, and FYI: It’s been proven time and time again that married couples (the ones who truly honor their vows, that is) and people in loving, monogamous relationships live longer, healthier, and more satisfying lives.

    Whew! I feel better.

    • I don’t even have a problem with cheaters getting married and getting all of the ‘perks’…

      …AS LONG AS THERE IS AN OPEN AGREEMENT THAT NEITHER SPOUSE IS GOING TO BE FAITHFUL, and that this agreement is understood and accepted by BOTH parties BEFORE marriage.

      Have at it, cheaters!

    • If you make the decision to get married and say your vows it’s clear you’re making a life long promise to be faithful to your significant other “till death do us part” “forsake all others.”
      I don’t remember reading “or meet someone who I find more attractive, younger..”

      If you find you’re unhappy there are many other alternatives than cheating. If you are annoyed with your partner you work it out not fuck someone else in retaliation.
      Cheaters need to put half as much effort into their marriages as they do in cheating.
      Destroying a lifetime of memories, dreams, future and security, turning your children’s world upside down and breaking your spouses heart, is selfish and cruel.
      Cheaters make conscious decisions to cheat, they’re not overcome by someone unknown entity or abducted and woke up probing their secretary and lo and behold we have so much in common.

      Too many excuses are made for Cheaters, the seriousness and the devastating aftermath is often overlooked.
      It’s time Cheaters be held accountable.

    • Its because disordered doucheblossoms want all those ‘perks’ as well, and feel entitled to it. They also have a spouse-appliance to be at their beck and call while they fuck strangers with diseases.
      Its really all it boils down to – entitlement.

  • So many aspects of douche’s affairs are abusive and heinous but the lying, the 10,000 acts of deception, the lack of any care or respect, let alone love, for me is what strikes me by this morning’s post. When my H of 22 years decided to fuck strange pussy #1 in spring 2014 he continued acting like things were the same between us: we were intimate several times a week (he gave no thought to my health!), he told me what he was doing every day at work (totally lying about his affair activities). Same with affair #2, which began a year ago this week. The lying, blame shifting, and mind fuckery intensified when our 4 young kids discovered affair #2 on 12/26- Merry fucking Christmas sweethearts…. Daddy’s Victoria secret things and the love letter from slut #2 with the little red hearts over the ‘i’s” were a surprise gift to you all?. (More lies- douche said it was “only” a texting flirtation). If cheaters were people with integrity, they would say what they are planning to do and give their partner the rights we deserve to have access to the same relevant facts and all the facts. I definitely would not have agreed to an open marriage. I would not have continued having sex with douche. I would not have continued caring for all of his daily needs (laundry, meals, paying his bills, etc.). I would not have bought him gifts, sent him loving notes and cards, made future plans with him. His deceit deprived me of my right to choose my own life course. It was a total violation of my personhood! As an American woman, a lawyer to boot, I hold very dear my rights and freedom to choose my own destiny and pursue my happiness. What he did is also a feline assault and he could be prosecuted for it! Douche deprived me of my inalienable rights in every regard. So.Much.Better.Off without him!

    • LOL – “Feline assault.”
      I think it should be prosecutable – it is “Theft By Swindle,” is it not? Making someone believe one thing and it actually being another while robbing them at the same time…???

      • Here in NC, it is prosecutable. It’s a little law called “Alienation of Affection”. It’s difficult to get a conviction, though, I’ve heard. I didn’t even try. Heck, I would have been suing my own first cousin! (Yeah. Crazy!) I just wanted to get on with my life. And get on with it, I did.

    • “Feline assault”–isn’t that what male cheaters happened to them, against their will? (substitute appropriate synonyms for “feline”)

  • If you are a single adult, and you meet another single adult at an event where you both know you are likely to be free to partner up with several others and have “fun” — then you have started off on the honest track, and might have a shot at an “open” relationship.

    If someone approached me and said “Hey, I’m very attracted to you and would like to spend some adult quality time with you — but you should know I don’t believe in monogamy and I will never practice it,” I would appreciate their honesty, but I would pass. Because I am not ok with it. It is NOT what I want. If you don’t know from the beginning, and you don’t make the choice before you are vested in the relationship, the partner who suggests that lifestyle is using undue influence on the other partner. It is not a choice, it is an emotional blackmail at that time.

    I have read interviews with “ex” swingers who decided to get off the merry go round, or were dumped anyway, who admitted that they agreed to swing because they did not want to lose their partner. That is not free will.

    Thinking that you can have sex in this day and age with no consequences is just immature day-dreaming. STD’s, and unplanned pregnancies are real life consequences of having sex. No one else should have the ability to determine whether or not YOU should take that risk. Get real.

    Until someone you love very much looks into your eyes and lies, lies, lies — you do not know what that experience is like. Don’t tell me I am being unreasonable, or archaic in my thinking. I am totally ok with YOU choosing a different lifestyle, but I will never be ok with ANYONE else making that choice for me.

    • “Until someone you love very much looks into your eyes and lies, lies, lies — you do not know what that experience is like,”

      Wow, Chump Nation is on fire today.

    • “I am totally ok with YOU choosing a different lifestyle, but I will never be ok with ANYONE else making that choice for me.”

      And that’s the bottom line, isn’t it? When you lie to and deceive me, cause me to believe things are one way when they are another – you deliberately take away my agency and my ability to make informed decisions. It’s a con – nothing more, nothing less. Once you do that, the relationship dynamic is completely altered – we are no longer two people in a relationship; we transform to a con and a mark.

      Dan Savage can rationalize monogomish all day long and every Sunday, but it’s all bullshit. If he needs something to justify what he’s done and what he’s been willing to tolerate, fine. But don’t extrapolate it to the rest of us as something desirable or acceptable.

    • STANDING OVATION PORTIA!!! The crowd is roaring approval!!!

      My thoughts EXACTLY! It is very hard to recover from such heinous abuse!!!! And, I don’t want to be with any person that can so blatantly treat another person with such complete disregard.

      Standing, roaring ovation!!!! 🙂

  • This is just another form of blame-shifting with some mind-fuck thrown in for good measure! The chumps are to blame for breaking up perfectly good marriages because they just aren’t cool enough. If chumps had a clue they wood be thankful for the amount of monogamy they get. Some is better than none, right? Let’s not be wasteful here. This is a perfectly good marriage…for the cheater!

    I kind of liked Dan Savage, but I now believe his message is insidious. Savage, along with Perel & Gilbert are preaching to a really creepy choir. I feel terrible that some newly minted chump is getting this bullshit spoonfed to them by some self-righteous cheater and is trying to unhinge their jaw to accept this colossal shit sandwich! I can see myself in the early days trying to pretzel my mind into accepting this crap. I don’t thinks this works for anyone – gay couples included. It hurts. Period.

    • Gilbert is a certifiable Cluster B, IMO. Perel is just stupid, Savage is looking for justification for his own predilections.

    • ‘ I can see myself in the early days trying to pretzel my mind into accepting this crap.’
      Did we all do that, when Dday was happening? I know I did! I said to X, crying while he held me – I guess I’ll just take whatever part of you I can get.
      So embarrassing now, to think about that, but you all know how beaten down a person can get, after they’ve been gaslighted and blameshifted for about 30 years! Thank Goddess I came to my senses. Then, another time, he brought the Ho neighbor to our home, and it was so obvious they had been on a date, and she was shooting dagger looks at me. He pulled me in the bedroom and begged me, pretty please, can she sleep with us tonight? I did still have enough of a small scrap of my self-esteem left to say- Fuck no! I don’t even like her, much less want to sleep with her!
      This kind of behavior, like all of cheating, is a giant middle finger in the air, to the one you supposedly love.
      I believe the core of cheating is that they DISrespect us.

  • Nobody does it better! Chumplady, this post oozes your intelligence, insight and wit. Thank you for being such a strong voice in this arena. For Savage, where is the emotional fury that could be gleaned from the testimonies of victims of adultery? Infidelity takes what connects us in marriage and rips it to shreds, without us even knowing it! Steven Pinker suggests that sex is not a binding force but a divisive one. I take this to mean that it should not be treated casually. Conventional wisdom denies this.

  • We use the term “cheating” when one partners secretly screws someone else. If we were to break this down to a very simpler subject….if we were playing a game…say Monopoly….would these folks mind if we “cheated just a little” to win the game? I think not. It is all just another mind fuck.

    • Yeah, and where’s the defense of Bernie Madoff? People willingly sought him out, so what are they whining about? Bernie was just a guy trying to get ahead, right? SMH

  • Ugh. I definitely believe ‘cheaters are not wired for monogamy’ – but why is that ok? Oh, I guess I missed the narcissist memo: marriage makes people “look ok” to the face of the world. For cheaters, it is the vehicle that states an outward appearance and covers up the truth.

    Why is deceit and betrayal ok? Why is fraud and treachery ok? Yeah, there is the actual cheating, but it’s everything else that surrounds it – breaking vows, commitment, not giving your spouse the right to choose a better life, tearing spouse apart to justify affairs, living the secret life and getting off on that. Tell me how that is good for any marriage, family, kids and community.

    I think this Savage dude is trying to justify and profit from the total throw-away modern world we live in, today. And, it particularly irks me that these relationship gurus use history surreptitiously like marriage for country, land, chattel, mergers, religion where affairs were the only option because back then it was off with your head as justification for modern affairs! So easy with our stop & shop divorce mediation for self-appointed relationship gurus to twist the choices that two consenting and equal adults make when entering and exiting marriage in the modern world. So how about just choose to never get married if you are a cheater. Why water down the sanctity of marriage? They all suck and these gurus seek to twist this complex psychology for their own guru profit in a cult-like way. –Really burns me up… Yeah, these people are totally wired for one thing only – self promotion & profit.

    I’m kinda grateful that I am older and more cynical about this crap in the first place. I feel for the tortured and naive souls who are buying into this crap and turning their guts and self esteem inside out on the reconciliation sites, and in MC. -Success rate? How do you reconcile betrayal, long term, serial, double life, prostitution, porn addiction, and worse?

    CL & CN is one place, with an all important counterpoint, that has the guts to tell the unvarnished truth like it is, to just tell it like it is.

  • American advice columnist Dan Savage has been one of the loudest new voices, decrying EMPATHY as dangerous and damaging. Many people just aren’t wired for it, Savage says, and our stubbornly romantic ideal of marriage means partners won’t talk about it, publicly or privately. In a lecture in Sydney last year, Savage explained his idea of “ABUSE-ish” — a committed relationship in which either or both parties might have an occasional EPISODE OF ABUSE, and the other either approves or forgives.

    All the positives of a happy marriage, he says — stability, security, children, property, a shared history — shouldn’t be thrown out because of one or two episodes of ABUSE. Savage, a gay man, invented the term to describe his own marriage, claiming infrequent ABUSE, discussed openly and honestly, had strengthened the relationship, perhaps even saved it.

    I’m sure my cheater would agree, particularly since the ABUSE was only episodic. You don’t have to actually hit a child or threaten violence — or cheat — very many times to ensure a life of fear. He did feel like ABUSE strengthened our marriage and his relationship with our kids. We stayed with him because we were terrified to leave.

  • ‘All the positives of a happy marriage, he says — stability, security, children, property, a shared history — shouldn’t be thrown out because of one or two episodes of cheating,’ seems to be directed at Chumps. Shouldn’t Savage’s statement be directed at Cheaters? When my cheating husband (now STBX) told me that he tried to impregnate his affair partner and spent the money he promised to invest in the kids’ college fund on prostitutes, I think that HE threw away all the positives of a happy marriage–stability, security, children, property–and any good memories of my marriage. (Would Savage say, ‘It’s just a baby [born out of adultery]–no big deal’?)

    I don’t understand how anyone can rationally argue that ‘Cheating strengthened my marriage.’ I can’t imagine someone saying, ‘My business partner signed an agreement that he would not spend money, time, etc. on my competitor but violated the agreement. My business is so much better for that violation now.’ Violation of contract has led to some lawsuits resulting in very large (multi-million dollar) awards for damages. I also can’t imagine someone saying, ‘My business partner’s theft of our business’ money strengthened our business.’ Embezzlement and theft have led to some very long prison sentences. What makes those unethical actions ok if done to one’s own family as opposed to colleagues, clients, and strangers?

    • RSW – I was thinking almost exactly the same thing regarding the “All the positives of a happy marriage, he says — stability, security, children, property, a shared history — shouldn’t be thrown out because of one or two episodes of cheating” quote.

      That’s simply a version of the tired “it’s not what I did, it’s your reaction to it” justification.

      If they wanted the positives of a happy marriage, they should have thought about that **BEFORE CHEATING AND LYING**.

  • “The other either approves or forgives”
    We know cheaters aren’t much of conversationalists when it comes to cheating. They instinctively know the answer and I guess that’s where the forgiveness comes in. Don’t we just love the lopsided justification.

    A ho worker was telling me about her boyfriend that was picking her up yesterday after work. She gleefully said his wife knew about her. I stopped the conversation short and said, “so you the other woman”. Prior to that she was talking about her financial difficulties and blame shifting her woes on her X who she divirced in 2009. This guy has money and is “seperated”.

    I think I might have invented a new word for the disordered.
    JustiFUCKation or in Savage Speak
    JustiFUCKish. And here in chumpville the options include no contact and divorce. Fuck forgiveness.

  • Yes, amen and pass the biscuits! Love that Tempest.

    Gahh…it is all just click bait.

    For sex to be really good you need to be able to have good communication — as CL points out — yes honest conversation — with your partner regardless of your stage of partnership. THIS is the most challenging thing to do.

    Perhaps this is old-fashioned, but you and your partner need to be on the same page. Isn’t sex meant to be fun? If you want have random encounters, SAY that. If you want an open relationship, SAY that. If you’ve got some out-there fantasies, SAY that. If you don’t want to marry or commit to the person you sleep with, SAY that. Eventually you will find the person or persons who want the exact same thing.

    I regret that I did not check-in monthly with my now EX to confirm the arrangement of our partnership. I believed that because we were married, we were monogamous. Duh on me. I later learned that he did however have some very interesting conversations with other people, including the other women, explaining that we had a open relationship or our marriage was dead.

    In all honesty, it was not the sexual betrayal that killed our relationship. Yes, that hurt. It was the lying, gaslighting, and blameshifting that made it impossible to continue the relationship.

      • We are supposed to be monogamous not them. Told asswipe he needs an open relationship. Nope he said if I have 10 girlfriends they all better be loyal to me or I dump them. He said if I had cheated he would have killed me in anger. Asshole.

      • In our marriage I was the ous and he was the ish. I guess that explains why I was the ONE in the relationship. “Ish” has a much deeper meaning. If you are Ish” it includes the broad spectrum of cheaters and all the justifiuckation.

        This really speaks to our boundaries and what we are willing to tollerate. This is HOW the disordered think. From the one nighters, porn seekers, craigs fuckers, AM dimwits, double lifers, and youth recapturers, they are selfish entitled assholes.

        The deck was always stacked. Yes it was Tempest.

        It’s always about power and control. We were never weak or pathetic. We trusted, believed, sacrificed, waited,went without, and were traumatized. Our needs were not met, we wernt respected, our finances were destroyed and our spirits were broken.

        That mask encompasses much more than screwing around twice, it’s a way of life for narcs and sociopaths. They band together as we do. Fuck all the pretenders who hide in a marriage and distort the truth.

        • Amen Donna! Screw the lot of em!!!

          When satan decided he wanted to come home he said you are a beautiful woman Jeep. I can’t stand the thought of you with another man. I would like to come home if you can let this go.

          WHA????!!!!! LET. THIS. GO.

          …disordered nut jobs

          …later found out kroger’s customer service ho had dumped his cheating ass…pretty bad when even a ho won’t have ya!!!!

          • But, but…he gave you a compliment, you were supposed to swoon, and give in to whatever he wanted!
            The AP’s don’t like the commitment part, that stuff is too hard. Mine got dumped, too. Pathetic.

            • Thank you FreeWoman :D. I agree the APs can’t do the commitment part. I imagine when the divorce dust settles they get a real good look at their barren sick surroundings…and the NOT SPARKLING narcissist they are tethered to…ugh…she and all the rest of them can have him. He. Is. NOT. My. Problem. ANYMORE!!!!! (Perfectly executed leap!!!! :D)

              I don’t imagine satan will ever find another woman that will do all the things I do AND PUT UP WITH HIM and love him despite his disordered behaviors…CHEATING, LYING, DOUCHE!!!!

              I helped him build a really awesome life on our meager wages by being thrifty – I gardened and canned hundreds of quarts of food every year, I sew, I am one hell of a cook, cut corners where they could be cut, I am not demanding and very easy to please. Yes, I am almost certain he isn’t going to find a partner like me that is willing to put up with him.

              I am still healing but with complete and total NC it is becoming easier and easier and better and better days are more frequent now. I no longer sit crying or staring into space for hours. I can actually breathe and my heart doesn’t pound constantly now. I don’t imagine soulless satan could have lived through even an hour of the absolute physical, emotional and mental anguish I endured for over 4 years…cowardly little evil boy man isn’t strong enough. I see that now. He isn’t man enough to be a man…certainly not the man I thought he was…hero NOT! 😀

              A lot of us chumps seem to be going through the hell again these last few days…don’t know why…but one of my new neighbors (I sold my home of 30 years and moved 37 minutes from that living hell) is a divorced man a year or so older than me and he sometimes gives me insight into ‘those kinds of guys’ and he could see that I am struggling again…and he told me, “Jeep, you can get lots of dates like satan if you want. It’s easy, just go into any bar – or even a grocery store! – and start smellin asses and sayin YOU WANNA?, I’m sure you will have carloads of men following you home!’ LOL!!! I never even thought about it like that!!!! LOL!!! It put a whole new spin on satan and his ho dates!!!! LOL!!! Good luck with that satan!!!!

              We are soooo much BETTER OFF without all the anxiety and worry these cheaters provide for us!

              YAY FOR US!!!!

              • Wow, you sound a lot like me! Also enhanced X’s life through my mighty efforts, on almost no money. I cooked from scratch, had a sewing business to bring in money, helped him get better jobs with signing bonus, etc. For 35 years. Then he threw it all away, and tried to wreck everything, for phoney sexual games with the neighbor. I say tried, because the deep, important things, he could never touch- my values, our sons character, my hard earned education- all intact. His evil dark world will not taint my beautiful loving world, that me and my 3 sons live in. He can’t even get to the gate of that world, and he certainly can’t come in!

          • Jeep

            They shop in the basement store and get sloppy hand me downs. X was drunk and his ho was chatting up another man, leaning into him. X fir the first time in a year and a half looked at me smiling as if I would smile back. I said fuck you. Disordered they remain. I’ve moved on with a better life.

            • FreeWoman and donna I am sooo glad we are all moving on to our better cheater free lives!!!! 🙂

              FreeWoman your loving heart shines out in your words! Your x won’t be able to replace you!!! Or ever GET YOU TO COME BACK!!!!

              satan can’t come here ever either 🙂 He tried…I ignored him and drove off in my Jeep 🙂 Boppin to the tunes on my radio and SMILIN!!!! I didn’t even look at him. Just like he didn’t exist…drives these narcs insane. Imagine the disordered thinking! That he could JUST COME HERE! Like I would be HAPPY TO SEE HIM!!!

              Donna sounds like your x got what was COMIN TO HIM!!! LOL!!!! Good for him. Let him see how that feels!

              Good for you dismissing his ass!

              Obviously none of these soulless creatures will ever learn from their mistakes…serial abusers never do…they just get worse over time.

              • Thank you Jeep! If they get worse, if they get better- they can figure that out themselves. Taking care of him almost put me in an early grave, I am staying away from him, he’s toxic to me!

  • If you aren’t “wired” for monogamy, stay the Fuck single. It really is that simple. Step away from the cake and live your life as a Single Person. Not as a lying, cheating pos.

  • People who have to chase strange ass through out life really have a problem with maturity, as far as I’m concerned. I went thru a brief “casual sex, free love” whatever you want to call it phase in my early 20s college years. Let me tell you, it’s really very unfulfilling and something I would never repeat. I can’t say I would change it but only for the reason I now KNOW first hand what a loser proposition it is. Strange dicks just aren’t that thrilling. And I don’t want to be a late fifties sleep around whore. It just seems pathetic.

  • Thank-you once again CL for explaining so succinctly, passionately and precisely for what we chumps stand. Your and your commenter’s voices are some of the only voices out there calling for honesty, accountability and most importantly CHARACTER in how we treat each other. I too like Dan Savage for so many reasons, but that viewpoint is painful to people like me who believe in monogamy for ourselves and expect in our partners, and feel the loyalty, respect, and honesty make it easy and workable even in this narcissistic, consumer and addiction-based world in which we seem to be living (and maybe slowly killing). I don’t judge people who choose and live honestly in other types of relationships or lifestyles, but honesty and respect are the watchwords always. You don’t to get to have an “open relationship” where only one partner lives openly and one is in the dark. . .

  • I realized that the main difference between me and my ex’s girlfriend/whore is that she, and all affair partners, are WILLING to be a side fuck. They know all about you, and yet they are willing to hook up with the loser. Ex knows I would never agree to seeing him if he were married, had a girlfriend, was “separated ” , etc. but the loser affair partners will. Sucks to be them. They are actually flattered by a low rent pseudo relationship. That really is the definition of low self esteem. I even remember that when I was a college “slut” I was disgusted by cheaters. Still am.

  • Savage is fine if he would just stick to the open honest up front part, but then he goes too far saying, well if you’ve tried talking, and everything else is great, and the marriage is too important, then just go ahead and fuck around on the sly, just keep it quiet. Why go there? Why not stick to his guns on the open honest part? Why condone/encourage the deception with those qualifiers? It’s such a weakass capitulation. It really does feel like pandering to a segment of his audience that he thinks he would lose if he stood up for that degree of honesty. Or maybe he’s an entitled ass. idk
    Also it’s just not realistic to think that people who are otherwise decent enough can fuck around on the side without emotional entanglement, and that’s where everything just goes to hell in a handbasket – ask me how I know….

  • “the other either approves or forgives” can only actually work if “the other” KNOWS ABOUT IT. But when they keep their affairs secret from you for YEARS, you are robbed of the chance to decide whether you want to approve or forgive. And you are robbed of the chance to live an authentic life with someone other than a totally selfish liar. I will never, ever understand how anyone can think this is a good thing.

    • The only ones defending this are the disordered who disregard everyone to satisfy their own selfish needs.

      Children are abandoned.
      Families are destroyed.
      Chumps are discarded.

      What these morons are promoting is narcissistic abuse. It’s all ok because I decided, it’s that simple for a sociopath. And let’s build in a disclaimer, “you can accept it and FORGIVE”, once I’ve cheated once or twice. Why not blame it on a talking pussy, since your so delusional. This makes no sense to anyone. Keepingitsane, your full of shit, your not a chump. Your all the same, you don’t want to take responsibility for your actions and be accountable. If only we could just listen and hear the chanting of the savages. Fuck off.

    • And I quote: SAVAGE: I want to be lied to. He wants me to lie to him. There are things you don’t say because they can’t be unsaid and would be shattering, so you protect each other. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do in the wake of an affair is lie.

      Um, riiiiggght.

      Maybe, just maybe, don’t fuck around in the first place? That’s the most loving thing you could do, Dan.

  • This discussion just takes me back to a CL quote from a couple of days ago: “Do it all in service to Almighty SEX. Make that your paramount value. And good luck later when you need someone to change your colostomy bag. When you’ve traded all your gold for a magic boner — who’s going to love you when you’re old and vulnerable? When your equipment fails? When you’ve invested all those years in the magic boner and not in meaningful relationships — then what?…That Thai hooker is going to step over you and your wrinkled junk and steal your wallet. Schmoopie is going to be sick of your shit and find a new mark. Your kids will find you a colossal embarrassment. All because you sold your soul to the Magic Boner.” Thats the part Dan Savage doesn’t seem to address…

  • Even better, rather than judging Dan Savage from a clearly inflammatory and biased article (c’mon, CL, you’re better than that!) hear his words in full context for yourself:

    http://www.wheelercentre.com/broadcasts/the-pop-up-festival-of-dangerous-ideas-dan-savage-savage-advice

    This talk had a huge impact on how I think about monogamy, and again, I’m a former chump who has never cheated, and, God willing, won’t ever. At least without permission. 😉

    WARNING: Don’t listen to his speech if you’re black-and-white on the issue of cheating. It will just be a huge trigger. But if you’ve healed and/or are now open to more nuanced thoughts on the subject, it doesn’t get any better than this.

    • “Clearly inflammatory and biased article”????? WHAAAT? It is quotes by Savage, from a journalist who is obviously in love with Savage.

      I’m not sure you belong here, KeepingItSane; this is two days in a row it seems to me you want to add insult to injury to people who have suffered greatly because of actions CLEARLY justified by Savage.

      Try Reddit.

      • Heretic!! (It’s OK, I knew that was coming). Having watched the entire lecture myself, I thought the article CL quoted didn’t give sufficient context for what he was saying. Just my opinion. I also tried to be very careful about disclaimers re: triggers, not wanting to cause upset for people in the painful stages of DD and divorce. I remember what that’s like.

        I just have a problem with CL criticizing what someone said Dan Savage said, taking a few quotes out of a loooong talk without providing context. I know I shouldn’t have said anything at all – it is black or white here, there is no grey, nor any grace for the fallen. Again, I’m a chump, not a cheater, but I wanted to be a voice of sanity in the cheater witch-burning that goes on here.

        But I understand when you say that’s not welcome here, Tempest. I totally get that. I’ve lurked here for two years now and will stop commenting because I know too well that any different perspective here here is “insulting”. That’s not my intent, and I apologize for any upset.

        • I’m not a cheater witch burner, as you reference, but it is always wrong . No exception. It’s immature, ridiculous, and wrong. This Dan Savage, Ester Perel, et al, put their pants on “one leg at a time” just like the rest of us. Just because they spew out some shit doesn’t mean anyone has to swallow it. I don’t, they can blab till eternity’s end and that won’t change.

        • KeepingItSane–I have listened to /read numerous things that Dan Savage has said about “monogamish” and most of it is not nuanced at all. The most defensible parts suggest that he and his husband have a mutual agreement to fuck around (which is not cheating, according to CL or most of us here).

          I guess I’m wondering (a) what you consider to be a defensible context for infidelity, and (b) whether you have actually seen such a story here. I can tell you a lot about many people’s tales, and probably something about most people’s cheating stories. If we rule out the extreme cases (Tessie–whose cheater murdered their son; RockStarWife and TheClip, who are married to psychopaths; abnormally cruel cheaters who also felt compelled to insult their spouses on the way out–Lina & UnicornNoMore, for example; those who passed on incurable STDs to their partners–Datdamwuf & IHaveHate), what is left?

          Perhaps my own case? Highly successful husband who cared for us financially, came to Back-to-School nights, had a date night with me every Saturday, and yet used the justification that I was too busy doing 90% of the parenting, holding down a full-time job, etc., to fully satisfy him and he had to seek “passion and excitement” (from his Ashley Madison profile) elsewhere? Not only did his extracurriculars harm me during the marriage (long bouts of horrible de-valuation when I now realize he had affair partners), but there is not a week goes by that I don’t have at least one moment where I wonder if death is preferable to having to live with the pain of his horrific betrayals. And I am no wilting violet.

          Where’s the grey? What story (real or fictional) is a case of justifiable infidelity in your eyes? I like a nuanced intellectual argument as much (or perhaps more) than your average joe. But, yes, I do think that deceiving another person for your own orgasmic or emotional pleasure is a black and white issue.

        • What exactly is “grace for the fallen”. Is that word salad for forgiveness? So you’ve been following CN, are a chump, and rather than offer support or EMPATHY, your pointing out, our thinking is inflexible?

          Perhaps you will share your definition of cheating. What are the grey areas we missed? Just once or twice? Why stop there? Tell us how that conversation went. Please, I’m all ears. Give us the script you used with your spouse.

        • Keeping it sane? WTFH? Enough of your cock-a-baby-ing bullshit here. Your moniker should be Keeping it INsane. You characterize yourself as needing to provide all of us chumps, with YOUR “voice of sanity,” when the fact is you are so far from sanity the only one you can hear talking is yourself! Narcissistic much?

          Take your condescending cowchips of gray colored INsanity somewhere else. Maybe if you’re even really a chump, you’re a chump who wants to create some sort of weird validation for staying IN your shitty marriage with your nasty cheater. You ain’t gonna find that here as the entire point of this space is black and white – LEAVE A FUCKING CHEATER….. The moronic mindfucking twistery never ends…..

    • Keeping it Sane,
      Being guilty of murder is black and white. Being guilty of rape is black and white. Being guilty of embezzlement is black and white. I agree with black and white notions. I was never not pregnant. I was never not infected with an incurable STD via magic boner spouse. I was never consulted about being monogamish. Heck that would mean the dishonest, manipulative person I married would have to lose his children, income, home and wife appliance.

      I’m not at meh. I am healing. Your logic is stupid. As are cheater apologists who want to minimize this lack of morality with ridiculous rationalizations about the lack of integrity of cheaters who dupe their spouses.

      If my cheater had informed me of his need to have a wandering magic boner, I would not have endured this ridiculous , selfish betrayal. I would have left this relationship long ago. He knew that… which explains why liars lie and cheaters cheat.

      • For the record, ANC, if you weren’t consulted about being monogamish, it was cheating, and it was wrong. I wasn’t consulted either. I am at meh and have just an ounce (and only an ounce) of grace for my ex-husband, with whom I see, in retrospect, I was profoundly incompatible. Really, I mostly look down on him for not being strong enough to just ask me for a divorce. I was miserable too, but made a conscious decision not to look outside the relationship for solutions. He took the easy way out, and still doesn’t think he did anything wrong. It’s a shit sandwich for sure.

        But I’ve tried to learn from it. Dan Savage has been hugely helpful to me in that journey, as crazy as that sounds. My marriage now is better for it. My issue is with seeing him vilified when he brings a valid perspective to the discussion. I fully understand how folks around here disagree with him.

        I’m sorry for your pain and your loss.

        • And up above, you identify yourself as a chump who has never cheated and “godwilling never will. At least not without permission.” and you wink.

          wink wink nudge nudge

          If we were just sophisticated enough, we would all just wink and titter about that quaint little old notion of monogamy and all the poor saps that fall for it?

          If only we here were all clever like you…

        • “My issue is with seeing him vilified when he brings a valid perspective to the discussion…” I poked the bear on this too. Cheater pants wails about being painted “the Bad Guy” in response to finally telling the kids the WHY of their parent’s split.

          It’s not about villainizing him/her. It’s presenting the FACTS in an age-appropriate way. Again, making commitments where you vow you will keep your promises is what a marriage is all about. My cheater and I agreed to a monogamous marriage. Black and white. Not an open one at any level. What about you? (Not judging, just asking a black and white question.).

          So when he threw his “caveats” unbeknownst to me, he broke his promises. There are always consequences to your individual actions. Did your spouse inform you that he was going to change the scope of your marriage? (Again, just asking a black and white question.)

          When I discovered his deceit and betrayal, he denied me the full truth of his “caveats”. He even was so worried at the time that I was going to kick his ass out immediately. I should have but was reeling from his abuse. He even was worried at that time that his kids would hate him. Did your spouse come clean and tell you about the deceit, or did you discover it? (Another concrete black and white question.). The fact that my spouse is a coward and I discovered it led me to ask him if he would have continued indefinitely in this LTA with another married person. That was just the tip of the iceberg.

          Anyhow back to the Good Guy/Bad Guy. When you do bad things to people on purpose, methodically and consistently , guess what? You are a bad guy! Can a bad person admit to their wrong doings, character failures and commence on a path of becoming a decent person? Sure. I think they can. IMO part of that path includes admitting your failures to those from whom you hurt, betrayed and stole. Otherwise you are a hypocrite who is still living behind the mask of “Good Guy”.

          Because adulterous people are emotionally stunted, I explained it to the cheating spouse using the Boy Scout code of honesty, loyalty, integrity. These kids make this oath every week to live by this code. I have been raising kids for the past 20yrs. If you break your promise, own your consequences. Even the creep I married agrees to this. For him not to live by the same code as the rest of the family while under the same roof is shameful and hypocritical. (Pretty damned black and white.). The fact now he feels he will become the Bad Guy or villain to his kids is all his choosing.

          He chose his path of betrayal and deceit. If he is truly working on becoming a better human, he will own it. No one is perfect. However if you choose decency, you chose to own your own behavior and its resulting consequences. Enough said. No more moaning about how the kids are going to hate him. He KNEW that when he first stepped on his “caveat” path.

          None of this IMO makes for a better marriage. The chump is still left with hold the bag of shit one way or the other. If you can live with this, than that is your choice. I WOULD tell your cheater to STFU about being villianized. That abusive to you. He DID this to his own wife and family. Were you there holding a gun to his head while he was balls deep in random pussy? (My final black and white question to you.)

        • I think folks who choose to stay with the cheater are compelled to find excuses for the cheater’s behavior. “He’s really a good guy who wasn’t getting his needs met…” Savage is helpful to those folks because he convinces them that a shit sandwich is really a gourmet meal. Those of us who left understand that a shit sandwich is a shit sandwich.

    • “I’m not at meh. I am healing.”

      ANC’s words, but true for 95% of the people posting on this site. Want an academic discussion about fucking over your life partner? I’m sure you can find sites for that. This isn’t one of them.

    • “Cheating with permission” is an oxymoron.
      And CL has provided an accurate commentary on the bullshit this moron spews. Its just you who doesn’t like it, and has to justify it somehow, because it seems thats how you came to peace in your situation and heaven forbid, that advice be nullified, because it might make your cause illegitimate!
      Cheating is wrong. Period. No ifs ands or buts. And if you try to argue otherwise – get the fuck out.
      Also, cut out the passive-aggressive “I just won’t post here because challenging the status quo here is ‘insulting'” bullshit. Grow up.

    • Keeping, why blur the lines on the difference between an open honest discussion about an open relationship and the lies that surround infidelity? Why do you want so badly for people here to find one more ounce of grace for cheaters, particularly after grace and forbearance were given by us or extracted from us in most cases for YEARS before we finally broke? This isn’t a forum for polyamorous people who were in open relationships and had lovers tiffs with their polyamorous partners. This is a forum for people that were betrayed, deceived, abused, lied to, and stolen from. Why do you so badly need us to share your nuanced perspective on your relationship? What damage does our rage and grief do to your process? If the views on this site don’t help you, why are you here? Why must we learn to appreciate the not-so-subtle blameshifting Dan Savage is promoting on this issue? What good does it do to smugly remind us that we weren’t perfect, weren’t endlessly novel, weren’t enough to satisfy insatiable appetites? (newsflash: we figured that out already, thanks)

      • Indeed. Three affairs I forgave all like a dumb ass. Now I’m done. I don’t wish to be lied to, betrayed, be taken for granted, have my a game have to be on 24/7, have my car given to the whore without my permission, have my credit cards and credit extended to the whore and her family and maxed out by them, have bills with the whores name or bills for their house sent to my address cause as swipe was too cheap to put up a mailbox, have whore packages sent to my address cause whore too fat and lazy to get them. Have things borrowed from my house and never returned because whore needed them. That stopped when I said anything that was borrowed I would replace with most expensive I could find. Have ex show up at my house with a list for things she needed. Whore makes ten thousand a month. Spends every dime on nothing. Have money I made spent on her, gifts and trips and I got nothing. I had to tell my kids and his relatives what was going on because he is way too big of a coward to tell them. Get moved to the middle of nowhere, no friends, no family no nothing for help so he could hide his business in the woods. Be exposed to possible STDs cause ex couldn’t practice safe sex. Be lied to, fucked over, betrayed all for the sake of an affair where the main attraction was she was into s and m. The main attraction. I could go on. Dan savage and anyone who thinks like him that cheating is OK can royally go fuck them selves.

        • Kar Marie

          It’s such a game to them. When I look back at what I had to sacrifice to maintain stability for my children throughout the years of living with a serial cheating disrespectful asshole it makes wonder what the hell was I thinking. X thought he was so good at the game that he would continue to control me even after I divorced him. He went no contact with his entire family and lost their respect. His plan backfired and he used his children and lied throughout the divorce. Now he’s just an entitled sad lonely old guy stuck with a whore with no support system. Hooray for you for shutting him down.

          Throughout the process of being discarded I mourned the loss of how it could never be repaired. We could never be friends or laugh together as a family. The sadistic purposeful pain he WANTED me to suffer as you know was unbearable. We are smarter than they are and work through the pain. Only now can I see the flip side. They lost the one person in their lives who loved them and made them look good. X has no place to hide. His wealth was the joy of his granddaughters laughter, our birthday celebrations, the success of his children finishing college, and all the perks of being held in high esteem with a wife he could brag about being accomplished, an amazing mother and life long friend.
          X is angry now that he’s out of the family loop. He’s not invited to any family events and through his entitlement calls his children and ASKS why he’s not invited. A true narcissist through and through. We never asked for any of this.
          There are no winners. At some point all the entitled cheaters have to face mot only the pain but their disordered selves. We stopped playing the game.

  • He needs some serious therapy. There’s a LOT of shit he personally feels guilty about or needs to forgive someone for. The baggage is clearly heavy. Instead of dealing with it, he gives himself a loud voice and tries to change the world’s perspective to fit and fix his flaws. Problem is, it won’t work. Nonetheless, he likely feels better trying, having a large audience, and getting kudos from the other dysfunctional folk who need the same forgiveness. I kind of feel sorry for him. He’s one messed up dude.

  • Momogamish…it’s all fun and games when your enlightened husband tells you we all have room in our hearts to love more than one person. The fun and games come to an abrupt halt when he decides he was wrong, and only has room enough for one and it ain’t you. Chump of the Century here. We had long, titillating late night discussions about an alternative marriage after 30 years together. My agreed on mission was to find my own ego booster, since he was so fortunate to have one already (lucky, wonderful, charmed man). Yep, I bought it. And I found a willing partner but didn’t stray. I did see how shitty my marriage was, and as soon as I started clamoring for my husband’s loyalty, he told me I was too hard to live with. I look back now and understand he was trying to get ME to have the exit affair. His passive aggressive BS hasn’t changed. He made himself miserable to live with, but wouldn’t leave the house. We continued to keep our small town social life, but he made it clear he to me he was done. He has never come clean to our adult kids or our friends. I finally left my home, my community and my activities because he just wouldn’t GO. 3 years, new job, new city, new friends, a shaky relationship with my kids and it’s the hardest thing I have ever done. I finally filed for divorce. Because God knows he won’t ever take responsibility. He just took my life.

    • Michelle–he took your bankrupt life; you will have a life of integrity and honesty now that he’s gone, with only minimal effort on your part. I promise! This whole process sucks. Hugs your way.

      • What a great reminder. I was so angry today about what I left behind. But then I remembered…at least I left with my self worth.

        • If only chumps could be “enlightened” enough to have a consultation with our spouses about “novelty ” in our relationshios. Let’s just call it fir what it is, “permission to lead a double life and hide within a family for image control”. Cheater cake for life.

  • Well, see, here’s the thing. I’m not vilifying anyone but when you spout ridiculous shit like Ester P, and Dan Savage, and Elizabeth Gilbert, about something as important as fidelity in marriage I’m not interested in your “valid contribution” to other subjects. Period. There are billions of people in the world so I can just ignore what you think altogether. None of these people are nearly as revolutionary as they think they are. Or as revolutionary as they want you to think they are.

    • Well said. I agree someone who I think is that screwed up in their thinking I don’t want to hear anything they have to say. Honest, integrity and truthful is my way. I made my vows and meant them including forsaking all other. Asswipe apparently didn’t agree to that.

      • Thanks, Kar Marie. Truthfully, every person who ever lived probably had at least one decent thought, even Hitler and Satan. Wouldn’t listen to them either.

  • Simple!! Don’t Get Married. I thought the gay community was fighting so hard for marriage equality!! Well that INCLUDES Monogomy!! And if infidelity is WHO YOU ARE( LMAO ) then please be honest from the start BEFORE you hurt someone emotionally and physically and let the person choose if that’s what they want also.

  • If you’re consensually fucking other people, then it’s not monogamy or monogamish at ALL….it’s called an open marriage. Not a new concept. Own it. And good luck with that, as CL said.

  • >