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The Pick Me Dance for Fun and Profit

iwinAfter the last couple batshit crazy OW texts I’ve put through the Universal Bullshit Translator, I was thinking to myself — why? Why do Other Women (and to my knowledge, it’s just women) indulge in these whackadoodle taunts? Moreover, why do they write those insipid columns on HuffPo or YourTango mooning on about their affairs?

It’s one thing to be fucking another woman’s husband. It’s quite another to want to rub her nose in it. (Ewww.) Or broadcast to your victims and the world that it was All Part of God’s Plan. Or You’ve Really Grown As a Person Thanks to the Affair! Or Crushing Your Children’s Souls Was All Worth It Because I’m So Much Happier Now!

What the hell is going on here?

Short, easy answer — they’re narcissistic loons. But a more nuanced, skein-untangling way to look at it is — they really enjoy the pick me dance. Some people just love to compete. That’s a fine quality in business or sports, where the rules of engagement are laid out. And where you know you’re competing. It’s not like you’re standing on a field and people are mysteriously lobbing footballs at your head — you’re a participant in the game.

What’s special (in the short bus sense) about OW, is that a) they want to compete for a partner; and b) they only want to do so on a very unlevel playing field. Somebody has to be chumped, so they can “win.”

What makes the Broadcast My Happiness OW so freaky, however, is not only do they enjoy the competition — they gloat. They’re going to spike the football, do the silly dance, and shout “Touchdown! I WIN!”

(Or in OW-ish “The heart wants what the heart wants. It’s too bad you’re so ugly, bitter, and sexless and can’t keep your man. But it’s all for the best!”)

Here’s my theory on this — most OW want a lopsided competition (or they wouldn’t be OW). They attribute great meaning to the crumbs they get (he loves me better! that’s why he won’t introduce me to anyone! I’m THAT special!) — but only the deeply crazy gloat about it.

They need the special validation that comes from being PICKED. Not chosen. Chosen means commitment. If you’re married, you were chosen to be another’s partner for life. Supposedly, the great dating competition was definitively ended. But PICKED means you won out over another contender. You danced your little tap shoes off, and you were the last one standing.

The more disordered you are, the harder you dance. It’s Riverdance for Kibbles. This is true for chumps too. No healthy person competes for another’s love.

Because no person, who truly loves you, would make you compete for their love. Love is given. Love’s words align with love’s actions. Love is not Caesar in the colosseum giving the thumbs up or the thumbs down if you live or die. Love doesn’t throw you to the lions. Love keeps you safe.

The only people who want to compete for “love” are people who value “kibbles” (otherwise known as narcissistic supply). To them, it’s all a zero sum solution. More kibbles for me, none for you. OW, like other narcissists, prefer kibbles to love. It’s easy. It’s flattery, admiration without accomplishment, esteem without character, a quick rush.

And who cares who gets hurt, so long as they WIN? Just more proof that they’re superior and you’re inferior!

Step away from the game, chumps. There’s no love here.

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  • So what you’re saying is that ‘bitches be crazy’ is a real thing. Yep. Sounds right.

  • Three thoughts on this:

    1. It’s not just women. Male APs do this winning/gloat thing, too. My stbxw’s ap did it (then he wanted to “just talk about it…” After he hit me… Long story; he hits like a four year old, BTW).

    2. Sociopaths only really care about winning, so they’ll create a game to win if they have to, even if the prize isn’t worth having (like a cheater).

    3. Ultimately, who cares why they act that way? Ignore them and let their paltry, malformed egos shrivel up from kibble starvation.

    • 3 is untangling the skein, for sure. I have a chapter in my new book on why you shouldn’t bother comparing yourself to AP. They’re dim and available. That’s it.

      But I do think the Pick Me Dance dynamic is everywhere. Not just with infidelity. Anyone that triangulates for kibbles, who gets off on that, who wants you to dance to be worth — whether its a boss, or parent or partner, is to be avoided, IMHO.

      • Oh yes, OW is smug, and how! Mine knew he was married with kids and chased him down with bloodied fingernails. This lunatic truly gets off on thinking that she’s “won”. And my snooty, lying xmil welcomed the ow with open arms…she’s the cat’s meow!! They got married on our anniversary and she tries with every fiber of her being to outdo me in every way with my kids (they buy into it…for now…ugh…they’re young and have good hearts). We live 3 states away, so its real easy to put on the faux martha stewart routine for a few weeks out of the year. It’s nauseating. She will never stop her (one sided) competition with me. Same with xmil. I was always sweet to her even though she was cold.
        OW is so smug and arrogant while smearing of their “twu wuv” and simultaneously degrading me on social media. Classy. OW delights in tricking my kids into liking her and my exNARC is sure to shove her up my nose at every turn. Neverending taunting and trying to convince my kids that, golly, she’s just better than Mom in every way imaginable. See kids…Mom WAS the problem all along!! Dad FINALLY found MOM 2.0 who can do it “better” than Mom and makes poor ol miserable dad happy!
        It’s been two years and I’m convinced the karma train isn’t ever pulling into the station for these two. How do they always manage to land on their feet? Gah! If they only knew how foolish they look in my eyes..buuut they will never get how tacky they come off. I wish they knew that I’m laughing at them..but they’re living in a bubble. Barf
        The term “raised by wolves” comes to mind. Who does this to another human being? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills…they’re exhausting!

    • On the point of 1 — I’m sure men gloat. However, I’ve yet to see a MAN write one of that I’m So Evolved Because I Fucked Your Wife pieces of drivel on HuffPo.

      I think women display aggression differently — that mean girl thing, unfortunately, is pretty common. The ones who dress it up as feminism make me want to scream.

      • “That mean girl thing” was exactly what I was thinking when I read this post. Girls are definitely a different kind of mean. It’s more psychological. A man knows that if you taunt another man then it is likely to get physical, as evident in sephages’ post. And unless you’re a total meat head, most men don’t want to go there because its just dangerous. You never know how far it can go.

        I think women tend to think that things won’t get physical for them, but it can whether they are taunting men or women. And just to be clear I don’t condone physical violence whether it’s between the same gender or not.

        • True…..I would say that if one of her APs had gloated about what they had done, I would have lost my shit! The exact opposite happened with one…. he was quiet and scared.

        • By this thinking my ex husband is definitely a girl. He has been playing psychological games for kibble all his life.
          Everything with him is a competition.

          So glad to be free of the mean and crazy.

        • Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
          If some whore is stupid enough to get up in my face and starts throwing words around, I will throw my fist. And rearrange her face.
          (I’m female, if that wasn’t immediately obvious)
          And, I do condone violence – if all else fails. Some people just need the crap beaten out of them, if words don’t/won’t work, and they’re still being a condescending little shit. Or if they throw the first punch.

      • Me too!! Those women are a desecration to women EVERYWHERE and set mankind back, (not just the women’s movement) like 10 years. They always act so superior. It’s obvious it’s such a cover, and normally I’d feel sorry for them, but they are just so destructive that it’s revolting. But like a trainwreck, it’s hard to look away. There’s no way I could have quit reading that post yesterday, I HAD to finish it. Thanks for being funny too, because this has helped me so much. Normally, when I read things like this, they’d make me want to just die, but instead I laugh. It’s so therapeutic. It really makes me see life goes on, and can go on well. I’m still sad pathetic in the fetal position chump, but I’m working on it.

        • Kay, laughing is some of the best medicine! Glad we were able to make you laugh. Hang in there, it will get better!

      • Nothing says strong, powerful and independent woman like needing another woman’s husband.

      • You should head over to Jezebel. Amazing how having an affair with a married man can be justified. Luckily, there are loads over there fighting the good fight and slapping the OW types down.

      • Men probably just do this a little differently, too. My ex writes articles about how he’s so much more evolved than other people because he’s polyamorous (read, “loves it when he gets multiple women to do the pick-me dance for him,” “needs women to give him intense feels and drama because he’s dead inside”).

    • I think OMs are generally less vocal or prone to the Pick Me Dance because most of them like fucking married women because they DON’T want to commit. While OWs fight to have their name on the mailbox, it seems most OMs get off the idea of being the “back door man” who gets all the sex and excitement, while the chump husband gets stuck paying the bills, caring for the children and wondering why his wife is always rejecting his advances.

      • That was me Lulu….:( Paid bills, cared for the children, dog,birds, paid mother in law’s bills, all while she was suppose to be caring for her dying mom….she was with OM (un married co-worker).

        He said I didn’t make her happy any more… I was running around taking care of things and yes my advance’s were rejected.

      • Lulu, my guess is most OW don’t want to draw attention to themselves and want to be “back door” women too. (Forgive the unintended sexual innuendo there.) In fact, I think many of them probably do have low self esteem, or other Issues. The in-the-face OW, IMO, are a super disordered segment. Probably a minority, but they get a lot of attention because they’re so out there. And folks run their articles because its click bait. The comments are rarely supportive. But the author is so delusional, she doesn’t see it or care.

        I had an in-your-face kind of OW (well, the long-term one) and seriously, I just think she was mentally ill.

        A lot of OW write me and they just come off as rather sad and pitiful and regretful. And wonder if they should tell the chump. (Their benevolence only surfaces after they’re dumped. Funny, huh?)

        I’ve only had a few chilling, in-your-face OW letters or trolls. Cluster Bs, my guess.

      • I have always maintained that it is society in general and the way that sexuality is used in so much of the media that puts the burden of being young and thin and beautiful and sexy on Women more so than on Men who can be older and leathered and still be considered sexy that sets things up for women to compete with each other. I know when my mom was growing up there was not as much value placed on women getting higher education because after all she was just going to get married and the girl who gets the best guy wins! Yeah sad I know and of course the world has changed some since then. I don’t relegate it to just immature Junior high stuff because really the junior high kids are just practicing an exaggerated version of real life or at least it is the “real life ” that is portrayed to them through all the media and often even in our own homes. Where there are beauty pageants for women where it is all about how she looks with only a wink to whether or not she can put two different concepts together and come up with something new or not but we don’t have anything like that for men that I know of(pageants). And all those rules of behavior that we are taught on how to act….like the guys generally does the asking out and/or initiates the call and women although they can make an approach a lot of guys see it as pushy or it goes to that whole the woman has to be up on a pedestal and unattainable for them to be wanted so women learn to act like bitches and as if their crap don’t stink and guys they have to face the whole take a gamble and risk rejection thing but at their core they also know that they chose who they chase. I’ve always said that we all get a minute to be young and beautiful but after that we all get old fat and ugly but the guys seem to get a longer minute than women. This makes for girls to have base their self esteem on their physical desirability which when it doesn’t match up to what they see in the media (which itself is a distortion of reality and not really attainable) then what do they got left to do but to try to be more like that image as they can and with that as a goal the only way to gauge success is by comparing how close they themselves to those they see around them or by comparing how good of a guy they are able to attract to those around them. I guess what I am trying to say is that as a society on the whole we totally encourage this type of disordered behavior and twisted self serving thinking. I guess I am a true chump because I believed that when you take a vow you keep it whether or not you would rather do something else later on. I thought that was actually the point of making it in the first place. Also I think that probably men are less inclined to be blatant in their competiveness in the romance department because it doesn’t match up with that lone wolf macho cowboy image they are encouraged to be like. They are also encouraged to value physical beauty in women and to use them as a status symbol. Sure they like to think that the other guys are envious of them because they have a young beautiful woman on their arm but they don’t have to say it as it is obvious to the other guys so they don’t have to play games. Women they know that guys a just a bit less picky than gals so even if a woman isn’t miss America she may still have a shot of stealing a guy with another girl. I guess they call it mate poaching. There are always those who want to get a big payoff for doing as little as possible whether or not it is right or wrong. So you get all these women out there with low self esteem because they can’t achieve what society says it is what they should be so they play all these games to try and take the prize in order to prove they are good enough. We all know if it doesn’t come from inside you then that feeling they get from doing something that says Ha! I am good enough to do xxxxx. is only temporary so they have to keep doing it. Now this stuff is so in grained in our behavior that we don’t even recognize it.

        • The only ones who really care about this shit are disordered types. Which, unfortunately these days, is becoming more and more common.
          If you don’t subscribe to that shit – you just have to have rock solid boundaries on things, and generally you’re ok. Believe it – that the average person doesn’t give a fuck for that stuff – even though media play it up otherwise.
          The other you get, the more trashy those other people get. That being said – its a pain in the arse with people my age (30) who think their lives revolve around social media and reality TV nonsense – when I myself have been in a career for almost 10 years, and that shit disgusts me.

    • Martha Stout, Robert Hare say “that sociopaths engage bc they aim to win.” Dr Simon says for manipulative people every encounter is viewed as an ‘I win/you lose’

      They don’t view “winning” in the positive sense of achieving success––but rather as causing others to lose. And I guess nothing spells winning like rubbing someone’s face in the fact you took first place and stole their kids and doc

      I think those letters, texts, fb pics of YOUR kids say, I WON. I WON. I finally didn’t screw something up (YET). I am really good enough to succeed in something and I want the world to know.

      The Internet gives the disordered a big stage to gloat, to pontificate, troll whatever. You used to have to get dressed up and go out w your trophies for validation — now you can do it in your pj’s.

      Email and texts from the OW are in the same category to me: it’s a ‘covert’ GOTCHA. That’s why the disordered always circle back. To engage and win again.

      I have seen letters written privately from a male spouse to the OW’s spouse explaining why he was the ‘man for her’. Never on line

      And yes, women do show aggression differently than men. To them it’s a beauty pageant or I can take care of, or nuture better, or the heavens destined it. It’s often dressed up as ‘desirability’. It’s still reads disordered to me.

      • Winning to a cluster B = I have power over you, even if it caused me damage to have that power.

        • Tempest,

          Are you suggesting they’d “cut off their nose to spite their face”?!?!?

          (Too bad they wouldn’t ever cut off their cockandballs to spite their skanky whore!!!)

  • So very true, stay the fuck away! OWS and OMS and cheaters all love to play the game (with all sorts of mindfuckery and goal shifting) so that you can’t win. Well if “winning” means getting that bitch back FUCK YOU and the slutty donkey you rode in on. And it does seem to be OWS more than OMS but I think that is because guy chumps know that if we respond in the way we want to we end up losing our kids, even more shit in the divorce, and end up in jail. So we don’t report it as much, it happens maybe not as much but in my case if I were to respond I think I might send a congrats on the pregnant whore card along with Thank you dead black roses.

    • Agreed…..I unfortunately was so blind sided and emotionally a wreck….I responded and rimmed his car. He took out a restraining order and kicked me out of my house….and of course I went nuts….all planned by them to make me react…..Jail….yup ended up there. Because when you violate a restraining order….there is no get out of jail card.
      3 years later…..the same judge who was my restraining g order judge is now my divorce judge…karma….because he saw how my husband did me wrong and he is giving me 60% of every thing and alimony……

      • Yeah, Tracy! (and were you the one whose X was trying to keep your hand-sewn curtains? and quilts?)

      • I dont condone violence but man Tracy love your hutzpah. I tried to confront the OW at work (this was during our 24 hour reconciliation after which I figured out his game and kicked him out). She wasn’t there but her office was located at the end of the building such that all her coworkers and boss’ offices surrounded hers. Her boss asked me what I needed. I asked for her by name and the woman that was fucking my husband. The look on the bosses face was priceless. I was told she wasn’t in and would l like to leave a message. I told eveyone rather loudly that there was a special place in hell reserved for woman like her and that she destroyed the lives of 2 kids and that she was a fucking whore. Of course I was escorted out but to this day she is scared of me. She “won” my ex who is a pathetic loser (I joke that he would be the first to die in a zombie apocalypse since he is so weak) but at least everyone at her job knows what she did. They actually call her “the Vulture” now according to the grapevine.

        Also my son actually said to me (he is 15) that was kind of cool what you did. I often wonder if I did the right thing. There is a push after you find out about the affair to be dignified and a lady and sort of sweep it under the carpet. I think it should be make public. I think these people need to be called out.

        • Go you!! When Pigvomit purposely left me an explicit text from Skankhag to read, I lost my shit and kicked his ass out. He’s 6’4″ and I’m 5’2″. He say the crazy in my eyes apparently and left. While he was getting dressed( I found out the text right after he showered) I picked up his 300$ guitar, calmly walked outside and smashed in to a million pieces in the street;) That was extremely satisfying, I have to say. My next Plan was to take window paint and write all over his car while he was at work ” I cheated on my faithful SAH wife and destroyed the lives of my 3 young kids with same skank i meet through work.” He worked at a large hospital, so most of the employees he worked with would have seen it. He would have had to drive all over town to get to a car wash. I didn’t do that though, as that might have affected c/s. Then his classic VW was parked on the street in front of my house for months. I sat in my car a number of times debating ramming into it, but I decided not to give into the crazy:). F. T. G.

          • I’m honesty not sure what I would do if I ran in OW. I’ve played the scenario over and I really don’t know how I would react, I’m not a crazy person, but this situation has brought out things in me that I wouldn’t normally do. They aren’t together anymore, poor sausages:'( but if she ever approached me or contacted me, I might lose my shit. You had every right to shame her publicly, IMO

            • I had nothing to do with Mr Fabulous Rock Star after I left.Bumped into him & last slapper a couple of months later when I was with someone new. She then went after him? (Didn’t work)! Sadly the great romance finished just after that. Just told them they deserved one another.
              So then crawly started stalking me. Went on for about 5 years.Ignored it.King hit me one night. Didn’t even see her there.In court it was all my fault; I knew he’d never leave me and only did so to make her life a misery.Also all of my friends hated her(nothing to do with her being a skanky slapper?)and it had made her really uncomfortable!
              This was just one of his groupies- I stay away from a lot of social media because some of these nasties continue to boast about the sex they had with Mr Fabulous- on tour,in my house etc.
              Last I heard of Mr Fabulous he was a junkie living in Vietnam.Bet I can guess what he’s doing there?

              • Mr Fabulous had a gig one night’s told me to stay home because it made crawly uncomfortable. Seem to recollect I went anyway & refreshed her with a jug of beer?
                But I was the mad one- should have been OK after round 1 chlamydia and warts.Round 2 should’ve been a breeze.?

          • Lucky for X-holes troll she lives 4+ hours from me and my ride was in desperate need of tires and wasn’t safe for the trip. I was going to load up his shit and dump it in her front yard, let the troll explain that shit to her husband. Wish I had still. I busted him before their first “meet up” trip, brazen piece of shit went anyway.

            I had planned on showing up on one of her visits and confronting her and humiliating her in public but decided not to because of my son, if he were old enough to understand it would be different. I know what she is and that’s what matters, I share the truth every opportunity I get.

            OW’s STBXH asked me recently if I was still in denial, I told him I’m no longer in denial but still can’t wrap my head around the depravity of it all. There is NO doubt in my mind that she is disordered as well, their whole long distance whatever is just stupid. I’ve posted before about their disturbing banter, very creepy, their schmoopie talk was equivalent to 7th grade love notes….just fucking embarrassing really.

            Truthfully she didn’t “steal” or “win” anything, I quit playing. He knew the jig was up and had zero interest in any attempt at an authentic existence. Stupid asshole even said “everybody loses”, but it didn’t stop him.

            He’s all yours now….no take backsies bitch ; )

  • The football analogy works in so many ways here. Yesterday’s bat-shit crazy OW was clearly spiking the football.

    And today, this line is EXACTLY what it is like for chumps prior to D-day when the reason for their partner’s devaluing and selfish behavior is not yet clear, “you’re standing on a field and people are mysteriously lobbing footballs at your head ”

    Pretty sure I have an emotional concussion from all those pointy footballs hitting me in the head for years.

    • I like the analogy. I kept getting hit by those footballs of blaming & shaming. Wow! Now it’s “pass…incomplete.” I’ve walked off the field, through the locker room & back to an authentic life.

    • Thought maybe I was going mad-chump lady has helped me realise they are not like us?, and could never hope to be. But because it wouldn’t cross our minds to have sex with someone else’s husband, while his wife was in the next room, its easy to believe we didn’t imagine it being done to us!

  • A long time ago, when my divorce was still fresh, I made the mistake of looking at the Other’s facebook page (before she blocked me, LOL). It was all pictures of MY kids, either scans of school pics I’d given my ex or pics from the one and only vacation they ever took the kids on. It was creepy and violating and felt almost like I’d caught a perv staring through one of my kid’s bedroom windows. I realize now that she was using the kids as some kind of trophies. “Look! I got him! And here are the kids!!” I remember the one and only one time my ex sent the whooor (my friends and I pronounce it this way, it’s funny, try it) to pick up one of my sons from a jr. high football game. She made a big show of standing there with the other “parents” and looking so parenty and responsible. I wanted to die, but then my son came out and said, “No thanks, I’m going to go with my mom.” You want to dance, bitch? To quote Janet Jackson, gimme a beat.

    Of course now they’ve bred and have their own spawn to legitimize their “love”, so my kids are no longer necessary. But I found it so interesting that someone would have the balls to showcase another person’s children like that. Interesting and scary and sad.

      • Right?? I’m actually glad they reproduced and my kids became vague shadows in their lives. Granted, it’s a grand mal tragedy that their father just kind of disappeared but they are no longer being flaunted by someone who neither deserves nor will ever have a position of importance in their lives.

        • Too bad my ex can’t have more kids for this to happen. OW parades my kids around as much as she can on social media. It does feel creepy and weird and completely wrong. I have her blocked because I just can’t see it or it drives me batty. I have had to tell “friends” to stop screen shooting and sending to me as well. I can’t imagine doing that with a man’s child and his ex…but I just do not have the same brain as OW, not even close.

          • Report that whore to the owners of said sites. Tell them that they aren’t her children and thus her accounts need to be removed from the site – or you will take it further.
            Those sites tend to take child-related things very seriously.

    • It’s always bothered me to hear second wives (or husbands) refer to their new spouse’s children as their own. I actually hear this all the time, even from people I think are nice couples with second marriages. I guess it just reminds me that some day I might hear another woman calling my kids “her kids,” or my grandkids “her grandkids.” Does anyone else have a problem with this? Maybe as I become more detached it will bother me less. I’ve just about gotten to where nothing surprises me any more.

      The hardest part of the divorce for me is losing time I would have been able to spend with my kids, because now they have to split their holidays between me and their dad, as well as their in-laws. It’s been 3 years and it’s hurting less and less, my kids are grown and will soon start families of their own. I try to just try to appreciate the little bit of time I get to spend with them as much as possible.

      • Lin, it’s been just about 9 years for me and yes, it still bothers me a great deal. I mean, I know all of the psychological benefits of having “more people who love them” and there’s no such thing as too many people to love a child…BUT. In cases like ours, where the new stepparent happens to be the person who got down with our spouses while we were still married to them, it’s a bigger, slimier cross to bear. If mine had told me he was just no longer into me, that he was tired of being married and asked for a divorce before beginning his new relationship, sure…it would have hurt and I would have fought to save my marriage. But it wouldn’t have hurt as much as being told I was crazy and then finding out he was screwing someone from work then coming home and saying “Hey, honey, what’s for dinner?” Accepting a new spouse is probably so much easier when they are really, truly “new” and not a carryover from the end of your marriage.

        The holidays were by far the hardest thing to get over. And I’m still fighting the holiday blues every single year, not because I don’t get to be with my kids (mine are older now, early 20’s and late teens and they don’t really spend any time w/ their dad) but because I can’t help but get caught up in all of the fantasy memories that arise. I tend to think about what was and what could have been, although now it’s easier to shoo those things away and focus on the present.

        It does get easier. I promise.

        • Augh, I spelled your name wrong. LYN. Sorry! This subject makes me type too fast 😉

        • I’m the product of divorced parents and believe me when I tell you that children reach maturity and are easily able to separate the cream from the milk. It’s the father’s loss. A loss that he later regrets…….but alas, it’s too late.

        • Happy I feel exactly the same…if my x would have told me he was unhappy and wanted a divorce before grooming his ho-worker now wifetress for 2 years and all the psycho-pick me dancing, I would have been terribly upset and tried to save my marriage but I think I would have had some closure without PTSD!

          I know he replaced me with her for her ability to grovel, not question his BS and access to her money but it still burns me that she THINKS she is special and enjoys my kids and my grands with having done nothing but be available to a married man!

        • Definitely would have been different had ANY of these assholes ended their marriages/relationships before starting with someone else, but that’s the selfish disordered. They can’t be alone with themselves.

          I could even have gotten past some of this had he just handled the situation like a decent human being when he got caught. I told him if he was going to pursue his affair partner that he needed to leave our home and go stay at his mother’s. What did he do?? Stayed for THREE months, continued his affair, flew down to Miami over Halloween and ditched ALL of hus kids to go, bought them both new “not so secret” phones and other shit (too much to list) all while mindfucking me and punishing me for whatever imagined slights he conjured up.

          This wasn’t just about him finding happiness or about ending our relationship, if it were he would be doing everything else like a normal human being and father, he is not. He isn’t just screwing me and our son over, stupid idiot is screwing himself more than anyone else and He. Can’t. Stop. Won’t. Stop. It boggles the mind.

          • Why won’t they just leave? I know about cake eating,kibbles etc. But why stay only to torment us?

            • Because those assholes love that shit!! And then there is that “you’re not the boss of me” mentality. SMDH

      • I am very bothered by that too Lyn. I don’t get why these people are calling themselves stepparents. That is an old term from long ago when there was more mortality and people remarried lots of times to give their children another parent what with the way society was set up etc. with women staying home and being the child care person. When the child has a second parent already and especially if the person was an affair partner, it creeps me out.

        • Yes, I think new vocab words are in order. They are:


          I can be gracious–I’ll let them use any of those terms without complaint.

        • Go easy on the step-parents. I’ve been chumped by a snake. But after 26 years with him, I do consider his sons family, even if one is now estranged from his father (for reasons that have nothing to do with me). They’re my stepsons and always will be, nothing creepy about it.

          • I do know that some people form a special bond with their step-children and the children are glad to have it. It depends on the situation I guess. Some kids’ parents aren’t really there for them to begin with.

        • I also was a stepmother. And I respected the mother of my two stepchildren in the fact that I would have been PISSED OFF royaly if some ‘stepmother’ wanted to claim my children as hers. My ex never said anything (until shit hit the fan a few years ago) about how ‘hurt’ he was because whenever anyone asked, “How many children do you have?” I’d always reply, “We have three sons and he has a daughter and a son.” I asked him, “Why didn’t you ever bring that up before?” His reply was, “I didn’t think I had to.” What a crock of shit — yet again!! Anything to make me feel guilty. I found out later why my ‘narcissist’ had a different behavior than other narcissists. “A narcissist will basically role-play and respond in whatever manipulative manner that garners the best response. If they are up against a strong, determined and independent person they will move into the role of a sensitive, loving, caring and vulnerable character.” I’ve always been strong and able to take care of myself, so I couldn’t understand why I wasn’t going through the same issues as many women (and men) described on this website (i.e., the yelling and physical abuse.) My endured abuse was condescending remarks and making me doubt myself and feeling guilty that I didn’t appreciate him enough or love him enough. He made me doubt myself for years! I tried everything to make him happy. He used the vulnerable, sensitive tactic on me because yelling at me sure as heck didn’t work. He made me feel guilty even though what I wanted was never unreasonable. He made me feel guilty when he said, “I just gave up. I decided to just give in.” All of which was pure bullshit — especially as he had his skank in the background for 11 years! However, he knew that tactic (the vulnerable and sensitive approach) would work on me where the other tactics wouldn’t. As for my stepchildren, I never, ever tried to take their mother’s place in their hearts. Maybe I’m a cold insensitive woman, but I always respected the mother of those children. I put myself in her shoes and I just knew that she would not appreciate it if ever I said that her children were ‘MY’ children. But it does not mean that I treated her children differently. I treated them as a good mother treats her children. I treated them the same as my own. I respected their thoughts, their individualities, and their privacy, but as with my own, I also expected their respect in return. Did I love them differently? Yes, I admit that I did, but there was no overt display. They all were treated the same, i.e., with respect. Were my son and my stepson both drowning, I admit that I would save my son before my stepson. Sorry, but I would. Blood is truly thicker than water. But I was a good stepmother. In fact at my stepson’s wedding when his mother and I were walking by ourselves down the hallway, I told her that she did a wonderful job raising her children. That her children were good, loving and respectable people, and I told her that I KNEW that she did it because my husband (her ex) was hardly ever in their lives. And he wasn’t. By the way, those ‘girls’ mentioned in the OW’s e-mail to me yesterday were not our daughters. They were my stepson’s daughters that we had for 14 months while their parents were in Afghanistan. They were tiny (1 year and 3 years) and for that matter they were unable to tell me that their grandpa took the skank camping with them. Additionally, I believe that skanks write those ugly letters because they are threatened, and in the case of my ex-husband’s skank, she was ANGRY that he was dumping her and she went for blood, my blood! Before I end my reply, one thing that Chump Lady said, “No healthy person competes for another’s love.” She is right. And I wasn’t healthy. I’m a very strong, intelligent, lovable woman — NOW. However, as I was going through the years of gaslighting, I was broken down with no self esteem. I had grown up with an extremely abusive father and didn’t see my husband as abusive because he never physically hit me. I kept wondering why my husband didn’t love me. Why was she better than me? So please Chump Lady, keep writing and writing because your words finally do break through to the extremely damaged person that others just don’t understand. Others have told me, “You must like it! You keep going back for more of that abusive shit!” But the answer is ‘No’, I never liked it, I just didn’t know any better. NOW I DO! And I will NEVER put up with that shit ever, ever again. (Not yet healed, but getting there!)

          • Amazon Chump,

            I really appreciate your post. I most particularly appreciate your RESPECT of your stepchildren and their mother. I will post a longer comment below when I have time as CL’s post today and the post yesterday are two that I have needed to hear. The OW in my case is as, if not more, disordered than my covert narcissistic psychopathic EX. I have always marveled at her complete inability to have any respect or any notion of what should be acceptable. Then I realized in OW World there are no such things as respect, rights, boundaries, acceptable behavior – except in service to self. I believe that most, if not all cheaters, are suffering from severe arrested development that renders them unable to function mentally and emotionally beyond the toddler or primary school level. I think that is why so many of us who have matured and who are fairly rational find ourselves asking repeatedly, until what we are actually dealing with finally sinks in, “Who does this shit?!”

            Thank you for you post yesterday in bringing this topic back around. I am at the place where I believe I can actually internalize it and maybe come to some kind of peace with it.

          • Amazon Chump, I’ve thought about how I would handle marrying someone with children and I agree with you. I would make sure to honor the children’s mother. I wouldn’t call them “my children,” but I would treat them well and let them know I would be there for them. I wouldn’t want to replace their mother.

            • I agree with all of you. I was remarried last year and my husband has 3 children from his first marriage. I am always kind to them and care for them, but I am very careful to not appear to be attempting to take the place of their mother. I am even careful about how many photos I post on facebook that include them because I do not want his ex to feel I am trying to throw something in her face (my youngest step-son lives with us).

              A few weeks ago was Parents’ Day at my college age step-son’s football game. Before the game, my husband was kind enough to ask me my thoughts on who should walk out with step-son for the half-time honors and introductions. My response was: Of course just you and step-son’s mom should walk out with him. You are his parents. He doesn’t need me tagging along.

              I stayed in the stands and took photos during the event. After the game my step-son came up to me and gave me a big hug and kiss, and asked the photographer to take some photos of the 3 of us. My husband’s ex even took some photos of us together with my camera.

              I personally prefer to keep a low profile, and my step-sons know I love them and love their father. Why would I need to make sure I’m seen with my step-son or make him or his mother uncomfortable?

              Oh wait, I’m not an AP so I don’t feel the sick need to stick myself in someone’s face and these children’s events to prove that I “won” and that their mother “lost.”

              • That’s great, Kelly. And what makes that kind of actions possible is that your husband and his ex broke up and divorced the right way. If there is no cheating involved, exes can be friends. Too bad our cheaters didn’t see that.

          • Same here, loved your post An Amazon Chump. Sounds eerily similar to mine and X-holes lives, not outwardly abusive just made me feel like it was never enough, never good enough, I couldn’t make him feel loved enough, appreciated enough….he was the sensitive one, the “nice” one. Made me doubt everything about myself…I mean wtf do you say when your love isn’t good enough??

            We were never married (perpetually engaged, for which I am now grateful considering his financial status) but we lived together for 8 years and I grew to love his children very much. I knew my place, I was not their mother and never over-stepped those boundaries, she’s a great Mom. I was good to her kids and took good care of them when we had them and she knew it, we got along and it got better and easier and as the years went by we had a pretty good relationship. Good enough that I called her at one point when I was suspicious and asked her if he’d cheated, if that was the reason they divorced. It was. I am grateful for her friendship and honesty, she kept me sane, the similarities convinced me I wasn’t crazy and it wasn’t me!!

            I am fortunate to have remained friends with her and her family, they were incredible to me during the fallout and kind of adopted me and our son. I am sure they understood completely after watching him to the same to her and felt bad for us. Thankfully, because we are friends, I still get to see the kids and spend time with them.

            • And OW is not allowed around my son. Period. She is not divorced, they are 4 hours away from each other and not physically “together”. He does not have ANY court ordered visitation, I let him have our son every other weekend because it is important for my son’s emotional well being but he knows not to cross that line. Not even playing when it comes to my son.

              As for her…told him I will never be civil to her….ever. Dared his ass to ever bring her around me after what they did, told him I will shame and embarrass the both of them. I meant it.

      • Yes Lynn, I am so bothered by this, that as soon as the divorce papers were finalized I tricked the OW into meeting with me, told her that she could have my Ex because they deserved each other and that I would not interfere, but I told her that she would never, ever have my kids or their good feelings for her. I have told my kids who she is with no badmouthing, but just who she is (Dad´s girlfriend while we were married). Fortunately cheater X is still terrified of presenting her to the girls (I don´t even know if he is still with her) because it has taken a lot of work on his part for them to recover some faith in him. They still love him and enjoy his company, but there is a part of that love that was completely shattered and will never recover. They felt betrayed as well and still don´t understand how he could have done such a thing. But in an odd way, this situation has helped to illustrate how they should never be friends or date people who don´t appreciate them or treat them badly. Though it still breaks my heart that they know their dad is the example. My kids are 14 and 12 now and we have only been officially divorced since June though Dday was in January 2014.

        • My oldest son is 30. He recently told me that his Dad and married OW are still going on, although they try to hide it. He seems to still love his dad, but has lost so much respect for him. I know both sons avoid OW and her family like the plague. My ex moved to be closer to married OW and her family. So weird.

      • Lyn, I have mentioned this before, but, if you want to see that disorder in all its shining glory, go over to Reddit, to the step parents subreddit.

        All of the kids’ actual mothers are vilified and deemed crazy, unfit, and downright dangerous by their “step mothers”, many of whom were affair partners, and most of whom are not even married to the dads. It’s horrifying, and makes me glad I never really had the need to put up with that in my own life.

        My relationship with my kids is precious and sacred. I am their only mother, and I feel for all the chumps who have this added insult to their injury.

    • Social media is a blast isn’t it? The OW in my case likes to post pictures of my X that I literally took maybe 5 or 10 years ago. It’s like she’s saying, “Your memories, MY memories.” When I think back, during their affair she was actually “liking” pictures we posted of our kitchen remodel, even “liking” my comments. Ha ha . . . dig that?

      This woman knows nothing about me. We have never met, texted, or spoken on the phone. All she knows of me is what she gleaned stalking on social media and what my X must have told her. But truly, it’s a fucked-up mind that can hate another person simply because they are married to the person you’re not supposed to be fucking.

      I think it’s all the mean girl mentality. Women like this get a lady-boner over the drama of it. If it’s not smothered in theatrics or someone is not getting crushed properly, they’re not having fun.

      • Ugh..ugh and ugh over the “liking” stuff. My OW and I once both commented on my former sister-in-law’s post and that’s when she shat herself and blocked me. I guess it’s okay to crow about your victories to everyone but your victim 😉

        And yep. Regina George all the way.

        • I realize now that the pathological “like” after every single post is the OW’s way of announcing herself. The OW in my case would “like” everything that XH posted within seconds of his posting. Then I discovered the affair and it all made sense.

          It made further sense when I realized that she also “liked” the vast majority of the stuff she posted on her own timeline. I mean, how pathetic is it when someone “likes” the post of the quiz result that tells them that they are a sparkly person whom everyone else should admire?

          Now that XH is an XH, I’m finding it easier to laugh at how cliched the two of them are together. Last I knew, she was planning on moving in when I leave. That should be interesting. 😛

          • i never understood the liking your own posts thing. i mean it is like telling a joke and being the only one laughing. doesnt it make them feel bad when they are the only person to like their own post? although i am guilty of cracking a joke and laughing my head off {i happen to think i am hilarious} but thankfully it doesnt happen too often. my kids sometimes think i am funny too. i always thought you had to be a special kind of stupid to like your own posts. isnt it redundant? i mean since of course you like it or agree with it since you put it on your page in the first place. right. i mean do other people read your page and think oh, i didnt know she liked it until she pushed the like button, i was so confused to why she put it on her page now i can comment without hurting her feelers …… {see hilarious}

            then again, i am lucky to have actual friends on my facebook. who actually like what i have to say and post. not a bunch of people who i dont know. i dont put posts on my page either for like tally marks. my sense of self has nothing to do with whether or not someone likes what i posted. and i dont feel super cool because a bunch of strangers liked my post either. haha. they are sad pathetic losers who need validation from a bunch of people. the hood rat in my case has little boys she is friends with, anytime her 8 year old daughter and 12 year old son friend someone, she is right then friending them too. every time her 17 and 21 year old son get a new girlfriend, she is their bff dontcha know. and keeps them on her friend list even after the boy breaks up with them. i dont know about you all but i have no need to friend everyone of my kids friends and boyfriends/girlfriends. maybe if they plan to get married or something….sure. but if they are just dating for a week. i think i will pass. there is something just wrong with a 37 year old woman trolling for friends on her kids page. *shrugs* but THAT is the type of woman Diablo wanted i guess. no wonder i couldnt understand him. {like he said} hahaha

      • I honestly think that these OW can’t accept that their “prize” has a past. That’s why they are nasty, cruel, and attention whores on social media.

        • I think that’s exactly it. They are so threatened that you have a shared history and happy memories that their schmoopy will never have with them.

    • Hopefully, I dodged a bullet with the most recent OW. She seemed hell bent on having my life which included making sure she was totally awesome for Little Elf. Everything I heard from the early days, when he had just met her (and the EA was ramping up), let me to believe she didn’t like kids. Fast forward a year to when she was dumped, and couldn’t control herself by outing the whole shebang, when she was suddenly a maternal, child-adoring saint. WTF? Just because I’m paranoid, I am still going to make sure she never gets near my kid. Isn’t that what every young child with ASD needs? A lying, cheating dad for a role model and a psycho, delusional beeyotch girlfriend to take care of him? Not bloody likely.

      I have a social media ban in our house because Asshat is incapable of controlling himself. Hopefully, he will abide by the threatening language that will be included in any legal wrangling that it will remain as such. Sigh.

    • If my ex husband could convince people that our children came out of the current partners vagina, I dare say he would. They have been together less than a year, on Mother’s Day this year he insisted my kids get her a Mother’s Day present and took them to her house for breakfast before dropping them to me. A few weeks ago before I found out they were engaged he referenced her daughter as being his youngest child. And just this past weekend she posted pictures on FB of all of them putting together the newly purchased bunk beds to accommodate my two daughter and her one all in the same room when my ex husband has our girls once a fortnight.

      The day they announced their relationship on FB it was with a joint photo of all the kids as a back drop. My ex’s new partner didn’t write letters or emails to justify their relationship. No she stood before all at what was my church for more than a decade ( now his and hers) and declared that God had told her to have a relationship with my ex and how blessed she is by being obedient, even though people had warned her not too. She also shows up with him at places that she knows I will also be and hangs off him like a giddy teenager. Everyone forgets he cheated with dudes and I filed despite being bullied to remain married to the dysfunctional turd. I just shake my head. Enjoy the dance I’m going to sit this one out.

      • My ex did the same thing, basically compelling my girls to call his girlfriiend “Mom”. Why? Do they have so much hate and loathing for the mother of their children that they want to make believe that we never existed? He is the one that cheated, not me. Why must I deal with another woman parenting my children. This is one thing about divorce I just do not get.

  • One of the last conversations I had with my cheating ex before I left him included him telling me he was hurt because I didn’t “fight for him”. WTF? Was I supposed to beat up OW on the playground during recess?

    • Yeah, mine seemed disappointed that I didn’t move heaven and each to keep him. He would never admit it but the disappointment was palpable.

    • I got a similar comment from my dumbass too. I was yelling at him to GROW UP! He said “YOU didn’t LET ME grow up.” Huh? I guess he needs to behave like a child freak – and get another phone for sexting other women – and I should just WAIT until he outgrows his need to fuck around. Whatever dumbass….

      • Oh boy, LadyStrange, smh. I hope he spewed that gem while he was drunk. What sort of response is there to a statement like that that doesn’t involve cast iron?

    • “Why didn’t you fight for me?” My ex said this too, all forlornly, and after I had spent 8 years trying to keep our marriage going through 3 previous affairs. I just said, “I did fight”, referring to those previous years, but truthfully I didn’t fight in the final affair and I think that’s where he got sad and confused. Why wasn’t I playing the game anymore :(? Poor guy, I must’ve blindsided him.

      • My ex told me he felt great with married OW on their business trips, but felt guilty and bad when he came home to me. So it was my fault he felt that way. LOL. I was involved in the pick me dance without even knowing it! My ex was extremely competitive, btw. His whole life is based on competition.

      • The day I threw my husband out he was appalled I did not fight for him and our relationship. In fact I went out and got a sandwich to go while he was packing. My daughter and her husband arrived during the packing process. My daughter hugged me and said, “Sorry Mom I hate to see you in pain.” I looked at her and said, “Pain? this is relief. I don’t have to deal with him any more.” My husband’s mouth hit the ground after that. He started slamming his stuff into suitcases. I guess he had high hopes of going back to his honey with news on how upset I was.

    • I had the same tearful phrase Strad the night he was packing up to go (because I told him to leave). At the time I was really so confused by it but have since learned here that he wanted to be fought over not fought for- kibbles, so he could sit back and feel awesome. I had later realized I had been fighting for him and the marriage the entire time so when it blew up and I woke up to what had happened there was nothing left to fight for- ” Because no person, who truly loves you, would make you compete for their love.” (That line so resonates this morning-thanks Tracy). It’s so disordered that they can’t even see that.

      • Yes, through CL´s posts I realized that I had done the pick me dance and fought for him since DDay #1 (which was “just” a one night stand)…I bought all the books, made all the therapy appointments, tried to get him interviewed for a better paying job (which he rejected) blamed myself for post partum depression, NPD, etc, went on a diet, changed my wardrobe, got healthier, etc,etc. When Dday#2 came 8 years later, I kicked him out immediately because I realized I had done the work and he just didn´t want to have a healthy committed relationship. I think he enjoys the chaos and likes to live “excited” in that way. Actually, before discovering CL I was upset that he hadn´t fought for our marriage after Dday #2 …he went on vacation with the OW and left me to deal with the divorce and packing his stuff. I hated him so much more for that. When I asked him why he didn´t fight for our marriage, our family and for everything we built in 20 years he answered the lamest “because you were too mad.” Blameshifting again…

        • This sounds so much like what I went through. Soon after D-day, when I was dancing (but not nearly as pretty as he wanted), I found out he was lying about continuing to see the OW. He told me he was continuing to see her because I was so angry. When I pointed out that I was angry BECAUSE he was screwing someone else, he started in on some other circularly reasoned word salad bullshit. Then he avoided me altogether for days at a time until I got even more angry because we were supposedly reconciling. God I wish I could be a fly on the wall in his new apartment with his equally deluded and complication-loving mistress. The total absence of logic would make for some priceless conflict resolution.

    • By the time I finally had evidence of cheating, I’d been through so many years of emotional abuse and gaslighting, that I knew exactly how that conversation would have gone.

      Talking about HER would have done absolutely no good for me. He’d have gaslighted, stonewalled and blameshifted.

      The total fucked-up dysfunction of our marriage was summed up in that moment, and I just packed up and left without a word.

      Fight for him? Fuck that.

    • STBX told me that OW came up to him at a school event and hit on him and “you didn’t even do anything to stop it”???!!! First of all, I was clueless that this was happening, because, really, when I go to a school function, I don’t really expect to have to pry women off of my husband. Secondly, really? If I did see her hit on him, what is this middle school? I think he would;ve enjoyed the drama. Of all of the OWs that I have found out about (and there are many), this is the only one that I never contacted, never said a word to. I just kicked him out. And I think that he was irritated because of the lack of drama. It was just the end, no dancin’.

      • LOL Dramafree. My stbx became a total asshole a couple months before I found out. He was blaming me for off the wall shit, would yell at me for stupid stuff, pick fights, etc…. Then I found out, danced a little in the fog, then filed for divorce. This was over 2 years ago.

        A few months ago we were ‘talking’ and trying to compromise (ha!) and I said to him “I knew something was up when you were acting like such an asshole!” His response to me was “So YOU KNEW something was up, yet you did NOTHING to fix it.” Apparently it was all up to me to ‘fix’ the cheating. Because I should have KNOWN that when he becomes a complete asshole after 18 years of marriage, I should expect him to cheat on me and a simple blow job every night would have saved the marriage. What the hell was I thinking?

        • Sounds like mine…a total jackass in the last 3 months before he told me he was “in love” with a new woman. I spent 2 (yes 2!) dancing. I finally stopped when I was begging for answers and he said things were bad for years and he waited and waited for them to get better. Of course you did, poor sausage, because God forbid you do something less passive and actually work on the things that bothered you. Easier to let me take the responsibility.

    • Regarding the ‘fight for me’ comment, my STBX’s affair partner had a text conversation with me shortly after D-Day #1. I asked her what she would do if she were me. She replied, ‘Fight for him [my husband/now STBX].’ I was in no mood to fight for him at that point and am in no mood to fight for him now. I can barely tolerate teaching our kids with him a few hours/week. (I hope that our children, especially our learning-disabled one, become ‘stabilized’ soon so that STBX and I can get out of shared time without harming our kids.)

  • “The more disordered you are, the harder you dance. It’s Riverdance for Kibbles. This is true for chumps too. No healthy person competes for another’s love.”

    All along I thought that I was trying to make the marriage work with my upon reflection one sided Herculean efforts. The date nights, attempts at deeper conversations, suggested therapy, comparing our astrological signs…

    When I found out that he had a Magical Soulmate I immediately stepped away. No trying, lots of crying and no dancing. I refused to compete with HER (or anyone else) for him. She’s now moved in to our old apartment with her two children while I try my best to keep it together for me and our two children.
    Interestingly enough, he told me that Magical Soulmate provided a place where he could escape and not have any responsibilities, yet….


    This OW does her gloating through social media. She shows off the awesome places they go and the fabulous gifts that he buys her (but denied me, as we didn’t have any money. However, when things got better, he would ………> insert promise/plan HERE).

    She believes that she is better than me. she has held his hand through this trying ordeal with his ‘awful’ wife who is a ‘poor’ mother to his two beautiful children. She bangs on and on about how she despises me and that I’m crazy, when SHE is the disordered one. Oh well.

      • Good call, CL.

        BTW the Kibble Riverdance had me on the floor rolling. What a visual.

        • I know Calamity, I’m with you in laughter!!

          River dance for kibbles! Cracks me up, ChumpLady!

    • Wait- I can’t believe this Nutter posts on social media about you, what an awful wife you were? So her Fakebook has pics of his ‘poor’ children, who have such a bad, bad Mom?
      Does she enjoy broadcasting to the world that she is full of disorder, and a backwards-looking fool? I would try really hard to never look at that again, it’s only going to hurt, you’re better off not visiting the Land of Idiots!
      Hang tough Cynamon, embrace the new life you have, and know she is NOT better than you. I hope you have custody of the kids!

  • Yes other man will try to rub BH face in it if he thinks BH can’t whoop his ass.
    If he’s afraid of BH he will tell in the future under the pretense that he’s a changed man, found God, etc…
    All bullshit ! OM just wants to brag. It’s part of the game. He thinks he won but doesn’t feel it until BH knows.

    • hood rat posted a picture of 2 dogs, there is one big dog and one little dog looking all scared shitless at the big dog. the quote said “When you old boyfriend mets your new boyfriend (or man or bae or something) and i thought yep the scared shitless one looks just like Diablo. and laught my ass off. i have seen pictures of her husband. grate it he is not a huge mexican, we tend to be short and stubby, but he is still a lot bigger and out weiights diablo, who is a very petite mexican who can shop in the boys isle (not saying anything bad about that either).

      stupid ghetto girl actually “THINKS” diablo will fight for her. she has a very rude awakening then when he runs away like the scared little bitch he really is. the only time he is bullet proof is when he is so drunk he cant stand up and let me tell you how those fights usually go. DUMBASS and DUMBER ASS for thinking he will. i bet her husband got a kick out that post too. diablo doesnt facebook {computers are so very confusing for him} so he has no clue all the stupid shit she is posting. only a few of her people comment or like her posts whenever she puts something about her “boyfriend” being so great. i think everyone can see what a worm he is. he cant even make a decision without having to call his girl. {oh, unless it has to do with drinking, then he forgets he has to ask her first but if you want to sell him a tire, fridge, or anthing else he has to get permission first}

      they make me laugh at how stupid they are. i keep waiting for the karma bus to hit them but i think they are so stupid that karma is too busy laughing at them to get enough speed to hit them. misery loves company she likes to say.

  • The guy my wife committed adultery with would come out of my old home, act like their was a new sheriff in town and claim ” he was doing my job as a Dad”

    I think it was done to try to provoke me into a fight so I would be arrested by the cops.I am glad I didn’t rise to the bait.I always think the best revenge ever is to let him find out what it is like to be married to a persuasive blaming, violent, lieing, narcisstic psycho bitch.

    Meanwhile I have just married another chump who happens to be the most kindest, loveliest most decent woman I have ever met.To anyone just going through D Day or a divorce I can testify there is a much, much better life out there with people who will treat you with integrity and kindness just keep swimming through the sewage like the Shawshank Redemtion!!!

    • I just hit a turd while swimming through the sewage today. A guy of the dating site, who finally got my number after he showed great interest for jazz music, sent me about 30 text messages. The purpose ? To meet over a drink sometime during the week. He managed to stay evasive, post meaningless words and “intellectual” quotes, until I could not take it any more and asked him to stop, and then he became aggressive. He tried to call. He texted that removing my profile from the dating site would do everyone a favor.
      Gawd, in comparison my cheater is a subtle, intelligent man. It’s been almost 5 months since he walked out and I miss him more than ever. How do you deal with morons on dating sites, people ? I feel like impaling my stomach on a knife right now, urgh. It’s horrible. How long will I have to put up with this ? I can’t believe I’m missing my ex more now than when he walked out.

      • Sometimes our mind plays tricks on us, we keep remembering the good qualities, and forget the pain they (meant) to cause us!

        • I should have written down all the nasty details, because they evaporated from my immediate memory.

      • ChumpFromF, a lot of us can probably relate. I had an online dating weirdo too, he got very nasty because I wanted to email a few times before meeting. Said I was a total and complete waste of his time, among other things. I blocked him fast. It was too soon for me to date anyway, I’d just separated and was crying over my husband every day. It’s been a year for me and I still miss my ex sometimes. Time is your ally. It will get better; hang in there.

      • At just five months out I would say maybe focus on you and don’t date. I say this because if you’re missing your ex so much you’re not really available for anyone you might meet. Take the time to heal, think about how you can be happy alone, forget about being part of a couple and forget about trying to ‘show’ your ex that you too can move on.

        I don’t know how long you were together but I repeat: if you’re still missing your ex slow down on the dating and focus on healing and building your life just for you.

        • Thank you Fifi and Nord. Five months out for a 15-year relationship might be a bit too early. Strangely though, I was under the impression that I could date after only a couple of weeks, and I did go out a lot and enjoy myself in the summer. But waves of the wreckage hit me now that the weather is cold, the house is empty and dark in the evening…
          I will follow your wise advice and slow down.

          • The ‘dating’ idea is bullshit. You’re far better off doing activities you enjoy, and meeting people through that. The far majority on those sites are nutjobs.

          • We all heal in our own ways. I dated a bit around the 4-6 month post-D-day point and it was a really good for me. It allayed my fears that no one else would ever want me, and it let me flex my “picker” skills. I kicked men to the curb swiftly and permanently to whom I would have allowed far more leeway prior to my marriage. It felt very empowering to take back control over who and what I want, and who I will invite into my sphere. I got my full and stopped dating for the next 6 months. I went out on some more mediocre dates, kicked another whackadoodle to the curb, and went back on hiatus. Long story short: you’re in control. You can start and stop dating at any time, for any reason, and that feels pretty awesome.

      • Remember the healing process is not linear. You will have bad days. Sometimes just when I think I’m closing in on meh, something will unexpectedly knock me back. And it doesn’t even have to be one of my usual triggers. But I’ve come to learn that just because I’m feeling something, doesn’t mean it’s true. For example, if I’m feeling like this is all my fault and I drove him away, I know it’s not true, it’s just the self doubt creeping in. The good news is those times are fewer and further between than they were and I’m able to fight it off. It doesn’t consume me, or paralyze me the way it did in those early days after D-Day.

        It’s an easy trap to fall into to remember the relationship as better than it was, and to rush to recreate it. Fight that and try to build a solid life for yourself before inviting someone else into it. ~hugs~

  • As far as the women who write about it on Huff Post, etc., you can tell they are still getting off by writing about how they were picked over the wife, even if ultimately the relationship didn’t work out. They can’t comprehend that it wasn’t their magical powers and magical vagina that helped them get someone else’s man. They throw around the world “love” as though it’s something one has no control over. The bottom line is that they made themselves available and in the process helped to ruin many lives. But they’ll never admit/acknowledge that because, hurrah, they were picked!

  • “No healthy person competes for another’s love. Because no person, who truly loves you, would make you compete for their love.”

    I couldn’t even muster the dry sarcastic Willy Wonka “no stop come back…”

    Tracy, Thank you for continually reinforcing my decision to forego the pick me dance and get through divorce as soon as possible. Some people still congratulate me on my awesome “time” as if I was winning the marathon of life change. In a way I’d like to think they’re right. Others can’t believe I would make such a drastic change so quickly. For them I will keep the link to this post handy.

    As for the Flying Whore, take him, Narkles the Clown is all yours. I hope you find happiness cheating on each other.

  • We have named several types of Cheaters … I think the APs fall into categories all their own. As they say, every lid has a pot. So does a Jesus cheater pick a Sanctimonius AP or do they go for the polar oppposite ? The Cheerleader( you are the best, you are the best) ? Or the ever so talented Yoga Master( whos body is ever so flexible and there minds can be just as bent) ?
    When I think of my Idiot and all the shit He said I never did for him… Well… I expected he would find someone that was a cross between Angelina Jolie and Jenna Jameson…not the chubby cheeked tweeny that he did.

    • My X should really have a realistic sex doll programmed to discuss his _____ [academic subject]__, and tell interesting anecdotes at dinner parties.

          • I actually googled blow up dolls as my parting gift, ( ok, wine was involved…and it was late…sorta ) I’ll even inflate it for him. It will be laying on top of the blow up mattress in the middle of the living room. That is the only thing that will be left in the entire house after the movers are finished. Maybe a note saying ” be gentle with me”?

    • Well my X never had a religious bone in his body; OW was a Jesus cheater extraordinare (“”I’m not perfect, just forgiven.”) Boy, did that ever fuck with my head!

      • Violet, same here. My STBX’s AP is on the board at her and her STBX’s church. He would get irritated with me if he even caught me praying. His entire family believes that “religious people” are hypocrites. Et tu Brute? I’m waiting on him to find God with his one twu wuvs help.

  • I think there is a fucktard virus circulating!!!

    After not seeing or hearing from Fiona the Ogre for months (since the incident in the E.R.), within three hours of reading yesterdays post, I got a hand written letter passed to me by a secretary in our school district’s administration offices. It was from the slunt….and I later learned that the secretary that delivered it to my classroom was HER FUCKING MOTHER!!!!!

    Let me tell y’all, this fucknugget is right on par with these other recent nutter skanks! Really, the fact that she had her MOTHER hand deliver the shit to me at OUR WORKPLACE, in my opinion, earns this crazy twat waffle some bonus points!!! ( And, a few extra bitch slaps too!!!)

    Chump Lady,

    I know the UBT must be stuffed to capacity with this shit lately, but ohhhh how I would love to run this pure fuckedupedness through it when/if the UBT and CN are ready to handle more ramblings from a delusional fucktard!!!

      • Oh I so would try even if you can’t. Can you imagine asking your mother to do your dirty work for you? Much less your mother actually DOING it!

    • Wel, I’m floored, Got 99. This is a whole other level…

      Proof, again, there are no boundaries in hell.

    • 99, how did you not lose your shit?! Can you go to the administration and explain why that it completely inappropriate? I suppose they don’t care about your personal life but that is beyond the pale. There doesn’t seem to be a reason to disturb you are work unless maybe she was writing you to inform you your hair was on fire.

      • * is, not it
        ** at, not are

        I imagine Apple autocorrect is programmed by a room full of passive aggressive narcs who just enjoy pissing everyone off. Or not.

    • “Fucknugget” – love that, and also, what ChumpyElf said. That is so not appropriate for work. But lots of workplaces are dysfunctional, so make sure the administration isn’t her cousin or BFF or something, before you complain. Just my cynicism speaking here.

      • Or, Fifi, that “fucknugget” and Mommy haven’t already screwed all the men on the board already! Sounds as if Mommy passed her low morals down to her darling daughter!

    • Thanks so much chumps for validating how incredibly unfuckingbelievable that act was!!! I worked for this district for 10 years. So, I knew the bitch by first name, had numerous work related or small talk interactions with her and whatnot. However, since she is in another building (on same campus), and because I tend to avoid the administrators (what high % of Admins and CEOs are narks?) as much as possible, only saw her on infrequent occasion and never got to know her more personally. Therefore, just to be clear about the magnitude of the fuckedupedness, I had absolutely no fucking idea the skank’s mother was my colleague!!!!

      Maybe if the slunt she birthed took normal selfies rather than only ones of her in the bathtub or with green slop slathered all over her face….. but ONLYto the first chin (bwaaahaaaa, Goodbye Dr.EviI is quite observant!), the bitch at work may have had a photo displayed on her desk, and thus, I a fuck of a heads up!!!

      To be honest, I’m still in a state of shock and disbelief with the entire experience and haven’t even begun to actually take in the reality of it all!!! The letter itself still has my jaw on the floor! All thing’s considered, it certainly appears the slunt has a bigger set of balls than the ones at the end of hotdog being thrown up her hallway!!!

      Oh, also, to those who rightfully suggested I report slunt mom’s behavior….as others countered, politics rule in public school (at least here in PA) and she is an administrative assistant!!! So, its much more likely than not that both Roberta’s and Fifi’s assumptions are correct! Slunt mom has fucked the whole board, no doubt, and probably takes up under the board room table and makes rounds on her knees to them during each month’s meeting! AND, they are probably all related to each other too!!!

      Because she hand wrote me the pile of her pig slop, I have to transcribe (verbatim, of course) to electronic form to send off as UBT fodder. Since we are off from school tomorrow for the holiday, I should definitely have it submitted by the afternoon to await the UBT having a hankering of twat waffle wackadoodles.

      • And cause I unwillingly had this vision in my head after posting the above (because my brain is a sick visual freak and forces this shit on me), I’m just gonna throw out a suggestion, request, bribe even (if CL may have a proposition in mind)!


        I know I’m asking a whole lot today, but
        I’m pretty sure a cartoon would be very much entertaining of the skank’s bitch of an “accomp-o-mom”, …. (happy humity hum hum(er) *teehee) …… just going about “performing” her typical job responsibilities as an adminiatrative assistant………under the board room table, pleasantly “assisting” the administrations from her knees (in counterclockwise order this month and just like she demonstrated her strengths in her initial job interview with this very compentency exam)!!!

  • Thank you once again Tracy for bringing clarity to a fucked up situation, I read today’s post to my mother. She loves chumplady, she doesn’t know what chump means and keeps telling me I have to be a “chumplady” like you – ha!!!

    Love doesn’t have to compete. <3<3 <3

  • The OW can have him. After being faithful to that man for 38 years+, he shacks up with that roller skating whore on wheels. He’s damaged goods now, even if he ever does come back to his senses. He’s all hers, lol

    • Mine flies, yours skates.
      Either way….as long as they keep going and take the cheater with them. 🙂

  • Chumplady — you have zeroed in on the crux of the issue. Cheaters cannot be cheaters unless they have someone willing to cheat along with them. (I suppose, technically, that online long distance cheaters and porn addicts might not have a physical partner present — but I believe that they create a “presence” in their fantasy world that makes them a cheater — because the fantasy is not their spouse) What does the cheater partner believe? The CP believes that somehow they deserve all the kibbles they perceive others to have — that somehow there has been a mistake made, because the Other is not prettier, or smarter, or more successful, or wealthier, or whatever than the CP is. The CP is entitled to all the kibbles, and if others get hurt along the way, well that is just unfortunate. When a chump agrees to dance the Pick Me dance, the chump is agreeing to the terms of the cheater and the cheater partner. The CP has thrown down the gauntlet — there is nothing so slutty or disgusting that I won’t do it so that I can steal your cheater, and by “winning” I prove that I am superior to you. If I tire of your cheater, or if the kibbles are not as fine as I thought they would be, I will just find another, better Cheater, and I will steal that one and replace the one I stole from you. I am that wonderful and deserving. If you could stop me, you would, but we both know you can’t. The CP has no moral compass, or character. The CP believes that by “winning” the world will acknowledge the superiority, and accept the CP “deserved” to win.

    Society enforces these beliefs when they turn on the chump and shift the blame away from the cheater and the CP. If you loved your spouse, if you provided all the sex, and the type of sex, the spouse needed and wanted, if you worked a second or third job to provide the material things the spouse desired, if you controlled your children so that they would be a perfect reflection of the greatness of your cheater, if, if, if. The Pick Me is never ending, and the cheater is never satisfied. It is like trying to beat the house odds in Vegas. If you happen to “win” too much, your body may or may not be discovered in the desert one day.

    Women have been socially conditioned to believe that they must show they are worthy of the Man’s attention by the intense focus on their physical beauty. They also are expected to be tireless housekeepers, cooks, child producers and caretakers. They are expected to provide the “comforts” the man needs, after all his hard work doing his duties — bringing home the money, or food, or spoils of war. This has been the “role” historically — and it is only recently in history that women have ventured out to be educated and work and compete in the traditional “man’s world.” When women dared to change their historical role, the whole paradigm changed, and the struggle began for either equality or dominance. Just as the world was changed when Pandora opened her box, the world has changed when women discovered they could be more than the role assigned to them by society and tradition. No one who has escaped the box will ever willingly go back into it — but accepting the resulting changes has been hard on everyone.

    It is no wonder that cheaters and cheater partners are everywhere. They are the product of centuries of belief in entitlement. They deserve the best of everything. They are the alpha’s — and they don’t have to conform to or answer to the beta’s of the world. We should just shut up and serve them, the way we were intended to. After all, you cannot be a king or a queen without having subjects willing to serve you, and the servants must be willing to fulfill your every desire, or where is the fun in being king or queen.

    It is a primal struggle, Chumps. It is not an arena where compassion or empathy can win. Those things are regarded as weakness. If you accept those terms — who do you become?

    • Portia, you just said so much of what my husband kept telling me. Being a Leo by his Sun sign, he likes ordering around and being treated like the king. He told me that since he married me I should be eternally grateful that he chose me, and get satisfied with it. The fact that he flirts outright with other women in front of me – well, learn to live with it because I am the Leo, the gregarious, shining, Alpha motherfucker. Women are just all around me, what can I do. Handsome, charismatic, intellectual. And also so innocent! It’s the women that are sticking to him, he does not do anything!

      When I first discovered his tel. conversations with the OW, I read him telling her “If you want to be part of my jungle you have to act respectfully, i.e. follow my rules.” Apparently, she was pressing him to let me know about their relationship and he obviously did not want to escalate the already existing tension, so he was putting her to her place. He made this jungle comment to me on multiple occasions. Every time I asked him for more togetherness he just mentioned that he was already gracious enough to give so much of his precious time and attention to me and our son. For the note, during the past 6 years we lived in two continents and saw each other twice a year: Christmas for 3 weeks and summer for 1.5 months. He confused me and the whole world with his complicated business affairs that he could not leave behind and hence be with his family more often, so he makes it look as a great sacrifice to fly over once a year and be a good husband and daddy for 45 days. That’s all he can handle.

      Our marriage lasted for 12 years because we saw each other for 2 months a year for the past 6 years. I kept yearning for him and the my illusion of closeness (which we never ever had with his secretive ways and hiding everything from me), but also during those short periods of cohabitation he would be exemplary and I would be thrown back into the hopium state again… things could change… he can be a great husband and father because he can do it for 45 days straight. He was confident that his gracious gift of 45 days of co-habitation would provide me enough fuel to last for another 6 months of 20-min of skype on sundays (enforced by me). If God forbid I complained about wanting a man, a husband, the attention, the support, he would start bringing the global world problems and shaming me for this pettiness while children were dying in Africa and Syria. All the while resorting back to his jungle full of other prey. The OW1 is the soul-mate. The love of his life. The married bitch cheating on her husband with multiple younger lovers. There were so many other OWs, I don’t even know the exact count – does it really matter?

      He told me once “Each man should have 3 women: the one he loves, the one he marries and the one he has sex with.” And the chump me at the time thought that he was just making a casual comment, there is nothing really about him because my dear husband has integrity and would never cheat. My dear husband would tell me the truth. Because this is how I would do. And so my dear husband did not want to shutter my little dreams.

      Why do we attract one another? chumps and cheaters?

  • I think a lot of the other women like to believe they have won but they are the default ‘prize’ as 9 times out of 10 the wife has thrown the cheater out with the garbage!

  • Wow. This is such a great article that supports exactly what I’ve started to realize about the OW. I held out hope for about a month that my ex would come to his senses, but he did not. I spent a lot of time focusing on him but after a few interactions with OW after the divorce was final I realize what an absolute loon she is.

    Since they got engaged before the ink was dry on the divorce papers I decided to “be the bigger person” and suggested she and I meet, woman to woman, mother to mother, over a beer to talk about steparenting and other things pertaining to my child. She would make plans to meet, then bail out on them. This happened three times. Her schedule was so busy that the ONLY time she could meet was the morning she knew I was going out of town so I rearranged my travel plans to meet her. She cancelled on me. After the third time I came to my senses and decided I didn’t want to play nice anymore. And besides I was giving her too much power. I honestly felt like she got off on seeing me jump through hoops for her. She loved seeing how much she could get me to do for her. It was all about her comfort level, her schedule, no consideration for mine at all.

    This translates to how she likely interacted with my ex. Ohhh, will you leave your wife for me? Will you take me to your mom’s out of state wedding/family reunion extravaganza only a couple months after separating? Will you block your ex’s phone number so she can’t get in touch with her daughter? Will you give your cats to a shelter? Will you refuse coparenting therapy with your ex? Will you change the date of your daughter’s parent teacher conference without telling your ex and then bring me along in her place?

    My ex does not get a free pass. I hold his fully responsible for his shitty actions, but I think that she’s very manipulative and must have a magical vagina or something.

    • And I have noticed a very consistent patter about how when things are relatively calm between me and my ex all of a sudden they pull some shit to stir the pot. I used to think it was coming from him, but now I think it’s from her. Like she is threatened when things are okay between us and she needs to create some drama and conflict. It’s to the point where I start to feel a little panicky when things are calm because I know something huge is about to wallop me.

      • I call this phenomenon “created crisis.” If thing are going smoothly, disordered people have to create some type of drama. It’s the only way the can feel alive because, in reality, the are nothing more than emotional zombies.

        • I’m trying to get better about not giving them the response that they are craving and just being zen about the crap they pull. I’m taking my daughter to Disneyworld in a couple weeks so I suspect they will do something right before our trip just to try to ruin it for me. Things have been quiet and calm for about a month so I think they are planning something.

          • dont tell them you are taking her to disneyland or any other place. your time is your business.

            • If I take our daughter our of state I do have to tell him and he has to tell me as well. Plus my daughter knows about the trip so she talks about it all the time.

    • I’m pleased to say I have mastered the no contact unless via email about the children thing.
      And that is as gray rock as I can make it.
      He tries to make the kids tell me things about how hard his life is and all I can manage is “well that’s on him now isn’t it?”

      Hope your trip to my backyard is filled with awesome moments Kim.

      • Thanks! I take it you live in Florida? Things have been all business pretty much since we separated. I tried to be “friendly” about our kid, sneding periodic updates, things she liked, pics occassionally, and that backfired so now I am very businesslike. He used to be very hostile, but since I stopped trying to be friendly and started to be very emotionless I’ve noticed he is much more friendly and amicable with me. I think it’s scaring him since he’s never seen me like this before.

  • Bring it to the table, Got 99! We’ve got a big holiday coming on where I do believe most of us will be saying “thank you -God/deity/whatever higher power you subscribe to- for delivering me from that crazy!”

  • Personally, I think it all comes down to an incredibly low sense of self-esteem, fed by a bottomless pit of narcissism. By “winning” a triangulation, they feed their need to know they are the best at whatever it is that they feel is the most lacking about themselves.

    Not my monkey…..

    • oh my giddy aunt. you just reminded me how ghetto girl would stalk my facebook page and then repost some of the shit i posted. i blocked her from like the first month. but she would have her friends look up my page. (i also have an alternate facebook and i can see what see posts). but that was one of them, i posted a picture of not my monkey, not my circus. and of course she posted it too. lol ing about it. i doubt she has the mentality to even understand what that means. she has had a couple of her friends try to friend request me, and had one repost something i posted and tag me in it (i guess because i used to have my page on public) but that backfired on her ugly cousin because all my people jumped to my defense. i just sat there and watched and had the laugh of a lifetime. dumb bitches. i have now blocked all of them and anyone else who is close to it. all his cousins, all her cousins and friends that i know of. my block list is long. but i am making it harder for her to see what i post and now my page is friends only. i dont need that shit.

      • Whore in my situation sent her friend to stalk then H and I in a restaurant. After bomb drop and ex had surprised me with divorce papers the day before my birthday, whore asked same friend to friend me on FB. I didn’t know about whore then. Once I learned of her existence, I came to learn that friend was her bestie. Nice fucking friends.

  • Why do they write this shit. They are sadistic fucks pure and simple.

    They enjoy causing pain. It is a high because nothing else in their voided life feels good to them. The only way they can feel anything is through others.

    Women or men like this are pathetic empty vessels. Soulless cellular structure.

    People who have joy in their lives would find it impossible to do this to another human.

    • Thank you, Calamity, that is such a good point and very comforting to me: People who have joy in their lives would find it impossible to do this to another human. Thank you.

    • CalamityJane, well put! I also think that as much as chumps want to “nice” cheaters into behaving morally, cheaters are being nasty to chumps to intimidate them with the hopes that chumps who are hurt will be silenced (i.e. I hurt my chump so s/he will stop exposing my flawed character traits and I will protect my image).

      Cheaters do lash out to people who dare keeping them accountable. In their head, the story might run something like: “What?! I was wrong, and you are pointing it out? How dare you hurt me like that? Oh wait, you will see how much it hurts when I have to expose how demanding and inattentive to my needs you were… For years! I will show everyone what undeserving spouse you were, and you will never dare speak again of my poor judgement and leaving me because of my mistakes.”

      Cheaters see those who are keeping them honest and accountable as the biggest threat to their ego and image management. And of course, as chump spouses, we are the ones with the most power to tell the real story of who they really are. Most of us have been covering up to protect our shy forest creatures for years.

      Once we chumps leave, we have to remember that we gain an immense kind of power over our cheaters. We remained honest, and have proof that they did not. The poor sausage cheaters realize that and use raging at their chump and being set on making them as miserable as possible because in the cheater’s twisted mind, they are “defending” their bruised ego, they are saving themselves from that angry/bitter bunny who dares turning their “mistakes” into consequences.

      This is why CL and CN are so key to chump recovery, this is why OW/OM and our cheaters target us in the nastiest ways… Because in the end, we have the upper hand, we grow from adversity, they simply can’t.

      • YES, YES, YES!!! This is it. This is the answer and what I have been thinking all along. It’s because I keep him accountable. Him and his whore and they can’t stand it!

  • “Because no person, who truly loves you, would make you compete for their love.”

    THIS 100%!!!

    No contact. No dancing. No thank you.

  • Absolutely correct Bozzle123!!!

    And interestingly enough, as soon as I tossed satan to the curb so did his ow…???

    We win, we just don’t recognize it as such at first.

  • I got an inside look into what my husband did to his whores husband. My husband would stand out on the porch in his underwear with his morning cup of coffee when the Dad would pick up his sons…my husband would high five the boys as they walked passed him. I gagged at this vision. Another time my husband walked up to his whores husband at an elementary football game and asked the husband to repeat what he called him… the whores Hubby said “I called you a P#$$&.” With that my husband sucker punched him in the face, breaking his nose. My husband got chased and the cops called. He got arrested. He has a lovely mug shot on My husband told my daughters “I would do it again for the woman I love.” Hmmmm yet when a teen boy called our daughter a whore to her face…..did nothing. I called that boys mother and demanded he come to my house and say it to my face. She dragged him to my home to apologize. My husband didn’t even get off the couch to defend his own daughter’s honor.
    I used to wonder what the hell he saw in her, her lifestyle…..she is polar opposite of me and what our marriage was about. Obviously, she screws married men and ruins families….that isn’t my style.
    Now I see she was available, willing to destroy me, and a hole….pick one, she bragged to me how she is better at her oral skills than me. Clap…clap…. good for you. Hope you get a STD down your throat.
    My husband is proud of what he’s done, he parades her around like he won a prize. It’s sickening. In the end, when the ink is dry and I take 60% of the estate and 60 % of his retirement, and he is in debt a half million dollars with less than 200 K to retire with at 57…..and 3 young sons to take care of now….. I will see Karma in all her glory blazing like the sun….on the beach….like the ending of Shawshank Redemption ( thanks for the reference)

    • Yes, the economic Karma is awesome when it works your way and hurts the cheater. My cheater just complained the other day of how indebted he is and what a struggle every month is to make ends meet. I have fantasized that the OW gets pregnant, so he has to move in with her and pay for their kid, while paying for ours and the one the OW has. That makes him fully indebted, with a mortgage, four kids to take care of and a rented apartment. With me, he never had to worry about money (i make more than he does) we had plenty to travel and save for the future and to enjoy our little luxuries. Now I am sure he cannot even invite the whore to dinner! Great way to resolve a midlife crisis (if there is such a thing!).

  • “Narcissists prefer kibbles to love.” If there is one truth my experience has taught me, it is this one. When I first found myself among the chumped, I had great difficulty understanding or accepting this fundamental principle. How could anyone want kibbles more than love? Isn’t love the one thing every person seeks? But love, true love, requires a measure of selflessness and sacrifice. It requires commitment and honesty. It carries with it the recognition that there is something more important than self.

    Kibbles require nothing. Kibbles are pop tarts; tasty, but completely lacking in any nutritional value. Kibbles do not require self-examination, nor do they require one to put the needs of others first. Kibbles give the illusion of greatness, without any requirement that one actually accomplish anything. People who value kibbles over love are hollow inside. They are incapable of doing the work necessary to maintain a healthy, long-term relationship.

    One of the most difficult things for me to accept was that my X preferred kibbles to love. I had no difficulty accepting that the OW was a kibble seeker. She was a walking billboard of every trite OW cliche I have read about here. X, on the other hand, had packaged his need for kibbles differently. He was always helping others and I was proud of him for doing so, until I realized it allowed him to always be the hero, the knight in shining armor; the folks he helped were a steady source of kibbles for him. When I realized it was more important to him to be worshipped than loved, I knew our marriage was over. There was nothing I was going to be able to do to make him choose selfless love over selfish admiration. I do not know whether he ever was capable of love. I do know that, by the time he began cheating on me, love was the last thing on his mind.

    • “There was nothing I was going to be able to do to make him choose selfless love over selfish admiration. I do not know whether he ever was capable of love. I do know that, by the time he began cheating on me, love was the last thing on his mind.”

      That hits the nail on the head right there Violet.

    • “He was always helping others and I was proud of him for doing so, until I realized it allowed him to always be the hero, the knight in shining armor; the folks he helped were a steady source of kibbles for him. When I realized it was more important to him to be worshipped than loved, I knew our marriage was over.”

      MINE TOO!!!!

      It wasn’t until I read Tracy’s column on kibbles that I got it, really understood why he would help friends, neighbors, even strangers but not help me. Aside form my thank your there was no glory in helping his wife, to everyone else that’s just him doing what he was supposed to. No kibbles=no help.

  • I can’t explain the difference between why OW seem to be generally more openly aggressive about affairs than OM. Maybe it’s because OW seem to be so much more emotionally invested in the outcome of the affair than an OM typically is (an assumption by me based on what I’ve read about affairs). OM are generally just there for the sex it seems — while OW seem to be planning a “life” with your spouse. If the affair goes south, the OM generally just brushes it off and will just go find another woman. For whatever reason though, it’s not as easy for an OW to just move on, so they vent — whether it be at the BS, their social circle, or out into social media.

  • I believe they didn’t get the empathy chip implanted.

    They seem smart/put together/professional, but when you look closer you can see they have the emotional intelligence of an 8 year old. Just watch an 8 year boast and dance “I WIN!!!, YOU lose.” How can they not see how this might affect another person? How can they not put themselves in another person’s shoes? How can they not respect your boundaries? They can’t and they don’t care. “I win!”

    Tracy, love this: — The more disordered you are, the harder you dance. It’s Riverdance for Kibbles. This is true for chumps too. No healthy person competes for another’s love.

    • Some people made comments about how my Ph.D. husband appeared to have the emotional capacity of a 13-year-old. After reading some of his journal writings, my counselor said they were emotionless. She said his sole focus in life was acquisition. She thought it was possible he was a highly functioning autistic. Definitely gave me food for thought.

      • Lyn, Yup high functioning Aspergers. My soon to be X is a physician and in counseling the therapist kept saying, no that’s a thought, what about a feeling. I truly think they don’t have the emotional capacity for intimacy or a long term reciprocal relationship. Mine even said he just cannot give emotionally. He was into acquisitions as well. A wealthy, highly educated wife, a custom estate, but he was never happy. He just got more and more grumpy as his affairs ramped up, of course I didn’t know what was going on at the time. Perhaps there is comfort in the fact that they well never change but we will grow from this shitshow.

  • I could be wrong… but it seems women can be very snarky…. when it comes to other women. And women seem to be more concerned in general about how they look. So that being said, the competition thing does fit in. They beat another woman out and have to gloat. Guys not so much. They may brag about a conquest but do not seem to rub someones nose in it. Women seem to wonder what did she look like… or what did you talk about vs. us guys who are on such a low level we wonder was his bigger!!!!

  • It would seem a lot of us shunned the Pick Me dance and just filed. I did. I think, or suspect that is one of the reasons the ex is so angry. Truthfully from the moment I found out who he was screwing, Iost all respect for him. Wanted nothing to do with him.

    Truthfully, I have reinforced a NC. She doesn’t have the nerve to contact me. But if they marry she might. I won’t respond. She doesn’t deserve any of my time nor does he.

    I quite coolly said ‘everyone deserves to be happy’. Let’s get a divorce. He of course cries the big crocodile tears.

    He is an incredibly effeminate man. I suspect deep down he hates women, has lots of conflict over his feelings. Very screwed up internally. Never reflects on his life. Objectifies women via porn.

    That has become an acid test for me for a new guy. If he is unwilling to examine his own behavior he is some sort of psycho because he doesn’t like what he sees.

    But I filed and off I went. Sold the house, moved out and never really looked back. I have never felt myself missing him. Never thought of what I ‘lost’. Because all the giving was done by me; all the taking by him. Now I do all the giving to me, my friends and family who deserve it.

    She can have him, nasty habits and all. Oh, and he can help with her kids. Those kids I feel sorry for.

    Mine, adult, find their father utterly disgusting. As do our friends.

    For anyone, don’t play the pick me dance. Neither of these psychopaths can appreciate who you are or they wouldn’t have hooked up in the first place.

  • Chump Lady, there is no “competition,” it was “divine providence.” The OW or OM realizes that they are a divine creature who is self-endowed with the undeniable right to create their own world wherein they are worshiped and adored by the people who seek them out (“lured” and “tempted” have such negative connotations) so that these divine creatures can fulfill their enlightenment, feel all-powerful and endure in a world of fragile and stupid mortals. Why should such a good and delicate being deny their own divinity? They just want to be loved…

    Sorry, it was hard to keep typing while I vomited.

    OK, where was I? Oh, yeah — people who create a world for themselves where they are divine; I think there’s medication for that.

    I remember a saying in the Navy that applies, it’s “Misery loves company.”

    • OMG Justin, I almost snorted coffee out my nose. Yes it is hard to keep typing while vomiting!

  • I’m the adult child of a serial cheater- he got caught, got his ass handed to him & took off with the affair partner to the other side of the country.
    Now that he’s got tons of awesome grandkids and many grand nieces and nephews he’s singing a sad song.
    He sees everyone once a year.. alone. His mistress was banned from ever setting foot near a member of our very tight knit Sicilian New York family.
    So there is a depressing ending for all those people that thought the clandestine object of their affection would fulfill all their dreams and hopes.
    You die alone, in a dusty southwestern town, with the woman who now drives you insane- while your boisterous fun loving extended family thrives.

    • Same here Pine Barrens, except we are a large rambunctious Napolitano family (and live in PA close enough to NJ to vacation every summer at the Jersey Shore with children, grandparents, cousins, etc.) Ex left all the support, food, conversation, family, holidays, and love for one of his group sex partners who he married this past summer. She is as sick as he is and they have only a small and ever-shrinking circle of strange friends along with her dysfunctional mother and her 2 sons (who she left behind with her now-ex husband to finally be with my husband after I learned of their 17-year “affair”). Our 3 children find him disgusting and ex has lost them all. Ex also lost all but one of his former friends, and had to move 5 states away to be with AP as he had literally nowhere else to go once I kicked him out and divorced him.

      Let’s see, big happy supportive extended family, community support, 3 beautiful and loving children, or, alone with a cabal of cluster B types. I’ll choose…..door number 2 of course (said the sociopath).

  • “Love is not Caesar in the colosseum giving the thumbs up or the thumbs down if you live or die.” That sentence made me just so sad. That’s just what it was like for me, and Caesar gave me a thumbs down, and I did die for about a year. I’ve picked myself up (ran my first 5K on Sunday and it/I was awesome) but man! When will I be over it? It still hurts so much. Anyway, thanks for another well-written and on-point post!

    • Awww Fifi honey …. please let me give you a big cyber hug [ ].

      Grief hurts … and hurts for a long time. When we are bereaved of someone we love, we normally have the memories of their love of us, and the love we shared, to comfort our poor souls. With these nasty, evil people – they not only leave us bereft but they also taint, if not completely destroy, any loving memories we may have had of our time with them – and the biggest bitch of it all – they haven’t even had the good grace to die!

      It takes time to get through the grieving – it’s a process with no time limits – it’ll take as long as it takes. You are clearly dealing well (congrats on the 5K – bloody awesome)! One day you’ll suddenly realise your grief over shitforbrains is no longer centre stage in your mind, and that you can honestly look at that episode in your life with easy detachment. It’s just not yet. But take heart – it proves you love deeply, it proves you are normal. Who gets over love attachments quickly? … yep, psychopathic, sociopathic, narcissistic ‘soulless cellular structure’ (ace description CJ 🙂 ).

      Hugs x

      • Wow, Jayne perfect words really perfect. My divorce final is mMonday and I’m still so fucking sad I can’t take it. Asswipe broke up with his ho.he won’t go back to her. She’s tap dancing not working. His sister called me to ask to visit both me and as swipe together he’s pissed she didn’t did it the right way by informing him first so he could decide what we would do. Motherfucker!!!!! He bitched about blood siblings. Didn’t do it the right way. He told our son in a fast conversation. I kinda sorta moved out boy not with mom anymore no reason just ain’t. My son comes to me for questions. Asswipe says no ones business what he does. Screw everybody they will find out when they find out. Tough. Tells our daughter nothing I had to call her, his blood sister nothing told him to call her several times nothing zip Nada, I had to call her before thanksgiving to tell her before she called that day and found out on the holiday. None of her business he said. I didn’t want to ruin her holiday we are close. So I told her. For over two years this bastard has barely communicated with either his daughter son or sister. He told the boy knowing he wouldn’t cry or yell. The woman he didn’t want to hear crying or bitching. I encouraged all to call and text him constantly but he rarely responded and they kinda gave up trying. Now he’s out of the affair fog he’s eenraged they talk to me too much they shouldn’t tell me anything. They should tell him first and he will tell me. What the fuck is wrong with him???!!! Should have done it the right way!!! How about telling me you had issues and started lying and cheating plus giving my shit away to that whore. How about ending one relationship before starting another. How about doing the least amount of harm by being truthful. He’s enraged they are not doing it the right way!!!!! FUCK HIM, THE HYPOCRITICAL FUCKING DOUBKE STANDATD BASTARD!

        • He thinks he texted and called them constantly he didn’t he remembering wrong to build his own ego and says I’m crazy and turning them against. Couldn’t be farther from the truth. He couldn’t be bothered til he was. I begged him not to ignore them begged him. He was too busy with the ho. Again all my fault.

          • Hugs Kar marie [ ] 🙂

            Firstly, though I know it hurts like hell on earth – congratulations on the divorce becoming final on Monday. I know at the moment it doesn’t look like something to celebrate, because of the grief and pain and bloody downright injustice, but, straight off – you no longer need to be a part of his hypocritical fucking double standards! Hurrah! He can go live in the LaLaLand of delusion and insanity, and get his knickers in a twist because people are not playing by his rules – and Kar marie – you are now free of it – you don’t have to pick up the toys he throws out of his pram – you don’t even have to care! Whoop! Whoop!

            Secondly, You do know these tantrums he’s throwing are classic ‘Narco-shite’ as per lesson one in ‘Narco-spotting For Beginners’ room 2b – right? Nothing like people not putting them central stage and dancing to their tune to piss a Narco right off – Power – its all about the power. And Kar marie – you’re free of that one too – more hurrah!

            Thirdly, Of the stages of grief, I’ve personally found the Anger stage the most helpful to move me forward out of the grief – so it’s good to see you are angry as all hell. You’ve every right to be angry. He’s blame-shifting and pulling all the same disordered shit that fucked this up in the first place – and you don’t have to put up with that crap one second longer. You’re divorced (soon to be) so why the fuck should you be responsible for how his relationships with other human beings go? (Not that it was ever your responsibility even when you were married). Nah – bollocks to that. While anger helped me move forward it’s great to get to the stage where you can look at the stuff they do that makes you angry and just laugh at how pathetic and infantile and obviously fucked up they are. Who gives a shit that he’s pouting cos his sister talked to you first? Or that his children, needing some truth from somewhere, had to hear it from you cause he hadn’t the balls to do it? He’s not the centre of the universe and Kar marie – you are free of being punished for that (and that’s what they do folks – give us hell cos the universe isn’t structured around them – and it’s our fault)!

            Stay angry to stay focussed. Laugh at the idiot, eventually pity the sad excuse for a man who never got beyond 3 years old in his emotional development.

            Hugs x

            • Thank you everyone, this thread helps a lot. AllOutOfKibble, Jayne, Kar marie, thank you. Jayne, I’ll take that cyber-hug. You write with a British accent! I like your style, lady. Kar marie, stay strong and know you’re on the way to something better. With kids and family involved, you have a lot to deal with, so don’t forget to take care of YOU.

  • Boy Chumplady, your columns of late have really helped me. It has occurred to me how we chumps are often not just taken advantage of in romantic relationships.. but we are also taken advantage of in other relationships as well. Family members, friends, bosses.. all tend to take advantage of chumps because at the heart, we are people pleasers and we tend to try to keep everyone happy all the time. Which ends up making things worse (think triangulation) and we end up miserable. We are often the go betweens, the peacemakers, the deal brokers, the planners. We are the ones that carry it all on our backs and truthfully, no one appreciates it.

    When I look back on it, I’ve been doing this codependent dance for my entire life. First, I did the pick me dance with my mother, who was never satisfied (still isn’t), and who always found fault with my dancing. (She wonders how I ended up with a narcissistic H.. HELLO?) Then I did it with friends, not always, but I often chose friends who were looking for someone to manipulate because I had learned from an early age to “please” and thus I was easy to mold. Then I did it in romantic relationships.. and later, in business, etc. I always did what everyone expected of me, always stayed inside the lines, I never stood up for myself, and I still don’t. Just this week, I am dealing with family members who want me to visit for Thanksgiving.. so they can pick apart my marital decisions, my parenting decisions, my career decisions. Why the hell would I do that? To make them happy. I am obligated, it’s what we chumps do. We show up, we bring the pies, and we take our medicine.

    One of the great things about this journey for me is that I’ve learned this about myself and it’s awoken a sleeping giant inside newchump. Newchump is through taking any shit off of anyone. Whether it be a spouse, a parent, a child, a friend, a boss, or the UPS guy. Newchump is no longer open for business to those people who want to manipulate and use. Newchump cuts those people OUT. Thank you Chump Lady and CN for helping me realize how I can change to be a better person in the future. And hopefully go forward looking to make MYSELF happy for a change.

    • Can SO relate! I am at 2 years cheater-free, and thus his mindfuck that I am worth less, and need to do all the bending. I am slowly learning the lessons that I do not have to accommodate absolutely everyone, everywhere. I got a new job this summer, and I decided to be different now. It’s going pretty well. For example, I just had my second performance review, and my supervisor said several negative things. I know I am not imagining-she is a narc, or something very like it. Of course, the Universe has to keep throwing them in my way!
      At the end of the review, this is what I said – Actually, I think I am doing fantastic! I had a few problems at first, but that is normal in a new job, and I am continuously producing high-quality work. I love it here!
      You should have seen her face! She tried to make me feel uneasy, but no go, Baby! I need this job, and I am being aggressive to make it work. I have also started asking for specific days I need off, something I used to be afraid to do.
      It’s a ongoing project, to stop being a Chump, but it’s nice to see progress.
      I’m also using these ideas in my private life, and people do respect me more, when I stop catering to their every need. I look out for my needs first now, so I am happy and healthy, and they come second!

  • To me, these letters and articles are a way to publicly “excuse” themselves for what they know is deplorable behavior. By saying the affair “God’s Plan,” or “true love” of “he seduced me, I didn’t seduce him” then it is not “their fault.” They claim to be acting on some cosmic plan – and consequently do not have to own up to who they really are: a person with questionable morals, low self esteem and extremely poor self control.

  • One of the worst parts of my relationship was that feeling of finding myself at the center of a competition that I didn’t know existed. Ex was one of those who, in addition to cheating, also had a perpetual entourage/rotating cast of adoring women friends. This was in fact the pool of women from which he drew his cheating partners. But this competitive dynamic was even there with women in his life that he wasn’t sleeping with. For a long time, I couldn’t understand the covert hostility and passive aggression that I got from a lot of the women friends in social situations. When I think about it now, though, he always seemed to befriend women with the following traits:

    – insecure
    – little to no boundaries
    – *extremely* competitive
    – didn’t get along with other women

    • Skank Woman did not have ONE friend in the entire world. She worked here for 17 years and NEVER made a friend. Hmmm…wonder why? Maybe women know intuitively when some skank will fuck your husband. She said she never made friends here because she didn’t want to ever be part of the gossip and the clicks. Then she fucks a married man where she works! Oh and the gossip started wow- can-you-believe-that?? Disordered Pig.

    • Yes. This! STBX was loved and adored by women I thought were my friends. And I struggled and struggled with their lack of boundaries. I would beg him to figure out why no one was acting that way toward the rest of our male friends. Seriously, we would go to dinner parties and the women would playfully fight about who got to sit by him. No one even paid attention to where I ended up…and I am not a shrinking violet. I was in local politics, and state boards and had a prominent profession. On D day, I left that town and haven’t returned. But I don’t think I truly understood the toxicity and dysfunction of our social group until last week, when one of the women posted a picture of him and some of my other former female friends mugging for the camera at a cocktail party. Seeing it hurt like hell, but that one picture exposed all of them for exactly what they are…a bunch of insecure narcissists who just thought I was in the way. For the first time in three years, I knew I would never choose to go back to that.

      • Michelle–I often get stuck on the fact that so many people “sided” with my ex, who is a total covert Boy Scout- type narcissist. OW is an alpha female narc, and loves to be the center of attention. My ex eats it up.

        What I never understood is how and why people dont see through them. After reading what you wrote, I realized that’s because they are also narcissists! Either that, or they’re the type who would be perfect chumps themselves since they “don’t want to choose sides” and love being in the limelight with them.

        I also left Dodge and started over. It’s really the only way to get to mighty–which clearly you are tenfold.

  • Great post. A little over two years ago. Asswipe found nookie, fell in love with it, left me for it and one and half years later decided he loved us both but wanted to come home to me. Dumb ass that I am. I let him. Two months later he’s doing the pick me dance for ow she shots him down. He stops doing pick me. She finds out we are really getting divorced and she does pick me dancing that is sickening. Invites for dinner, sex texts, alluring photos and all the remember when’s? How much fun they had, how absolutely perfect they are together? Come see me it can be more better than before. I know you will never cheat on me. AGAIN! what an ass she is. Me, I’m laughing my ass off. He tells me this shit. She’s after me, she won’t leave me be. She’s everywhere….. He’s lost it for her but she keeps trying and trying. He ashed me what I thought. My answer grasping at straws she is. And she’s furious that through all this he’s still in love with me and has lost feelings for her. He knows she’s putting on an act and pulling out all the tricks but she’s not giving up. Win at all costs!!!! Me I actually find this amusing! Now for me, I never picked me danced once, not once after my initial how could you, crying, motherfucker, weight loss heartbreak, I settled in to reality, got a bit better and I’m different now, I learned a lot. I let me leave with a clear mind, go motherfucker, go have different, you don’t want me fine. You known me thirty years, my ways, who I am, you find something better fucking go. Never begged him to stay, never asked him back, never treated him mean except to remind him you don’t tell me what to do. I never ever did the pick me dance. I watched her do the force him away from his wife dance twice and pick me dance once. This second round of pick me dancing is hilarious!!!! She using her dying, biological father, non grand babies and her fun fun family and friends as bait. I will grant him credit, he knows exactly what she’s is trying to do, he told her, not gonna work and she’s trying even harder, money, trips, sex, anything. He told her he’s lost those feelings for her and of course she blames me. The non pick me dancer. If only karmarie hated you or tried to shoot you or died or ran away or something then they could be happy. Then he could forget everything but her. Every guy she’s ever been with short, long term, married didn’t matter cheated on her. But me its my fault. What an ass!

    • Wow well said. I kicked mine out along with throwing a glass of wine against the wall during our reconciliation when I realized he wanted me to tap dance and be part of a triangle. I have enough self esteem to realize I shouldn’t have to compete for his love. During the reconciliation he kept saying to me “I am feeling that I want to stay 50% or 60% and then it would drop to 40%” hahaha. The OW gets a thrill out of texting me (as him but I know its her because of the exclamation marks) and gloating. I did go to her place of work though and tell everyone what she did so she is scared of me know…. more hahahahahaha.

      Anyway this is the best description of the OW psychology that I have found. Thank you!!!!!!

      Oh follow up…. I met a really incredible man and am finally learning about what relationship should feel like.

  • I really needed to see this today. I think I have advanced to the professional circuit in the Pick Me Dance tournament. Someone told me yesterday to remember I’m not a relief pitcher, I’m a starter.

    Basically my husband has told me he wants to try and work it out with his China doll, otherwise it just proves he is a quitter. In the same email he said he believes this relationship will end as abruptly as it began and doesn’t know what this means for us (I’m his wife of 26 years until BD on my birthday late last year). He wants to continue on with our divorce, but is still open to discussions regarding reconciliations. I guess I’ve been benched until he calls me into the game. My husband is a loon!

    She is a mail order bride who is still married to the man who brought her here, she doesn’t have her citizenship, her husband has a restraining order out against her (she threatened to kill him). Her and my husband live together along with her 80 year old mother who doesn’t speak English and she owns a massage parlor. He told me he likes the way she treats him, he feels special. He told me earlier this week he KNOWS she is crazy! He talks to me more now than all of last year. He acts like we are BFF. He has a seat at the AYCE cake buffet.

    I love my husband and it is going to be extremely hard, but I need to work on NC. I’m trying to save him. I need to save myself.

    Thanks for your words of wisdom and wonderful sense of humor.

    • Consider this your NC encouragement should you need the reminder.
      You don’t start to heal and see things for what they really are until NC is enforced for a few months. Even that is just the tip of the iceberg.
      Unlace those dancing shoes, kick em off and pop them in the garbage can.
      Save yourself Lisa, save yourself.

    • Some of these guys, and gals, make me SO ANGRY. The entitlement.. as if.. he can just expect you to be there when the relationship with the skank falls apart.

      Uh, NO.

      Serve this fool papers and let him shake in his boots. Damn. That just pisses me off. She makes him feel “special”.. I wonder how interested she’ll be once you clean him out for 50% of his assets.

      NC NC NC.. and call a lawyer. You are mighty.

    • Lisa,

      He needs both of you. One for sex the other for conversation. He is in the perfect place. You are keeping him there being his BFF.

      He doesn’t want to be saved. He wants to eat cake.

      No contact is the only way you win this tug of rope. Let go and watch him fall down.

    • Her mother owns a massage parlour, eh? So, her daughter is one of the hired skanks?
      That takes the (snarky but morbidly awful) adage ‘The family who bonks together stays together’ to a whole new level.

  • Great post as always CL! Although I never did the pick me dance after DDay, I realize that I was doing it non-stop throughout our entire marriage. I know I was a good wife to him, and his family and friends would always comment, “why can’t I find a woman like her”! I worked for his company for 8 yrs, took care of his mother in our home for 3 months after her stroke ( I will always love her ), decorated her apartment at the assisted living home for her which became the “model home” for visitors, and then did the same for her sister who moved there also at my encouragement a few years after. I took them both to their Dr.’s appointments, decorated their places for the holidays each year, filled their pillboxes on time and they loved and appreciated me for doing so. But it wasn’t enough for my STBX. Neither was the beautiful home I had worked hard at with all the remodeling and decorating. Neither was being the perfect cook, maid and hostess. Basically I waited on him hand and foot. But that’s kind of who I am, or was. And he would throw a few crumbs my way every now and then. Maybe I made his narcissist self believe that he was indeed so fabulous that he deserved a harem on the side as well.

    DDay was the discovery of his dates with prostitutes that had been going on for awhile. But I know there is a OW out there, somewhere. He wouldn’t have just walked out the door and refused to speak to me since May if there wasn’t. But he’s keeping her a secret ( like his whole life has been apparently ) for a reason. And I know that reason is his adult sons. They are the only people on the planet that he truly does care about, or maybe it’s more “his possessions”. But his oldest son, my step-son who also loves me, told me that he told him…”Don’t ever bring one of your girlfriends around me, or I’ll tell you to go fuck yourself.” That would get his attention, not loosing me, but loosing him.

    I would love to get a whacked out email or phone call from the skank, would welcome it with open arms. It would be the perfect icing on the cake ( ha, pun intended ) for the upcoming deposition. She would get a special invitation to join us and watch the slide show of all the others he found while dumpster diving while he was proclaiming his love for her. I’ll bring the popcorn.

  • Ew. I haven’t gotten any personal correspondence from the OW, though I don’t completely rule it out as a possibility in the future. That said, she—AND HER MOTHER—posted multiple albums of the new happy soul mates (OW was also married and poofed on her husband) a mere three or four months after I got the bomb dropped on me. And this while residents in a state that requires a 12-month separation, so she posted these things—with him tagged, for all his and my friends and family to see—wayyyyy before any of us were actually divorced.

  • Question…..My 20th wedding anniversary with STBX is tomorrow. I’ve been thinking of the appropriate message to send. He left me and our two kids for his AP back in June of this year. She is the wife of a client (he’s in remodeling construction). I called her husband as soon as I found out. He and I are now great friends – we talk daily. We both did the pick me dance for 2 months while we were all “working on our marriages”. Come to find out they were only working on their relationship. Any suggestions? I haven’t found a Hallmark card for this one yet.

    • I think there are some hilarious ecards out there, but I think for these types the best thing is to not even acknowledge it. If the goal is to annoy them a little, I feel like nothing will annoy the narc more than the chump he expects to keep doing the Pick Me Dance to not even acknowledge something like that.

      I wasn’t married as long as you, but our anniversary is coming up soon, too. I think this is the route I’m going to go.

      • I agree. Nothing disappoints and surprises them more than trying to figure out why you Just. Don’t. Care. NC NC NC

    • Do nothing, say nothing. Never even acknowledge the date. That is the strongest message you can send.

      • I agree – FWIW, this year, the anniversary of my wedding date to cheating STBXW came very shortly after she had moved out (some of you might recall that she did this while I was away on business, with no advanced warning, and taking whatever property she wanted without any discussion with me whatsoever… to the point of not leaving me a bed…). I was pretty busy on that day, if I remember correctly, and it didn’t even really register with me. Not saying it’s total “meh” but it never even crossed my mind to contact her on that date. In fact, it didn’t even cross my mind what she would think if I did / didn’t contact her on that date. I honestly just didn’t give a shit about the date, it’s completely meaningless now. What I WILL celebrate is the date my divorce is finalized, which unfortunately appears to be… not soon. 😛

        • I agree, Sephage–the anniversary date is completely meaningless now. But know what isn’t? Today–my one year anniversary of filing!! Best gift I ever gave myself.

  • I suspect that the reason so many more OW than OM gloat over their infidelity via emails/texts to chumps or drivel on HuffPo is that a lot of these women truly feel like nothing without a man. But they are not satisfied with their own husband because love that is secure doesn’t “count.” They need the thrill of victory, the excitement of stealing someone else’s man, the delusion that “our love is so powerful, he was willing to destroy his family for me.” That’s what makes them feel whole. They are incapable of feeling like complete human beings on their own. And they must broadcast their “victory” at every opportunity to emphasis their bottom line… they have a man, regardless of what it took to get him, and so they are desirable women.

    IMHO, the majority of male cheaters are there for the sex and the excitement of the chase. They mouth the obligatory “I love you” to the OW to get her to spread her legs, nothing more. There’s no need for them to gloat, because that doesn’t provide any gain and it’s not worth the risk.

    And of course, disordered of either gender are empty on the inside and chronically bored, so require outside stimulation just to feel alive.

  • I think a lot of OW really are sad, pitiful, regretful types. Many of them were raised with cheater fathers, and they grew to think that that was normal. “Everyone cheats” because Dad cheats. And in that situation, who does the young daughter identify with? With her mother, who gets devalued every day? Does the young woman want to be the eater-of-shit-sandwiches? Or be in the more powerful position of “other woman” who gets all the fun, and her father’s attention?

    I’m not saying this to encourage us to pity the other woman, i’m saying it because its critical to remember when you think about how to respond to adultery, and disrespect. Do you want to model that to your daughters? Get out, get a life and be a role model for your daughters. Don’t spend her childhood pick-me dancing, because it will just set her up for a life where she thinks its normal to have to erase yourself in order to be loved.

    • I don’t know it for sure, but I really, really thing that something like this is true for “my” OW, only possibly with the mom running off rather than the dad. The fact that she immediately blasted pics of her also-married self and my stbx was bad enough, but when her mother did it? There’s some weird shit going on there when mom is not only endorsing what her daughter’s doing, but parading it around too.

    • To me the OW are typically the types who have screwed around most if their lived and have NO morals. They want what looks good to them and a man with a family attracts them. They want what you have but were never willing to work for.

    • Its not FOO which causes this shit – its disorder which causes this shit. And that shit is hard-wired.

      • Agree completely. My asshat’s first skank and I had very similar childhoods–cheating fathers, stepparent abuse, disconnected mothers, etc.–yet I don’t jump into bed with other women’s husbands. I didn’t become a stalking, pill-popping, doing a quickie in the car so his wife doesn’t find out skank.

        Integrity and character mean a great deal to me as a result of my childhood (my parental figures taught me what NOT to do). There is nothing particularly special about me except that I decided that it really sucks to be hurt so badly by another human, so there was no way in hell that I would cause that pain to another person.

        Though, if someone hurts me intentionally, I tend to go for the proverbial jugular in response. Justice means a lot to me too. My stbs’s skanks learned that the hard way. (Always within the law, though!)

        • I had a cheating father. And I want absolutely nothing to do with him for the rest of my life. Period.

          • Sure, not every child of a cheating parent becomes a cheater. And not every abused child becomes an abuser. But it is much more frequent in that population. And that makes it that much more important for us to get out of these destructive relationships, and model mighty rather than normalizing the abuse.

            • I think the last sentence is key. I always thought that my stbx’s acknowledgment of his parents’ various issues, and the fact that he would say that he never wanted to divorce or be like his parents, was enough. Only now after the fact have I understood that it takes a lot more than that—it takes a little bit of self-awareness to recognize what you haven’t learned and what tools you don’t have. Since stbx has the self-awareness of a potato, here I am.

  • The OW in my case came sniffing for the EX before my last child was born, which means there was approximately 20 years between her first unsuccessful attempt and the one that was successful. She had just divorced her first husband was looking up all of the boys/now men with which she had grown up supposedly to just see what was “going on with everyone.” The EX and she had spent some of their early years growing up together, but they had not been boyfriend/girlfriend. I had met many people with whom he had grown up, quite a few of them female, and they had all been gracious and good people and all showed me the kindness and respect you would show someone’s wife. She had two children from her first marriage and initially started spending time with us because we had a daughter (my daughter from a previous relationship) about the same age as her children. I will never know if they slept together then – I have my suspicions – but she eventually married another man about six months after meeting him. I had given birth to my last child by then and she became pregnant by her second husband.

    The second husband’s mother never liked her and problems in the marriage arose when she realized that she was never going to be able to get his mother to like her and she kept attempting to manipulate him into choosing her over his mother. She routinely called and sought out the EX to cry on his shoulder and talk about her marital problems. Sometime during all of this, she called him and arranged to come over to cook dinner at my home. She never discussed it with me and he presented it to me as something to which he had already agreed. That is when I realized she was still auditioning to be his wife even though she was married and pregnant by her second husband. I never wanted to go around her, but she and EX kept making “family dates.” An incident occurred which caused the EX to break off or limit contact with her and I have not spoken to or laid eyes on her since that day. It was only later that he told me (he was always telling me about women who were attracted to him – I now know why) that she had once asked him if I would mind sharing him with her.

    Fast forward 20 something years, she has not only divorced her second husband, but she has become a minister and divorced her third husband. All of our children are grown, there’s already been one incident with a prior in-your-face OW with Asshole McCheezy-Cheater and Jesus Cheater Whore and EX make contact near the finalization of her divorce from the third husband (she took up with third husband while finalizing the divorce from the second husband – her third husband appeared to also have been married when she met him). Three months after I move out of the house (because they are in the throes of a passion that cannot be denied), she comes to my home (from another state where she now resides), sleeps in my bed with the EX (to whom I am obviously still married) with my oldest son still living in the home and proceeds to conduct herself as if she has always lived there. Prior to that, she had gone with the EX to my youngest child’s school (college) on that child’s birthday, where I had just been with EX approximately 3 months prior, and attempts to introduce herself as that child’s mother. She and EX attempt to double date with our oldest (my child from a prior relationship) and her husband. My daughter asks him if he has lost his mind and to never ask her that again. After meeting my third child for only the second time, she asks him and his girlfriend when they are going to start having babies so that she can have more grandchildren (my son later told his father that his children would NOT be her grandchildren). A friend of hers who supposedly was to assist the same son with some job leads proceeds to tell him that he should “like her because she’s a good person.”

    This crazy, demented, disordered, shit-for-brains, contemptible, malicious and totally without scruples or morals sad excuse for a human not only wanted the EX, but she wanted to completely erase my existence as ever having been in his life. He has attempted to assist her as she controls the purse strings and the lifestyle – thus controls him. I can only assume that’s what he likes and hold him completely responsible for all of it. She can’t do anything he doesn’t allow or encourage her to do. My children, however, have not cooperated as they actually recognize that I am not a replaceable cog in some machinery, but I’m actually their mother. I finally realized that the only way she can assure herself that he is really committed to her is for him to prove it by crushing me and allowing her to participate.

    I needed these posts to give me some perspective, as they both continue to re-write history and attempt to write me out of it completely. They are 2 sick fucks who deserve each other.

    • I’m so happy your kids are grown. I have the same variety of OW. She wants to pretend like I don’t exist and never have. My ex and I have joint custody of a 4 year old. It’s pretty damn impossible to pretend like I don’t and have never existed.

      OW and Ex even went to my daughter’s preschool, changed the time of her parent teacher conference, didn’t tell me, and showed up to it like they were her parents. OH HELL NO.

      • OH HELL NO is correct! WTF! I want to beat them up on your behalf!

        This is why when people say Chumps are “bitter” they need to be hit in the head with a 2 by 4 and then boiled in oil. People do not even realize the level of restraint that we actually practice. These incursions are such huge indicators of a lack of respect or even minimal courtesy. And these people, along with the people who align themselves with them, would be incensed were someone to do something similar to them. I was telling a friend of mine how the EX blame shifts, gaslights and projects and had done it to me (of course, I didn’t realize it at the time) all during the marriage. She suggested that every time he had done it, I should have punched him in the face. His face would look like play dough by now, but what the hell.

        Maybe if we had all punched these losers in the face each time they abused us, things would have been different or they would have freed us sooner.

  • Like my ex’s skank, the OW in your ex’s life is certifiably crazy. I kind of wish those sick fucks would have found each other in the first place! Except…, I think kids from a not-crazy person and a crazy-person have a much better chance of being normal than kids from two sick-fuck crazy people. Maybe it’s the plan…, bummer. Congratulations for getting them both out of your life.

  • The OW in my case (Skank Woman) was so coy and positively giddy that she landed a man (my husband) She really thought she was something. I found an email XH had written her and told her how HOT she was. Bwahahaha. Believe me when I say the word ‘hot’ and her name had NEVER been used in the same sentence together. She is absolutely hideous.Inside and out. I even asked XH how he could put his dick in that thing and he just smirked and kind of laughed and shrugged.
    My XH could be a mean and shitty drunk so I hope she gets some of that now. I honestly have never hated anyone so much in my life. I just can’t figure out why anyone would put themselves in the position to have someone hate them that bad. It can’t be good juju.

    The joke’s on them now. I’m with a real man who thinks I’m the best thing in the world. One day I said ‘I need to thank XH for leaving me’ my fiancee said, ‘No that’s MY job.’ Screwing someone else’s spouse is just the lowest of the low. Skank Woman would slink off to the No-Tell Motel and take off her skanky clothes and spread her skank legs for a MARRIED man. Eeeeewwwww. May she rot in hell. With him. She would have never dared to contact me. She’s scared to death of me. As well she should be. I just can’t WAIT until the Karma Bus rolls over her mud face.

    • >> My XH could be a mean and shitty drunk so I hope she gets some of that now.

      OMG Syringa are you me?? This is the case for me too, 100%. I have to imagine she might have experienced it by now, and it makes me chuckle to think what must go through her head. If not, I delight in thinking about how she’ll fee the first time she experiences it.

      • stbxigross…Oh you know the OW has seen his mean and shitty drunk side. How can they hide that?? I always wondered if people noticed what an asshole XH was to me when he was drinking. No one ever said anything at the time but afterwards they let me know that they sure as hell did see it. My new man whom I’m going to marry is a delightful drinker. He gets super funny and lovey dovey. And he knows when to stop….he’s ‘clear of eye.’ I guess that’s the difference between a normal drinker and a drunk.
        Oh yeah…OW gets to look at that passed out bald spot now. Or watch him twirl around in the bathroom and break his leg…..

  • This blog touched me as did yesterdays. I got to read years and years worth of emails back and forth with exhubby and OW. I felt happy and in love and secure in my marriage and thought he was my best friend and all that time while I was riding my bike four miles to work and back (while pregnant) so that he could have our one car since he was the stay at home dad with the kids, so he could take our kids to the park he was safe and secure in the knowledge that I couldn’t just pop in at work and bust him so Schmoopie would come over and go through my laundry basket and hold up my pregnancy granny panties and laugh at me. She would go through my home and criticize what I made for dinner via the left overs in the fridge. She would change my baby’s diaper. She was definitely in competition with me from the things she said in those emails and how she wanted my life. She wanted my husband and my daughters and my home and she wanted me to pay for it in alimony and child support. She sent me taunting nasty emails like yesterday’s blog. That was six plus years ago. It took me a long time to get to meh. It took me six years of working two jobs to keep my home and move up in my career field. It’s been six years of raising my three kids alone and having to split Christmas and Easter and other heart breaks but I got to meh and yesterday I googled OW. I found Schmoopie’s blog and her very last entry from just two weeks ago was written from the pysch ward. I didn’t have to peruse very long to find a diagnosis of severe mental disorders, suicidal behaviors, abandonment of her two children with her ex-husband, unemployment, a debitlating stoke, and no social life whatsoever. You could say the kharma bus hit her hard or you could say she still makes the same life choices she made six years ago and I’m in an awesome place People. My picker may still be broken but I am mighty and have only gone up and I can laugh. I didn’t play the Pick me Dance with him, btw. I went to the divorce lawyer Monday morning and I never triangulated or danced for her. What I read in those emails he and she never deleted was so disturbing that I never had visions of reconciliation unicorns in my head. What I did struggle with was “WHY when I was so loving and such a hard working help mate and great mother and felt so happy why did he do that to us” and Chump Lady helped me understand about Kibbles and Entitlement.

    • Congratulations!! Now that lady truly was ‘certifiable’. I’m not yet at the state of ‘meh’, but I’m on the road.

    • Bless your heart, NoWire. You are mighty indeed. It must have hurt like hell reading those emails. I am glad Schmoopie is a broken down psycho from psychville now. And very very glad you got to Meh.

    • You are awesome NoWire! Congrats on living a better life with out those two nut jobs in it!

      • I’m fond of the karma us–and so glad you got to witness it. That’s a bit of justice. But the most important part of your story is that amazing inner strength that you’ve honed to a beautiful finish. Thanks for sharing; and, congratulations on a job well done.

  • Neither of them are deep thinkers. He wanted to get laid as usual and was “dating”. In his drunken stupor with crossed blurry drunk eyes the slunT who slithered up to the bar stool was available. She had just been arrested and had broke into two houses over the past 12 months. And here’s a guy married fir 36 years crying on his beer about his sucky life. They feel like their in an enchanted merrygoround and decide they have a deep crusty cheesy connection. It’s immediate and there’s no looking back. They fuck in my bed, hotels, her bed and it’s magic. She gives him an ultimatum and has to LIVE UP to the LIES. She takes him in her home and fucks a lot and has NO responsibilities. She just has court dates for assault. She’s fugly, bipolar and says she loves him. It’s bliss, yet he doesn’t file and fights for my pension to support a raspy voiced bar whore. It’s all so fucking sexy and she’s willing to degrade ME for pencil dick who has a pump in his balls. She repeatedly blows him to prove her lust and pretends she’s so special he will never cheat on her. Who would want to ruin THAT? She thinks she will slide into my granddaughters and children’s lives as if I deserved the pain because I caused all of this. Dumb meets dumber.

    Thank God I filed. They have something, a fucking disordered match.
    It’s a dream come true, he settled for what he could get and I lost a disturbed fucked up looser. It’s a win win.

    • A pump in his balls? Bwahahahaha. OMG I love it. Slick Dick and Slunt. They do deserve each other. Good for you Donna!

  • another thing……my XH and OW moved 3000 miles across the states. She had to get him that far away from me to feel ‘safe’ with him because she knew he was still in love with me. (Are these people even capable of love? I think not) Like I cared after he screwed that Skank. I’ll bet a million bucks she NEVER tells anyone how she really got her man. Ha! Screwed him at Ed’s Beds on their first ‘date.’

  • I do agree with CL it is related with selfsteem. Also there is a combination of envy they want to have what you have or what they see thru FB etc.
    thanks to cheaters pants. Then when the whore win “prince fuck” that’s when they fly like an eagle because there is
    no more restaurant$, wine, gift$ and traveling, fuck-A-thon courte$y of our joint accounts or corporate cards. Once they have to be with fucktard 24/7 the whore escape. Karma bus! I love the stories when the whore leaves the
    cheater double broke!

  • For months after I walked in on them, OWhore unleashed a torrent of invective against me. She let me know exactly what sex acts they had performed, that stbx had never loved me, that he had multiple other affairs before her, and so on. She gloated that their affair lasted for so many years because they were soulmates, and she was the true love of his life, and did the whole “say I’m sorry while also insulting you” routine that they do.

    And I spent WAY too much time trying to figure out WHY. Why would the person who destroyed my life attack me?! Shouldn’t there be some shame there somewhere? If anyone was going to go on the warpath, it should have been me, right? I finally just wrote her off as a disordered nut case, and went about my life.

    Now I get it! I was supposed to dance! I guess it’s no fun to gloat when the person you are competing against won’t play.

    • The best part, though, has been this:

      STBX is one of those rare, truly remorseful cheaters. We are divorcing, but we mediated a separation agreement that gives me far more than half, and he’s been seeing a shrink and working to become an actual human being. He realized early on what a disordered asshat he really was, and how truly sick and crazy OW was, and dumped her despite being dumped by me.

      Now she has changed her tune. She had stalked me on a RIC board where I was posting, gleaning new things there to taunt me with. After she got dumped, she started posting there herself. As the VICTIM of a dirty lying cheater who had seduced her against her will. Poor thing, he LIED to her! And fucked other people! While she trusted him! No mention of me or of her scorched earth campaign against me.

      BAT. SHIT. CRAZY. It makes me laugh now.

  • My “ow” (really just a two time f$@& buddy, but I’ll be generous) is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist of 15+ years. If I’ve learned one thing it’s that there is no justice in the world and some people are just plain evil and delight in their own dementedness. I’ve dreamed up all kinds of ways to expose her and ruin her career and life, but I know just enough about her to know she’s unstable and I dont need a crazy enemy. Putting my life back in order is hard enough as is. She did try to taunt me by sending me pics at work of the baby she claimed was stbx’s, though science proved otherwise. And, she stalked me on LinkedIn – maybe to know what a real, honest career looks like. Little Facebook stalking and taunting too until I reported her and they threatened to yank her account. Narcissists can’t lose their FB. It makes me sick to my stomach that she’s out there counseling couples and families when she went out of her way to ruin mine, knowing full well he was married (as she was oddly delighted to admit). And also that she used her own baby as a pawn for financial and emotional blackmail. I try hard everyday to let it go, but I so pray that the karma train catches up to her. It did hurt her that stbx never even entertained the idea of leaving me or being with her at any time. As far as I’m concerned they can have each other, but turns out she was nothing he would be seen in public with – image conscious narcissist that he is. Every time I pay my taxes I want to vomit because she’s a lmft working for the county – our tax dollars at work. She also goes to church every week. Insulting on so many levels. Where is my meteor of karma?

    I lurk here a lot and really like reading all the stories. Gives me strength to get through this tunnel of hell. I can’t wait for the day this shit storm is far behind me.

    • This is why you need to report her – because shes unleashing that unstability fuckwaddery on others. If you do it anonymously, with a bit of time passing – she might think its you, but then she might think its any number of others who have ‘slighted’ her since.

      • Would love to. I looked into it but you can’t be anonymous and they require details and proof to take action. I have enough proof with the private investigator, dna test and letters from lawyers, but no way to make it anonymous. Also, from reading the complaint forms it seems they only really care and promise action if the counsellors lover is a patient of theirs or underage. Neither applies. I do feel it’s crazy though, if my counselor was a moral-less whore I would be pissed.

        • Lania–OW is a licensed counselor for the govt. I filed a complaint. She and my narc ex manipulated the facts and painted me as a liar. Best advice–stay away from the disordered. It’s the fastest way to get them out of your life!

    • Gosh! My ex’s skank (the one that wrote that letter that was pushed through the UBT a few days ago) is also a licensed therapist. A master’s degree in psychologoy and working at a University as a Family Counselor. Sick! Sick! Sick!

    • The OW in my case is a minister and teaches a Pre-Marital course. I know she has a Masters in Divinity Studies, but I don’t know what qualifies her to teach a Pre-Marital course. I’m assuming she went through some type of certificate program or maybe not. She’s been married 3 times so far, so maybe that’s qualification enough.

      • Chump princess– My ex’s AP married us and is a counselor (not ours, but she did give me marriage advice telling me to leave him). My ex was also friends with her husband. Now they are living together and she acts like my toddler (they cheated while I was pregnant) is her child, and even tells my baby her kids are siblings. So now my child is referring to them as brothers. Mind you, my ex only sees our child a weekend a month, and her kids maybe visit 6 times a year. These OW are so sick. OW hands off my child each time and Ex ignores me–like he’s afraid he will get in trouble! I keep waiting for this shit sandwich nightmare to end, but alas I think she and my ex are too alike for that to ever happen. Plus, now they have something to prove.

  • Disordered people can only play a game they are certain to ‘win’. Thus, they will only strike when the odds of ‘winning’ are nearly 100% in their favour.
    These are the people who would punch a Deafblind person in the face if that benefitted them in some way.
    Its why they keep a wide berth from someone who is prepared to beat the utter shit out of them or destroy their lives. They won’t play a game where things are equal – they have to win at all costs because its all about them.

    • If it’s guaranteed to be in their favor, it’s not really a competition now, is it? They have to make sure that you don’t stand a chance at all, then they can fully rub their “victory” in your face.

  • The more I read the more I learn. Like one of the chumps it took me a year to write in this blog. I saw another chump commenting the same. Sometimes we go on “pick me dance mode” because we are trApped. If you have the financial opportunity to get the hell out please do so. It is very hard pretend, RIC , losing weight, work and put the happy face in front of the SOB . i promise myself to smile and at my work people tell me I am always happy ( my bastard sometimes ask me too). He does not know yet that I know. The point is : they want to see you suffering …do not give them the pleasure. As we speak I already started my .financial independance & cheaters pants gets upset that I can do stuff on my own with my son without “telling him” Simple things such going to the movies or a restaurant. If you are reading & you can run away do it. The pick me dance is mentally draining as we speak I have insomia & I work today 11/11. The key: try find financial independance and if you are still with the bastard do not invite any family for Thanksgiving make up a back pain and do not cook. first boicot to the SOB that’s my plan. As usual we always think about our kids my son is sleeping & my Sob snoring like a pig.

  • She did the pick me dance way more effectively than I did. In fact, I did it for all of maybe a month until I realized he wasn’t going to pick me anyway. Maybe it had something to do with her incessant emails to him, professing her love, even while we were on family outings with our adult children. She didn’t stop showering him with love and affection while our lives were enmeshed in the day to dayness of marriage (per Meryl Streep in Heartburn). And then I literally kicked out my husband of 23 years right into her lap. He was there anyway, but I didn’t put up much of a fight. I filed for divorce almost immediately. Second to him, I probably made her a very happy woman.

  • The disordered MOW in my marriage would scream at my children (22&18.) Calling them Drug addicted sluts like their mother. My STBX just sat on his ass reading the paper. I was out of state at the time. I never engaged with this narcissistic woman. She sent letters to me accusing me of being a bad mother and that my husband didn’t love me. Well she never had children. She played the pity me card on that. She tried to get me to engage in Competion for my husband of 30 years. I never responded in any way to her craziness or his craziness. My children don’t respect their father. Hate her. She seems to hate Santa Fe cause it’s not the Big Apple!!! They aren’t together much. Yep that great Union which untangled me from what I thought was a perfect three decade marriage, set me free to find a better life!!! Don’t know what those two disordered clowns got out of it. Ex looks unhappy every time I see him. I came out of it so much better, smarter and stronger! Thank you CN and CL!!!!

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