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The “Anyone Could Cheat” Defense

falseloveThe other day “Roaring” left this comment:

I had an email exchange with my (former) minister earlier today that really frustrated me. I reached out to him because my STBX is very active in the church (where everyone loves him because he is SO helpful and kind) and I have stopped attending because the hypocrisy is too much for me to bear.

Anyway, I have felt the lack of spiritual support and reached out to this person who ostensibly cares for all alike. His advice?

[and I quote] “Feeling self-righteous and morally superior is a big trap. If you think you could never do what he did, there’s a possibility of moral superiority, so try feeling willing to forgive. (STBX) is in trouble. In so many ways, worse off than you. If you can’t help him, stop thinking negatively about him.”

Well, I could NEVER do what he did (threesomes with strangers, prostitutes, craigslist hookups, webcam porn […etc.] ) so I guess I am guilty of moral superiority.

And I’m living out of a suitcase in my brother’s basement while STBX continues whoring and drinking and dragging his heels on meeting to settle the divorce.

But he’s “in so many ways worse off than” me.

I’m just grateful to live in this age of the Internet and the access to Chump Lady. This “betrayed spouse co-created this mess” stuff is crap.


That pastor needed a theological slap upside the head, so I sent the comment over to Divorce Minister (as quoting scripture is above my pay grade…) and DM obliged with a proper smackdown.

But the part of this clusterfuck that I wanted to address is this idea that YOU TOO could be a cheater! So don’t judge! Never object to infidelity because you’re a sinner too! Yes, deep down in your petty, bitter heart is a cheater just trying to get out, yet you lack the exuberant defiance.

If you think you could never do what he did, there’s a possibility of moral superiority, so try feeling willing to forgive.

Let me get this straight — I should forgive and not be smug because I too could have threesomes with people I meet on Craigslist?

There is one person who is actually doing these things and another person who might, theoretically, perhaps, some day be capable of doing these things — so we should treat them equivalently.

Yeah, NO.

Does this thinking work anywhere else?

Sir, I’m not going to prosecute you for drowning kittens, because I too might some day be a kitten killer. There are moments when I’m not too fond of my cat. Like that time she left a dead mouse on my pillow. I shouldn’t judge you for drowning kittens. I shouldn’t even be angry. Perhaps you’re dealing with some issues in your life right now that compelled you to throw Fluffy and Snowball in a sack and toss them into the drink. I’m sure, in many ways, you’re worse off than Fluffy and Snowball. 

It’s idiocy. Moreover it deflects the conversation away from what the cheater DID to what you might theoretically do. Then you get into the pissing match of Your Feelings, the argument that can never be won.

Pastor: Deep down Roaring you could cheat too.

Roaring: No I couldn’t. I’m quite certain fucking prostitutes is beyond me.

Pastor: I don’t think so. I don’t think you’re examining yourself honestly.

Roaring: No, I’ve had a good look at myself and threesomes with hookers is not on the menu.

Pastor: But theoretically it could be…


How many chumps can dance on the head of a pin? Maybe the earth was created by alien lifeforms! Maybe Donald Trump will be our next president! While we’re all engaged in stupid speculation, guess who gets a pass? The cheater. Guess who gets to eat the shit sandwich? The chump.

Status quo maintained.


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  • Sure, in theory I could cheat, although in nearly half a century I have yet to do it in any relationship. That doesn’t change, though, the fact that my ex did cheat… and he did it a lot. And then he tried to destroy me financially. And to this day treats me like crap and sees any time the kids are mad at me as a victory for him.

    But hey, I’ll try not to get judgy on the asshole. Give me a break.

  • Ah, but you are not judging him, you are judging yourself. That lifestyle is not for you. Free him up to find his people. And free yourself up to find new ministry.

    • “Free him up to find his people.”

      I love this Nancy, because I realized that my ex and so many others were apparently meant to live completely different lives, lives we could never live (and I meant NEVER, to all those judge-y types out there).

      Why my ex did not go out and simply live it openly is beyond me (oh wait, it’s not, a sociopath’s thrill of getting over on his unsuspecting wife is sooooo satisfying … but I digress.)

      Yes, our exes are now free to live the lives they should have chosen way before they did. This past summer, my ex married one of his group sex partners (he had been having affairs and group sex with her and her best friend for 17 years before I caught him on D-day and threw him out). Ex had to move 5 hours away with Schmoopie to avoid the gossip over his astonishing betrayals, and lost most of his friends. Our children refuse to even speak to him and it appears that has lost them forever, not that this has made him even blink.

      So yes, he is now surrounded with what I call a “cabal of sociopaths”– his now-“wife”, her best friend (and their group-sex partner), along with other assorted misfits they’ve collected along the way to join their little dysfunctional gang.

      In the end, water seeks its own level.

      • Kelly,
        My dad is the psychopath and I’m a chump kid. He never left because he liked the shield of normalcy his wife and kids provided. Worked for him! They love the deceit, the theft of time and resources. Chaos works in their favor. I think some pastors are slow to confront evil such as this because it shows that these type of people are among them and share their beliefs, and narcissistically, the pastor’s can’t have it, it makes them look bad if that is what they are attracting into their pews.

        Also, friends, do yourself a huge favor and do not have any “theoretical” arguments with anyone. Ever. Complete waste of time. “Theoretically you could be a cheater?” Excuse me? Say what? Only the truth will set you free. The truth is cheaters suck and leave chaos and destruction everywhere they go.

      • Yes, Kelly, water seeks its own level. I say that to myself a lot, it helps explain why my ex would choose the 5-x-married (now 6) ho over me. The two of them are well matched; I was way too good for him. Water does indeed seek its own level.

    • Nancy, I do find this paradigm empowering in face of the mind-fuckery. At the end of the day, regardless of how I, anyone else, society, the clergy, or marriage counselors view my situation or view infidelity, I need to take care of myself, to construct healthy boundaries, to make sure I am in a safe place, and to impose consequences on those that violate my boundaries and my safety. If that means divorcing the cheater, then that is what I do. If that means a certain type of reconciliation, then I do that. Etc.

      Sure, it is disappointing and sad when those we should respect tell us to eat the shit sandwich without examining our health and safety and without looking out for our best interests.

      The overriding lesson of infidelity for me has been a continuous smack and the side of the head yelling “Take care of yourself first! Take care of yourself! Create a healthy and safe environment for you, and the rest will follow!”

      • Buddy, you stand your ground. In my experience with my psycho father, he screened my (religious) mother for kindness, knowing she wouldn’t leave him because it is against her beliefs. I think cheater narcs love to have you go against your own idea of yourself, and to retreat on your own boundary is their greatest satisfaction. I can only imagine … how smug a cheater feels when the chumps religious inspiration tells them to continually tolerate their evil behavior.What’s the point?

        I remember the old country song “Drop kick me Jesus, through the goal post of life” with the back up singers snapping their fingers together, singing quietly, “because then, although alone, I will be free of this narcissistic cheating asshole”. Amen.

        • So no matter what boundary is imposed, the narcissist BPD cheater type will try to challenge or ignore it!

          I never really thought of it like that.

          Do all adult behave this way? Like toddlers and teenagers?

          Hopefully someday I’ll be in a relationship where the other person truly collaborates to solve problems together and everything isn’t a mindfuck or a test or a challenge.

          • I have often wondered myself if all adults behave this way, like toddlers or teenagers..
            One thing X would say to me is “not everyone thinks like you do.”

            I married X believing I had the ideal relationship, working together to solve problems,
            no games, “best friends,” trusting that the other would never betray the marriage.

            Maybe someday I will find that relationship. It seems honesty is rare.

          • Buddy, after yet the LATEST round of mindfuckery (CL is right: have no expectations. Do not engage), my counsellor said: Patsy, you can never have a relationship with this man. Well you can … when he is dead.

            ‘I won’t and you can’t make me!’ seems to drive them.

        • Nancy, I love your comment!! — “Free him up to find his people.”

          This off topic, but your reference to the country song reminded me of an ENORMOUS statue near where I used to live that we locals called “Touchdown Jesus” — the pose of the out-stretched arms was similar to a football goal post. It got struck by lightning and burned to the ground in a HUGE fire 5 years ago…

          • I love your potty mouth too CL! What you say is what I think (and sometimes say, now that I’m coming out of my co-dependent state, and am now a diva-bitch-in-training. For that pastor who’s acting like such an ignorant, smug jack-ass: one finger, two words.

        • CL, Please send napkins… Your comment caused an immediate and uncontrollable coffee spew! 🙂 I agree with you. I, too, tend to have a morally inferior mouth when responding to BS.

        • And, please, for the love of all that is holy, no Donald Trump cannot be president! It’s just too much. I’ll admit to possibly, maybe in a weak moment having a midget-clown-upside-down-threesome (fueled with booze and possibly some LSD).

          But no, NO, no Trump for President.

          I couldn’t handle it.

        • I heard on the radio this morning that a US study indicated that people who swear tend to have a larger vocabulary. I’m all for good vocabularies.

            • I cuss a lot, but my ex, who is the biggest liar on the planet, gets all huffed up over what he refers to as “potty talk,” and makes a big deal even out of words like “hell” or “damn.” Funny how a simple swear word gets him worked up but he lies and cheats without any hesitation whatsoever.

            • Sorry to ‘rain on your parade’, but the cheater-pants I am dealing with developed a potty mouth ONLY after he became o full-blown / full-time cheater!

              On the other hand, my adult child has a (part-time) potty mouth and he is as honest as the day is long!

              Love hearing all y’all’s thoughts on this totally clueless ‘pastor’s’ stupid spew! (Hope everyone also read DM’s response over at Divorce Minister.)

              Forge on, Nation….ForgeOn!

            • My ex had a potty mouth and was rarely honest. I usually don’t swear and try to be honest and straightforward with people.

        • Hey, Tracy, I just heard that it was discovered in a recent study that people who swear often have larger vocabularies and are more “verbally fluent”!

          Fuckin’ A.

        • I used the F word in a heated discussion once with my poor excuse for a pastor ( no longer), after spending close to 20 min defending my actions to leave the cheater, and the church as they closed ranks around the cheater and hid his sin. The moment the word was used the discussion changed from the fact my ex husband had been doing dudes in public toilets for eight years to and I quote “that language is just disgusting, clearly if you had had a better father figure growing up you wouldn’t act this way”. Act opposing to their desires, more like it. He totally dismissed the concerns still un dealt with from D’ day, our daughter with cancer, and that he and elder who were too busy saving face.
          Yep this was all my doing because my dad died when I was 4.

          • The RIC people get very upset when you use “descriptive” language to describe cheater activity. They don’t like language like ” he was fucking a whore ” or “getting a blow job in the parking lot” . That’s just unacceptable, even if it’s exactly what happened. You chumps don’t have to be so crude, you know. It’s an affair, not just screwing…

        • The people who translated the Bible into English couldn’t fathom writing “Fuck Off” in it, so they went with rebuke, but you are welcome to read “Fuck Off” anytime you come across the word rebuke. 🙂

      • I find myself continually grateful to have a Biblical pastor who rebuked and told X he was not welcome back without repentance. His first words to me were “Its in no way your fault”.
        Chump, its time for a new minister and a new church!

        • My church and minister were the same way. Sad to know this is not the norm. Just curious- what denomination is your church? Mine is a non denominational Christian church.

          • My Deacon (who knew MUCH more about my life than I did but he was bound by confidentiality) urged me to not worry about cheaterhusband and take care of myself.

            I was a stupid ass and didnt take his advise.

            I later asked that same Deacon to marry me & newhusband (who is a dear love…we met as children then our spouses abused us for a collective 35 years. He proposed in Ephesus then we cruised the Aegean Sea). For all the serious misery I suffered, my life now is really great.

      • That will preach. But not here in America where we worship the perfect hair, blue eyed, lamb toting “Breck Girl” Jesus that loves everyone and doesn’t mind your sin.

  • Thanks for the shout out, CL!

    A few more things to add:

    This “defense” that anyone could do it reminds me of the Duggar Scandal. It is like them trying to pass off Josh Duggar’s sexual molestation of minors as normal sexual exploration behavior when it is NOT!

    Yes, theoretically, we are all capable of incredible evil. However, not everyone is a criminal or sociopath.

    Besides, this sort of “defense” really is a red herring…taking attention away from the issue of how wrong the adulterous behavior is and the need for it to stop pronto for everyone’s sake.

    • Excellent point DM! It is a distraction and a blame shift to put it on the faithful spouse and it is evil as well. Thank you for being a voice of reason in Christian circles!

    • This, in my opinion, gives Christians a bad name. The new anything goes theology, is all bogus. My pastor was the exact opposite. He told spouse she broke her vows/covenant and it was my right to divorce her. Plain and simple. The hard truths should be spoken not this fluffy feel good crap churches spew for financial gain!

        • Any one who gives different advice, is a false prophet! i do not disagree that God hates divorce. But he also hates adultery. These people who look at God as only love and grace are missing the bigger picture. You can not just do what you want all day long and at end of week ask for forgiveness then start same behaviors back up the next week. My spouse was the poster child of God loves us all! I can do what I want and he is ok with it! Truth is, the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom! Sex is much bigger much deeper than most think. There is a spiritual connection and you become one with that person. Todays pseudo preachers will get their due one day….. you do not get to preach BS for your pocket to swell!

      • Like every snowflake is unique, so are Christians!!The first thing OW said was, “I am a Christian woman”!! LMAO!!!! Any person who uses their faith to justify bad behavior is a very sad cowardly being! ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS!

    • Whenever I hear of a minister not doing his/her duty in this area, I always think they are cheaters too…..Narcs love to be ministers.

      • Bingo!!! It took me awhile to catch on but everytime I got a response from a friend or acquaintance stating something like the pastor…. That I was casting a stone or I should be the bigger person… The light bulb went on …. ‘ YOUR A FUCKING CHEATER TOOOO! ‘ I have yet to be proven wrong.

  • That kind of reasoning should be reserved for times when someone accidentally breaks a plate or a glass in your home. How can I be angry? I broke a plate last month! Next week I might break a glass, or two!

      • Hah, when I knew where X-hole was staying/meeting up with OWhore I was going to ambush him at the room in his hotel. My sister said “what’s the point, even if you catch him screwing her he’ll swear he tripped and fell into her.” I’m sure she was right, deny, deny, deny…..

  • Right, I’m way too moral and up higher on the mammal status because I would never cheat, lie, deceive or subject my spouse to STDs. I honored my vows and kept my promises but I am of higher moral standards! Damn right I am and so is everyone one else who wouldn’t cheat. That pastor is probably on bondage bitch dating sites like my ex. Just another asshole.

    • That was the first thing I thought of when I read what the pastor wrote: He obviously is cheating on his wife and is using this woman’s agony as a self-serving “excuse” for his immoral behavior.

        • Yup…Pastor is a cheater…after all ANYONE could be a cheater (blah blah bullshit bullshit)
          I apparently missed the memo, somehow managed 26 years of faithfulness

  • My mother in law tried some of this with me. She said she really wanted to meet with me. She wanted to tell me she was sorry .Finally after 3 years, I agreed to meet with her. Only to have her continue to try to Gaslight me blameshift everything that the classic enabler does. I have discovered that the family( that has knowledge of this cheating) which is nothing less than abuse are the WORST when it comes to this very tactic .

    • Absolutely agree, k.
      I’ve known these people, the in laws, for over 22yrs. They all operate in similar modes of abuse. Mostly covert. Almost all passive aggressive. HUGE hypocrites who lie, cheat and steal, and then profess their deep religious beliefs. Who ARE these people?

  • Yeah, it’s always easy for someone to tell you to be forgiving when it’s not them that’s being f’d over. All of that “turn the other cheek and take the higher road” bullshit is easy to spew when the reality of the situation doesn’t AFFECT you.

    Enablers. Instead of supporting consequences for the cheater, understanding that the chumped has already lowered the bar as much as they can stand to, insist that they tolerate more. A man “supposedly” of God’s work, tells you to forgive the unforgiveable, can’t confront cheater, impose consequences or accountability.

    God doesn’t favor adulterers and I seriously doubt that he expects chumps to subject themselves to whatever vile indescretions their nasty cheaters choose. Nasty assholes that cruise for Craigslist hookups and prostitutes are the reason that STD’s are rampant.

    The Lord helps those that help themselves. Help yourselves get the fuck away from selfish, disgusting and cheating assholes. Forgiveness is not mandatory.

    • Forgiveness also does not equal reconciliation. Scripture does ask us to let go and let God take charge of consequences and vengeance. This is what I understand to be forgiveness. Simply letting go and not trying to take revenge.

      Scripture, however; does NOT command us to stay in a marriage covenant with someone who broke his or her vows. I even had one pastor say that the “turn your other cheek” thing is the most misunderstood piece of scripture. According to him, it didn’t mean to be a doormat and take abuse. In those times, a person who was slapped was being repaid for slapping someone else. So, in the original context, when it says turn the other cheek, scripture is simply saying go above and beyond in allowing someone to pay you back for slapping them. Note that it is the offender who is turning the other cheek and being slapped twice, not the offended. In the sense that we are talking about, it would mean the cheater needs to go above and beyond in making things right.

      So, let the unrepentant, selfish cheater go. You don’t have to “turn the other cheek” or go above and beyond to appease them anymore. What we can do is go above and beyond in making this world a better place, which is where I believe the Lord’s heart really is.

  • Yep, Jesus forgave the prostitutes and sinners. Sure did. BUT……he said “go and sin no more”. No. More.

    Big difference between forgiving a truly repentant person vs someone who has not admitted fault and is still reveling in their cheating/porn.

      • EXACTLY, Michael…..The XBF was always giving me the ‘can’t you forgive and forget?’ routine.

        ‘No, I CAN’T/WON’T because in your entitled mind, it would give you a free pass.’

          • And that means lost something THEY didn’t want to give up. Not much of true value seems to matter to the disordered. X-hole lost a LOT and it evidently was all things that didn’t matter. Home, life with son, supportive, trusting and loving SO….mmmmmkay.

      • “Jesus doesn’t do the pick-me dance.”

        “Forgiving the unrepentant is just enabling.”

        Boy, there are some gems on here today. These are keepers!!

        • I agree, and may I add:
          “Free him (x) up to find his people.”
          “Water seeks its own level.” Thanks for that one Kelly 😉

          • May I add this pithy gem that I came up with several months ago which got quite a bit of acclaim: (paraphrasing to suit this situation)

            “We must become indifferent to their indifference”.

      • Not only that, forgiving the unrepentant opens you up to abuse. During the bogus reconciliation, my ex continually threatened to leave me if I didn’t forgive him immediately. He kept telling me it would be my fault if the reconciliation didn’t work out, because I wasn’t forgiving him even though he had already forgiven himself and Jesus had forgiven him as well. It was a giant mind-fuck.

        • Ummm yeah…I forgave the FIRST time, he conned me. “I’m sorry I hurt you, I didn’t realize how much you loved me, I’ll never hurt you again.” Right dickhead. Less than 6 months and he was caught again. Never again will I fall for that bullshit. One red flag and I am OUT!

        • Oh, I Do.Not.Miss that mental torture at all… I don’t hold the key to the Pearly Gates, so I’ll let the greater powers that be decide whether or not my ex is worthy of forgiveness. On the realm of Earth, I decided it was best for me just to cut him loose so he could go be with “his people” (as Nancy said above!).

      • My cheating wife and I have been struggling with this exact back-and-forth. While she’s resigned to the fact that I cannot forgive her (almost two years since D-day 1/of many), she doesn’t understand why.

        She still tells me she accepts “full responsibility for her cheating; BUT…” and then begins to list out a series of issues about the marriage that led to her cheating. I stop her and inform her I’m not interested in whatever rationalization she and her counselor cooked-up.

        She cheated. Period.

        I need to add your statement, “Forgiving the unrepentant is just enabling.”

        Thank you for this. Unfortunately, she won’t get what “unrepentant” means other than the perfunctory, “What? I said I was ‘sorry!'”

        • I hate those non-apologies, hate them. “What’s YOUR problem? I said I was SORRY, for fuck’s sake!” If I ruled the world, every time a cheater said that, the floor would open up under him or her and there’d be a short downhill ride into a pit of poisonous snakes.

        • The non-apologies were so painful. And then he jumped on me for invading his privacy and how I said I’m sorry I invaded his privacy but he abused my trust. I was sorry I invaded his privacy! I did not like that he would lie to my face when I had found evidence. I’m sorry I did that. I did not want to have to do that. I did it because he betrayed me and I think that justifies it actually. I then wanted complete transparency so that this wasn’t an issue. It really was an I’m sorry AND….

          I also got a lot of I’m sorry you are hurt. Look, I didn’t stub my toe, YOU FUCKED SOMEONE ELSE.

          And the I’m sorry. Full stop. Uh, about what? Not getting any work done today? How you didn’t engage with the kids today? About that online sex thing you did our whole marriage? Why exactly do I have to fill this in for you? Or ask?

          Here I was, waiting for the man I thought i married, where I could talk about being a good wife and what that means and what a good husband means to me. Once he fully owned the damage of the cheating and made amends.

          Yeah, not happening.

      • Yep, the thing is that I highly doubt Roaring was in any way attacking the cheater, or demanding that his head be paraded around the church sanctuary on a pike. Church leadership can work to model forgiveness to the cheater, while entirely condemning his actions and making it super clear that they’re going to support and protect the chump at all costs. Forgiveness is not synonymous with “removing all consequences and making everything nice and neat and tidy so that cheater isn’t convenience in the least bit.”

      • Amen! Told my ex-wife that I was willing to forgive. Her answer was she did nothing wrong.

        I am willing to forgive the repentant. But the unrepentant cannot be forgiven. Not because of any failure or fault of the wronged party. No, they cannot be forgiven because you cannot forgive someone who doesn’t believe they’ve done wrong.

        • I’ve come to this same conclusion. I told stbxw that I forgave her but she never asked for forgiveness. Through other reading and CL, I’ve come to realize that I don’t need to forgive the unrepentant just like you have stated. That’s actually brought me a whole lot more peace than trying to forgive her.

  • The callousness of your pastor toward you, his camaraderie with your ex, and his normalizing of your ex’s behavior indicates that your pastor is most likely a cheater himself.

    My UBT read his response as: “How dare you judge your EX (and ME!)? You’re no special snowflake, just because you honored your wedding vows! Everyone serially cheats and patronizes whores! So what if you’re feeling grieved over the loss of your husband and spiritual community. What about your ex’s precious feelings (and MINE!)?”

    • Yes! That’s exactly what I thought, too. I have a friend who is divorcing her pastor-husband for adultery and abuse. His denomination accepts divorce, but the man is already “Facebook official” with his affair partner even though he’s still married. It’s disgusting.

      • Years back a friend of my mother’s was working in the rectory at her local Catholic Church, she was all giddy with delight and insisted on telling my mom about her affair…. she was married and screwing the priest. Nice.

      • Cheese & Rice!!!!
        We were married to the same guy!!!!
        Everyone knew my X and MOW ( both Ministers ) were an item for the last 3 years of my marriage!!
        Hello – not one person have a flying fuck.
        Congregation didn’t even blink.
        Left me without a house ( we lived in a rectory ) and hours away from my friends and family. No car and my life was on hold because we had compromised so much for him to go back to school.

        I have had a hard time wrapping my mind around our society’s view of marriage, fidelity and basic human values.

        WTF is going on?!?!
        I call Shenanigans !!!!

        3 years out and still cannot bring myself to go to church.

        I want me one of those throw pillows though….

    • I agree, I have learnt a lot about human nature in the past few months. I’ve found out that there are lot of heaters around and one of the biggest giveaway is casual attitude towards how you have been treated or even justifying it.

  • I can tell you that in the Christian Pop Church culture there is an unspoken policy to never recommend divorce. Period. It is nothing short of a subculture. I know. I went through this with my church when my marriage blew up. This is completely unbiblical and the church will bend and twist scripture to fit this agenda. I was given all sorts of bad advice that amounted to me having to focus on what I did, and how I have no right to judge others who are entangled in sin since I’m a sinner as well. (The “Judge Not…” verse is one of the most misused verses) Again, this is not biblical. In fact the Bible clearly says to separate yourself from the sexually immoral. Clearly! Any misrepresentation to the contrary results in further abuse of the faithful spouse. It also places the responsibility of reconciliation squarely on the adulterous spouse, not the victim.

    I was initially confused because they were very keen to pepper the truth of what the Bible says with their own doctrine. But I knew in my heart something was amiss. God is very, very against Adultery. But the church has this “play nice” policy because they are afraid the not so nice parts of scripture will drive people away. Can’t we all just be nice and not rock the boat? It’s molded into a feel good culture. It’s not realistic and the Bible does not ask us to do that.

    • Precisely, Michael. That is a BIG reason why I started my blog, “Divorce Minister: Taking Adultery Seriously.” I am trying to combat that very unbiblical subculture that continues to enable perpetrators of adultery–aka soul rape.

      It is ridiculous watching pastors treat divorce as the same or worse than adultery. Clearly, they are not reading the same Book to draw that conclusion 😉

    • In the new testament, St. Paul found out that a member of the church was sleeping with his stepmother. Paul recommended that the members excommunicate that person from the church, so he would be lonely and truly repent. That individual did stop sleeping with his stepmother and Paul encouraged them to welcome the individual back into the fellowship AFTER he had really repented. That is how seriously sexual immorality was taken in that day.

      I also believe that the real reason God hates divorce is because he loves divorced people and their children and hates to see them in pain. In the popular I hate divorce passage taken from Malachi, God is angry because the men are throwing their wives away for pagan wives despite the fact that their wives have been faithful to the vows. God is also angry because he wants Godly children from the union. It is definitely worth noting that God is angry about men turning their backs on their vows to their faithful wives. That is a big part of what God was hating in that chapter. Whenever anyone tries to throw the whole God hates divorce verse in your face, remember that it was the FAITHFUL spouses who were being discarded.

  • True, in the past, my superficial relationships would overlap. I wondered how a person was supposed to react, when dating a not so perfect match, and faced with someone more attractive and attracted. It happened many times when I was young. I had no guidance, no manual. I changed dates when I thought it was an improvement, because it was supposed to be a choice for life.
    True also, I did move in with a guy or two, and realized that life had suddenly become extremely boring, until it was unbearable. But it took me (or him) only a couple of months to put an end to the bad relationship.
    I don’t equate it with cheating on someone whom you spent more than a happy decade with. Has my cheater forgotten how difficult it is to find a long term partner ? He couldn’t even find a superficial girlfriend. He put me through several horrible years. I don’t feel morally superior at all, but still can’t understand how he could let this happen. I’ve been his best friend, he doesn’t have any other.

    • ChumpFromF – boy, I feel exactly the same way. There are no manuals when you are young. If you had a happy decade with this man, you are right. They have NO idea how long it takes to find a good partner that is not superficial. (I was on 35 yrs) >Ithat<, a switch went off.

      Then, when he refused to do ANYTHING with me, (family reunions, family weddings, you know – the good stuff) I asked him. Is your work more important than your family? He took a full minute to respond and said yes, my business is more important.

      Of course, you know WHO his business was.

      I went to the reunions anyway and told everybody who would listen to me, wondering where he was, and I just repeated his answer to me. That was about a month before I found out the truth. So, I guess the family had 30 days to process what I told them before the whole thing blew up in his face and I hit him with divorce papers.

  • Not only would most chumps not cheat, most would never be able to weave the incredible web of lies involved in leading a double life.

    Our beliefs – that our husbands and wives would also eschew lying and betrayal – is why it takes us so long to “catch on.” We make excuses for things that don’t make sense because the facts are so completely outside the realm of what we can imagine.


    • Oh jeez YES to your comment TC. Many people ask me how could I have NOT known about the majority of my sham marriage to a serial cheater.
      1) asshat is a thespian. Very convincing.
      2) because I could never consider cheating, deceit and the fab double life, I could not even begin to think my parter was capable of it.

    • Our beliefs – that our husbands and wives would also eschew lying and betrayal – is why it takes us so long to “catch on.” We make excuses for things that don’t make sense because the facts are so completely outside the realm of what we can imagine.

      TC it is this exactly that kept me trapped in the maze of fear and pain inside my own head for the first year; unable to make good choices due to the not knowing because I couldn’t imagine what was really going on. Even after I knew some of what had been going on for the entire relationship / marriage, I still couldn’t navigate the maze and free myself. I couldn’t stop wondering if it were actually all my fault like he was telling me. I had only darkness inside where my soul used to reside as I continued to allow him to rip it out of me and shatter it over and over and over. …I wasn’t even a human being anymore…I was a hollow, empty pitiful THING.

      I am so grateful for Tracy and all of you for being the beacon that lit my way out of the darkness. I feel so much better now.

      I know I am not the reason for his choices. That’s all on him. I have learned so much from you guys and your almost identical experiences – almost across the board! They do indeed walk among us…and we suffer them…until we just about die from suffering them. Stay with one of them at your own peril! I no longer suffer these disordered fools and their egos. I don’t run…I just step aside and let them pass. I want no part of their sparkly cowardly lives.

      • I am going to quote a post from Nomar some time ago that to me says it all about this issue:

        “nomar says
        November 1, 2012 at 3:38 pm
        Chuck Klosterman wrote about this in one of his novels. A male character fails to recognize warning flags that his wife is cheating. Or perhaps, refuses to recognize them. Klosterman says that the man recognized cheating was possible, that anything was possible since men had walked on the moon. But that if his wife cheated, it would mean he had to re-evaluate ***eveything he thought about every person he knew in the whole world***, and that this was too much to contemplate. In Klosterman’s words, “beyond reality.”

        We are limited in our fears to the reality we inhabit. Sometimes I think that immense loneliness we feel after D-day is the tremendous volume of the sucking empty space around us when the old, comfortable reality of our marriage explodes.”

        • I believe you are right Kelly. The sucking empty space that used to be filled with, in my world, a cowardly liar that just looked like the ‘love of my life’ NOT!

        • It took me years to work through the knowledge that he had an affair with Susan of Seattle and was very mean to me and he was a covert narc and never loved me…I was about done putting all those pieces into their processed place when (3 months before my wedding to newhusband) I learned that deadhusband was a serial cheater and I was sent to that place where I

          had to re-evaluate everything he thought about every person he knew in the whole world

          He established a pattern of behavior that was so normal to me that I never saw any of it until I looked back with the knowledge of what he did and only then did I see the ill-fitting moments that made no sense at the time but now do if you accept the premise that he was screwing OWs

          I think my deadhusband would have been a happy cheater except that he was Catholic and regardless of what gripes you may have with Catholicism, they are pretty clear on the whole “Mortal sin” aspect of adultery. He was taught very clearly that what he did was wrong yet he still chose it and lived at odds with his faith…and all those times he didnt take communion, I thought he was being noble.

          • When you say mortal sin, can they repent and be forgiven? My idiot STBX and I guess whore, since he was never really religious before, now says he is catholic. He is an adulterer still married to me and living in sin with her. Can he actually ever be forgiven and accepted into the faith? What does mortal sin mean? I am not religious…

            • I’m not catholic, (I’m protestant), but from what I have read, a repentant person CAN be forgiven for a mortal sin once he or she repents. I guess the difference is a mortal sin can send a person to hell if he or she does not repent. A venial sin apparently only sends a person to purgatory if he or she does not repent. Catholics are not allowed to receive communion if they have unconfessed mortal sins.

              FYI…catholics also believe that there is no such thing as a divorce. Once you marry, you are married to that person for life and marrying someone else is adultery. When you and your stbx divorce, whatever sex he has after that, even in a remarriage is considered adultery. The are only a few ways he can avoid living in mortal sin for the rest of his life:

              A) Your stbx could remain completely celibate for the rest of his life

              B) Your stbx could try to come back and get you to marry him again since you are the only one he is allowed to have sex with (so don’t trust his motives if he does come back)

              C) Your stbx could pay the church money and try to get a catholic “annulment” for your marriage. This only happens if the church has reason to believe the marriage was not valid in the first place. Say, for instance, both of you were unbaptized when you got married. It’s very possible for the catholic church to refuse to grant an annulment to your stbx and an annulment is the only way your stbx would be able to have sex again in marriage to someone else without it being considered a mortal sin. Without an annulment, according to catholic beliefs, he will always be an adulterer and forfeit heaven as long as he keeps having sex with anyone but his original wife.

              At that I have to say, is he SURE he wants to be catholic? It really does not go well with his lifestyle. If the church knows about his current state of grace, they will refuse to serve him communion.

      • Jeep

        This was so well stated. You described the toxic abuse expertly. Cheaters are indifferent to our suffering yet I believe every aspect of the abuse is planned out for maximum control and power.
        In the beginning coverts appear to have empathy and it’s carefully placed until something inside our gut twists. I had these exoeriences throughout my marriage and it was very hard fir him to keep in check. Now, looking back I can see numerous examples directed at others.
        X started complaining about mowing a small strip of grass bordering a neighbors garage that took one minute to mow. The guy was dying waiting for a kidney. He would complain and say, “why should I fucking mow that strip of grass”. Every week he got angry and swore about this!
        These fits of unreasonable anger are ever present. The world wrongs them. They never take responsibility for their actions or show genuine remorse. Sure, they will do tasks, but forever with resentment.
        As far as indifference goes theirs is guided by a lack of conscience. Ours is generated through awareness and healing.

        • Thank you donna 🙂

          I am grateful that the awful spiraling out of control, fear, pain and absolute agony is subsiding more and more each day. I also feel safer in the world than I did then. I used to be so scared when I would have to leave my house.

          Along with the knowledge of what I had been dealing with came great rushes of healing epiphanies that washed my shattered and weary soul. The painful re-entry gave me joy that I could once again feel something! Hopefully soon, for all of us, the whole sordid, insidious horror of them will be a mere memory of a life we are now grateful to have shed like a scab.

          satan, like your x, also raged. …I’m beginning to think that the raging is actually to keep us from looking at what is really happening…a diversion tactic. I don’t think they actually care enough about anything to really be engaged enough to have concerns…well…except for themselves. They are all that matter to them…only just themselves.

        • It’s that ever present “entitlement”, they feel entitled to cheat because they justify it with every fabricated slight they have “suffered”. Once you KNOW what they’ve done and what they are capable of you start looking backwards and it all starts falling into place. I’m over it AND him and his bullshit, it’s my son’s hurt that I can’t get over or around.

          A year ago I couldn’t imagine life without him, now I wonder how I ever tolerated it for so long and know I could NEVER go back. Ever.

          • Me either NCStevie!!! No WAY I would allow satan to taint my life with his entitled bullshit anymore!

            Cowardly little snot boy actually showed up across the end of the driveway of my new home once the transfer was in the paper and he knew the address…just like he just knew that I would want to see him!!! WHA???!!! WHO DOES THIS!!!!

            …disordered cowardly non humans!!!!

  • Where do these type of pastor’s get their education and training…the Jimmy Swaggart school of theology? My minister and church executive board kicked my stbx out of the elders and his Sunday school teaching position faster than you can say Amen. They also told him that he could not have any contact with the other woman (his Sunday school teaching partner) on campus or they both would be immediately escorted off campus. They were both so embarrassed by this neither one of them goes to my church anymore. This support from my minister and church has been a huge part of my healing. Never have they said that I could do this too. I pray my situation is more common than Roaring’s. Sorry Roaring I hope you find a new church with strong biblical convictions.

        • Sadly, I didn’t get support from my church where divorce = there must be something wrong with me. Fortunately, I still find comfort in my faith and knowing that I’m not divorced by choice. I didn’t choose to run off and break up two families.

          I truly doubt that the stigma attached to divorce will change. But it’s interesting that our culture accepts that everybody has a right to be “happy” can be so judgemental about divorce. Even more interesting is that the stigma usually attaches to the chump ….not the cheater.

          Something very wrong with that. Especially for church.

          • I’m very sorry that the one place you counted on let you down. I truly understand. When told my church I was choosing divorce, they did not try to talk me down, but reiterated time and again that they didn’t recommend this. They didn’t want me to tell people that this church was one that would recommend divorce. And so they were more concerned with their reputation than with me. I have a feeling your (former?) church was the same.

            It is very wrong indeed.

            I am glad you did not lose faith.

      • Yes it is and I am so grateful. I should probably mention I work for my church, so there might be some extra loyalty toward me but I’ve seen my church rebuke other adulterers too. Also, my church leadership is not as anti-divorce as some others, as long as you have a biblical reason for divorce, they will support a church member through it. When our lead minister heard what my husband was doing, he brought me in his office and told me he thought by stbx had a serious character flaw and it was best for me to get away from him. This was before I was ready for divorce. It ended up being very good advice.

        • Nicole, would you mind telling what church this is? I am in the process of looking for a new church home and I already have a good feeling about yours. If you do mind may be I can PM you in the forum?

          • Hi Michael. I would be happy to share but because I work there I would prefer to do it through the forum and a PM. Thanks!

            • Personally, I recommend the Church of the Beach. I take my dogs there every morning and bless the Good Lord we can all run and have fun. But, that’s just me. I don’t need somebody to tell me how to lead my life through scripture, but I DO respect it. I believe in the 10 commandments to a tee.

              Most of all….do onto Others…

              • I, too, feel close to God in nature, many times I feel closer than I do in church. For me, being part of church isn’t about having someone tell me how to live my life through scripture because I can read scripture and discern that for myself. I like being part of a church to surround myself with others that will help me walk the the talk and vice versa. Jesus told us that is why we should be part of a church. I also like to be part of a community that reaches out and helps others and that is the community I choose for that. That is why choosing a church can be very important for some of us.

  • It’s possible this minister gave this advice because he’s a cheater too. I’ve known plenty of ministers who were cheaters. I even sat on a trial where a minister murdered his wife! The congregation didn’t suspect because he was so “good.” He wasn’t caught until he moved to California where he started confessing to others what he’d done.

    The only authority is God, and ministers are not God. They’re human. Just saying’.

      • Oh please with these self justifying religious people!!! I too was told by the OW ” do not judge” blah blah blah!!! Well this pastor or whatever the hell he is NEEDS to read the Bible! John:7:24 judge accordingly!!! If your house is clean then yes it’s ok to judge the morally corrupt! Everyone of these religious freaks uses quotes from the Bible to fit their needs!!! I am filled with faith BUT DO NOT EVER make a mochary of Gods Grace!!! Every Religion has the same meaning, Just TRY and be a good person! And like my therapist said, ” some people are just not good people”.NO religious interpretation needed for every action! It just self justification !!! Oh and look beyond WHY the pastor said those Very ignorant words?? The cheater is very active in the church? Pastor doesn’t want to lose! Even religious congregations have ulterior motives!!!!

    • Looking back at my youth, when my parents were near divorce, I recall that my Mom had a crush (fell in love?) with the young, charismatic, good-looking (married) pastor at our church. I imagine that some enjoy this sort of attention and it must go to their heads, having numerous women swooning for them, or perhaps some were drawn to the clergy for this reason – kibbles – rather than to truly serve God and the common folk.

  • I was happy to see this conversation today – my exchange with my minister happened over the weekend and I’ve been reeling a little bit as a result.

    My church is Religious Science (or, Center for Spiritual Living). The premise is that everything is God – everything is interconnected.

    I see now that this means “everything equals everything else.” Not a spiritual practice I can support. I’ll let the Universe sort it out.

    • I went to the Church of RS for quite a while and really enjoyed parts of it. But eventually, the emphasis on Law of Attraction — you know, the whole “you create reality with your thoughts” — got to be too much for me to tolerate. For one thing, anyone past the age of ten should have realized that no, your thoughts do NOT actually influence the universe or the physical events happening around you. Your thoughts only influence your mood. And second, believing that your thoughts DO create reality is the mark of a disordered person. So I ditched that church.

      • My ex really got into the law of attraction. I found a document he wrote after we separated where he talked about “leaving an empty space in his closet so he could envision OW hanging her clothes there, leaving an empty spot at the table so he could envision her sitting at the table with him, sleeping on half the bed and envisioning OW one day sleeping beside him in the new home he’d bought.” He envisioned her leaving her her husband and bringing her two children to the home my ex bought close to her family. As far as I know, it hasn’t worked yet. She’s still with her husband.

        • Lyn
          Sometimes I just wish we didn’t have THAT kind of evidence. I have the poems he wrote the pigs. Why not just get a fucking divorce? Yet it gives us insight into just how sick they are! So sorry. What an asshole.

  • We all of us have free will. It’s what makes all of us have the potential to sin. Sin, therefore, involves choice. While I would accept that all of us are sinners (we choose wrongly so often, and often unconsciously), I call bullshit on this pastor.

    Sure, from a theoretical perspective, any of us could choose adultery.

    However, the Chump turns away from this particular sin; the Cheater embraces it.

    Jesus Cheaters are annoying enough without having their pastors abet their sin.

    • i agree – if a chump chooses to be a good person and make good, healthy decisions, that doesn’t mean we are morally superior. Maybe we are guilty of being loving, supportive, kind and healthy.

      If we choose to leave a cheater, again, that doesn’t mean we are morally superior. Maybe we are just guilty of being strong, wise, and healthy.

      • Perhaps they are just morally inferior? Why should the pastor put a spin on deviance that further devalues the chump?
        Why not, “No one deserves to be in a Relationship with someone who disrespects and abuses them”. Take a fucking stand!! Why would that be so unpopular? If your spouse robbed the church wouldn’t they call the police? Wouldn’t he have to face the consequences of his actions? Being indifferent to suffering and ABUSERS? Call them on that shit!

        • If the pastor were to call the police, I think he would be guilty of being morally superior. Now when that spouse robs the church a second and third and fourth time, well, if you think about it carefully, the pastor too might rob his church many times too, as might everyone in the parish. Let’s close the jails, let all morally equivalent felons free!

  • I think Divorce Minister is wonderful, and should be required reading for all Chumps. Especially those in Reconciliation. The RIC advice is so harmful, and ungodly too, because it encourages you to tolerate sin.

  • I would ask the good Pastor, when was the last time he entertained ideas of infidelity with threesomes and prostitutes, then stood in front of his congregation to spread the good word and help Shepard his congregation towards goodness and truth? In theory then, he is subject to the very same rules also! Hypocrisy!!!!! Find another church and another Pastor who has his head screwed on straight!!

  • Ah, the old “don’t judge” ploy. Who are you to think you are morally superior to someone else, Roaring?


    Hey, I’m not a religious person. The whole thing puts my stomach in knots and makes me feel icky. But as a non-religious person, I would think that a person who honors their marital vows, doesn’t not fuck people other than their spouse, does not take shared resources for crack and whores, does not give their spouse STD’s, etc etc, is in fact the morally superior person! Why aren’t we allowed to say that?

    I’m glad you left the Church of the Everlasting Shit Sandwich. There’s got to be a better church out there where you will find more morally superior people. Yay!

  • Roaring,
    Your hopefully former pastor is a hypocrite. Every person is capable of sin and we should not cast stones lest we be judged ourselves. But there is a big difference between actually committing misdeeds continually, lying about them and not atoning for them.
    If your stbx beat a child this pastor would rebuke him. Can’t pass off hospitalizing minors as a sin to be forgiven easily.
    If your stbx had been implicated in a murder he would have been rebuked. That’s one of those commandments that pastors pay more attention to.
    If he embezzled the church funds you better believe this pastor would rebuke him. If your stbx had slept with his wife or daughter he’d be rebuking him.
    This pastor is the type who only worries about his personal issues or the appearance of his church. He devalues the members of his flock by placing more attention on the specialness of outward appearance.
    But since all your stbx did was break wedding vows to an unimportant member of his flock all his forgiven as long as stbx remains entertaining and you keep your mouth shut about his vileness.
    This is not a religious church but a sanctimonious one.

  • “Feeling self-righteous and morally superior is a big trap. If you think you could never do what he did, there’s a possibility of moral superiority, so try feeling willing to forgive. (STBX) is in trouble. In so many ways, worse off than you. If you can’t help him, stop thinking negatively about him.”

    Honestly, there is more than a tad bit of projection in here, if you ask me.

    Morally superior, much? Oh yeah, CheaterPants is so much worse off, and righteous anger at having been lied to, mistreated, etc is so morally inferior.


    Me thinketh the minister doeth project much.

    You will probably never forgive the acts. Why should you? You will probably go on to not care about them because one day they will not be central to your life, but forgive that crap behaviour? Probably not.

    • Thank you so so much. I want to get to the place where I DO NOT CARE. I cannot express enough how much this site is saving me every day.

      What a gift – sharing with a community of people where I do not feel crazy or ashamed. I have been so ANGRY lately – everyone’s comments are a soothing balm.

      Thank you all.

      • You are not kidding. When I found this place, I was maybe 2 months into the nightmare. I was raw. I don’t think I’d be doing as well as I am today if it wasn’t for coming here and finding rational conversation with my tribe. 🙂

        You’ll get there. Life is good once you get through all the other bullshit.

  • My nuanced theological and moral retort is “fuck that guy”. Certainly we should be measured with our judgements of others’ failings, absolutely, but ignoring the victim baffles me.

    My ex is also so charming and helpful too and I have gotten this response in spades. This minister failed. I can understand people who were mutual friends with your cheater opting out, but this is that asshole’s job.

  • I think the OP choosing to approach a former minister for spiritual support when she already knows he supports her ex’s behaviour, well, that’s just asking for frustration and annoyance. Better to approach a new counsellor who is impartial and preferably non-religious.

    While I am understanding and tolerant of folks’ need for spiritual communion with others, I have never figured out why anyone thinks another human being should be in the elevated position of telling others how to behave. I have had very bad experience with so-called pastors and religious men over the years…contol freaks tend to gravitate to such roles…although there are occasional gems too.

    I would ask the OP…did you approach this minister with the intent of exposing your ex’s shenanigans? It won’t work because to other folks, cheater behaviour is just crude entertainment, like staring at a car crash. This minister clearly does not want to wde into any difficult subject and is just spewing platitudes so he can go back to politicking and socializing and pursuing his own misdeeds. Just like many other so-called pastors I’ve crossed.

    • I believe you are right. I just didn’t want to recognize it. D-Day opened up so many kinds of betrayal – physical, emotional, financial, and now spiritual.

      It’s kind of like an infidelity cleanse (with all the requisite shit).

      I am reinventing literally everything I thought I understood about my life and myself – only I’m not quite there.

      I’m still sort of bouncing off new awarenesses like a pinball machine.

      • “D-Day opened up so many kinds of betrayal – physical, emotional, financial, and now spiritual. It’s kind of like an infidelity cleanse (with all the requisite shit). I am reinventing literally everything I thought I understood about my life and myself – only I’m not quite there. I’m still sort of bouncing off new awarenesses like a pinball machine.”

        Roaring, I think what you just wrote is one of the best and most succinct things I’ve ever read on here. It is fucking overwhelming to reinvent your whole existence, and–yes–that new awareness really does feel like a pinball machine at first (beautiful phrasing, btw). I’m a little over 2 years out, and I’m just now getting to the point of having it all make some sort of sense. Hugs to you.

      • Give yourself a pass Roaring. Of course you went to your former Pastor. Last place you should have expected moral ambiguity. This was the person (and the congregation were the people) who should have been able to comprehend your pain and anger, not treat it as an inconvenience.

        You are right. The continued support of your cheater ex, while at the same time berating you for judging your abuse as abuse (because that would be being morally superior – what!?!) is nothing less than betrayal. I wish you hadn’t had to suffer that, on top of the ongoing nightmare with STBX.

        I hope your ex-pastor notices your absence and questions himself about his attitude to you (though, we’ve all grown to learn that some folks will excuse themselves for just about anything).

  • I’ve always been against the argument “since it occurs relatively frequently, it must be normal and OK, and thus victims of it must seek to understand and forgive.”

    That line of thinking is pervasive in the cheater community, in the reconciliation industry, and probably with many a marriage counselor.

    • Major Cheaterpants told me that destroying families with affairs “happens every day” thus it isnt a big deal. I told him that ax-murdering happens every day but that doesnt make it not a big deal.

      • Or as Esther Perel might say “Sexual boredom and frustration, or plain sexlessness, can lead to ax-murdering, or what Steven Mitchell dubs “acts of exuberant defiance.”
        Sometimes, we seek to ax-murder not because we reject our partner, but because we are tired of ourselves. It isn’t our partner we aim to leave when we murder with axes, rather the person we’ve become. Even more than the quest for a new victim to hack we want a new self.”

        (disclaimer: this a satire/parody based on an article from Steven Mitchell’s dub dubbed out of context)

  • Hey, my ex didn’t need any pastor. He was “counseling” the whore himself, lol. Referring her to Christian references for her and her brat. The only thing that might have helped that nasty bitch was an exorcism.

  • One point I left off this column and wish I had included — why is it that we’re supposed to imagine being a cheater (hey! anyone can do it!) yet no one can imagine being a chump. (You must’ve known. You drove them to cheat.)

    “Misbehaving” is easy to imagine. Being conned? No one wants to think they’re vulnerable or could be duped.

    • Gawd. That is so insightful and so true. And it hit a nerve. NO ONE wants to imagine what it would feel like to be so betrayed. YET we are constantly told to Forgive! Move On! Date! Just Let It Go! Aren’t You Over It Yet? Well It’s Partly Your Fault. The Sex Was Dead Right? And we are asked What Did You Do To Make Him/Her? But no one, no one wants for one second to imagine the pain and embarrassment and shame that comes with discovering adultery.

      Outside of CN, I feel alone in what I am dealing with. But infidelity is everywhere. It permeates our society. So, it’s ok, right? No. Not ever.

    • Excellent point.

      One of my goals in marriage therapy post D-Day was for her to understand what I went through. The marriage counselor would stop me in my tracks and say “if you want to blame her, then we will just start a never ending cycle of blame.” But my goal wasn’t to blame her, it was to tell my story so she could understand what I went through. But I was only allowed to say things like “I felt sad. I felt angry.” The therapist would then ask me to explore my sadness.

      I never felt she came close to empathy or understanding what I went through. She was too focused on her drama, her courage (to have an affair), her heartbreak (affair didn’t work out so well). My pain was always secondary. Not even secondary, non-existent actually.

      • I hope you divorced the cheat?

        In MC I wanted a full reveal. MC backed up Ex desire NOT to reveal. I knew we were doomed. My ex is a secret keeper, its his raison d’etre.

      • I hear you, Buddy. That’s one of my issues, too, and she doesn’t want to or is unable to understand where I’m coming from. The counselors have only been a partial help.She wants to stay living in the house ’til April (D-Day was just over a month ago), and I’m freaking out.

        • Oaktree – please do NOT leave your home of residence. Make her leave!! The best counsellors, I found, are right here on C/N.

      • I can never imagine what it’s like to be a cheater or to pick up a married man without a care in the world. Yet, we, the abused are labeled as being bitter.
        Just maybe if we live better we can change these perceptions one chump at a time. I’m inspired here by kick ass chumps who get to Meh.

        What I CAN imagine is the cheater forever cycling through used up whores to stoke his ego. Endlessly seeking something he can never achieve. Peace.

        Every ounce of pain I had to go through to rid myself of his toxic personality was worth it.

    • Can not count how many times I have had to explain to someone the reason they are giving Narkles a pass by saying “how could you not know?” and “weren’t there signs?” is that they’re protecting themselves mentally and emotionally because they’re basically saying if there were not signs and I really had no idea that it could happen to anyone. some friends have examined themselves and admitted that yeah, they don’t want to believe it could happen to anyone smart and with it and who has their shit together because if that is the case then if could happen to them. Others still want to buy into the codependency and how I must have known crap. Do you know what I call them? Easy answer – I don’t.

      • I don’t get the “you must have known” argument. Regardless of what you knew when, they still did what they did, and they knew what they did was wrong, and regardless of being suspicious or not being suspicious, once you know the truth you had to deal with a horrible traumatic event.

        Are these types trying to see “since you didn’t investigate more or cut if off sooner, you were therefore giving permission” – that makes no sense, unless you explicitly agreed to an open marriage, which you clearly did not.

      • I admit there were signs, but my ex explained them away. My gut was screaming at me, but I’d been conditioned for so long to ignore it and to believe his words…even my counselor asked me why I stayed so long. It wasn’t like I walked in on him with another woman. He was running around with a woman he WORKED with. How could I have stopped that? Bought tickets and sat between them on the airplane? Insisted that I chaperone their many business trips and meetings? Try to spy on them in-between shuttling kids to soccer games?

        If I’d been sure he was cheating I sure as hell wouldn’t have stayed and kept trying to connect to him. Sometimes I wish I’d have walked in on him with OW because it would have been clear cut.

        One time Chumplady said it’s like the cheater is trying to force you to “shoot something you love.” I loved my family more than anything else in the world and would have done just about anything to keep us together. I’d experienced what it’s like to live with the consequences of cheating and abandonment, and was determined to not let that happen to us. So weird that the thing we most fear happens anyway. Sometimes I wonder if that fear is what brings it about.

    • Oh, CL, that scratched every nerve ending that I have. Being conned/duped is the most debilitating aspect of this whole thing. And people say to me, “You are an intelligent professional. How could you miss this?” I love that, eh? Yes, I missed it. Was too busy running the house and yard, looking after the pet, doing grocery lists, volunteering, running my business, paying bills and keeping household books. Yeah. Shoot me. I missed it. Big miss. Bottom of the 9th, bases loaded, tie game, the ball coming straight for me and I dropped it. Crap!

      And friends (loose term sometimes), relatives, the church, society, the media (an entity unto itself) all rub my nose in it with their arrogant belief that this can’t happen to them. SO I become the embodiment of the reminder that it CAN, and that you don’t have to be stupid and incompetent for it to visit your door. “But you look good and are in good shape and have a sense of humour”, they chirp. Yes, and I lived with a disordered person and became disordered in my own ways (hyer-vigilant, avoidant, dependent, uncentered, without confidence). And I must have made him do it. Have I got it right? That’s right, isn’t it? I made him con me and embarrass the crap out me until I was a quivering mass. Okay. I’ve got it. I did it. Gee, I’m sorry. Should I issue a press release? I’ll get right on that.

      • Virago – I count myself very lucky because I don’t recall anyone ever saying to my face ‘you must have known’. That’s not to say they might not have thought it -but I’m guessing the murderous look on my face directly after D Day probably told them – ‘Even imply it, and I’ll rip your throat out’!

        • I think my BFF asked me that. She was not accusatory but rather stunned that since I am “smart and pretty and happy in my marriage” surely his behavior would have changed and I would have noticed. But I didn’t. She too wanted to believe ex was incapable of such betrayal. She had on blinders with me because she knew him as I did back then.

        • Jayne, the old ‘rip your throat out’ procedure. Wish I hadn’t slept though the class on how to do that. Would have been a lovely bit of information!

          conniered, could we just shake them until their eyeballs knock everyone else’ s blinders right off them? (that makes sense if you think of Bugs Bunny and the Roadrunner and Ajax Co. eyeballs imported from China!)

          Or we could just tell them, “I am smart, pretty, in good shape and have a sense of humour, and I believe you are an idiot!”

    • My soon to be x is always telling me, I could had very easy been in his situation and done the same. There is no one that is perfect, & we all make mistakes . ?

      He also has said if roles were reversed held have no trouble forgiving me & moving on together cuz that’s how much he loves me. Do I trust that???? No way.
      5 yrs later of living apart. I can’t even let him know if I’m seeing someone, as he would freak and I would lose $ support.

      Yeah they all thinks cheating is something that happens, they just don’t think what it’s like if it happens to them.

      • Oh Eileen, SAME.

        I asked MoFaux what he would think if I had an affair with my building manager (cute, smart, hunky) and he gave me some rambling prose re initial shock, expectation that I would have discussed the situation FIRST, then thought further and decided, “Then I would think to myself, I will always love this woman and want her to be happy and I would give you my blessing and hope that we could be friends”.

        “This woman”. How come this reminds re of Bill C. “I never had sex with that woman.”

        How fucking magnanimous!

        CN has taught me well. If his lips (or the keys on his keyboard) are moving, he’s lying!

  • wowza. Sounds like a pastor who is so desperate to save everyone that he doesn’t know how to proceed. If cheater is remorseful and looks to God, and the pastor has shamed or rebuked him, it might turn this soul from the lord and then it’s on the minister, because his human flaw of aiding the wronged person might put off the sociopaths itsy bitsy feelers. He is so worried that God must be using him in a big way to mend you and your spouses heart, he is forgetting one thing… Evil exists. I’m not one for God stuff, truth be told. But I totally think evil is sometimes a thing. And satan is doing a sic job of keeping the blinders on this shepherd. Poor bastard. What a chump. The fall of him suggesting you just put on your forgiveness superpower suit and whiz around righting all the wrong the man has done to your heart. Yes, getting rid of your anger or sadness would be good for you. But it’s not for him. Yeah. Don’t even know what my real point is, I’m just bummed.

  • I am sorry to hear how horribly this Pastor has missed the mark and missed the opportunity to reach a Believer.
    I am guessing that this Pastor is also completely against homosexuality, as it is against biblical teaching. So when he judges others, maybe he needs to be reminded he could maybe become gay. No? Didn’t think so.

    He chose a wimpy way out to address a difficult topic. Not someone I would want to be teaching me about right, wrong and salvation.

    Time to leave a cheater, gain a life. And…
    Leave a Pastor, gain a new church/life.

  • My pastor was great. I did not have to tell him anything beyond the fact that ex was sneaking around with an unmarried woman behind my back and lying about it. I didn’t get the ” It’s just an Emotional Affair” shit some people hear.

    He said it was wrong. He said ex should stop, and if he didn’t I should not tolerate it. He didn’t say divorce, but I’m sure that is what he meant. Of course I didn’t listen. Went to the RIC instead, for a few more years of horse shit

  • I’m so glad to have read this. After I discovered my ex’s affair, part of her gaslighting justification was that, in years past, my “traditional monogamist” thinking had prevented me from sleeping with any of my sexy colleagues, which my ex “wouldn’t have minded.” She berated me for not taking advantage of my lost opportunities; I could have enjoyed the same thrill that she had now found if I’d only been more open-minded. I found myself accepting her insistently argued assertion because I really was attracted to those women, and theoretically would have enjoyed sleeping with them.
    But I never did.
    And realistically, I never would have.
    And that makes all the difference.

    • Exactly, if I fucked every guy I had an attraction to during my 17 year marriage, the numbers would have been legion. There is a big difference between noticing someone is beautiful to you (or hot) and deciding to have sex outside your exclusive relationship. Love, is that it? Yes, and loyalty and integrity, ethics, honesty and love.

    • Completely agree HighGrounder + Dat –

      My Ex… YES, Xmas came early, my divorce is done CN, thank you for all the support and laughter as I dragged that sucker all the way to the finish line :)!!! But I digress…

      My Ex and I talked about how important monogamy was to both of us BEFORE getting hitched. Throughout our decade together, we even sometimes joked about temptations and not acting on them…

      Funny how after I found out about his affair with a stoompie half his age, his tune changed to “I was never really monogamous, but I knew how important it was to you…”

      Really?! Well Oscar-worthy performance asshole, somehow I wish you had came out with your monogamish tendencies when we talked about it pre-wedding…

  • “It is next to impossible to forgive someone who is actively sinning against you.” This line from DM really stood out to me — mainly because it applies so much to where I am right now. I think my wife wants me to forgive and forget, but she’s still running around with her AP and still hiding her other life from me. And if I ask questions, then I’m invading her privacy.

    It’s things like this that help me realize that I need to find a way out.

    • Please do. You deserve so much better.

      Its hard initially, line up a good support network, see an attorney now, without her knowing and set up the ambush. Learn the law. If you have minor kids, start documenting who does the care, the responsibility etc. If its her, step up where ever you can.

      Your spouse is a mind fuck you need to lose.

    • OMG! The next time that lying, cheating wife of yours tells you “you’re invading her privacy,” tell her that you’re questioning her secrecy, not invading her privacy. Everyone is entitled to some privacy, not secrecy.

      • I just re-read some old texts from X. In one he advocated “not telling people our private marital business.” Yeah, ‘cept fucking myriad other people, and flirting ostentatiously in front of our friends is no longer “private marital business.”

        • Not to mention all the Private Marital Business these losers shared with whores. At least my ex did. That’s the only reason i found out anything about the whore, as a payback.

  • Wow….. Talk about false religions! My spouse didnt not find that answer. She was told you broke your vows and covenant and he has every right to give you your walking papers! Thats the kind of response real churches should give. The Chump is in CHARGE!!!!!! The cheater has given up their rights to anything!!!

  • Please print off all the column here and comments and place in the collection plate on Sunday.In a big sharpie – write ‘my husband cheated, and this is the advice I got’. Everyone should be able to read it including the kids.

    Expose this hypocrite.

    So you must go to the church one last time.

    Minimum requirement: You must dress all in Red. Shoes too. Preferably come fuck me shoes. The purpose is to be eye candy to this hypocrite of a pastor. If he approaches you the Line is ‘not if you were the last man on earth and survival of the human race depended on it’. ‘Because some of us will never cheat.’ A statement of fact, not arrogance.

    If you ex is around. All you will do it first point, then flip off with that beautiful manicured middle digit.

    Arrange for someone you know to have a bouquet of flowers and hand them to you as you gracefully exit this hell pit. Feel free to yell, ‘This is a pit of hypocrisy!’

  • I am going to reply today and I hope it makes sense, because really, this shit and these “faux” Christians make my ass hurt.

    As human beings, we are all potentially any number of things. I’m potentially an ax murderess. I’m potentially a saint. It is my moral compass, my integrity and my character which will determine my behavior that will create one of those things (or any number of things in between) as the reality of who I am.

    If you listen to some of these people, we are supposed to forgive any egregious, horrible, despicable thing anyone might to do to us in order to “free ourselves” from the chains that supposedly not forgiving them keeps us confined, otherwise we’re being supercilious and judgmental. To paraphrase Roberta, “you say that as if that’s a bad thing.”

    I’ve had this argument with people. To suggest that you are acting “morally superior” and “not forgiving” is an attempt to put you on the defensive and to have you behave in a way that will make other people feel comfortable and not have to examine their own choices and behavior. First of all, you’re not judging. You’re making an informed opinion about someone based on available information. If you consistently rob banks, I’m going to “judge” you to be a bank robber. If I’m on a jury, I’m probably going to “judge” that you spend some time incarcerated. Is that being “unforgiving” or holding you accountable? In order to carry on the way he did, your Cheater lied to you, betrayed you and endangered you. I’m going to say “judging” him as untrustworthy (and a pig from hell) is rational and intelligent. In church a couple of weeks ago, the priest was very clear about mercy being tied to judgment/consequences. Mercy is what keeps judgment/consequences from becoming cruelty. Nowhere in the bible these people purport to follow are absolution from consequences for behavior. Mercy and forgiveness come in the aftermath of consequences and repentance, not in its stead – and it doesn’t have to come from us. I’m not in the consequence business; I’m in the self-protection, self-care business. If the fallout from that are consequences to Cheater Ex and his Disordered Concubine, too bad, so sad.

    Your minister needs to learn to recognize the difference being morally superior and being moral, period. Apparently, he was out sick when that class was being taught.

  • I am not religious and do not belong to a church. I read Chump Lady regularly~love you~can relate to many columns. For some reason, this letter really tears me up. Of all the places to get a bitch slap down!

  • The rhetoric of religion–“turning over a new leaf,” “being transformed,”seeing the light,”–and a hundred other phrases is exactly the kind of language narcissist’s love to spout. They have visions, epiphanies, spiritual insights and a load of other hooey that simply equates to “believe what I say in the face of all evidence to the contrary.” I think this makes it hard for a lot of sincere people of religious persuasions to turn their backs on narcissists. Good Christians are SUPPOSED to believe in miraculous change–God works in mysterious ways, etc. etc.

    The church my EX and I were attending actually agreed to fund his sojourn to seminary after we split up–despite the fact that the minister knew a lot of unsavory details about his very recent behavior. It was kind of like sponsoring a pedophile to start teaching kindergarten. I left the congregation (seeing him weekly would have been bad enough–the idea of sitting in the pews while he preached was simply ridiculous–they’d have had to drag me out while I shrieked with hysterical laughter every time he opened his mouth).

    But, eventually, he was asked to leave (and has found his way both in and out of several different churches since then). The karma bus does show up; unfortunately, it has so very many stops to make that it can take a darn long time. I expect the church that accepts Roaring’s EX will live to regret their decision.

    Roaring, however, won’t regret her decision to move on.

  • Trying to explain the faulty logic of these types of defenses to cheaters is like trying to explain the concept of physics to roadkill.

    They wouldn’t understand it, and it’s too late anyway!


    • I wasted a little wine, sephage. (please note it is dinner time where I am!)
      Flipping brilliant explanation of the skein of fuckedupedness.
      Many gold stars, man.

      • Virago – sorry! 🙂 I’ve got enough wine to pickle every commentator here twice over, so hopefully some day I can repay you the spilled amount, with interest!

  • Just a quick note on moral superiority:

    I didn’t leave my wife because I’m morally superior to her. I left her because I couldn’t trust her.

    Once, a few weeks after I filed for divorce, we met to talk. She said, “I hate the way you look at me; it’s like you think I’m a bad person.”

    But I didn’t, at least then. I was just devastated and hurt, and I knew that I deserved faithfulness. That’s “how” I was looking at her. There was a person who “was not” who I bought I married, repeatedly cheating on me. I didn’t look at her as if I were better than her. And, chump that I was, I told her that.

    It was only later, when she still refused to end her cheating/home wrecking ways that I realized I felt morally superior. It was later, when I could look back with a clear head and accept all the ways she tricked me.

    My point is that “moral superiority” had NOTHING to do with my decision to divorce my cheating wife. I left because there was nothing worth saving.

    The very definition of a chump is someone who DOESN’T feel superior. That’s why we don’t cheat, and that’s why we have such a hard time letting go when our spouses do cheat.

    • “My point is that “moral superiority” had NOTHING to do with my decision to divorce my cheating wife. I left because there was nothing worth saving.” That was definitely true in my case too, JC. He didn’t want to save anything. And I am grateful because I would have been Chumpy for a little longer than I was.

      However, later, when I got the unapologetic apology (I’m sorry you got hurt), I did feel morally superior. I sure did. Because I was. I also got some closure with him. I was able to say to him, “I chose you everyday. After you gained 50 lbs. I chose you. And when I didn’t like you that day. I chose you. And when we argued. I still chose you. I. Chose. You.”

      • What the fuck is it with that line??? “I’m sorry you’re hurt (or got hurt)”. It’s dripping with the unspoken cheater mantra “it’s not my fault”. They aren’t sorry. Sorry is as sorry does. Assholes.

  • OK, I was trying to wrap my head around the whole “in theory, you’re a cheater, too” argument when my lawyer brain kicked in and yelled “You can’t convict someone of thinking about killing another person, you can only convict someone who actually does kill another person!” So, to Roaring’s Minister: NOPE! The difference between a cheater and a non-cheater is the former actually cheated and the latter, while maybe thinking about it, did not cheat…no “theory” about it! The minister’s attempt to make Roaring feel on the same level as her STBX is beyond my comprehension! The Bible’s pretty full of lists of what’s “right” and what’s “wrong.” If Minister doesn’t want to lose STBX from his flock either he has “judged” Roaring to be of less value than STBX or he’s more politician than minister…

    • Hi,

      I would like to ask why do we have to feel humiliated? We did nothing wrong. So many women say they are humiliated by the cheater’s behaviour, I do not. Hurt and anger like I have never known but I am not humiliated, he humiliated himself and lost anyone that means anything to me, respect, including his two grown up children. He is not even with this woman now, like I said to him it was the most expensive F… of his life he didn’t just loose his business, home etc he lost me his wife of 25 years and his two kids but I told him F… About and you will never be back in my life, he obviously thought denying it and saying sorry would change my mind, it didn’t. I am 3 years out and I still have angry days but like I said I have NOTHING to feel humiliated about unless being a decent good faithful wife is wrong.

  • I am very fortunate that I confided in two Catholic priests and they both told me (separate meetings) to divorce the cheating asshole.

    Am I capable of cheating? Hmm. Let’s see. I was married to a serial cheater for over 20 years and yet, not once, not even in my weakest and darkest moments, did it occur to me to cheat. So, I guess I can’t cheat. Imagine that.

  • I dislike how they combine the sex with the deceit.

    I liked kinky sex. It’s not about the threesomes, or the sex at all. Cheating is about selfishness, power and entitlement.

    It was my STBXH who minimized what he liked to me and emailed his ex-GF right after we were married to start right back up with her via email (nothing in person, that is too hard to control — I said I wasn’t sure/didn’t like some things and rather than find solutions respectfully he contemptuously cheated).

    I would never be sexual with another man without telling my husband. I would never lie by omission that I was emailing erotica to my ex — because then I’m in a relationship with that person now, and I had promised myself to my husband.

    If the threesome is, consensually, the husband and wife and someone else — that’s just non-mainstream. It was that the wife was excluded by the cheating husband.

    I am not capable of that sort of dishonesty. I am not capable of lying to someone I love.

  • Several years before I knew with certainty that I was married to a cheater, I approached my minister and explained that I was contemplating divorce because I was so unhappy in my marriage due to what I later realized was extreme emotional abuse. Since I took my marriage vows seriously, I was having a lot of cognitive dissonance about the “till death” clause.

    My minister listened to me, and then told me, “You are not the only one who took vows. He promised to love, honor and cherish you. It doesn’t sound as if you were ever cherished.” He didn’t counsel me to leave or stay, but he did tell me that I deserved to be cherished in marriage.

    And this is the crux of all of our marital woes, Chumps. We were never, ever cherished, or the lies and secrets and abuse and cheating could not have happened.

  • Two things:

    1. Anyone can be honest and faithful, too, so don’t feed us the “anyone could cheat” bullshit.

    2. I don’t feel morally superior, I feel morally WHOLE. There is a big, big difference.

    Methinks Mr. Minister Man may be putting up smoke screens in his head to shield himself from his own transgressions or taking a big bite of the shit sandwich after his wife’s.

    • Another way to look at this:

      If you didn’t cheat, then by your actions you probably are, in fact, morally superior. If you then adopt a stance that the other person is somehow less human, then you’ve got a problem (IMHO). If not, then there’s nothing excluding forgiveness (if you want to pursue that – personally, I don’t) while also acknowledging that you have the higher moral ground by virtue of fact.

      So, I think this minister is confusing the facts with possible repercussions, which is, in my view, just plain stupid.

  • What’s the difference between cheating and having the potential to cheat? The CHOICE to cheat, of course.

    Cheaters don’t want to own their bad choices, or the fact that other people make better choices. So they take choice out of the equation and pretend it doesn’t exist. Denying agency: it’s a wonderful tool for denying reality.

  • Damn, Brit! My ex said that to me All. The. Time. Word for word. A sick warning, perhaps? And I was just too dense to get it. Maybe that’s why, in the end, after years of mindfuckery, he looked me straight in they eyes and said, in the coldest, flattest way: “You’re so easy.”

  • “Feeling self-righteous and morally superior is a big trap. If you think you could never do what he did, there’s a possibility of moral superiority, so try feeling willing to forgive.” He is in trouble and in so many ways, worse off than you. “If you can’t help him, stop thinking negatively about him.”

    These words speak volumes to cultural views surrounding “Cheating,” – lying, secrets and living a parallel life. (While your partner remains unaware). After all its EP’s “exuberant Defiance,” and DS. “Monogamish,” entitlements, to feel, “one Up,” controlling free-movement behind your partners back. It’s simply individual rights and if you expose that behavior you are “Puritanical,” and man that’s simply, “not cool.”

    The Padre here maybe wants to keep his own ‘exuberant defiance options,’ – open.

    He wants to stay hip to the Sturm and Drang of reckless ambivalence, stop creating those lines in the sand and stop thinking so negatively about lying, secrets and deceit…man chill. You need to forgive because it may be you, doing this too……..

    He may already have images of being the prodigal returning to his own wife one day. But you can bet if his she cheats he’d squeal like a stuck pig, crying over the the lines and defending HIS moral superiority. Because he can cheat, but she can’t. Yeah, right being self-righteous and morally superior is such a big trap. But what happens when the hunter gets captured by the game?

  • Hi,

    I would like to ask why do we have to feel humiliated? We did nothing wrong. So many women say they are humiliated by the cheater’s behaviour, I do not. Hurt and anger like I have never known but I am not humiliated, he humiliated himself and lost anyone that means anything to me, respect, including his two grown up children. He is not even with this woman now, like I said to him it was the most expensive F… of his life he didn’t just loose his business, home etc he lost me his wife of 25 years and his two kids but I told him F… About and you will never be back in my life, he obviously thought denying it and saying sorry would change my mind, it didn’t. I am 3 years out and I still have angry days but like I said I have NOTHING to feel humiliated about unless being a decent good faithful wife is wrong.

  • Well I honestly thought I’d never cheat after having it done to me but I have….I dont know why I did it and I don’t want to leave my husband I wish I could turn the clock back to last week and not do it……I have to tell him now and I don’t know how because I know how it felt when I found out my first husband did it to me. Why oh why did I give in to my feelings

    • You don’t belong here. No sympathy for cheaters especially since you know what it feels like. My 30 year marriage officially ended in divorce today. Go away!

        • Wow so your all perfect on here are you? Get real this life is not mills and boon and most marriages don’t make it. I’ve read the posts and you all want woe is me sympathy so wake up. People cheat some get found out and some don’t end of. I now have felt both sides of the story and have some understanding why it happens you don’t, or so you say anyway. I can tell you one thing though it has nothing to do with children. Cheating happens because an opportunity arises and you think you can get away with it, not because you don’t love someone. But sex brings feelings and before you know it you are in one hell of a mess. Until you have experienced both sides you will only know one side so don’t comment on why its done as you don’t know!

          • Black sheep black sheep have you any brains? No one is perfect. This is a site for healing for the chumped not to give sympathy to one who knows what it feels like and does the same thing. Your right cheaters cheat can they can and damn the consequences! They don’t cheat because if the kids just in spite of. Want to fuck anyone you feel like, fine don’t get married or into a committed relationship. We told you nice once take your need for kibbles elsewhere nicely. Now fuck off she said nicely.

          • “Cheating happens because you think you can get away with it”! Well, NOT everyone is morally capable of taking that risk to break another’s heart! Yes it’s not because you don’t love them it’s because You don’t RESPECT them! Or Yourself! Plenty of people have opportunities they are just mature enough Not to cross the line! Cheating is a very cowardly act! And YES it has everything to do with children! It crushes them emotionally! Some people are better than others on this earth, cheaters just hate to accept that to justify their actions! You might be a wonderful person (or any cheater for that matter) in other aspects of your life! BUT in this you and every cheater failed miserably !

          • Knowing what was done to you, HOW could you do it to another? Opportunity? Oh please many people have opportunity and are mature enough not to cross that line! Love maybe, Respect definitely NOT. For your spouse or yourself! Not even for the ap! Cheaters do it because they think they won’t get caught!!! Well newsflash that’s disgusting! NOT everyone is capable of this ! Only cheaters say ” don’t judge until your in my position to justify their actions! That’s like saying I can be a terrible person and it’s ok with me. Unless I get caught! Cheaters need to take self inventory! But they don’t it feels better! And as far as the children They HURtT the most! Yes maybe in other parts of your life you are a good person?? But you failed miserably at Loyalty! Some people on this earth ARE better than others! Sorry!

      • Welcome to the New World, kar marie! It wasn’t the happiest day of my life at all. But, it did change it. Wishing you all the best.

        • Not my happiest day either. But I didn’t cry. I just treated him with complete and total indifference. I’m proud of myself. Thank you.

          • Well, you have much more personal dignity than I, kar marie. I sat and stared and stared at those papers and bawled and bawled that day….and kept drinking margaritas. Then started to make, yanno – those drinking and dialing convos you wish you could remember. Sobbing mess I was. And, that was it. I really haven’t cried much since.

            • I surprised myself actually thought I would be a blubbering mess. He complained for two hours in the courtroom about the wait. I turned to him and said I don’t like waiting either asshole shut the fuck up! He ended up spending the whole day with me way more upset than I was moaning and complaining aches and pains. I again told him not my problem get over yourself and bitch to someone else. He is still agonizing over going back to the whore he left me for who calls him everyday begging him to come back. She’s amped it up big time. My comment you are telling me this why? I don’t fucking care anymore. Go back to her and get out of my face! The son of a bitch really doesn’t want to let go!! I shocked myself being so indifferent. After I got out of the courtroom for the first time I just didn’t care about him or what happens to him. I said to myself now he can’t hurt me anymore! Quite freeing actually. The light is finally on at the end of the tunnel!

              • I didn’t see the light AT ALL on divorce-day. Only heartbreak and a future I was so unsure of. I was completely embarrassed that I had failed a 35 yr relationship AND WHY it did! ugh. . . and, had to remind myself, HE failed, not me. It’s been a long uphill battle ever since. It took a long time to un-love the asshole and, of course, untrusting of all that history. And, those feelings will probably last forever. I was one who he never looked back on, never tried to change the course of things – hell, he made me do it all. Coward!

                Right now, I have such utter contempt for him that I can’t quite imagine why I loved him. I loved who he was for a long time, but I didn’t know him. And, when he dumped the dogs, that was my last straw.

                He can go fuck an Anteater, like he’s probably doing anyway.

              • I’m so sorry she chump, I expected to feel just like you did today. Why I didn’t I don’t know. I will always love the man I fell in love with and married. But he turned on me badly and I finally saw him for truly who he is. A relationship destroying monster. Any relationship he puts nothing into, dad, friend, son, brother, anything. He just doesn’t think he has to do anything to maintain them. I felt I failed him for the longest time but I didn’t. He didn’t want to put in the effort, he knows he’s fucked up in the head but does nothing to fix himself, too bad he says he’s the way he is and everyone else has to deal with it and if they don’t like it fuck them! No fuck him and his family sees what he does and no longer plays his game. The five year old man whore is just not a good person. His guilt is killing him. Too bad, so sad, I gave it my best, I gave it my all and for these fuckers nothing is ever enough. I won’t hate him, to hate someone you have to think about them. Too much real estate, the best revenge is living well and I intend to. Future, very scary, for the very first time in my sixty years I’ve always put others before myself I can know do for me. I want to start a group when I move for the chumped out there, only we understand. Hugs to you!

              • Thanks for your helpful words, kar marie! I was VERY proud of myself that I never ever begged this man or put my dignity in his hands. I guess I was pretty hard-balled at first, rightly so. And, honestly, to be married to a Narc, you have to develop a really hard shell to get along with them and not let them control you. So, I was good at that – hey, we had a nice balance. Have NO idea who could ever live with his control issues, but he’s not my problem anymore.

                I was also going to add I hate him, and glad I didn’t, because I don’t really. Funny, how I’ve got to the point where I almost feel sorry for him. He was a chameleon businessman and friend and marriage partner. Very good at what he did, like so many here have written about their Narcs. He could be a farmer to a group, an oil derrick to another group, a Wall Street executive the next week, a family-man/best neighbor another. Oh, these people are GOOD. And, he faked being my husband. He used me to get where he is. Whether consciously or not, I don’t know. But, I DO know, he never wound up with any friends. I have all the friends. He skulked out of town, once a big proud rich fish in a small sea, and he’s afraid to come back because his image is destroyed.

                Well, I can hold my head up.
                I’ll never forget phoning his best friend during this time, his ONE friend from high school – our accountant. And, he said. Well, yanno SheChump, I never really knew Greg that well. He’s never opened up much.

                Well, that sure tells you.

                Oh, I’m so looking forward to getting out of this ghost house and into my own and leaving him in his dust of chameleon lizards.

              • Because he fucked me over in way many more ways than cheating that’s why I spew. You don’t like what’s said here, just leave!

  • One thing you all don’t realise is that all your name calling and spite and well I so told him is totally pointless ! HE DOESNT CARE !!!

  • Cheating should be a crime when they steal your money, give your car and your credit cards away to the whore and expose your spouse to STDs from multiple sex partners with no safe sex you dumb bunny. And yes I can vent, scream, curse, wail and say anything I want here. I was never mean to my ex, I loved, supported him through thick and thin, hardly ever fought with him, had a pretty decent life til he cheated and turned on me! So don’t pretend to know me and how i feel. I kissed the top of his head sent him on his way told him go and be happy and leave me be. You came here moaning about what you did and expected sympathy? Fuck off, yes, yes I said fuck off!!!

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