Coming From a “Place of Rage” — or Lucidity?
Yesterday, HoustonDad posted this comment on a letter I answered where the poster was wondering if her cheating ex was truly remorseful and if she should take him back. HoustonDad wrote:
I understand justifiable anger but should we here give advice to someone else from a position of anger over our own situation? That’s why this might not be the place to ask for advice on a lot of things but rather a place to vent that anger. Case in point, I don’t recall ever seeing anyone here suggest that someone give their wayward spouse another chance. Every single time a question is posed like the author of this letter posed, the advice they get is to immediately dump the other person as harshly as possible. The responses are always coming from a place of rage but not rage for the [poster’s] situation but rather rage being projected from their own situation.
This comment makes several assumptions.
a) That the advice Chump Nation gives couldn’t possibly be useful, or on target, because it is clouded by “rage.” All CN advice comes from a “position of anger.”
b) That rage is being projected on to innocent “waywards.”
c) That no one here ever suggests giving cheaters another chance.
By dignifying this with a response, I wonder if I am solidifying the narrative that CN are a bunch of rabid bitter bunnies?
Gee, Chump Lady I just said you’re rage-y, don’t get so huffy. Did your blood pressure rise? See! You’re an angry harridan unleashing your venom onto mistaken, timid forest creatures who mean you no harm! Who just want to huddle in the glow of your anger and warm their sodden little mittens over the flame of your wrath. Why do you shun them? Can’t you see they’re cold and cast off and so very alone? Why must you judge? Everyone makes mistakes! Forgive! Don’t hold on to anger!
(Forehead smack.)
Let me just go over the mission statement here at Chump Lady again for the newbies — “Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life” (also the title of the new book… shameless plug…) It’s not a reconciliation site. The interwebz are full of reconciliation sites. There are many, many online campfires where “waywards” can huddle up and toast their sad sausage weiners. This is not one of them.
I realize that people who are in reconciliation read here to “stiffen their spine” and get better with boundaries. That’s great. If you really have a unicorn, and want to invest in that, God bless. The point of this site, however, is to support those who do NOT have reconciliation unicorns AND to provide much-needed skepticism about unicorns.
There’s value in knowing whether or not you have a unicorn or a jackass. Alas, there are far more asses in the world than unicorns. Pointing that out logically, analytically, and at times with gusto, doesn’t make a commentator “clouded by rage” but shining with lucidity.
How would we know the difference between unicorns and asses? Experience. When chumps see a unicorn, they are not “projecting their experience” and see an ass instead — no, they have actually experienced jackasses. No projecting required. Chumps can describe in full detail what asses look like (they blameshift, they love bomb, they feel very sorry for themselves, it’s all about them…) and what unicorns look like (rare humble creatures).
If you don’t believe in asses (everyone makes mistakes!), then maybe every ass looks like a unicorn to you.
If you were really hoping for a unicorn, and everyone here is telling you it looks like an ass — I’m sorry you’re disappointed, but this is the collective wisdom pool here on jackasses. We ran the Breeder’s Cup. We’ve been intimately acquainted with the breed for decades.
Still don’t believe us? That’s fine. There are many online fairy forests who report unicorn sitings. Some will charge you $399 and bring the unicorn to you.
But what reconcilers and cheaters apologists may NOT do on my site is run down the people who are giving you their heart-felt advice. Someone takes the time out of their life to write back to you and help you, even smack you up the head with a 2×4 of “GIRLFRIEND! RUN!” — thank this person. Even if you do not agree with them. Even if you’re not ready to hear it. Even if you think they are completely wrong and you are utterly exceptional. They cared enough to answer you straight.
Many places will hold your hand and peddle false hope about unicorns. “I see one in the misty forest! He’s coming home! Stand faithful!” I am not that place. I think it’s far kinder to devastate you with the truth and speed up your healing and get you back out there into the world. I’ll hold your hand if you want to rebuild your life. Got plenty of time for that.
Now then, to the rest of that nonsense…
Would the people who didn’t give their cheaters A Single Chance please raise their hands?
You never begged, pleaded, implored them to come to their senses, did counseling, begged for counseling, had a second D-Day, or third, or 35th. You never once cared what your cheater was feeling or asked why they did this or gave them a chance to explain and make it better…
A show of hands, chumps!
Oh right, that would be none of you.
Almost 3 years of second chances after DDay. Another maybe 6 months after asking him to leave the house. No more second chances. On to divorce and meh!!!
https://m.reddit.com/r/adultery/
Check this out if you want to see how “remorseful” these things are.
WOOAHH, that’s quite a 2×4 Tony, gosh these people are disgusting!
Every post i read over there could have been written by my sneaky SOB ex.
Thanks, Tony, for the reminder that CN really is my tribe. I’ll take raw honesty over sparkly turds any day.
Omg look at the posts they have over there. This one is laughable!! Npd. Makes me livid that they actually believe this.
Outside of being a degenerate adulterer, I’m basically perfect!
I’ve lurked quite a bit on this sub and in the KIK groups (“community”) and one thing I’ve found that is fairly consistent is that the vast majority of people who post are, save for being adulterers, among the most perfect people on the earth!
Moreover, It seems that the adulterers in this community are solidly monogamous EXCEPT as applied in their current situation and it is the sole fault of their dead bedroom, abusive, boring, distant, horrible, SO that they are cheating!
No one in this community is bad at sex, rude, smelly, impatient, unintelligent, unattractive, or anything less than perfect (except for breaking those stupid marital Vows)
Is there a scientific study that could be done on this community?
Can we get a perfect/imperfect person roll call?
oh tony – I’ve just had to go wash my eyeballs out with carbolic soap after looking at that link! Could you not have put out a PSA with it!?! urghh…..
I have been reading CL for almost 3 yrs and this is the first time I’ve commented. Tony, that link was horrible! It makes me realize how many demented people are out there. Who are these people?
our former spouses.
Exactly who they are Tempest, our former spouses. At one time I would have been offended if anyone would suggest my X could possibly be one of them. I should have known, Mr. Integrity would remind me almost daily of how fortunate I was to be married to a man of such high moral standards.
X had a habit of pointing out others indiscretions with disgust, then empathy for their wives.
I believed this crap. I often wondered if I was worthy of someone so perfect.
Chump Nation has been a welcome awakening.
That’s the most impossible to wrap your head around. My noble guy was outraged by having two cheating daughters in law right before he launched into two years of a double life. He loved to turn on that horrible Cheaters program and shake his head, saying things like, “People fall out of love; it happens. But there’s a way to handle it. You discuss it, you get a divorce. There’s no excuse for cheating.
Yeah. He was actively cheating on me at the time.
I hated the show. It made me ill, and he knew it. Finally, I refused to watch anymore. I told him that I couldn’t bear watching those poor people have their hearts broken on television, in front of God and everyone. It was just too painful to watch them hurt so badly. I couldn’t imagine how utterly destitute they were feeling, and I didn’t want to. Too upsetting.
HOW can a person be so perverse? HOW can they behave like that? Evidently he got a real kick out of having his big damn secret. I guess he thought he was especially clever, throwing up that smoke screen to throw me off his trail. Only it was unnecessary, since I had absolutely no idea anything was going on.
My father was one of those rare, actual unicorns. He owned up to his actions, answered all the questions, took early retirement and moved away to start a new life dedicated to my mother.
Being a teen and living at home, I had a front-row seat to every bit of the fallout.
They spent the years until he passed away devoted to each other and started a wonderful new life together.
There are some real success stories.
HOWEVER, my marriage was not one of them.
I was blind sighted by an man who had a very long term affair with his business partner who he made part of my family and a big part of my children’s lives.
To this day, he refuses to admit the truth (she did!). During his deposition with all the facts in front of him, he still refused to admit to anything.
I got an amazing settlement from a judge who told me he was disturbed, I put in the hard work to get me and my kids to a new life. We are strong and happy without him (and her).
I read this site to give back to those that helped me through the awful times when I was suicidal.
I am not full of rage anymore.
I am full of EXPERIENCE!!!
That is what I and others bring to Chump Lady. That is what Chump Lady started. A supportive community who can really look, unbiased, at what others are going through.
When reading responses, it is easy to tell who is still raging over their own battle (it’s a community of many chumps in many phases) but the majority are able to look at every person’s story and offer guidance based on what the writer has written.
We are real people and our goal is to honestly support each other and call each situation as we see it.
Rebecca, your parents is what some of of would hope for. It is rare indeed. Which is the message here.
Unicorns are rare…Successful reconciliation is rare…It can be done…with work and effort and commitment.
I come here to remind myself why I need to move on and far from my cheater. I need to quit walking down horror lane. I need to make a new and better life with new and better choices.
This site saved me….not from all my mistakes….I made huge ones…I gave into the rage monster. I reacted. I didn’t go no contact. I’m still getting there……but I feel Meh is near….
Anger…rage filled….you betcha. But he is alive. Give us some credit. This site saved him too. I needed sound advice from others who walked before me.
I’ve made boundaries…I didn’t have before. I am thankful for each one here who comments and responds. Your stories strengthen and give me clarity on days when a felony doesn’t seem so bad.
My Mom was a unicorn too. But my Dad still couldn’t get over the betrayal since she cheated with his best friend. They tried for 4 more years, and they weren’t good years. I think the person who can somehow get over that and trust again may be even more rare than the unicorn. Understandably. Some people need to go through that and know they tried. Some just need to get out and save their sanity. I think everyone here does a good job of considering the particulars of every situation.
I really like how you are fair minded in your phrasing. I can’t tell yet if I need time to try and see whether there is a unicorn, mainly to know I tried me all. I may also need to push on to the “protect myself and my kids” phase. But I really appreciate how you stated this without judgement.
Someone capable of a long term affair or serial cheating is not capable of remorse, IMO. Think Michael Vick or Hitler were? Ithink we have to start really thinking about how deviant cheaters are and stop assigning normal values and feelings to them.
Yep, I gave the cheater many chances – 7 more years of chances. What a waste of time & energy. Thank you CL & CNation. I wish I was here sooner.
Wish I had open my eyes 15 year earlier…I gave her many chances. Even now going through the divorce the manipulation and gas-lighting continues. It’s all about them!!
Wish I were here sooner too. 10 years of giving my cheater chances and it ended with a house cleaned out while i was at work, an attempt to liquidate my stock portfolio (unsuccessfully), an attempt to clean out the savings account and a stack of lawyer bills. Yeah, i don’t know why i would be angry.
And even now i keep hearing how “I owe her” as the bright, rosy future with Schmoopie didn’t quite work out. I just remind the cheater of the unilateral choices she made.
Wooo-hooo, right on Chump Lady! No hands raised here. No unicorn in the mist either, just a plain grey, sorry ass for me. Oh, wait! Schmoopie’s problem now, she can give him plenty of second chances when time comes. I have a good life to live instead.
Eight years of chances, cheated on at least eight times, three years of therapy (for me. He went about six times). All to come right back to the same cycle of discovery, denial, and blame shifting. Yep. Millions of chances. Still love him. Still want him to change. Filed for divorce two weeks ago and got told last night how mean I am and that I like watching the kids cry when he leaves. No. I really don’t. It’s not my goal in life to break up families. He says “some people mean it when they say for better or worse”. Guilt trip after guilt trip. No accountability. 8 years later. Same thing. Unbelievable. Yep. I’m sure every chump here has tried a million things and everything they could like me.
Wow, did you say that some people mean it when they say “forsaking all others”, and that he is going to be lucky you don’t take him up on the ” till death do us part”. These people are so ridiculous to pretend marriage vows mean something to them.
Rich indeed. After d d 1 I told him we would have to use condoms till his results came back. His response: but I’m your husband! ” . no shit Sherlock.
Peaceful Chump–they never change nor acknowledge that they are wrong or have shitty characters. Eleven months after divorce, because I refuse to be friends with my evil, toxic, serial cheater X, here is what he wrote to me this weekend,
“Affairs happen, as with many of your erstwhile friends (e.g., M, D). They are great individuals notwithstanding their affairs while married or with someone who was married. Relationships fail for a reason; and yes, whether you’ll ever admit it or not, you played your part in the failure of this one”
Blameshifting 101 and 102. They all get As.
Tempest: that email is disgusting in deed and so meant to stab at you! Yuck. If I had to deal with my ex over our kids, I’m sure it would set me back. Yes, your ex oozes with evil. The crazy is he gets off on stabbing at you.
Someone needs an ass kicking. I would volunteer, but, as a man, I am not prone to violence.
An ass-kicking in this case wouldn’t really be considered violence; it could be considered common sense.
And a public service. ?
Cindy Gamrat/Todd Courser. Thoughts? Anyone’s cheater paying for her support services for victims of spousal surveillance? Just $50,from what I understand.
Oh, for crying out loud. Those two loser representatives don’t have anything better to do with their time than whine about the “emotional abuse” of being caught being emotionally abusive to their spouses while boinking each other on the public dime?
Ok. But, it does go against the natural male proclivities. My XW was violent, however. Perhaps she would do him( well, I know she would do him, but I mean administer a beating.)
Welcome back, Arnold. Good to see you again.
Dang Tempest, I’m sorry you have to endure this. The only part you played was getting duped into marrying a cheater.
Damn Tempest, what a disordered turd! One of the best suggestions my therapist made earlier on when my X tried blameshifting was to tell him “I understand that’s what you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.”
Of course, both people are responsible for their own part in a dysfunctional relationship. However, only the cheater is responsible for infidelity.
I will claim that my main flaw is that I was never neat enough (or organized enough) for him. In all other respects, I was a pretty darn good wife (and all our friends thought the same thing). The “not neat enough” criticism may have been a legitimate deal breaker for him, and I offered a divorce every.single.year for a decade (and every month the last 6 months before D-day). He never took it. Thus, I have concluded my less-than-optimum neatness clearly irritated him, but was his “ticket” to cheat so he could keep his legitimate wife & kids to take to dinner parties, while getting lots of strange on the side.
Wow tempest! It’s totally irrational. Eventually you just give up!
Yep, relationships fail for all sorts of reasons. And when an emotionally healthy person is in a failing relationship, they have an honest discussion with the other person about the situation and, if there’s no hope, they exit with as much grace as possible. If you’re a dysfunctional / cluster B / sociopath … you cheat and then blame your spouse for your abhorrent behavior.
Damn, Tempest. He gets an A+ in both papers. Do you have to have contact?
Usually not, but this time there was a debate over who can claim my college-student daughter on taxes (she lives with me when not at school, he claimed he contributed more because he paid her tuition). That was only part of a vile final email after the debate finished (apparently I’m also “vile and nasty” and he “no longer recognizes me” and “hopes I return to my old self.” I guess that means the one who would tolerate his BS; ain’t gonna happen).
I contacted my lawyer to see if I can pay her to field correspondence from him, as I am done, done, done with his rage, pity, charm cycles.
That gives me an idea, we need a chump buddy system for communications with cheaters.
Let’s say a pair of chumps. Each time cheater sends chump #1 a nastygram, chump #1 sends it to chump #2. Chump #2 filters and comes back with responses to chump #1. Response #1 would be the business-like suggested reply to the cheater and response #2 would be a UBT version…
Perfect!! I love that system! Count me in.
Brilliant
Tempest: doesn’t get much more toxic than that correspondence! Yuck! Yes! Might be way worth paying someone to field that bs! I’m just shaking my head in disgust!
And some people mean “forsaking all others”
I said that back to him thanks to chump nation! ? Doesn’t do any good but made me feel better. ? Thanks for the reassurance to you all!
PC – “some people mean it when they say for better or worse” is just unbelievable after 8 betrayals with harlots. You didn’t break up your family, he did!
I guess this type of example is why this whole divorce thing with cheaters is so insulting to our intelligence and so damaging to our families. It still miffs me how these serial cheaters braid the truth, I just will never understand how they can look at their actions with zero empathy. I just don’t get it
Hugs to you peaceful chump!! You are
Mighty! Don’t let him climb over your boundaries and get in your head!
“There are many, many online campfires where “waywards” can huddle up and toast their sad sausage weiners.” wELL I spit coffee out my nose reading that. Too funny. Note to self: Finish coffee and then read Chump Lady. I didn’t post on yesterday’s blog because it was a little painful for me to read her letter. I had a highschool sweetheart that I dated into my twenties for three years. I was going to marry that guy. And then his little brother died in a car accident and my boyfriend also went off the deep end. He was a clean cut guy that wore polo shirts and boat shoes and worked for an engineering firm and suddenly turned into this green hair mohawk guy that pierced his nipples and attended GWAR and Genitorturer concerts. I stayed with him through all that but then he started drinking and driving, the very thing that took out his brother, and started crossing some lines and boundaries and wouldn’t get help. I ended our relationship. BUT he never once cheated on me! NEVER. He did some crazy, crazy things in his grief (see green hair mohawk nipple piercing comment). You know I think he did come out of the fog. It’s been twenty years and I social media stalk him sometimes just to see if he did cause I care about him and it certainly looks like it but yes, sometimes I get sad that we didn’t make it. BUT I know what I tolerate in relationships and what I don’t and he definitely crossed boundaries. I can say I can be happy for him that he’s out of the fog of grief and carrying on while I’m happy in my own relationship and just leave it at that. It’s about what I want for myself and how I want to be treated.
I think HoustonDad made a lot of assumptions about Chumps. And I may be making an assumption myself, but I believe the majority of Chumps actually did give their cheating spouses ample opportunities to reconcile and in most cases the cheater just rolled right over the Chump again and again! I gave my cheater so many chances I actually lost count. But time and again he just threw those chances away. Am I bitter? Only when someone says I am, but the way I look at it, I was more than fair to my cheater and he just crapped on me more and more! I am not bitter, but angry that he wasted my good nature and continued to act an ass! Now he wants everyone to believe I was the “bad” person! Bitter? Maybe, but only because he twists the real truth! And I don’t really give a shit what his narrative is because I know the true effort I put forth. So screw these people who want to believe him! I don’t need them anyways!
I always love your responses Roberta. ” I was more than fair to my cheater and he just crapped on me more and more! I am not bitter, but angry that he wasted my good nature and continued to act an ass! ” I gave X a chance—but it didn’t last 2 weeks. So no unicorn here–just the cold hard truth of Jackassness. X just wasted 35 yrs of my life.
Interestingly my grandchild is head-over-heals about Unicorns. Oh how I want to explain it to her…..She’s just 6.
Not to trash Houston Dad specifically, I think he does represent a large portion of chumps who are seeking reassurance that staying with their cheaters despite the magnitude of the betrayal is the right path. Some of us have sought such advice here either by posting in the forums or simply reading the blog.
My 2cents is the chump needs to do what they alone feel is right. If you choose to attempt reconciliation with a serial cheater, ONS cheater, LT affair cheater, emotional cheater, financial cheater whatever….DO IT. This space is your sounding board, your reason-check. Of course you will get a lot of push back, insight and advice from many who have BTDT.
For the reconciliation chumps who get their panties in a wad with the CN feedback, perhaps you need a break from this blog. Seek advice from the reconciliation boards. There you will find people experiencing exactly what you are dealing with daily. The biggest take-away is that none of this abuse that your spouse or partner has consciously dumped on you was what you stated in your martial vows or relationship agreement. This sucks and it’s hard. If you decide to trust a liar, verify and get legal documentation. Isn’t that what you would recommend to a business partner or even your own friend, sibling or child in a relationship with someone who is supremely selfish?
Yeah, I also went through that stage. God will change him. I will stand by my vows. Things will get better. And I think I visited here right after he finally left me in 2014 after 36 years of marriage, and said to myself, wow that’s a hard dose of reality at CL. Not ready to give up yet then- went to some reconciliation websites. But that attitude and belief in 1999 after the first D Day only bought me 15 more years of confusing off and on love bombing and grief over his “distance”. One affair I just found out about from a “friend” was during the time I was fighting breast cancer 13 years ago. I now understand my confusion. No I don’t believe in unicorns anymore. I still have my solid belief in God, and know that He releases and heals us. My life looks more and more beautiful every day. So very thankful to have found Chump Lady and the mighty Nation. Houston Dad, I wish you the best.
Nancy, I am so tremendously sorry that happened to you. Your strength is inspiring.
Movin on and SIS, thank you for your encouragement. Great to “meet” you! (Nancy)
You sound lovely, Nancy.
I would add that the world needs MORE anger regarding adultery and infidelity, not less. That is a healthy response to such a violation-aka soul rape. IT IS A BIG DEAL!!! Plenty of places that down play the anger and shame people for having such a healthy emotional response, imo. CL is a much needed forum that says and does otherwise.
Thank you ! so much for comment. I still have the anger I have tried so hard to push it down. Because I’ve been called crazy for what has been done to me. My ex cheated with his best friends wife and now married to her. But I’m the crazy one for even thinking anything was going on between them. He courted her right in front of me and her husband, and friends we hung around and while on vacation and wherever they felt like it. But my ex justified it by, he was only being a gentleman. Lol. I still sometimes ask myself what did I do wrong. It’s still so hard because we have mutual friends I still see and live in the same town. They got to where they didn’t even hide it anymore. .I pray that God takes the pain away But it’s been 4 years how much longer ?
Mary, what did you do wrong? You married a cheating turd. That’s about it.
Thank you Anita, for your comment. But what about her ? what do we call her she is just as bad. She never refused his advances when he came on to her . They’re both just as deviant. Thank you again for your reply.
Yes, Yes, DM! Where are all of those angry people? CL,CN isn’t for everyone, but it works for me. I needed the truth, and then the support after facing the truth. I hadn’t seen truth’s humble face in such a long time, would I recognize it? Yes.
Aristotle wrote that “the angry man is aiming at what he can attain, and the belief that you will attain your aim is pleasant.”
What can we attain? An authentic, cheater-free life.
Good old Aristotle – he’s the man! 🙂
Divorce Minister, as a Christian what is your position of the power of redemption and forgiveness when it comes to infidelity? This is something sorely lacking here although I do agree with CL’s assessments.
Percival, A marriage ravaged by adultery is dead in the eyes of God as I read Scripture (see Deut. 22:22, Lev. 20:10, Mt 1:19). That needs to be the starting point in any godly discussion of forgiveness and marriage restoration following infidelity. While I DO believe in marriage resurrection like I believe that God still brings people back from the dead today, I consider such acts miracles, which are by definition outside the natural order of events. Like faith healers telling a terminal cancer pt that he is “healed” when the doctors tell him that the cancer is still there and will kill him, I regard many Christian pastors/counselors similarly who push for reconciliation and adultery “forgiveness” without dealing with the spiritual reality of adultery. For more thoughts, here’s a post I wrote on whether or not adultery is unpardonable (http://www.divorceminister.com/is-adultery-the-unpardonable-sin/). CL does discuss these matters on the blog, but she does us all a service calling out the “faith healers” who claim marriages are “healed” when they are not. Denying reality and denying the need for real repentance does no one any good. It certainly doesn’t help chumps.
This is case where a Old Testament needs to be revived. At least in punishment for adultery. Stoning the man and woman may be extreme in today’s world. But with the damage it does plus a world full of disease, jail time would be acceptable!
Percival, the Bible exhorts us to forgive the repentant sinner. The problem is, few of us see genuine repentance.
Moreover, even if we are able to forgive, that does not automatically mean we must continue in our marriages. I can forgive a guest who steals from me, but that doesn’t mean I must – or should – invite him to stay again.
Repentance (true) before forgiveness. And as stated, you can forgive and still walk away. God allows for divorce in adultery. Always be a skeptic, they have proven themselves to be good at lying. I think they have years of work to prove they have changed. They do not deserve a pass. Most people can pretend and lie for months but eventually they will crack. I see a lot of people who find God….. But don’t live it…. Just a veil to get what they want!
Percival – you may be new here, but actually the discussion about redemption and forgiveness happens with surprising regularity. You may also be surprised to learn that there is a substantial proportion of Chump Nation who can countenance the possibility of both redemption and forgiveness, so long as both those gifts are appropriate. What isn’t appropriate (and sadly due to the real EXPERIENCE I and my fellow Chumps have suffered) is false remorse (see archives re real or genuine Naugahyde remorse). It might surprise you too that Chump Nation doesn’t automatically shoot unicorn on sight – but they have learned to smell a wolf dressed in unicorn clothing from 1,000 miles away. I am, I guess, an Agnostic – but I do know that sins are not even forgiven by God himself without genuine remorse (and of course, a determination never to repeat the sin).
Thanks for the tutorial Jayne. I’ve been a guest here for five years and read the posts regularly so I’m pretty familiar with CL’s ideas regarding true vs. genuine imitation naugahyde remorse, untangling the skein of fuckupedness,etc. I’m also intimately familiar with Cluster B disorders and the ideas of Dr. George Simon. My question was directed to Divorce Minister since as a man of faith I was curious to hear his take on grace, forgiveness and redemption since as CL stated this is not a site for reconciliation. Not looking for the psychological or scientific cause(s) or reason for character disorder (which most cheaters have IMO) but an answer to the question “Can a cheater redeem themselves, have a change of heart, character etc? Reading the replies I can see the rigidity. I’m not so much concerned with the Old Testament as with what Jesus thought of forgiveness. In the end it’s not about them at all but about ourselves…
Isn’t that up to the cheater then? Do assert and reassert the intention to redeem themselves BECAUSE they have betrayed? And then to do the work? Honestly and transparently?
My cheater H stopped cheating when I found out and demanded it. He initially was appalled at himself but transitioned pretty quickly to blame shifting and wanting to focus on marital problems, while conveniently lying about having cheated the whole marriage. Back and forth it went from apologies to hostility and whining it was so hard to change, he was overwhelmed. And frustrated. At me, of course, not himself for making this mess in the first place.
I WANTED him to redeem him self and grow the fuck up. It was too hard. In the end, which was just over a year, he didn’t want to grow out of his childish, selfish, entitlements. He wanted to rug sweep and to talk about goals going forward as if fcking other women online was not something he needed to make amends for.
I had 2 d-days and my first reaction was try to fix it by going to counseling. I had to practically drag my ex-wife to the counselor. My former chumpy-self certainly thought she was a confused wayward who just needed help to come out of her fog. Blah! Cringed just typing that. Nope. She just didn’t care.
I had a conversation with a friend this weekend about how I no longer believe people perpetrate misery unto others because they are lost, sad, or frighten. I said people know what they’re doing is wrong but they just don’t care. Her response was that she does believe in lost frighten forest creatures who do harm unto others because they don’t know better because she was one of them. Minus one friend.
Fairly simple, to be honest.
Cluster B’s (and theres more of them than you think) don’t want to be told they are wrong or being a shit – so they trample through everyone else and do whatever the fuck they please.
Being a Christian, I do believe with God, people can change. Problem is most of these people have no soul and believe they are good people. You have to be willing and seek Gods help. Hence in most cases it will not happen. Anger…. Yes we have a right to be angry. We made a vow we expected life long commitment! What we got was lies, attacks on our sanity and potential exposure to STDs! The assumption that it is my fault she could not say no and keep her pants on is bogus! I have been married for 25 years and have turned down and run from being hit on…. At no point even when I was the most miserable in out relationship did I stray!!! It’s character and morals! Something she has none of…. To say there is any thing I did or did not do that caused this means that there is an excuse and a reason God will give a pass for adultery. I have never seen any reason he would stamp his approval on this! Nor anywhere he throws judgement or punishment on the chump! All is focused on the perpetrators not the victim! The R factory is nothing but a group of people stealing money from people who are at their weakest….. It targets chumps ! I would say there is a chance for a cheater to change. Problem is at least for me, why would I want them? I have to live with knowing what she did for four years. The disgust I have for her actions…. The total lack of respect for her? I was lucky (sarcasm) to see her text back and forth…. The crap she did with her boy toy is burned inside my brain….. I doubt that ever goes away!
I’d say that’s definitely a friend you don’t need. I iz scared bunny, so I stole your wallet. I had the sadz, so I fucked your best friend. Um . . . no.
That’s right DM. What is this idea that anger is bad all together? I think it feeds into the foolishness that society mistakes for tolerance. It’s a false sense of civility and only enables people who would perpetrate misery onto others and themselves.
From my POV, our fine CL is consistently able to rather effortlessly support her position that a person is unlikely to be a unicorn via a very basic observation of the person’s own behavior.
If I thought I had done something so terrible to a person I cared about that the person felt his/her life was destroyed as they knew it, I can only imagine feeling so low it would be hard to even look the person in the eye. I definitely can’t imagine thinking any thing I could say would justify making someone feel that way and expecting forgiveness from the person. Destroying someone’s trust in the world is pretty huge. You can’t really apologize. Any grace the person could muster would be remarkable.
CL points out the ways a person’s behavior shows they are still immaturely self-focused. That is a powerful sign of inability to care enough about something besides him/herself to ensure s/he won’t harm again.
The odds are ever in her favor.
2 years of shit sandwich buffet, then big formal Reconciliation, which turned out to be an enthusiastically accepted invitation for him to ramp up the abuse and mindfuckery. And now, 7 months after going NC-except-kid-stuff, he still pushes boundaries, takes jabs at my self-worth, and lies for no reason.
Gosh, I seem bitter. Maybe I should give him another chance?
I didn’t give mine many chances after D-day because I’d already given him almost 24 years of chances to become a decent human being. All he did was to get better at deception, subterfuge, and subtle emotional abuse. If I can save someone else from that angst with my “angry” comments to dump the mother fucker, it’s worth it.
Bravo, Tempest! Most of these letters come from the newly chumped. At that point I was looking for any advice that would tell me how to make all that happened not exist. I think our anger if FOR the newly chumped, not for our own situation. I have so much empathy for the chump that just discovered their whole marriage was a lie that I want to protect them from all the blame-shifting and gas lighting. The only “affair fog” that exists is the one that the chump is in. Trying to clear that fog for the newly chumped is why I’m here.
We are all at different stages of this process. Unfortunately, I fear that some of us are in between D-Days. we have all btdt
I think there really should just be one set of standards that you apply to EVERYONE in your life. If ANYONE lies to you repeatedly, they need to go. If ANYONE steals from you, they need to go. What has happened in the relationship with cheaters is that they are allowed to treat you much worse than anyone else…
So leaving a cheater advice is just actually good human relations advice. Period. It doesn’t involve “rage”, at all. Just self preservation. No Unconditional Love there.
+2
Yes, being married does not obligate the spouse to forgive heinous acts that would normally end a relationship. In fact, it’s the opposite. They made vows with us, that holds them to a higher standard than anyone else in our life.
Excellent point, nodancing!
+1
Bravo! I’ll admit I was getting sucked in by the tale of woe but you cut straight through the bullshit and pointed out it was all about him. Nothing about the pain and devastation he has caused and how sorry he was. It reminds me of the time CF texted me to tell me if I needed him he was at a hotel in a really crappy room. Funny how whenever he would take off for a fun weekend at his whore’s he never bothered to tell us he was leaving or when he’d be back. No, he only lets me know where he is when he wants me to feel sorry for him. Epic fail.
As for this: You never begged, pleaded, implored them to come to their senses, did counseling, begged for counseling…
Let’s see… I begged, pleaded and implored him to come to his senses even before I knew he was still involved with his whore. I did counseling on my own because he wouldn’t go. And then once I found out he hadn’t ended things I continued to fight for my marriage and tried to talk some sense into him. We also went to marital counseling. That was so worthwhile. The counselor asked what had been going on, he said nothing so I recounted the entire story and on the drive home he accused me of being “fucking perfect”. Yep, I’m perfect because I have the ability to speak when asked a question. Of course he was hoping that we would be “focusing on the future” and not his past shitty behavior. After about 3 sessions the counselor continued to work with me but said it was pointless to continue on with him.
And: You never once cared what your cheater was feeling or asked why they did this or gave them a chance to explain and make it better… Oh yes, after the big reveal I did all of that. He told me how much he enjoyed texting with her (this was a long distance EA at the time) and how much he liked the fact that she would tell him all about her day and what she was doing. He had a rather long list of things he would like me to do and I did my best to do them all. Nothing like letting your husband know you’re doing laundry today, or running errands and giving him a play by play.
I forgave him. I thought I had a unicorn despite the clear warning signs I see now. Hell, I agreed to move 2000 miles across the country (actually closer to the whore) because he “wasn’t happy” where we were. He thought he might end up in a psych ward if he had to stay there much longer. So we moved. We destroyed our daughter’s dream of becoming a college gymnast (and this was a kid who spent 20-25 hours a week in the gym and was a Level 8 when we moved). We took away hockey and cello from our son. Yep, we moved to the one town that didn’t have an orchestra program, a hockey team or a decent gym. We bought a brand new house and filled it with almost all brand new furniture. He bought me a brand new car. We put a $57,000 inground pool in our backyard. Which brings me to this… You never had… a second D-Day, or third, or 35th.
Yeah, about that. I found out 4 days shy of the 2 year anti-versary of DD1 that he was cheating on me again. Same woman. His cousin (I always feel that’s the best part). Only this time it was definitely physical and he had already given her thousands of dollars straight out of our bank account, had cashed in stock and had it wired to a bank account I didn’t even know existed, had bought her and her daughter new iPhones (her husband had kicked her off his plan) and was paying their bill, and was interviewing for a new job- out of state. They were having sex one day to the year that our furniture was delivered from our former state.
I think reconciliation is possible but I also think you need to be able to tell which ones are truly remorseful and willing to do the work and which ones just want to keep eating cake. Sometimes it takes a strong voice (or a chump nation of voices) to help a person see the difference. And sometimes people don’t want to see the difference. If you’ve got a jackass but you want to believe it’s a unicorn you’re going to get really pissed at those people asking you, “Hey, what’s with the carrot taped to your jackass’s head?”
I think reconciliation is possible but I also think you need to be able to tell which ones are truly remorseful and willing to do the work and which ones just want to keep eating cake. Sometimes it takes a strong voice (or a chump nation of voices) to help a person see the difference.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~This^^^^^^^^^
the rest of my reply was missing. I understand the risks. I don’t enumerate the changes that have been made because this isn’t a reconciliation site, and I don’t want to give hope to people that all marriages are salvageable. CL/CN keep me grounded.
I responded something along those lines to HD’s post last night.. Then later saw in the General Forum that he and his wife actually split up. I think what was so frustrating for many of us during HD’s “decision” making phase (whether or not to reconcile) was that he asked for advice often and in spite of our collective recounts of failed attempts he made it clear that he very strongly was leaning toward reconciliation. It felt like he was trying to sway us to the reconciliation camp… Something that isn’t likely to happen here. That’s what I like about CL – straight talk from people who have been there, done that. In the end it’s an individual decision, but we are only trying to save others from the heartache which so often goes hand-in-hand with reconciliation attempts.
I have to add that we SO desperately want things to be right and good again we are inclined to believe we can get beyond what happened — that our cheating spouses WILL change and become devoted and loving to us again. That our spouse is special and going to be one of the exceptions. BUT the reality of being betrayed on such a deep and personal level by some you love takes a VERY long time to recover from AND the relationship will never be what is was before. I think, too, that the faithful spouse is the one who ends up with the short end of that stick emotionally. Being with someone, day in and day out, who you KNOW had the capacity to lie to your face and cheat on you is a heavy burden to carry. I don’t think that ever goes away. There will always be doubt in the back of your mind. It’s far less painful in the long run to cut your losses and move forward on your own.
Wise words Over and Out.
I could not look at my X the same as I used to, after the last affair, because he didn’t EVEN try to hide it! And then, I found out about all the other affairs, so yeah, I’m supposed to just act like nothing happened? Day to day life with a known serial cheater feels pretty neurotic, and very bad for my mental health! It shakes the very foundation of marriage – that the other person is ‘with’ you, and looks out for all your best interests. He only cried and freaked out when I started imposing consequences, which leads me to think that the tears were over having to pay for his playing, not because he was losing his wife.
I really don’t think I’m bitter. I am righteously angry, because he could have left, and told me he no longer was into it, instead of being supremely deceitful, and then acting like it wasn’t that big of a deal!
FreeWoman, twenty years into my marriage when I discovered the emails, etc, my ex tried to pass it all off as no big deal – “nothing happened” – blah blah blah. Had all kinds of excuses and said he would cut off all contact. What a load of BS. He behaved himself for a short time but eventually opened new “secret” email accounts and used the phone at work (our family business) to call his “friends”… (However, he severely underestimated my intelligence – I worked at the business, too, and I looked at the phone bills, etc!) When I found out that he hadn’t stopped, I made up my mind that this was not a man I wanted to spend the rest of my life with.
We had married young and over the years I thought he never matured — he was not very good about helping around the house or with the kids. He was moody, childish and self-centered about things. He drank too much and would have verbally abusive rages in the middle of the night. However, I loved him. I just went along picking up the slack, tried to maintain the peace and keep him happy. D-day rocked my foundation and all those little signs over the years started to become very clear to me. I, too, was very angry that he took advantage of me the way that he did. He used and manipulated me in order to keep his comfortable life at home, yet made a fool out of me behind my back. Then he did everything in his power to alienate me and paint me as the “bad guy” in our marriage during our divorce. A few people came forward after the divorce and told me of incidences (some occurring very early in our marriage) that they were privy to and had suspected he was fooling around. I was shocked and humiliated at how badly he had deceived me. (It sure would have been nice had someone clued me in way back then…)
ALL of this sounds very familiar, Over and Out. Glad you’re out! And, I hope you’re OK. It takes awhile, and I have certainly learned a lot about humans, and the weird games they can play. Sending you love on your healing journey!
No hand raised here either. I gave cheater eight years of chances after Dday #1, did the therapy, underlined the books, even had a temporary separation so “he could think things over”. During the separation he was cheating as I discovered on Dday#2 to which I proceeded to kick him out of our home and never look back. As I did some investigating I found that there must have been at least two other OWs during the eight years of wreckonciliation. So, to clarify to Houston Dad: it is part of a chump´s nature to give chances because it is really hard for us to understand that our partners, who have committed their love to us in marriage, would do anything on purpose to harm us and destroy our family…That is precisely what makes us chumps: giving chances!
Tried MC 12 yrs ago due to all the lies, raging and porn addiction. He went twice then quit after the therapist “insulted him.” The cycles of love bombing, promises of change and that I could trust him, followed by more lies, secrets, and raging amounting to too many chances to count. I held on tight to the reigns of that unicorn until the evidence of his cheating smacked me right off.
I completely understand the deep, deep desire to reconcile. It’s all I wanted. I would have done anything and it’s just what I did–for eight hellish, nightmarish, humiliating months that pushed me to the edge of a mental breakdown as XW, seeing that she could get away with lies, half-truths, coming and going (emotionally and physically), delighted in a wide-open bakery. With my final shard of lucidity I filed. But I get it: the primal yearning for the belief that they Have Changed, that everything will be ok now. Please, base your decisions on that lucidity, on facts, on patterns. Beware your heart: it is not your friend during those times.
Totally agree that feelings betray you when the bomb drops on d-day.
10 years.
During that time my Mom died of cancer.
My Dad battled cancer. He developed Alzhimer’s.
My X went back to school for 7 years.
He didn’t live with us for 3 of those years.
10 years of holding it together because it was the right thing to do.
So yah – at times I can get a little bit angry. I am not going to apologize to anyone for that.
. Case in point, I don’t recall ever seeing anyone here suggest that someone give their wayward spouse another chance
chances??????? He had ever chance to come home to his family. He had ever chance to call and talk to his wife, he had ever chance to work on the marriage, He had a chance to NOT FUCK someone outside of his wife…HE MADE A CHOICE TO FUCK WITH HIS SECRETARY. He had a chance to stop it and do the right thing. He had a chance to help support his kids, he had a chance to not totally cut off and abandon his wife and kids. He’s HAD the chance to help out his kids financially. He had a chance to send gifts to his kids, talk to them, support them, not be a dick to their mother. SO YEA I GAVE HIM MANY CHANCES……
a place to vent that anger. yea I definitely need a place a vent my anger so I can get up and work two jobs to support my family, so I don’t cry all day and night, so I don’t kill him, so I can be the best mom I can for my three kids. I need to vent and know I am not in this alone.
I am so thankful that my now ex-husband only made one feeble attempt to reconcile, and I was so furious that I pissed him off so bad with my response to the attempt, that he rescinded his desire to reconcile. LOL I can’t even imagine the hell I’d be living if I’d reconciled with him AGAIN. Rage? Hardly. Just the knowledge that every cheating story is pretty much the same, so we really do know what we’re talking about. Don’t believe us? Fine. Reconcile. My money is on You Will Be Back.
What I think Houston Dad and others like him fail to realize is the tremendous amount of damage done to the unsuspecting chump PRIOR TO DDay. Most cheaters turn into complete self-involved assholes who treat their chumps like shit during their affair. The chumps are in the dark about what is going on and cannot figure out where the spouse that they know and love went. In my case, it isn’t just that my X decided to share his four inches of throbbing steal with his piece of shit whore, but while he was doing so he treated his family as if we were a nuisance.
The reason chumps tell others to divorce is because we’ve been there. Cheaters, as shown by their own actions, are capable of decimating the lives of those they love for their own selfish purposes. They obviously lack empathy and always will.
I’d like to ask Houston Dad if someone robbed his house, stole everything he valued, then set fire to it and incinerated every precious memory he had, would he then give the keys to his new house to the person who perpetrated that crime against him?? Not a chance in hell. And that, my friend, is what cheating does to the chump.
So sick of hearing about second chances for the cheater who made a “mistake”. The guy who robbed and destroyed the house did not make a mistake. He made a sick, self-serving decision. He’s a random criminal who chose a random house to commit his crime. A cheater decides to do these things to the people in his life that love him most. How can anyone expect a chump to forgive such a betrayal?
Awesome point, effing. We actually don’t talk a lot about that period PRIOR to D-Day much here. You’re doing cake, albeit in a different form from cake AFTER D-Day (s), you know something is wrong during this period, but you don’t know what, you’re being treated worse than you’ve ever been treated, and it seems to have come out of the blue. It’s such an unfortunate time, because I think many of us forget (repress?) this time period, particularly because once D-Day comes, it’s like an eclipse that blocks out everything that came before it as you enter the 9th ring of hell. If every Chump could record/memorialize the “pre D-Day you’re being treated like shit period” and replay it during any moment of doubt or weakness to take the Cheater back during divorce (or after), this “video” would shore up their resolve, you’d sign on the dotted line, and get on with your life with no turning back!
Yes – the cruelty while the chump is in the dark!!!! I had no idea why he was treating me like shit. He said he wanted to be single and didn’t want to be married. He denied OW.
I didn’t have a choice to reconcile nor was I asked for forgiveness. He didn’t want counseling and didn’t want to try. I had one of the coward cheaters that ran off to fairyland forever and married the OW (the one he denied). He cheated and 180’ed and went NC on me!
I’m grateful for CL and CN – otherwise I would be reading crap about how I didn’t affair proof my marriage and feeling like I caused my ex to bang the office skank because I’m inadequate.
?
Add me to that standing ovation. And sign me a bitter, raging Bunny because that POS asshole I was married 20 years to, did cheat, did steal, did lie, did blow us up (read my story) to marry his skank OW, still does not financially/emotionally support our kids (I do), does not acknowledge that any thing he did during, before, or after had any bearing on our marriage’s success and is still-Suprise, Suprise, Suprise!- STILL that same ol’ POS.
Me, too!! I’m a bitter bunny. Some days I’m even a rabid bunny.
Easter is coming. Have those eggs been innoculated?
Well, if that doesn’t sum it up nicely then nothing will! These cheaters are not some “random” theif, but the very people we trust to have our backs! And the minute you expose your back to them, they plunge a large dagger into you and twist it with all their might! Forgiveness? Not so much!
Truth^^^^^
I gave my jackass 14 MONTHS of chances. He rejected my request for us to get counseling. It broke my heart every day waiting for him to emerge from the fog. What was my reward? HE left ME for his Schmoopie who I wasn’t aware existed. HE filed for divorce. HE left ME with not one penny to pay his share of TWO morgages. I would’ve taken him back. If there’s anyone who knows what setting bitterness aside tastes like, it’s me. I even still believe in unicorns. But the unicorn comes to YOU humbly and broken and with real changes you can see, not just hear all about. My advice is never, Hey, just dump them!
GOYSaCA – that may be one of the greatest CN names evah! Love it!! <3
Thank you Beth, you’ve really made my day!!! 🙂
Anytime I tried to address the issues in our marriage, it was my problem. I needed to get over my feelings, because he’s not responsible for my happiness…or I needed to change, because I wasn’t meeting his needs. (don’t you love cheater “logic”?). Therapy was fine – for me. For him, not so much. I would have continued to try to fix it, but then I found proof of cheater’s hookups.
Chump Lady only confirmed what I already knew – my marriage was over – there was nothing to save – more chances would be pointless. Even KNOWING that, my chumpy heart would have given him another chance, if he had demonstrated any real remorse.
Point being – it’s a chump’s nature to give multiple chances. It’s what got us here. We are fundamentally incapable of kicking toxic people to the curb on the first offense (or third, or 10th…). CL and CN’s direct language cuts through the fear and paralysis. It evokes a strong emotional reaction that is a good indication of where you are on your journey. Read CL and think “OMG, she’s reading my mind”…sayonara cheater. Read CL and think “OMG, this is harsh – this isn’t my cheater!”…you’re not ready yet. Either way, you get clarity you didn’t have before.
Houston Dad assumes that anger is ‘ rage’ when it couldnt be further from the truth. And this aint semantics… rage/anger. There is a huge difference and I think its important to distinguish that. Anger, in particular righteous anger is directed at a particular sin or moral wrong. You did this to me and now I am responding to an injustice. My expression and anger are directed at that injustice not the whole world. Hopefully I develop protective reflexes, gain insight and create boundaries. When you push those boundaries or attempt to disregard them you will meet my anger again. Anger protects . Rage, whole other animal. Rage is not lucid. Rage does not establish boundaries… Rage is not in control. Rage is a raw emotion that doesnt protect but destroys.
I am not a rabid dog lashing out in a blind fury. I am good person who has some anger directed at actions that harmed me.
Had I had the opportunity rage would have manifested itself in a very violent, probably illegal irrational way. Like gleefully beating the OW with a baseball bat, lighting my cheater’s Star Wars memento collection on fire or just standing there screaming like an unending horror film. Fortunately I did not have those opportunities right around DDay.
Anger is an honest emotion that provides the energy and clarity of what to do when you discover you have poured your life love and money into a relationship with a freak who really sees you as little more than a personal servant or paycheck. Or both. Sadly the chump way is to ignore the angry message that the brain and body give us.
Mr. Houston, I am not a chump but my brother was. I got a phone call one night from my brother crying so hard I could not understand him. I thought one of his children had died. I flew thousands of miles back come and walked into destruction. There were little children in that house just barely school-age. One kept peeing on herself. She forgot how to talk. She forgot to be hungry. She would stand and babble and cried, and cried, and cried. Another child just kept saying, She’ll be back.”. Another just got lost out there somewhere. And my brother who was supposed to go to work every day was crying so hard and I could nothing for them. How did you fix murder. She murdered this family. I lived thousands of miles away and had my own young children. My husband’s job prevented me from staying and helping. So I had to leave, and leave all that misery behind.
Mr. Houston, how do you take up for someone who has left a family in such horrible circumstances that often times they lose their homes, declare bankruptcy, have children who were straight A students who drop out of school, have to leave neighbors and friends? This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are people who leaves 30 and 40 and 50 pounds trying to understand what was done to them. This is where rage comes from. This was no benign decision made on the part of the cheater, this was a deliberate act of family sabotage.
I am never going to forgive her. What this blog does is so wonderful. It gives voice to people like my brother. Having someone to grieve with who understands. I can only describe from being an observer. I cannot begin to know the pain these chumps feel but I care about them. If they are angry so what. Despair is so horrible that people can’t live with it. Anger allows some control.
Let Go
Great post. As you highlighted cheating involves abandonment and destruction of entire families. Much of my anger involved accepting the sociopaths discard of his children and granddaughter. I’m hoping your brother got full custody and child support from the parasite.
Let Go, I’m crying while reading about those children. These cheaters and their apologists never think about the devestation they cause.
I have tears in my eyes too, Carmella. This was way too close to home – the one my family used to live in together – the one my 17 year old daughter still drives over to and sits on the curb in front of, and cries.
Thank you for asking about my brother. He got angry, thank goodness. He divorced as quickly as he could. He dated around but he was a good husband and father…..and brother. He found a wonderful woman, married and had other children. He died too young. He left a wife and children who adored him and a sister who has never gotten over losing him. He was such a great guy.
Let Go, what happened next ? Did you brother manage to get out of despair after your visit ? So sad
Many is the time I have dreamed of “toasting (sic) their sad sausage weiners” over the fire.
Put that on the activity list for Chumpapalooza 2016! 😉
Let’s say I used to juggle alligators for a living. One day I’m distracted by a shiny object, I miss my mark and one of the alligators in the loop eats my left arm. Months later, a friend giddily runs up and says, “HEY! I’m thinking of juggling alligators! Isn’t that great?!” Obviously, I’m going to sit on this friend and discuss all the reasons why that’s a bad idea.
See HoustonDad? I’m giving this person advice from my personal experience. I’m not coming from a “place of rage” but from a place of having learned that this is a bad decision.
And you’re quote from yesterday . . “I used to be just as angry as everyone else here. You gotta let it go. It’ll ruin you.”
That’s adorable. I’m happy for you that you are above it all and have all the answers. But I am firmly at Meh and honestly don’t hate my X anymore. He’s not in my orbit. But if someone is asking my advice on a subject I know a great deal about, I’ll give it to them. If you don’t like how it’s presented, you can hit the site with the little stop signs on the forums. You know, so you don’t offend anyone on your opinion. Sheesh.
Chances? Are you kidding me?! That’s what most of us wanted more than anything, was to give our cheaters a second chance. And we did. But they kept cheating. And now we know that duct-taping a horn to a donkey’s forehead doesn’t make it a unicorn.
HoustonDad, despite our the blunt musings on this blog, we are a bunch of chumps. We have an overflow of compassion – toward everyone, including (at one time) our very own cheaters. Most of us struggle to find our way in this world because we are *too* compassionate. We arrived at this place of honesty toward donkeys out of self-preservation.
After you find out your spouse has been cheating for years.
Your wonder what the truth is! Were you really loved, was intimacy faked, was the vacation a fraud, and all the shopping trips and visits to mom?
When you’ve been lied to for a long period of time it hard to discern the truth!
Is it a unicorn or is it reconciliation?
CL/CN helped me figure out that I was still being lied to, and that my cheater teacher still doesn’t own up to her decisions (I didn’t hold her hand one day 15 years ago so she cheated on me—WTF).
Though I wish her well in the near term; the Karma bus is coming!
I want to believe in unicorns, but I don’t think its in my cards.
Yes, 3 months of wreckonciliaton where he told everyone we were working on the marriage, but I was the only one trying. He was too busy calling in sick to work (and telling me he was working late) so he could sneak over to his OW’s house. I got the bill for the unpaid rolls and fines to prove it.
Lots of us here have the idiots we married/partnered with 2nd to 627th chances. All we got was screwed over yet again.
I think we should refer to your XH, as FecalBrown, FeralBlue.
In his mind, I did not give him another chance, because he only fucked ONE of his online lovelies everytime he traveled abroad, the others were there to chat (under my nose, often), and one was invited for a two-week platonic vacation.
So, he did not fuck anyone during the year that followed D-Day, that’s true.
Yet…
is it hard to understand, that to me the biggest problem is not genital contact with strange, but the lack of partnership ?
I have always had anxiety issues. The lies and secrecy, the unprovoked rage, the getting up in the middle of the night, the cruel remarks with a sneer, the lack of empathy and care, send my anxiety level through the roof.
I don’t need to play mommy. If I wanted any of that, I would have children. I am not with him to wash his clothes and serve him food and clean the place (and do the maintenance)… and consolate him when he is heartbroken because she dumped him !
That pick-me-dance year was very humiliating and painful.
I had to tell him I could not deal with this any longer. I do not want this chaos and drama in my life. He walked out. He did not even consider changing his ways or negociating anything. And this time I let him go.
For years I huddled with the masses on reconciliation boards hoping for a unicorn but all I ever got was an ass!!!
WASTE OF MY TIME!!!! I will guess that 9.9 times out of 10 CL is right on the money! My advise will always be…..if your sad sausage is truly remorseful and is destined to become a unicorn…..let him/her do that with someone new. The damage has already been done with you. You WILL NOT ever forget the past.
Leave a cheater and gain a life instead!
Judgment is different from rage. I can have a strong judgment about someone’s character, say, that they are a dishonest, selfish, and hurtful person, and I can express that judgment in strong language to make my point, say, to someone who is in danger of continued victimization by that bad person. And yet I can do those things without having any strong emotion towards the asshole in question. They’re . . . just another asshole. Like another vulture on a trash heap or another hyena on the Serengeti. It’s a fact, not a personal attack.
Appropriate distinction, Nomar. I would also argue that rage is part of the process of detachment, then healing. You can’t skip that any more than you can skip the “break the sternum” part of open heart surgery.
And I also hold the opinion that most cheaters, given extra chances, continue to cheat, an opinion based on my own personal experience with a cheater claiming to be in reconciliation with me.
My cheating ex had 5 affairs that I know of. I have none of the experience most of you describe. He asked me for a divorce on New Year’s Eve 2014 out of the blue and moved out on Valentines day, had his affair partner ( I found out about this one post d day) in his bed a day later.
He has stopped talking to me or our children because he stated we weren’t kind enough to him during the discard process……that he tried for awhile but was shunned by us, and he’s also upset that I told his affair partner that he sent me texts asking for a hookup several times after he left me and was with her….so now we can go jump in a lake.
I am thrilled…..I may not have had the strength to go no contact on my own, him doing it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It allows you to see clearly.
Still hurts that he could just toss 20 years of my life and two kids together in the trash for his new (not so new) schmoopie and her kids, but his discard allows healing.
Don’t think mine will be back to do the repentance shuffle……seems out of the ordinary though. I seem to be one of the few here that’s not trying to be recycled for kibble…..
I don’t know much about Houston Dad, just what he posted on the general forums. But based on that, he is a chump whose wreckonciliation recently failed.
So HD, according to his posts at least, is a person who has had the rug pulled out from underneath them and been betrayed. I have a feeling that yesterday’s comments were those of a chump desperately trying to come to terms with the fact that his unicorn indeed, was not a unicorn. That’s hard shit to come to grips with and though quite honestly I don’t really understand the “let’s not be angry” stance as I’m not that far along, I’m not sure I’m in the position to have issue with how anyone gets to meh.
Chirral – I agree with you. It reminded me actually of the letter or comment the other day about the friend telling chump she needed to forgive OW. CL suggested that friend is a cheater herself, which I agree is totally possible, but actually the first thought that came to my mind was that friend had been cheated ON by her husband and was in a constant preservation mode of keeping herself convinced that reconciliation worked and that probably her husband (or pastor or whatever) had told HER she needed to forgive OW.
I gave it 3 years, and I would have done anything to save us. Did do many humiliating things. There’s no fixing it.
Rage rage rage against the creature that was never human. The ex is dead to me and his whore. Will keep me sharp, will keep me focused away from any thought of those two pieces of shit. My rage and anger where they are concerned will stay in full force. I will not ask about him nor listen to anything said about him ever again. My children family and friends are fully aware I wish to hear nothing about him or from him ever. I’ve given way too much forgiveness to people who never deserved it. Friends and family members who love you do not stick knives in your back. I’ve kicked to the curb anyone who tries to tell me what I should and shouldn’t do or feel. In the future anyone who shows disrespect or betrayal will be in mediately kicked from my life. This includes people who cheat on their spouses. I’m 60 I am done with bullshit. If my circle is small, so be it. The rage I feel about him and his whore will remain but towards them. I will not let that rule my life. I’ve new plans and I am moving towards starting them. The next person who tells me I need to forgive him when he’s not even sorry maybe they will get some rage.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5rwYiBdoWHE
Some humans ain’t human, kar
Tru dat.
3 months after my X left me and moved straight into the AP’s house around the corner, I decided to give her one chance. I called her up, asked “Are you sure you want to do this?”, mentioned the statistic that most affairs only last 6 months. She started crying but telling me at the same time about how the affair started, with the implication that she had no say in the matter, it “just happened”. I hung up.
See, I gave her a chance. One chance was more than enough to see who she had become, someone I wanted nothing to do with.
Luckily we didn’t have kids, so I have no reason ever to see her or talk to her again for the rest of my life.
OMG, Blue, this is my story!! 4 months after Dday, asked him if he wanted to come back home…he said “No, not, yet!” There was his 1 and only chance…..done deal! I bought into the RIC crap, even though it felt soooooo very off. The part that made me not want to do it was reading all the stories here, especially being the marriage police! To ex: Seeya, Suckah!!!!!
Blech, Blue! My stbxh did something similar. Walked out on me and I tried telling him how absolutely, completely textbook all his “reasons” were, but of course it’s always “different” when it’s them. He gave me the “it just happened” and also tried to go into how it happened and how, “Look…do you want to know just how unplanned it was?” before I had to stop him. These people are so effing clueless.
23 years of chances. I should have used the unicorn’s horn more effectively.
LOL, Uniquelyme!
HoustonDad: Seems to me that you need sympathy. There are so many (too many) websites and therapists that will sympathize with you. I suggest you knock on their door. CN is a rare breed. A breed that is not happy to be here but is in this situation to no fault of our own. CL leads this group because there was no one brave enough to start and lead this group. You should be thrilled that she even answered your letter. Her advice is golden! Now go away!!!
I hope your wife, ex-wife or significant other is on this blog. It might lessen her pain and quicker to meh.
This site helped me understand the cheating brain. I made so many mis-steps, had been given lots of bad advice – from professionals!! Now I get it. And now that I do, I have changed how I behave. THAT has made all the difference. If you don’t understand, you so want to believe in your spouse. You give them way too much latitude. It’s all about getting tough, seeing things for as they are – not what you want. I was prepared for all the typical behaviors. Forewarned is forearmed !!
Yesterday’s post and HoustonDad’s response got me thinking about what circumstances would say reconciliation is worth it.
I suppose if it was truly a one-night stand, the cheater immediately copped to it, and the entire “Real Remorse” checklist was filled, I’d say “maybe.” But even then, it’s a question of whether or not the chump could actually recover and heal after that betrayal. May people couldn’t.
Besides, at the end of the day, if a partner had all the qualities necessary to be a perfect unicorn, he or she wouldn’t have cheated.
Never.
Because there is no such thing as being so drunk that you can’t control yourself to get out of a situation before it happens. There Is a process which involves getting to that point – and a decision NOT to go down that path, is the only acceptable answer.
One night stands my arse – why the fuck should a person be trolling for such in the first place? The answer is: never.
Totally. I tend to be skeptical about any situation that started from the spouse *discovering* the cheating or the affair rather than the perp owning up and confessing all on their own.
The thing is, people rarely confess unless they’re caught or threatened.
Lulu, cheater ex confessed his first affair and did everything right after that – IC, transparency, everything. Things were fine for 10 years … and then he cheated again. This time I caught him. I filed for divorce but I took him back (again, remorseful, etc) and he went back to IC. Major deja vu. Thirteen years later, the final affair. Nowadays, when someone asks my opinion about a cheating spouse/partner, I tell them if that were me, I would leave.
Totally agree – that’s partly why I think so many reconciliations are destined to fail. I’m sure it’s probably possible for someone to be discovered, go through intensive therapy and maybe be better, but in my mind I don’t know how much I could ever trust that there was real remorse unless they fessed up all on their own. Like, I feel like true guilt and remorse should eat at them so much that they come clean (while also accepting the possible consequences). Not that I would know what that’s like.
Anger is not the emotion I feel and is not the emotion which should concern most chumps, in my opinion. My predominant feeling is that of numbness. It is almost as if I am afraid to experience any emotion, for fear that I will be hurt again. Some days, I wish I could be angry because then I would be feeling something. But instead, I find myself going through my days in, one foot in front of the other, just trying to exist.
My divorce is far past and I have (mostly) accepted what happened, but damn it, I want to experience a full range of emotions. I want all the colors in the crayon box back ! I try to put myself out there and I do enjoy my life, but I know I am still guarding my heart from future damage. So I can promise Houston Dad that anger is not what we should fear. I would rather see red than endless expanses of gray, despite what that silly book says. I guess I am past the leaving stage of chumpdom and now on the stage of how to love again. Believe me, it is almost easier to be angry than lost in the woods.
My predominant feeling is that of numbness. It is almost as if I am afraid to experience any emotion, for fear that I will be hurt again. Some days, I wish I could be angry because then I would be feeling something. But instead, I find myself going through my days in, one foot in front of the other, just trying to exist.
^^^That^^^ is exactly what it feels like.. I’d love to feel more anger at times than this feeling..
I enjoy the numbness…keeps me from pulling out my .38 and shooting him. Truly. I thank God for the numbness…it enabled me to do what I had to do and stay out of prison. The Lord KNOWS me…how I could have twisted off, and spared me the trouble by giving me this special gift. For everything else, there’s Mastercard.
I’m not sure HoustonDad fully understands rage. It’s a pretty powerful thing and it takes a lot of energy. I don’t have the energy to full time parent, full time work and have rage. If I make an observation pointing out the flaws in a person’s story or argument that’s not rage.That’s logic. That’s showing if A then B. Here at CN we have a lot of those examples don’t we?
I have a friend who is feeding her unicorn, taking it to the therapist and telling me how things are better than they have ever been. She also calls to tell me how she doesn’t know what she would do on her own, how she would get a job and take care of her kids, how she would survive. I get it. She’s scared and does not want to give up the life she has, so she is trying to save it. I don’t rain on her parade but I do occasionally give her something to think about when I hear her spackle. Then I tell her I will be here for her come hell, high-water, or another D-day. Not to say I told you so but because I know she will need someone who can give her the support we all need when we are ready to make that very, very hard decision.
Oh, yes, I meant that reply to AllOutofKibble .. but I’m reading and learning from all of CN’s comments and “debates,” including your contributions, RumbleKitty.
RumbleKitty, you are a wonderful friend. She’s lucky to have you in her life. Your comment reminded me of this older CL post: https://www.chumplady.com/2015/07/dear-chump-lady-how-do-i-support-my-friends-reconciliation/
Not me, but AlloutofKibble. 😉
Yeah, pretty sure Rumblekitty would take a 2 x 4 to her friend’s head (which is why we love you RK!).
I gave my cheater (who did not tell the full truth at all about her cheating) a second chance, 6 years ago. I gave her another chance 3 years ago, I even gave her a chance again three months ago (before I know she cheated multiple times again).
I hate to say it, but it seems that; once a cheaters always a cheater, simply applies to these people. They have no conscience, feel no remorse and have no qualms to destroy your heart and soul if it feels better or right to them to cheat on you. It’s a mindset, pure and simple. They need kibbles, and when the going gets tough, they run for the easy kibbles. The idea that you might actually have to invest time, love and energy to get something good is alien to them. Onward to the next ultimate love or soulmate that they only just met and fuck you and your dreams, hopes, feelings and family.
They might be different in a future relationship, but my heartfelt feeling is that if you have forgiven them once, they feel entitled to do it again. Simply because you forgave them the first time. It’s like kids, if you do not give them boundaries, they will never respect you. The difference here being that they never respected you to begin with.
Of course we’re angry, we got the shit kicked out of our heart, hopes and dreams. However sometimes a good kicking is needed to see the truth.
I noticed the comment yesterday and intended to make a reply. When I reply to post, I do so with a sound mind and a shit load (pardon my language) of experience in addition an enormous amount of reading.
I’m almost ashamed to admit how many years of pick me dancing, Unicorning, spackle, I could very well be the Spackle Queen of this site.
I’ve also read many books on keeping the spark in your marriage, his needs, his feelings, cooked his favorite foods, complimented him, thanked X for taking out the trash, kept a pleasant disposition, smiled when he walked into the room, I made an absolute fool of myself.. Looking back, my behavior would have made a great comedy act.
There was the let’s talk, to me sobbing begging for him to be nicer, to go to counseling, asking him what could I do to make things better, choking on my tears, to have him look at me with disdain and tell me how pathetic I am.
Truthfully, I’m more angry with myself. I honestly hope I can prevent another Chump from going down the path I went through. It isn’t pretty and not one I’m particularly proud of.
Oh yes, even the Cheater Ex who basically abandoned us was given a chance. I gave him an “ultimatum” on DDay. How dare I?
The Ultimatum included what you ask?
1. Unfriend OW on Facebook
2. Transfer to a different location at work so you are no longer working together.
3. Show remorse and act like you are sorry.
Apparently I was WAY out of line. And Cheater Ex said NO to all of it. And added a warning to me about contacting the OW….you know, for my safety…..because she was scared and talking about harassment and calling the cops. Whaaaaat?
That, HoustonDad, is the death of a Unicorn.
Yep.. same here: you do not control me:
– I asked her not have contact with the OG anymore during the pick-me dance: Screaming, with the kids present, that I was controlling her.
– She was just helping him, we should become friends (when the cheating wasn’t clear yet)
– It was all me, I had to change, I was not connecting on a soul level, did not ‘resonate’ with her on the same level, etc, etc..
No remorse, no compassion, nothing..
Conniered has a good point. Most of our unicorns ‘die’ after assessing if they are showing real remorse or Genuine Imitation Naugahyde Remorse.
What a great post and great comments. I am one of those who read here to “stiffen my spine” and get better with boundaries. Am still waiting to see how WH’s one single chance plays out. I so appreciate all of you.
I hadn’t thought of people using the site that way. Makes sense. All the very best to you.
Thanks 300lbsLighter. I wish you the best too.
I come here because I falter between a state of hopefulness and reality. This place is reality. I read all the things that make me uncomfortable… it’s like taking medicine. Bitter but the only way I’ll get well.
My cheater is perfect between the fuckups now. He always sucked between them before. The fuckups are getting further and further apart. They’re not devastating anymore… “just disrespect.” He recognizes that they’re fuckups as soon as they come out of his mouth, now. My delusion tells me that this is improvement. I need CN to remind me that this is his true character shining through.
I have been a SAHM for 10 years. I have applied to 7-13 jobs a week for the past 2 months. I NEED a job that will support me and three children or I cannot leave. I trust that he sucks and know that kicking him out also means flushing his income down the toilet. Because he sucks, he’ll turn on me as soon as he leaves or run away and have no job to garnish wages from. I will not live with my parents (who have 5 children – 8 to 18 years old, still living at home; they leave as soon as they’re able to) because even more than I dislike faking a future with a cheater, I will not live with religious zealots. I left home at 18 for a reason. It would be a living hell if I am beholden to them for anything, rather than where I am… purgatory. This is only temporary.
I come here because CN reminds me to not get comfortable in purgatory. That history is the best indicator of future behavior and my cheater’s history SUCKS. It fuels me to keep going until I get that job. It reminds me that job options MUST include the schedule and pay I will NEED to do it without a cheater in my daily life. To plan for a cheater-free life. That includes no child support, no alimony, no children’s visitation to him or childcare. When I leave, there will be a battle for a few weeks and then I will “win” and be a single mother to 9, 10, and 11 year-old children in every sense. He will only contact us for the hope of occasional kibbles from his children.
I come here because CN reminds me that reality can include cheaters fleeing the scene as soon as they’re served. They can quit jobs and move out of state so they don’t have to feel the consequences that matter to them… like paying child support and having people think poorly of them. That selfish people like cheaters can and DO make selfish choices like not providing for their children. He’s done it before. Twice. No – three times… one wife, two girlfriends, and two of their children.
I come here because CN reminds me to pay attention to the fact that his history sucks because his character sucks. I’ve just been keeping him from SHOWING his suckery to anyone but me for the past 13 years. And without me? He will suck to everyone again… and he very well may just flee. Again. I need to face all of those possibilities while completely grounded in reality. I need to trust that he sucks and plan accordingly.
Divorce will be easy. He WILL flee. He’s terrified of paperwork. He doesn’t care about money enough to do anything about it. He’ll sign and flee.
I’m not worried about divorcing him… I’m worried about getting myself financially independent of him or any relatives. That MUST happen first.
Chump Nation keeps my eye on the prize and grounds me firmly in reality. Thank you!
And don’t.even.get.me.started on chances. 13 years of chances, with only a 5-year break in physical affairs. Maybe. I very much doubt that’s the case either. But he sure amped up his video game trysts. And admitted flirting with staff, several in particular. And carpooled quite often. And slept over a few times when the weather was really bad. But NOTHING HAPPENED. They’re older women; he would NEVER. “Ew.”
Uh huh. The last ho-worker is 6 months older than my MOTHER. He LOVES older women. They’re always either much older or only slightly older but ugly heiffers. We’re talking bowling balls with perms, makeup, nails did, and toe rings.
I told him to be smart, the next time he cheats on me. Older women with money LOVE him; they flirt with him incessantly. I told him to make sure it’s a woman with no children and lots of money, so him losing half his income to us won’t hurt… which means he’ll not flee, keep his job, and at least still PRETEND to love his children. The new woman will want to see him “being a good father” or she’ll find out how much he actually does suck that much sooner. He’ll pretend incessantly, then. For her, not for them. As long as they don’t feel entirely abandoned, that’s fine.
I even point them out for him. He acts disgusted. heh. He’s only disgusted because I’m right and there’s no fun in having an affair when your wife has already made your mark for you.
IOH, you have such clarity on your situation. I wish you all the best in your job search. Sooner or later some employer is going to see what a smart capable person you are.
I appreciate the well wishes, thank you. 🙂
Unfortunately, I can’t list transforming a poor asshole with legal trouble overflowing from every pore into a middle-class, covert asshole with a nice home in the best district and a “family man” with three beautiful children and a good, stable career on my resume. 😛
Or that I sacrificed my career for his, literally. I literally gave him my job when he lost his and did nothing for months to rectify that… because he couldn’t grow people, nurse them, care for and nurture them, and NOT spend money we didn’t have while staying at home, much less keep a household running. All he had to do was show up and do the job I taught him to do.
Or that I, again literally, have gotten him every job he’s had this entire time, even when he was fired for fucking a co-worker’s ex-girlfriend in the lunch room.
Or that I coach him on how to behave/react to work situations, to get promoted, or how to NOT get fired.
Or that I sell FOR him to the extent that I sell his product so well that all he has to do is wait for them to show up and write the sale.
Or that I send letters to prospective clients and all he has to do is sell them what they need.
Or that I have been offered his position (not to take away his but to ALSO work in that position at another location) by every manager he’s ever had because they know when he’s HIM and when I’ve coached him. That I’ve turned it down, every time, because it requires nights and weekends and I will NOT have him being a SAHD and end up having to pay him alimony and child support, since working that position would not allow me custody of my own children.
That sounds bitter, right? It is… because it’s true. The tea has steeped too long. It’s bitter. It’s NOT ONLY my opinion that it’s bitter. It IS bitter.
It’s also bitter because while selling for him, I forgot to sell for myself. I’m remembering that I have to sell myself to prospective employers and improve with every failure to close the deal for myself. But I WILL get there again. This is only temporary.
Today, I’m applying for a job (M-F: 8-5, with the ability to leave anytime after 3 if you’ve hit your quota) I was offered almost 10 years ago. I landed it and HARD, then. Three rounds of interviews and a written offer and package. I declined because I lived in a false reality and didn’t know he was cheating. He’d had a job offer too – one I applied to as him. When the offer came in, the day after I received mine, and they wanted to talk to him, I told his unemployed ass that I had gotten him the ob and he just needed to answer the phone. One of us would have to stay home because of the schedule and since we had 3 children, 2 and under, And I turned down this job. I would have left him, if I’d known the truth.
I’d appreciate prayers from the praying types and good luck/vibes/whatever from anyone willing.. that I can get this job again. I know the truth now and will not forego my future for his sake ever again.
What can you sell and where are you located. I might have an idea for you b
New York State (nothing more specific here for obvious reasons. 😛 )
I’ve sold for Omnipoint>Voicestream>T-Mobile, AT&T>Cingular>back to AT&T (reverse merger weirdness), Verizon, Deluxe Corp. (FI checks, which had surprisingly-high commissions), made and sold nursing necklaces and custom aprons. I’ve cleaned houses (SUPER money from just putting up fliers on grocery and church bulletin boards but the taxes were killer) and fully cater a wedding about once a year. (I’m asked all the time but only do it for close friends/family.) I drum up and send business to my husband for high-end furniture through being social with parents at our children’s school and sending out letters to new homeowners from the real estate transactions section in the Sunday paper. I’ve been an office manager for a graphic design firm and a bookkeeper for a construction company, in both of which I negotiated commission from the start. They had clients who wouldn’t pay and I persuaded them to… by researching and pointing out new prospects for them, to afford to pay the balances owed, and suggesting how they could pay x-much now and gain these new clients, which they could only get by using us for [insert my proposition here].
My strength is primarily in building rapport quickly and easily. I look friendly and have a nice voice. I can let a silence linger longer than most. I have experience in a staggeringly-wide range of skills and backgrounds. I’m interested in learning how to do just about everything and want to know why it works… so when people go on and on, my reaction is not feigned interest; I really am interested and I think they can tell. It puts people at ease.
I will add, here, that I CANNOT sell girly things. Makeup, lotions, nails, purses, knick knacks, dishes, books, etc. I can’t because I don’t like those things, myself, beyond basic use. I know how to accomplish those results cheaply or think they’re not worthwhile (sorry to those who do- that’s what’s important to other people but it isn’t for me) and cannot sell things I don’t think will help them. “Multi-level” marketing is not for me. I have tried it and it feels wrong, for me. I cannot chase down people to buy things that I think they absolutely don’t need… because I don’t value it myself and/or know something else that will work better for a fraction of the price.
Sending you great vibes on the job, IOH!! You are truly mighty.
Something stated with authentic emotion is not rendered INVALID. Ever. Very much the opposite.
Passion is the energy that fuels the best communication. It’s what drives us to find strong words and phrases to express ourselves clearly and without ambiguity. It gives us direction in our narratives. It’s an emotion that’s effective in parliamentary debates and letterbox advertising leaflets. It’s how empaths reach out and touch each others’ hearts and minds.
CL and its comments are full of passion. There’s anger, there’s joy, there’s devastating sadness, there’s strength and encouragement, there’s humour. It’s all borne out of our myriad experiences which have one conclusion in common: no more cheaters, no more cheating, no more lies, no more shit sandwiches. No, not even our most beloved’s shit sandwiches with that jolly brightly-coloured-cellophane-decoration toothpick stuck through them. Just, no.
So when someone lays down another tale of devastation brought about by YET ANOTHER narcissistic cheating assclown playing from the same goddamn playbook as all the other narcissistic cheating assclowns working for The Cirque du Entitlement, YES we’re going to get fucking angry and YES we’ll weep and laugh and give the best kind of support our experiences have taught us can lead the abused to a safe place of self-protection, recovery, and a better life. Without the abuser.
Brava, HopeAndGloria!