Dear Chump Lady, “I need to forgive the OW” — WTF?

forgivenesstrollDear Chump Lady,

My divorce was final just 3 months ago in October. I went back to using my maiden name. I have been living with family since June (7, going on 8 months) and I expect to be living here until May. Meanwhile, cheater ex and the OW live together. Life is going on. I am moving on as much as I can from D-Day.

I was out with my sister, her husband, and another couple the other night for dinner. I am the 5th wheel. My 8-year-old son calls me in the middle of dinner and I answer. He is with his father for the weekend. You bet I’m answering. He is telling me about his weekend. OW bought him Beats earbuds. And they made rock candy!!! Can WE make candy at home?? I love that he called me. It’s the reason I bought the phone in the first place. I was doing what the Sane Parent does. I listened and showed interest in what he was doing.

After I hung up, my sister said she was really impressed with how I handled that so well. I was happy to receive the praise and told her that it’s hard when it comes to the OW. I have been completely No Contact (she blocked me when I found out who she was) and as much as I love my son, I don’t want to making f*%$ing rock candy. But, I am gracious with him. HE is trying to navigate his new world. I said that I was just happy that Cheater Ex and OW seem to treat my son well.

After hearing this, the married friend (woman) across from me said something along the lines of “and you need to forgive her.” I had to ask her to repeat herself. And she actually said it again. I furrowed my brow, leaned in and said, “Jane (not her real name), I have to forgive myself for picking the Cheater in the first place. And, SHE knew what she was doing when she started a relationship with a man who had a wife and child.”

My anger came quick and unapologetically. My blood pressure soared and I feared I had upset others at the table so I apologized for snapping at her. I mean, the tension was tangible. My sister had to stop her from saying anything else. (My sister and brother-in-law were on my side. They were as angry as I was that she would even broach the subject. During dinner. In a public place. But I didn’t realize it until we got home.)

Jane and I are friends. We both actively seek relationship with God. We both know that we have been given grace and blessings that only God can give. And I understand that there is a grain of truth to what she said. But how dare she? It’s this kind of stuff that sets me back on my road to Meh. It makes me feel alone to navigate my experience, my trauma, and my healing in a world of smug, married people. Until you’ve walked in my shoes, you don’t get a say. And you certainly don’t know the timetable for healing. It’s different for everyone. I dare you to take a moment to just PRETEND your spouse did what mine did. I bet you can’t even handle that, Lady.

So what would you have done? Other than posting on social media as I have done before, how do WE, the Faithful Ones, best handle these people? Because, frankly, I wish to be direct and firm. And angry. Is that anger considered “righteous anger”?

conniered…and pissed.

Dear Conniered,

What would I have done? Tracy probably would’ve sat there gobsmacked at Jane’s smug idiocy and fumbled for a rejoinder. Chump Lady, however, would’ve let loose both barrels. (Consequently, Chump Lady doesn’t get invited to too many dinner parties.)

“So, Jane, you sanctimonious bitch, who appointed you Jesus? Nice of you to sit there smug, enjoying the incandescent glow of your coupledom, and tell this recent divorcee how she’s doing Rebuilding Her Life All Wrong. Forgive the OW? A cheater who thinks she is perfectly splendid and did nothing wrong? And who doesn’t want my forgiveness?

“Yeah, Jane. I’ll order up some instant magnanimity to go with my shit sandwich entree. Now then, as long as we’re giving orders — Quit cheating on your husband, Jane. The only sort of person who squirms around chumps and demands chumps unilaterally forgive cheaters, are cheaters themselves.

“How dare I say such a thing? How dare I make assumptions about your personal life and morals? Oh Janey, Jane, Jane — I’d rather be me than you. Is that a syphilitic boil on your neck? You should have that looked at.”

Chump Lady would then get up and excuse herself from Jane’s company.

I know, Conniered. We never think of these things when idiots broadside us. I think you handled it quite well. You naturally got upset. If anyone should’ve apologized in that instance, it’s Jane not you. She’s the one who gave offense! Even if she was the most misguided of Forgiveness Trolls, she should care that she hurt you. I’m not reading where she was tripping all over herself to apologize.

Oh that’s right. We can’t apologize to the Bitter People.

Look, forgiveness is nobody’s business but YOURS. Next time someone asks impertinent questions about your forgiveness status, do what my Methodist minister father does when people proselytize at his door — he asks about their sex lives.

Good luck.

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newchumpatl
newchumpatl
8 years ago

I love CL’s answer.. but another good response when someone says “You should forgive the OW”.. say “Forgiveness is a gift, and not a gift I wish to bestow on someone as undeserving as that whore”. Forgiveness is a gift. You are under NO obligation to give it.

Hang in there.

With Brave Wings
With Brave Wings
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

This is someone’s comment a long time ago on another post…

“As much as I consider forgiveness to be freeing, graceful, and something we should all strive for, it is impossible if the offender offers no apology or recognition of the damage they caused. Period. You can accept, disconnect, and move on.”

Working It Out
Working It Out
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

Love this response

OrlandoMB
OrlandoMB
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

Although I like your response, I believe the gift is a gift you give yourself. However, in this situation, the whore would also be a recipient of the gift. Very tough waters to navigate. On one hand you need to free yourself of anger and on the other you want to avoid absolving the dirty whore.

Nord
Nord
8 years ago
Reply to  OrlandoMB

I don’t think you need to forgive to ‘free yourself from anger’. I don’t forgive any of the people who went out of their way to fuck up my life in a huge, huge way – cheating was just the trigger to much bigger problems. I see no need to forgive them. They full well knew what they were doing, how it would impact me and my kids, and they chose to do it anyway.

The anger is rarely present these days because I have moved on. And I was able to do that while still recognising there are some things that are unforgivable and I’m really, really ok with moving on whilst still knowing that there are some really horrible people in the world that I managed to remove from mine.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  OrlandoMB

Beg to differ; forgiveness is not a gift you give yourself, letting go of the anger (eventually) is a gift you give yourself. Making a new life is a gift you give yourself. This emphasis on “forgiveness” of people is overrated, and there is now research that it is HARMFUL for therapists (or others) to plug “forgiveness” of the cheater or OW/OM.

No one should tell anyone else how to heal.

Conniered–Jane is not a friend.

creativerational
creativerational
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I’m with Tempest & CL. Jane either has the bible blinders on and she is a bible narc looking for God/cool points and wanted such a touching case study in her lexicon of stories for the next bible stuffy (oops. Study) (because she’s soooooooo in touch and the holt spirit just moved in her and said she needed to help you by letting you know that God wants you to forgive.. With no ducking actual clue of what you’re going through, thus no place to comment.) or she and hub have got some shit to deal with.

Maybe she was speaking from a place of ‘I hope I help by showing her the way to prevent being a bitter Debbie downer’ … And if that’s the case, I almost forgive her (Bahahahaha) but especially after it came from a really positive phone call where you handled the whole situation amicably- it’s none of her damn business! In fact… I have a friend who is a lactation expert, who noted that most moms don’t stress about their babies or themselves- it’s what other people think if they use formula (once, part time, ever, whatever) her advice: lie. ‘All boob all the time. This baby has had all the boob juice’ it’s none of their business and you worrying about other people’s little feelers about the situation is ridiculous when you’re obviously figuring it out and your kid is pretty ok and your ex and schmoopie are… Whatever. Lie ‘forgive them? Oh you mean forgave them. Did that last Tuesday. All finished.” Insert something adorably new age for the people who are so biblical they forget to be about WWJD ‘yeh, I went to the scientology centre and after a few e-meter readings they said I was good, then I saw a reiki master for a few sessions and she referred me to a yogic flyer. Now that I’m really in the flow with the natural law of it all, I’m totally seeing how my path to forgiveness was already behind me. And then Jesus acame in my dreams and gave me a high five so now I just need to check in with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I’m good” (shit,.. That derailed and got sarcastic at the end. I suggest deadpan serious for maximum efficacy)

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago

Bible Blinders…. Loooooove it!!

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago

A+, creativerational!

Sweetsunny
Sweetsunny
8 years ago

This is awesome!!!

kb
kb
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Agreed, Jane is not a friend. A friend would have your back.

For what it’s worth, I view “meh” as a type of forgiveness. Anger takes up emotional real estate. I think it’s a valuable tool to get us motivated to change and the strength to follow through. But it’s not a good thing over the long term.

Given that I actively wished my ex-husband death–preferably in a single car accident on a late night commute home–the fact that I no longer actively wish him dead is pretty good. Magnanimous, even.

Have I forgiven him? Nope. He hasn’t even admitted he’s had an affair/is having one, and he certainly hasn’t asked for my forgiveness.

TrustingGod
TrustingGod
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

I don’t think meh is a kind of forgiveness. I think it is the sign that you have forgiven. I try not to confuse forgiveness with restoration of relationship, or the development of a positive one with someone who has wronged me and is unrepentant. The OW here isn’t repentant, and there is no reason for a relationship with her. Forgiving her means not getting angry at what she did anymore, not calling her names and swearing at her. Forgiving the cheater means not caring about him or his cheating or who he’s with now. (Forgiving crappy parenting skills or abandonment or lack of financial responsibility is a separate issue of forgiveness.) Restoration would be an amicable friendship or being married again–no, thanks. I look forward to fully forgiving my husband someday, which, yes, would mean no longer hoping he dies in a car accident on his way home from work…just not caring what happens to him anymore. But no restoration. He had multiple chances to repent and did not, so he is to be to me, as the scripture says, as a tax collector (scorned, ignored, etc.). I’ve already decided to forgive him, because I don’t want to be angry and bitter. I don’t like it. I just use it for now. But the feelings don’t come right away. No one has a right to say what our feelings should be, or when they should change.

Scott
Scott
8 years ago
Reply to  TrustingGod

Maybe it’s a semantic thing, but what you describe sounds like acceptance.

TrustingGod
TrustingGod
8 years ago
Reply to  Scott

I think forgiveness is a semantics problem. We could probably be less offended at others if we assume their definition of forgiveness matched ours. Then when they tell us we need to forgive, we could just say we have every intention of doing so, and are well on our way there.

Scott
Scott
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

Also agree here. Jane’s not a friend. Lose her. Fast. Now. You’re seeing what took me two hard years to see. Switzerland is a position. Mildly, lightly, “kindly” advocating for your ex, is not acceptable. If Jane were your friend she would have lit up your ex and slapped fives about the lack of ethics and decency shown by both your ex and his ho bag. Make no excuses for these people. Walk away and don’t go back. No more dinners with Jane. She PICKED HER SIDE. Move on without her. And for that matter, anyone who tells you your path of healing, acceptance, and growth is wrong.

And don’t be shy. Make it known the next time someone asks why you don’t hang out with Jane. “She decided to take my ex’s side.” And then refuse to discuss it further. Because you know what? She did take your ex’s side.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  Scott

Wow, Scott. I never looked at it that way. Why wasn’t she pissed FOR me??? I think i know. She has “dabbled” before.

Kelly
Kelly
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Jane is an arrogant bully… a “forgiveness bully.”

And no Jane, Conniered is not forgiving OWifestress who is not repentant for destroying a marriage and family, and who never turned from her sinful ways (although perhaps she can claim rock candy redemption).

Nice try though.

I agree with CL, Jane sounds like a cheater apologist. I wonder why?

Scott
Scott
8 years ago
Reply to  Kelly

Forgiveness Bullies are all around. And they’re blind to what they are asking, thinking, saying, and doing. It comes from a place of their own guilt. You are correct. She’s a cheater apologist. Kind of like that commercial, “what’s in your wallet?” I’d ask, “what’s in your past?” Why does my forgiveness or lack thereof mean so much??

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  Scott

I do agree that forgiveness bullies are around but I think many are just clueless. They haven’t gone through the trauma, they don’t comprehend the depth of pain. They are parroting what they’ve heard in church, but they haven’t really experienced it. If they had, they wouldn’t be telling you to forgive the OW.

Maybe you should have leaned over and said “I’m not a place where I can forgive the OW, but I will forgive you for being clueless.”

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

To forgive is to release the indebted from a debt. It does not absolve responsibility or start things back at square one. It is a choice to stop trying to collect on a debt owed by a deadbeat who will never fulfill his/her obligation. Nothing more. It also implies that no further help is available because now the deadbeat has proven s/he is not a safe debt risk.

Forgiving is about letting the past be in the past. However, here’s the new and non-negotiable agreement: if you’re an asshole today, you will receive a response that is befitting of an asshole today. So get ready.

Ambivalent chump
Ambivalent chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Ha ha, I love that. I may use that.
The other one that really hurts that I have had from friends is “I can understand how people can get to a place where they cheat but I can’t understand how they don’t do a better job of not getting caught”. This was a person who had been a bridesmaid at my wedding that said that. Instead of loosing my temper, which is how I felt inside, I mumbled on about exit affairs!

Chumpalumper
Chumpalumper
8 years ago

You handled yourself well! I’d say that you’re further along the road to Meh than you realize.

Chumpfor21
Chumpfor21
8 years ago

All I can say is …..Jane, you ignorant slut………

Hang in there C. You did fine. Most of us would have slapped her right into her smug soup.

Daisy
Daisy
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpfor21

“Jane, you ignorant slut” is the PERFECT response. Of course, it dates anyone who gets it but still… 😀

Boudica Reborn
Boudica Reborn
8 years ago
Reply to  Daisy

And for those who weren’t around (or weren’t watching) during the first years of Saturday Night Live and don’t understand the reference, here ya go 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jEVCX-d4Zk

Cletus
Cletus
8 years ago
Reply to  Boudica Reborn

This is a whole bunch of AWESOME!!!…

chumpfor21
chumpfor21
8 years ago
Reply to  Cletus

Heehee

Old SNL always makes me chuckle!

IanDubito
IanDubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpfor21

Oh yeahr…

This ^^^^^ A billion times this! ^^^^^

HeLovesMeHeLovesMeNot
HeLovesMeHeLovesMeNot
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpfor21

LOL!! perfect!

MidlifeBlast
MidlifeBlast
8 years ago

I like that you called out her cheating, wonder how she met her husband.

Some people have come out with this crap to me. And other crap like asking if I’m going to get back with my ex. Um…. No?!? Why would anyone ask that? Then it’s usually about ten mins after that someone will whisper in my ear that the person asking was/is a cheater. It’s so damn interesting. I can now see if someone is a cheater or not from their perspective on my experience.

Boudica Reborn
Boudica Reborn
8 years ago
Reply to  MidlifeBlast

“It’s so damn interesting. I can now see if someone is a cheater or not from their perspective on my experience.”

MidlifeBlast, you nailed it! You and CL and everyone else who has come to that conclusion! I have also observed similar reactions when I tell my story. I’ve actually had people take a step away from me when I disclosed what happened, even though I usually keep it short and present it with class.

Projection, much?

MidlifeBlast
MidlifeBlast
8 years ago
Reply to  Boudica Reborn

and there’s quite a few of them about right Boudica? And it’s the MARRIED ones, the single scumbags are doing single scumbag stuff, but I feel like my recent events brought all the married lowlifes out of the woodwork and also made a couple of married girlfriends uncomfortable too.

Tequilatamm
Tequilatamm
8 years ago
Reply to  MidlifeBlast

I agree with all 3 of you. It was one of the most interesting gifts I received in the whole narc ex thing. It was like finding out you can talk to spirits or predict the future.

I have been able to separate the solid marriages from the cheater marriages. I can tell exactly who is a cheater and who is not, by their demeanor and the direction they cast their eyes if I tell my story.

It’s SO obvious now, and easy to pick the cheaters and the marriages in trouble, and sometimes it’s difficult and sad to have that awareness.

My own sister’s reaction was so strange. She was almost mean to me. It took me awhile to realize that she was freaking out that I left my narc because it “looks bad” when you have been pretending to have that perfect marriage, and I let the jig be up. I think she was afraid I’d discover her own situation was the same. I’m now positive her husband cheats on her. But I would never “out” them. It’s not my business to blow the whistle, but only to support her when the shit finally comes down.

A gift and a curse. But I’m glad I can see the forest for the trees. And yes, Jane is definitely a cheater. No doubt.

chumplisa
chumplisa
8 years ago
Reply to  MidlifeBlast

The smug judgy married girlfriends (if you can even call them that) are the WORST!

nomar
nomar
8 years ago

Forgiveness of cheating spouses isn’t my job and it’s above my pay grade. That is entirely His responsibility.

I don’t much think of my cheating ex these days (6 days post D-day), but when I do it’s with a firm conviction that she’s an asshole and an abiding concern that she will by her association make the lives of my sons more painful and difficult. I don’t hate her, but I know who she is. Much as I regard Bernie Madoff, O.J. Simpson, and the dickweed 6th grade bully who made me eat dirt in 3rd grade. They’re all dangerous characters best recognized and avoided.

But forgiveness? No, not my job. Tell Jane when you want her advice on how to recover from infidelity you will ask. In the meantime, Fuck her and feed her Froot-Loops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpQNLZRcNA4

Kelly
Kelly
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Yes! Love this song (and I figured it was 6 years and not 6 days Nomar!)

oaktree
oaktree
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Wow nomar, that’s excellent! Thanks, I have always liked Iris Dement, and that song is perfect for me right now.

But I have a question: you say you’re not thinking of cheater ex much (6 days post-DDay); did you mean 6 years? 6 days after I could barely remember my own name or come up with polysyllabic responses tom y kids’ questions. Just wondering…

nomar
nomar
8 years ago
Reply to  oaktree

Oops, yes. 6 years. I was a zombie at 6 days, still stuck in a nightmare false reconciliation. And yet yourself from a chaotic cheating spouse, including how the passage of time feels.

“Time flies when your head’s not stuck in a blender.”

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

I agree entirely with your point Nomar! I’ve always believed that it was mighty presumptuous of people who believe that they could forgive anyone. I don’t think we have that power. I like how you stated its above your pay grade too!

It’s my job to accept what’s happened and move on to a better life. That’s the only gift I can give myself. Forgiveness of the ex or his OWife needs to come from above!

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  cheaterssuck

Maybe a good retort would be “I’m working on acceptance of what OW and my ex have done, forgiveness is too much to ask right now.”

Basically I think people are just really uncomfortable around anger and bitterness, but it’s part of the process of grief and life altering changes forced on you against your will. It’s not exactly like you can skip all those emotions and go straight to forgiveness.

Kay
Kay
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

I’d want to say what I would say to my 5 year old “worry about yourself”. Jeez man. So immature really. But it still hurts when people say crap like that.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago
Reply to  cheaterssuck

“It’s my job to accept what’s happened and move on to a better life.’

Exactly so. Well put and succint.

Like your Beantown sports graphic, BTW. Sox looking good for 2016!

Cheaterssuck
Cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Loved loved loved they pitching improvements! Looking forward to the season starting!

75 days until Opening Day!

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

“Forgive” a person who willfully helped orchestrate the ruin of your marriage and family? Because she makes rock candy with your eight year old?! NO!

Just because she isn’t treating your son like an intrusion (for now) doesn’t mean she’s not a horrible woman to the core.

Good for you for not letting that twit at the table say something so imbecilic without responding.

She needs to ask you for forgiveness.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

I love Iris DeMent. I haven’t listened to her in years. Thanks for the clip, Nomar.

Chumptastic
Chumptastic
8 years ago

Conniered, I can’t WAIT to be as mighty as you – you truly rock!!

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumptastic

Ha! Thanks Chumtastic. That was really nice to read!! Some days I am mightier than others. Day by Day….

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago

I think you handled that blindsided ignorant remark very well. Extremely well. I fear I would have thrown the table over and said, “fuck you!,” and challenge her to a duel.

It will happen again and when it does look them in the eye and say, “Forgiving _ _ _ _ _ is between me and God.”

That takes their sanctimonious so-called “Christian” advice and shoves it up their _ _ _. If she is TRULY ignorant, it will silence her.

I am with CL on this. The first thought I had was, “Jane’s a cheater.”

paula
paula
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

” I fear I would have thrown the table over and said, “fuck you!,” and challenge her to a duel.”
Oh CJ – you make me wildly happy! Honestly, that tickled the crap out of me!!

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
8 years ago

Jesus says in Luke that we forgive IF someone repents. Has the OW repented in your opinion, Jane?

Tracy
Tracy
8 years ago

Amen and amen…..to all the above. I actually had my husband’s Whore tell me that God forgives ALL sin and she knows she sinned but she’s forgiven and we can all move on with our lives. **church lady voice** Well isn’t that special??
Move on…..I think the whore meant Move INTO….as in my house…using my kitchen stuff…sleeping on my sheets…. yep….she’s all forgiven and accepted by his family and my one daughter so I guess that makes it all OK….

Fuck that….
Fuck……..that…

And I am a Christian….and I do follow the Divorce Minister….I do read my Bible and I know what Jesus says about forgiveness. I’m pretty sure as he hung up on that cross and said “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”….he didn’t mean they were not acting out of their own decisions. They knew….they decided…they plotted. I think what they “didn’t know” was the depths of what they did and the affect it would have…..it wasnt just about their political standing….or religious leadership….. it was bigger than that….shit was about to get real….and they had no idea how real….
Sorry….my street jail preaching comes out.

Forgive….. I will not forgive that whore or my husband. I have a Savior that understands my hurt and pain….if he can’t accept me because I refuse to forgive him….then that’s between me and God. Then everything I believe is bullshit.
I hope it isnt. But….things have happened to shake my belief.

You have to have a contrite heart…..a heart that mourns for what you’ve done. Those two bitches that railroaded me don’t have one ounce of that……

Let’s not forget…..God is a god of justice….and sites people…..Sodom and Gomorrah. …Lot and his Wife???

Forgive…..I’ll forgive when my husband is truly sorry and asks for my forgiveness…..until then….
Fuck them

ByeByeCheater
ByeByeCheater
8 years ago

agreed!

Boudica Reborn
Boudica Reborn
8 years ago

Perfect, quick response DM! Conniered, below is a more elaborate response (in case you need it) to those smug, sanctimonious religious folks that may cross your path in the future. It isn’t just Christians that play the you-must-forgive-no-matter-what card.

“Unconditional forgiveness is canceling a debt to all those who intentionally offend us, whether or not they own up to what they have done. Offering forgiveness without repentance, however, does not follow the biblical model of forgiveness (Luke 17:3,4).” – Questions.org

Fixing a steady gaze at the person while delivering the information helps to let them know they’ve out-of-line (and, as stated above, ignorant).

SaraS
SaraS
8 years ago

I agree 100%, Divorce Minister–very well said. Repentance means CHANGING THE BEHAVIOR. “Go, and sin no more” versus having your cake (“I’m cheating with your spouse!”) and eating it too (“I demand forgiveness!”). One of the dozens of OW my ex-husband slept with called me crying and texted me and outright *demanded* that I forgive her. Of course, she explained she was demanding forgiveness for MY sake, because didn’t I know that Jesus couldn’t forgive ME for MY sins unless I forgave her?! I laughed so hard that I cried. It occurred to me that she was a wack job and they deserved each other. I truly didn’t feel Jesus required me to forgive someone who was pregnant with my then-husband’s baby, living with him in MY home, and living entirely off my dime. I contemplated it and thought, ‘That’s not really being sorry’.

I pretend they don’t exist, except in this Parallel Universe of Disordered & Sick People–a universe that I take drastic measures to avoid. The truth is that I feel nothing for either of them over two years after the divorce papers have been signed. That’s my way of “forgiving”.

As a Christian, it’s our responsibility not to let hatred or unrighteous anger at another person eat away at us or drive us away from God. It’s NOT our job (I liked the earlier comment “It’s above my pay scale”) to bestow forgiveness, eternal or otherwise–that’s between them and God.

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  SaraS

“As a Christian, it’s our responsibility not to let hatred or unrighteous anger at another person eat away at us or drive us away from God. It’s NOT our job (I liked the earlier comment “It’s above my pay scale”) to bestow forgiveness, eternal or otherwise–that’s between them and God.”

This is exactly how I see it. I have to let go of bitterness and anger to move forward with my life. To me, forgiveness means that I let thoughts of revenge go and leave that up to God or the Universe to deal with.

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  SaraS

Good one. In my universe there are no cheaters. I will drop people out of my circle of life if I see or hear of it. If any of my kids did it, I would not stop loving them I would call them out and not speak to them until they did the right thing. No excuses none. I raised them better than their pos dad ever could.

This Chump medicated for your protection
This Chump medicated for your protection
8 years ago

If you offer an unrepentant OW forgiveness she can’t or won’t accept it as it would be an admission of sin.

OW will choose image control over her soul every time.

So sad.

SnakebitNoMore
SnakebitNoMore
8 years ago

“Jane, forgiving the whore just isn’t a very high priority for me right now. Resisting the temptation to strangle the fucking bitch and set her hair on fire is taking up my energy and focus right now. I need to stay out of jail for the sake of my kids, so that forgiveness shit will just have to wait.”

Tracy
Tracy
8 years ago
Reply to  SnakebitNoMore

Jane…..stay out of jail…..trust me….it’s not a good place to be. It is NOT Orange is the New Black…..it sucks….and those assholes aren’t worth it. I can say that…because I spent 10 months there…..not all my fault…I was set up by my husband….but still…..

I also dreamt of setting the whores hair on fire….as I had her duck taped to a pole with her eyes duck taped open….as I waved lighter fluid in front of her…. yea….arson is a felony….so is murder….10 months was enough for me.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  SnakebitNoMore

Snakebit–you’re my kind of woman!

kaycan
kaycan
8 years ago
Reply to  SnakebitNoMore

I am so stealing this!

BetrayedNoMore
BetrayedNoMore
8 years ago
Reply to  SnakebitNoMore

This was my response as well. My cheater wife asked why I can’t find it in my heart to forgive her.

Darlin’… Consider yourself lucky I haven’t burned your perfect page 16 Pottery Barn catalog house down to the ground.

Tracy
Tracy
8 years ago
Reply to  BetrayedNoMore

^^^^^^^^^THIS….. and with them in it…. lucky indeed.

Susan
Susan
8 years ago
Reply to  SnakebitNoMore

^^^Love this!

I got this same line from my daughter’s shrink who thought if the “women could meet and talk” we’d all accept OW now that she’s living with STBX. Really….. not going to happen and since my kids are grown, there’s no reason we need to meet each other. If my kids want to meet her and they ask me to do the same, then I would consider it but I’d have lots to say that she won’t ever want to here!

Kelly
Kelly
8 years ago
Reply to  Susan

Her shrink is delusional.

violet
violet
8 years ago

I am not religious, but isn’t forgiveness reserved for people who acknowledge their wrongdoing? Doesn’t sound like OW believes she needs forgiveness, so why should she receive it? And why is it any of Jane’s business whether or not you decide to forgive…anyone? Sounds to me that she stuck her nose precisely where it did not belong.

To me, this whole forgiveness thing is yet another way to make us chumps feel bad about ourselves. OW in my situation is a classic Jesus cheater, who is constantly telling everyone that she “isn’t perfect, just forgiven.” Barf. One of her friends tried that crap on me and I was more than happy to inform her that I would never forgive a person that doesn’t think she did anything wrong in the first place!

I have absolutely no need or desire to remove a single ounce of responsibility from OW for her conduct. If that makes me a bitter bitch, so be it. There are some things that are simply unforgivable. Knowingly breaking up a family is one of them.

LivingMyLife
LivingMyLife
8 years ago

I had my mom, ask to see a picture of the OW. When she did, her comment,” awe she’s cute.” And a friend say, “she’s a real cutie.” They were just ignorant and trying to figure out why my H would cheat on me. That’s how most people are, they blame the chump. I can’t say I haven’t thought similarly in the past before I got chumped. The thing is, I would have never said it to their face, but alas behind their back, I probably did. (It’s always a comparative thing about looks or actions that we as women mostly do) This is why, when you are harmed by others judgements or rude comments you should try with all our might, to speak up. We as chumps, need to change the blame game away from us. That insult to me was 3 yrs ago and it still hurts. They never knew it hurt me, but I wish I would have spoken up like you did. Kudos! My mom and friend are the ones I choose to forgive, because they are part of my life, the OW is lucky I didn’t go and key her car.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  LivingMyLife

Fucking Switzerlanding arseholes – the both of them. Who in their right mind calls someone who actively fucked you over “cute”!???

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  LivingMyLife

Not trying to be ugly, living my life, but if my daughter (when she grows up) shows me a picture of a whore who cheated with her husband, I will not say the slut is “cute.”. That’s just plain ridiculous. I would probably ” forgive” her being my mother but I would be on high alert around her. But a friend?? No damn way. Is that really what a Friend would say???

LIningUpDucks
LIningUpDucks
8 years ago

“I am not a doormat. I don’t forgive people who who fuck me over, think they did nothing wrong, and don’t even want my forgiveness. I know my worth. Too bad you don’t.”

uneffingbelievable
uneffingbelievable
8 years ago

I’d say “I think I need to forgive you first for thinking you have a right or any invitation to offer advice on something to which you have no clue”.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago

I like that response.

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
8 years ago

“and you need to forgive her.”

Uh, no. You don’t “NEED” to forgive her. You said exactly the right thing.

My mom, like others have commented, thinks I’m too hard on the OW. Over and over I’ve told her that of course I blame my cheater ex more, but she had no business coming in to our lives and simply having her way and she’s a horrible person for doing so.

My mom can’t get it, which is mystifying to me since she’s been cheated on a few times herself.

Some people just don’t get it!

Rarity
Rarity
8 years ago

Here’s my take on this as a fellow Christian:

The Bible actually says, “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.” (Luke 17:3) There are many, many verses about forgiveness, but there’s nothing that says you have to forgive someone who is actively sinning against you and does not believe s/he did anything wrong. Luke 17:3 says it right there: rebuke for the one who sins, forgiveness for the one who repents. There are passages about loving your enemies, but I don’t think that’s the same thing as forgiveness. So, Jane wasn’t just butting in on a subject she has no right to butt in on; her theology of forgiveness is just wrong.

An adulterous woman who doesn’t believe she did anything wrong doesn’t need forgiveness, she needs rebuke so that she can come to a place of understanding that what she did was wrong and repent.

However, this doesn’t mean we should keep contacting the OW to rebuke her and try to call her to repentance, especially if she has expressed a desire for no-contact. Jesus also told his disciples, “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.” (Matthew 10:14) When an OW hardens her heart against God’s truth, just leave her to her sin and leave the care of her soul to someone else.

2kids2love
2kids2love
8 years ago
Reply to  Rarity

THAT makes perfect sense, Rarity. Bravo! Or shall I say “AMEN!”

MovingOn
MovingOn
8 years ago
Reply to  Rarity

I think the problem with our society is that we aren’t supposed to rebuke anyone. We’re not supposed to judge; we’re just supposed to be fountains of unending understanding because the cheaters/liars/thieves probably had bad lives and didn’t get ponies for their birthdays or something, so we can’t judge them for acting out now. Maybe if our culture valued responsibility and loyalty more, there would be more rebuking of cheaters (and less cheating).

I have seen parents defend their children when the children are caught cheating on a test or assignment, so I have to wonder if a portion of the population was raised to think that there are certain types of cheating and stealing that are okay. As long as you don’t rob a bank, you can steal other people’s information (like plagiarizing an essay). As long as you don’t cheat on your taxes, it’s okay to cheat in other ways, like on your spouse (my ex to a tee– Mr. Scrupulous Accountant at tax time who had no problem with signing up for Ashley Madison and paying that cesspool of a site for years).

I am all for rebuking. I just wish that more people were.

Kelly
Kelly
8 years ago
Reply to  Rarity

“…shake the dust off your feet.”

Awesome Rarity, that is what we all are trying to do. It’ll be Tuesday and we will all have dustless feet.

Sasanka
Sasanka
8 years ago
Reply to  Rarity

And additionally, as a fellow Christian, I have learned that brother/sister is not simply ‘another human’ or a neighbour, it is a fellow Christian!!!
Therefore a person who knowingly and continuously hurts you and sins against you, and does not acknowledge or repent of their sin, is not and cannot be a ‘sister’ or a ‘brother’!!! No matter what they claim. They are not a new creation and do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them to be moved. Learned from a fantastic Christian web which helps victim of domestic violence, cheaters, and all flavours of abusers, ” A cry for Justice” by Pastor Jeff Crippen and Barbara Roberts. No, my ‘religious’ abuser is certainly not my ‘brother’ in Christ. How duped I was!!! …How I wish I realized this so much sooner trying to ‘save’ my ‘marriage’. The Lord says check the fruits!!! Not what they say. Many Christians are duped by Wolves in Sheep’s clothing sitting in the pews. Jesus cheater has a huge advantage with a Jesus chump. As we can be double chumpy, and they are certainly double snakey. I will be sure to teach my two daughters well. They are in more danger than a non christian chump in a way.

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  Sasanka

My thoughts are that you can’t “forgive” character flaws anyway. That is what the person is, like a liar. Any person can tell a lie, and be remorseful for it. But Liars make it a way of life, it is not only an action, it is their state of being.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  Rarity

Love this. Yes!!

Get Out Yo Seat and Chump Around
Get Out Yo Seat and Chump Around
8 years ago
Reply to  Rarity

Excellent. 🙂

yo
yo
8 years ago

You answered her much better than I would have. I probably would have just looked at her…tongue tied.CL as always has a brilliant response. Remember Miss Manners? She always knew what to do in all situations. She probably would have looked at Jane coldly and changed the subject.Or asked “Do you know this from experience?”

sunshine
sunshine
8 years ago
Reply to  yo

Haha, “do you know this from experience?” Love that!!!

Chumpedupchik
Chumpedupchik
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

When people say idiotic, insensitive and hurtful things to me, I usually reply with “are you trying to be rude or does it just come naturally?” OR “You DO realize what a terrible, shitty thing that is to say or insinuate? But in the case you didn’t, I’d like to give you a few moments to rephrase.” Then I’m just – crickets.

Minimizers trying to make their environment go back to “normal” or more comfortable for them. They don’t think about your feelings as much as their own. I don’t know if people making these forgiveness demands or suggestions is simply based on how they think it may alter/affect their own little orbit or if they’re all really cheaters. I think it’s possible some people are completely unnerved by the profound changes that occur when there’s a divorce. They should be pissed at the fucking cheater for that big fat ripple in the pond. It affects the betrayed the most and then works its way out to the people who are sort of at the edges. I’ve found those people at the “edges” are often more supportive because they are NOT so directly affected.

But, no matter. My Jesus cheater insists he has every right to expect forgiveness and that because he IS sorry that it’s also not at all wrong for him to demand that I stop swearing because it offends him. Still? Really?

Gah!!!!! We go in circles. He thinks a lifelong series of EAs (i doubt) isn’t THAT bad and certainly NOT adultery (hear his indignation?). I mean “just think of all the things I DIDN’T do that most people associate with REAL cheaters.”

Chump Nation – I just got nothing for that. I mean how do you respond to some fuckass cheater wanting to outline or list all the things he says he DIDN’T do? Is he just lying because he thinks he’s got me stuck here unless I can PROVE there were any PAs? Wtf? Clearly not sorry Bc he’s basically saying he really didn’t even DO anything. So what is it exactly I MUST FORGIVE? Sheesh! He can’t have it both ways – he calls me “an unforgiving colossal bitch.” And we start all over because then I say “What exactly is IT that you are haughtily demanding I forgive YOU for then?”

Bang. My. Head. On. Wall.

Sweetz
Sweetz
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpedupchik

Here is the thing regarding “EA’s”. These are designed to give a cheater all the pre-sex thrills and titillations…the emotional, mental, and physical sexual “build up” w/o being outed as “actually” cheating. These people are in fact, getting themselves “ready” for sex…but then, they take it on home to YOU for “finishing themselves off”…sort of like using Porn to get aroused first w/o masturbating…but carrying all those images into the bedroom as if they are “with” you. THAT is what I experienced over and over. My “innocent because I did not touch her” husband would get himself worked up into a lather with his contacts with other women, then make haste to our bedroom that same day to act out his fantasy USING MY BODY. But that’s not cheating right…I mean, not “technically”…. right?

So given THAT scenario, WHEN was sex ever really about “me”???? I could not be assured that he wanted me or was acting out his lust for someone else. This is like worshiping at the altar of BAAL and then when the frenzy was over, making haste to put the meat sacrifice on the altar of God. See, BAAL gets the primary excitation “work up”…but the actual chunk of meat gets flipped up onto God’s altar for a showing of “faithfulness”.

No thanks…kicked to the curb.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Sweetz – “So given THAT scenario, WHEN was sex ever really about “me”???? I could not be assured that he wanted me or was acting out his lust for someone else. This is like worshiping at the altar of BAAL and then when the frenzy was over, making haste to put the meat sacrifice on the altar of God. See, BAAL gets the primary excitation “work up”…but the actual chunk of meat gets flipped up onto God’s altar for a showing of “faithfulness”.”

I’m not sure who the alter of BAAL is but it seems like a frenzied statue somewhere. Gotta have lust and sex and more lust….

And, I’m not sure about the meat sacrifice either. But, the ‘meat’ I had only wanted his meat tenderized 3x/wk. I think I gave a lot to the Alter.

May the the Alter of Whore get his lousy sex, is all I can say.

Meh 🙂

TrustingGod
TrustingGod
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpedupchik

I hear you. My husband claimed it was all just a game, just one woman, but the more I investigated, the more I found and realized I just didn’t know this person that, frankly, disgusted me. And after over a year of my suffering and his making me feel worse instead of better, instead of repentance, I got, “I didn’t do anything wrong.” After moving out, he was back to, “I never cheated on you physically.” And I believe you, because you’re not a lying cheaterpants?

I also got that I’m not a good Christian because I didn’t forgive him, even though he apologized. (“Sorry, then,” after being prompted.) The marriage counselor at my church told me, after hearing everything (from me–he wouldn’t go after all), that it sounded pretty hopeless. He also thought that I had no proof of his cheating, and that it sounded more like a sex addiction. Yeah…no. My husband regularly abandoned me and our children to hang out with other people for years. He had ample opportunity, and men who aren’t definitely trying to cheat don’t have the conversations I saw, or join certain social media sites if they’re not actively trying to cheat.

I’ll try to save you the head-banging experience if I can. Your husband is a cheater, and unrepentant about it. He lied to you and gave attention that he promised to give only to you to other women. His word that it was only EA is worthless. Kick him to the curb, go no contact. He will only mess with your head more over time if you let him. Everything about you that is precious he is stomping underfoot, pearls to swine. Humility and repentance deserve forgiveness, and he’s not showing them to you. Denial and minimizing is to keep you from the moral high ground, so that you will accept worse treatment than you deserve. Admit to yourself that he doesn’t love you or respect you–trust that he sucks!

Kimberly
Kimberly
8 years ago
Reply to  TrustingGod

TrustingGod, this was very well put – thanks!

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Love it. Memorized it!

IanDubito
IanDubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

By far this is the best reply. I hope, hope, hope I can get all CL on the next assclown who says some apologist ignorant shit to me.

“Do you know this from experience?”

Perfect

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

Yeah, that’s perfect!

Regina
Regina
8 years ago

“Jane” is an insensitive bitch with zero appreciation for what you have gone through and are going through. I am VERY impressed with how you handled your son when your heart must have been sinking that OW is buying him off, and you were able to not let him know it.
You are much further along than many can imagine being, and maybe you would not want to choose to be in “Jane’s” company again any time soon (unless you have a zingy come back in mind before you go).
Agree with CL that it sound like she is a Cheater herself, or at least a soulless Narc who can’t feel real emotion.
Have to say I had no idea how much this hurts though until going through it. Thought people although devastated just walk away when they are treated so badly. But when there are years of life, kids, and shared futures, well, it is more pain than anyone can imagine.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  Regina

Yep. I can never truly find the words to really get to the root of it all. To be able to express the pain and anger and how it rears it’s ugly head from time to time. I now live with known “triggers” to the pain and anger….Thanksgiving and Christmas are biggies.

Regina
Regina
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

Dear Conniered; You will find by reading the archives that Cheaters delight in ruining any and every Holiday they can. Kid you not, this is what I heard from my Cheater:
He told me he found himself attracted to her & wanted her “around the 4th of July.”
He started screwing her “around Labor Day weekend.”
She had a Birthday the “day before mine.” (so couldn’t even read a horoscope without thinking of her)
Not that I am a big horoscope fan-but WTF? Was this necessary?
He admitted to me about the Cheating over Thanksgiving weekend which of course ruined Thanksgiving for a few years & Christmas too.
He lied about when it was saying it was years ago (it was current) and decided to tell me in an ugly, angry way on Memorial Day Weekend she was still in his life but would not tell me who!
Then he decide to tell me who it REALLY was- current HO-WORKER on the 4TH OF JULY!
Can this really be just a mistake?
Each time like another dagger in the heart!
I think they feel very powerful devastating you and your world. It is eviscerating.
I felt like asking him, you don’t want to ruin Easter too?
The next year my Mom died on Valentine’s Day, and no I am not kidding!

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  Regina

Regina, that’s terrible, but isn’t it so damn convenient that everything revolves around a holiday or birthday? Wow what a coincidence??? These f*cks are always willing to tell you the “truth” about what they have been doing, but only if they can hurt you badly with it. They suck but like the others have said, take back your holidays, change the days that you celebrate and if you possibly can, just think about what a sucky little toddler your stupid ex is to do this to you and say f*ck him.

Regina
Regina
8 years ago
Reply to  DeeL

Sucky little toddler! LOL!
Just the months would be more than enough info without ruining my memories of most Holidays and even the Birthday wasn’t safe! Every time I would start to make a recovery I would be brought to my knees again. Had been such a strong person before spending years with him, as am sure most of us were. It is amazing how one can be dismantled with relative ease by these monsters.
When he did tell me, he would yell at me viciously and always over the phone.
All that could be found was RIC BS.
Thank you CL and fellow Chumps for your humor, understanding and support!

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  Regina

That is just insane Regina!!! Wow. I am at a loss for words.

Arlo
Arlo
8 years ago
Reply to  Regina

Officially cancelling all 2016 holidays for you! You pick whatever days you want to celebrate whatever the hell you want, and throw in some extra mental health days too.

Regina
Regina
8 years ago
Reply to  Arlo

Thank you Tempest & Arlo! Want new Chumps to know that this is one of the Top Picks in the Cheaters Playbook to devastate you! At the time, I could not believe someone would be so cruel, now I see it as part of the Cheater Script, I wish I would have caught on faster and not been well, such a Chump!
Thanks for your support, you guys are the best.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Regina

Take back the cheater-stolen holidays, Regina!

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Do something mega-fun on each of them so that your new memory outweighs the old. Drink champagne, go paddle-surfing, ride a roller coaster. I’ve made an attempt to do that with most of the places I associate with X; went to London last summer (where X and I had spent many vacations), even wore my wedding gown to the opera (it was a non-traditional one–pale yellow, beaded evening dress so I didn’t look like Cinderella at the opera!). X robbed me of a quarter-decade of my life; I refuse to let him rob me of anything else.

LIningUpDucks
LIningUpDucks
8 years ago

Yes!

Nancy
Nancy
8 years ago

If your “friend” is a forgiver, she will forgive you for not forgiving.

300lbsLighter
300lbsLighter
8 years ago
Reply to  Nancy

Bahahahaha! Nice one, Nancy.

Chris W.
Chris W.
8 years ago

When people say stupid shit like that to me, about either forgiving Saddam or his AP, I respond, “Maybe, Someday”. It gives them literally nowhere to go. If they persist that you must do it NOW, LIKE TODAY, you just say, “Maybe, someday, that will happen”, and if they persist, they look like the belligerent asshole.

There is a weird phenomenon in our society today, I think driven by social media, where EVERYBODY feels the need to chime in “me, too”! on any scenario of life, even if they’ve never experienced it. I think this woman giving you advice to forgive the OW is a derivative of that phenomenon.

CL had a great column, I think before Thanksgiving, where in the comments we talked about the phenomenon and I was telling everyone that I have a friend who lost his 6 year old son in the Sandy Hook shooting, and everyone tells him stupid shit like, “you need to forgive the shooter, so that you can move on and heal!” It’s literally insanity, for someone who’s never lost a child to horrific gun violence, to offer up “their opinion” on how someone should heal and/or move on from an event so horrific, very few people on the planet can relate. Assholes will continue to exist, I fear.

Hang in there, you’re doing great. And it’s awesome that your sis and brother-in-law ate on your side.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Chris W.

What an insensitive shit to tell someone who has lost a child to a gunman that he/she should forgive the gun man. Not sure I would have enough self control to live through that. Now all I can image is the scene in “Fargo” with the woodchipper.

Kelly
Kelly
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

…just snorted with laughter….

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  Kelly

Do you know this from experience? LOL

Regina
Regina
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Oh yes Tempest! All that was left was that pilgrim shoe. Shut them up!

Tessie
Tessie
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I guess I’ve gotten a bit less tactful in my old age. When someone comes up with an asinine statement like that to me, I have been known to say…When you have walked a mile in my shoes, then you will be qualified to offer an opinion on whether or not I should forgive. If they decide to push it, I tell them to keep their opinion to themselves.

Doesn’t earn me many brownie points, but, frankly, I really don’t give a rip. Stupid statements like that are just verbal ignorance and intolerance.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tact is for the most part not useful when people lack empathy or see themselves as “knowing” what is right for others. And your reply is certainly civil; it’s just not weak and conciliatory.

Drew
Drew
8 years ago

Yeah, that whole forgiveness thing. I don’t owe it to any person who has wronged me and I certainly don’t owe it to the Narc man who trampled my heart (who minute by minute, hour by hour, and day by day made any number of decisions big and small to destroy me both personally and financially, the truths I have learned still make me angry, and I am six years out) and I certainly don’t owe it to a fuckall stranger who possesses bad morals. Not my job to figure out why she screwed my husband. I get to choose who I have in my life. There is no such thing as healthily relating to toxic people and I JUST DON’T CHOOSE TO anymore. In little kid terms I would no longer choose to play nice with the school yard bully than I would cultivate any friendship with OW (or POS ex) and it’s in my best interests NOT to. Who. doesn’t. fucking. get. this!?!?!?

Drew
Drew
8 years ago
Reply to  Drew

Also too healing is about forgiving myself, from wasting my one precious life with a guy who certainly did not recognize my worth and who treated me like shit. I still hung on thinking he’d change. That he would recognize how good he had it, that our life together was beautiful. Nope. Cheaters are a whole other story. The ex who said to me as he was walking out, “Every thing about my life is GOOD, except for you.”

Cheaterssuck
Cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  Drew

I agree Drew. I am too battling with forgiving myself for not trusting my instincts 29 years ago and then again after dday when I decided to stay and do the pick me polka for three years. Finally I need to forgive myself for not understanding my worth.

Oh and your ex is a total douche nozzle! What a total narc, asshole!!! So glad you got away from that piece of shit!

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Cheaterssuck

Drew and Cheaterssuck: I hope this will help. I kept every text, every email, every piece of correspondence that X send me pre- and post-D-day (why? because I am going to skewer him in a novel). As I started to re-read some of them, I forgave myself because these cheaters are GOOD–at charm, at deception, at weaseling out of consequences. They have a lot of practice, and many seasoned FBI agents wouldn’t be able to detect that they were lying. Honest folks like chumps are no match for that level of deception. We need to let ourselves off the hook.

Regina and intelligent people
Regina and intelligent people
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Cheater=Wiley coyote with unlimited credit at Acme Products (probably with YOUR credit card)
Chump=Elmer Fudd; which way did he go, which way did he go?
I know most Chumps here are well spoken and gifted writers as well as intelligent people to be sure. But it is easy to be outsmarted when your opponent is always up to something.

Regina
Regina
8 years ago

Speaking of Elmer Fudd, check out how I put part of the sentence in my name slot. Silly Wabbit1
Now without Cheater, west and wewaxation at wast!

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Good advice Tempest-Thanks!

KB22
KB22
8 years ago
Reply to  Drew

Whoa, your ex, what a piece of work! Any person that would come out with something that cruel needs to be out of your life. Good luck to his next victim.

Lastinline
Lastinline
8 years ago

I got completely fed up with the whole “be the bigger person” ages ago. Yeah, people being the bigger person after they’ve been screwed over only works out for the bad guys. Bad guys can do anything they want and then wait for onlookers to shake their fingers at the victim and demand that they be the bigger person. Meanwhile, the bad guys get away with everything, unchecked.

Well, fuck that shit! Hell, as a North Carolinian, I’m still considering alienation of affection and criminal conversation suits against some of my STBX husband’s paramours. I don’t even care about winning, just about exposing the whores. I mean, since getting a married man to fuck you is proof of your desirability (you know, since you’re so irresistible that married men will risk everything just for a piece of you), you should be proud to show the world how impressively irresistible you are, right?

I wish all states had those laws still on the books.

yo
yo
8 years ago
Reply to  Lastinline

“Be the bigger person?” Girl you already ARE the bigger person, since youre not the one who cheated.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  Lastinline

Me too LastinLine and oaktree, North Carolina and here. I wanted to file the criminal conversation against the OW but it’s hard to find a lawyer willing to do so. They find it frivolous apparently. Too many cheaters and they’d clog up the court system. I think it’s also a symptom of society’s demoralization.

chjrn
chjrn
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

I am in NC also and my lawyer and I discussed it. My response, “What am I going to get out of her? A pickup truck and a horse trailer?” BTW MY pick up truck and horse trailer is MUCH nicer than hers!

spiritwoman
spiritwoman
8 years ago
Reply to  chjrn

Also from NC, yep, I wish I could have outed her by naming and proving the adultery. I had the evidence, however, my now xh whore was a poor thing from Thailand. Not going to get much from nothing.

oaktree
oaktree
8 years ago
Reply to  Lastinline

Lastinline, I too am in North Carolina and have contemplated this option. Everything I read or hear about it says it’s too costly, the burden of proof is too high, blah, blah, blah. Do you know how much it would cost just to initially file the case?

Lastinline
Lastinline
8 years ago
Reply to  oaktree

Fortunately, I have the means to pursue something like that, so I haven’t yet discussed the cost of it. What I DO know is that I have so very much proof of it. We’re taking emails, texts, nude pics and an admission from my STBX and one of the women herself through texts.

Fun fact: Both alienation of affection and criminal conversation are civil torts, which means they can’t even discharge it in a bankruptcy.

From what I’ve read, you can sue for both, but you’ll only get a judgment amount for one, whichever is higher. Another thing to keep in mind is that criminal conversation = outright sex; alienation of affection doesn’t necessarily mean that. You could technically sue anyone for that one whether it was sexual or not. You just have to prove that they did something that caused your spouse to alienate from you. It could even be a meddling mother in law because it doesn’t require sex the way criminal conversation does.

Carol
Carol
8 years ago

I just tell smug people that I don’t have to do anything. I say it with a nice big smile on my face. So they know I’m really saying, Fuck you, asshole.”

Tessie
Tessie
8 years ago
Reply to  Carol

There is always the good old southern shorthand ….”Well, bless your heart.” …also code for “fuck you.”

Chumpion
Chumpion
8 years ago

Conniered, I don’t think there are easy answers here but I have zero patience for people who think you “need’ to forgive. I am not sure why the anger you are entitled to and they have little understanding of makes them uncomfortable.

I will add that not only are you entitled to this natural anger, the power and momentum of it is going to propel you forward out of this shit situation, so someone who wants to see that taken from you just wants you to curl up and die. It is unfathomable. “Jane” was wishing you the worst in the most careless way.

I will also add that going through this infidelity experience has made me realize forgiveness does not have to ever happen. Believe me, I would love it if it did, but the party who injures you must either ask for it or be worthy of it, otherwise it is synthetic. My ex may never properly ask for it or fully deserve it, and that’s fine. I have things to do.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpion

I dunno, X asked me for forgiveness after he supremely apologized to me in front of 4 attorneys at court. It sure sounded genuine. But, I’m sorry, not sorry, I still can’t forgive him and doubt I ever will. No skin off my nose.

Chris W.
Chris W.
8 years ago

Oh, and I forgot to add, you’re still pretty fresh and raw from the trauma of your divorce, so, you’re handling the interactions with your EH and his OW in a very mature, adult way. It’s great to be positive and upbeat with your son. He worries about you, too, while he’s with his dad. Your child WILL start to see their deficiencies, in time.

I just celebrated the 1 year anniversary of my divorce 2 weeks ago. Saddam has been living with the OW for 1.5 years. And in that time, she has grown haggard looking, old and beaten down. She’s 51, but could pass for 65, about 300 pounds now, with bags so high on her eyes they could pass for bookshelves!! I just laugh, as she’s reaping what she sowed and is enduring the effects of living with The Toxic Disordered.

chjrn
chjrn
8 years ago
Reply to  Chris W.

Saddam! I love it!

Drew
Drew
8 years ago
Reply to  Chris W.

I do believe our exes are finally with those they deserve. Crap people like themselves.

kb
kb
8 years ago
Reply to  Drew

I believe this is true in my case. My ex-husband is now engaged to his Schmoopie. He’s currently in non-compliance with the divorce decree, as he has failed to refinance the house in his own name. I suspect that this is because Schmoopie is very needy. He has to buy her stuff, take her on expensive vacations, and thus, instead of thinking that he needs to watch his credit so he can refinance the house, he’s overextended and tanked his credit so that he cannot do so.

For what it’s worth, he sees this situation as Obama’s fault. Really.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

One caviat-Where I live when we went through the quitclaim deed process, we also obtained a release of my name from the mortgage. Sometimes that does require a refinance but in our case it did not.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

KB-hope you don’t mind me asking but is the refinancing thing because he’ll need the money to buy you out or is to just get the mortgage in his name?

If it’s the latter he can simply file a quit claim deed to get the house and the mortgage in solely his name. You do it through the bank and there is a fee associated with it (ours was $500.00). It might be worth it and less aggravation!

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

Isn’t everything Obama’s fault? That’s what I hear constantly around here. Ugh.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago

Why do I see so many people tying themselves into knots trying to do what they think God wants them to do? I’m not religious at all, but in my mind, God wants me happy. God doesn’t want me to fuck other people over. God wants me to NOT do something that would make me sick to my stomach like, forgive a person who royally fucked me over.

Like the others have said here, there is nothing wrong with telling an idiot to can it. I heard the same crap and still occasionally do in regards to my X and his hole. I can remember my neighbor across the street, a religious dolt, offering up the following response when I told him my X didn’t live in my house anymore because he left to be with his mistress . . . “Oh but you forgive him right?” I said “Nope. Not really.” That’s the last time I spoke to that moron.

What I should have said was, “No Bob, I don’t forgive him, nor the whore he rode off with. And guess what, God don’t a fuck. I’m pretty sure about that. I’m a speck who loved another speck. I think there’s a lot more pressing things going on in the world for God to care about. And Bob, stop looking at my tits. God doesn’t dig that.”

You forgive who YOU want to forgive. You’re not on anyone else’s time-table to forgive, nor are you subject to what other people consider right and wrong in God’s eyes. I hate that shit. To them I say, you let ME worry about my relationship with God. You worry about yours.

P.S. She’s not being nice to your son because she’s a fantastic person. She’s playing the awesome step-mom role. Watch that unfurl after a few years.

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

One of the goofiest things someone at church said to me after my ex abandoned me right after my son got married and both kids had moved out was “if you’re lonely, just watch a little more TV.”

Isn’t that the funniest? I couldn’t even be mad at her because it was so moronic. Lose your family after 32 years? Just watch a little more TV!

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Such an odd but revealing comment. So many people want to bypass a lot of the hard work of living–recovering from loss and trauma, becoming a person who is happy and productive. So we eat and watch TV.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

Sorry LAJ – not here at C/N!!!

Pearshaped
Pearshaped
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

That’s just very….strange.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  Pearshaped

Um…isn’t the ‘churchy’ thing to say is…If you’re lonely, how about you come over for coffee and a piece of pie? Not even churchy. Just decent. Weird comment – I suppose she’d rather watch soaps than her own life.

With Brave Wings
With Brave Wings
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

YES! They aren’t nice to the kids because they are being motherly, it’s because they HAVE to be “wifely”. There is a huge difference.

Daisy
Daisy
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Rumblekitty, can we be BFFs? I loved your post!

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Daisy

Yes, every word of it.

Drew
Drew
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Yes, this! 😀

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago

Whore juice is non repentant, she feels entitled to everything she wants and needs no matter who it hurts. Asswipe showed interest and she connived him( him willing of course) And forced the issues by hurting me deliberately. The first time he choked her unconscious and she begged forgiveness for making him do it. Wtf! Second time she hurt me directly he beat her and she begged forgiveness again. Two sick fucks me thinks. He never laid a hand on me never even raised a hand in anger. In a short two months they knew each other he hadn’t moved out yet he injured her twice. Since then she tells him what he wants to hear, she feels badly about the breakup, she’s so sorry for me, yada, yada, lip service. I will never forgive either one of them ever, they are not sorry who they hurt they don’t care. I don’t forgive anyone who sets out to deliberately fuck me over and then says sorry, not sorry! I don’t have too and I won’t. All most of them want by forgiveness is to feel better about themselves and ease their guilt. She apologized to my kids for her behavior me nothing. I wouldn’t listen to her anyway. Nice kind people do not fuck other peoples spouses. End of sentence. Period. Morally bankrupt pieces of shit people do. My kids told her to stick it, they don’t want to hear her lowlife immoral bs. They only see them occasionally to see their dad and they are getting sick of his father of the year behavior. Mostly he ignores them especially the girl. It is not my job to make either one better feel. No business of mine anymore. And why would I forgive some whore who willingly slept with a married man and pushed and pushed to help destroy our marriage. Not a bad person oh yes she is! Forgive my ass, I’m working on forgiving myself. Fuck them, I wish them the worst. She’s had three husbands so far who’ve cheated on her and left her wait til Asswipe does it to her he’s cheating on her now.

With Brave Wings
With Brave Wings
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

BRAVO!!!!

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago

Wow, kar marie – that’s strange how he’s turned on her physically and never harmed you once. They’re not on drugs or something? And, she apologizes?? Bizarre!

And, curious how you know all this….

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  SheChump

They are both into recreational drugs for sex and really heavy bondage sex. I don’t mind a little kinky but beatings, ah no. He has spit stuff out and told my daughter stuff. I used it for ammunition to help my head and heart walk farther away. These assholes are in their 50s acting like stupid teenagers. Recreational drugs? Seriously? My kid told him you put your hands on mom she’d kill hm. Told her dad you beat up that whore I don’t care. Almost killed the bitch choking her and she begs for forgiveness! Some stuff I needed to know to walk the other way. He has cheated on her many times and he will continue to do so. I will be so glad when I’m hours away from this madness. Whore juice is sicker in the head than he is.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

Thanks for your input, kar marie. Sweet Jesus. He’s in his 50’s, can finally dominate a woman completely and into recreational drugs? Haven’t we all moved on and gotten mature? Beating involved in kinky sex reminds me of why I only read 3 pages of 50 Shades. Sick. and, it can get sicker. Just like porn. They crave more. More beatings? Shit if I know. I didn’t explore it and don’t care to.
But, with drugs and bdsm that is violent, I sure hope no kids are over there.

I mean…. :choking: somebody is fun sex?

Fuck it.

Again, how do you know these details. I’m very curious.

Signed – thought I was pretty sleuthy-

🙂

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  SheChump

The choking part was anger for ow hurting me me and the first servere beating also anger for hurting me. Those were not done for sex. But the two of them are both sick, into the sick sick sex. The recreational drugs enhance the sex cause of his ed. He blurted some things out and he told one of my kids. That’s how I know. And he’s bad with the computer and left things opens. Pictures of many woman he’s had sick sex with and about thirty or so more bondage and sex hook up sites he’s on and does not use condoms. I wish I didn’t know he was capable of these things but I’m glad I do. This is not the guy I married or so I thought but definitely who he truly is and I had no clue. Thank the universe I’m divorced and will move soon and never have to see this demented creature again.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  SheChump

I’m really sorry, just re-reading back on your post and this is stuff YOUR daughter has been told. WTF?? Why is she exposed to any of this? Pallease, get her out of that situation. Far TMI for any kid, no matter what her age.

Butterfly Queen
Butterfly Queen
8 years ago

Forgiveness is what we do for ourselves. I doubt you or most chumps will ever get an apology. D-day for me is going on 3 yrs and OW is still acting smug and high and mighty. Some days I forgive her and douche bag cheater. Other days I don’t. But I won’t ever forgive them because they deserve it, I’ll do it for my own peace of mind and when I’m ready. Forgiveness cannot be rushed. It must be sincere and from a place of healing. People who preach auto forgiveness have never been utterly betrayed. For the rest of us we know we do it for us and our children and only when ready. It’s also a daily choice. Don’t feel bad if you need to be angry longer, it’s your right.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago

Yup, I would feel even more oppressed by X than I already do if I were to forgive him. I feel morally superior to him, and that suits me just fine.

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I have to say when I was explaining to my husband that trying to break up another man’s family and interfere with his relationship with his children was just plain wrong — not matter how he felt about me — that I felt morally superior. At the time my husband looked like he wanted to kill me. It was so unnerving. I’d always loved his eyes, but there was evil in them that day. I’ll never forget it.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Those Black Eyes. I’ll never ever forget them.

(which went from beautiful blue)

KB22
KB22
8 years ago

I’m not a big believer in forgiveness, people that treat you badly are just not worthy of forgiveness. The majority of them would not give a rat’s behind whether you forgive or not, some would just shrug and say, see I’m not a bad person, he/she forgave me and use it to benefit their nice guy facade. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I find persons that forgive or make nice with their cheaters or abusers, rather desperate and annoying. So many say that well, children are involved, blah, blah blah. I’m all for being civil and polite in a situation where you HAVE to be in their company or children are involved but making nice is not setting a good example for your kids and the cheater or abuser just thinks (correctly in some cases) that you just want them back and are still playing the pick me dance. I am a big believer in moving on with your life and become totally apathetic to the perpetrators and their actions. I think sometimes that can be confused with forgiveness.

violet
violet
8 years ago

Not forgiving OW/X has had zero impact on my peace of mind, nor do I view it necessary for my healing. If it is something you view as necessary, by all means pursue it. As for me, it has no importance to my well being or that of my kids, who are doing just fine.

Marked711
Marked711
8 years ago

I tell people “They’re still alive. I consider them forgiven! “

tryinghard
tryinghard
8 years ago
Reply to  Marked711

Marked711—LOL I love that answer. I’m going to book mark that in my little brain!

Daisy
Daisy
8 years ago

I think you did a fantastic job Conniered. I probably would have told her in excruciating detail exactly what it was I would be forgiving. I’m pretty sure that would have shut her right down. She’d be too busy trying to forgive me for making her ears bleed. 😀

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  Daisy

I would have told her in no way was my forgiving anyone for that kind of behavior any of her fucking business and she can go fuck herself and you are not my fucking friend any longer And obviously you must be a cheater yourself or you would not say such a thing. Stupid bitch!

Chumpita
Chumpita
8 years ago

“The only sort of person who squirms around chumps and demands chumps unilaterally forgive cheaters, are cheaters themselves.”

This is so true! I always thought it strange when my cheater-ass would say something like “you shouldn´t judge other people´s marriages like that…you never know what reasons they had” when I was upset about two male colleagues of his cheating on their wives whom I knew because we all had babies of the same age and met once a week for a baby exercise group. At that time, I was very angry at those idiots but relieved that my then husband was not also cheating on me….(or so I thought). Now I understand perfectly why he excused them and thought that I should too. He even gave me the reasons : one of the women was “frigid” and the other had a “bad temperament.” according to his first hand information….

Of course, a few years later when I was able to discuss this with the ex-wives, the “frigid” one said: “how attractive do you find an alcoholic husband who you have to rescue from a bar when you are pregnant or with a baby?” and the “bad temperament” told me that she was always suspecting her husband was on to something when he would come back home in the am with the excuse of study-groups with colleagues while she was home alone struggling with a new baby who was often sick!

Forgive these assholes? No way!

Roberta
Roberta
8 years ago

In my case, no one ever asked for forgiveness for poaching my husband or screwing a low life behind my back! So I don’t feel obligated to offer forgiveness! I’m with Divorce Minister, I always thought that repentance should come first! These fools really believe they have done nothing wrong so what’s to forgive? To Hell with them!

spiritwoman
spiritwoman
8 years ago
Reply to  Roberta

My xh is not only unrepentant, but as he graciously informed me that God approved what he was doing as he was only correcting the biggest mistake of his life. He also told me that God has already forgiven him and that it was meant to be because she is his soulmate.

My now xh while still living together said he couldn’t wait required one year separation for divorce because he had to marry her now. Delusional fucks thought the world was ending on the Mayan Dec.21 date and he wanted to fly over to Thailand and die with her.

The divorce has been over 1 1/2 yrs now, he still hasn’t married his soul mate, lol Recently a friend informed me that the whore is heartbroken because he told her he is still interested in other women. The pitiful whore says that will all just have to stop when they get married.

My friend casually reminded her it didn’t stop when he was married before, and she since she knows, what makes her think he would stop for her? hahaha

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  spiritwoman

He’s full of shit, spiritwoman, but you already knew that!

kimmy
kimmy
8 years ago

I don’t put much value in forgiveness. Acceptance. I accept what my ex and his whore did. They made choices that changed my life and that of my children. I accept that because of their poor choices my life has a new path. And really……..I thank them for that. They caused pain to my children and forever changed how my girls view the world. Because of this, I was fortunate enough to have deep conversations with my young adult girls and talk about how they should expect to be treated by others! My relationship with my daughters is better than ever! They consider me strong, smart and loving! Their father and whore…….NOT SO MUCH!

Forgiveness is overrated. And anyone who tries to tell me how to heal can suck it! I’ve done pretty good on my own. I am ALMOST to Tuesday!

tryinghard
tryinghard
8 years ago

First of all, who is she to assume you haven’t forgiven her? AND who is she to tell you how to run your conscience? AND thirdly, No you do not NEED to forgive her. Forgiveness is wayyyy overrated IMHO. I’ve earnestly prayed and looked for my ability to forgive to NO avail. So I quit. Just like trying to firm up my triceps, nothing worked 🙂

I think the best answer would have been to laugh in her face and change the subject to something like, Hey How About those Chicago Cubs???!!! Or better yet simply staring her in the eye for a protracted second as if to say, without really verbalizing it, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!

Everyone’s an expert on other people’s psyche and she, with her unSOLICITED advice, was invalidating your pain. It makes people feel better about themselves. And yes maybe she’s having an affair too and just feels guilty or more probably entitled.

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  tryinghard

This is good. Who says that C hasn’t forgiven. Every person is different and will “forgive” differently. No where that I can remember in the Bible does it say “forgive and forget.”

I read this somewhere and copied it cause it has helped me. “Forgiveness involves not holding a sin against a person any longer, but forgiveness is different from trust. It is wise to take precautions, and sometimes the dynamics of a relationship will have to change. Being cautious doesn’t mean we haven’t forgiven. It simply means we are not God and we cannot see that person’s heart.”

IanDubito
IanDubito
8 years ago

May I play devil’s advocate here?

I am a staunch atheist. All this *god* talk makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a spork. Nevertheless, forgiveness transcends religion, and so it is important to discuss it.

Let’s assume, arguendo, that cheater and OW/OM have a “come-to-Jesus/Allah/Yahweh/Krishna/Buddha/XYZ moment.” They subsequently honestly repent, and they ask for forgiveness. They ask their god, your god, your children, your family, their family, and you for forgiveness.

What then?

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

Then you look to see if there is restitution included with their asking for forgiveness. If their is no action toward restitution there is no real remorse. Actions and words go hand in hand. Speaking from your teeth out means shit without restitution.

Marezy doats
Marezy doats
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

If my cheater came to me with a truly remorseful apology, acknowledging that he had injured me, I would forgive him. What I know though is that he is so self-absorbed any apology would be about him – what he doesn’t have anymore now that I’m gone, how the new woman didn’t treat him right, she doesn’t help him , his life is shitty, so he is sorry. Yes, sorry for himself just like he has always been. To get a real true repentance from my ex would require a personality transplant so extreme that it would *have* to be God’s work. And that honestly would make me very happy to know that shitty people can turn into real humans. I would love to forgive him under those conditions. But I am not holding my breath.

Arlo
Arlo
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

Does anybody anywhere know of an actual, proven, demonstrably remorseful, repentant, reformed cheater? A real live unicorn? Do they exist? I’m really asking…

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Arlo

Given that cheating involves deceit and lying, a ‘reformed cheater’ is pretty much an oxymoron.
I think the only time that it would work is if a person was an unknowing OM/OW because the cheater lied to that person saying they were single (I dealt with this shit once before in my life, where someone claimed they were single, when it turns out they were not. Fortunately, it was only a matter of weeks before I found out, and his girlfriend found out as well. Turfed the fucker as soon as I found out)

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Arlo

One person on this site (that I know of) did get a real apology and admission that it was his fault from the cheater (that person themselves can relate the tale). ONE. Out of how many thousand of us?

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

My ex has evaporated from my life, have no idea what he’s doing and don’t want to know. I used to daydream about being on my deathbed and him coming to tell me he was sorry, but I don’t think it’ll ever happen. He has his reasons to justify what he did and he believes them (my fault). I don’t believe he’s introspective enough to see what he did and apologize for it.

Once I pointed out that I’d apologized and apologized to him for all the shortcomings he felt I had, but he’d never apologized to me. He yelled “I did too!” and that was the end of the discussion. It was a lie said so emphatically there was no more discussion. That’s the way discussions typically went between us.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

My children have strict orders that he is not allowed to see me if I’m dying. He will not be allowed to be at my funeral. It will be about image control.

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

I hope that my life will not end with my abuser in sight! I want to die surrounded by those who truly care, not the ones who are acting loving for their own benefit.

300lbsLighter
300lbsLighter
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

Ian, I guess in that situation, if there were years of behaviour indicating a genuine and permanent change, I might well say “I forgive you”.

But to be honest, I don’t really understand what people mean by forgiveness. What more does it connote than acceptance, not confronting the person, and thinking about them as little as possible? Am I supposed to feel a warm rush of liking when I encounter them? Or view their past actions as not having been heinous? Or want to reconcile? Because none of those things are under my conscious control, and frankly, I don’t think they’re possible within the current space/time continuum.

Is forgiveness just saying the words and trying not to be rude in future? Because that’s possible. Viewing the ex as a decent human being, however, is like asking me to not notice that a vase has been smashed and glued back together. It may be beautiful, but I can’t UNKNOW the damage.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

Ian–it’s YOUR choice to forgive and under what circumstances. (Just tellin’ ya though–you ain’t NEVER going to get a heartfelt apology & remorse from your cheater.)

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Nope never gonna get a heartfelt apology, never gonna happen because cheaters feel entitled to what they want and us sorry chumps were just in their way. Most likely the pos they left us for will eventually get in the way too.

SheChump
SheChump
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

Oh – but mine was plenty remorseful and asking forgiveness during the settlement of Spousal Support. The mediator was ~good~. And, it got me to settle otherwise, we would have gone to a judge – I didn’t want to take my chances because the settlement was ‘fair’.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  SheChump

Impression management, and fear of consequences, I suspect (not real remorse by cheater).

HopeAndGloria
HopeAndGloria
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

Fair question.

For me, repentance isn’t just a bunch of words said in the right order or incantations repeated the requisite number of times. That never achieves anything at all except putting the offender in a good place where they feel entitled and ready to have the gall to ask for ANYTHING from the person they wronged, particularly forgiveness.

When words have caused damage, then words are good enough to use in repentance. But when actions have done the damage, words are worthless. They don’t count. Least of all regarding affairs, which have solid foundations sunk deep in 20 metric tonnes of deceptive words generated for the express purpose of fucking over spouses/partners. There aren’t enough words in any language to fill the chasm created by the wrongdoing. That’s why they call it wrongDOING. When you’ve been wronged by a burglary, the damage has been caused by a set of actions. The offender doesn’t get off by saying sorry. The repentant actions that un-do the damage include recompense for you and jail time for the offender. When you’ve been wronged by an affair, are there any repentant actions that could atone for it? Not sure. Just not sure.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  HopeAndGloria

HopeandGloria, this is brilliant. You’ve put your finger on why “apologies” don’t work. They can’t make the wounded person whole. In your burglary example, the burglar can pay back his victim. But if he stole a treasured family heirloom and sold it, all the money in the world can’t fix it. And of course, the victim must grapple with the feelings of violation as well as the material loss or damage.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  IanDubito

It’s not enough to simply repent. Jesus said, “God AND SIN NO MORE”. Action is required for true repentance.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Ian

I would give both of them a big fuck you. The only thing I accept is the fact they are both selfish assholes. Who wants a group of selfish assholes lining up at your door?

Boundaries are the road blocks to firgiveness. Here’s my line Jane. You crossed it done. I chose not to associate with selfish assholes. Gone. It’s that simple. I’ve raised my bar high. No assholes allowed

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I have a friend who’s ex ran off with his 30 year old secretary and destroyed their family. For years she thought hearing him say he was sorry would help her heal. Sure enough, one day he shows up on her door and tells her he’s sorry and she didn’t deserve what he did to her. He said he was trying to be a better person in his “new life.” Within a couple of days the “apology” wore off as she considered that he was probably just saying those things because he wanted something. She didn’t trust that it was sincere. That helped me let go of longing for an apology from my ex.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Yeah–a cheater with an apology on his lips is just snuffling around for kibbles.

Silarn
Silarn
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

In my view, if they are worthy of forgiveness (meaning truly repentant), they will respect whatever reasonable request you have.

If you’re truly sorry about what you’ve done, then fine, I might be able to forgive you. But that doesn’t mean I want you in my life or that I owe you my time.

Make any unwanted demands on my time, and you’ll be proving that you aren’t actually sorry. Them’s the brakes.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I like CL’s line, “I didn’t kill you. Consider yourself forgiven.”

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

That is probably my favourite CL quote:-)

LilyBart
LilyBart
8 years ago

I struggled with the forgiveness issue for a while, though I’m not religious, and none of my friends tried to insist that I forgive my ex. If anything, my friends had more hatred for him than I did. (I love my friends).

In the years after D-Day, when I was still suffering and overwhelmed with righteous anger and hurt, I feared that those feelings would always be there. I worried that I would always be this angry, miserable person that I did not like. Maybe I needed to forgive them and move forward, or else remain stuck in this mad state for the rest of my days.

They didn’t deserve my forgiveness, and I didn’t ever bother to give it. I just moved on with my life, went no contact, and put my energy into positive things like writing and meeting new people. Time passed, and the pain grew more distant.

I don’t hate my ex or the OW. I don’t forgive them, either. I have no strong feelings about them one way or the other, except maybe a distant tinge of disgust. Meh is the state of grace that I was looking for, and it didn’t require me to forgive anyone but myself.

300lbsLighter
300lbsLighter
8 years ago
Reply to  LilyBart

Hooray! It’s good to read this. I’m sick of being angry. I do believe that getting away from STBX will allow me the necessary distance to grow past the anger, in due time. I’m happy it worked that way for you.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  300lbsLighter

300lbslighter-Getting away and going full no contact (for those of us lucky enough to either have adult children or didn’t breed with a fuckwit) or going as much no contact as humanly possible when raising minor children also helps a great deal!

I am in the first lucky group: Adult Children. I have not spoken to the ex in 2 years, have not texted him in two years and our last email exchange took place close to a year ago-all business related to either the divorce settlement or our kids. You will get past the anger I promise you!

I too am at the point where I don’t have strong feelings about the ex or his AP turned wife. I’m keeping my eye towards the future and I can almost see Meh. I don’t think I’m there quite yet but I’m closer than ever. You will be too.

Uniquelyme
Uniquelyme
8 years ago
Reply to  cheaterssuck

300lbslighter, Like cheaterssuck said, you will get there even when you cannot imagine you it right now. No contact works incredibly well. With no contact, you will see your STBX exactly as he is.

CS, off topic, we’re having a meet-up this Friday. Hope to see you there.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  Uniquelyme

I totally missed there. Is it on the boards?

Anita
Anita
8 years ago

Well, Ian, I only control myself so I can’t answer for God, other people, etc. They are free to do whatever they want. But I don’t feel the need to forgive that person, under any circumstances. I’m not in charge of their salvation, only mine and my forgiveness has no impact on that.

I’ll answer to God for my unforgiveness at the time necessary, if and when it comes. It is still not as bad as lying and committing adultery, both of which have their own commandment.

Silarn
Silarn
8 years ago

In my views, offering forgiveness when the recipient of the forgiveness is not remorseful and/or has not changed their ways essentially means you have decided to condone what they have done. In some cases, this might be okay. For some things, this would be a crazy thing to do. “You murdered my child and say you would do it again; at first I hated you, but after thinking about it I’m okay with it now and forgive you.” This is a bit different from, “You stole an apple from me, but you are starving and in light of this I forgive you, so long as you don’t do it again.”

Cheating falls far closer to the first category. To forgive a cheater that is not remorseful, you have to condone and rationalize the original act. There’s no realistic rationalization beyond, “I’m an entitled asshole with no willpower to keep my base urges in check, even at a potential loss to my future well-being and those I profess to love.”

True remorse can at times be hard to suss out, but when it is real, there’s an acceptance of wrongdoing. At this point, forgiving the perpetrator changes to an acceptance of their remorse. They know they did wrong, and they may never be able to forgive that debt, but they’re doing what they can and are guilty about their actions. So you forgive the debt for them, acknowledging their efforts to make amends.

Thus, if someone tells you to forgive an unrepentant cheater, ask them if they’re okay with you cheating with their spouse. Because they’re asking you forgive the act of cheating, not the cheater.

ChumpionoftheWorld
ChumpionoftheWorld
8 years ago
Reply to  Silarn

>> Because they’re asking you forgive the act of cheating, not the cheater.
Yes, what you said.

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
8 years ago

As far as I’m concerned, the only responsibility I had to ANYONE after my ex blew apart our lives and marriage was to my son. It was also my responsibility to restore my life and move on. I took care of both of those responsibilities to the best of my abilities. I never had any responsibility to the OW for forgiveness or anything else, and any responsibilities I once had towards my ex ended the moment the judge signed the divorce papers.

I don’t believe in forgiveness towards the unrepentant. I DO believe in shrugging that shit off, however, and ceasing to waste time and energy in thinking about a cheater from my past. Forgiveness requires the party who did the injuring to acknowledge that injury and ASK to be forgiven, then no longer engage in the injuring behavior. Even God requires this, so why should a mere mortal be held to a lesser standard?

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
8 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

No, no, I meant a mere mortal should not be held to a HIGHER standard than God Himself. Wish there was an edit button on Wordpress.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago

I’m still reading all your comments but I wanted to chime in before I have to get back to work.

NO ONE has asked me to forgive them. Duh.

And funny, CL, Jane has not been a saint. I don’t know own the details but I do believe she has cheated so you really nailed that one!! It never occurred to me that her own guilt guided her smug comment. And it was delivered that way.

One thing g that I have been grappling with lately in all aspects of my life is the need to hear apologies from people when they hurt me. I mean, my husband betrayed me. I didn’t even get acknowledgment of his wrongdoing. Disordered dude I dated for 4 months up until early broke up with me saying he didn’t like mybson and questioned my parenting skills as his mother. No apology for clearly stabbing me in the heart with his words. Fighting with my disordered mom, never an apology. Ever. I’m sick and tired of it. And I rebuke these people. Including Jane. And other 2 points CL for reading between the lines because Hell Nof she hadn’t apologized for her insensitivity. I am not holding my breath. However, she has shown her true colors and it’s putting my sister in the position of feeling the need to confront her. She is her BFF. Or at least used to be.

Apologies are so much moresearch than admitting wrongdoing. It says “I care about you”, “I value you and my relationship with you”, ” I want things between us to be right”. It’s being vulnerable. Open ingredients your heart and letting a person see inside. Anyone who can’t do that is no longer welcome in my life. Period.

Thanks for all the support y’all. Chump Nation rocks!!!

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

Why am I not surprised shes a former cheater.
And I agree with nomar – its a sense of entitlement, not guilt.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

“It never occurred to me that her own guilt guided her smug comment.”

Connieried, I doubt she feels much guild. Replace “guilt” with “sense of entitlement” and you’re probably closer to the mark. She wants you to treat cheating as a venial sin so that she can be assured that her own cheating is “no big deal.” I’d guess she feels entitled to as much.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

The auto-correct on my post is just absurd. Never again will I post from my phone. Ugh.

ChumpionoftheWorld
ChumpionoftheWorld
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

conniered, very interesting that this Jane has a past like that. One couple my ex and I had been very close to decided to be very neutral about the infidelity and get uncomfortable when I express my (sanely stated) anger. I have since discovered the husband had cheated at one point.

Like many of you, I have found my real friends after this incident.

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

The fact that a person doesn’t apologize or request forgiveness or try to make amends for their behavior tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about them. And it’s on them, not me.

Survivor
Survivor
8 years ago

My ex went to his grave without my forgiveness, and I’m okay with that. He wasted too many years of my life. He cheated on me, lied to me, and stole from me. He harassed me and my employers until I lost my job. He broke into my home to take what he didn’t get in the divorce. He caused lifelong injuries to my cat. And he did it all without remorse. For me, forgiving that kind of shittiness would feel too much like agreeing that he was entitled to behave as atrociously as he did. Forgiveness is optional. Accountability is not.

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  Survivor

Just be glad he died, Survivor, and you didn’t.

Survivor
Survivor
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

I am glad every day.

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  Survivor

I totally understand. Most people don’t, but I have a few dead exes myself. Thank God it was them, not me.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

How do we increase the number?

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Tempest, it really helps if they are alcoholics or drug addicts, especially when they are around 50 or older, at least that’s my experience. Although I have a really creepy ex who is almost 60, and still kicking. Probably still lying and whoring, too.

Survivor
Survivor
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

I really thought mine was just in midlife crisis. No, it had been a pattern for years I had not yet discovered while building a career and helping him build his. When I was no longer there to support his image, and the new replacement appliance didn’t know the rules, his life fell apart quickly. He died a slow and horrible death, at his own hand. We’re talking about a person who was secretly anorexic, addicted to tanning, and alcohol and cocaine (even when it went out of fashion), and needed constant adoration. At some point the George Hamilton style tanning scored him skin cancer and the treatment scored him a side effect that meant he couldn’t walk. And the prescription opiate addiction lost him his prestigious positions at two universities and his spot at the National Academy of Sciences and, and, and. But the whore student came before the fallout and left before most of it. But not before the amazing defamation suit by her former boyfriend/visiting professor who lost his job because my ex sent a heat seeking email to everyone on every list accusing the competition of being so many bad things.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

They already pushed the self destruct button. It’s a matter of time.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago

conniered,

First of all, good for you for going out to dinner, for being able to be what you call the “fifth wheel,” for having the grace and the courage to be single again when so many of your/our peers are paired up. I used to feel so conspicuous when I was out without a “plus one” or a friend, but I don’t want to take just anybody to weddings and family events. So I go alone, as my beloved favorite aunt did. That great lady was twice widowed but traveled the world and supported herself and others until the day she died at 92. She was tough, funny and beautiful to her last day. We are worthy. Period. We don’t need to line up in pairs as if marching to the Ark. I go alone to movies, ball games, restaurants, the gym, yoga, work functions, family celebrations, etc. At this moment, I am seeing a nice man, but I don’t need him as an escort or an accessory, the human equivalent of a nice purse or diamond earrings. So you rock, conniered.

Your letter brought Brene Brown’s book “Daring Greatly” to mind. Now, I like a lot of what Brown has to say in her most well-known books, although she so does NOT get it about narcissists. But I digress. Brown quotes Teddy Roosevelt on what it means to “dare greatly”: “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;who strives valiantly;who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming;but who does actually strive to do the deeds;who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Being a recovering chump is a daily exercise in daring greatly, to getting “in the arena” and going after our dreams, to getting our hands dirty and making mistakes (etc.) But “[it] is not the critic who counts.” It’s the person in the arena. Brown completes this idea by talking about from whom she is willing to accept feedback: ““I only accept and pay attention to feedback from people who are also in the arena. If you’re occasionally getting your butt kicked as you respond, and if you’re also figuring out how to stay open to feedback without getting pummeled by insults, I’m more likely to pay attention to your thought about my work. If, on the other hand, you’re not helping, contributing, or wrestling with your own gremlins, I’m not at all interested in your commentary.” The Chumps here have splendid idea about how to respond to such as Jane, but here’s another: “Unless you are wrestling with the new realities my son and I face, I am not interested in your feedback. But let me set you straight on forgiveness; it doesn’t apply to people too morally bankrupt to know they’ve wronged another person.”

Being chumped gives us brand new insight into people we thought were friends. At times, peoples’ utter lack of empathy leaves me breathless. But if we make ourselves vulnerable enough to share the pain and struggle in our lives, and the response is some form of judgment (because what she said was judging you for not forgiving the OW), then we know to never, ever trust that person with our pain or our struggle. If that dinner was a test, you passed, your sister and bro-in-law passed and Jane not only failed the test but the course. I still remember a very close friend of mine saying (3 months after DDay, “get over it, already.” I still see her once in a while. She’s fun to see a movie with. But that’s it.

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

LAJ, you are awesome!!! I’m going to strive to be that independent and strong!!!!!

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

“Unless you are wrestling with the new realities my son and I face, I am not interested in your feedback. But let me set you straight on forgiveness; it doesn’t apply to people too morally bankrupt to know they’ve wronged another person.”

This is brilliant, LaJ!

yo
yo
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

Excellent response. I would probably have to write it down on a cheat sheet and peek at it when dealing with forgiveness hypocrites.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

I want to hug you so hard right now LovedaJackass. I understand what you are saying and I am taking it to heart.

Janes was judging me wasn’t she?

If I am not willing to be the 5th wheel from time to time I miss out and I don’t want to miss out! I am single! Of my own choosing. And I am at peace with it.

I did grow closer to my sister and bro-in-law after this incident. They had righteous indignation FOR me. That’s love. When they are just mere observers of my pain and anger and then the dusting myself off again, they are there for me. Fighting next to me. Hoping that I win at life. Yep. They are keepers and I love them

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

conniered, she was indeed judging you. One big thing that the cheater experience taught me was to NEVER tell other people what they “ought” to do. It’s not helpful. When people want my input, they’ll ask. 🙂

lostntx
lostntx
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

It’s awesome that you have someone like that for you. It makes getting through all this s*** a little easier.

kaycan
kaycan
8 years ago

“(Consequently, Chump Lady doesn’t get invited to too many dinner parties.)”

Ha ha! Chump Lady is officially invited to ALL of my dinner parties! (Tracy — and all of CN — is, too.)

I’m actually sort of waiting for this forgiveness bullshit to come up in the near future, too. Asshat is now a born-again Catholic, thanks to the loving guidance of SkankWhore. (Eye roll.)

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  kaycan

Oh goodness… if these born again “catholics” ( little c, cause they don’t get Catholicism at all) are actually trying to be Catholic then they should have asked for forgiveness, made restitution to you, yesterday, not the near future. There really is not anything worse in religion, than “people” that don’t understand what their religion consists of. Gives us Catholics a bad name

creativerational
creativerational
8 years ago
Reply to  kaycan

He’s really in it for her and she’s in if for the padded knee rests and unending do-overs.

Virago
Virago
8 years ago

conniered, your response was excellent, IMO, and you owe no apology for your authentically, justified position. We say “I’m sorry” too much.

Jane has been triggered, I suspect, otherwise I see no reason for her unsolicited advice. Cheaters insist on making the point that they have done nothing wrong, and I suspect she has something on her books that troubles her, either consciously or non-consciously.

The insistence, by these unusual ones, that a suffering person behave the way they insist, is forced co-dependence. It is ‘make nice so I don’t feel uncomfortable’. My promise to myself is to address it directly, unapologetically, as a teaching about the path of suffering. THIS IS GRIEF. Do not advise me how to grieve.

As I checked in at a group the other day, I bragged that I was 117 days NC. I was so proud. And this white-haired woman said, “You don’t need that anymore. Stop counting.” Good thing I did not reply to her!!!!!!! But I will speak to her privately and request that she not tell me how I ought to experience my grief, as I have not advised or criticized her.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Virago

Virago, you are so right that telling the suffering how to behave and what to feel is “forced codependence.” I have never heard of that term, but it’s a dandy. I love the idea about responding to such things as teaching moments. We have, in American culture at least, largely forgotten how to grieve and we learn at our peril the price of avoiding that grief. Great, great post.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago

“To err is human; to forgive, supine.”
–S.J. Perelman

Koru
Koru
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

🙂

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

LOL – Great quote Tempest 😀

Let go
Let go
8 years ago

I know several people who were blindsided this way. The general consensus is “Fuck you”. The ball is then in their court.

SirChumpedAlot
SirChumpedAlot
8 years ago

Just wanted to chime in…I just love this type of a response, “do you know this from experience?” A response like that or responses like that usually come from someone towards Meh.

Conniered, get back to and stay in Meh. You will find as time goes by and when you run into more Jane’s/John’s out there, (and you will) I am certain that you will also have witty responses like that. You will make your allies at the table high-five you at the same time shutting up Jane’s pie-hole!

CharityFroggenhall
CharityFroggenhall
8 years ago

Your dad is awesome.

David
David
8 years ago

I agree with everyone. But I must add that this is a good example of how people who have not experienced the uniquely excruciating and unique form of the pain of infidelity simply Do Not Get It. My friends and family mean well (though none have exhorted me to “forgive”) but I realize again and again that until and unless you have lived through this, you will remain blissfully ignorant. So I have stopped complaining to them and save it for my therapist. “Forgive them” in my case manifests as nicely-worded variations of “get over it.” And I sure am working toward that, but no: the damage is so very deep and the pain so very profound. As far as “forgiveness”? Fuck that. I want them to suffer and suffer badly. I say that in the most Christlike way possible.

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago
Reply to  David

Heck, I watched my own sister go through it but didn’t really understand until it happened to me! That’s why I can relate to people saying dumb, unhelpful things. I remember back when I was clueless. I called and apologized to my sister and told her I had no idea of the depth of pain she was in when it happened to her.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  David

That reminded me of when I used to pray every night and morning that he would die. That was not very Christian like. Now I pray he lives a long suffering shit life of misery his actions and selfishness brought him through dishonest living. He earned it.

Scott
Scott
8 years ago

Seriously, this is my favorite subject in the arena of cheaterdom and recovery as a betrayed spouse. There is nothing wrong with growing bored of the subject and simply moving on. Forgiveness is NOT a gift we give to ourselves, it’s a gift we give to the guilty. This modern forgiveness tripe is just that, tripe. There’s no responsibility, there’s no recompense, there’s no amends, there’s simply no justification. Most people who demand forgiveness for a third party don’t understand what they are asking or are simply cut from the same clothe as the cheater.

My ex is not a good person. She’s not decent, she’s not ethical, and she uses people to extremes. I’m supposed to give that person an opening to walk around telling people we are “okay” with each other, when she simply doesn’t care that her actions were hurtful and devastating, um…NO.

If she were at some point clearly and honestly repentant, and could enumerate all her faults and darkness she laid bare on me and her children and family members, without a shred of blame or finger pointing, I would think about it for 5 or 6 years and perhaps forgive. But I have no trust, no faith, no indication that the person she is now is a person worthy of the gift of my forgiveness.

Have I moved on? You bet!!! And I’m happy, and my life is going well, and getting better. It’s not perfect, but it’s improving, 2+ years after a divorce. But yet there are even now people who insist the only way my life will be perfect is if I blubber and hug and forgive my witch ex wife. That’s just silly.

I’ve come to my own peace and solitude. I had a friend once tell me “you forgive the safe people and those who aren’t safe you just accept the fact that you got out of there alive. But to tell them you forgive them will only further embolden them to act the way they did to begin with.” That’s the TRUTH about this forgive at all costs mentality, there’s zero responsibility for the offender, and there’s only you admitting you’re a doormat and they can continue to act irresponsibly. That’s what the Jane’s of the world want. To continue to see good people beat down by bad people because it makes JANE happy, NOT you.

I said above you should walk away from Jane. There are standards we should hold for ourselves. Being cheated on forces you to reevaluate your boundaries. One of my boundaries is the control for my world is mine and mine alone. People who give unsolicited advice aren’t welcomed where I live. I don’t like the know it all’s and I won’t accept their opinion when I didn’t ask for it. And guess what? I don’t need correcting. I’m an adult, and I’m getting way too old to waste my time on ignorance. Let Jane be ignorant. You don’t need that complication in your life.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Scott

“That’s the TRUTH about this forgive at all costs mentality, there’s zero responsibility for the offender, and there’s only you admitting you’re a doormat and they can continue to act irresponsibly. That’s what the Jane’s of the world want. To continue to see good people beat down by bad people because it makes JANE happy, NOT you.”

Well said, Scott. The ‘age of entitlement’ is part and parcel of this, too. Its all about arseholes getting their way at all costs.

lostntx
lostntx
8 years ago
Reply to  Scott

Great response! I have forgiven myself for not forgiving her. How’s that? I really never plan to speak to her or see her again except at events that it can’t be avoided. Kids weddings, grandchild’s birth, etc And even then us speaking is not going to happen. . My goal is to reach the point I just don’t give a sh** about her or anything to do with her. Working on getting there and CL is a big reason i’ve made so much progress in so little time.