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Dear Chump Lady, My insecurity made him cheat?

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mademedoitDear Chump Lady,

My ex-husband had a old flame from high school that he had a emotional relationship with. Having the old flame hovering in the background always made me uncomfortable.

My ex always told me I was being insecure. Fast foward ten years, my then husband starts a emotional affair with her, lies to me about needing to “find himself,” sleeps with her, we are now divorced and he is now living with her.

My ex’s story is now: “He would never have had feelings for the old flame if I had not been so insecure.”

So my fear that he still had feelings for her, made him want to fuck her and destroyed our marriage?

It’s my ex telling me that I made him want to bonk her, and before that they were “completely platonic.” (Even though he had been in love with her and slept with her before we met) — that really makes me crazy!

Can you please help me clear some of the mindfuckery and help me understand what the hell just happend to my life?

Thank you.

Lacking Nuts

Dear Nuts,

Well apparently you were insecure for good reason. She was a threat to your marriage and he’s a cheater.

You may be surprised to learn that this bit of mindfuckery (your insecurity drove me to it) is not original. This one comes up a lot. And it’s patently moronic, so no wonder it’s pissing you off.

Let’s substitute other kinds of misdeeds and see how ridiculous it sounds.

“I wasn’t even THINKING of shooting you, but your constant insecurity that I would shoot you is what made me shoot you.”

“Did I want to rob a bank? Well, of course I like money. But if you hadn’t been there constantly worried about me robbing a bank, wondering why I was wearing a ski mask in summer, and questioning my safe cracking hobby, I NEVER would have robbed that bank!”

“I never even considered eating cookies until you said ‘No cookies before dinner time!’ You planted that idea in my head! But once it was there, and you were being such a jerk about my feared cookie consumption, well then I had to go steal some cookies out of the cookie jar. I’d never known chocolate chips before! It’s all THANKS TO YOU! I see what I was missing now!”

Is the picture coming into clearer focus? He’s blameshifting his shittiness on to you, Nuts. That’s what they do. My guess is he’s been having an affair with this woman longer than the “emotional” affair he copped to. It’s upsetting because he’s saying you brought this injury upon yourself. (Note how the responsibility shifts from him to you.) It’s insult upon injury. He’s saying you deserve it, your bad behavior made him do the very thing you feared he would do.

Bullshit. He cheated because he wanted to cheat. He kept this flame alive for years, because he wanted to keep you off balance and not commit to his marriage. This is not a love for the ages, Nuts. My guess is that this guy needs a triangle to feel powerful. He enjoys the mindfuckery — so stay no contact with him. If you let him, he’ll use you as his hypotenuse with the OW. And as enjoyable as you think it would be to fuck with her, you’d just be playing his game.

It could be your suspicions made cake harder. She’s a better sucker, so he left for her. It’s sparkly, it’s a new someone to manipulate. But I promise, a sick guy like that needs to keep the upper hand. He’ll goad her into the pick me dance too, and never appear like he’s totally on board with her. Let HER go insane for the next 10 years. She just took a manipulative bastard off your hands. You’re free.

This wasn’t your fault. He’s a cheater and you’re best rid of him. Now you get to gain a new life with a better caliber of people. Let him have his old flame from high school. I have a feeling he just Facebook friended a middle school sweetheart.

This column ran previously. Feel free to comment!

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • The more I talk with others the more I find how common this is. Mine did it a lot after d-days — “If you are going to think I am cheating anyway, maybe I should. You are pushing me to this with your suspicions.” I feel really dumb now having fallen for that particular piece of blame shifting and threatening but at the time my world was crumbling and I would have done anything to keep it from crumbling further. As CL says, trust that they suck when they do this. They are masters of manipulation and dodging personal responsibility for anything.

    • “If you are going to think I am cheating anyway, maybe I should. You are pushing me to this with your suspicions.”

      Blameshift Alert: You know you have a bad MC, when they are lock step with THAT cheater refrain.

      • It’s the “You don’t trust me, therefore, I cheat.” It makes perfect fucking sense. smh . . .

          • True story: My first Exhusband (cheater) once had a small car accident while driving home sober. He was offended the police did a field sobriety test, which is ironic because he frequently drove drunk. He said “I drive drunk and never have wrecks, I only have a wreck when I am sober so I may as well drive drunk”.
            And he did.

            • Can’t argue with that logic. Maybe he should try adding drugs to the mix while driving. It might make him an even better driver. Shaking my head…

    • OH MY GOD – I heard this SOOOOO many times – “well, you already are accusing me of cheating so I might as well being doing it”….

      After I found Chump Lady and figured out what a bullshit line that was, next time he gave it to me I said – “well, in that case I’m also accusing you of getting off your fat drunk ass and getting a job!”

      Idiot.

  • Another brilliant story supporting the glories of No Contact, the path to the truth and the light!
    No Contact is a great way to avoid triangulation. Remove yourself from the equation and say “ahhhhhhh.”
    Walk away, let her have him, don’t look back and enjoy your freedom. It might take awhile but you will learn how to find happiness again.

  • What is it with the insecurity excuses?? But mine said just the opposite. He said he had insecurities (which was news to me he never mentioned that before in all those years!) which caused him to cheat. Insecurities my ass, they cheat because they can, they cheat because they want to, they cheat because they are sorry pieces of shit!

    • Mine has insinuated she cheated because she had/has “a fear of abandonment.” So … she set herself up for me divorcing her because she feared I would? What?

        • Ok ANR, mine has insinuated that one as well. He KNEW I would one day leave so he had to leave AND cheat on me. This just sux. You know?

      • In other words, she thinks she needs a backup plan for when you figure her out and leave. In a way it’s a compliment. It means you are too good for her and, deep down, she knows it.

    • “I believed that I wasn’t making you happy anymore, that you weren’t happy in the marriage.” So he fucked a delusional whore who saw lights coming out of her body during orgasm and believed god told her the affair was divinely sanctioned. Yeah, way to make me happy, Fucktard.

      • Chchchchump I heard something similar to that. “I didn’t think you were attracted to me anymore, I wasn’t even sure you wanted to be with me any longer”. That is such BS! I showed him affection everyday because I loved him and wanted to be with him – the shit they dream up in their psycho heads.

        • Yup, variation on the same theme. Mine also said, “we don’t like each other any more.” Good of him to speak for me. In the end though, he was right.

        • Yes, i also heard the “I didn’t think you were attracted to me anymore” and I am going through a midlife crisis and “I just haven’t felt good about myself”! And now thanks to him, I don’t feel good about myself! Oh insecurities!

        • Me too! I got ” I thought you didn´t love me anymore”…what? Because I dedicated my life to him, made all my decisions in relation to his interests, and brought up his children, found a beautiful home for us as well as gave up all my salary for the family. How can cheaters be so stupid and mean? Now he is living with an unemployed women who has cheated on all three of her husbands. I am sure she really knows how to love him!

      • CHchchchump, that was pure gold!! Calamity, the “disco vagina” is yet another perfectly coined label for these disordered pieces of glory-wannabes. Wow, do I love CN.

  • Do you think that the cheaters, have convinced themselves that these types of things are true? I am absolutely amazed at the cheaters ability to blame shift.

    • Neah, they are just delusional. But then so were we, the codependent ones who believed in the power of “lhuve” and unicorns. The difference is that while there is no cure for them, there is hope for us. And that is no small thing. Just sayin’.

      • You just described skankboy in all his wonderfulness!!! His fragile ego was exhausting! Glad I wiped his sorry butt off my shoes!

    • I do. I think a lot of cheaters believe their own bullshit. I said something similar about The Entitled One the other day — he believes what he says in the moment he’s saying it, but when circumstances shift (or shit gets founds out), he means the new things he’s saying. I think that’s why they’re so good at lying. To them, whatever crap is coming out of their mouths is the truth…and to them truth is malleable and changeable.

      • I think they never stop to examine whether it’s true or not, because that would require owning what they’re saying, as either truth or lie. It’s VERY HANDY for them to not think about that, just say whatever seems advantageous at the moment. And of course, they’re totally entitled to do that, only other people are required to make an effort to tell the truth and take responsibility (they would HATE IT if the rest of the world were as unreliable as they are!).

        It’s not delusional, because that’s inadvertent. It’s CONVENIENT!

        • You two are brilliant, Better Days and KarenE. You describe that mentality perfectly. Since they are the center of the universe, it follows that whatever they say has to be true, at that moment anyway.

          • Mine said he had situational ethics….Didn’t know the depth of that mindfuckery until it was too late.

        • Hummm…everything you guys are saying is true! …I started noticing that satan would change – completely change – bout every 15 minutes…it was quite shocking to witness. Like that spaceship captain on ‘Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Universe’. Course with all the meowing and raging I suppose it was hard for him to behave like an adult with a brain. Almost sixty years old and acting like a teenager with raging hormones and no conscience.

          Thank goodness I am out of there…

        • “space-lie continuum” I love that, yo! This place is a chump version of the artist salons of old, exchanging ideas and witticisms. Only thing missing is the absinthe.

      • My stbx has this thing now, “Everybody has their own truth.” So lies he made up about me, like he thought I was cheating 7-8 years before he got caught, but he was too scared to ask and just hoped it would end…that’s his truth. It makes him feel better about what he did. The problem is it fails to acknowledge what’s REAL!! Reality is my truth, not some lie I’ve made up in my head and called it truth cuz it benefits me. His “truths” are lies!!

      • The best is when they have to live the lies with the OW. He tiold her he had to support me. Hmmm… I’m still living my pre DDay life paying all the bills in two homes and supporting my son and granddaughter. He wanted her the pig who makes little money to support him. It was all a con to move in with her and get out of his responsibilities. When she said this to me I laughed and said I make a lot of money. He wanted me to support him and I said NO.

      • Long time reader, first time poster. This reply is to BetterDays’ comment…”To them, whatever crap is coming out of their mouths is the truth…and to them truth is malleable and changeable”. This is so true of my cheater. I am almost 5 weeks out from final, final, final, really final this time D-day.
        This site has been such a blessing to me. So many laughs from so much pain. All of you are Mighty and all of you inspire me with your courage and your resilience, and although you haven’t known it, you’ve been a support through the last few years of ten years of pain. I will definately not be the only one. Thank you, CN and CL.

        • freeindeed – Welcome to CN, I am sorry for the pain you are going through, and hope you will keep reading, and commenting, as well as participate in the forum for support as you forge on to Meh!

    • My late husband really believed the excuses and blameshifting zingers he came up with. One reason I am (now) certain he was a long term cheater was the disassociative disorder he manifested as our marriage progressed, he would just shut reality out completely.

      In terms of blame…when we were very young and dating, we hit a fork in the road, I wanted to marry, he didnt, we broke up and dated others. During that time I dated a guy and had a physical relationship with him. Late H and Iater got back together and married. I was a true blue, faithful wife…never strayed in the very least. In the throws of his affair(s) he said “when you dated Craig, you put us on this path where we find ourselves now”. I said “My dating put us on a ‘path’ ? What about 18 years of being a faithful wife, what ‘path’ was that?”. Apparently he fucked Ho(s) because I dated when we were broken up before we were married.

    • I think its more complicated than that. I think a lot of stuff mine said he knew was bullshit or straight up a lie, but he felt entitled to have me believe the lie. I was a meanie for not trusting and thinking he could be lying — which for him justified more lying and cheating. It is a tangled skein they weave.

    • Magneto – Their thinking isn’t normal, but very dysfunctional. Often times, to us normal people, it makes no sense at all how they process information. But these people don’t think like us. They do believe what they are telling themselves, and they want us to bend our reality to fit their messed up thinking. They want us to bend our truth to fit their messed up world, so they can keep up the warped reality they are living in. On the outside they may appear normal, but their minds are seriously messed up.

    • I Have wondered this myself many times – if he actually believed his own lies? I know he really believed he was a great man, he truly believed he was the Godly man he walked around and pretended to be! He acted so shocked when a few people called him out on his BS when the truth came out about his affair. He couldn’t believe people were thinking so badly of him lol….

    • 1. When they lie or manipulate to get a direct benefit, such as sex, money or cover-up for their misdeeds, they know perfectly well they are lying.
      2. When they distort reality or rewrite history to make themselves appear the victim or the “better person,” then yes, absolutely they believe that bullshit.

      • That’s exactly it in my experience. Took me so long to figure it out. You summed it up perfectly.

      • Completely agree with GiO on this one.

        My experience was that cheating STBXW was ok with lying about whatever, so long as she could rationalize/justify it. However, I absolutely think that she hit major cognitive dissonance on her actions vs. her view of herself as a good person, and was so desperate to rectify it that she believed whatever bullshit she told herself to do that, and whatever lines to that end that she was fed by her family and her AP. After all, for some (many?) people, grasping at those straws feels a lot better than dealing with changing their own character.

      • Great distinction. I think you captured it perfectly.

        This whole conversation has me thinking about how therapists (at least in my experience) protect the cheater’s narrative. I remember arguing with The Entitled One in marital counseling about his version of some past event and Enabling Shrink interrupted to explain to me that memories are always distorted, two people look back on things and remember them differently, current experience colors our memories, etc, etc. I backed down but I wanted to shout, “That’s not what he said at the time! That’s not how it happened!” Had I done that, I would have only confirmed Enabling Shrink’s therapeutic wisdom that “there’s always two sides to every story” and his opinion that I wasn’t supportive enough. Thank goodness I’ve always kept a journal and saved e-mails, letters, cards, etc. If The Entitled One’s latest narrative of our relationship is the truth, then all that means is he was an epic liar and a brilliant actor for 20+ years.

        That whole “two sides to every story” bit doesn’t seem to account for the possibility that one of those sides may be a deliberate distortion or lie.

        • You got me thinking about the cards. I saved a few memorable ones. You know, the heartfelt cards when he said he was sorry and I was too good for him. I should have told him then that he was right, I was too good for him and left.

      • Glad, and when they distort reality or rewrite history in order to make themselves larger than life, heroic, and exceptional, they totally believe what they are saying.

  • Welcome to the 1001 excuses of why cheaters cheat page. Here you will have the revelation that everything the cheater says or tries to blame upon you is utter bullshit. Mommy issues, daddy issues, unhappiness, addictions, midlife crisis, you name it, it is all bullshit. You will also find out here that a) it was not your fault, b) nothing you can do can fix the cheater, c) you will be fine eventually: happier, healthier and wiser.

    Also, and very, very important, when it comes to cheaters “No Contact” is the best thing since sliced bread.

    Just hang in there!

    • 1001 Excuses – is that like the 1001 Nights? “Oh darling, I swear I’ll change, but it’s too late tonight, let me do it tomorrow..”

      • “Oh darling, tomorrow is another day when I ain’t doing shit.” 🙂 1001 nights of cheater promises and 0 change.

    • Unchumping, I think that’s the best crash course in Chump Lady that I’ve ever seen. You’ve nailed it!

    • In an interview in the local paper, my ex actually stated that his “abusive” father “made him settle” for getting married and having a good career. I guess all of the cheating was entirely ex’s idea, though.

    • So his selfish, paternalistic, blame shifting excuses were not due to my lactose intolerance?

  • My ex blamed me for his choice in ugly women. Yes, that’s right he stated they were ugly and it was my fault that he chose to sleep with ugly women.?

    • Laughing at this Renewed. The Limited ended up with a beast in so many ways. Guess they have to have some kind if an explaination. I’ll settle for, he’s fucking dumb.

    • This has been a tough one for me to learn. I don’t consider myself an intuitive person. I’m much more analytical. Sensory not perceptive. So when I do get a “gut feeling” I don’t want to trust it because I want facts, data, concrete evidence. But I’m learning slowly to trust that and at least rely on it to be cautious, if not to base a decision on. Especially since I don’t get those gut feelings very often, I try to pay very close attention to them now. It’s been remarkable how I usually end up with validation of them.

    • I didn’t listen and I KNOW better. When I started snooping, which I have never done I said to myself, “If you have to look for evidence, you know he’s cheating.” But my heart denied my head and gut and said, “Not my husband.” I thought about asking a coworker to do surveillance, and again my gut told me that if I thought about going that far, I knew the answer. Stupid heart shouts and talks right over the mumbling gut.

  • I have a friend who’s husband cheated. After she had a baby, she wanted to lose baby weight so she started exercising. She really liked it and got into really great shape. Her husband blamed her for being insecure about her appearance. ??

    Another cheater, (female) who’s husband treated her like a queen, blamed her husband for never checking the air in her tires or bringing up the empty trash cans from the curb…..so she cheated on him…. head-scratch.

  • It’s amazing how powerful chumps are, that they can exercise total mind and body control over cheaters just by doing normal life things like experiencing emotions, loading dishwashers “wrong”, and, you know, breathing. And with that total mind and body control, they force cheaters to do things they don’t want the cheaters to do (because people with total control usually use it to harm themselves, of course, right?)

    Cheaters feign powerlessness when it suits them, and it’s BS every time. What is he, an infant? No. He’s an adult and he chose everything he did and said. Blaming his choices on you, her (because that’s next, after it stops working to blame you), his parents, his barista, his hairy armpits, Titanic, or anyone/anything else, is total horse shit.

    I am so sorry he did, and does, this to you. Hugs.

  • The stbx used to blame me because he didn’t have any free time. Yeah, I expected him to come home after work because I had dinner waiting & the kids wanted to see him. It was pure hell living with us lol.

  • Dear Nuts,

    Ahhh yes. The old “the devil made me do it” defense. It’s in chapter 2 of the cheater handbook. Unfortunately chumps are often cast in the role of devil in the handbook but cheaters are crafty. They’ll toss the blame around liberally and hope that it sticks somewhere.

    Your job is to be Teflon. Let his blame shifting slide right off you and the best way to go about that is strictly enforced no contact. I tell you what. No contact truly is the best thing since sliced bread!! Once you get away from that madness you start to see the madness for what it truly is.

    Hugs to you.

    • I have been thinking a lot about this idea of being cast in the role of devil, too, from a slightly different angle. There was some point where I went from hm to aha when contemplating the idea that what semmed like love for me was actually love of novelty and fantasy (which is why it seemed so real and was, therefore, convincing — when I WAS novelty and fantasy because, he DID love what I represented, and it’s hard to differentiate those on the receiving end.) When I became a partner, I became usual, daily, known. The sin I committed was to exist and desiring intimacy made me the enemy, someone who made it more exciting to escape into fantasy because my existence made it tasty tempting forbidden fruit.

      • By the way, in case you all didn’t know, it’s crappy autocorrect grammar day. It’s all the rage. jk 😉

        • Thanks! Every time I learn another thing, and grow from it, I am.doing better. Thanks for the support and rightbackatchya! 🙂

      • So true, Amiisfree–they must have “new!” Mine was constantly looking at new! houses, and perhaps a new! car and new! sparkly vacation spots. Not a leap to realize he needed new! pussy constantly.

        • Snake to a tee… Never bought a used car in all the time I’ve known him. Never bought a previously owned home either. No, it all had to be unsullied by hands of the great unwashed.

          And, yes, at one time, I was the shiny new thing and thought it would last [facepalm]

        • Oh gosh, my ex was the exact same way. He also never held down a steady job, and was happen to destroy us financially so long as he got his shiny new object. He often spoke about missing the “new” in our relationship, but for a long time I was in the dark about him actively seeking out new sexual partners.

        • Snake-bit – ‘Snake to a tee… Never bought a used car in all the time I’ve known him. Never bought a previously owned home either. No, it all had to be unsullied by hands of the great unwashed.’

          Well, you just now put together the very last piece in my puzzle – my meh-day was last Tues, but next Tues will be even brighter having this sudden knowledge pop into my head. A real ‘duh’ moment, but also an ‘aha moment!’.

          He also had to be the biggest fish in the sea, best cars, best homes and finally built a Mausoleum in a small town to really show how Big his DICK was! Take that folks. The Cowboy has arrived. Got the belt buckle to prove it. And, of course, he was successful in business and knew everything there was to know about the financial industry. (unfortunately, nobody could ever prove him wrong)

          It ONLY makes sense now, that when he hit his personal ‘vision of the pinnacle of success’, did he start looking around and sniffing for more ‘new’. It makes so much sense. He had accomplished all he wanted at 60 and got bored, I guess. Too bad the sailboats no longer turned him on. A hobby, ANY hobby. He had none. Well, except he got really got at sneaking around for 3 yrs.

          Thanks for the North Star, Snake-bit!

          I see my future a little more clearly.

    • Teflon, yes. I accepted WAY too much blame throughout the marriage – I was well trained by a narc dad and BPD mom….accepting blame is what I did. I was unaware of his earlier affairs but I now see him blaming me all along then too. When he fell for Susan of Seattle, he said “I didnt get here alone” (You take half the blame for my affair) I said “you got to this exact place entirely on your own”. Fuck that shit.

  • “My ex’s story is now: ‘He would never have had feelings for the old flame if I had not been so insecure.’”

    When I read this I felt so enraged I thought I might turn into The Hulk.

    Can science invent a way to punch words? ‘Cuz that’d be nice.

    Nuts, I had no idea my ex was cheating. I didn’t realize I was Pick Me dancing or that I even had competition until he abandoned me to move in to OW’s house. It was only after that I found the evidence in our home he didn’t realize he’d left.

    So I guess I wasn’t insecure enough. I was too oblivious so he cheated and picked fights so he could feel justified in leaving a “bad” marriage.

    Or MAYBE… he’s a douchebag who doesn’t see any reason to limit himself if there’s something that he wants. And he CAN’T be a “bad guy”, so,

    OUR FAULT! Yep OUR fault that they CHEATED!

    #hulksmash

    • OMG!!! You said, “I didn’t realize I was Pick Me dancing or that I even had competition…” Wow. I think that was me too. I certainly didn’t Pick Me dance on DDay or after. I’d already done it and I was found lacking. I think the ex enjoyed that so very much. I have memories of times he stood there and lied to my face to create an alibi for himself so he could meet the OW.

      I was also blamed after discovery. “sex was just going through the motions” as if that was all my fault. That one always pissed me off. He always got HIS and I never got mine. Seems i should have been the one complaining (and I did) and/or cheating! He also mentioned that I didn’t sit on the couch with him….so cheating. Ridiculous.

      • Yeah I totally get you. After discovery I had wanted SO BADLY to let him know I found out, and finally knew the REAL reason that he’d been an absolute monster to me for a long time before finally acting like he just couldn’t take “it” (our imaginary “bad” marriage) anymore and heading straight over to Schmoopie’s house. The only thing that stopped me was I knew he’d put all of the blame on me. I didn’t need MORE LIES.

        • And it would have been more lies. That’s what I got when I confronted him. First he laughed. Then he said they were just friends. That is just so insulting. He said he was sorry that he made it seem like a big deal by not talking to me about it. I was like are you serious??? Those phone records were ridiculous! He had never talked/texted with me that much since the beginning of our marriage. And prior to DDay, I was told NOT to call him during work hours unless it was an emergency. And now I know why. He was “busy”.

          • When I finally checked the phone records there were 200 phone calls a month for the 4 months leading up to his departure date. I didn’t call or text him at work because he was so busy. Yeah, busy with coworker. The phone calls between me and him numbered around 20. Lol. And then there were calls to the hotel reservation desk every week. When he started staying out and I questioned him he said how insecure I am. No, not insecure. Just listening to my gut screaming at me. He said he was unhappy. Well then tell me and handle it like a man not a cheating lying coward. They are so pathetic. He said he went to hotel by himself. Lol. The receipt I found says occupancy: 2. The lies. Ugh

      • Ahh! I got a “you don’t sit on the couch with me” too. I just couldn’t even. Yes, cause I want to cuddle up to an a$$hole who cusses me out for no reason. That was BEFORE I found out about all the cheating. Never mind early in our marriage he complained that I was too clingy and didn’t like to be cuddled up very much. Didn’t matter what I did it was the wrong thing — because (I’m gradually learning to believe) I. wasn’t. the. problem.

    • Me too GOYSACA, totally oblivious too. Truth was there was no time to investigate. I was going to nursing school evenings, working full time nights, running a house by myself, and trying to parent two teen boys. Didn’t have much time to even pick me dance. That consisted of one session with a totally clueless MC after which I refused to go back to see him further. The fuckwit MC absolutely refused to even to discuss shithead cheater ex’s girlfriend. He lost me at …..wait for it…..We’re not talking about that now! Asshole. It still pisses me off!

        • Kay – I’m not trying to answer for Tessie, but I think nursing is definitely a ‘calling’. It’s not something everybody could do, like a doctor. But, many in my family are nurses for a reason. Nurses have something very ‘special’. I know they get burned out early doing night shifts at hospitals, etc, but you can build up to getting into a slower-paced doctors office. Also, the need for nurses is always in high demand in every city and usually very well paid over other ‘female’ jobs. Men are clamoring to get past the stereotype so they can enter the field. Yep, this is one are of job discriminate that men nurses need to deal with. For instance, they can’t even be a breast-technition for mammograms. Can’t imagine what else they’re cut from but many male nurses have complained to me. If you have the ‘calling’, darling, you just HAVE to go for it.

          Hope Tess responds.

          • Yep well mine surely had ‘ the calling’ to be a male midwife… Turns out he’s a deviant who lusted after women at their most vulnerable labour and lactation…. Along with many other deviant behaviours I try not to recount ? Not saying all guys are like this but now I’m sceptical when I see male nurses when I never had this problem before ?

        • I loved it. I’m retired now and there are parts I really miss, and others that I don’t. The pay was great. The hands on with patients, really making a difference was wonderful. I worked my butt off, and learned a tremendous amount. It’s a great job if you like to stretch yourself in every way. You get to be with people at some very special times in their lives. My last job was working with new moms and babies, and in the newborn nursery.

          However……..

          It is a job you have to love in order to do. The hours suck. Nights for me. The workload has increased exponentially from when I first started. Working every other weekend and every other holiday suck, but it’s part of the job. Being expected to work two eight hour shifts in a row if they were short nurses suck big time. It’s called being mandated. Then you would be expected to be back in eight hours. Don’t even get me started on computer charting. Like I said, there are parts I miss, but I love being retired.

          • I do know that the last person I want to see in my life is a smiling nurse…as I don’t know how they keep that up. I’ve been in hospital too many times lately and everyone was so so so so so nice, and they were working the night shift. Some nurses are bossy. I like them too!

  • I found my CW private messaging on old high school “friend” a month after it started and said whoever it is, it must stop. She broke down and apologized. Two years and several intermediate discoveries later, I found it went underground had turned into a EA and PA and it was her high school boyfriend.

    In counseling she said if I hadn’t been snooping and seen those early messages nothing would have come of it. I obviously called BS. Funny thing though the counselor didn’t.

    Not to digress but it brings to mind how weak many counselors are in holding people accountable for their choices and actions, and getting them to own their shit!

    • Ha – it’s all your fault with the snooping! I heard the same thing too. The X was aghast that I hacked into his Find-my-I Phone and tracked him to a motel. Yeah, I’M the asshole.

      Look, I knew something was up so yes I snooped. And thank God I did because who knows how long he would have been cheating on me. It was obvious he had no intention of going anywhere. I could have been a chump for years.

      As for the counselor, I would have left. Nope and nope.

      • Rumblekitty – I love the way you write. “I heard the same thing too. The X was aghast that I hacked into his Find-my-I Phone and tracked him to a motel. Yeah, I’M the asshole.”

        You echoed my sentiments exactly, but for which I couldn’t put into words. And it’s so true, these cheaters are appalled when we no longer tolerate their behavior. And I loved this last part, where we become the assholes for calling them on their crap. Thank God we take matters into our own hands and end this madness. Good for you for snooping and following your gut. You are mighty!

        • Untold, at least I didn’t have to put up with a clueless counselor. But I did get “you had no right to go through my receipts!” said with righteous anger. I laughed in his face and told him he was hardly in a position to claim the moral high ground.

    • I’m sorry you were further victimized by a bad counselor, Untold. Can’t cure stupid,can only walk away from it.

    • Untold, the therapist clearly was dazed and confused, like our crapweasels!!
      IMO cheater apologists are triggered by their own shite.
      Sorry you had to deal with that.

    • Amen, mine insisted on a new age counselor that “understood” polyamory. Even she told him that starting an affair was not polyamory. Boy, did he blow up at that. But, in the end, he bamboozled her into thinking that the fault was mine…I didn’t communicate well with him, didn’t partner with him, wasn’t sexual enough with him.

      It was all about him! She even had to tell him to comfort me when I was sobbing my eyes out!

      The blame shifting and alternate reality these assholes live in is amazing! No contact works. CL and CN rocks!

      • Mine also told me he wouldn’t have to go to such extreme lengths to cover his technology tracks if I didn’t snoop. Dude, the chicken came before the egg on that one. When I tried to point this out he said that he had to start covering his tracks because if I read his stuff, I would accuse him of cheating.

        From the Annals of, You Can’t Make This Shit Up.

    • I felt horrible tracking her and snooping, I was thinking how terrible I was and what a jealous person I am and what reasons I’d use to justify my snooping if she caught me…. then I found out she’d been cheating for years with her co-worker and pooooof… I realized the snooping wasn’t wrong, or me being jealous..it was loooong overdue. My gut instinct wanted me to break my values, and do something sneaky like snoop to save myself. I had plenty of good solid reasons to be suspicious and to protect myself.

      Some counselors are probably cheaters and might get nervous when they hear stories about chumps standing up for themselves. Remember the article from a week or so ago where the FOX news Dr. thinks that the problem with cheating is getting caught, not the lies. It seems that a PHD doesn’t always teach a person about common decency and how to treat fellow humans with respect.

    • My lawyer suggested I see a counselor. I have no faith in counselors. I did see one a few weeks prior and she was a waste of time. Totally irritated me. My first husband put me through this crap 25 years earlier and I was dealing with aging parents and their passing. Over a period of time I saw psychologists, a psychiatrist and psychopharmacologist – who was crazier than his patients! The psychs are good to get meds from… but that just numbs you – which might be nice for a minute. Getting off anti-depressants was not fun – the withdrawl symptoms suck. Listening to people like you guys who have lived it is better therapy in my opinion. And herbs like holy basil and rhodiola rosea.

  • Alcoholics are notorious for drinking because “you nagged me about drinking and now because you said something about not drinking I’m going to have a drink!” Someone else is always at fault for their drinking. Cheaters, drunks, whatever, disordered is disordered.

  • I’m worried, I’m starting to think Chump Lady is psychic. Whatever I’m thinking of , she writes about.

    I’m not trying to untangle his skein of fucked up ness, but I am fascinated by Abnormal Psychology, lol, and I’ll just occasionally have an insight into the cheater mind.

    My two Major Sins that caused the cheating were Weight Gain and Bad Housekeeping, with the usual sides of jealousy, insecurity, insanity, etc. I’ll confess to the first two, but that’s it, lol.

    Anyway, my house is a wreck right now cause I’ve been super busy. I walked thru my living room and thought This place is a wreck! this morning. It’s like I heard a voice in my head say “so THAT’S what made it OK for the ex to commit ADULTERY.”. Only when you have time and space from it can you really appreciate how fucked up their Logic is. Wow.

    • Oh, Anita, that mental torture we do on ourselves is the worst. I’ve been slowly and painstakingly deprogramming myself from his blameshifting, judgements, and criticisms. You’re right — time and space are key!

      And just so you know…the Entitled One gained 70lbs during our relationship, was a slob, and told me he shouldn’t have to do any housework because he “didn’t care about a clean house.” I never even considered cheating because of Weight Gain or Bad Housekeeping.

      • BetterDays, you have some great insights. “Deprogramming myself from his blameshifting, judgements and criticisms”…this is the process I’m in right now. 5 weeks from final final D-day, and eight days NC. I got blamed for his ‘health problems’…yeah, arsehole…I caused your arthritic knee, your pre-diabetes status and your obesity. Ok. I was the one serving salads for an entire year, while he ate fried chicken and drank beer with facebook skanks for the 16 hours a day he pretended he was ‘working all day’ and didn’t lose more than 7 of his glorious 117 kg mass. Deluded much?

        • Hi FreeIndeed. Welcome to CN and so sorry you had to join the club none of us wanted to be members of. Reading this blog has been a lifeline for me during the worst period of my life and I hope it’s as helpful for you!

  • Yup, yup, yup, the good ol’ ” you’re insecure” line. I agree with CL that it’s such a common line that is thrown out there. My ex boyfriend told me that I’m not *letting* him have sex with other women. And when I dumped him because of that line, he told me it’s because “I’m insecure”. Whatever dude, I hightailed it out of there. It’s such a typical response. Whenever a person is called out on their inappropriate behavior, it’s the typical response that is given that we’re insecure. Which means, they would like to continue doing and saying inappropriate things, and we should tolerate it. A normal person would actually address our concerns in a loving and caring way, rather than selfishly state we’re insecure, when chances are, they are insecure ones.

  • Yeah, one of the Exhole’s female friends (and probable fuckbuddy) told me, the day after the first Dday, that if I hadn’t been such a jealous bitch, it never would have happened.

    Umm? Jealous?? Buahahaa! I went out of the way to be the awesome wife who didn’t nag.

  • Blameshifting is the stock in trade modus operandi of the character disordered, Nuts.They do not ever own their crappy behaviour.
    I got the same shit from my ex.Apparently I have a tendency to procrastinate and this caused him to rush into the arms of another.It was mostly my fault allegedly.
    The best thing you can do for yourself is shut him down and get away from the mindfuck.It takes time to heal but you will get there.

    • Deedee – I 100% agree blameshifting is their stock in trade for these mentally disordered people. They blame others, because they are soooo incredibly perfect in everything they do and say. So it is impossible that they are the problem, therefore, it must be everyone else, especially their spouse (sarcasm and eye roll). They even cheat because it is our fault, heck we were even breathing the wrong way, which caused them to cheat.

      • Oh yes.My heart goes out to Nuts as I clearly remember that in the midst of my anguish and sorrow after D day,being blamed for the demise of the relationship added to my pain and confusion.
        I wish I had known about CL back then.It would have saved me a lot of suffering.Chumps give the best advice ever.

  • My cheater blames (among other things) a vacation I took with my daughter instead of with him. Does it matter that he did not want to go on that vacation? That he told me to go ahead with my daughter and have fun? It does not. Does it matter that I arranged a vacation for him while I was away at a water park he enjoyed? Ha! You must be joking. The important thing here is that I went without him. I had fun without him. Maybe more fun than he was having at the water park. So I had it coming.

  • Naïve little old me never ever suspected he’d go that far until D-Day, so I wasn’t insecure about him cheating because I was silly and arrogant enough to believe marriage and children meant the same thing to him. Um no.

    One of his frequently used excuses is “You were never happy!” Maybe that’s because I was neglected, ignored and left to handle the parenting and caring for the children for the majority of our marriage? Because he wanted to spend more time out bowling or hanging with friends than with me? Because I was at the bottom of the totem pole as far as importance went in his life? Yeah. Why wasn’t I ever happy?

    Coincidentally enough, OW has a history of threatened suicide attempts, has gone into the mental hospital at least once, refuses to take antidepressants because she doesn’t like how they make her feel and stopped going to counseling during the affair probably because even her therapist told her to knock it the fuck off. But she’s a better catch? Okay…

    • Me too Cakeless I never thought he would cheat on me! My dumbass thought we had something special. When I noticed something was going on with him and realized he was having an affair it sent me into a horrible shock! I will have 3 years out in July and I still wake up most days in disbelief that he cheated and destroyed our marriage. I can’t believe I was so blind!

      • Do not be too hard on yourself, somuchhurt, because you did not expect the one you loved and trusted to be deceptive.

        I adored my ‘partner’ (loosely applied term NOW), so I was easy to trick!

        Self examination must be done with very kind eyes.

        • Thanks for saying that, Virago. Cheating was the last thing I suspected of him until the shit when down, and then it was the biggest and most painful OMG. 20 months later, I’m at Meh, but it was a long and winding road full of self-recrimination. Very kind eyes, I love that and hope we can all see ourselves that way.

          • Yeah, could have knocked me over with a feather. I never dreamed it. Now I believe it was all along.

    • Right there with you Cakeless. So much of what you said rings true to me. Neglected, ignored and left to handle the parenting. Except, Satan had no other friends and he somehow blamed me for that. I still have no idea how on earth I was responsible for him having no friends. I suppose his howorker now provides him whatever friends he thought he needed?? Color me clueless. And I also still wake up in disbelief that he cheated and destroyed our marriage. Life is sometimes hard. Especially with young children. I made the mistaken assumption that we were in it together. The level of betrayal is astounding to me.

      • Ugh. I’ve been so blamed for him not having friends. At one point he said it was because of the cheap shoes I wear and how I wear them. Apparently, his “potential friends” are allergic to cheap, poorly worn shoes of his wife.

    • Yup, during the last few years together, my ex often remarked that I seemed unhappy and would suggest that I try to be more pleasant to be around.

      Of course, I WAS unhappy. I was burnt out doing all of the adult things necessary to keep our lives afloat. He emotionally abandoned me and our child, brought in no income, and expected a gold star on the rare occasions he washed a dish. Yet when I stopped eating the shit sandwiches with a grin, he was somehow the maligned one.

      • I love the request for a gold star for doing an occasional dish remark. Isn’t it amazing that we can vacuum, or whatever, and don’t expect a thanks. Thanking me for partipating in our life is stupid. But when he picked fights he said I didn’t thank him “for doing laundry that one time, you know two or three weeks ago. You don’t remember? You had the flu and were throwing up and I needed clean shirts for work. Remember, I left them in the dryer so you could fold later while you were just laying in bed. See, you remember. You didn’t thank me!”

        Shit head.

        • Annie – It’s unbelievable, you’re dying of the flu, in bed, throwing up and how dare you not thank him for that one time laundry he did. Just unfriggin believable.

      • In one of Ex’s “you don’t appreciate everything I do for you” tirades, he complained about me not thanking him for doing the dishes. I laughed in his face. He did the dishes once in a blue moon to “help me out” and I honestly believe that he expected a blow job and a parade in his honor every time.

    • Ah so true! We kept it all going, being the boring adult. Thinking that they were the honorable, great people that they portrayed to the world, all the while they are fucking around behind our backs. And yet, it’s somehow all OUR fault! Amazing little special sparky snowflakes, aren’t they? Can’t wait for the karma bus to finish squishing him and his whore FLAT!

    • I got “I didn’t think I could ever make you happy”. So he cheated on me. Makes total sense.

  • And yet, if you had ignored the hovering ex girlfriend and all the time he spent facebooking her, he would have played the neglect card! I bet you wingnuts to donuts he would have said “You saw us getting closer right before your eyes and YOU DIDNT CARE!” And thats why the affair happened! It was your fault! You cannot win with these fuckers.

  • Right after I unfriended exH (but still peeking at his socia media), he friended several women, including an ex girlfriend who he’d told me cheated on him, and who used to send him Christmas and birthday cards with long letters inside until I put a stop to it (at least I think I did. She could have started mailing them to his office). All while he was still with OW.

  • I was told once that I was too needy. I guess needing to be able to trust him despite catching him in one lie after another, pocket dialing me from bars when he told me he was at Wal-mart, the 1,000’s of porn pics/videos found on his computer while he was withholding intimacy from me, was just too damn much for him to take.

    Turns out, he had this needy obsession to fuck hookers on backpage. The only thing I need from him now is to finalize this damn divorce.

    • You needed to be treated with respect and decency… Needed to not be put at risk for STDs… Needed to not be with a cheater.. sounds like you are about to become much less needy, contrats. 🙂

  • Every time I complained about something…like the time they spent together…the dessert they shared together…him taking her to her ob gyn appts…him crying about not being with her when she gave birth…he called me INSECURE. Damn straight. What sane wife wouldnt be insecure around that crap?

    • Jeez, yo. High risk behaviour by a low mate value partner.
      You were NOT insecure; your relationship was in danger and you were appropriately alarmed!

      • Yo, that’s totally how it was with me. “You’re giving her money because she bounced her account again?” or “You’re going out drinking with her and your other friend when we haven’t been on a date in two years?” or “She slept on our couch again last night?” all of which I greeted with an incredulous wtf, and he had the nerve to get incredulous right back that there was anything wrong with any of these things.

        Well compared to what else he gave her, what’s a few hundred bucks, my privacy and quiet time or time with a spouse among friends?

  • They look and act suspicious.

    So you say so.

    Boom. The excuse is born: If I’m going to be accused of it, might as well do it!

    Now they get to cheat AND blame it on you. Funny how it’s always up to the chump to make sure they’re robots so as to never blink or breathe the wrong way lest they give the cheater reason enough to step out. Do these knuckleheads even want humans for spouses or do they want robots? Blind, deaf and mute until cheater needs to be worshipped, then back to off mode. Perfection is the only thing that grants you the privilege of fidelity from your spouse. Clever of them to give such a generous offer to never cheat as long as you’re perfect…

  • By the way, the “You’re crazy/psycho/insecure” line is straight up bull shit made up by liars, gaslighters and cheaters to keep chumps as the silent little lambs they need to be so that cheaters can do what they want in peace while the chump is to embarrassed and afraid to say anything and be accused of the “crazy/psycho/insecure” line.

    When shit really went down with my ex, I told him I was Eminem from now on… I AM WHATEVER YOU SAY I AM and not only am I okay with that, but I’m HAPPY to be aaaaalllll of it. Crazy? Damn right. Psycho? You’re about to find out what psycho is and then you can compare it to the last time you called me psycho so that you’ll never confuse the term again in your life. You’ll wish you had the psycho you said I was before. Insecure? Well, considering what I have proof of now, I think we’ll scratch that and call it having a brain because I was right. I am exactly what what you’ve been calling me to keep me quiet.

    BECAUSE IF I’M GOING TO BE ACCUSED OF IT, I MIGHT AS WELL BE IT!
    ?

    Did anyone else finally lose it on the cheater? I spent hours a day for months hurling threats to expose him to everyone (family, friends, coworkers, etc) because I had proof and his public image is extremely important to both his career and to his pride. He’s put a tremendous amount of time and energy creating a phony image and he knew his reputation, and likely his career, wouldn’t survive the exposure. For the first time, this arrogant, cocky, smug man with the most obnoxious bravado I’ve ever seen break down into total panic mode, begging me not to show the world what he REALLY is. I know I scared the shit out of him. He was literally sweating and hyperventilating several times, begging me to please stop. I think it’s the first time he ever felt that kind of fear and powerlessness. I kind of feel bad about it.

    • You’re my hero, Lastinline. That would have been my dream scenario. Your cheater deserved to sweat bullets and I’m glad you held his nuts over the fire. I went quietly like the class act I am. I regret that.

      • Puh. Yeah, the “be the bigger person”, “take the high road” nonsense is more bull shit made up by bad people to keep their victims in line. If they’ve got you convinced that you need to “be the bigger person”, they can do anything they want while you sit down quietly.

        NOPE! Not anymore, cheater! Don’t count on the fear of accusations of “stooping to their level” to keep me in line. Honey, I’ve been the Last In Line for literally half my life. This is NOTHING new to me. I can navigate it and I know it like the back of my hand. You’re lost in the forest I’ve been living in for a couple of decades now. I don’t even need to “stoop” to your level. You took me down here from day one and stood on my back anyway. I don’t fear it; I’ve lived it all along and you think I’m afraid to be seen as not the bigger person??? Bitch, please.

        See, the very worst thing for these assholes is to find out their chumps are no longer afraid and are willing to give them a big taste of their own medicine.

        One of the best feelings was watching his face when I told him he didn’t scare me and neither did humiliation and that for every trick he’s pulled, I’ve learned from it.
        I told him I planned to give him the same consideration that he and his colluders have always given me. He took a very shallow breath, eyebrows wrinkled and said that was scary. Later that day, he had to pull the car over to vomit in a parking lot. He vomited again a few days later when we were on the back deck discussing what I should do about all of this. He was bent over the railing, throwing up off the side and I asked him if that position was familiar – it was in reference to the whore he met at a restaurant downtown up the road from his office building. He brought her back to his office, after hours, and bent her over his desk. Is that close enough to call a full circle?

        I’m getting everything I want in the divorce as a tiny bit of compensation for the theft of my dignity. He had WAY too much fun at my expense and we’re disembarking that ship.

        • Lastinline – Your post is my favorite of the day! I love how you turned the tables around and actually enacted the terms he accused you of. It’s so awesome. I have copied and pasted your post and responses for rereading. They made me laugh so much! You are mighty!!

          • Oh, and I couldn’t agree more that they want us to remain helpless little sheep for fear we may be labeled as insecure and psycho. I love your attitude of: Oh yeah, we’ll bring it on. lolol!!

        • OMG! Lastinline I can’t wait for the next installment of your saga “The Important Mr. Arrogant Bastard” and how you finally let that poor screaming, clawing, hissing cat out of the bag.

        • Lastinline, I know that it feels good to give them a little of their own medicine. I have one concern for you. I am a bit worried that your stbx might decide to get rid of his problem by getting rid of you.

          Lest you think I’m being a bit paranoid or dramatic about the whole thing, I have firsthand knowledge of what these cheaters are capable of when they feel backed into a corner and it ain’t pretty.

          Three things I did not understand about cheaters in general and the personality disordered in particular. First they have to win. Their mouldy, shrunken little egos demand it. Any resistance to said ego’s demands are seen as an act of war. All bets are off, we become the enemy and they are going to win no matter what. Which brings us to the second point. They are lazy, and cowards. You can always count on them taking the easy way out. Being severely lacking in moral judgement, coupled with the fallacy that they can do anything they want to and get away with it entitlement can make them dangerous. Third point is that a lot of them have very poor impulse control. Another reason they can turn dangerous.

          How do I know? Cheater ex tried lots of things to get the upper hand after the kids and I left. He failed, not because I brilliantly foiled his plans, but because he was just plain stupid about the whole thing. Yet I never dreamed he would take revenge in the way he did. He kidnapped my youngest son and murdered him. My child was 14. (I say my child because cheater ex lost any right to claim MY son in any way the moment he made the decision to kill.) Cheater ex killed himself a week later in another state.

          I’m not telling you all this to scare you, but to exhort you to please, watch your back. The depths the disordered cheater will stoop to are mind boggling, and remember you have just put yourself into the enemy category by opposing his will. He doesn’t love you, or he wouldn’t have been cheating on you and treating you like crap in the first place …….ergo he gets to do whatever he wants to “to protect himself.”

          All I’m saying my friend, is stay safe. Watch your back, and if you get even the slightest whiff of danger to yourself, get yourself gone, pronto. These people are capable of anything.

          • Tessie:

            I’m terribly sorry about your son. I can’t even imagine that kind of excruciating pain.

            I am not afraid of my ex. I appreciate what you’re saying and I have no doubt that there are individuals like you’ve described out there, but I know my ex and I’m not concerned about physical safety. He’s practically a shell of himself now anyway. He’s on meds for hypertension and likely anti anxiety meds soon. He’s lost weight and isn’t sleeping; looking very feeble these days. I’ve known for years that his lifestyle was going to catch up to him – heavy drinking, heavy smoking, terrible eating habits, and now I know that on top of that, he’s also been juggling mistresses, lies, secret email addresses… He’s not doing shit. He’s ran himself, physically and mentally, into the ground.

            • Not to be argumentative. But I’m sure we didn’t think our cheaters would cheat either. We thought they’d never be that low. Nothing surprises me anymore!

    • Don’t feel bad about it, Lastinline. You did the right thing. If only for a few seconds, your Ex felt the power of possible consequences. Yay for you. Like Fifi says, you’re a hero to those of us who went quietly and classily. I wish now I’d gone temporarily ballistic on him, and left plenty of “scarey truth” ringing in his ears.

      • FindingBliss: I go back and forth on it because I really was horrible to him. I pretty much crucified him and he’s now on meds for his high blood pressure and I think he mentioned that he was going to ask the doctor for some anti anxiety meds for his anxiety because he’s still scared I’ll let the cat out of the bag, publicly. He loses sleep, can’t eat, all that stuff that’s SO familiar to me. Then I remember all the cruel things he did to me and then smiled and walked off with damn near that ridiculous Vince McMahon walk. So proud of himself for ruling everything and doing whatever he wanted while his wife sat in agony.

        I’m not waiting for some mystical entity to even the score. I am my own karma. Good or bad. From now on, I give what I get. I sat down with fingers crossed, at his mercy for many wasted years hoping one day, he’ll be nicer and realize I’ve been loyal all along and actually appreciate it. Well, after finding out I was on a hamster wheel the entire time and never even had a chance, I decided to fight fire with fire. Bad guys can never stand the taste of their own medicine aka people who “stoop to their level”.

        • Lastinline, I just dropped an F’ing bomb today. It is going to rain down on my cheater like napalm and he will have no clue, how it happened or where it came from. Lastinline, you keep posting, cuz ‘Sistas are doing it for themselves, standing on their own feet and ringing on their own bells.’ Never mess with me, I don’t forget or forgive, and if you mess with my kids, God Help You!

    • Last in line…..your post had my crying! I threatened that I was going to expose him as well…and he also called me “psychotic”. I laughed and said “Actually, I don’t think I get enough credit for NOT doing all of the evil thoughts that run through my mind”.

      • Just say that yes, I am indeed psychotic.

        I mean, if you’re going to be accused of it, you might as well be it, right? Isn’t that a line straight out of the cheater rule book? Fight fire with fire. The whole reason he called you that was to make you afraid to challenge him. They want psychotic? Give them your best psychotic. Once they get a real dose of it, they’ll never confuse it with rational emotions ever again.

        Like I said before, I told him I was Eminem – I am whatever you say I am… And once I proved it, guess how many more derogatory names I got called… Zero. Can you figure out why? Because……

        Sing it with me: I am whatever you say I am!

    • Lastinline–Long after I’d filed, I kept investigating then-STBX because I knew there was a lot more ugly out there. Freaked the hell out of him, and I got an email in ALL CAPS telling me to leave him alone, I was stressing him and going to cost him his job, and if I kept harassing him he’d file a complaint. Turns out he had a very, very ugly case of sexual harassment in his past that would definitely cost him his job. I’m considering my options….but may have my hands tied until he finishes paying out of state tuition for my oldest.

      • You know I’m all for it Tempest. That info is a one-way ticket on a downward spiraling karma bus! Make it for 2—the grad whore and the prof whore.

      • BIG fan of sitting on things with a poker face until it’s in your own best interest to play the hand over here.

        I truly believe that if a chump can gather enough strength and gumption, s/he can play the cheaters’ games better than they can. Those ass wipes have NO CLUE how to play the other side of the fence. They’re in such shock that someone had the balls to challenge them at all that they stutter and choke in no time. Chumps have LIVED on the bench while WATCHING the cheaters play. We know both sides. Well. So when the time is right, play ball, sister. Until then? Poker face. ?

        • Yeah, the MFer is starting to catch on that my investigative powers are better than his. For our U, we (by law) must post our curriculum vita with each class we teach. He scrubbed his CV of 2 conference talks where I strongly suspected he’d taken someone with him (a new AP, grad-whore was long gone). No academic takes conference talks OFF their CV! Major red flag, and I’m sure he thought he was very clever for deleting entries I could parlay into more information.

          But…Open Records search, baby! Just got the documents yesterday and it is certain he had someone with him on one of the trips (and defrauded the U out of money to pay for her meals). Watching and waiting……

          • Do you all know who Madame Defage is? She is a character in Tale of Two Cities, who sat on a step as Paris was going to hell in a hand basket and knitted the name of all of the people who were going to lose their heads when the revolution came.

      • Tempest, “revenge is a dish best served cold”. After he pays for the tuition alert his employer.

  • Mine did the exact same thing, kept his old love in my sights through our marriage, not only her but others too. He liked keeping me insecure. He threatened to leave often. Fear was a weapon for him.

    I played the game for 20 years until he ended going on a cruise with his old girlfriend, right before our 20th anniversary. He tried to blame his cheating on everything except himself, even tried to play the victim because I didn’t fold his underwear the way he wanted.

    He is sick, yours sounds like he has the same problem. They are the ones that are insecure. You are fine. Be glad the craziness is gone!

    • His cheating girlfriend might not have any morals and might be a sleazy tramp.. but damn can that girl fold underwear the proper way. Sounds like a winner to me. I wonder how good she is at loading dishwashers… hopefully doesn’t put the dishes in backwards, I know that’s a deal breaker for me.

  • I’m sad to hear the plight of another chump who became the recipient of blameshifting. For the last three months, since my now-ex-boyfriend left me, each morning, I ruminate about the blameshifting directed at me by both him and my cheating STBX (a double s–t sandwich!) I’m trying to replace this unhelpful mental reel with ‘I was with men who had ‘low mate value’ and were aberrant and, in the case of STBX, clinically psychologically disordered (‘crazy’ in laymen’s terms) and crime-committing.’ I am also trying to focus on getting to know the nearly 7 billion other people on the planet other than the disordered, noncommittal former partners and making myself as mighty and wonderful as possible–for my kids, me, and those who deserve all the positive attention I have to give.

    • RSW–“If you build it, they will come.” Work on erecting the mightiest ‘you’ possible–make your life as fulfilling as time permits (given that you’re raising children), do things that fascinate you & give you an inner glow, and erect the scaffolding for boundaries. That radiance will attract the right kind of people, and if a few ‘low mate value’ people come sniffing around, you’ll be strong enough to kick them to the curb.

      Build from within, the rest takes care of itself in time. You’re awesome.

      • At Tempest: such good good advice. I’ve been really struggling these past couple weeks. It’s just hard to swallow and digest all this stuff. Sometimes I don’t even know what I like. Is that weird? I’m just sore.

        • Kay–you’ve been through a maelstrom, and still don’t know which end is up fully (esp. if your cheater was the garden-variety emotional abuser for years as well). One step of self-care everyday..it’s slow but effective. The Pyramids were built one stone at a time. Hugs!

      • Thanks, Tempest. I want to create a better world, not a worse one, so I will continue to wade through the swamp (my life at the moment), which contains both good and bad. I feel compelled to stay alive to protect my children from my STBX, their borderline, narc, antisocial (sociopath) father, who is leading discussions of a book entitled–wait for it–No More Mr. Nice Guy! He asked me out on a date this week but refused to explain any of his past/present behavior. Seems as though he wants to sex me up but not commit to me because commitment would make him feel trapped, which he thinks happens to men who marry women nowadays. Guess we’re all ungrateful b–ches when we dare to question them about their use of cocaine, their sex with prostitutes, and their crimes while married to us. When I asked whether he loved me, he said, ‘I like you’ (does abuse = like in his mind or is he just lying?) and ‘I love myself enough to consider the idea that I might love you.’ 100% narc.

        • You wouldn’t want him to cheat on his-self… I’m sure self loves him as much as he loves self…

    • Exactly! We tend to focus all our energy on those who do blame shift, and on trying to convince them to change their minds and say that maybe it isn’t all our fault. Their opinions become all-consuming, canceling out any reasonable comments suggesting that maybe it’s not all us.

  • Yes, my ex was a master at this. He said he left the
    marriage because I was always so hateful to him (when I would defend myself during one of his provoked arguments, or I would express an opinion different from his). Since he had me under his spell (he knew I trusted his judgement implicitly and would do anything to retain the marriage to keep our family intact), he tried convincing myself and others that I was unbalanced, another reason why he left. Of course, the fact that he changed all his passwords, started dressing differently (including Calvin Klein underwear), picked fights at work so I wouldn’t hang out there anymore (after using my free help for months during the busy season). He still refuses to admit any cheating, even after I found numbers from escorts on his phone bill, but now has a girlfriend after our divorce was final 2 months ago. I started NC, except for using email to convey important details about the kids. I just hope I’m able to keep it up.

    • They deny all of it because they don’t want to have to deal with it or talk about it. They don’t want to address the cheating, the OW, their actions or decisions, bottom line they just don’t want to be bothered. It all boils down to this.

      • Yes Kellia. Don’t want to be bothered. I think that sums up the majority of interactions. Don’t want to be bothered. I’m one of the minions. Just leave me alone

  • Dear Lacking Nuts,

    Of course, you are lacking nothing, IMO, except (hoorah, hoorah!) a cheater!

    MoFaux told me he was sorry BUT he just didn’t know what I expected of him.

    Ha! Decency, loyalty, commitment ~~ he didn’t read about them in the playbook.

    Over time, he and the old flame will smoulder, eventually combust and undoubtedly burn in a hell of their own making.

  • Too true Virago.An ill begotten relationship born of deceit and lies is a high risk for eventual implosion.
    I recently heard that ex is finding his Schmoopie is self absorbed,selfish,spoiled,entitled and uncompromising.
    Is that the karma train I hear ? Toot toot.

    • I could have told him that his cheater girlfriend is selfish and entitled and self absorbed without even meeting her.

  • Nuts, people don’t like being called out on their inappropriate behavior, so they blame shift ASAP.

    I dated a woman once (not the ex wife) who, when I asked if she and a male friend had any history together, immediately got defensive and told me that insecurity isn’t sexy.

    I’m quite aware that insecurity isn’t sexy. But neither was her over-the-top response to my simple and polite question. I hadn’t harped on anything, and only asked once.

    I broke up with her for other reasons not long after, but I still remember that conversation, probably specifically because she actually answered my question with her evasive non-answer.

    And that’s what your husband did, too. You had a legitimate concern, and instead of addressing it as an adult, he attacked you for it and claimed that this was somehow justification of the exact thing you feared in the first place.

    Basically, you said, “I’m worried that you suck.”

    And his response was, “I do suck, but the reason that I suck is… .” And the he finished the sentence with whatever he could think of.

    Fact is, it doesn’t matter how he finished the sentence. No matter his pathetic justification, he still sucks. End of story.

    • After leaving my STBXW I started dating someone else. She was very keen, but I became suspicious about another guy after I heard from friends (who didn’t know we were dating) she hit it off with him, then I began to notice she lied about a few things about him (like when they saw each other) and then she lied about how she says she broke it off with him. We weren’t exclusive, so can’t fault her for seeing someone else, but once someone lies to your face about another guy (even if in a non-exclusive arrangement) it really does make you wonder what they would be like if you got really serious with them. She could have said “I am dating both of you, and will keep doing so until I go exclusive with you, which is not yet” Instead she BS’d me, so I think I’ll take a pass on this one.

      Wish I had given more critical review of my STBX…. would never have married her. Horrible thing to say as we have 3 incredible kids, but wouldn’t have happened with what I now know.

      • “Wish I had given more critical review of my STBX…. would never have married her. Horrible thing to say as we have 3 incredible kids, but wouldn’t have happened with what I now know”.
        FSTL, I have a feeling that most Chumps would make similar comments to you because I know I do. My 2 adult children have chosen their father and his prostitute but I have to say in all honesty that in my quiet moments my heart swells with love for my 2 kids and they are the very best thing that I have ever done with my life. If I never see them or speak to them again, I accept that, that is their choice but I am very proud that I planned them, created them with the help of their sperm donor, gave birth to them and I raised them. They are still my greatest achievements without doubt. Just a pity I chose a f”wit to breed with.

      • FSTL — Good for you for breaking that off! Once of the biggest lessons I’ve learned is that liars lie — it’s a reflex with them. And someone who lies about dating other people when the relationship isn’t even exclusive yet? *Shudder* That was a train wreck a’coming. Glad you got out of the way.

    • Anything that you do or don’t do will be used against you by a cheater in a desperate attempt to evade responsibility. If you stop or start doing something at their request, they’ll find a different reason, or tell you that “things have changed.”

      I worked hard to address my ex’s supposed concerns about me (like the fact that I was so “impatient” when I brought up marriage 3 years into our relationship), only to find that new concerns would pop up when he could no longer complain about what he previously complained about. In the end, his primary issues with me were that a) I existed, and b) had expectations of him.

      Their excuses are like a human game of Wack-A-Mole.

      • “Their excuses are like a human game of Wack-A-Mole.”

        LOL. Yes! During holiday wreckonciliation, I pick-me danced my heart out to address all his concerns about me. So, naturally, when I’d gotten him through the holidays (always a horribly difficult time for him), he came up with a shiny new excuse and left again.

        The great thing about today is for the first time I’m thinking, “You know what? I don’t have to put up with this shit.” And I’m FEELING it.

        • BetterDays, I saw skankboy drive by today and thought the same thing….”I’m free and don’t have to put up with any more shit!” Yeah, us!

  • I am starting to think we should ask Chump Lady to retitle this blog “Wow, narcissists certainly are predictable!”.

  • My cheater told my sister (when he was trying to get her on his side) that he felt like “he always had to walk on eggshells with me.” I’m like “yep, I’m sure he did. thats what happens when you are a liar and cheater and being sneaky during your whole marriage”. I’m so glad to be divorcing and getting free from the mind games he played.

    • Perhaps if he went with honesty instead of bullshit there’d be fewer broken eggs on the floor for him to need to dance around.

    • They accuse you of the very things they do/are. My stbx says I’m evil and a greedy user (he and OW make 6 figures each) because I want more than a thousand a month. He left me and daughter with house with mortgage.
      I said no, greedy evil user is the one lying cheating sneaking and dumping his family, and using threats, bullying, intimidation and cruelty to make me go away. Oh, but he was unhappy! Well, now I’m unhappy so I’ll see you in court.
      And then he got mad that he has to get a lawyer. Boo hoo. They dish out unbelievable cruelty and then cry and whine how mean you are when you stand up for yourself. When he started the affair with this little girl – 22 years old, 25 years younger than him – he became so cold and mean. Like you guys said – like he was possessed. She can have him.

  • My CheaterP whined to me, after getting caught, and attempted wreckoncilliation, that I had NEVER trusted him…(in our thirty years being together)…..To which I replied, it seems that my lack of trust was justified….He didn’t dare try the next statement that if ONLY I had trusted him, he wouldn’t have felt the compulsion to cheat…but I know it was floating around in his brain, hoping to escape through his mouth.

  • As dumb as it sounds, my stbx said he cheated because I trusted him and that made it less likely he’d be caught, so just trust that they suck! Any excuses, however ridiculous, will suffice for them.

  • I have been with my husband since the age of 15. At 18 I cheated on him for about 3 months with a guy I met in college. I stop the affair and vowed to never do anything like that again. I realized the pain that affair cause my husband (boyfriend at the time) and decided that no affair was worth our relationship. Not to mention the affair made me feel like crap for treating someone I loved that way. That was 26 years ago I have never strayed or entertained straying since then I have been totally faithful to him. My husband has since then cheated on me 4 times that I know of. I believe I kept taking him back because of the guilt I felt about cheating on him so many years ago. He actually told me he believes he is the way he is because I cheated on him. He tells me that moment changed his heart forever. I have carried that guilt around for a long time. But, I realize now that it is just his way of making me take responsibility for his inappropriate behavior.

    • Noelblessed, it’s hard to know what to say here, except that you and your boyfriend made a mistake by getting married. Marriage doesn’t fix infidelity.

      Once there has been infidelity, the relationship is damaged permanently. It is like throwing a brick through a stained-glass window.

      Since there has now been infidelity on both sides, it would be best to divorce, and go away sadder but wiser. You are both to blame, but accepting this is the path to healing. It’s hugely painful, but it is the truth.

  • Overall, a woman that actively guards her relationship is far more attractive than a women that does not. Expressing your appropriate concern about this woman was more attractive than not sticking up for yourself.

    Therefore, your “insecurity” made you more attractive, not less. He’s just a selfish, lying cheater blaming others for his own decisions.

  • I’m curious. Did you confess, or were you caught? And were you married at the time? These things color my response, because I come from a place where lots of girls married at 16 or seventeen mainly to get away from their mothers, only to end up back there, usually with a kid, after their marriages imploded from cheating or beating. Observing this put me off the idea of marriage for a long time.

    In any case, he can’t use what you did as a free pass to cheat whenever he wants. Wait…obviously he can do exactly that! Changed his heart forever, my ass. He’s knows he’s got you by the short hairs. No way to spend the rest of your life, IMO.

    • I saw some statistics which said that people who get married before the age of 25 years old, have a 90% chance of divorcing. I’m not sure due to what reason, but I can understand that who you would choose as a life partner at 21yrs old would be completely different than in your 30s. We change the most in our 20s, that chances are we are completely different people by the time we’re in our 30s. And choosing a spouse at 16 years old may not be such a wise decision, just because what the heck does a teenage know about life at that age. Anyway, just some interesting stats I wanted to share.

      • Kellis, this info sounds pretty interesting.
        So now, exh,now 53, (grandfather daddy) starting fucking scumbalina, (ho worker)now 23, and they having a baby in a month! Wonder what those lasting relationship statistics are?

        • I’m no expert Jean M but I would say,off the cuff, not very good. LOL. That’s hilarious. And sad.

        • I agree with KB22 and Kay, that it’s likely 100% going south. Actually I would even go for a 1000% failure rate.

  • Whoops, just reread and now see he was your boyfriend. Now he’s gone into full-out asshole. Did he guilt you into marrying him, too?

    • Pearshaped, with the encouragement of my mother I confessed to the affair as it was only fair to give him the option to chose if he wanted to continue in a relationship with me after such a betrayal to our relationship. I wish I could say he quilted me into marrying him. But, he didn’t I truly loved him and still do. Unfortunately, he is not willing to value our marriage over his own selfish wants so I have decided to file for divorce.

      • Does your cheating in a life time passed give cause for not trusting you? Yes. Does it give is cause to cheat. NO. Just as your cheating had nothing to do with him nor does his cheating on you. Unfortunately, it is likely he was capable or has all along and all your cheating did was give him more ways of gas lighting. Two wrongs do not make a right, we all know this.

      • noelblessed, it sounds like you did just what CL and CN says–told him and let him choose whether or not he wanted to stay with you. I’m sorry it’s worked out the way it has, but your actions did NOT turn him into a cheater. He did that all by himself.

        • I could not agree more with Pearshaped. The cheating was wrong, but you were truthful before you got married and allowed him to make the most important decision of his life based upon the truth – and you were faithful to your marriage. That is the honorable and right thing to do. He simply created a justification for doing what he had already made the decision to do.

  • Bottomless pits like to make you jealous and play mind games, it’s easy kibbles.

    Once the cheater gets caught, the insecurity, or jealousy is validated. The jealous or insecure person had a gut instinct that was correct. They felt the weak boundaries and mind games and lack of honesty and what ever else the ‘jealous’ spouse was concerned about. (aware they were being fucked with on a sub conscious level).

    If a shrink asks “were you jealous and controlling?” tell them you weren’t controlling enough, and should have drawn boundaries and enforced them.. and your jealousy was your gut screaming that your spouse was a cheater.

  • Ah, that gotta GUT feeling comes into play again and again. The GUT feeling leading to your well understandable insecurity was right all along. Your GUT will never do you wrong, it is a sense that something is off and your GUT will scream and scream it at you. Unfortunately, we are all here today because we did not listen to it, tune into it. Instead, like a chump, you took your GUT and masked it with insecurity and handed to your evil husband. Your GUT was trying to help you and you handed to him. Don’t feel alone in this, that is all part of being a chump. It does not make you wrong just wronged. Your right this letter because still you doubt your GUT even in the aftermath but it stills screams to you. Sit, listen and acknowledge what your gut is telling you and you will be empowered, secure and sure. Your GUT is your angel, learn to have a trusting relationship with it.

  • I may be in the minority on this issue — but I think that FULL disclosure about any relationships prior to an agreement to be “exclusive” with a new partner is none of the new partner’s business. If a person happens to have a jealous nature, any information like this just gets filed away for future use. I have lived with control freaks (my dad and one husband) who wanted to know every detail of my life, and I refused to share with either of them. The reaction, “What are you hiding?” reflects their insecurity. When I left home, at 17, I promised myself I would never, ever live with a control freak. I watched my father bully my mother and accuse her of constant affairs through out their marriage of 40 years. When I was young, and there were 5 children in the house, my mother rarely had time for a moment to herself in the bathroom. She was a schoolteacher, and she took her children to work with her each day, dropping us off at schools in the district where she taught. She brought us home at night, and started cooking supper. She was home on the weekends, cleaning house and doing laundry. I am sure she longed for an escape, but she was a person who believed you made your bed by the choices you made, and you stayed in your own bed. It did not matter to my control freak father whether his accusations were even possible — it gave him great joy to make anyone defensive and even greater joy to hurt their feelings by his ridiculous and often obscene accusations. He felt he had a “right” to an answer to any of his questions, because he was “the boss.”

    Unfortunately, I did make a marriage error to someone who thought he could justify any of his inappropriate behavior by acting like he believed I had done something which made me “deserve” his action. The craziness of this type of argument is beyond belief. Living with someone who imagines such things, and then convolutes his/her craziness into accusations is indeed miserable. This behavior did not make me cheat, but it did make me leave. I also believe that just because I dated 3 fellows at the same time in college (they knew about each other, but I offered no excuses to any of them. We were not exclusive) does not mean you will continue to date 3 fellows if you are married. That is one of the reasons why you get married, in my opinion, so that you only have a relationship with 1 person. I actually found dating to be exhausting, and I never really liked it much. I preferred seeing 1 person at a time — I was working and going to school, and I participated in choir and drama. I barely had time to sleep — and “dates” required time and effort I didn’t really have.

    At any rate, I do not ask questions about prior relationships unless it becomes relevant when I am supposedly in an exclusive relationship. I did not join the marriage police until I realized I was being lied to. I felt entitled to investigate because of the agreement and the lies. I also do not provide information about prior relationships unless I am asked, and then I consider the reason for the question. If it is asked because the asker is nosey, I decline to answer. If there is a legitimate reason for the question, I will provide information as I choose. My past dating history is my business — not his.

    I am convinced that my errors in marriage were due to my being young, inexperienced and impatient. If I had taken the time to really get to know my “twu luvs” I probably would not have married. I was also conned. I did my best with the situations I was in, and I learned some very tough and painful lessons. In my experience, past loves are not the real reason people break up — it is lack of character and entitlement, and inability to delay gratification. The past partner was just convenient. If it was not that partner, it would be someone else, because cheaters cheat. The past partner was just quicker because of the previous investment of time. I also believe that is another reason the cheaters come back and try to wreckoncile — they know where all the good stuff is, and they miss it and want it back, and they think we are so stupid we will believe their faux apologies. Cake is good, especially if the most recent “twu luv” has dumped them and they need Cake in a hurry.

    Just my opinion — but I don’t believe anyone has a right to live in my head. My life and experience are mine — and I do not expect my partner to provide me details if I am not willing to reciprocate. It is, after all, supposed to be THE PAST. I have often been given more information than I wanted, voluntarily. I have to say that information caused me to come to conclusions that adversely affected the fledgling relationship. For instance, I do not want to hear “crazy” spouse stories on a first date. Or probably ever. If all past spouses and girlfriends are crazy, what will I be in the future? Oh yeah, the crazy one that didn’t want to see him anymore after he talked about his past relationships and himself all night. CRAZY !!!

  • My stbx of 35 years finally moved out to be with the love of his life, his hs ‘friend’. She says they dated and were in love back then and he says they were just friends. Yeah, I heard it all. You didn’t feel well. You didn’t lose weight for me. You didn’t greet me with a kiss when I got home from work. You didn’t wear skirts. You didn’t wear sexy pjs to bed (even though he wouldn’t come up from the couch), you are a nag, because of you I will be working forever, you spent all the money. But the OW hs skank: She’s so loving, she respects me, even a word can get you hard, she is not fat (but she does have a horseface- so I guess a paper bag was in order). She cooks every night and doesn’t even let me in the kitchen (as in he didn’t have to lift a finger and she did all the work- I bet she did). She doesn’t want my money- she only wants me. I am sure I can think of a thousand more ‘reasons’ why I am bad and she is ‘good’. IT’S ALL BULLSHIT. What I have learned for sure are two things he would say to me repeatedly- the only true things he ever said: (i) I (referring to himself) am a bad person and you should stay away from me; (ii) “I ( again referring to himself) have issues.” and (iii) “It’s not about you.” It’s all true- he’s a bad person, he has issues, and it was NEVER about me. I hope they fuck either other’s brains out. It’s funny (not ha-ha) how people who are so stupid can be so devious. Without me in the picture, I am sure it is not enough fun. Although he did say, after abandoning me, his son, all his friends- it’s like a ‘breath of fresh air’ and a ‘new start’. That’s great- just step over the bodies and start a new life- he gets a do over with his high school schmoopie (actually, I usually refer to her by her full name- Schmoopie Dicklips) Sorry to be crass. There is some asswipe psychologist who writes a blog and says that later in life reunions with past loves usually last because there is a ‘deep connection and longing’ and a shared history. I think this is a load of crap. It’s just two more crappy people who found each other.

  • One of the times I believe Saddam was telling half the truth was early on when he yelled at me that they were “just friends” and then said “you drove me to her, I wasn’t going to see her”. I think he left off the word “YET”. You see he’d been talking and sexting her but he had only just started going to the gym. I really think he wanted to loose a few more pounds of gut before his slimy little school teacher saw him. No worries though, she was fine with him just the way he was. LOL

  • My cheater excuses 1. You need more friends. I replied: Why so you would have more women to chose from? Wtf? 2. We couldn’t agree on vacations. Well I did all the planning for every single trip we ever took. What I got in return was drunken nights in hotel rooms, sleeping while I took kids to the hotel pool. Him taking selfies to send to ow. Not pictures of his wife, kids, family. Irritation and bitching even when in a tropical oasis that he didnt pay for. 3. Excuse 3 – you need to do something. He always resented having to be the responsible one. Took him into his 30’s before he made a salary. He hated that I wasnt working with 3 kids at home but he didnt really want to help with them either. So f**r go f**ck off!

  • If these Cheaters really had a problem with their partners, they would speak up and try to resolve the problem, not jump into an affair. If one partner is insecure (that is, chronically feeling at risk, with or without reason), then counseling might get to the root of that problem. Some people, no doubt, are insecure based on their own issues–lack of self esteem or problems rooted in the family of origin. But in most cases (I think) if a partner feels insecure, it’s likely that the relationship dynamic is way out of balance, that the insecure partner experiences things in the relationship that communicate a lack of respect, caring, and commitment.

    I’ve thought, on and off, about a post from the other day, when someone wrote about watching her H walk ahead with the a person she found out later was the AP, while she walked behind with his mother. I’m not sure who wrote that post, but I felt the pain of that experience in my gut when I read it. I imagine this loving chump not as “insecure,” but as knowing instinctively that she was looking at trouble. Then when she checks out what she feels with her H, he gaslights her. He erases her feelings.

    There’s the tell. You bring up your observation and your feelings and ask your partner to be more thoughtful or caring or respectful. And he or she doubles down and blames you for having observations and feelings about his or her behavior. Years ago, I dated a well-known public figure in my community; he was often invited out to lunch or drinks by attractive women who wanted something from him. And he was all for going on those outings. I always felt one-down; I didn’t mind friends of either gender, but lunch with this judge or that neurosurgeon or his high school sweetheart…on and on. It took a long time for me to care enough for myself to end that relationship. And it took another 20 years to dig out from a lot of other codependency and chumpdom.

    • Thanks LAJ. I posted about the walk and yes, he gaslighted, manipulated and lied to me whenever I would express my concerns, and so did she. Slut puppet can have that prize, they deserve each other. She has no idea about his harem of women and his cheating on her while he cheats on me. There twu luv will get a bit harder when she finds out the debt he is in and his horrible credit. It may take a few years for things to collapse, but they will. karma bus.

      • And no, I don’t think I was “insecure” in myself but I was feeling very insecure in “our” relationship. I felt like my marriage was in jeopardy. Pretty clear why I was feeling that way! Too bad I pick me danced for another year and let myself believe the lies.

        • Of course you were. You had reason to feel that way. Here’s to chumps learning to trust their inner voice.

  • You know, Lacking Nuts…their cheating is ALWAYS OUR FAULT.

    So yes, you made him cheat.

    How?

    I do think that women do have a sense of the undercurrents. The old flame was always in the picture…you could always sense the connection. Your husband always had feelings. Her vagina was open to him, even though she knew of the married vagina at home. Your husband dived right in.

    You did not make him do it. He did it.

  • My ex told me (initially – the reason changed. A lot.) that it was because my cat died at the beginning of our marriage and he had gone through the same with his ex wife at the beginning of their marriage…..

    He cheated on her too. Wonder who came before her with a cat?

    DAMN CATZ!!!!

    What a freaking joke.

  • They are horrible people which is why they also enjoy leaving the mother of their children with as little money as possible. In their world we were the problem, so obviously they have no obligation to do the “right thing” now.

    • Yeah, my stbx gets so mad when spousal support is brought up. He left us for his 22 y.o. coworker, moved into rented expensive house in expensive neighborhood (to have a place to park his truck – the truck he asked me to cosign and then asked for separation 2 weeks later..the truck needs an expensive house to park at..LOL..). He says he is so broke and I am trying to destroy him because I want support for our child and for the house mortgage and other bills he just skipped out on. (It’s ok that he destroyed and abandoned a family, of course) He says he’s not going to be my personal ATM. He was going to come take my car (it’s in his name but he gave it to me months ago) to show me I can’t take advantage of him! (His lying, cheating, disappearing are noble character traits, you know). He claims to care so much about our daughter – but duh you’re gonna take away our transportation to to work and school. That’ll teach me. I remember stbx telling me about a time he was speeding on the freeway on his motorcycle when young and his dad said, “That boy is fast but he’s not too bright.” That keeps popping in my head every time he does his manipulative crazy making towards me – the problem. Yep, we are the problem. And yep, they aren’t too bright.

  • It just hit me reading all of this that these cheaters are sick…ill,… nuts…… no I mean really, like DSM-V (?) nuts, certifiable.

    What makes a person truly insane? Seeing and hearing things that aren’t there? Twisted and dysfunctional thinking that is in the end nonsensical? Conflating cause and effect, reality and fantasy, right and wrong? Making harmful choices over and over? Our cheaters do all that.

    Because your intuition that they were cheating was RIGHT, it made them cheat. Whaaaaaaaaaa?!? Because the cat died they had to have that affair and destroy your marriage?!? Because you folded their underwear wrong they lead a double life for 8 years?!?

    It’s like a psychotic insisting he hears voices and they are REAL. And we sit there and argue with them. And they tell everyone WE are crazy cause we don’t hear the voices too, and plus we are mean because we tell them the voices are not real. No, sorry, the voices are not real, and you’re insane. But these conversations with the cheaters are like arguing with tthe psychotic, like they are a real stable adult and this is a real debate. Like we will convince them with just the right words.

    Our cheaters are like what I imagine a critically mentally ill psychotic would be: crazy-sounding, spewing out nonsense, beyond our reach or the reach of any real sanity on this issue (but our cheaters have a lot more agency and a lot less sympathy than a psychotic… And my apologies to those who suffer from psychosis for the comparison). Too bad they don’t make a pill to cure this kind of crazy.

    • Kelley, I honest to God thought the ex acted like he was possessed by Satan when he was involved with the whore. I mean serious demonic possession like you see on TV. I expected him to levitate, his head to start spinning around, and he’d spew green pea soup.

      • i honestly believe that the devil will test people. and i have said that i believe my husband lost his fight with the devil… i truly believe that the devil will put people in our path to test us and encourage us to stray from what is Good and RIght… i do not think it was a consequence that my husband (now ex) ran into this sewer rat troll whore while visiting and drinking at his cousins house… i do not think it was an accident that she just happen to be there over and over and each and every time my husband (now ex) went over. or that they just got along so well… you know while drinking…

        she was a test from the devil… my husband and i were going thru some hard times. i lost my daughter and my head was not on right, he was triggered by my pain and my emotional unavailability and has zero coping skills to handle it… …

        she is still dragging him lower and lower and lower…. but he cant see it. or refuses to see it or just flat out doesnt care anymore.. his leaving damn near destroyed me too, if it hadnt been for my boys, i dont think i would have made it alive…i couldnt handle the immense pain his betrayal caused me… so the devil would have won….

        i still feel bad for my ex… but it was his choice. he gave up, i did not… he still wants to act like a fool and cause problems. and there is nothing i can do about it…

        i am on my own journey now…

        • Mrs.V, you, like all of here have a pulse, thoughts, feelings and life!
          Do not own someone elses shit! Own you, love yourself.
          Nasty ugly shit had reared its head and we, dad or mom, who are committed want to repair immediately.
          No more band aides for the scraps that need air to heal. No more scab picking to make it go away. It is here, its been done, and shit moving on!
          Take care of You! Take care of your boys. You will get it back twofold in its time, but in time. Love them, polish them like fine silver. They get shinier, in time. You will shine as well.
          Everyone on CN, has and will continue to share the good, the bad and the ugly!
          I am so greatful for this site and all my aha moments, sad etc.
          This is a continuim of life lessons, and more to come.
          Stay with this and in touch with yourself. I know its hard. Very hard. Walk through this, this will be behind you. ? Hugs

    • I also have heard that some people think demonic possession is a form of undiagnosed mental illness, so who knows.

      Like Kelley, I think cheaters and affair partners are mentally ill. Delusional, psychotic, irrational, etc. They should be treated for that, not cheating. It’s just abnormal behavior all around.

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