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UBT: “I will return with a fuller love for you”

bullshitThere’s nothing like a good serving of cake to make cheaters really appreciate their chumps.

Shana submitted this gem to the Universal Bullshit Translator and says it was from an exchange of emails with her husband as he worked overseas. She asked him:

“Are you seeing someone, having sex, etc.?”

“I really appreciate the courage and strength it took for you to ask me this directly. I love you and respect you too much to lie to you even though this will hurt. Yes, I have met someone here that is important to me, and I have been together with her. The details of it really don’t matter. What matters is that I will return to you and the girls with a fuller love for you than I had when I left. You know how deeply I love the girls and how important it is for me to be in their lives. That hasn’t changed. I also still love you and it’s important to me to be in your life.”

Now to fire up the UBT…

I really appreciate the courage and strength it took for you to ask me this directly.

Busted! Fuck.

I really appreciate the courage and strength it takes for you to keep being my chump.

 I love you and respect you too much to lie to you even though this will hurt.

But I don’t love and respect you enough to not cheat on you. Really Shana, the problem here is the truth. You insist on damaging honesty, even though you KNOW those mean, ugly words take courage and strength to hear and will hurt you with their polysyllabic cadences. I blame adverbs, participles, and the Oxford comma.

Yes, I have met someone here that is important to me, and I have been together with her.

And can you fault “togetherness”?

The details of it really don’t matter.

I don’t care to tell you the details. Like if I endangered your health in any way, or got an Important Person pregnant. Such trivialities, like your basic well-being, really don’t matter.

What matters is that I will return to you and the girls with a fuller love for you than I had when I left.

What matters is my entitlement. What matters is that I return to YOU! and the kids! My primary source of kibbles! Aren’t you the lucky ones to win the wonderfulness that is ME? Sure, I may fuck around with Important People I Just Met, but I always come home to you! With deeper wells of bullshit and mindfuckery than before.

My love is fuller. Riper! It swells like a fetid pustule on my ass and bursts only for YOU.

You know how deeply I love the girls and how important it is for me to be in their lives.

You know how deeply I hate consequences and how important it is for me to avoid them. I love being in our children’s lives so much that I work overseas and fuck around on their mother. #fullerkindoflove

That hasn’t changed.

I’m still a douchebag.

I also still love you and it’s important to me to be in your life.

As an aside, I still love you how you are of use to me! It doesn’t matter if you don’t want me in your life, it’s all about what’s important to ME.

I didn’t say you are important to me. (Like the OW is Important To Me.) I said having you in MY LIFE is important to me. Doing stuff like raising my progeny, folding my underwear, and swapping out the AC filters. I need a chump so I can attend to the important work of ME-ness. You wouldn’t want to fuck that up, would you?

Shana? Fuck that up.



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  • Shana,
    Exact same script from my STBX, except he wasn’t overseas. Run, show him some honesty and do teach “the girls” that a decent man would never cheat on the mother of the children he claims to love so much.
    Chump Lady, how did you know about the AC filters???? No seriously, it is eery! 🙂

    • Saw some research this weekend that suggests men with sons stay with the mother of their children longer.

      (Not suggesting anything or failing to disclaim any other arguments. Merely reporting on a finding.)

      • Hi Ian, I saw that finding too, back in 2003, right before conceiving a girl. I’m a daughter of divorce and was furious but not entirely surprised when her father left us a few years later. Not because he was a cheater, but.

        I think it is partly to do with a) dads not being able to see their own childhood or experiences play out in the daughter, and b) the perils of trying to protect a girl from some of the societal bad that just doesn’t happen to boys. And for whatever it’s worth, some fathers aren’t equipped to deal well with girls or women or the feminine at all. Like the guys who plow through hundreds of EAs, PAs, and online relationships with them, lol.

        I’m sure something of it could be said of mothers also, and for sure we all bring our own FOO baggage and insecurities to the table. But yeah, I saw that finding back in 2003, and as a daughter whose father abandoned and never came back, I was really, really hurt by what I read. Thankfully my daughter’s dad is 100% present for her, despite having left me to myself. His love for her erases much of the pain he caused me, and I hope his influence helps her to steer clear of confused relationship choices in her future.

            • Only damned difference was my POS waited till our sons were adults before leaving.

          • Two sons, my POS waited until the kids were grown and his wife/nanny appliance had outlived her usefulness before leaving.

        • [Sorry all, I just realized my response was a total derail!]

          I agree with the RUN sentiment. Don’t let this guy shape your children’s relationship templates any further. (((HUGS)))

        • Two sons no daughters here, and my wife’s the one that cheated. Maybe it works in reverse too!

      • I had two daughters, but Hannibal didn’t leave soon enough in my eyes.

      • Yes there was an article in 1847 magazine last month about the findings. But I don’t think the conclusion was that men stay longer if they have sons — I recall it was that both men AND women are more likely to keep the marriage together for longer… not forever necessarily, just for longer (despite however ‘good’ or ‘bad’ the marriage might be) if there is a son, or more importantly that the first born isn’t a girl.

        I love 1847 and the Economist, but I thought the article made fathers come off as looking stupifyingly immature, selfish and callous — the old ‘I wanna Mini-Me! That thing over there is a baby girl, NOT a Mini-Me! That’s NOT what I WANTED. Where’s MINE?’ And it sort of suggested that mothers were emotional limpets who were willing to bite the bullet on any crappy marriage just to keep Big Man engaged with Little Man just a little bit longer. It also hypothesized that mothers were perhaps quicker to get out of bad marriages when they had girls because, it was presumed, they didn’t want to set a bad example of womanhood for their growing girls. Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. Can’t say I was wholly convinced by how worthy they were cutting out the women to be, as opposed to the men.

        This may be Chump perspective, but in answer to the why-marriages-with-girls-break-up-sooner conundrum, why didn’t they look at the distinct possibility that some mothers with daughters who start reaching a certain age and gaining new-found sexual attention from entire packs of teen boys and young men sometimes cannot resist competing with their daughters, which will lead to all sorts of shenanigans that will de-stabilise a marriage quicker than you can say Craigslist.

        • It was the Economist I believe. And yes, the picture of the father they painted was craven. They stay around because they get more emotional support.

          Again, I don’t have kids, and I sincerely hope this wasn’t triggering for anybody.

          I have one sibling, a younger sister, and my dad wouldn’t have stayed if he’d been nailed to the floor.

  • And once again, the entitlement. The grand assumption that the chump will want to take the cheater back, that after a betrayal the cheater will be allowed back into the chump’s home and daily life.

    He sounds like he thinks there was always a secret polyamory agreement in place — as in, he can be with others without telling you and you have already agreed to it. Still a douchebag, indeed.

    Maybe his very important stuff should find its way into a storage unit while he is overseas. The energy he got from all of that fuller love he has for you and the girls should help him figure out where he is going to live next.

    • or like he’s Santa, doling out relational “gifts” if Shana is a good girl (don’t want to get on the ‘naughty’ list!)

    • And yet.. isn’t that exactly why we are chumps? We do take the cheater back into our daily life. Sometimes more than once.

    • Amiisfree – Your post is spot on!! What is it with these cheaters and them thinking the betrayed spouse wants them and will always be there for them. Somehow these cheaters think they are so desirable, that we’ll hang around no matter what. He’s so convinced that Shana would take him back, like you said the entitlement. I’m SO glad Shana divorced his ass.

  • Ami, you got it right !!! I did not get it right. I ate the shit sandwich while I should have been packing his crap to go into a storage locker next to this guys crap.

    He was denying an outright affair but telling me he wanted space and time and was leaving for a trip (where he screwed Susan of Seattle) …he sat on the side of the bed reflecting that “we will likely have to get a divorce and get back together in the future” in order for things to go as he needed them to.

    Of course this assumed I would sit in a a corner and politely wait while he relived his single days then he could return at any point he chose to.

    Those are the memories that make me scream “Unicornomore!! what the fuck we you thinking!?? that people get THAT shitty and later recover and quit being that shitty?!!? NO!! That degree of shittiness is intractable and permanent!!”

    But wait I did …living on a steady diet of shit sandwiches until the Creator of the Universe had enough of his foolishness and swooped him off planet Earth for a talk.

    • I got the “I was going to return to retire with you” after his fuckfest was over. His moving out for unfettered access to kibbles was “temporary”. I was expected to sit and wait for him with supplemental kibbles.
      Of course, he’s all that and a bag of chips, don’t ya know. Still denying the affair the whole time.
      Such entitlement from such an asshat.

      Lawyered up two days later to receive a rant like no other.

      • Why do they all think of themselves so highly?! Then insult our intelligence and lie about the affair. My STBX just took a random trip to Utah. I called him out when he was telling me he is always here to work on the marriage and missed me. His response, was that he went alone and just wanted to get away (because he has been so devastated about the divorce). He actually said he went there to look at mountains. We live in Southern California and have beautiful mountains just 2 hours away in a car. He doesn’t realize I will be getting his credit cards bills during financial discovery and his words will be proven as Lies, lies, and lies!!

    • I got that too… We need to get divorced, then we can start dating again. Right.

        • Yes we should get divorced so we can both start dating….other people forever!

      • I got that line, verbatim, as well. As if I were the dog, waiting at his chair, holding his pipe & slippers until he eventually deigned to return home. Yet another reason he was a jive ass muthafugger.

        • lol @ being the dog with the pipe and slippers. Love the imagery. Yes we’re good ol’ faithful, who will always be there, waiting for them at home, no matter what disgusting and wrongful act they do. Since they believe we so incredibly want to be in their presence, we will always be there wanting them til the end of time. NOT.

    • I was told (as he was moving out) “I don’t think that you and I are finished yet, I’m sure we will get back together later”. Ummm “wrong”. Speed dialed my attorney.

      • My twatwaffle, when asked why he didn’t just file for divorce if he didn’t want to be with me and wanted to be with other women, “because I always thought you and I would end up together again”. Umm no. I filed and I am 2 months post divorce, married for 15, together for 20. He bought a house, moved his girlfriend in, she thinks she’s got herself a gem… more like a piece of glass.

        I crashed from not having the constant anxiety of what was going to happen next. I feel like a prisoner that has been set free and can finally see the sun!!

        • I felt like a prisoner that had been set free as well. Unfortunately, 19 years with him left me pretty empty. So the rebuilding and redefining of my life is the struggle now. Tuesday is coming!

          • Shana, one day at a time. Do something everyday that is for YOU, no matter how small. We tend to lose ourselves, what we want, who we are, trying to please someone that could not give two shits.

            I struggle with figuring out who I am too. Hard to think back to who we were 20 years ago. He was in half of my life, and I identified who I was based on how he treated me. I do however, find excitement in knowing that I can be whoever I want to be. Make plans with friends and stay busy.

          • Bamboozled and Shana I too feel the same, it is as if you both read my mind. I am thrilled to be done with the divorce (1 month this week!!) but I am having difficulty adjusting because my mind (and body it seems) have been in battle mode for the past 6 months. I had to call off work this weekend because I had what felt like the flu, but I know deep down it was my body giving in to the past stress and I needed the break. I’m better today, my pains are gone (especially the one in my ass called my ex) and I’m gaining ground in the “do over” that is now my life.

        • So happy for you bamboozled!! Hearing that makes me want to keep going and get my sunshine!! Reminds me of the song ” I can see clearly now the rain is gone!! It’s going to be a bright, bright sun shining day!”

          • Not this Girl my anthem is “Time for me to Fly” by Reo Speedwagon. Man i turn that song up and sing my heart out.

      • Stayin – They think they will be dictating the terms of the courtship. He was “sure” you would get back together later. Yeah, like you don’t have an opinion about this whole thing and what he says goes. You’re like a toy he can discard and pick up to play with at a later date, because he isn’t finished with the toy yet. These people are unreal.

        • Kelia, that is exactly how our daughter described how their father treated her and her brother. Like they were toys he could pick and play with when he got bored, then put down and ignore when he had other things to do, then pick up again, assuming they’d just lie there until he was interested again.

          Doing this to another adult is bad enough. To your own children is despicable.

    • Because other people are not real to them. They don’t see others (including spouses and kids) as have feelings, needs, goals of our own, and this is often exacerbated by chumps making those feelings, needs, goals of their own smaller and smaller over time.

  • When I discovered my cheater – he said to me “you don’t care about my happiness!! If you loved me, you’d care about me being happy!”

    It’s all the same with these bozos.

    • It’s fine to go “be happy”, if that is what you really want to do. You just don’t get to also be with me while you are doing it.

    • “you don’t care about my happiness!! If you loved me, you’d care about me being happy!” Such a common mindfuck from cheaters…

      A counter mindfuck I thought about and wish I had used in retrospect was along the lines of “Au contraire honey, I am divorcing you so that you will be free to find someone who shares your very inclusive definition of monogamous happiness. TTFN!”

    • HM,
      I’m sorry we have to hear their jaded version of what happy is… Mine said “don’t you ever want me to smile or laugh again.” He’s aged 10 years and I’m 500 miles away from his fucked up version of happy…all he wanted to do was watch porn and try and wear me down to have a threesome. Let him have his non English speaking whore he wanted. I can finally breath.

  • You now have a cheater on your hands. He is going to bring back the idea that cheating is way too important to give up. He will find reasons to “work out of town”, “go fishing”, “stay late for work” etc etc etc. “Gosh, this is fun! I get to have lots of sex with whomever I want and the little woman will stick around.” How about taking that email to an attorney and see if you can use it to prove abandonment. Get you financial ducks in a row and present him with a fait accompli when he shows up.

    • If you have been married over 10 years and you live in the US you can have an income on his Social Security after he dies. I know a man who left as soon as his youngest became 18 so he wouldn’t have to pay child support. The jackass became deathly ill, died, and his chump ex is living nicely on her income and his SS.

      • If you were married for more than 10 years you are entitled to a spousal benefit at retirement even if the ex-spouse is still alive.

        • This is correct. IF your ex is still alive, you get 50% of what he gets. BUT you have to wait until you are at FULL retirement age (66). I am sure of this.

          I *think* if the ex dies AND you are at least age 62, you get 100% of what he got. The details of that, I am Not sure of.

          • I was told by a SS worker you can begin collecting widow’s benefits at age 60. I am actually collecting widow’s benefits right now to the tune of about half again what I would have gotten if I would have drawn on my own account. I snicker every month as my bank account is enriched by that extra money.

            Shauna, hugs to you. I remember the trauma of D day. Ouch. Lots of good advice here. Getting rid of a cheater is not a fun trip, but OH so worth it. I’ll be keeping you in my prayers.

          • Yes, that last point is correct. If you have been married 10 years and YOU DO NOT REMARRY!!! then your social security will be half of his before he dies and 100 percent of his after he dies. If you qualify for benefits on the basis of your own earnings, you get either your benefits or the ones based on his earnings, whichever is greater … not both. It almost makes one wish they were DEAD. Gosh, that isn’t very nice. I really shouldn’t wish he was DEAD. (All caps so maybe the great one in the clouds might hear me better …)

            • If you do not remarry PRIOR to age 60 (or age 50 if you are disabled and receiving Disabled Widow’s benefits, which you can get at age 50). If you get remarried at, say, age 62 then SSA will look at benefits based on your own earnings, benefits off of ex, AND benefits off your spouse’s record and you get to take the HIGHEST.

              Source: my friend is an SSA employee and explained it to me.

            • And what if cheater pants remarries? Where does she fit into the social security equation?

              • Additional marriages of the ex-spouse are not relevant to your benefits, only your marital status (if you remarry after divorce)

            • Thanks DixieChump–I didn’t realize benefits go to 100% of his after he dies (is that true even if he remarries?).

              X is 12 years older than me, is petrified of doctors, and has made 4x what I make for years. I may have a very lucrative retirement. Anyone up for a round-the-world trip in a decade?

              • I just found out about ss benefits at a “financial workshop for divorcing woman” this past weekend. I loved hearing that! Count me in for the trip 😀

              • Keep me posted Tempest because I am in. The world won’t know what has hit it !!

          • Re: SS benefits—-I had NO idea I was eligible for ‘surviving divorced spouse benefits’ from my XH. I got an inkling of this fact from this very site and did some research immediately.

            I am happy to announce that just this month, I received my first payment of his full benefit. It is over 4 times what I would have gotten if I had remained uninformed and taken my benefits.

            It was a windfall of sorts that I am happy to attribute to just one more time CN has improved my life!

            • Fellow chumps also led me to figure out that Match Girl admitted in writing that she committed tax fraud and forgery by filing jointly without my consent and claiming injured spouse status pre-divorce.

              More rope = more spectacular hanging. I’ll use it as leverage to get my dog back. But I do relish the thought of the IRS kicking-down Match Stick’s door and carting her off to prison. For someone so smart, she’s acting like a fool (in twu lurve).

              We shall see.

              • Speaking of tax fraud, my cheater received a Financial Records Summons for his company from the IRS. Funny how that happened. 😉

              • Whaaatt? She filed jointly for 2015 without your signature or documents? That is some hubris. Match Girl must have kahunas the size of grapefruits.

                Get your dog back, Ian. (We can always kidnap him by stealth if the tax fraud angle doesn’t work. What are friends for?)

              • Well, my ex-POS filed his taxed and claimed the mortgage interest on our marital home that he no longer owned, did not pay mortgage payment and was awarded to me in the divorce settlement. He was audited and his business was audited and had to pay thousands of dollars to the IRS. KARMA! BEAUTIFUL KARMA!

              • I married a very nice man who makes a lot more than me and I gave up my “widowed head of household” tax status for love. This year he didn’t owe money for the first time in years. I “took one for the team”.

              • Ian, did you file your own return for that year with an accurate reporting? You may need to do that. Get thee to a CPA and get some solid advice in dealing with this situation.

              • @Tempest – listen, please don’t tempt me. I want my dog more than I can bear some days. If I didn’t think MG would go full-fuckturd on me, we’d be planning the mission right now.

                @HeLovesMeHeLovesMeNot & @Gonegirl – nothing like the mean nasty ol’ IRS to bring some consequences. $$$???

                @unicornnomore – That’s what people in a loving committed relationship do – sacrifice. (Or so I have been told.)

                @Linden – I just came to this realization over the weekend. And yes, I need a CPA. It’s so tempting to tip my hand, but the best revenge is served ice-cold. ❅❆❄️❄︎☃?

                @Kar marie – you know just what to say! Sounds like you got yourself some good dogs there. Hope you and yours are safe down there in the ?State.

                @AliceUnderground – I hope I can get him out too. I haven’t seen him since he was 11 months. He’s what, 18 months now. I was with him since 8 weeks. He loved the snow so much this year, and I have some adorable pictures of him. I didn’t get to be with him in the huge storm this year, and it broke my heart. She’s a bitch.

              • I can’t believe how stupid, or arrogant, some of these cheaters are that they actually put some of these things on writing. Tax fraud and admissions of adultery. They really do believe there are no rules that apply to them and are beyond not just the consequences of their spouses but the law.

              • I know, right?

                I’m seeing my lawyer this morning, so I’m catching-up on some notes.

                I actually had a tinge of concern for Match Girl once I realized what she’d done with the IRS. I do fear for her mental health and safety. And, I’m not a fan of people getting locked-the-fuck-up. It’s set me off on another round of negative emotions for sure.

                I’m really uncertain how to proceed. I was so close, so close, to texting her yesterday and asking her “what the hell?’ But of course I didn’t. No-contact is the way to the truth and the light.

                From what I gather, she has surrounded herself with cheater-apologists and her new man. They are all undoubtedly telling her… shit, I don’t know what they are telling her. Monumentally bad advice to be sure.

                It’ll work itself out, and I’ll rely on the courts. Thanks for your post, Annie.

              • I was going to make some humorous or snide remark about the twinge you felt, but I just can’t because I’ve felt it too. It’s because you have a heart and emotions and cannot turn them off because you married a bitch (or me a Fucktard). You’re a good person, and good people have a need to try and protect others from harm. But don’t. DO NOT CONTACT her.

                She is a grown woman responsible for herself and her decisions. Talk to your lawyer and let him guide you but do not, under any circumstances, be a party to talking to her about a possible crime she committed. She can turn this around and use it as you having knowledge or helping her in covering up a crime, which is itself a crime. She will drag you into it Ian and claim you knew and assisted her, just by “tipping her off.” Trust me, I do lock people up for a living. Sometimes its good people who made stupid mistakes and that makes me feel bad for them. But other times I lock up complete assholes, narcissists, and sociopaths who have no regard for other human beings and that feels great.

              • Damn. I know you’re right, Annie. Thank you. I can’t thing straight still.

                No worries. I won’t contact her. No-contact is too precious a gift to myself to ever slip, even once. Who the actual fuck did I marry?

                I’d much rather have my eyes wide open like they are now, but it’s incredibly painful.

              • And I definitely remember what you do for a living. I’m one raw nerve right now so if that came off as a slight, it was in no way intended to be. My job is to defend the rule of law too, I just can’t see it for myself right now.

          • I discovered when I filed this year that my XW claimed both our children. Our MSA states clearly that each parent claims one child and specifically which parent claims which child. I wrote to the IRS and enclosed a copy of our Agreement. XW should be hearing from the IRS any time now.

            It’s the karma bus’s little unexpected stops that give me pleasure.

            • That’s awesome, David! Their entitlement knows no bounds (and now I’m starting to suspect cheaters’ reading comprehension).

            • I’m laughing with joy for you. I’d love to see the expressions on these cheater’s faces. It would be hilarious. I prepared all the tax returns in our 28 year marriage. When 2016 tax time rolls around, he will either pay hugely or commit fraud. I suspect the later since we all know what known liars and cheats do.

  • I heard pretty much the same crap from ex as he set off into the sunset with OW.I was too important to him not to continue to be part of his life.Sadly I was so bewildered and grief stricken that I tried to be ‘friends’and maintain a level of communication with him.That was before I discovered CL.
    The so called friendship was all on his terms and led to months of my suppressing my rage,feelings of humiliation and powerlessness,a truly soul sucking experience.Shana,your ex sounds chillingly similar to mine.Do yourself a favour and shut him down ,in the interest of your own sanity and emotional well being.
    Things get better when you stop tuning into the mindfuck channel.

    • He packed his stuff and moved 3000 miles away to “work from” a town where OW was incidentally also “working from”. They lured both me and her fiance into agreeing to this arrangement. He had assured me that the affair was over and they never had sex.

      I was so high on hopium I chose to believe him.

      He lived there 18 months. Later, after he moved home, he was reflecting on his husbandly goodness and once commented to me that “I never left you”…uh except that you did. He was THAT delusional and had THAT degree of capacity to deny and contort reality.

      I still harbor fantasies of running into her in an airport and screaming “Susan of Seattle !! I havnt seen you since you were fucking my dead husband!!!”

      • I just burst out laughing because I’m a literal person with a twisted imagination. If I witnessed you running after someone in the airport saying she fucked your dead husband, I would have assumed she was a necrophilia and joined you in the chase. She would soon have a crowd chasing her past various gates with lit torches (I have no idea how we got the torches past the TSA since I can’t have even a nail file), weaving in and out of slower moving families with their carry on luggage and over-sized stroller, chanting, “Corpse Fucker! Corpse Fucker.”

        • hahahaha!!! part of this imaginary conversation was “he wasnt dead when she fucked him, although it was just as disgusting to me”.

    • I did the same, including going no contact after finding CL

  • In the language of my people: what a fuckin’ dropkick. Shana, please tell him he can shove that fuller love where the sun doesn’t shine!

  • I’m sorry that happened to you Deedee. This letter sounds carefully contrived. This man is a master manipulator who skillfully crafts arrogant emails to insure cake. Thank goodness for the UBT! Let him be the center of someone else’s universe.

  • I got something similar too, and my husband wasn’t overseas ! He needed ” time and space” to let his affair play out , but had every intention of coming home , eventually! He never factored in how I might feel about it and that I might have a choice . Just like everything else in our marriage… I was just supposed to go along with all his plans. Did he ever undersestmate me! All his stuff got packaged up into the garage in a very messy heap and retained a lawyer right away and he did everything to slow down that process for 4 years! Eventually he married the Ow, who is an histionic alcoholic, but he had no other choice. No one else wanted his 350 lb entitled self! Don’t think he’s too happy.. But I am!!! my advice is to do the same. Once the blinders are off … You will see it all, and there’s no putting them back on.

    • “He never factored in how I might feel . . . . . Did he ever underestimate me!” Same here. My cheater said on D-day “we will get through this and we will be better than ever”. I told him “Umm, no, we won’t “. I told him that if he thought I was going to stick around and let this be swept under the rug then he didn’t know anything about me after almost 30 years. I felt totally taken for granted, played for a fool and underestimated. We’re divorced now!

    • Movingon- Love it! It’s great he married the histrionic alcoholic, finally someone at his own level. It’s a nice outcome if I may say so myself. It’s unbelievable these cheaters think we’ll just go along with any of their plans, partly because they are SOOOO sure we love them and would do anything to be with them. So you see, of course they are going to speak on our behalf, in their minds we ain’t going anywhere, as in their minds, we can’t live without them. So we’ll agree to any arrangement they throw out there, until we let them know that they’re not that special and we don’t want them after all.

  • “I love you and respect you too much to lie”

    Seriously what is with cheaters and their undying love for the chumps that they just disrespected in the worst way possible? How do their actions equate to love in their tiny little pea sized brains? Nothing says I love you like exposure to an STD or blowing up your children’s lives! Gimme gimme some more of that sweet lovin!!!

    And if you call them on it, it’s like you just threw a grenade at their house. So defensive! I commented on a cheater apologist article and my comment indicated that the cheater in question did not love their spouse. I had like 50 cheater assholes attacking me and telling me I “was just assuming that the cheater didn’t love their spouse and I want everyone to be bitter and divorced!”

    Hello! Their actions do not say I love you so I don’t have to know that particular cheater or any of them for that matter. I don’t know your husband either, Shana but please run, don’t walk, to a divorce attorney because the only thing your husband loves is not giving up half of his shit and part of his pay check to child support!

    • “I love you and respect you too much to lie”

      Three lies in one sentence about not telling lies.. that’s some five star chef word salad right there.

      How about:

      “I lie too much to love you and respect you”

      • “I lie too much to love and respect you.”

        Can I get this on a t-shirt in time for Father’s Day? ‘Cuz it’s this or NOTHING!

        • Love the t-shirt idea for the perfect reconstructed sentence.

    • And of course, at other times we get the opposite side of that! It’s either ‘I love you and respect you too much to lie’, OR ‘I lied because I loved you and didn’t want to hurt you’.

      Cheater coins; they win whichever side it lands on. Until we dump them, of course ….

      • I got, “‘I lied because I loved you and didn’t want to hurt you.” And even better. Our pastor that we were in counseling with back him up on this line!

  • Millions of cheaters, millions of lies god i hate what we go through. And then the ones who wont leave us alone, like asswipe. Crush, kill, destroy. Isnt it enough theyve blown up our lives with their treachery the mind fucking contines. Even from afar. I hope every one here comes out smelling like roses and the cheaters and their him/she hoes rots in hell and have miserable lives. Lie to me, bad partner but my kids? And blames it on me! Be honest no way so much more fun to create havoc and hell. Thank god my children are all grown but dads lies hurt them too as they no the truth he used to be their hero not anymore they just think he is a sad example of a man. Hes the new hero to the whores family keeps mama from being lonely and her grown kids thought nothing their moms hero was married. What goes around comes around. Anyone who does what these cheaters do to their families is a fucking coward they cant tell or handle the truth. They are the losers. Tired of your family…get a new one…special rates…on sunday, sunday, sunday! Makes me sick we go through this shit. Thank you my rant for the day is over.

  • The colorful metaphor for his malignant kinda love is too funny: ‘it swells like a fetid pustule on my ass and only bursts for you’….that is so hilarious! Also I did notice he never said Shana was important to him, however he does insinuate she is useful to him since he wouldn’t want to lose his role as full time father figure to his daughters! Lose the two-faced fucker….he doesn’t deserve his family and his important harlot!

  • This guy sounds so much like my Cheater. He beams benevolence at you, and he is bursting with reassurance while he twists the knife. Oh, don’t worry, Shana, you are Brave to Ask, and yes, you clever girl, you got it right. But never fear! For he will be back with even more Love!

    What he really means, of course, is that when he dumps this convenient pussy overseas, who may or may not know he is married (he can tell her ANYTHING since his wife is too far away to be seen), he expects YOU to receive him with more love than ever. You should fix yourself up a little, put a bounce into your step, be thrilled that when he had Other Options, he still came home to you!

    This is code for “I am so awesome I can do whatever I want, and Shana will love me more than ever! It turns me on to think of her waiting patiently at home for me while I fuck strange pussy. If she’s lucky, I might come back once in a while and fuck her too!”

    • Overseas is a very convenient locale for strange too. My ex used to work with someone who had an affair while he was overseas. If memory serves, he was a weekend warrior of sorts with one of the guard units but every now and then he’d have to do 6 weeks of service at a time and he would go to different places, like England where he met his AP.

      Anyway, this awesome catch of a man believed “if you had sex with someone else while overseas it didn’t count as cheating because it wasn’t on American soil.” He told my ex this who pontificated about what douche bag this guy was.

      Mr. Pot won’t you say hello to the black kettle!

      • “if you had sex with someone else while overseas it didn’t count as cheating because it wasn’t on American soil.”
        That sentence is the most ridiculous thing I have EVER heard. Good Grief!!!
        Forget the cheating! If that sentence had come from my ex I’d have divorced him for the simple reason that he was a MORON with a pea for a brain.

      • I thought it was a time zone thing? As long as they cheat east of you, it doesn’t count because technically it’s in the future, and you can’t hold them accountable for what hasn’t happened yet.

  • In addition to the always accurate UBT, maybe we should develop a mirror-image machine who can take a cheater’s nonsense and turn it around on them.

    “I really appreciate the courage and strength it took for you to ask me this directly.” to:
    I really don’t appreciate the cowardice and weakness it took for you to hide the truth from me.

    “I love you and respect you too much to lie to you even though this will hurt.” to:
    I no longer love you or respect you so any pain I feel from this is purely temporary and I will be fine. Triumphant, in fact.

    “Yes, I have met someone here that is important to me, and I have been together with her.” to:
    I have met someone here who [“who” not “that” since I’m referring to a person not an object, you moron] is important to me too and I have been together with her. That someone is ME. I realize I am important. I matter and I am enough and I don’t need you or anyone else to be “together” with me.

    “The details of it really don’t matter.” to:
    The details of my decision to choose me and my kids don’t really matter.

    “What matters is that I will return to you and the girls with a fuller love for you than I had when I left.” to:
    What matters is that you will not return to me and the girls because you are full of something but it ain’t love.

    “You know how deeply I love the girls and how important it is for me to be in their lives.” to:
    I know how deeply I love the girls and how important it is for me to show them they need to know their own worth and not let someone treat them badly. If it was important for you to be in their lives you would have treated their mother with the respect she deserves.

    “That hasn’t changed. I also still love you and it’s important to me to be in your life.” to:
    Everything has changed. It’s called consequences. Thanks for the “I also still love you” afterthought but it’s too little, too late. You will be in my life as the father of my children but only as much as absolutely necessary for the sake of my daughters. That’s also called consequences.

    • The “also” gives away the game. The spousal bond should be primary in the family, the glue that knits it together. The spouses are equals and partners. If I could paint a picture of this situation, the cheater would be arm in arm with the OW, but with the OW slightly behind so she has to walk fast to keep up. The kids would be 6-7 steps behind the OW, and the chump would be 2-3 steps behind them, carrying the luggage.

      • Based on the language alone and not on the CL UBT deep knowledge of Cheater-speak.

        • I agree, he place her last amongst his list of important relationships.

    • Oh my Beth. What an absolute gem of a way to look at the craziness and fucked-up mess that cheaters create in our lives.
      Your take on this is nothing short of brilliant.
      I just love the idea of Chumps having the Mirror Image Machine together with the UBT to cut through the BS. It makes total sense looking at it this way – I am several years out and I have reached a point of meh – on occasions I still have moments of WTFhappened? – it’s almost surreal. At these times,I get stuck in my thought process of his blameshifting he threw at me (even after all these years) and I have been thinking hard at how I can change this pattern. All of a sudden, it’s like a light bulb just went on for me. In typical chump fashion, I took all the blameshifting on and I realize now that I never truly sifted through it – it just became a thought pattern and I seemed to be stuck in it. Thank you for the post.

    • This was a problem I had for SUCH a long time. Since Mr MidLife Crisis and the OW were DEEPLY entrenched in their New Age bullshit, I found all the language of self help to be so triggering, as it was the things they said to me in order to justify their behavior. But after a long time, I finally woke up to the fact that I didn’t have to take the self help crap to mean what they wanted it to mean. They talked about being “vulnerable” and “trusting” to mean I should accept their bullshit behavior and wait it out and triangulate and pick me dance. But what I realized was that if I took “trusting” to mean trusting my own instincts and values had worth, took being vulnerable to mean I should dare to stand up for myself, no matter the cost (i.e., the pain and trauma of separation and divorce and trying to imagine a new life for myself and my children), then all the advice I was getting from their self help articles that they’d send me actually made PERFECT sense. It just didn’t back what they thought it would.

      • It really bothers me how these hyenas hijack important words. “Vulnerable” doesn’t mean to make yourself a doormat and as you say “accept bullshit behavior.” “Vulnerable” is exactly the opposite of a cheater. A person who is vulnerable is open emotionally, has the capacity to feel emotions and empathize with others. Cheaters use their affairs, their triangles and their various destructive behaviors (e.g., substance abuse, hoarding, job hopping, using religion as a cudgel with which to abuse others, etc.) to avoid being vulnerable in a healthy way.

        One of the best outcomes of being chumped for me was giving up the need to be bulletproof and put on a “perfect” facade for others. That coping mechanism goes way back into my FOO days, but in the wake of betrayal, that facade cracked and then the need for it did. Being vulnerable means to accept that I am imperfect; I will make mistakes; I am still learning; I can be hurt. But the other side of that is that living in that more authentic way (not having to have the house, the clothes, the car, the job, the hair be “perfect”–as if) made sparkly, narcissistic people just disappear from my life. Poof. Gone. I am not sure why, but the corollary to vulnerability is to be selective with whom you share the deep part of yourself and I have big-time radar for cluster B types now. We learn to trust those who cherish us and behave in ways that don’t hurt us. It’s astonishing, really, that Cheaters and APs have the gall to talk about “vulnerability” and “trust” to the people they are betraying. That’s mindfuckery on a massive scale.

        • LaJ,

          This is it exactly. I let no one see inside to the real me. I was “bulletproof.” It wasn’t that I didn’t feel but that at times I felt too much and if I let others see what was inside they would exploit it. The one person who I opened up completely for exploited me beyond measure. After that, the shield was gone and it was just too damn hard to put it up again. I just didn’t care who saw what or what they thought about it. Most scampered away like mice. But the best stayed. Being vulnerable isn’t the worst thing out there. In fact, it feels honest.

  • We are never important to the cheater.

    Mine liked the social freedom our marriage provided for him, being raised as a christian who has exceptional music skills his life was all laid out for him. Marriage, kids, ministry, work. Little did I know that while I was doing all I could to make sure that his expectations were met, he was living a double life. Yet he came home every night, tucked our kids in, did all the things one expected in a marriage, prided himself on doing the laundry and putting the bins out. To all onlookers we were the perfect family.

    At night after the kids went to bed we would engage in small talk and then he would amused himself with the computer or would get on the phone and sit in the back room so I could not hear him. it would really piss me off when he would leave me to watch a movie by myself and then in the last ten minutes of the movie he would come in and want me to have a chat with him and miss the ending. If I refused to engage with him, he would get the shits and sulk. But engage or not most nights he would go to bed before me (more and more he would get up in the middle of the night but that is another post) if he was up when I went to bed I would find him sitting there rubbing ointment into is cuticles (he did it every night I shit you not) as I got changed, and as I climbed into bed he would either reach for a book or turn his light out and go to sleep. Fuck my life was empty but I was supposed to be grateful that he came home every night. Maybe that is why after d’day he just expected that routine to continue. He felt secure, while I felt empty.

    • You hit on an essential question that panicked chumps should ask: Is my life with this person empty, in terms of emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, respect, support and engagement? If not, you are in it alone anyway.

      • Summed up perfectly, LAJ! We were in it alone anyway. Yes and yes and yes and yes and yes. Why did I hang on to empty?

      • An insightful question indeed. Esp wbe X made noTtempt to fill the emptiness therefore

    • Sounds so familiar. I had forgotten about that. How I ended up alone watching that movie. Whatever the movie.

    • Mine would watch movies (ones he knew I wouldn’t like) waiting for me to go to bed. If I tried to be companionable and come watch with him, he would suddenly get extremely tired and go to bed himself. In either case, I was alone. I always thought it was pretty transparent that he could stay up til late at night every single night except when I was in the room with him … then 7:45 pm and off to bed he went.

      • Mine would stay up late watching a movie he’d seen 1000 times or a ball game. Most of the time he would fall asleep on the couch and not come to bed until the middle of the night or sometimes sleep there the whole night. Then he’d tell me that I go to bed too early for us to have sex. When I get up at 6am and work hard all day and take care of my family in the evening, I’m ready for bed at 10pm. But of course, it was my fault.

        • I honestly can not remember the last time he slept in the bed for an entire night. He would wake me up getting out of bed around midnight, every single night. And that’s if he even came to bed at all after falling asleep on the couch. I think back of all the times I’d wake up and he wasn’t in the bed and I would go downstairs and find him dead asleep on the couch with the TV blaring and all the lights on, and chumpy me would turn off the lights and TV and cover his ass up. If only I had known then….

      • We all have, Shana. All in the name of keeping the marriage together. But better is out there. Run towards it!

    • During his affair (when he spend whole evenings emailing Susan in Seattle from DC, he never came to bed with me. I begged, pleaded and implored…no matter when I went to bed, I was alone. Fast forward to him dying and I was getting ready for be just a few days in and I thought “Damn, Im used to going to bed alone already, this isnt as hard as I thought it would be”

      • Hi,
        Did your husband ask for forgiveness? I know it may a lot to ask, but I know of men who have died only to have the affair partners make a scene at the funeral. I also know of guys at funerals that sat arm in arm with the affair partner at the funeral. I could on, but I’m wondering if the thought of death resulted in a change of heart.

        • No, he lied and lied to his dying breath. His OW likely wasnt told he died until later, thier affair was pretty far underground and she was out of the industry by then. Another howorker made a point to come to his military retirement but was decent enough not to come to his funeral.

          • I’m bordering into meh (thank God), but not long ago I was really hurting over what I’d ever endure at a funeral if he died. At first I thought there wouldn’t be many people; he’s a misanthrope and has only a few true blue connections. I was one, probably the truest. Also the bluest. :/

            Then I realized he’d really gone full tilt into MLC and probably also pure sex addiction? And reading the boards and CL and other resources these past months, I’ve realized that he’d probably have a more significant turnout than I had ever imagined. Mostly women, probably a few men, and …probably several she-male hookers.

            What a massive correction that’s been for me. I couldn’t face it, even for his child.

            • Hi L7,
              He may have a huge turn out, people love a show. Ultimately if you have any responsibilities with funeral prep, shut that shit down!
              The circus can have their own memorial service.
              My ex has a huge family that would lie just to make him look good. I will not be a party to that. No way!

          • Wow, he willingly left this world maintaining his innocence? Going into the afterlife with lies not a good look, he was a special kind of cheat. Hopefully now you are finding comfort in being able to build a new life. He on the other hand can’t lie to the One who knows all and his fate is forever set.
            Hoes will be hoes and now that your ex is dead they are just used up old hoes. My ex had a LTR with a woman who wanted a kid. She wasted her last fertile years with a man who used her and is embarrassed to let anyone know of her.
            If Susan was so great he would have wanted to spend his last moments with her. Instead he denied her existence. No lasting love stories there.

            • “Wow, he willingly left this world maintaining his innocence? Going into the afterlife with lies not a good look, he was a special kind of cheat.”

              yes, which is quite a consideration in that he was a life long Catholic who ostensibly believed in Purgatory. I am, rather sure that he confessed his sins to a Priest and saw the sin as gone, but without amends and contrition to who you sinned against, there remains temporal results of sin. He lied to me and never admitted to any sex at all. Had he cleaned out his stuff better, I might have continued to believe his lies, but those lies led me to ask his mentor who dished on the other affairs.

              Im not sure how Purgatory works, but Im thinking he might have had a ringside view of me finding the crap he had left behind…so in a place where his heart could be pure and he likely found abounding love for me (I went to daily Mass to pray for his soul for 7 years) , he could have been witness to me finding things HE created that left me believing that he was a disordered selfish asshole.

              I found an old hard drive in the storage room of our basement…fired that puppy up and found an anger management worksheet where he wrote “I never loved my wife”. Found a notebook from a long ago work conference and in the corner of an obscure page was a phone number (it was OWs)…I am sure he never ever thought I would find this stuff or figure out where the pieces fit.

              One of my hopes is that OW thinks of him as her great lost love…the one she cant even tell anyone about, the one she weeps for at night alone.

  • I’ld like to know their (cheaters) reaction if we (chumps) answer something like : “I really appreciate your honesty. Indeed I took the “courage ” to ask you that question, because I’m living a similar experience: I met someone that is important to me. Nevertheless you and our family are and always will be the most important things of my life. Now I know you can fully understand my feelings. ..”

    • Note that the cheater never, ever said that the wife and kids were “most important,” just that it was important for HIM to be in THEIR lives. Not even that they would be in HIS.

    • At any time when he wasn’t cheating, I’m sure my ex would have FREAKED if he’d found out I was cheating too, or even was close to it. But when he was eating cake? He would have LOVED to find out I was involved with somebody else. It would doubly get him off the hook; confirm that ‘everybody cheats’ and therefore what he did wasn’t so bad, and reduce any tiny bit of residual guilt he might have about abandoning me.

      That’s why I think ‘revenge affairs’ are a really bad idea. ‘Revenge leaving their asses’? That’s great!!

      • I did this once, countered his constant EAs and online cheating with a very short-lived and torrid retaliatory PA. First he called me everything you would call a cheater. Nevermind that it was the pot calling the kettle black.

        Then he said he was really happy for me, and felt relieved that I had someone else.

        TOTAL BACKFIRE. NEVER use this tactic, even as a lie, to get back at the cheater. They ultimately don’t care and it changes nothing for the good; in fact, in my case, it made things much worse for my own heart, and just gave open excuse for him to do as he pleased, just as he’d been doing.

        I do get some small satisfaction that four years later, even while he now lives with some new OW and “loves” her, he is still pissed at me about what I did that one time. But I really wish that instead of countering his cheating with my own experiment, I had just left, cut and dry.

      • One time I did meet someone I was attracted to. The ex egged me on to have an affair, but in the end I declined, because 1) the other person was also married and I’m not that type of person, and 2) I knew it would be impossible to put that genie back in the bottle. Ex wanted me to get involved with someone else so all his subterranean affairs could be brought to the surface. I didn’t bite, but I do look back now and wonder at myself. If one of the reasons you don’t have an affair is because your partner will then get the greenlight to fuck around all he wants, isn’t that a clear sign you’re in the wrong relationship? But I had small kids at home, and thought my desire for an affair was simply a wake-up call for us to reinvest in each other. What a chump I was.

      • They are manipulative in strange ways. Mine tried to convince me to have an affair twice–once after he “re-committed” to the marriage after his affair with gradwhore 8 years prior to D-day (I didn’t know he’d had an affair at that time, only that he had initially asked for a divorce and changed his mind), and again after D-day when he thought my having an affair would make me more likely to forgive him. I declined both times because that is not who I am.

        8 years prior, though, he warned me that my feelings for him would change if I kept screwing the same person. So he knew the danger to the marriage of cheating, acknowledged it, still kept up his serial cheating, and then had the audacity after D-day to claim that we “merely grew apart,” and that I had 50% responsibility for the demise of the marriage. SMH; these blameshifters will say anything to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.

        Thankfully, I stopped expecting rationality or fairness from him.

        • He used a variety of methods to rationalize his actions and one of them was convincing himself that I had affairs also. I had shared with him that a guy at work was flirting with me and one day I had to work a 16 hour shift…He really thought I had worked a 12 hr shift with 4 hours of howorker sex after. He apparently thought that for YEARS and used it as an excuse numerous times.

          At Dday, he said “well you had an affair with that lab guy ” and I think he fully expected me to fess up and admit it. My response was “that guy tempted me, but I never did anything because doing so was a terrible idea. You cant fault me for temptation, its up and down the road everywhere you go”.

          I think it was shocking when he faced the reality that I had been a faithful spouse while he used invented affairs I never had to justify his betrayals.

    • I’ld like to know their (cheaters) reaction if we (chumps) answer something like : “I really appreciate your honesty. Indeed I took the “courage ” to ask you that question, because I’m living a similar experience: I met someone that is important to me. Nevertheless you and our family are and always will be the most important things of my life. Now I know you can fully understand my feelings. ..”

      This is genius and hilarious! The only problem with it is that it would only cause an “ah-ha” moment if one was dealing with another normal human being. These cheater idiots would either use it as a green light for their reprehensible behavior or they really wouldn’t care at all.

  • Here’s another far less entertaining translation:

    “Ugh, busted. Now I have to deal with your ‘feelings.’ Yeah, I’m cheating, and I’m enjoying the fuck out of it. But it’s none of your business, and you’ll still be waiting for me when I get home, so deal with it and get over it. I still hold the adored daddy card. I’ll deal with you when I get home, and you’d better not make a big deal out of this when I do.”

    Big hugs to you. You don’t deserve this.

    • Haha, Free Vixen, good one, that’s exactly what he meant to say. This son of the bitch is scary!

  • Striking absence of empathy. Striking absence of remorse. Stinks of entitlement.

  • “The details of it really don’t matter.”

    This is another way of saying the cheater does not want to take a hard look at what he did. His discomfort of actually naming it trumps the chumps discomfort of imagining all sorts of horror because she is not in the know.

      • Thanks, Tempest! I was doing some doodling on my phone and came up with this “branding” image. Glad someone else likes it, too.

  • Dear Shana,
    Read what CL wrote: FUCK THAT UP.

    I represent people (legally) on death row and who have long federal drug sentences. When it does not involve my own dumb ass when I am in luv (I was with a cheating meth addict) I have developed prickly arm hair skills…i.e…..I can spot scary people from time to time.

    That email scares me. Your husband…..he is speaking to you like he is a King and you will be waiting on the tarmac with white rose petals for his return, even if he fucked 1000 whores and gave them your savings account passcode.

    ***His revolting self righteous tone and flowery language….while describing how he is disemboweling you…it reminds me of Hannibal Lecter***

    He will eat your liver with a nice Chianti and fava beans.

    It is chilling. Pack up all his belongings and put them in a storage. Charge a full year rental to his credit card (FIGURE IT OUT).

    Go full no contact. Give him some taste of that mind fuck. Not to get him back, but to save your sanity. Believe it.

    Shana…you do not want to know any more details. I know you THINK you do…but it is only this:

    Hire the best connected, blue blood, plays Golf with the Judges lawyer you can find and-


    If he wants updates on the children…he can find out through his lawyer.

    That man has lost his goddamn mind or he is a sociopath. Either way….your life has now irrevocably changed. (I am sorry…I know).

    Don’t waste time trying to analyze why, or how or who or what. Read this site and unpack what it means. It means that you cannot be with a cheater, if you want a shred of dignity or happiness.

    Abandon all hope for this freak and get started. Get a loan, get in your savings and hire the lawyer this week (interview several to find the best one).

    Not only does he suck…he scares the hell out of me.

    He belongs in a cage. Proceed with care and caution.

    (((HUGS))) Sending you strength.

    • Sabine, I thought the same thing. He could be dangerous. I think, if she has time, she could get him almost totally out of the picture. Even if they split custody 50/50 there is no way his entitled ass is going to do the dad routine for long. I don’t buy one thing he says as truth. He just wants her to shut up until he can get home and screw her financially. She needs a lawyer ASAP.

    • I would love to hear it. I was not being dramatic. When I was reading his email, I felt nauseated and unsettled.

      He is bludgeoning her with a lead pipe and reading Shakespeare Sonnets to her.

      Maybe I will be a celibate nun….only half joking.

      Maybe me and the dogs will just have a fat, peaceful life with no “mans.”

      My mother and I were at a restaurant the other day and we saw a “couple” eat for one hour and never speak and the woman had the look of someone bound in the bowels of Tehran prison. I thought…being alone…maybe not so bad after all.

      • As a friend of mine used to say, nothing is better than some things.

    • SS, I felt it too. My stomach tightened and I also thought of Hanibal Lecter. (I have also spent some time in criminal court-hmmm) The ease at which he shames her, takes her for granted and sweet talks all at the same time feels horrifying. The problem is so many of us learn how to ignore our instincts in these frog boil relationships that they don’t feel right or send us the wrong direction. It’s only after we go No Contact and work on ourselves that we begin to recover those instincts.

      So, since your instincts may not be kicking, Shana, let us tell you, RUN!!!!!

      The only thing fuller when he returns will be his ego and his sense of entitlement. He is not entitled to your life.

      • Frog Boil-brilliant! That is what is is, AllOutof Kibbles!

        I was actually asking people (prepare to know the depth of a TRUE MORON)

        “Now….is it wrong to ask him not to smoke meth in my house? Am I being too uptight?
        Do I have a right to ask him NOT to show up at my house high?”

        So high that he would bring me breakfast and gifts (always arriving at 6AM???) set the breakfast down, and I would nervously eat alone, and would watch him tweak around my house, picking up objects, his pupils dilating, acting like a freak.

        I was serious when I asked that question. Let that sink in. I have never had a speeding ticket, and this moron was bringing illegal drugs in my home. An amount the size of your small pinkie nail is usually a mandatory 5 year sentence.

        I still have moments where I think..what did I do wrong?

        He actually said to me:

        “You hurt my feeling by running me off so much.”

        He would show up at my home, HIGH ON METH, I would ask him to leave. When he left, he would cheat on me with meth whores

        AND THIS IS MY FAULT. He said, verbatim: YOU DROVE ME TO IT.

        When we are in in, we can’t see it. My friends would look at me with pity when I would want to analyze it.

        Hmmm…cheating meth addict? Not much there to explore, Dummy. Meth addicts are actually clinically insane. I was trying to please an insane person.

        Shana…let us see for you. As KB22 sensed “lunatic” and implored: RUN!!!
        Anyone who would write you that email is as scary as a meth addict, or worse.

        I am sorry this has happened to you.

      • I ran! I appreciate the insights though. I never saw him as scary, probably because in the moment I was completely and utterly devastated, but I can see it now.

    • So true. This guy is way beyond narcissistic, he has all the characteristics of a psychopath. While I have been extremely annoyed or disgusted by some of the UBT letters, this particular one made me queasy. Shana should count her blessings he is out of the country. She can get a head start on severing all ties with this lunatic.

    • Wow: something still has not activated in my mind yet. I’m distressed that many of you are seeing Hannibal Lecter level psychopathy in that letter, where I just translated it as garden variety cheater speak and fairly well written, if plainly cagey. I usually write off letters like those as “denial” “asshole” “liar” “hiding something”. It never occurs to me “psychopathic” or “dangerous” unless X, whose language is technically impeccable, has said something truly garbled or mangled.

      SabineSavoy, thank you for making it clearer and from the perspective of dealing with this character type professionally. I hope what you and others have said here *sinks in* for me, because I realize now that this particular thing — the language — was my worst blind spot.

      (Not in the case of the dating profile I discovered this year, though. It blew my mind, how transparently he identifies and presents himself as a psychopath. AND STILL GETS DATES. I’d never seen text like this from him, and once I did, I got that this man was openly dangerous. So that was progress. Seeing your assessments of UBT subject today, I hope will bring greater progress, and soon.)

      Shana, I am so sorry you’re going through this. Please definitely cut it off at the knees, as soon as you can. You deserve to be free of this, and safe. Not just from psychopathy, but from ANY continued hurt. I’m glad your letter was shared today, and thank you.

      • It’s that other people aren’t real to him. He talks about “being in their lives” but not about what his role will be, other than “being” there. It’s the spouse is someone he wants in his life but there is not one word about her needs, her feelings. It’s that he talks about betrayal like he talks about changing ties. There is no affect here, just language gauged to keep her on the hopium while he plays overseas. It seems like that he will ditch the OW when he returns, then come home to wife and kids and start looking for the next AP.

        • Lucky,
          I wonder if you were steeped in so much bullshit with your X, that you just became immune to bullshit. Because you are sharp as a box of needles. You became so normalized to it, that your limbic system just burned out, like Christmas tree lights used too many times.

          I imagine…the first time you found A BIG LIE..your heart was pounding, your mouth went dry…your brain was kicking into Fight or Flight mode. Your body was shouting RUN! RUN! RUN! and your adrenal glands were pumping. And then, each time your X was caught in more lies, and you did not obey your body, it just finally said: Okay, no more warnings.

          This is fascinating. When I was first with Maggot as adults (he was my 5th-8th grade crush/puppy love) …..I would just burst into tears. We would be driving, or in bed, and I would just start to cry uncontrollably. My therapist said (and I agree) that my body was telling me

          PAY ATTENTION!!! This person’s actions are not matching his words!!! SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!

          But I was so immersed in fantasy, lust and probably some type of real love, that I brushed it off as emotions, hormones or me being a dramatic clown.

          Think about it like this: Cheating is a willful act to DECEIVE someone. No different than Bernie Madoff or the guy who steals a Snickers from the 7/11, just degrees.

          A smile hiding a dagger.

          A hug hiding a cleaver.

          A kiss hiding a .357 Magnum.

          Cheating is serious business. I think that is why we are so drawn to CL. She does not whitewash it.

          It kills you.

          • This ^^ perfect!!! My therapist told me that my tolerance for bullshit is way to high and we have to work on that. My body always felt off, I always felt off balance. After the divorce and more discovery, my body shut down, it was all just too much.

            It’s a detox of sorts, I’m exhausted all the time now, I think it’s part of not being in fight or flight ALL day, EVERY day in a constant state of HIGH ALERT, that I can finally relax.

            • Bamboozled–go get your TSH levels checked to see if your thyroid has decreased its efficiency.

              The emotional abuse before D-day had me feeling exhausted all the time, and the 2-hour sleep nights after D-day didn’t help. It wasn’t just psychological–turns out the stress had triggered an autoimmune system response, and my TSH levels were too high. The ramifications of betrayal include physical symptoms, too.

              • Tempest, thank you for that. I actually am on thyroid meds, but it didn’t dawn on me to see if they could up it. I also have an autoimmune kidney disease, endometriosis and fibromyalgia. Right now I’m on the low end of normal with the thyroid meds and I do best mid range. Actually have an appt. Friday. Thanks for that, it was a very helpful reminder!!!

                I’m curious to see if in a year my body can handle things better and feel better just from getting dumbass out of my life. I’m sure it hasn’t hurt anything!

          • SabineSavoy, your comment about the box of needles made me cry. I went six years loving this weird man who never could acknowledge my smarts beyond admitting — usually after a paid expert or the harem of support gave him the same truth I gave — “You were right” “You’re usually right” or “You’re always right”. I didn’t have any need to be right, and it would have been nice to hear just once that I was sharp like you’ve said, or, also, taxed and overused and burned out by the antics, like you’ve also said. But I guess that is asking far too much from these types.

            I am still sitting with what you and other commenters have said today, but wanted to acknowledge that I’ve seen your words (all) and they’ve touched me deeply. Thank you.

        • As far as him ditching the OW when he gets home, I don’t buy that. He is going to be sweetness and light so he can escape financially unscathed. I learned the hard way…Gasp!…..CHEATERS LIE CONSTANTLY.

          He might have 10 other women. He might be a with a man. He may be buying a home in Belgium. Shana is now in the terrible position where she cannot believe anything…..ANYTHING…this cockroach says.

          Shana- that is why a BOARD CERTIFIED FAMILY LAWYER is the person who can sort out his lies. NOT YOU. It is too much pain.

          • Anyone (men as well as women) leaving an abusive relationship,

            Please, please, please be careful. The most dangerous time is right after you leave an abusive relationship. If you are afraid, you can (in most states) file for an order of protection through family court without a police report or criminal charges. Your local domestic violence shelter has a hotline and they can provide you information on how to make a plan for leaving. Also, some states have a system in place for DV where you may register with the state and all mail goes through a central processing system so that you use that address on everything so that where you live is confidential. I suggest anyone in a violent or potentially violent relationship call their local police department and ask to speak to the “victim’s advocate.” They are your best resource for rights within your state and access to the Crime Victim Compensation through the National Center for Victims of Crime (which DV qualifies in certain cases). Some states also made DV victims a protected class, which means you may not lose your job, housing, etc., because you need to make court dates for protection orders, or the person throws a rock through a window, etc. In some states you may also legally break leases if you are a DV victim and need to move.

            There are many resources out there it’s just a matter of knowing where to start, which usually start with a good Family Court lawyer, police victim’s advocate, or shelter hotline.

            • Thank you, Annie.

              I am just today realizing I will need to avail myself of some of the DV resources. Better safe than sorry with these malignant narcissists.

              November 16th turned out to be a very good day to gain a life!

              Rage on, friend.

      • His screed is almost perfect. By my reckoning he missed one comma.

  • My cheater said this kind of stuff, too, of course. Must be in the Cheater Playbook. During Affair #1, he told his mother ‘don’t worry mom, I’m not leaving her’, and she had to tell him it would be more likely I would leave him When he told me that, I asked what he thought he was doing. His reply was ‘I was happier (while eating cake), and because I was happier, I could be a better father and husband!’.

    O.M.G. They believe what they want to believe because they want to believe it. And they’re entitled to believe it! We’re so mean to question their logic!!

    • Ah yea, the classic “I’m happy sneaking and telling lies, so it makes me a better person and the world around me benefits.. especially the folks I’m lying to and sneaking away from” That’s on page one of the cheater handbook. If they are happy, how can anyone be upset?

      • I got that BS too! A popular “male only” book pushes the “Put yourself first! If you don’t take care of yourself, you will not be able to take care of anybody else!”

        Well, well. Quickly leads to entitled thinking…. Very small jump to “If I can’t be HAPPY, I can’t make anyone else happy.” Thus, “I get to do what makes me happy FIRST.”
        Cheater logic. Comes with the new math…

        • Ha, that wouldn’t be “Don’t Be Nice, Be Real” by Kelly Bryson, would it? My god, how fast our tanking marriage hit the bottom after the ex started reading that book and tried to get me to read it, too. I read a little bit and had to stop because it was making me sick to my stomach. It did make fun fodder for hilarity at my knitting circle, however.

    • KarenE, mine said that everything in our marriage was great except for the sex so he thought he’d get his needs filled from that perspective outside our marriage. I know now that was him simply justifying being a serial cheater. Of course when I didn’t buy into that, his tune changed and I was this horrible person that drove him to cheat. Such entitled liars.

      • I agree 100%

        I went on a date after the first D Day. This D Day was murky to my raped mind, and full of bull shit spackle and I was in shock. (Like real shock).

        So, I went on this date as anesthesia to the misery I was in. (What else do you do when the love of your life is living in motels with a meth whore…BUT THEY ARE NOT HAVING SEX, he says).

        This DUMB ASS says to me over our calamari…You have to ask yourself…why did he cheat? What were you not providing?

        He meant sex.

        This was my date meant to assuage my pain!

        I said, You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He has to sew his pants shut to keep me out of there. I LOVED having sex with him. He seemed to love it too. We were like teenagers. I was a sex machine.

        Lesson: ***I DO NOT BELIEVE CHEATING IS ABOUT SEX.*** Or the lack of sex, or the lack of kink or weight or looks or what kind of nightgown you wear to bed.

        I think it is about cheaters being fucking selfish shit asses who have the impulse control and ethics of a pack of hyenas at a fresh kill. ( I feel okay with the hyena analogy. Innocent animals, but they eat their weaker siblings in the den).

        • Agreed. Maybe to “normal, sane” persons who are too ethical or moral to consider cheating, it’s hard to believe anyone would ever cheat without some sort of neglect or provocation from the betrayed partner.

          But if you ask me, cheating is about the cheater’s inability to say no to opportunity (another way of saying “poor impulse control”), and about the adrenaline high of strange, with the added adrenaline high of secrecy. And oh: those amazing unimaginable fireworks of drama, if/when they get found out.

          I am laughing just now, because, who the f*** even are those people. What a way to live. Like constantly being electrocuted.

        • This is where reading more about Dr. Simon’s research into Cluster B personality disorders can help chumps involved with someone understand that, regardless of how awesome or not-awesome we are, someone with a true personality disorder of this type comes to a point in relationships where they can’t sustain the facade required for them to appear “normal.” It’s not just selfishness; it’s that other people are fundamentally “appliances” to them.

          • It is true. When I first started my therapy for Pathological Relationships, I thought my therapist was over the top (if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.)

            But with all my homework and checklists, I realized that the Maggot is a Cluster B sociopath. I don’t say that glibly. I erred on the side of extreme caution when we were doing the Hare checklist, and all of my worksheets. She said, “I have never had someone score so high”. Talking about Maggot.

            It helped me, some, because it is just like you wrote well, “LovedAJackAss” (hee hee) he could not sustain the facade.

            I have not heard from him since June 2 (you can see I am still not Meh) and I believe he feels a sense of relief that he can just be his drug fiend baboon self and not have to pretend with me. He can just get down and dirty in the ditch, be high and fuck around with women who will crawl on the floor for a hit.

            He has a trust fund that most of us would be so happy to have 1/100 of, and it keeps him protected from real consequences of his constant desire to be high and be around scum bags.

            Here is a grotesque, sociopathic snapshot of the first inklings something was terribly wrong.

            We went to check on his parents graves (the ones he drove to an early death with all of his drug use and related consequences). This was my idea (what a bitch I was!).

            As we cleaned off the graves, and I put some little Poinsettias out for Christmas, he was overcome with the “SADS.”

            He KNEW he should be crying…talking about how horribly he treated his parents (he did) and how they set him up for life. And he talked and he even squinched his face so the tears would come…they never did. The tears never came. I checked again in the car and his handsome face was a dry as cardboard.

            Was it an act…trying to muster up some emotion for his hardworking, dead but clueless parents?

            I don’t know. I almost think he KNEW he should feel SOMETHING, but as CL said, I don’t think those synapses fire.

            Robert Hare wrote: They know the words to the song but not the melody. They do not have normal emotions of empathy, compassion or even love.

            They mimic, pretend, mime and act…but if I pulled back the mask and peered in his head…I think I might see a howling black hole of nothingness.

            I was having an intense, life consuming relationship with a cardboard cut out. It is deeply sad.

          • Mmm. These folks fancy themselves far more interesting than they are. Mine figured he’d do sex outside because for some inexplicable reason with two children under 3 and both of us working and him being a lazy ass ,our sex life was not porn level. He would use that sex to fill in the gaps. Fast forward four years he is leaving but he wants us to keep having sex cause you know it was always good…fuck that.

        • Ex father-in-law also thought the marriage must have gone south because I wasn’t putting out. If only he knew.

    • Samesame. “It makes me a better husband to sneak around with her.” No, no it does not. Scoreboard, I knew something shifty was going on. That’s how I caught you, you ignorant motherfucker.

  • Shana – use this time with him being oversees to get your ducks in a row, file and change the locks. He lost the right to come home to you and the girls when his penis fell into togetherness with this OW’s vagina. Cheating is a choice.

    I travel frequently for work, both overseas and domestically. Throughout my marriage, I managed to make it up to my hotel room alone every single night. Shocking? No. I was married. I was faithful. I protected my family and myself.

    Mr. Sparkles, my STBX, goes on ONE overnight business trip and couldn’t help being amazed that a beautiful woman in hotel bar in Atlanta found him attractive and ALMOST seduced him (his story being they got as far as her hotel room and then he left her there. (Um… I don’t think so.)

    You and the girls ALREADY LIVE FULLY without him… they’re used to him NOT BEING THERE. Just keep it going.

    Be strong. Be their role model of a chump who will NOT accept his infidelities and mindfucking minimizations.

    He will not change. He’s too wonderful (in his own mind).

    • Excellent points ICanSeeTheMehComing!

      Shana, finding out that our spouse did not respect us enough to do the honorable thing (whether that means stay faithful or divorce before starting a new relationship) is on the of the most painful thing a chump can go through.

      Use him being abroad and his entitlement against him!

      Gather as much evidence as possible via email about the details of his affair. He is so stupid to put all this in writing, please give him more rope. Whether it is to bring adultery charge forward if you live in a fault state or to have proof of what is going on in his own words to show your girls when they are old enough to ask questions, please use his own entitlement against him. Email him questions, using a lens of wanting to understand him, what that means for the future of your girls. Don’t package these questions in any way that makes it look like you are willing to reconcile. Instead tell him how helpful this will be for you to understand what you are dealing with, how to process the pain, or know how to move forward. The more you get him to open up about the details, the more his entitlement will push him to put it all in writing, and give you as much proof you need as possible.

      At the same time, secure a lawyer that specializes in high conflict personalities, and work with your lawyer to put all your ducks in a row while he is abroad, and then hit him with the divorce papers when you have done everything here that will benefit your daughters and you.

      This is going to hurt like crazy, but I am glad you found CN early in this process, we are here to help, forge on Shana!

      • And get evidence that he used even a cent of marital funds to support his affair. Good advice big time.

      • That is an absolutely BRILLIANT plan….I used one much the same, with my own entitled idiot.
        It helped me to keep my purpose, and helped me not to falter as I made my escape!

  • ‘It’s important to me to be in your life’ = I will be in your life (cheating, Duh!) and keep you out of the dating pool! You are the Wife Appliance, and so you have value to me, lucky you! So, I will do just enough to lock you in, and dazzle you with bullshit, so you won’t leave me, OK?

    • I got something similar – “I want us to be friends. I want to be the first person you call when something good happens in your life.”

      Translation – I want to know when something good happens to you so I can 1) take advantage of it and you 2) tell everyone that we’re friends so I retain my image (what I did must not have been bad if she’s still friends with me) 3) point out all the negatives to whatever good happened to you so I can continue to erode your self esteem.

      Needless to say, I said ‘hell no’ to being friends with him.

      • Got the “friends” thing too… “It’s my greatest hope that we can one day be friends”. Yeah, I had “hope” once too on our wedding day. Now my hope is to get the best settlement I can, tell him to kiss my ass, and ride off into the sunset with real friends.

      • Mine WAS the first person I texted after something good happened to me–as soon as the judge stamped the divorce papers, I let my X know it was official. ; )

      • During a strained conversation about the problems are children were having during our divorce, Crapweasel leaned back and blithely said that he “couldn’t wait for things to normalize once the divorce was final”.
        Hmm. A case of magical thinking, perhaps? In any case, I am no contact.

      • Byebyecheater, sounds exactly like asswipe. He wants to be best friends and hang out and catch up. Barf, puke, vomit! Told him you fired me from caring i dont want to hear about your sad how many women can i fuck before i die life and when you fired me my life became none of your fucking business asshole and no matter how many times i state this he just says i dont mean it and we will be best friends cause he feels he can talk to me about his love life problems. Motherfucker!!!!!! where were you to talk to me when our life was being blown up. He wants me to talk to him if im having man problems! One ive no desire to date and when and if i ever do if wont be for marriage or living together. Uh uh! Not this girl not no more and what the hell makes him think i would EVER ask him for relationship advice when he sucks at it. He cant even maintain a great relationship with his own kids whores kids yeah his kids no. What the fuck is wrong with these effing people!!! Arrrggghhhh!

  • Shana ask
    “Are you seeing someone, having sex, etc.?”
    and he deflects
    “Yes, I have met someone here that is important to me, and I have been together with her.”


    ” What matters is that I will return to you and the girls with a fuller love for you than I had when I left. You know how deeply I love the girls and how important it is for me to be in their lives. That hasn’t changed. I also still love you and it’s important to me to be in your life.”

    In other words “Yes I’ve been sleeping around, found a new strange that I sex on the regular. Please don’t divorce me, take half my shit and force me to pay child support.”

    If you’ll notice he mentions his love for you last on his list of relationships.

  • “What really matters is that I will return to you and the girls with a fuller love for you than I had when I left.”

    In response, I believe I would have to say something to the effect that, “No dear, what REALLY matters is that when you return you and your ‘fuller love’ will be living at a different address, your belongings will be in storage, you will find me divorcing you, and you will be visiting the girls the first third and fifth weekends each month and paying child support. I love and respect you too much to lie about what’s going to happen.”

  • Great translation by CL. He will not return with a fuller love. Maybe with fuller STDs or other diseases, but certainly not fuller love. It’s highly likely, he’ll return with the FULL intention of dumping his wife for the OW. It’s just a matter of time. If I were you, I’d gut punch that sucker by divorcing his ass asap with the FULLER love for yourself and your children.

  • I think we are all being kind of hard on this obviously sophisticated and evolved guy. He was considerate and respectful enough to provide his wife (who by the way he “also” loves as a complete throwaway after thought) with a very nice documentary confession. Take advantage of his continued time out of the house … pack that sucker up and see a lawyer!!!

  • Dear UBT,

    My goodness, you are getting more snarky by the day. Your polysyllabic vocabulary never ceases to impress, and your hashtag haranguing is second to none.

    While I could have done without the gag-inducing image of a “fetid pustule on my ass” to go with my coffee-break, I’ll let it slide because you get me. You really get me.



    p.s. where exactly does the UBT stand on the Oxford/serial comma debate?

    p.p.s. Shana – fuck *him* up!!!

      • And rightly so. An example to illustrate the need for the Oxford Comma:

        Cheater Rupert found himself in bed with his co-worker, a dominatrix and a vegetarian.
        Cheater Rupert found himself in bed with his co-worker, a dominatrix, and a vegetarian.

        Without the Oxford comma, we would suspect Rupert of perhaps only bedding one person (a co-worker who was also a dominatrix and a vegetarian). And, of course, that is what Rupert would claim if his wife found his text messages. But Rupert was really in bed with 3 separate people (which he will, of course, deny).

        • That’s pure greatness! Dear God. Please give me one hour of my life when I’m as clever as Tempest.

        • Tempest, as a great fan of the Oxford comma, and of chump snark, I hail you!!!

          • UBT, stop – I can’t handle the funny. Serial cheaters. ?

            That Rupert sounds like a dirty bird.

        • I, too, am deeply enamoured with your beautiful mind, Tempest! Thanks for the guffaw.

        • Brilliant example! Funnier than the classic one in favour of the serial comma, supposedly from a book dedication: “I’d like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God.” Book must have been written by a cheater, thinking they were the child of God, and worshipping libertarianism.

  • Same thing here…. he travelled all over with her while I was raising the kids and yes changing the air filters… doing the grunt work while he was out having a grand old time across the globe. Was so sorry once I found out. Said if I took him back that I had to go gentle on him because he was fragile! What about me? You don’t think I would have loved all those vacations? Fragile? That did it. Lawyered up and boy did he turn on me. Now he is the Disneyland dad and his AP thinks he’s such a good father.

    Please DO NOT PUT YOUR LIFE ON HOLD any longer. You’re back home raising his kids while he travels the globe with his schmoopie? Seriously divorce his ass. You have the advantage of the home field too. Move on. You will still be doing most of the grunt work but at least you will be free to find your own life. It was hard but I am much happier now. You deserve better.

    This entire letter makes me want to vomit.

    Hoping you keep us posted….

    • Fragile! What an ass! Ive got miss easton here she dont do fragile. Not to maim terriblely just fuck him up alittle. When my first husband let my toddler play with cocaine and then he beat me for saying something about it well miss easton and i took care of it and that asshole never put his hands on me again. I will never condone violence but we do have to protect ourselves one conversation with miss easton and a mild conversation at that kept him at bay! Miss easton and a german shepherd are a girls best friend. After my youngest son found out asswipe beat up his whore and choked her unconsious said son told dad you fucked up dad big time with mom (big time) i love you your my dad but you ever put your hands on mom and i will fuck you up! Asswipe has never touched me that way not in 30 years but the whore has sustained a few beatings maybe she likes it she apologises to him for making him hit her. Sick duo me thinks yes. My daughter and my youngest have threatened him with bodily violence and banishmwnt from their lives if he even raises a voice to me. They both told him you fucked up everything dad not her leave her be. Will never come to that he knows unlike whore juice id put him in jail in a ny minute. Gotta love my kids! Only shows me they listened to some of what i said. Makes a mom proud.

  • My ex SHOVED his dating profile in my face and wrote In a letter ( buried in the computer because he didn’t have the balls to give it to me ) that he would go live on the other side of the house, stay married to me, pay my bills but live his own life. How about – give me my half and get the fuck out?!!!!

    • My X never admitted to the cheating but made the same “offer” of a sham marriage where we would continue to share separate bedrooms and have a “sexless” marriage in which he would continue to support me. He followed that with an article about how sexless marriages are more common than people think and that he would be willing to make that “sacrifice” if it would make me happy, i.e. if it would shut me up and make me keep being a chumpy doormat.

      I said nothing and kept quietly line up my ducks until I could leave (after which he reiterated the above proposal, only with us living in separate houses instead of separate bedrooms). Shana, you have the upper hand of being able to line up your ducks while he’s thousands of miles away instead of on the other side of the house–I hope you take advantage of it!

    • Wendy – Your ex definitely lost his mind to think you or anyone else in their right mind would agree to that kind of arrangement. Like you’re a possession, not a human being. How about he keep you in the basement of your home while he’s at it, in total darkness, chained to a chair and feed you when he pleases. And during that time, he’ll go off pork his OW. It’s unfrigging believable.

    • What is it with these morons? Skankboy tried the same thing….asswipe!

      • They fear court-ordered child support payments reducing their income. They fear dividing assets and giving anything up (material things being a fossilized form of ego kibbles). They fear the APs getting ideas about marriage. They fear losing the triangle of having a spouse plus an AP. They fear people finding out that the marriage broke up because they have poor character. They are not willing to give up a potential stable supply of ego kibbles.They want CAKE over here, cake over there.

        • To add. We were two years into a 30 year mortgage. House incomplete.he offers to occupy the master room while kids and I occupied the rest. …no.

  • “I really appreciate the courage and strength it took for you to ask me this directly” because I obviously did not have the balls to tell you about it without you asking first. This guy is a gemstone.

    • I know right?! I thought the same thing, he had absolutely no balls to tell her, yet he’s sitting in his ivory tower, telling her it took such strength and courage to ask him directly. I picture him as a disheveled haired professor that is clueless about anything in real life, sitting in huge leather chair, with a thick glasses, coffee stains on his shirt, and a thick jacket, preaching righteousness to others. Whatever dude, you need a reality check.

      • I imagined he was pissed she put two and two together and had the nerve to ask. He’s going to make her pay for her uppitiness. Daring to question him. His Cheshire cat tone …I can just picture a smarmy face.

  • I got “My relationship with her makes me a better man for you.” “I am not so frustrated and angry with you when she’s in my life.” Really? Well, I am.

    And from all our friends, “Well, he’s not going to leave you for her. I know she’s in love with her husband. She’s not going to steal him from you.” Oh, great, that makes it okay, then! Jesus Christ.

    • Allie, what do you say to your friends, “Oh please let her steal him, he’s such a prize” Those two definitely deserve each other and you need new friends, I think those old friends are broken.

      • ‘I think those old friends are broken.” Laughing out loud all alone here! You guys slay me!

      • Yes, I got rid of the friends, too. They argued that it was “courtly love” (yeah, because that worked out so well for Lancelot and Guinevere!) and that as long as neither of them were going to leave their spouses, they were fine sneaking around. I was like, why are we having this conversation? Is there a table of cheating here? Cheating where they want to leave is worse than cheating where they want to stay? What about extenuating circumstances, like my pregnancy? What about them both being married? Is that better or worse than cheating if only one of them is married? Give me a break. This romantcization of cheating based on a system where you never got to choose who you married and could never leave (like Guinevere.) They can all go off and live happily ever after in their morally relativist hippie new age cult.

        And the idea that they come back and we’re so LUCKY. All hail the prodigal son. If you love something let it go, and if it comes back to you, it’s yours forever. No, no, just go.

        I put my foot down. He “came back.” And I discovered I didn’t want him anymore.

        • And there’s always this version of that “set it free” adage:

          set them free

          –and no comments from you, IanD, about my ultra violence ; ).

          • or the poor grammar in the ecard (see my adherence to Oxford commas, above)

    • A spouse is not a big-screen TV. A spouse can’t be “stolen.” A spouse makes choices.

    • It’s hard to believe what comes out of their mouths. What’s even more hard to believe is that they believe it!

    • Imagine the pressure I had after discovering my then-H’s affair with a grad student 8 years earlier (I found his notes preparing for the sexual harassment hearing when someone had finally reported him for it). I was told it was “romantic” that he had strayed from the course and then “come back” to the marriage. Proof of his undying love for me.

      Thank goodness I divorced him anyway because most of my remaining D-days came after the divorce was final and people started spilling details of his other escapades. And thank you, Ashley Madison hackers!!

  • I have decided that in the future, if any man I am involved expresses ANY interest in any other woman, I am gone. Done. Finished. This means secret texts, meetings, emails, phone calls. Anything. If it has to be kept a secret, I am done.

    If I am told any shit referencing he thinks he is not happy, wants to see what’s out there, might have made a mistake, so and so is cute, sexy, interesting, blah, blah, blah, I’m done. Any of these things tell you they are “looking” for someone else, even if they aren’t actively pursuing another person. I don’t need that. You don’t need that.

    • I agree Anita. And shouldn’t this be the basic standard. That once someone is committed to you, they don’t express any interest in other women? Sigh that we can’t even expect what is normal…

    • I was at the gym shortly after I kicked Cheater Ex out. I was on the elliptical, and I just happened to scan the workout space around me as I was exercising, and all of the sudden, it hit me… there were handsome men everywhere! For 18 years, I didn’t even notice other men. I had wonderful male friends, coworkers, acquaintances, etc., but I just didn’t see them as “men” because I wasn’t looking! A light bulb went off for me.

      • Last year I joined a sports league (that is something I always wanted to do, going back to 5th grade). I was looking around yesterday and thinking that in a year I’ve met many interesting people, male and female, some of whom are now becoming (work in progress, going slow) good friends. Once we start doing the things that make us happy and stop focusing our mental and emotional energy on a Cheater Black Hole, the world opens up.

        • LAJ – ‘Once we start doing the things that make us happy and stop focusing our mental and emotional energy on a Cheater Black Hole, the world opens up.’

          I have just found this out. Since I went n/c 12 days ago and counting, after a 35 yr marriage and a 2 yr aftermath of selling the house, I finally see this Cheater Black Hole I was sucked in to all those years.
          When it’s finally over – indeed, when both the skinny and fat women sing and you see it is FINALLY over, the entire world opens up to you. I’ve been amazed what it’s like now that I’m totally free of him.
          He occupied my mind far too many years.

    • ANITA
      I love what you wrote. I am so with you.


      One whiff of someone trying to triangulate us…a SCINTILLA of that bullshit… and they can go suck dick in the Tenderloin (I know that was crude).

  • Shanna should reply, That’s such a coincidence because I’ve met someone since you’ve been gone too. We’re together all the time and he’s also going to make everything so much better between you and I. It’s my lawyer.

  • “I will return with a fuller love for you.”

    All I can picture is a parasitic tick that gorges on blood to the point of bursting. There’s your ‘fuller love,’ Shana. Run.

  • This is what I experienced. STBX met OW overseas and then spent months arranging another job overseas so he could test out being single from the comfort of his marriage. While I dealt with all the “reality” back home. When OW’s sister wrote to me about their affair, he told me that I should have just let him do what he was going to do and then come home.

    Shana, don’t get caught up in this game. As long as he has the job overseas he will keep doing this. Cut your losses now, while he feels guilty and is caught off guard. That letter is nothing but an attempt to manipulate you while he regroups. You have the proof, don’t condone his actions by getting back together with him.

    • THIS! “So he could test out being single from the comfort of his marriage.” Thanks, Janus!

    • He was planning on relocating us. He was actually going to take me over there to live! He talked about how amazing our life will be over there, blah, blah, blah..when all the while he just wanted to have me over there with him while it was easier to be with her as well. He didn’t want to divorce me, he wanted both. He’s out of my life for good!

      • As a military spouse who moved a lot, I know more than I want to about how much you lose when you move. The idea that any cheater compels his chump to move to make his cheating easier make me genuinely ill.

        Nowdeadcheater tried to get me to move to Seattle (home of Susan who farts rainbows) or to SF where Susan Rainbowfarter worked. In the past I had been a very supportive compliant wife and I lived where I was told but post DDay, I refused. He tried avery threat and ploy and I just refused.

        It is years later and I still think that him trying to use my devotion to get me to give up my life to facilitate his cheating was a betrayal as bad as crazymonkeysex.

  • Shana, you start ASAP downloading every financial document you have, document the squandering of “marital asset’s” spent while “working “overseas. Is he a consultant? Is he paid by an employer? Access, Access EVERYTHING! and start downloading phone bills in PDF format on a separate computer as far back as you can go, change passwords and put in an extra layer of security available by carriers. Don’t know what made you ask the Fucker, is she a Ho-Worker, same company etc. What ever the reason now is the time to act fast. If your reeling from the blow of the truth have a trusted friend or family member sit with you and help you document every iota of evidence. Best of luck to you.

    • Hey! I’ve divorced him now. I asked because he had done it to me before, so inside I suspected it. When I got that email, the first thing I did was cash all his stocks and took control of the money. Fortunately, I took care of all our finances and since he didn’t think I would find out, he didn’t think to do anything with the money beforehand, so I did.

  • Shana, you DO have courage and strength to ask him directly. His alleged “appreciation” of it is irrelevant.

    Of course, you should never have to be put in a situation to have to ask such a question, but that’s his fault, not yours.

    I wish you the best in getting away from this egocentric asshole.

  • I too had a travelling cheater on work expenses. Double life in another country, mind fuck at home. Best thing I did was to act fast. Turned out he’d already moved our joint savings into an account in his own name. I think his plan a was to wait it out and hope I died of the cancer so he’d keep the money but plan b was to just move overseas and take the cash with him, leaving me destitute. Those plans didn’t work out for him and I divorced him before he had time to think of a plan c.

    • This is plain evil. The person who should look out for you, is the one out to destroy and even kill you. It just baffles my mind.

  • I’ll add to PTBarnum’s post. Pull a credit report on him. My ex had 3 credit cards with sky high balances that I knew nothing about. If you can get statements on any credit cards showing charges on them, cash withdrawals, hotels, flowers and gifts (that you didn’t get), do it. Start checking around for secret bank accounts…are there large sums of money going out from a joint account that you can’t account for? He might have a secret bank account.

    Do it now and fast.

    • Fortunately, I took care of all the finances. He wasn’t that clever. I think he figured I wasn’t that clever that I would find out. The minute I found out, I cashed in all his stock options and took control of all the money. I gave him his share because of my values, but I made sure I had control of it. He wasn’t happy, but oh well, neither was I.

    • Ayup. The ex had run up $14,000 on a credit card that I was authorized to use, but which I never did use so I didn’t check the statements. It came up on my credit report and was pulling down my score, so I had it removed. My credit was good and clean when I bought a new place to live; his is deep in a hole.

  • Hey everyone, I am the chump who was unlucky enough to be married to this guy. Sadly, this was the second discovery for me in my 18 year marriage to this gem. The first time, it was years, with multiple women, and yes, I took him back and was all in to fixing the train wreck because he seemed truly remorseful. But I’m happy to report, after this email, I was pretty certain I was done. However, when he returned home, while crying remorse, I considered in my serious chumpdom, taking him back. However, when he said to me after I asked if he was still talking to her, “I don’t know why you are so mad, I never said I was going to stop seeing her.” it was clear what I was going to do. I said some less than nice things to him, told him to get out of my house and I divorced him. Thanks Chump Lady for translating this for me. I got a good laugh and it was so true. I’m so glad I found you and your book. It has been life changing. I facilitate a support group for chumps and a number of the members have ordered and are reading it.

    • I just love a happy ending … for chumps!! You are fabulous … he was an idiot to not realize it. I bet he does now.

    • Good for you, Shana. These cheaters – take them back and they just cheat again. A truly remorseful cheater is truly a unicorn.

    • I truly cannot make sense of his justification. Like I cannot follow the logic. I know there is none. after all he is a cheat but they usually try to make their crap smell kosher. What is he up to now? Still farting rainbows?

  • Busted. FUCK! Indeed.

    What a complete fuckwad, cockwomble, wankstain of an excuse for … I don’t even know what. Get thee to a lawyer, Shana!

    • Whoops! Just read Shana’s comment above, d’oh! Bloody marvellous, Shana – love it!

  • Find a damned good lawyer and lawyer up. You’ve go it in writing my dear. Get out while he’s gone!

  • Shana,
    I wish you had told us right away you were away from him…I was truly worried for you! No fooling.

    Regarding finances and betrayal-

    I had a female boss who whose husband used their Paypal account (THAT SHE PUT MONEY IN FROM HER PAYCHECK) to support another woman in England for two years. He worked in the Middle East and had an entirely separate secret life.

    He used to abusively berate my boss for shopping if she bought some knick knacks, and he was spending about $2K per month supporting this bar slag.

    I reached out to a truly exceptional family lawyer (the initial retainer is 50K, but they essentially become financial assassins for you in a divorce) and they agreed to take her case. A friend of mine used the same firm when his wife disappeared with their son to Beirut and they got the child back. These cats mean business. She could have obliterated him and GAINED A LIFE.

    He sent one dozen roses, one time, confessed and she took him back. They are still together, and this high level lawyer spends most of her days playing Sherlock, frantically looking at his Linked IN accounts, his Fake book page (that was not a typo) and exploding at him in anger when he decides to call her once a week from Dubai.

    I cannot process it.
    Otherwise, she is intellectually bright, but on this issue, you just want to shake her.

    • Truthfully, I didn’t realize this would get posted publicly. I am new to the website and I thought it would be interesting to have it translated for me but thought I’d get an email. If I had of known, I would have mentioned that I divorced him already.

      I wish I would have had all of you in the beginning though. It would have been nice to know the translation then. Also to know some of the legal advice. I didn’t get a lawyer. I tried to do a settlement the nice way, and there are areas I got screwed. Live and learn.

  • The real issue is, as Tracy has said in the title of her book, gaining a life. As long as women are focusd on how toxic the guy is/has been/might be, they are not gaining a life. They are enmeshing themselves in their negative emotions. “”Your husband’s infidelity should shock you into a very important realization. He is not your be-all and end-all. He is not the sole purpose of your life. You need to find a way to be complete in yourself, rather than needing him (or any other person) to feel complete. It is important to be able to gain happiness and fulfillment from activities that are not dependent on your husband. This is true for any relationship. If you were to leave your husband and make a new relationship, you still do not want to have a relationship based on need, so that you only feel complete with that person. You want to relate to the other person from a position of strength rather than from a needy feeling of being incomplete. That is how mature relationships can develop.” C. J. Grace, from her book Adulterer’s Wife; HOw to Thrive Whether You stay or Not.”

    • That’s actually pretty insulting to chumps. Yes, some of us have make our cheater spouses into our ‘be-all and end-all’, and feel like we are incomplete without a partner.

      But many, like myself, were single and fine when we met the cheater, and other than the pain of betrayal and grief of the loss of so many things we thought we had in our relationship with the cheater, we are single and fine afterwards as well.

      When I kicked out cheater narc I was in a lot of pain, but I knew I would be fine. I have two jobs I love and where my work is highly respected, I have always been able to support myself, I have a great relationship with several family members and multiple long-time friendships. I have always had a healthy relationship with my kids, and a balanced life. He on the other hand, had to move to another city to start all over again (funnily, just what he had done before I met him, but I didn’t realize it), so it wouldn’t look fishy that he has no friends, little-to-no relationship with his (healthier) family members (only his mom actually has a relationship with him), and his (our) kids can barely tolerate any time with him. That and his constantly changing jobs ….

      The fact is, cheaters are often really really good at hooking people in, and really good at taking advantage of the chump’s good qualities to keep them in. Until they can’t anymore. Often the chump has ‘issues’ they need to look at for themselves, but often, in order to be healthier and happier, all the chump has to do is get rid of the cheater.

      It’s still fun and interesting to figure out what the heck happened, though! And the mean stuff the cheater did still stings.

      • I agree KarenE–I was a complete person before marrying Hannibal Lecher, remained a full person (despite his efforts to squash me) during the marriage, and am a full person now. And I think it’s natural to focus on how toxic the cheaters were for a long time afterwards. Wrapping one’s head around the depth of their derangement is a good way to disengage from them (which is the ultimate goals). That “wrapping one’s head around” takes time–often years–and we rush it at our own peril.

        • Agreeing 100% with the need or intermittent compulsion to review the cheater’s bad behaviors. So many incidents remain WTF moments for me and I’m the type who needs to identify and understand where my intuition took a back seat. As a woman I’ve lived by it, and somehow this time I just sailed past MANY red flags, endured the wrongs, and made up some excuse as to what was really going on there.

          Once upon a time in another life, I was involved with a similar level of wrong, and after a decade or more and a lot of therapy, I finally sorted out that it was a choice driven by a preceding trauma (unconsciously it was “safer” to be with a straw man than alone) and also :S because unbeknownst to me at the time, I was pregnant.

          This time I don’t exactly have a good physiological explanation for it, except the sex was heady and awesome. But now I know that’s enough to override a woman’s (or man’s) good sense.

          For anyone still shuddering through the aftermath, try EMDR therapy. That proved a goldmine of safety and healing for me and worth every cent.

          In short, I think it’s critical for survivors — at least those of a certain type, like me — to be able to see and name specifically what happened and what was done, and also, what was lost. As much as we have in common here, each person has their own unique loss, and every one of them is deep and hard to the heart.

          Yes we have to let go and live fully again. But don’t force your healing. Take it sensibly and sensitively and each day you’ll find yourself arriving closer to happy, until finally, you just are.

    • Diane, the idea that men and women need to be independent and not let another be so important flies in the face of biology. We are pack animals. We don’t do well when we are completely alone. We might not be in a committed relationship(i.e. marriage) but we are certainly committed to parents, siblings, children, and friends. When we put our trust in another we are open to anguish should something happen to our bond. I certainly think both sexes should be able to provide for themselves financially so that if the need arises they can manage. In that respect financial independence is important but many couple choose to have one parent stay home. In my opinion if a person cheats and then hides assets to keep from dividing them and to avoid child support they should do serious time for a felony.

      • Let Go – ‘In my opinion if a person cheats and then hides assets to keep from dividing them and to avoid child support they should do serious time for a felon.’

        I SO wish! X stole a 1/4mm dollars from me overnight.
        I caught him! HA.

        How is this different from robbing a bank?

        He got a slap on the wrist in divorce court.

  • Shana thAt letter is the best evidence. No “marriage police” no detectives fees etc. print like 10 copies and rent a safety box @t a bank . while he is traveling start making copies of everything. Tell him you will pick him at the airport and have someone with the divorce papers waiting instead. I am still a chump waiting to my finance to get better but if that is not a problem for you! Fly like an eagle.!! It is mentally draining & everyday some sort of a f”&$% up memory comes to your mind. I can not see myself the next 20 or 30 yrs living with a pain inside me.

  • Someone kill my hope please. My husband says the exact same thing. He needs the affair to end before he can focus on his marriage with ‘fuller love’. So he’s been having an affair for two years trying to make a decision. And I’m still hoping for the OW to go away so he can focus on his family again. I know I’m a super chump.

    • Alexa, I’m sorry to hear that your married to an asshole. But I’m very glad you’ve found Chump Lady and Chump Nation. Get the book, read all the archives and comments here, and gather your strength. Most importantly actually observe your cheater’s behaviour; that is NOT love. It was opening my eyes and putting down the spackle that freed me.

    • Alexa, supposedly he chose you when he married you. He shouldn’t get a do-over without a divorce, a financial settlement for you and the kids, and child support, if that applies. Having an affair won’t make your husband love you more; in fact, in order to conduct the affair, he has to devalue you and over-value the AP. And even if this AP goes away, the world is full of people he can hook up with. You are deep in the middle of the pick-me dance. He’s got a great triangle going, cake on all sides for him. And nothing for you. Nobody but you can kill your hope that a man capable of carrying on a two-year affair while you wait around for it to end is going to magically start to love you and respect you as he should. The real question is why he’s so special that he gets to have an affair while you live in agony.

      • Alexa – Here’s a fucking arrow to fill that Hope-ium. >>>>>>>>>>>>-0! Blast head off.
        (ok, I’m not good at graphics)

        You said – ‘He needs the affair to end before he can focus on his marriage with ‘fuller love’. So he’s been having an affair for two years trying to make a decision.’

        This is very hard to read, and the fact you are putting up with it. For.Two.Fucking.Years.
        I just want to shake you. Sorry, I want to shake you and pour cold water on your head and get you out of your coma.

        When did you feel it was ever okay to be 2nd best to your husband?
        Have you always been second to his needs?
        I have a feeling you have allowed yourself to be Plan B for quite awhile.

        I seriously do not understand this because, the minute I had full knowledge of the hyena’s *love that word* antics, I got so angry that he would ever consider me to be second-best. How dare the asshole! He thought he was better than me? ME? No, I don’t think so. Who thinks they are better than any other person? Narcs, that’s who. When he came waltzing in after THEY spent a weekend in MY personal motorhome, playing Johnny Be Good on his air-guitar as he waltzed in . . and I didn’t have a clue where he was for 3 days over Labor Day….well, it’s was plain weird. And, got weirder and weirder. Looking back, all that dancing he was doing after another tryst with her, all makes sense now. And, it’s putrid thinking about it.

        I would have been lost without ChumpLady – seriously lost.
        Glad I glammed on immediately and never looked back.

        I was NEVER going to wait around for him to decide which side of the cage he was trapped in, to be released in the wild to the one who wanted him.
        (his words were, he felt like a tiny animal trapped in a bad cage)

        Well, I sure wiped that damn smirk off his face when I kicked him to curb, very suddenly, and served him divorce papers a few days later.
        I kept it all secret and I just cherished the fact he was no longer singing and dancing to Johhny Fucking Be Good! Asshole.

        Now, I’m sure he’s moaning a Leonard Cohen song..


    • Alexa, I stuck around through four years of him failing at a PA and resuscitating it every time news of that woman went through his office or he saw her at the annual so-and-so business conference week. It never got better; it hurt more, every year.

      Choose you. You’re worth it. I know it may feel inconceivable, but you have better life ahead without him in it. (((HUGS)))

      • I know all that but my heart still loves him. He is finally showing remorse. The OW is on her way out. I know it’s horrible. This is the man who left me just before Xmas to go live with her.. but the hopium pipe is so strong and he really wants his old life back. And I want it back too.. but CL does make sense. This site is making me stronger. But it is so hard.

        • Alexa, the hard part is accepting that your old life is ALREADY GONE. The you that trusted, the him that (maybe) deserved trust – gone. That great feeling that you are a team facing life, that you have each others’ backs – gone. Your ability to feel deeply immersed in the amazing experience of truly mutual and loving sex – gone. Your knowing you are the most important person in the world to him, as he is to you – gone. Your confidence that he thinks of his kids in every important decision he makes – gone.

          It’s all already gone. And it’s NOT coming back. Because anybody who could do that to you FOR TWO YEARS is perfectly capable of doing it again, down the track. (And you know how I know that, right?)

  • While I was at work today I found out that my husband took our kids swimming with his nineteen year old coworker and most likely OW. You know, the one he has great chemistry with, goes to Comic-Con stuff with, and who loves to bake for him? And of course I wasn’t allowed to say more than, “Great! I’m glad y’all got to have fun!” Or I would have been labeled delusionally jealous. Meanwhile my stomach was in positive knots for the rest of the afternoon. Until I got home and found them all beet red and miserable. Apparently, in his rare bout of trying to look like he ever actually does anything with the kids, he forgot the obvious necessity of sunscreen. Yeah, I’ve had to baby the kids a lot tonight, but it gives me petulant satisfaction to know that in his attempt to look like father of the year to his hunny boo boo, he’s now wincing around at work the shade of a tomato.

    • One night last year, I dreamt I discovered X with an OW who had always been posed as “a golf playing lesbian”. I took her out immediately in the dream and then turned on him, with some dull edged object, and skinned him right on top of the scalp. Satisfying!

      Most of all because in the dream, I knew he would have to go into the office with all his young shiny EAs, wearing a middle aged bald spot, for as long as it took for his hair to grow back in.

      That’s what your sunburn story reminds me of. I’m sorry your kids are uncomfortable tonight, but I’m GLAD *HE* is, too.

    • There are about 5 deal breakers in your post, Chumpiest–from the Comic-Con outings and the baking to your concern about being labelled “delusional jealous.” It’s not delusional to be jealous if your spouse is having an affair–or flirting around the edges of one with a 19-year old co-worker (and thus endangering his job). But if I were married to a man who took the kids to the pool with that teenager, that would be the end. You deserve a way better life than this.

  • I realize this is off the point, but to this day i cannot hear the word “important” without a shiver of revulsion running down my spine. The day I accused XH (correctly, it seems) of having something going on with AP, he told me (incorrectly) that he had already told me that he had feelings for her (Umm, I’m pretty sure I’d REMEMBER if my husband confessed to having feelings for another woman) and that she was (gulp) “important” to him. The kicker was how his voice cracked, with the sheer emotion, on the word “important.”

    Like Tempest, I too am triggered these days. It seems the IRS has taken some interest in XH’s business finances so I am once again dragged into the morass of his irresponsibility, flippancy and complete lack of accountability for anything. I am on the verge of paying the fine myself just to be rid of him, once and for all. My therapist has advised against it, feels it’s important I don’t continue to pay (and pay and pay) for him, but I do not ever want to see his name or phone number pop up on my computer or phone again (we have no kids).

    “Important.” And you, wife, what are you? Chopped liver. FTG.

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