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Dear Chump Lady, Apparently I am “spiteful”

deservekarmaDear Chump Lady,

So we finally divorced in January. Now ex wants to change child support and custody. He is making less so I am fine with support change, but nothing has changed with custody so I don’t agree to this. I talked to my lawyer and he said “I still seem to have spite towards my ex.”


Seriously. I am happy, grateful to be free, moving on and my lawyer says I have spite.

I don’t believe I am spiteful. Ex still rages and rants and refuses to pay for anything. I hold him accountable to the divorce decree. I am not willing to be flexible just because he wants it. I did that in our marriage and what did that get me? I have nothing left to give this worthless man.

So, if I am spiteful. Okay. I’ll embrace it. I have never asked for more, never changed the agreement, even refused alimony because I want nothing from him. I don’t respond to ex except by email. He should be happy with his affair partner. He should be moving on, but he enjoys being the victim far too much.

My youngest turns 18 in just four years. We will battle the entire time, something we never did in our marriage.

He needs to blame someone and I am that person. Everything is my fault in his mind.

Fine. Ex doesn’t like me, I’m okay with that. He is my ex. I am no longer a pleaser. I have found my value and worth.

Old me would have worried what he thought of me, what my lawyer said, how to resolve the conflict.

Now, I can only control me. How I react and respond is on me. And if others think I have spite, well I think that I’m entitled. Savings depleted, Noel Biderman, $20,000 unknown credit card debt, affair, betrayal. Yet, I can smile and be grateful for my divorce. I want and deserve more. And, I will still hold ex accountable to the divorce decree. Nothing more.

So I will hold my head up, smile and embrace my being “spiteful”.

Thank you Chump Lady for supporting chumps who need to believe I don’t have to play “nice.” I will be fair, but you have lost “nice” the second you lost my trust and respect.


Chump Free (and spiteful)

Dear Chump Free,

Fire your lawyer. Seriously. This minute, DUMP his ass.

You don’t pay upwards of $200 a hour to be called “spiteful.” Unless you’re leaving out some major details in this letter, like you napalmed your ex’s perennial beds or set fire to his Suburu, I fail to see how saying no to a custody change — nine months after the divorce decree — is “spiteful.”

It’s one thing for a lawyer to give you advice you don’t want to hear — “Hey, I know you don’t think it’s fair, but the court is probably not going to see it that way…” It’s quite another to name call and make value judgements about one’s client.

I’m sure you paid a shitload of money for that divorce decree and now this fuckwit wants to change the terms? You’re already conceding to LESS support. You gave. That makes you spiteful HOW? As your youngest is 14 years old, isn’t she old enough to weigh in on the custody arrangement? I would think the court would concede to her wishes. Does your lawyer think you’re guilty of parental alienation or something?

We are bound to respect the terms of our divorce and custody agreements, however much they suck. Too bad your ex didn’t get that memo. He’s entitled to whatever time he gets. You’re obliged to facilitate those visits. But this needs to be a two-way street (which of course it often isn’t with fuckwits).

I will still hold ex accountable to the divorce decree. Nothing more.

Well, yes. That’s why he’s trying to change the decree — because he can’t change you.

Disordered types often try to punish their ex’s in court. They get secondary gain from it. I don’t know if that’s your situation (talk to me in four years and tell me how many times you got sued… we can go start a support group or something…) but it sure could be heading that way. Which is why you need to FIRE YOUR LAWYER AND GET A NEW ONE.

You need a lawyer who has your back, who is experienced dealing with “high-conflict” individuals (check out those Bill Eddy books in the Resources section here), and who will FIGHT for you.

Friendly conscious uncoupling is not on the table here. You’ve been defrauded, why would it be? It’s a lovely ideal and maybe it works with people who are divorcing for banal reasons like “we got bored and wandered away from each other,” but it does not work with fuckwits. People in high-conflict divorces are divorcing cons, addicts, untreated psychotics, and flaming personality disorders, among other horrors. Just because the system wants to slather “play nice” all over that shit doesn’t make it workable.

You aren’t spiteful — you’re lucid. You know what you’re dealing with. Apparently your lawyer does not. Get a new lawyer.

And keep on with that mightiness!

Ask Chump Lady

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        • Given the level of incompetance your lawyer has exhibited, I have to wonder about his general competance throughout your divorce. I would get another lawyer ASAP A chupacabra with fangs. If your ex wants to re-open the decree, doesn’t that give you the ability open up the whole mugilla. First new attorney, review decree and then inform jerkface of the changes you will want. See what he says then.

    • It sounds to me you DO care what your attorney thinks! STOP IT RIGHT NOW!!!
      You spent thousands of dollars to construct your agreement. Don’t spend thousands more trying to change it to make your cheater EX-husband satisfied.
      I didn’t listen to my instincts and kept my worthless lawyer for 10 months and 60K later. She neither gave me direction or proactive advice. She was a scribe, Period! Thank Goodness I was smart enough to workout some sort of a good deal. Too bad I was emotionally dump and whipped to have lost thousands for not kicking her to the curb in this BS game of divorce. Divorce attorneys have a racket going on. Their billing methods should be illegal!

      p.s. I suspect you are a wonderful, nice and caring individual who wouldn’t hurt a flea like most of the woman on this site. But, we have been pushed into battle of the worst kind bc it is against the one for which we committed love for better or worse. To me, “SPITEFUL” is another word for “ARMOR OF BATTLE”! Stand firm sister friend.

    • I relate to this a lot. My ex is a divorce attorney (great) and I was just too tired and too broke to lawyer up like I needed. He purposely wrote our divorce decree in a way that he did not have to refinance his car out of my name and no other lawyer friends who looked over the decree caught the error. I’m self employed. My personal credit = business credit. Because of how much he has screwed over my credit, I can’t even refinance my own car out of his name without losing all of the payments this past year, paying a down payment, and having a higher interest rate and monthly payment than before. F*** him. I hate when I’m discussing that with someone and get the stupid response of “you really need to go to counseling for that. You sound angry and spiteful.” I am angry but only when I deal with him and he screws me over thousands of dollars and is basically affecting my way of providing for my children with his irresponsibility on an ongoing basis. When I don’t have to see or talk to him, life is beautiful. I have new hobbies, amazing friends, my kids get the individual attention they’ve deserved for so long. I have dreams and goals and my life isn’t stressful anymore… except when he’s in it trying to force shit sandwiches on everyone. Sincerely, equally spiteful.

  • Chump free,
    You are awesome. Your lawyer is a misogynistic arsewipe. I agree with Chumplady, get rid of him.

    I don’t have children with STBX, but we have started the settlement process (he lawyered up, so I lawyered up). In Australia we have to wait one year and one day before we can get divorced, which is about the eighth circle of hell. My STBX is just like yours, I am not playing nice, so I got a text message from him stating he wanted to pick up his coffee machine on Father’s Day (First Sunday in September). We split on the 11th January, he moved into the spare bedroom and stayed another 9 weeks (I had to push him to get out). Plenty of time to remove everything.

    The worst thing you can do to one of these disordered freaks is carry on quite happily with your life, drives them nuts. By the way, I was busy spending Father’s Day with my dad, so he couldn’t come by for the machine then and hasn’t asked about it since. I wish he would come get it, I don’t drink coffee.

    • Her lawyer is a misogynistic asswipe because he is (a) possibly a cheater/Ashley Madison devotee himself, and/or (b) divorced and HIS wife won’t deal with his bullshit anymore.

      “Bitter” is the intelligent response to being conned by a serial cheater who blew up his/her kids’ lives for some sex with strange. It shows you have a backbone.

        • +100! Anger is your instinct to fight back when attacked. Good for you. Dump the lawyer calling you names. A flat no to what the X wants would save you more lawyer bills. Bet the XH just wants to keep forcing you to spend money with the lawyer indefinitely.
          An elderly lady I know always refuses sugar in her tea. She says she’s too sour to be sweetened. She was married to a cheater of course!!

  • I’d say that your lawyer smells a way to cash in on the upcoming conflict and wants to stir up business by shaming you. I mean, think about it…if he can get you engaged into wrangling about the custody agreement rather than just upholding the present Court Orders…who gets paid? He does. GET. ANOTHER. LAWYER. Heck, even in the unlikely event that you lose, I’d rather line the pockets of someone else who did not insult me. How dare he? You are not paying him to diagnose your mental/emotional wellness or your motives for wanting to keep things as they are. Waiving Spousal Support is not something that a spiteful person would do…ask me how I know. My X and I both waived Spousal Support…I do not want him coming after MY income should the Karma bus plow through his business…is that being “spiteful”…or protecting my own interest for my future?

    This is scary to me…the fact that any of us can be drug right back into Court repeatedly to change what was already clearly agreed to and signed off by the Court? Legal agreements are considered “fluid” regardless of the fact that no change occurred that possibly warrants it? Sheesh. While I am still paying off my X for his share of the house equity…will he be able to take me back to Court to force me to sell my home regardless of me keeping up with the agreed terms? I could not qualify for a loan and so am making 8 annual lump sum payments which I have not missed.

    And it seems that it takes moving heaven and earth for a minor to be able to get “heard” by the Court to say what they would like…my daughter is now going through this. Her 15 & 13 year old children do NOT want to live even part time with their dad (diagnosed with a serious mental illnesses and refusing meds or counseling). But NO ONE is even asking what the kids want…so they are now threatening to bolt and run if forced to live with him. Her STBX is telling his Atty that anything the kids say is “not really them talking”…”it is their mother”. How do you prove that the kids MEAN what they say and feel and are not being “prompted” by a parent?

    I think that the OW in this case may be prompting your Ex to do this…if he gets more custody, he pays even less and as a bonus, she gets to influence your teen at a very vulnerable time in life.

      • That judge is in big trouble now. She way overstepped her bounds. I expect she will be removed from the bench…eventually.

        • My ex and I divorced when our youngest two were 7 and 1 years old. When our son’s hit mid teens, their father would pick them up every other weekend for visitation as usual. He always took them fishing…did not matter the time of year. They hate fishing…it is BORING for teens with no friends to buffer the silence. It felt like slow torture…their father is a man who hardly talks…let alone about anything they are interested in even on a good day…he refused to get to know them as “persons” in their own rights…or was always correcting them for whatever they said or believed as if they were only mimicking my own influences and had no original thoughts of their own.

          Or he’d take them camping…they hated camping for the same reason. He’d never do anything that our sons would suggest as a compromise. Being that they felt obligated to spend the Court mandated weekend with him, they always went reluctantly…but one day after they got to his house, they both just sat glued in their chair and refused to get in the car when their father said that “it was time to go fishing”. I did not tell them to do that…they hatched this up on their own. They suggested to their dad that he could go fishing or camping when he did not have them…with people who actually liked it. Maybe if he had allowed a couple of their friends to join them, they would not have hated it quite as much…maybe they would have enjoyed it. But alas, when we got divorced, our sons lost contact with all their friends due to moving…and their father did not want “strange kids” (our sons new friends) along.

          I suppose that this gives validation to the saying “you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink”.

          A year later, the older son got an ear piercing…a simple tiny gold stud in just one ear. He got into his dad’s car and his dad noticed it right away and told him that he was not welcome in his house with that stud in his ear. Son said “okay” and got out of the car and did not go back until years later when his dad admitted that he probably made a stupid mistake. His dad also tried to set up counseling for our son as if he were the problem…which our son declined to go to because he was still not allowed to be in his dad’s presence with a stud earring. So now they see their dad twice a year as adults as an obligation simply because he is their bio dad…I did not alienate our sons…their dad did that all by himself.

          • Sweet story, Sweetz.
            It’s amazing how those Narc types can eff relationships up all by their little lonesome selves.

          • Your son is a cool cat and handled that just right.
            I wish I had his self possession when dealing with these Narc Freaks.

            Who cares about an ear ring? It is just art and self expression.

            • The dad didn’t actually care about the eating. It was an opportunity to exercise control and the son declined to play along.

      • Wow wow wow wow wow!!!!! Hope and Elizabeth sound like strong, intelligent, lovely young women, who did what they had to do in order to protect themselves and their emotional stability. I’m appalled by their dad and by the court system, and in awe of them and their mom.

        Kids can discern a strict but living parent from an emotionally abusive one. Sure, there is probably a handful of spoiled rotten brats out there who would rather live with dad because mom imposes too early a curfew or some such nonsense, but I suspect that’s rare. Adults have a terrible habit of not listening to kids and their concerns. I’ve made more than my share of mistakes as a mom, but I can look myself in the mirror and honestly say that I always, always listened.

        What’s needed is a combination of good laws, good common sense, and compassion in deciding these difficult cases. What kids have to say absolutely needs to be given more weight. I wish Elizabeth and Hope all the best.

      • Holy fuck. Unbelievable that she would send kids to a juvenile facility (not a nice place even for hardcore teenagers) because they invoked their right for self preservation.

  • Embrace being called “spiteful.” Morons who call you that will maybe then realize just how traumatic divorce is, let alone divorce due to infidelity…with children involved. It’s an upheaval that endures for years…decades. Being upset about it is normal and healthy, especially when the ex pulls some new bullshit that you have to deal with.

    No one ever called me “spiteful” to my face. In fact, I recently moved to the town where I met my ex, and have been reconnecting with old friends who knew us. THEIR level of spite and vitriol is something to behold!! And it Makes me see that my angrey feelings, which still occasionally pop up now–years later–are entirely justified.

    “Spiteful,” my ass.

      • Chump Free nip this in the bud right now with both your lawyer and ex. When anyone calls me bitter or being mean to Dad now, which is mostly fuckwit and his wife or fuckwit and his wife via my children, I say “No, I’m just being empowered.”

        It took 5 years after a very fair divorce, 3 post decree lawsuits he started, belittling texts about me sent to me “accidently” and new threats via the children of “Dad says he’ll have to take you to court again ’cause you only talk to him in text and email” to wake up. Years ago, I supported my daughter in walking proudly away from a bullying “friend” in 2nd grade. Now it’s my time to walk away from this narc asshole bully and his even worse wife. We have the business of 3 children for only 6 more years. That’s it.

        Don’t be like me Chump Free. Keep on your current course. Dump the lawyer and go NC as much as possible with the ex.

        Keep the phrase ‘Bye Felicia playing in your head.

        • How they put the children in the middle of things is incredulous! I’ve seen it and also to the point where they try to claim the other parent is abusing the children! Has anyone dealt with that on CN? It’s beyond my comprehension the level of low with some people….

          • Peakyblinders: I’m sure a lot of chumps have had this happen. And when you really think about it it shouldn’t be so surprising how they use the kids. These cheaters didn’t care enough about their kids in the first place and chose to blow up their families instead of exiting carefully and graciously, have treated the mother/father of their children to repeated post decree lawsuits they usually lose (mine lost all 3), have delusional expectations of the chump after divorce, lied about when and how they met their fuckbuddy, oh I could go on and on.

            So putting the kids in the middle? I don’t even this this issue crosses their mind.

  • Sounds like your lawyer is a cheater apologist and has that funky smell of a cheater odour. Fire him pronto.

    CL has once again hit the nail on the head.

  • I love this… “You aren’t spiteful, you’re lucid!”

    I just had court last week where the Judge ordered the attorneys into “economic mediation”. Apparently we must follow the state’s little divorce flowchart to the letter.

    Only thing is – the same Judge UPHELD the pre-nuptial agreement 5 MONTHS AGO. Economic mediation, what economic mediation?!?!?

    So, I said as much to my lawyer as we were leaving court and she responded with “When do you see your therapist again?”

    I replied… “Freedom Seeker – my anger is completely appropriate right now.”


    Keep sticking up for yourself – keep being the new YOU.

    Rock on Chump Nation.

    • My favorite quip from Women After 50: “I don’t need anger management…I need people to stop pissing me off.”

    • “So, I said as much to my lawyer as we were leaving court and she responded with “When do you see your therapist again?””

      I’m wondering if another good comeback might be:

      “And when do you plan to see yours.”

  • Manipulators use inflammatory words to get the rest of us to “take the bait” to try to prove something. Cheaters along with certain managers/HR, peers, teenagers, lawyers, medical professionals, reporters, law enforcement professionals, salespeople, and others who want things from us that we would not otherwise give are adept at this.

    Don’t take the bait.

    Just because someone called you a thing doesn’t mean the thing is true. It doesn’t even mean the person actually thinks it’s true. If you don’t react and they soon choose a different inflammatory word to describe you, recognize it as a reaction fishing expedition, shake your head, try to hide your ironic smirk, and move on.

    Insults are immature and unprofessional. People who use them in mature and/or professional environments (like marriages, and court…) lack integrity and respectability.

    • “Just because someone called you a thing doesn’t mean the thing is true.” V. true, Amiisfree.

      The Lying Liar Who Lies uses the term “hateful” to describe me. I’m hateful for getting a Protective Order. I’m hateful for collecting child support. I’m hateful for keeping the house. I’m hateful because I’m still standing, apparently.

      He is not “hateful.” He is “full of love,” is tight with God and is praying for me. His OFW emails are infuriating but the sting has lessened after a year and a half.

      Until. Until he went after a softer target, S17, who wants nothing to do with The Liar. S17 has blocked The Liar’s texts and phone calls. S17 shows up for his court-ordered 8 hours a month visitation with a bad teenage attitude. The Liar clicks off the charm channel and flips to rage. In our FRONT YARD, The Liar rages at S17, “I love you but you are full of hate. I am not ever coming back for you. I hope you find God. Goodbye.” The Liar drives off.

      My Joe Cool S17 is visibly shaken. I tell him “Just because someone called you something doesn’t mean the thing is true. You are not full of hate. You are full of self-respect. Your father doesn’t like your boundary setting. That is his problem, not yours.”

      Here’s to mighty chumps. And chump children, too!

      • Beautiful, Eve. All children would benefit from having a Mom intervene this way.
        I am certain that your son will NEVER forget this powerful teaching.

      • Eve,
        What a kick-ass mom you are — teaching your son to stand up for himself. While I am the Xwife of a covert narc (a.k.a. the six-foot-five pussy), I am the daughter of a rage-filled, manipulative Overt Narc like your X. I was the one standing up to my dad. I know exactly how your son feels. But you know what, it has to be done. You know what happens to kids like him when they don’t break from the Narc Dad? They end up like my little brother, now 43, medicating with alcohol, living in a rental house owned by NarcDad and worst of all, still working for said Narc Dad who treats him like a slave. My brother has a wasted life because he STILL keeps trying to “win the love” of Narc Dad. Sure they fight sometimes and he will “stand up” for himself, only to have to come crawling back to Narc Dad because Narc Dad controls his money, his home, and his self esteem.
        Your son has the right idea. So fucking what if your son IS filled with hate? Hate is the appropriate feeling to have for Narc Dad.
        Somehow when I was about your son’s age I realized something was “off” with my dad, that any nice thing he did for us (like buy groceries or clothes or take me to the doctor) came with a price, an expectation that he would get to control something about me. I designed my life to be as independent as possible from him: scholarship to college, worked to earn my own money, the goal was to need as little as possible from him so as to not be dependent on him. My siblings all needed help from him for a lot longer. I am 52 years old and even though I live far away and only have very, very infrequent contact with my Narc Dad, I am broken hearted just knowing how terribly he treats my brother (and sisters too) who couldn’t muster the strength to GET AWAY. I am counting the years till my dad is finally gone from this earth. (It could be awhile because his side of the family has a history of long life — into the 90’s and his uncle lived into his 100’s.) When that day does come, HE WILL NOT BE MISSED.
        I share this story as the story as what can and does happen with Narc parents.
        Your son’s self respect — and his willingness to fight for it — and support from you — his awesome mom — is what is going to get this young man through. I’m rooting for him!!!!!!

      • My independent, strong, clever, and self aware D17almost18 just broke up with her cheating BF. And turned to me saying, “I think I’m a jealous GF. WTF? I worry about what happened to you and Dad.” I just hugged her and said, “you are NOT a jealous GF. You are smart, caring, independent, and did I say smart?” You felt jealous because your gut knew. I have never seen you jealous. His actions caused this. It’s not who you ARE.” I think she took it on board. A variation on the same theme. He told her not to worry – suggesting she was deluded – and her brain knew he was full of shit.

  • Horrible truth is cheaters only want to change custody so they can pay less. Also, they reap what they sow in the actual relationship with the child.

    In the courtroom maybe not but in real life older kids definitely do have a say in visitation. You can only force a teenager to do so much.

    Specifically, they’ll get in the car and then ignore him and text each other about how much they can’t stand him. Also, you can’t lie and cheat and then prevent your high schooler from looking you in the eye and saying, “I have no respect for you because you destroyed our family and are STILL making bad choices.”

    I hate words like spiteful and bitter. People just don’t know what the emotional abuse and psychological assault of infidelity feels like. If they lived one moment with this kind of intimate betrayal, they would not use those terms.

  • It’s not your lawyer’s place to criticize and judge you. That is not why you’re paying them $350/ hour. They are there to look out for your legal interests. I’d can this lawyer pronto and get myself another lawyer who advocates for you. And I’m wondering if your lawyer is sympathizing with your ex. And if he is, then he won’t be able to represent you neutrally, because he is biased. And FYI, you SHOULD have spite for your ex-husband. He cheated on you, betrayed you and disrespected you. Destroyed your family. I’d not only have spite for my ex, but I’d have rage, contempt, hatred and lots of other bad feelings. So your lawyer is not qualified to represent you any longer, they are biased and will not look after your best interests.

  • I want to be spiteful too!
    Because it sounds like you’re a kick ass person, Chump Free with boundaries who has embraced “no” as a full sentence and will go back to court to help and protect your kids. Suddenly “spiteful” has a pretty positive connotation.

  • You are all wonderful. Bringing tears to my eyes from the love and support. Wishing you strength and courage on your journey. There are far too many messages on the Internet that say basically “roll over and die” for the sake of the children. Chump lady’s message should ring louder and more true- leave a cheater, gain a life. Repeat this mantra as needed until it is second nature. Chump nation will live happily ever after with time, and knowledge and support to one another. I will never apologize how o chose to survive.

  • Dear Chump Free,

    Former divorce lawyer here. I would never call my client spiteful even if I thought it was true. We attorneys have an ethical imperative to represent our clients to the very best of our ability. I’m pretty sure saying derogatory things to them does not qualify as part of our professional obligation and I sure as hell wouldn’t pay another dime to someone who said such a thing to me. Fire him immediately. And just so you know, the hopefully STBXattorney also has an ethical obligation to turn over your file to your new attorney. Don’t let him tell you any different.

    There is NOTHING spiteful about protecting your custody agreement from the whim of an angry ex spouse. I don’t know where you are, but where I am located a material change in circumstance is required for a change in custody to be considered. I’m not sure who is the bigger asshat in this scenario – your ex or your attorney but I totally admire your calm certainty in the face of having to deal with both of them. Good for you!

  • Cluster Fuck B Sociopath calls me “bitter”, which is essentially along the same lines as spiteful. Fucking right I’m bitter to the core. I’ll spit on your dumb ass if you get too close to me you spawn of Satan evil bitch. ??
    Your lawyer is not paid to insult you. He can fuck off too.

    • You know, we’re going to be labelled something by the cheater, no matter what we do. We’re either bitter, insecure, too sensitive, psycho, crazy, etc. Just line up the insults. It’s not enough we were abused, but now we are further injured by being labelled hurtful things. It’s how they operate.

      My ex’s behavior was unacceptable, and whenever I called him on it, *I* was the asshole. So what’s the alternative, just bend over and take it then. F- that shit. I am justified to feel the way I do and I don’t give a rats ass as to what the cheater thinks of me, or others for that matter. They aren’t walking my shoes, didn’t suffer the torture I did. They can all kiss my ass.

      • My 14 year old daughter told me “Dad says you’re being mean to him when you won’t talk to him in person. He says everybody has a right to be happy.”

        To which I replied, “Exactly! Everybody does have a right to be happy. And it makes ME happy not to talk to him. Really really happy.”

        • They cant believe that we could possibly be happy not having anything to do with them but it’s true. I dreamt of him latching onto someone so he’d leave me alone. that did not pan out. I love love love not interacting with him. it makes me happy. any forced conversation with him puts such a damper on my day. some people clearly just live to be a nuisance. We want to run from them like you run from a pile of hot shit.

          • The ex (will practice not saying my ex) latched on to that someone else before we divorced and still won’t leave me alone.

            I love love love the not interacting too Mandie. The ex is soooooo verbose. Always has been. As if I still possibly give a shit about his deep introspective thoughts on drivers ed, co-ed vs single sex soccer, or volunteering at the cat shelter. I try to keep my responses to 5 words or less and I know it irks him. My daughter said “Dad says you don’t understand his emails. You don’t respond much.” And Granny replied “Have you ever seen how long they are? Your mother doesn’t even read them.”

  • WTF is it with ex’s who say you are bitter? Do they even know what the work actually MEANS?

    Bitter: Someone who is bitter is angry and unhappy because they cannot forget bad things that were done to them.

    Ummmmm….okay. Well then I guess I am fucking bitter.

  • I don’t consider myself to be very sensitive to name calling and have developed a pretty tough skin over the years (having lived with a narc for so long). I had a later in life pregnancy so I was sent to a different OB for some tests. While I was there the doctor looked at my age and STBX’s (we are 9 years apart). He looked at me and said, “wow, you’re a real life cougar.” I kind of rolled my eyes at him and STBX laughed but as I left I thought, wow, that was an incredibly sexist thing to say. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have said anything had the ages been reversed.

  • “People in high-conflict divorces are divorcing cons, addicts, untreated psychotics, and flaming personality disorders, among other horrors. Just because the system wants to slather “play nice” all over that shit doesn’t make it workable.”


  • Fuckwits will ALWAYS try to change the rules. And if you let them have it their way, they will be back for seconds in short order. Ask me how I know? The Fucktard ex earned twice what I did (had two lucrative part time jobs), but took a voluntary leave of absence from one position to reduce his income so he wouldn’t have to pay support. (In fact, he was still working there but holding his timecards to cash in later.) We agreed to a mutual waiver of support. Then, after finally reaching a property settlement, the jerk decided it would be better for him if he called the payments he had to make to me to buy me out of the house “alimony,” taxable to me and deductible to him. By then I was worn to a nubbin by his antics and just wanted him out of my life. I took the hit, and signed off. He hemmed and hawed and tried to renegotiate the rest of the agreement FOR A YEAR before signing off himself. Then every month the check would arrive with some version of “For Survivor’s greed and extortion” on the explanation line.

    So, Chump Free, I absolutely agree with others that your ex will go on and on looking for a better deal for himself if you let him. The correct answer is “no.” I fired my lawyer when she said “Well, you married him.” You can fire your lawyer now. Feeling bitter or spiteful toward a person who has committed a home invasion robbery isn’t wrong. It’s justified. Good luck to you.

      • I said no, I married someone totally different who looked like him. I didn’t meet “him” until quite a while later. I fired her anyway.

      • I must have had the same lawyer. We had one mediation session with the fucktard and his lawyer. My lawyer was late to the meeting and attacked me (in front of them) when I was visibly upset and saying “no” to one of fucktard’s veiled requests. She told me to take the deal because it was fair (LMAO). Adios Cuntessa.

  • It’s one of my pastimes to let people hang themselves with their own words. When your lawyers said you had some spite, I would have been tempted to ask, “In what way?” — “Huh?” — “In what way does my behavior suggest ‘spite’?” — I’ll bet he couldn’t have done it, if he really knows what the word means, which is a “deliberate effort to hurt someone.” — You aren’t trying to hurt XH, you are just looking out for yourself. If those two actions overlap, oh well. As you said, “nice” is off the table.

    I would also mention my XH [I still hate saying “my” XH … I want no ownership of that mess!] also accused me of spite, but behind my back, of course, over our dogs. He made a comment about how I was preventing him from seeing our dogs then looked all sad-sausage about it (according to this mutual friend who doesn’t like him very much these days). But what he neglected to mention is that he never expressed an interest to have the dogs or even to see or visit the dogs. I don’t know how we would have navigated that and I’m grateful I didn’t have to, but the point is that he never asked me once, and he then accused me of preventing him access.

    People see what they want to see. It sounds to me like your lawyer has some personal issues of his own. And if he feels, on any level, as if your behavior is spiteful, and furthermore to say it aloud!, then he is unlikely to be professional enough to confine his personal biases such that he can do the very best work on your behalf at all times. I’m sorry you have to go through this, but I gotta say, I love you attitude!

    • NWB, I get hating to say “my”. Nope, not mine in anyway. I call the dude exasshole or Saddam.

      On pets, I was really worried Saddam would go after the cats because that is one stick he actually could have used to get more money out of me. I had to get the breeder to send me one of the two cats sales receipt because it wasn’t in my file, she did that for me. Thing is, it never even occurred to him to try and get ‘his’ cat or mine. Why? Because his love of the cats was as bogus as his love of me. He fucked me up in a lot of ways with his manipulations but he never figured out the lever that might move me in the divorce. I’m glad of that.

      • Oh, lord. We had 12 year old twin cats that had never been apart in their lives. The Fucktard’s solution was that he take his and I take mine. I am not joking. I had to give up my bunnies and fish to keep those cats together. Did the Fucktard give a rat’s ass about the bunnies or the fish? Hell, no. But I’m sure that having an aquarium built into the kitchen (that I’d cared for all those years) and fluffy litter box trained (by me) bunnies scored a lot of points with potential future victims.

        Later, the jerk threatened to sue me for pet visitation. He wanted to have the ability to scope out my new secure undisclosed location and Hoover at will under the guise of petting geriatric cats. The answer was no. And the cats lived together until they were nearly 20.

    • The X (note avoidance of “my” as well) did not express any interest in custody of the family dogs, either. Admittedly, he was in an Airbnb apartment when the divorce settlement was being finalized, and gave the sad sausage ploy of “I am alone here, without children, without the house, without the dogs…..” but never even asked for visitation.

      In the divorce from his previous wife, he did maintain custody of a gorgeous dalmation, but then gave it up to her months later because having a dog was inconvenient when he traveled. His Xwife remarked, “I knew I’d eventually get the dog.” [hits head] WHY did I not pay attention to that???? [hits head again]

      • Oh, and I offered him the dogs for a week when I went on a trip; he declined. Turns out he had just moved into his million dollar mansion and the dogs would have scratched his hard wood floors. Jerk.

        • I believe that people who can just “give up” dogs are sociopathic. Unless they have a terminal illness (and then they can make plans for the dogs care), it is very close to saying your 5 year old is “inconvenient” and they have to “give them up.”

          But…I still believe there are different species on this planet….aliens.

          I live near an orphanage (like a real orphanage). I have all these clothes that I will never fit into again (sob). Size 4/6 is not coming back. Even though it made me feel like a total fatty failure, I decided to donate all of these beautiful clothes to some of the teenage girls at the orphanage. They have everything from infants to 17 year olds.

          When I took all these clothes and age appropriate books, the woman at the orphanage told me that around December….many parents “give up” their children, but come back around the end of January.

          I said “Huh?”

          She said…They don’t want to buy Christmas presents. They dump them for the holidays and then come back after the Holidays are over.

          I was like, how? what? why? Huh? WTF???

          Turns out, there are such a shortage of foster homes, etc….many of the parents claim they just were in a rough patch, ($) and many judges let them take the children back, even after they have abandoned them.

          The woman said it happens like clockwork…every year.

          Aliens, I tell you. Aliens.

          • Another lesson learned the hard way. I knew my ex had left a sick cat behind in her second divorce, but I had convinced myself that she had bravely left a bad situation. After seeing how she walked out on the dog we adopted together, I now have an altogether different view. I’m unlikely to ever give anyone who has ever abandoned a pet, no matter the reason, a chance.

            • Exactly!!!

              If someone can abandon a pet….you know they are heartless and disordered.

              Imagine the cat…wondering…where did she go? I will go through concrete walls for my dogs and cat.

          • I am speechless. It was too hard to do Christmas with my kids, so I abandoned them to save money on gifts and to free myself up for partying without the expense of babysitters? Wow.

            • I was, too. I thought the woman was lying. Another worker chimed in and said:
              No, it happens here every holiday.

              And, because of trauma bonding, she and he said that when the parents roll in…the children are hysterical and crying, so happy to see them.

              After the community and churches, and charities have provided their “Christmas”, they are ready to “parent” again.

          • I agree; I could no sooner give up my pets than I could my children. [Caveat: there ARE moments when the 15-year old daughter is difficult and disrespectful enough that she is in danger of having a sign hung around her neck, “Free to a good home,” but I’ve never actually made such a sign. Promise.]

            • Tempest,
              I could not imagine someone being disrespectful to you! (But I don’t have children).

              If she as smart as you, and then gets sassy…I can imagine that could be a hair pulling moment.

              I don’t know how you deal with smart mouth teenagers? Take away things? Reason with them?

              • You take away a teenager’s iphone ; ).

                They would prefer you took away their air than their iphone (so it gets the message across).

                (For what it’s worth, I think the worst behavior of children is at developmental times when the brain is in the most rapid growth or re-organization. So, unlike cheaters, they have some physiological explanation and they can get better. But children of fuckwits also saw their fuckwit parent behave disrespectfully. It’s almost inevitable they will model that, and, as usual, it is up to the chump parent to correct the bad habits. Teenagers are why humankind invented alcohol.)

            • Technically the cat is his but no way is Dr. Crazy getting him. Especially since my daughter and her friends had him marry my little dog in an inter-species wedding in 2014, complete with invitations, top hat and champagne toast. Should it ever come up in court, I have the photos to prove it. Now that’s twu wuv!

            • My 15 year old DD and I were shopping at the drug store and she showed me a new multivitamins specially formulated for teen girls. I said “Really? Do they have 500 mg of Calm the F Down?”

          • While not everyone is gaga over animals, I respect that as long as they never own or abuse an animal. So many dysfunctional asswipes love to get kittens or puppies, especially puppies because they receive oodles of attention when out and about. However the novelty wears off, the day to day care becomes a real drag and these people just easily walk away from their pets. I would say that when first dating someone find out if they every had an animal and if they tell you that they had to get rid of it or some other lame story, it is indicative of a warped narcissist and you should run the hills.

            • KB22,
              You are preaching to the choir. I was removed from the adoption table at my rescue group because they said I was “too strict”. It was a new group that had formed.

              Then, when all the dogs started coming back at 6-9 months, they said, Oh, you were right.

              Puppies grow. If you don’t teach them, they poo in the house. It is not personal. They jump, chew, climb. I can’t get started. It enrages me.

              But…I can tell immediately who should NOT get a dog. Young families with kids. New couples who think it is “fun” to get a puppy together. I am a HUGE HUGE HUGE advocate for Senior Adoptions.

              But most people want the cute puppy. I say: Do you have 30 plus hours a week available? Most don’t.

              Senior Dogs are so cute. They are my favorite. And, it is not anthropomorphizing them….they are grateful.

              And THANK YOU…Do not get one if you are going to tie it up out back, you monster.

              In the Intro/First Chapter to Martha Beck’s The Sociopath Next Door, she talks about a sociopath who realizes he forget to walk and feed his Golden Retriever and the thought process the socio goes through vs. a non socio about the well being of the dog.

              How someone treats a defenseless being…shows how they will treat you.

              • I volunteer at a dog shelter and my “favorite” return was the numbskull who got a young labrador, even though the family lived in a small apartment. Duh; labs need to run around & get tons of exercise. Did the people not see the 7-lb chihuahuas who needed adopting?

            • CF walked out 3 dogs (and 2 kids). Technically our male Boxer is his. His mom, his sister and I chipped in together to buy him for his birthday (he had wanted a Boxer for years and knew this was happening). Yeah well, screw that. I am the one that fed and watered that dog. I am the one that took him to obedience school- twice. He slept with me. When we moved across the country back in 2006 the dog was a year old; he wanted to give him up then. Oh hell no!

              In an ironic twist when we first got together I told him I had always wanted a Great Dane that I would name Beauregard, Beau for short. He told me he had always wanted a Boxer named the same. Obviously we ended up with the Boxer. Shortly after I found out about his affair her husband told me CF bought her 4 kids a Great Dane puppy. Wonder if they named it Beau?

          • CF walked out 3 dogs (and 2 kids). Technically our male Boxer is his. His mom, his sister and I chipped in together to buy him for his birthday (he had wanted a Boxer for years and knew this was happening). Yeah well, screw that. I am the one that fed and watered that dog. I am the one that took him to obedience school- twice. He slept with me. When we moved across the country back in 2006 the dog was a year old; he wanted to give him up then. Oh hell no!

            In an ironic twist when we first got together I told him I had always wanted a Great Dane that I would name Beauregard, Beau for short. He told me he had always wanted a Boxer named the same. Obviously we ended up with the Boxer. Shortly after I found out about his affair her husband told me CF bought her 4 kids a Great Dane puppy. Wonder if they named it Beau?

            • Never give up a pet to a cheater if you can help it. Too many horror stories from CN about them caring as much for the pets as they did for us.

        • Oh the pets. Yes, the wackjob decided to kidnap one of them, and not tell us he had him. This after my daughter who suffers from anxiety( I wonder why?) lost her cat to coyotes on our country property. He let us believe for 3 days that the cat was dead, until my daughter told her dad she thought our “bear” also was lost to coyotes. He then said “oh he’s fine, I have him”. Nasty piece of work.

      • My ex left the dog I’d bought him with me while he was on a business trip during our separation, but he didn’t come back to get her. I asked him if he wanted her and he said he was traveling too much. She’s an awesome dog, I’m glad I have her. Sometimes I fantasize that he left her with me because she such a good companion, but the truth is probably that he just didn’t want to deal with her. He never seemed to get attached to much of anything.

        • Lyn,

          ” He never seemed to get attached to much of anything.”

          I think what is so hard for empaths like us to grasp is that they do not bond. My X spent so much money on my dogs. He would lie on the floor with them. He never came without carefully selected toys and treats for them. He listened to me about never buying food with corn in it, and would buy the best. He called my Roxie his “sugar bowl.”

          He would pet them for hours. He helped me brush them, etc.

          And he has no concern for their well being. None. He knows how smart and wonderful my dogs are, and how much time I have spent training them. He would marvel at how good they are (with the exception of my cross eyed Shih Tzu, that I have spoiled beyond because he so cute I can’t stand it)

          HE. DOES. NOT. CARE.
          I marvel at this.

          Was it all fake? Did he love the dogs? Was it part of his act?

          Roxie was in kidney failure? Did not phase him.

          If they do not attach to us, I guess a dog is like a…..shirt?

          I hate to say it, but I am sure your X did not want the “complications” of a dog. They need stuff: like time, attention and love.

          • Wow. I’ve had a very similar experience.

            My ex was the one who bought waaaay too many dog toys. Was always trying new bones to find one he liked. Took care of enrichment activities for when he was alone. Got mad at me if I didn’t want to walk him on a rainy/snowy/cold as all fuck night.

            I had planned on shooting myself when my ex left (didn’t tell her this) and told her that I needed her to take our dog (seen in my pic, btw). Her response: “why’s he my problem? Your parents will take him if you don’t want him.”

            WTF with going from hyper-loving and concerned to not caring at all?

            • My husband was verbally abusive to first dog he picked out. She was retarded and couldnt wait till she died. Next dog, he Had to have this very active breed. Oh thats what I had growing up. Well he played with this dog maybe 10 times in 8 yrs. Always threating to take it to the pound. No connection. He jyst liked to buy things.

              • Snowflake, with no exaggeration, if someone threatened a HAIR on my dogs heads…*they* would be in the pound…as in pounds of flesh that would be run through the wood chipper or weighted down in a duffel bag in the Atlantic Ocean.

                Even Suitcase Thrower knew not the mess with my dogs. I will get out the baseball bat and SWING AWAY.

              • Thanks for the concern. After posting I wondered why I included that part. The only thing I came up with is I think I felt the need to justify even the thought of giving my buddy away.

                I have lifelong severe depression, so I still go through periods where being dead seems appealing, but I haven’t again felt the urge to actually find my gun. Even though I never kept bullets in the house, I had my parents take my gun to their house many years ago. I’m still here due to my mom’s tendency to hoard. I looked but couldn’t find the damn thing.

                Your grief over being alone for Roxie (I apologize if I’m recalling the wrong name) is something I’ve been dreading for 2 years now.

              • I really do mean thank you. I never remember how flippant “thanks” sounds until after I say it.

            • He is a beautiful dog, WWDSG. He looks like a love bug.

              Listen- I signed up for Meet Ups. I am telling you…these people have it going on. They have so many fun activities. People email you, and ask you if you are coming, or just to say hello.

              You should try it. Being alone is too much is as harmful as having cancer. (Google it). Being alone too much leads to despair.

              You may not meet the love of your life on your first Meet Up, or your 20th, but just being around other people is incredibly therapeutic.

              Dogs are my everything, but we need people. We need someone who can talk to us back.

              Go to Meet Up right now and just sign up for one event. It is painless and there is nothing to lose. Most of them are free. Just do it.

            • I’m glad you didn’t end your life, WWDSG, and especially over a cheater. But we know that pain and anguish of soul that arrives when a cheater implodes the relationship

              Also, I’m very glad you pointed out that it was your dog in your pic. On my iPad the pic is so small, I always thought it was an orangutan. I enlarged that photo, and sure enough, it’s a beautiful dog! I either need a bigger screen or reading glasses.

              • I adopted a beautiful grey long haired girl cat in the year before the kids, cat and I left cheater ex. He threatened to drop kick kitty out the back door one day. He backed down when I told him that if he did, his sorry ass would follow her a few seconds later and he would never be allowed through the door ever again.

                I am beyond fierce when I see abuse, or when someone threatens abuse especially to anyone furry or otherwise around me. I pretty much scared the crap out of cheater ex.

                Good! He had it coming!

    • I got the two dogs; CheaterX got the two and a half cats.

      It’s not that CheaterX is a great cat-daddy. He’s not, but he is careful to feed them and clean out their litter boxes. No cat has a cleaner litter box. He overfeeds them, so they’re quite obese. He gave up trying to get them to lose weight, since he didn’t see any results on the low-cal diet he put them on. Of course he still kept feeding each about 1/3 cup of treats with each meal. :rolleyes:

      However, he’d be a horrible dog-daddy. We had two herding breed dogs. No one should have smart, high-energy dogs unless they’re willing to make the commitment to long walks, rain or shine, and significant amount of time training. CheaterX will walk a dog only when he thinks it makes him look good. Otherwise, they would spend hours in the fenced-in back yard, and then come back in and drive him crazy because he never gave them the quality exercise and mental stimulation they needed.

      • Oh, and I should say that I and the dogs are doing very well, thank you so much. 🙂 Life in the country, no drama, and very quiet.

        • Yea! The cats will have shorter lives if they are obese but at least they have a clean home and food.

          That is the truth! Any herder dogs need massive stimulation and exercise.

          They never want to do the hard work. Only the sparkly stuff.

      • Dr. Crazy hated my dog because my friend, a man, had accompanied me to the shelter when I adopted her years ago. As for his cat, he knew I was an advocate for shelter pets so he lied and said the cat came from the local shelter. Just recently the shelter lady told me they haven’t had that breed during all the years she’d been there. I don’t know why I was surprised. Dr Crazy had lied about EVERYTHING else.

        • WWDSG,
          You included it because it was true. I know that feeling. I would never abandon my dogs. That always stops me.

          Do you live with your Mom? I hope not. Living my Mom….that would be so bad. I can stand it for about 3 days. She is so negative. Depression will come a knocking fast. I am sorry your mother is hoarder.

          I am NOT a doctor (although I think I am! 🙂

          But, have you ever considered shock therapy? It sounds like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s nest. My aunt had it. It helped her so much. I have never researched why it works, but it did something for her that no drugs could do. It was like a reset in her brain. She just did not feel like life was so meaningless and now only takes a low dose of antidepressant.

          We cannot let these human vermin take our life away. There are billions…..BILLIONS…of other people int he world who could be a loving and faithful partner.

          I just got back from a bowling meet up ( I DID IT!!!) and I had a great time. I am terrible bowler but it was fun and everyone was friendly. Don’t isolate yourself.

          I am telling you- going around people helps you see…that these cheaters are a speck in the universe. And a shitty speck at that.

          Even if you have to force yourself to go, just go! Please do it for yourself.

        • Geode,
          That is why I am SO HAPPY that X (no more my! I like that) have no friends in common and I live in a different town-

          I can’t bear to know about anymore lies. I cannot handle it. He is the same as Dr. Crazy.
          I know enough to turn my stomach. No more.

    • Wow. Lots of pet stories. Thanks to all for sharing.

      Yes, it’s true, they just don’t seem to care about anything with any true depth. How do I know this (other than the gazillion stories here)? Because XH’s [also, I only wrote “my XH” in the first bit to clarify I wasn’t talking about the original poster’s XH] AP (who was also married) gave away her two dogs after she & XH hooked up. I suspect it’s because she was going back to start a college program (gross), but I had both of my (now passed) dogs all through grad school and vet school and never once thought about giving them up.

      I used to think (even before DDay) that XH wanted a dog he could just stuff in a closet when it wasn’t convenient. You know, just whip it out when it was “cool” to have a dog, like when he was skiing or hiking in the backcountry or whatever. But routine day to day stuff, like feeding and walks and picking up the poop, or playing with them or petting them when we were all hanging out at home together? Umm, no. No interest.

  • Yes, your lawyer is speaking Cheaterspeak. This is a variant of word salad, in which meanings are reversed, i.e. up is down, black is white, old is new, and the asshole that was cruel and heartless is a sad sausage whose feelings you hurt. And fighting for your financial survival is attacking the cheater and “stealing assets.” Telling people what the cheater did is “character assassination” in this language, as my Ex pointed out to me.

    Cheaterspeak is related to the language Narcspeak, which works the same way for obvious reasons.

    My Ex also mansplained to me that I was “a heartless bitch who only cared about money,” after I kicked him out after supporting him for 16 years out of love and generosity.

    Yes, get yourself a better lawyer. Preferably one who has a heart and soul.

    • Oh, also, a Switzerland friend told me I was “too negative.” Couldn’t understand why I wasn’t sitting around relishing my memories of all the good times with Cheater. Broke it down for her and explained how Asshole was the one who nuclear-bombed the good times, not me.. didn’t she get that? No, apparently.

      • Doesn’t that make you angry, Muse? The fact that you should even have to explain it means they are lucky it hasn’t happened to them…that they know of anyway!

        • It’s as if our role is to make others comfortable. Whatever a narc can do to triangulate after the divorce they will feel entitled as usual. SHUT.THAT.SHIT.DOWN. FAST.

          Get a new lawyer not a cheater to represent you.

  • oh course you are still spiteful I am still spiteful 2+ yrs away from the affair ( maybe less so but it still pops up) SO WHAT as long as you are paying this lawyer you can be as spiteful as you want as long as you are not completely unreasonable or malicious or hurtful to the children and using them as pawns

  • I agree that your lawyer made a demeaning comment, that was an attempt to shame you. You need a different lawyer for sure! One thing about becoming unchumped — you don’t want to put up with that shit any more, from anyone. Especially people you’re paying to have your back.

    • “One thing about becoming unchumped — you don’t want to put up with that shit an more, from anyone.”
      Damn straight!

  • You aren’t spiteful — you’re lucid.

    Hell to the yes. Now that Im informed and less decieved, Im lucid about what it was I lived and Im lucid and rather spiteful .

  • In an effort to prove his remorse, my STBX agreed to everthing that I demanded. My anger drove me (and still drives me) to take everything he has except shared custody of our three kids. As we were drafting our agreement, the mediator/attorney realized that this was a very lopsided agreement. He was also aware that my STBX had lied to, manipulated, used and abused me and the kids so that he could have some strange in a public restroom while I took care of our kids. When my husband agreed to continue paying for the house that I would not let him stay in, the attorney to my STBX, “Wow, that’s very humble of you”. HUMBLE. I was speechless. I couldn’t respond the way that I wanted to. I just kept choking on it. HUMBLE. I was a loyal and respectful wife. I protected and took care of my kids and my husband. And my STBX was the HUMBLE one.

    • My Dad ‘gave’ more than half to my Mum. Same deal. Guilt. She felt none! Anyway, he had the greater earning power. We don’t have spousal support here really. Just child. So she was perfectly entitled to his ‘humility’!

  • Just like in any other field, many lawyers are simply lazy. Telling you that you are “spiteful” is a way to control you behavior so he does not have to do anymore work; file a modification, “deal” with your X and his attorney, do any more, you know…work that he is paid to do.

    Most lawyers do the least amount of work for the most amount of money.

    So, let’s make his day. After you fire him, write a letter to the Bar of whatever state you are in. Be very non emotional. State the facts. Sound the opposite of bitter or (gasp!) spiteful.

    Say this:

    While I understand X’s behavior in this instance may not rise to the level of a formal bar complaint where the Bar can take disciplinary action, this must be documented for future clients who might be the target of Attorney X’s disparaging comments while in a vulnerable position.

    He is zinged either way. And you can lay the groundwork if he pulls this with another woman.

    He wants to to try and make you feel like shit after what you have been through?

    Be sure and CC him (copy him) so his weekend is ruined. Email or shoot it right on over to his smug ass.

    Lawyers HATE and fear bar complaints.

    Game on, Bitch.

    • “Telling you that you are “spiteful” is a way to control your behavior..”

      DING DING DING!!! Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

    • Great idea. Be sure to wait to file the formal complaint until AFTER your new lawyer has received your file from asshole Soon-to-be-former atty.

      • Nah. If you are cc:ing the fired attorney, put in the complaint letter to the Bar that you have demanded return or your file and have yet to receive it. It will show up instantly. More attorneys get disciplined or disbarred for things like client noncommunication or failure to return files or comingling client money/not returning unearned retainer money than bigger misdeeds. At least in my state. And be sure to ask for an accounting from the Fired One so you can see what you’ve paid for, and if there is anything hinky about that, and whether you have any money left in your account to be returned.

    • Silvia
      I agree except for the fact they are all in it together. I had documented proof that me ex’s Atty lied & the bar association did nothing. Anyway – I did get some personal satisfaction out if it .

      • Some lawyers stick together, but physicians are FAR worse. Many lawyers specialize only in legal malpractice. Suing other lawyers! They are everywhere in Florida. There are so many lawyers in the States, they will take any case to make a buck.

        Law attracts the Dark Triad personality types. But, if you can find one good one, they can save you in ways you never imagined. I got into a scrape over an abused dog, and that terrible habit I have of not backing down over defending animals or children. Two lawyers flat out saved me from being arrested. It was bad. But I managed to survive. Thank God for them.

        The key with the Bar Complaint (at the State level, what regulates their license to practice) is to be fact based. Non emotional. Cite any regulations you can find in their regs. Send it certified. Follow up on the complaint.

        You can go over and ask to have a copy of your file put on a thumb drive. It is your file. If their dumb ass wants to stand there and make paper copies, that will work, too.

        But, yes….prudence to get that file first. And then come out swinging!

    • I love this idea of filing a complaint. It’s a good opportunity to practice your game face too. What I’m saying is that I have had to act a certain way around lawyers, judges, and other people during my divorce that doesn’t expose me to more harm. (Hey, I have a lot of experience hiding my true feelings from my cheater, so I think I can act pretty well.) Just because you are spiteful, CFS, doesn’t mean you can appear spiteful in court. You have to play the game and appear a certain way? Why? Because judges are human too. Once you get a feel for the Judge you might tailor your behavior. (Even then you might have a different judge one day if yours is out sick for example.)

      Good luck to you, and I hope you beat his ass.

      • Yeah, I did a lot of facial control exercises in the mirror so I had tons of practice before I got in a courtroom. But then I felt like *I* was a liar because my outward expressions were masking homicidal rage.
        I’d fire any lawyer that can’t comprehend that representing me properly doesn’t include lobbing insults at me.

      • This is why I am actively researching moving to Alaska. I am tired of games. I am tired of people. I am tired of assholes.

        I am tired of people sneaking around like dirty rats texting and sexting.

        I would rather worry about gathering enough firewood for a blizzard or getting my supplies in the boat than worry about the games people play.

        Am I giving up? No. I just only have a certain amount of time left, and I don’t have the desire to tangle with fools anymore. I have to limit my exposure to fools.

        I am looking at Sitka, Alaska. I have been there 4 times already. But it is just so expensive. But I am planning…….

        And Ugh No…homicidal rage….I am right there with you. I worked three jobs (THREE) to buy a little teeny tiny cabin on a river. My X stayed there a few times. It is so hard to type this..I found women’s sun glasses in a drawer (NOT MINE) and the cunt had left dozens of creamer container and sugar packets in the drawer. Half full. That brought rodents. I kept that place spotless.

        I sold the place at a decent profit within days. I briefly confronted him and he said


        Yeah….I know homicidal rage. And, I just can’t understand it. He called me from there, and we talked for hours. I guess she was lounging in my bedroom as we talked? He could not stay away from me. Why…why? Why would he take some whore to MY sanctuary?

        God help me get over the urge to seriously hurt him.

        • Tell me about it, Sylvia.

          After listening to kiwichump talking about lambing the ewes, I was watching “Open Range,” a western with Kevin Costner and Robert Duvall, last night. The movie ends (this isn’t a spoiler) with a lot of killing and cowboying. It seemed pretty good despite the fact that Kevin Costner hadn’t gotten laid in a decade. That’s why I am looking into dude ranches on other continents.

          • If you don’t mind the heat…Australia. They have ranches there the size of Rhode Island! Kiwi chump could help you know where to go. New Zealand is beautiful. I guess they have lots of sheep farms.

            It worries me…my desire to withdraw. Does it worry you? Or are we being smart?

            If you like forests, whales and delicious seafood…SE Alaska. Juneau, Ketchikan, Sitka, Skagway. I am already talking with a realtor in Sitka. It does not get bitter bitter cold there. (Tempest would not like it!)
            But it gets cold.

            I thought about Colorado…because of their 4/20 legality (yeah…I kind of dig it) but I am not sure. There is something about Alaska I love. The first time I went I thought…this is where I was born to be.

            You live in Austin..overcrowded, touristy, expensive. No wonder you are looking at dude ranches.

            Writing about him, almost made me call him and cuss him out in a rage. All that no contact work…gone! But I did not do it. I just imagined CN bashing me in the head with a 2 by 4.

            I actually had a moron friend say…Well, maybe you should call him and you would feel closure. She does not understand the term “pain shopping.” Or disordered freaks.

            I know he would love for me to call and “care” about what he is doing. No. No. No.
            The pain on the other end of that line…I would rather have a broken arm.

            • There is not enough harsh verbiage to eradicate all of your anger at your X. I did unleash insults, reasons, harsh emails on X up until the divorce. It would make me feel better temporarily but the rage would re-surface. There’s no palliative like time & that “getting a new life.”

              The other downside to continued contact with fuckwits is that it spurs your hope that you can get them to SEE, to UNDERSTAND how flawed they are, and what they did is wrong. But you cannot–it’s like trying to turn an armadillo into a stallion; ain’t gonna happen and you’ve wasted a lot of effort trying.

              [P.S. Yes, Alaska would be too cold for me, but I’ll come visit!]

              • I don’t mind heat. I am from Texas.

                People who say things like, “you should just call him for closure,” are Swiss friends. I might probe that relationship deeper to see why she would be so unkind to you. And no, never call him. There is nothing there but a world of pain.

                Tempest, there used to be armadillos the size of horses. Is that what you mean by a stallion? That’s my kinda ride!

                Match Girl will be forty next week. She turned 37 and started telling me every hour she needed a dog. We never had pets for years before. I had a cat as a kid. I was not only not a dog person, I was anti-dog. I once told off an Apple Store manager because he let dogs run around in the Georgetown store off their leash. Then we got the pup. He was eight weeks, so I had to spend hours a day with him. That’s how I came to love dogs so much. He was my heart and soul for the last year we were together. Then after D-Day when I went to see my family over Thanksgiving she stole the dog. And now I don’t even know if she still has him.

                So, to those chumps who might be tired of all the dog references, no worries. I am a reformed dog hater. There’s no judgment from me.

                Cheaters just seem to fuck up every relationship and fur babies are fair game too.

                Stupid fucking Match Girl bitch-ass cunt.

              • I love to see when you respond to something I write. I don’t know why…but you alway seem to peg what I am feeling. (Are you psychic….?).

                Tempest, I took my phone out to my bird feeder and then did not take it my Bowling Meet up.

                I want to tell him off so badly. Thinking of all the treachery. I felt that rage that makes your hands shake.

                And it would be as hopeless as trying to get an armadillo to be a stallion (stealing that).
                *I am SO GLAD I did not call him scummy scuzzy pathological ass.

            • Sylvia, I don’t think it’s weird or harmful to have the desire to withdraw. In fact, I think I reached Meh so quickly because of leaving my city. Now I didn’t want to move, mind you, but post divorce I could not afford a house or an apartment in my former city. So, I moved to a rural area mostly populated by Amish. They wave politely to me, but they mind their own business. And I don’t speak German. Geographically and physically, I live in a quiet, picture-postcard landscape. Gorgeous views everywhere. Quiet, peaceful, safe. Tons of nature at my doorstep. It has been very, very healing. The few non-Amish neighbors I have are the nicest, most helpful neighbors I’ve ever enjoyed. I do miss high-speed Internet and fine dining though. It is so wonderful to look out at this beautiful location and know that Cheater has never been here, seen these views, or tainted any of it in any way. And he has no idea where I live. It has given me peace of mind and a refuge.

              • Finding Bliss,
                I am so happy of you! I wish I could come there!

                Maybe we are like a wounded animal. We need to crawl in our den and lick our wounds. When I try to fall asleep tonight, instead of imaging the X being attacked by a pack hyenas or having wrestle a full grown bear, I will image being a cabin the woods.

                I like that…he has not “tainted” your new place. That is how I feel….he tainted my house. It may not be a mansion, but it is my house and I hate that he has used my bathroom and my tub and my plates, cups, sheets.

            • Howdy chumps, I hear rumours of interest in dude ranches! Don’t know any locally but could enquire. Not much “duding” around sheep, and it’s done on quad bikes mostly around here. If you go into the high country stations, it’s a different story. You could be riding in Lord of the Rings landscapes.
              In the great outdoors you can also scream all your anger at those fuckwits out of your system. I should know!!!
              The traitor’s whore killed his 2 dogs when they “split up”, if that was ever true… Then he tried to take one of our dogs with him when he left me. That’s when I got REALLY angry. “You’re not taking him to that dog killing whore!!!” Traitor: “He’ll be living with me.” “I don’t care, you’re under the influence of that dog killing whore so you don’t go near him!!! He’s a good dog, I won’t let you pervert ghouls near him !!!” I went nuts. I think he realised that day that I could actually get violent about something, not like the stories he made up about me poisoning his sorry arse.

              • If we chumps actually did all the poisoning, and beating, and cheating cheaters alleged we did we’d either all be a lot happier or overcome with shame. I’m glad you put your anger down in words here rather than taking it out on that dog-killing bitch.

        • We have plenty of assholes here in Alaska too. A lot of people come here to escape. Even assholes. But we have a lot of good people too. And when it’s cold and dark, we’re all in in together.

      • On second thought (post-hot-take thought?) don’t file a complaint. Just focus on winning what you need, and then maybe deal with that shithead lawyer. It’s enough just to make it through the legal system and custody battles sanely. No need to rile up a spiteful lawyer when you are just trying to make it.

        Ugh. So much damage just because he couldn’t not chase some pussy.

        • It is all about what you have the energy to manage. Or: choosing your battles.

          Some things, I let slide, simply because I did not have it in me to put up my dukes anymore.

          If I had to fight my X in court, we would both be in body bags. He doesn’t play fair, and he more money than me. I have a terrible temper. That is why I cannot own a gun.

          In fact, I told him at one point…If he did not stop antagonizing me, one of us was going to end up dead, or in prison or both dead. I wasn’t joking. He sort of knew I wasn’t being dramatic. He told a friend, (the one who tried to reason with him on my behalf, fool’s errand and embarrassing )

          “She is very very smart…but crazy” Putting me down. She showed me the email.

          No..not crazy. Tired of your rotten character. It’s called trying to have a relationship with a lying disordered freak!

    • I have noticed a common pattern among my friends, that often divorce attorneys reach a certain point where they feel done with your case, and next thing you know you’re getting the brush-off or half-assed advice. But an insult? That’s beyond the pale. When I read the title of this post I assumed it referenced a comment made by an X, not by someone’s attorney.

      A similar thing happened to me after we reached our final settlement agreement during court-ordered mediation. While I am happy with the agreement overall, there were a few small things I wanted to change that I agreed to under great pressure to wrap things up and after being reassured by my attorney that the agreement was not final.

      When I went back to make those changes, he threw his hands up in the air and said the last thing he wanted to do was go back to X’s attorney with “nibbles.” Then he told me no one likes to work with a “nibbler.” OMG. I just about lost it. But I kept my cool and calmly dressed him down, something I could never have done when I first started working with him because he is intimidating (which is why I hired him) and I was still a big ol’ chump.

      He backed down and made the changes, so we finalized the settlement and finished the divorce. But if he pulled a comment like that in a future situation where I needed him to make X to go fuck himself, I’d fire him in an instant. And I like the complaint suggestions, too–even if nothing happens, it’s still a royal pain in the ass to deal with and maybe he’ll think next about insulting the next person who needs his services.

  • DTMFA that lawyer, CL is spot on.

    Saddam called me vindictive because I wouldn’t remove the protective order. Nope, I am not, I just want to be safe. You just want to keep yourself and kids safe. That’s called living. I cannot imagine what I would say if my own attorney was basically telling me he is NOT on my side and does NOT have my back. I sure as hell wouldn’t pay him for that advice, I’d likely send a letter to him documenting why I was not paying him. Your attorney’s response should have been to advise you on the best course for preventing a change, period.

    • I was called vitriolic for telling the traitor 9 years of sex with me when he was in love with the ex-whore was worse no better than what Bill Cosby did. At least he did it to strangers, not to someone who believe he was her best friend and the love of her life. Yep, I am vitriolic alright. Think pH1

  • The narcissist is pushing your button and getting your own attorney to help. Labels like “spiteful” are cliche, like the “bitter” or “…like a woman scorned” labels, and show a complete lack of empathy. You need an empathetic attorney. Just like we say go No Contact with your XH, it’s time to move on from the attorney too. Disarm the narcissists! (And I mean that in the nicest possible way and am not recommending arm removal). Tell the attorney he is messing with your Meh.

  • Dearest Chump Free and Spiteful (CFS):

    Chump Lady never fails when it comes to getting sued. Her hard-won experience comes from battling it out in the family courts with the asshat she happened to breed with. All the while I was reading your letter I was thinking – dump that lawyer. Dump him. DUMP HIM!!! Lo and behold, that was Chump Lady’s advice. So good.

    Here’s your nut graf, CFS:

    So, if I am spiteful. Okay. I’ll embrace it. I have never asked for more, never changed the agreement, even refused alimony because I want nothing from him. I don’t respond to ex except by email. He should be happy with his affair partner. He should be moving on, but he enjoys being the victim far too much.

    “…Because I want nothing from him.” Why? Marriage is a partnership. Having children is a business deal. Your business partner broke his word. The dissolution of a business should have consequences for the moving party. Your ex is at fault. You might have divorced in a locality that is no fault (I have no idea who Noel Biderman is), but you can hold your X accountable. Make him pay. Make it hurt in his wallet area. Make him sorry he fucked with you. Make him limp when he walks because you reamed him out so bad. Make it so that he never fucks with you again. FUCK HIM UP!

    Then they can call you spiteful.

    • “Make him pay. Make it hurt in his wallet area. Make him sorry he fucked with you. Make him limp when he walks because you reamed him out so bad. Make it so that he never fucks with you again. FUCK HIM UP!”

      Then they can call you spiteful.

      After 36 years of putting up with an asshole who demeaned me to everyone, calling me a bitch while he led a double life I WILL FUCK HIM UP.

      Every single action was deliberate and calculated. There will come a day when he can no longer feed off of me. I will be called every name in the book. Yet I will take responsibility for MY actions. Yes, dearest asshole I AM a spiteful bitch, you’ve been telling that tale for years. How does it feel to live your lies? He will have to rent a hall for a pity party so grand.

  • I am the sane parent. I am not a perfect parent, but I do not have a character disorder and have all the normal, selfless love for my kid that everyone here does. My child’s father has been actively alienating her from me since she was at least three. He also is likely suffering from both a mental disorder and dementia. I always believed my love and my sanity would be enough.

    It wasn’t.

    She is 19. She won’t live with me unless I offer her boundary-less, non-consequential space (with lotsa cash). She tests me with double binds all the time. She acts abusively very often. She is self-destructive often.

    I get it, she’s 19.

    But the narrative here is often that Chumps by nature of their virtue and high shit consumption are immune to many of the ills that a divorce can visit on children. Just want to offer the perspective (based on experience) that this is not a guarantee.

    • Would it break your heart just to love her from a distance? If she is abusive, it would concern me that she might pull you into some drama. In America, the justice system has no common sense.

      Perhaps age and time will stabilize her and she will discover who the pillar of stability is.

      I am sorry.

      • Sylvia, thanks so much for reaching out and offering your kind words. I am loving her from a distance. I pray for her every day, and refuse to get caught up in the drama. It is s kind of mighty that is absolutely heartbreaking.

        • It is. I remember when I was 19, I was sort of bonkers. I think the hormones and all the rapid changes from child to woman due something to their brain chemistry.

          I know this is the digital age, but one thing I remember was cards. You could send her cards that tell her you love her. Just mail her cards throughout the month. It is something she can hold in her hands. She will remember these cards.

          I think all this hell we go through teaches us this: If we don’t look out for ourselves…no one else will. Not even family.

          But she will remember you loved her. And she will look back and see who was honest and sane.

    • I’m sorry, NoMoreNarcs. Losing a child to a fuckwit parent is even worse than losing the spouse. But you are being the good parent by setting limits and refusing to be held hostage by her love. I hope your daughter will come to see reason, and know that you are her emotional base (not her father), but if we’ve all learned anything from this, it is that life offers no guarantees.

      It would do neither of you any good to accede to daughter’s demands so that she will live with you. My 15 year old is so disrespectful sometimes that it crosses the boundary into emotional abuse. I don’t tolerate it, I issue consequences, but it is horrific to live with when it happens (and I actually had chest pains the other day after one episode with DD15). Your daughter, although not getting love directly from you right now, benefits by knowing that there ARE boundaries, and that to get along in this world she will have to respect other people.

      Our kids do model the ‘devalue’ behavior of our cheaters, but we have to play the long game of trying to make them better people, even when it pains us to do so. Huge hugs!

      • Perhaps she will understand when she has children of her own that you were a good parent setting healthy boundaries. In the meantime the cards are a great idea.

  • Dear Chump Free and Spiteful

    Sounds to me like your lawyer is from Switzerland. Be grateful that he let you know up front where you are with him. He did you a favour. He just told you that he does not believe in you and does not have your back. That’s all you need to know. Don’t let anyone like that be part of your life and certainly not on your payroll.

    For those who don’t know who Noel Biderman is – he was the cocksure CEO of Ashley Madison until a year ago when hackers hurt his feelings by publishing names of his clients. Poor sad sausage.

      • There are sites you can plug email addresses into to see if your cheater’s email was caught in the hack (but be careful not to use the ones that alert the person whose email you typed first). If you go back to August 2015 in the Private:General forums, some of those sites will be listed.

        There were also illegally-published lists on some computer/IT pages, but they were typically taken down after lawsuits were threatened. E.g., I got the entire list of my university’s AM emails (including my X’s) on one such list, but it disappeared within 48 hours.

  • When I was in the thick of an abusive relationship ( rich suitcase thrower, I’m gonna whoop your ass, I’m gonna kill you), I went to a FEMALE psychiatrist.

    When I was talking, I was sort of floundering, and I said, I am smart, right? Why am I treated like this? What is wrong with me?

    This was 15 years ago and I remember it with pin point clarity…her face was like a gargoyle of contempt.

    “Look, I am not some social worker, here to make you feel good. I am not here to tell you that you are smart.”

    It was one of the most unsettling moments of my life. Even now, it felt more abusive that suit case thrower.

    Just because someone can pass tests, and jump through hoops that society sets up to qualify for some professions, it does not mean they are kind or even competent.

    • Wow Sylvia! I’m very sorry you had to deal with additional mindfuckery from someone in a position of trust. I had a MC who once told me to “act with grace” after the slimy loser admitted to having an affair during a session. Talk about controlling your behavior with words. I did have a great social worker after the final d-day. First words out of her mouth were “well, isn’t he a fucking asshole”. Loved her 🙂

      • Yes! Thank you for acknowledging that…it was abusive. That bitch.

        Act with grace? Would she say that if you had been mugged , raped or robbed? I see no difference. In fact, a stranger hurting is is far less damaging than someone who we slept beside and loved.

        I did have a great Nurse Practitioner like your Social Worker. She wrote me a note for 2 weeks off from work after DDay. I was so grateful, I started to sob.
        She said, Well I would not send you back with a broken ankle, would I?

        She “got” it.

        • That was an abusive comment from the first therapist; how horrible, Sylvia. I’m glad you saw it for what it was. People who abuse their power are contemptible.

  • Cheater Free,
    Your attorney has revealed his true colors to you before you have undertaken the next round of legal proceedings. Now (hopefully) you can find an attorney who will truly look out for your — and your children’s — best interests and fight hard for you.
    Good luck. And keep Chump Nation posted.

  • It’s often a no-win situation from the beginning. Your spouse has spent so much of his/her time telling their friends what a terrible person you are to justify their A (while you sit blindly at home), that everyone already has a bad picture of you. I got looks from my wife’s COWs for a long time and had no idea why. But now I do.

    Then one day when you finally figure out what’s really going on….and usually after the obligatory chumpish stuff that we all did for several weeks/months/etc…….you finally wake up and stand up for yourself.

    Well, everyone’s been so used to viewing you as a doormat, and some evil despot that your spouse was describing, that when you start raising hell, throwing shit around and rocking the boat (i.e. not putting up with being lied to and used anymore and calling people out for their bullshit) — well, then you are just being “bitter,” and unfortunately, simultaneously fulfilling the perception of you that your spouse had already created.

    But you know what…..who the hell cares. People want to give you shit about finally standing up? They don’t like that you’re a little upset about having your life destroyed? Drop them and move on. Nobody with an ounce of empathy or an understanding of the situation will ever blame you.

    • Blindside,

      Such a good point. Cheaters aren’t content to stab a chump in the back and let us bleed to death. They go around and salt the earth so we have to make an entirely new life while they skate away on a cloud of sex and hormones. Fuckers.

      • Thanks to CL & CN I beat the fucker to the punch by telling everyone who would listen what he did to me & our family. At least when he started playing the “she’s crazy card” some of the people would have already heard the truth. Fucking loser asshat.

      • Yes, me too! Would not have done this without CN advice because I was covering for him and calling it “the high road.” For me, controlling the narrative has made a big difference in my recovery.

        He isolated me, and I found friends and family and coworkers galore who offered real support and encouragement when they heard my story.

        I believe this helped me reclaim my self respect, too. Also, telling my story helps me process what’s happened and helps me navigate the upheaval.

      • Yes, what cheaters do is unconscionable. But I’m a lot farther down the road than most of you, and I’m happy to say that the Fucktard so completely embarrassed himself after I was gone that whenever I run across anyone I knew from when we were together, they are very kind to me. Lies were told, oh yes they were, but I maintained my dignity and credibility and he did not. Not everyone buys that crap forever; at some point they start considering the source. I will add that making an entirely new life is not a bad thing. It’s custom designed and built to your own specs.

    • “Your spouse has spent so much of his/her time telling their friends what a terrible person you are to justify their A (while you sit blindly at home), that everyone already has a bad picture of you.”

      I can’t tell you how true this is. Here I was saying all these great things about my boyfriend (now EX). And then I found out that he was badmouthing me to others behind my back. Isn’t that nice? I had no clue as he’d smile to my face and make me think all these nice things. But when the truth came out and I became privy to the thoughts in his head, I knew exactly where I stood with him and what kind of charlatan I was dealing with. It was game over after that.

  • Whenever I hear divorced colleagues criticising their ex’s, my first thought is “there are two sides to every story”. People who believe gossipy crap are not worth having as friends, so if they turn away from you because your ex makes you look bad — then it’s a blessing. A form of natural selection?

    I only ever speak the facts about ex’s if someone signals they need to know. I particularly enjoying saying “I didn’t appreciate the fact that he and his GF tried to poison me”. That usually shuts them up.

  • Sorry the lawyer you picked is such a turd. Lawyers, of all people, should know the crap these nasty, loser cheaters are capable of. I think society wants everyone to lose all accountability for everything they do.

    One of the best things ever was the look of horror and disgust on my lawyer’s face when I told the story of the things ex had done/was doing. All the while, at the same time, he was playing Mr. Good Guy to the world, and channeling Satan.

  • Chump Free – Your letter and CL’s comments are so important, they show that the usual court/lawyer spiel of “you have to be the better/less demanding person” during and after the divorce process does not work with Cluster Bs.

    I have been called spiteful by my X for refusing to roll over and let him do whatever he wanted to do. I always remember a quote I found online “to the privileged, fairness feels like oppression.”

    I adapted it to fit the entitled high conflict Cluster B-ish Xs most of us are dealing with: “to high conflict people, fairness feels like oppression.”

    Our cheaters have grown used to their chumps spackling and making excuses for them for years. When that comes to the end by their chump filing for divorce, cheaters don’t have the coping skills to deal with less privilege (i.e. cake) so they go on the offensive. This is why new chumps you need to make sure you have an escape plan, all copies of financials, a safe place to live, and as much cash as possible when you leave.

    It is not spite to defend ourselves and our best interests after years of accommodating to and catering to the needs of a high conflict person. Cold online civility is all I demonstrate towards my X because of our shared custody agreement. Once our kiddo is 18, it will be absolute no contact. This is part of the hard earned freedom of divorcing a fuckwit, as is the power to say “no” to custody agreement changes that are not in a chump’s best interest.

  • And you will know when you have got your head back on straight when ANYONE says shit like that (you are spiteful) and you just give them the ” I can’t Believe you just said that” look and walk away.

  • One person’s definition of “spite” is another (wiser) person’s definition of “lessons learned and not repeated.”

    Embrace the lessons learned – they made you smarter and more savvy. And fire that stupid ass lawyer and get someone who holds his duty to be your absolute best advocate to heart and in practice.

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