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Dear Chump Lady, How long do you think this affair was going on?

greatest-weekend-dad-ever-family-ecard-someecardsDear Chump Lady,

My husband of 6 years (together for 10) left me and our (then) 6-month-old son 8 months ago.

He said he hadn’t loved me for “2 years,” he didn’t love me any more and he “didn’t want this life.” In fact he went as far as to say he “didn’t love me, but didn’t hate me.” I had his baby six months prior, after four years of trying. WTF?!

This all happened several weeks after he had stayed the night at my friend’s house after a party we had both been at. (I’d gone home at midnight to relieve my mum of babysitting duties.) He’d left the party (with my “friend” of 24 years!) and gone back to her house “for drinks” where apparently he just passed out. They both swore nothing happened and, chump that I am, I believed them, despite that uneasy nagging feeling (that I believe is called intuition).

Several weeks later he left.

Turns out she left her husband (in the middle of IVF — ended up getting her eggs frozen) the same week. Her husband, by the way, was my husband’s best man’s brother. Mmm hhhhh.

After he left, and up until I found out by other means last week, he wouldn’t tell me where he lived. As we had a child together I found this unacceptable and very odd.

He also made up an imaginary girlfriend (as it turns out) several weeks after he left. He told me about this imaginary girlfriend because, and I quote, he “wanted to be honest” with me.

He has been a good dad since then (but all on his terms — the overnight visit is done at my, previously our, house and I have to camp at my parents’ or friends’ houses).

Last week I found out that he and my “friend” are living together not 20 minutes from where I live.

He tried to deny it when confronted but then, realising the game was up (I had recent proof), said he’d only been seeing her for two months and he “didn’t leave me for her,” he left for “the reasons we’ve already talked about.” (A load of old bullshit, which at the time I couldn’t believe he was saying and actually made me think I was going mad).

My question is — do you think, from your experience of chumps, that in fact this was going on for far longer than he is admitting? I am now imagining that perhaps it could be months or even years longer than I think!!

Will it work out I wonder? The thought of this woman being my son’s stepmother is nauseating.

My “friend” is a bit of a basket case and is very highly strung, but has a phenomenal figure so I’m thinking my ex is about as shallow as a puddle. Good luck to her I say! But God, it hurts…

Ever yours.

Naive English Chump

Dear Naive English Chump,

I think you’re asking the wrong set of questions. Instead of “how long did it go on?” and “will it work out?” how about  — “Where can I get an aggressive lawyer and an enforceable custody agreement?”

He has been a good dad since then (but all on his terms — the overnight visit is done at my, previously our, house and I have to camp at my parents’ or friends’ houses).

No, NO, NO! Why are you letting him set the terms? Do you even HAVE legal terms? Do not set this precedent! He is NOT a “good dad.” Good fathers do not abandon their 6-month-old infants. They don’t get to waltz into care-taking as it suits them. Good fathers do not make postpartum mothers sleep on other people’s fold-out sofas.

He wants to walk out on you and your son? Then he gets all the consequences that go with that decision — divorce, enforced child support, and a custody schedule. Frankly, if I were you, I would press for full custody. Any man who can abandon his infant son isn’t going to look like Father of The Year to a judge. And not only did he abandon you all, he didn’t even leave a return address. I hope you’re documenting that for your lawyer.

Start calling the shots. I know it’s absolutely galling that your former “friend” would be anywhere near your child, but the fact is, she probably already has been in your home and with your child. (You disappear, remember?) How lovely to have the frisson of the affair continue. How desperate must she be to have him now she’s left her husband. Leave them alone to their deep fuckupedness. You take YOUR child and go live in YOUR space WITHOUT their presence. Remove yourself from the crazy.

It’s very difficult to do no contact when you have children together, but you can practice super strong boundaries. You can distance yourself with scheduling software, and brief business-like texts about your son. You don’t need this creep in your kitchen heating up bottles. Here are your choices:

1.) Get a custody schedule and abide by it. It will feel like a hostage drop off for awhile, but eventually it becomes tolerable. Upside to you — you get free time. He has to figure out parenting on his OWN, without your assistance. When he fucks up? DOCUMENT.

2.) No custody schedule? No obligation to do jack shit for him. Talk to your lawyer, but from what I understand an absence of an enforceable order means you’re winging it until you have one. No need to wing it HIS way. Wing it YOUR way. He LEFT.

3.) Consider getting him to sign away his parental rights. A radical move, but perhaps a possible one seeing as this guy is not deeply invested in being a father. Downside — no child support for you. But you might save yourself years of heartache if you can get this man permanently out of you and your son’s life.

Naive, often we insert ourselves in the “co-parenting” process because we think we can manage the other parent. Everything from making them see what they lost, to tying ourselves into knots of accommodation. Behind this is fear — that without us the checked out parent will abandon again, neglect, give over to addiction, parent wrong, fail to do the book reports… We tell ourselves that our pretzeling (like sleeping on your parents’ sofa) is what is Best For The Children. But what’s best for the children is a sane parent. One with a life independent of fuckwits. You don’t control fuckwits. You only control yourself.

So wake up to that reality right now. You have a window of opportunity — to fight for how much contact this loser has with your son. I’d fight that battle first. Then, focus on gaining that new life. Being the sane, rock-solid parent to your son.  You’re going to be a wonderful mom who parents her way with her values. You’re going to have the intimacy that comes from raising your little boy on your terms. What’s he got? A “basket case” with nice boobs. You win.

Now, I’ll answer your questions. How long did it go on? Longer than he said it did. There should be some cheater calculus on reported length of affair vs. actual affair. Probably while you were pregnant, for sure, if you want my educated guess reading at Chump Nation. Will it last? Who knows? Probably not. But it won’t matter — you’ll be at meh by then. And sleeping in your own bed 24/7.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Any “man ” who would abandon his wife and infant child for some whore because she has a “phenomenal figure ” gets what he deserves. A whore.

    Follow CL’s advice. Make this loser face the consequences he had created for himself.

    • Hello-My Name is Fabulous. That is it, Anita.

      Exactly. I can’t go down the “attractiveness” road. My X is like Dorian Grey and the Universe saw fit to bless him with preternaturally good looks. I pray that his partying and drug use will age him. It lends him a tremendous amount of arrogance in an already bloated ego. It is sickening the way women who have no moral compass act like he is the HillBilly Bradley Cooper. They even offer to do his laundry.

      I would have rather he looked like a hobbit and have some integrity and loved me.

      Cheating is not about looks. I have seen some of the OWs photos, and…Sleestack is the best description of the main one. Another (not confirmed) has tattoos on her chest, neck and hands, and about 15 piercings. She is 23 and is a drug dealer. She brags about it on her FB page….about being a “gangsta”.
      One is attractive, with 4 children from 4 dads and she is a convicted felon who talks, on her FB…about “busting some bitches up, I’m a head knocker “…and “I know all you jealous Hos lurking on my FB page”. She is a classy chick.

      See Naive….don’t research. There is nothing good to discover.

      • Sylvia, I’m wondering how she was able to escape from prison!? I’m sure she belongs to the Whore Gang and not the Crips!

        • No More- You made me laugh for the first time in many days!
          Thank you so much.

          It is so bad. (sob)

          What a joke. What a farce.

          Watching documentaries with me, mowing my yard, kissing me, helping my bathe my dogs, going to the library with me, washing my cars…while texting with these gansta bitches.


          • Sylvia–You, like most of us, were Truman in The Truman Show. Living what we thought was an honest life, enjoying some tender moments & laughs, but all the while we were being conned for someone else’s amusement. And finding out our “legitimate” life was a farce is more painful than almost anything else we will experience.

            If it helps, the pain dulls to incredulity. Eventually.

            • Wow Tempest, once again you’ve hit it. Truman in the Truman Show captures my feelings about the past 10 years exactly. Same experience as Sylvia’s and the same questions we all ask, like Naive EC, how long did it really go on for, what was real?
              So true and it makes me feel sick to my stomach. I remember the only insightful thing the MC ever said to us. that it was an existential disgreement. Phew, makes me dizzy to think about all this, I try to avoid thinking about it this way because I almost get vertigo, but it’s the truth.
              People who haven’t experienced this don’t get it, you don’t see any bruises on us from this.

            • Tempest, that is so true about the Truman Show!! I have often drawn this analogy myself. I have so many details from his 9 year “double life,” and when I think about his role in “our” life (my kid’s and mine), I can’t see him as anything other than a good actor playing a role. And we were all the poor unknowing Trumans, really believing that this life with him was real. Only it wasn’t. We were all just being played for his comfort, convenience and amusement.

            • The Truman Show!! Yes, that’s it exactly! And what Kiwichump said, “People who haven’t experienced this don’t get it, you don’t see any bruises on us from this.” Yep, so true. To realize that he was just an actor all those years! People just don’t get how this plays with your mind and memories. They don’t how traumatizing it is to realize the life you were living was a total lie, but you didn’t know it. And all those people who say “get over it” and “move on”, they have no clue what we are dealing with. I honestly wanted to go out and buy a fake Academy Award for my ex and give it to him. He’s THAT great of an actor.

              • This ^^^^ is why I re-named mine Oscar (referring to the trophy). Mind-boggling, really, that someone even would want to lie so much. Practice makes perfect, I suppose, and he was brain-breakingly good at it, as I didn’t find out for a decade.

            • Tempest, It does help. Reading that was like a drink of water. I really am like Truman.
              I wake up worried…..worried about what is going to happen next. Something bad. Unexpected. Bizarre.

              My mistake might be (still…I am hard headed) trying to rush this. I went to Meet Ups, and it makes me nuts. I miss my X. Not the betrayal but the ease and comfort and the excitement we had together.

              We had that rare (now I see FAKE) thing where we were always kissing and having sex but we also could cuddle and talk for hours (if he was sober…idiotic)

              Something about going around other men sets me Waaaaaaayyyyyy back. Like concerned about myself back. Like staring at the ceiling back. Blast. 🙁

              I guess it means I am not ready. To even socialize with men.

              * I never even cheated on him in my thoughts. I was dedicated to a lie.
              It is Truman.

              • Sylvia, Meet-up isn’t for looking the next guy. It’s for you being you Best Self. It seems to me that you are Thinker, Traveler, a Major in Psychology/Personality Disorders, a lover of animals and I’m sure there is more! Meet-ups it to hang with people like yourself. I have yet to go to any, because I enjoy my time by myself. 🙂

            • OMG, thanks for the Truman show reference. That describes my story to a tee. I’ll submit my story separately, but thanks for making my day.

  • Yep, probably goes way back. My STBX had affairs throughout both pregnancies among his 100’s and said those “didn’t count” because his therapist said tons of men who are nervous about fatherhood have affairs during their wives pregnancies. I love how the idiots justified it. (Idiot therapist and idiot poor excuse for a husband…)

    (I am still so angry about the diseases he exposed his unborn children and I to.)

      • 3 years dating, 1 year engagement, 20 years of marriage. Traveled extensively for work (sales- fab job for somatic actor narc.) He her to “care about 3” of the women and had long term relationships with them. The rest were mainly gym flies, one- brighter hotel bar hussies and Ho-workers. I met him at 18, (him 25) he was my 1st boyfriend. When something was suspicious and I’d inquire. I’d wind up in tears apologizing. What a chump.

        He admitted to the secret life when I said we needed marriage counceling to save marriage for kids after he told me he was in love with whore at work who also slept with her married boss 1 year prior. I didn’t know the extent of his lies/life and I guess he came clean to not have to reconcile. Thamk goodness in retrospect. I was so freaked out about my future I may have stayed longer. (SAHM for 18 years.)

        Turns out he doesn’t have a college degree, never played D1 basketball, he has lied about his entire life to everyone!

        D should be final in November. I’m working 3 jobs, accepting a shit settlement to br done with his ass, and thankful I survived the past 14 months since D-day last Aug.

        • If he weren’t so unbelievably abominable, he’d be a laughable and pathetic poster boy for TEXTBOOK Cluster B. A demonic caricature. Same comment applies to Naive’s monstrosity.

          I don’t know how you survived, but I’m beyond glad you did. Your kids, like Naive’s baby, have a terrific mother. (I’m awed, too. Common theme for me here. I’m pretty resilient, usually. This is a hell unlike any other.)

    • Didn’t count!?
      That is some ballsy gaslighting. And trying to make it credible by citing his therapist.
      What a tool.

      • Our Marriage Counselor actually told me – to my face- that the pursuit of happiness is in the American Constitution (it isn’t – its the Declaration of Independence) it was therefore @sshole’s human right to have affairs! I told her that it was my human right not to be married to a cheating lying idiot and sacked her.

    • “because his therapist said tons of men who are nervous about fatherhood have affairs during their wives pregnancies.”

      My jaw dropped on the floor. I am speechless and disgusted. what a nice way to welcome your newborn child you created into this world, by ruining the stable family unit and screwing over the mother of your child. Tons of men huh? That therapist should never have another client again. I wonder of they would say that if it happened to them, asshole.

      • Therapist suggest he had a sex addiction right away. I think Snarc liked that at 1st (you know that’s kinda cool in a Tiger Woods kind of way, plus he felt like a stud) Later he decided that wasn’t so flattering after all and suddenly he did not have sex addiction, just a “high sex drive”

        I hated that therapist whom I never met. Interestingly he quit therapy cold turkey after a few months into it and acted really weird for a few days. (We lived in the same house for 12 months! He wouldn’t leave and I couldn’t afford to.) My therory is the idiot therapist finally figured out he was a socio-Narc and shared that with Snarc who immediately quit therapy after he wasn’t getting his ego petted and his justifications he sought.

    • I despise the “because it happens it is therefore acceptable and normal and understandable” argument.

      Hey dumb-ass therapists reading this: Murder happens. Rape happens. Terrorism happens. Emotional abuse happens. Child abuse happens. Domestic violence happens.

      None of those things are acceptable or to be normalized.

      Betraying, abusing and abandoning one’s family for some strange is not acceptable just because it happens.

      The only thing to be understood is the chump’s psychology of putting up with this crap.

    • And one more thing, these men are “nervous” about fatherhood and their way of coping is by sticking their dick in another woman’s vagina. This makes total sense doesn’t it. (eye roll). How about the women out there that will be pushing out an 8 lbs human being from a womb, having body parts torn apart, and dealing with all the excruciating pain. How come we don’t go out and find some dick to satisfy us, since our nervousness is a million times worse. If that’s how these men cope with nervousness, then we don’t need men like this in our lives. Complete selfish assholes, who don’t consider remotely how the pregnancy and motherhood will affect their spouses… unbelievable level of selfishness.

      • I can just picture it. Wife lying in hospital bed. Doctor says “you’re dilated to 4 cm,” to which wife responds, “Honey, before the next contraction, get Paul in here! I need his dick in my mouth NOW!!!”

        With the marriage counselor in the corner saying to the husband, “Don’t worry Carl. Your wife has anxiety about the contractions. It’s perfectly normal for her to need to suck another man’s penis under these circumstances. Hold her hand and apply a cool washcloth to her forehead.”

      • My hypothesis is that they are not worried about fatherhood. They know that having a child will end their centrality to the marriage because parent, especially in the early days after a baby is born, must focus on the child and the adjustment to being a family of 3 instead of just a couple. Narcissists literally can’t share attention.

        • “Peter Pan” made it a habit to complain that I wasn’t giving him enough attention after our first was born. So sorry I have to care for this newborn baby……. are you?! kidding me?!

          • Well then why didn’t he try taking care of the newborn all by himself on his own for 24/7. Let’s see if he would have even had the energy to complain?

        • LovedAjackass, I so agree with your post. Then why do these men decide to have children then? They can remain childless and be the center of attention for the rest of their lives. It’s ok not to have children and there are other people out there who don’t want children either. Having children is a conscious decision that people make. If they know it will end their centrality, then don’t have kids! But not, they no only have kids, but crush the mother and their own child. It’s so messed up I can’t even fathom it sometimes.

          • Some of them like the extra air of legitimacy that being a parent affords them, so that they can carry on their tawdry affairs with the veneer of social acceptance.

        • Good point. Or maybe it’s the wild oats theory. Once they have secured a pregnancy they look for another woman to breed with, no need to invest anymore in the first one. I’ve known men like this, they have a lot of baby mothers and keep breeding with new ones. They are not nervous. It’s an investment strategy.

          • kiwi chump said: “It’s an investment strategy.”

            Kiwi, as a person who knows about animals and breeding, I would like to assure you that not every male human is such a fucking animal. There are many out there who care for their offspring and would rather die than abandon his kids.

            There is nothing that angers me more than deadbeat dads who fuck around on their pregnant wives. They knew when they fucked you exactly what the outcome could be.

            Don’t enable man children to get off scot free, ladies. Dump a cheater.

            • She never said ‘every male’. She only said she have known men like this.I’m sure you have your own fair share of knowledge about the same kind of women too.

    • I almost forgot this precious nugget– it was also so hard for him (snif) when I was pregnant and “out of shape and overweight.” He couldn’t satisfy his high sex drive needs because he couldn’t get turned on by the way I looked. Meanwhile, I was one of those pregnant women who was quite affected by the whole blood-flow thing and was seriously amorous.

  • Hasn’t loved you for two years, and yet made a baby with you during that time? Scum. Something in there is full of lies, but it doesn’t really matter what it is. You’re free of him; at least he’s not still trying to live with you and convince you the affair is over. The marriage is over, and he’s still lying to you when he doesn’t really even have anything to gain from it.

    Being a single mom to an infant is HARD but not as bad as being hurt and lied to by the person (people) supposed to have your back and protect you. Your life will be better without them in it.

    Because you don’t have a legal agreement yet, you’re stuck looking backwards because you haven’t got anything to look forward into yet. A little bit of analysis is okay, it can sometimes help with the closure, and help you figure out what you are or are not willing to put up with in the future. Or you can just assume the worst, shrug, and move on out of it.

    • True–and there’s the answer: he’s been having affairs for 2 years (at least), which is what started the phase of “I don’t love you.” Because these cheaters always get things back-assward; they don’t have affairs because they fall out of love, they “fall out of love” once they have an affair.

      • ^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Alert-Alert-Alert!!!All newbies reading today….read this, memorize this, live this piece of truth.

        • This is SOOOOOOOO fucking true..beautifully stated. I realized it was AFTER she was fucking her new Mr Wonderful she laid that line on me that she didn’t love me anymore and the classic “it never did feel right”…after 24 years. Fuck her and all cheaters the more I read the more I just can’t take them.

          • I got the blame shifting version, “You never loved me” huh?
            Thanks for letting me know, I’d been under the assumption I did. Silly me.

            • When the “marital problems drove me to it” didn’t fly with DD #2, he tried, “I had an affair because I thought your mother didn’t love me anymore.” That didn’t work either. Even a 13-year old (at the time) saw through that bullshite.

      • Tempest,
        “they don’t have affairs because they fall out of love, they “fall out of love” once they have an affair.”

        Absolute truth! Thank you for stating it so clearly. They create the situation that results in their changed feelings…and then blame the chump for it.

      • Here’s why Tempest is Chump Lady’s moderator! THAT is the absolute truth! My ex was acting “normal” and then Tim Whore-tons Coffee Snatch declared to Jeffrey Dahmer that she was getting divorced and then his feelings changed, AKA “I don’t love you anymore.” I doubt he’s capable of truly loving someone. He only loved the cake and the reflection of himself in my face.

          • No, I have not as I don’t know him and I only met Whore-ton once at a summer party. She was “in my face” all smiley. I had NO CLUE she was having secret before work coffee dates with my then husband for nine years. A year after the party, I saw her email to my husband. She said something like, “I didn’t get a chance to talk with you at the party……..” Yeah, “…….” My ex purposely didn’t talk with her even though they had secret coffee dates before work and were close friends. Anyway, they have been divorced for almost two years. Divorce was final early October 2015 and my ex wasted no time turning the morning coffee dates into an intimate drinks date until almost 1:30am. I caught him out with her October 7, 2015. He’s a fast predator! She wanted him? She can have him! He deserves someone like her and she deserves someone like him. I hope they are “happy.”

            • Sorry, wrong date. October 7, 2014. About six weeks after we “celebrated” our 20th wedding anniversary. Also about six weeks after we purchased four round-trip tickets to take the family on our “dream” vacation to Alaska. And six months after we my husband and I went to Sandals for the first (and only) time to celebrate our 20th. We had a wonderful time. So “in love.” While we were there and said we should book another Sandals trip for the following year. We came home and kept talking about how we should go again the following year. And then eight months later he no longer loves me and “hasn’t been happy in ten years but just didn’t know it.” And my mind and memories shouldn’t be all fucked up after remembering what my life and our marriage was like?! Karma bus……

      • I did not know you were the moderator, I thought you were a physician!

        Yes….it is a deliberate CHOICE to abandon the couple unit and share their energy with “THE OTHER”.
        They fall out of love once they have the affair.

        I could actually feel Rasputin’s intense energy leaving me….when I dialed into what was happening. It was as real as gravity.

        • ‘I could actually feel Rasputin’s intense energy leaving me….when I dialed into what was happening. It was as real as gravity.’

          This is actually how I knew cheater narc ex was cheating. I’d felt it as I literally watched him get deeper and deeper into an ‘inappropriate’ relationship w/the secretary at work (they are living cliches). When I felt it a second time 6 years later, it didn’t take much checking to confirm; I think he’d been involved w/OW #2 for just a couple of weeks by then.

          Then of course the ‘I was so unhappy’ sad sausage whining started. Funny, a few weeks before he’d been planning our future retirement together, spontaneously telling me he loved him (rare from him), and we were having better and very frequent sex, because he’d been treating the kids and I better. But everybody above is right; first they accept the new kibble source, THEN they fall out of love w/us.

          Toddlers in grown up bodies.

        • “”I could actually feel Rasputin’s intense energy leaving me….when I dialed into what was happening. It was as real as gravity.””

          Yup..! I’ve described when my wife’s affair was finally in the open after all her lies and weekends away it was like some giant Tetris game and all the pieces just came together all at once. I would have NEVER suspected it…I trusted her. God looking back I was so stupid. That was one valuable lesson.

          • I struggled so much with that as well! It was SO obvious for SO many years AFTERWARD. I hated (still hate actually) how completely stupid I felt/feel. I mean seriously, mystery hotels called asking about our stay, mysterious phone outages no one else had, even f-ing scratches on his body on many occasions over the years, that were always from the cables at the gym. When he was cold & distant, I’d get myself to the gym, make sure I didn’t weight over my allowed number, buy him some gifts, make favorite foods, UGH! Those were the times he was screwing poeple-DUH, and there I was cowering around making sure I was being the perfect wife so he’d be nicer to me. OMG, I am cringing even writing this…. 24 years of double life (dating, marriage, 2 kids…) It was all a big lie. The Truman Show reference really resonated with me. But, I admittedly still have trouble getting past feeling like a complete idiot. I guess we believe what we want to believe is true. Also, my therapist says its so hard for normal, honest, good people to believe/relate to that kind of BS because to us it is outrageous, unbelievable, and something we could never do. That really spoke to me as well.

            The other thing I hated early on was how completely embarrassed I was. I didn’t share here, or with anyone but the closest of friends early on from pure shamed embarrassment. I still feel stupid to this day, but I am no longer embarrassed. Sharing with people getes me advise, wisdom, and the reality check that he is screwed up – it’s not that I am undesirable.

            • OMG finally a good therapist!I felt the same way but the more you are able to talk about it objectively the closer you get to “meh”. That’s my goal – not there yet. Still trying to condition myself to repeat how awful he was and forget the “nice” things he said and did because they werent real.

              • I have been blessed with a GREAT therapist. She saved my life I think. I wish I could share her with all of you!!! One session she got very stern with me and said she was completely fed up with me defending him to her and I MUST accept that I am in a completely abusive relationship. She was not going to put up with my inherent chumpdom and has helped me see the reality… just like Chump Nation does for us. 🙂

            • I was exactly the same! Completely embarrassed I would always cover for him and protect him. I didn’t want any one to think he was a bad person or judge me. So when I finally left after the third affair I was no longer embarrassed but it was so hard for anyone to believe that he would do this. Now I tell anyone and everyone why my marriage ended and I feel no shame whatsoever. I was also able to clue on VERY easily after the first time. The one week madly in love, the next complete coldness and avoidance. The first two times I was pissed and he knew it, the third time (28 weeks pregnant) I was scared and bent over backwards to please him/compete with the other woman. When I had my daughter I realised what a chump I was being and how I did not want to set this example for her….. She made it easy for me to leave!

      • Or stated otherwise, cheaters rewrite history to justify or at least minimize the start of their cheating (i.e., “I fell out of love with YOU, and some time LATER fate sent me OW”).

        If you want a good estimate of when an abandoner started cheating, press them as to when they “fell out of love” and know that the cheating goes back ***at least*** that far. No one with cheater morals “falls out of love” then waits years or even months to start rutting. Lack of impulse control (by inability or by choice) is at the heart of cheating after all.

        • Thanks everybody for the kind words.

          nomar, you make it sound so romantic. I wish I could find somebody special to blow up my life with, and get me some rutting. That’s what I’ve been missing is the surreptitious rutting.

        • So “I’ve been unhappy for years” translates as “I’ve been cheating for years”. God they are all so unoriginal! One of my friends just caught her husband cheating. He’s adamant it was once and (drum roll) it happened because he was (sob) unhappy! Strangely, when I saw him a couple of weeks before the discovery he was the chirpiest I’d ever seen him. And when my ex left me 3 years ago, his only comment was “the pathology is equal in marriage breakups”. In retrospect sounds like the unsympathetic defensiveness of a seasoned cheater.

  • Did he say that he lied to “protect you from further pain”? “Never meant to hurt you”? “It just happened”? “The heart wants what the heart wants”? Do they not realize they are walking cliches? (Ans: they do not.)

    You are a superhero and your son will know it. Your ex is a slimy little insect.

    As far as how long it will last, I have no scientific evidence but I wonder if they stick together to prove to everyone that it’s “true love” and was “meant to be” despite whatever misery they may feel from having chosen a cheater as a partner.

    Not your circus and no longer your monkeys.

  • Hey English, I just wanted to say I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. Awful. My ex also started his affair when our baby was just 6 weeks old (if not before that), and I only found out when my baby was only 7 months old. It’s disgusting.

    This isn’t legal advice, but I just wanted to say, there are no hard and fast rules about child contact. Obviously, you cannot ‘frustrate’ contact between your ex and your son, but nor is there a standard way of child contact, particularly as your son is so young. Overnights are not a given, at his age, nor is you having to be turfed out of your house while he stays. Protect your son’s best interests, and yours also. It’s great that you are supporting contact between father and son, but don’t bend over backwards and put yourself out for it to happen the way your ex wants it to happen.

    • Many jurisdictions don’t expect infants to spend nights away from mom until they’re at least 2 years old. (Even easier to justify if you’re breastfeeding, so if you are, don’t stop!). Let him TAKE the baby occasionally for visitation for a day (or far less if you’re breastfeeding, even a half day only) – to HIS place, where he’ll need a crib, a high chair, boxes of diapers and wipes, etc. That’s what PARENTS do.

      • Like Karen E says – you betcha he’ll need diapers etc. and don’t forget the top of the line child car seat and stroller $$$. Insist that your child be transported in the safest equipment.

        • My X always wanted to take one of my dogs with him when he went away. I would never let him. He would practically beg (I have no idea why) and I would literally laugh in his face.

          I did not trust my dogs in his care. He was too casual, too reckless, too laid back about hydration, snacks, loud radio in their ears, leash use, climate control, he drove too fast.

          But I trusted my heart, my life, my health to this person?

          I was a colossal fool not to see it.

          That is an exquisite hell- to have to let your baby around someone who is ruthless and evil.

        • Good points, I bet it’s handy to turf you out of your house and use the nappies, formula etc. YOU have bought. He doesn’t need to plan or get organised. Lazy cheating bastard.

  • Liars lie and cheaters cheat. The truth will most likely trickle out over time as people begin to share pieces of the puzzle and you put them together. That is not any fun. But what you can know for sure (and you know this because you have been stressed and scared many times during this relationship and you never bones anyone else as a coping mechanism, right?) is that he is immature and seriously lacks moral compass, and those are traits that would cause you to refuse to employ any babysitter. Father is not equal to good father. The less influence he has over children in life, the better.

    Sending strength.

    • Amiisfree, “Liars lie and cheaters cheat. The truth will most likely trickle out over time as people begin to share pieces of the puzzle and you put them together. That is not any fun.” **THIS** I once told a cheater… it’s a culmination of many pieces of a puzzle that slowly start to fit together into one GIANT FUCKED UP PICTURE. That’s how cheaters sometimes get caught! Can’t lie and pretend forever…

    • Agreed. Rememberty that he seems to only confess when caught.

      Also, one could try compare notes with that woman’s husband for a timeline if one feels such info would help in the healing and grieving.

      • Yes, this is how I found out that things started long before my ex admitted, even after his “come to Jesus” tell-all. He still lied even when I offered him what was essentially immunity. They lie because they can.

        • Yes asswipe lied and continued to lie when it longer mattered or was too his advantage. They lie cause thats who they are.

              • “you’re not the boss of me!” Oh my gosh. Stbx would say that when I’d say, “come sit down for dinner.” And I’d be like – huh? Just come eat! But he felt free to ‘boss’.
                Yes – lying and withholding information. Because it’s all about control. And they cannot even perceive that they are being told what to do. Lying comes naturally to them. Stbx has been spinning some doozies to our daughter. I asked my daughter if her dad’s gf (that he left and moved in with in with in the xpensive house) helped her with homework. Gf takes her for hair and nails and short shorts….but does she help with homework. Dad doesn’t help and she has an F in science homework to prove it. And I got the nastiest look and how dare I talk about OW. As mom – doing all the home stuff..I don’t go out. I’m at home maintaining house and dogs and everything he bailed on. I chase after my kid and her Honors program she’s slacking on. But Disneyland dad and sparkly
                22 yo gf are held up. I’m the. 56 y.o. Old fogey that dad’s coworker saved him from I guess. Talk about being devastated.

              • Oh, Notnew.

                What a rotten situation.

                Poor daughter, trying to please Daddy. Imagine how she feels knowing that creeps like her own father only value sex and superficiality. No matter how smart his beautiful daughter is, he only sees T and A. His whore can’t be much older than she is. What a mind fuck.

                The good news, for you, is that she treats you this way precisely because you won. She doesn’t need to “win” you or impress you because she knows you love her and want the best for her.

                Give time, time. She has also been dealt a shit sandwich. She’s going to be really disgusted when she realizes just what her dad’s situation means. Being young, trying to be “friends” with the whore, she is buying into his story. It’s a story that only works with young girls.

                Have you ever seen ‘Hope Floats’? It has an emotional scene of the little girl throwing herself at her asshole cheating father (who clearly wants to get away from her as fast as possible) and the mother has to just watch.

                Keep believing in her, don’t give up on her, take the long view. She’s going to need a lot of support.

  • “My question is — do you think, from your experience of chumps, that in fact this was going on for far longer than he is admitting? I am now imagining that perhaps it could be months or even years longer than I think!!”

    Naive English Chump, what happened to you is awful. And the answer to your questions, are yes, it is quite likely this was going on for a while. He said he hasn’t loved you for 2 years, so perhaps at least that long. And yet he created a child with you. Your husband is mentally off. There is no one in their right mind who would act this way and cruelly and callously abandon their wife and newborn child. It takes a certain amount of character disturbance to do what he did. It’s inhumand and unconscionable.

    And I’m wondering if he’s a sociopath or psychopath. The amount of lack of empathy is just off the charts. He makes my skin crawl. I think you’re dealing with a mental deviant and it is in your best interest and of your child’s to get away from this type of psycho character. You should seriously take a look at who you’re dealing with. He’s not normal. And as others have said, to protect yourself from this psycho.

    • Y’all reminded me of something I haven’t thought about since February. Match Girl in our final days repeatedly said she hadn’t been happy for the last three years. After a steady diet of Chump Nation I deduced back then (February of this year) that this was her secret cheater code for: “I cheated on you three years ago.” I went back through my calendar and saw that, yes, she had been on a business trip three years ago. I did a gut check; it checked out. I was still in written contact with her at this point, and I asked her if Match Stick was the first time she cheated on me. She replied: “Thanks for never giving a shit about me.” Cunt.

      That I forgot about a critical part of my untangling and a major bit of her gas-lighting script is a huge sign of healing. And look at that, it’s Tuesday. Not even close to meh, but it’s something.

      • My ex mentioned it was the past 4 years…you are probably right in that this is when their affairs began in earnest. My ex also kept repeating that I was the reason for him falling out of love with me, and although he didn’t mention being unhappy at the time it was my fault for not knowing. In other words, Catch-22.

        • Yep, the traitor admitted he was always in love with the ex, that he knew this before we moved here 8 years ago. Checked and remember that in 2009, for the first 2 school terms, he HAD to stay every Sunday night at the ex’s house “FOR THEIR SON” to adapt to going back to school Monday mornings. To ease the transition, poor boy would be too tired. So Traitor and son would leave on Sunday afternoon. son starts school at 9.00 Monday, Traitor didn’t come back until Monday afternoons, ex whore was supposed to work on Mondays but I don’t believe she always did, and perhaps never, which would explain was she was always struggling for money, didn’t even work 4 days a week.
          During those days, we were still trying for a baby. I had had a uterine reconstruction 3 months before this started, and was on my 4th miscarriage with the traitor.
          Duh! Of course he was cheating, “for his son”.

        • Number one predictor of a cheater: Blameshifting.

          Mine pulled the same thing, Lyn. After D-day, he told me to stop obsessing about his affair and start obsessing with why he was unhappy with me at the time. Riiiiggghhhhttt. My reaction guaranteed he never explicitly said that again (though he tried various permutations of it through his naugahyde remorse phase).

      • Wow, funny how you all of a sudden became the asshole in the story. Boy is she fantastic at blameshifting… in her own mind…

      • After dday, Darkness told me he hadn’t been happy for 10 years. Since our second child was born Looking back on his behavior, yup, that’s when his behavior changed.. “Working” all the time, except the work was never done. It’s interesting to me that they do tell chumps the truth, we just need to recognize it.

        • Isn’t welcoming a child into the world supposed to be a wonderful period in your life? I have girlfriends who are in their 40s and would love to find a man and have children, yet they live with the possibility on a daily basis that they may never have children of their own since they are single and have been for a while. Yet this Jackass is blessed with children of his own and claims he hasn’t been happy since then. People like this should be banned from having children. They are colossal assholes.

        • Brightness, my ex said the same thing, “I haven’t been happy in ten years but I just didn’t know it.” I purposely think this was all a lie (that he wasn’t happy) as he pointed to a evening as the start of his unhappiness starting — I supposedly (I have no memory of it) said to him, “I will never trust you.” This was said at the time that I found out that he went to Canada at least ten times and got 100% naked lap dances (and probably more!) when I was pregnant with our second child. And I also believe he started to get “unhappy” when our first child was born. He was soooooooooooo jealous of our son. So much bizarre behavior and I wasn’t the only person to notice it, so it wasn’t me imaging things. That’s when he ramped up having to work all the time. Worked seven days a week most weeks. And like you said, “working” all the time, but the work never seemed to ever be caught up. Come to find out, he’s spend a great majority of his day walking around, talking to all the ho-workers. Like you said, “It’s interesting to me that they do tell chumps the truth, we just need to recognize it.” Yep, we just failed to see the truth right in front of us.

      • “That I forgot about a critical part of my untangling and a major bit of her gas-lighting script is a huge sign of healing. And look at that, it’s Tuesday. Not even close to meh, but it’s something.”

        Yes it is Ian!! And it is a big something. It happens in bits and peaces, and it’s moments like this that show you you’re on the right path. You are on your way to Meh! YAY!

    • Exactly how I feel about my STBX. Once I stopped doing the pick me dance, the mask finally fell completely. Who he really is is not good and I can’t tell you how many time I have thought to myself, “There is no way you can actually think that way.” here are a few examples:

      He left when I was 6 months pregnant after 20 years of marriage and 2 other kids. When my youngest was 4 months, she ran a fever and had seizures. We spent 3 days at the hospital (he never came once). After genetic testing revealed a variant, his response was “Poor girl. You can tell by looking at her something is off.” She is my earliest crawler and extremely happy and interactive. You can tell nothing is wrong with her.

      When I asked how he would feel if our oldest daughter started dating a 45 year old married man who walked out on his pregnant wife and family and who fathered an out of wedlock child (this is after I found out that his current OW was a 24 year old girl who used to work for him), how would he feel? His response was, “You hope that you have raised them with good values to make the right choices when they become adults.”

      After I convinced my kids that the right thing to do for Father’s Day was have dinner with their dad, he turned them down because they wanted to meet him at the restaurant (they were afraid he would surprise them with OW along again). His response was “I’m not okay with that. Sorry.” Then when he complained to my daughter about the conditions “her mother” gave him and she told them those were her brother’s conditions, he said, “It was not son’s day. It was Father’s Day.” This was after his son wouldn’t speak to him for over a month.

      Mentally disordered is an understatement for this people.

      • GetMeFree, your examples are from the mouth of a truly entitled and disordered person! Father’s Day plans weren’t to his liking he doesn’t see his kids?! What a prick!

        My ex has said some truly bizarre stuff to my face. He sat across from me on the bed and said, “I gave up Mary for you. I gave up Sally for you. I gave up Ann for you.” Not their real names. What kind of dick tell his wife that he “gave up” women for her? And he gave them up while we were married! He totally believes he did me some big favor!

        After he told me he wanted to divorce, he said, “I guess I will be delivering the Father Wound to the kids.” He said it with a big smirk on his face. The Father Wound is a emotional wound that some fathers give to their kids (we learned this from a Christian author.) He was so nonchalant, like no biggie I’m going to be devastating the kids. Life is all about him, so why would it bother him that he’d be hurting his children? He didn’t and doesn’t give a shit about what he did to me or his kids. His words, “They’ll be fine.” Asshole.

        While I still lived at home with him he said right to my face, “I’ll probably be remarried in two years.” This coming from someone who repeatedly told me there was no OW. Most sane people are not thinking marriage in two years when they were supposedly in a very unhappy marriage and also they supposedly don’t have a girlfriend.

        Go, Jeffrey Dahmer! Go lie and cheat on someone else. I’m sure she’ll be perfectly happy with that type of behavior as you have painted me as the wife who has “trust issues.” Jerk

        • I hear you. He recently told me how his current girlfriend (who would have been a 21 year old college student who worked for him at the time) was the one who convinced him to leave the first OW to give me a second chance. He cheated on me but in his mind, I was the one who needed a second chance. A complete turnaround from what he told me 3 years ago when he convinced me to give HIM a second chance. What is real? Then or now?

          It doesn’t matter anymore. Either way he is not a good person and I don’t want him touching my life any more than absolutely necessary with kids. There will be no “let’s be friends for the kid’s sake.”

          • “There will be no “let’s be friends for the kid’s sake.” Absolutely! I truly believe my ex thought I’d still be a chump and all would be well with us. We’d still be “friends.” We’d go out for lunch or dinner like he did with his previous chumps. Fuck that shit. We were friends. We were best of friends. Or so I thought. Now we are enemies. I was sleeping with the enemy for 20+ years, but didn’t know it.

        • Martha–mine said the same, “I gave up gradwhore for you, and came back to the marriage.” My response, “I wish you would not have.” Would have saved me 8 years of unhappiness and mindfuckery, and he and narcissistic gradwhore were made for each other.

          • Tempest — I agree. I wish he would have left 16 years ago when he was “friending” a ho-worker. Mind you, I thought we had a pretty great 16 years, but it was all a lie and a sham. I’d rather of been alone with my two kids than to realize he’s been fucking with me this whole time.

            • “Trust he sucks” is my new motto. Every time I start to question if I played a part in this drama, I repeat that phrase. People who do this crap are not mentally right. We did not catch on because the shit that goes on in their heads is beyond what we could ever comprehend.

  • By your actions English, you’re just doing what many of us did. Hoping (even if subconsciously) to “win” them back or that they’ll change – if only you could be nicer and more accommodating to them. That doesn’t work. Never has, never will. I thought the same way, “there’s no way I could have married somebody capable of that – he’ll/she’ll snap out of it if I just show them what they have, and then they’ll come back.”

    But people like your husband just don’t care. He is a taker. You are a giver. And takers will take as much as a giver is willing to give. You just need to realize that he will never change in that regard. He’ll continue to take from you and he’ll take from his girlfriend, until either (or both) of you stop giving, and then he’ll just move on to some other unfortunate soul. You’ll figure that out eventually. It may take time, but listen to the people on here, and it’ll help speed you to that realization. Then you just get up and leave.

    And as to how long the affair has gone on……..I don’t know the exact formula, but it’s safe to say you can take the number of months/years of the A that you’re aware of plus the number of APs (add 1 or 10 to the number that you know), divide that by the number of secret messenger apps on his/her cell phone, add in the number of nights they had to “stay late” at work, and then multiply that by the number of gym memberships they have. Pi might be involved as well. If that doesn’t work, call Stephen Hawking.

    As to how many shits you should give in the end, that answer is zero.

    • Blind, hahahahahaha, love the Pi reference! I also have a degree in accounting…….never took that class, damnit! Hahahahahaha!

    • This is a good one for on-the-fence chumps to copy and paste to their journal:

      “But people like your husband just don’t care. He is a taker. You are a giver. And takers will take as much as a giver is willing to give. You just need to realize that he will never change in that regard. He’ll continue to take from you and he’ll take from his girlfriend, until either (or both) of you stop giving, and then he’ll just move on to some other unfortunate soul. You’ll figure that out eventually. It may take time, but listen to the people on here, and it’ll help speed you to that realization. Then you just get up and leave.”

    • +100 Blindside! That math cracked me up. Deadfool’s main OW (who didn’t know about me at first, but sure knew about me when she was sending him masturbation videos) told him he should get a secret texting app or delete stuff so I wouldn’t see it. As if that magically makes it not a vicious and horrible thing to do! It’s the tech-savvy equivalent of “I didn’t tell you because I didn’t want to hurt you.”

      • CC, I am old so that is why I am asking you this question in all honesty because it is like I have lived under a rock and the world has passed me by. Was the OW masturbating in the videos or did she send nude photos for the deviant to masturbate to? Sorry, but the longer I live the more I am glad I am old, truly. Oh for the good old days when if a young man took a shine to us, he would ask us out on a date to the movies or a dance. No dick pics back in the dark ages.

  • Sounds like him and your friend are playing happy family with your son while you are camped out with your parents. It has probably been going on longer than you think. The imaginary girlfriend is proof. He left the party to go have drinks with your friend? He is not going to admit to more than you know. X’s, I slept with her 3 times, turned out to be a 5+ year affair. With our best friends wife. And btw it doesn’t matter how long it has been going on. Even one time is unforgivable. Follow CL’s advice. It’s the best you will find.

    • “X’s, I slept with her 3 times, turned out to be a 5+ year affair.”

      Yes, these cheaters always minimize their numbers and time frame. I wouldn’t believe a thing they said.

      • Hell yeah, Kellia! The night I found out I asked, ‘how many times?’ (did you sleep with my ‘friend’.) He thought briefly and head in hands said, ‘3 or 4.’ I immediately multiplied by ‘at least’ 10. Even in complete shock I clicked immediately and suddenly knew he was a lying fuck.

    • The amount of restraint it must have taken when faced with the AP must have been absolutely INCREDIBLE! I’ve wanted to physically harm 2 AP’s in the past, plus the cheaters (plural for me) Yay me! That’s why so many of us wait at that Karma bus stop. That disgust runs so deep and far and wide… Like Kellia said, and Meghan Trainor said it too, “If your lips are moving then you lie, lie, lie!”

  • N.E.C. – That “two years” time frame is very telling. I would bet he started banging your friend two years prior to DDay. There is always a smidgen of truth in their lies if you just dig hard enough. It’s completely disgusting what a low-life this pig is and your “friend” sounds perfectly suited for him.

    I’m so sorry you are going through this. Stay strong for your little man and follow CL’s advice.

  • English,a huge mistake I made with loser ex was to try to make things easy for him. It got to the point where he was doing nothing for our daughter while I was doing everything. The more I did, the more I did. The more I did, the less he did.He got to the point the only thing he did what help get her up in the morning. I took her to daycare, I worked all day. I picked her up from daycare, I watched her until he decided to go stroll in late at night about time for her to go to sleep. This gave him plenty of extra time to call, text, visit, and fuck some whore.

    He is not doing you any favors by taking care of his own child. He is not babysitting, it’s called being a parent. His share should be no less than 50% in a normal relationship. Best of luck to you dealing with this fucktard.

    • “The more I did, the more I did. The more I did, the less he did. Yes, exactly! By the time our marriage was done, my exes one and only job was to vacuum the stairs. And he did that about once a month. It was his one and only fucking job! He never once cleaned the basement. I did that once a year. He never once cleaned the garage. I did that twice a year. I did most of the gardening (son did the grass cutting.) I could go on and on. He always wanted the house all lit up with Christmas lights. That was never important to me, because……..I was tired and didn’t need more shit to do. Do you think he ever went out and lit up the house like his big dream? He put lights on the bushes of our first and smaller house. Never did it at the new house even though he talked about how much he liked lights outside. I’m pretty shocked at myself that I didn’t take the bait and do that, too!

  • Doesn’t matter how long it has gone one. What matter now is that you know he is an ass, a man with shitty character and no morals. I divorced Narkles the Clown after D-day number one. It was months before I realized there were several other whores over several years, some living around the corner from me. It doesn’t matter how many there were, what matters is there are not going to be any more. I suggest you take Chumplady’s advice and hire a damned good lawyer who will advocate and fight for you and your child!

    Being a single mom is hard but very worth it. You model good strong behavior, you stay sane and you stop bending to the will of the fuckwit. Yes, this person will be in your life for awhile as a father, but probably not a father figure. There is a difference. It will take some time but your son will realize there is a difference. He will know who he can turn to and who has his back. The best thing you can do right now is begin the process of having his back. Be the sane parent and find a hard charging attorney who will help you make your son’s life the best it can be…..with as little exposure to fuckwits as possible.

    • “It doesn’t matter how many there were, what matters is there is not going to be anymore”
      My mind is no longer consumed with worry over his cheating ways. That I NEVER have to worry about that again is worth the pain.
      Also, when the cheater realizes (they simply cannot believe you are actually done with them) the jig is up, it is fascinating to observe the fallout as a result.

      • Yes, Ex-orcist! It’s pure heaven no having to deal with a cheater. And all the stupid lies he told! It’s so wonderful not having that in my life anymore. Man, he made me feel crazy at times. The lies. The twisting of the truth. Making shit stories up to make himself sound like “the great guy, husband and father!!” Lying by omission. And on and on and on. Even though I’m not at meh, it has been worth the pain in order to get that level of insanity out of my life. Gosh, I hope I never meet someone like him again. So fucking fake!

  • Chump Nation, we need to warn her about hoovering!
    She is a primo candidate for “honey, I made the biggest mistake of my life. It was all the stress with the baby, I just lost my mind. But I love you and our little family. Let’s start over…”

    That could very well be coming, especially if Naïve starts enforcing her boundaries.
    THAT is the thing I wish I had been warned about.

    Please, CN, do your thing!

    • Yes, this!!! Naive please get familiar with the hoovering tactic that people like your husband use. I was susceptible to it for years. Looking back I see how I could have been an even better parent if I wasn’t playing his game. I would’ve kept my boundaries and stayed in alignment with my own values. I would’ve reached meh much sooner.

      I still don’t understand why they do this. If “there are other lives to live;” “you love me but you’re not in love with me;” and “everyone has a right to be happy” then just go do that and leave me the hell alone! But I know now that they do do it. And I can recognize the hoovering and shut it down immediately. You’ll learn too.

      • Strange, isn’t it, Sunshine… How they could waste their time and yours. I guess they don’t see it as a waste as they are simply existing as sub-humans and not emotional, caring human beings…

    • Hi, this happened to me and I am back with him with a six month old and a 2 year old. I have bought his lines and now I will probably stick with it because I do not want the heartache and I struggle with the two kids by myself but to be honest I think it would have been better had he just gone.

      • Then you have just signed on for a lifetime of abuse from him… and you are choosing to raise your children in an environment where it is OK with mum if dad f*cks around.

        Please English – love yourself and your children more than this. It is a struggle. Every single day as a single parent with a dimwit narcissist X is a struggle. But – as CL says… it is FINITE… you raise your kids well and they move on and so do you.

        From someone who has been in your shoes… choosing to stay means you have this to look forward to:

        1. Revolving door where he comes and goes and f*cks who he pleases
        2. Regular STD check ups for you
        3. Increased paranoia over where he is and who he is with
        4. Sleep deprivation – which can make for an angry or lethargic mom to those kids
        5. Weight loss/weight gain – take your coping pick
        6. Loss of self-esteem and self-value
        7. Financially beholden to the Devil himself
        8. Come to the end of our life realizing you lived in a prison
        9. Sooner or later he will walk away for good from you… and you won’t get to choose how it happens.

        At a minimum… read up on Narcissism and start documenting everything he does and start your own bank account with savings.

        Don’t be a victim. Don’t choose that little for yourself and your kids.

      • English Chump,
        I was you, 9 years ago. I didn’t know he was cheating, but I did know something was terribly wrong. I asked for truth, he lied and I trusted him. Eight years later he left me for the OW. And my life has been shattered. It’s not if, but when. 9 years ago I was healthier mentally and physically. I was young (compared to now). Those 9 years progressively worsened until I didn’t recognize myself. It was a slow deterioration of my boundaries and my worth and my health. If not now for you, at least set some boundaries for your quality of life. If those boundaries start to all get broken then recognize the downward spiral. And be aware that the farther down you go, the much, much more difficult task it is to climb back up.

      • English Chump,

        Please listen to us. Everyone is speaking the truth. My ex cheated on me when I was pregnant with our second child (was cold, mean and dismissive for over a year.) Our son was less than a year old when he started up with a ho-worker. These men do not change! They just don’t! My ex lied to me before we even got engaged. He was writing Love Letters to someone in the military. It’s a long story as to how I found out, but he just said they were “just friends.” There were lots and lots of “just friends” over the years. I finally caught him with hard evidence and then the mask fell when I started telling my story to my family and friends. When I was pregnant with our second child, he nonchalantly said to me, “You and the kids will be fine financially without me.” He didn’t say he wanted a divorce, but that’s what he meant. I was DEVASTATED and so afraid! I cried every single day during my pregnancy. I cried and was depressed after my daughter was born. I was in a total fog. I couldn’t believe our “happy family” turned unhappy pretty much over night. To this day, I really wish I would have just left him. I was just so afraid. So afraid to be a single mom. So afraid as I was a SAHM at the time. Everything that ICanSeeTheMehComing is 100% true! For years I couldn’t figure out why I felt so bad about myself. Now I know why! And he will for sure discard you some day and you won’t see it coming. I regret not leaving him when I was young. I could have left with the kids that he didn’t want or care about and move back home to WI. His actions proved he didn’t give a shit about me or his two beautiful kids. I could have had a totally 100% life without him, but now I gotta deal with this asshole for a few more years and of course there are the weddings and such that will come up some day. English Chump, you deserve better. Believe it!

      • English, my heart goes out to you. I’m about four and a half months from D-day, the agony of crippling, and I remember the “worth it but unceasing stress” of young children. You must be so tired. These good people can and will help. AND…

        … listen to yourself… It’s actually there… in your very own words.

        “[T]o be honest I think it would have been better had he just gone.”

        Sounds like maybe you need to start with one thing. I don’t think I’ve seen you before — but I haven’t been here long. Either way, COME BACK. And look at the private forums. It’s a simple registration, and then you can start a thread. Or read threads that might help. Sending hugs.

  • Oh English, big hugs to you. It probably won’t help, but I’m in your same boat. Same long term affair with a “best friend and friend of the family”, he swore it was just the six years (from when my youngest son was still a baby to shortly after my “whoopsie baby” turned one), he hadn’t loved me for years, it was true love with he and the psychotic OW, it was just between he and I and didn’t impact the kids “unless you let it impact the kids”, he left without a fight, regrets or asking for a second chance and moved right in with OW and her kids the same day he left our family home, leaving me with an infant, two Autistic sons, and all four children and myself absolutely stunned and in shock over what had transpired from finding out about the affair two weeks prior to my standing in my kitchen, holding my baby girl and crying over what was actually happening.

    Here’s the deal. Sociopaths like our exes (and the APs they go off with) do a lot of mutual grooming. Oh, you don’t want to stay up and have drinks/party? Of course you don’t because you have to get up early to take care of the kids. OW knew nothing of being an engaged and involved mom because she was always at my house. So you just go get some sleep, honey. You need it. Well you just go to bed and I’ll be up in a while after OW and I hang out for a little longer. Oh, AP’s just going through some really difficult issues and needs someone to talk to, just like anyone else would. I mean you would, too, wouldn’t you? Oh, she’s just going to stay for a couple weeks until she gets her head together.

    And all of it started when ex’s AP engineered her own escape from her husband and my ex was “just being a supportive friend.” It hurts to peel back the layers and really look closely, but there are probably signs and flags going farther back than you want to believe. And any man who can do this while his wife is carrying their child? Who can walk out on a baby? Fuck him. Fuck them both. She was just as complicit and waited for him with open arms because they knew your goodness would compell you to let him go in the end, and they’d get what they think they want.

    And it hurts. Fuck, does it hurt. Ex refused to give up parental rights because “they’re my kids, too, despite what you may be saying to them” and he refused to take them until the court forced him to do so, and told him he needed to get his own place so they could have overnights in a safe environment since OW has a history with Child Protective Services as long as my arm. And he and OW now are on a campaign to show my children what a normal, healthy and loving couple they are by OW’s constantly being there pretty much the entirety when my younger two go visit their dad for his overnight. She even sleeps at his place despite having her own to go home to and her own neglected kids there as well. And nothing we can do or say will change their entitled, fucked up sense of how great their love is or what a caring and wonderful dad they are.

    All you can do is love your son. I’ve lost my b/g twins to their dad and haven’t seen my older daughter in almost five months, and she’s under the Svengali-like spell of her father like I was so there’s nothing I can do but love the children I still have and who still live here. It was exhausting caring for a baby by myself, never mind two cranky teen agers and a confused little nine year old, but I tried to use the alchemy of the shit situation and turn despair over my life into love and warmth for my kids. The more lost I felt, the tighter I held my little girl. The more alone I felt, the more movie nights I had with the kids or the more elaborate dinner was for a while.

    Eventually it does get a little better. But you need to not expect your sperm donor to be a decent parent. He will put on The Great and Spectacular Dad of the Year Show, especially if anyone’s looking, but you know in your heart what he’s really like and what he’s capable of, and as for OW, she will likely try to fill in and take your place while with your child. Another bitter pill to swallow. But they don’t get to see how our kids light up when they come back HOME into the arms of their caring, loving and sane parent. That’s a gift we alone will receive. They can be right there watching it all, but they will never feel it or understand it because they can’t understand or feel love. Genuine love.

    Now, my tiny little infant who was like the embodiment of my heartbreak for months… How could he insist we keep this baby when I was on the fence while fucking the OW behind my back (while OW was fucking someone behind his back–you haven’t lived until you get to think about all the risk they put you at while a little life is dependent on your health–it’s so exciting), and then walk out on her anyway? My little girl is in her crib singing to the sunshine and the birds, waiting patiently and happily for me to come scoop her up, give her breakfast, and cuddle until it’s time for her to go to preschool. And who gets to take the credit for these amazing little people? We do, because we aren’t cheating, lying, deceitful and shallow pieces of shit not worthy of the title of parent.

    Big hugs to you, English, a stiff drink when you need it and if we could have play dates, I’d be there for you. Please hang in there and post when you need to. Hold that little man in your arms, walk away and try not to look back. I’m off to go get my daughter, who will hopefully learn from her mother’s mistake and never find herself in my shoes. And who knows I’ll be there for her when she’s old enough to understand just what sort of evil lurks in her gene pool. I tell her all the time I will keep her safe and keep the monsters away, and while I can’t keep *all* of them away, I will be here to hold her when she figures out, just like I did, that sometimes the monsters are closest to you because they’re also the most charming creatures on earth.

    But for now, it’s cereal, kisses, cartoons and cuddles, and one day at a time. And that’s all we can do, especially when we need to be there for little ones. You can do this, your son will know in his heart who his actual parent is and I promise your relationship with him will be all the stronger for it.

    {{{English and Baby English}}}

  • Louisvilleflower, great point! The hoovering! I see it in skankboy and shut that crap right down. I, too, ask CN to warn her!!! I call on the more experienced chumps in this to help educate her.

  • English – It has been going on for longer than you think… and she isn’t the first “one”. If you were that lucky, you’d win the lottery too.

    Protect yourself and your baby – think of the airplane safety analogy – put on your oxygen mask first and then take care of your son. He needs a strong Mom – and you’re it.

    See a lawyer straight away. Best first step – get informed. Best second step – DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Stop having any phone conversations – only use Email and Text where you can keep copies.

    And, focus on this time for you and the baby… these should be joyous months of you bonding. Don’t let this fucktard sperm donor take that away from you.

    And lastly, DO NOT FOCUS ON THEM. It’s like trying to catch a fish with a bicycle.

    Your liberation and your new life has begun – what until you see how strong and capable and deserving of so much more you really are. We’re with you English.

    • “It has been going on for longer than you think… and she isn’t the first “one”. If you were that lucky, you’d win the lottery too.” **YUP!** you’ll never know the full extent, English.

  • Dear Chump Lady and fellow Chumps,
    Thanks for the advice and the solidarity.
    You’re not the only ones to tell me that:
    – my ex is a sociopath with no moral compass;
    – he’s not a good dad just because he visits our son (he LEFT our son);
    – I need to stop bending over backwards to accommodate his needs in terms of his contact arrangements with our son (if he’s going to flake there’s nothing I can do to stop that in the end);
    – even if he did flake, would that be the worst thing in the world bearing in mind the type of person he has turned out to be (do I really want him influencing my son??);
    – WTF does it matter how long it’s been going on? He is a lying, weak, selfish man and I’m better off without him.
    CL you will be pleased to hear that I have told me ex that I am no longer moving out on a Fridays – he is a 34 year old man/father and needs to sort out his own arrangements NOW.
    I have also decided to file for divorce based on adultery with Basket Boobs. Going to get the best financial settlement I can and make sure we enshrine acceptable contact arrangements for our son.
    As a side note, I kissed a funny, attractive, lovely man this weekend and though it’s not going anywhere (he’s the friend of a friend who lives in another country), it made me feel alive.
    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t need a man to feel happy. My son and wonderful family and friends do that. It’s just nice to be reminded that the world is a big place and there are loads of brilliant people in it. They’re not all sociopaths!
    But for now I’m concentrating on me and my son. And on cutting the cancer of lies out of my life. One step at a time.
    Thanks so much for all the advice and support. It means a lot.
    Sending much love to all the Chumps and Former Chumps out there.
    NEB xx

    • OK. How mighty is this post? How mighty are you, English/Mary. You figured all that out before I had time to comment.

      Now, change the locks. Change the passwords on all of your accounts. Make sure you have all financial, tax, and legal documents copied and locked in a safe place.

      Here’s a thought. Spending Fridays with your son might have been convenient if his MOW also has children to visit. If he has to take your son to his new apartment, that should be…inconvenient.

    • applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause, applause!!!!!

  • Also, don’t be surprised if Father of the Year tells you he wants 50/50 custody. These fycktards all do that, it is an attempt to avoid child support. If you fall for that you will end up getting no money, and probably having your child all the time as well. Plus, if he has 50/50 custody, he will do what most of these guys do: he will leave your child with the whore while he is out fucking yet another whore. I’ve seen this happen so many times.

    • Hi Anita, I originally did 50/50 custody and even though I got residential custody, I still have to her pay child support for my 3 kids. I’m in Illinois so its probably mandated depending on which state you live in. But I agree with you, a fucktard is a fucktard is a fucktard is a fucktard.

  • My soon to be exhusband cheated on either before or during each of my pregnancies. He left after my miscarriage and later blamed me for that loss. He even went so far as to lie about using birth control. He agreed to use condoms — I can’t take hormonal pills but then he initiated sex in the middle of the night and didn’t stop as I told him he needed to use a condom. I had just recovered from said miscarriage. As you can guess it, I became pregnant again against my wishes. Then when I told him I was pregnant he moved into a hotel and that was “the beginning of the end.” Now I’m raising three kids (3, 2 & 1) by myself.

    • AlohaFreedom – There should be public service warnings about jerks like your ex-husband. To be sure, he is out there trolling around spreading his sperm on more unwitting victims. I weep for all these children.

      • He even offered recently to get a vasectomy… so I guess he can have unprotected sex with these OWs without the risk of responsibility? What about HIV or STDs?! I’m told the newest OW had tubal sterilization so they can have all of there fun sans any protection. Disgusting

        • * their fun…

          also can I add that he continues to kiss the kids on the mouth ? ….. Like a peck kiss goodbye but ew…Is there an real risk to the kids?

      • “There should be public service warnings about jerks like your ex-husband.” Agree 100%! Sometimes I wonder about public education. Yes, I agree that math, history, English, etc are all important subjects to learn. But we learn nothing about people like this! I came from a pretty dysfunctional home, so I was the perfect target for my narc. But no where in my life did I ever learn about what a healthy and toxic relationship were. I just needed to figure it out on my own — trial and error?

    • Yes, what is it about the narc that when we have a surgery and are told not to have sex, it is expected? Another thing, finding lots of viagra I. His top drawer and a bow tie and cummerbund that actually said “cheater” on it. I packed that shit up with all his Bible and religious books. Get the hell out and don’t come back.

  • EnglishChump, phenomenal figure?

    Your phenomenal figure made children.

    Hers is just a cum receptacle. That’s not phenomenal. She’s like a crusty old sock used to jerk off.

    Trust that they both truly suck.

  • As usual CL is right. It doesnt matter how long the affair has been going on. Its understandable to want answers. When we are betrayed, we want to know details so we can try to make sense of this overwhelming situation. We want to know what we could have done differently…and the answer is nothing. He is being a whore because thats who he is. Your so-called friend did you a favor. She will eventually discover what lies behind his mask. Better to find out now than ten years and three kids later.

  • Asswipe ruined his relationships with our grown children girl barely talks to him and the boys only for money or favors. Up to their sperm donor to fix it not me. Visits the baby in your house and you leave?! You know the whore is there with him. Lawyer up! You shouldnt have to leave your home for that. Screw him let him pay the consequences. Any man who abandons their wife and infant for some skank is not a man at all.

  • Cheaters like to rewrite the history of their previous marriage. “Hey there’s a sparkly new one. I want her. Yeah, I never loved my old wife. No, we never got along.” It’s a hormonal thing – the rush of a new relationship causes any old relationships in our lives to be erased if they happen to conflict with the new one. There’s actually research now showing that during the rush of a new relationship many neural connections get removed all over the brain. Take heart in the fact that he will do this again and again. It’s him, not you.

    • Hormones don’t make you seek out a new relationship when you’re in an “old” relationship — character does.

      I’m sure it is a high. Maintaining that high though? Takes a huge lack of empathy and respect for the person you’re chumping.

      • “Hormones don’t make you seek out a new relationship when you’re in an “old” relationship — character does. I’m sure it is a high. Maintaining that high though? Takes a huge lack of empathy and respect for the person you’re chumping”.

        Yes, our relationship was ancient but I do realise now he left not because I got old but because he got old and he wanted to see what he had missed out on. True lack of character for sure. I was the rock/foundation of our life together and now he has built on week and shifting sands with a 24 year old. Quick sand I hope !!

          • Maree, I wonder what will happen to your ex when the next wealthy westerner comes along. Will he run home and try to beg for forgiveness? Will you slam the door in his face?

              • Maree,
                IF he makes it home. He might die from catastrophic diarrhea or get a beat down in the jungle.
                And make no mistake…he is the one being used.
                No ill will intended, but those girls are sly and will use him up and spit him out.
                You did not get old. He is desperate and A CLOWN.

                All the literature says they always try to come back. (Disordered Narcs) I did not think my X would ever contact me again and he did.

                If he runs out of money, he will have to leave. is not so cheap there if you want to live in comfort.

              • Maree, I empathize. My situation is nowhere close to yours but x fell hard for a Filipina teen sex worker and tried to purchase her. I’m sure he’ll be moving to SE Asia soon for his perfect life with “the only person who’s ever understood me.”

                [Had I known he was willing to pay someone $600 a night to understand him by watching him masturbate, I might have taken up a second job. I’d had experience with that particular skill set. Well, not the understanding part.]

                But what I’ve learned is that x is NO catch. Why I was wearing ruby-colored glass for so long is a big ball of fuck I’m just beginning to poke, but I see him clearly now. I’m still mad but also think he’s pathetic. He’s just a waste of resources.

                Racist. Cheap. Selfish. Sex addict. Liar. Fat (so fat). Dumb haircut. White socks brown shoes. Man spreader. Mansplainer, too. Conservative. Provincial. Sexual molester. Misogynist. Boring. Rube.

                I think it’s terrible that this disgusting contingent of entitled white men insert themselves into a foreign culture (to which they feel superior) for their own egos. I think it’s terrible that the foreign culture accommodates even one of these assholes, much less relies on it in order to improve their own standard of living. It’s prostitution at its most degrading.

                I’m sorry your children are beguiled. What could they possibly be thinking?

              • Man Roaring, I can’t imagine thinking that I was “in love” with someone that I was going to buy. But I can’t imagine BUYING someone either. I’m so sorry. Sorry you had to live through that. And I’m sorry too for all those third world countries with all that crap. Man. To save them all. I do contribute monthly but it’s not enough. And Maree, I guess I haven’t been reading all the posts here lately and it’s good to read your comments. Hope you are well.

        • I read in my ex’s journal something like “my wife is old and has been around a long time,” although that’s not verbatim (hard to read through the tears). Basically I think a lot of these people are just bored with their lives and want to try something different. In fact my ex said almost those exact words, “I just saw something different.” I’m sure he did, because he was always looking.

          • Lyn

            I swear we were married to the same manchild. Tbe Limited will always be looking. What I try to keep in mind is how the supply and assets have dwindled. We made them look good. An aging narc who has no assets, can’t hear, has no interests, friends or ties to his family is not a catch anymore. At best he might get a job cleaning swimming pools.

            They will dumpster dive and repeatedly find trash.

          • Lyn, I have said many times that you and I were married to the same bloke and now it appears he was triangulating us with Doingme as well !!

    • My point is that once you choose to pursue a new relationship (emphasis on choice) the hormones that then kick in during the ‘new relationship high’ are also known to delete neural connections. Once the cheater gives in to this hormonal high, they can edit their memory of previous relationships, rewrite their goals, morals, and anything else that stands in the way of them running after the new person. The same hormones kick in with a new baby, incidentally. Nobody is slave to hormones, but people stupid enough to have affairs end up saying things like “I never loved my previous spouse. This sparkly new one is the one for me. They are my soul mate.” and the rest of that blather that we’ve all heard before.

      • I will also add that I have done a little bit of study about the brain. No, I’m not Stephen Hawking!! lol 🙂 I read a book a few years back (yep, I’m a chump who was always trying to “fix” herself as I was the one with the “problem.” Little did I know that the “problem” was sleeping next to me!) I read a Christian book a few years back “Who Switched Off My Brain?” The author is a brain scientist and doctor. She was the first person who taught me about Neuroplasticity: “The brain’s ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the brain to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.” I understand what Vivien to trying to state. Yes, it’s all about character. That is 100% true! My exes character is 100% crappy when it comes to fidelity and honesty. His character is 100% pretty good in other areas of his life. But when you see your spouse go from “I love you so much!” to cold, calculating and distant in the blink of an eye, there is something definitely going on in the brain. I truly believe he believes all the shit he has peddled. He truly believes his own lies.

    • “Cheaters like to rewrite history….” Amen! To this day, I can’t believe some of the things he has said to my face (rewriting of history) and I’m sure he’s telling lots and lots of lies to his ho-workers, “friends” and his family. For years and years, he said to me, “Martha, thank you so much for taking such good care of me.” And to the kids in front of me, “Mom takes such good care of us.” One time he said, “You notice the small things. Thanks for refilling the lotion in the lotion bottle.” I took such great care of him and my kids, so when he said to my face, “You never took good care of me.” it just didn’t add up from what I heard from him and what I knew in my heart that I did for over 20 years. That is rewriting of history!

  • Absolutely, as soon as he sees you are serious about setting boundries, he will come charging back with all the fake remorse he can muster. All to give HIM time to line up his ducks to totally screw you over financially and with custody. He cares nothing for you or his son, just wants to have control and WIN on his terms.

    Don’t waffle, stand strong, give not one more inch to this loser. Shut him down. No contact and no more leaving YOUR home. He can see the baby with you present for a couple hours a week until you have a binding legal custody arrangement in place.

    Stay strong, keep reading here, and kick ass!

  • About two years, English. He told you out of his own mouth.

    If you look back, is two years ago when he started to become remote?

    • Two years (at the time) went back to the start of our IVF treatment.
      It was a hard road. And yes looking back that’s when things changed. But Naive English Chump that I am, I just thought it was part of the process. Because that stuff is hard. I think that’s when he checked out. Certainly emotionally even if not physically. And to me, the former is just as bad as the latter.
      He is a weak man who will always put himself first. I know that now. So good luck to Basket Boobs. She now has a fuckwit for a partner and no friends (all ours have disowned her).
      Even though Fuckwit and BB were the ones that screwed me over, I now have the strange sensation that I sometimes feel sorry for them. Actually maybe not that… but… pity. Yes pity is more like it.
      What a pitiful pair they are.
      NEC x

      • No, Mary…don’t pity them.

        I know what you mean…but don’t. Harden your heart, and show them no mercy, for you will not receive any from those monsters.

        As CL said, those cheater have HIGH self esteem. They think we are the dumb asses for, you know…honoring commitments and old fashioned ideas like not fucking around.

        You have to become the Terminator when interfacing with these soulless creeps.

      • I understand how you feel. I almost feel sorry for CheaterX. He married GoldDigger Shmoopie 2 months after our settlement came through and I was able to move out of the marital home. She came into the marital home the day after I left.

        She’s burned through the money of two previous husbands; she’ll burn through his, too, and it’s not as if he’s a high-roller guy. No, his income is simply better than hers, but he’s overextended now to the point where he can’t fix the roof on the house because his credit’s so shot.

        That said, CheaterX and I did not have children. The pattern of a lot of these cheaters is that they’re fine leaving until Consequences. In your case, and under British law, that means filing for divorce on grounds of adultery. Oh noes! His image will be ruined! He’ll beg and plead and argue and threaten. But he also left you with an infant to take care of. If you hire good legal representation, then he’s going to be painted as Asshole Fuckwit for all the world to see, so don’t be surprised if things turn ugly.

        On the bright side, I believe that using adultery as grounds for divorce speeds up the process in the UK.

        You are mighty. You can do this!

        • You are truly enlightened to feel sorry (almost) for someone who moved another woman into your home, that he was cheating on your with during your marriage.

          I hope to feel pity for my X one day. I am so very far from that, as he deliberately deceived me….100s of lies falling from his lips. I cannot get past that. I feel a scorching, sickening hatred that gives me chest pain.

          • “I feel a scorching, sickening hatred that gives me chest pain”. Sylvia I could have typed those very words only a year ago but believe it or not eventually you won’t feel that intense pain anymore. You will get to the point of indifference not pity as your life improves and you will realise just what your ex has lost in you and that is a wonderfully warm, intelligent, kind, caring woman. Start to look after you and focus less on your ex and you will slowly but surely find peace. Also, if there is some lucky chap out there in the universe who should have you in his life, then he will find you. You really do deserve that. (((HUGS)))

            • You are just the best. Thank you for writing that, Maree. It helps so much. My family and friends are beyond maxed out on this topic.

              I am trying so hard. I never thought this would happen to me. I am so worried, because at times I feel…very hopeless.

              If I could just get 50% indifference, it will be a life raft thrown to me. I will NEVER pity him. He was too deceitful. I put nothing past him. If he could get to Cambodia, he would have a harem over there, too.

              However, he would not be able to figure out how to book the ticket. I was the “brains” of the operation.

              • You are way too good for the idiot and I don’t doubt for a moment that you were the brains of the operation. Most if not all Chumps can relate to being the brains of their unions. Realising your self worth will start the healing process Sylvia. It will happen when it will happen but do remember Sylvia you must heal before you look at another relationship and you alone will know when that time has come. As I stated, who ever has the good fortune of having you in their life will have struck gold. Until then it is all about Sylvia now and do not feel guilty or selfish for one moment.

          • I have to say that one day, when I was still shopping for lawyers, I was still a very new Chump and keeping my knowledge of the affair under wraps. I had found out that he’d cosigned on her auto loan, and was worried about how that affected a potential settlement. The lawyer’s jaw dropped when she heard that he’d cosigned a loan, and said the OW must have seen CheaterX coming from a mile away. I said that OW was twiced-divorce, and had a habit of picking losers. What I was going to say was that CheaterX was the first decent guy she’d met, but by that time I was reading CL and listening to Chump Nation. What came out of my mouth was the enlightened realization that OW was STILL picking losers. Her radar was right on track.

            CheaterX stands to lose everything within very short order. On one hand, I can see that coming, and the destruction of a human being is always sad, BUT he made bad choices. He has to live with them. Not my circus, not my monkey, not anymore.

        • I will never feel pity for him. He felt NOTHING for what he did to our children. He felt NOTHING for what he did to me. I watched in horror as my ex was cold and robotic to our son, while our son said to now ex, “Look what you are doing to mom.” Me, I couldn’t eat. Lost a ton of weight. Trying to eat made me throw-up. Crying. Depressed. A mom who was a cleaning and cooking machine, who turned into someone who could barely get into work each day, let alone try to take care of a children and a home. I will NEVER feel pity for him. He only cares about himself and his current OW. He charms and pretends to care about his mommy. I told her that he lied to her and she believed me. But now she’s against me as she has her baby boy back and I’m the one that was so horrible our entire marriage. lol. Yeah, right. He’s using his mommy and she either doesn’t know it or she doesn’t care. He said so many times things bad against his mommy. He’d never call her to see how she was doing. It was always me saying, “Have you called your parents recently?” He didn’t call them because he didn’t give a shit about them. But now he’s all “huggy and close to his mommy” because she’s providing kibbles and strokes of his genius to him. I will NEVER pity him. Never, ever!

          • I admit to having had moments where I felt sorry for X, in part because I was still portraying him as the person I loved, rather than the person he actually is.

            The person he actually is? My enemy. He did horrible, planned, deceptive, cruel things to me that no one who disliked me has ever done. All under the guise of being my confidante and lover and husband. Nope, he was and is my enemy.

            The pity I have for him now is different–I sit here with my 5 dogs, my daughter who won’t talk to him, my fire-bellied toads, birds & fish, and all my CN friends, and I am HAPPY. The pain of the betrayal is largely over, and contentment + a sense of agency about my own future has swept over me. X will never have that; he cannot be alone, but neither he cannot truly connect to other people at a deep, intimate level, and thus will remain forever lonely, forever seeking something to fill the void. My pity now is because he is pathetic, and despite his bravado and charm and academic accolades, he will always be pathetic.

            • That is exactly how I feel. He is my enemy but when I feel unadulterated joy working on the farm, when I am fully aware of this privilege, I know I pity him for being unable to be content. I believe he can never be content. He will always be crippled in this way.

            • >>>>”The person he actually is? My enemy. He did horrible, planned, deceptive, cruel things to me that no one who disliked me has ever done. All under the guise of being my confidante and lover and husband. Nope, he was and is my enemy.”

              Yep, 100%. Horrible planned, deceptive and cruel things to me. I have never ever been treated like this by anyone in my life! And he was my husband and someone who I thought was my best friend and I was his as he told me so many times I was his best friend. With a friend like this, who needs an enemy?

          • I hope you’re feeling better now, Martha!
            And ugh, fuck this guys couch.
            What is with cheaters and the borderline inappropriate attachment to their mothers?

            • Snoopy1, Yeah, I’m much, much better. Not 100% perfect as I still have my moments.

              Yeah, I truly think my ex has “mommy issues.” She rubs up against him in a flirty way and it’s just so odd. And I’m not the only person who noticed her strange behavior towards him. And he obviously loves it, because he’s not creep out by his mom flirting with him. So happy I don’t have to deal with her and him anymore!

  • Naive,
    If you can manage, and try so hard…use your superhuman strength to stop analyzing and researching the details. It it a quicksand of agony and misery. It does not bring relief to this brutal pain.

    It haunts you. It can take over your life. As Herculean as this is, and I don’t care how you make it happen (pharmaceutic, therapy, white knuckling it, move far away) focus on your energy on getting him and this cunt away from your baby and your life.

    Knowing all the horrible things he did feels like some type of control or win in this moment. But, if you are highly sensitive like I am (maybe you are made of tougher stuff)….you will have intrusive thoughts. Obsessive thoughts. Your cunt “friend” will delight in any interest you show in what they did. And in a bizarre twist of life, she might get nasty with you. She has demonstrated she is a monster. What else would she do?

    The craziest I got, the things I did that now make me cringe- came when I would not stop picking that scab and researching, digging…into what he did. It has not brought me relief. * Because we will never know the whole story*. If we hired the Soufan Group…we would not know the depths of their treachery. We will never get closure from a pathological liar. Those details can eat hole in your soul, in your identity, in your joy.

    It also keeps the focus on HIM. I have found what brings our feet back under us faster is taking positive action for US. Every minute spent researching them takes you away from reaching higher ground of sanity and escape from the Sociopaths.

    Naive, my D Day happened in May, and I am discovering that this is one of the hardest things I have ever done… in my life. ? Letting go of what we had and accepting what a piece of shit my X was. I believe part of what makes me fall back so hard is what I found out about my X’s double life, and it ran far deeper than he let on. He was so clever. And I am certain…I probably don’t know 90% of what he did. I don’t want to know.
    And I do not want to know one thing about his life now. It is just too sad.

    Just take all that energy you have right now, and get a solicitor/barrister who will ream him a new asshole to where that mofo needs a colostomy bag. I believe CL’s advice about terminating his rights is spot on and see if you could negotiate or guilt him into it while your baby is so young. Unless he is flat out loaded, a few hundred pounds a month is NOT worth 18 more years of his abuse and torture and whatever Cum Dumpster who is tagging along.

    If I could Fed Ex you some strength, I would but I don’t have much to give.
    These affairs diminish us. That is why I know you can’t waste your energy on their sick logistics.

    Don’t become Sherlock right now about who, what, when , where. You just had a baby, you are in shock that you married a Human Slop Bucket- He is never going to protect or nourish you, in anyway. Focus on survival.

  • I would not sever parental rights. As a child of a Narc Dad and bipolar mother it took 47 years to clearly see them both for what they are- mostly because I didn’t know my Dad and only heard my mom’s side. Sadly, I also have a child with a terribly twisted father and allowing her to know him has helped her to NOT internalize abandonment and shame. Me? I was stuck with intense self loathing because I never knew my Dad and internalized every negative thought and blame.

    • I am sorry Beyonce. That was no reflection on you, that you did not know your father. The was beyond your control.

      She KNOWS who this father is. A lying piece of rat shit.

      A cost/benefit analysis leads me to believe it would save huge amounts of heartache to not be legally bound to this man. When the child is older, he can reach out to his bio father, if he wants to and has appropriate support.

      I just have never seen where a Pathological Liar Parent made a child’s life better, especially one who abandoned him as easily as dropping off the dry cleaning.

    • I internalised the same kind of shame being the daughter of a callous repeat cheater and one of his early mistresses too. I never met him and was the secret child, my mother adored me but was ashamed of her situation, everyone lied to me about my origins. It made me very vulnerable to the traitor’s schemes. I don’t know exactly what terminating parental rights would mean in practice. Could the child still see his dad but mum would have the final say on everything? If it means ensuring the child never sees dad again, I am not sure that’s a good thing.

  • Naive, if nothing else, stop letting him use your home as his base for visits. You stay right where you are; there is no reason this nitwit can’t keep a baby at his place.
    If he says he doesn’t have room, that’s just tough.
    Plus, that’s more documentation for you to give to the court about his priorities as a parent.

  • You married an entitled ass. The moment he left to set up with OW your home ceased to be his home and he should not be allowed to enter your home again; unless you or your support system of friends and family are physically present at all times. He definitely should not be sleeping overnight. Let him play Daddy to your son in his home not yours. Much as it disgusts you custody should be shared between your respective homes. Mommy’s home is not his hotel and screw Daddy’s need to find a crib, diapers, food, bottles, clothing, bath stuff etc. Shared custody means “he who left” must provide basic necessities for his child in “he who left’s” new home. He who left should not be using Mommy’s food, supplies, and furniture when he’s presumably parenting. Just because he might have claim to the marital home as assets does not mean he is entitled to use it as his personal Daddy camp. He left, no longer his home or hotel.
    If legally able change your locks or at least install deadbolts and or a security system. Invite your bitchiest/surliest support members over for any times he is scheduled to do hand offs. Get that shit sorted out asap to protect both you and your son. And start getting bull dog lawyer on his ass. Not your obligation to be nice. He lied, cheated and left. Fight for your child’s financial security and safety. If that means selling the house (or changing the lease…you never specified whether you owned or rented), moving, changing jobs, asking for alimony and child support then hire Genghis Khan as a lawyer…do it now!
    Oh and that little kernel about it being 2 years of not being in love with you. He just told you he banged somebody (maybe not her) for 2 years. They always slip a little bit of white lie in with the truth.

    • “Oh and that little kernel about it being 2 years of not being in love with you. He just told you he banged somebody (maybe not her) for 2 years. They always slip a little bit of white lie in with the truth.”

      Spot on!!

  • Dear English,

    I am so sorry. Reading your story just turns my stomach … cheating on a pregnant/nursing woman with her best friend is just about as shitty as it gets. And the early months with your newborn should be the most delightful time … bonding with this glorious creation you worked so hard to bring into the world. That you must spend even a moment dealing with a cheating husband right now is disgusting. That you would leave your own house and your baby so that he can have time with his child? That is more consideration than even a nice man deserves. I would NOT do that under any circumstances. See a lawyer and try to get full custody. Believe me, now is the time to get that asshole away from you and your child. He is a sperm donor, not a parent. The difficulties of co-parenting with a fuckwit are well documented on this site. Don’t think for a second that you can somehow control his behavior to have a favorable outcome for your son. You cannot control or manage selfish, delusional, disordered people. You just cannot. If things change in the future, you can always provide more visitation but it is nearly impossible to reduce visitation once you have signed a legal agreement. Hugs to you and your precious son. Now go get that lawyer.

    • It turned my stomach as well. I am getting deeply worried that this is the way of the world now. But, CL’s birthday post gives me some hope. Please let there be someone out there that is not a disordered lying cheater.

  • Naive, I had a similar situation where he cheated on me with a friend while I was pregnant and eventually “left” for her. I put left in quotation marks because he didnt have the balls to leave, he just continued to cheat after I found out so I threw him out. Image impression was way more important…..

    Mine even went as far as to make the ow our daughters godmother, then her babysitter and now that I have divorced him, used all of this to make it normal to have her with our children. Poor things haven’t figured out that she has been his porn princess for the last decade. Yet. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when that hits the fan.

    I fought for full custody and won….best decision ever…I would devise to go at least for full custody. These entitled nitwits want their whores on the side but also want us on a short string… full custody for you cuts the string on your end and changes the balance of power.

    As they say here on this site “Children only need one sane parent”. Be that sane parent. I also tell myself that “My home isn’t broken, now it’s fixed”. My children are happy and thriving because of my efforts.

    And will he and the Ow make it, I don’t know…but I thing she willdefinitely get hers as I have some proof that he’s a peeping tom. You steal it, you keep it…

  • As a father who got chumped, this guy is a useless schmuck. You would own his ass in court, granted I know lawyers aren’t free (god I know), but it doesn’t sound like he would put up much of a fight and would do as little as possible to have to deal with you in court. He thinks he is still “with” you and can control the situation like he more than likely has for the past few years shaping out his exit path. Take the CL’s advice and get on a custody schedule ASAP. As one who can speak from experience even if he wants to put up a fight in court, he will be pissing upwind. Unfortunately, I speak from experience on that one :(.

  • While I would not usually be an advocate for the signing away of parental rights, there are two compelling reasons to try for sole custody and even getting Assclown out of the picture.

    1. His AP was doing IVF and still does not have her own child. Possibly never will if she is at the IVF stage. This means she will not be particularly happy to have to have any involvement in your child’s care, and in fact, could harbour jealousy leading to harm. If she does procreate, can you imagine your child’s experience within a mixed stepfamily situation …

    2. The father himself is an inexperienced slimeball to whom sex seems more thrilling than child-rearing. No wonder he does the baby care away from the AP. These two love birds want nothing to do with someone else’s spawn, they are still immature twats!

    Chuck pops in the recycle bin.

  • Oh, and by the way–I think the “hasn’t loved you for two years” might give you a clue as to how long these cheaters have been carrying on.

    • Oh God, thats probably true. My ex said he had been unhappy for 22 years and he was cheating through the entire marriage. Asshole

      • X told me after D-day that he had stopped loving me about 15 years ago when I said something mean to him.

        I asked him what I’d said (because it never came up one single time).

        He couldn’t remember.


  • LAJ agreed. Apparently X cheated because I hadn’t loved him for 5 years. News to me. That ended up being the length of the affair.

    • Yes! When I found out about the affair, my ex said that we had major problems before it happened. He tells himself, the OW and his friends/family the same story to justify what he’s done. “Oh, poor me, I was so miserable and now I’m happy. I deserve this new love.”

      • That^^^^^ For damn sure. ” I was soooo unhappy, she knew it wasn’t good too and just didn’t want to admit it.” Yeah , I know it wasn’t good, but not because I wasn’t killing myself to make it good because I was convinced I must be lacking.
        He at least tries to maintain civility in our conversations now because he’s trying to repair his relationship with our adult children who have abandoned him and doesn’t want anything bad about him out there ( “despite everything, I try to be good to you as their mother” …..barf)
        The affair partner on the other hand is as nasty as they come. Mean and confrontational if she ever runs into me ( small town) or if we need to conduct any business. She’s shitty to me???? Smh….I didn’t fuck her husband. Not that I’m looking to braid her hair or anything, but I never understood that. No shame….
        Double edged sword. Say anything to defend yourself in these moments and you give them kibble, say nothing and you want to explode. I love my new life, but it’s taking me a loooong time to harness the zen.

        • I agree Paintwidow. No shame! the whore in the picture would have that smirky, shit-eating grin when I saw her and I swear to God I wanted to jack her so baddddd!

        • in response to Paintwidow, about the OW hating us.
          Just yesterday I heard of this concept: hate stems from fear. They fear us.
          And knowing what I know, no wonder my SBXH hates me too. He even said that I hate him. Oh, no! That’s his projection. I said I have proof of him leading a double life. Of course he hates/fears me!

          • Enraged,
            This! I hated OW with a white hot fury for first 6 months. I was afraid of my marriage ending, afraid she was “better” than me. Once i understood that what he was doing was emotional abuse my fury for her almost disappeared. I know she is not better than me – she is a serial cheating, emotionally abusive wife/mother. I no longer fear my marriage ending. Darkness has demonstrated through his actions that he does not love me.

            • I feel the same way about Jackass’s MOW. And (in a weird karmic twist) events have conspired to give me a glimpse inside the life of said MOW, and I know she is making a mess of her life and screwing up her kids. She isn’t with Jackass any more but she blew up her marriage anyway.

  • It’s so hard when the other woman spends time with your kid(s). My daughter just came back from a weekend with her Dad. His twat waffle (my new nickname for her) washed my daughter’s hair and was cuddling on the bed watching movies with her. Makes me sick 🙁 Keep reminding yourself that anyone that would take up with a married man with kids at home is a piece of shit. Like everyone has been telling you, you are the mom and the sane one. Hire a lawyer who will fight for you. It won’t make up for everything that’s been thrown your way but it’s an awesome feeling to take back some control. Good luck!

    • And that’s why a divorce, with child support (and) spousal support, with limited and imposed time to spend with his children will make the divorced straw man less of an attraction.
      Usually these relationships are doomed.
      As soon as you get divorced, the image of OW spending time with your children will start to fade.

      Just how attractive my SBXH must be, financially (because that’s why she poked him), now that he has to pay the rate to our flat, pay rent, pay alimony, pay lawyers, pay mediation?
      Would you date this gem of a man?

      • No, I would not. I would not even consider it.

        I read this neat piece of information about NC with Narcs. It said when you allow them in your life, you “fill in the holes” for their relationship with their AP, and thus make it easy for them, even pleasurable.

        When they need to talk to someone with a “brain”, or who is compassionate…they can call you. It props up the AP relationship, which is a solid as jelly.

        When you completely withdraw, they are left with the “hot mess” freak that they cheated with…and it is not the secretive thrilling dirty secret. It is another person, who demands money and time and nags and has her own big basket of problems.

        It is like Reason #4,560 why No Contact is the ONLY way to go.

  • “They” say that 4% of the world’s population are sociopaths. If we use 7 billion as a number of people that means 280,000,000 are sociopaths.
    I don’t know the number for narcissists but let’s say 500,000,000. That means wandering this earth spreading unholy hell on chumps are 780,000,000 of these horrors.

  • Whenever I need to channel my rage I think of Frances McDormand in Fargo. (God she is so sexy.) Don’t wait for the karma bus. Go out and seek justice.

    And it’s a beautiful day…. and for what? a little bit of money.

    • Dang Ian, now I’m going to have to go home and watch Fargo again. You are not improving my work efficiency. Of course, neither is sitting here reading CL although it does improve my mood. 😉

      • I just watched that movie!!! I own it I love it so much That was the last line in the movie. Marge was PURE GOOD. There is nothing more attractive than a wicked intelligence that is gentle and laid back.

        *And I loved her and Norm’s relationship.* They were supportive, faithful, loving and so in tune. They were the moral heart of the movie…opposite of almost every other character. Remember him making her breakfast even though he was sleeping? When she got the call about the triple murder? And her delight when his painting got the 3 cent Mallard stamp.

        If you want to laugh, go on You Tube or watch the whole movie, and when that Asian dude is at lunch with Marge at the hotel when she is out of town, and he wants to sit on her side of the booth, and she makes him move. And then he eventually cries….and the look on Marge’s face….CLASSIC!

          • I thought of you and your kind words about my homicidal ideation, but your bear fighting scenario is SO much better. I lived off that for days.
            I imagined you and I, up in a tree, with your parmesan/rosemary popcorn, calmly watching and smiling.

            Look! That one is so big! Hannibal doesn’t run very fast. Rasputin is crying and clinging to a tree. Tempest, can you pass me the wine?

        • I used to think traitor and me would be like Marge and Norm, that was my dream and the rose tinted glasses I was desperate to see our relationship through. I even quoted that line in MC. Permanent discontent is the traitor’s disability and it leads to crime.

  • Presumably as she was in the middle if IVF, she can’t have children. Someone may have said this before in the comments but I don’t have time to read them all, but she doesn’t just want your husband, she also wants your baby. Get a solicitor and do it now!!! Stop leaving your home for him and set your terms, as your child is so young, you have the power, protect your child and do it immediately. She has no rights, you do, exercise them!

    • what the OW wants is your life!
      She wants your man, in your bed, she wants your home and the child is part of the props “look at me, I’m a better mother” etc.
      In my case, the OW even “baptised” my son, with a new name. She added some “i” in the end, to make it sound more italian-ish.

      • and taught my son to call her mother 🙁
        We’ll see how long she sticks in my son’s reality. I give her time until next summer!

  • “How long do you think this affair was going on?”
    THIS affair – since you were trying to conceive! Why do you think it took the 2 of you so long?
    Please do not blame yourself. No! He was wasting his seed elsewhere, that’s why! On purpose. Because this POS cannot stand the idea of commitment, obligations. And a child is a lifetime commitment.

    I have a few questions for you.
    1. Why aren’t you pissed? That would be normal.
    You are not pissed, you are asking this kind of “soft” questions. You’ll figure out the answers in time, now you need to focus on you and your child and how to get out of this mess.
    2. Is this “wonderful” dad paying alimony since he left?
    3. Do you know what is this “wonderful” dad doing in the presence of your child? Find out! It will help your case, please find out asap.
    4. Do you have a divorce lawyer?

    How do I know all that? Hm, because I’m in the same boat. Ok, maybe I’m closer to the shore – I have full custody.
    10 years together, TODAY! 7 years of marriage, a 2 years old child.
    I followed the trail of the money, that’s how I know why it took us months to get pregnant. I followed that trail all the way back to when we set up the common account. We rented one street away from a red lights street. He new the shortcuts through that street, why did I not figure it out then? Because I TRUSTED him.
    But the why’s don’t matter. That’s what my lawyer told me when I presented her with videos. In front of the baby, behind the camera, someone was performing on my husband. He’s tormented with the fact that I have evidence. He doesn’t know what I have.
    It doesn’t matter. I got full custody and the right to relocate to my home country, where I can get the support of my family.
    What he gets? He gets to see his son twice a year. He gets to speak with his son in my language or English.
    He gets the “prize” of a f-ed up “family”: a son who is not his, with serious problems. A “professional as a partner, a woman who cannot have more children.
    I had to eat those sandwiches that CL talks about: I had to go through mediation, so I could relocate. I had to accept that my son will spend time with OW(hore)
    You don’t have to go through this. You can get out of this almost unscathed. You can do it! Be strong!

    • I am greatly impressed with your Mightiness, Enraged!!! You rock. You are strong.
      I am so happy you get to escape and be with people who love you.

      • Ah, thanks. Feels good to hear it.
        Underneath that mightiness, there is a lot of (there is a word for this, when you are defenceless, at the mercy of fate) I must start from zero, new place to live, new job, new friends…
        I cannot let negative thoughts cloud my mind. I am the rock now, for my son. I must be strong.
        When I start to get “weak” thoughts, I tell myself “Get your shit together!” It helped me go through this.
        I’ll have time to mourn later. Or maybe there will be no time.

        • I like the analogy of doing a high dive into a rushing river: you have to jump, else you are stranded on the cliff above the river. Once you jump, there is no turning back. You must drift with the flow of the river, but you can swim to avoid many of the rapids and rocks.

          But the worst thing you can do is simply not jump and just wither in the hot sun stranded on a cliff.

  • Things That Make You Want to Wash Your Brain in Clorox:

    Well, I just wanted to share this with the minds at CN. Apples do not fall far from the family tree.

    I just checked my email. The cheater’s uncle has always been very nice to me. He warned me from the jump that the X was bad news. Anyhow, he emails me from time to time. He is married, but it was all very mundane, and very complimentary about his wife. Who was NOTHING BUT KIND TO ME..without fail. She invited me in her home at holidays and was just super to me.

    She still “loves” the X, however. (Gag). He is her nephew, blah blah.

    So, I told this man, please never reference my X. I don’t want to know anything about him. He followed this diligently. The emails were usually only book recommendations, as reading is my “thing” , and asking about my health, dogs.

    He just sent me an email asking me if I had every heard of remote control vibrators. He would put an app on his iPhone and he could operate it while I wear it….??? He sent me the link on Amazon and asked if I would look at it, consider it and wear it…..???

    This is out of the blue. I believe I should forward the email to his wife. This family…they are sick.

    It makes me weak with disgust.

      • Yes, I have to bust his ass.
        They are all sexual predators. He KNOWS I am weak and heart broken. I guess he wanted to get his freak on.
        Get it on with YOUR WIFE.
        It gave me a blinding headache.

      • and of course he will say it was a joke, it was a mistake, bala bla bla.
        You just sit back and watch the show. Seriously. It’s always a trip to crazy land.
        You can also put some wood on the fire, from time to time. Let them burn themselves. That way they know you know. And they will cut you off. Which is a win!

        This is a lesson, you have an opportunity to face one of your fears.
        The first time I had to confront a colleague: I was right, but felt like I had a knot in my throat. I got nervous. I could feel my own fear. Still, I faced that POS with logic and showed him that his lies, which he tried to cover with more lies, did not work with me. His abuse stopped then and there. He knew I knew.

    • I’m sorry, Sylvia. You’ll find there is a lot of housecleaning you’ll do after betrayal. It’s the second wave of hell.

    • Yuck! Sorry Sylvia, you thought you had a friend and he’s just a stinking traitor too. What will these freaks come up with next? I had a boyfriend in my 20s whose dad kept coming on to me and complaining about my boyfriend’s mother. Repulsive. The boyfriend turned out to be a fucked up cheater. Not surprising.

    • Unfortunately, many times it seems like a man wants to just be nice or be friends, there is an ulterior motive. Sad but often true.
      No offense to chump men here, not ALL are alike. Just something I have seen over the years.

  • YES!! Do everything stated by chump lady ASAP.
    My ex moved out when our kiddo was 10 months old and then refused to file divorce. 2 yrs later I was divorced.
    The affair started when I was pregnant and he lied about that for 4 yrs. I just found truth in January.
    Get a lawyer, file for custody and document, document, and then document some more. Do not do mediation – find the money and get a lawyer.
    Please learn from my mistakes and get it done with sooner versus later.
    You can do it. It’s hard before it gets easier.

  • Naive English Chump-

    Guarantee that it was going on longer than he said. You could use cheater calculus or you could just go with the tried and true “If their lips are moving, they’re lying.”

    Will it work out? In a perfect world it would. That means two more disordered nitwits are off the market (for chumps). They may not keep it in their pants but as long as they’re pretending with each other they aren’t taking advantage of another chump. Statistically the odds are against them, but I suspect a number of these blessed unions continue long before they’ve expired to keep up with their impression management. They need to show the world that their great love was worth all the destruction they caused along the way.

    Either way, not really the questions you should be concerning yourself with at this point. It should be all about your child and you at this point. Once you’ve rebuilt your life into the mighty awesomeoness one can only get after leaving a cheater, you won’t care what he’s doing. As for the shit sandwich of having to co-parent with him, if he presents no danger to your child then you’re golden. You can’t manage how the visitation goes or who is present during them. The courts generally don’t care as long as the child is safe. Enjoy the time you have to yourself and keep being mighty.

  • More movie wisdom, Annie Hall (ignoring we want to give Woody Allen a beat down)-

    About Narcs Staying with their AP/OW/OM and the relationship working:

    [Alvy addresses a pair of strangers on the street]

    Alvy Singer: Here, you look like a very happy couple, um, are you?
    Female street stranger: Yeah.
    Alvy Singer: Yeah? So, so, how do you account for it?
    Female street stranger: Uh, I’m very shallow and empty and I have no ideas and nothing interesting to say.
    Male street stranger: And I’m exactly the same way.
    Alvy Singer: I see. Wow. That’s very interesting. So you’ve managed to work out something?

  • 1. Lawyer.. file asap
    2. Change locks…he walked out, why the hell should you have him in your house
    3. Minimal contact…
    4. Document everything!!

    I learned not to even try to figure the ex douche out…..every word out of his mouth was a lie. Every. Single. One! His reality was made up and ever changing, always made him out to be the long suffering Knight in Shining armor instead to the douche with a tin foil hat he really was.

    Life it too short to try and figure out his shit when you have to move on with yours and a beautiful baby.

    Just repeat “Trust that he sucks” as often as needed.

  • Ahhhh Naive English Chump…… been there, got the t-shirt. Seriously, your story is almost exactly mine.

    I’m 3 years out, and as I type, sitting by a pool in Bali while exhole has the kids for a school vacation back in Oz. He still lives in the Nordic region, where he abandoned me, and presumably enjoys his regular vacations and immense salary no end. (this is my first week off from the kids in 10 months, 10 months that he hasn’t bothered to see them).

    Anyway, let the dipshit go. Over time, you will appreciate just how many red flags you overlooked with this guy. He is disordered, you are now officially better off without him. After you pick yourself off the floor (this took a good 6-12 months for me), you will need to spend some time figuring out what *you* want from your life. Here’s my favourite tips for an action plan here on in.

    1: Divorce ASAP, and be hard on him, get as much as you can whilst you can.
    2: Don’t listen to his bullshit, communicate digitally and record all of it.
    3: Given #2, be careful what you write, assume anything you say can be used against you
    4: Accept that the little one has a right to know their dad if they want to, but it isn’t your job to facilitate that, it is his/hers. (Personally I’d rather they know him and his flaws rather than idolize him in his absence)
    5: Take some time to think about what you want next. Set some short-term and long-term goals.
    6: Pull your socks up, stop crying, and focus on achieving these goals.

    In the last three years I’ve followed this plan and have achieved the following: 2 new distance study undergrad degrees (one from LSE!); new short-term contract job, which is just about to roll over to a higher-level permanent role; divorce!(Just last month finally); relocated home to Australia solo with two kids; moved house twice (hopefully buying in the new year); written one (maybe two if I split it) books that I’m just about to launch (ie, working by the pool in Bali); and most importantly, my kids are doing incredibly well, and we have a tight little family of three.

    Everything has turned on its head for me, and I lost an immense number of friends in this process (mutual Switzerland friends), but now that I’m crawling back to my feet, I feel liberated and enthusiastic for what comes next.

    You can do this, you probably don’t believe it now, but just focus on you, and let go of the trash you unfortunately married. It happens, don’t let it define you.

    • Congrats, JJ!
      I so wish I’ll find myself in 3 years telling a similar story.
      You give me food for thought, setting those goals. For now I can barely see tomorrow… eh, recovery it’s a process, I’ll have to be patient and kind with myself.

      • It is definitely a process Enraged, and nothing is ever 100% certain, but I forced my way forward, listening to all the golden advice here on this forum. It felt wrong at the time, because I still loved him despite his horrible behavior. But there is nothing wrong with putting all of your energy into building yourself. Come what may, if you don’t take care of yourself, who will? For me, I realized my kids needed a strong mum, so here I am, doing everything I can to be that for them.

        • JJ, your whole post is terrific insight but this statement made me wonder: “It felt wrong at the time, because I still loved him despite his horrible behavior.”

          I wonder if you felt, as I did at the time (about three months after D-day/mostly NC), a little guilty because I realized my life was going to be so so so much better without him and everything he came with?

          Like I was profiting from this mess and he would suffer. You know, in writing this, I just got a very clear picture of him and his perfect downcast brown eyes sad sausage demeanor. It was his Strategy and I found it appealing to me for some damn reason.

          I hope this makes sense. I just got back from the ER because I have a localized staph infection in my nose (which looks like Bozo’s – great look for a school teacher 🙂 which I’m glad I caught before it ate my brain…anyway, the opioids are kicking in. So glad to be pain-free for a little while but know it makes me sound ridiculous. Oh well.

          • Hi Roaring,

            Nope, I didn’t want to see him suffer, at all. My ex was one of those that skips off into the ether to live a happy life as if he were still 20. My mind and heart were firmly focused on my kids though, and the pain of his departure was harder because I felt the pain for my children, that would be to come. Would my daughter think one day that he left because she was born? Would my son end up a statistic because he lacks a male influence. All of these thoughts plagued me to indecision and inactivity until I reached snapping point, (perhaps when he tried to leave me penniless in the depths of a Nordic winter with two kids aged 1 and 3. I don’t know. But I never wished suffering on him. That is to say except that I wished him dead for a long time. I would have handled his death more easily, because it wouldn’t have been his choice to leave and my kids wouldn’t have to weather the long-term scar of “abandonment”.

        • JJ, I am not an expert, and this is just my theory, but I believe that any REAL love that you have for a person dies when they betray you really horribly, like committing adultery.

          Real love is then replaced by an imitator form of love. Call it false love, limerence, infatuation, lust, Hysterical Bonding, whatever you like. These feelings can be quite strong, and you may feel like you love your husband even more than ever. There are a lot of books on this, and reading about this made me realize what was really going on. I think I knew something wasn’t right but it took a while for me to sort it out.

          I don’t think people even realize when this has happened, I didn’t. But the point is, you are having to lie to yourself about your spouse because the truth is too horrible. The good thing about the false forms of love is that they can die pretty quickly, even like in the blink of an eye. You just look at the cheater, see them for what they really are, and say to yourself What the fuck was I thinking???

        • I feel when you really love someone that never quite goes away no matter what they may or may not do. However should that loves be so toxic to destroy best to end it. So i will love the guy i married in spite of who i know now who he really is and let him fade away. Five hours from him and no contact. Yep that should start the healing.

  • Take a bow JJ! That’s a lot achieved in such a short time and excellent practical advice. Giving me hope that shedding 100kgs of traitor ballast will help me soar too.

    • It takes effort to take the consideration you naturally have for your traitor off your list of priorities, but once you toughen up and focus all of your energy on you, life improves drammatically! For me, I decided to invest in me, instead of him, for a change, and so far so good!

  • Why oh why are YOU having to leave YOUR house for your ex’s overnight visits with the baby?? Grow a backbone and stand your ground, please. You and your baby are a package deal. If your ex wants to see the baby, then he has to go through you. And you don’t even have a court ordered custody arrangement and you are letting him exile you from your OWN HOUSE for the night? No. Um, no. Definitely unacceptable. Letting him kick you out like that is just going to convince him he can continue walking all over you. He already walked all over you by f-ing YOUR friend, and then expecting you to accept his lying excuses, and now this? Guuuuuurrrrlll.

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