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Dear Chump Lady, He won’t admit to cheating

Dear Chump Lady,

I am almost a year out from DD. My ex and I are still going through divorce and I thought I was pretty well on the road to healing and even getting close to “meh”. However the divorce has gotten heated over financials and it has started to bring back flashbacks of the lies and all the horrible ways he treated me back then. My problem is, he never admitted to cheating and convinced all his family that I am crazy and he just wanted to get away from me.

I never had any physical proof other than one 40-minute phone call and circumstantial evidence. He started lying about his whereabouts, which I caught him on from our credit card bill, started stockpiling on breath mints (his car was loaded and found them in every pocket), came home and would go straight upstairs and change, wash his face, etc. One day I even found spots of wet semen in his underwear that he took off right after coming home. He gave me four different excuses on four different days for that. He also deleted three months off our phone call shared log and refused to let me look at his phone saying I was invading his personal privacy. There is more but you get the picture.

My biggest problem with moving on is he never admitted to cheating, yet just decided he wanted out of the marriage because I was snooping too much. Didn’t care that he was breaking up our family (we have twin boys) and refused to go to therapy. My gut knows he was cheating but he still claims he was innocent and shows no remorse. Now his mom won’t talk to me either because apparently I made this all up even though I told her everything I knew.

How do I move on without an admission to the obvious? I am stuck on this. I feel like I will never be able to fully get past this until he admits I was not crazy and he was having an affair.

Thanks,

Crazy Lady

Dear Crazy Lady,

Don’t predicate your healing on what your ex does or does not do. He’s not going to admit to cheating. He’s not going to apologize. He’s not going to change his character-assassinating narrative that This Is All Your Fault. Why would he? The story of cruel Crazy Lady and her Ridiculous Trust Issues is much more palatable to him (and some others) than the reality of I Am a Shady Fuck Who Abandoned His Family.

But! But! He cheated! Why won’t he admit it?

Because it’s inconvenient for him. First of all, you’re arguing over money in your divorce. Do you live in a fault state? Is there a chance you might get a sympathetic judge? He needs his innocence schtick. You seem to think there is some value to facts over fiction, that reality trumps his self-serving hogswallop. You’re failing to look at this through the lens of the disordered — “truth” is situational. Whatever story helps him get what he wants is the “truth.” People might look upon him differently if they knew the facts, so he changes his “truth” to match his agenda.

Trust me, if people were handing out medals for abandoning children and fucking around? He’d be right there claiming his prize. That’s why the “truth” changes depending on the audience. If the audience is a fuck buddy? That’s one truth. If it’s his mother, that’s another. If it’s you? Story changes again.

Don’t try and understand this shit. Just recognize that these shape-shifting amoral fuckwits exist, so you don’t get broadsided. I’m sure if you told big, whopping lies all day you’d break into a sweat and grind your teeth at night, and suffer all sorts of guilt. Not the disordered. There’s no empathy chip there, there’s just pure unbridled self-interest, so it doesn’t faze them.

When you expect disordered people to live by the norms of rational, caring humankind — you’re going to be bitterly disappointed. The best you’ll get (and only if there is a boot on their necks) is feigned half-hearted “understanding” of the Mistakes Were Made variety. So let this unicorn of closure go.

I feel like I will never be able to fully get past this until he admits I was not crazy and he was having an affair.

You are not crazy. He was having an affair. You WILL get past this just fine. Hold on to your integrity and your grip on reality. You know what you saw. If he were innocent? This is not how loving people behave. Someone who cares would go to great pains to make you feel secure. They would be transparent. It would hurt them to hurt you (aka: empathy). You had none of that.

Let the fuckwit think and feel and spout whatever nonsense he wants. You don’t control that. You just control you. (How many times do I say that a week? I should start an odometer or something…) Focus on building a new life free of his mindfuckery. Get some distance. Point and laugh at his delusions. Never give those delusions the power to stop your progress. (HE MUST ADMIT HIS VILLAINY!)

Trust that he sucks.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Thank you so much for this article — it says the things I need to hear. This is what James Bond did to his sweet wife!!!

    • Many cheaters will NEVER admit to cheating
      I’m sorry.
      It is infuriating, frustrating and horrible.
      You know the truth…those credit. And statements, the circumstantial evidence and your gut don’t lie.

      The first step is to try and accept that you gave your life to a cheater. This takes time, lots and lots of time – and then even more time! You may never get there. I still cannot fully understand the how and why, but I do not care at all. It is a fact and it doesn’t matter.

      I know every Chump wants to believe they have achieved meh.
      It is a great goal but it isn’t that easy.
      I believe that if you “think” you have gotten there, you haven’t. You will know when you are there; it cannot just be achieved or rushed. It will just happen and you won’t have any doubts when you get there. And it is worth the wait.

      It is my personal belief that the divorce process has to be finished. When you get that final declaration from a judge or in the mail, it isn’t easy. THEN the healing starts.

      Focus everything you have on digging and searching so you get the best deal for yourself. At the end of the day, that is the most important thing you can do right now.

      Then work on accepting what you know is true. If you can accept that the cheating happened (not understand why) that is a good first step.

      Baby steps with no pressure to get anywhere at any time. You will! And that is something you can count on.

    • I don’t think you are crazy at all!

      I found my cheater on “Naughty Date” (and other cheater sites) parading around in his birthday suit- begging for sex from women half his age (and younger). Even before that…my spider senses were tingling off the charts. Cheaters are not so slick. There is always a foul, dark cloud swirling around them. You can’t touch it…see it or smell it- but you know it’s there.

      Trust your instincts…ignore the cheater’s BS.

  • Same here Crazy Lady. Same, same. Name it. To yourself. He cheated. He is a cheat. And what did you do next?

    Change the narrative in your mind. He won’t own up to anything. Ever. He doesn’t need to. You call it. You name it, and then process.

    I’m nearly three years out, and I’m still battling his (ex) non-committal approach to communication about kids and money “I’ve got places to be and things to do.” was his excuse for dropping the kids off and running last Sunday. No worries mate. It was a chore like getting a tank of petrol.

    My point is exactly what you already know. Own your own actions because you are in control. Of you. Your integrity, your actions and your forward steps for your kids. People you know who’ve never experienced it won’t truly get it. That’s what I find myself struggling with sometimes.

    • EXACTLY!! You already know, Crazy Lady, so you don’t need him to confess it. BUT…I contradict myself. I know EXACTLY where you are at, because this was me for about 18months. I know EXACTLY how you are feeling. It drove me BONKERS. I had to have counselling to get through it. Because I started doubting myself and my evidence. Please don’t you do this to yourself!!! He cheated, I guarantee it. From what you’ve said, he’s guilty!! He just doesn’t want to f**k up his lovely (false) image. So it’s easier to paint you as the mad woman who has ‘done him wrong’. I’ve been there, done that. And everybody kept saying to me “why do you have to hear a confession from him?! You already know!!” But I did need to hear it. I know how you feel – because this was me. I felt “stuck”. Almost like I couldn’t move on and lay it all to rest until I had him confess. It’s was truly awful.

      I left my cheater without him knowing, hence my call name – we were living overseas, the kids and I went on “holidays” back home, but really I was leaving him at the airport, never to return. He didn’t know that I knew about his cheating. I went home, lawyered up and served him papers from an ocean away. He was floored. Had no idea at all that I knew about his mistress. Then he DENIED it even after I had ALL the incriminating evidence. Just flatly DENIED. Called me crazy. Accused me of having a boyfriend, and that’s why I left him (oh puh-lease). Told his whole family I was a controlling bitch who just “couldn’t get my way” and so I left. With the kids. And poor him. Everybody felt sorry for him. Even a friend of mine who said I “didn’t try hard enough to understand him”. Yeah – I cut that ‘friend’ loose, buh-bye Switzerland!

      He denied it all for a long time, maybe more than 18months. Then last month I forced a confession out of him. I was in a good position to though. So I was lucky. I have been awarded custody of the kids and there is a Federal Police border watch in place to prevent him from taking them out of the country, should he come here and try to take them. The only way he can visit them is to come to my country, where the kids and I are living (which, but the way, is not his country). He has to have supervised visits, and he has to pay for it. It’s damn expensive and he only gets a few hours with them. He asked for more access to the kids. I said no, because I couldn’t trust him. The courts were on my side. I told him things would stay the same (expensive supervised visits) since I couldn’t trust him because he continued to deny my reality and wouldn’t speak the truth about what he did. He finally cracked, and confessed. And it was a huge relief for me. Yeah, I know, I shouldn’t have played dirty. But WTH, he played me for so long, I didn’t care any longer. Also, I shouldn’t have needed to hear it from him to make me feel better. But, I did. It was driving me absolutely INSANE. So, really, I understand what you are going through. But I know now, my instincts were right. So I’m telling you, trust those instincts. Let him play his pathetic game of badmouthing you and keeping people on his side. One day they will know the truth and they will feel like total assholes. Just take the high ground, focus on your kids and make their lives as lovely as possible. Take support from your family and close friends. Get some counselling to help you work through it. Let him play his game. He’s so sad, he needs to uphold his fake image of “the good guy that has been wronged by you”. These types are all about maintaining their plastic images. Let him. You know the truth. Trust yourself. I know this may sound hypocritical of me to be saying this, when I myself couldn’t let it go without a confession from him. But I see now that I didn’t need to hear it. I already knew, as do you. So trust yourself. Because you may never get a confession out of him. My mother swore he would take it to the grave, that he would NEVER confess. I think she was right – but I was lucky enough to be in a position that I could force it out of him. His business had just gone bust, the kids didn’t want to see him, and he was missing them. I never kept them away from him, but the supervised visits were killing him. He hit the lowest of lows, and I had him by the short and curlies. He had nowhere to run. The f*cker.

      I know I’m saying all this now, in hindsight. I too was like you, it was driving me f-ing nuts. But the confession didn’t tell me anything new/that I didn’t already know. The funny thing about it all?…he thought he still had a chance to “win” the kids and I back! Bahahahahaha, no chance motherf*cker!! You made your bed – get back on the plane and go lay in it. With your 24-year-old mistress. The kids and I will continue one with our wonderful new life without you. Toodles!

      Focus on the kids and yourself. Let him run his game. It’s all he’s got. These types are lazy – one day he’ll really f*ck up. By then, you would have long moved on. Power to you! Believe what you KNOW. You know it all already. His confession isn’t going to tell you anything new. You did the right thing by tossing this junk away.

      (((Hugs)))

        • LH@TA,

          Thank you for sharing your story of mightiness. You did not play dirty. You were fighting for you and your kids and getting away from a fuckwit!

          He didn’t give you and your children a second thought when his giving into impulses and desires with a 24 year old cum bucket.

          There’s a time for empathy and playing fair; this wasn’t the time. He is serving the consequences of his choices and actions. Poor sad sausage now.

          I admire your courage and mightiness!

          • Thank you Freenow. I was very lucky though – I had a handful of really awesome kick ass people in my corner that helped me through a lot. Also have a strong mother who had my back. When I look back now, he didn’t stand a chance! Mwahahaha! He got his just desserts. He played me for a fool for a long time. But in the end, guess who was the fool? He had no idea that I knew about his cheating. Even now he is scratching his head, because I never told him HOW I found out. And I was very careful about what I said to him so as to not incriminate my information source. He’s so daft – it was one of his staff members. He still has NO IDEA, even now. Stupid is as stupid does ??

            • Love this …I’m going through the same shenanigans…my soon to be ex has been living life ….i found a picture of him kissing another woman and he says it was years ago…but i know he’s lying. …we’ve been married 12 years…he won’t admit that it’s a recent picture of him. I recognize the shirt he’s wearing and he bought it only 2 years ago… he sickens me.

        • Great reply LHATA however I have found that the need for the fuckers to confess is our need to be validated … Victims of crime can truly begin their healing once they are validated … And this is what our court systems attempts (woefully) to achieve justice for some. This is where a good psychiatrist/psychologist/counsellor can help in getting you to a place where you feel “heard” and BELIEVED re the mondfuck that is cheatersville.
          My rage is more centred on why the FUCK this deceitful behaviour this not part of our legal system and why we chumps have no real legal recourse against these MONSTERS parading as regular human beings !!!

          • Yassss!! Totally agree. VALIDATED! This is how I felt, that I needed his confession to move on and get past it. Yes, I don’t know why the legal system doesn’t see us as victims of crime. It is a crime!! It’s FRAUD!! He was a fraud. Sold me a dodgy product that was faulty (his word). And risked my health (gave me an STD, that was thankfully treatable). They need to change the legal system.

      • Oh hell no girl, you didn’t play dirty! You played to win and winning means a healthy, normal life for you and your kids. That is NOT playing dirty by any means. You are mighty!

        • Thanks Beth. I did feel like I was “playing dirty” because it was totally out of character for me to do what I did. I’m. It like that usually. But he fucked up our lives and I was LIVID!! Was seeing red. And you don’t upset mother hen. I didn’t whatever I did to protect my chicks. He didn’t stand a chance, the loser

        • Thank you QueenMother. It felt dirty, because it wasn’t really my style. But I had to adapt a bit to deal with him and his crap. Did what I had to without going overboard. Thank god it’s over.

  • “Cheater refuses to tell the truth.”

    In related news, “Rattlesnake refuses to be warm-blooded” and “Pile of dog shit refuses to smell like roses.”

    It’s just who they are.

    • And “Leopard refuses to change his spots”.

      Crazy Lady, mine deleted all the evidence I found in his phone and is now portraying me to his family as a crazy lady with mind games. I read. I saw. But it does not exist anywhere anymore. Even the confessions he made post DDay – I misunderstood them.

      So yesterday in a heated conversation he told me that I take this too seriously. I need to lighten up. I made a big deal of his 12 year cheating. So what!? All men do – come on, don’t be so naive! And the frosting: If I wanted to go back to be together, he could still reconsider. Agh…

      • Ah yes, the old “naive” accusation-as if that was what was the REAL problem. And mine threw in the mindfuck of “you are so judgemental” said with an air of injured conviction.
        Blech.
        This whole “wanting everyone to know what he did” is what I am struggling with in therapy. His family, the new woman, the Switzerland friends, the new friends-everyone in his life–because, hey! They will all be as appalled as I am at what he has done, right?! Nope. Plus, although I know it only just prevents me/is from getting to that place where “the walls of our houses will sing again”, they just didn’t/don’t have the same relationship with him. They are not invested in the same way as I was. It is a waste of time, Crazy Lady. It sucks big time, but just know we ALL get it.

      • Oh man! “You need to lighten up, everybody does it.” Was part of the 3 million reasons it wasn’t THAT bad. Just more “not what I did but your reaction that is the problem.”

        He also moved the goal posts, pretending there was nothing but being a supportive friend to OW. Ha ha! All I have is damning circumstantial evidence. So what? It is enough.

        • Hey Alethela —

          You have circumstantial evidence? When I shared my circumstantial evidence to a person in authority, she said, “You are believable and your story is compelling.”

          compelling (def’n) • not able to be refuted; inspiring conviction: compelling evidence | a compelling argument.

          ALSO, admission counts in court, my attorney told me. James Bond admitted several things to me.

        • Ha,ha! I got the’he was just helping her ‘ too,even after I told him I found his written notes comparing us, including sexual appeal. I don’t need him to admit it. Don’t give them any power. You can move on regardless. You are strong.

      • “I made a big deal of his 12 year cheating. So what!? All men do – come on, don’t be so naive!”

        Fuck that noise. I’m a man. I don’t cheat. Never have, never will. Here’s some true statements:

        Real men don’t cheat. Neither do real woman. They care about their spouses.

        Hugs. Strength. Peace.
        aeronaut

        • Thank you Aeronaut. Hopefully, I will find a man with integrity one day. If not, totally content on being with myself. Still have a few years to enjoy my son. And hoping he won’t get too confused under the sporadic influence and gaslighting of his disney-fun-adventure promoting cheater dad.

      • Oh HELL TO THE NO he didn’t! He said you could have him back perchance you’d like to have his sorry ass back? Oh, no thank you! Haha, hilarious.

        Mine did the same – once he had confessed (which I FORCED out of him through dirty tactics. My bad. Sorry, not sorry) he thought that all would be well and good, and that the kids and I would come back to him. This is the best part in my whole story – the loser thought he still stood a chance. I was speechless to hear it! I mean, the audacity!!!! I really think he believes he is THAT special, that I would take back the wonderfulness of him. Didn’t happen. Won’t happen. Told him this ship has sailed, then promptly sent him to the airport to get the hell out of my country. Bye Felicia ??

        • LH@TA, I loved your mightiness in your story. I am still in early stages. Haven’t even lawyered up yet. It helps he only visits here once or twice a year. He is scheduled to go back (finally!) After spending the last 4 weeks here staying with his mom. Son also spent most days with him but comes home regularly as she lives closeby.

          My plan is to meet with a few lawyers next month and finally start the process. The cheater plans to be back in the summer so I am foreseeing some “fun” times!

          • Your asswipe is overseas too? He only comes here every 4 months or so, which is good. Even then, he’s not switched on to the kids’ needs. It used to throw us all a bit, the visits would break our routine and take a few weeks to get over. But the last time he came I didn’t allow that to happen. I’ve worked out how to deal with him in a better way. But it took advice from lawyers, counselor and social workers. Please try counseling, if you haven’t already. My counselor was from a women’s refuge and was very good at helping me realize and acknowledge that what he did to me (and the kids) amounts to domestic abuse. Helped me work through it and gave me the confidence I needed to lawyer up, put my big girl panties on and kick his ass. Wanting to do the best by my children was a great accelerator. I didn’t (and don’t) care about him. It’s all about the kids. When he came last month, he complained that I “didn’t give him any sympathy when his business went bankrupt” 2 months ago. Bahahaha, what did he expect?!? I didn’t give a shit!! Not my problem anymore ?? Take that shit to your mistress. Honestly, they are all about themselves. Best of luck with the lawyers. (((Hugs)))

            • Yes. We’ve been living like this for the past 6 years since 2011. Son and I moved to Canada after the uprisings in northern africa. He stayed behind. He is a Canadian citizen though which makes it easy for him to travel to and back. His mom has been very helpful all along. Like family. Although I can tell now the blood is thicker than water. Her attitude changed although she tries to present herself as impartial. Her first husband (cheater’s dad) was a cheater and she left him after 12 years. So she knows deep down how I feel but it’s still her son. She remarried and moved to Canada with her son (the cheater) who after graduating from uni went back to the middle east. Then a few years later we met in my country. Got married. I moved to his country for him where I lived for 6 years. Then came to Canada (because his mom was here and it made sense to immigrate) and have been here for the next 6 years which were essentially long distance and very convenient for the cheater’s purposes. He only came here in the summers combining his trips here with visiting his long term whore from another country. Very internatiinal experience here! Haha!

              Looks like he is determined to fight though (mostly over son’s time since we don’t have assets) because he wants to keep things as they are. Who divorces over minor things like cheating?! He even told me I could go find a boyfriend if I want.

              Clusterfuck!

              • Longtimechump – I wasn’t married to my cheater. Made it easier in some ways. We also didn’t have mutual assets, so the only thing to fight over is the kids. However, I have the law on my side. And, he is showing his true colors because he hardly ever contacts them, maybe once every 2 weeks. It has been almost 1 year since I left him. I don’t know how you’ve been doing this for 6 years!! My kids cannot be bothered speaking to him now, and they are only 6 and 8. I have NEVER bad mouthed him. They have just figured it out on their own. Before we left him, he was hardly ever home anyway. They hardly saw him, he had already departed from family life long ago. So, they got it. They get it. I didn’t have to tell them anything. Even that young, they know they cannot rely on him.

                He’s really lazy with the contact. He comes here every 4 months or so, like I mentioned, has his fill of the kids and then it’s like ADIOS!…we don’t hear from him for ages. The kids get their fill of him too and then they’re over it. Is there any way, in Canada, to prove that he’s abandoned/neglected you all, and for you to get prime custody since they’re in your care and you’re the one who is raising them? I have custody, and he has to work around what I say, because there are no court orders in place that stipulate how much time he gets with them. He’s too lazy to get a lawyer and fight for the kids, so I’m lucky in that respect. He doesn’t actually want to have the responsibility of raising them, so I’m in a good position whereby I can flick him off and he’s not waging war with me. He likes his freedom, the asshole. So, he’s not going to take me to court anytime soon, if ever. Highly doubt it.

                I hope he’s supporting you financially, because if he’s not, GET A LAWYER! Mine pays some support. I enforced it!! There was no way I was going to allow him to waltz in every few months to play Disney Dad if he wasn’t going to help pay for their upbringing. So far he’s been OK, only because he comes from a culture where what he has done to us is very SHAMEFUL. His family are totally disgusted by what he’s done, it’s really embarrassed them. But yeah, like you say, blood is thicker. They are nice to me, but he is still their son/brother, and they will always side with him. What a sad sausage. I wish you luck with your situation. (((Hugs))) from Western Australia ?☀️??

    • Mine told me last night he doesn’t believe in lies. WTF
      If you don’t believe in lies you don’t believe in truth.
      Then crapped on about truth being in poetry or some wanky crap.
      He must of wooed dumb bitch with this form of cryptic shit.
      He doesn’t get it, a piece of the puzzle was left out at the factory.
      The more attention I pay when I’m bothered, the more I see.
      “You can deny reality but you are never immune to the consequences of reality”

    • Laugh of the day, Nomar! Just what the doctor ordered for this gray, cold, dreary day contemplating entering a den of narcs to attend a narc parent’s funeral. I will picture a newspaper headline with one of these gems whenever any temptation to engage with the disordered strikes. In other news……..carry on. Thank you!

    • OMG! This sounds like a Fun Friday Challenge! Newspaper headlines! Sound bites! Interviews!

    • Nomar’s the best. It’s calming to know that I now look at my dogs shit and Fucktard’s lies with the same amount of interest. Both are just smelly crap I had to wipe off my shoes to move on.

  • Mine wouldn’t admit it either–right away. In fact, while we were separated he took the bimbo to a family get together (I did NOT go), and told them he met her after we separated. My kids called him on the rug for it.

    Disordered individuals indeed. Taking the moral or ethical road is too hard for them. Means they have to be honest–it’s impossible. I am pretty sure my ex still cannot tell the truth. Will still give anyone the most convenient “story” — not just about his cheating. I don’t even think he deliberately mind fucks. It’s just who he is. So even 12 years post-divorce and we happen to be at the same place, I just let his words go in one ear and out the other. No need to get stuck in is pile of shite!

    • Count my disordered XH in this mix as well. We had a super fast divorce driven by his borderline personality-disordered shmoopie. Time elapsed from ILYBINILWY to divorce and XH bringing whore to meet his disordered parents: 5 months. He told them she was “just a friend”. They knew otherwise (yours truly sent them the receipts to their “friendship” including hotels and dinners). They chose to believe their Golden Child. The only ones that didn’t believe him were his brother and sister-in-law.

      It absolutely devastated me that not everyone was convinced of his affair. But then, I think his affair was almost impossible for me to accept. I mean, it flew in the face of 18 years of experience I had with him where I didn’t know he was a cheater. I only had receipts and his behavior on this. Odd things like whore’s friend stalking us in a restaurant and then FB friending me within days of me being served with divorce papers. I never actually caught him with the whore, nor did I have phone records (XH would drive 50 miles roundtrip to pick up the mail as he “didn’t trust” me in my “anger”. My good friend sat on a Grand Jury during that time. She told me if this had been a murder case, he would have been indicted and probably convicted. Therapist said the same.

  • I had letters between them which he broke into my house to steal and I still didn’t believe the reality for a long time.

    He cheated. He is a con artist. Meh will come.

    • I received a photo of Narkles the Clown and the Flying Whore in a very compromising position from an anonymous email. His only concern was who sent it, not how it made me feel to see it. Oh, and he still denied he was having an affair.

      You will get mighty. You will get divorced. You will move on. Don’t try to find the logical reason for any of their actions. Spend the energy healing you.

      • Yes. My ex completely pivoted out of “here’s the evidence” denial mode and straight into Adulterous Sherlock Holmes trying to deduce the identity of the dastardly tattle tale who dared give his wife a heads up about his cheating.
        I swear I thought I saw him twirl his evil mustache and use a monocle.
        Sadly, this gal caused a lot of marital upheaval on the Facebook group she still cavorts around on to this day. So several enraged wives and more than a few decent men sent me screenshots of what was going down.
        After reading them and swearing to unearth the sneaky culprit he actually said “if I read those it sounds like I’m having an affair, but I’m actuall not” like my interpretive skills had short circuited.

  • Even if he DID admit to the affair he would still blame you. “You MADE me do it!!! and I AM FORCED to leave you because you snoop too much and I can’t trust you.”
    If you think the failure to admit guilt drives you crazy, try the blame shift mindfuck.
    Maybe he wasn’t having an affair. It matters not. The way he treated you is UNACCEPTABLE and I hope you would have filed for divorce if he had not bear you to it.
    Also note that your healing will really get underway after divorce is final. Hard to heal when proceedings are underway.
    Good luck and Know that Chump Nation has your back.

    • OMG! I had this. Ex wife got caught and the emails proved it. Yet she denied it, even after I showed her the emails. I didn’t need her to admit it. Then eventually I got the “You made me do it”. “There’s no way back from this because you could never forgive” I started to see that she did me a favour by not accepting my offer of reconciliation. I’m still looking for justice; Something obvious that demonstrates total failure of her life. Unlikely I will see it but I do hear that life isn’t so rosy over there. I’m not at meh but getting there. Never had an apology and don’t expect it.

      • I got an apology….TWICE! Still go F&^% yourself, Skankboy! A week after I tossed him out, he asked if he could live on the other side of the house and we could date…..Ummmm, I’d rather gouge my eyes out with a plastic spoon!

        • Hah! Same house and date? Oh hell no! I accidentally dated you in the past. I am not repeating that mistake again.

      • Allatsea —

        I’m really worried now because I see other disordered people. Some are church people, doing God’s work (not cheaters, but manipulators still). I really struggle with how to handle it. I’ve spoken up, and have paid the price (dearly).

        I wish I didn’t know now, what I didn’t know then: not all people are good, some people don’t give a damn about being good — they laugh at your naivete.

        My own aunt tried to seduce my husband. (Dirty bitch — I’m thinking to tell her husband that I will gladly testify against her if he divorces her.) See? Why do I have to see behind the masks of these ungodly people!!!!

  • I am a full year past actual divorce in a no-fault state and my cheating ex still completely denies he cheated. All I ever got was a non apology “Mistakes Were Made”.

    It’s just how their assholiness works.

    I didn’t let his assholiness stop me from getting to Meh, and you shouldn’t either. Acceptance was the key for me. I accept that everything I thought he was (human being with a soul, family oriented, a good man) is a lie……and then I moved on.

    • Exactly FBO! “Mistakes were made” is right up there with “I tripped and fell into her gaping vagina”. Totally not his fault. He tripped and fell into her. A mistake was made. HE didn’t make a mistake. It just happened. Ugh. Lies were made. Stealing money happened. Fucks were given to randoms. It all sounds so much better when you don’t own to it by using “I”. I made a mistake. I lied. I stole money. I cheated. Yeah… too much accountability when it’s phrased like that.

    • Mistake were made. Vaginas were penetrated. Dicks were sucked.

      Seriously, once you start playing out the passive voice logic, it’s all quite clear.

  • My married neighbor is a cheater and a liar. He will never admitted it. He took advantage of me 3 years ago. I told his wife. She calls me a liar…Yet through talking to my other neighbors in my building, I found out he’s been cheating throughout his marriage. What worst his wife knows he cheats and yet she takes him back. And she calls me a liar. If so, then I guess my other neighbors is a liar too….I believe she doesn’t know about the others neighbors…if so she realize her husband has been making a fool of her throughout the marriage///love is blind…

  • My ex husband has a 2.5 year old with another woman and still maintains that he never cheated on me.

    He had an affair for at least a year with another woman before that, but told me he was “taking cases” in the organ procurement field.

    During our divorce, I subpoenaed his employment file which included his time sheets of when he clocked in and out.

    At the deposition, he said that he often forgot to clock in and out when he worked nights, alone, but used his own unique security alarm code to disarm the clinic’s security system. So I subpoenaed that too.

    I proved lied in his deposition and was not working when he said he was. All of this was presented to the judge in chambers, along with the report from our psychological exams, and I was awarded sole custody of our two girls.

    To this day, my ex has never admitted to cheating. They never do. His family hates me. The feeling is mutual. His family created that narcissistic monster, and I want their exposure to my children limited because they call me a liar and worse to my children. As in my children come home saying, “Gram said you are a liar about XYZ, mommy. She said this happened…”

    Sometimes these things are a blessing in disguise. Super big hugs!!! Keep your chin up. It does get easier.

      • Me too! Call them out in a court of law and expose them for who they are. It likely won’t result in more (even in fault states, adultery means little unless you can prove economic impact), but you must have felt vindicated to have the truth be heard.

        My ex admitted to the affair even in the response to my bill of complaint for divorce, BUT ONLY AFTER the date of separation. We are in a fault state. It never went to court, but we were fully prepared to subpoena email, his work calendar (OW was his secretary) and leave records. All were requested in discovery but he made some BS excuse and delaying tactics. He moved the OW into our home (s) one week after leaving the marriage, but there was no affair prior to date of separation?!!!! What judge would buy that? In the end, we are divorced. OW is sporting a big Rock on her left hand, all 2 months after divorce was final. She will be #4 (no, I was not married to Sha Sha Gabor!) and I am quite sure his future ex-wife. He needs the security of marriage but not the commitment that goes along with it. His family all believes his tale, it’s all me, he is the victim. Shame on those plastic people. They will never admit the trugh. It’s too hard to admit that they raised a 50+ year old serial Cheater who is a horrible father and self centered narricist. It’s easier for them. Shame on them.

    • Kelli, it sounds awful that you still have to be subjugated to crap when your kids come home from visiting your ex-family.

      This is why I find divorce so sad. It involves pain not only with the ex but also with his family. We not only lose a marriage but also an extended family. And the kids are part of that war (even if it’s not a war, it’s cold).

      • Oh, it’s no loss, *trust* me. My ex husband’s family sucks every bit as much as he does.

        My ex has decided that he is too awesome and sparkly to pay child support, in spite of the court orders to the contrary.

        After the two year fight to get the child support in the first place, I’ve decided that I’m not “doing the right thing” or playing nice or meeting them half way or whatever they call it when you constantly sublimate your needs in order to put the needs of the cheater first.

        Like I said, I have sole custody, and he gets a few hours of supervised visits every-other weekend. For the past year, he hasn’t even used his time. He allowed family members to take his time. So, I stopped allowing his family to use his time. He refuses to pay child support. I refuse to allow him to see the kids. He doesn’t care about seeing the kids, but it really chaps his family’s ass. So, that works for me.

        I live in an at fault state. While it didn’t help in the divorce settlement, it really helped when we had to go to a psychologist to get an expert opinion for custody. That psychologist *hated* my ex husband. And he gave him a scathing review.

        That was one of the instrumental factors in helping me to get sole custody, which is all I cared about. I just wanted my ex out of our lives. He sends whining texts because his family gives him a hard time about not seeing the kids. But, if he would pay his child support, the situation would be different.

      • Yes, losing the ex’s family is hard. I’m dealing with that right now. A few people reached out to me in earnest, but most just quietly shrunk away. I’m sure that they have heard a completely fabricated story about us “growing apart” or something. Not the reality that he decided to spend thousands on interactive porn and have an affair with his boss, all while pretending he was happy at home. Convenient…

        I just unfriended most of my ex in-laws on Facebook. I’ll still send Christmas cards, but I don’t need the window into their lives or to give them a window into mine. I need to feel safe and strong in my new life.

        • Ok, for argument’s sake, then why spend the time, money, and effort to send Christmas cards? Do you think they even care? If you don’t even want them on your social media, then why waste time and postage on a Christmas card? Because, trust me, if your in laws are anything like mine, the only thing your cards brought was snarky comments about you. No Christmas well wishes. Just ugly and sarcastic comments. Don’t waste your time.

          • Maybe you’re right. My logic is that social media is day-to-day, but Christmas is just once a year. I guess I have a while I figure it out still.

      • And adding: good for you that you don’t allow parental visitation to turn into “Grandma’s day to alienate the kids from their mother.”

  • See my story posted a couple of weeks ago. You know deep down in your gut that you are right, trust that instinct…I’ve discovered that it’s a powerful force. Many of the things you mention is exactly what my wife was doing. She did confess eventually after months of denials but only because I had so much evidence that she had nowhere to turn. She gaslighted me and made me feel like I was crazy, even convincing me I needed counselling and ADs but deep down I always knew I was on to her and the signs are similar to what you saw. I’m in the early days but I have filed for divorce and am selling the house. You are worth more than these horrendous.disordered scumbags and their entitled and selfish ways. Keep pushing forward, one foot in front of the other. I’m with you every step of the way and we will both be happier on the other side.

  • Mine had an affair 17 years ago with the one he eventually left me for.was his paramedic student back then and he ran into her again when she got a job in a local hospital in the blood lab and worked with my mother in law who reconnected them.
    Same story, it wasn’t about all his cheating it was about my behavior and my mother in law encouraged their “friendship” because her sweet angel son was so unhappy at home.
    Mine said he just talked and texted her for TWO years and it was never anything more than a friendship till 24 hours after he left me……no explanation for the time 2 months prior that I tracked his phone to a hotel.
    chumplady is exactly right, the story changes with the audience.
    I’m not interested, I know the truth.
    If you try to take on the task of figuring out the mind of your disordered asshole, it’ll be enough to have you rocking back and fourth in the corner someplace laughing like a psycho and wearing a diaper. I’m choosing not to sign up for that, you shouldn’t either.
    I trust that he sucks.

    • Maybe you can relate to this: have you since then heard friends or family say “but he wasn’t happy?”

      • My cheaters story has changed more times than I can count. First he didn’t cheat. Then I cheated so he had to get me back and now…HE WASN’T HAPPY!” Somehow this one hurts the worst. Wasn’t happy?? In my mind we had everything we ever needed and our life was good. Ugh! Why does this bother me?

        • The same story.First,they are friends.Then,he wants to get me back.Later,he cheat on me but only 2 or 3 times,nothing more.And last,he does everything for me and he cannot anymore…Is it cheaters cliche dear Newbie Chump?

      • I kind of use Chumpladys response to that when people say ” why would you want to stay with somebody that clearly wasn’t invested? ” or some version of this…..’
        The answer is – I wouldn’t want to stay with somebody that clearly didn’t love me. I would of preferred that he had an honest conversation with me or one of the two marriage counselor’s we saw and our marriage ended with the dignity and respect I would of given it had I been the one who decided to leave.
        He’s still sticking to the “we were just friends, she was somebody I could talk to…” story. I’ll assume he is, I don’t discuss anything with him.
        I have gotten the ” mistakes we’re made by both of us, I’m just trying to be a better person now…” speech.
        BARF!!!!
        If he was looking to be a better person he probably should tried to invest a tiny bit of that effort into the kids he firebombed and not operate thinking being better just means being awesome in his “new” family.
        This whole “getting them to admit the truth” thing will drive a person crazy.

        • I think at some point lying becomes so second nature to them that they stop doing it consciously. It’s an ingrained habit. My ex moved his stripper gf into his house before the divorce was final but legally that didn’t make any difference as far as the divorce went. But he still kept lying about it. Our daughter called him out on it when she called the house phone and the message was in some strange women’s voice saying “…we will return your call”. Rather than just saying yeah that’s my gf, he told our 20 year old daughter that he had had some friends over for a beer and one of them changed his voicemail message. Okay…. yep we all have friends from work over who randomly decide to change our voicemail message. LOL It was such a stupid lie. GF had pictures of herself at the cabin posted on FB with it listed as her address. And my ex took the “we both have a share in the blame” game a little further – being an accountant, he felt the need to assign percentages. “You were to blame too. Okay maybe not 50-50 but definitely not 70-30 either.” Fuck you dude. Faithful for 34 years. Not accepting blame for your stripper and porn habits. And absolutely YES on the “he probably should have tried to invest a tiny bit of that effort into the kids he firebombed…”. A thousand times yes on that one.

          • Beth,
            I agree with you. I think that my STBX knows what ‘truth’ is but I keep getting ‘I don’t want to hurt you’. After the first zillion times I said – you have already hurt me by doing the dirty, now at least tell me everything he couldn’t because ‘I don’t want to hurt you any more’.
            In some weird way if he doesn’t say he did it out loud then it didn’t really happen or it did happen but it’s almost nothing to do with him on this day in this room. That was the ‘other’ him ‘before’.
            That’s the other thing I learned, I had to ask the question in the right way from all angles so he couldn’t wriggle out of it. Define ‘sex’, define ‘seeing’, define ‘girlfriend’. It’s exhausting.
            I could totally negotiate Brexit now and write an ironclad treaty, with all my attention to exact wording and possible loopholes.

            • “That’s the other thing I learned, I had to ask the question in the right way from all angles so he couldn’t wriggle out of it. Define ‘sex’, define ‘seeing’, define ‘girlfriend’. It’s exhausting.
              I could totally negotiate Brexit now and write an ironclad treaty, with all my attention to exact wording and possible loopholes.”

              oh yes. this is it EXACTLY!! Hahahahahaha

          • There’s evidence that all one has to do to believe a lie is have it repeated. These cheaters “repeat” their own lies to themselves often enough that it becomes their reality.

            • This disturbs me so much. I believe it is the root of the difficulties my children sometimes face. They can see how sincere their father is at times–how can they not believe him? They can see the evidence that what their father says is not true–how can they believe him? The cognitive dissonance is difficult for us, but for kids it is absolutely baffling.

              I think they often conclude that their father is absolutely truthful but often wrong, when in fact their father is just a liar. And I grit my teeth and try to stay out of it.

      • That’s what they all say and that is what he tells them. That’s what he tells himself to get past the guilt and shame. He actually believes it now even though he was fine before he started screwing her! Amazing how that happens. How many of us have heard “I’ve been unhappy for 10 years and you never supported me”. It’s textbook crap.

  • This will be essentially the same as part of what CL said, but with a different “lens”.

    He has made it all about whether he did or did not cheat. Then, by claiming he did not cheat, he can devalue your steps to uncover whatever deception he was engaged in and label it as crazy and as his justification to leave the relationship and make it your “fault”.

    That brings me back to, why is cheating bad?

    Well, I think it’s first and foremost that deception is bad for a bunch of reasons. It indicates you are being and/or will be harmed – there’s no reason to hide a thing that is positive.

    Deception indicates that your partner is willing to share something important with someone else that you don’t know that s/he isn’t sharing with you. This illustrates a lack of intimacy in the relationship​. That doesn’t improve over time, research shows, and it creates a space where other bad behaviors tend to grow.

    Also, digging deeper into the harmful angle, a person who is willing to deliberately do a thing that could cause you any kind of harm – physical/health, financial, emotional, spiritual, social – shows a lack of empathy for your well-being.

    It may not be 100% clear that he cheated (and he may be defining that some weird way, so who knows what he’s actually saying anyway), but it IS 100% clear that he was deceptive and he didn’t show concern or remorse for how it hurt you.

    I guess my thinking is, don’t focus on what he might have done, focus on what he did. He lied about his whereabouts. He came home with fresh semen on his underwear. He engaged in suspicious behaviors that didn’t fit his relationship with you and when you asked about them, he got defensive and blamed you for being concerned, which is classic gaslighting and shows a lack of empathy.

    That is the long version of “trust that he sucks”, I know. I am sharing these thoughts because I know how the “what if I AM crazy” demons can visit you when you have a conscience, and these are the things others shared with me that helped me get through it at the time.

    He wasn’t good to you, cheater or no, and that wasn’t going to improve without directed intention and work on his part, which he openly refused to even try. The only reasonable choice is to let him go. It’s the only way you can build a healthy, stable home for you and your kids.

    Maybe it will help, to explore this angle… We support you.

    • On the evidence issue — people go to jail for murder on circumstantial evidence all the time. It’s about reasonable inferences. http://www.theforensicteacher.com/Evidence.html In the law, you don’t have to be 100 percent guilty, just beyond a reasonable doubt.

      I’d say in your own marriage the threshold of “proof” is even lower — as you rightly point out — is this behavior acceptable to YOU?

      However, I always come back to “people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.” A lack of transparency, IMO, is a smoking gun.

      I can’t say with 100 percent certainty that he cheated. I can say with 100 percent certainty that he’s shady. And you can’t feel safe with shady.

      • CL- you just summed up my whole life with Scuzzy in one incandescent, beautiful line:

        “And you can’t feel safe with shady”.

        Do you know what I remember most about our life together?

        I used to frantically tell little ethical parables, like a Sunday school teacher on speed, to get him to grasp basic moral concepts.

        I would get this blank stare and then a laugh, as he lit a cigarette and played with my hair, like I was developmentally disabled cat, that everyone petted fondly but wore a teeny tiny dunce cap.

        But when I saw how he conducted business, it used to keep me awake until the wee hours of the morning. Left over supplies from jobs at people’s homes would be in our supply building.

        Me: Did you asks the Smiths if they wanted their tiles and marble back?

        Scuzzy: No. They were not home.

        Me: But they paid for this stuff! It is theirs. You have to offer it to them first before you have your guys pack it up. Those are big scraps…worth money. It is THEIR property. We billed them for it, with a 10% surcharge. You can’t just take it.

        Scuzzy: Okay Ms. Girl Scout Troop Leader. Go back to sleep.

        Me: It’s stealing, Scuzzy.

        Zzzzzzzz. Snore.

        • “Frantically tell little ethical parables”

          Yes! This was me exactly. Trying to do anything to get him to grasp basic moral concepts. Always. And he never ever got it. The good news is, my kids did!

        • Yes! One of my new rules for relationships” If you ever find yourself having to explain how to be a decent human being to a grown person–RUN! They are not relationship material.

        • Yup –

          Hey, I got the supplies/water/pop for free because the cashier didn’t see them to charge me! Am I supposed to do their job, too?” Red Flag! Red Flag!!

          I told the ethical parables, too. Good to know he listened and the met the AP right after.

          Their lives are what they tell themselves they are. Not what they are.

        • I told the ethical parables too. Not long before my cheater discarded us for his AP, I said to him,”I can’t teach you how to be a decent person!”

    • Beautifully put, Amiisfree, and captures exactly how we *should* all have thought throughout our marriages. It would have made the decision to divorce so much clearer.

      • Werd. I struggled so hard with all of this myself, questioning my sanity even for years afterward. I had no CL back then, and this space is truly a lifeline to those who need it. It’s even still a lifeline to me now, and I was already at meh when I found the site. 🙂

        • Bravo to you for figuring things out on your own pre-ChumpLady. A testament to your intelligence and strength of character.

          • <3

            And to a couple of excellent therapists who I wish to heaven I had found a few years sooner. 🙂

  • I played marriage police for three years and separated with him on circumstantial evidence. I was the same as you & please believe me you are not crazy!!! If he were innocent he would be doing backflips to prove you otherwise. I get it – it doesn’t feel complete without the ultimate confirmation of truth. Even if he confesses you will never trust that it’s the full story. I filed, went completely no contact, lawyers issued him with notices to take him to the cleaners and full custody of our babies. 3 months separated & not caring what the truth was anymore & all of a sudden he confessed….five prostitues over ten years & turned into a complete unicorn. We’ve been reconciled for over a year and it’s a major head fuck. He is better than the unicorn stories chump lady speaks off yet I won’t ever get over it nor believe he is telling the full story. It’s better when your fuelled by anger. I’m back in limbo again – same as before and same as you feel now. Free yet trapped by deceit. I’m sorry you feel this way – it’s terrible. Speaking from experience the best way to let go is to feel the anger, listen to your own truth and don’t get sucked into his mind fuckery. Tell yourself that it doesn’t matter if he ‘told the truth’ because it would all be a lie anyway. That is the only truth you need. Don’t end up like me – left a cheater, gained a life….returned to a cheater & is regretting life. Hugs to you xxxxoooo
    Love you Janet if your reading xxx

    • I’m so sorry, mp. I only did 6 weeks of faux wreckconciliation and it was horrible. I feel for you that you’re living with someone you can’t trust, and you’re always looking over your shoulder. We’re here for you at CN.
      🙁

      • Thanks Chris W, that’s so lovely! Definitely my place of solice here and true reality. It’s good you got out after 6 weeks and wised up quickly.

      • Like to add mines swore it was an EA as she lives OS. I believed this or wanted to.
        Threw him out anyways, took him back 5 weeks later, had three weeks wreckoncilation until I found the photos on his phone of their hook up she flew 5 hours for, three days at least together, the old work trip line.
        Totally looked me in the eyes. I want to be with you and kids bs. Threw him out within two hours of find.
        He had if he wanted the golden ticket to remove her from his life as she now lives a long way away and focus on us and I would have accepted it as an online EA.
        Sorry buddy you rolled the dice and surprise the casino won cause your on your own now apart from what you consider a ‘long term relationship’ with some whore OS you haven’t seen in a year, she is married, jobless, childless and dependant on her husband, what a winner, get the feeling I’m winning already 2 months out.

            • I suspect he paid for it and still is, he is in a lot of debt.
              He would have seen it as her being dedicated and an act of twu wuv.
              Consummating all that shady Skype love they had been having for the last three months or so.
              Both sad sacks,
              Would like to add that I’m rocking that post trauma weight loss and being the yogi I knew I would always become, lose a man child gain a shit load of free time and energy.
              Adios losers. 2016 my gut told me something was up and my body showed it also, gaining 7 kgs, trust your instincts.

    • MP & Chris.
      I only managed one month with mine and that was with divorce proceeding and agreed. It was just awful. It was like being suffocated day by day.

    • Right there with you mp. He is being a ‘unicorn’ and I am sitting here realizing it would have been better to take a different path. I honestly wish my husband had been a complete shit head and it would have been clear to take the exit and run.
      Mine also did the prostitute thing and webcam girls. He is trying to prove he is a ‘new man’ and I am sitting here wondering what have I done? Why did I not choose to run with the kids on d-day. I am wondering if he looked at the divorce settlement he agreed to and thought “It is cheaper to keep her”. Even if he is a ‘new man’, I am still getting the short end of the stick.

      Those with a 100% jerk, honestly – the grass isn’t easier on the other side. Chumps always get the raw deal.

      • Cool Breeze,
        I thought I had a unicorn too. He told me everything about the skypping, porn and craigslist hookups that was his double life for 10 years, he went to therapy, he did all cooking and shopping while I recovered from the nervous breakdown of Dday – months. He said he wanted to live a transparent life of honesty and integrity. He wanted to be the husband I deserved. I believed it all. I treated his double life as not a sign of character defect but a sign of an addiction – and I thought maybe he could come back from this and be the man I thought I married.

        But as my fog cleared and I learned more about narcissism and I went to therapy, I started to have massive doubts. My therapist had been noncommittal about our chance of true reconciliation – she said sometimes people think their spouse’s alcoholism is the problem in the marriage and if only he would get sober all would be well. Then the spouse gets sober and is the same asshole he was and she realizes the alcoholism wasn’t the main problem at all.

        So as I got clearer, I watched his mask slip inch by inch. He never really took full responsibility – he would say he did, but they were just words. He did the subtle blameshift and was back to the gas lighting

        • oops hit post in mid sentence…

          Anyway, we are now divorced and his mask is fully off. He blames my anger and unforgiving nature for our divorce. His entitlement is monumental. He is entitled to his reputation, to forgiveness, to relationships with his kids, to my alimony payments to him, to a new life with his girlfriend (she doesn’t need to know anything about his past because what’s in the past is past right?) He discounts our pain “why can’t you all just move on, I have!”
          He is truly a horrible person who lives in an alternate reality.

          I don’t know how long he has been “unicorning” you, but you can always choose to move on Cool Breeze. Yes, I learned a lot in the 2 years, but I wish I had found CL earlier and I would have called it a day. Just more wasted years with a pathological liar. Not fun.

            • Queen Mother – I really don’t know what happened. My guess is that he white knuckled 18 months of no porn, hookups, Skype hookups, craigslist hookups. He was ashamed to have me know about his double life and he was trying to do anything to make it all go away. I never felt like he was really sorry though – and his later actions proved me right. The whole story is odd and I am so glad that I don’t care that much anymore about what exactly was going on. I wake up every morning so glad I don’t have to see him. So glad to be moving on with my life and not tied to a habitual liar with zero empathy. (Such a good actor though…)

      • Coolbreeze–You don’t need to satisfy public criteria for why you leave him. He was using prostitutes and having on-line sex via webcam? Probablility he will stop? less than 1%. He will ramp up as soon as he lulls you into a false sense of security. And next time he will go more underground.

        What he did already is sufficient to leave him.

        • I agree, even once with a hooker is grounds for an immediate divorce. you might accidentally get into something with a neighbor, or co worker , maybe but having sex with a prostitute is just so incredibly nasty to me.

    • I have a “unicorn” as well.

      A “very nice guy” – “so genuine” by all reports. He will say that he can’t go out until he checks with his wife… that he’s cheated on her before and needs to make her feel safe.

      He did all the things that Chump Lady asked of a unicorn. He is affectionate. He keeps fresh flowers in the house, buying them before they bloom so they last longer, just as I asked. Now, he buys me potted herbs or plants for me to keep going until I can plant – which I asked him to do instead – because I’d rather have use out of plants (I’m a great cook) than watch them bloom, then die for several weeks.

      He put all of the assets in my name, soley, and all of the debts in his name, solely. We have post-nup so tight that he could disappear or die and I’d not have to change a thing.

      He does family things, now.
      He takes me on dates, now.
      He openly says he used to betray his wife and will never do so again.
      The kids and I will happen to see his co-workers and they GUSH about how happy they are to meet his amazing wife and beautiful children.
      I can hardly sigh before he asks me what is wrong and how can he fix it…

      And even with all that, I wonder if he’s the most adept sociopath of them all. I’m waiting for the BIG fall out… is he gathering sympathy for when he finally falls again? Is this faux-humility with the intent for it to be *supreme* mistress bait?

      Three years since the last d-day… and he’s “perfect.” No one could find fault with him. He’s transformed his familial relationships and takes the largest of lumps with the appropriate amount of groveling/shame/retribution.

      But he was ALWAYS good at doing horrible things and not looking like the bad guy.

      The only – and largest – benefit to staying in this? I will never be blindsided so completely again. I am expecting it.

      But is that any way to live? I know it isn’t.

      • He sounds like my X who is a full-on covert narc. Listen to your gut. Even if you never find out any other proof of wrong doing, listen to your gut and decide how YOU want to live your life. What’s acceptable to you. Or let us know if you have found the elusive unicorn. How long was your X’s affair? If it was short and he came to you to confess, those are good signs. If it was 10 years and he got caught? (Like my X) Not a good sign for future behavior.

      • This sounds so familiar. He had cheated extensively before we were married, and I found out shortly after our first child was born. He behaved like the perfect unicorn, and it lasted years, until slowly I began to trust him again. But never fully. I know what you mean about “waiting” for it, expecting it…there was always this lingering doubt way at the back of my mind. I had nightmares every so often about him cheating. But still I believed he had changed and that he would never hurt me like that again. I gave him some rope and stopped being so much the marriage police. The truth is, he was just building up my trust so that he could take advantage of it. Ten years after the first DDay I was blindsided again when I caught him cheating with massage parlour whores, one of which had become his girlfriend. This time at least the decision to leave was easy.
        I am sorry for what you are going through. I don’t know how to advise you on what you should do. Is it worth it to you to keep on being the marriage police? Because if he is like mine, the minute you stop is the minute he takes advantage of it. 🙁

        • Ugh! What is it about massage parlor whores? They are available for sure. They are good listeners while giving them “happy endings”? Make excellent new wife appliances when you find out about them.

          Headline: Want Tru Wuv? Find it in Shady Massage Parlors Listed on Internet for Rub and Tugs. Make your Narcissistic Mom Proud

          Glad I’m divorced from the mindfuckery.

        • He cheated on me continuously (through all 3 of our children’s pregnancies/births/breastfeeding/diapers, during which I felt completely abandoned), until we purchased our first home and he ghosted the OW. In mid 2008. Changed his cell phone number and got a new carrier a month after we moved here, I didn’t know why and was mad about the termination fee. What I later learned is that the OW would text him in the middle of the night and show up at our door, and threatened to let me know if he didn’t come out. He saw us moving as the perfect opportunity to ditch her.

          He didn’t cheat until 5 years later. He was still an asshole of a husband and father but he wasn’t cheating until then… when he started up with a Chinese ho-worker who was a year OLDER THAN MY MOTHER. That’s why I never suspected her and he knew it. He knew what I was looking for and she would never, EVER cross my mind as being a whore. I call her Huli-Jing. (Look it up – I call her this every time I see her in public. “Hello- Huli-Jing!”) She was married to a surgeon. They had one daughter. They lived in our village also but in a very, VERY upscale neighborhood. I blew.her.world.apart. Her husband kicked her out. Her daughter detests her. They call her Huli-Jing also. It couldn’t happen to a more deserving person.

          • We’ve been together for 14 years, married in 2005.

            Cheated:

            -mid 2003- mid 2008
            *(Baby Mama #1 in 2003, Baby Mama #2 in 2004- didn’t know until they were born or almost born, last one “when you broke up with me that week,” didn’t do the math. It was before I broke up with him briefly. Our children were born in 2005, 2006, 2007.)

            -mid 2013- mid 2014. Bitch is too old to have babies. Clever shit, he was.

            Not a great track record.

      • A few months after my divorce was final, someone here on CL (I can’t remember who or what the thread was), brought up “the cheating was a GIFT”, and I embrace that wholeheartedly now. The cheating was the final straw (of the 3rd time I caught him cheating over 20 years), but my ex was truly an abysmal husband and father, even if you took the cheating out of it. He was a liar, emotionally abusive, a hoarder, horrible temper and would rage at waiters and service people, rung up huge debts, wasn’t present for my kids (barely made it to witness their births, even), that the last straw cheating was a GIFT to be able to get rid of him, finally.

      • Your story is interesting. It’s exactly what I thought I wanted just before my ex moved out. It sounds great on the surface, but how can you ever rebuild trust when it has been violated so deeply?

        In my case, the OW had cheated on her husband and reconciled a few years before my ex got involved with her. I think she was just waiting for another opportunity. That’s not to say that my ex wasn’t guilty… they both are. She was just laying in wait. And she already knew all sorts of tricks to cover their tracks.

        But like you, her husband was expecting it. He recognized the signs almost immediately and filed for divorce months before what I call D-Day. Between his filing and my D-Day, I was sure that my husband was really just friends with the OW. All the stages of denial. Ugh, so naive!

        If your husband cheats again, you’ll know immediately.

        (And speaking of “stories”, the OW told my ex that she was the one who left her husband. Nope! The public county records clearly show that he filed against her. Cheaters ALWAYS have their stories.)

      • I’m so glad you write this, InsistOnHonesty, because what you have described sounds exactly what I think reconciliation would look like. I guess I would also add the Full and Honest disclosure (sorry if you listed this in your letter above, and I did not see it).

        I never thought that there would still be the lingering doubt.

        I guess I would also be looking for such qualities as empathy, honesty, modesty — but from your letter, it’s still a unicorn.

        • He trickle-truthed for the first YEAR, while I was getting my ducks in a row after being a SAHM for 10 years.

          He attempted suicide when it ALL came out… and that didn’t go how his “former self” thought it would. He was sobbing (I was just dead inside, by this point, and didn’t even have tears when I learned it all) and pulled out my hunting rifle and couldn’t figure out where to load… the shotgun shells he’d pulled out (he’s a city boy.) I told him that he needed bullets. “They’re in the hatbox up on the wardrobe, btw. But you’ll never be able to reach the trigger if you want a shot to the head.” So he took off his socks.

          It was a Sunday night and when I walked into the downstairs, the kids were getting ready for school the next morning. I got MAD, stormed upstairs, and proceeded to remind him that if he was going to kill himself right then and there, he would confirm himself as one of the most selfish assholes to ever live. “Your children are going to hear the shot. If you succeed, they’ll always remember how their father killed himself with them there. If you just fuck yourself up because you’re an idiot with a gun, they’ll have a maimed father and see the stain of your blood and flesh on the walls and ceiling. Nice way to exit this mess you’ve made for all us, Asshole! If you’re going to kill yourself, LEAVE and do it somewhere else.” And then I took the kids out for a walk and to get ice cream, in case he actually decided to stay and do it anyway. He is a selfish asshole, after all. When we came back, tears were pouring down his face as he did housework. The rifle and shells were put away and he was washing dishes, having hung the laundry on the line.

          It’s been different since then. He told the children, age-appropriately, about what he did. To be kind to me when I was agitated. About why Mommy was crying for “no reason”… that it was about *him* being a terrible husband and a father who ignored his children that made Mommy cry, not anything they did. That he would change. And he has.

          He seems genuinely remorseful, empathetic, and honest. He’s an attentive husband, doesn’t become agitated when I go off on a rant or bring up his infidelity and general asshole-ish ways from before. He’s an active and interested father. He now speaks to and visits with his heartbroken mother, whom he hadn’t spoken to in 19 years (when his father left his mother), and invites her to visit from out of state so she can get to know all of us better. He polices himself and tells me; I don’t police him. He’s a salesmen and a LOT of his co-workers have cheated… his reputation is now of a narc. “You tell him/her or I will. I’ve seen what this does to a wife and family. Nothing is an excuse to cheat; a reason to divorce maybe, but not cheat.” HE didn’t tell me this… his longest co-worker did, when I asked why he wasn’t coming home with dramatic stories from work anymore. “They know not to share their stories around him; he’ll narc them out.”

          But seeming honorable is how the very best sociopaths get away with their antics. It’s how he always got away with it.

          There is always doubt. I wonder when (not if) he’ll tire of not being trusted despite being *perfect.* How many years will it take before he can’t keep it up anymore?

          • Insistonhonesty, I so want this to be true! Just one real unicorn story! But then, as you said, how long until he will realize he is not trusted? How long will it take you to trust back? 3 years after and with all those changes you don”t sound happy. Maybe content that your children live in an intact family. Maybe satisfied that he is involved now in their lives. But not happy. I so wish you happiness.
            Hugs to you.

            • No, no – he already knows he isn’t trusted. That is the default. I don’t trust anyone anymore and he is certainly aware. I’ve told him that it very well may never come back.

              He says he’s fine with that. He does seem to be fine with that. “No, no – I know I’m the reason why you can’t ever trust me again.”

              But he’ll tire of it eventually, no?

      • This is painful. Just reading this is too painful. The hope. Or hopium as CL said.

        I can relate to my last summer-self when all I could think of was for him to be that unicorn he suddenly turned into after he kept lying and gaslighting for 5 months since DDay. This is the key word: suddenly. First he gaslighted and placed blame on me for our failed relationship while carefully avoiding answering my questions directly. Then, after more pushing and feeling cornered, he suddenly came clean! Admitted the long term affair, multiple side sex flings and wanted to be a committed husband and father. Suddenly. This is one week after he blocked me on his telephone because I dared to send him texts full of my pain and accusations and wake him up at night. After that, I knew he was a monster. Somebody who did not care at all how I felt. No empathy. No feelings. Just blocked me. In our heated conversation a few days later I recall saying to cheater he should change the tactics. And he did! Did I tell you the cheater is smart?

        Then he turned into a unicorn. Admitted it all: what I suspected and many other things I did not even know about. He cried!!! Here is a macho alpha male crying – unseen, unheard and unthought of. Told me he would be honest with me going forward. In fact, even the way he said it, I thought he was a real unicorn. He said he could not guarantee that he won’t have feelings towards amother woman – and how could he!? We never know what awaits us! But what he could guarantee was that in case he felt something and wanted to act on it, he would come forward and be upfront with me about his intentions BEFORE doing anything. At which point it would be up to me to make a decision if I wanted to stay or leave.

        That was good for me! Chumpy, anyone? I thought, well, he was right! How can he know if he won’t fall in love with somebody else? How can he guarantee that he will love me till death? So if he guarantees honesty, at least I will know, and no matter how painful, it won’t be the pain of betrayal anymore.

        Next two months: Happy – Not happy. Waiting. He will fall off. No, he won’t! We finally have the communication lines open! We talk! 6 hours a day! He explained the deep connection with her and because we did not have good communications set up, he fell for it! Now we are different! We are open! We are stronger! We survived this!

        Two months later: rewind…start over.

        There goes the unicorn.

        P.s. after the major earthquake 30 years ago in my home country which took the lives of 50,000 people, I recall living every day with the fear it will happen again. You sleep with the fear. You wake up with the fear. You eat, take shower, go to work, have parties, work out, live – with the fear of what if…

  • They can’t admit to cheating because it doesn’t fit their story. My X told everybody that we had a loveless marriage, which is why we divorced. I was all in asshole….he was the one who was only thinking about himself. He went so far as to lie to the court about where he was living. He gave an address for one of his buddies when in fact he moved immediately from our home and in with the sluntress. He also lied to our son about his whereabouts. So many lies there that he couldn’t keep them straight. I mentioned this before but my son’s comment was “I don’t know what’s worse…him lying, or him thinking that I’m stupid enough to believe him.”

    I’m also convinced because the AP’s fall for their poor woe is me stories, they don’t believe they are cheating either. They both need to grow a set and own their shit!

    • In my case the whoremat was just as sad sausage as he was. She was “abused”, her AWFUL husband “cheated on her”, she was “SOOOOO UNHAPPY” that she stayed with someone that hit her and cheated for NINE YEARS before she MARRIED HIM. Yeah. No. Sorry. She needed my idiot cheater to rescue her. And he needed her to “rescue” him from a loveless marriage of frigidity and sexlessness and boo hoo sadness. Yep. I didn’t care. I didn’t love him. I was heartless and cold and boring and ding dong the witch is dead. That’s why I lost 20 pounds and almost 6 months later I still cry everyday and can barely eat anything. Because he was a paycheck and a room mate. They are so stupid and pathetic with the lies they tell themselves and each other. I own all my shit from the marriage. Any time we’ve gone skein untangling I freely and openly admit to all of my part of the marriage. But what I was while married had NOTHING to do with him cheating. He said he had no idea he could lose me and didn’t want to. And that he had no intention of leaving. If I WAS all those awful things he wanted to blame me for being he wouldn’t have wanted me around. They have to put the blame elsewhere because if they don’t then what kind of person are they? In their heads they are the hero of their own movie. If they had to look at it from any other perspective and they turn out to be the villain it ruins everything.

      • ^^ This is my story almost exactly. The “abused” MOW and they rescued each other from their horrible marriages. Assholio also said he had no intention of leaving me, but why not if I was so terrible? Can you say cake eating? I also owned what I contributed to our less than stellar marriage, but it was still no excuse to cheat. I never lied or did anything premeditated to purposefully hurt him, yet it was all supposed to be “equal.” Ugh.

  • I hate to say this, as someone whose divorce is over 2 years old, and DDAY was 3.5 years ago, but if you’ve bred with these fuck wits (I have 2 boys, age 10 and age 6), the lies keep continuing and even MORPHING to suit their needs, even AFTER they marry the AP. They are sick, sick creatures and only get worse as they get older.

    CL is right – you only control yourself. Be tough for your kids, and live an awesome, cheater – free life and you and your kids will be fine. Who cares how the Cheater and your ex – in laws fare?

    • Oh Chris W, I’m finding this is true. It only gets worse.

      DDay#2 for me almost 1 year ago, now divorced for 6 months. I spackled him normal for so long. Tried to teach the kids how to make him react like a normal parent for years–you just need to give dad time, let dad see how doing this or that for you would be a good thing –really, how it would be a good thing for dad–the only reasoning that worked with that fuckwit). Now the kids have to deal with dad on their own.

      Dad can’t pay for this or that cause dad is saving up to buy a house. The fuckwit makes 3 times what I do. We maxed out child support and no maintenance. Dad can well afford it-he just doesn’t want to. Welcome to the rest of our lives.

  • Crazy Lady, we married the same guy. His go-to word for me was/is “crazy” whenever he didn’t/doesn’t want to hear the truth. I’m not sure what that falls under in psychology but he used it for 15 years. I hated it. It was always hurtful to hear that. And he still can hurt me with it when I hear it.

    Mine never admitted to cheating either. Now that we are separated (well over a year with a pending litigation) he is “dating” the person I suspected he cheated with. When I told him about a bill I found to a restaurant/bar a few months after he left, he said, oh, yeah, I was out with her, probably telling her how bad my marriage was. He met her at his gym. She is 12 years younger, has a young child and was married as well. Later I found out from a friend who worked there that they had been working out together side by side for a loooong time. The people at the gym, apparently, were beginning to scratch their heads.

    We fought in our marriage about his mom, finances (he had money before our marriage and didn’t make any the entire marriage, and didn’t let me in on anything. I’d say how will I pay for something of you die or have an accident?)…he was not the kind of guy that used to like to find solutions—preferred to reiterate the problems. That really brought me down.

    So he ignored me (prior to emailing me for a divorce) for about 14 months. Every time I asked a question he would say “what?” with an annoyed face; he stopped saying my name; he would leave for the gym at 8:00am and come back around 1:30 (chewing gum…he used to hate gum). I was depressed, lonely, angry. One of the worst things was, he would shame me for being angry. It worked– he made me feel bad about myself. I broke my foot during that year and got no empathy, love, support or help around the house. My dad had open heart surgery and not only did he not wish him luck, but never even visited him in the hospital.

    He checked out.

    So yeah, I saw something coming but I was still hurt and in shock. I don’t really believe in divorce, I prefer to fix things.

    After he emailed me the divorce on our son’s graduation day, he stayed in our house for four more months while his new house was being vacated. The whole time he continued to go to the gym everyday while I busted my ass with the emotions of two kids (boys 12 and 14), cooking, cleaning. All on auto-pilot, severely depressed and of course shedding weight and in shock (the ptsd was very real and the hardest part) I suspected there was someone else but wasn’t sure. No way would my husband cheat on me!

    After he left, he started “dating” as he would say…surprise, surprise, that very same woman. We are SEPARATED he would say, we can date who ever we want.

    To this day he denies there was ever an affair. I gave up caring about hearing the truth a few months after. It takes a confused, cruel soul to be that way. In a way I feel sorry for him. He’s really lying to himself.

    Sorry for being lengthy! I guess my comment was healing for me…

    Mine wants equal custody, so he didn’t leave his kids, but they are pissed as hell that he cheated (they saw text messages and other stuff and are even more hurt that he won’t admit it. Coward.

    • Mjo–first, I’m sorry you lived through such a lengthy and brutal de-value stage. He sucks.

      Secondly–he wants equal custody to (a) avoid or reduce child support; (b) look like the “good dad” despite all indications to the contrary. Sadly, courts tend toward 50/50 custody and are not that sensitive to quality of parenting in determining custody unless one parent exhibits extreme pathology. Thus, you may not be able to avoid 50/50 custody, but document, document, document every time he misses an appointment, or doesn’t help the kids with their homework, or cancels visitation. You may be able to get more than 50/50 custody down the line.

      Children above11 may also have some say in whether they want to see a parent or not; check with your lawyer about whether it is worth involving a Guardiam ad Litem (GAL). Good luck & hugs to you!

      • I don’t have a problem with shared custody–I think the kids have a right to their father and vice versa.

        • Kids have a right to shared custody when both parents are responsible. When they are not, they don’t. I know some cheaters manage to be responsible, but an awful lot of them cannot be bothered Parenting is hard work and requires putting the needs of others above yourself in a variety of tedious ways. The rewards of parenting are often abstract and unpredictable. Cheaters like praise, being the center of attention, and having their own way. Every kid is different, but a heck of a lot of them go through one (or more) stages when they are not interested in giving big hugs and saying, “Mommy/Daddy I love you!” They don’t play to the parental ego very willingly. They whine, procrastinate, make snarky remarks, and experiment with different ways to annoy you, and then grow out of it. To deserve custody, a person has to have the persistence to love and support a child even when the child is not charming. So, kudos to the parents who pull their shit together enough to be a good parent even if they were a lousy spouse, but be prepared in case your spouse turns out not to be anymore committed to the kids than he or she was to the marriage.

  • Crazy lady

    Even if he somehow had a ‘truth seizure’ and confessed something it will not take you any further.

    Mine confessed to three affairs, dating websites and daily porn habits. And I still feel there is much more that I don’t know and sometimes I think about digging again just to scratch that itch. But it really is pointless. You know enough to make the right decisions and to design your own cheater free (almost, tough with kids) life.

    When you accept that you have all that you need even though it may be much less than you want, you can start to move upwards into a clean life rather than digging down into their shitty deeds.

    Give yourself a break, untie from that need and go be as happy as can be. ❤

    • Capricorn your right – it’s a pointless exercise. Lately I asked him to a lie detector test. He agreed. Then I thought – what’s the point if it’s says he telling the truth I will think he was an expert liar and if it comes up he’s lying then here comes more gas lighting and heartache.
      Shit. Never. Ends.

      • marriagepolice
        You are absolutely right. Once that trust has gone you start to question everything they have ever said. The more you look the more there is to distrust. Honestly if mine told me the sky was blue on a sunny day I would feel uncomfortable just taking my own eyes as evidence. I would feel that he was trying to trick me or mess with my head in some way.
        I think my brain just figured he is is all around dangerous now so I have to keep my wits about me which means keeping away. I cannot trust him not to try to ‘get’ me whether by actions or words.
        It is supremely anxiety inducing to be with someone who you know is hurting you but does it in such terrible ways. Sometimes they suck really doesn’t seem strong enough.

      • I did have mine complete a lie detector test. I didn’t stop him. Yes, the lie detector covered the lies he had told in the past. However, lying became such a habit with him it is his default. He will confess once I question him with the ‘right’ questions, but I realize he is simply a compulsive liar at this point. It won’t even be about big stuff. If you ask what color the sky is he will say green. Then, five minutes later he will say, I am sorry I said the sky was green. I shouldn’t have lied to you, the sky is blue. I will sit there in awe. He really can’t help but lie, never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would meet, let alone marry, someone who cannot tell the truth at the first question!

        I like that we did the lie detector test, because it was the first clue to just how far back his lies went. They went all the way to when we started dating. I took him passing the lie detector (he failed the first one) as some sort of mindfuck sign of his honesty. Then it hit me – this man has been lying since we met! I knew a couple of lies, just had no idea he had told so many for so long.

        Now, I am just floored.

        • He has been lying his whole life. It’s who they are. My X remembers lying quite easily to his kindergarten teacher. Frightening.

        • See? I thought these skilled lies could fake out a lie detector test. Can they? He offered to have a test, but I said no. I know that lie detector tests are not admissible in court. (Or am I wrong?)

        • This is my asshat. No physiological “tell” whatsoever. He happily agreed to a lie detector test — he was that confident in his ability to lie (plus he hoped it would shut me up). When I caught him in a lie on the pretest questionnaire, I decided to forego the lie detector and save the money toward getting my girls and I away from him. I never realized a human was capable of lying about so much, so often, and without any sense of guilt whatsoever. It was quite eye opening.

        • Mine admitted he was proud at his ability listen to his parents lecture him and then go do what he was going to do. He also admitted to telling his Mom what she wanted to hear to avoid being yelled at, shamed and/or disciplined. Hiding his true self became natural.

          Behavior development starts at a young age and the lies and compartmentalizing get bigger and more hidden. It becomes their character.

          You can’t fix them. I tried for almost 36 years. I can only fix and control myself.

  • Dear Crazy Lady,

    Chump Lady’s odometer stopped ticking on my journey the day I understood that taking control of my life DOES NOT and MUST NOT include controlling my cheater. That in order to survive I MUST build a new, totally cheater-free life for myself. On this blog you will learn it is 100% possible and worth it.

    Are you expecting the only alternative on par with your worth, for cheater to sincerely and effectively repent? Well, this is never going to happen. How many times do meteorites fall through people’s roofs? Or a person in a wheel chair gets up and walks up some stairs? There is no cure for a bad character and we married them.

    At our conciliation hearing at court my cheater started off by telling the mediator how I did not get along with his family and my family because I was “difficult”. An “impression management” system to call me “crazy”.

    Yeah, you bet, I am “difficult”: as Chump Lady says, it’s not their shit, it’s our reaction to their shit. For example, my brother tried to get my dad declared mentally unfit to use his insurance for a business and I stepped in. I bought a painting from cheater’s eternally broke brother to help him and he fooled me and charged me 5 times its worth (I am crazy).

    Still IN FRONT OF THE COURT MEDIATOR, my cheater then actually said that I could trust him and that he was not a cheater! He made a scene when I asked “then who is OW (name), is she some cyber-creature?”. Everyone sniggered. But he was absolutely convinced people saw a halo shining over his head. Lost cause, Crazy, lost cause. Chose your battles to win the war.

    It looks like your cheater and my cheater are clones. The knowledge that we chose a bad character is VERY painful, especially if we have children with one.

    But expecting an admission from him to feel better is like keeping rotten food in the fridge so it doesn’t waste. Forget him, get the best settlement possible and teach your boys about respect and consequences.

    This crazy wishes you good luck.

  • “he stopped saying my name”–wow, Mjo. I noticed it, and it hurt, but how do you even bring up something like that without sounding “crazy”?

      • Mine never, in all the years married ever called me by my name unless he was super pissed at me. Always called me “kid” as I’m a whopping 4 years younger than him (and, to devalue me, I fear).

  • Crazy Lady,

    Your healing and moving on is not going to come from him admitting or apologizing for anything. He’s not sorry about what he did to you and your children. He’s sorry that he got caught . Period. Now that things are getting heated over your financials, he probably realizes that the consequences of his actions are going to hit him in his pocket book and that’s what concerns him, not the damage he did to his family. He has no remorse for anything.

    Of course he’s going to make you look like a crazy, untrusting, delusional, person. He’s going to play the victim to his friends and family and blame you. You were a lousy housewife; you didn’t make enough money in your full-time job outside of the home, even though your job allowed the extra money to buy him Harleys & boats and more than likely the funds to spend on his OW; you spent too much time on your children, you know taxiing them back & forth for school & sporting events and helping them with their homework, doctor’s appointments, etc. all while he’s out either drinking with his friends or fucking his whore; you didn’t give him enough sex because at the end of the day, after taking care of your full-time job, the kids, & the household, you were exhausted and ready for rest (plus, your gut is telling you that he’s sleeping with someone else & you really don’t feel like having sex with him anyways). According to him, he was just unhappy & it’s all going to be your fault, or here’s a real winner explanation that my X is telling mutual friends, “Well, we just grew apart, things just didn’t work out.” Don’t let him get away with that bullshit. No, things just “didn’t work out” for no reason. He was fucking another woman and lying about it to cover it up. There is NOTHING you did or didn’t do that shifts the blame on you for his choices and actions. This is all on him.

    As far as his mother…FUCK HER. You don’t owe her anything. In fact, go no contact with her. Take her # out of your phone, block her on social media anything you have to do to be rid of her because she is not in your corner. I was close to XMIL prior to this last episode of my X’s cheating. In fact, the last time my X had an affair, she begged me to move my kids out to Arizona where she was living at the time so that I could have help raising them. Complete different story this time. I took all the Facebook digs & nasty comments that I could take before I gave her the big “FUCK YOU” and deleted her out of my life. I’m 100% better for it.

    You WILL get through this. It’s not going to be today or tomorrow, but one day at a time the healing will come. It will come because you are strong & mighty. Never doubt that!

    • My MIL hated me. To the point of taking us (then a family of five) in, then trying to throw me out so she could “have Susannah’s kids.” She later called the cops on me when I showed up to drop the kids off. She was supposed to babysit. This was years ago this happened. Several months ago, my ex wanted my daughter to call his mom on my daughter’s cell phone. Which I pay for. I threw a fit and made her delete MIL’s phone number. Up until now, I wondered if I’d overreacted. Now I’m feeling better about it.

  • Sooooooooo true. Some rarely admit. Mine never did and still doesn’t. Despite my discovering hotel bills, dinner receipts, jewelry purchases, trips etc. Even some of his own friends (also known cheaters) told me “Hey Pixy if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like duck? Its a duck!” THAT was from 2 of his so called friends. But he swears to this day he did all those things to help a “friend” cheat! yeah right. I struggled for years trying to get proof because I didn’t want to believe my own eyes. Even called a psychic!! In the end, you know what you know in your heart. Just wish it hadn’t taken me so long to get to that point. But better late than never.

    • Yes — even with solid evidence, they will continue to lie and gaslight. Scratch marks on his back, lipstick on his collar and my asshat managed to lie and gaslight so well that our MC fell for it and began counseling me about my insecurities and jealousy. (I’m still pissed about that.)

      Asshat never confessed to anything — and there was over two decades’ worth of “things.” If I had him backed into a corner with irrefutable evidence, he still downplayed and lied to make it look like it “wasn’t as bad” as the evidence showed.

      Sadly, it’s partly why I stayed stuck for so long. It never dawned on me that I could be married to a pathological liar.

      • JesssMom — if I get a chance, I am going to try to figure out a way to stop the abuse that we chumps get from the marriage therapists. Yes. But first let me finalize the divorce.

        • Sending good vibes your way for finalizing the divorce.

          On figuring out a way to stop the abuse chumps receive from MCs — please keep us updated. That is something I would love to help with!

  • Eliza Hamilton had incontrovertible proof of her Husband’s cheating and it didn’t hurt any less. She stayed for that Colonial Unicorn.

    But one thing you can do is remove yourself from the narrative because you can’t control crazy. Crazy doesn’t even believe in math. For example;

    Cold Slab O’Meat and Jake From State Farm are still trying to wring dignity from the timeline of their adultery pregnancy. They tell anyone who will listen, including their NOO LUVS, that the baby was conceived the exact day he packed his lonely UHaul and moved his big ass out. They speak elegantly how they So considered the feelings of the family they ripped to shreds by ‘not acting on their feelings until then’.

    Small detail? The baby was overdue and not premature. Due dates are not an exact science but based on ultrasounds and actual dates of cycle reported by the pregnant woman.

    The due date is 21-28 days off from the supposed date of conception. They tell EVERYONE the dates and rely that most people don’t give a damn enough to question the narrative.

    I questioned it. He lied. That’s my narrative. He is a liar and an adulterer. An honest person who is NOTFUCKING his coworker but has feelings for coworker comes to his ISFUCKING wife and tells her it’s over. He doesn’t NOTFUCK about on his phone constantly for a month and a half, treat her and his stepdaughter like they are garbage and invisible, and get caught with a phone bill in his wife’s name that he thought he had secured by changing the password.

    If the narrative is not credible, it’s not my narrative and I don’t have to live in it. If it makes you feel better, my daughter’s dad eventually gave up his protestations of innocence. Since his life has continued to follow the same reckless course, with several different women, he looks more and more like the dysfunctional constant instead of the pitiful variable.

    • It was a super baby? SOOOOOOO SPECIAL it needed an extra 3-4 weeks to cook in that Satanic uterus of a bitch from Hell? Since it’s been in there for an extra month I’m assuming it will be smarter and cuter than any baby ever born. Just like the special sparkle snowflake parents. ?

      • She has a Super Sluterus! Baby born “five days after due date” 8 months and 19 days after D Day and barely 8 months after GTF Outta My House Day? Tremendous!

        Clearly her Uterus is the gestational version of those Newfangled Instant Pots you hear about. Can’t wait to be dumped while pregnant with your married Coworker’s child? Think he doesn’t have yet another Chump lined up?

        Turbo Charge Your Womb with Baby Growing Brawndo! It’s NEW! It’s NEONATAL! IT’S THE EXTRA STRENGTH SLUUUUUTERUS!

        • *Disclaimer- Pregnancy is calculated as 40 weeks from last period or 259-266 days from conception. Baby should have had a due date 2-3 week later than she did.

          • AAAAAAND we’re all supposed to believe that she conceived on the first hurrah. During the first tender expression of their scared true 3 months forever LUV.

            Sure, Jan. Sure!

          • It feels good to be far enough out to joke about it. There will always be a little part of me miffed at being assumed to be so stupid, but it passes quickly.

  • Having to publically admit to actions that others in the family/community find unacceptable is a very powerful emotional act, and if it causes real pain and guilt, it may serve some purpose. However, if you are dealing with someone who changes his/her “truth” at a moment’s notice, and if all he/she experiences is momentary embarrassment because he/she has been exposed, you really have not accomplished anything. These folks will move on to a new audience if they are discredited with their current audience. They know that it is human nature to construct a reality that humans are comfortable with. The truth is a noble concept, but truth is rarely achieved in human interactions. Courts may seek justice — but remember the lady holding the scales is always blindfolded. Laws are not always created to protect the weak, or to punish the guilty. Laws are sometimes created to protect the guilty from any consequences they might suffer when they abuse the innocents of the world.

    When I joined the marriage police, I had little hope that any of the information I found would prove useful in a court of law. For the most part, courts do not seem concerned with marital “crimes” — they seem concerned with dividing property in some socially acceptable way. The evidence I sought was to convince MYSELF that I had been conned, and there was nothing redeemable about the man I had invested so much of my time and love and effort in. The money that I lost was painful — but what I lost emotionally was nearly unbearable. Circumstantial evidence was all I really needed. Any man who spent the time that man spent on dating sites and emailing other women was guilty of marital deceit. In the end the overwhelming deluge of lies was more damning that the actual instances of sex with others. The lies always outnumbered and preceded the sex, and the lies, by themselves, were enough. If his friends and family don’t want to know the details of the truth (and I can assure you they don’t) then they will never examine any of your evidence. They simply don’t care about your pain, or his duplicity.
    If you have been accused of something you did not do, then you know the frustration of trying to prove your innocence when the accuser has already deemed you guilty. They do not need evidence to accuse. People who want to believe them and who may have some other problem with you will gladly accept the word of the accuser. They construct the reality they want to believe in. So any time you spend trying to convince others of someone they want to believe in’s guilt, or your innocence if they want to believe you guilty, is just a colossal waste of your time. It is the way of this world.

    Someone who has never been cheated must live in a bubble — I don’t know how they have been so lucky. I certainly have been cheated, and I know what that feels like. Every chump in Chump Nation knows what that feels like. You can come here for the acceptance and comfort you will never find in the world of lawyers and courts. It may not be monetarily satisfying, but it is emotionally priceless.

    • Why those smear campaigns by cheaters work so well:

      “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” -Mark Twain

  • I got the same shit. From cheater ex, and his Mommy. It’s much easier for his mother to call you delusional and crazy than to admit her precious little snookums is the one who is delusional and crazy, plus a liar, cheater, etc. I think that is pretty common, actually. The parents created a lot of these monsters in their own image.

    He’s not admitting to protect himself. Mine didn’t admit either so I did it for him. If he was in the same state as the cowhort, ie physically around, they were fucking. Mine didn’t admit it but when you are stopping by a single whore’s apartment in secret after work that’s admission enough for me. Circumstantial evidence is fine in court and it’s fine for me too. These losers know you aren’t going to catch them banging these whores 90% of the time, so that’s just ridiculous as a standard anyway.

  • My ex never admitted to me anything more than “inappropriate texts” and “kissing him” the night before I told her that we were getting divorced.

    But, as CL points out, my wife went out of her way to make me feel insecure: she attacked me for being suspicious, she said I had trust issues, she took her phone off our joint plan so I couldn’t see her text number history, etc. Those were not the actions of someone who loved me and wanted an honest partnership, or cared about my emotional well being.

    The entire time, I thought it was “only” an emotional affair, and my wife let me believe that.

    Six months after our divorce was final, in an effort to legitimize her relationship with her AP, my ex wife finally admitted to physically cheating on me for the entirety of the time I suspected something.

    But she didn’t admit this to me, nor to her OM’s wife…but to her friends and family. It was impression management: she’d “learned from her mistakes,” had “found true love,” etc. This allowed her to tee up moving in with him, and the getting pregnant with his baby…while he’s still legally married.

    Cheaters only confess when it’s in their self interest to do so. Not from a desire to deal with their shitty character and reform. But from a desire to be seen in the best possible light given the circumstances. The world is theirs to manipulate!!!

  • It’s sure to be a Tuesday when you stop caring about what he thinks.

    My marriage implosion was very public and dragged out over a number of years.

    It boggles my mind to know how many people were aware of the affair, yet no one would admit it to my face. Their followers were many.

    To this day he will not admit to the affair and I really do not care. I know my truth and that is the most important thing.

    Once I started to go NC I could see things more clearly. I also realized I was much happier not trying to spackle over all the BS my X and Cocktwaddle were telling everyone.

    Even if they never fucked ( yeah – right ) I would have still ended the marriage. There was nothing left to save.

  • These cheaters are ridiculous! They will NEVER admit anything if they feel they can worm thier way out of it. In deposition my cheater invoked his right not to incriminate himself when asked specific questions about his relationship with Schmoopie! It was downright laughable. And it only solidified his guilt, but Cheater thought he was the smartest guy in the room! Who the Hell does that in a divorce deposition? Did he really think the court would believe she was “just a friend” from Facebook??? It wouldn’t matter if you questioned him in front of God himself if he felt he could lie and avoid consequences. You obviously can no longer trust this POS or anything that comes out of that mouth of his. Let him go and live a better life without all the BS. Not worth your time!

    • @ Roberta,

      Who does that in a divorce deposition? Apparently, more people than you realize because my EX certainly did. When asked to identify his and Madame Wildebeest’s (my sincere apologies to innocent Wildebeest everywhere) relationship, he stated that they were “friends.” My attorney had to ask him where he was living, who was paying the rent, was his name on the lease/mortgage, the places he had traveled and with whom and on and on to finally depict the actual nature of their relationship. Even though there were bank statements showing how many times he traveled to meet with her, what he spent, on what it was spent, he denied their relationship as being more than “friends.” When she asked him how many more women with whom he had affairs, he took the Fifth. There were several other questions on which he took the Fifth regarding how many women, how much money he spent, etc. He, too, thought he was the smartest person in the room. Each time he took the Fifth, my attorney laughed. A cheater is a liar and the truth ain’t in ’em.

      • Tell me please: can their credit cards and bank statements be depositioned? Can Madame Wildebeest be depositioned?

        • @QueenMother,

          I’m divorced and rid of Mr. Lying Liar who Can’t Stop Lying. He is currently married to Minister Wildebeest and almost completely under her thumb because she wields the purse strings. My attorney considered deposing her but because I live in a no-fault state, but decided instead simply to put her on the trial witness list as leverage. Ex kept delaying everything and we got copies of all of his financials as a matter of discovery. He lied through the entire deposition – and they were demonstrable lies. We had taken his deposition in case things had gone to trial because we knew he would lie at trial and wanted the deposition to impeach his testimony if need be. Even in a no fault state proving someone is lying can sometimes increase your settlement because some Judges don’t look kindly on lying to undercut your spouse’s share. You just hope to get one of those judges.

  • Actually, I give people who leave on the strength of circumstantial evidence and gut instinct a whole lot of credit. When I was in that spot, I stayed, questioned my own sanity, allowed him to undermine me endlessly, and generally fruitlessly spackled the hell out of everything. I am glad for the moment when he was truly caught red handed and had no choice but to confess, because that moment set me free, but I admire the strength of people who get themselves out while the gaslighting is going full blast.

    In any case, even when we have them dead to rights, and even when they do cough up those forced confessions, the truths are only ever very partial and very temporary. My cheater “admits” to four affairs, one of which he claims was purely emotional, but I know that there were many, many more, particularly when every inappropriate interaction that he was at pains to hide is thrown into the mix. Meanwhile, he has been busy citing his deep unhappiness with me as entirely causal, the confessions, such as they are, have been minimized to “a number of mistakes were made,” and he actually calls himself a martyr, the victim, and a person who “only had four affairs,” quite as though that is within the acceptable range for a 28 year marriage. Only four! Gosh, how terribly silly of me to worry about anything that can be counted on one hand.

    Anyway, a tip of the hat to all who leave in the “knowing but not knowing” phase. That takes strength and says wonderful things about your personal boundaries. None of us will ever really know the full extent of our cheaters’ lies and diabolical machinations. Mine, for instance, will forever maintain that he never spoke a single word against me, which is of course complete bullshit. The loneliness of losing friends and extended family to their image management lies is often acute, but the one thing I have always known is that I will never enter that horror again. This is terrible, that was worse, and was growing more horrible by the nanosecond. I hear tell that things get better over time, so I am sticking with that. Hey, maybe it is best that the sickest of the sick details will never be revealed. I don’t need further wounds or to run the risk of disappearing in the full scope of the stunning facts. I know enough. We all do. And so here we are.

    • I agree so much with your first paragraph. I so badly wanted to believe that my cheater still loved me, despite his total lack of effort to work on our marriage after he said out of the blue that he was “unhappy”, his constant texting, his staying late at work, his coworkers telling me and the husband of his boss that they were spending a suspicious amount of time together, etc. Solid evidence was heartbreaking, but it was also liberating because it was REAL.

    • I agree Cashmere. The other thing I learned from my years on a partners of sex addicts support site is that even with a lie detector test, or a confession, chances are you’ve only heard part of the truth. For everything they confess, there’s virtually always scores of things still hidden. I saw that time and time again. When my ex admitted to having affairs with 8 to 10 strippers over a decade I automatically doubled that number in my head. Never tried to prove it and never asked him about it. It just wasn’t worth it. I already knew enough to know I needed to get out of the marriage.

      • I do that mental editing too, Beth. If he says he had two drinks, probably more like 4-6. If he says he gave her few gifts, I assume it was many. He “confesses” to the four affairs I strongly suspected, but there were of course scores more.

      • Yep. There was only one person who could tell me the full truth of the lies and cheating–and that was my ex, Mr. Dishonest.

        When it’s a liar that holds the truth, all you can do is just trust your gut, and detach any meaning from the sounds that fall out of their lying mouths. It’s just noise.

    • I so wish I had just thrown him out when I found the phone records of all their texts. would have given me 2.5 years of healing. I whole heartedly agree with cashmere.

  • Crazy Lady,

    You are not alone.

    TWO YEARS after Mr. Sparkles discarded me and our family for the OW, I came home from therapy needing “proof” that he was still the same lying, adultering, spineless fuckwit for HER that he was for ME.

    It took me less than TWO MINUTES to go to one of his favorite personal ad web sites and find him through a profile search. TWO MINUTES.

    Trust that your STBX sucks. Take whatever documents you have (and phone companies can produce “deleted” records for a court subpoena… same for a personal ad!)… and show the court. Courts love EVIDENCE… as and CL says in her book… even “bad” evidence is good in court.

    He sucks. You don’t. Keep it simple and you’ll get to meh.

  • The level of denial and deceit is off the chart here. He denied there was an affair, pretended it didn’t happen AFTER he confessed, and then said I didn’t understand what he meant, but in the spirit of my dad who was an attny, I showed him PROOF wtth all the emails he wrote to me outlining in detail how/where/when he FELL IN LOVE and how she was his soulmate, so it was tough for him to come up with an angle that could fit in with his disordered mind, but he DID. He said, “that was then, this is now. why do you keep bringing up the past” Past, as in 2 months ago? Then the story changed to how he needed to be alone to go on a solo journey to find his own identity because I was too controlling, too boring, too this too that, too FAITHFUL, too moral, too monogamous. Divorce almost final. I have no idea how 26 years flew by and I never even knew this person who could betray me, devalue and discard me so cruelly. Mindblowing that he could lie about anything and everything and then turn it back to make everything my fault.

  • “When you expect disordered people to live by the norms of rational, caring humankind — you’re going to be bitterly disappointed.” CL

    This is what I need to hammer into my brain. It also leaves you sort of half enraged under the surface all day when you crave that reciprocity. You want to shake them by the shoulders: Don’t you know what you have done???

    I want him to *understand* what he has done.. I want to have a stomp down drag out where he sees the light and weeps with sorrow.

    I need to let that foolish shit go! He understands very well…he does not give a red hot damn.

    I have little tidbits that float in that demonstrate he understands with exactness. His niece snapped a photo of me, smiling at something funny someone said. She told me she offered to send it to Scuzzy. She reported back (she is not quick enough to lie) that he said:

    “No, I don’t want to see it. She will never look at me that way again.” No sentimentality of having a photo of me. A memory of love. A memento of us.

    Only…that smile (kibbles) will never be directed my way again….not interested.

    • These people have an infinite capacity to reinvent history and spin a tale. The theme of that tale is that they are the hero, the long-suffering, the injured party. I’m no psychologist, just a student of human nature, but it is their coping mechanism. The are delusional and their lives are grounded in half and untruths. I really like what CL says, essentially stop looking through rose-colored glasses. See them for who they are, not who you thought they were or want them to be. Don’t look for these people to give you what you THINK you need. They won’t and you don’t need that validation from them. These are BAD people, who are fundamentally flawed, Always looking, never happy or satisfied with their lives. There always has to be something better, newer, more exciting….or so they think so. What a terrible way to live a life.

      Everyone who writes in this blog and has experienced the pain of being discarded by someone they loved deeply and unconditionally is a survivor. Let’s take back OUR lives and let them waller in false happiness. Our happiness and the lessons we’ve learned on this journey will take us to new levels. To the survivors….God Bless, Bravo….here is to tomorrow and the next day and the next!

  • Wanting a confession is just another dream from the disappointing land of “If Only”. It doesn’t make things better.

    A confession only solidifies a few of your suspicions. It then leads to more questions. You start to see even more questionable evidence and wonder if it’s related. It’s maddening.

    I once posted on here that I felt bad that my cheater never expressed remorse to the point of wanting to come back, which bothered me, even though I would NEVER take him back, knowing what I know now. There’s just a part of me that wants to feel vindicated and wants him to realize his mistake. Someone responded to me and said that it’s terribly confusing when it happens and that I really wouldn’t want that after all. So, I keep that in mind when I think of that particular “If Only”. And I trust that he sucks. (Because he really, really does.)

    What I love about this community is that we understand each other better than any of our family or friends do who aren’t chumps themselves. Cheaters are all the same, in different skin.

    Mine, too, changes his story as it’s convenient for him. His Facebook profile still shows that we’re married. Before we separated last year, he visited a therapist individually. He said he’d agree to couples therapy, but the therapist wanted to meet me first. In my individual session with her, I heard all the lies he told her about our relationship. “He told you that???” If he can’t even be honest with a therapist, what’s the point? (Not to mention, the therapist essentially convinced me to “pick me dance” to get my husband interested in me again, despite him having told her that he was having an affair. *gag*) I learned later that his goal in going to this therapist in the first place was to “get the courage” to leave me. How fucked up is that??

    Rethinking the lies makes me feel sick inside. I honestly don’t know how my ex lives with himself every day. It’s disgusting.

  • You think you are married to (or in my case, in a relationship with) a person like yourself. A person who takes vows and makes promises and means them, who follows through on commitment. A person who is hones and trustworthy. But what you have is a cheater; that, by definition, mean you have a liar.

    Crazy Lady, you have a lot of evidence to support that something was going on. But more important, you have a conviction that during the affair he treated you “horribly.” You don’t need to catch someone cheating to file for divorce and get away from an abuser. You just have to determine that your spouse’s behavior is hurtful and abusive. Finally, where’s the remorse? There is not a scintilla of evidence that your STBX is sorry about the emotional pain he is putting your through, even today. He has never stepped up and said he lied about his whereabouts, has he? And you know he did. You can prove that. He has never stepped up and said what he was hiding when he deleted messages, has he? He’s never explained the condition of his underwear, has he? Or apologized for behavior that looks so much like an affair that you filed for divorce?

    If my friend the Very Kind Man thought I was cheating, I would be mortified. I would first take a long look at my own behavior to see why he would think such a thing. Last week we got signals crossed and didn’t meet up as usual on Sundays. This is a super busy time of year for me, and he has had situations where he’s had to change plans, too. But he said something to me that made me see that the Sunday thing made him wonder if I was sort of downgrading the relationship. So I looked at both what I had been doing and at how I’ve felt about our arrangements in the past few months. And that is leading to some changes in how we interact and especially how well I stay in contact (my introvert side comes out big during Spring term). So no cheating but lots of thinking and some discussion about where we are and how to avoid hurting each other’s feelings. That’s how people who care about each other act.

    The most important thing you can do, Crazy Lady, is to realize that gaslighting and mindfuckery produce the craziness you feel. That is why it is key to be NO CONTACT. You have to stop caring about what he thinks, what he tells you, what reality he spins, and most certainly what his mother who raised him thinks. Stop talking to these people! Set up scheduling software or dedicated email to talk kids-only matters and otherwise–stop talking and don’t listen. He had a chance to talk and he chose to gaslight you. Give your brain and emotional body a chance to detox from that gaslighting. Get on with the divorce. In my case, Jackass denied and denied and denied. He attacked me viciously for “accusing him” of having an affair. But I know what I know. I know when I saw the 2-person FB he made why he had been distancing and discarding me, why nothing made sense. In that moment, I knew. Whether they ever had actual sex, I don’t know for sure but I’d guess not. But he had unplugged his attention and time from what we had and abused me in the process. That’s all I need to know. You have the full story: your STBX was emotionally abusive, and like many guilty people from the kid who ate all the cookies to a serial killer, he denied and lawyered up.

  • Thanks to chumplady and ya’ll I documented, recorded, and took pictures.
    So now when he tells lies about how I just decided after 26 years to run off with half of our savings……boo yah!

      • Thanks Lovedajackass! You lovely people inspired me to record him admitting to his affair!
        Probably not admissible in a court of law, but it proves to people that I’m not the bat-shit crazy one. I also kept a diary, took pictures of his cell phone texts with his Pookie, took pictures of the letters and receipts that I found, pictures of the damage he did to the house, and the bruises he gave me. If nothing else when people question me I can say, “Let’s see what the Worm has to say in his own words”.
        In other news, spellcheck now capitalizes the word worm on my iPhone!
        And, after only three months being worm free I have met an amazing man who treats me like a princess. This morning HE made me French toast with eggs and home fries………he just went to the store to get clams to make me linguine with clam sauce for dinner. I asked him if I could do the dishes while he was gone, he said, “You rest Baby, I’ll do them when I get back”.
        WTH have I been doing for 26 years?????!!!!!

  • Even from day one. When I desperately wanted reconciliation, I knew beyond what I can express here that there was ONE thing I was going to judge him by, if he ever tried to reconcile that is. That was honesty and ‘fessing up. The blinders were completely stripped off during discovery day there is no going back from that.

    I knew deep down that even if he wanted to return, he would never be able to give me what I wanted – TRUTH. He just became a second person. The last eight years of our marriage, even when I knew he was lying, he knew he was lying he would still look me in the eye, on stupid stuff, and continue to “shuck and jive” around the truth.

    Sad really. He was an honest person younger.

  • Mine was a passive aggressive liar too. If you ever reached your limit and boiled over, he would audio record your anger and play it for other people to hear. Who wants their worst moments broadcast to anyone who would listen to him? At the time I did not see this for what it was, abuse.
    Of course, he would never tell WHY people were yelling at him, he would play the victim card.

    One time he tried to get me to listen to our young teenage daughter yelling at him, because he recorded it. I was absolutely mortified, shamed him and told him to never do such a thing again. Apparently he continued. He also sent edited emails I wrote him to his family, again, never saying what his role in the argument was – he was the perpetual victim.

    • Magneto-That is a very dangerous person…who would drive you to rage and then record you to use against you, humiliate you, control you, and then do it to a child. That is a high level of planning for sick goals.

      Be so careful with that freak of nature.

    • Wow, your X takes manipulation and blameshifting to a new level. I agree with Butterbean–steer clear of him.

      This raises an interesting issue about relationships–what your X did to you and your daughter was UNFAIR. There is no way to reason with, mutually negotiate with, or have a healthy relationship with someone who does that.

      Considering my past relationships, two (my marriage and one other) were clearly with full-blown narcissists. But at least 2 other serious relationships were with people who became unfair. I railed against this; surely they could be made to see they weren’t being helpful or fair, right? No, they liked the power differential this entailed, and that I would work harder to make sure they were happy (despite my own unhappiness).

      Now this is a red flag to me–at the first sign of unfairness in a friendship, with a colleague, even with a real estate agent a few months ago, I bail. Not dealing with it ever again.

      • Anyone experiencing adult children who initially sided with you now listening to and being influenced by cheating spouse’s false narrative? If so, how are you handling it?

        My AS initially was protective of me and appalled at his Dad’s behavior and character. The more he has been gaslighted by narcpath and in laws supporting EH’s poor sausage story, the more passive aggressive he’s been.

        He knows what happened, saw the evidence and now is choosing neutrality and “doesn’t know what to believe.” He doesn’t want things to feel heavy anymore and just move on.

      • This is a really good point – I sometimes give in with business transactions because I just don’t want to waste energy looking for someone else to do business with, but I am sorry every time I do that. I keep getting better, but every once in a while, some salesperson says something unfair and I let it slide. Without fail, I end up unhappy with myself for not standing strong.

        Some people really are just dicks. It is important to remember that and to say “that doesn’t work for me” and be willing to walk away.

  • The message being, someone who knows they are being lied to can not look the other way for long. They build up inside you, or at least the resentment does and you wind up believing you are start raving mad.

    No normal person can carry the baggage of lies and spackle forever. It always bubbles up.

  • CrazyLady,

    We all get your desire to catch him in a lie. Some of the chumps above have posted how they were fortunate enough to actually do so. But the bottom line is that catching him isn’t really necessary, or the point. And even if you can catch him on one particular, he’ll change the lies to cover the rest of the stuff up.

    The real problem is that he’s doing stuff that he feels the need to lie about to you. I mean, if you had a real, honest, ‘open’ marriage, he could just come home and let you know that he had a nice screw with a co-worker, and you could tell him about the stuff you did with your trainer, or whatever. He wouldn’t make the effort to lie if he didn’t do something he knows he needs to lie about.

    He has showed you that he’s willing to lie to you, repeatedly, to get what he wants. That is not the basis for a sound marriage, it’s the basis for exploitation and abuse.

    Now, let’s look at the problem from the point of view that he was faithful and honest. Suppose you discovered some suspicious circumstances, and confronted him. Not only would he give you a reasonable explanation, he would ask you what he could do to allay your suspicions and fears, and he would try to stop doing things that would arouse your suspicions. Has any of that happened?

    You might get lucky and catch him in a lie, if you’re willing to stay around, and to spend a lot of mental time and effort and energy doing so. Is it worth the cost? I suspect not. You let him know your suspicions, and told him you wanted a divorce. So what if he puts a different spin on it? It’s just more lies. You quit the job of taking care of him because of what he did. Now spend your precious mental energy on yourself, your twin boys, and preparing for your new future with him as a peripheral figure.

    Hugs. Strength. Peace.
    aeronaut

  • The best thing I did for myself was remove the “burden of proof” from me and put on him. BT this I mean I didn’t have to prove he did something, he had to prove he didn’t.

    For example, I saw a text he sent her, begging to come for a “visit” after work. Under his system, I couldn’t prove he actually went on this visit and fucked this slunt. Well, you are right, I couldn’t. But he couldn’t prove he did not do it either, so case closed. I had reason to think he did, he could not disprove it, so in my court of law, he was guilty.

  • They never change! Never.! It is us chumps who try to believe that they will because we are honest people and cannot wrap our heads around all the nastiness. It is unbelievable to us.
    They will fuck with your mind until they actually drive you crazy if you let them. Never doubt yourself because if they see you falter just a tiny bit they will use it as your weak spot and pounce and pounce!
    Believe in yourself.\

    Key words:
    “Someone who cares would go to great pains to make you feel secure. They would be transparent. It would hurt them to hurt you.”

  • I also use the worst case scenario model , too. I assume that the worst thing he could have done did indeed happen.

    On a reconciliation site, one cheater claimed a two year emotional “affair” with a coworker, but claimed they never, ever “touched” each other. Ever. Not even once. Believe me, if you are in the same office, you touched. But his wife apparently believed it. I’m sure there was some conference room/coat closet touchy feely somewhere.

  • FWIW, I have experienced this with both XWs.
    First one: I saw her journal entries describing her love for her therapist; her desire to “stop having sex with strangers’; and her sister came to me and advised me to divorce her as it was obvious she was cheating. Plus the records I kept of her times out until the wee hours were astronomical.
    Yet, to this day, some 22 years post reading that shit, she maintains that she has “inappropriate relationships where “”” the chemistry became sexualized”” ( you cannot make this shit up. May love this type of new age gibberish).
    Second XW was confronted by her dad , who inquired, after she moved into a house that she and her PA had been setting up for months , unbeknownst to me. He inquired ” are you seeing JK ( her old HS boyfriend)?
    She looked him right in the eye and said of course not.
    Then he said ” then why do I see his car parked in your driveway every morning at 5 a.ma when I go to work?”
    She did not bat an eye. Was not even embarrassed; Just said ” well , yes, but the kids do not know.”

    I guess the lesson to me is that these folks will lie even in the face of irrefutable evidence and will not feel foolish or embarrassed despite being totally busted.
    Both my XWs know that I know the truth. They will go to their graves denying. I gave up, long ago, expecting anything more.

    • Yes, at some point, they figure out that, when cornered, if they deliver the truth brashly enough, they can still wriggle out, turn the tables, play the “you can’t handle the truth” bully. Now that I finally have this trait figured out, I can trace the bullying behavior (even not cornered) wayyyyyyyyyyy back, and understand it for the smokescreen it is and has always been.

    • “the chemistry became sexualized”? Oh gawd!!

      The way they talk, cheaters just can’t control themselves. *gag* Yet somehow, they do have control when it comes to covering their tracks. Funny how self-control works.

      Back before NC, mine would continually tell me, “I can’t help developing feelings for her, I’m only human”. To which, I would respond, “But I need you to be a DECENT human.”

    • “They will go to their graves denying.”

      Well stated. Asshat tried to commit suicide — his letters (two of them) blamed me for everything (even his unspecified bad behavior). No admissions of any kind, though. So, yes, he was quite literally going to go to his grave still lying and gaslighting the hell out of me.

      One of my more vivid memories from the end of wreckonciliation was when he complained that he just didn’t understand why “honesty is such a big deal” for me. That one statement told me so much.

  • Skankboy Idiot, denied, denied, denied. Finally, a text message was sent to me that was meant for Ida Whore, “good morning, baby.” He hadn’t called me that in years. He had just texted me “you left your computer at home.” I knew something was off with that text. SOOOOO, I texted back, “awwww, that just warmed my heart.” (Knowing full well that text was NOT for me.) He texted back, “oh, that was meant for my golf buddy.” “It was supposed to say buddy.” Idiot!!! “I texted back, ” ohhh, you warmed my heart and then took it away.” He texted back, “I still you, baby.” I saw red!!!!! Went home, went through his things, really found nothing concrete. The next morning, I asked him, are you having an affair…..wait for it…..wait for it….”No.” So I presented him with “evidence” that could have easily been denied. He confessed. Idiot…..he forgot I used to work in forensics! That is the day I packed his crap in designer Hefty Bags and tossed his butt to the curb. The moral of the story is: for me it didn’t matter at that point if he had an affair, it was the lies, devaluing, etc., that made me not to be in the same hemisphere with him! IDIOT!!! Did I mention IDIOT????

  • “If he were innocent? This is not how loving people behave. Someone who cares would go to great pains to make you feel secure. They would be transparent. It would hurt them to hurt you (aka: empathy). You had none of that.”

    THIS, times a million!

  • Crazy Lady,
    You’re not crazy, but he wants you to think you are. To doubt yourself, so he can control the narrative. Expect him to get other people to pressure you to back down, too. Not just his mom.

    Innocent people don’t act like this, though. You know it, even if he won’t admit it.

  • Very few people on this site have found their cheater actually fucking someone else, or even a video of such acts. It’s outrageous the lies cheaters will tell even if you’re so “lucky” to get incontrovertible proof! Personally my cheater would only admit to what I caught him doing in terms of texting and photos, but even then he tried to spin what I saw. I know in my bones that he did more, and that’s good enough for me. Even if he hadn’t, being a known liar and very secretive is not something I can work with in a partner. My conclusion Not-So-Crazy Lady is it’s better to be hated by assholes for living the truth than loved for living in lies. One day you won’t even care, but I understand how you feel. Keep coming on here, tell us about it, we believe you. Hugs!

  • A’right. Ya got that straight, right? Not.Gonna.Happen. Evah. Forget that kind of “why can’t he admit he’s a POS?” And look at it another way-which got me through decades of insanity: Ask yourself, “Why NOW?”

    You state you had the Magical Mojo of “Meh” in sight and theennnn…(cue spooky music) it vaporized in a cloud of (gasp!) FINANCIALS. And a shit ton of horrid crash-backs to all the BS and general douchebagginess (damn, spell check hates that word) came flooding back-all related to the same theme of his Perfidity and your Being Stumped and Chumped. It hurts to admit we fell for such a moral moron, our judgement kinda sucked etc. but none of that ultimately matters, OK? This is truly not about you, it’s about him. And he’s choreographing a show for you and everyone else who cares to make popcorn and take a seat, so please pay attention: “Why Now?” And your answer is clear: “MY biggest problem to moving on is him never admitting he cheated.” Note we are now at the KaChing! part of parting? Hmm.

    There is a direct correlation between “Financials” and “No Admission.” Aside from you, who really, really “needs” this somehow to “move on,” you can be damn sure he’s well aware of that and he’s playing you and your “need” for all it’s worth. As long as he can direct your attention over “Here! Step Right Up, Chump!” you’re in a highly charged emotional state. Frankly, you KNOW what happened so this “Struggle for Truth(tm)” is a fantastic Diversion and Distraction Technique for him to employ. The timing is perfect to pull a Secondary Shit Show guaranteed to get your attention-so the Financials, which are suppose to be factual numbers-will not receive the dispassionate, exacting review they require by you. Of course your Attorney and your Forensic Numbers Pathologist will examine these documents, but in the end you gotta approve STBX’s numbers. Dats right, how dare you be “allowed” to approve or disapprove?

    However, he knows how to turn you into a Combustable Crazy Lady so he’s gift wrapped the “Financials” in a Lava Flow of Bull Shit: Betcha he lied on the Financials, huh? Wow! What a Surprise! A Lying Liar Who Lied! And in Strategically doing so, he’s leveraged your “need” and created an avalanche of Crash Backs because it’s the first time you’ve ever seen his lies in something remotely tangible-those burnt-beyond-recognition cooked numbers. And you are now REacting instead of Acting. It isn’t about the numbers, even though it is but it’s really about something much bigger, much more important: What those numbers mean to you, what they represent to you. Crash Backs, indeed.

    As long as you believe your Meh-ville will only arrive on an Admission of STBX having wronged you, you have handed him carte blanche to your well being into the indefinite future. That’s some pitiful, “I am powerless” capitulation to most fundamentally, yourself. As long as you see red where you need to be seeing numbers, you’re not paying attention-remember, money/resources are Power in a relationshit. His Straight Outa Con-dumb numbers are the closest you’re ever gonna get to a manifest admission, “I am a Lying POS. I have the integrity of a Serial Killer on Steroids.” And since he knows how to rock your world right down to pulverized dust, he knows his lies in the Financials are just the extra “Umph” necessary to sling you back into high orbit-around HIM. Gotcha. You will do the “Fuck YOU Back!” dance and in spending an inordinate amount of time, resources and energy trying to convince anyone of anything, you’re not paying attention to the facts. Yeah, I did this dance and you never, ever wanna do this publically, OK? It might win you a Crazy Person label that’s well, not entirely unwarranted when your pre and post DD sleuthing activities hit Gold (or Rock Bottom.) Please note no one is at their best at those times and your STBEx knows just how to take you “there.” Privately, have at it. Publically? To others? NO! Nevah! Showing up in the Police Reports, substituting your mug shot for your passport picture or arguing with those large guys waving some admission papers at you like a matador is not a good response, warranted though it may be. In loosing your emotional shit, you once again hand him the exact coordinates to launch a massively destructive heat seeking missile right down on your position which will take you to the sub-basement parking garage of your burning anger of a million suns. And you will react; you’re gonna loose your concentration and make some blunders that actually will, in fact impact your life into the indefinite future. Financials <THAT'S what ya need to be paying attention to right now, 'K? Nothing else matters. Financials require your complete, exacting dispassionate dissection.

    Of course, his numbers are so cooked, you could mistake them for a bag of charcoal. Now all's you gotta add is a combustion source (that'd be you) and financial self-emoliation will ensue. He's betting on it. You gonna hand this to him? By acknowledging he Gotcha again? You think other people IRL are gonna give a shit-and why would it even matter to you what "everyone thinks?

    You are not an "everyone." You are a SOMEONE. A someone who needs to remind him dispassionately and factually of WHY you're leaving his lying ass and the only one that has to be "convinced" of anything is da judge. You most certainly do possess inner Mighty. Used correctly, Mighty is tactical. Mighty is practical. Mighty is a Marathon, not a Sprint. Mighty Makes Righty. Mighty doesn't roll over in a heap at proffered financial fuckery with the financial vapors. Mighty hyper-focuses on those numbers and the manifest accounting of his Character on a Spreadsheet that silently screams, "I Have The Character of a Conscienceless Cheater." Those bogus numbers aren't just numbers: They represent every lie, every act of discounting and discarding you, every horrible word he's used to invalidate or characterize you-except the right one: Integrity. That's why you're walking away. There is no "common ground" between a human being who acts with conscience and one who does not. Please keep your eyes on the horizon: "Meh" as you experienced shows up at the damnedest times. Let your Meh Iceberg tank his Titanic attempt at financial fuckery and emotional cupidity.

    We will finish with the Official Chump Cheer, all together now: "And trust that s/he sucks."

    • That’s a great point, that “no admission” of guilt is directly linked to “financials.”

    • Tundra Woman, your post had me in stitches. I’m right in the middle of discussing finanaces in divorce mediation and I think I shall read this post every. single. day. until it finally becomes my default state. Thanks for the laughs with the solid advice!

  • Favorite nuggets friends and family game to me that helped me get through the rough patches……

    He’s a boy, an adolescent

    There are 2 sides to every, story…right and wrong

    He is her problem now

    His family are plastic people, enablers

    His father should take him behind the woodshed and tell him to be a man and live up to his responsibilities

  • My favorite from my young adult daughter to him….

    You are going to die alone, a lonely old, fat, bald man. No one will want you then. This one is going to take you for all that you have!

  • It is a futile pursuit to get cheaters to admit anything (why should they?) and what’s more, you will NEVER get the truth about WHY, because they themselves would have a hard time explaining it. They are simply entitled attention whores who can’t control their impulses. Even if they realise that much, there is no mileage in admitting anything.

    Think of this joker as your enemy now. He is trying to squeeze as much $$ as possible out of you and the twins now. That truly is all it’s about. Go for his jugular in court and don’t accept compromises.

    Oh, and forget any future friendship with the inlaws. Blood thicker than water.

  • I suspect that even if you got an admission of cheating this month, then next month you’d hear him say, “I never said any such thing,” “I was teasing you,” or “I only cheated after I learned about your affair.”

    Unrepentant liars do not stop lying. They do sometimes alternate between lies and experiment with different lies.

    He has nothing to gain by shifting to honesty, so he won’t. He has lots to gain by keeping his family on his side and keeping you off-balance.

    Please don’t let your plans to move forward stall while you wait this nitwit to grow a conscience.

    Work on No Contact; work on demanding an appropriate financial settlement; work on being a sane parent to your kids.

    And you might want to develop a few lines to respond to queries about why you are divorcing or what you’ll tell the kids. The trick is to sound confident (and you should be) rather than to explain to people that you never actually caught him. Instead of saying, “he won’t admit he cheated,” you can say, “he refused to tell me her name.” To the kids you say, “We broke up because your dad got a secret girlfriend.” And if they come back with, “Dad says he didn’t.” You’ve already set up the idea that she’s a secret. So, you can say, “I know he says that. He doesn’t like it that I found out.” And then you are done. No one needs the list of 27 damning hints he left you. He’s going to lie whether you share them or not. So don’t. Just tell it like it is–he cheated.

    Finally, take the long view. His tendency to cheat will probably be apparent to everyone 10 years from now (maybe in 2). You don’t need to prove anything. All you need is patience, and he’ll do the damage himself.

  • Crazy Lady,

    “You’re failing to look at this through the lens of the disordered — “truth” is situational. Whatever story helps him get what he wants is the “truth.” People might look upon him differently if they knew the facts, so he changes his “truth” to match his agenda.” – – CL

    This is the little nugget you need to internalize. There is no “truth” in cheater world. There is only a narrative and that narrative changes depending on what cheater need or desire is requesting satisfaction in the moment. It’s like a play that is constantly being re-written and re-staged depending on the audience. To wit: my children knew my husband was cheating – he did not try to really hide it and they were all legal adults, even though two were still in college at the time. He even sent an inappropriate text to the youngest intended for the OW/OWife in error. Now, more than a year after the divorce and year after they got married and him having less and less to almost zero contact with them because they refuse to be around her and she apparently balks at him seeing them without her, he is spinning the tale that she wasn’t “really” a “homewrecker;” that he “had decided in his head” that the marriage was over before they got together, even though we were still married and living together, had just refinanced our then home, right before he began “talking” to her. He wants the children to believe they are being unfair and of course, it probably looks strange to her congregation (she’s a minister) that his children did not attend his wedding nor have they shown up for a holiday or for any reason. He freely reconstructs the narrative like everyone is living the Men in Black movie and he keeps wiping everyone’s memories in order to construct the new narrative.

    As far as your STBX’s mother is concerned, she has an investment in believing in her son because – son. Also, you are not privy to everything he has told his mother (or anyone else) and you will drive yourself crazy worrying about it. Everyone knows about the “smear” campaign, which probably began while you were cleaning house and doing laundry and tending children. All I can tell you is to live your life in accordance with your values and your integrity, and those who want to get it will, and those who don’t are not people with whom you want or need to associate anyhow.

    You only THINK you need a liar to verify the truth you already know. Logically, no one needs a liar to verify anything. That’s pain and emotional investment thinking for you. As long as you believe you need his verification of what you have already surmised through deductive reasoning, you are continuing to give him leverage over you. Stop that. You need that energy to get your best settlement in the divorce. And also heed all the advice above about going No Contact. You won’t be able to think clearly until you stop allowing him to mindfuck you.

    It’s elementary Watson – he’s a cheater and a liar and the truth ain’t in him. Divorce him and start to live your life, cheater free. It is painful and difficult right, but I can tell you, Cheater Free is a Fine Way to Be.

    • @chumpprincess Thanks for this. I’m stuck wanting D-bag to stop lying about me and what happened. I have plenty of proof of his affair but want him to admit he screwed up and stop saying he wasn’t happy and our marriage sucked. Bullshit! Even if I was the worst wife ever there’s no excuse for what he did. I need to get past needing to hear that from him and from his flying monkeys. Why does this bug me so much?!

      • Newbie — because lies are destructive, to marriages, to health, to community. There can be no progress where there are lies.

      • Because you have a strong justice orientation. Sadly, it will never be satisfied by a cheater. They always skirt the rules, evade responsibility, and attack the victim. Truth and justice do not enter the cheater dimension.

      • @Newbie,

        They are rationalizing and justifying their treatment of someone who loved, cared about and trusted them. How else can they do it unless they re-write history? My Ex re-wrote the entire history and story of our marriage. He told me he shouldn’t have married me and all kinds of horrible things, some now he would deny. I always called it “re-remembering” because he did it the entire relationship.

        The most important thing I ever read about disordered people and one of the most difficult to really internalize is that this isn’t personal. It isn’t about us or the other person. It is about them and how they function, how they don’t bond and everyone and everything is being used for some purpose for them and them only. A pencil, a table, a wife, a child, it is all the same. We take it personally because we simply don’t function that way and it is personal for us. But really, it isn’t personal. They don’t care about us personally – we were of use. Just like the new person. That is why it is so difficult and so painful.

        (((HUGS))) It does get better – I promise.

        • Thank you all for the encouragement. I love the support I get from everyone here! It hasn’t yet sunk in for me that cheaters are not like other human beings. They don’t function the same way and trying to understand them will always be impossible! I was talking to my Dad about this tonight and wishing my ex would stop lying about me and trying to re-write history and pretend he wasn’t happy in our marriage. My Dad said “your are dealing with a psychotic asshole and it will never happen!” I know it Dad…but somehow it’s still hard. How can people treat others this way?? So hard to fathom… Just hanging on for when it gets better—thanks all!

  • I see you are fighting over finances. I love how they won’t fight for their wife or their children but they will fight to the death for money. Money was x’s God.

  • Thank you for posting this. You echoed my life. I needed to hear this truth again and you brilliantly hit it home. Thank you for your brutal honesty.

    I am happily re-married to a wonderful man who has shown me what love is. So blessed!!

  • Same here, CrazyLady: I never got an admission either.
    Two years since DDay, and I dont give a damn— what matters is that *I* know the truth— he sucks.
    Be mighty in the divorce!!!
    (((((Hugs)))))

  • Mine only admitted to a close friendship with OW with NOTHING inappropriate (apart from being “in love”!) and another 2 year “emotional affair” before that. It only occurred to me reading your letter, I’ve never got a confession of an affair either, but I don’t need to hear it. I heard enough via mutual friends later and retrieved enough suppressed gut feelings from previous suspected affairs to know I had been deluding myself for years. The best I got was him admitting during a brief guilty moment before he moved out with OW (in between self-righteous rage attacks on my wifely failings) that he was sorry he “hadn’t been a good husband”.

  • Mine never admitted to cheating because he claims I gave him permission when he demanded a menage a trois with his ex. Because “You want my blessing? You don’t have it! I don’t want you to do this. This is the worst thing you could do to us, and the worst person you could do it with!” means that I agreed to it. Simple isn’t it? He never cheated because he had my permission. That’s why he lied about going to visit his sons and stuck me on the farm with his youngest son and went to her place instead. Because I “gave him permission”. That’s why the whore lied when I phoned her looking for my missing partner…Because I gave them permission. See? No cheating!

  • Dear Sane Lady,
    What you desperately look for is validation. You need others to approve your view (he cheated) and to support your decision (to divorce).
    I totally get the need for support, I’ve been there myself.
    But you are looking for it in the wrong places. Only sane people can see straight and support a mother to divorce a cheater! Seek those people.
    Disordered people will stick with the lies. They know the difference between right and wrong, it’s what they choose to stand by. Forget those people! You don’t need them.
    But the most important thing you need to work on by yourself is this need for external validation. You KNOW the truth. You ACT on it. TRUST yourself. That’s where your power lies: within yourself.
    Please focus your energy on yourself and your boys. Go get a killer deal out of the divorce. Make him pay his alimony.
    Do not bother with the rest. Save your energy. You’ll see, truth will show itself anyway. You can expose the cheater and OW, but there is a time for that. First secure yourself and the boys.
    Wish you strength!

  • Believe I know the feeling. Mine lied to me for forty long years I now realize. He has been living a double life the entire time we were married. He has accused me to be crazy, abusive (like he is) and a drug/alcohol abuser to everyone he knows. Meanwhile I supported him and took his crap for all those years. He to this day insists that he is NOT a liar. He is a psychopath/narc. And the very best liar I have ever seen. He is also an expert at gaslighting. How I survived this shit I don’t know. All I know is, do what is right for you and do not expect a confession. He just isn’t capable of it. Move on with your life. Personally, I no longer give one rats ass what he has to say. Who cares????

    • You touched a weak spot for me with “the very best liar I have ever seen”. I was left with “how could I have been such fool?”
      I think there’s more to this. I think they actually believe those lies. They change their mindset from one moment to the next, which is crazy. Which means they have no principles or backbone.
      We are lucky to be rid of these freaks!

  • I walked in on my husband of 8 years getting head from a family friend of mine who was 14 years younger than him. He was drunk and totally used that to his advantage. Although I always had my suspicions that him and her were messing around, she would come over late nights anywhere from 11pm to 2am and hang out with my husband in our garage without me even knowing she was “visiting”. I would wake up the next morning to find her asleep on our couch. Every time I would attempt to go in the garage and hang out with them she would literally throw a fit. Briefly talk to me or only answering questions. I came home everyday for lunch and sometimes she would be in my home playing with my babies. After I found out from my older children that she would be in my house when they got home and would leave 10 minutes after they arrived. They always assumed that she was our babysitter or some kind of nanny. Once I was washing my husbands clothes and inside his balled up pants were a pair of lavender panties that did not belong to me. My husband said that they can be mine or one of our daughters, I was so upset because I purchase all underwear and know for sure those worn out panties were not mine. He would always buy sex enhancing pills and it takes a couple of hours for them to kick in and the time would pass without me and him using them together. He would also purchase condoms and we would only use like 1 or 2 from the box and then tell me later that he gave the rest to his friend to use. Also during this time he would always tell me how good of a woman this girl was, that she’s a good girl who needs a good man to guid her, they would have beautiful babies that would look like his, and that he would like for her to marry his brother, then he tried to hook her up with one of his friends. I also remember he would always let me have access to credit cards and money with no hesitation, like he would encourage me to go shopping, he even purchased me an expensive purse and truck out of nowhere. I was not expecting gifts like that. Especially given how frugal he was. I always had my suspicions but I didn’t think any of that was a big deal until I walked in on him and her then started analyzing everything. One time she got a DUI and came running over to my home while I was at work and had him go with her to try and get her car out of the impound. I remember at times he would tell me that the guy she was dating he told her not to date anymore because he wanted to see her with his brother. One crazy time probably a month before I walked in on them, she was so adamant about me coming with her to the mall to pick out a lipstick for her. I remember everything I picked out she did not like and I was finally like ok im shopping for myself now she started getting upset and I felt uncomfortable so I cautiously continued to help her find a brown colored lipstick that we both agreed looked good on her. A couple of nights later, it was late one night, she came over with the lipstick on, I said my good nights as I had work in the morning, I woke up in the middle of the night with a chilling feeling, I went into the garage and the garage door was locked. I knocked my husband opened the door. I asked him why is the door locked he said he didn’t know and that it wasn’t locked. I sat down and immediate noticed her lipstick was smeared all over her mouth and she was hammered she didn’t even know her lipstick was out of place. I didn’t understand either and I proceeded to tell her she had lipstick all over and asked her why she put her face in her hands and remained quiet. I looked at my husband and asked him why her lipstick was like that and he said he didn’t know that they were drinking and he didn’t notice. Well my dumb ass said ok and got up and walked out of the garage without even thinking the slightest that she was more than likely giving him head. One time I noticed my husband requesting paper towels for use in the garage. One day there were a lot of paper towels in the trash can and as I sat down I said “ why is there so much paper towels in the trash” and reached to sift through the trash, that girl must have sat up so straight her eyes got big her mouth slightly opened and my husband said “baby, don’t go through that your cousin was in her with a girl and you don’t know what your touching” boy did she look relieved. All of this and I look back like wow I was so, so, I don’t have the words for myself. Go ahead and judge me the worst has already happened. Whatever you call me trust me it won’t hurt as much as what he has called me after the fact. Now he tries to control my every move claiming that I can get taken advantage like he did. And that I don’t need to be going out as much. But before he never stopped me from going out with my friends. I’ll admit that now I go out more frequently as I am insecure and need to see myself dressed up. Well as for the girl she married an army man 2 weeks after I walked in on her and my husband and is now overseas. Her name is Kisha Lee Paylor if you want to know. I truly believe that this was an ongoing relationship they had. I just wish I knew for sure. I spoke with her a couple of times after the incident and she always denied they had a relationship, I guess she thinks it’s better to be though of as a rapist than a home wrecking whore. As for my husband I don’t know about us. He won’t admit if they had an affair, and she won’t either. I don’t know what I’m going to do with my mind.

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