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Closure Does Not Exist

ZombieclosureI got a really nice letter from a really nice reader “Chump Chap.” He wrote to me after he realized that he’d just gotten a non-apology apology from his cheating ex. But he didn’t realize it was a fake apology until later. And then it was GAH! She’s wasn’t sorry was she? Chumped again!

The non-apology apology is a whole separate post. What I wanted to write about was the grievous chumpy mistake Chump Chap committed — he sought out his cheater to ask her why.

It’s idiotic, but we all do this, Chump Chap. You aren’t alone wanting “closure” from your cheater.

Oh why oh why oh why did you do this to me? WHY?!

Logically, you direct this question to the person who fucked you over — the cheater.

Except it isn’t logical! They don’t have a good reason. And every reason they give you, I promise you, chumps, is going to piss you OFF.

“I dunno. Got bored I suppose.”

“He had a nice ass.”

It’s worse if they’ve spent any time on infidelity boards. Now they have a whole new vocabulary to mindfuck you with.

“I was broken from my FOO issues. It was the toxic shame borne of hand bell choir and that ugly sweater my aunt knit that my mother INSISTED I wear — I couldn’t bear my uncoolness, and I needed external validation. Lots and lots of validation. So I learned very early to lie to get what I wanted. (A Somalian refugee stole the sweater. I’m allergic to hand bells.) I guess I never stopped. Fucking those strangers on Craigslist was a coping mechanism. But I never stopped loving you, Chump Chap. I suppose a part of me will always love you. But I’m involved with Nigel now — and it’s complicated.”

Why would you stick your head in that blender?

Ask cheaters why they cheated, the worst of them are going to blame you. “I cheated because you’re fat” or “You weren’t meeting my needs.” Or they’re going to wax poetic about their affair partner. “What Tiffany and I have is real. God, she’s so good for me. Look, it’s all for the best! We’re both in better places now!”

Resist the urge for closure, chumps. Relationship autopsies do not bring relationships back to life. And thank God, because imagine the Walking Dead nightmare that would be. (Actually, anyone who has experienced false reconciliation has lived exactly that nightmare.) These things are better left DEAD.

Because when you ask your cheater why — especially after they are your ex — what you’re really trying to do is keep the relationship alive. You need sparkles. Gimme a hit on the crack pipe of hope. You want validation from this person that they Really Didn’t Mean It and have a very good reason for putting you through this hell. You want validation from the very person who just invalidated you. Was I so bad?

Look, cheaters cop to needing “closure” all the time. “I just have to meet her at that hotel in New Mexico… for closure. It just isn’t right to dump her with a no contact letter. What we had, well, I owe it to her to do it in person.” We know what closure means — it means they can’t quit the kibbles.

With chumps though — it’s like we can’t quit feeding the kibbles. Because seeking them out, demanding an answer, is kibbles to the cheater. We are reinforcing their centrality in our lives. It is the opposite of meh.

We may think we’re seeking closure to shame them, or demand accountability. They don’t see it that way. They see it as kibbles. “Isn’t that sweet? Chump can’t get over me. They’re so broken up. God, I’m fabulous. I’m sorry there isn’t enough of me to go around. Well really, I offered you a piece but you wanted the whole thing. Too bad, so sad.”

Closure doesn’t exist. Well, not in the sense that they’re going to give you a reason that will make the heavens part and confer enlightenment. You do the hard work to heal yourself over time and find acceptance. It’s probably never going to make sense to you why they betrayed you. If you’re a good person, it shouldn’t make sense.

Why did they cheat? Because they could. Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you. Not enough.

Ouch. There’s your closure.

This one ran previously. But I needed closure. So I ran it again. 

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  • You are SO right!!!! So so right. I sought closure right at the beginning and his words still ring in my head to this day. They were so hurtful. He was, and is, so messed up; how the hell was I ever going to get a rational answer from him?!

    • Same here!
      What gave me the most closure was when I thought about the math equation that the Bible gives us for marriage.
      1+1=1 in a marriage relationship.

      When adultery changes and breaks that equation, the relationship is equal to a big fat ZERO (1-1=0)….. Unless of course there is a true unicorn involved and the marriage relationship is reconciled.

      CL’s No Contact goes right along with the Zero Relationship.

      • Agree.
        I finally came to the conclusion after 2 years separation, that there would never be an answer to my question of “why?” that would make me say “Oh right, now I get it!”
        After that whenever the why popped up in my head, I answered it with “because he’s an arsehole “.

        • Exactly!! That’s when I started to heal, when I took my friend’s advice and started answering every question I had about WHY with ‘because he’s an A$$HOLE’ – because there really IS no other reason. Sad, but true.

    • The answer I got was, “because I knew you’d forgive me”. He knew I was a Chump long before I knew.
      And now if I bring it up he gets irritated and says, “you act like it was so many”. BTW it was six and I told him one was too many!

  • My STBX cheated from year 12 to 19 of our marriage because he was unhappy during the first 10 years of our marriage…
    That’s what I got for an answer when I asked him why he cheated…I almost lost my mind trying to untangle the skein of fuckupedness and danced the pick me dance for seven years…and then I met CL and CN :))

    • That’s pretty F’in’ MIGHTY, LL.

      You totally flipped the script just like Chump Lady is always encouraging us to do!

    • Thanks for sharing…I thought I was alone. I’ve been married for 13 years and was recently told that he was unhappy for 7 years oh no wait 10 years….chump me was stunned when he said this. It’s been 5 months since d-day and last night he “refused” to pay for the divorce. He cheated on me for a year and a half and when I tried to make it work for 2 months after that- he went back to her 2 more times. The only way I knew was because I “caught” them together. Meanwhile he went to counseling with me the morning before and lied straight to the counselor’s face and paid $200. In cash! Who does that? We went through mediation and now he’s threatening to withhold my share of the proceeds from the sale of the house…why? He wanted the divorce…he wanted to go live with his mistress…you’re getting what you want…you would think he would just let me go in peace….18 years of my life down the drain….sigh

      • Get a damn good lawyer. It doesn’t matter what he wants but what is fair. My X WANTED me to take him off the deed and mortgage and he wanted to skate out of all of our financial bills leaving me holding the bag. Oh and he didn’t want to pay for the divorce either.
        What he got? He paid for the divorce. He also had to pay the mortgage in it’s entirety for 4 years (allowing me to get my degree) as well as pretty much all maintenance, taxes, and homeowners insurance (for same 4 years). He also got about 80% of the debt. Fuck you stbx.

      • Here’s the thing… these sicko’s use your emotional distress to their advantage…. pick them while they are ripe so to speak!

        Someone caught in unbearable emotional pain isn’t in their right mind – literally. You need someone advocating on your behalf. Sure, it’s going to piss him off, and you’ll get more about what an aweful person you are, but once you pull yourself out of that dark hole, and are in your right mind, you’ll have a different perspective.

      • Wasted Years – get angry!! Then use that anger to make sane and rational decisions. Mine didn’t pay for the divorce — he wanted mediation— but after 30 years, I wasn’t going through this without a lawyer and she was awesome. He’s on the hook for our daughters’ college loans which he insisted upon and he co-signed. Get lawyered up and protect yourself.

        I also got the ILYBANILWY scenario and it hurts like crazy but when you realize that they are the dysfunctional person in the relationship, it makes it easier to move forward with your dignity intact.

        March on!

      • Wasted-This is not the sort of man you should be in mediation with. Get a lawyer!! It’s totally worth the money!

      • Wasted, Sugar is spot on! Get you a good lawyer but also talk to anyone that you know has had to go through this shit storm and make a list of everything that you want! It’s not up to him – NOT AT ALL. The law is the law and no one can change that, not him nor his lawyer. Don’t listen to anything he says because he is trying to scare you into agreeing with him. Don’t agree with anything that you don’t want. Your lawyer can put in the paperwork that he pays all divorce fees, including your lawyer fees. Whether you get it or not is up to the judge and the judge only. Ask for everything and I mean everything! Even if you cannot afford to keep the house, ask for it and do whatever you have to do to get it in your name and sell it if you have to.
        The only 2 things that I wish I would have known to ask for is for the paperwork to state that the kids’ pics are not to be posted anywhere on social media and that there are no sleepovers allowed when the kids are with their father.
        Make a list, as long a list as you want to make. Ignore him and avoid all contact possible. This is now a business deal and you’re in business to WIN what he made the conscious decision to GIVE UP!
        What he got – his clothes, his boat, his hunting stuff & 2 of the vehicles (they were really old).
        Of the 6 investment accounts, I got 5 of them in totality.
        The 6th account was used to pay off my school loan and then it was halved between us.
        AND I get child support (minimal because he has to carry the kids on his insurance but just the mere fact that he has to write that check to me is satisfaction alone).
        My very wise Pastor told me “keep your mouth shut, hold your head high, make your list and don’t leave off anything, and let’s go to court! Most judges side with the mother 99% of the time. State the facts of the business transaction only. The judge don’t care about feelings in the court room.”
        So, I did what I was told to do and I came out overwhelmingly well!
        Keep taking care of the kids and if he wants to argue about custody, then the judge can decide the custody.
        Best of wishes to you!!!

      • Nearly forty years down the drain. STBX doesn’t want to go to lawyer and get divorce. I have to do it. It must be some type of powerplay for him!

        • Crazy Lady, This seems to be some kind of cheater narc standard behaviour, from their playbook. It gets them off the hook for being the one who officially ended the marriage, it allows them to eat cake a little longer, and it makes it clear that ‘you are not the boss of them!’.

          They are such children.

          • My thoughts exactly, they don’t want to take responsibility even for ending the marriage. My narc dragged it out for two years of torture, until every shred of trust – the trust that had been the foundation of our family’s life – was utterly and irrevocably destroyed. At which point, I finally took ChumpLady’s advice and pulled the plug my damn self; but God am I weak from this weird battle. The divorce is now just a week or two from complete. Onward.

            Why, indeed.

      • I guess I am lucky. He only said he hadn’t felt like my husband in “years”. He didn’t specify how many of our 22 years married at that time that was.

        • So then you lawyer up and get the advantage over him. His reluctance to get a lawyer and file is to YOUR benefit and his disadvantage. If he wants to hobble along you can run laps around him in court so fast his head will spin. Even if you don’t go through with a divorce or you reconcile etc etc, protect your assets. force a postnup. You can call off lawyers laters and have a safety net in place.

      • Wasted years. You have heard it enough times but I’ll add my “get a lawyer” to that too. I’m in the process of going to mediation soon but I have a solicitor and a barrister for it. Initially I wanted everything to be nice and amicable, and initially he was very generous in his offers – but he kept changing his offers (obviously downwards!) and then never replying to the documents put together by my lawyer (he is much better off than me but I have been paying my lawyer to do it). I actually changed lawyer to a more assertive one recently and, actually, they reckon I am entitled to a fairly good deal, in my circumstances. At least with good legal representation, I will get what is fair, whatever that it – as decided by independent people, not an entitled narcissist (like your ex most definitely sounds like too).
        You can’t trust them to do the right thing – in fact, the only thing you can trust them to do is what is best for them. And you don’t have to. I love the other stories of great outcomes posted to you too – and I will remember the advice from HateHWWs pastor (even though I am not religious!)
        Good luck to you! These bullies make us forget that we have rights but we do!

    • On Dday, now-ex told me that he’d been unhappy from the very beginning of our 20-year marriage. What’s funny is that right up until Dday, he always said he was happy, he loved me, I was his best friend, he would never want our marriage to end. All that changed on Dday to he never felt passion for me, only married me because he thought I would take care of him, had nothing in common with me, was miserable from the start.

      The only place where closure exists is on TV shows. In real life, it’s a very rare occurrence. I finally simply had to accept the reason ex did the things he did is because he is a bad person. Lying and cheating are central to his very being. He covers it up really, really well, however, so it’s confusing. Glitter on a turd, and most people think he is gold.

      • Dear Wasted, Glad, this is why ChumpLady is so invaluable! My x did this to me too. We were married for 30 years, and when he left he told me he’d been unhappy for 10. No, 20! He also said he never loved me. I asked him why he married me then, and he said “Because YOU wanted to.” (Funny, I never noticed him doing much else simply because _I_ wanted it.) I asked him if he still had any feelings for me at all and he said, “I guess… as the mother of my children.”

        True chump that I was, I was devastated by these words (at that time I did not know about the rampant infidelity). I spent months trying to convince him to save the marriage and the family. I just couldn’t figure out what was happening to him. I spent a few hundred dollars on some RIC counseling—the gal told me to wear red when I saw him because men can’t resist women who wear red.

        Then I discovered CL and read others’ experiences—like yours—that were eerily similar to mine. I was floored. I realized it wasn’t me, it was HIM. I started reading about Cluster B personality behaviors, which fit him to a T. The more I read CL’s blog, the more I realized my x is not unique.

        That was when I stopped blaming myself. Finding CL and gaining an understanding of narcissistic personality disorder has been the best closure of all.

        P.S. Wasted, I would also say get a lawyer. I can’t imagine any state where he could walk away with all of your home equity after you’ve been married for 13 years. He wouldn’t be able to in mine.

        • This is part of their delusion and how ultra special and entitled they are. Also is part of the threat to keep you in place and under their control. Don’t buy it and don’t be intimidated. You have one good shot at getting out of this with what you deserve. Don’t let them make you believe you’re at fault and don’t deserve. It’s part of their mindfuck.

          If they are giving, be on alert too. Mine thought by giving me stuff during the divorce (which I filed for as he was wanting cake), he was leaving the door open in case he wanted to return. When they realize there’s no return, watch for the rage channel to flip on….

          • Oh, but it’s the BEST revenge EVER if you realize that they are being “generous” while trying to keep that door open to play along with their generosity. My ex is flummoxed by how happy I seem and how gratefully I accept “stuff”. I see that rat brained idiot thinking “is she really happy to see me? Wow, she’s acting so thankful.” when in truth I’m happier than I’ve been in years now that meh has arrived- and I am thankful – but not to him but to God in heaven because He got me out of Hell on Earth. I don’t think rat brain is going to flip on the rage at me for a long time because I’m so “nice” and “sweet” but meanwhile back in ‘ho-ville who do you think is catching all kinds of fresh hell every time he has to write out that support check? Who is getting all the blame for how fucked up his life is now. I hear through the grapevine that she’s going insane because he’s telling her that I’m doing so well, that I look so good, I seem so happy and other coworkers in their office are delivering the same news! Talk about sweet, sweet revenge, I’m living well, choosing happy and flushing those turds into the sewer where they can stew in their own stink. When he tries to come back (and I feel certain he will) it is going to be the most gratifying feeling to kindly thank him for the compliment and hand him a giant shit sandwich in a to-go box for him to carry back and share with his ‘ho. CHOOSE HAPPY CHUMPS! CHOOSE IT. It won’t come overnight but when it arrives you will completely understand the platitude that the best revenge is living well.

            • Oh I’m playing ‘nice’ with him. Mainly for my kids now. I’ve been trying to figure out why he’s being vindictive now with little upper cuts and jabs. I’ve been told it’s because he can’t believe I’m doing so well without him and he’s pissed. Yep, move along asswipe. Nothing left for you here is what I’m thinking. But that shit eating grin on my face now is a big F U for the smirk he gave me when he ran off with young schmoopie 🙂

              • Brillant!!! You rock! You know you’ve taken back your power when the rat brains react. Getting to meh is great. Getting to indifference is powerful. And I think that you are exactly right – you aren’t reacting the way you are “supposed to”. It’s the ultimate ego smash and it sure does diminish the “prize” – especially when your life isn’t emotionally related to him anymore. I faked it so hard for so long and then like the Velveteen Rabbit one day I woke up “real”. Real rabbits get to LIVE because they recognize and value REAL hearts. Fake rabbits don’t because they don’t have real hearts. They have SAWDUST in that hollow place. You, my friend, are a real rabbit. Real rabbits can’t ever understand sawdust ones. So why would you want to understand and relate to a fake rabbit anyway when you can choose the real ones to give your love.

            • Cleopatra – you are a goddess. I know I should be doing this with my sparkly turd – he has flashes of generosity and I’m pretty sure will be more generous if I was nicer to him. I do manage to be nice to him from time to time but it is so hard to keep up as he is so vile, particularly to our children (he is so entitled, he wouldn’t see it). We are coming up to mediation – I should try harder! I know it will work.
              He married OW within 6 months of leaving (we were together 20 years but not married) – and essentially has bought her. However, I know he would like to be “friends” particularly as he has totally fucked his, already tenuous and maintained by me previously, relationship with his children, and I am basically the bridge to them (I don’t use this). It also helps him maintain his self-image as a good guy – he has written me emails telling me how “kind” he is!
              I need to remember your mightiness! Be nice – for me! And for my kids! Not for him.

        • OMGosh. Change a couple of numbers and you’ve written my story. He’d been unhappy for all of our marriage, married me because I didn’t dump him (not kidding. His words) and I was convenient, never loved me, and then there were the FOO issues that marriage therapist concentrated on with him. Want to know why? Because he already knew the issues weren’t with me but with his mother! Who, FYI, was a cheater.

          Then the infidelity was disclosed. Oh, that little old thing? It wasn’t anything. I was already unhappy. I already didn’t love you. Plus it’s over. THAT’S why I can still work with her. Because those feelings are extinguished. But don’t call her a whore. She was sweet and innocent. I was older and took advantage of her (FYI, she played that card well and she was a cunning little thing. Not excusing him, but he was PLAAAAAYED).

          There is no way to earn trust back. When they play that tune of “I’ve been unhappy for years” and “I never loved you,” it’s a death of the marriage. He’s changed his story since then but I can never unhear those words. I can never reclaim the marriage I thought I had. I can never unsee the fibers of the carpet that my face pressed against as I cried in fetal position. Forgiveness? It’s reaching “Meh.” Forgetting? Those experiences and feelings are etched into my cells. The pain and anger are all but gone. But forgetting is not an option.

      • <<>> Me too, me too!

        Closure for me was his infidelity. It was the final piece of a puzzle I’d been trying to put together for 27 years. You see, I picked up a puzzle all those years ago and there was this picture on the box of a wonderful man. But when I opened the box, laid out all the pieces and found out where the edges were, I realized that someone must’ve switched out the contents of the box. The colors were all wrong. Did I return that puzzle to the store? Nope! I love me a good puzzle. I doubled-down and decided to put that fucker together. I studied those pieces, I spent years trying to work out how they went together. When that infidelity piece got put in and I pulled back to see what the picture was, that’s when I saw it: it was a very subtlety shaded coward.

        I boxed that mother-fucker up and handed it to his schmoopie.

        I don’t do puzzles anymore.

        • That was awesome McChumpFace! I’ll never figure out those pieces of him that don’t match the rest of the puzzle. Moving towards “meh” and the puzzle went into the recycle bin.

        • I put my 1000 piece puzzle together and discovered a piece missing. I looked all over for that piece so the picture would be complete. It would have been so beautiful I would have had it framed. Unfortunately it wasn’t an edge piece that could be hidden but one smack in the middle.

      • Ha that is the exact speech i got….apparently he had felt nothing since the kids were born (eldest is 21) charming. He added that he would miss my cooking …. seriously . Amoung our circle of friends we were the most unlikely couple to split so i dont feel like somehow i missed something.

  • Only thing I got that was close to closure with Mac was that he didn’t like my friends or my drinking. I told him where to shove it.

    • Oh wow. Yes. She didn’t like my drinking and friends. Non reasons. Just bs to try and get me further off track.

      • And I’m not saying I don’t have to be careful how I drink, but bringing my best friend into it was low. In fact when he said that, I knew something else was up and flat-out asked if there was someone else. His response was ” If I said no, I would be lying.”

        • Damn that’s cold. Was it your best friend then or just your best friend being brought into this because he/she knew more of what was happening out of your sight?

        • When I asked my Narc Ex-wife if there was someone else, she flat out denied it. Then I uncovered the Facebook messages between the two of them where she recounted our conversation to Prince Charming: “He asked if there was someone else. I said no, of course.”

          Of course. At least he can’t say he doesn’t know the woman he eventually married is both a cheater AND a liar. And they’re expecting a baby any day now. Welcome to 18 years of child support, Prince Charming!

    • Because your friends probably had him figured out and he was the reason you drank.
      Plenty of people don’t drink, but there’s no way I could of survived this without the glass of wine I would drink as I tossed a frisbee in my backyard for my dog and reflected on how fucked up it all was.

        • Nope, Mac is a he. We’re both Catholic, but he was much more into “clean” living re: sex, liquor, organic food…. and also interpreted the Faith in a more strict manner. Hence, he didn’t like that my dear friend is part of the LGBT community- though of course he didn’t actually say so until the day in question.

          His other justification was that Sue actually loved him and I’d never loved him even though he loved me- we’d been going out all of seven weeks!

  • There was closure for me.
    All the “why?” Questions I asked in my head trying to figure things out need with the same answer,


    I now tell fellow chumps, there is no why, there is only the fact that they suck as human beings. That’s my closure. That’s all I need to know. They don’t think and feel like we do so they will not have a reason why, an excuse, oh sure there are all sorts of excuses but no reasons.

    • I listened to a song by Father Jon Misty and this lyric summed up cheaters for me…

      “…You’re a glorious shit The entire world revolves around”

  • Oh yes, I did this on DDay. “Why, why, why?” I wrote over text (I confronted him over the telephone). A bit embarrassing now that I had to ask him three times in a sort of begging way. Thankfully, I found Chump Lady soon after, and quickly learnt never to ask ‘why’ again.

    Oh, out of interest, the reply I got was something along the lines of “things just aren’t right between us.”

    Oh, so that’s ok then! Exit affairs are a totally legitimate way to bring an end to a marriage. Oh, by the way, thanks for not bothering to tell me that things weren’t right between us, and not bothering to tell me about your affair, and leaving me holding the baby and special-needs son.

    Don’t bother asking why. You won’t learn anything.

    • Yep I got something like “because you made me feel un-noticed” I still don’t understand what that means. Like you said I learnt nothing.

      • Oh I got that one as well. I retorted with facts. That I was there every day for her, always asked her how she was doing at work and she’d always tell me so much that there wouldn’t even be any time left for me to tell about my day. Or if I went on longer than usual I’d get the you talk too long…

        Then it was the kids that took up most of our used to be together alone time. Well yeah. That’s what they call adulting and trusting.

        But hey, after 6 years of building a life and memories together, I guess I still should provide her all the kibbles she was used to be getting.

        In no way could she look ahead and think, wow it’s a hard time and it will get better in a couple of years when they’re older. Our first kid and they turned out to be twins. Double whammy to your free time.

        So yeah she felt unnoticed is what I got as a reason as well.

        Yuck. And when you feel unnoticed you of course have to go to your husbands best friend since preschool. Another double whammy, make it extra painful.

        Of course I chumped along until dday #2.

        Sigh. Ah well, she’s stbxw now and things are in motion. Thank God I didn’t chump along till my 60+.

        • Ugh OneDay — your best friend? I’m sorry. Double betrayal sucks donkey balls.

          • And now that I’m in a bad place she starts to suggest I should work on myself and maybe see the kids less for a while. Eugh. Time to get mighty. I’m in a bad place because of you. I’ll be fine. Thanks for being there CL

            • Um, maybe SHE needs to see less of the kids for a while, given that she just personally blew up their home and family, and screwed over their dad, all for the sake of attention. I hope you shut that down and that you’re working with a good lawyer who will help you preserve your parental rights.

              • Yep!
                Sounds like she’s trying to manipulate and control the kids’ perception of what/who blew up their home & hurt their father.

                I’ve learned that my kids & I need to beware ANYTIME X phrases anything as if he’s being thoughtful or considerate of others. He definitely has an ulterior motive when that happens. EVERYTHING is for his benefit–never someone else’s!

              • Nyra

                The phrasing in thoughtful considerate tones comment is on the money. Buyer beware.

              • Nyra

                Yes, I got the ‘believe me I’d never take them away from you’ multiple times during that conversation.

                Based on her trustability after ddays #1&2 I read that as: ‘Hey, if you don’t agree with me I will. Or maybe I just will, whatever.’

                So yeah… They’re almost all the same to a tee. I mean. This comment goes here to prove me I’m right and the whole idea that they have the same playbook is right. #Datestamped

            • Good God don’t let he take the sane parent away from her kids. She’s done enough damage already.

              • Yeah I know, I’m trying to not go full rage but keep calm and yes mediator is there. Time is here for rationality and keeping the conversation going. Don’t want to go full on lawyer because Europe and that means no fault. Dads can’t get full custody that easy, let alone 50/50 from the get go.

                She’ll not get the kids more then necessary.

                Appreciate your concerns everyone. Thank you for telling me what I need to hear.

            • There is no reason why you have to share anything with her.

              There doesn’t need to be any discussion with her about “how you aren’t doing so well”. You don’t owe her any of this.

            • OneDaySomeDay that day gets closer day by day. Hugs to your mighty self

        • I got “I don’t like you and I don’t like people like you.” I still don’t know what that means but that was his reason. Seemed to like me just fine to be with me 18 years plus 2 kids.

          And I’m so sorry. Double betrayal here as well. My ex-husband and my upstairs neighbor/dear family friend. They are still together. I’m at meh but it sucks for my kids. I just work on continuing to be the sane, awesome parent that I am. My girls are young but they already get it!

    • I have a similar situation. I am now left raising a 1.5 year old and and 7 yr old with special needs. This has been so hard and finding my closure and letting go of the anger & resentment is such a challenge. I have been working on me & my business and things are going great. I’ve lost 85 lbs, dating scene is great and took coaching for my business and doabled my income. You would think that’s enough to boost my confidence and not be mad or resentful but I still am. Any tips?

      • Trust that they suck. I think it takes time to see the big picture and know that you are better off now and they are screwing with someone else’s life. Good for you that you are moving on and improving your life in every area. I hope you are very proud of yourself. It’s hard to be betrayed and not feel resentful for a long time, but you’re on your way to Meh! You are a great mom and you are mighty!

      • Denise, in some respects you are far ahead of me, in all that you have achieved. Well done!

        In terms of the ‘internal’ stuff- the anger, the resentment etc, I think it’s a matter of time. Helped along by keeping away from your ex in all respects- that includes social media. Keep contact between you totally grey rock and only discuss your children and divorce proceedings. Have as little to do with him as possible.

        I know myself that when I don’t hear from him for ages, I start to feel better, more like me. The minute he starts emailing about this and that, it sends me down, or like you, angry. I still get bursts of anger at the injustice of it all. But then I go and have a rant about it to someone who I trust. Then I change the subject and I start to feel better.

        Your anger & resentment is totally normal and healthy. Don’t fight it or punish yourself for feeling it. Just channel it. Have a rant with someone you love and trust and give yourself some time to feel angry when it comes on, then change the subject and move on. Do this each time.

        You are doing so well. Believe me. What you’ve already achieved is fantastic. Keep going. Forget that idiot. Keep focusing on you and your kids.

        • Recently i read a blog about how to get out a funk, I’ve heard the advise before but sometimes it takes different words or a new source to make you think about it.

          One of the quotes was
          “The primary cause of unhappiness is not the situation but your thoughts about it.”

          We all waste so much emotional energy thinking about why or how come or wtf, we keep ourselves stuck – makes it harder to move forward when you’re constantly thinking of the past. I haven’t figured out how to not do this myself, but being aware of it helps and makes me more conscience of it. Its a work in progress, for all of us

        • Are there other words to describe our reaction to being betrayed, treated treacherously, abused, violated, & defiled by our spouses?

          Why are such negative words used to describe the natural reaction to being a victim of adultery? I think it takes the focus off the cause & prevents victims of adultery from progressing through the stages of grief more quickly. We’re stuck in denial longer because we’re afraid to express anger because we’ll be labeled with all those negative words. Being angry is not always wrong or sin. Adultery is!

          I agree with others, these feelings are natural & healthy. We cannot work through this life changing event & heal without going through these emotions. Something terrible has happened to us & our children. No sane person could be “happy” to have that bomb dropped on them and their family. The cheaters can be calm & in control because they have not been violated and are focusing on image control.

          If this is the point you’re at, please remember that it is part of the healing process. It does not define you. It’s evidence that you are the sane partner and parent. Put that energy to good use–don’t condemn yourself for it!

          • Nyra, thank you for these words. I needed to hear it today. Anger is all part of the process. We are allowed to grieve as much as we need as long as we are not hurting anyone else. NC and Time are essential to our recovery. Wishing courage, grace and strength for everyone here. We will get through this because we deserve love, kindness, and peace.

      • It took me more than a year to get over the rage, and settle into a manageable level of residual anger and resentment. At some point I told myself that I should send flowers to the OW because Ex was a crappy, self-centered, emotionally distant partner who I’d still be with if it wasn’t for her.

        I’m 100% sure that after the initial shmoopie-love-bombing he did with her, he fell back into his old, crappy, self-centered, emotionally distant ways, and now he’s HER problem, not mine.

        Thinking these thoughts always makes me feel better! 😀

        P.S. congratulations on losing 85 lbs and doubling your income! See what you can accomplish without that dead weight in your life?!

      • Thank you Everyone! If it wasn’t for the fact that I am looking and feeling healthier and better and I am able to afford the lifestyle I was used to when we had 2 incomes coming in I don’t know what the hell would be of me. I’m learning to turn my pain/anger into motivation and I do feel proud of that. I want to show myself, my girls and my ex that we don’t need his cheating ass. He’s someone else’s problem now and I have another shot at a better life!

      • Denise,
        If you haven’t checked out Divorce Ministers blog yet, I encourage you to check out what he put up today!
        He addresses the injustice of it all.

    • Mine was an exit affair sitch too. What I got after twenty years was, my feelings changed years ago, feels like we are roomates I love the life we live but there is something missing. Blah and blah and more blah. I should have told him to get out right then and there as he wasn`t really looking to fix anything but like many of the rest of you didn`t want to see or believe that. And actually in the shock and confusion couldn`t think anyhow. That was the first convo leading up to his making the great escape. About two weeks later after staying out the entire night till noon the next day stumbled defiantly in the door with no shame and told me he met a girl.. No fake remorse for the spineless coward, clothes in garbage bags and out by that evening.
      That was my closure and all probably most of us ever get and honestly looking back almost two years I could have done without the parting words Anything else they would have said would probably have made us feel worse anyhow. The best closure is that they are gone

  • I asked my exh “why”. I asked more than once. The second time I asked him I told him I deserved answers. Do you think I got them? He got a real pissy look on his face and spouted nonsense. I called him out on the nonsense. He then started to go outside. I followed him demanding answers. He broke into a run. Actually running away ?. Running through the side yard. He then turned around and charged at me and screamed he was leaving but he just hid in the basement for awhile.
    No answers, no closure. There was drama, anger, and frustration, though.☺️

    • Supreme,
      That is so freakin’ hilarious. Mandie nailed it- he is a PUNK ASS BITCH.
      Watching the Monty Clip was right on cue.

      I am not trying to one up you, but thought I would provide more comic relief on the closure trick.

      One day in a confrontation, the Infested was sitting on the couch. I started interrogating him vainly to “get some answers” He got and went to the guest bedroom. He came back with a huge, heavy comforter I use in winter.

      He sat back down on the couch and put the comforter over his head. Draped it over his head and body. Like a child playing a ghost. He sat there with the comforter over his head and would not respond.

      The dogs saw this, thought it was a wonderful new game and began play attacking the comforter. I had just taken in huge, strong yellow Lab who had been discarded on the road.

      She (revived after living in my house and all the goodies) would take a running leap and literally bounce off his head with her front paws with great force and delight. She weighs about 110 lbs. I said nothing.

      He did not remove the comforter but wiggled around and yowled “Owwww…..Make them stop….. Wawawaaaaaaa” and then starts to moan and simper like an infant. This further excited my little gang of hoodlums and they started throwing toys to the lump under the comforter.

      It was one of the most revolting man baby things I have ever seen in my life. I stopped talking and packed a suitcase for him like a wild woman. I ripped that comforter off his fucking head and said, GET OUT OF MY HOUSE.

      • This Is Not A Test, wow. Just wow. The visual is hilarious. Good grief. I know the kind of disgust you feel as this is actually going on before your very eyes, but I hope you can laugh a little bit now at how ridiculous the behavior is. It’s all so mind-boggling.

        The dog though…LOL HAHAHAHAHA

      • Funniest closure I have ever heard. I laughed out loud. First time in a while. Thanks

      • Oh my. Not only is this hilarious, but the pulling the covers and blankets over themselves is EXACTLY what my ShiTBoX (STBX) husband used to do! He’d be there on the sofa, hiding under the blanket. Or pull the duvet over his face.

        Or, he’d pull up the hood on his hoodie and pull it as far down over his face as he could- but continue to sit on the sofa with me, or even with his parents sitting there.

        Or, if our boy was kicking off and the baby was screaming, he’d not help out, he’d stay sitting on the sofa and get a cushion and put it over his face.

        Hiding under fabric?

        Weird and childish.

      • This Is Not A Test, OMG, I laughed out loud! HILARIOUS! Good for your dog. Good for you for getting him out of your house. You are free from that jerk.

      • This is one of the best stories I have read in a long time. Comforter over the head? What a freak and loser. I am so glad the dog had your back, that you got a laugh, a threw the jackass out. Lame, lame, lame.

      • Those 2 stories made me laugh until tears were streaming down my face. On the subway. My God these people redefine “childish.” Lolol

      • Tears are rolling down my cheeks in laughter ! Guard dogs on the loose ! It’s like a cat leaving a poop in the shoe of somebody it doesn’t like !

        • Me too, I couldn’t stop laughing as I pictured those dogs throwing toys at him under the comforter.

      • Ha bloody ha this reminds me of my fucktards exit. He went out drinking a few days after telling me out of the blue he wanted a divorce. I had been awake for days just trying to let that sink in after 20 years and eventually realised what was actually going on. ie he (and his elderly parents!) Had set me up and gouged the accounts. I stormed into the bedroom and flipped out screaming he had fucked me over how dare he …blah blah. And he wakes up makes some crying noises about being tired and what time was it then curled into the fetal position and fake cried “i did it for the kids” ….in other words spent all our money and even the kids savings on holidays and expensive hobbies presumably so the kids would think he was dad of the year . Trouble is dad of the year left us all penniless and since he and the new victim are having so much fun hes decided not to bother supporting them any more after 18 . Dick

    • Lol. Mine packed up enough to fill the backseat and trunk of his car and left when I was 6 months pregnant. A few weeks later, he was hiding in my basement, too. After 6 weeks of this, I told him he needed to find somewhere else to stay until he got some help and figured out why he was unhappy and willing to hurt his wife and kids so easily (already went through dday#1 and wreckonciliation 2 years previously).

      At that point, I didn’t even know about OW#2. He saved that for 4 weeks after my c-section. I dug just enough to know it had been going on while I was pregnant and then I stopped asking why. I was done listening to his half truths and lies. The narrative from him was never honest. It was instead whatever he needed to justify his choices and actions or to purposely mislead me. That is when I went no contact (or grey rock since we have kids). Getting distance is the only way to get clear from their mind games.

    • HAHAHA he RAN AWAY and HID from you??

      No words except so many words!

      How do these people not realise how undignified, immature and childish they are? How do they not know?

    • Mine kind of did that too as I wasn1`t letting him drive off without better answers or so I thought, he too hid in the garage and was flinging his stuff around and loading up the truck yelling I confused him. Sounds like you had another spineless coward like I had

  • If you acknowledge that cheaters are messed up and mentally warped, you know that any answer to the ‘why?’ question will come up deficient.
    Save yourself added mind fucks and avoid if you can.
    Most of us unsuspecting ones in the heat of the moment will blurt out why, but I suspect it’s the shock talking.
    Does the why matter? It won’t change the facts. They screwed us over and wasted our time. Don’t give them another second.

    • Mine told me he cheated because I told him to do what he wanted. This was after discovering one affair and several inappropriate flirtations.
      Yes it was at that point that he decided to listen to me and do what I suggest. ? When I told him screwing around was bad for the family and himself…That fell on deaf ears.

      • My ex-cheater said he wanted an open marriage because he wants “all the things.” I think that’s pretty accurate. Good luck with that, living in your parents’ basement, trawling and, and trying to succeed in a new business. This swirling turd has all the executive skills of a horny 13-yr old who spent the last 10 years leaving me to open his mail for him and take care of all his bills, tickets, and bad life choices. Yesterday I had to text him “where are the kids? You said you would drop them off at 6:30.” His reply: “sorry, things made me late.” There are those pesky ‘things’ again. What a douche. I thought I had poor taste in men before I married him, but now I have to face the fact that I actually managed to pick the worst of them all. Literally, I married the worst man I have ever met. After I thought I had “fixed my picker.” Thank God I have my kids, it makes it all worth it. On to the next chapter of my life with two kids, instead of 2, plus 1 with “special needs.” God help his next victim.

        • I can totally relate, mines a man child. Why I asked ‘because I just wanted something for myself’ oh and The old ‘you didn’t appreciate me’ which may be true. Hard to appreciate someone who lets and expects you do everything and works too much to buy crap he doesn’t need.
          Onwards and upwards, no more questions I don’t need more pain inflicted on me.

          • Mine was under the impression that he had spent his whole life doing things for others with no return so he decided to do something to make himself happy for once in his life. The guy was totally delusional if he thought that was the truth.

            • Funny i got that line too. A beligerent (like a 16 yr old) “i do everything for you lot…what about me!??” I was so stunned i had to remind myself i was hearing this from an adult with 3 teenage kids who are all perfect btw so nothing to complain about there. So sure enough he did make it all about him and he is now acting like the most selfish person i have ever come across. Any time i even hinted at needing financial help with the kids after he walked to his AP he countered with cries of extortion and blackmail until i gave up. So if course no closure…the more you look the more hurt comes raining down on you . Funny thing was he used to be president of the humanist society. ..hilarious. i always thought those freaks had no souls !!

          • Bwahaha! My ex just got a letter that he bounced his car payment. I still get his mail because he hasn’t bothered to change his address. It’s been 8 months. This is the 4th time he’s missed a payment. The last time, they tripled his car insurance rate because of it. Meanwhile, I just put a deposit down on a brand new car of my choosing. #imaybesadnowbutimdefinitelywinning.

          • Me , myself,I they sure use these words a lot. You just reminded me of that. I had to hear what about what I want as I was screaming at him as he got his crap together to leave. I think that is our collective answer here people. What they want, no other reason needed

        • HAHAHA he RAN AWAY and HID from you??

          No words except so many words!

          How do these people not realise how undignified, immature and childish they are? How do they not know?

  • “Because they could. Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you.”

    Once this bit of simplicity sunk in and took hold, (2 months post d-day, upon reading LAC,GAL), acceptance fell over me like a warm blanket, the question “why?” never reared its head again, and gray rock became SO much easier.

    • At my Dday #2 with a new schmoopie from the first Dday (our teenaged daughter’s young coach at our kids school), it really hit me what a complete entitled selfish ass he was. It’s mind boggling how this 48 y.o. man thinks so much of himself that he’s chasing around after a twenty something young girl. Really?

      It was bad enough he could do this to me, but to his kids? How’s that shit sandwich at their school in front of their teammates and friends?

      I was mighty (granted not the 1st Dday) and told him ‘I’m done. Amicable’. What did he do? Chase even harder after schmoopie. I think she played some cat and mouse with him for a while before she realized she didn’t want a nasty old man with baggage.

      A year later he’s telling our teenagers ‘He didn’t mean to hurt anybody’. I’m sure in his mind this is true. We were all just collateral damage for him and his entitled wants at the time.

      Once you see them for who they are, there really is no going back.

    • Exactly UX. It is the answer to all “why” questions. They knew exactly what they were doing and that what they were doing would hurt us. They. did. not. care. Once your mind embraces that foreign concept the rest is easy. I am often bemused that so many such sub-humans are walking around apparently reading from the same playbook and I am even more often amused by their stupid antics, but I never spend a moment wondering why now that I accept this premise: “Because they could. Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you.”

      • I get the totally selfish “knew exactly what they were doing” part. I just still get hung up on the part where they don’t care if they hurt us. It really seems to be intentional infliction of emotional pain. Is it punishment for some perceived injustice we’ve done to them? Uh oh. Did I just ask “Why?” Am I trying to untangle the skein?


        Ok, lemme go re-read LACGAL. Also, just got a copy of Splitting by Kreger/Eddy. Will dive into that, too.

  • Here’s why: Because he could, and because he wanted to. Nothing to do with me. Good riddance, I deserve more.

  • Why?

    Here’s the internal monologue of a cheater:

    “I want this. I deserve this. Therefore, I will do what feels good for me.”

    That’s it. They’re about as deep as a puddle.

  • Reading the posts today, I am not at meh but maybe I am closer because I am not asking why but rather what? As in wtf and wth? This week has been turbulent with the legal aspect. We had our mediation hearing where his only request was counseling for the kids- I agreed no problem.

    Three days later he emails estranged adult daughter that I am crazy and that he is so sorry for the pain he has caused but he had to leave because he couldn’t take it anymore. Day after, he gives middle son the same line in person.

    Yesterday, adult son goes to counseling appointment arranged by cheater. Session starts with son as cheater is late. Cheater barges in 15 minutes late and begins ranting that he went to mediation and feelingit doesn’t want cheater to have custody. Therapist tells him she is talking to adult son now and that is an issue for later. He leaves, does not wait for adult son as the weather is nice and the fish are calling.

    So now, I do not wonder why, I know why: he is disordered. But I still wonder what? He left over a year ago and I have had the children nearly 100%. I stopped consulting him on anything regarding them last fall so what the hell does he think will be different if I have sole custody? Is the answer to that also he is disordered.

    Btw the complaint I filed months ago clearly stated I was requesting sole custody and now this is news? Oh forgive me, Fuckwit probably didn’t have time to read it, you know with fishing and all.

    • He doesn’t want the kids, he wants the control. For so many of these cheaters, that is 100% what it is about. Heaven forbid that they have to do any actual parenting. No, they just want the power to tell you how to parent and how you are doing it all wrong. Or, they are looking for a way to avoid paying child support. There is an epidemic out there of parents who use the presumption of shared custody as a way to avoid paying their financial obligations. Do they have any sincere desire to actually take care of their kids? Hell, no. But they’ll hold their breath and turn blue in the face before they will agree to provide the resources necessary to care their own flesh and blood. It is a disgrace.

      • You are so right violet- Control is the spot on one word description of his entire mantra!

      • Too right…mine wanted a few outings for coffee/movies when it suited him to try and make up 50% parenting to dodge child support. Didnt happen. Kids were appalled at his behaviour and treatment of me and just kept their distance. Who knows how its going with new victim….he wont even tell the kid hes still on talking terms where he lives!!

    • My STBX doesn’t read either. 2 months after the temporary order was put in place granting him standard parenting time, he went to his court ordered parenting seminar. That is when he realized he had every other weekend and every Wednesday night.

      He sent me a text telling me that I have not complied with the order. Ummmm…you are the one who didn’t pick them up at those times. You are the one that requested seeing them only when it fit in your schedule. He NEVER even READ the order beyond the support amount.

      Guess how many Wednesday nights he has seen the kids since his revelation? Zero. And on his weekends, he spends a whopping 1-2 hours with my older daughter taking her to dinner. And the baby? She was diagnosed with a seizure disorder almost a year ago and he still has not bothered to get training to take her. But yeah…I was the one who did not comply with the order. I am the one “keeping” him from his kids.

    • Well, the longer you’ve had official or unofficial sole custody, the more likely the courts are to grant it to you! I hope you are documenting, if not, start now! I expect the sudden demand for custody is motivated by some whim of self-interest that will fade quickly, but some of these people prefer conflict, and they will sustain and escalate hostilities via any means available to them, so you need to be prepared to demonstrate that you are the best custodial parent.

  • Well, x “didn’t do anything wrong” ( aka, I didn’t catch him with his dick in the whore), so there’s no need for x-planation, is there?

  • I asked many times and got a different answer every time. I’d say well that doesn’t make sense because you thought our marriage was over yet we went on holidays and I bought you a new iphone last week and we were looking at buying a new home and we had sex …doesn’t sound like a marriage that is over. Try again. So then there was a different reason….and then another. And so you were unhappy for 7 years but were okay with cheating on me, risking my health, leaching off me but you couldn’t summon the courage to just leave? Then it was “It was just a big Fuck You to you” because you didn’t respect me. (has a whole lot of respect from a whole lot of people now- NOT) Yes none of them make sense except the “He sucks” reason.

    • IDB,
      I also got a different response each time I asked;

      “You were too independent I couldn’t do anything for you”- This was the guy who was too idle to even take a coffee cup into the kitchen !
      “I didn’t get enough affection” – This was the guy who pushed me away when I tried to cuddle up in bed and wouldn’t sit next to me on the couch and watch TV. ! ( He sat in another chair)
      “She (slutbag) looks after herself” WTF does that even mean?
      “You got too ‘Womans Libbish'” – seems he didn’t like me standing up for myself and wanting an equal distribution of household tasks (I worked f/t as well as he did)

      I came to the conclusion that his head was full of broken biscuits and slutbag was welcome to him.

      Years later, I asked one of his friends why it took him 5 years to marry slutpants after we got divorced. (And then only when she got pregnant)
      I was told “Oh, he wasn’t sure and he says he didn’t want to make another mistake.” Whaaaaat?!
      I wonder at what stage in our 8 year marriage he decided that he had made a mistake, and why he never conveyed that information to me ?!.

      I agree that none of this makes sense, except to confirm that these people are mentally one sandwich short of a picnic.

      • Jane,

        “His head is full of broken biscuits” just slayed me. I laughed so hard because it is so eerily accurate. Broken cookies for brains! Just take the most childish item that is non-sustaining but only a junk treat and then consider that it is not even whole and coherent but crumbled, disorganized, and shredded to dust in places. What a perfect metaphor for cheaters petulant, childish, disordered thinking and behavior.

      • Jane – this guy sounds hopeless. It’s like a textbook insecure narcissist who needs to feel more important than the woman he’s with but also wants a mommy-wife to take care of him. He’ll never find someone to fill that bottomless pit of emptiness.. you just do you 🙂

        • You got that right Armchair!
          Well, he finally married slut-bag (when she got pregnant). So now she has the joy of running around picking up after him, while he sits on his (now) fat arse waiting for his meal to be put on the table.

          She finally “got her man”, but, oh boy, what a catch (sarcasm)

          I bet when he was whisking her off to hotels for dirty weekends (on my money) wining & dining her and telling her what a wonderful relationship they had, she never envisaged real life with him would be like it is now. LOL !

          • Jane our ex’s sound eerily similar. I always said my ex was ‘high maintenance’. He was very emotionally needy. He expected me to drop everything at once to answer my phone no matter where I was, even at work. If I wanted to talk about anything in my life, I knew I would have to beg him to listen and he would only give me less than 5 minutes of genuine conversation. He would talk endlessly about everything wrong in his life. It was exhausting to listen to and I started to mentally roll my eyes. About a year before my Dday #2, it really hit me I was getting nothing but a paycheck and demanding husband/father for my kids out of this. I actual started thinking if he was gone, my life would actually be easier. I just needed to figure out the financials of this (I support my mom). I think in that last year, I started changing and would call him out on his bullshit. Once we were at a restaraunt for a celebration and he ordered an appetizer he knew I wouldn’t eat. I requested another kind and he gave me grief that we didn’t need all that food (we made about $300,000 combined salary). I told him ‘as long as you’re good, you’re happy. Never mind about everybody else’. He was fuming at me. He would frequently call me a ‘martyr’.

            The funny thing is, I would have people telling me I was a saint for being married to him. They would be laughing and joking about it, but I think there was definitely a hint of truth to it. I think anyone that peeled below that initial layer saw it. He was the life of the party and mister personality if he wanted to be. If he didn’t, he would be absolutely miserable and sulking the entire time. I learned to not ask him to go to my stuff.

            When I found out about young schmoopie for my Dday #2, I initally thought she’s a lucky, lucky girl!!!

    • I asked many times too. Always different answers. I got the classic,’I love you, but I’m not in love with you.’ That was my favorite! Cheater also said him and OW had an emotional connection and she understood him and I put our 10 month old first and seemed to interested in our child.
      My closure, he is a complete sink hole of a person. He cheated because he could.

  • Once I realized you don’t have to “catch” them with their dick in a whore, that is all the closure I needed. Sneaking, lying, treating you like shit, that’s all you really need to know, IMO.

    • I too realized this. I had to finally ask myself… does catching him with his dick in a whore change any of the horrendous behavior, abuse, neglect, mind games, stealing, lying, and repeated death threats? umm… hmm… no. This man doesn’t put energy into anything in life unless he gets money or results out of it. So I concluded no one treats their wife this way unless the dick is in the whores or they are in the process of getting to that goal. I do have all the evidence in the world except catching him in the act. After I confronted him on Dday2 he said “life’s too short” the rest of the sentence is implied. But was clear to me “life’s too short to waste his time on me when its better spent collecting whores”. I asked why more times than I want to admit. All the answers damaged me worse than I already am. I wish I never asked why.

  • By asking Why to these people is to project your own values on them. It’s hard to stop doing that. It’s hard to realize these things are not like emotionally healthy people. They will spout a bullshit excuse, “I thought you didn’t love ME!!” ( and so I have been a serial whore for decades…) AND trust me, they will also change the narrative about your relationship history.

    To ask them why opens you up to further abuse from these turds.

    • ANC – You nailed it. Asking why is trying to get them to see what they have done. You are trying to get them to understand what you know…that these actions and choices are damaging to relationships, hurtful beyond measure, and just plain wrong. We see it and we desparately want them to see it. Problem is this line of thinking assumes they they have character and a moral compass inside somewhere.

  • Today is my four year anniversary after being together six. I filed for divorce one week ago after probably my 7th or 8th D-day of finding texts, pics of women from Craigslist, dating website apps blah blah blah. The first D-day was three months after our wedding when I caught him on the phone with a woman turns out they were texting/calling each other 200 times a day. Thanks to CL, CL book, and CN I said fuck the why, bottom line I don’t deserve this shit. I used to drive myself crazy trying to figure it out, fix him, feel sorry for him, and all it got me was depressed and isolated from friends and family. The why I came up with is they are all selfish fuckwits that only think about themselves. Listen up CN YOU DESERVE BETTER!!! Don’t give them anymore kibbles come here if you have questions we will help each other. Remember Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

    • Good for you! On your anniversary, I am wishing you many happier years ahead. Let us know when the divorce is final so we can throw confetti for you.

      • Thank you Eilonwy he texted me “for what it’s worth happy anniversary love you” sayonara sad sausage no more kibbles for you… ????

    • YES this! Fuck their bullshit vomit of why. I need a time machine to go back and not meet him.

  • I got the a bunch of excuses including I didn’t feel wanted by you for 2 years, since our son was 6 months old. Bearing in mind I was 18 weeks pregnant when he said this, with a baby that he very much encouraged me to try for. It really amazes me how delusional these cheaters are.

    • Ugh, disgusting assmaggot. I’m sorry for you. I got the same thing but in reverse. She didn’t feel attractive during and after pregnancy. I gave her space but always let her know I still found her attractive and wanted her. No problems there.

      But hey, she didn’t want it and the rejections eventually took their toll on me a bit. I couldn’t always react calmly to her rejections anymore. And that was taken into her mind as being selfish of me.

      Eventually not long after birth she had oral sex with best friend (preschool) of me one night (at least that’s all I ever got out of her on that), hid this fact for over a year and finally couldn’t take it any longer, because yeah, we were drifting apart.

      The rejections had gotten milder and less in between this and dday #1 but afterwards it felt like something had always been off and I’m guessing some sort of guilt was the reason why. Secrets suck.

    • This reminds me of when I first suspected my husband of cheating. I knew he had a crush on his co-worker, because he’d randomly bring her up in conversation. We went to Seattle for a holiday “stay-cation” during winter of 2015. We brought along our 18 month old to enjoy the festivities as a family.
      One night, he went to the hotel pub for a beer and returned 5 hours later. He gave me some BS story about walking through town, and meeting some new friends.
      If Being MIA for five hours didn’t convince me something wasn’t right, his lack of sexual attention was a huge red flag. Having hotel sex was his favorite activity, but this trip he had zero interest in getting it on.
      Less than a week later, I found out I was pregnant. He seemed excited about the pregnancy, I, not so much. But we went ahead and continued the pregnancy and he left me two months later. (I think I was also about 18 weeks).
      If anything good came of this fuckery, it’s my absolutely perfect baby girl. She’s almost a year old now and every day I am so thankful for her and my three year old son.
      Honestly, I’m glad he waited to leave us. If he had left us sooner, I probably wouldn’t have gone through with the pregnancy, (if the stress alone didn’t cause a miscarriage).
      I would never have met my baby girl who has blessed the universe with her presence. She is undoubtedly special, and her beauty has renewed my faith in a higher power.
      With her birth, the universe exclaimed; “here is this amazing child, and through her, you will find your strength”.
      Let’s hope I don’t fuck it up.

      • I’m happy you have two beautiful children and are the sane parent for them. I wish I hadn’t taken the asshat back when he left for Schmoopie #1 when our kids were 2 and 4 y.o. We would all be better off now. If it hadn’t been this schmoopie, it would have been another. Same for your asshat. Nothing special about his crush.

        When I was pregnant with our first child, my doctor had his high school daughter spending the summer observing his practice. My asshat couldn’t be bothered going to most of my appointments. He showed up for my ultrasound as they thought our son was breech. Brandi had come in to chat with me and see how I was doing. My 32 y.o. husband (whose a physician btw) looked at me after she left the room and sheepishly asked me ‘That Brandi is so sweet. Why do you think she’s not married yet?’. I responded “ummm, probably because she’s all but 16 y.o.’ My alarm bells were ringing loud, but it would take me many more years to trust that he sucked.

        • Oh gross! Why do they have to sexualize everything! Beware of that physician wanting to become a “mentor” one day.

  • When I was new to CL I read this post. It was like being hit by lightning. Power. They cheated because it makes them feel powerful. Then I was able to place my ex’s behavior into the lexicon of entitlement that narcissists feel makes them special. My ex is not special, he’s not unique. He is a narcissist. That can’t be changed. I have uttered less than 10 words to him in the last two and a half years. He’s not worth my time or emotional real estate.

  • It’s all so sad for us chumps…

    After long marriage, I tearfully asked him “Why
    did you do this “. His response was …
    “You nagged – I wouldn’t have fallen out of love
    with you if you didn’t “.

    Never had closure after almost 2 years divorced.
    Don’t even want it anymore. He & whore are supposedly happy traveling the world, happy, in love.

    Just want to stop thinking of them & be somewhat happy myself. Still hurts a lot.

    • I am so sorry that you are still experiencing such pain. It really does take a long time to heal after a long term marriage. I wasn’t even close to okay after two years; I was still so damn angry! And I was mourning the dreams we had of retiring and doing all the things we had put off to raise a family. But, as cliched as it sounds, time does help.

      Will I ever be who I was before X cheated? No, I will always wear the scars of what he did to me. I now accept the scars as who I am. I view them as my battle scars, proof that I survived what I thought was unsurvivable. That is enough to make me proud of who I am today.

      The other thing time has given me is an understanding that the bed of roses cheaters want to pretend they fell into is actually (usually) a bed of thorns. Cheaters take themselves with them when they leave. While your X may be pretending to be “so happy”, he still is the miserable human being he was when he was married to you. As I like to tell my kids,”No matter where you go, there you are.”

      It is okay to grieve, it is okay to be sad. That is part of how we humans process loss. The important thing, though, is to treat yourself kindly, to do all the things you never could because you were putting everyone else’s needs and wants before your own. Give yourself permission to “drink milk straight from the carton.”

      What helped me heal more than anything was doing precisely that. Find a tumbled down beach shack and make it my own? Check. Travel to funky cities X always hated? Check. Create beautiful gardens from seed, with my own sweat? Check. Sleep late when I am not working? Check. Control the fucking remote? Check and double check. Eat cereal for dinner over the sink? Tastes better than a gourmet meal! Not all days are good, but all days are mine… and that is something no one will ever take from me again.

        • Wow beautiful. Thank you so much. Time to be me again!

          I loved your ‘no matter where you go, there you are’. I’m keeping that one, hope you don’t mind ?

          • And you stbxw will always be someone blowing your friend because it makes her feel super special. I would much rather be you in all this than her. You can fix yourself, heal, fix your picker, move on to a healthy new you, be the sane parent for your kids. She will always be lowly her–on her knees blowing someone for attention and kibbles. You can eventually feel sorry for her, but there’s nothing to work with there as you will never ‘fix’ her.

            • Yes, this so much. Thank you for just stating what my emotional self sometimes just loses in all the fog that keeps coming back. Wonderful to hear this.

              She can only fix herself. I tried, but hey, that’s what chumps do, that’s what decent good people do.


      • Violet,

        Thank you for the clarity I try to see everyday. One has to experience the discard , humiliation & the pain of trying to stop loving the cruel ex.

        Your words are so true… knowing other women (men) that have gone thru this is comforting. We’re not alone.

        I have to stay strong & hope one day I’ll be past the one of the worst experiences of my life.

        Hugs to you…

      • Thanks for you beautiful words, Violet.
        I love that you found your shack on the beach. I love eating cereal for dinner too?
        Sometimes over ice cream ?

      • Violet, a beautiful and inspiring response. “Give yourself permission to drink milk straight from the carton”: exactly!!! Love it. I felt relief in my soul just reading this.
        I didn’t realize how much I was walking on eggshells. I am always checking my phone, making sure I did not miss a call from him or there would be hell to pay later on. Or maybe not this time. But being locked in fear, always, always waiting for the other shoe to drop. This is no way to live.
        I want to find my own beach shack, plant my own garden!
        “Not all days are good, but they are all mine”. . . Priceless.

    • “You nagged – I wouldn’t have fallen out of love
      with you if you didn’t “. You know he is lying, right? He did because he is a jerk, an asshole who had no respect for his family neither valued what you had together. It has nothing to do with you. And don’t start me on the nagging thing, they know so well because wives have to resort to nagging. The time I did not nag guess what happened? He ignored the leaking in the bathroom until the water leaked to the apartment below us and we had to pay to fix two bathrooms instead of one, our and the neighbors . He would not fix anything if not for awful me nagging. He is very handy, can fix and solve just about anything in a house, very very talented. But his heart was not at home. It was just an act.
      Please dear, do not let that lie or any of his lies into your heart, ok? Promise?

  • I asked why on dday. He told me “Our marriage was over anyway.” Of course this was a hot news flash to me since we were still saying ” I love you”, still having sex and still doing couple like things like taking vacations. One was less than a month prior to dday.

    Not a hell of a lot of closure in that remark until I demonstrated how a marriage becomes truly over….I like to call it divorce! There is your closure!!

  • Ah yes.That elusive closure thing.Narcissistic sociopaths don’t want to give you closure so that you remain hooked and constantly chasing after answers that never come.
    I put my head in that closure blender so many times,for way too long.It prolonged the pain and handed him the power,which he got a high from.I mistakenly thought that if I got reasons,answers,it would ameliorate the suffering.It caused more and he blameshifted his behaviours on to me.Looking for closure is a form of pain shopping I wish I had never done.Similar to the whole let’s be friends thing,it just multiplies the pain.

    • Amen DeeDee! I think the thing that slows a lot of us victims down initially is we don’t know what a “narcissistic sociopath” is. When we finally stumble upon it, and read and learn, it’s a huge epiphany. BOOM there is your abusers personality in a nutshell. Then you come to CN and read similar stories. Their playbook never changes. I’m in a state of meh, but what still breaks my heart is reading other stories about the shitty times of life when the victims are discarded. (Which is of course from the narcs playbook). Pregnant and raising a disabled toddler? Moved to another state and have no friends or family? Support them thru a health scare (but they still had time to cheat?) The final move of the narcs game is to leave you at an inopportune moment. Put that knife in and twist it.

      • Omg this is so true!! He dumped me at home after surgery to go to the footy club. I was out of it. Months later I got a bill from the hospital for painkillers and anti-inflammatory I had never been given. I found them on top of the fridge. He went out when I had a miscarriage. When I told him I was pregnant with our second child he told me I had ruined his life because he would have to get a job instead of leaching off me and pretending to study. He was never there for me but I made excuses. I cared for him during knee surgery and supported him for years through back injury. He couldn’t work but was on Craigslist able to have sex on backs of cars. Btw we still had a sex life after 19years together but one of his reasons was there are weeks you don’t touch me!! Weeks!! There were sexual harrassment claims too that I was able to whitewash as they don’t know him like I do he just has poor social skills. In a way it’s like a veil has been lifted and you get to see them for the true monsters they are.

      • My ex left me with three children alone in a new city we were meant to move to together. I moved first,he was meant to come a bit later but never turned up,I was wondering why til I paid him a surprise visit in our old home city and found him in bed with someone. I had to remake my life and deal with a traumatised family with not a single friend living anywhere within 150miles. He picked the most vulnerable time to leave me.

      • This is so true …playbook indeed. I truely thought he must have had some type of brain injury until i realised that rewriting history and getting time lines all mixed up is part of the act. I am told it helps them resolve what a great guy they are in their own heads while avoiding everyone elses reality. It also helps when the narc parents in laws go along with this delusion.

  • He said, “I want to be with someone who is more like me”.

    So, Asshat, it took you 40 YEARS to figure that out?!?!

    • Yes, 40 years, that’s what I have. 39 married. I am currently pain shopping, can not help it. Will try to stop. A work in progress. The Hopium I smoke is that if I can find the missing piece of info then I will fully understand and maybe he will get the help he needs. Almost 7 mos. since D’day. and the pain is increasing. D in progress. Turning 61 today, this really sucks.

      • He won’t get the help he needs because he can’t admit he has a problem. I had the same issue with STBX. I tried to get him to see an IC for his sake. He said he was going to do it but never did. At one point he even tried to use it as bargaining chip to convince me to let him see Schmoopie while still living at home (discreetly of course). I am glad I didn’t make that bargain as he never would have followed through. Of course he still continued to see Schmooopie before he moved out anyway.

      • It is extremely painful and I’m sorry you are going through this. My first Dday I was trying to find that piece too. Now I know it was so I could fix it. If only he could see she’s not his dream girl and she’s bat shit crazy. If only he knew he was going through a midlife crisis and he will regret what he’s done.

        It is painful to think you’ve invested so much of your life with someone who just doesn’t give a shit about you. Well maybe they don’t want you to die, but they sure aren’t exerting any energy into helping you! It really is all about them. If they come back, it’s because of them-not you.

        I wish I had internalized this the first Dday. I hadn’t found CL & CN then. I remember reading how it gets better, but I was so deep in the pain I didn’t want to hear it. But it does get better. Cut bait and let that self centered, entitled ass go.

      • PS. Happy Birthday. I hope you have plans. If not, make some, even if it is with yourself. It may be hard to believe it now, but it will be happier for not having that jerk around to spoil it for you.

      • K FMY–Happy birthday. Your gift to yourself should be to distract yourself with fun & self-care, and keep thoughts of fuckwit at bay. No good answers will ever be found.

      • Nobody deserves that. Hugs to you on your birthday, lovely K FMY XXX My marriage was 23 years, and even then, I couldn’t believe he wasn’t the man I thought he was. That’s a major part of the grieving. Looking forward to hearing that you’re doing OK. XXX

    • And he will probably discover that being with someone just like him isn’t all that much fun after all. How many of these turds could handle the shit they dish out to others?

      • chumpinrecovery, you’re so right. My ex could dish it out – big time. Jokes, snarky humor, you name it. But turn the tables on him? He could NOT handle it. I hope that his whore is like him and she gives it to him big time. And I hope they are absolutely miserable together.

    • Mine said, “I feel like I’m in my 20’s again. And you can’t do that.” WTF? We are in our 50’s married 28 years. This was a month before DDay.

    • Interesting, wanting to “be with someone who is more like them.” Just who ARE they? They were one person when they agreed to be with you. Now they’re someone ELSE? It’s the whole narcissistic mirroring thing. They are huge empty holes. They have no SELF. They leech off of whoever they latch on to for validation, and in the process, suck their source dry. Then move on. NO, they don’t want to be with someone who is more like them, they BECOME someone who is more like the new supply. Took me a long time to understand this about fuckwit/loser, especially when I saw his current choice of “life partner.” A younger version of ‘coochie, coochie’ Charo. (He’s a musician, she’s a (loosely put) singer (as I was, also, when we met). But in every other respect, NOTHING like me, for sure! What a joke.

  • They cheat because they can. Plain & simple. The only explanation or anything remotely close to an apology I got was, “I did things that I’m not proud of.”

    Yeah, well, so did I…I married your sorry ass.

  • First step in real healing: Chump must accept (a) you cannot reason with the disordered, and (b) you will get neither logical nor fair answers from them.

    There are countless other things you can do with your emotional energy than seek answers from a cheater, all of which will be much more beneficial (including counting the average blades of grass in a square foot of your lawn).

    • Step 1 is recognizing that they are disordered. I was in denial over that one for a while. I had spent too many years spackling and telling myself that he was a rational, intelligent, sensitive individual. Even during his hyper irrational phase after DDay I wanted to tell myself it was just that “affair fog” clouding his judgement.

      • CiR,
        I went down that road as well, to my cost.
        Realising that he didn’t have a single logical thought in his head, and probably never had had, was a liberating moment for me.

      • Yeah I read about the affair fog initially and thought, he’s on a ho high! It’ll dissapate and he will realize what he’s done. But here’s the thing, even if you believe the ho high is real, he made the choice over and over to get to the high point. He has the ability to rationalize why he’s entitled to do this. He will continue to do this over and over.

      • The other piece is that most of these cheaters are masters at gaslighting. They can give an explanation or make a statement that has a shred of truth to it to make it seem plausible to you. They then repeat it until it seems real to you. It is how they keep us hanging on and controlling us. And you can’t see it until you stop communicating with them.

      • lol, SCaL. For all the time you’ve spent in court, you could have counted the blades of grass in a square foot of the yards of most of Chump Nation.

  • This is a good article for me. I am struggling with this. He says he didn’t feel loved. How could he not have felt loved? I let him buy the airplane, I let him quit is $200,000/yr job (and still keep the airplane), I got a job half way across the country so he could live where he wanted. I also kissed him good night every night no matter when he came to bed. I kissed him before I left for work (except when he refused because I was bundled up for winter and didn’t look feminine enough). I made love to him on a regular basis. I put him first in so many things. His family, our friends, and our former nanny could tell that I loved him how could he not have known? When I pressed him on it after DDay he gave different and contradictory answers every time. It makes no sense and I hate not being able to make sense of things. I now know that he did what he did because he is a selfish self-centered fuckwit who doesn’t know how to count his blessings or recognize a good thing when he has it.

    Part of my drive to find answers is just part of my personality. I am an analyst by nature. That’s my job. I analyze things and come up with solutions. This makes me want to analyze my relationship too. I find myself trying to psychoanalyze him and me and Schmoopie, all pointless other than looking at myself. I am also someone who makes mistakes frequently, but I always fix my mistakes and everything turns out not just good but exceptional in the end. This time, however, I couldn’t fix it because it wasn’t my mistake, it was his and he has no desire to fix it.

    • Dickwad would not kiss you because you were wearing a coat?? What a loonbait. I’ve heard it all now.

      • Im so sorry Chumpinrecovery. I feel your pain:( Same here. wouldn’t kiss me if I wasn’t wearing a skirt. if I had a bruise. if I had a little cover-up on over my bikini. if I wasn’t in a thong and heels when he got home. if I had the nerve to get in bed in the dead of winter with pajamas on. if I got a cold it was my fault for contracting it and I was punished for it. because apparently whores don’t wear pajamas, get bruises, get sick or relax for 5 seconds. I feel the same way… we run ourselves into the ground analyzing and in the end we can’t even fix it. it’s not our issue and it’s torture.

        • Thank goodness you are free of this! This is not you and it’s amazing you lived with this for any amount of time. I didn’t endure this, but I had a mixed emotion at Dday #2 of despair for how my family life would change and glee for having a reason to divorce him.

          • Thank you MJB♡. I filed for divorce 2 months ago after being tortured for 2.5 years. I have the same feelings of despair and also moments of relief. I’m sorry this happened to you and I totally understand finally having the breaking point to file.

            • So true I would never have divorced because of my children but after I caught him and took a picture because he was denying it after I found the bills I have a get out of jail free card! Still awful and my self esteem is at an all time low but at least there is not some jerk in my face feeding my issues! Hugs v

    • Wow, sorry for the cliché, but are you me?

      We need to let bygones be bygones. I find it hard but I think it’s the only way to move on.

    • Every since I was a child I would ask my Dad questions and he would give an answer, then I would follow that up with another question, another answer, another question and so on. I wanted to understand how things work, or explore even deeper into the meaning of things. I always was aware of this about my personality and I have probably annoyed many people with my follow ups of curiosity. So being a “why” person and after badgering my xh for explanations I realized he was only giving me excuses.

      For a few years, and even now, I catch myself contemplating the whys because I already know the how, what, when, where answers. My tiny bit of closure comes after I’ve worn myself out mentally and emotionally and just give in the fact that he if very fucked up. It’s the only conclusion to why that I end up settled on everytime I get on the merry-go-round of “WHY? WHY? WHY?”

    • My two year old has a tantrum when I can’t fix her wilted flower or untoast her bread.
      These guys are the same. Mourn the loss of the grown-up you thought he was. Stop projecting your (sane) thought processes onto him.
      Like my 2 year old, he just doesn’t have logic. Unlike my two year old, he’ll just never get it. It really is so fucking sad. But with acceptance comes unimaginable freedom and energy.
      Trust that he sucks and use your super brainpower on something that deserves it. Like you!

  • Mine said it was ‘because our marriage was dead’.
    ‘Why didn’t you tell me it was dead, then?’
    ‘Because I thought it might get better.’

    • I’ll try that the next time I attend the funeral of a friend or relative: “I’m so sorry for your loss, Mrs. Axlerod — but maybe he’ll get better.”

    • I got “you killed our love 10 years ago in Arizona because you were so unhappy”. I asked him what it was that I did that killed our love? He really didn’t have an answer except that somehow I had forced him to have our daughter, our 4th child, 9 years previous. So instead of actually defending me from his intrusive mother and helping with our four children so I could have a break occasionally, he cheated. My ex also expected me to read his mind and see how unhappy he was with me without actually using words. So he built a case against me in his mind for 10 years!!! I didn’t love him or appreciate him enough so he gave himself permission to go to swingers clubs, Asian massage parlors, online escorts, 900 number hook ups, and finally dating sites where he met his final affair partner now wifetress. All this while still “pretending” to be a husband and father and sucking at both. I knew he was selfish, but I spackled like crazy because I had made vows and had over 20 years and four children. I could kick myself that I played the “pick me dance” for over 2 years to try to win him back. He is the one who killed our love, as if he was even capable of love. Sociopath.

  • Letting go of the why has proven to be the hardest part! I understand he is not who I thought he was, and I didn’t want him back, I just wanted to know why.

    Part of that need is because of all the lying and deceit. Decent, normal people want to know the truth and deserve to know. Non-disordered people generally think things through and using sound reasoning so expecting a some sort logical answer that makes sense is normal.

    Most people are aware to some degree of their motivation for their actions. Cheaters seem completely oblivious. The stakes are high (losing your family, reputation, half your assets). You’d think they would be very clear on their reasons.

    I think they are cowards. And I trust that they suck.

    • Nwhi your words are so sensible and true and I know this. I just don’t understand the backsliding I do now and again when I start to think, maybe he is right. Maybe I am the crazy one. 29 years of gas lighting is hard to overcome!

      • Yes. Sometimes I still think that maybe he is the rational one for recognizing that we just weren’t right for each other and the marriage had to end. At one point he said “I just don’t think we can give each other what we want”. Sounds reasonable enough. Then I remember that he blew up our marriage in the most cruel, painful, selfish and cowardly way possible. Then I also remember that he made a play for the whole open marriage concept and I had to initiate the divorce in the end even though he was the one who thought we were incompatible.

        You are not the crazy one he is. If he weren’t crazy he would have found a way to either try to fix his marriage or end it in a more dignified manner.

  • When asked during one of my many WHYfests, he said “Well what was I supposed to do? You were gone so much?” I traveled about 3 days a week with our daughter for sports training…so I guess that was a hall pass?
    He also told me “That’s what happens when you don’t pay attention”.
    Then there’s my all time favorite, and the one that finally got through to me the he is BATSHIT CRAZY was “You know I don’t like short hair, so you cut your hair to make yourself unattractive to me to avoid having sex with me.” My hair is between chin and shoulder length, but even if it had been a pixie cut, you are seriously blaming your cheating on MY HAIR?!?
    Whatever, Douchebag…

    • He might as well have just said “I want my dolly!” Objectify much? Asshole.

      • This was actually said to me. One of his reasons of why… “you were my barbie doll and I loved you. you will never be what you once were. So I fucking gave up on you” We have been married 3.5 years. He cheated 1 year into our marriage. I swear i look exactly the same. he complains that men hit on me all day from gas stations to bars. but I’m disgusting? I just don’t understand.

        • There is no understanding them. They like to keep us in confusion. You are not a piece of plastic with boobs. He would only ever be happy with a Real Doll.

  • I asked something similar, “Why her?” His response? “She (Ho-worker)does what I tell her to.”

    Entitled much?

    • Yes, cheater x said it was “easy” with her, and she never questioned him.

    • The question that keeps going through my mind is “what is so special about her or so terrible about me that it was worth breaking up our family over it?” I haven’t gotten an answer because I haven’t bothered to ask him as I know he won’t answer.

      • You won’t get an answer, but, it’s actually really straightforward and easy: he did think it was worth destroying you and the kids…because you mean that LITTLE to him. It was the worst of the truths for me to grasp. He did not love us. He never really had.

      • That is an all consuming question, Chumpinrecovery. It’s all about the fantasy, the thrill of the chase. It never has to do with the chump. Once unmasked he blatantly revealed it was ALWAYS about the thrill of the chase. Additionally he WISHED he could do all the things with me he could do with her. His exact words. Well that’s great. She allows him the necessary growth I evidently stunted.

        He gets to go on vacations and rack up credit card debt.
        Buy a third unnecessary vehicle.
        Have sex on demand where ever or when ever.
        Abandon his family and work part time.

        First year out he’s lost a good percent of his business and telling me he thinks about me all the time. He gets hit with a huge tax bill and has to take out a three year loan.
        Second year he’s playing the victim blaming me for his lack of seeing his granddaughter and crying all the time. He loses his employee and now has to do all the work himself. He gets surgery and has health issues.
        Third year out his DREAM (scream) GIRL is given the ultimatum to get therapy for her inability to interact pretty much with anyone outside her home. They are evicted from the love shack dump.

        They lack basic life skills. There is nothing wonderful about either one of them. Even if they won the lottery they would still be disordered. What she has, is the asshole

      • I know what was so special about the OW and why her, she was ok with him seeking out others for Craig’s Lust 3 somes. She was more than willing to help Cheater find Bi-men to have sex with and she believed all his lies. From the emails I found between the 2 of them she was aware of his need for Gay sex, yet agreed that didn’t make him bi. She understood his need for hard core porn and even shared a few images and websites with him. She was in awe of him stroked his ego and put him first. With all that I see why he picked her and am glad he did!

      • It is nothing to do with you, they are making a deal with the devil. That never ends well.

    • “She doesn’t judge me, she gets me, she does everything I tell her to do, she’s the only good thing that happened to me the whole year, shes a good person who helps people, she appreciated and flattered me, agreed with everything I said, she orgasmed all the time, she swallowed and when I couldn’t get it up again, then she let me leave and was never needy. She’s long gone now, because I do not want to be with a liar and a cheater, and she was a horrific wife and mother, was not attractive, always wore the same clothes, was crass and unprofessional and not respected and we lost clients because of her.”

      I guess god doesn’t give with both hands.

    • My cheater XH said, “If it hadn’t been her, it would have been someone else.” Now he’s married to her. HAHAHAHAH GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. They deserve each other.

      • Oh Christ on a cracker. My cheater said the same thing. Fact is, any wet hole holding a mirror up to him whilst covering her own face was a potential affair partner. But definitely not long term. I think he’s realized regretfully that married people who sleep around make lousy partners. Call Mensa.

        • Yeah i learned to my cost that when he used to say “every holes a goal” …. it was not in jest . Sob probably thought he was being clever and telling me what he was really like. Pervert

  • 48H post-DDay #1 – His reasons?
    “I didn’t tell you because it did not feel real, she does not live here.”
    “I didn’t tell you, I knew you would be mad.”
    “You worked too much.”
    “I can compartmentalize in a way you can’t understand.”
    “We need to go to therapy.” He’s been calling therapists charlatans for as long as I’ve known him.

    In the same conversation, he proceeded to try and tell me that yes, he sent a no contact email to his mistress. Yes, she replied, but no, he could not forward me these emails because he “erased the account… and can’t do anything to retrieve it” It was gmail, which had a restore function a call and less than $10 away, that was too hard for him (he has a PhD in computer science)…

    I started calling lawyers that day. So glad I removed my head from that blender…

    CL is spot on: Seeking answers to “The why” question only inflict more pain… Stick with the facts of “what” your cheater did, it is already painful enough, and at least these you can use these facts in court to untangle yourself from your cheater…

    • “I can compartmentalize in a way you can’t understand.”

      Somebody out there in Narcville is getting a whole lot of mileage by originating this bit of mindfuckery. KK said this to me constantly, as if it were a superpower recently bestowed upon her by uncovering a lost magical amulet deep in the woods somewhere.

      Actual words to me: “See, this is why you need to start to do some serious work on yourself. I can separate aspects of my life so that they do not impact each other. You can’t seem to be able to do that.”

      • Normal people shouldn’t be able to do that. Only the villains have that “super power”.

      • I was told the same. with the addition of “that was the bad me yesterday… this is the good me now that you’re talking to”. FML. In my opinion I think it’s less of a superpower and more of a sociopath. it’s so beyond my comprehension I have trouble even telling anyone.

      • Oh wow. Yes, this is also something that she mentions from time to time. I can seperate actual love from sex. It’s not intertwined for me.

        I know for myself I’m not capable of this really. It’s like:

        When all is good, sex means 10% of the total to me, when shit gets bad it can make up for 90% of the total.

        I guess in a cheaters point of view sex with other people can make up for 90% of their misery when they feel bad about themselves. And sex with their husband/wife can make up for 10% of their misery… Never mind, my brain is going wobbly hahaha.

      • I know right, the “compartimentalization” argument only goes to show how disordered the cheater is, if you need different compartments to live your life, then you should definitely see a psychologist to get treated for your dissociative personality disorder.

        I’m NC/grey rock (thanks shared custody), and if I were to break NC, my reply would be along the lines of “please clarify which part of our divorce decree does not convey my comprehensive desire to get you the fuck of my life… It’ll be my pleasure to pay the legal fees involved in rectifying this oversight promptly.”

    • My STBX has been saying that counseling and therapy is a waste of time for YEARS! Guess what his latest OW is? A mental health counselor specializing in marriage and family therapy. Sometimes, I have to laugh out loud at the ridiculousness that is him.

      • Wow she’s the super special snowflake that can fix him!!! Good luck with that. Not enough gorilla glue in the world to put a cheaty humpty dumpty back together.

      • GetMeFree, I know, only CN gets that none of us can make this shit up! Keep forging on, distance yourself for their future faking as much as you can!


    • Chumptitude, I got the “I have compartments” too. What? Now I realize there was only one compartment. I was in it, but as CL wisely says, he just Did. Not. Care. And CL statement that I love: “I don’t care what flavor of fucked up it is, get away from it!” We are mighty!!

  • I am convinced they cheat just because they want to. They come up with their reasons later.

    • B I N G O, nodancing.

      The truthful answer to WHY???? WHY???? WHY??? : ( !

      “Because, I WANTED to.”

      End of stories…literally.

  • Even when I was in the “we can work on this” phase, I found myself only asking questions to a point — part of me knew I didn’t want to know all of the gory details/it ultimately didn’t matter. When it finally fell apart for me and I realized the marriage needed to end, toward the beginning of the months following (where we were both stuck in the house until it sold and we could move to our respective apartments) I was spouting angry questions like it was some sort of vomiting. Oddly, even though the answers either never came or were weak as fuck, it felt good just to get that out of my system. Curious minds want to know, and broken hearts need a reason. Eventually, knowing there was no reason (or just digging-into-the-past, sad sausage excuses) was the answer — the lack of reason was the reason! They are unreasonable and morally deficient human beings. Even if was for self-soothing or validation purposes (some combination of which seems to have been X’s end game), there are plenty of healthier ways to do this — ways that won’t tear down someone else’s life. They do it because they can, and damn the consequences or collateral damage. We’ll never get anything close to acceptable in terms of an explanation.

  • I also think cheaters tend to be of the short-term thinking variety.

      • TOTALLY. My ex told me the other day (he came over to get his crap out of my garage and only took a small portion of it so it’s STILL THERE), “I don’t think. I just do.” Well, obviously, douchebag! He’s not thinking of how he’s going to take care of the whore’s three kids when they move in together next month, (ironically, July 1 is our wedding anniversary), not thinking of how he’s using her for money (he’s still unemployed after getting fired), not thinking of the long term consequences of ANY of this. I don’t think he’s planning on staying with the whore very long, either. It’s what he needs RIGHT NOW and he will do whatever it takes to fulfill that need – including destroying innocent kids’ lives and messing with the whore (though as she is the one who initiated this whole thing I do not care what happens to her). Normal, non-disordered people do NOT do this.

        He’s a narcissist. The signs and behavior were there through our entire marriage and I did not KNOW he was a narcissist until my marriage blew up in my face. Now I know and I’m so damn glad I’m out of it.

        • There were signs here too — not putting thought into something before he did it (not always, but often), how his other important past relationship went (cheating on each other when distance became a factor), the fact that before he met me on Match, he was somewhat using it as a hook up tool (there’s that instant gratification crap). Ugh. They “tell” us, but at the time we’re not listening.

          • Yep. We’re too busy spackling! And boy, did I ever spackle. I made every excuse in the book for his bad behavior toward my family, toward my friends, toward ME. “Oh, he’s got PTSD, oh, he had an abusive childhood, oh, we weren’t raised the same way and you can’t expect him to be like us,” and on and on and ON. When you have to explain to someone how to act like an ADULT and what constitutes good manners, it doesn’t matter what the hell you went through. Those are basic things. And my ex-douchebag didn’t have them. No wonder I got sick. No wonder I was withdrawing from my friends and family. I was in a cycle of abuse and didn’t even know it.

    • This threw me off for years, as my ex was a long-term thinker in many ways, especially as related to his career. Had a Ph.D. when I met him, later got an MBA, was constantly getting new certifications and looking to do new things and grow in his job. He was good about the long-term with money as well, had savings when I met him, we paid off my student loan debt as fast as possible, bought a house, were paying the mortgage as fast as possible ….

      So he’s CAPABLE of long-term thinking and decision making. But when it comes to getting kibbles, he’s all short term, all the time. When it comes to how he treats the people he supposedly cares about, it’s the short term pleasure of criticism and complaints over the long-term well-being of the relationship. And when it comes to his dick and infatuation, he’s short-term all the way.

      I think it’s all about the entitlement. With work and finances, he knew there were things he had to do, to come out well in the long-term. With his relationships with other human beings? NAH! Everyone owes him kibbles, all the time, and lots of them. And he should never have to even think for a tiny moment about consequences, because he can do what he wants, when he wants, and later he will do what he wants when he wants, and after that, everything will be the way he wants. Because that’s what he wants.

      And SOOOOOO resentful and angry and bitter if there are consequences to his choices. All someone else’s fault, of course, always.

      • KarenE, my X is of the same variety — capable of long-term thought but short-term on all these “kibbles” of instant gratification pertaining to what amounts to his dick. It’s confusing as hell when you’re talking about someone who otherwise seems to have all of their values in line with yours (why we marry them) and seem like they should “know better” when it comes to things like this. Or just understanding the basics of cause and effect. GAAH!

  • The idiot said “it just happened.” Move along folks, nothing here to see!

    • My said “I’m sorry.,” even wrote it on my blackboard in the kitchen. (filing nails) Yep, now all is forgiven. (eye roll)

    • Oh yes, ‘it just happened’ . God I seem to have gotten the whole dictionary. Spread out over the time of a year to keep me going in circles. That one was dday#2.

  • Yes at first I wanted to know why. The why was because I ignored her cries for help and desires for more from me.
    Next! Reality it turns out is….. she never has gotten over her one true love. I was her way out of a bad home life 20!years prior. Yes, I was used for many a year! When her true love banged her he then dumped her. She then used a 26 year old to boost her bruised ego. Point is, she did it because she could/wanted to. Kids were basically raised and it was her time to go back to what she believed she wanted and missed out on! I was irrelevant I was in the way. One finds out it really has nothing to do with you. They never really cared about us. We never meant anything to them. Hence the ease of them stepping out and cheating! Hard pill to swallow understanding you have been played (25 years) your whole marriage. I actually believe the sayings out there. “If you truly love someone you could never cheat on them”. They do not love you. Never have and never will!

    • “it was her time to go back to what she believed she wanted and missed out on! I was irrelevant I was in the way”

      I got this from mine just before our youngest graduated. Hard pill oh yes (35 years).

      It causes me great pain to consider that she never loved me but maybe meh will be acceptance of that.

      • Very painful to find out the truth. I was used till I was no longer useful! In a way it is funny what I got dumped for. Her first love is a drug/alcohol abuser. Makes very little money. Huge narcissistic person. He got what he wanted then pushed her to the side. Then she picks up a short 5’6 inch chubby. He said the right things and was young! He is gone also. So as one might suspect she wants me back…… so in love with me again. They do suck!

        • Tell her to go rent a barstool. She’ll be able to find a few takers there.

  • I’m sorry if this is repeating some of the reasons laid out in other posts, but it seems to me that we’re all repeating reasons in all of the posts. But here goes:

    1. It was easy.
    2. GG didn’t have a life outside of the kids.
    3. She was nice to me.
    4. I didn’t feel needed. You did everything.
    5. I wanted something different.

    My responses:

    1. I’m sure she was.
    2. When one partner takes on the responsibility for all of the childcare because the other partner just doesn’t, I guess, yes. I shouldn’t sleep, I guess.
    3. Does this apply to servers and checkout personnel as well? How about the mailman and our 80 year old neighbor!
    4. Yes. I did. Not any more. Never again.
    5. I think this is the only honest thing I’ve heard in years.

    Trust that they suck! ?

    • I don’t understand this not feeling needed BS. Jump in and do something! I had no problem actively participating in my own life. Then it becomes “you do everything”. Well, someone had to…

      • My life summed up right there. I held down the fort and did all the heavy lifting. This is his second dumsel, I mean damsel, in distress. He loves riding in on the white horse and saving them. Then he realizes what he’s stuck with and wants the heavy lifter back. Again someone had to be the adult, and it was me. Dinner and drinks on the marital dime with Schmoopie, $150. Divorce, $10,000. Meh, priceless.

        • Bingo. Appearances and no substance. They have to outsource that tricky substance stuff to spouse appliance.

    • Forgot to add:

      6. I thought it’d be fun!
      7. I didn’t think I’d get caught.


  • I don’t think you ever get closure with disordered people. Doesn’t matter whether they are your narc parents, jealous sibling or your cheating ex. They are never going to answer the why question with any integrity because they don’t have much/any. Also if they are entitled enough to do the cheating in the first place and somehow justify that in their warped minds, along with all the lying that is required to try and keep it secret, then they clearly didn’t think much of you (because they are fuck-ups, not because us chumps are not worthy), so why on earth would they suddenly decide after having been found out that they are going to have a change of personality and show genuine remorse and behave in a decent and truthfully loving way.

    The only person at the forefront of a cheater’s mind is themselves and they are going to do anything they can to feel good about themselves, which usually involves walking rough-shod all over the chump. The best response to this, wherever possible is to move on & ignore as much as possible and live with dignity. I would love to say that I always lived by those words but I’ve lost my shit as much as anyone else over the last 14 years – but that’s what I’m aiming for. If you haven’t watched “Love Is All You Need”, a Danish movie, oddly staring Pierce Brosnan, it is superb and the lead female character is all dignity in the face of a character we’d all recognise.

  • I thought I needed to know… Why.

    I thought I needed to know … How could you do that to us.

    I thought I needed to know … Are you insane? Do I need to commit you?

    I thought, I thought, I thought.

    But everytime I tried to get him to talk, I got the shark eyes, the blank stare and if I
    persisted, the cold walk away or lies that he thought I wanted to hear.

    Eventually, I went with the Tupac thing…”You can spend minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months over-analyzing a situation, trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could’ve, would’ve happened… or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the fuck on.”
    ~ Tupac Shakur

    Yep. I left that shit on the floor and moved the fuck on.

  • The manipulation runs so deep and I just had to do some untangling once I knew he was a covert narcissist. It wasn’t so much about the ‘why’ as seeing him unmasked pretty much summed it up neatly. It was the ‘how’ that consumed me for over a year. I thought of it a s deprogramming to detach once I maintained no contact.

    He made me believe I had the power and control in the relationship. I never did.
    He tallied up all my inadequacies and knew my vulnerabilities.
    When I was the most vulnerable and needed his support the most, he cheated.
    If I met my own needs he sabotaged the outcome regardless of what I accomplished.
    He took joy in my pain and I never knew there was such evil.

    • These are all so insightful. They were at play in my marriage too.

    • Yes! My ex acted like I had a ton of power and control in the relationship too, especially in front of other people. He never consulted me on anything and if he made plans or arrangements that were inconvenient for me–tough. I just had to shuffle everything around and make it work. However, when we were out with other people he’d do shit like make it seem like he had to ask my permission! For example:

      Guy friend: You want to go fishing Saturday?
      Ex: (looking uncomfortably) Can I? (Does not wait 1 second for an answer and then shakes his head sadly) I guess that’s a “No” Guy friend.

      I’d be so stunned and embarrassed I couldn’t say anything, or, if I tried to say it was fine he’d laugh nervously and say something like “No. I know what you really think.” It took me years to realize he was actively trying to paint a portrait of me as controlling bitch. It was all part of his narrative he set up, I believe, in case he ever got caught.

      • Mine would always tell people we were happy in our marriage because he always did what he was told. I never had an answer because I could never think of one that would not sound like I was contradicting him and a good wife shouldn’t do that in front of other people.

      • This is exactly the script! ! We would be at a bbq with friends and he would make a huge deal about who was driving/drinking even though we’d already discussed it on the way. Then depending on what suited..he would act like he was pleading me so he could drink just this one time …or play the martyr and make a sad sausage face that he would drive AGAIN…. i used to think nothing of it until it dawned on me 18 months after he ran off with new victim that it was a carefully crafted public persona to make me look like the controller in the relationship and an alcoholic into the bargin. Happy ending for sad sausage that he was finally free of a bad marriage. Shocking but they have to come out like the good guy or the victim . Blame?? …never

    • Yes! He basically allowed me to steer a ship I didn’t realize was rotting and falling apart — houses, moves, a child. I don’t know if it’s some sick “haha, I win” shit or if they are trying to hop onto the fantasy that they can have everything regardless of the hurtful and undermining things they do.

      • Steering the ship (doing the heavy lifting) good point. And with that comes being accountable for everything that goes wrong. Asshole agreed to everything; it was all a performance. His happiness was something I had to strive for and all I ever heard were complaints or excuses why he couldn’t do the things that brought me joy. Soul sucking fucker who had such high standards. Nothing was good enough for him; he deserved more.

        Dumping him was a great equalizer. We both get to live the life we deserve. And boy oh boy does he deserve everything he got when I filed.

  • I got these answers all in one fell swoop:
    “It was just a game…I wanted to see what I could get away with” and

    “The women were inconsequential to me”— (which of course extrapolated to **I** was inconsequential too considering he was willing to do what he did).

    Considering he was a cheater his entire life—teen years onward, every woman in succession—-who knows if these answers were the truth. It matters not to me NOW but it sure hurt like hell to hear them THEN.

    What helped me more than anything was to become indifferent to his indifference.

  • For me that question opened up a door to a million rounds of blame shifting, gas lighting, and character assasinations that truly messed me up for over a year. “Maybe I never loved you…you’ve never met my needs…I assumed you had cheated with your boss on business trips…we’re not compatible…I like women younger than you…it wasnt an affair and I wasn’t gonna go through with it…you’re never gonna let me forget this and that’s cruel…I was protecting you from the details…” and on and on. But I only had to suffer through this nonsense because I asked the question:how could you??

    His responses still ring in my head, though I now trust that he sucks. I was such a naive chump because I didn’t realize people who you trusted so much could betray you so bad and then be so cruel. As the dust is now settling and we head toward divorce, I have to think of these things to propel me forward so I don’t backslide into believing things can be saved.

    The good news is progress is small but present. Today is our 15th anniversary and I had forgotten all about it (until my aunt emailed a happy anniversary message–I’ve not gone public with our divorce, waiting for a tentative settlement and to tell our daughter). A little nod toward meh.

  • There is no such thing as closure, until we can truly accept that they suck. That’s because closure implies understanding what happened, making sense of it. And what these cheater narcs do makes NO SENSE. Not only for the well-being of partners and children they said they loved, but also for their own self-interest!

    But asking my ex some questions and really listening to his answers did help me. About 6 months post-DDay #2 and my kicking him out, he came around to hoover. This made him more amenable to talking to me, the person who had always had a sympathetic ear and some good advice to provide him. He did it again another year after that, after fucking up his relationship with our kids. I’d always helped manage that relationship, right?

    The difference was, this time, unlike the previous 14 years, I stopped trying to explain how to be a human being, and an adult, to him. I stopped trying to convince him that what we had had VALUE. I stopped trying to explain how he had impacted the kids and I, not only w/his two affairs and abandonment, but also with his years of moody critical meanness. I stopped trying to explain how he could be happier, if he just made the tiniest efforts, and how he could have better relationships.

    This time, I listened, I really listened.

    And what I heard horrified me! This guy was not only not the man I thought he was. He wasn’t even the man I thought he was once I figured out that he wasn’t the man I thought he was!

    This was a completely totally entirely self-centered, whiny, completely irresponsible, unbelievably entitled,“““` damned stupid, toddler. In the body of a tall, good-looking, smart and well-educated man.

    This was a person who had ZERO values, who thought honesty and loyalty were some kind of religious conspiracy (well, except of course, other people were supposed to be honest with him, and loyal to him!).

    This was a person who had spent a year and a half fucking up his relationship with his kids, completely disregarding their needs and his responsibilities as a parent, and who then admitted that he hadn’t, NOT ONCE, in that year and a half, thought about how the many choices he was making would impact them or were impacting them. NOT ONCE.

    This was someone who had nuked his kids’ family and then abandoned those kids, and horribly betrayed the woman who had put up with all his bullshit and had still loved him, and who now could ONLY think about how miserable HE felt.

    This was someone who wanted to apologize. He said ‘I’m sorry’. Smarter now, I asked what he was sorry for. ‘I’m sorry things didn’t work out between us.’

    So the closure I got, was that those conversations helped me, finally, finally, finally, understand how very much he sucks. That’s it, that’s all.

    • KarenE – It is in comparing their actions and choices with their words that we find out that they truly are not good people.

      My STBX brought his young girlfriend to my son’s soccer game just 2 months after our baby was born. My son knew we were starting the divorce process but had no idea that part of that reason was that his dad was dating someone else. STBX never had a conversation with kids about his leaving, wanting a divorce, or dating. My son didn’t talk to him for 2 months afterwards. When I asked him how he could do that and did he realize how incredibly hurt his son was, he replied, “I wouldn’t have done it if I knew how he was going to react.” That told me everything I needed to know about STBX. He didn’t care about hurting his son. He only cared about how son’s reaction affected him.

      Once you realize that they are not capable of empathy for anyone else besides themselves, it changes how you view all their actions, both in the past and future. The why is simple…because they really do not care.

      • Yes exactly, the idea that they can’t even imagine how someone would react to a situation shows that they do not have the ability to forsee or expect the consequences of hurting the very people that love them. Also they can’t put themselves in the other person’s shoes and comprehend how others will probably feel, unless of course, they are on the receiving end because then it’s affecting them directly.

  • “Relationship autopsies”. That perfectly describes something best avoided.

    I remember spending hours writing to a cheating BF to voice how he hurt me, describe at length all the he-said, she-said stuff. I edited that letter all night then sent it off with hope. His reply came a week later… “People change. Take care.”

    When he later tried to hoover me for some more cake, I had found CN by then. It took me less than 5 seconds to decide to block him permanently.

    • Hears Gloria Gaynor’s ” I Will Survive” playing in my mind!

  • Resist the urge for closure … a Hollywood euphemism for “there is always hope for a happy ending.” Not with this person. Next.

  • I asked why. The piece of shit said “I don’t have a good answer for that”. I said, so why don’t you try giving me the truthful answer? He says ” it just happened”.

    Oh hell no.

    I said so it just happened huh? You were driving down the street and your car just happened to steer itself to the Slam Pig’s apartment complex? And your shoes just happened to walk your worthless ass to her door? And your hand just happened to reach out and ring the doorbell? And when she let you in, a freak gust of wind just happened to blow both of your clothes off? And then you just happened to slip on a banana peel and fall dick first into her used up slime pit? And then you just happened to have a seizure that caused you to flop around inside of her until you ejaculated. Yeah, that must be it, that must be exactly how it just happened.

    The look on his face was priceless. He got all prissy and flustered and said “ewwww, you’re gross, you’ve got a sick mind, stop it or I’m going to throw up”.

    I said, I’m not gross, I’m not the one who threw a fuck into a used up slam pig. She probably didn’t even douche after the one who came before you.

    And then he ran and threw up.


    • Just goes to show that they can’t stand to look at the reality of their actions. Although you made it delightfully less palatable, LOL.

    • Well you know it could have happened that way, wouldn’t be surprised if that version isn’t included in the New Revised Cheater Handbook!

  • My STBX pervert gave me closure when he said, “I cheated because you are too old for me.” We were both born the same month…….same year! How did I get old- but he didn’t? WTF?

    • Mine told me his AP was 50, somehow this would throw me off and I would not feel threatened, he is 44, she is late 30s at the most, wtf…

  • The worst part of the why game is that it is a slow painful death. They are comfortable lying to you and hurting you beyond measure (as evidenced by their cheating). Yet we ask them why. We may get a shred of truth. We continue to ask why. Maybe another shred comes to light. After 100 whys, we may know slightly more, but the reality is that we still don’t know the truth. Only the tidbits they want to disclose that they use in order to blameshift or gaslight you. In the end, you are right where you started when you began asking why. What a waste of time and heartache…

    • Because secret knowledge to them is power, it keeps you coming back for more and they get that little narc power rush. Indifference is the key.

  • Hey cheaters shove your closure up your lying asses! We know why you cheated:

    1. You felt entitled to cheat
    2. You wanted to cheat
    3. You could cheat (because us Chumps trusted you).

  • “Why did they cheat? Because they could. Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you. Not enough.

    Ouch. There’s your closure.”

    Of all the wonderful words from CL that have helped me through the shit storm, those words finally cut through the hopium smoke. Although I was no contact with xhole, I kept hoping for that “one” reason of why he did this to me. CL put it so succinctly…there is no valid reason…he did it because he could.

    The fact that he did not care enough about me to be faithful sealed my resolve that it just didn’t matter anymore. It wasn’t about me…he just didn’t care enough not to hurt me.

    Thanks CL!

  • Oh how long the list is and ever changing.
    I’ll try to remember most of them.
    I didn’t make his favorite lasagna and baked ziti enough (you know because once or twice a month is just not enough even with leftovers). I clean better than him and more often than him (because he refused to clean, ergo forcing me to either clean or live in nastiness), I’m controlling (while he was passive aggressively manipulating me into doing everything),. I “wouldn’t” let him pay the bills (even though some months I was so exhausted from doing EVERYTHING, that I begged him to at least just take over the finances and bills), my hair was too short (and then it was too long), all we ever did was fight (no motherfucker, you were emotionally abusive, physically abusive twice in our marriage, and kept behaving inappropriately with women and I called you out on your shit maybe 50% of the time. Any sane person would have done the same). I didn’t let him pick out the paint color for his man cave (WTF so those 3X he went to Sherwin Williams so he could get the exact right color wasn’t him picking out the paint? SMDH). The list went in and on and got more and more ridiculous as he kept changing his reasoning. Mostly the list was complete fabrication on his part. I never even tried to understand why he lied to ME. I was there. I will could understand him lying to everyone else who didn’t live with us, therefore, wouldn’t know a lie from the truth, but me. Whatever. Want closure. File for divorce with a great attorney, move forward and don’t look back, and accept that your cheater is just an asswhole. No need to analyze which kind of personality disorder they may or may not have. He/she is just a lying, cheating, backstabbing asswhole. Closure! Done.

  • The night I planned to tell my wife that we were getting divorced, she didn’t come home ’til 1:00 a.m., drunk from drinking beer and sucking face with her OM in a bar.

    The alleged purpose of this sloppy, hoppy rendezvous was to “obtain closure.” Shocker, that’s not what happened! Closure has the exact opposite definition for cheaters.

    Oh, and don’t bother asking “why?” At best, you play an unending game of whack-a-mole, trying to save your marriage. At worst, you’re already divorcing, but allowing your spouse to continue to mindfuck you into oblivion.

    No Contact, as much as possible.

    • Uh-huh. My ex told me at one point that he expected to get closure from our divorce. Two years later (aka a few weeks ago) when the divorce was final, I asked if he got the closure he was looking for. His answer was “I’m still processing a few things.” Closure to the emotionally detached doesn’t ever mean what they think it means, or what they want it to mean.

  • What made me see that closure does not exist was doing the work on ClusterB disorders. The pattern of a narcissist’s relationship is usually described as: 1) overvalue (love bomb); 2) devalue (the phase where the criticism, attacking, gaslighting starts; and 3) discard. I don’t thin a cheater has to divorce to “discard,” although lots of them just move on to their next victim. I think “discard” is when the cheater unplugs emotionally and turns to someone else pretty much full time. That might mean staying out all night, vacations with Schmoopie, a full double life.

    A person who carries out relationships in this manner is not capable of actual insight into the self, of understanding motives in some logical way. The narcissist is all need and self-delusion. There’s no point in asking a person for closure when that person was never in a true reciprocal relationship with you, who lied and cheated, who devalued you in a thousand ways. For me, that’s just as true for people who were married 30 years and “suddenly” the marital partner changed. I don’t believe in “suddenly.” What happens is that keeping the mask on got to be harder than walking away–or the cheater finally got caught. When a chump sees behind the mask, some cheaters double down and swear that the mask is real. Others just move on to someone new who trusts the mask.

    I knew Jackass for over 30 years. I trusted him as a friend. I liked him and thought he was a good person. We had fun together, I thought. But he couldn’t sustain anything once it was day-to-day with someone who would call out his behavior. I wanted closure. I asked for it. But they can’t explain why because the truth is that something in them is missing. That’s your closure. The person was not who you thought they were.

    • This is spot on, Lovedajackass. I was with mine for 18 years. I thought underneath it all, he was a good man. We had fun together and enjoyed each other’s company. That’s why this has been so hard. He was my best friend, damn it. And I wouldn’t take his behavior any more. He’d come in from his garage time (which was EVERY night) and be drunk and I would just leave the room. Wouldn’t get into a fight with him. I’d just say, “I’m not going to be around you when you’re like this.” I don’t think he liked that at all.

      He’s not my problem anymore, or my responsibility. I felt like I had four kids instead of three because he was the most irresponsible person ever. Glad he’s gone.

  • It’s telling that therapists say that narcissist and sociopaths are resistant to therapy. If a therapist can’t get actual insight from these people, neither can chumps.

  • When I first found out, I asked why a lot. His standard answer was “he didn’t know why and he was fucked up in the head” (really no kidding) 32 years of marriage, never once did he say he was unhappy, not in love with me, didn’t want to grow old with me. Nadda… Just went out and had an affair. These are a few more gems.

    Ex’s Answers:

    “I WASN’T unhappy in our marriage, I had the opportunity and I took it”

    “Well maybe a little of the reason why I had an affair is because you were sleeping on the couch frequently” Ummmmm, Yes, because you snored so bad.

    “She’s been my fantasy women for many years” Ding, Ding, Ding we have a winner for his most fucked up answer, His “fantasy” women has a history of having affairs (my ex was not the first one), has herpes, is 46 but has a face of a hag, has 4 kids under the age of 12 (my ex is 56 years old). That’s is his fantasy women??????? He gave up his wife, his two daughters, his family unit, his respect, our house we put so much love and sweat into for “his fantasy women”,

    He is living his dream now!

    • “His standard answer was “he didn’t know why and he was fucked up in the head””

      OMG. This was my ex’s answer, too! And he is with the whore now (she is 13 years younger than him and has three kids under the age of 12). He left *everything* we’d built for that piece of crap whore.

      I still find it astonishing that these men follow the same playbook. They say the same things, go to the same whores, etc. Just astonishing.

      • Such selfish and entitled creatures, each and every one of them.

        • Yep. We are well rid of them. I cannot wait until Tuesday and “meh”!

  • My cheater is dead so I’ll never get closure. When I caught him in Final Dday with final OW he first tried to verbally bully me and when he realized would not back down in exposing him to her , he literally stared at me for a second, her for a second, his mask dropped and his eyes went cold, he then walked out of the freaking room and left her and I staring at each other. I said “I would love to talk, wanna get a cup of coffee”, she said yes and we talked for 5 hours exposing the truth of what had been happening for the last two years. When confronted with the reality of the situation HE created he simply had no good explanations OR declarations of love for either of us and literally just checked out. His currency with us was ruined and he knew it. It’s the closest thing to closure I will get. At the end of the day he didn’t love either of us.
    They all suck.

  • The closest thing to an apology or closure I ever got from ex was a text message: “I’m sorry for things.”

  • _In my case the cheater was the one waiting for closure, at least apparently.
    Actually his little narcissistic brain was trying to reconcile because breaking up meant no more free house, food, cleaning, fresh laundry, delicious food and humble and docile wife to yell at in front of our three adult children.
    He knew what he would lose. I bet he misses the rages most of all, I realize only now how he was thrilled by getting away with the abuse, the financial exploitation and the multiple cheating while blaming and raging against me for futile and inconsistent reasons.
    _So I left the him waiting.
    I told him to leave just for a week, and meanwhile packed all his stuff in one suitcase and the rest in many big garbage bags.
    He’s still trying to convince my mother and our kids in subtle ways that I treated him unfairly, that he never cheated or only once because I made him cheat. I have undeniable evidence, emails, pictures, videos, recordings of his voice confessing he had many hookers, married women, neighbors’ wives, waitresses and any available woman around was his target. Some women refused to date him replying that he had a pretty and smart wife, that he shouldn’t cheat. It’s all written in his chats.
    No closure, no contact, yet he’s trying to “borrow” money from my mother wearing his sweet harmless puppy face. He’ll never change.

  • In a bit of Karma:

    I found out (oh, the stuff you can find on a Mac with Time Machine!) that OWhore #2 BEGGED FOR CLOSURE when he broke up with her, and called him periodically FOR YEARS begging him to meet with her “to talk,” “for closure” (Found this out during attempted wreckonciliation after OWhore #3)


    I later found out that Other Whore #3, whom he broke up with immediately after I found out, stalked and harassed him for THREE YEARS begging “for closure” showing up at his work, threatening to show up at his house, his church, etc. – to the point where he filed TWO successive Injunctions Against Harassment against her.

    Yeah, bitches, there ain’t no closure.

  • “Why did they cheat? Because they could. Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you. Not enough.”

    I asked. His response was, “I had to figure out if I wanted to take things to the next level with you.”

    I didn’t like that answer, so I said, “Look. If you have to sleep with someone that isn’t me to decide if you want to be with me, then there’s something wrong with you. I may be breaking up with you but YOU killed this relationship, and in a really fucked up way.”

    It’s true he didn’t care about how it would hurt me. I really do understand that…

  • I never asked Mr. Sparkles “why”… because on each D-day when I confronted him with my evidence, I was learning the why… and it isn’t very complicated.

    HE IS A WHORE. We don’t share the same values.

    I’m not going to lie… I was a catatonic blubbering mess for a solid year. But through the grace of God, the one place where I didn’t seek solace was with Mr. Sparkles. I have a TRIBE of girlfriends and family that I leaned on HARD and they always answered the phone, responded to the text, invited me to have a glass of wine and vent… they let me purge.

    And in those actions from them, I re-learned what love looks like… in all those friendships I found my blessings and my way back to sanity and into No Contact/Grey Rock.

    Healing doesn’t happen when you’re hovered in your bedroom corner crying (though that does have its place)… it comes from sharing your story… a millions times if necessary… until you get to a place where it becomes a small part of your big life story.

    CN – I’m proud to be a member of our tribe, even if it meant going through hell to get hear. You all are the strongest life warriors I’ve ever met. Viva la revolution!

    • I LOVE this. My friends and family have been amazing. They have been there for me every step of the way. For awhile, I was looking to Ex-Douchebag for support, but after he threw me under the bus AGAIN (he was hoovering me while with the whore and lied about being with her), I said ENOUGH. I am DONE. It was the giant wake-up call I needed to get the hell away from him.

      • Yeah, this is a great trick, eh? Hoovering us while still with the slunt. Mine even admitted it, when asked. Oooooh, that makes you SO attractive to me! You cheated on me with her, and now want to cheat on her with me!!!! Now THAT is a quality person!

        • YES, exactly!!! When I told him he was cheating on me with her, he said, “I’m not cheating.” IDIOT. In a way, I’m glad he did it because it was exactly what I needed to be done with him.

  • Yep, I got “I guess I was just bored”.

    Agreed CL. This ‘idea’ of closure keeps Chump stuck. I prefer ‘arriving at meh’, because by this point you’ve switched several important buttons in your head. You can see them for who they are (fucktards) and it sinks in that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you.

    I thought I’d feel closure when the divorce papers were signed, but I didn’t. Once I started implementing and reinforcing boundaries (“no you can’t have a key to my place”), then I was on the road to meh. I didn’t know about ‘no contact’ or ‘grey rock’, but it would have helped me see things clearer and faster. Newbies, you’ve got to exit from the drama and chaos they create.

  • I also got the non-apology apology, the blame-shifting (you left the sponge in the sink, you crowded me, you didn’t let me go to happy hours with my friends, you’re a white girl and you don’t understand black men), the excuses (I was molested, even though he’d never brought this up before being caught), the rationalizations (I never actually wanted to see these women–he only admitted to one in-person indiscretion even though I knew there were more), the selective attention or mis-remembering things I’d said (you said you only liked sex twice a week, though I clearly in plain English said I liked sex much more often than that). And anyway, since the only thing I knew about him for sure was he was a liar, why was anything that came out of his mouth credible? In the end, he didn’t love me enough to protect my feelings, or even give me the choice about what kind of partner I wanted, because he always kept the position and the upper hand by lying to me. Once I really accepted that he only cared about himself and the things HE wanted, it got so much easier! Because what he wanted was not a relationship, it was a deck stacked entirely to his own advantage.

  • Look, cheaters cop to needing “closure” all the time. “I just have to meet her at that hotel in New Mexico… for closure. It just isn’t right to dump her with a no contact letter. What we had, well, I owe it to her to do it in person.” We know what closure means — it means they can’t quit the kibbles.”


    I had the unfortunate pleasure of reading STBX’s closure letter to his 21 year old traveling stripper. I read about how awesome she was, intelligent, sweet, and how much he respected her (Funny how a woman who takes her clothes off for a living is worthy of his “respect”). He talked about how awful I was, how many issue I had, but he owed it to our kids to try and make it work, but if “I” didn’t change it would be a sad day for our kids.

    The only sad thing is he actually believed his cheating was my fault and he was some upstanding guy in an unbearable marriage to an awful person. Now that we are divorcing I’ve earned a new title as “Gold digger” (I heard that little doozie today).

    Here’s the thing… in their eyes the problem is you, not their behavior. You can’t work with that… unless of course hoop jumping is your favorite past time, but I wouldn’t call that closure.

    My closure came when I realized HIS REASONS DIDN’T ALTER MY REALITY…. he was a serial cheater, end of story!

  • I asked why so many times. Why? Why? Why?????? The best answer I received was: “I’m not capable of giving you the answer that you seek because I can’t tell you what you don’t want to hear.” Mumbo, jumbo really.

    The odd thing about my X’s affair is that the two of them were seeking closure from a relationship they had previous to my marriage to X. OW’s dad had passed away and she was feeling vulnerable about all of her relationships, past and present and she needed closure from X and he was the only person that could give it to her. Silly me. I thought the closure was that since the two of them weren’t together (and lived in different states and were married to different people) THAT, right there is the closure. What more do you really need? The two of them should have gone to counseling together! That would have made the most sense of anything that happened.

    My X is a manchild. He is/was unemployed and is always going to school, never receives a degree that is worth anything, he would barely do household chores, can cook a little but expects his wife appliance to do it for him, reduced us to near poverty but would still never get a job because there wasn’t a job out there that paid him what he was worth, was the killjoy to every family gathering, we couldn’t celebrate any holidays because he couldn’t look past his atheistic views on life to have a little fun without a really good reason – unless it was his birthday and then I was expected to pull out all the stops. Yada, yada yada. He told me he misses because basically I did everything for him. So that, right there was my closure on a 12 year relationship, 10 year marriage. Needless to say, I don’t really miss him. Now that he’s gone, I get to celebrate the upcoming 4th of July with my family WITHOUT walking on eggshells and wondering if he’s going to say something rude to my parents, siblings, etc. That is closure to me. I don’t need to know why he had any affair anymore, I have finally realized that life without him is so much better.

  • Me: “Why????”
    Cheater: “I was never happy” (bang bang!)
    Cheater: “we have nothing in common” (bang bang!)
    Cheater: “You have no direction” (bang bang!)
    Cheater: “You’re an angry person” (bang bang!)
    Cheater: “You’re a moping, depressed Sequimite”
    Bang bang!?
    My baby shot me down. ?
    So yeah. I might as well have shot myself in the face. It would’ve hurt less.

  • My ex cheating cousin banging narc wife texted me admitting to everything…. cheating, blameshifting, gaslighting, being absolutely horrible.

    But, she only did that to make herself feel better, for me to say I forgive her and it’s okay. No concern whatsoever for my wellbeing.

    I had her dead to rights in my sights… and could have blasted her… but instead texted back only that everyone has their own journey to walk

    Of course her text was only all about her….what a monster

  • I’ve been given SO. MANY. REASONS.

    I didn’t believe in him. Too many bad things happened to us. I made him feel bad about himself. I was embarrassed by him. I changed. We didn’t have the same goals in life…

    Every time I ask, I get a different reason. What I think is the real reason (because of his current behavior), is that the 42 year old man-child wanted to go out to the bar as late as he wanted, whenever he wanted without anyone calling him out on his bad behavior. He didn’t want responsibility and a a 7 year old kid and wife with cancer is nothing but responsibility. And as far as us not having the same goals? When I asked what those were, he couldn’t tell me because I don’t think even HE knows what his goals are or who he is.

    • Cancer Chump, I am so sorry you are having to deal with cancer on top of your ex’s horrible, horrible behavior. I have rheumatoid arthritis and it was getting a great deal worse (hmm, I wonder why? Living with a narc, maybe?) and I was absolutely devastated when my ex did this to me. It felt like he was leaving (and cheating) on me because I was sick. It’s absolutely disgusting behavior.

      And it is NOT OUR FAULT.

      Oddly enough, my RA doesn’t feel as bad now that I’m away from the douchebag. I wish nothing but the best for you. Kick cancer’s ass!

      • I’ve read studies that say having a lot of stress can cause inflammation in your body and lead to cancer. Makes me wonder if he was part of the reason I got cancer in the first place. I’ll never know…

        It’s actually better he left in the middle of treatment, because I was so angry when he was there not giving a damn about how I was feeling. Even during chemo I was doing all the housework, keeping on top of the budget, etc. And when I had an occasional down day, he would ask me how long I was going to be like that. He thought I was embarrassed with him? Hell yeah I was! He is a disgusting excuse for a human being.

        • What a douchebag.

          I was totally embarassed of my ex – and ashamed. The things he said (racist and bigoted), the things he did (he stole, he manipulated, he used people), the promises he broke (TOO MANY TO COUNT)…and I still feel guilty that he knows I felt ashamed of him. WHY?

          Doesn’t matter anymore. We’re done. Thank the Lord.

  • I’m okay with closure (and lack of) regarding my disordered cheater husband, but I’m still struggling a lot with closure with the OW. I also carry a lot of personal guilt regarding her partner.

    I considered both the ow and her partner dear friends of the family, having spent several dinners, vacations, holidays, and time together over a period of at least 10 years. I used to admire the OW so much. I thought she was such a neat person before I knew.

    When I found out about OW’s EA to PA affair 3 years ago with my husband (I think it lasted 4-5 years), my husband and the OW broke up, and OW stayed with her partner. OW never responded to my attempts to contact her, and I’m pretty sure her partner never found out. All this was kept a secret from everyone except family members. I and my husband stopped getting invited to group events from the circle of friends.

    I never told the ow’s partner (or any that circle of friends), and I feel like a total asshole about it. Now I think too much time has passed to get involved now, so I should accept that a part of me is scum too.

    I think about the OW a lot still. This frustrates me so much, because I feel like after 3 years I should be over this by now.

    I’m jealous, because she won custody of the friends, has kept her awesome partner, and seemingly has this fabulous life. I hear about her and her partner doing things I dream of but can’t for a long time because of finances and job demands. When I hear or am asked about her from other people, it’s so awkward.

    I’ve spent the last three years battling depression and am exhausted from changing my life. I grieve that I used to be a younger, trusting, and optimistic person, and now I’m a bitter, pathetic, middle-aged person. And lastly, I miss the life I thought I had with them and my husband. It freaks me out that all these seemingly happy memories from the last 10 years are fake, because of the affair that was unknowingly going on.

    Therapy, meds, my real friends, and family are helping. So has this blog. I normally lurk here but this topic felt so timely today. The fellow chumps stories of triumph encourage me, and I relate so much to the horror stories, making me feel less alone. Thanks for that, all.

    • Cluster-
      I am so sorry for your pain. I know exactly how you feel in regards to how these pricks use up all of our niceties and leave us with an emptiness which we are left to fill with pain. This pain projects itself as resentment, anger, bitterness, and falsely defines us as the residual effects the hurt has caused us. I believe when we can finally let go of the pain, we will rediscover, layer by layer, our true nature. Until then, we must use our anger as our greatest defense against the disordered.
      I too am a bitter, angry, middle aged woman at the moment, but I am reassured, when I am around my children and all the shit melts away, that I am still here. I am still loved. I am still, as I always was, Tracy.

    • Cluster Chump, none of this is your fault. And she is not innocent in this. Who knows who else she is banging now. She’s a cake eater and keeping her husband around for the image management and using him for the lifestyle. Don’t be envious of her. She’s a fake. A fraud. She may be fooling a lot of people, but she’s no longer fooling you. Your cheater husband didn’t dupe her in to anything, she chose to cheat too. Not only cheat on her husband, but on you her friend, on her family, and on her friends.

      Go on and live your authentic life with real love. Be angry about how they BOTH treated you. Be done with both of these lowly, kibble eating freaks. Find what makes you happy now and go enjoy. Don’t look back. Their karma is no longer your concern.

  • This part: “With chumps though — it’s like we can’t quit feeding the kibbles. ”
    Codependents Anonymous has really helped me with things like this. I highly recommend it.

  • Let me refresh my memory and go over the many answers I was given:
    1. Because I don’t feel appreciated (sorry your highness if I was blind to your greatness at sitting on your ass in front of the TV while I was busting my ass working and taking care of the house and the kids)
    2. Because I don’t know how to be with you and what makes you happy (good choice there, the affair made me really ecstatic)
    3. Because you don’t get an orgasm (interesting…and who’s fault is that?!?)
    4. Because of the way you dress up (I refuse to dress up like a slut because I am not one)
    5. Because the house is dirty (it could help if you picked up all your shit that’s all over the floor)
    6. Because you are a negative person (never understood this one, but who cares really)
    7. Because you are always nagging (no shit, it would help if you could quit drinking yourself to death)
    8. Because you are not playful and you never talk dirty (coming from someone who was withholding sex from me because he had too much sex when he was younger -the guy is now 42- and he is not into that anymore)
    9. Because you don’t cook Mexican food (it didn’t matter that I am a top notch cook otherwise)
    10. Because you are too black and white (sorry asshole, gray was never my favorite color)
    Fuck you asshole!

  • My cheater is dead now also and I will never have any real answers. I did get many of the same, lame ones that other posters got. I guess his best was, ” I don’t know, things just spiraled out of control!” I ain’t buying that at all because I think his middle name was control! He did give me one that I thought was imaginative though, “you put me on a pedestal like I was perfect and I just got tired of being that perfect person.” Yeah, right! Anyways, I have given it some thought and it boils down to this, she offered it up and he went for it! It was opportunity arriving at his doorstep and he literally jumped on it! End of story. I also realize now (too late) that he was a huge covert narc. He could act all humble when he wanted to, but deep down everything he did throughout our marriage was to make him look good. He orchestrated our marriage to look wonderful for his own deceitful ways. If anything went wrong then he could blame me or anyone else cause everyone knew he was Mr. Wonderful. It makes me ill to think I was so manipulated for the best part of my life.

  • You know, I’ve thought about this topic on/off all day long. At one point, I did want closure. I wanted reasons why. Finding CL & CN helped me realize I don’t need closure nor answers. I’m not going to get them anyway.

    We are about two weeks out from closing on our marital home & you know what? This is it. The final “tie” from our divorce that has to be taken care of. I am so excited I can hardly contain myself!

    Yes, we have a 19 y/o & a 16 y/o. The oldest is out on his own & doing his thing. The youngest lives with me, but she handles her relationship with her dad without me having to talk to him ever. The only time I ever talk to him is about this damn house. And, hopefully, it will be gone in a couple of weeks.

    I went to the post office yesterday & ran into some friends that I hadn’t seen in months. They weren’t close friends, but I used to play golf with them from time to time. Both of them commented about how great I looked. One of them took it a step further & told me that it wasn’t so much about how great I looked, but that I looked HAPPY. That was the best compliment that I’ve gotten in a long time. And right then & there I realized that yes, I AM happy.

    Closure? Nah…no more wishing for that because it’s a waste of time. I just want him gone.

  • Today’s post motivated me to pull out the apology letter my cheater sent me way back when and read it now from the clarity of “meh”. At the time, I remember thinking he was actually being nice. Wrong!

    It’s ALL about him. “I feel…” “I don’t want you to think…” “I’m focusing on…” There is absolutely nothing in the note that is intended to make ME feel better, unless you count the defensive “we didn’t talk about you” stuff and “I respect you” (big deal… the Starbucks barista respects me, too, but I expect more from my husband).

    And the best part: “I’m sad that this overshadowed everything… Can we talk about our relationship without talking about Schmoopie?” Aww, poor baby… he’s sad. 🙁

    “Overshadowed everything”?? It IS everything. Cheating is the culmination of everything that is diseased about his character. It is a moral failing that is unforgivable. It introduces a level of rejection and scorn that you can’t just set aside to focus on other aspects of a relationship. It is the elephant in the room.

    I’m so grateful that he is out of my life now. Good riddance.

    Closure is every glorious day that I don’t have to see his smug, lying face.

  • Cheating is carrying on a romantic and sexual relationship with someone you shouldn’t be having this type of relationship with behind the back of the primary partner, the person to whom fidelity and honesty is due. In depriving their primary partner of their due, the cheater experiences feelings of superiority and pleasure as they think of how the primary partner is being duped and imagine the pain that the partner would feel upon discovery. The cheater is feeding off of the pain and mistreatment of their primary partner when they are off having their affair, not unlike the way they feed off the pain of their primary partner when they are abusing them to their face. Because they have an image of saintly perfection to maintain, they could never answer the question, “Why?” by answering that the only way they can truly feel passion is in the course of an affair with a similarly immoral co-conspirator in which they disrespect, dupe, smear and deprive their primary partner as to what is their due. Any answer to the question “Why?” by the cheater must meet two requirements – 1. the cheater is not at fault and 2. the chump is at fault. Ultimately, the cheater must be able to feed off of the pain of the chump.

  • Talking about closure. Yesterday I lost marbles with EXHUSBAND FOR 2 MONTHS STILL LIVING IN MY HOUSE . I started using “vocabulary” from CL you “discard me”, cheater book. etc He looked at me like WTH ! ??Then he started saying:” I did not said this! I did not do that. What are you talking about? Maybe it was a joke! , When I ask him why you did not tell me when you started cheating? He told me: What can I do? the street!” Of all the argument he just got offended because I called his “tutti frutti” … TWAT (I learned this word here ?) and told him he was a psycho. He got upset because someone could hear me and think that he was a psycho for real. All about them… Do not worry about closure because they do not remember anything anyway. What I will remember is the day when he leaves for real my house❗️Yes❗️

    PS Yes I got the same ? on a txt mssg that regarding the kid. He texted me that he will never forget that I am his kid’s mom and that he will value that for the rest of his life. #psychoromantic
    #hereisyourclosure #allaboutwonderfulme #streetsmakeyouxmcheat

  • Fico, they don’t realize how stupid they sound, eh? ‘Someone might hear you!’ It’s not what they do, it’s what you say about it! Well I hope EVERYONE hears you and knows what a LYING IDIOT he is!

  • While we were “together”:
    Him: [Goes on business trip to Asia] Tells me afterwards, “I don’t want to go to Asia again.”
    Me: Okay. Not tops on my list either.

    Him: You didn’t want to do anything on my bucket list.
    Me: I didn’t know you had a bucket list. What’s on it?
    Him: Asia.

    A bit later (during my pick-me dance):
    Me: I’ve been thinking more about your bucket list and Asia, that we should go.
    Him: I don’t have a bucket list.

    • I got something similar,

      We were walking through town and I said “XYZ is a nice shop”
      Him “XYZ clothes are too expensive, we can’t afford for you to shop there”

      So I never bought clothes there.

      After DD, Him “She takes pride in her appearance, she shops at XYZ shop”
      Me, outraged “I could have shopped at XYZ shop, but you told me not to because we couldn’t afford it!!”
      Him “I never said that”.

      I believe this is what they call “gaslighting”.

  • My idiot x announced after about 8 weeks of individual therapy that he had learned what he needed to learn. He and the therapist agreed the counseling was a success. It was maybe a month before the divorce went through.

    What was this great learning? That he only looked at the upside of things he wanted to do and he needed to learn to consider the downside risk as well.

    How romantic. If only he’d considered the possibility that 3 DDays would be my limit, maybe he would only have fucked strange occasionally, under ‘safe’ conditions rather than nailing every willing female he could find.

    I do remember fondly x’s look of indignation during one point in the conversation. He announced his ‘cure’ and let it just sit there, unexplained, and seemed to expect congratulations. Or possibly awe. I said, Oh, so I assume this means you’ve decided you’re happy with your lifestyle and now you’ll continue with it openly.

    It was my sincere best guess at what could have been accomplished in such a short time, especially since x had focused mostly on the depression he supposedly developed about the divorce.

    X indignantly said No! That is NOT what I learned. And then shared his incredible insight.

    Six years later he’s still a cheating man-whore. Looks like he still hasn’t figured out how to look at the downside risk (or get a conscience or find some empathy or develop a few principles).

    They are shallow and they cheat because they want to and they can.