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Dear Chump Lady, My husband wants to date

sobbingDear Chump Lady,

Am I being unreasonable for having a problem with my husband’s ongoing relationship with a woman he tried unsuccessfully to seduce?

One night about a year ago, we both got home from our respective jobs and my husband burst into tears. I’m talking, deep, rasping sobs. With his head on my lap he told me he’d been courting a coworker for a few months, buying her gifts and taking secret time off of work to take her on day trips. When he finally put the moves on her the previous evening (he often stays late), she shut him down and said, “not going to happen.”

At first I thought his tears were bitter tears of remorse, having almost ruined a twenty-year marriage. But upon further probing, I discovered that it was the rejection that had him crying in my lap. “Just once I want to be loved!” Excuse me, hello? Who said “I do” in front of our family, our pastor, and our entire church? He explained that he was having trouble forgiving me for my initial rejection of him when we were in high school and then he dumped a laundry list of problems he had with me that could circle the planet three times.

He said the almost-OW made him feel alive. I asked, “well then sweetie, shall we separate?” He said no, there was no point. Oh well then, allow me to be your consolation prize! Long story short, we separated for nine months. Our fifteen-year-old son was furious with both of us. My husband and I stayed in touch and tried to work it out. He and the almost-OW never had sex and now we’re back together.

However… he has remained very good friends with the almost-OW. He texts her regularly right in front of me. I won’t stoop to snooping on his phone but I can see what he’s writing! It’s mildly flirtatious, which is how, incidentally, he describes their relationship. I’m positive they haven’t had sex because this woman is perfectly happy to be worshiped for free, but I have a serious problem with their relationship. When my husband announced that he was going to meet her after work for drinks last night, I made a very snarky remark and he was furious. He told me the courtesy of telling me he was going to spend time with her was over. He maintains that he is doing absolutely nothing wrong, they are just friends, and that I’m being petty. So, am I the one being a jerk about this? Technically he hasn’t cheated.


Insensitive Lady-Jerk

Dear Perfectly Reasonable Lady,

Technically, you haven’t stuffed his balls down his throat yet.

Is this a question about technicalities? Because uh, technically you’re still his wife and technically, he’s not supposed to go on dates until you are technically divorced.

He’s got some fucking nerve.

Sobbing about his failed dating strategies? You let this man drape his moist, snotty self all over your lap and wail about another woman?

Look, Lady, he’s a flaming asshole, but you have to stop being a chump. You separated and then took him back without any consequences or boundaries. He meets her for drinks? No, he meets her for CAKE. This whole “I’m going on dates and you’re not the boss of me!” is completely unacceptable. Start ACTING like it is unacceptable to you. Lawyer up. Why does he think you separated? Because you’re just mean like that? NO. Because he was openly trying to have an affair in front of you. He’s moves home, and then he goes right back to the same old shit?

Is this relationship ACCEPTABLE to YOU? Who cares if he thinks you are “petty” — do you think this kind of flagrant disrespect belongs in a marriage? If you don’t, then get to a lawyer’s office. You don’t need a marriage counselor to explain to him that dating other women in front of you and then whinging about it is wrong. If he’s that dim, you should divorce him for felony stupid.

No, he knows EXACTLY what he is doing. He’s being abusive. He’s being very in-your-face about his attempted infidelities to hurt you. To goad you into the pick me dance. To humiliate you. To belittle you into accepting his cake-eating as Right and Proper.

Lady, you need to shut that shit down.

For one thing, get to a lawyer fast before his employer does. You only have his side of this kibble love affair. For all you know, his advances are unwelcome and that woman is seeing an EEOC officer as we speak. This guys is walking the razor’s edge of a sexual harassment lawsuit. You need to get a settlement in place before he loses his job. She told him “not gonna happen” — next she’ll be telling that to Human Resources.

I’m sorry your 15 year old is in the middle of this, but he’s a kid and he doesn’t get to call the shots in your marriage. Staying with this asshole is modeling TERRIBLE things to him about how you treat a marriage partner. He needs to see you stand up and not tolerate abuse. He needs to see that there are consequences to disrespecting and endangering the people we purport to love. He might not like it at first. Kids want to know if their world is going to be safe (where will I spend holidays? will I see my mom and dad both? will I move away from my friends?) Get him some therapy and be the sane parent.

It doesn’t matter if the affair was physical or not, start calling the shots, Lady. It matters that he is emotionally abusing you and refuses to stop. It matters that he’s blaming YOU for some perceived slight from high school.

He doesn’t get to do everything short of fuck her and then claim it’s A-okay because he didn’t consummate the act. (He probably did. Adults fuck. That’s what they do.) The issue is that he wants to live like a single person, but enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage. That’s more than enough reason to divorce his ass yesterday.

When you serve him papers, say “Just once you want to be loved? Here’s your freedom. Have at it, Tiger.”

This column ran previously.

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  • My X pulled a similar act of cluelessness and told me (with tears in her eyes) that I had to help her get over the other guy…. And how he had treated her badly.

    As if any of this was my problem.

    Time has passed so I can laugh at it now – but how could you possibly say this to someone you’re cheating on?

    And yes, when I read Lady’s email, it did occur to me that her H probably has had sex with the nearly OW. I lived in the same gullible denial after DDay, until I found the sexting messages and the other guy’s wife showed me his phone records, all whilst she claimed she was no contact.

    • Ha! I got similar sad stories during false reconciliation about my cheating ex-Wifes’s boyfriend. “He’s an asshole [sob!]. He just used me for sex!”

      Uh, ya think??

      Then? I sympathaized and was angry at the guy for her. Srsly. I was.

      What the ever-lovin’ hell??? Who could seek and accept sympathy from their victim like this? Who would give it? Oh, and I also found out later that while she was sobbing about his guy she was screwing another AP.

      It was devasting at the time. Years later I’m like hahahahahahaahah you hateful dummy.

      • Ah yes the tears…If you haven’t heard my story the AP died in a plane crash, I dropped everything to look after Yo Yo Knickers and kids, she cried, she screamed, I slept at the family home for 5 days, tidied the house, got a doctor to see to her, got her sedatives to cope with everything, booked her in for counselling etc…I was a proper chump

        At the end of the 5th day she announced to me that she was signing up for on-line dating!

        Like you both I can laugh at it now. 🙂

        • [shudder]

          I think you were married to either a robot or an alien. Or a robotic alien. A truly brutal indifference to others.

          • Mickey – sounds like you were living in separate places at that time?

            Yeah, I have a close story.
            It never for a moment hit me that he had any feelings for this harlot.
            When he started crying about how he’d miss her, I was completely confused, and said…aww – well, I guess you ARE upset about leaving her. Poor boy. I was just totally flabbergasted that he felt anything like THAT!

            Oh – and one more when he was weeping about how bad he felt (right after I caught him) (poor little caged animal, he said, and scared) and was wailing on about wanting to kill himself. I said, hey honey – go easy on yourself. It was *only* an affair.
            To this day – I canNOT believe that came out of my mouth!

      • Looking back on the behavior you put up with doesn’t it make you feel nuts? Like you wonder why you would ever tolerate that kind of crap? My ex pined away after OW moved with her husband to another town. He treated me so awful while he was grieving that she no longer lived right down the street from us. He cried and sobbed and wanted my sympathy when he decided to leave because he was in love with her (although he told me and the kids she had nothing to do with it). I remember him wailing “Okay, I’m a BAAAAD PERSON” and I actually tried to convince him that he was actually a good person.

        • It’s amazing the contortions we put ourselves through to make them feel better about their shitty behavior, isn’t it? My X literally felt sorry for himself about what he had put me through! I also comforted him when he cried about how our lives would never be the same. Of course, he never felt the need to reciprocate. It was always about him. Lunacy, sheer lunacy.

          • Oh, no, another asshole with the irreversible state of things? Mine cried about that countless times, and all I could think about was “really, asshole? The time to think about that was before fucking your whore”.

          • Mine caught me crying over the state of my marriage one day (after failed reconciliation but before starting the divorce) and said “I still cry sometimes too”. I asked him why and he said “That our marriage would turn out like this”. He wasn’t crying because he was sorry about what he had put me through or about what he had lost. He just didn’t like feeling like a failure for having an imperfect marriage that wasn’t going to last forever.

        • When you finally have had enough, leave crazy town, and experience the behavior of normal rational human beings, you realize how completely fucked up it was….Here’s to a parasite free life!

          • Yep. I went 25 years without hardly being asked how I felt about *anything.* When it happens now (I am very happily remarried) it often feels like a question meant for someone else. “Me? You want to know how I feel about x?” Then I have to really think about it. And it leaves me feeling very *indulged*. When really it’s just two people treating each other decently. Imagine that!

        • Mine called me at work at 11:00 a.m. one morning, sobbing like I have never heard him cry, saying he needed to pick me up. I dropped everything and ran down to meet him. I thought someone had died or something. He was a blubbering mess and could barely drive. Then he told me he lost his wedding ring! I was in shock, he tried to tell me he had been in a therapy appointment, but I knew he was seeing his AP and took it off to see her. I couldn’t stand seing him cry like that so I comforted him, we got home, I searched the car and found the ring. He continued to blubber and I took him inside and got him to lay day, made him something to eat and held his head in my lap until he stopped crying. Hour later he was back to his cold, cold version. WTF was I thinking??? Fifteen years together, I am not ready to laugh at it yet as it was 3 months ago.
          When I was on the floor sobbing he told me to get off the floor and stop being so dramatic.

        • Lyn, My husband also called me after he dropped Schmoopie off at a hotel so her Mom and sister could pick her up for her to get home. He told me for about the hundredth time it was over, then started in with the “I’m a BAD person!” Of course I reassured him he wasn’t, but turns out he really was! Must be a tactic to see if we will boost thier ego and fall for more BS! And I did like a damn fool!!! I wish I had someone smack me with a 2 by 4 but unfortunately I couldn’t just leave the “poor baby” drowning in tears! Yuck!

      • I was told, in much drama, ” AFF is a Bait&Switch! They want to TakeYourMoney in order to find ‘friends’!!!!”

        And then there was the time when his NC with the rotting rectum of wonder, “I had to contact her. I wanted to make sure she was okay (with me busting their asses in the decade-long fuck fest).”

        No. It’s NOT okay. None of it.

          • Omg! AFF beyrayal!! Before I filed, I confronted my husband substance about his Tinder account. He met a woman on Tinder who he was dating who sent me all of their text communications. His excuse was boredom while on a week long vacation in Atlantic City with his friends. Yes drinking, clubbing, and gambling so so boring! Sadz. He starts winning to me “I swiped right on every single girl on Tinder and I was getting robo-hookers matching with me! Wah Wahh! Not every girl was a real chick?. There are some fake profiles ?.” Tinder betrayed him. Someone get me a tissue.

        • Really, what is it with the “I had to make sure the whore was OK” business? This bitch was in her FORTIES! Now in her FIFTIES! She survived for DECADES without you, dumass White Knight. The dumsel in distress is old enough to be a great grandmother…

          • Anita I often ponder this as well. I asked if he is still speaking to the whore at work. I mean i didnt leave the cheater i felt i had a right to ask. He said yeah I have to make sure she is ok. Asshole never once asked me if I was ok. instead I got the blanket ripped off of me at 6am after 2 hours of sleep and had a raging psycho scream in my face GET UPPPPP! with a series of demands that if i didnt run to do he would destroy my work computer and break my car windows. I guess love honor and cherish meant rage terrify and destroy. Silly me. I guess it was opposite day again.

          • After our divorce was final, I found a credit card statement in our financial records showing X had purchased a Christmas gift of a Juicy Couture watch for gradwhore 3 weeks after he had broken up with her to come back to the marriage (with me still in the dark about the why of his I-want-a-divorce-no-let’s-stay-married reversal). A consolation prize to her? Wish he’d wrapped himself in a ribbon to give to her and saved me 8 more years of hell with him.

    • I’m the same. Mine tried to convince me it was only cunnilingus. NOT PENTRATION SO THEREFORE I CAN’T BE THAT MAD. Oh my god the gall of these people.

      And look! They surely couldn’t have had penetrative intercourse, because cheaterpants didn’t’ have a CONDOM handy. Oh gee. What a consolation. I’m so relieved!

      Why I didn’t leave then and there I still am angry at myself over. I let him walk all over me for at least another 2 months. But when I left, I went NC. Best thing I ever did.

      • I got that too with another discovery of his HoWorker, Company Bike. “It wasn’t sex!!!!! It was just oral!” All this with the MC. Gotta tell ya, fingers, penis, tongues, vegetables, appliances, whatever, if you’re naked with someone who isn’t your SO with the INTENT of sexual pleasure, it’s all sex.

      • I got the same, it was like I was one of his guy friends who was supposed to be sympathetic when he overheard her “flirting” with someone else at work! (WTF)?? It is such a high level of mindfuckery that a Chump is not capable of figuring it out at first. If you tell the truth, meant your vows and stuck by them, and have a heart, you would not find yourself doing this to someone you “loved”.
        I also fell for the one that they used a condom. Guess what? If they don’t care enough not to cheat on you and it is obviously all about them, their pleasure is far more important than your health! Mine said he used them but wasn’t prepared for my questioning. Who bought them, where did he buy them etc. Could tell he was lying one the answers had to be thought about.
        News Flash! If they cared at all, they would not be doing this to you!

    • After a quarter century together, my STBX husband went into hiding upon being caught with much younger AP by AP’s fiancée. I finally tracked my elusive husband down two months later and while we were speaking face to face, his phone was blowing up with incessant calls and texts from AP. He had the audacity to remark to me (HIS WIFE), “What am I supposed to tell her?” followed by, “She’s going to think we are having sex!” I told him if she is feeling uncomfortable, etc. she shouldn’t have gotten involved with a MARRIED MAN! He sure didn’t have problems avoiding my calls/texts when messing around with her (Lucky Schmoopie! MY HUSBAND wants to remain “faithful” to her!) Honestly, I can’t believe I wasted all of my twenties, all of my thirties, and half of my forties with such a callous, narcissistic, disgraceful excuse for a human being. However, being that I’m the one who was so easily discarded, my self worth is now non-existent. He somehow felt I deserved all of this and has shown zero remorse. I don’t know how far “meh” is from here, but I need to get there on the fastest nonstop form of transport possible!

      • Horrible story, Smurfette, and I fully understand why you might be feeling less than confident at the moment. But if an immoral, derelict, poor-excuse for a human being doesn’t think well of you, then I’d say that is an indication of your amazing worth. You weren’t shallow enough for him to appreciate. (And give yourself 2 years to get to meh; it takes a long time to fully process how much poor treatment and mindfuckery we were subject to. Hugs!)

  • Hi Chumplady,
    Your last few blog posts have really resonated with me.
    I am 18 months out from d-day & my husband is dragging out the divorce.
    I have noticed I am repeating patterns & am working VERY hard on not continuing to do this.
    I had a friend end our friendship when I calmly set a boundary. I respected his wishes & let him go. He contacted me out of the blue & I couldn’t work out why until I read a previous post & realised he was missing centrality & cake. It was a lightbulb going off in my head.
    I am a classic chump in that my first thought when something happens is what have I done? I now am happy to self-reflect without immediately thinking I am to blame.
    Thanks to you & Chump Nation I am getting stronger & healthier every day.

    • Kimhopes–You’d think that they’d welcome the divorce, but no, they drag it out. All of a sudden, they’re faced with the unhappy consequences of infidelity, such as losing half their retirement, paying child support, etc. Suddenly all the fun and games come with a price tag!

      Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.

      • What sucks is that chumps also lose half their retirement and pay child support. We often get the price tag without the “fun”

        • The price tag is steep Buddy that’s for sure. Chumped twice, marriage and finances! Two years out, have my sanity, however have to find a 2nd job at 53. Truly sucks, we were set to retire early, well she’ll be able too. She’ll never want to help our daughters out financially with their desire for advanced degrees, but I will, and with pride:)

    • Same here, it took a motion to compel to get him to complete his side of the discovery. Now the last card he is playing is he doesn’t like the mediators my lawyer picked and he insists on still lying under oath despite the proof we have of him wasting community assets on the OW. What a waste of time and money! I don’t understand why they find pleasure in perpetuating the suffering of others. Yes, this too shall pass.

  • LOL I remember the first week of reconciliation the (now) x telling me how much it hurt him that the OW had dumped him. I remember looking at him in amazement and just asking him if he was kidding me. He at least had the decency to look ashamed of himself at the idiocy of the remark, but looking back now he was probably faking it. They really do work off of the same damn script!

    I would REALLY like to know how this one turned out, seeing how it ran previously, so if the OP is around, WHAT HAPPENED???

    • Mine kept wanting to tell me all about her problems and what a horrible person her husband was and how terribly he had abused her, like I was supposed to care.

      • That happened to me too. And I basically said “Boo hoo fucking hoo! So she’s SO NICE and SO SAD that she DESERVES to FUCK MY HUSBAND and try to steal MY LIFE?! What about MY husband who is now a cheating POS?! How sad and sorry are you for me?!” That got an ashamed look.

        I feel exactly zero sadness on the part of the whoremat and my fondest wish is that they both burn up in a house fire and then spend the rest of eternity burning up in the biggest, eternal house fire together too. ?

        • Mine never did get the irony of it all. I don’t think STBX is deliberately evil, just selfish and clueless (perhaps a bit willfully clueless).

  • how about if your husband is head of federal HR, and is fucking his subordinate, who is lead HR, and also married, he had a password to see our phone bill, I hacked into it and found over 10,000,texts, when he came home and I confronted him, he said she was just a friend, and he was attracted to her but didn’t know how she felt about him. I should have kicked his ass right out, but after 32 years together I was in a state of shock. Of course he blamed me, I didn’t pay enough attention to him, among other things. so of course I have been playing the pick me dance for a year. I finally got a hold of her husband and sent him the emails, no messages but the amount was staggering, sometimes going on for 14 hours straight.After her husband received the messages it was over. he cried and confessed to fucking her, but of course he says only 3 times during 8 months, right! so stupidly I try harder, I put listening device on him because I was sure he would contact her again, what do I hear him , after I think things are going pretty good, I hear him telling another woman he should probably move out, and start moving money around , and how I wanted to have a deeper relationship, I say get the fuck out, he goes on a trip for a week, comes back and says , he was just venting to this person. And he won’t tell me who she is, like an idiot , I take him back again.A couple of days ago he gets a call from a blocked number, which by the way, he never takes calls from blocked numbers. so I say, was that your friend, he says no it’s a call from Washington DC, I say really , another federal worker is calling you from Washington DC at 730 at night, and I thought you didn’t answer blocked numbers, well she emailed me earlier and told me she was calling, please give me the strength to get away from this piece of shit, I really can’t take anymore,by the way he told me he was in love with his affair partner , but he really wasn’t because it was an addiction, We have a really nice family here, and really nice life, but I think once he had the affair he can’t stop looking for his better, please give me the strength to leave’, he also told me when he had the affair, it made him realize there was something better out there for him

    • I’m sorry, this wasn’t a reply, I was just looking for some help out there! Someone hit me over the head please!

      • You have to stop playing the pick-me dance. Stop giving into his mind games and belittling comments about his “luv” for the AP and his “enlightenment”. Start protecting yourself and see a lawyer to find out your rights. Stand up for yourself. Don’t give him anymore control over your heart. Start sorting through your finances and secure your own account. Start taking your life back

      • Nina, I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been there can understand how confusing the betrayal is. As chumps, we often try everything to escape the logic of the situation. So first, forgive yourself for being confused and forgiving. Next, I hope you will realize there is nothing to work with here. Could you ever do or say the things he has? Let the implications sink in. I’m sorry, but he is preying on you. It’s not going to get better. You are in a fight for your survival. You need to start fighting now (lawyer, no contact or grey rock). You can do it. (((Hugs.)))

      • This man gives zero fucks about you. None. Zip. You don’t matter to him. You’re worth less to him than a new dip with his wandering dick.

        You know who you do matter to? Us here at Chump Nation. You matter so much that we’re all standing behind you, ready to support you in your battle to extricate yourself from 32 years of entrenchment with a pig.

        Strangers care more about you than your own husband. Let that sink in.

        Big hugs, stay strong, and hold the course.

      • Nina, I found a journal I was writing in around the time my 32 year marriage was coming to an end over crap like you’re going through. In the journal I’d written, “What if I face my fear of being alone instead of clinging to someone who doesn’t want me?” That is what you’re doing. Let go. It’s not going to get better, it will only get worse. You don’t deserve to live your retirement years with someone who clearly doesn’t give a damn about you any more.

      • This POS was already talking about moving money….Girl you need to lawyer up NOW….he doesn’t give one shit about you…you’re just image management for him…there is plenty of time to grieve later…Plenty….cover your ass now or he’ll leave you with nothing….he already has pmans to

    • Hey Nina.

      Fuck him. Get to a lawyer and get all the info you can. DO NOT TELL HIM! Strike now. He’s an asshole.

      Take care.

    • OMG Nina-what a piece of shit! time for you to move money and kick him out! my sucky man-child (SMC) told me he had never had sex with his tramp because he had a family. he told me the empty bottle of 50 blue pills were so he could beat off (our sex had dwindled to fault of course that he is impotent) i laughed. pathetic. it is going to hurt like hell but dont you hurt now> it is like pulling a bandage off..hurts for shorter time if you rip it off especially if you are the ripper. hugs!!

        • Omg, please tell me you’ve gathered bank info? My ex and I had sex Every. Day. Often twice. It never dwindled. Even when his escort habit picked up to nearly every damn day. He worked it in during his business day. An innocent glance at phone records opened Pandora’s box.

          You know they say rape isn’t about sex? Right? Him – doing you or her, isn’t about love.

        • Nina – no one can want sanity and peace about your existence more than you want it. It’s at that point you’ll do a free consultation with every high-powered divorce lawyer in your area (so he can’t employ them later), and move toward a better future where you love and value yourself. But you need to get comfortable NOW naming this what it is: infidelity/affairs/deception/emotional abuse, and whatever else he’s done and is doing to you. Say these words to the lawyers when to talk with them. It gets easier every time. The humiliation isn’t yours to carry, so try as hard as you can NOT to associate yourself to his disgusting behavior and lack of ethics (at work!), character and integrity. That’s on him.

          Want to know what you’re likely dealing with? Want to know why such a “sudden” change in his behavior toward you when he’s able to be with you intimately almost everyday and you have a shared history going back decades?? The truth won’t make this better for you, and you won’t feel better right now just from knowing, but at least possibly you’ll know what you’re dealing with, and how bad he possibly could become after you finally kick his ass to the curb.

          There’s a common thread among the douchbags you’ll read about at Chump Nation; some to extreme degrees, others to a minimal level. Read “The Sociopath Nextdoor.” If that’s not enough, here’s a little excerpt from a book called “Confessions of a Sociopath: A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight” that I’m reading right now (that details the x-douchebag in my situation to a FINE point):

          “Even so, I often try to soften my edges around people with whom I am meticulously calibrating their value to me at all times, because I know that they are hurt by such things. The consequences of their hurt often result in discomfort to me in the form of withheld privileges or retracted social favors – friends and even family are only so forgiving of bad behavior before they start to withdraw – so I have trained myself to behave with ‘sensitivity’ to their feelings like most of you do, by holding my tongue or indulging their hairbrained ideas about themselves and the world. Of course I’m ruthless with my enemies, but that is also a very common human quality.”

          YOU are his enemy once you pull this trigger and take him for HALF of his worth. You have to understand that you and this now inconvenient “marriage” are the enemies holding him back from being free to be the whore he truly is.

          Educate yourself on what you’re dealing with. But you’d better consult with a lawyer now. Ask him/her if you’re able to move half of all the joint funds available to you into a secure single account, then DO IT. He’s already been discussing how to keep money away from you.

          He is not your friend. He is not the man you thought he was, and he’s not just some d-bag wanting to date around. He’s a sociopath who used you like an appliance for the time you were useful to him. These assholes are just too lazy to do anything before they actually do, because child support is expensive and we give them the look of “normal” to all outsiders.

          Good luck, Nina.

          • I was cheering as I read! The excerpt from the book…”meticulously calibrating their value to me at all times”… the opposite of the chump.

            That must be why we feel such solidarity. Through health problems, idiotic job histories (“I was too smart for that job! I quit.”), balding, weight gain, we are there with some spit and glue to make it work.

            But let us slip up, gain some weight, have a family problem, don’t frantically tap dance for their shark like attention- they search for new sources.

        • He is a sociopath. He wants to hurt you and whoever is next he will eventually hurt too. He wants power and control. And cake. Read Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life to understand what is going on in his head. I always thought my cheater was going to leave me. I started to pray that he would leave me, it was so stressful and painful. But, no, I am the one who filed because he was never going to leave cake and having someone to blame all of his problems onto. Run! Get your ducks in a row. You can do this.

          • I prayed too mine would leave. He never did of course and the abuse continued. Year in, year out. It actually got worse as time progressed – they figure you won’t leave them vs in the beginning of marriages when the likelihood of leaving is higher if they behave poorly. It’s calculated risk/benefit and has nothing to do with love.

            I stayed primarily for my kids. I knew in my gut he would get vicious/dangerous if I ever left him (held him accountable) and it scared me. And he did.

            I realize now this is defensive thinking, minimizing losses, and allowing his behavior to dictate rules of engagement. You must switch to offensive thinking to successfully leave the disordered. Figure out what you want, line it up and hold him to your standards of behavior afterwards – via the law and police.

            Be quiet about seeing a lawyer, but you must start telling the village who he is. (I didn’t have the option of moving away and my XH had violent tendencies.) You will need the protection; wether physically or from slander. In the beginning I told no one which was to my disadvantage as I was basically covering for his pathology and he acted on it. Become transparent. Tell the truth to all. they hate it and it puts you in the driver seat.

            Several years out it is really much better. You will realize that you were living under so much stress which is hard for you to know while you’re in the midst of it.

            While going thru the divorce, I channeled Winston Churchill who said something like, ‘when you find yourself in hell, don’t stop. Keep going.’

            You got this. One step at a time. Be brave. Hugs.

    • “We have a really nice family here”.

      Nina- you don’t. I am sorry. Your post was akin to reading a horror novel. Let’s look at the resume of your husband:

      *10,000 texts with another woman
      * sex with AP
      * admission to a OW about stealing money from the family home (Moving money is stealing)
      * complaining and venting about you to another AP #2
      * blaming you for destroying the family.

      So, Nina…where would his behavior START becoming unacceptable to you? Having sex with women in front of you? Moving OW in your house? Asking you to take a job to support OW?

      Where is your red line? He is a proven liar, cheater and abusive person who has no regard for you.

      You need to start taking action- even if your heart has not caught up with good sense. If you want to be hit over the head, put on a helmet. From what you wrote, it sounds like your husband (in name only) is gearing up to leave you. He is exploring the idea with whores, and getting his courage up, his ducks in a row.

      Play your cards close to your vest. Go see a lawyer this week. Get as much money as you can into a secret safety deposit box. Even if you have to stay medicated to do it, do not reveal your plans to him.
      He will either love bomb you or get vicious.

      I am sorry you are in such pain. This is one of those things that no one can do for you. You have to do it yourself. This man will not protect you in anyway. He is actively abusing you.

      Will you keep letting him?

        • I hate it for you. I hate him for you. I hope you can escape him. 90% of this is mental. Making that brutal decision to escape that which is not working, but you frantically, desperately wish it would. I have seen that getting a lawyer who will not wimp out on you is key. Non of this collaborative law crap. That is not for cheaters.

          Get tough. You don’t deserve this life.

          Sending you Peace, Juice, & Good Juju.

            • Nina,
              If you haven’t already, please read Chumplady’s book. I was in a situation eerily similar to yours. I stayed thinking things would be different. I read Chumplady’s book for a second time and the light finally went off in my head. It took evaluating his actions and realizing they just weren’t acceptable to me. Fuck that. I gave him everything. I left him because I no longer felt safe in the relationship because she still worked for him and he still needed to see her and communicate with her (for work purposes, of course argh). It’s a mindfuck. I did the marriage police thing too. It’s no way to live. It sucks and I am worth more. Don’t waste your life on someone who is clearly disrespecting you. I’m really sorry this is happening to you.

              • FloridaChump, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, “I no longer felt safe in the relationship…” Once it gets to that point and you can’t trust them anymore it’s just broken. You can try gluing it back together, but your relationship is even weaker and it just keeps breaking.

      • I read this reply every day, my grandson is visiting for the week, as soon as he is gone, the piece of shit I’m married to is gone! adios amigo!!!!!

      • Who is to say there is someone better out there for her? Perhaps there is and shevalso might never meet someone. Singke is better than her husband. True for me, true for my mom, true for many of my friends.

    • It doesn’t matter that there’s something better out there for him.


      It’s called a life – free from abuse.

      Leave that cheater.

    • Nina, I had a visceral response to your post. I am only 3 months out from DDay/Desertion. And my STBX is a federal contractor so I get the whole DC thing. I can only tell you what I was told early on, which has worked for me:

      Get a therapist
      Get a lawyer – even if you think you may reconcile
      Draw up a post-nup
      Read “Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life”
      Start copying or collecting every financial document you can, including real estate holdings (HUDs)… every asset you and your family has
      Document his affair(s)
      Get tested for an STD

      This is just the starter list. If you get a good therapist and lawyer, they and CN can help you figure out the rest. This is Not a Test said something that was critical for me – if you need it, get medication in order to stay calm and be able to start protecting yourself.

      Actually, I just re-read TiNaT’s entire post and everything in there is spot on.

      This is going to be hard. You are strong enough to handle it, even if you think you aren’t.

      My heart aches for you and I wish you the best of luck. Keep coming back to CL and draw on the collective wisdom and compassion of everyone here.

    • Nina – stay calm, get a lawyer, don’t tell anybody. As hard as it will be, act as if everything is OK. Fly below the radar, meanwhile you’ll be getting all your little duckies in a row. When you’re all ready and prepared, leave him/kick him out. Don’t turn back, you deserve better. I left mine at the airport, and he was totally clueless that I was leaving for good. I had all my ducks in a row – hell, I had swans in a row!! He was f**ked and didn’t even know it, as I flew off into the sunset with our kids. Sayonara, shithead! ??

      Keep reading Chump Lady blog. It will give you the insight and gumption to find your uppity and use it to get him out of your life. We’re all here to offer you support. Godspeed! ????

    • I’m currently getting similar bullshit, he’s trying to come back because he loves me and the kids but hold on he loves her also but alas she lives in Germany. I have been grey rock lately and he has upped the drama stacks and is trying to triangulate me with the whore. I missed the long txt in which ‘he poured his heart out’ as his number was blocked. As my Mum says he kept all the details of the affair for a year and a half now they will become ammunition.
      Pointing out the depth of your hurt to anarc and telling them your done seems pointless, when facts of his fucked up choices are presented he says I am abusing him. He’s a wing nut and good NC really is amazing when it can be done because talking to him is maddening and the mind fuck is getting a bit scary. Every day of not engaging with him is a God sent blessing.

      • It took me a few months to perfect the NC. I was hellbent on getting a confession out of him. Because he DENIED everything, even though I had all the hard evidence. Eventually I had to go NC after realising my need for his confession was just giving him kibbles and centrality. Had to let go of all the drama, trust what I knew from the evidence I had, and go NC. It really is the best thing to do. It’s hard, but great once you get the hang of it. Because you also start shifting that energy from him to yourself, which helps to really begin putting that new life together. NC all the way!

        • Thanks LHATA I’m getting there, not much to say anymore as its pointless and sure as shit don’t want to listen to his fresh insights after he has seen the light after two councilling sessions.

        • left him at the airport–It is very hard for Chumps to realize that begging for a confession or other validation of the affair is just extra kibble for Cheaters. Cheaters trickle truth. They will admit only to what you already know. You have evidence of texting? Yes, they texted but never anything else. You have evidence of sexting? It was just in good fun, but no sex. They went out for coffee and dinners? Okay, but nothing more. Texts and presents that say how much the Cheater loves the AP? It’s just an Emotional Affair, nothing physical (yeah, right).

          You got this picture early on in the game. Often Chumps are so busy second-guessing themselves that their Cheaters keep happily fucking whomever, secure in the knowledge that they can gaslight and trickle-truth for the next 30 years.

          Good for you for calling it like it is! Asking for a confession–or any of the details–just gives them more kibble. The divorce papers? Not so much.

    • It’s time to realize you have nothing to work with and divorce him. It won’t be easy, but force yourself to do it anyway. You don’t have the luxury of actually getting over him first. That was the hardest part for me. I had to initiate the divorce when I still wanted reconciliation. Once you get the divorce ball rolling, you can work on detaching emotionally.

      • Agreed!!!!
        Omg….it was the worst to have to spring into action to do battle with somebody you thought was your life partner a few weeks ago…..all while trying to heal the gaping wounds the truth left you with.
        I seriously don’t know how i survived those first few months.
        You are destroyed, confused, scared as hell…can’t live with what you know, but you just want your life back even if it was awful, because at least that awful you are skilled in navigating. The idea of your love being with another just takes you over.
        Don’t want the confession…..the remorse( it’s fake…btw) , him to realize what he’s lost. Just go. That will be the hardest shit of your life but you’ll survive it, better for it too.

        Hugs to all that cone here. There are some days/ posts/ responses that just remind me how fucked up they are…

        • Paintwidow, I took a screen shot of your masterfully composed comment here so I can reread it in my weak moments. I haven’t been able to properly formulate the words to describe the feelings which you were able to capture here so well about the different layers of grief/loss I’ve been encountering which have to somewhat/somehow be suppressed in order to effectively “do battle”. I look forward to the survivor stage where I’ll realize I’m better off without my deceptive husband rather than marking time in a state of romanticizing our past. Thank you.

          • Still I Rise,

            I know he was an asshole. I knew it when we were married. I knew people found him abrasive and arrogant, and off putting….and I put up with it because I thought he was somebody different.
            Even though I knew all these things, and thought about leaving him many times myself…him asking me for a divorce and discovering there was a mistress he liked enough to lose it all for was devastating. It leveled me.
            It was like he died in a car crash. The person that you thought you knew better than anybody was just plucked from this earth….gone, poof!!
            Yeah, the guy you loved is gone, but his body is still walking around and it hates you, wants to keep all the stuff you accumulated together, and is sleeping with somebody else.
            It’s more than the mind can take. I felt mentally overwhelmed and at times understood those people that have trauma and just go catatonic.
            I’m sorry you go through this and wish you peace and happiness.
            Best advice you will ever get is everything you read here.
            Get your head in the game and protect your stuff, and go no contact.
            This was what helped me.

            • In many ways it would’ve been easier if they had died. I actually think the pain would’ve been less. As it is now, you grieve the loss but are stuck with the mindfuck. I really feel like a fraud at times. The blog about the chump was authentic and real in the marriage was super helpful for me. But like they had died, you really have to still power through making the arrangements, getting your financials in order, and comfort and help kids with the loss.

        • I’ve read a lot of helpful comments in this thread today, but this one gets the prize as the best. Amazing stuff here, Paintwidow.

        • “The idea of your love being with another just takes you over.”

          Yes. That is what is all consuming for me now. It is in my face while I am trying to deal with the practicalities of the divorce. I am trying to get over that but it is so hard.

    • This is all you need to know: “[he said] he should probably move out, and start moving money around.”

      He’s planning to hose you financially, after years of marriage. Protect yourself. Get a really, really good attorney, one who can handle high conflict and entitled jackasses. Meh or Bust gives you the list. Follow it and you can post on the forum if you need more input as you go on.

      You are afraid of change. Chumps as this stage are like people watching the Titanic go down but clinging to the boat as the only solid thing they can imagine. You know this or you would not be playing marriage police. You need to act first, in order to make sure he doesn’t dissipate marital assets and hide money.

      Think of it this way: if you go through the divorce and rebuild your life in a way where you are happy and away from a gaslighting, manipulative, cake-eating cheater, you will start to see what he really is and the other ways he has demeaned and disrespected you. It’s hard to leave a marriage, and hard in specific ways for those who are financially comfortable. But many chumps here leave with 2-3 small kids and no job. Minimal resources. They learn that taking the reins of your own life builds respect for yourself, builds self-efficacy, builds strength and resilience in adversity. If this selfish man gets a clue and gets help, you can always give him an opportunity to show he’s changed. I don’t see that you have anything to work with, other than your own considerable intelligence. It’s OK to want “the old life” back; it will take time and distance for you to see that any life with this man wasn’t as good as you thought it was.

      • LAJ is right–download & copy ALL financial records & tax returns, get a credit report NOW. Once you file (pronto), all financial assets should be frozen (inform any agencies, like stock account firms right away). However, enforcement is only as good as your records of finances so don’t skimp on collecting information.

        And do NOT make the mistake of thinking, “he won’t do that to me, his wife of ___ years.” Yes he will, and worse.

        • Tempest is right. Get credit reports immediately. It will tell you volumes about where money may be going that you are unaware of. I got a legal separation in the state of Georgia. It froze all assets so he was unable to tap into any money or investments. It also laid out what he had to pay me each month to maintain my lifestyle. He was NOT happy and neither was Schmoopie! It prevented him from changing beneficiaries( which he intended to do) and if he created any debt from that day forward then it was on him to pay that. I would not be liable for debt racked up by him and Schmoopie. I had a great lawyer who didn’t play with asshats! My Ex was also retired military and I had been along with him everyday of his career so any of you wonderful folks who are married to military retirees need a lawyer who is well educated in that area also. My divorce ran about 10,000.00 after all was said and done cause numb nuts and Schmoopie dragged it on and on, but worth every penny!

    • Nina,

      I was in a similar position with the hiding money. The advice above is spot on. One thing to keep in mind is that you can talk to multiple divorce attorneys, and you should. They often have areas of specialization, mine for instance had been a federal prosecutor for financial crimes….came in handy when my x was hiding assets. I saw an attorney almost a year prior to filing and the advice I was given was to know and understand the finances and to collect that information. Please see an attorney, please play it close to your chest. My guess is if he’s talking about hiding money, it’s already hidden. You need to get one step ahead of this jerk. See a therapist, if you don’t like the first therapist, see a second and so forth until you find one that lines up with the work you need to do emotionally to get through this process. He makes good money, don’t scrimp on the lawyer, if you’ve read CL long enough, you know that she promotes finding the most bad ass lawyer you can. Believe me, you will not regret having a great lawyer! Good luck.

    • You need to see a lawyer, know your rights and get your ducks in order to get out. If he is talking about moving money around, chances are he isn’t going to be generous in your settlement. Start getting information on all the bank accounts you can ASAP. See if any major transfers have occurred.

      I’m sorry hon, He isn’t going to change. get out before he gets fired.

    • You need to see a lawyer. TODAY.

      Get informed and understand your options.

      You may not want to leave him, but he is giving every indication that he WILL leave you.

      You don’t have a “good life”… you have a life in which you are being mentally, emotionally, and possibly sexually ABUSED.

      You deserve a good life without this fuckwit.

  • OMG what an asshole your husband is. so sad for you. we chumps have to knock this caving to narcs cruel behaviour. my sucky man-child “explained” to me how men in their 50s are so vulnerable to women who pursue them. that was DDay when i found an empty bottle of blue pills and 2700 text messages. i kicked his ass out that day and have experienced the whole enchilada of narcism….fallen for it…and now get it. get rid of that jerk Perfectly. you will feel empowered to have taken your life back. i do suggest you get your finances in order; for all you know he has already moved money. DDay number 2 cant be too far away. hugs!!

    • Thank you so much, I want to cry, have just been searching for help, after reading all the stupid shit about how to fix things. He is still here, doesn’t want to leave , I’m sure he’s looking for his better, but wants to be sure of this one, because affair partner dumped him when husband got texts. he can be really charming, then I fall for it again and things are good for a while, then I confront him with something and he start screaming I’m crazy. finances are good have already been to 3 lawyers, they say I will be fine, now I just have to make the break, but it is so scary!

      • Please think about the toll this is taking on your son. He is in the middle of this insanity and it is teaching him some very bad lessons about the way to treat others. I understand he was furious that his life was uprooted when you and your husband separated. That is just a normal reaction. But he is now living in the middle of chaos.

        It was very tough for my kids, too. Some wanted me to stay, some wanted me to go. One day, after some particularly revelations, my youngest daughter asked me, “Mom, are you staying for me? I am going to be okay, really. But it hurts so much to see what you are putting up with. So don’t stay because you somehow think it is better for me, because it isn’t.” What a wise child she is.

        My leaving has actually created more of a burden for my kids, because their father is very ill, and they bear some of the responsibilities for his care. Still, each and every one of them has told me how happy they are that I left the marriage. Their lives are so much more peaceful, now. They see me living the life I choose and that example has been very powerful for each of them. So please do not fool yourself into believing that it is somehow better for your son if you stay. It’s not. It’s really not.

        • Well said Violet. I reconciled after Dday #1 for my kids, they were so young. I ate that shit sandwich. He used to call me a ‘martyr’ so maybe he’s right on that one.

          When I discovered Dday #2 many years later and that it involved a young schmoopie at my kids school, I realized I couldn’t eat that shit sandwich and neither could they. It’s absolutely unbelieavalbe that asshat could put his desires above his family’s. But that’s who they are–selfish and entitled.

          I was chatting with my son’s best friend and she told me my son had confided how much more peaceful his life is now. Wow. What an eye opener for me.

          My ex is hypercritical and pushed the kids in all they do–academics, sports, etc… Now I realize this reflects well on him and gives him more kibbles. I used to think it was because he loved them so much and wanted them to be successful in life. Now when I ask my kids if they’ve completed this or that, they tell me ‘dad hounds the shit out of us on that so please know we have it taken care of, let us be home in peace’.

        • One of my sister-in-law’s gave me the best advice after her divorce. She said the best thing you can do for your kids is to be happy. I’ve noticed the happier I am, the more I live my own life, the better my kids seem to do. I won’t lie and say that having to share holidays with my ex sucks, but it feels good to be free of the lies and shame of what was going on in our marriage.

        • My girls were the main reason that I choose to (finally) kick him out. Kids learn by what you do, not what you say. I did not want them to ever think his behavior should be acceptable to them. They were mad at me at first because they didn’t know about the cheating but now that they are adults, they realize I did the right thing.

      • Nina, it would only be natural to seek counseling in your circumstances. Please be careful about confiding in a counselor that sees infidelity as anything other than abuse.

        I recommend using that as a direct question during intake. If the therapist answers anything other than, “Infidelity is definitely abuse” you are in the hands of someone who could do more harm than good given your very fragile and vulnerable position.

        It’s like this: If your immune system were compromised, would intentionally seek out sick people? No, you’d be more careful about what you exposed yourself to because you knew your immune system would be fragile.

        It’s the same thing for your psyche right now.

        Hang in there. Keep reading. Be good to yourself

      • My Dear Ms. Nina,

        I believe you have your products mixed up: “Charmin” refers to a grocery item one uses to wipe their ass. You can not expect to have a long term relationshit with it as the expectation *is* it is a single use item. Apparently you purchased a defective one as it was shitty before you ever grabbed a fist full. In the light of day this would be quite shocking; in the darkness of night it would render the “stepped-in-a-freshly-barfed-cat-furball-barefoot” experience to the realm of pre-schoolers for whom anything involving the word “poop” (as in “poopy-head,” “poopy face” etc.) provides endless hilarity. Indeed, your experience appears to be horrifyingly public. One must gather one’s wits and the tattered remnants of their dignity about themselves (hun, pull up your Big Girl Panties) and seek shelter in yet another shitty venue: The Court/attorneys. These are the ultimate Depraved and Despicable Experts of recourse.

        However, even in private the indignity of your experience with Sir “Charmin” requires an immediate resolution: Let go. I’m assuming you have a flush toilet-although even an outhouse has a deep, dark, malodorous and quite mysterious hole where all the crap goes. Whether it’s a squat behind the trees and have one’s derrière exposed to the harsh retribution of everything that slithers, flies, crawls or otherwise has an innate 911 GPS response to exposed dermis combined with malodorous excretions or! one partakes of the wonders of the indoor crapper, the order of operations remains essentially unchanged: Ass-ume the position. Bombs/BS/Bowel Movements away. Remove a hefty chunk of Charmin off the roll. Scrape/rub vigorously/shake-shake-shake yer booty/yer teeny-weenie/wipe in a front to back motion as often as required until any dingleberries or yellow stuff is gone.

        The almost final segment of this operation is where you appear to be flummoxed: Open your fingers and drop the offensive single use item into the nether regions of where ever it is your particular “waste” is eventually “re-cycled” into your drinking water. Ms. Nina, I am sorry to inform you letting go is essential to good health, mental as well as physical. One must engage ones brain and CNS to maneuver the LET GO. NOW. RESPONSE. Which leads to the most compelling completion of this odious task: Engage the handle of the Magical FLUSH! Hear the actively engaged sound of Mighty “MEH!” washing away all reminents of Mr. Charmin This final segment ensures you may now go about your life secure in the knowledge not only is the craptastic experience gone-but so is the thrill. Officially.

        Of course, this is the average response to “I feel shitty! Oh so shitty! I feel shitty and pity(full) and ass wiped!” (Props to “I Feel Pretty,” as para-sung by “Maria” from “West Side Story.”) Now, if you don’t mind spending a little (alot actually but oh so worth it!) extra to make the process a spa experience for your tattered ass, please walk on by those bidets the nouveau riche believe are de “Status Symbol of de Upscale Master Bath” and head right over to those Japanese terlets. Hunny, you ain’t lived until you’ve had your ass enthroned on one of these thrones: The List of “Personalized Options” from temperature of water, length of pre/post wash, of the “dry that thang” cycle, power post-scrub etc. settings are about endless. Best of all? No more Charmin and the cleanest, most sanitized, soothed and pampered ass evah! (It also entertains the kids and scares the crap out of unwanted “guests” who are simply nosey: Install a security camera for the Best. YouTube. Evah!) Be sure to include the demand for this model of Ass Wiping System in your divorce settlement. You shall never experience regret ass-ertained by this daily reminder to never go back to the pedestrian Charmin again.

        Best wishes and Happy Tails to you, Ms. Nina. Remember, ya gotta LET GO. And if necessary, set up a Go Fund Me for your new bathrooms (note the plural) accoutrements. Indeed, “The Best Revenge Is Living Well” -especially after existing in marital hell. Now get thee to the Depraved and Despicable Experts and choose the one voted by their contemporaries as “most likely to be disbarred” as a result of their pit bull tactics “advocating” on behalf their clients. S/he’s your key to unlocking the legal delights of (as I refer to it), “The Japanese Response to the Excretion Burst Experience.” No more Charmin!

        Don’t believe me? GOOGLE that shit, baby!

        • Tundra Woman,

          As always,you have me in stitches…. !!!

          For a free Japanese “terlet” experience,swing by the boutique Opening Ceremony in the Big Apple ! A lot less money than investing in one of these crappers or flying all the way to Japan. I get my cheap thrills where I can !

        • Now that is what we in linguistic fields refer to as an extended analogy! Very clever, Tundra Woman!

    • Nina,

      I was with my ex for 7 years. We were not married but had a child and a house that I helped pay for, but was not in my name. When I became pregnant, he started sampling to find his “better”. A year after my son was born I could not take the blatant abuse any longer. I was shocked, hurt, and a complete mess. I planned to leave one day when he was at work, and I did. Chose a day, secretly prepared to move my stuff and did just that. I took my children and what I could and left. I lost a lot financially, my home, possessions, etc. But you know what – I got out before he could secure his “better”. This left him reeling for years. The panic!! The hardship!! Yes he could keep screwing and dating other women in search of the one, but no security for him. No one to depend on and do the heavy lifting!! Looking back this became the most swift kick to the balls I gave him. And guess what, 4 years later and maybe only now he has found his better. Not sure as we are mostly no contact and all the other women have “fallen through”. Ha ha asshole!

      The truth is there is no better for them, only for you!

      • Yeah that is what STBX was doing. Looking for his “better”. The problem is he thought he found her before I even knew he was looking so I didn’t get a chance to lave him first. It just makes me so mad that he went shopping for his “better” before leaving me. Either I was worth leaving or I wasn’t. He shouldn’t have needed to bring anyone else into the picture before either fixing our marriage or leaving it if that wasn’t possible. He just didn’t want to go through divorce alone, but had no problem leaving me to go through it alone while flaunting my replacement in front of my face. So incredibly selfish. I know I am better off without him in my life, but the nerve and the injustice of it all is hard to ignore and get over.

        • It’s not “better.” It’s just the never-ending need for fresh sources of kibbles.

        • It doesn’t make you feel any better now but his twu wuv schmoopie will loose her sparkle. It’s just hard to predict how much spackle she’s willing to bring when that happens.

  • After I kicked the exhole out, he would constantly call me to complain about the OW. (Who had moved into his parent’s house with him…) She was mean to him, she wasn’t a good mother, she was using him, she was a jealous monster in female company… gee, I wonder why. When I refused to comfort him and simply told him to dump her if she was that horrible to him…backpedal backpedal backpedal. Aka: seeking cake.

    He also called me several years later after Owife divorced him for cheating. Cried to me about how horrible she was and how he had gotten what he deserved. I laughed at him and hung up.

    Yeah, these assholes are not above seeking pity from the people they betrayed.

    • I’m supposed to find forgiveness and compassion for him having the Sadz, nah that energy is all for me and my boys, no compassion kibbles for you! Jog on.

  • Reading what I wrote is good for me, makes me see what an idiot I have been! He’s done! Thanks fellow chumps!

    • Do not put yourself down, Nina. It is so human to wish your marriage was true and noble…to wish your husband had honor.
      You are not an idiot. HE IS.

      Nina, I was so gas lighted when I kicked out the Freak that I was questioning basic truths. I had to pep talk myself into getting up and brushing my hair. I had a big tumbleweed at the back of my head…tangles!

      It takes so long for our hearts to catch up. Why? Because we bond. We love. We do not discard people like old socks.

    • He is doing the sweet / mean cycle, read CL endlessly and get on You Tube, just type in any subject that comes to mind, emotional manipulation would be a good start. I swear the combo of these two have made me firm in my belief that he’s a fuck up. Knowledge is power and when we know better we do better, forge on!

      • I would also suggest a new, private email. Purchase a tablet if you can and disconnect everything from the ‘cloud’

    • you are NOT and idiot….just a chump like the rest of us.
      call that lawyer, DO NOT TELL HIM…..
      remember, anytime he speaks its a lie….. keep repeating…. he is a liar….. he is a liar.
      say what you have to him to play the part……
      REMEMBER he is not your friend…..
      hardest thing to do when you think they are for close to 4 decades…..
      stay strong!!!!

  • I’m sorry, kick this cheating mother fucker out!

    And this dick tease he is pining after knows what she is doing too. They deserve each other. Women who sneak around with married men are “dating” them, I don’t care whether they ADMIT it or not. I will do it for them.

  • this is the first time I have wrote anything on the internet, guess I shouldn’t have used my name, but maybe someone in the federal government will see it and have him investigated, big no no for federal higher ups!

    • They probably won’t. If you want something done, do it yourself. Get to a lawyer. Start making plans.

    • yea, nina, changed your screen name and hopefully the old posts will switch over. I have a screen name but my case is so odd if people knew me they would recognize my story, but you dont need him losing his job before you get a settlement. My cheater was a military purchaser who fucked the sales rep from a company who was trying to get a big gov’t contract. Her company saw their emails and fired her.

      I was also so hopeful that he would come to his senses and be a better husband..truth is they ARE the flaming assholes we fear that they are when they do these mean things. Once they show what they are capable of, our hope becomes rather delusional…but I understand…I did it too. i never left then after he died, I learned he was a serial cheater

    • You can have your screen name changed and it will change all other posts. I would do that sooner rather than later.

    • Do it ASAP. This blog entry is one of the first things that shows up in a Google search of your name. I’m serious.

    • Nina–I took your last name off all the posts & responses to you, just to be on the safe side. Next time you log in, just use “Nina” (so we can keep track of your story), but stay more confidential.

      You’ve got this, and come back for as much help & support as you need!

      • we have attempted divorce 3 other times after the cheating, so we have papers ready, I told him to have them on the table tomorrow, so he has spent the last half hour telling me I’m crazy, and trying to explain away his phone call, said he wouldn’t be here if he didn’t love me, because I’m crazy! Mind fuck!

        • “said he wouldn’t be here if he didn’t love me”

          Loving someone and loving that you can take advantage of someone are two very different things. Also, he would hardly be the first person in the world to try and manipulate someone by lying about loving them, would he?

          • my cheater claimed to love me when he returned but after he died, I found something he wrote himself (granted it was during his affair, but still) which said “I never loved my wife, I felt pressured to marry her”. He never put mean shit in writing because he wanted absolute deniability (massive gaslighting) later, this was one of the few real proof-bombs I have on paper.

            When they do this shit, they dont love us, they love cake and I was a fabulous wife appliance that he didnt want to lose. He gamed me to his last breath.

            • Right there with you Unicornnomore! Seems old cheaterpants got his way before he died! I won’t lie though, because he made my life a “game” it would seem I “won”! I survived and ended up with all the assets! His Schmoopie apparently doesn’t know he is dead and is trying to sue him for “loans” she made to him. It should get interesting.

              • When we were married, I tried to cooperate and do things as a partnership and he was adversarial about EVERYTHING !!! Such is the irony of him dying and me “winning”.

                Roberta likely remembers the story, but for the newbies…I was almost certain that OW hadnt heard that H1 had died and I ran across her cell phone number and one day sent a very casual text telling her if his demise. I bet it bwoke her widdle heart .

                Good job getting the assets, I hope she doesnt sue his “estate” doubts she had him sign documents on the “loans”. Keep up updated.

                In my universe…me & H2 planning a trip to Berlin and Prague….taking one of those river boat cruises…not til March but having fun reading about the cities . Did I ever tell you where H1 took me for our 25th anniversary? Baltimore.

              • What?? Schmoopie doesn’t even know he is dead? Be prepared for the gnashing of teeth and wailing when she finds out her mistress-widow status. You can’ t make this stuff up.

        • Good for you, now pay no attention to his blame shifting and false equivalence a about what you did wrong.

          Come to think of it, since those papers were written up before your current realization that life will be better for you without him, go over them once again and make sure you like the terms included in the agreement. Those papers may have been written while you were agreeing to shoulder some of the blame for his actions.

        • He is projecting his crazy on to you and gas lighting you, making you second guess yourself. He has a high degree on entitlement and zero respect for you. Do your moves but don’t tell him, lie if you have to, these people always go dirty when the chips are down, play your cards close.

        • It doesn’t matter if he loves you or not. It doesn’t change the way he behaves or the way he has treated you and continues to treat you. If he was going to change he would have by now. Keep those divorce papers moving and get this ungrateful, manipulative, abusive whiner out of your life. You deserve better and you know it in your heart.

          • This is what I needed to realize, to be able to go.
            It doesn’t matter whether they love us, or we love them.
            Their behaviour is repeatedly abusive and hurtful.
            Time to go.

            And I’m another one whose kids were upset by the separation, but became much happier and healthier, in our new, peaceful home.

        • If he loved you, he wouldn’t have lied and snuck around.

          Remember what Maya Angelou said, “When someone shows you who they are, believe them. The first time.” Look at actions, not words.

          And instead of worrying about how HE feels, spend a bit of time thinking about how YOU feel. Cheaters are all about centrality. They want the focus on them, not on you.

          This is emotionally abusive. If you don’t have a therapist, now is the time to get one. You’ll need someone who has experience with abuse and relationship trauma so that you can see how he pushes your buttons and manipulates you.

          Good luck! One of my friends recently divorced her husband of 25 years (he had gambling problems–another kind of infidelity). She told me that she was sitting in her home and realized that she was experiencing happiness. It’d been so long that she had forgotten what it felt like.

          I bet that once you’ve settled into your new life, you’ll discover that you, too, can be happy.

          • My cheater has gambling problems as well. Looking back that was the biggest red flag that I missed. He lied about his gambling before we were married, he said someone else must be using our joint bank account. Eventually he told me the truth and promised not to do it again. I could have saved me self 5 years and a lot of heartache. I wouldn’t have my two wonderful children though so in that sense it was not wasted time.

        • The issue is not that “he wouldn’t be there if he didn’t love you”… that’s a mindfuck.

          The issue is you don’t share the same values. You want a man who is honest, honorable, monogamous, and who treats you with respect. He is not that man.

          You’ve got Chump Nation in your corner… I’m 3 years out and co-parenting and it has been hard, but arguably more SANE than all the prior years with Mr. Sparkles.

  • Ah yes that oh so long laundry list of the epic failure you have been and how his needs have been unmet for years and he’s been miserable for years and years! Same thing here. However, first I heard about all that was when I found out about AP. It’s all the big ball of justification to give rationale to immoral choices, to broken promises. It’s simply a gaping character flaw in them! Ah the blaming and mind screwing. Go to superlawyers website and get a referral to an attorney who does only family law ideally, and if there is a lot of money/assets, get one that specializes in high asset cases.

    • Paula-me too! life seemed fine until DDay. now he has built a story about his long term unhappiness. and how he is depressed and needs counseling until he “finds himself” and then we can get a divorce..but first he needs money. well I am helping him find himself. I am the wage earner. this is the primary reason he got an AP..he felt emasculated cuz I paid for everything. the jerk hasn’t worked in 3 yrs. I kicked him out and cut off all his credit cards. Fuck him! guess what, he got a job 2 days later. he is going down!

      • I have a friend going through this. Her husband could never find a job, she paid for everything. Now that he has a sparkly AP suddenly he is job hunting like crazy man… he can save money to move out.
        I keep telling her not to kick him out but that he needs to get that job so she’s not on the hook for alimony.

      • Well done you Bringit. Isn’t it amazing how quickly they can get a job when they no more access to your salary. I earned just a little more than my ex but we had a joint account. He was spending 4-5 times (out of that joint account) on his whore while I was paying the mortgage and had our 2 boys at home. Soon shut that shit down I can tell you. No wonder the whore was “madly in love with him”. Now that I am no longer taking care of “our” finances I understand he is in deep financial shit back in the US (despite having an excellent pension) and Schmoopie has gone back to work “because she was bored”. Ha, bloody, Ha!

      • You paid for everything and he complained, what the fuck is with these ungrateful, entitled shits.

    • divorce lawyers are the worst-they have no gain unless they make the divorce complicated and wonderful. I would tell your h if there are no children, exactly what you want and do a do it yourself divorce having all division of property written out and go in front of a judge. OR, if your h disagrees, then tell him ok we will just spend 20% of our assets with attys, 10% for you and 10% for me. They know what you have because it is the first thing they ask for when you visit, a list of all assets and expenses. The lawyers talk to each other to make sure each gets his 10%

      • I have to say my attorney is awesome!
        Her and her staff got my divorce done for under $4,000 in under 5 months.
        Narkles the Clown paid over $10,000 for the same divorce and I got the house, my car, all my retirement accounts, and many other wins. You have to vet these people like anyone else.

        • AllOutofKibble-you are exactly correct. Unfortunately, the vetting when one is in a morbid state of mind and doesn’t have the experience, like where you go for the best grocery quality and prices, isn’t operating. You were fortunate, seldom hear of good results. However, I don’t know about your situation, but the one who wants out always gives up the most. Was it your h who wanted out, not that it has any reflection on you? Example, he could have had a very high profile career and wanted his cheating to be kept silent to avoid scandal, embarrassment, so he didn’t fight in exchange for quiet.

          • Way off base. I wanted out. He didn’t exactly try to stop me but he wasn’t going to file and ruin cake, like most of our fuckwits he wanted me to be the bad guy. Probably the least objectionable shit sandwich ever in hindsight.
            He wanted a clause in the agreement that I wouldn’t tell anyone what happened. I laughed and said that ship has sailed. I’d already told anyone who would listen. No stuffing that genie back in the bottle. I hadn’t yet told the husband of The Flying Whore on the advice of counsel but I refused to commit to keeping their secret. He pays 60% of child’s expenses and he has to pay for all insurance too.

            For me it comes down to vetting. In the span of 36 hours I asked everyone I knew who was divorced about the lawyer they used, what they liked and what they didn’t. The one I used had three very high recommendations. She and her paralegal rocked!

            I also made an effort to be the person they wanted to talk to on the phone or meet with. I brought snacks and coffee for the office when I had appointments. I was happy to talk to them keeping in mind they hear a lot of angry grumbling every day. I knew my attorney was not my therapist. I also redacted all my own documents instead of leaving it for my paralegal to do. It took me a few hours. It would have taken her a little longer and it would have been mind numbing work for her. I wasn’t sleeping at the time so I did it myself and saved a few hundred dollars. I pushed hard but I was friendly about it. I made sure my attorney had everything she asked for ASAP. How bad did I want out? I was highly motivated!

            Narkles the Clown used a neighbor of his business partner because he heard the guy was good. Not exactly heavy research. By the end of court mandated mediation Narkles the Clown was sad and drained. I walked out of there like I was walking on air.

            • I am super impressed. You were a pragmatic barracuda blasting away, all emotion in a compartment somewhere else, but not in the legal issues. You are a role model of strength and logic. But, see, this old lady who had my experiences with mean, dumb guys did pickup on that he wanted it to be kept a big secret. So I still think that even though you had exposed him, he was a Sir Galahad of co-operation to keep you as quiet as possible, not get you angry, or angrier than you may have been. That your attorney told you not to speak to the AP’s hubby was before the divorce was final. NOW? If you care to or want to and have everything you want now, why shouldn’t the AP’s H know? Is that revenge or being fair? Likely both. (I would want to know and some cheated partners don’t) But then, if you think your X would then start a problem with the childcare expenses and the insurance, obviously not worth it. Because in a divorce all it is, is about $$$. Anger and pain not resolved even if they give us 100% of what they have and every penny going forward, those assets do not stop the pain. Only time can do that. For me, long, long span to get my bearings again. Congrats to you, winner.

      • I could not begin to divorce my fuckwit cheater without a lawyer because he is trying to cheat me there. Every dime I pay the lawyer is money I would never get from cheater without a lawyer. He keeps complaining about lawyer costs but his lies are the reason.

      • I had a great lawyer, but she also told me up front that if my CheaterX retained certain lawyers in town, I could expect a long, drawn-out, and needlessly expensive divorce.

        We’ve said it here in CN but it bears repeating. While a lot of divorces can be handled by the parties involved, the narcissistic streak in cheaters (even those who aren’t NPD have a streak of narcissistic entitlement) means there’s the potential for a lot of conflict. Cheaters stay married because they like kibbles and cake, and there are no financial consequences for cheating. Divorce is one big financial drain.

        Talk to several lawyers. Every lawyer should be up front about their fees. See if they can give you a worst case/best case scenario. Ask them what you can expect under your state’s laws. They shouldn’t really differ in their responses. Listen to see if any of them seem creative. If you’re a man and want to try for more than whatever the state’s usual custody arrangements might be, see if the lawyer has experience in that area. Likewise, if you’re a stay at home parent and need temporary spousal support, see if the lawyer has experience. Again, answers shouldn’t vary all that much, but you’re looking for a spark of creativity as well as a sense that your personality and the lawyer’s personality will mesh.

        I’ve had friends who’ve handled their own divorces, but they weren’t divorcing cheaters. For me, the money I spent was worth it.

  • Felony Stupid, love this CL. I can certainly relate to the married but dating.

    His favorite line was, “I’m dating, found someone, want a divorce and don’t ruin it for me.” No sobbing, pure glee. The man without a heart , a brain or courage was excited to tell this news.

    He was sick; I was sicker. Just once I wished I hit him over the head with a cast iron frying pan. Missed opportunities.

    Wouldn’t want to be him when she realizes he moved her to his old cheating playground. Good guys recycle.

  • “The issue is that he wants to live like a single person, but enjoy all the rights and privileges of marriage. That’s more than enough reason to divorce his ass yesterday.” This is exactly what happened here. STBX said if I loved him enough, I’d let him see if his “relationship” with the whore was real or an infatuation, and he wanted to go visit her and then bring her back in a “polyamory” sort of way cos he loved BOTH of us, and he had only known her for a handful of weeks. I said OH HELL NO and have been suffering narc injury abuse ever since as he makes this divorce very ugly. 26 years and he lost his effing mind.

    • WHAT!!! I swear to God these guys are crazy! mush..their brains are mush. hang in there .dont let the assholes win! hugs!

    • OMG. Asshole wanted the same thing. The whore is actually his first degree cousin, and he went to see her, to see if he was in love with her or what (she’s not in the US). I left before he returned. And then over the phone, he told me he wanted to have an open marriage, and when I said “no”, he asked me if I was opposed only to his whore or to anybody. After that I told him “we only talk through our lawyers”. What is wrong with these guys?!

  • Fuck me. This letter is like hindsight.

    I put up with this shit my whole relationship. He never cried about being rejected–he kept it to himself. But he DID carry on with his series of infatuations right in front of me (from Day 1), acting all pissy that I was annoyed with him for being love-sick for yet another blonde he worked with (they were subordinates, technically). Before that it was classmates in our grad school program. I wanted to leave him, but didn’t think this behavior crossed the line to warrant a divorce. It only made me disgusted with him. He’d get SUPER arrogant and dismissive and totally shady every time he fell in love–he’d condescendingly explain that SHE and he had SO MUCH IN COMMON (I wouldn’t understand.)

    Then he fucked one and I was FREE!

    It was bound to happen. It was his goal all along. I was just a useful prop in his world, until I kicked him out of mine.

  • Cwe have attempted divorce 3 other times after the cheating, so we have papers ready, I told him to have them on the table tomorrow, so he has spent the last half hour telling me I’m crazy, and trying to explain away his phone call, said he wouldn’t be here if he didn’t love me, because I’m crazy! Mind fuck!

    • He’s only there with you because he loves HIMSELF more than you. What caring adult in their right mind would hang around when they knew their presence hurt somebody who loved them, more than their absence? You, and we KNOW it’s not you that’s crazy. It’s HIM that’s crazy for expecting you to ditch your self-esteem and let him get away with it the 4th time, and you have him so scared right now!


      • he sent me a really long text today telling me how crazy and suspicious I am, and need to not ask any more questions because it’s really hard on him, what a effing jerk!

        • My ex insisted that he was ‘just good friends’ with his EA dream princess for six months. During that time I lost 2 stone in weight and looked like a scarecrow – his comment was ‘It doesn’t matter what you look like as long as you feel good’. I started drinking in front of the kids – his comment was ‘Please stop, you remind me of my Mum’ (who died of bowel cancer). I looked in the mirror once and said ‘Look at that ugly old woman’ (because that’s what I saw back then, comparing myself to the princess) and his comment was ‘Don’t you have any hope for the future?”

          My realisation that he had no empathy with me and no consideration – no “I’m worried, you’re so thin” “Why are you drinking? What’s wrong?” “You’re always beautiful to me” – that’s what made me realise he was gone. Those are natural, loving, human responses to the pain I was in at the time. Your guy asking you to stop asking questions because it’s making HIM uncomfortable is exactly the same selfish, self-centred bollocks.

          It’s bloody awful to realise all this Nina – but eyes wide open. Love you, sending my best vibes to you today X

    • Yeah, my STBX still says he “loves” me, just not “that way,” you know. It’s apparently pure, unconditional, familial love – that still let him boot me out for a woman young enough to be my daughter.

      Oh, but they have such an “energy” connection that when he startles awake (as he always has if somebody touches him) it’s not the cat. Oh no! It’s because something fell off a shelf and hit her – at her apartment five miles away. After all, that’s what she said when he called.

      So, he’s “just doing what he *needs* to do” by destroying our family and utterly ruining our son’s senior year.

      After all, his Froot Loop Schmoopie told him that he wouldn’t be leaving me for her. No, he’d “be leaving for his own personal growth and development.”

      Bottom line, Nina, would you treat someone *you* loved like he’s treating you?

      There’s your answer.

      Be mighty!

      • That “startled awake/energy connection” thing is hysterical. How old are these people, 12? It’s hard to believe an adult man can believe that, much less admit he believes it.

        • My kids kept saying their dad was acting like a love sick middle schooler. They just couldn’t get over it. It truly is amazing.

    • And Nina, you will still yo-yo. Believe me you’ll doubt yourself because he is charming and the situation is scary. Write a list of all the bad things and look at it when you need. When I did that, I realised that our life together WASN’T what I’d wanted all along – for 23 years.

      • Lawyer up and get the financials settled Nina. Please keep a poker face and do not let him see your hand. I was so angry when I found out about ho #2 I would’ve used my real name too. If you have any regrets about that, maybe this can be reset???? CL??

        You are safe in the CN though. We are here to support each other. Believe you deserve more than this. Is this how you want to live? Even if he cut all ties with the ho’s, could you ever look at him the same again? I knew I couldn’t. I knew I had to grieve the life I thought I had and the family I thought I had. I’m one year out and more settled. It really does get better.

    • Nina, even if you were crazy, it doesn’t excuse his behavior. The vows say “in sickness and in health” so if you really were mad, he would actually be even more obliged to make sure you felt secure.

  • This chump STILL married a man, who, right in front of me, asked a girl he was crushing on, to kiss him.
    She was mortified. I was humiliated. He was, and still is a fucking bastard.

  • It sucks about your son, LW, but 15’s old enough to have some maturity about this. Just tell him “your Dad wants to date other women and I’m not ok with that, so we’re getting a divorce. I’m sorry this is hard on you, but you need to respect my choice in this matter.” If he keeps bringing it up, just repeat that same bit and add “I’m not going to discuss my marriage details with you – that’s inappropriate.”

    • And I wish I’d had this honesty with my kids when Dday #2 hit with a new young schmoopie. The one years earlier had been a howorker. This one was our 14 y.o. daughter’s assistant high school soccer coach. I couldn’t believe the fucker was chasing around this girl that was so heavily involved in our entire family’s lives.

      He was using our daughter as schmoopie bait to woo this young girl into a relationship. Expensive restaraunts, trips, burning up the texts (thousands), and pushing a relationship on our daughter with her (extra practices outside of school, jogging, driving our daughter around town to different things). He had quit wearing his wedding ring for several weeks and set all his apple devices to a new password.

      When I called him on this bullshit, he said ‘she told me she just wanted to be friends’. I guess that made it okay in his mind, huh? She did not shut him down and was still fine with all this attention of a middle aged ole’ geezer (he does have MD after his name after all).

      He continued on with his little dates while I was getting my ducks in a row. First I gathered all the family pictures and moved them to a safe location (and sadly he never even noticed or asked for a one when he moved out), second I got all my financials together and lawyered up.

      My attorney told me this fleeting little romance wouldn’t last long and did I want to proceed full throttle? Absolutely! He was in such a hurry to run off into the sunset with his young schmoopie as he thought once he was free she’d say yes to more than friendship! He was super agreeable to everything and did more give than take.

      Now one year out from this shit and schmoopie 2.0 hasn’t been the twu wuvs, he’s trying to change things. He’s now asking for stuff from the house since ‘his mom gave him this as a gift’. Telling the kids our joint custody agreement means they have to spend 50% of their time with him. Uh no–you said ‘liberal visitation’ because the kids were old enough to decide. Now you’ve got a sadz because you just never thought they wouldn’t want to spend time with you.

      Lawyer up and take care of the financials. Someone willing to pursue the twu wuv’s without any concern for you or your family life is not willing to put any of you or the family’s needs first in any other situation. Please do this to protect your financial welfare for yourself and your son. He’s willing to use you as plan b or home base. Tell him you need to separate out everything and then you can ‘date’ and see where that leads. Please protect yourself. You can always reconcile after the financials are in place if that’s ultimately what you decide is best.

      • WTG Kudos to you. I think the second time around it is still painful, but one recuperates faster and goes into self protection mode. We had reconciled after he cheated 11 years ago, now I am just making sure that all my ducks are in a row.

        • Thanks Mila. Good luck to you getting those ducks in a row!!

          Once you realize the first time wasn’t just some huge mistake and they are sooooo sorry for what they were losing, you are the love of their life (after being told I love you but not in love with you’s), being a dick the first time after the separation/agreement wasn’t working out to their advantage and the twu wuv schmoopie’s aren’t going as they both thought as divorce negotiations drag on and on. Once you lived this once, you are hypervigilant–yes mine was 12 years later-and you are suspicious of that change in their behavior again.

          It still hurts like a mother and you still grieve what you thought you had for yourself and your family. But really, this is who they are. There’s always another little schmoopie around the corner. Who would it be next? My son’s one day MIL? My daughter’s one day college roommate?

          I was so angry the second time. I worked hard at getting my ducks in a row. I let a few items slip out in anger, but I caught myself and rebounded. I moved quickly while he was all lovey dovey about schmoopie and was in a hurry to get divorced to live that all awesome life with her. I told my attorney we had to move fast because he would be impossible to get rid of if he changed his mind!!

          My daughter tells me now her friends can’t believe she doesn’t have to spend a specific amount of time with her father, that it’s her choice and she just doesn’t want to go to his house much–she gets too homesick.

          Chumps who have lived through one Dday already, move quickly and secretly. Get those ducks in a row! Even if you think you may reconcile one day, if they really love you this won’t keep them from reconciling. Fake it til you make it!!!!

    • Traffic_Spiral you are right on target. When we separated, my 17 year old son was angry with me because in his words “you should just suck it up and stay married for us kids”. I told him that was not an option and after separation, he went to live with my ex. That arrangement lasted about 8 months when he asked to move in with me.

      He told me he could not take the craziness and drama of living with the ex. He also told me he realized that I was right about everything concerning the divorce and why I could not stay with someone like that. He asked me how I was able to put up with that behavior for so long. I just said, well now you understand the world I was living in and it isn’t a nice place, is it?

      The point is they will at some point get it. I never gave him the sordid details, but just said it was unacceptable to live like this and I was choosing not to live like that. It only took him 8 months to “get it”.

      • My 17 y.o. son spends a few nights a week at his dads but I know our home is where he prefers to be. I here my ex trying to woo him over at other times and my son tells him he just wants to relax at home 🙂

        My ex just bought a huge home, I’m sure in hopes to woo our kids to spend more time with him. They are going to be a junior and senior in high school and off to college soon. Not sure why one needs to spend over $400,000 and have 5,000 square feet otherwise. My son was bitching about having to go over and mow the new acre of grass and how long it will take him to have to clean this big ass house–kids are in charge of doing all chores when they go there.

        The ex asked for something that didn’t make sense–my son was venting to me. I got sucked in and asked a question trying to understand ex’s mind (yes, I know. What was I thinking!). My son told me ‘mom, don’t be trying to bring logic into something where dad is concerned’.

        It really does make a chump feel validated and vindicated when our kiddos get it too. I hate it for them, but they are going to have to learn how to live with this asshat the rest of their lives without me as their intermediary!!

        • MJB, What is it with them? My ex and her boyfriend just bought a large home on similar plot of land. Fortunately, the house they bought is also 1.5 hours away from me (yeah). Anyway, the ex is angry that our son won’t go down there to help out! Remember he has lived with me for several months now and visits her every other weekend. When he is there, she expects him to help out with the place (large lot to mow, built in swimming pool cleaning, etc). My son was spending more time working down there than actually seeing her. I finally put my foot down and said “he is not your landscaper, pool boy or domestic help so knock it off. If you want to pay him and he agrees to work there, that is fine.
          But if you and your honey lamb can’t afford the cost of living there, then move as my son is not your help”. Now every time he wants to go down and visit, there is some excuse why “it’s not a good time”.

        • Yes. The good Dad award. Mine told me, “of course the kids always come first” but he chose to take Schmoopie to see fireworks at the cool venue on the 3rd instead of his kids (something that had traditionally been a family event) even though it was supposed to be his night to have the kids.

          Earlier this summer we had a tiff over what pool to join for the summer. Last year we got passes at Schmoopie’s pool (before I knew about Schmoopie). This year I wanted to go with a different pool which would be less emotionally stressful for me and it was also a third the price. He insisted on Schmoopie’s pool “because it is less crowded, some of the kids friends go there, and it is generally better etc. etc.). I gave in because we were in the middle of negotiations and I didn’t want to piss him off. It has been hard on me, however because it is literally impossible to get in or out of the parking lot without driving right past her house. This is hard for me, especially when I see his car parked in her driveway or across the street. I also now know the real reason he wanted that pool. Whenever I take the kids there he can duck over to get some extra good Dad brownie points be saying hello to his kids without having to neglect Schmoopie for too long. He did the same thing with the firework show in her neighborhood last night (the 4th). He suggested that firework show, I was going to come up with a different alternative, but my daughter wanted to go to those ones because she hoped to meet a friend there so I went ahead with that one. Again, he shows up to put in an appearance of “Good Dad” stopping by to see his kids and then scuttling back to Schmoopie. Asshole!

          I had been texting him before taking the kids to the pool because I did not want to run into Schmoopie there and he suggested I let him know when I was going so he could prevent that from happening. I don’t think I will bother in the future. If I run into her, oh well. No more free “get to see the kids without any effort” for him.

          • What a fucker he is, ChumpInRecovery. Do the kids know what happened and about schmoopie? Once you are free of that asshat, no more Mr. Nice Guy for you! I understand keeping the peace while you’re divorcing and getting everything you need for you and the kids.

            It’s hard having to eat that kind of shit sandwich. I’m really sorry you have to deal with that. It really seems like he may enjoy pushing this down your throat. He probably gets off on her having to see you too. Triangulation?

            • They know she exists and that is why we are divorcing. They don’t know about the fireworks on Monday and I haven’t told them because I don’t want them to be hurt (and it could be construed as “alienation” if I am the one to tell them). I don’t think Schmoopie has any more desire to run into me than I have to run into her. If it happens I am sure we will both avoid each other like the plague.

  • This is going to be melodramatic but you need perspective. Look at what your husband is doing every single day. He is murdering you. He is murdering your marriage. He is killing your sense of self. Do you laugh anymore? Do you wake up looking forward to the day? Do you obsess about this constantly? This is the life you want to live? This is your one life! Time doesn’t slip by. Time flies. This is your LIFE!

    These people who tell their spouses about loving others are delusional. Take my word for it. I have worked with delusional people and your spouses fit right in. There is nothing you can do to stop this behavior. Whatever is going on in their brains is so powerful that you have become a zero in their lives. If they justify their behaviors by listing yours why are you listening? They don’t have the RIGHT to treat you this way. It’s like drinking poison every day and wondering why you feel so badly and why you can’t get better. This is so toxic that it is poisonous. Get yourself a good attorney and get the hell away from them.

    • Let go- I don’t find it melodramatic. I find it terribly true. It is a life or death emergency.

      One year out, and I am irrevocably changed. Some ways are not good. I see the world differently- with a soured eye. It is sad.

      The one friend I am most grateful for was the one who keep ringing the red alarm bell, over and over: Run! Run! Run! Even when I would spackle and minimize, this friend told me the next stop for me was death, prison or a locked psych ward if I did not get away from the Freak.

      Truly, I cannot fathom where I would be if I was still chained to someone who was actively abusing me and treating my misery as his entertainment.

    • Great post let go. I need this affirmation. I thought I could help narc, get him to change his ways and see the light. Didn’t work so my thought process became I will embrace his life and fit myself in. Still didn’t work, realized the only way is to get away- no contact and now he is still making it difficult. Can’t win with the delusional!

      • I made the mistake of trying to help STBX too. He dove into a cess pool and I tried to save him. I should have just let him drown before he dragged me and the kids in after him.

  • Omg, what a crazy world you live in! Right then, right there, when he cried in your lap for some woman’s love. You were cast in the role of mother or friend or whatever!
    Right then, right there I would have sent his crying ass packing!
    Get off the crazy train, please.

    • Trust me, looking back, I am disgusted by some of the whiny shit I allowed x to say to me about some whore. But you know what, no matter, it’s still on him and that slutty skank, not me. Shock that anyone would have the gall to say things like that to their wife just really puts all logic out of your head, at least for the moment. Your logic will come back, and it won’t happen again.

  • This sounds horribly similar to the situation I found myself in last year (thankfully, no children caught up in it). I’m so sorry you are going through this, but please get out now! I won’t bore you with my story, but the situation got worse; I kicked him out, and while the future still scares me sometimes, my life is infinitely better now without his mental / emotional torture. Look after yourself.

  • My ex-H did the weeping thing too. He came over to pick up the children one day and sat on the sofa and wept. For a fleeting moment, I also thought he’d finally come to his senses and felt remorse for all the hurt and suffering he had caused. Silly, silly me!

    He was weeping because his ghastly bit on the side had left him because he wouldn’t commit to her. He actually sat there, after breaking my heart into a million pieces, destroying our marriage, leaving our children and expected me to be sympathetic about his upset. And tragically I was. I made him a cup of tea, passed him tissues and said comforting things. How well he knew me and what a chump was I! Makes me feel sick now.

  • I also got the “I’m so unhappy, make me feel better, I hate you for my unhappiness but you need to support me emotionally bit.”

    Here’s the thing, these fuckwits use your empathy to their advantage. They knew we were selfless; they lived with us for years and watched us jump through hoops to try and make them happy, support them and understand them.

    Its appalling that they would stab you in the back, and then throw a tantrum like a toddler because they think it’s your job to make them feel better about stabbing you. “Hey, sure, I’ll ingnore this gaping wound you just gave me and make YOU feel better, because really, that’s my role here right? To martyr my self-worth so that YOU can be happy… uh NO!”

    Relationships are built on reciprocity, and this idea of unconditional love in romantic relationships is one of the most destructive concepts to ever be applied to marriage. Of course my love has conditions, one of them being, don’t screw around and then ask me to make you feel better about it.

    The more I read here at CN the more I realize that these fuckwits are cut from the same dysfunctional cloth.

    • Selfless – it’s just struck me what a loaded term that is.

      Selfless means giving your all for other people. But then what do you have left? You’re just a ghost.

      Chumps, practice self-love. Then there will not only be enough for everyone you want to give to, but you will be full and overflowing for yourself.

      Love you all xxx

  • Got-a-Brain, so true about the harm of Unconditional Love. If I ever date someone and they start on that, we are done. They just want a reason for you to take their crap.

  • “Technically he hasn’t cheated.”
    Technically he has cheated. He betrayed you on a deep emotional level. And that is cheating. Don’t let him gaslight you any longer.
    Sure sucks, but you are worth so much more than being with someone like that.

  • Am I reading this correctly…how in the world didn’t you knock his teeth down his throat and divorce him..I’m sorry grow a pair of additional BOOBS….get some self respect and kick that piece of abusive shit to the curb wtf………………..woman really come on…how CAN YOU NOT BE OUTRAGED !!! I don’t get …STAYING WITH HIM FOR WHAT MORE ABUSE….STOP ALREADY SMACK YOURSELF, shoulders back chest out put your BOOBS ON THE TABLE (YES in place of BALLS)

    • Margo – everyone is different. Some of us have been in similar situations and understand very well what this lady is going through.
      But I like your suggestion of growing an extra pair of boobs.

      • Lol yes boobs beats balls! Even my ltittle titties outweigh a cheater’s balls. Talk about empowerment?,

        (Anyone with breast cancer, please don’t take offense- none intended)

        • One of my favorite quotes, “Why do people say “grow some balls”? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really wanna get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!” ???

          • “Ovary up” to the women sitting on the fence ! It will only get worse and your physical and mental health will take a pounding.

      • I know what she’s going through very well………..he may as well physically punch her in the face …OMG….at that level of mental and emotional abuse ……….enough stand up for yourself

    • Margo, of course intellectually she knows it. But emotionally, it’s a whole different thing. We’ve all been in some sort of drama, enmeshed, feeling powerless, having our emotions constantly contradicting our head. It’s addiction, it’s explained (scientifically) by peptides addiction. It’s tough to beat this. That’s why no contact works: it gives us time to heal. It gives us distance from that crazy. Only then we get to look back and say: How could I ?

      Similarly, looking from the outside we can see clearly. But while on the crazy train…
      I would expect a bit more compassion from the chump crowd. Slap bitch, with a bit of compassion.

      • Yeah yeah I know when EMOTION FAILS REASON FAILS….I get it but ENOUGH ALREADY….it’s not about compassion or not it’s about WAKING SOMEONE UP …if the guy was punching her in the face what would you say…..oh….stop on the crazy train………HE’S A FUCKING LOW LIFE….A GROSS USER LOSER…..HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO GET FUCKED… wake up…how many…u tell me I’m just curious….what 10 20 when you’re at deaths door….

    • If she’s anything like me, her cheater trained her that her outrage was not allowed. Her anger was not allowed. Her justified rage was not allowed. Plow it under, focus on his feelings, beg for forgiveness, give him space, have and opinion but don’t dare to speak of it, and stop being so controlling! (These were his constant expectations of me.) Anyone who knows me would be shocked at the way I stuffed myself down into a tiny little ball for him, because I am gregarious, loud, opinionated, and sharp as a razor.

      It was this blog that pushed me into owning my outrage and being ok with it. Once I turned the firehose of rage on him, it was the end. But it took a while for me to step into my outrage and use it for good.

  • If you get to the point where you are questioning your own reason because your husband wants to date and is blaming you for “being petty,” you have lost your grip on what constitutes “acceptable.” What do you mean, “technically he hasn’t cheated”? Why is whipping out his dick the only reason to divorce a man who is abusing you? And what makes you sure he hasn’t…oh wait. He told you he hasn’t. And you believe him because…he said so.

    If you haven’t agreed to an open marriage, you shouldn’t stay married to this clown. He’s breaking every agreement you made and abusing you emotionally and psychologically in the process. He wants to date? Fine. He can do so as a divorced man, paying child support and giving up 50-60% of the assets.

    It’s normal for 15 year-olds to be “furious” or sad or disgusted when parents divorce. But that’s no reason to give in to you cheater husband, his “girlfriend,” and a 15-year-old. The most important thing you can go for yourself is to figure out why you, your feelings, your needs, your dignity, your safety and your future are not on your own radar screen. It’s telling that both of these males in your home treat you like a “mommy” whose soul purpose is to make them happy and comfortable without regard to the cost to you. If your main goal is to be a good mother, take note that you are teaching your son to be as self-centered and lacking in empathy as your husband. That’s a huge failure if you continue down that path.

    Get to a lawyer and file. Get to a therapist and learn that you matter, too. Get to a doctor and be tested for STDs. And if your son is furious, take him to a therapist, as well, to help him learn empathy and resilience in the face of adversity.

  • Technically, you haven’t stuffed his balls down his throat yet.

    THANK YOU CL for the 1st smile I’ve had in days!!!!!!!!

  • Maybe I should just leave it and go on about my day but I am mulling over my sons telling me Stbx was texting them yesterday afternoon on his drive home from holiday with schnoopie asking if me or my daughter had taken the class to buy a handgun. He tells them that he is worried about my mental health. Son replies “she is just fine.” Stbx says he has seen different. Wtf- I have been as no contact as possible for 6 months. His gun accusations are just wild. My daughter wants to take that class and has mentioned it to me. I would probably do it just for the experience and to socialize with daughter but I am not into guns. Stbx has 2 safes full of guns and I had access for 25 years. I shot a total of 3 times and he was right beside me. The last time, 6 months before he left, he accused me of looking terrified. I wonder if I should worry that all his talk is projection?

    I wonder if I need to contact lawyer about this crazy talk. No one is in any danger from me due to guns,

    • Feelingit,

      Sounds like he is laying a narrative to try and change your JOD. I’d take it to a lawyer fast!

      • Yup ! He’s going to paint you as crazy in front of the judge. Start documenting this nonsense.

    • He has an ulterior motive, to be sure. Document EVERYTHING (with dates) that has been said, texted to you or the kids. MFer is up to no good.

    • Be careful. I know someone whose ex , (while they were still married) put his gun on the front seat of her car. She picked it up and put it away. Her fingerprints were on it. He had her thrown in jail for threatening him. Her prints were on it. That….. is how she found out there was an affair going on!

  • Trying to make you look like the crazy one to the kids. Don’t bite. Keep no contact. Don’t react with your kiddos. What an ass you ex is!!

  • Being that this column ran previously, I sincerely hope she kicked his sorry ass to the curb!!! EMOTIONAL AFFAIR if I ever heard one – NOT OKAY!!!! Hopefully one day, her son will see his father as the loser that he truly is and not at all a good role model. She has to take care of herself. Her son, one day, will have a life of his own. I have so many regrets, I make myself sick… Be smart, Lady… Hope by now your hubby is long gone out of your life. Peace <3

  • I feel so much anger today,
    For one thing I am steamed at Feelingit’ s Stbxm, ( not soon enough) going on about an f’ing gun.
    Stay strong Feelingit. He is just using another method, another topic to get under your skin. Well, not gonna happen fuck wit. This lady’s got class. You ain’t gonna break her, she has CN army by her side and we don’t need guns, we got grit and truth and love that asswipes like you will never have so piss off. MJB and all other Chumps you are doing good, supporting feeling it, supporting each other.

    Sometimes, when alone, the pounding in the chest…the feeling….sometimes the silence is louder than the sound……..

    Not enough sleep, life happenings plus complications, but holding each other up,
    I tell my girls I am so proud of them and I call us The Glue Family, we stick together.

    I would like to extend that title to CN, The Glue Family, we stick together!?

    As to the fuckwits wanting to date, I say, will date your ass off, but date other fuckwits and leave innocent loving decent
    human beings alone!
    You are not human beings, you are

    Geez, that feels better!

    • Peacekeeper–please send me your latitude & longitude; a Chump Nation SWAT team is coming to kidnap you and your children to take them to a cheater-free place. That pounding in the chest *never* goes away when you are living with a fuckwit, no matter how much social support you have. I know you must have told us before why you are still with him, but I want so much better for you. Hugs!

      • Tempest,
        I am just now reading your response to my post way back.
        Thank you Tempest.
        You amaze me. Your kindness, your quick wit, your knowledge.
        I probably never did actually say why am am still with the fuckwit, maybe partially.
        I had only one DDay that I know of, did the pick me dance, he stayed, changed jobs, moved to a different city…life went on, but his narsacist, sociopath plus character remained the same.
        I just got caught up in life, great career, beautiful daughters, times marches on and I know there were many days when I just thought this is how life is, if I even thought that, not sure!
        There comes a point when a kettle boils over and the burns to your body are so bad, you just keep pouring cold water, fresh dressings and carry on.
        My older sibling told me recently that my Mom always kept a suitcase packed under her bed. She certainly had no place to go. She says my Dad was a cheater. He was a quiet, non violent man. I remember my Mom, until her dying day, loving him with all her heart.
        So, I don’t really have an answer, only time passing by.
        Had there been another DDay, ( that I knew of), a CL, CN, would I have had the courage, the fortitude to run. I like to think so.
        I sometimes feel I don’t really belong on CL CN site because I must have been weak to stay, to tell no one, to just go on.
        I do see a purpose for my life though, that is to be a good example for young Chumps to encourage them to do all the steps CL, CN lays out for them and to run. Gather their precious babies to their heart and run.
        It really comes down to the fact the cheating is only one horrible nasty aspect of a fuckwit’s character.
        So many Chumps, as you Tempest, have suffered so much more than me and I am so sorry that someone could actually treat good loving people like this.
        Our hearts are united. We have each other’s back.
        I find strength and comfort on this site.
        I love you fellow Chumps, Tempest, you are at the top of my list.
        I hope you see this late post, but I just had to let it all out, just sorry I did not see your kind reply earlier!


        CN Swat Team, just knowing you are out there, somewhere, in my world, is very comforting to me!

        • Peacekeeper sweetie, we are with you! Chump Nation is all over the world – there’s always a chump awake somewhere keeping our backs. Much love to you xxx

          • Oh ArtistFKAC,
            YOU are an on duty ANGEL,
            Thank you so much for reaching out to me.
            I have been travelling for hours and will now go to sleep feeling your protection and your love.
            I hope that soon you will sleep and know that others are watching over you!


  • I got those tears and sobs for her in my lap, too! Heart wrenching it is. Shock remains years later about that.

    You are writing asking a question you already have the answer to. You know standing up to this the outcome and denial is just easier. Until it isn’t.

    It comes down to, I learned, YOU HAVE TO PICK YOUR SUFFERING.

    You will suffer. But you have to pick your suffering. And you already know the answer, that is why you have come here.


  • Seriously, they must all have a cheater “Woe is me” handbook. My STBX did the whole crying thing and then told me that when ow dumped him it was “just another woman rejecting him”… I was like “Um, what? When did I reject you??? What other women???”
    But stupid me just listened and was stayed his safe place while he told me how bad DumpsterDebbie hurt him when she dumped him after her boyfriend of 10 years proposed…. And what did I get for it..nothing. They just picked right back up with the affair about a month later.
    They really do lose their minds during the limerence that comes during affairs.
    I loved that man deeply and I cried all the way to the lawyers office BUT I will be FREEEEE in the next 30 days!

    • Good for you ….disgrace of a human….actually non human……….enraged is the only word…when you think of these losers….!!!.

  • I’m about 4 years out from infidelity and it continues to astonish me the absolute garbage that cheaters spew. Honestly is there a handbook out there somewhere and a secret handshake? These losers are so predictable.

    However, having said that, I’ve only gained some clarity on cheaters thanks to chumps, chumplady and time. Looking back I was absolutely heartbroken and could not believe he was capable of cheating. But then I read here and realized he was the same loser cheater deadbeat that they all are.

    Dumping a cheater takes a whole sh*t load of mental and physical fortitude, and in time (and with experience) you get to see the cycle BS that cheaters spew. I’m here to tell you that it doesn’t get better with a cheater having some sort of clarity about how shitty they are. Instead, their crap just gets more predictable. What does get better is a cheater free life. No drama, chaos, boozing and screwing around. It’s a win all around.

    Every once in a while when his supply is low, or he’s bored, cheat face creates some wee havoc but I pretty much set my watch to it now and eat the popcorn while he fusses around.

      • You will heal for sure, but it takes effort and yes, time. You will come to see that your cheater is a loser, predictable and a sad creature. I’m sorry you are hurting, but take it a day at a time and build a new life for yourself. Do the things that make you happy and take good care of yourself. You can do this, don’t let that cheating fool take any more of your life.

  • CL, thank you so much for running this column. This was almost exactly my story, and your advice, and that of CN, has been very helpful for me. He was dating her while married to me, he lied over and over again, he acted like a single man, and ultimately I realized that it was not acceptable to me. If it weren’t for CL and CN, I would still be stuck and miserable.

  • Mine was dating her while married to me. He also told me about some of their dates and how fun they were. I was still trying to put our marriage back together. Me to him “well we can do those same things and go on that same date” What the hell was wrong with me???

    I am one year past D Day and 4 months divorced and a year ago this time I was in wreck conciliation. I am traumatized right now. I will get over it, but out sure sucks – the abuse that jerk put me through.

  • “Look, Lady, he’s a flaming asshole, but you have to stop being a chump.”

    So really, this blog is one of the following

  • I haven’t got a problem with believing that they never fucked. Sexless relationships happen. OW could have convinced herself that she was just a friend because a lot of people don’t believe that emotional affairs are real. And she may not even enjoy sex, it could be all about the emotional connection and payoff for her. Or maybe she’s getting sex from someone else and thinks she’s on the moral high ground with this guy by keeping her legs closed with him. Or more likely she’s purposefully stringing him along for kibbles and gifts, and dangling the pussy just out of reach until he’s so stupidly infatuated that he has himself convinced that it’s some kind of fairytale chaste romance happening between them and that keeps the kibbles and gifts flowing.

    He wouldn’t be the first cheater to get chumped.

    • She shut him down when he asked – I’d say it’s him that’s in the wrong here, and she’s probably behaving pretty well.

  • “The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.” – – Martha Stout

    These cheaters lack true connection and empathy. Chumps serve as a utility, much like a dishwasher, car or anything else that can be put to use. The only handbook applicable to these vampires and hyenas is the DSM. Of course we could not imagine seeking out a person that we had repeatedly emotionally/mentally/financially harmed to serve as a balm for our self-inflicted pain/wound. We have a normal range of human emotions – most particularly compassion and empathy. As someone already mentioned, because we fulfilled our purpose in always putting them before ourselves, our own needs and our own best interests, in their minds that’s not something we choose to do, it is who we are. That is our perceived function. It isn’t personal, but it is incredibly abusive. You have to be far enough away from them (NO CONTACT) so that they become no more than an observable phenomenon which you find curious but appalling at the same time. The foothold of recovery begins with no contact and recognizing no matter how much you love someone, you deserve to be respected and honored, just for your humanity alone.

    My Ex put the pork in sad sausage. Throughout our marriage there was always some woman at work whom he elevated to a pedestal (and some of whom with which he presumably was intimate) who would commit some offense and would eventually fall out of favor. The Ex’s true love is money, so he was not inclined to run off with anyone until he was clear of child support obligations and all of his many loves were working stiffs like him, more’s the pity. He would frequently come home with sad stories of how some woman whom he held in high esteem had disappointed him. Not being the jealous type, I just assumed it was normal co-worker drama and sympathized with his plight. Of course, there would always be someone else who would replace them on his “more interesting than my wife” pedestal. It makes me throw up, just a little bit, in my mouth these days.

    That unconditional love stuff is an excuse for inaction or having to make hard choices. In its extreme form, it will have you be complicit in or an accomplice to your own abuse. I have unconditional love for my children – I have still found it necessary to impose consequences for behavior and set expectations and boundaries. I also have unconditional love for myself which means these days you don’t get to treat me like shit and remain in my life. That doesn’t even mean that I have to hate you but you cannot come around me and we’re not friends – and I certainly don’t want to hear about your ups and downs with the OWhore now OWife. Nuh-Uh, please burn in hell while sitting on your throne in the go fuck yourself corner, thank you very much.

    • I love this post!! I didn’t realize the sadz discussions about the drama in coworkers lives were so inappropriate. Now I know he thrives on the dumsels in distress. He knew way too much personal information for just water cooler talk. Yep, mine was a big horn dog throwing his sad sausage story out there hoping to get a bite.

      You know what owhores life is or will be soon. May they both get all the happiness they deserve.

  • My ex Narc kept saying “I’m single.”..News to me , Where was the divorce papers? He was screwing ow whore for 2 years.?? I was in denial.. red flags everywhere but I didn’t want to believe it..:
    Until confronted them both at whores house. They laughed at me & verbally attacked me.
    Served divorce papers 2 weeks later.
    Finally had enough.. heart broken in million pieces but I knew after 35 years, he was a a cruel narc who never loved me.

    Hopefully I will get to meh.. when I don’t know

      • NTMB, It’s all about crap life choices and it’s nothing to do with you. Any time someone directly places themselves into situations that most would recognize as threatening to the primary relationship/marriage (ie texting another you are attracted to, choosing to spend time together, sharing intimate conversations with, talking badly about your SOs, spending time on the computer/cell phone, not planning time together with your SO, and being sketchy as fuck, etc.) that he/she is deliberately sabotaging those close ties. Priorities, right? Falling into bed with someone else never “just happens.” It takes time. It is a CHOICE to go down that path, and cheaters will always be dishonest about what they are doing. Cheaters, unlike Chumps, don’t have very clear boundaries. Incapable of love but always looking for it. Karma right there. I respect vows, mine…and others’. Marriages require work and most relationships have their ups and downs. Cheaters never get this and will never experience life the way we do. They are never invested and people are just objects to them. I do however think men and women can have opposite sex friends but it requires the marriage to have a great deal of trust and communication. Infidelity changed my life but it sure defines what you want in your life, and what you don’t.

        • So well said. My ex said both Ddays “I don’t know how this happened” while sobbing when I confronted him. I hadn’t met CL and CN yet so I was angry and mighty the second time around and called bullshit, but had somewhat bought into this way of thinking of his.

          Now I know how it happened. Maybe he’s not out trolling for sex, but he made a choice over and over with each interaction with his dumsel in distress schmoopies to keep taking the next step. He kept telling me his second schmoopie was ‘innocent in all this’. Uh, no. News flash. She’s a ho that keeps accepting your expensive dinners and trips all while telling you ‘she just wants to be friends’ with you. She knows full well your intentions. And you’re bad mouthing your wife and life to her.

          Have fun with that. If this is all so miserable of an existence to you, go off into the sunset for the twu wuvs. Kids and I are out of here!!

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