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Soul Blazing and Navel Gazing

Once upon a time I eviscerated an execrable HuffPo article  “Is It Time to Change Our Ideas of Adultery and Marriage?”  by “Soul Blazer” Lisa Haisha. Thought it was time for a re-run, as this crazy “let’s change our marriage modality” life coach word salad shit is still popular. Blecch! — Tracy

We should all stop being Pollyannas and rethink our ideas about marriage and cheating, says Lisa Haisha, creator of “SoulBlazing” therapy.

…When you consider the historical context of marriage, isn’t being shocked by adultery a bit of an overreaction?

To those of you paternity checking your children, or who put your feet up in the stirrups for an STD test, or found your 401K spent on hookers — hey, put it in a historical context. Henry VIII had six wives (and a few beheadings) and he wasn’t a fan of marriage and monogamy either. This is bigger than us. Please explain to your heartbroken 9-year-old when she asks why she has to spend Christmas in four places that hey, we are all just victims of an outdated modality. I’m sure she’ll understand.

Adultery isn’t shocking, until the day it happens to you and suddenly it ceases to be an interesting theoretical construct. I would argue the only people who are not shocked by infidelity when it happens to them are people who aren’t that deep to begin with. In other words, Lisa Haisha’s clientele — Hollywood “suits.” (Yes, this is on her website.) Superficial people, people who don’t love with their whole hearts because they had their hearts surgically replaced years ago with some botox-ed, gluten-free, heart-like substance. Savvy media creatures who don’t get chumped, they just rebrand.

Yeah, I’m sure those people aren’t hurt by infidelity one bit.

Before you think Lisa heartless herself, she has a disclaimer that, well, cheating and lying are rather a bummer and uncool.

Of course, no one can deny that when you lie and do something behind another person’s back, you are doing something wrong. You’re breaking an agreement, and that lacks integrity. You’re breaking trust with the other person, which is most definitely hurtful. But in the course of a long term relationship, taking into account the practical realities of our human need to experience life on our own, or through experiences with other platonic or romantic relationships, perhaps a new kind of conversation can unfold with your spouse or partner where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage, so the negative and hidden behaviors associated with adultery don’t take place.

In other words, it’s okay to break someone’s trust because …. blather.

I’ve spent over 20 years as an editor and editors have this no no we call “smothering your verbs.” Lisa has positively pickled hers. Consider this epic run on sentence and tell me if you can figure out WTF she means.

But in the course of a long term relationship, taking into account the practical realities of our human need to experience life on our own, or through experiences with other platonic or romantic relationships, perhaps a new kind of conversation can unfold with your spouse or partner where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage, so the negative and hidden behaviors associated with adultery don’t take place.

I think she’s trying to say it’s okay to cheat and lie if you have a “need to experience life.” (Uh, who doesn’t? The alternative to experiencing life is experiencing death). She gets a little vague about these experiences, except to say they might be platonic! or romantic! But hey, be cool and have a conversation first.

Well, Lisa, I agree with you. People should have honest conversations about the kind of open relationships they want. And here’s an interesting trend over a couple millennia — people don’t do that! Nope, they’ve been partnering up for centuries with all sort of rules and shit. Back in Henry VIII’s day you couldn’t get a divorce unless you created your own church, or orchestrated a beheading. It’s those simpler times I’m sure you long for, Lisa. But Henry VIII had a straightforward conversation — give me a male heir or you’re dead — and fat lot of good it did him.

I don’t know what mythical planet you live on where wives once had multiple husbands — is there any known case of this? But I’ll admit, polygamy has worked pretty well for the patriarchy.

But Lisa, you’re a complete fuckwit if you think people cheat because they don’t have conversations.

I always tell my clients to create a vision plan of what they want their marriage to look like and what they’d both be okay with.

Ask Chump Nation how that’s working for us. Lovely theory, Lisa, But we all thought we had that conversation about what we were okay with — those were our marriage vows. Then we discovered — holy shit! we were the only one playing by that set of rules. We had a conversation with a liar. Newsflash. Cheaters lie, Lisa.

Infidelity is about entitlement. The deceit IS the high. It’s gaining advantage over another person. All the kibbles for me! None for you! Cheaters aren’t having a conversation with you because they don’t want a level playing field. Once you realize that cheating isn’t about self actualization or WTFever it is you Californian life coaches are peddling, this shit is pretty easy to understand. They cheat because they want to. Because they have crap life skills. Because they’re entitled.

However, I really appreciate your vision that we should all be more like Japan.

In fact, I once asked several men why they regularly visited hostess clubs (night clubs that employ female staff to act like “rent-a-girlfriends” to men), and they all said similar sentiments: “My wife is cool with it. That’s our culture. She doesn’t love me either. She’s thrilled that I’m gone and I’m not bugging her for sex or company.”

Two people, who don’t love each other, who are thrilled when the other is gone, and who don’t want sex with one another. Yes, that certainly is rethinking this marriage thing, Lisa.

“Rent-a-girlfriend.” Why of course. Why did we not think of this? I guess we weren’t having enlightened conversations. Why stop there? Why don’t we replace every human relationship that requires commitment with a pay-by-the-hour substitute? Abolish the military! Hire mercenaries! Down with parenthood! Hire rent-a-nanny! Or better yet, just herd the all the small kids into giant feed lots and raise ’em like cattle. (Extra premium for the free-range ones.)

Here I have spent years devoted to the care and feeding of a husband. To think I could’ve been “experiencing life on my own” and renting more entertaining company.

Oh hang on… I have experienced “life on my own” — it was called “being single.” I traded it for the love of a good man and a simple, middle-aged, drama-free, monogamous existence.

Works for me, Lisa. You ought to try it sometime.

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  • “perhaps a new kind of conversation can unfold with your spouse or partner where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage, so the negative and hidden behaviors associated with adultery don’t take place.”

    Yeah, because people who get off on deceiving you (read passive aggressive), live double lives (compartmentalize), put your life at risk by having unprotected sex with sex workers (narcissist), are obviously the kind of people who can have an honest conversation! It has nothing to do with their character… yeah, it’s that pesky outdated model of marriage that has them lying and deceiving! Wow, why didn’t we think of this radical thing called honesty! Oh the brilliance!

    So in other words, if your spouse pulls the bait and switch, be okay with that! Convince yourself you are the new model of the “hip marriage” as to avoid the cognitive dissonance created by your values and accepting your spouses sucky ass behavior! Just get good with it and everything will turn out fine!

    UH, NO THANK YOU! I guess I’ll just remain over here in uncool marriage ideal land! It sounds like I’m talking to my COOL teenagers, who of course know everything, an example being that I’m “uncool”. How old is this author… 12?

      • I must be too Chumpy to decipher that long ass sentence by cool Lisa. The whole intent of the article is to provoke, and she does it with the shallowness her life & social circles represent.

        It’s sad that our most superficial citizens write this crap. The author pretends to be on the cutting edge of something good. She’s not.

        Her writing material reminds me of a canary in the coal mine, warning us that the rules do NOT apply to all, and you are heading towards an explosion – UNLESS you follow the new rule-less ways.

        So please have a “conversation” – and discuss!

  • I think what the article says is “let them eat cake”. Us puritanical chumps should take it and stay married to the whores. Does the article reprimand cheaters that abandon their spouses as well or does it simply put the onus on the betrayed?

    Btw, early, I was also accused of being to perfect by daddy’s girl. I mean, she knew people who: fucked their brother in laws, fucked the cousins, fucked 2 men the same day, fucked…and she wasn’t that bad. I had thought we knew the people up to that point and she got violent when I asked, “what kind of trash are you friends with?”

  • In journalism school, I had a professor who taught me to avoid sugar-coating, apologist, pansy-ass terms like “race issues,” “racialist,” or “interpretations of race.” He told me to call a spade a spade and use the correct terms: “racism” and “racist.”

    With that lesson in mind, I read this and shake my head. Adultery, by definition, is “negative and hidden behaviors”…aka, fucking a third party and lying about it, among other “negatives.” These behaviors are not “associated with” adultery. They ARE adultery.

    But Lisa Haisha would prefer to direct our attention away from that fact and to focus on the softer, more benign aspects of adultery–the ones that are fun for the cheater–to meet the “human need to experience life on our own.” Oh, wait, that phrase is also sugar-coating, apologist, and pansy ass.

    This woman needs a writing class!!!

    • She doesn’t just need a writing class, she needs a 2×4-scale reality check. She’s a blithering idiot. Cheaters don’t want to give up their advange by lowering themselves to honesty. That would require humility, which is SO much more fun when it’s heaped solely on a chump.

      I used to complain about my ex’s lack of authenticity. I finally realized that being a lying, cheating manipulator and bully IS his authentic self. And that’s the problem that Ms. Haisha either ignores or of which she is totally ignorant: you can’t have an honest conversation with someone who is authentically dishonest. It’s like an eagle and a fish discussing what’s for dinner. There is no scenario in which our friend the fish is not on the menu.

      • I used to complain about my ex’s lack of authenticity. I finally realized that being a lying, cheating manipulator and bully IS his authentic self. And that’s the problem that Ms. Haisha either ignores or of which she is totally ignorant: you can’t have an honest conversation with someone who is authentically dishonest.

        Well said! This exactly explains why it’s pointless to sit down to have an honest discussion with your Cheater. They can’t because they’re not honest. That’s who they are.

        • +1000
          And Free Vix this is the analogy I’ve been searching for
          “you can’t have an honest conversation with someone who is authentically dishonest. It’s like an eagle and a fish discussing what’s for dinner. There is no scenario in which our friend the fish is not on the menu.”
          It’s perfect

        • My brain registers this fact…that you can’t have an honest conversation with them. But I still finding myself rehearsing the conversations I want to have. It is like all of these words are bottled up in me and I WANT to be heard. And I want to tell him off. And I desperately want to just get them out of my head so that I have room for better things.

          • yes, yes I want to SAY THE TRUTH TO HIM even just once!

            Like as part of the divorce proceedings, I get to tape his fucking mouth and tell him off AND he has to recap what I said so I know he’s not tuning me out. And trust me, I can spit it out in under 2 minutes.

            Alternatively, give me one free slap in his face. Lisa is aggressively ignorant, which is the worst kind of fool.

          • I did too. I said all I had to say until I didn’t have anything more to say. And it made exactly zero difference in how my ex behaves or perceives what he did. I’m glad I said it all, but I can see how much it was an utter waste of breath.

          • Journaling really helped me with this. I can scream, rant, drop some of the meanest expletives I can think of, and the best part was that I could read it again over and over!

        • Well said!
          I am brand new here (yesterday) and this article was perfectly timed for me. After facing a heavy dose of reality I came to the conclusion that an approach very similar to this article was worth trying. I determined that it would be best for everyone (who will be directly affected by my choices) and maybe in an alternate universe this concept could even work. But not here, not with a bold faced liar.

          I am very grateful for everyone’s comments in this thread. I feel like this just woke me up with a bucket of cold water. Not pleasant, but an improvement over the bad dream I was having.

          I don’t know what to do, but I know I won’t be wasting my time trying to have honest conversations with a liar and setting up respect based agreements with someone who has no respect. That dillusion has ended, now to meet up with reality again. I suppose taking reality in doses is as good of a way as any.

          • Welcome, TruthisaFriend. ‘Setting up respect based agreements with someone who has no respect” – very well said. That is exactly what it is right there.

      • Right there with you Calamity Jane, coffee up my nose funny… And yep Tempest, you, as so many other times, have made my day :)!

        • Totally and completely OT…

          Tracy i dont know where in texas you and mr. Chumplady reside, but please be safe during this horrible time with Hurricane Harvey. Also, I just read on my newsfeed that an explosion at an ammonia/chemical plant has occurred.

          Please be safe and i know others will join me in daying prayers for all those affecfed in Texas.

      • Go ahead, make my day. But I need that sip of coffee I just sprayed, so avert your eyes while I lick my desk.

      • Or maybe she needs to have her own infidelity experience in which she s the unsuspecting chump blindsided by her trusted partner who loves her but isn’t “in” love anymore?

  • Yeah. My SIL said “communication is key”. In which I replied ” yes, it would have been nice if he told me he was cheating on me 17 years ago” but I guess he couldn’t communicate that (I wonder why) and that’s why he feels “we grew apart”.

    • “Grew apart.” That’s one of the classic lines, sweetChumpgirl. It’s so universally used and accepted that no one stops to ask what it means…or ask why one of the two people who allegedly “grew apart” stayed faithful.

      You know when I began to “grow apart”? The day I told my wife we were getting divorced. I’ve been growing, apart from my ex wife, since that day. THAT is “growing apart”!!

      • Nailed it, JC! That “we grew apart” bullshit just pisses me off. It’s hard to “grow together” if one person is communicating exclusively with a third person and neglecting the marriage! Wtf-ever.

      • “We grew apart” and “we weren’t happy” are probably the 2 most popular excuses for a divorce from a cheater that you’ll hear out there. Nice and obtuse.

        Of course it sounds better than “my spouse found out that I was sleeping with somebody at work/from the gym/etc.” or “my spouse found out that I was hiding money from them” or “I convinced my married COW to leave their spouse for me” or whatever the actual reality was.

        Then again, honesty isn’t exactly their strong suit.

        • “We grew apart,” “we weren’t happy,” “we weren’t getting along,” these lines are what the cheaters uses to avoid responsibility while placing at least half of the blame on the Chump. Change the we to “I,” I grew fond of screwing whores, I wasn’t happy, whores are more fun. I wasn’t easy to get along with, I didn’t want a mature relationship, I wanted to screw whores.
          Replace the “We”to “I” and complete the sentence with the truth.

              • BAHAHA!!! Perfect response, Aletheia!

                I usually respond, “His girlfriends didn’t like me.” I don’t recall where I got it from, but probably from Chump Nation. 😀

              • Aletheia ** YES **

                IF one more idiot says “communication is key” – I will say ether “actually, HONEST communication is key”.

                Or just “yes, but he lied” — turns out dishonest communication isn’t really “key” to anything but cheating and divorcing.

            • Mine loves to say “It takes two to tango.” He hates dancing which makes the fact that he says this even more ridiculous. Bottom line is that it is just a way to insinuate that you were equally responsible for the marriage not working out.

              • Wasn’t the tango a dance developed in brothels? Therefore, doesn’t that phrase itself imply that shenannigans are involved?

      • Yes J.C.- grew apart , in the same vein, my mil likes to tell people her golden child and feeling it are splitting up. That gives me the image of a zipper with both sides falling away equally. I however see it as he abandoned me for another woman and I was not consulted in the least. That picture to me looks like someone yanked on one side of the seam while the other remained firmly in place- hardly a split but rather a rip.

        • Just came to me on the grew apart theory that there may be some truth there. I grew up and cheater didn’t.

      • Yes the growing apart line is really annoying. I would say my x and I grew apart. It’s easy to grow apart and be unhappy when you have another woman on the side. I knew he was distancing himself and none of my attempts to grow back together were working. Now I know why.

        • The line I always got was “We aren’t compatible.”

          Yup. I try and put our marriage first, and you always put yourself first. Definitely incompatible!

          How stupid. EVERY two people are “incompatible” — until they love each other, give each other grace, appreciate their differences and find ways to work through them. Ironically, it’s exactly that process that strengthens a relationship and makes love fought for so beautifully sweet. So grateful to be experiencing this beautiful incompatibility with my wonderful new man. <3

          Ex-hole is now struggling to find "compatibility" with a strange pussy smorgasbord. He seems to think that soul compatibility starts with sexual compatibility. Hasn't seemed to figure out that any penis fits in any vagina and compatibility is more about good character than anything else.

          Gawd, I must have used that stupid fucking word thirty times in this post. And every time it makes me throw up into my mouth just a little bit. Sorry. 🙁

          • How come they can’t realize that a hole is just a hole? It’s the rest of the body parts, like the mind and heart, that really mean something and will sustain during the hard times. Any old port in a storm is what I said to my cheating hub. He’s a miserable covert narc out to cause me as much damage as possible cos I said no to his REALLY! WONDERFUL! idea to let him become polyamory…so he could have his PORTS all over but still have a home to return to. And I said NO. And the rage never ended.

              • My husband is fighting ANY/ALL spousal support, and we were married 35 years. I put that asshole through medical school and beyond, and raised our 3 kids like a single parent.

                And his rage is BAFFLING to me. Why is HE mad at ME?? He cheated — and lied about huge issues, for at least 10 months.

                Looking back, I have a ton of red flags I was blind to, before. But I’m awake now.

                I want him to want to come back, I don’t want him. I just want to know that he knows that he lost a loyal loving funny smart wife, with character, and our 3 children. For something so much less…

          • I loved that you said this MGM! I feel the same way! Congrats on finding someone who is working on your incompatibilities with you instead of without you!

      • I tell people we “grew apart” because we had different hobbies–mine were running and swimming and his were hookers and tax evasion.

        • Ha. I think I should start telling people this Chickynot. My hobbies are painting and school.His hobbies are whores and fvcking over his wife n kids.

          • In the marriage, we were a team who used our strengths to complement each other.

            For instance, I outsourced arcane medical knowledge and mowing the lawn, to the DOCTOR

            and the DOCTOR outsourced compassion, character and loyalty – to ME.

        • My hobbies are working, grocery shopping, budgeting, cleaning, cooking, doing school work with the kid and sleeping. See how boring and passionless I am? Spend all my free time sleeping just to get a couple hours in. Wish I had someone to help me enough to give me time to have a passion at all. I am always so tired and grumpy. He said he would really like someone with passions (that word makes me want to puke) and someone to be a team with.

          • When you need time for yourself find a small space in the house for only you. When mine were little I hid in the laundry room. Lol trust me, painting was my passion before kids. When my kids were little I barely had the time. I’m almost an empty nester now and I found my passion again. It never truly goes away! Your husband was an ass for saying that to you. He never deserved you, StaryEye!!!!

          • Stary, don’t fall for it. I pursued a passion while working and taking care of kids, and spouse blamed THAT for our problems. I was investing in my passion instead of him. I gave up said passion, and now I’m boring, too. Boring home makers for the win!

    • I don’t understand this at all. Yeah, if they gave one iota of a shit, they would have communicated the problems clearly themselves and/or done something about it WITH you, rather than behind your back. X was undermining the marriage the entire time with hookers, and yet I’m sure blames me with extra contempt on the side for not fawning all over him while he was in the years-long process of checking out. They truly think they can have their cake and eat it too.

    • My ex mused about how wonderful it is that he and the OW communicate. “We don’t fight. We communicate.” I asked him why, if he is capable of this level of communication, did he choose to apply this skill with his mistress and not his wife? And aren’t we communicating right now? I got a blank stare.

      Affairs involve an high level of intentional miscommunication or withholding communication. There’s nothing to work with there when one person is talking into the wind and the other if off screwing someone else.

      • Intent, yes. They will communicate as effectively as it will serve them. It has nothing to do with the other person. They get tired of an OW/OM? I bet that their capability (or more likely the capability of the OW/OM, since the blame is usually pawned off) to communicate will start slipping…

      • I don’t think they communicate al all. They just say the same thing and believe that what communication is. As soon as they don’t agree, cheaters will be back to their inability to communicate.

      • That’s because all they had to “communicate” about was where or when they were going to meet up, go to lunch, screw around, etc. That stuff’s easy. Of course they had good “communication.”

        And eventually they got to go home to people who were doing the real work of life and holding down the fort for them.

        It’s a little harder to “communicate” when you’re paying bills, raising children, dealing with family issues, dealing with in-laws, keeping up with kids’ schedules, etc. Real life is harder, and thus sometimes so is the communication. But that’s hard for them to see when they’re living in Fantasyland.

        • Bwahahaha! Thanks for that. When I asked Ex-hole why he shared everything with the whore instead of with me, his reply was “It’s easier to communicate with her.” Yeah, because there are zero responsibilities attached to that communication!! Smh.

    • I am 11 days away from my 3 year D-dayaversary, completely at meh, and yet every time I hear “grew apart” as an excuse for cheating, have a strong desire to shove the offender into a wood chipper. Grrrr…

      • Based on the reasoning of Ms. Haisha, I think this would be an acceptable (and, moreover, highly evolved) course of action for you to take, Tempest.

      • Exactly!!!!! I looked at him and almost tore his eyes out! I actually told him ” we grew apart because you fvcked other ppl for 17+yrs”.

  • I had multiple conversations over the years with my lying, cheating STBX that cheating was a deal breaker. He seemed to have listened to it, decided he would cheat to break us up, but conveniently forgot to tell me about it. Yes, communication is the problem. They don’t communicate; they lie, cheat and steal.

    • Ugh yes. When I think back on all the conversations I had with Edgar Suit where we discussed how people who cheated were short sighted to not take into account all the experiences and memories that only a couple shared – birth of children, loss of family members, etc., How all of those intimate experiences and memories you share with only that one person would be lost if you cheat on your spouse. When I think back on all those conversations and now realize he. was. cheating. while. he. was. saying. those. things. It’s mind boggling, really. That’s all I need to remember to know there is nothing human inside the Edgar Suit.

      • Beth, exactly, what you posted have always been my thoughts when hearing of a marriage breaking up, how sad, throwing away years of memories, special moments that can only be shared and appreciated within a family, the aftermath, how sad for their children having their lives implode, time split between parents. I too discussed these thoughts with X when ever we heard of someone splitting up. I would feel so badly for the children and be thankful knowing I married someone trustworthy.
        From what I remember he would agree with me, which gave me a boost of confidence in our marriage knowing we had the same values.
        Now I know how much of an evil monster he really is, X agreed with me only because he knew its’ what I wanted to hear.

        • I think its more sinister than ‘what you wanted to hear ‘ brit. I think they pick up on what your worst fears or moral line in the sand is and actually get pleasure from shitting all over it and feeling smug they know something you dont while stringing you along like they are so virtuous. My npd crazy used to retell stories of his wayward friends extra marital exploits and tut away. He must have imagined he was giving me some coded message of confession. They have twisted and justified so many strands of lies and manipulations already they’re not going to come clean all of a sudden. Disorded is the only explaination of their behaviour.

      • I love your MiB reference! Awesome! I did the same. 22 yrs( of cheating, I’m sure) and he had the audicity to say that “I know how you hold onto the past and the memories”. That being the reason why “he couldn’t” communicate.

  • But, but, but….she’s so Enlighted and Evolved! My ex ate this stuff up when we were wreckonciling. Would he read anything about the effects of cheating? Naw, “all they do is bash the cheater” says him special self. He was different. He had valid reasons to cheat….blah, blah, blah. And him was now Enlightened and Evolved. Him and whory thought we should be all into polyamory ‘ cause that’s what Evolved special people do.

    “You are hurt and angry, Special Snowflake ha!, well it’s your own fault because you are not evolved enough to understand the specialness of me and whory”. Well, now those special, special enlightened and evolved creatures have each other.

    In the end, I’m happier being my “unevolved” , boring, practical self far away from their crazy. Took me 2 years to figure it out that I was worth more than the shit they were peddling- but finally broke free and its fabulous not to feel worthless and not enough any more.

    • bash (v.) definition: hold a cheater accountable for lying and sneaking around in order to get away with breaking promises and putting the person you are betraying at risk of disease and financial ruin

      • Yes, we cruelly attack the poor cheating timid forest creatures and their wittle feelings get hurt. Hey, join the hurt feelings party! I’ve tried to tell cheater X point blank that I don’t want to make small talk with him at weekend pick up because he is either trying to be friendly/pretending all is fine now or subtly throwing a pity party for himself. News flash: this is your doing!!! ASS.

    • Hahahah, mine was also a better type of cheater! He would rant and rant about the “self righteous” on the internet that I must have been reading, and how they demonized the poor sad whore and wanted for revenge. It took me some time to see he was ranting because I WAS ACTUALLY a better human being that he is, and he could not stand it.

      He also tried the trick of making me feel so ignorant and the full opposite of sophisticated, suggesting my Catholic upbringing was the reason of my reaction. That he thought our relationship was “more” (he never said more what), and that the whore obviously had seen more world than me because she was keen on a trio. Yeah, all of that. I am a better human being anyway, and after talking to his family, I am not a broken toy, hahaha.

      Good riddance.

    • I got a similar line when I was raging post D-day: “We all make our own happiness, Free Vix.” I asked him if that was the case, why did he blame me for making him so unhappy that he had to cheat? Cue deflection, obfuscation, denial, blame, and the shark-eye stare. Rules, causality, and kibbles only flow one way.

  • I did the whole conversation through pre-marital counseling, both with a secular organization and with a religious one. In hindsight, he lied because that is what he had to do to get a wife to serve him. You can talk until you are blue in the face, if the one of the two don’t mean what they say, the talk is pointless.

    • Yep. Mine lied in the premarital counseling we were required to attend in order to get married at the historic church I wanted. He was with the OW the whole time, and bald face lied to both me and the minister, to the extent of even describing why he had previously attempted to cheat, how he had grown from it, and how much it showed him he loved me. Then I’m sure he took a bathroom break and sent the OW a dick pic from the church.

      Communication IS NOT POSSIBLE with a liar.

      • And mine lied during “post-affair” (cough!) marriage counseling, where we tried to address her supposed unhappiness, and the therapist said to me, “She’s stopped cheating and apologized. What more can she do?”

        After I decided to get divorced, I attended one last session with wife, while behind the scenes I arranged finances, researched divorce, etc. At that session, I got so frustrated that I listed my wife’s continuing cheating and lying to me and the MC, given I had just received a boatload of evidence days earlier. I turned to the MC and said, “How is this supposed to work if she’s lying the entire time?”

        The MC gave the same blank stare I’d received from my wife for months, realizing she’d been had, and then turned to my wife and calmly stated, “Yes, I can’t help if you’re not honest with me.”

        No fucking shit, MC.

        A better response would have been, “Get out of my office! You’ve wasted my time and your money. I have better things to do than be tricked and manipulated by you. You have no desire to fix your marriage. I help people who want help, not people trying to keep up appearances.”

        My MC sucked, but I can’t lay it all in her. She assumed truth as a starting point, as apparently do most people who think about infidelity in the abstract. They just can’t wrap their minds around the fact that lying is a deep and sustained character flaw, not a temporary moral lapse that conveniently stops just in time for them to work their “magic.”

        • Your MC wasn’t going to tell you to get out of her office because you two were money. It’s all a cottage industry, from the MC to the divorce lawyer to the Divorce judges. All of them need it to drag on so their pockets can be lined.

          • Kite
            It can appear as a cottage industry. I’m a therapist and a chump so I’m upfront about having people lie to me. I also had a hellush divorce that involved multiple lawyers and professional supports such as forensic accountants. My lawyer was expensive and she carefully explained all my options. In particular when it was worth my money to make money in the end via a solid JOD.

      • It is impossible to make a person understand something when their paycheck depends on them not understanding.

        Always remember the simplest explanation is usually the truth.

        You. Are. A. Paycheck. Whether its monitary or image or kibbles. You provide a payoff for them, and their not understanding you and your pesky facts and feelings imperil their payday.

        Nuff. Said.

        • I should’ve went down further in the comments before I left a comment. Exactly, they need that money to keep coming in. That’s why that one video on facebook keep making its rounds. About a man trying to break up with his therapist when it is obvious both are bored to death and getting no where. Then the therapist is able to hook the client back in.

  • Perelism.

    These people need to get clear about the terminology they use. If they are trying to express that the evidence at hand thus far suggests that human biology favors a preference for novelty when it comes to sexual attraction, I can swallow that. Our biology favors all kinds of uncivilized behaviors.

    Our desire to live in civil society requires us to control of those behaviors. This is where things like morals and ethics and integrity rule the day. Controlling our sexual behaviors in compliance with those values is no different from controlling our violent, emotional, and hunger/thirst based behaviors.

    An honest person who wants to pursue sexual novelty isn’t cheating because the person isn’t saying he is observing one set of rules while behaving covertly in order to “win”. It’s not infidelity when a person states their intentions then does exactly what he said he would do. There’s no deception there when he is faithful to his word.

    Adultery has a different construct, but I think we can generally accept that forost people, the term is based on a monogamous definition for marriage and requires that the person is sexually acting outside that monogamy. That is unfaithful and it is cheating.

    Deception to get away with betrayal of a sexual agreement is extremely abusive behavior, plain and simple. That’s not our biology any more than our base violent nature makes beating the weak and killing those who take our food our nature. Infidelity is cruelty, plain and simple, and the logic that condones it also condones the others.

    • Ami, YES! It’s not like we don’t or can’t understand human nature — we are simply choosing to live civilly, as decent human beings to one another. Then there is the honesty component. Don’t want to be “tied down” in an “unnatural” sexual construct? DON’T GET MARRIED. Why make promises to someone only to deceive and betray them? Probably related to one of those other “natural” human instincts of gimmie gimmie, i.e. as much cake as they can grab (don’t like that flavor? try another!)

      If we were all living in our natural, animalistic states, I’m pretty sure I would have located a blunt object and did what came “naturally” after finding out my X undermined our marriage and changed the course of my entire life.

    • If we all gave into “human nature” society would fall apart. Human nature is selfish. Compassion, empathy and caring for others is “evolved”. Falling back on human nature is a sign of weakness.

    • Before getting married (cheater pressed for years) I was really trying to work out whether monogamy is a reasonable expectation to have in a long term marriage because of biology and the realities of what I saw around me. It was CHEATER who convinced me that he would never want anyone else, that he wanted to grow old with me, that he’d never loved anyone like me. Only to find out he had already cheated when we married and continued to over years and children. He wanted a wife and he said what he needed to get one. I hate home for convincing me of something beautiful only to destroy it in the most painful way.

    • It’s potty training, plain and simple. Biologically, our digestive systems seek release whenever and wherever we feel the urge. Civilization requires that we control that urge and seek relief in society-approved places.

      Anyone who argues that cheating is a biological imperative should be totally comfortable with me shitting on his living room floor.

    • Or divorce BEFORE you start? (My ex seems to be in full hunting ‘let’s go back to college sleeping around’ mode. The whore was just the first one, and since she’s his cousin, a broken toy, nobody with who he would want to have a relationship anyway, she’s cool with be a fuckbuddy when he goes to his country. They are revolting).

    • But, then who would make their Din-din? And make sure they are never alone? And get those taxes done? Surely you can’t expect the special one to take care of themselves, they have to be a free spirit!
      Not that there’s anything wrong with being free, I am myself now 😉

  • I can’t even begin to tell you how much I love this!!!

    It’s baffles me to the Nth degree how people actually think like this!

    I spent 13 years with exh#2, I thought it would be forever. I thought I could trust him. I thought he would *never* lie, cheat, steal from me. I thought he would never leave me.

    I thought wrong.

    Golly gee, I guess I should have had a *conversation* with him. Silly me, I thought our wedding vows covered that.

  • Lisa Haisha, I have a “life experience” I would have done anything to avoid due to the abuse of serial, secret adultery: my precious, innocent newborn daughter spending the first 10 days of her life in the NICU being treated for a potentially life-threatening sexually transmitted virus.

    Having a one day old baby tested for STDs does not feel like a very “practical reality” to me. I would not wish this living hell on any person.

    • Having found out about what my X was doing not long before her first birthday, reading your story is making me cry. I am so sorry you had to endure this, and your poor, innocent daughter…there are just no words for the sadness and the anger evoked by such a horrible thing.

          • ChumpOnIt, thank you so much for your kind words and support. Although it is something that I think about every day, my daughter’s birth experience isn’t exactly something that can be “shared” easily. This is one of the only places I feel safe. Thank you and hugs back to you and your daughter!

      • Thank you, Tempest. My daughter is now a very healthy and happy baby girl. Ultimately, we both ended up with a clean bill of health, which is something I will forever be so grateful and appreciate of. However, the experience was traumatic and still haunts me. Thank heavens for CL and CN.

        • I am so relieved! It is a horrible experience you both had to live through. I hope distance and freedom from the cheater mutes some of the haunting. Hugs.

        • Stalked

          I am so saddened by your story. I was in a similar boat with my baby boy, so I know how you feel. There are no words that can express this anguish and fear that you had to endure. I am so happy to hear your precious girl is thriving now despite what the sperm donor’s selfish behavior might have caused. He’s a parasite, a reptilian creature who needs to be crushed underfoot!

          My psychopathic monster has been, unbeknownst to me, spreading his vile disease (one of them) for 17 years!!!! I thought it was a recent STD, but no, his sick incestuous sister revealed the truth.
          He cried, begged me to help him with my naturopathic medicine and healing modalities. He put on a great show, really. He seemed like he was in shock – finding out he was infected. No, he knew all along.

          I am so fucking sick of people claiming that we can’t be monogamous because it’s not human nature blah blah blah. As we chumps know, we did it easily, therefore it can be done. It’s called will power. It’s called respect. It’s called being evolved and having empathy.

          I would LOVE to give in to my baser instinctual urges and bash my monster’s brains in. I’d love to go on a rampage and torture him and his KNOWING OWomen/men (plural!!!). Because I am a moral, decent, thinking person I do not simply give in to my animalistic urges. Actually, I don’t have the urges to cheat, lie, deceive, and manipulate. So I’m not quite sure how these freaks of nature manage to do the unthinkable.

          This Lisa, poor excuse for a woman and writer, needs to get her heart crushed and mangled. Methinks her lack of compassion and insight reveal that she’s another narcissist in sheeps clothing. What a dumbass.

  • Vision plan, my ass. My cheating ex husband and I did a family MISSION STATEMENT. Fat lot of good it did me.

    Problem is, that liars lie.

    • Yup. We did date nights that included the writing down of goals and other thoughts on the relationship (his idea, which I appreciated at the time when I thought it actually meant something). So this begs the question…did we fail the test? (Scoff)

    • We had our marriage motto: Full disclosure and complete honesty. I guess I was the only one who took them seriously.

      • His “rules” were:
        1.) never lie
        2.) if you are ever tempted to cheat- talk to me first so we can “work” on our marriage.

        Yep, I was the only one following the rules. Yet, he didn’t ” lie” to me- he just didn’t tell me.So, in his little reptilian brain, that absolves him from breaking rule 1. On rule 2, they weren’t “affairs” they were ” indiscretions”. Blow jobs don’t count as cheating, dontcha know. Absolved from rule 2. Until the last whore, met on AFF ( used only to flirt according to his discovery-snort). Where they had been going at it for months- then he confessed cause he’s a “good man”. Rotflmao! Really the stupidity of these creatures is mind boggling!

  • Me thinks Lisa should keep her ” let him eat cake ” article to herself then burn it! Obviously she hasn’t any idea of what two people who love, honor & respect each other except in marriage.

    She’s telling the cheaters if this world, it’s no so bad ..adulterous acts are just human experiences to practice in their own.

    She’s an ass hole…😡

  • People who say, “communication is key” have never communicated with a pathological liar. They have never been gas lighted. They have never had someone look them deep into their eyes, hold their hand, put their arms around their waist, draw them close, whisper in their ear – and tell a bold face lie. The person who says, “communication is key” has never had someone lie even when straight up proof to the contrary is right there in front of them.
    The person who said, “communication is key” has never believed the words of someone they loved, even when your said otherwise, only to find the evidence completely to the contrary.
    In fact, ‘communication’ is the last thing you want to have with a cheater.

    • Yes, coolbreezeout. Words mean something to some people (i.e. when saying someone is as good as their word…in the positive sense), but when it comes to cheaters/liars, talk is oh so cheap. So in that case, what good is communication other than for show? Acta non verba.

    • My ex has still not “communicated to me” what he has done. Kept his six year affair (after 35 years of marriage) a secret all the while I was putting up with all his medical problems…even putting daily eye drops in for him until the day HE ABANDONED ME! He is so confident about what he has done, that he still has not introduced the whore to my 33 year old son (two years since he left) and tells people that he lives with his mother. IN other words, he lies to both his sons about where he lives. (More communication.) He also told my son that “he only has one life to live” and he needs to concentrate on HIS happiness. What kind of husband and father says these kind of things?

      I have since learned that he is a classic Sociopath and that I have PTSD from dealing with his serious personality defect for so long. So many of the things that all of you are saying resonate with me. I am so sorry that we have to go through this, but, we are all better off without them!

  • She’s ignorant.

    The lack of communication is on the part of the Cheater. That’s the whole damn problem. They DON’T communicate with their partner; they plaster the facade. They communicate partial truths or lies to OWs/OMen – who generally assume they’ve been as forthright with their spouse as well – which is totally ineffective if the idea is to incite actual change… because the person who needs to know is the person involved, not a third party.

    But no… Cheaters like to emotionally masturbate with their fling. They like their shallow puddles of “intimacy.”

    • “Cheaters like to emotionally masturbate with their fling. They like their shallow puddles of “intimacy.””

      Great way to express their capacity for love. Nothing too real — they either don’t know how, or it doesn’t “get them off” enough.

    • I mept begging for coomunication. All u got was “nothing is wrong”. After I found out about the affair I begged for communication again. Just to be told that he had no idea what interested me in life. Ummm…..maybe if we had communicated you would have known. Smh. Word salad at it’s finest.

  • Okay, enough with the “They do it in Japan so it must be cool” bulls*&%. I also lived in Japan for a little while and unlike the author of the article I recognize that it doesn’t make me enough of an expert to comment on the status of marriage there. Isn’t this the same bull that Esther Perel pulls? “You should be cool with blurred boundaries, it’s so European.”

  • When else is dishonesty considered “hip?”

    Let’s try these on for size:

    “Bernie Madoff is soooooo trendy for bilking people out of their life savings!!”
    “Yo, that babe is dope (teenager parlance); she cheated on her SATs!”
    “I’m swooning over the hipness of that congressman who lied to the grand jury! Heart be still!”
    “See that guy over there; he knocked down a tourist on Bourbon Street and stole her purse. So swank!”

    • If he had just taken the time to communicate with the woman about his need for her purse maybe he wouldn’t have needed to knock her down to get it. She would have understood that his need to have her purse was just human nature and handed it over with a smile because she wants to be cool.

  • The point of getting married is for two people to commit themselves to each other as life partners through good times and bad. When you get married you are promising that your spouse and any children you produce together are your first priority. It is a way of assuring security to the family and providing a stable environment in which to raise children. Adultery, however, diverts time and resources to somebody outside of the family. This hurts the family. Causing your family harm is not ethical behavior, nor is it “enlightened”.

    • I should note that STBX probably doesn’t get that it wasn’t just me he wronged (not that it would make it ok if it was just me because I really didn’t deserve it either), because he still hangs around a few days a week pretending to be a Dad who cares, but being in a relationship outside of our family still hurts his kids too. Any time and money spent on Schmoopie is not benefiting his kids. His affair and discard of me caused destabilization of the foundation of the kids home life. Two households cost more than one so fewer resources for the kids. Also, witnessing how badly one parent was willing to hurt the other for selfish reasons is psychologically harmful because it causes them to question right and wrong and what is/isn’t real in their own family relationships. Who can you trust anymore? If Dad stopped loving Mom for being imperfect how can I be sure he won’t stop loving me? Very damaging.

      • So well stated, Chumpinrecovery.

        I’ve done pretty well with Gray Rock, but on the occasion that I can’t quite achieve it, it’s usually because STBX is acting as if our kids shouldn’t even be bothered by the horrendous implosion and the loss of their family unit.

        He devastated our kids (and me) so he could, pathetically, stroke his ego. So revolting … and anger inducing.

      • ChumpinRecovery–you are so right. Independent of the divorce, the infidelity has a substantial impact on children. My DD16 is NC with her sperm donor. Shortly after my divorce, I invited a college friend to stay with me, who is a good person, but did violate my daughter’s personal space by going into her bedroom to drink his coffee. Afterwards, she accused me of “letting two untrustworthy people” into the house.

        Baffled, I asked, “Who was the other person?”

        Answer: her own father.

  • Your word is your honor.
    If you make a promise, it would be wrong to break that promise.
    Take accountability for your words and actions.
    Honesty is the best policy.
    If you want to be trusted, you have to be trustworthy.

    Simple right? So simple, virtually all cultures teach their children these basic principles.

    Yet, for the transcendent ethical ignoramus and minions who spew endless justifications for cheating, nothing is simple. By making morality relative, and extra “complicated,” anything is justifiable.

    Humans are social creatures. Basic, moral principles are essential to a well-functioning family … and well-functioning families are essential to a well-functioning society. This is not new information.

    “Mankind are not held together by lies. Trust is the foundation of society. Where there is no truth, there can be no trust, and where there is no trust, there can be no society. Where there is society, there is trust, and where there is trust, there is something upon which it is supported.”
    — Frederick Douglass, “Our Composite Nationality” (1869), Boston

  • I think the question/challenge just begging to be placed before this Lisa Haisha is: …then why marry?

    She seems to simply begin with the premise of a hypothetical typical marriage and then goes on to inform us that the problem with this marriage (that is, this centuries old institution) is that it didn’t begin with a prior conversation wherein the “rules” were set codifying the partners’ entitlement to “experience life” however unforeseen whims and circumstances affect them.

    Given this envisioned construct, why would two people get so married? Such a conversation and set of rules (i.e. no rules) would obliterate most of the essence of what marriage is. But for Lisa H, apparently, when she looks across the landscape of human reality she sees absolutely zero meaningful enduring connection. It doesn’t exist for her except as a high sounding platitude, or at best an anomaly. So she appears to think that she is prescribing finally making marriage real…according to the reality she has experienced. Removing all the foolish pretension. Someone should tell her she’s only ever looked at the swamp as she surveyed humanity’s landscape. She should turn around and she the mountain range behind her.

    This scenario really is as old as Plato’s Republic and the allegory of the cave. Narcissistic people really don’t see reality, human reality, in its completeness – they think they do, they simply know they do, and then in order to square their limited grasp of reality with what they regularly hear referenced by the rest of us they are forced to privately believe the rest of us are fools because the things we seek and adhere to simply don’t exist. They go through life solidifying this view of the world and others in a sedimentary way, each new errant conclusion layered upon the prior, until as even young adults the bedrock is set: there is no meaning, there are only petty highs, there is a preponderance of fools whom you must superficially appease who actually believe there’s more. They even redefine the words in our language to fit their developmentally stunted experience of reality. For example, they see and hear us reference “shame” or being ashamed. They see the outward signs of it…the head downcast, the quiet demeanor, etc and they think “aha, I know that one” and from there on forward they apply the term to themselves and actually believe that what others are experiencing in “shame” is the self-pity they are limited to and which they misidentified it as. The world of the disordered is like this. They are like people who can only see in four primary colors and have to somehow answer for themselves what the hell the rest of us are talking about as we look at a sunset over an ocean. We are nonsensical fools they conclude.

    Lisa H has unwittingly provided an insight here into how disordered people see reality. If she were asked point blank “well then, why get married at all – if all it is is a home base from which to continue to serve yourself whatever you want in the given moment?” she’d stifle the initial reflex to say “exactly” and then flounder around for some contorted answer that might appease the “fool” who is asking her the question.

  • I had the conversation of open marriage with my stbxh during my wreckonciliation. He balked at the idea….now I know that my chumpy ass wasnt thinking clearly. He wanted a free pass BUT I WASNT ALLOWED TO THINK THAT WAY. Ya. I’ve wised up and got back on cl. And am moving on

  • Well taking her advice, I’m taking into account the practical realities of my human need to experience life on my own. 19 months since I kicked the lying, cheating thief to the curb and go live with MOW/prostitute.

    I’m experiencing a perhaps a new kind of conversation with XH called No Contact where I clearly communicate I no longer wish to have the negative, hidden and painful consequences associated with adultery, financial theft and living with a narcissist.

    My new enlightened life is oh so cool and hip cheater free.

    The ironic part is now he wants to communicate and triangulate? Yeah, talk to my attorney yo! How’s that new enlightened life going dude?

      • Done and done ✅ Temptest! Got everything I could of what was left after scortched earth. He’s going to be working into his 70’s; poor cheater 😭 whaaaaaa…

        MOW prostitute, now pregnant with tru luv child (aka solidify the misdeed with a child cause everyone knows this proves you can’t stop tru SUV). She didn’t get the sugar Daddy she thought she was getting. Just another sparkly turd narcissist she’s chaining herself to. Consequences, karma and real life are weighing down on them now. Boo hoo…

        How’s are your life goals, your happiness and communication going now cheaters? Watch your backs…once a cheater, always a cheater.

        I’m free and clear of their debris field and the view @ 30,000 feet looks marvelous cheater free.

          • Me too Temptest! The non back-room-of a massage parlor @ $300./hour kind of happy ending; hence the less monies in settlement; sigh.

            Cheater speak…it’s a language unto itself.

  • Yes Lisa, you word salad spewing bitch, I was OK with monogamy just like we PROMISED each other, not lies, deceit, betrayal, STDs, secret phones, and clandestine meetings. Any conversation we had which was AFTER hub had secured his SOULMATE was one-sided. “Off with his head” is too good for my Cluster B. Off with something ELSE might be the conversation I’d like to start right about now.

    • On a side note: I so appreciate the term “word salad.” I’ve started editing a professor-friend’s articles and books before she submits them and have a growing following from her colleagues… when making corrections and remarks, they LOVE the very pure, very concise explanation of “word salad.” It means “beautifully written but useless for communication, which is the entire point of you writing on the topic: what idea are you trying to express here?” They need to take a step back from their “academic” verbage and try to engage the reader in order to impart knowledge.

      You are not an effective communicator if the recipient cannot understand the idea you’re trying to express. All of those beautiful words are meaningless.

    • The fact that STBX’s balls are still intact shows that I didn’t give in to my “human nature”. Guess I am not very hip.

  • After 36 years of marriage – I got I’m unhappy, we have grown apart. Then I found out he has cheated for over 5 years! Now the asshole is telling my boys- 20, 27, and 28. Your Mom needs to get over it and move on! Guess he did along time ago. A great example for 3 young men!

    • Mocham, mine said the same after 40 years! It’s what they say. Now, was he unhappy for 39 or 35 or 25 years, he doesn’t know. It’s just been a long time! Of course once he had Schmoopie waiting in the wings, for his soft landing, he couldn’t abide his unhappiness any longer and had to go!
      Like your jerk, my asshole enjoyed all the benefits of a good loving wife, children, grandchildren, and all the trappings that went along with a “unhappy” marriage for 40 years! But hey, that wasn’t enough he wasn’t happy. Boo hoo! Tell your boys next time he says you need to get over it, they need to say ” mom says your a fucking idiot” and go no contact, don’t waste another second on this asshole. Show those boys you’re not a door mat, he’s lost the best thing that ever happened to him. Be brave, hugs 💕💕💕

  • Oh how very cute…

    “But in the course of a long term relationship, taking into account the practical realities of our human need to experience life on our own, or through experiences with other platonic or romantic relationships, perhaps a new kind of conversation can unfold with your spouse or partner where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage, so the negative and hidden behaviors associated with adultery don’t take place.”

    Guess what? I actually was in my 30s and my then-fiance was in his late 30s, I sat him down and we extensively talked about our needs, and what kind of marriage we both would want, including our reasonable and practical parameters such as adultery, finances, kids, travel, and professional and personal dreams and goals… For several years before we got married… That did not prevent him from lying and cheating behind my back… How can that be?

    Oh yeah, I made a critical mistake, I believed I was in the kind of marriage “where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage.” Then I got proof that my then-husband in fact got a kick from the “hidden behaviors associated with adultery.” Ooops…

    My biggest mistake was to believe him, I now know better and only have contacts with him through our parenting software, NC is the best and only path forward.

    “I always tell my clients to create a vision plan of what they want their marriage to look like and what they’d both be okay with.”

    I agree, and therefore was extremely concrete and explicit about these during our pre-marriage chats… He had changed his vision and conveniently failed to inform me of that change… Until I uncovered a 14-months (that I know of) affair with a gradwhore half his age…

    It’s freaking 2017, if you are not cut out for monogamy, don’t sign up for it, so glad I divorced that turd post-Dday#1!

  • Not to overload the UBT, but there’s another gag me blog on HuffPo today where an OW talks about how tough her life was during her affair.

    If you don’t have the time, I’ll summarize it for you:

    Me…….me………me, me, me………..me……me……..me, I gots the sadz.

    • I rarely read HuffPost “lifestyle” articles as they’re mostly sensationalist click bait.

      And why does it seem so many of these dysfunctional people are Life Coaches? I’m at the point that if I hear someone say they’re a Life Coach I can’t get away from them fast enough.

      The last Life Coach I met had been married three times. What exactly are the qualifications needed to be a Life Coach? Do you take some online course? Do you get a certificate after a weekend retreat of trust falls and walking on hot coals? Are you automatically accredited after reading a certain number of Tony Robbins books?

        • Core Energy Coach? Whatever.

          Here’s her bio:

          “Fab is a Core Energy Coach and Hypnotherapist, who works with resilient women disappointed by life and guides them from Heartbreak to Breakthrough so they can become the leader of their life. She is the Author of Renaissance Woman: A Feminine Midlife Crisis from Loss of identity to Rebirth.”

          That’s a lot of words for “I sleep with married men.”

          • In my life I’ve been blessed to have benefited from some terrific life coaches. I just happen to call them parents and teachers.

          • Blindside- I thought you were poking fun at her by making up a bio. Then I did a double take as I realized that’s het actual bio. Talk about word salad!

            Ridiculous. Also kind of hilarious but for the fact that people pay for this crap.

        • I read that Huffpost piece…it is full of nuggets perfect for the UBT…but overall a truly comical look at the comical mind of an OW. She must’ve said to the reader at least three times that if you think she’s shit for what she’s done then you’re the ultimate evil: a judger! (I admit, I’m one of them.) But just as often she claims her own judgment of herself was worse than anything anyone else could level at her. Well, I’d like to ask, what’s so wrong then with these other judgers?? According to her own alleged judgment of herself, they were not only right they were also less damning of her. All this logic notwithstanding apparently, these judgers are still bad bad bad. Her own child said he’d call her a b**** when he learned what she was doing! He must be an evil judger too. And then when she touched on what her self judgment consisted of, of course it was nothing of substance…just “is this the best thing for me” kind of egocentricity. Following her brain is like chasing a baby bunny. And she did lend credence to the longstanding theory that a big part of the attraction was the sex high, and most of that because of the forbidden nature of it, the hiding, the playing secret agent. When they finally moved in together that’s when things fizzled. Just idiots with adult bodies these people.

          • great take-down, TKO. Ultimately it seems that the stomach ache she had from guilt was what made her give up her twu wuv. That and her affair partner went back to his wife. But yeah: “don’t judge!” but she has forgiven herself so no worries.

    • Thanks for the cliffnotes….didn’t have time to try to learn a new language of the OW also known as Cuntanese

  • These adulterers are NOT evolved at all! They are almost animal like in their pursuit of sex with any other animal willing to lay down with them! They are no better than dogs in heat! Evolved my ass! Evolution takes some insight and maturity. These are traits that cheaters simply do not possess! They are at best spoiled over grown toddlers who want the bright shiny toy! Sickening!

  • She is completely out to lunch is trying to address a relationship after infidelity in terms of renegotiation. If she was my therapist, I would fire her.

    I’ve heard it said here many times — “infidelity is soul rape”. The cheater changed the rules of your relationship without your knowledge.

    My EX was skilled at impression management. He told so many lies to justify his behavior. (You know the classic ones – “we have a open marriage’, “we are in the process of getting a divorce”, “we’re having trouble”, “everyone is doing it”.)

    Post DD#2 I learned that he had a LOT of conversations — but not one single conversation with me. Nadda. Ziltz.

    What kind of person does that? What kind of person can spend that much energy in fabricating and justifying lies, but can’t have a single honest conversation with their life partner — even in therapy! I am long past ‘meh’ – but I sometimes wonder if he is a sociopath or a narcissist.

    Newbies, read and re-read this site. Don’t fall for the garbage this therapist promotes.

  • Navel gazing,yep, widely spread. What ridiculous blather. You made a promise, you keep it. You fall in love with someone else? You tell your spouse you want a divorce, BECAUSE you fell in love with someone else. Of course, then you just have to live with the consequences. You don’t like it? Too bad. Way too simple, isn’t it? But no, the screwed up cheaters have to create their drama and revel in it, creating drama and misery for us chumps.

  • CL, your paragraph on entitlement FREES MY SOUL! In another post from ages ago you pegged my xh perfectly as an entitled coward with crap life skills. He personifies each of those concepts in perfect balance: entitlement, cowardice, crap life skills. Being able to put such a concrete, succinct name to my endless why? Why? WHY? effectively stopped me from untangling the skein and moved me firmly forward.

    And, “exploring the historical context of marriage” should be performed long before the church, white dress, $100 champagne flutes and the I do’s, not 25 years after, asshole.

  • NewHere,

    Agreed, 25 years later isn’t the time to toss the vows, change the original contract between two parties without the knowledge of one and open up to whatever feels good in the moment.

    Hindsight in cheater speak isn’t 20/20 it’s a threesome don’t cha know?

  • In her defense, there are a handful of matriarchal societies where women marry multiple men. It’s called Polyandry, and it’s very rarely used, and honestly, and in none of those cases does the woman actually get to CHOOSE her other spouses. It’s a case of: You marry one son, you marry them all. As far as I know, there’s only societies in the Himalayas that practice it today. The woman can’t go and pick and choose her spouses. They have to be related. That doesn’t really spark of feminism, if you ask me.

    Unless both parties agree to a polyamorous relationship, it’s cheating and it endangers your family. And it’s the most selfish thing a human being can do to others. The notion of marriage is not outdated, if two consenting adults enter in to it. Just like the notion of polyamory isn’t outdated if two consenting adults enter in to it.

    • My anthropologist sister told me about a culture where the men and women all have multiple husbands/wives. The husbands go wandering every night to a different wife and if another husband’s stick is at the house he has to go find a different wife. Meanwhile the women and children live with their brothers/uncles who become the male role models for the sons. She didn’t say how the husbands/wives get selected. It sounds rather convoluted to me and a breeding ground for all kind of STDs (unless it is a clean society and closed to outsiders), but I guess it works for them and it at least seems fair to all involved.

  • If you want to have a “rent-a-girl (orboy) friend, or a side piece with benefits, or a mistress or a sugar daddy on the side, it’s simple: don’t get married. Don’t promise another person you will be what Dr. Phil calls a “soft spot to land,” someone you can trust to have your back, sleep next to at night, hang in there when someone gets cancer, and keep your secrets.

    Oh, wait. that’s why cheaters get married–to cheat and betray and lie and sneak and in general have the opportunity to victimize another person.

  • Frequently i see these articles about signs of cheating and they always have these pieces of advice on how to keep your spouse from cheating by being so amazing. I WAS that amazing wife. I cooked, cleaned, cared for the kids, provided income when we needed it. I was always available for sex, we were best friends and I trusted him implicitly. You can’t prevent them from cheating, they don’t do it because their spouse didn’t register for the right silverware! They love deceiving, they get high off of it. It’s like riding a roller coaster for them, terrifying and thrilling. They also love knowing things others around them don’t, being duplicitous, withholding important info makes them feel powerful.

    • So true, nodancing!!

      +1

      I am pretty sure xhole was not a serial cheater. But I know for sure that when he did cheat with Ho(worker)Wife, he loved the thrill and the feeling of power. It was a high that was more important than the happiness of having a loving wife and 2 fantastic kids.

    • I think cheaters (male and female) often have really stereotypical views of what relationships are for-if you feel used as a free child-minder/personal assistant/occasional masturbation aid by the cheater, then that’s because that’s how they see relationships. So the defence that cheaters are merely trail blazers of an alternative, progressive lifestyle is laughable. They are actually the most regressive people around. A real progressive would be honest from the get go. If self-actualization is that important then its worth taking the risk.

      I should also point out that one reason Europeans have such allegedly unerstanding atttudes to cheating is that divorce laws in places like France are not very favourable to women, at least compared to the US. I feel incredibly sorry for the wife of my ex’s scumbag philanderer lover. It’s not a cool bohemian arrangement-the poor woman is clearly trapped, despite this piece of work’s admitted cheating. My ex even claimed she would call up frantically demanding to know where the lover was while he was with his Twu Luv (this was probably a turn on for my ex, whose lack of empathy over this just shocked me, considering what her own father put her mother through).

      I at least could get out-I’m earning good money on my own and I was prepared for the eventuality, and since we weren’t married we didn’t have to go to court. After that it was getting rid of the house and sharing the kids, and I thought all that through myself. She’s so anxious to not lose face by being a bitch about it she has gone along with everything, at least so far.

    • I share that with people on the regular. We live life, and life teaches us to judge, it’s a valuable skill! More people should use it.
      Why do you think they say- use your judgement, or, your best judgement?
      Judge away!

  • I was married to a narcissist for nearly 30 years before my divorce a little over 2 years ago. I don’t believe that I was in a relationship with the narcissist I divorced; I would describe it as a victimization. I married to love, honor, cherish and to be faithful for life. I believe he married me to have a stable home base, to have an additional source of income, to have the image of the happily married man and to have someone to abuse behind the scenes. I don’t think he ever intended to be faithful to me; he just said and did the things he needed to so that he could exploit me. You can’t have an honest conversation with a narcissist and you cannot resolve what you consider problems with them because they like things the way they are. Before I uncovered the infidelity evidence, I dealt primarily with emotional and verbal abuse and sometimes physical abuse. No amount of talking to him ever resolved anything. He simply did not care whether he met my needs or not; the only thing that mattered to him was his needs. One year before D-Day, I felt that my husband was using me for money and that he didn’t love me. I asked him if we could have a talk about our marriage. He angrily refused to have the talk and physically attacked me. I asked, “How could you do that if you are supposed to love me?” It was then that he told me that he hated me, was just using me for my money and didn’t want to have sex with me. Because I didn’t know about the other woman, for the next year I worked very hard to save the marriage with no help, input or work from him. At one point I asked him, “When will you respect me?” and he said, “Never.” When I did get the D-Day evidence, I tried in vain to have an honest conversation about it, but it was not possible. He was extremely angry with me for broaching the subject of the sex-stained car seat and lipstick-stained shirt sleeve. He adamantly and staunchly denied the evidence, came up with a myriad of excuses that made no rational sense, called me crazy and played the victim. I asked him, “Does it even bother you that your excuses make no rational sense?” He gave me no answer; I could have called him crazy for his far-fetched gaslighting lies but instead I explained logically why I could not believe his excuses. I pointed out that he could not find any errors in my logic, and that his attack on me was based on my character (crazy) rather than any arguments with my logic. There was no response other than he was the victim because he didn’t cheat and I was accusing him of something he didn’t do. He ultimately admitted that he could not explain the evidence, but he didn’t cheat. To have a relationship, you should be able to communicate and the communication should be honest; to this end I did not have a relationship. Although his story is that he doesn’t know the other woman, and he is sticking to it, I don’t believe that he was honest with her, either. Because he was abusing me and rejecting me sexually, he probably told the other woman that I was doing this to him. That was her cue to rescue him and join him in deceiving me and hating me. This means that his relationship with her is based on dishonesty, as well. He is really not capable of having an honest relationship with anyone. It’s true that the sexual relationship I wanted with him, he gave to her, but what she had with him was not exclusive and maybe she didn’t want that. I imagine it just amounted to him showing up at the store where she worked when he wanted to have sex with her, whisking her away to have sex and then dropping her off when it was over. Their association was limited in scope to sex and faithful-spouse bashing which is why it can’t really be called a relationship because a relationship entails so much more. Sex is an important part of life and it is just only one aspect of a healthy relationship. In a healthy relationship, you are not just involved in one narrow aspect of someone’s life, you are involved in every aspect of their life and you consider them and want the best for them.

  • Eh, I’ll keep this short: I feel like the type of people who excuse away cheating are the types who need drama in their lives. If something isn’t on fire, they are just bored.

  • Here’s a list put through the UBT
    We grew apart = I regressed to toddler/adolescent selfcenteredness and the Chump was an adult
    It takes two = It takes one cheater, one chump, and any number of whores/ adultery partners. Always more than two.
    There are 2 sides to every story = I’ve listened and spackled over the cheater’s story, now my mind is a complete muddle. Don’t listen to a word I say.
    We were incompatible = Chump was rude to/about my AP, sad 🙁
    Monogamy is an unnatural state = I am a cheater
    Communication is key = I need my secret cell phone to sext my Schmoopie
    And finally straight out of our MC’s mouth, no need to UBT this one: Sometimes outsourcing a bit of sex is good for a marriage. At least she was open about the bullshit.

  • Going straight to the bottom here.

    There is such a thing as CL alludes to, but it is rare. Very rare. In the Himalayas, and we are talking Tibet and Nepal, there is such a thing as Polyandry that is still practiced a bit today. One woman, usually a young girl, is married to a man and all his brothers. This is done to keep the land in the family, prevent her from being widowed and left destitute, and to assure that the family endures under harsh conditions. It’s not an ideal arrangement, and the other brothers are usually sent away to do jobs elsewhere to keep them off of her. But at least in theory, she has any number of husbands. I don’t expect it is ever her choice.

  • What is Lisa talking about? Not our kind of marriage, maybe she’s thinking about an institution for cheaters.
    She doesn’t like the hiding and lying part.
    So it could be set clear before the marriage for the two partners allowing and agreeing honestly about this alternative kind of intentions. Some people want to experience life like teenagers even at 60. They should stay single, however.
    Well if a new institution is appropriately defined to could keep cheaters with cheaters (and live happily ever after haha), why not welcome it? I think it could have saved us some pain.
    -But this “institution” should have a different name, a new label.-
    It would be useful to make cheaters stay away from honest people. I wouldn’t have loved a cheater in the first place, I love truthfulness, loyalty, and transparent behavior. The damage comes from unawareness…

  • That whole magnificent Japanese thing: their relationships are SO COOL they are not having enough children and breeding themselves into extinction. More adult nappies are bought in Japan than children nappies.

    Its really working for them long term!

  • The hilarious reality is that my X really is a Navel gazer. Literally would spend hours looking down there, pulling whatever crap he found in his belly button or examining his stomache/crotch area. Manicuring it etc etc
    He’s always posturing physically and mentally.
    Triangulation I said a sport to him.
    But none of that is helping now the consequences are coming home to roost.
    Like threatening phone calls and texts from people who are connected to the people he has screwed over. But you know what its not “his fault” and he “can’t think of anyone who has anything against him”!!! Seriously moronic.
    Guess who he rings first to talk about it, first to blame shift; who have I been talking to!! And then to get advice.
    Go to the police you moron was my very short reply. NOT my circus not my monkeys.
    OW is on the way out the door he is cheating on her to. Just setting up his next option b.
    He seriously has no life skills.
    So grateful to be free of that and moving on.
    Reached a turning point this week and making plans to move far far away from him and his flying Monkies.
    Oh and only 6 months out from separation. Thanks Chump Nation for your role in that.

  • Asinine and insulting comments such as Lisa’s can only come from someone who:

    (1) is an adulterer (“Hey guys, go easy on us fuckwit cheaters!”),

    (2) has never been chumped (“MY husband would NEVER do that to me”!) or

    (3) has an iceberg where her heart should be.

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