Dear Chump Lady, How do I deal with my cheater dad?

Dear Chump Lady,

I am a college student who watched her parent’s marriage implode four years ago due to my father’s infidelity. My mom, without many close female friends or family members, slopped her grief on me. I know a lot more details about the divorce than perhaps I should.

The short version is that my dad used Facebook to reconnect with a woman he had known in high school. They commiserated about their “abusive” home lives. They decided they were long-lost soul mates. The emotional affair lasted at least a year, but I think I’ve read enough Chump Lady to know it probably wasn’t just emotional. My mom found out and told my Dad to stop talking to the woman. He deleted his Facebook, but then still continued to send her sweet nothings. I don’t think my dad ever really tried to save the marriage, but rather just waited until his “goal”: that both of his kids graduate high school before he divorced our mom. They split three weeks after our graduation party.

My relationship with my dad is very strained. While he has never been a terribly active parent (working late and spending a lot of time with his friends when I was young), he has always supported me financially. I now go to an expensive private college in a big city. I paid for most of the tuition myself through grants and scholarships, but I still rely on my dad for a big portion of my rent and other bills. I have done the math, and it’s not really possible for me to support myself and continue the academic pursuits that will later set me apart from other graduate candidates. Basically, I COULD quit my lucrative but unpaid research job to get one flipping burgers or folding clothes, but it would really affect my chances of continuing in academia.

I don’t like my dad. I think he is a narcissist who rubbed the affair in everyone’s faces just because he could. He chose his OW over my brother and I, and now happily provides for her kids while giving us angry phone calls about every dime he sends. He is clearly only helping us financially because it’s in his divorce settlement. He demands affection and had a temper tantrum when I finished a phone call with him without saying “I love you”. He is needlessly difficult and calls when it is convenient for him, but god forbid I can’t pick up the phone in time. Seeing his name on my caller ID makes me sick to my stomach.

I have a little less than two more years in college where he is supporting me financially. After that, I can pretty much do whatever I want, and I really don’t see myself having a relationship with him. But how do I deal with him in the meantime? I am tired of the emotional blackmail and arguing over money, and I can’t shake the feeling that he didn’t actually have any real consequences for abandoning us. I have been in therapy for a while, but my therapist is more accustomed to standard “college problems” than infidelity-related divorces.

Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated.

ChumpKid

Dear ChumpKid,

You have a choice. You can accept your father’s financial support and all the bullshit that goes with it — or you can choose independence and the peace and sanity that comes from not needing One. Damn. Thing. from him.

What you cannot have (which is what I suspect you really want) — is a father who will willingly, lovingly, and ungrudgingly support you, financially and otherwise.

I’m sorry you didn’t get that father. A good parent wouldn’t put his child in this position. He’s not a good parent. He’s a lousy person with lousy character and you’ve got to deal with the reality you were dealt. So… about that sweater folding…

I can’t tell you what path to choose. I can tell you that plenty of people in this world succeed in life and worked shit jobs through college (and grad school). Mr. CL, in fact, put himself through undergrad, an Ivy League graduate degree, and law school. (He’s one of five kids, and they all put themselves through higher ed — his siblings are: a rocket scientist, an engineer, a CPA, and an English professor). All to say, it CAN be done (says the privileged person who went to a private liberal arts college, financed by family, and had no student loans… but did work a lot of shit jobs in and out of college… and worked full-time through a graduate degree).

It’s also okay to accept his support — however spiteful and court-ordered it is. Accepting his financial support for the next two years (which your mother and her lawyer were prescient enough to fight for) does not mean you accept what he did, or how he conducts his life. I suspect you feel like taking his money is using him. Well, CK, in a sense you are. You don’t have to reply to those guilting calls with “I love you,” but you could tell your dad thanks for the support. It’s okay to say you appreciate the financial help even if he is a total dick about it. That’s truthful and authentic — you do appreciate it and it’s helping you reach your personal goals. Saying thanks is for YOU, to assuage that icky feeling. I don’t expect it will be sufficient kibbles for Dad.

By way of perspective, CK, consider that the majority of people in the U.S. are never able to collect the full amount of child support they’re owed for kids under 18. Fact is, by law anyway, you aren’t entitled to his support. You’re over 18. College help is GRAVY. Most people on this blog are doing without. My own son’s father owes me thousands in back support and hasn’t bought his son so much as a pencil eraser for college.

Whether you have to tolerate your dad now, or cut him off in two years, is your choice. But I would encourage you to never NEED a narcissist for ANYTHING. Because that’s handing him the power to disappoint you. Your dad has proven himself to be a person who does not honor his commitments, so I would prepare yourself for the scenario that he could welch out on college support too. Needing him makes you vulnerable to him.

I know it’s more than the money — it’s the validation that he cares. That he’s invested in you (quite literally). And it’s heartbreaking that he isn’t. I’m sorry that he sucks. You may find that you have a better relationship with him when it’s on your own terms. It will be a superficial one (WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I NEEDED YOU?!), but it will be a lot easier once you don’t need anything from him.

It’s okay to be clear-eyed about that. Whatever you do, don’t make the mistake of putting up with shit for a lifestyle. Don’t be a person who fakes a relationship for goodies or thinks they can “nice” a narcissist into caring. Be the kind of person who has her own fuck off money and fuck off skills.

You’re in college — you’re working on that skillset now. Keep at it, with or without his support. You can DO IT.

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Whoddathunk
Whoddathunk
6 years ago

In addition, remove his name from your contacts – just have the number show up. Find a new therapist who you can only say good things about.

Betrayed and Confused
Betrayed and Confused
6 years ago

My wife was sexually abused by her dad and he also abused and cheated on his wife. They never divorced. My wife said her dad threaten to kill the whole family if she ever left him. That was back in the 70s. Her parents never divorced. Now, her dad is dying. I have felt the stress of his illness and the fact that she has to help her mom take care of him was a big trigger for her affair. My mom has some big problems. That said, she blames me and says I’m the narcissist. Today’s blog makes me wonder how things will be between her and our kids later in life. Right now she’s doing her best to be perfect mommy: play dates, fast food, and she’s always over her parent’s house. Here I am cooking at home and making sure they eat their vegetables, (she actually complained that I was doing that). She gets to see them every day because of school drop offs and pick ups and sport I only see them 1/2 each week, which is better than most dads but makes me feel she’s winning and has a free babysitter every Friday night (my lawyer and I have her Friday because she could resist, she didn’t lol)

Lovey dovey
Lovey dovey
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I don’t think the courts do anything unless the person abused the kids. I had a similar situation. My father abused us kids in 1970s. Tget never divorced for similar reasons. My ex tried to bring it up (I live across the country from,them but still see my folks with my girls 1-2x yearly). The judge didn’t really take that factor into consideration. They did look at my ex abandoning the kids in a hot car parked in the sun on a 100 degree day to hang with schmoopy. I have 70% custody.

What I do with my ex is offer help whenever he needs it. He has a 4th wife, toddler, and mom who is sick. When these get to be too much for him, I placate and offer help. Most narcs will gladly ababandon their kids when stressed.

My ex also takes the girls to the impoverished native American red where his wife heralds from. Child rape rates are astronomical there (courts don’t care about that either). So what I have done with my girls is put them in a girls assertiveness class and I talk openly about 1) ways to protect themselves, 2) its ok and I want then to tell me of someone does sonething to them..it is not their fault. 3) I told them in an age appropriate manner that grandpa has problems and they can never be alone with him. I also moved across the country,

To Cl: I love your column. Please be aware courts are so overwhelmed that child safety even to the extend of sexual abuse dies not register much anymore. So parents can do the best they can do. But I’ve noticed you giving advice about bringing things to court. This can easily backfire…so people should always Check with an attorney.

Best of luck sane parent. I remember my ex once bringing me to court because I didn’t pack enough meat in the kids lunch boxes..,haha

Nyra
Nyra
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

The sad thing is UNTIL sometime happens nothing will be done legally to prevent it from happening. I had valid concerns & my lawyer said that he could not do a thing legally to help protect them.
However, if we had stayed with X & something happened to them, my lawyer said that they could have been taken away from me for having concerns & doing nothing! Thank God they were old enough to refuse visitations.

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
6 years ago

Well, I’d double check to make sure that he’s really obligated to support you in that divorce settlement. If he is, then you’re far less obligated to put up with him for that cash.

Regardless, try and minimize all contact with him and go Grey Rock whenever possible. Be as boring and non-responsive as possible to everything he does or says. Keep all responses to 2 or 3 words when possible.

FSTL
FSTL
6 years ago
Reply to  Traffic_Spiral

Agree with grey rock. I had an abusive father who just kept the drama going after my parents split up. He eventually got bored when I refused to play his game, he went away, then (in the days before email) I went very LC, then sent him an email (when email started up), only for his abuse to start again.

Best to shut the window he has into your world.

Good luck.

Pret
Pret
6 years ago

Chumpkid…..my heart aches for you. I believe that the two people who should love you unconditionally in this world are your parents….it sucks big time that you don’t have that. It sucks that you have to play your dad’s mind games. Please know that this is all on him…his character…it has nothing to do with your worth. Be of the mindset that you have no high expectations of him, therefore you cannot be disappointed by him….those are the words of my 10 year old. She will be you one day as she too has a dad who abandoned her. I tell her all the time “look at his actions, do not listen to his words”…you sound like a fine young lady…know your worth..fill your life with people who love you for you and will support you because of that love. (((hugs)))

Pret
Pret
6 years ago
Reply to  Pret

Chumpkid…the advice above is fine ( my advice) and all but this is really how I feel. As I said, I’m raising a daughter on my own. I am outraged at your dad on behalf of you. Your dad is a narcissistic asshole who doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself. You said you feel like there were no consequences for abandoning you and your brother…those consequences will come later in life. Those consequences will come when he doesn’t get to walk you down the aisle and he doesn’t get to hold your babies in his arms. As he gets older, he will want to reconnect…..fuck him. He chose to leave your family. He chose to hang out with his friends instead of building a bond with you and your brother. One day you will get to CHOOSE to shut him out of your life. He doesn’t deserve you. He may think he is with his “soulmate” but he will never, ever know true happiness. No person can ever abandon their child and know true happiness. He may have moments here and there….but in his soul he will never be happy. He will always be a cheater who abandoned his wife and children….know and feel this in your heart and you will be able to walk away from him too…hopefully one day very soon.

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  Pret

Pret,
I send big hugs to you and your daughter. Her words are so mature and wise.
I won’t go into details, only say that, years ago, my cheater stayed to the tune of my DDay1 pick me dance. He did not cheat again, ( I know, that I knew of), but life with a person of his ( and most cheater’s) character, is never easy, on me or our two beautiful daughters.
I am happy you and your daughter are living a cheater free life and I just want to stress that to you and send you both love.
Chumped kid, I feel the same toward you as Pret.
You are a good person who has had too much emotional burden on your plate.
I am certainly no expert on the financial advice and will leave that to other CN Chumps who certainly will have good advice to guide you.
Your Mom has been the sane, present, loving parent. I hope she will be able to find some peace with your cheater Dad out of the the house. Can you introduce her to CL, CN? There is so much love, respect and kindness here.
Chumpedkid, I am sorry that so much of the burden has been placed on your shoulders.
I told no one of my cheater’s affair and my daughters are not aware. They well know the characteristic traits of their Dad in all of other life happenings.
Children should not have to suffer. Chumps do their best to protect our precious children. Sometimes, sadly, it isn’t enough.
Also some of us often wish we had made other decisions.
You are a precious child, almost finished college. You are Mighty to have accomplished all you have accomplished.
Chumpedkid, I am hoping and praying for the best for you.
I know in my heart you will accomplish great things!

((((((Hugs to you and your Mom))))))

Pret
Pret
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

Peacekeeper…thank you for the kind words…they mean a lot to me. My daughter and I try to live our lives as though he doesn’t exist…he gave her a phone to keep in touch with her and she told him to call her before 6:30. When 6:30 rolls around…if he hasn’t called, she turns the ringer off the phone and that’s that! She is way beyond her 10 years…she says “If he doesn’t have time for me, I don’t have time for him” I’m trying my damnedest to set boundaries. Today is exactly 2 months since she saw him…he’s an IT guy…he has never skyped or facetimed her. One day he told her he missed her and wished he could give her a hug…the next day he didn’t bother to call her! I tell her ” Do not listen to his words, look at his actions!!!!” Thanks to CL and CN…I no longer have the rose colored glasses on. I see him for exactly who he is and I truly hope that he is so blissfully happy that he forgets all about us and stops his sporadic phone calls. Recently I find that I can go longer periods of time in a day without thinking about him….that makes me so happy…I smile….a true genuine smile…who would have thought? Two days from now it will have been 9 months from my first D Day. If you had told me nine months ago I would be on my way to being OK again….but like CL says…it really is finite…you just have to trust that they suck! I’m the winner in the end. I get to have this beautiful child in my life. I’m the parent who stayed. I’m the sane parent. This makes me smile too.

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago

From the letter, he is a guy that will do only what is obligated. I suspect that if the support is court obligated, he may plan on cutting you off as soon as he can. Start trying to stack away money any way that you can.

Can you get a roommate? Are there any areas in which you can cut costs? Be on the lookout for him to drop you abruptly and start to prepare for that now.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago

Being abandoned by a father while he’s supporting the OW’s children sucks big time.

He doesn’t get to control when you answer the phone or how you interact. Your mom was mighty in securing funds from your dad on your behalf. Yet it feels more like a burden knowing it comes with s price.

Bottom line is he’s an asshole whether or not you continue to get the support. Take the money. That’s putting your needs first and the consequences for being a father who has to TELL his child to say Iove you.

DOCTOR'sWife&Kids
DOCTOR'sWife&Kids
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Dear Chumpkid

My DOCTOR husband cut off tuition for our 20 year old daughter last May. This was after leaving me for the tundra and a big adventure with Schmoopie.

My daughter was about to attend her 3rd year of college at an expensive private school, like her older brother and sister attended. She had made the Dean’s list for 2 years.

In a rambling letter (written on scratch paper, with unidentified patient notes on back), the DOCTOR told her that I should pay my “share” of college costs from the spousal support he’s NOT paying. In fact, he opposed paying me ANY support, after 35 years of marriage.

And by “share”, I guess he means all. In any event, incredibly, my son spearheaded an effort to get my daughter (his youngest sister) some financial aid.

My son submitted the following to her college: the divorce papers, the nonpayment by the DOCTOR, the financial evidence of his blocking me from our joint accounts, my medical records (I was hospitalized when he was with Schmoopie, whom I had never heard of), and a timeline narrative I submitted. Reading it was hard, mostly because it was all true. And you never know how starkly weird & reasonable a financial aid request is, until you submit one.

Incredibly, the college gave my daughter a HUGE grant award, and her costs were slashed. I’m lucky to have kids who have each other’s back.

Turns out, divorcing the DOCTOR earlier, would have saved a fortune in money and heartache).

I am still very amazed this happened. So you never know, you might ask your college for help and their answer could be “YES!”

arlo
arlo
6 years ago

Grey rock : read up on it, practice it, come back here for further advice and examples and support.
Narcissists and shit birds of all stripes thrive on conflict. They have no appetite for boredom, and that’s essentially what grey rock is. You starve them of conflict and present them a steady diet of bland grey boredom.
Grey rock is actually a valuable life skill in other areas. I’ve gotten a reputation (and a promotion) at work as someone who can deal effectively with the difficult people that nobody else can tolerate. It’s just grey rock technique. It’s second nature to me now, and has preserved my sanity and energy.
I think it will help you survive the next two years with your financial support and your values intact. I think it can help you reframe your relationship with your mom, who while a victim of your father’s abuse, also failed to protect you.

Vastra
Vastra
6 years ago

Ouch – that must be so hurtful that he provides for OW’s stepkids and openly resents supporting his own kids. This pains me as my ex does the same to my high school kids… right down to the rage if they don’t answer his calls immediately, thoughtful details of how much they cost him daily, accompanied by demands for chores to repay this (court-ordered) “debt”. The stepdaughters he lives with full time get their private schools paid for but have no chores… it’s a sick Cinderella dynamic. ☹️

indychump
indychump
6 years ago

Well, this is a first- I’m going completely sideways on this. Often times the advice here to us chumps is to “Gray-rock and line up the ducks.” I know this is different, but she’s still young and she’s a de facto chump. So I’m going to advocate the same here for chump kid.

Hell yea, gray rock and use him for the money while you can and then dump his cheating narc ass when the degree is done. Stone cold curb him when you’re done. Just like he did you and your mom.

Gray rock: Cool. Bummer. Wow. Then the cheater mainstay excuses to go to: “Gotta go, worked late, had a meeting, phone died, was with a friend, etc. but next weekend for sure”

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
6 years ago
Reply to  indychump

I am with the pragmatists here. Maintain the level of contact your father charges you as the “cost” you are paying for the financial support. Try to make the contact as regular as possible–i.e. a weekly phone call at 5:00 on Wednesdays. You might have to lie to make this happen–tell your dad that you hate missing your weekly call with him so you want to schedule it so you can keep his time free. But if he can’t be flattered into a schedule, just have a few standard lines prepared to throw at him–“Oh, Dad, I’m so sorry we missed each other.” ” Hi Dad! I’m so glad I caught up with you!” “I’ve been looking forward to our call Dad, and it was such a disappointment I didn’t have my phone when you tried me earlier.” You can’t go entirely gray rock in your situation, but you can prepare for his nonsense.

Take ten minutes before the call (or once a week) to sit down and figure out a couple things that you are willing to tell him that you think he will want to hear. For example, “Hey, Dad. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you. The research team I’m on had some real successes this week, and I’m so glad I can do this work with them. I’m so excited about my work on symbiotic systemic isotopes. Should I send you the abstract of the article we’ve written about our work? I’ll be busy this weekend and probably for the next month writing up some of the other results. How about you? What’s going on with you?” Don’t tell him about friends or family or loved ones–just mechanical things you’d tell a stranger on a bus you were sitting next to through a long traffic jam. If he wants more time on the phone, be boring. Explain those darn isotopes. For most narcissists the details are all irrelevant anyway. As long as you are flattering him–and asking about him, he’ll be processing it as “good daughter” behavior.

One of my friends had a weekly call with her father all through college that she despised. We all knew it was just to keep the payments coming. If nothing else, it schooled her to manage horrible bosses later in life. She learned to be very stoic about it, and it saved her tens of thousands of dollars in loan costs.

Find a therapist that will help you develop emotional detachment–the contact with your father is a skill you are honing because it is financially useful. You shouldn’t have to do this. You deserve more. But you are also smart–smart enough to be doing well in school, to be researching your problem and finding CL, smart enough to mange this problem.

Have a reward planned for yourself after each phone call or contact–a good friend you can chat with and debrief, a bike ride, take your favorite coffee drink to the library and read glossy magazines for 30 minutes, watch an episode of your favorite Netflix indulgence.

And while it is entirely reasonable to be angry with your father for getting away with horrible behavior, try to remember the problem is not that he isn’t paying any costs, it is that he is too foolish to realize what he is paying. He’s lost your respect for starters.

Persevere. Your dad is a job right now. Not a parent.

Chickynot
Chickynot
6 years ago
Reply to  indychump

Absolutely. Do not feel a shred of guilt for getting what is rightfully yours from cheater dad, then dumping him like a hot coal once he has paid for your education. And yes, getting a good, debt-free education can be indeed be an important factor in making you financially better off long term, so sticking out the 2 years at grey rock (assuming no sexual abuse, etc.) may be right for you. Your goal should be to get yourself financially set up to go no contact with him, once you have established your career. Someday he will be old and feeble, and you can have the pleasure of knowing he will not be YOUR responsibility then!

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  indychump

I’m not fond of the idea of framing it as ‘using’ him if it was agreed upon during the divorce. (Smart Mom!)

Keeping him accountable and responsible for his obligations as part of the legal settlement he signed is more like it.

indychump
indychump
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Agreed, I wrote in haste while hurting for Chump kid/all our Chump children. 🙁

Last thing I’d really want is for anyone to use, abuse, or become cold hearted. So chumpkid work the grey/rock, and try not to take his crap life skills personally. Okay?

And yes: This letter could have been from either of my two kids, who are both working hard to attain their MBA’s. This is a hard path to walk.- loved Luziana’s much better reply. Thank you!

Hopium4years
Hopium4years
6 years ago
Reply to  indychump

A minor but I think relevant semantic point:

I’m letting The Python live with me for now for financial reasons – nearing retirement, I financially subsidized/gifted him for YEARS and now I’m underemployed and get help with expenses and get health insurance through him – and I’m actually comfortable with saying that I am now “using” him. (Can’t wait til retirement though when he’s OUT!)

There’s a huge difference between the way narcs “use” us and how we may “use” them after they’ve harmed us, discarded us, and showed that they don’t have our best interests at heart.

We’re little more than objects to them. We had hopes for a future with a loving spouse or loving father in our lives going forward – hopes now dashed. Unlike their view of us as “things” we actually realize that they are human beings (albeit lousy ones). Unlike their callous, cruel, hurtful ways, we won’t inflict deep emotional pain through OUR “use” of THEM.

After all they’ve taken from us, we “use” them as a means to get some small payback. (Small because it doesn’t come CLOSE to repaying us for the years of our lives that have been damaged by them.) In my case, I will recoup most of the tens of thousands of dollars I shelled out, so the ledger at least will end up close to even.

For ChumpKid – and for me – the financial support now can mean independence in the future. I don’t count on it, and she shouldn’t either (because narcs renig), but for however many months we DO get it, it will make our lives easier. I’m all for “using” the narcissist, since we do it to partially balance the scales that they for too long tipped in their favor.

Vastra
Vastra
6 years ago
Reply to  Hopium4years

The Python – great name!
In an ideal world I would not take money from my ex either, and he definitely resents the child support and fees he pays. However because of his wish to leave and have minimal custody (none at present), my career is restricted – I don’t work full-time, need to take a lot of unpaid leave so they aren’t alone at home for 16 weeks of holidays a year, and I can’t get to the courses and conferences that my colleagues with kids attend with the support of their partners. I consider the money payback for the years I supported his career, and the ongoing limitations on my career and freedom.

Vastra
Vastra
6 years ago
Reply to  Vastra

I also save whatever I can for their studies after high school, knowing he will pull the support the day they turn 18

Luziana
Luziana
6 years ago
Reply to  indychump

I actually agree with this. As a 48 year old who worked her way through college but still stupidly took out loans and is still paying them off, I would have done any pantomime or comedy skit that didn’t involve harm to my actual body to not have them.

I know it would be tough to be young and idealistic and have to slightly sacrifice my integrity to play along with the Narcissist, but I would do it. I might even find little ways to enjoy treating my Narc like a cat toy. Boundaries. Set up a weekly five minute call with dad. Calculate the weekly contribution he is making. When you say ILY every week and hang up, say, ‘Damn, I just made 600 dollars.”

As soon as the last check posts, so long, sucker. It’s really no different than how we all learn to deal with co workers or neighbors we don’t particularly care for. No active resentment or investment, no burning need for revenge, no open contempt. No backdoor gossip. Not even to Mom. This is a situation that any of us have to evaluate for the greater good.

The greater good is this guy pays. And maybe he gets a sneaky suspicion his kid only cares about his money but hasn’t a shred of evidence it’s true. Kind of like the gaslighting he pulls all the time.

SChump
SChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

“Set up a weekly five minute call with dad. Calculate the weekly contribution he is making. When you say ILY every week and hang up, say, ‘Damn, I just made 600 dollars.”

Luziana, this is *gold*. I’ll be passing this info along to my nephew, who’s on the same boat with the ChumpKid.

Chumpiest
Chumpiest
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

I agree with you, Luziana. I’ve sacrificed so much but at least one of my two sons already got the best education available in my country, free of charge (including his master’s degree), and the other one just finished college and will wait a couple of years before going to graduate school. I advised him to ask his father to set up a fund for the two years he’ll have to pay for (just in case the psycho is fired from is high-paying job or retires), but he feels it wouldn’t be ethical. Oh my, why did I raise such a chumpy kid????? The worst part of it is that they adore their dad, even though they know about the howorkers, strippers and whores. I guess they’ll never accept that his narcissistic abuse almost killed me, but at least he gave them the education I never could have afforded.

ChumpKid
ChumpKid
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

Luziana,

“When you say ILY every week and hang up, say, ‘Damn, I just made 600 dollars.”

Thanks for this. This is a great way to think about it.

Luziana
Luziana
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

We are all rooting for you, and for all the ChumpKids. Be amazing, be happy, don’t let this situation of happenstance define you. Hugs and healing.

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

“When you say ILY every week and hang up, say, ‘Damn, I just made 600 dollars.”

Yup. Just see it as an emotionally demanding job.

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Traffic_Spiral

I completely agree with you that “it costs too much,” but each of our circumstances differ, so maybe some people can maintain contact and not compromise their health. I was taught to “grin and bear it” because “you make your bed, you lie in it.” I watched my disordered, abusive father almost kill my mother, threaten to kill me, and prevent my sister and I from seeing our mother at various times in our adult lives because we did or said something he didn’t like. Since my family was impoverished, they never had money to hold over my head. I had a very difficult time being financially on my own, and I still played out many of the common scenarios that entangle victims (with my own partners), but I never had to “dance for money.”

ANC
ANC
6 years ago

CK,
Take every cent of the court-ordered college support that was outlined in your parent’s divorce decree. Every.last.penny.

I am sorry you were the emotional dumping ground for your mom during the shit storm. That was not right and you are quite mature to recognize that you need help processesing the divorce and your cheating father. Continue to get help and ask your current therapist to refer you to someone who can help with NPD abuse (which is the bullshit your father is doing) and the trauma of the divorce.

Stay on your path. Every healthy parent would go Jackie chan insane to ensure their childrens’ lives are better than theirs. This is an excellent gift from your mom. Don’t walk away from it. Get the skill set to deal with your asshole father.

Xoxo! ANC

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  ANC

“Every healthy parent would go Jackie chan insane to ensure their childrens’ lives are better than theirs“

So True ANC!

Unfortunately you have an unhealthy parent chump kid but you sound like you have your wits about you and are not likely to repeat. (My 5 children share your pain so remember you are not alone)

Most importantly you need to be vigilant about setting boundaries. Your dad and my kids’ dad sound eerily similar. He is not emotionally mature and expects the kids to take a parent role. People like your dad are egocentric and unable to empathize with your feelings. You have to learn and remember you are not responsible for his behavior, feelings etc. That is a weakness of chumps- we are very feeling people.

I think it is very hard to find a therapist who gets and can work well with chump situations. I suggest you keep reading up on setting boundaries with a narcissist if you have any spare time. Consider it therapy and block off some time for it each week.

I have discovered we live in a world where the predominant thinking is kids need a relationship with their parents. The only exception seems to be if the parent is on death row for a heinous crime but even there is wiggle room. That being said, I think it is hard to find people who support setting more healthy boundaries.

I agree with those who encourage you to continue taking his financial support but do not succumb to his bullying. Do not say I love you out of obligation. Do not answer his calls to avoid his rage. Learn that his rage is his rage and is inappropriate. Narcissists are this way because they have not had proper consequences. Show him that if he treats you poorly, he does not get to have a relationship with you.

I know this is hard. I live it with my own kids. For me, my religious beliefs have helped. One of the commandments of our religion is to honor your father and mother and stbx was trying to use that against the children. I struggled with that until someone said the best way to honor your father is to honor God. Also, the first and greatest commandment is to love one another and sometimes that may be “tough love.”

Hugs to you chump kid. Your chump mom should be proud of you. I am sorry for your dad, he doesn’t get what he is missing. You sound amazing and you have a bright future ahead!

ChumpKid
ChumpKid
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

FeelingIt,

Even my mom, who is pretty far from being my dad’s number one fan, encourages me to have a relationship with him. “You only get one dad” she says.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

Continuing to have a relationship with him is up to you to define. It can be as little or as much as you are comfortable. If seeing his number on your phone makes you sick to your stomach, that is telling you something. Listen to your gut and let that lead you into setting boundaries with him.

And I agree with most, take the money. If it is in the divorce settlement and he is paying it, that should continue regardless of the amount of time you give him. And chump lady is spot on…tell him thank you. That is authentic and will make you feel better about taking it. How he reacts is on him.

geekmom
geekmom
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

I don’t know about “You only get one dad.” Yes, you do only get one “father,” but I know a number of kids who have a far more stable and loving relationship with a stepparent than with the bio parent.

Here’s hoping your mom meets the man who can honestly, truly, deeply love you both as you deserve.

Meanwhile, take the money. You may or may not be aware of the work it took, or what your mom may have had to give up in her divorce settlement to secure those funds for you. Don’t negate her efforts; take the money and do NOT feel one iota guilty for it, even if you have to fake emotion you don’t feel for a few years. Just like your father apparently did with you.

Sarah
Sarah
6 years ago
Reply to  geekmom

Such an awesome point, geekmom. When I was a bridesmaid at a friend’s wedding, her stepdad was telling me this story about when he went with her to buy her first training bra. Just imagining this massive, Texan man in the lingerie department with his 12 year old stepdaughter taught me a lot about love. I remember thinking, now that’s a dad.

ANC
ANC
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

Recognize biology doesn’t mean those are the best family members- blood vs water. As you develop friendships you will find people who become your family or tribe. Invest in people who invest in you. Not all ‘family’ is blood related.

Sure you only have one father. Kids do not get to pick who their parents are. As a young adult, you do get to choose which relationships you keep healthy connections. Don’t pretzel yourself for th cheater because your mother is telling you to do it. She has her own issues to deal with as well.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  ANC

Blood is thicker than water but love is thicker than blood.

No need to tolerate sh*tty, abusive behavior because you have blood ties to a pod person.

I don’t believe a person has to honor a parent when that parent has dishonored the sane parent and disrespected the kids by engaging in domestic violence/cheating

indychump
indychump
6 years ago
Reply to  ANC

Word!

I cut all contact with my abusive, cheating narc dad years ago. When I heard from step-siblings that he was on life support and about to be disconnected – I wished them all well. When I then got the call that the funeral was to be held on x, I again wished them well.

I was told “I needed to put aside my differences” and come pay my respects. (Vomit) I replied “I’ve been put aside my whole life, I’m not about to pretend to be a happy family and pretend to agree with the sickening eulogies. This isn’t about hard feelings, Its just me not giving a fuck, especially when I’m given six hours notice for the service.” Sorry not sorry!

My only regret? That I would have cut contact a decade earlier. Maybe my picker would have been better…

FindingBliss
FindingBliss
6 years ago
Reply to  indychump

Good for you, Indychump, for sticking to your boundaries and principles. Pay our respects? There is no respect to be paid. Parents who are abusers who treat you like shit your whole life do not suddenly become the world’s sweetest saints, just because they died. Contrary to what the pretenders and the deluded think. All so that they can stifle any uncomfortable feelings that might arise during the narrative change. Way to stay true.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

Honoring a toxic narcissist? And the cycle repeats.

Khris
Khris
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Something else occurred to me that maybe you should think about. Don’t be surprised if later on you are going to hear the words “You owe me” from your Dad when he needs something. Not saying for sure, but possible that you are an investment for HIS future.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  Khris

True, but ‘you owe me’ only works (like all manipulation) when we let it.

He says ‘you owe me’? You reply ‘I don’t agree’, and walk away.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

I’m sorry to hear that. You may only get one dad but I think you have the right to hold him accountable to a higher standard.

You can have a relationship with your dad but he should not be allowed to bully you. I believe that is.why no contact and gray rock work, the opportunity for control by the abuser is taken away and that control is what they thrive on.

My oldest daughter (now 24) instinctively went no contact post dday a year and a half ago. I was following the popular advice and trying to get her to pick me dance. She would have no part of it and now I am grateful.

He may be your only dad and that is beyond your control but don’t let him make you eat shit sandwiches. I think you know you are worth more or you wouldn’t be here. Go with your gut!

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

I am very sorry you are in this situation, and so glad you reached out to CN for help. We are here to support you. As a highly invested mom of college-aged daughters, I know that I did everything I could to shield them from the nastiness of my separations from their biological father and then their step-parent, but I also know that there were times I was so emotionally wrecked when our family imploded that I sobbed and babbled in front of them. I know it’s difficult (and inappropriate) to be your mom’s primary support system, and you should definitely (kindly) set boundaries with her, but also try to offer her compassion. When I was in college and trying to break free from my abusive father, I saw two different therapists who echoed your mom’s sentiment (“You only get one dad”) when I said I thought I needed to stop all contact in order to recover from everything he’d done to me, my sister, and my mom. Anyone who guilts you into remaining in contact with someone who is hurting you does not have your best interests in mind. I finally found a counselor who acknowledged my drive for self-preservation, validated that it took enormous courage to stop interacting with my father, and helped me learn coping skills and practice standing up for myself and setting boundaries. You have the right to feel safe and create peace of mind.

UnflownKite
UnflownKite
6 years ago

My daughter could’ve written this letter. In fact, when I was reading the first two paragraphs I had to analyze it to a degree to make sure it wasn’t her. This is the an example of the destruction cheaters leave in their path.

Chickynot
Chickynot
6 years ago
Reply to  UnflownKite

Yep. I thought this was from my daughter too.

Chumpy McChumpFace
Chumpy McChumpFace
6 years ago
Reply to  UnflownKite

My sons are writing this letter right now — very timely topic! ChumpKid, I too, tell my sons that they only have one father and to leave a light on for him in their hearts so that someday, he will be able to find his way back. I’m learning to back off on that though and hold my tongue. My older son, a junior in college, just recently went complete no-contact with his father. He lives by the philosophy “no drama in, no drama out.” My younger son, a senior in high school, is contemplating it. His only reservation (as I learned just this past weekend), is that he’s afraid the college money will get cut off because … drum roll … his father has already threatened that he will pull the financial plug, if there isn’t a relationship between them. It’s a transaction now. (There’s no way he can do that. My lawyer and I spent A LOT of time on the clauses related to college payments, 529 funds, etc. So why my ex thinks he can threaten that is beyond me.)

The therapist we worked with for a couple of years after their father walked told my sons that they should have a relationship with their father “if they are able to.” And he emphasized with me, that they may not be able to, given their father’s limitations.

As for your mom emotionally dumping on you during the divorce … gah. I read that and felt a twinge of “oh crap,” as I’m sure that happened with me as well. But Cashmere worded it really well, “the emotions–especially early on–do get sloppy and splash up on everyone in the vicinity.” That is so true. I hope you can appreciate that it is a very undignified, raw time and it takes a while to recover from the shock and find your emotional footing again. Your mom sounds like she has now and that’s a good thing.

You are not alone. I’m sorry that you have to go through this.

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  UnflownKite

Agree. My son could have written it.

I do want to defend the mom a bit, though. Yes, the emotions–especially early on–do get sloppy and splash up on everyone in the vicinity. We try so hard not to let things impact the kids, but it is really impossibl, especially with older ones who are very aware of every little thing. Ultimately, we can’t erase what the disordered parent did to everyone. Breaks our hearts, but nothing erases it. All we can do is work toward everyone’s healing, and I think most of us put tons of effort into that.

ChumpKid
ChumpKid
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

I truly don’t blame my mom. She shows a lot of remorse for the grief slopping and I really don’t think she meant any harm by it. I guess I wish I knew a little less of the gory details, but if I didn’t, then any relationship I had with my dad would be built on a lie or a sugarcoated truth.

Clara
Clara
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

@Cashmere and ChumpKid: cashmere, you’ve pretty much described my experience with my mum. (My dad cheated on her repeatedly through most of their marriage, didn’t even attempt to hide the last couple of mistresses from me, and they divorced when I was 18.) I got the total, utterly distasteful, unvarnished truth, and I was also her only support within our family because my siblings and all the extended family took dad’s side.

And in case this helps any chump parents out there: I’ve always been really grateful that Mum didn’t spare me the gory details. Thanks to my Dad, I might not know what a loving husband is, but I sure as heck know what he ISN’T. Normally people wouldn’t acquire that sort of ability to spot relationship red flags until…well, being mistreated for decades, perhaps by a cheating spouse. I on the other hand had that knowledge when I came of age and it’s already helped me get out of several potentially abusive relationships, totally unscathed. Please, please don’t feel guilty for giving your kids this kind of armour!

geekmom
geekmom
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

I have two adult children. My son, the younger, was still home when his father pulled his disappearing act and subsequent rewriting of the events. Son saw what I went through, although I did do my damndest to do my ugly crying and screaming rages while in the car, shower, or while he wasn’t around. He saw. He read the first email of the string I found – grabbing my tablet away to see what caused me to scream and fall onto the floor sobbing. He KNOWS. He refuses to have anything to do with his father, who has come sniffing around him twice in the last two years, acting like he misses his son but actually what he wants to do is feed son the revised history of events, telling “his side,” and getting son to see things his way. Son realizes this, knows the truth of events as he witnessed them, first-hand. Son ain’t buying and I think part of ex’s karma is the “loss” of his only son. I doubt son will ever speak to ex again.

Daughter, older, was not home. She was not given – nor has she asked for – any details from me, other than my telling her I had filed for divorce after I discovered his cheating, and after waiting for months for him to do something, which he never did. I did tell her I filed because of his adultery. He, however, has apparently been setting the stage with her for years, taking her out to lunch – which I only recently heard about – a number of times and dumping on her how “unhappy” he was and how “mistreated and unappreciated” he was (the timing of these lunches appear to coincide with the start of his relationship with the OW) She’s bought it – hook, line, and sinker – and recently told my sister-in-law that she sees now that this whole thing was my fault; I drove him away. She doesn’t know about the devaluation, the slow discard, how he’d disconnected and treated me merely as domestic staff. How insidiously evil he was, how mean. The constant corrections and belittling of me in public; 95% of what she knows, he’s fed her. I think – I really do – that she’s slowly getting it, how what he says is not what he does. Like “I’ll never marry her,” then marrying her six months after our divorce was final and neglecting to tell daughter for over a month, and only then because daughter was seeing him at Christmas in ex’s and whore’s new home and there’d be no way to hide it. Or demanding immediate help from my son in law to lay flooring at the new lovenest (which ex got) but not following through with picking up the project car ex dropped at daughter’s house (in their front yard) he had to remove when the marital home was sold 18 months ago. He was picking it up over Memorial Day, 4th of July holiday, the when he was in town with his trailer in August, the over Labor Day. . . it’s still there in her front yard as of last Saturday. I’m sure he had a million reasons and excuses why. Point being, he’s around and connected when there’s kibbles in it for him. My point being here is that I did not “slop” onto her to “protect” her and it appears that may have backfired. My daughter doesn’t view me as a fellow woman, has not acknowledged my pain, does not want to hear anything that remotely sounds like “badmouthing” her father, and appears to be excusing his infidelity because “I’ve never seen him so happy.” Uh-huh. So, honey, it’s ok he’s made himself happy by unilaterally destroying your family? The end does not justify the means. She’s smart, she’ll figure it out.

But you know. There’s value in the truth. You’re cutting your mom slack there, and I hope she finds a more appropriate place to process her grief. As others have suggested, please send her here. Hugs to you, Chumpkid.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

Yes, Dear ChumpKid, just sugar-coated truth.

Like you, my eldest son does not like to hear the gory details, but my two youngest do not get upset with ME, only with their cheater dad.

And why do I slop some of the gory details on my ADULT (all in their 30s) sons? Well, because I wish my ex-mother-in-law had slopped on her sons the gory details of her cheater.

But, instead of maybe learning a life lesson with my mother-in-law’s plight with my ex-father-in-law, a gold medalist for creepiness, douche-bagness, etc., my ex-husband and all of his brothers always only saw her paint a rosy picture of their father whose “head was turned by this malevolent siren”. Spackle and pick-me dance was all they saw.

And ALL of my mother-in-law’s eight sons ended up being cheaters in some way.

Of course my MIL can’t be blamed for these actions, but in 42 years I NEVER ONCE heard my cheater or his brothers reflect on their father’s shit and character. Only fantasize about their wealthy dad.

Instead they would chip in (as I and some sisters-in-law were bullied into as well) to help their father (far and beyond the call of duty) after he went bankrupt because of stupidity.
My father-in-law did not leave my mother-in-law homeless and hungry only because the eldest son finally stepped in and took her to a lawyer, but even this one “forgave dad” because he had given him a car when no young person owned a car (in the 1960s). Turns out, this brother-in-law cheated on me about money least three times. He is almost 80, can’t afford to retire, and is now an employee of the business he used to own because of all the stupid mistakes he himself has made.

So maybe your mom is not using you as a friend, but trying to teach you a lesson to avoid further pain for you.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

This is exactly the case in my narc ex’s family as well, ClearWaters. Ex’s father was a narcissistic (or possibly sociopathic), serial cheating, wife-and-child beater. MIL finally kicked him out when she realized he was sleeping around … including with her own sister.

MIL is very proud of the fact that she ‘never said a negative word to the children about their father’. My kids say ‘maybe if she had, her son would have learned that there are some behaviours that are unacceptable within a marriage, and there are consequences for our choices.’

Interestingly, despite herself being a covert narc, I think, and this awful awful husband, then a 2nd husband who was ‘only’ super controlling and verbally abusive, of her 4 kids, only my ex turned into a threatening narc cheater. The other 3 seem like very decent people (and they haven’t had anything to do w/my ex for decades, which I didn’t realize at first because they were in another country). I think my ex was the one born with the low empathy genes, and was his mom’s Golden Child. So toxic.

My mother is also very self-centered and uninterested in anyone else, including her own kids and grandchildren. I guess not surprising that I married first a very attractive, super smart and loving … alcoholic, then a narc cheater.

My goal is that the crazy stop here. I want my kids to be healthier, and much wiser in their relationship choices, than either side of their family. I kicked narc ex out when they were 11 and 12, and pretty quickly realized that the 4 or 5 years before that, when I tried to make it work for them, were a big mistake. I should have left sooner.

Dee
Dee
6 years ago

My heart goes out to you Chumpkid. You aren’t alone. My daughters are in the same predicament. They don’t really want a relationship with their dad, but feel compelled to play the game as he does still provide some financial support for them. They each see their dad alone about once a week, for coffee or a movie. But they have both been very clear about boundaries. Neither willingly spends any time as a family unit with their father, Schmoopie and the replacement daughters (though they actually know the daughters well and certainly have no ill will against them).

They have found that there is always a price to pay. Their dad manipulates, but they see each situation for what it is. He gets angry when they refuse to spend family time with Schmoopie or buy her gifts. But only they can decide when the emotional cost of their ‘relationship’ outweighs the benefit of his financial support.

My advice to my daughters has been similar to CL’s advice to you: you get to choose the nature of your relationship with your dad, and it’s up to you to enforce the boundaries. If you choose to have superficial contact, no one should judge. I can’t imagine telling a newly divorced parent not to accept child or spousal support from a cheating ex, so why should you feel guilty for accepting money from your cheating father? My guess is that his contact towards you is superficial as well (demanding you say ‘I love you’ at the end of phone calls is a tip-off), so your dad is merely reaping what he has sown. Accepting his financial support does not mean you are selling out, and it doesn’t mean that you endorse his infidelity, shitty parenting decisions, and poor character. You are simply accepting the financial support he is providing. Say a polite thank you – the same way you thank the person who bags your groceries, or the one who holds the elevator door. But be vigilant and be prepared to support yourself should the need arise.

You have been dealt an unfair blow in having to deal with the fallout from your parents’ divorce during you busy college years. But it sounds like you have a very bright future ahead of you. Hold your head high!

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee, your comment about your daughters seeing their dad once a week for coffee or a movie is really resonating with me this morning! Kind of a revelation that all these disordered jerks can handle is a “play date” with their children on their terms. Like I don’t have enough to do with managing play dates with their friends as a single parent. Lol

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

I think that’s all ex can handle too. I think he wants more, but just doesn’t know how to connect so he just takes them on outings and then brings them home right away. He often shows up early and leaves late. If he does spend more than a few hours with them he looks wrung out when he drops them off later. He did manage to help daughter with her calculous homework the other day, however, which I think made him feel better (yay, did something useful for daughter), but he rarely has time for that sort of thing. At first I was jealous that daughter accepted homework help from Dad, but doesn’t seem to want it from me (I am the engineer after all and know some math), but now I realize she wants that from her dad because that is one of the only ways they can truly connect in a positive way. It’s the only time they both feel good after spending time together and I don’t want to get in the way of that.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago

Ooop, that should have read “he often shows up late and gets back early”

Dee
Dee
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Totally, FeelingIt! The oldest started the once weekly visits when she was 15 (now 18). Ex has actually told me he has an ‘awesome!’ relationship with this daughter. Really?!? He saw her only once a week during those crucial teenage years, and he defines that as an an awesome father-daughter relationship? Wow.

ChumpKid
ChumpKid
6 years ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee,

My dad sees me once every few months for a dinner or a show, and then goes on Facebook and talks about his “amazing” daughter and the great relationship we have, and then all of his Facebook friends pat him on the back. Kibbles all ’round!

Dee
Dee
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

@Chumpkid – You are wise beyond your years. I can imagine just how much it annoys you to see those posts. Just remember that it’s called Fakebook for a reason – my guess is that the people closest to your situation see right through the facade. This sounds a bit cruel and business-like, but I would adopt a ‘polite but detached’ manner with your dad so that you can maintain your sanity while he still supports you. Stay focussed on your studies. Two years will go by in a blink. At that point you may be in a better position to further distance yourself and/or tell him exactly how you feel. Hang in there!

Polly
Polly
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

I know very little about having shitty parents, however, I graduated in 2010 during the recession and I know a thing or two about student loans and college debt. Th economics of working through school are not what they once were. You need a lot of experience before landing a decent full time job instead of just scraping by. You’ll be able to work through a masters degree, as masters degrees are designed for working people, but not bachelors. Take the money. His financial support may come with an emotional price, but it will leave you with much more space for you to explore professional opportunities. What about studying abroad for a year? You get away from his crap and can still take the money and blow off his calls due to the time difference. You have the option for internships and volunteering and sports etc. You mentioned wanting the room to do those things, maybe you can just stay too busy to answer the phone. Keep your professional goals on point, make those first priority (maybe you can drown out the emotional narcissism of your dad?) Good luck with whatever you decide!!

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

My ex makes a point of taking selfies w/the kids(16 and 17 ys old), who, by their choice, see him for a few hours, once a month. They are sure the pics go out to his family, to make it look like he sees them often and they have all sorts of fun.

It’s all about the image!

MightyChris
MightyChris
6 years ago

I don’t think there’s much of a moral conundrum here as to whether to take the money or not. Whatever you decide is 100% OK, but obviously taking his support (which he is bound to provide) comes with difficult strings attached.

But I would just add to what has been said by CL in terms of, don’t write off the value of working your own way rather than taking his money. If it comes to it, have faith that you can make it on your own, and the experience of doing so will only make you stronger & your achievements more worthwhile still. The tougher the experience, the more it’ll forge you.

That said, there’s a life skill in knowing when it’s worth suffering for your pride and when it’s not. Just… don’t let him hold the money over you.

chirral
chirral
6 years ago

CL – I’m a little confused over the statement “by law, you’re not entitled to his support”. First, it depends on the state, but in some there is a legal requirement to contribute to college costs and in some states child support legally goes until the age of 21. Second, if the college contribution is court-ordered, doesn’t that make it legally required? I.E. the law requires that we comply with a divorce decree because if you don’t you get to be hauled back in on contempt?
I know many parents do not fill their court-ordered support responsibilities, my ex is one of them, but CK should not be made to feel she is not “entitled” to that support if Dad, who sucks in many ways, just happens to comply with a court order.

insistonhonesty
insistonhonesty
6 years ago
Reply to  chirral

Yes. Here in NY, child support goes to 18 *unless* they go to college. Then, it stops at 21. My paternal aunt would report how disappointed my bio-father was, when he’d hear about the great student I was and wanted to be either a lawyer or political translator. How great… to know that not only did he never give a shit about me but he hoped I’d not go to college, so he could keep his $75/week, which was half what he should have been paying, even for his under-reported/self-employed income.

chirral
chirral
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Just as an FYI – I am that single mom struggling mightily to get CS enforced. And I agree, enforcement is key.

insistonhonesty
insistonhonesty
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Here in NY, it has changed mightily over the years. My mother used to have to stalk where my bio-dad was, to serve him over and over. Guilt trip his mother into saying where he was or what he was doing. She was a pro and helped MANY women nail their exes asses to the wall, pro se.

Now? It’s automatic. The default is garnishment via SS#. If any public assistance of any kind is used (WIC, childcare assistance, healthcare aid of any kind, HEAP, etc., not just “welfare” and “food stamps”), even if the mother has agreed to little or no child support from the bio-dad, the state MANDATES that the father pay child support also. The STATE will take them to court on the child’s behalf, for child support and/or health coverage and/or childcare costs. If they quit their job? Driver’s license. All hunting licenses. Business licenses. Anything up to and including their passports. Tax refunds. All of it.

It’s good stuff. However, it also makes many of them flee the state. The plus side? Not having to deal with those fuckups anymore… no custody arrangement to deal with, no mindfuckery for you or the kids, no visitation schedules to discuss. And knowing they’ll be living like fugitives until the kids are 21.

lyndaloo
lyndaloo
6 years ago

In Ontario Canada, after settlement is reached, the court sends an order automatically to the employer and the amount is deducted from the pay cheque and deposited with court, then sent on to the custody parent. The big problem is the guys and gals who move from job to job. At least the ones that stay put pay for their kids. My brother in law decided he wasn’t going to pay for his 21 year old daughter who was still in university getting a second degree, she sued her father and he had to continue to pay until she graduated. Now this last case was in Quebec Canada and they have different tougher laws altogether.

Let go
Let go
6 years ago
Reply to  lyndaloo

I hope this gives you a chuckle. A woman who worked in CSR was constantly having to haul deadbeat parents to jail. One day she told me a man came in dressed in leather and wearing a dog collar with metal spikes on it. He figured he could scare that 120 pound woman out of enforcing the law. When he asked her what she thought she was going to do to him she told him she wanted to nail his balls to the window sill but she guessed she would take him before our very tough judge and get his ass thrown in jail. He paid up.

Luziana
Luziana
6 years ago
Reply to  chirral

Chiral, the LW is in grad school. Implies she is over 21. I believe CL is pointing out the difference between criminally and civilly enforceable clauses of divorce decrees.

College expenses would be a civil concern. It sounds like Dad doesn’t know that. Let’s not clue him in that the only possible consequence he’d have if he stopped paying is a contempt motion.

Indomitable
Indomitable
6 years ago

Hello Chumpkid
How awful to be under the thumb of anyone because you need money to live. If you read this site then you know that there are many married women who are stuck with their abusive husbands for that reason and many more people who will be tied to untenable divorce agreements that oblige them to share parenting with their ex-spouse because they need that decree to get support payments. If you read enough stories here, you will figure out that to find peace, you need to be free of unhealthy relationships and very often, the key to that freedom is finding financial independence. If your letter was about a wife who was distressed about being in an unhappy relationship but could not leave because she was in an education program that she could not finance independently, your fellow chumps would be all over you with advice about getting loans from other family members as a back up plan, getting part-time jobs, going to school part-time etc. The bottom line is that you are experiencing emotional abuse that will have lasting effects on you. You deserve better than that.You don’t have to get into conflict with him but you can keep your distance and make a back up plan in case he decides to cut you off.

Awakening Dreamer
Awakening Dreamer
6 years ago
Reply to  Indomitable

Really insightful

Paintwidow
Paintwidow
6 years ago

My 20yr old college student daughter and her now graduated from college brother could of written this letter. Their dad just up and left the family the December prior to her senior year in high school, my son was in his senior year of college.
Why then? Because he heard that 17 yrs was the magic number in Fl to make me s candidate for permanent alimony so he decided to go full time with schmoopie 3 months before that day.
My kids were as blindsided as I was.
My daughter wrote him off from pretty much day one, my son tried for a few months to keep the relationship going.
My son was graduating at the end of the year he left, had his financial aid for school in place, and didn’t rely on him for anything. He did live at home that year just because he knew that now that I was newly single and the money would be in negotiation for awhile I couldn’t be counted on to help with expenses of him living on campus. He commuted.
I too worked college into the divorce for my daughter, what I didn’t include (because I assumed he would never be shitty enough to kick her off) was making sure he couldn’t take her off his health insurance.
He’s left it alone, says he will till she graduates, but reminds us constantly that “my” daughter should treat him better and that he graciously gives her health insurance that he could take away but he won’t cause he’s “not a dick”.
I disagree.
If my kids wanted a relationship with him, I would support her or him in that.
They don’t forget that my ex was very absent during their childhood and distracted when he was around and a serial cheater.
He liked that a family made him look good. It fit what he wanted to project to the outside world. I always knew this, I picked up the slack with the kids,and tried to be better so he would want to be with us.
I Knew I should leave but didn’t because I had kids, thought if only I was better, and I liked the paycheck…..the devil I knew…now he says the kids hate him because I shared too much, not because he’s an asshole.
My son is now a teacher, living his own life, doesn’t dwell on it much.
My daughter, would go without health insurance, and would work three jobs to pay her tuition if she had to. She’s very certain he’s toxic, through therapy recognizes he’s a narcissist, understands that’s a disease with no cure, and wants to move on from him.
He’s not going quietly, he sends them “love u/ miss u, you should give schmoopie a chance, I don’t love my new kids more than you” texts ALL THE TIME. My daughter feels sick too when she sees it. My son will actually call his sister when he gets one of those texts because he’s certain she’s gotten it too and knows they shake her up.
My ex doesn’t care, he’s just mad they don’t either.
He wants them because they don’t want him. If they did, he wouldn’t want them anymore.
CK, as a mom….I know I’m sorry that I exposed my kids to that. I’m sure your mom is too.
TAKE. THE. MONEY.
If all it takes is a superficial conversation now and again…..whatever.
I got my ex to lease me a car on his credit for 3 years as part of my divorce just because I said “we all know you are awesome” in one of my post break up conversations with him.
A small piece of my soul died, but I did what I had to do and felt that I had been lied to and manipulated for 20 years….so why not?
Once the divorce was done and my non modifiable agreement was signed he learned what I actually thought of him.
Take the money, graduate, then decide where he fits on YOUR terms. If he doesn’t fit, then buh-bye.

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  Paintwidow

Oh, yeah. Their timing is so calculated. Now, I finally get that my use to him was basically to function as a babysitter so those darned kids didn’t cramp his style.

But he wonders why they aren’t close. Hmm. Such a mystery, huh? Sheesh.

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago
Reply to  Paintwidow

Yep yep yep. They are all cold blooded fuckers. Son 1 in first yr college…son 2 last DAY in school and daughter day after 16th bday. NICE. Thx dad say no more they get it

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago
Reply to  Whodoesthat

Left that day no prior warning

CollegeMom
CollegeMom
6 years ago

Very very similar. My daughter was in your shoes. She is still in college but is also working full time.
Fact is-someone like that will throw supporting you in your face no matter how successful you are.
‘You wouldnt be where hou are if I hadnt paid for it.’
Reduce your class load if needed to work more and taje that power out if his hands.
Then if it ever comes up you can say ‘I did this.’

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  CollegeMom

I don’t think anybody should make financial or ‘life’ sacrifices, just so some asshole can’t throw their OBLIGATORY support in their faces.

TAKE THE MONEY, then when he claims the credit for your success (and he will), just give him a slow blink, then break out laughing, and walk away.

The way to avoid being manipulated isn’t to do what they want even before they manipulate. It’s to refuse to take the bait.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago

People are really something…and cluster Bs stay that way.

My narc/BPD/alcoholic parents wanted me & bro to give them all the bragging rights of a fancy education and none of the parental contribution. My dad wanted me to go to a military academy and I didnt have the math scores. He was disappointed in me for years.

I went to a very cheap vocational school because university was out of the question. Mom is now demented from alcohol and she tells about how generous, supportive and loving they were. Delusional.

bepositive
bepositive
6 years ago

ChumpKid, My daughter could have written this letter. She is in grad school as well and her father is constantly on her back telling her she needs to pay her bills (she does), she needs to get a better job (she works part-time at a department store while going to school part-time), she needs to come visit him and his new wife. He then proceeds to ask her why her brother (who is older than she) does this, does that, why does he still live at home (he’s paying down student loans because his dad spent his college savings). She becomes physically ill worrying about what she should say to him or how she should handle him (her brother doesn’t take any shit from either his dad or his dad’s new wife).
My heart hurts for you ChumpKid. You should never have to deal with a parent who is like this. My advice is 1) get a new therapist. Someone familiar with divorce and family dynamics can help you through this much better than a college counselor. 2) You don’t have to tell your dad that you love him. Throw him the bone of telling him you appreciate his support, if you like. 3) Remember, you DON’T have to have a relationship with him – this is your decision to make. Yes, there may be consequences but you need to weigh those against your peace of mind.
If you decide that you can stick this out for 2 more years, more power to you! (My daughter finishes next summer.) I know how difficult this is for you and I wish you every happiness going forward. Hang in there – we’ll do what we can to help.

Tattles
Tattles
6 years ago

If you continue your relationship with your dad, I would encourage you to really minimalize things in your mind. Kinda like how a divorced parent has to co-parent with a kook ex. You have to mentally reorient your attitude and relationship – you know what he does and what he is like. He is a small part of your life that you only occasionally interact with, and then you mentally set him aside again. Small piece of things. It definitely takes practice.

Also keep in mind that once someone jumps ship to the dark side, that messes with every single thing they do from then on out – it doesn’t matter how you act toward them. They just are what they are now. Kinda like supposedly how when a pet tastes blood, well that pet “ain’t safe and ain’t no good no more.” We are like that too when we do something awful and refuse to repent of it.

And lastly – he’s probably being totally used by his new family. You get what you pay for, eh?

Shechump
Shechump
6 years ago
Reply to  Tattles

Tattles, very well said!

Zell
Zell
6 years ago

You’re still a kid- and concentrating on college is very important. Help your mom by helping her find a therapist (recognize the fatigue you will have for hearing her pain while dealing with your own) and a copy of Chump Lady’s book- it has become my personal bible- it does help.

Rhapsody98
Rhapsody98
6 years ago

My cheater dad had to be a white knight, and help anyone out, except his kids. For her birthday, he promised my sister new tires. And four months later she bought them herself. He was pissed off, but still logical enough to see it when I pointed it out how she couldn’t wait anymore.

In the meantime, his new girlfriend, who I sort of liked, decided “they shouldn’t put labels on things,” which meant she decided having him and letting him cheat was better than not having him.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Rhapsody98

Yes….narcs. My mom loved to rescue and help as a source of kibbles but wouldn’t do shit for me. I was her very lowest priority. Now she wants me to commit to caring for her (nope) and give her money (nope nope).

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

As a teen, my friends thought my mom was the coolest! She was so interested in them, so attentive to whatever they wanted to talk about, seemed so concerned about them …

Of course, she had ZERO interest in her own kids. Nada.

It’s all about the image.

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago

If a supposedly loving father constantly emails his children on every cent he puts their direction for just living expenses after he leaves everyone high and dry with $0 after a privileged lifestyle…. then you know you are dealing with a very guilty conscience. Unfortunately that does not manifest into shame for said actions. Meanwhile i now realise the cheating fuck was spending money hand over fist then…maybe on new fuck …now i can actually save money on a PT shitty wage while looking after 3 college age kids no income. Echo the sentiment ACTIONS not words . Wankface still manages to weasel his email rhetoric to make out he is poor victim just making the most of his time on earth as a bucket list he had to work through at the expense of his own kids. Famous last words . He quotes a crappy movie. Lifes too short… be excellent to one another …!!???(then adds to it… and yourself…made up shit to make him feel validated) seriously fuck off and grow some

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  Whodoesthat

I don’t think it’s about guilt at all. It’s ENTITLEMENT. He contributes a tiny bit to their support, and he wants ALL THE CREDIT, all the recognition, all the gratitude ….. My ex is like this, as if everyone should be bowing at his feet because he actually supports his kids financially (although much less so now, the legal minimum, actually, because they weren’t bowing and scraping enough, given his crap behaviours toward them).

Lulu
Lulu
6 years ago

I would find out the specific details of the divorce settlement so you can make an informed decision.

If he’s legally obligated to support you while you’re in college, no questions asked, then you’re pretty much in the clear. You don’t have tolerate his bullshit, but he still needs to pay.

If there’s any ambiguity (such as he has to pay for your tuition, but not necessarily your housing or living expenses), then put on an Academy Award-winning performance for “Most Loving and Devoted Daughter Ever” for the next 2 years. Let him throw his pity parties over money. Pretend you’re happy for him and OW. Then, once your degree is in the mail, you can drop the charade and have any manner of relationship that works for you.

Yes, that’s deceptive, and yes that’s very selfish and mercenary. But it’s also impossible to deal honestly with a narc like your Dad.

Paintwidow
Paintwidow
6 years ago
Reply to  Lulu

“Yes, that’s deceptive, and yes that’s very selfish and mercenary.”
and exactly what they did to their families….most of them the entire marriage.
Go for it CK…..karma.

Mehmehdancer
Mehmehdancer
6 years ago

Kid, i am sorry u are caught in this situation. My advice is to take the money. The best revenge is to have a good life. Forge your own life, career, future whatever with his money which should have been given 100% to u and ur mother in the first place. Everything passes, 2 years is a drop in the ocean. Life us uncertain and its best to take what u can while he is giving it,

Lurkmode
Lurkmode
6 years ago

Use him like he used your mom — take the money (which your mom fought for) to advance yourself and kick him to the curb when you no longer need him.

defeatedchump
defeatedchump
6 years ago

You owe him nothing. Take his money with a clear conscience – he owes you that. All the debt is on his side, his responsibility. Once you no longer need his money just cut him off. He is legally obliged to pay for you so make him accept those consequences and don’t feel guilty or obligated in any way. You are lucky that you can be shot of him for ever eventually, but in the meantime take what he owes you and don’t let yourself be blackmailed emotionally.

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago

Don’t assume that if you walk away from your dad’s money that you walk away from his baggage. It’s actually hard work to cut someone off, and you may be trading one set of emotional distress for another. I’d recommend that you consider continuing to accept his support so you can continue your research position (which will most definitely benefit you upon graduation) and think about how you can set up some non-confrontational boundaries. Instead of him calling any time and losing his shit if you don’t answer, give him one or two times per week that you’re available, and make sure that you have laundry or something similar waiting (“Oops! There’s the dryer buzzer, gotta run. Thanks-for-everything-bye.”). Don’t keep asking for money. Instead, ask if he can set up auto-pay for your expenses so that you don’t have to keep asking every time the bills are due. I would not recommend this forever, but since you have a clear end game in two years, I think it’s okay to pick the shit sandwich that gets you to where you want to be rather than the shit sandwich of trying to cut off your dad in the middle of college.

And I wholeheartedly agree with CL that your mom fought for your continued support, and I think that makes it absolutely OK to take it (even through gritted teeth). Just make sure you don’t flip that concept and think that you’re then obligated to take it because your mom fought for it. Your mom fought for your freedom to have it if you wish.

Good luck, and I’m so sorry that your dad is a dick.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago

That’s a tough one. Accepting the blood money now may make it easier for you to end up with the fuck off money later. The other alternative is to learn how to get by on too little sleep so you have time to fold clothes and still keep you unpaid research job as well. Whatever you decide, realize that it is temporary. You have to either tough it out and deal with your dad for two more years, or you need to take on extra jobs and go without sleep for two years. Just look for that light at the end of the tunnel when your hard work pays off and you then have the freedom to blow off your dad and/or start sleeping again.

Meanwhile, is there any change of getting any financial support from your Mom or is she also financially dependent on your Dad and really has nothing to spare?

Good luck.

ChumpKid
ChumpKid
6 years ago

For what it’s worth, I did try. I went one whole summer of doing my research job, classes and a part-time job at a women’s clothing store before I completely broke down. I never sat down and calculated how many hours I spent working, but it felt like every waking moment. I did very poorly in my classes, my research was underbaked and the store complained I wasn’t “putting the customers first” by working more hours.

FindingBliss
FindingBliss
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

You are an amazing woman, Chumpkid. I wish you the very best in life and in my experience, kind, caring, smart, hardworking individuals such as yourself do usually achieve their goals and enjoy success. You are awesome!

Magneto
Magneto
6 years ago

Both my daughters could have written this. WHAT is it and the youngest graduating? It has been 3 1/2 years, and xh gives both daughters nothing for school.
I have a MagnetoDoctor and a MagnetoEngineer at university. Those are not cheap educations.

My advice? If dear old dad will pay some money to help you, Chumpkid, SMILE like a Jackass eating brambles when you see him. Google a picture….

As the penguins from Madagascar say; #Smileandwaveboys, justsmileandwave….. Getting the best possible education with the least debt is your ultimate goal, it will help propel you faster into financial success.
You don’t have to give overtures, I like the “Thanks for the tuition, Cheater.” line. You can show gratitude without having to gush…..

UNFORTUNATLY, you may be in the same chump infinity loop your mom was in. No matter HOW much you thank, grovel and “appreciate him”, – it will probably never be enough. He is going to write his own narrative about you, too. So you can not suck up and placate him thinking it is going to have long term good effect.

It may or it may not. Cheaters are not know for actually playing by the truth, books or facts. Don’t feel like you have to, either…..

#sorrynotsorry.

Got-a-brain
Got-a-brain
6 years ago

My daughter is going through this exact same thing, off at her first year of college.

It’s horrible that anyone has to be in the positions of weighing their morals against self-preservation. Cheaters put people in this position every day in the wake of every destroyed marriage. Kids are put up as collateral damage and it SUCKS!

Here’s the struggle I have as the non cheating parent. Beliefs often will eventually fall in line to match behaviors that are in conflict with our beliefs. If you think cheating is wrong, and it makes you angry, yet you “play nice” to have your needs met, eventually you will need to make exceptions as to why maybe it wasn’t so bad.

I’ve tried to raise my children with strong morals, doing the “right” thing over the “easy” thing. The reality I am concluding in all of this is, doing the right thing often puts you at a disadvantage. Because I love my daughter, I do not think it is fair that she should struggle because of the choices her father made. Does part of me wish that because of HER hurt (not mine), she could say “I don’t need your damn money!” … absolutely, but I also know she would be making life harder for herself.
It breaks my heart to see him use his financial power over her to secure the relationship – that’s not what healthy relationships look like. But … I also see her taking that help right now as a step she must take to ensure as an adult, she can avoid being in that position.

Here’s what I tell my children…

You didn’t have a choice in all of this, but you get to choose how you will let it shape you. Like CL said, you can take his support and his behavior and let it shape you into a strong independent woman who will never have to accept the shit sandwich again.

So many people take the route of insisting cheating isn’t done to the kids (super invalidating to their pain), it’s done to the marriage. Yes, you were betrayed as well! I tell my children it is their job to share their feelings with their father and work that out between them. I suspect in many cases though, the cheater isn’t interested in understanding the pain they’ve caused, they just want you to accept it and get over it. How someone responds to your pain is telling – remember that! You don’t have to accept the shit sandwich because he’s your dad. You get to choose how you will allow him in your life – a good lesson for the rest of your life.

I know on some level my kids feel they are defending me by being pissed at their dad. I’ve made it clear to them that their dad is not my friend, but he is their father, and I would never want to take a parent from them by insisting they share my feelings. Though I appreciate that their love for me makes them want to defend me, that isn’t their job. I love them enough to want them to have two supporting parents, but I also know they can’t control how their parents show up. The only thing they control is how they themselves show up, and what they allow in their lives. That’s the rub of love, you don’t control it, you only participate in it.

It breaks my heart that children have to learn these lessons through the betrayal of a parent. In a perfect world that wouldn’t happen, but we don’t live in a perfect world. There are shitty people! People who will climb on your back to save themselves from drowning while pushing you under. The hard part is determine who will push you under, and who will stay on your level, working with you as a team to save both of you. The latter are the people you want in your life.

If you feel guilty for accepting his money, use that guilt to help someone else in the future. Set up a scholarship fund for kids of infidelity so they don’t have to go through what you did. Start a support group for teens of infidelity, anything that transforms the f*cked-up into something better! Throw away your shit sandwich and use its memory to make the world a better place! This blog wouldn’t exist if CL packed away that shit sandwich. Instead she used its lingering stench to create something to help others.

Good luck! You are mighty!

feelingit
feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Got-a-brain

So many people take the route of insisting cheating isn’t done to the kids (super invalidating to their pain), it’s done to the marriage. Yes, you were betrayed as well!

I want to shout this from the rooftops Gotabrain!!!

I feel the need to get on a soap box right now. These disordered people may be able to compartmentalize feelings, but they can’t compartmentalize the disorder- it is through and through. It effects them in their entirety.

I do realize their are chumps here that say their cheater’s are great fathers but lousy husbands. But mostly, I hear they suck at both. I know damn well mine does and it becomes more and more evident the more he loses power over us.

Maybe it is more evident in the ones that ghost and leave like mine. He didn’t just leave me, he left the kids. He couldn’t take the responsibility or what he considered competition for attention. I think him perceiving me giving the kids more attention than I was giving him was the driving force behind his leaving. Now he just wants them for show and it isn’t going his way.

ChumpKid
ChumpKid
6 years ago
Reply to  Got-a-brain

Thank you for this. I especially like the idea of setting up a support group for teens/young adults affected by infidelity. My dad’s actions basically bombshelled my life, and it took me a long, long time to reach even an approximation of “meh” about it.

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpKid

A support group for teens/young adults affected by infidelity sounds like a wonderful idea. I know my daughter (17) would love to hear from other children who’s parent blew up their lives through infidelity.

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago
Reply to  Got-a-brain

Wonderful words of advice.

JillW
JillW
6 years ago

Great advice. Do not feel guilty sweet girl! Whatever your choice may be, own it. Hold your head high and remember you have a mother who believes in YOU!

Chompingchump
Chompingchump
6 years ago

I’m an academic and I do see the trend that colleges are a lot more expensive, and academic careers more competitive than they were a generation ago. But there are paid summer research internships available especially at national labs and programs like Research Experiences for Undergraduates, at least for STEM careers. They pay at least as much as flipping burgers and that way you can concentrate on research during the summer while focusing on class work (and possibly flipping burgers) during the academic year. There are also TA/grading jobs at some colleges that pay during the school year. This post serves as a reminder to me of the importance of funding these programs. I don’t know what the right answer is in dealing with narc father but here are at least some options. Good luck!

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago

ChumpKid,
My three sons are also going through this, there is also a ChumpKid Nation.

Narcissistic cheaters also need ego-kibbles from their children and will manipulate them to get these kibbles. It seems that E-Ks from children are very important for impression management by cheaters. Children are specially vulnerable to this manipulation. It does not take much imagination to guess why.

I hear two lines of thought/see two scenarios in today’s replies to your letter and both involve shutting down your E-K supply to your dad:
A) Use the court ordered money to achieve your goals, which are indeed very noble and, for those who can afford it, a parent’s obligation and joy.
versus
B) Suffer your dad’s revenge for shutting off his special E-K supply, but then use the opportunity to acquire awesome “fuck-off” skills (I LOVE that description), while STILL pursuing AND achieving your noble goals, but just taking a longer, rougher, but probably more solid, honest and pedagogical path.
There is much to be learned through difficulties, but this depends very much on your outlook on “folding-clothes”: unfair, a drudge, waste of time versus opportunity and integrity intact. And you might meet a wonderful person folding clothes. You never know.

From what I can assess of your situation I would shut down the E-Ks and then … whatever… because the bottom lines are:
1) This cheater is your father and, up to a point, has an obligation, moral and legal, to support your honest efforts to prepare yourself for a profession. And you are not OK with being an E-K supply/manipulated in order to achieve your goals.
2) If your dad shuts off your support for lack of E-Ks, you WILL survive and get all your degrees if you go for the path of “fuck-off” skills. In fact, this will enrich you.

My uncle abandoned my five cousins as toddlers up to teenagers; he supported his AP’s two children and his daughter with AP through college even. Among the abandoned cousins, three did very well: two have master’s degrees and all three have fruitful careers; the other two had a shit life which they always blamed their father for. Never let anyone write your story for you.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Forgot this: Not to mention the family resources spent on his affairs; if he argues that it is HIS money, answer that he should have let you all know about this BEFORE you had committed your time and energy on your professional preparation.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago

It is interesting to hear a daughter of cheater perspective. I have trouble sometimes managing my own relationship to my daughter in regards to the blow up of my marriage. I am fortunate that I have others to provide emotional support so I don’t have to dump it on my kids, but it is difficult when daughter wants to dump it on me. She has a love/hate relationship with her Dad that already preceded the blow up of the marriage to some extent and has now only gotten worse. When she complains about him and/or goes off on Schmoopie (who she also can’t stand, but ex it trying hard to convince her she isn’t a monster) it is really hard not to agree and want to be her ally in that. Instead I have tried to encourage her to continue to have a relationship with her dad because I do believe he loves her even if he doesn’t always know how to connect and I think in the long run she will benefit from having a positive relationship with him. I have also told her that if she can accept Schmoopie, her life will be easier although I reserve the right not to like her myself (do as I say, not as I do). Ultimately, I had to tell her that it would be best not to talk to me about Schmoopie and/or her dad (as it relates to the divorce) because A, I don’t want her to be caught in the middle between parents, and B, it is an emotionally difficult subject for me and I usually end up feeling depressed after those conversations. Luckily she has a therapist (for other issues in addition to the divorce which is just one more stresser in her life) to talk to. Meanwhile who knows what my boys are thinking and feeling because they don’t talk about it at all. I worry about that sometimes. I just try to keep their lives as normal as possible and in all fairness, ex has tried to do that too as best he can after blowing up their home life.

zyx321
zyx321
6 years ago

Jedi hugs to you, ChumpKid.
It really is hard to give advice, I fall into the “take the money” category, and agree with the other caveats. He agreed in the divorce to support you. It is the least he can do, you did not ask to be born. It is every parent’s responsibility to help their children get a head start in life, as much as they can– it might be emotional support, since financial support is not possible.

The issue here is how to disentangle yourself from the emotional blackmail.
My cheating divorced father gave me $75 a month during my college years. That was it. I had to pay my mother’s portion, plus my own portion, with work, grants, and loans.

Now my daughter is looking at colleges. I thought I had covered by bases and got “support college” in the divorce agreement. But since daughter is no contact with her father, he is refusing to pay anything unless she consults with him on her college choices, that he help with applications, etc.
That was a very low blow for her– that her father’s love was not unconditional and that he would use emotional blackmail to get her to contact him. There are other examples, this is just the most recent
(she went no contact after two episodes of suicidal ideation, the result of her father’s abandonment).

I suggested to my daughter that she simply email him with her choices– she does not have to read his suggestions/responses. She refuses.
I might call my attorney to see if there is anything to do re: college support.
*side note to those going through the divorce process– make sure the “support for college” is CLEARLY defined so the ex cannot weasel out of it.

Best of luck to you, ChumpKid. You are already on a great path, and you will succeed, the question is how long will it take if you decide to forgo the “money with strings attached.” Please keep us updated in the forums.

Merrychump
Merrychump
6 years ago

At least Chumpkid’s father isn’t using charm to trick his children into believing his fake love like my ex covert narc is doing. With his so-called charm and nice-guy-persona he made my children forget his infidelity and believe he is penniless, so I’m paying for everything and he’s smiling and being “nice”.
Above all I see it as a danger in the development of my children’s moral integrity, a validation for the cheater and a premise for imitating his dishonest character. I’m so scared of the “like father like son” effect.
If I were Chumpkid I’d make him pay every penny. He deserves a consequence for his betrayal, let it be at least this. When you see his phone calls, train yourself to reduce the power of his emotional blackmail counting all the lies and the neglect he put you through. Then you can thank him of course, and say to yourself that he isn’t paying enough for moral compensation. He should pay more, remember it could be more expensive without your grants and scholarships. Be sure to enjoy your college experience in these years and thrive in all ways you can imagine, have the happy life you deserve. You should only care about building your happy memories, not about an angry cheater.

kb
kb
6 years ago

Hi CK–

A lot of variations on similar themes here.

1. You get to choose what kind of relationship (if any) you have with your father. This relationship may change over the years. If he’s a narc, you’ll understand that he’s not able to make a real connection on an emotional level with you. He’ll be able to manipulate your emotions, though. Just set and enforce the boundaries that make the most sense for the kind of relationship you want to have.

2. His financial support comes with strings. I don’t think you have to feel bad about accepting the money. In a very real way, you’re lining up your ducks. No one would think poorly of you if you were a Chump trying to get herself set up for a better post-divorce outcome (i.e. saving money, getting the Cheater to pay for the new tires, etc.). You’ll graduate with little or no undergrad debt (nice, since you may need some graduate loans), and you’ll presumably be able to have a couple of articles published before you graduate, and your PI (Principle Investigator, for Chumps unfamiliar with academic acronyms) will be able to write you a bang-up letter of recommendation.

The price is that you’ll have to be civil to your narc father.

3. Gray Rock works because narcs hold up both sides of the conversation. You would think that they’d notice that you’re not interacting with them, but they take up so much space in their own world that they fail to perceive that you are not fully present. Think about it. How much of your life does your father know about? Can he name your two best friends? The name of your PI? The general topic of your research? Now think about what you know about his life. Odds are that you can name his boss, the major players in his company, the people he likes least, his major complaints, etc.

So when he calls up to talk (and you don’t have to initiate the calls), you can tell him you’ve been busy with school and research. You ask how things are with him. “Wow!” “Cool!” “Bummer!” “Well, there you go.” “It is what it is.” “Who knew?” These are all responses that will fill in the pauses in which you are expected to let him know how awesome he is. Close with, “You know, dad, I really want you to know how grateful I am for all the support you’re giving.” It’s not “I love you,” and your narc dad may pick up on the difference, but narcs also like to feel as if they’re the object of your gratitude. It feeds their sense of centrality. And of course, you are grateful that he’s currently meeting his legal obligations.

Explore different therapists. If your therapist is with your school’s health service, yes, there probably is more familiarity with the standard college student problems of anxiety and depression (and I’m not trivializing either of these). However, there probably is someone with experience in relationship abuse or dealing with children who have witnessed relationship abuse. You might talk with your local women’s shelter to see if they have any recommendations. It may be that there’s someone at your university’s health services who does have experience in dealing with children who’ve come from a background of relationship abuse.

At any rate, good for you for thinking about your options. You are definitely in the driver’s seat here. Now go map out the best course for YOU and YOUR future.

Cheers!

Let go
Let go
6 years ago
Reply to  kb

I agree with KB. I think you can manage this. When the Chumps bring up gray rock what they are trying to tell you is to not become emotionally engaged with him. You need to stay on the surface so that his behavior and his words do not penetrate and get you upset. It takes practice but you can do it. What people don’t realize is that every time you get into a situation like this your body recognizes stress. It does not know the difference between your nasty father and a bear with claws. It only knows that it senses danger. It floods your body with hormones. Those hormones are designed to get you out of danger quickly. The problem is they can be toxic if they are present in your body all the time. It takes hours for your body to get rid of them after an incident. That is why gray rocking is so important to you. It isn’t that you just pretend you are indifferent you MUST be indifferent. You must realize that your father is a horrible person. That is a terrible thing to have to adjust to but he is. He is a horrible person.
I suggest you take up yoga. Every time you have an interaction with him get off the phone and give yourself a few minutes of meditation to get your body centered again. You really do need some way to destress from your dealings with him.
The hardest thing for a child to come to terms with is that the parent that they love is a bad person. It is so puzzling to adults when a child hangs on to a very bad parent. The problem with being raised by one is you hang onto them long after you are grown. We all want unconditional love and validation from our parents. You need to start letting go of your father emotionally. He has always been this way but as he’s gotten older and more selfish the harder it has been for him to hide this. You and your sibling are going to have to understand what you are dealing with. It will help if your sibling feels the same way as you do. My siblings and I had to come to terms with the fact that our father was so emotionally damaged by his parents that we were not able to depend on him for anything. It was a hard pill to swallow but we managed because we had each other for support.

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
6 years ago

“Whatever you do, don’t make the mistake of putting up with shit for a lifestyle. Don’t be a person who fakes a relationship for goodies or thinks they can “nice” a narcissist into caring. Be the kind of person who has her own fuck off money and fuck off skills.” THIS. Thank you, once again, CL, for cutting to the chase and putting this message out there loud and clear! Living with an abusive narcissist father set me up for the hell that I went through in two partnerships of nearly a decade each. The first half of my life was spent playing “pick me,” being used, and living in fear and anxiety. I got an education (which I paid for by myself) and I had my own salary, but I still needed these people to validate me. Every woman needs her own fuck off money, fuck off skills, AND fuck off SENSE OF SELF WORTH. THIS is what I want for my daughters and the other young women like the one who wrote this letter.

Traveling the World
Traveling the World
6 years ago

CK, please go find another therapist. There are plenty of “regular” (non-college) therapists who are more than accustomed to dealing with this kind of thing.

SuperDuperChump
SuperDuperChump
6 years ago

My Dad was an asshole who loved a beer can more than his family. I just learned how to stay out of his way.

I was very fortunate to have an elderly neighbor who was a mirror image of Eastwood’s character in Gran Torino. His advice on everything was priceless. He taught me how to be a MAN and helped me to get my first job in the 8th grade.

I worked my way through college. It was tough, but I made it. My employers have never been concerned with my crappy GPA…they only focused on work ethic and character. They saw a motivated “Go Getter.”

When you have to do things the hard way, you also receive an awesome education that’s not taught in any classroom.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago

Bethel

“But what I regret the most, is not that debt, but being taught by a weak and self pitying mother to perform like a dancing money so men would give me things. You don’t need his money.”.

I’m not seeing a parallel here with CK’s situation. I was under the impression it was part of the settlement which Mom, the victim received FOR her daughter after DAD cheated and left to raise the OW’s kids. If so her mom is mighty!

CK is an adult and should demand respect from her father.

KathleenK
KathleenK
6 years ago

ChumpKid,
I’ve been reading your replies and you sound so intelligent, wise and strong! I have 2 kids, 18 and 20. My son has a very limited relationship with his dad – maybe a quick dinner every 2 or 3 weeks. My daughter is no contact with him. I am sorry you have the weird dynamic of the college tuition to deal with – my kids grandparents pay their tuitions and we are all so grateful. First, I want to say that your mom being honest with you (especially at your age with your obvious intelligence) is probably the best thing that could have happened. Otherwise she is gaslighting you like he gaslighted her. I withheld information from my kids during the first year, and my X worked valiantly to convince my kids that I was the problem. They were shocked beyond belief when they learned the truth. (He is the ultimate charmer and plays victim with the tears streaming down his face). The truth was a shock to all of us, but you can move pretty briskly on the path to boundaries when you are dealing with the truth. That’s why I think you will make good decisions for yourself – you can see clearly. Your dad sounds like a narcissist and if he is, one of his main goals is impression management. He would have a hard time NOT paying your tuition because that makes him look like a bad father – something narcs hate!! You should let him pay as much as he can.

It is so sad that you only have one father. That doesn’t mean you should have a relationship with him though – narcissists cannot have healthy relationships. My kids and I talk about how they only have the one dad whereas I could theoretically have another husband. We don’t talk about that to guilt them into having a relationship with their dad, but to acknowledge the sadness of what they are experiencing. It is so so sad Chumpkid and I am so sorry it’s happening. Good luck with everything!!! ((HUGS)))

cpj
cpj
6 years ago

The other options is that Narcs will be cowed by force. A letter from an attorney detailing noncompliance and a zero-tolerance policy for that will be a step that may work. You’ll have to play your own hand, but the first time superior force is introduced…they generally settle in.

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago
Reply to  cpj

Yep, this is true. The only time I could get my narc ex to move was through force via my lawyer. Sad that it takes that to do the right and honorable thing.

Khris
Khris
6 years ago

zyx321: My ex wife didn’t want anything in the decree about support for college. At the time of divorce my son (19 at the time) dropped out of college and was living with my ex. I wanted him to go back to college, but the ex told him she needed the help of his paycheck (that was a lie). This past spring he decided he wanted to return to college. The ex immediately told him “I can’t afford to contribute anything”. She told him to take student loans OR get me to pay for it. But get this, she was going to pick the college he goes to!

Long story short, he moved in with me (I live in different state from the ex) and attends a State University with me paying his tuition and books, the ex contributes NOTHING. Yeah, it is not easy but I am doing it. And being outside the ex’s tornado of drama he now realizes why we divorced. Has asked me several times why I stayed with her.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Khris

Newhusbands xw rode their daughters ass on a daily basis to get straight As and be valedictorian of her HS class but when daughter did so (and thus qualified to go to a bunch of fab schools) XW emotionally blackmailed the daughter to promise go to a shitty school in their home town.

There is a pile of money saved for this so money isn’t an issue, but were terrified that narc mom will find some emotionally manipulative way to prevent the daughter from leaving their small town. His daughter is a peach and I feel horrible for her, she is in narc hell.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago

I don’t have much more to add except to say I’m so very sorry that life has handed this shit sandwich to you.

My parents were also cheaters and although my dad died when I was a child and did not have a chance to abandon me he neglected me and abuse me while he was alive. My mom kicked me out on the streets when I was 16 because she thought I was a threat to the attentions of a new fuck buddy (I was 16- he was 55—ewwwww????????????).

I managed to continue HS working crazy hours at a minimum wage job all while couch surfing, then went to university while working 2 jobs, had a baby at 19 from an abusive drug addict. Heating narcissist BPD/sociopath who gave me a place to stay, “escaped” to another alcoholic narcissist, then to law school where I met and married and had 3 more kids with a serial cheater/narcissist BPD-abuser where I suffered 25 years of blameshifting and gaslighting, which felt very familiar and sadly “comfortable.” I “thought” I had a great life and good marriage and had escaped the hell of my early life and first short marriage….NOT! When DDay 1 hit 3 years ago I was blindsided.

I guess I’m trying to say be very careful in who you partner with. This abuse is so insidious and very hard to see when you are vulnerable, and subject to expert con artists.

Hugs. It’s not your fault….none of it.

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago

MotherChumper99,
Wow,
You have been through so much.
You are a true survivor.
I want to tell you that Mighty looks so good on YOU!

((((ManyHugs))))

moving forward
moving forward
6 years ago

I can empathize because my parents went through a nasty divorce when I was in University. It sucks when you realize your parents are not being mature, sane or rational — and that they aren’t even acting like adults.

Two Years Isn’t Very Long
I echo the other commenters here. Sure that money comes with strings attached but so does having terrible bosses and terrible jobs. You only have two years left. It is a specific and finite time frame. I know it feels like an eternity, but it ends once you graduate.

It is a Transaction
Also importantly, accepting the money doesn’t mean you are taking sides or that you are accepting of his behavior. Try to remove the emotion. Your job is to be a student.

Accept & Develop Boundaries
He is an ass and is never going to change. Accept that he is always going to be this way. You can’t change him BUT you can manage how you interact and deal with him. This doesn’t mean you are not worthy. It means that he is an ass.

Develop Boundaries with your Mom
I think this happens a lot to daughters. Moms feel comfortable spilling their guts, but some stuff is just not appropriate. If you can, try to set some boundaries here. It is a bit tricky but tell her when you are uncomfortable or when the issue is best addressed with a therapist/friend. If she isn’t going to counseling, encourage her to go.

pregnant chump
pregnant chump
6 years ago

There are a number of chumps here that are also children of cheaters. I am now dealing with my own chump experience. I wish now that I have enforced boundaries with my father and OW 16 years ago. The problem I had was my mum was not the sane parent due to the way she dealth with my father’s behaviour. Myself and my siblings were all still minors so we needed a parent so cheater father was the only one around. Due to this situation my dad never really suffered any consequences and my Mum took a lot of the blame. I am glad that you support your Mum and that you are showing your dad that his actions do have consequences. I can’t really advise you on the money side. My dad was good to my Mum financial whereas my ex gives me the minimum required by law. I don’t know if that makes one better than the other or whether he did it for his image management. I know that I am doing my best to enforce boundaries with my ex, which is hard when the children are very young. I struggle now as what to do about my dad as they are my primary help with childcare due to where I live. I see both my dad and ex for what they are now as you do with your father. I am working on how to deal with the situation that I have been put in by my dad and my ex. I know I want my kids to be like you when they are older. I can see you understand just how devestating being a chump is and you will not be repeating your dad’s behaviour in your relationships. You will hopefully also be able to see any red flags that potential partners exhibit and be able to stop yourself becoming a chump yourself.

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago

ChumpKid, I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. My daughter (17) has a fractured relationship with her father due to his cheating on me, and I wish the two of you could talk.

There are no easy answers here. But you have to do what’s best for you. On one hand, it would be ideal if you could do this all by yourself and not have to rely on him for money. On the other, I know how difficult that is, especially if you’re in academia and want a career in academia.

I don’t have any good advice, but I just wanted to say that I’m sorry you’re going through this, but that you are strong and you have a good head on your shoulders. You’re going to be just fine. 🙂

Marci
Marci
6 years ago

Chumpkid,
I had to deal with my father after he cheated on Mom when she was dying of cancer. My sister and brother cut him off.

I had always managed his and Mom’s money (most of it my maternal grandmother’s) so I felt I had to keep up the charade in case he buzzed off with the whole lot and cut us out of what really was our mother’s. His second wife (the OW and married six months after Mom’s death) managed to spend a lot of it, but my presence guilted him into keeping us in his will.

He lived another 16 years, and I can well relate to that creepy feeling whenever he called. He was so needy. I bore the brunt of my siblings’ rejection of him. I often felt conflicted, but basically, I managed to keep my eye on the money.

Now, he has been dead for 10 years. I saw him right to the end and even fought a legal battle against the OW’s children who challenged the will. We won in the end. It was worth it because now I (and my siblings) are set financially. They often express guilt that I was the one left to cope with him, but to be honest, I saw him for what he was, and he was a tormented character.

If coping with him for two more years is possible, just do it and set up your future. Your dear Mom does not need to overhear your conversations with him, nor should she have to hear what you endure, it is your choice. Just make sure you are good to her in her grief. Your emotional support will help her heal. She will recover and be a good friend in the years to come. I wish I’d had that chance with my Mom.