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The Futility in Confronting Affair Partners

Here’s a common chump mistake — confronting the affair partner(s). Maybe you did this. Maybe you agonized about doing this. Maybe you’re still waiting to come up with the perfect withering remark to deliver along with your poisoned umbrella tip. Let me spare you the trouble — don’t go there.

But! But! 

I know you want to tell them off, but it’s futile for a variety of reasons.

1. They have no shame. Unless this person is completely unaware that your spouse is married or otherwise spoken for (it happens, in which case I think the person is a fellow chump, not an AP), they knew what they were doing and have devised various rationales — all of which are impervious to your exhortations. The most common rationale is that you are sexless and bat shit crazy. You come at them all “stay away from my husband, you whore!” — you’re going to validate their assumptions. You’re nuts.

Worse, if you come at them all classy — appealing to their sense of shared humanity and common decency — they will delight in their superiority. You poor pathetic chump, begging for your marriage. Can’t you see you’re dealing with an uber being? One more charismatic and sexier than you? How could one as dim and sexless as you understand someone as compelling as them? You cannot. This is bigger than us both. Our love cannot be denied. You are too feeble-minded to comprehend such love…

Which brings us to the other reason you should not confront the affair partner…

2. They might actually be bat shit crazy. Some irony there, huh? Look, to exist in an affair for any length of time, you have to be a few sandwiches shy of picnic. Either, you’ve got really low self-esteem to be a side dish, or you’re flamingly narcissistic. In the first case, desperate people can do desperate things. And in the other case, narcissistic people don’t think the rules apply to them — and that doesn’t stop at poaching your spouse. It might also extend to the rules of law.

Being in an affair has been likened to addiction — and you’re trying to sober them up. Have you watched those recovery programs? People get ugly. Very ugly. Haven’t you suffered enough? Do you really need this person harassing you and losing their shit? No. You do not need that.

But the biggest reason not to confront the affair partner?

3. It’s kibbles to your cheater. Confronting the affair partner is the essence of the pick me dance. “Stay away from my wife!” makes your wife really central. She’s getting a high off two people fighting for her. How fabulous. Maybe there’ll be a duel!

If cheater’s can’t have secret cake, they will settle for a public pick me dance. It’s all good. It’s all kibbles. Don’t participate in this shit!

You might delude yourself into thinking you need to talk with the affair partner for reconnaissance purposes. To compare notes. Maybe that person will tell you things your partner will not.

They might. And it might be a pack of lies! Consider the source. There might also be some truth in it — but how fucked up is that? Would you really consider staying with a person who won’t tell you the truth — you have to get the details from their fuckbuddy? Really?

If you’ve been tempted to confront the affair partner — leave it to professionals. Consider having your lawyer write a no contact letter, as the first step to formal harassment charges. Or perhaps your lawyer can depose them in your upcoming divorce? (I’ve heard that gets settlement talks moving). If you need more information about the affair(s), hire a PI or become  a computer snoop. Hand over the evidence to your lawyer. Don’t go all vigilante on this alone. Get professional support.

Stop giving your cheater and the affair partner your precious mental energy. You know what says “you are beneath contempt”? Filing for divorce. Let the cheaters have each other. You’ve got better things to do than orbit Planet Narcissist in some intergalactic fact-finding mission.

Gaining a life means you get your dignity and self-respect. And the cheaters get crabs. Or a fleeting Sense of Aliveness, or whatever that Esther Perel bullshit is.

Anyway, confronting fuckbuddies? No.

Pointing and laughing? Sure. Go right ahead.

***

Chump Lady is under the weather today. 🙁 Updated a past column. 

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  • Hope you are better soon! Take care.

    PS: confronting an AP, especially a Jesus-cheater one in my case, would be my ultimate humiliation. No way! I don’t even feel the need to imagine myself doing anything to an insignificant grease spot.

    Would I do imagine is snarking the ex if the occasion arises. God forbid!

      • If I “confronted” them today, it would be to shake their hand for taking a total dead weight off my hands…. except her fuckbuddy seems to be infinitely worse than she is, so I’ll just settle for a satisfied feeling of schandefreud instead

        • My jellyfish (we call him that because jellyfish have no heart). Actually brought her to my house. Ya I knew what he wanted. “Look 2 girls fighting over me”. Ya no. It’s 30 mins of hilariousisness that we play at wine parties. I told her you have my blessing ride off to the sunset with your knight in shining tinfoil. During wreckonciliation he requested to listen he said “ you act like you didn’t want to fight for me “. No shit Sherlock this classy broad does not like ho on her hands. This “widow” who was calling my husband TWO DAYS AFTER PUTTING HER HUSBAND IN THE GROUND. he wanted to delete it. Oh noooooo it’s hilarious.

          • Oh my god, so this widow thing actually happens!?

            Because I found some sexual texts, I love yous, and heart emojis between my husband and a woman – his friend’s widow. The guy just passed away in May. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. Really fucked up. He told me they are just friends.

    • I too had a Jesus cheater…. it was the worst… she has justified that God forgives all and God had this in His plans and she is saved by grace…. and blah blah blah….
      I found out while I was 8 months pregnant….I finally kicked him out soon after our baby was born. They had a fight and I answered my cell phone and it was her..looking back… I should have hung up immediately. But like a bad car wreck or juicy gossip… I hung on for 2 hours comparing notes …. finding out details of the affair. I thought it was the beginning of the movie “the other Woman” except this Homewrecker was no Cameron Diaz. They got back together not even a week later.
      My son just turned two…. and she has texted me and called me several times….. I blocked her about a year ago … they break up and get back together all the time… it’s insane and I’m free!
      Wish I read this years ago!!!

      • Magneto recipe: two teabags per cup. Don’t know why, but the extra strong does wonders for stomach. I’m immune to caffeine, but may keep you mere mortals awake…

        • Add a good dollop of whisky, lemon juice, 3 cloves and a teaspoon of honey to that strong tea. 😉
          Pamper yourselves Tracy and Mr Chumplady.

      • There is something going around. Take care of yourself. My friend ended up passed out in a minute clinic and then had to go the emergency room. She’s fine, but just be careful.

      • So glad you picked up some good British habits like cups of tea in your London and South Africa jaunts Chump Lady!

        Tea makes the world go around, in my opinion.

  • D- day was horrible enough knowing he was doing this to me with multiple women for over 20 years. I opened his phone and discovered his ho worker. After he left for work after confronting him about texting a ho worker and meeting up with her in his brand new 2017 Mustang with limo tint in the Winn Dixie parking lot, how romantic! He called me and wanted to know what I would do. I froze instead of fight or flight. I am so glad I did that because wanted to embarrass the both of them so badly. It would have been major kibbles for them both, still 6 months later and they are soaking up all the kibbles their coworkers give them. As for me, I sit back with minimal contact like I am so glad she won that sparkly turd prize. My life is so much better without him in it, that’s my reward! Best decision I ever made next to filing for divorce in 5 days!

    • “I am so glad she won that sparkly turd prize. My life is so much better without him in it, that’s my reward! Best decision I ever made next to filing for divorce in 5 days!”
      ~ sweetChumpgirl, your MIGHTY jumped off the page at me! Monday morning win: filing in 5 days! Took me 5 months before hardcore NC steeled me. Thanks for sharing your wisdom & experience.

      CL, I hope you feel better soon. Thank you so much for yoir support – you have saved my life! And CN, you are my TRIBE! LOVE you all! Have a great week.
      I finally filed! Woot!

      • Congrats to you for finding your mighty! And, yes, CN has been my squad throughout this ordeal! Thank you CL.

        • Thank you Never and MotherChumper.You never know what you can handle until it’s done to you. The beast inside of me awakened. This divorce stuff is a piece of cake compared to the marriage.

  • CL, I do hope you feel better soon, as well as Mr. CL.

    I will never stop thanking you for this website!! It is a lighthouse in a very dark storm.

  • My cheater got a blow job at a massage parlor and spent his time, money, and sexual energy jacking off to porn and in chat rooms and live cam-to-cam sessions. There is really no one to ‘confront’ because apart from the massage parlor person, there were no real life people. They were made up personas of sex worker actresses playing a part for ‘coins’.

    The only thing I could possible confront the massage parlor worker with is a helpline number for victims of trafficking. Because, there is no way some woman is willingly sitting around in a shady ‘massage’ parlor thankful to be performing hand jobs, blow jobs, and whatever else is requested from any Tom, Dick, or Harry that walks in the door.

    I don’t doubt even some of the webcam girls were trafficked and forced against their will. I am sure there was a portion of them working of their own free will, but not 100% of them.

    I still haven’t figured out if I am ‘lucky’ that there was no actual ‘affair partner’, since most of his antics were solo and fantasy based, or if I am worse off because the creep chose porn and a sex worker to get off on rather than real, fully consent giving people.

    • It makes no difference. To the cheater, they are all holograms. They never see the real people, or else they would have seen us. They’re playing out a fantasy.
      They’re predators. Prey is an object, not a person.
      I always had the feeling I could be anyone, so APs too, could have been anyone.

      • “I always had the feeling I could be anyone, so APs too, could have been anyone.”

        Yep, my STBX actually said to me, “if it wasn’t her it would have been someone else”

        They don’t see people, they only see objects for their gratification.

        • Same Got a brain, STBX said that “she was #5 and they were all just for sex so if this wouldn’t have stuck, there would have been 6 then 7 then 8…” Now he says that his statement about the others was just to hurt me and she was the first and only but I call bullshit. If she believes that, I have some oceanfront property in Oklahoma that she might be interested in: I am trying to unload it to pay my lawyer until I get a settlement.

        • I’m afraid of what’s going to happen once the Porn Industry has perfected robotic sex workers. Can you not shudder at what is going to happen to those poor machines???

          • Did you see the news report of the sex robot that was abused at a demonstration? That’s all these fuckwits need to further dehumanize the most intimate act that’s supposed to be about connection, not objectification. Ugh.

    • THIS by 1,000!
      The creep chose porn and a sex workers to get off on rather than real, live loving person and there is no one to truly ‘confront’ in the instance of porn/hooker/random strangers scenarios…………………….”any hole is the goal” for these low life scumbags.
      And even though the other women are nameless, faceless beings, it doesn’t make the situation any easier-It all sucks & is devastating.

    • I have no anger for the sex workers. Purely transactional, assuming they were adults.

      I am not a fan of sex trafficking in any way. These women and men are performing for cash. Maybe it’s to fund their education, pay off debts, feed kids or feed an addiction. I do like your idea of providing them a hotline number if a chump chooses to confront a sex worker.

      What I highlighted to asshat is the fact that EACH transaction is decided theft against his own kids. Money taken from their mouthes, from their backs and from their enrichment. Dissipated Marital Assets.

    • Another porn chump here… it’s a weird kind of betrayal made possible by technology. I go back to context and consent: if he had asked me if I was okay with him orgasming remotely with actresses, I would have said no. My understanding of “forsaking all others” does not include those kind of sexual experiences outside the marriage.

      “It’s not like I cheated on you.”

      Any insistence or entitlement regarding those activities would have been a deal breaker before the marriage; our 20 years and three children together make me less lenient, not more.

      • Amen, That is Not a Thing! EXACTLY what you said.
        I’m 30 years in, 26 removed from Ddays1 &2, when I was young, naive and optimistic for change. I think he thought he could just psychobabble me back into his good graces again. Think again, f*wit!
        Mine did drugs & alcohol (1st 3 years, but I did, too), then (at least 2) OW, then – later – rage & sulking, after DD called him out on the rage he stopped acting it OUT, then went back to porn. After being caught by young DD, he stuffed the porn, then: MOW#3 (but it was *just* an EA – she was “just a friend”). UGH! Puke.
        Porn redirects sexual energies outside of the couple & objectifies, it removes intimacy for performance. It’s ENTERTAINMENT & FANTASY that misinforms and does huge damage.
        No such thing as “just porn.”
        TINAT, you know that you have more to gain than lose after all this time. You are mighty!

        • Thanks, meh… I haven’t left yet. Without evidence of an OW, I’m not sure what to do. I’ve gotten a lot of advice here of “of course there’s more!” but no true Dday. I am getting my financial ducks in a row, researching CA divorce law, enjoying the last months of having all my 3 teens under one roof. I appreciate your support regarding porn. I just hate it so much, the thought of it, wondering what he’s comparing me to. So prevalent and largely tolerated in our culture; it’s easy for him to say I’m overreacting.

  • I confronted the AP: asked her if they were having protected sex because me and cheaterpants were still having sex….. she didn’t believe that. He calmly admitted to it while the three of us were on speakerphone. She proceeded to tell me that my marriage was shit before she ever slept with cheaterpants and that he deserved better than me. Apparently she nominated herself. The justifications for her behavior were unreal just as his were. So, yes, they deserve each other. Cheaterpants and Chubby McBumble Homeslice get to live “happily ever after” with his pill and alcohol addictions. Sounds heavenly….
    Some people love being a rescuer and being rescued…..they really do deserve each other. We seek relationships at our own same level of health…. no way in hell would I be with that again. Anger-Blame-Self Loathing… repeat.
    Fellow Chumps…. consider it a huge gift to be free of a turdsausage.

    • I had the pleasure of hearing OW tell me about how awful my marriage was and that she couldn’t believe that I didn’t know that, I had to have known that. (The bigger question is how would you know that, OW? We’re you in my marriage? Oh, right, you were.)

      In the same conversation she also told me that ex-douchcanoe and I never had sex and also that I treated him like a breedmare and that made him sad. (Aren’t breedmare’s the female horse?) We had one child. If he was a breedmare he was bad at it. Not sure I can simultaneously have no sex and also use him for sex, and I told her that but she didn’t seem to ever think through the logic of that one.

      • I am not an equine expert, but I think she meant you treated him like a stallion. Not sure many men would take issue with that!

        For what it’s worth, he deserves to be a gelding. 😉

    • I sent the AP a package of gorilla poop (there’s a website for that.) I reasoned that was the least worst thing I fantasized about doing to her. As for my husband, I fantasized about going to his place of employment and punching him in the face in front of everyone. Instead I wreckonciled. I should have punched him, it would have been more than worth a couple of nights in jail. He’s a public defender and his schmoopie was a divorce attorney getting divorced from a divorce attorney in a smallish town. It would have been satisfying to expose his “authentic self” to the judge, all his coworkers, and the local sheriffs. 3 yrs of wreckonciliation later and I caught him again, this time with a new victim.

      I regret sending that poop, if only because it signaled to her that I gave a shit.

      I regret even more not punching him in the face publicly, but I was afraid it would affect my custody rights.

      C’est la vie. I am 49 now and I have 2 wonderful kids, a post nup that protected all my assets, and the rest of my life to enjoy not being enslaved in a humiliating pick-me-dance. The best revenge is living well.

      • You quite literally ‘gave a shit’. That’s really something, wow! But don’t regret it – you ‘gave a shit’ back then – you no longer give a shit anymore 🙂

      • Gorilla Poop, Punching him in the face and the consequences and fallout in the criminal proceedings would be GREAT with the court staff finding out etc.- but as a criminal defense attorney I am really GLAD that you did NOT punch him. As much as I hated the OW in my marriage I kept reminding myself that I would get revenge-but I would NEVER do anything that would land my ass in jail. Nope! Filing your divorce in the particular county though would have been good, did you do that? You could pursued dissipation of marital assets so all of that would have come out? Did you do that?

      • Literally giving a shit was what we signed up for on our wedding days, right? So giving her a shit is just consistent with your vows. And meh is ceasing to give a shit.

        I understand your regret, but please allow me a moment of enjoyment imagining AP opening it.

  • More than once I was tempted to confront the
    wife’s AP. I realized that it wouldn’t be worth it because
    it would be nothing but denial and the same lies my wife spewed at me.
    I’m sure they are still at it 11 months after D day, they just had to up their game after I put a wrench in gears of deceit.
    News for the wife though, I filed Nov 1, she should be getting served in a day or two. Can’t wait to see her face…..fuck’em both!

      • Hope you feel better soon, CL.

        I read their texts. They said, to each other, “We didn’t mean for this to happen. You didn’t and I didn’t. It just happened.” I would love to ask howorker what she meant by that, but I won’t. I am guessing it’s just their way of justifying that destroying a family is okay. Your know …because they didn’t MEAN to.

    • Congrats on filing. Brace yourself, as it usually gets worse before it gets better. You’ve got Chump Nation behind you.

    • 50 chump,
      Congrats on filing! Your mighty is growing! I’m just at 5 mos post Dday3, but I filed last Friday, awaiting reaction to service this week. Don’t know what to expect, as I caught him researching untraceable poison 10 days ago (his old desktop records his phone browsing). Had all the locks changed, made a police report, notified attorney, therapist, my team. Thank you all for being my anchor to sanity when my grief wanted me to go batshit myself…CL & CN are the only reasons I’m not choking on RIC shitsandwiches today. Long live CL! Get well, CL & Mr CL.

      • Glad to hear you changed the locks. Please check in with friends regularly. I am 2 years out and I still have a friend who reaches out every day.

      • I hope you also notified him that you know what he was researching and that you have notified the authorities and your attorney. Be very clear to him that if anything happens to you, even if you appear to catch an infection, fall very ill and/or die, he will be the prime suspect. The only natural death for you will come when you are 100 as far as your attorney is concerned.
        I did that with the Traitor, I called it my life insurance.

        • Thanks, KiwiChump – I didn’t do that. And now that he’s been served (I think), and there is a stay-away order is part of my petition, I cannot contact him myself. I can have attorney tell him or just…tell his family what I found. The officer I made police report to wondered whether i shouldn’t just ask him why he was researching. I thought that was a ludicrous idea. But what you said makes sense. I’ll talk to my attorney tomorrow.

          The night I found it, I emailed my “team” (attorney, therapist, a couple of friends who are DV-experienced and my brother), told them that I was the healthiest I’ve been in years (truth), that if anything happened to me to be sure to do an autopsy.
          Apparently my attorney said something along the lines of “Oh, hell, no! No autopsy on my watch! Shut that down!” God, I do love her!

          Thanks, CN – your wisdom is more precious than gold to me right now.

          • Congrats on filing Meh-ca!
            I hope for great things ahead for you, me, and all the others in CN who have to travel down this road to “Gain a Life”.

            Stay safe sister, keep your head in a swivel.

    • Congrats 50 chump.
      You never know how they will react.
      I saw my stbx at my sons football game a couple hours after he was served. He ran off the field (he was coaching) and bear hugged me, said nothing, ran back out. Never one to pass up a chance at mindfuckery.
      He said at some point later he didn’t think I was actually filing- tho my attorney told his attorney and asked if he wanted to receive service via his attorney. Crickets from both so we served him. He said he never read those emails cuz it was just my attorney making blustery threats. That’s from the lens of a person who does not tell the truth. They don’t recognize simple factual statements by others.

  • I confronted the OP in the days before CL existed…it didnt go well, as you could imagine. She told my then-husband that she didnt understand me because I used big, complicated words (she speaks english as a second language to her primary mandarin, but she graduated from the U of Washington where I assume she used english).

    If I had said/done one tenth of the things I fantasized about at that time, Im sure the cheater would have done the “see, she is batshit crazy” pointing and protected his damsel from my terribleness…its really best that none of those things ever played out.

    I live in DC and she lives in Seattle, so we are unlikely to ever bump into each other, but I forever keep my eyes peeled in airports thinking I will see her and say “Oh yes, I remember you, you fucked my dead husband” but in reality, I likely wouldnt ever do it.

  • It would all be so pointless to confront. My cheater wife went from blaming her AP, to blaming her fellow female school counselor and adultery coach/cheerleader, to finally blaming herself and saying that she used the massage boy AP to make herself feel good. I’m sure she hooked him with her lies of “we lived separate lives”, “we don’t have sex”, “he doesn’t care what I do”. She is a sick selfish self-centered bizarre woman. I just want to be done with her and rid my life of the abuse.

        • I tried collaborative divorce for a few years & finally had to go with an adultery charge (only other option in my state) because XH would not come to meetings or provide financial information needed. Cheaters often don’t really want to get divorced as it makes it hard to have their cake and eat it too. I paid out a lot of money to collaborative attorney, divorce coach, and financial mediator who all finally realized XH was never coming to the bargaining table. Narcissists prefer high conflict divorces, I think. Good luck.

    • You deserve better, Zell. Boot her butt!
      I feel like my life is just beginning – and after 30 years of marriage (more than half my life) – that’s saying a lot. I’ve been NC (except for kid transfers) for about 3 weeks, filed last week, and am beginning to see the light that has been inside me all along- he just smothered it with a moldy old blanket. I know it can be dangerous in the time before divorce is final (per cop I made report to last week), but I am starting to feel my own mighty.
      If you’re not there, yet, you can start to feel better immediately by taking just that first step – whatever it is. Hang in there, man, it gets better! And – it IS abuse! No question.

  • In my case, the secret affair partner contacted me (many, many times).

    1. She created a fake Facebook account and (without me “friending” her) she messaged me dozens and dozens of extremely graphic and pornographic “screen shots” of text messages with my husband on CHRISTMAS MORNING when my husband and my 3 young children and I were celebrating with a gender reveal of our unborn child. She told my husband what she did and he tried to delete the messages, but lied to her and said I received the messages and was so angry I threw dishes at him, which wasn’t true and I didn’t even know about the affair yet. (She did get ahold of me a week after Christmas, and ultimately I did receive the Christmas morning messages).

    2. When I promptly filed for divorce, she named herself as a witness to the at-fault case. She called our Gaurdian-Ad-Litem at 9:00 at night on her cell phone under the guise of discussing a high-conflict custody case they were working on together (OW is a divorce attorney 15 years older than us). She tried to sway the opinion of the Gaurdian -Ad-Litem to be more favorable to my ex-husband.

    3. During the process of divorcing and my 3rd trimester of pregnancy, OW contacted me many, many times. Once, she said “I just heard about your earlier miscarriage. Like I give a sh*t, LOL”. The cruelty she showed is mind-boggling.

    4. After the divorce was finalized, I discovered my ex-husband had secretly hidden a high tec GPS that connected my car to his cell phone. He was stalking me during my post-partum period. He wasn’t meant to have access to me, but it is impossible to avoid someone who can track your every move. My life was a living hell. Later, when we went to Court to seek relief from the abuse, OW attended and sat in the Court Room glaring at me. (It was the first time I ever saw her).

    5. The Gaurdian-Ad Litem assigned to our case asked OW to stop contacting me, and she agreed she would. OW has called me 2x times since. I never answer and she has been blocked, but I still live in fear of what is next.

    • Wow that’s some next level crazy shit. I hope they get what is coming and you find the peace and happiness you deserve.

    • X’s AP is also a divorce attorney, she’s a narcissist, a triathlete, who enters at least one competition a month. X thought he’d found the perfect woman, “they had so much in common.” Apparently more in common than our 20 year marriage. When I married X he was well aware that I would never be entering a triathlon.
      They eventually began entering triathlons together. I’d hear about how happy he was and how proud he was of all her accomplishments, attorney, professor, worked out constantly. I don’t know where her there kids fit into her busy schedule.
      She and X definitely have narcissism in common and are too self centered to care how I feel, so I didn’t waste my time. It would only give X more leverage to his claim I was crazy.
      Apparently her success and them having so much in common wasn’t enough to maintain their relationship.

      • I don’t think these people are capable of maintaining a real relationship. My therapist told me that my cheater wife would likely marry again (and quickly- she’s BPD) but would likely cheat on him as well. You can’t fix these people.

        • This is truth. They will marry again. The facade will be beautiful and you of course are the Meany.

          Toast to the happy couple and many years of Karma! These people don’t change. Their coping skills suck so when shit becomes problematic, they default to lying cheating stealing. Same flavor, different toppings.

      • The whore/OW picked up running to land my now XH – just like she developed an enjoyment of Capoiera when she got her married man. He left me a few weeks after I had knee surgery (ligament problem) that has plagued me since my early teens. I was never able to run.

        XH and OW would run 1/2 and full marathons together almost every month in the early days. I don’t think she runs any more. Probably because the pick-me-dance is over and they’ve been married for a few years. His running seems to have decreased as well. Hopefully, his joints are giving out.

        Once I got my knee fixed, I trained for and completed a half marathon almost 2 years to the day that I had surgery. I hate running and will never do it again, but it felt awesome crossing the finish line.

      • Oh yeah in the beginning I heard all about how they were SOUL MATES, TWIN FLAMES blah blah blah. They told everybody including the kids.

        NOT enough to sustain the relationship apparently. That flame blew out forever this last week. She is posting all over social media apparently that she’s been hard done by and DOUCHEBAG and he is just another loser.

        Ummm that’s why I sent you that essay Peachtitties that You ignored the week after I kicked him out, as a community service announcement.
        Awww poor sad sausage. Dog turd not so tasty when you have it full time. Karma bus has arrived and i’m Enjoying the show. It’s a comedy and highly entertaining 🤣🤣🤣

    • Yes— her state bar regulates attorney conduct and would take your complaint against her. Also consider getting an order of protection.

        • Thanks for the support y’all. 🤗

          In my personal experience, justice and relief from abuse (such as stalking, etc.) has been nearly impossible to obtain and at a very steep price: emotionally, financially, and even physically.

          So far, I have been reluctant to contact my State’s Supreme Court (they handle the Bar complaints), as I am looking to distance myself from these people as much as possible (gray rock), and I am afraid that further litigation would be expensive, emotionally exhausting, and provide further opportunities for these individuals to bully and harass me.

          Thank heavens for CL and CN!!!!

          • You are in the best position to evaluate your circumstances and options. But, I hope you are documenting everything so if you later decide that pursuing legal support to shut these people is your only option, you’ll be well positioned to show how badly you need it.

    • Stalked…oh my gosh. Christmas morning with your kids, revealing their future little brother or sister to them…all of the joy and warmth of what a family should be…and yet slithering into the moment and into all of your lives is this. It is pure evil. I cannot believe how shattering this period must have been or still is. What a jarring unreal jolt from what you believed you were living to this sickening reality. And all while you were pregnant, and all while being tormented by the mentally disturbed co-author of this vileness. I know we all have our stories, but somehow this especially hits me. You are the saving grace in your children’s lives – I wish you the best and will pray for you.

      • And knowing your spouse that should have your back, your kids back, brought this kind of crazy into your life. Really unfreaking believable. It’s so sinister. So vile. I am glad you are rid of these low lifes.

      • Stalked, I echo all the above. I think a lot of us here feel bad about ‘our’ stories. Then when I read the cruelty of what the OW did in your marriage on Christmas Morning with your planned gender reveal with your kids? Oh my god. There are no words. I am so sorry. Wishing you all the best and your children. I don’t know if you are religious but…I think God will punish her somehow. Yah, I am certain of this.

          • You have plenty of proof to show the Bar. I’d at least file the complaint. At worst, you move far away from them both, but at least it becomes a known issue with the Bar and she will do something else stupid (count on it… they don’t change). The more complaints filed against her the more the Bar cannot ignore.

          • You might want to talk to your Guardian Ad-Litem about it – s/he will probably know more about the specific state’s Bar Rules. But yeah, have it on file – if nothing else, it lets her know that her acts are being recorded so she needs to cut it out.

    • Stalked –
      what a horrific Dday nightmare you lived! I’ve waited all day to respond to you. You certainly have a wide MIGHTY streak – the hormones alone would have me sitting on death row, probably. She did SO many traceable, criminal things: sending pornographic messages is illegal in many places, contacting your GAL & interfering is WAY beyond the pale – she abused her position as an officer of the court, at the very least. But the personal attacks and borderline psychotic pushing her way into your holiday/reveal moments – she was seriously threatened by that. I wouldn’t be surprised if she has serious mental illness. Your instinct to cut ties & run was very sound, IMO (I’m a therapist with some legal/forensic experience, too). The counsel to document all of it is also sound, even if you never use it.

      You have my deep sympathy for the shitshow that surrounded your sweet child’s birth. I’m trusting you & your children are infinitely better off without THAT sparkly turd. HUGS to you and them – they are indeed fortunate to have one sane, present parent!

      • Longing, thank you so much for your thoughtful advice and support. It has been enlightening to hear the thoughts of people not directly involved in the case. At the minimum, my faith in humanity is somewhat restored that the behavior and actions of my abusers is not considered the norm. Thank you again so very much.

  • I confronted ex’s affair partner, because she was a close family friend. I got them both in a room and tore a strip off them. Schmoopie stared at her feet the whole time. When I finished, I got very quiet and just let uncomfortable silence fill the room. Finally Schmoopie stammered, “I don’t know what to say. I never intended to hurt you.”

    My response: “You were FUCKING my husband. Did you think I’d be happy????”

    Yep…. clearly nothing to work with there. Looking back, I’m pretty sure there were times she and ex were together while I took care of all of our kids. That is some special kind of fucked up entitlement. You can’t reason with people who would knowingly blow up two families like that. As CL has said, It’s not that they don’t see…. it’s that they disagree. Their twu wuv will always trump all others’ needs.

    • ” I never intended to hurt you.”

      They ALL say that. It’s spin that they use to make themselves feel better about what they did. My cheater wife has said this so may times over the past 5 months. Blah!

      • It’s probably sort of true though, Zell. Most cheaters appear to lack empathy. They can’t fathom how their actions affect others. So the destruction they cause… Doesn’t. Even. Register.

          • Doing a bad thing once, and immediately feeling remorseful and taking responsibility for making it right again? Not a bad person.

            Doing a bad thing over and over again, hiding it and never feeling remorse? Yes, bad person.

          • @Zell’s ex: Hell yeah it does!

            A single drunken one night stand could possibly be considered a singular bad thing – a mistake, if you will. If the cheater is completely remorseful and does whatever he/she can to make it right. But that is rare.

            An on-going affair is more than a single mistake – it’s a decision to deceive over and over again. That’s the essence of shitty character, which makes her a bad person. Add in the blame-shifting, and you have an irresponsible, immature, selfish, delusional bad person. Trust me, it doesn’t get better. They just get sneakier and continue to blame their bad behavior on everyone but themselves.

            Cut and run, Zell. Cut and run.

    • This is very much my situation as well. I contacted her husband, (we all used to vacation together), and she blocked me on everything. She then ran to my in-laws and they took her side, saying that my reaction to the situation (telling her husband and refusing to have any further contact with her) was immature.

      I think I was supposed to accept with grace that “these things happen” and continue to eat shit sandwiches while hiding, rug-sweeping and soldiering on.

      Oops.

      • NotToday
        Some parents will cosign ANY bullshit their kids bring home – either they condone/support the behavior & have no character themselves, or they live in fear that sparkly turd will cut them off. UGH. Rid of them all. SO sorry you went through that.

    • I’m Schmoopie’s ex, my favorite is I moved out for 3 months, Dee’s ex and I were volunteer firefighters (I say were because I quit, after DDay), I have not talked to him about anything before this. So, I went to a fire call because they forgot to remove my name from the list, knowing he would likely be there. Oh well, I go to the fire and help, or I go to work and feel guilt. I go to the fire, Dee’s ex walks up to me twice, I walk away, so now third time he approaches me, he asks me what I know about the fire. I say, “apparently the house was sold, so now this fire makes it suck for two families”, albeit that was the truth and a thinly veiled dig at what what the adulterers did. Dee phones me later, telling me how her ex states “LaughingSquirrel talked to me today”, like all was fine with the world.

      All I can say is “the well doesn’t run that deep”, a saying I think of anytime I recall this situation.

      Divorce is settled, I have a new place, my girls are settled (enough), Dee and I are still friends, I’m trying to work on a new relationship, onward and upward.

      • Oh, the cringe-worthy stories Laughing Squirrel and I could tell about our exes…. especially since we all lived in the same small town together. (And believe me, the entire town cringes with us.)

        I will say this: when you get a certain distance away from the shit show, you do start to see the comedy in how the brains of cheaters work.

        Many would advise against reaching out to the AP’s spouse, but it has worked out for LS and me, as we knew each other already. Our exes STILL lie to us about things concerning our kids, and so we still compare stories. It helps us to figure out what the hell is going on with our children on a day-to-day basis. Both LS and I have a buffet of shit sandwiches to eat before we are done parallel-parenting with the fuckwits, but it’s good to find something to laugh about while we dine together. Cheers to better days ahead!

      • We cared for each other’s kids. Stayed in hotels together. Helped each other with home repairs. Gave each other rides to hockey. Worked out together. Volunteered together. It’s creepy to think that cheaters can look both their spouses and their “friends” in the eye and continue to interact like all is totally normal. That’s a whole new level of character dysfunction. I think you’re right. They get a buzz off it. It’s sickening.

  • As is commonly recommended by the RIC, I sent the AP of my cheater (the AP I knew about) a brief email one evening respectfully asking that he refrain from contacting my wife so that we could have room to heal our marriage and save our family. The next morning, my STBXW breathlessly brought me her laptop to show me the email in which he—with the grammar you’d expect from a work-at-home IT “professional,” and seventh-grade cliches—proposed marriage.

    At that moment, I’m pretty sure my STBXW was legally and chemically intoxicated with kibbles.

    So, yeah, not the outcome I sought.

    Might as well confront your cat about torturing mice: No shame to be had there.

      • That’s me right now. Twisties and some dark chocolate with s bottle of Bunderberg ginger beer 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    • My chump friend visited the AP in person since they were friends to make this same request and immediately following was served a restraining order.

  • During wreckconciliation I did this…not once but twice. Both emails were dripping with sarcasm that I shared with those who knew about the affair. Oh how it made them laugh…..at me behind my back I’m sure. What a load of kibbles that gave the ex. I cc’d him on both emails too so he knew he was center stage. He had two women fighting over him, the pinnacle of his existence.

    There was a brief response to the first email which of course was as satisfying as the shit sandwiches I ate as part of the regular pick-me dance diet. There were crickets for the second one. I was not the boss of either narc and it would have served me better to spend that energy crafting a divorce with the best lawyer in town.

    Fortunately that is all behind me since I’ve been divorced almost 4 years now. Don’t waste your time newbies. There are several things that you’ll feel more repugnant about than this monumental waste of your time. There are definitely thousands of things that will be more satisfying.

    Get well soon CL!

    • Try being the Chump Husband. She cheats and it is my fault. I talk about divorce and all she talks about is how much alimony she will get. The best is we have saved for our kids education and she came right out and said she can’t wait to get her half to move on, and I will have to figure out how to pay kids college and I can tell them we can’t afford it if I can’t. This lovely state of Connecticut is a no fault state so the cheaters gets half of everything, can’t even get the $10,000 she gave her lover to buy his new house.

      • Come on over to the chump forums chump husband. There are topics that relate to our male chumps plus we have a few that are more than happy to answer your questions.

        • Indeed. The dress code is rather informal as well.

          Key points – get everything you can think of documented and get a lawyer.

          BT

      • Research 529 Education Accounts ASAP. You can prefund the education with a $70,000 one time contribution. Once in the 529, it can only be withdrawn for education for beneficiary. You can usually do this without the signature of the other parent.

      • You absolutely should be able to recoup any money spent on affair partners (including that $10K)–find the paper trail.

        • Absolutely, even in no fault, if you can prove that the monies were taken for an affair, you should be able to recoup at least some of it. It would be great if you have her statement about college expenses in an email, judges hate that shit. Also, my state doesn’t recognize child expenses after 18. Get college expenses written into the divorce decree. Be very specific. Also, who has the right to claim the children on taxes. My jackass, claimed both my kids, who lived with me, without telling me during the divorce. My return came back.

          Hugs to all you make chumps fighting for your kids. Keep being mighty!

          • Second the idea about writing into the decree who gets to claim kids on the taxes. You can also make arrangements to maximize deductions & share them. For example, my X pays for DD#1’s out of state tuition, but he makes too much money to claim educational deductions. Thus, I claim DD#1 (and in principle, could share any return with him, but he didn’t think to ask for it ; ).

            Some states won’t put anything about over-18 children in the decree itself, but who pays for tuition can be instituted in an Agreement Incident to Divorce.

  • Hear, hear. There is little to gain and much to lose from talking to the AP.

    During my 6 month pick-me dance OW would text me and beg for reassurance that she was not a bad person, and that the lies that my ex had told her were true. In the beginning I was truthful: “No, you are a bad person, you knew he was married with children and still you fucked him for four years.” “No, he never moved out of our bedroom, in fact he still sleeps in our bed.” Then she would contact my ex and tell him what I said, and then he would explode and threaten me. I soon learned to consult with the ex before responding to her messages.

    After I had moved out the OW texted me again, saying she was glad I had finally accepted the reality of their love, but demanding an apology from me for wasting her precious youth by not giving the ex the divorce (that he never asked for and begged me not to go through with). Before I had time to answer her the ex called me and demanded I not expose anymore of his lies, or else! I told him that since it was no longer convenient to have him edit my texts, I couldn’t guarantee that unless I knew exactly what he’d lied to her about. I was being sarcastic, but he answered that he didn’t have time right now, but he would send me a list “before his work day was over”. Incredulous, I said it would be simpler if he just wrote the message to her himself, and he thought that was a perfect solution. Wanting to see how far he would go I suggested it would be even simpler if he just gave her some new, fake contact info for me and told her I stopped using WhatsApp! He was so very grateful for my understanding and cooperation.

    That was more than two years ago, and I haven’t heard from her since. If she ever manages to get a visa to our country so that we’ll eventually have to meet, he’s going to be in so much trouble. I have a good life now and I don’t want to get dragged into their drama, but since I don’t know what “I” have been telling her there is no way I can cover for him.

  • The woman my husband swears there was no affair with – after texting him for some work she wanted him to do and me answering the text with ” He will no longer be able to do anymore work for you” started our first texting discussion. Of course she realized it was me after she asked if she had offended him in anyway. I told her ..” Actually this is his wife”….She then went on to explain how professional their relationship had been and went into great detail over how their work day was when they worked together. It went fine until I asked her if her husband knew she had meetings with married men, alone in her home to discuss work. I had seen the email. She told me she would be Blocking the phone as soon as she got home and that her husband was aware of our conversation. She kept rambling and I texted nothing back until she told me she would be praying for me and she wouldn’t want to be in my shoes.

    Funny….I never told her why I was suspecting any of this or accused her of a thing. I texted her back and told her to block the number and she may just want to pray for herself. That was it for that conversation until three months later I decided to see if the number was really blocked and it wasn’t. I hung up when her work message went on. She texted immediately that the block had run out and to stop harassing her. Let me just say that conversation didn’t go so well…lol.

    She has spent the last year putting stuff on fb every now and then that in no way could be a coincidence to try to get to me. He still swears there was no affair. I’m still here..I know..

    I have seriously thought about putting myself somewhere where I know she will be because she is such a narcissistic bitch who truly loves herself and I know she would say something to my face. I’m still trying to decide.

  • I was one of the idiots who confronted the Other Man. It only gave her the ego boost of how awesome she is.

    Looking back, it was the worst mistake I ever made. Although, I did realize that 30 years later, I still have some juice left in the tank from my college football days.

    • Did you throw punches?

      Yeah, that would have been a mistake, however, I sure as shit wished someone cared enough about me to go to bat like that.

      You’re heart was in the right place, too bad what’s-her-face was too damn selfish.

  • At least I have not made this mistake. I have not contacted her at all. I even got her cell phone number by mistake from the cell phone company trying to straighten out my bill. Ex put her on his plan and kicked me off. Oh, and he kicked me off the car insurance and I got insurance cards to my mailbox with their name one them, stating they were married.

    Anyway, I’ve never given her the time of day. The only thing I’ve given her is shade, while she tells my 9 year old during visitation with her dad that all she wants is forgiveness.

    Fuck THAT shit.

    • I did think about contacting her as well, but you’re right. She’s dumber than a box of rocks and has no sense of morality. I’d have better luck with a brick wall.

      • Sunflower 🙂

        …one of our fellow chump sisters commented, ‘…I don’t like to get ho on my hands…’ 😀 LOVE IT!

        We are some kick ass people here!!!! 🙂

        …and yeah…I don’t like to get ho stink on me either 🙂

  • I called my Cheaters affair partner after I was told it was over! I told her to NEVER contact my husband again and to work on her own marriage. She supposedly was with her husband on a trip at the time and assured me that she was reconciling with him. I was calm, but tearful. She seemed rather “flat and had no affect” in her voice. I, like the chump I am, thought maybe everything had finally sunk into Schmoopies pea brain, but I was so wrong! My husband came home later and apparently she called him immediately after my call. He was pissed at me, but obviously giddy that I had made this call. Apparently it was the subject of many laughs for these two idiots and worse yet, the affair continued! It’s a waste of time, breath and effort to speak to these fools! They couldn’t care less about the chump and it does nothing to stop the affair. Spend better time talking to your attorney. Now that gets great results and it keeps the laughter down from the affair partners!

  • I told the OW off and it felt great. Did it twice actually. Both times she ran off like a scared little kitten. Not such a big bad tough girl like she tried to present to the world after all.

  • When I still believed that my wife loved me, I read on Wreckonciliation sites that SHE had to send a message to her OM, telling him it’s over. We even discussed this in MC, and our stellar MC said this was a good idea—and that the message should be CC’ed to me, so as to be framed as “from the two of you, telling him that you are a unit and he’s the intruder on that unit.”

    I weakly embraced this logic, as it put the onus on my wife, not the OM. SHE was the one cheating on me, not him.

    Chumps, don’t forget that: the world is full of sluts who don’t respect your marriage; it’s your spouse’s responsibility to defend your marriage against such people. You only need ONE person to be faithful and honest, instead of somehow changing the values and personalities of millions of slutty others.

    (FYI, wife procrastinated sending this message for several weeks, and in that time I grew a spine and decided to get divorced, and sought legal counsel. She actually did send the email, but it was—predictably—too little, too late. She actually sent this email on a Thursday morning after coming home at 2:00 am, drunk. I told her that afternoon that I was leaving her, as I’d planned to do the night before if she’d come home at 7:00 pm like a normal adult.)

    • Yeah, my cheater refused to send that letter because he didn’t want to hurt her feelings or be “punished” for his actions, since of course it was all my fault that he strayed. He finally did write a letter but it was more like a love letter commiserating that the world was so cruel for conspiring to keep them apart. He had left a draft of it out for anyone to see.

      Uggggghghh. I hate that I took him back after that because he told me “I choose you.” It took me a year, but I did get him to sign a postnup separating all our debts and assets, just in case he strayed again.

      2 years later and His new Schmoopie told him I must be insecure to blow up a marriage just because he wants to open it up a little. She is in her 20s and lives with roommates and performs in kink exhibitions. He is 40 and can only afford to live in his parents’ basement. I hope it works out and he moves to Canada to be with her. No more co-parenting with a fuckwit and his psycho parents would be a relief

    • Mine sent the emails in front of me but then secretly wrote them back to explain he just had to lay low a while because he got caught but that it was still on. He also refused to copy me on the emails because he was afraid I would harass his APs. This was DDay1 when I was a total amateur and believed this kind of nonsense could work. Even then I had an uneasy feeling about it but it was all so surreal I didn’t really know what to think.

      • Jeez, Ohana, what a guy! Hedge those bets, right?
        Mine called her to end it – he said – no proof, nothing. I didn’t get a chance to ask for an email from “us.”
        My first (2) DDays were kind of simultaneous, Ohana. I was young, naive, totally buzzed on hopium bc the sad sausage was so sadz. Not a lot of REAL remorse, no disclosure or accountability, some minimal MC where I felt somewhat supported…was enough to elmers-glue us back together…held for 20+ years until Dday#3 this past June. “EA” with a subcontractor went on for 3 years: CHEAP perfume, lingerie, sext messages, skank CAME to my house, came on to my teenage son, flaunted in front of me, all the while I was unknowing.
        I’d rather be a chump than a cheater ANY day. I missed a lot of red flags (from both him & her, but who cares about skank? clearly could have been anyone), but I am learning where I had choices and chose poorly, when he SHOWED me who he was and i spackled and fantasized that my love would “change him/tame him” into something better. Tough pills to swallow, but they help me avoid repeating THIS mistake. I think what I started out wanting to say, Ohana, is that we have instincts & intuition that we should HEED. Every time I ignore mine, I regret it.

        • LongingForMeh-ca, trusting my instincts is probably the #1 lesson I took away from marriage with a cheater. And that is such a good thing. I wish I and all of us could have learned it in a less devastating way, but the lesson is invaluable. Never again will I ignore that sense that something is wrong. I agree with you 100%. I’m so sorry you were stuck in that situation for another 20 years. Sometimes contemplating what could have been is so painful (I mean getting out sooner). But still we rise, and a chump’s hard-won post-cheater Life rises to new heights.

  • I needed to confront the names I had, eventually, because he wasn’t fessing up and I needed to understand what had been going.

    I think it’s very telling that the one person who replied and was cooperative without hesitation, was also a chump in this situation, because he’d told her he was single, living with his sick dad (we’d been living together for years). We spoke on the phone and I had no problem believing her, because I could tell was telling the truth. She confirmed it was more than he’d said, anyway, so she was very helpful to me. She’s the reason I ultimately got out.

    The other two names refused all my attempts to reach them and blocked me. I think it’s very telling, because these two were already more shady characters, one knew he had a girlfriend at the time, the other one had a boyfriend herself, so she was probably a regular cheater.

    Honesty is character !

  • My ex had several affair partners at one time. They all came tumbling out of the closet, just before DDay.

    #1 OW was completely bat-shit crazy. She emailed me regularly, trying to bait me into a response. I never once responded to her. She knew he and I were together when she and the ex were hooking up, and she would constantly rub it in my face. I know all too well about high conflict personality disorders and there was nothing she could do or say to get me to respond.

    #2 OW didn’t know she was hooking up with someone already in a relationship. I have no ill will towards her- ex victimized her also (and her son) by having her believe they were in a real relationship.

    #3 OW starting having sex with my ex almost as soon as they met (he got her pregnant within two weeks of meeting). To this day, I don’t know if she knew we were together, and I don’t care. I never contacted her- wasn’t worth my time. I figured he probably lied to her, saying he was single and I was the “crazy ex”. (I found out much later that he told her I was calling him, “acting crazy” on the phone. It was never me- probably #1 OW. She knows he cheats on her- she gets what she deserves, as far as I’m concerned.)

    Sounds like a shitty Jerry Springer episode- so glad to be out of all of that!

  • I can honestly say, Karma always appears in life. And….it did for me. I got to sit back, point, and laugh.

    As Matthew McConaughey said in “True Detective”:

    “Time is a flat circle”

  • Ever since I read the “Surely you must know what I think of you” quote in an older CL posting, I have practiced it. I really have no idea if this young woman is a chump or was aware of his cheating but I do know that perhaps when I see her some day I MUST not engage.
    I was a chump second wife appliance and although I am ashamed now to know that most likely the first wife thought she was in a real marriage, X was very convincing that it was not a real marriage. He made sure to tell me they are very good friends still-generally the lies were not “she is crazy!!” but “she is an awesome older lady who helped me to get a green card.” Honestly, I had a problem with his way of getting a green card but I didn’t trust my gut and here I am…10 years later and I believe the new lie he tells is that I am a wonderful person but our marriage was over for many years…blah, blah. Essentially he is correct. But it hasn’t been over for a few years, but from the beginning. The relationship was predicated on lies told by him so it was doomed from the get go.
    Anyhoo, I still struggle with wanting to shout from the rooftops about all he has done because he has been a master image manager. That is truly his full time job and always has been. BUT, I know it won’t make me feel better so I practice…”surely you must know what I think of you” Exit scene.

  • Sadly, some lessons are only learned once you’ve done them 😬.

    How do you think confronting a 21 year old Ukrainian stripper, who drove half way across the country to get F*cked, in exchange for a suite at the Ritz and a Cubs game, went over?

    Do you think her sense of morality kicked in at that moment? Nope

    Do you think she begged for forgiveness? Nope

    She justified it by saying (in broken English) “well I kept asking him what about his wife”. She asked that for…. what? His permission that his wife would be okay with it? To remind him he had a wife, just in case he had forgotten?

    No, she said that because she wanted to come off as having a moral compass she didn’t actually possess. “Well if he says his wife isn’t an issue, then I guess she’s not. I don’t know her.” Strong sense of morality right there. No folks, you will not find a sliver of a sense of shared humanity in a cheater, because it is all about them. If they cared about doing the right thing, they wouldn’t be in the situation they were in.

    Also, if you are one of the thousand chumps who have been labeled controlling…. you are handing them more ammunition for their narrative!

    In opposition to Nike…. Just DON’T do it!

    • Solid points, got-a-brain. If you know that your lover/partner was/ is already in a relationship/ marriage, isn’t that enough reason to slam on the brakes? I’ve heard that dialogue before, and it’s frusturating. It’s like the AP put’s the responsibility of their decision of the affair solely on the cheater, and absolve themselves, when they actually have a big say in the matter. Not to say the cheating partner doesn’t (they definitely are responsible) but to act as if the decision is totally up to the cheater is false (if the AP knows).

      Stop. Disengage. Detach. Run.

  • When I caught the Ex with the Whore she verbally said as I walked up “ He goes down on me .. not you”. What does that tell you how low class she was?

    They both verbally abused me so my confrontation was
    not successful. Two mentally ill narc’s attacking me without an ounce of shame.

    I then realized he was an evil, cold psychopath that I must get away from. He moved into her home after I divorced him . Married 35 years..,but Karma hit.. She was killed in a car accident last month.

    He already has a new girlfriend. Tru Luv huh?

    Fuck him … 70 year old Monster! 👹

    • OMG Kathleen! What a monstor!! I’ve also been married 35 years but my husband swears no affair after two years of this crap. I’ve considered putting myself somewhere where I know she will be because she is so narcissistic that I know she’ll say something to me. Subtle hints on fb for at least a year although I am very sure it’s over now. She’s married also…

      • M…
        Don’t even bother with the whore.. your husband is the one you should deal with. AP are desperate insecure losers who only believe the cheater.

        Cheaters lie & keep you in the dark! Don’t waste anymore precious time on him. Confronting the whore gives your husband kibbles & makes him feel so wanted because two women are fighting over him!

        Lawyer up & divorce the cheating dirtbag. Like me, how much time will you give him? I was in denial for 2 years but after getting physically & emotionally sick I decided my life is more important than the two losers. The whore ow is unimportant.. Take your self respect & rid yourself of the toxic people in your life.

        HUGS ❤️

        • Kathleen, I’m not sure how much longer I will be here but she is a flaming Narc who has messed with me too much and I want her to go down too. I’ve had it. He will be dealt with also. His reputation and financially!!

          • M
            Good for you. I know how you feel. The anger hatred & all the humiliation they put us thru us devastating. But if you can just not let them see you upset it helps you & shows them you don’t give a f—- what they do.

            The longer you stay focused on them the longer the pain stays. I know!

            He’s lying to you… please put yourself first
            As hard as it is, it gets better with time. I rather be alone, financially strapped then being used & treated like garbage.

            Please take your power back & focus on yourself. It was like a knife in my heart when I discovered the ow. But save yourself & get out. You can do it!!

            God bless you ❤️

    • In all fairness, it was me who said to my ex that he only cares about how good she gives head and how he goes down on her.

      That was back in July before I found CN.

  • I’m totally embarrassed to admit that I did confront the OW, I even had her and ex in my house together 🤢.

    “You might delude yourself into thinking you need to talk with the affair partner for reconnaissance purposes. To compare notes. Maybe that person will tell you things your partner will not.

    They might. And it might be a pack of lies! Consider the source. There might also be some truth in it — but how fucked up is that? Would you really consider staying with a person who won’t tell you the truth — you have to get the details from their fuckbuddy? Really?”

    This.

    I wrote a letter to ex (I know another thing CL doesn’t recommend. I hadn’t found her at this point) I didn’t get a reply from him but I got one from the OW. I think it was pretty honest and gave me more in-site into what had actually gone on. Ex had given me little info apart from listing all the things that I did to make him leave. When they were in my living room the OW had lots more to say than ex and he just came up with more and more excuses for whatever I said. It was that day that I realised that trying to get him to understand anything from my perspective was futile. I realised I no longer knew the person standing in front of me and that the person standing there didn’t care one bit about me. I found CL/CN soon after and it has literally saved my life.

    • (((((((Pregnant Chump)))))))\

      Oh honey…I’m so sorry.

      You and your children are gonna be so much better off! Truth sister! I wish I had gotten out when my sons were babies…sigh…

      Don’t ever let anyone like that into your life again. Learn about the disordered and walk away from them immediately. There is a mountain of information on CL and from CN to learn how to spot them. Learn…and keep them out of your life and your children’s young lives.

      Hugs to you and yours.

  • Well I did all the wrong things, I didn’t know anything about infidelity, didn’t know Chumplady existed, or any other forums. I was a complete idiot.

    Not only did I confront the OW (a “friend”), I told my Ex that I was going to talk with her! Uhrrr.
    But I did find out a few things (lies?), at one point I asked her, “so what do you see in EX?”
    and she replied with “well he is very much like my Dad, and I always knew I was going to end up with someone like him” LOL (ex is 20 years older than OW).

    Now, I would tell anyone going through this, not to confront, one of the things that was hardest to accept is that THEY DON’T CARE, not about the pain that they are causing you, not about the pain they are causing the kids, they simply care about themselves. To know now that I opened up to these two idiots about that pain, to let them see how pathetic I was – it makes me cringe. I have forgiven myself for that, I didn’t know any better, I actually thought that by me showing them my pain that they would stop, they would think about what they were doing to everyone. NOPE.

    They are still assholes. Can’t co-parent with my EX. They are both just vile, awful people. And I’m so grateful that she took him off my hands.

    • They really don’t care. EVEN if the OW/OM has children and/or is married and you might think that they have some sort of compassion or empathy and would instantly stop doing what they are doing because they actually feel bad that about it and they are hurting you so badly. Oh no. Probably the more horrifying part of uncovering an affair is this fact – THEY DON’T CARE. This part was SO hard for me to reconcile in myself. It still is. It’s just really hard to realize that this person that you picked as your mate – through sickness, health, hard times and good times – actually doesn’t care about you. They only care about themselves. Cake. Cake-ity, Cake, Cake, Cake.

  • The AP is not the chump’s problem. It’s easy and tempting to refocus there because it’s not emotionally complex. Still, the chump’s sole problem is the cheater. The cheater is the know entity, the one who made and broke the agreement, the one who didn’t he damage. APs are pawns. They chose to function as the cheaters’ objects and are, therefore, not really relevant as people when it comes to discussions about the relationship between chump and cheater.

    Engaging an AP for any reason other than briefly notifying an unwitting AP about their participation in a cheating scenario is usually ill advised in my opinion. Staying focused on the real problem — extricating the cheater from your life with minimal damage — without getting distracted by AP noise is most often the straightest path between BS and sanity.

    • Totally agree Amiisfree, because if it wasn’t this ap, there would have been another.

      Still wasted to many thoughts on her but sort of felt the need to see who she is. My friend who looked at her social media validated me that she comes across as the mean girl who would have made fun of the fat kid at the lunch table in high school.

      She seems like a narc herself and at 53 wears clothes that show way too much skin. She has spent too much time in the sun. One of the funnier things was a tweet about a guy in a pick up pulling up next to her when she was walking on a hot day and saying “boy it’s hot out, almost as hot as you 💁🏼. Her college age daughter responded- did you use the wrong emoji- did you mean 😝,😠,🤢🛑❗️

      Did have to sit across from her for 3 hours in her deposition where she was unable to look me in the eye the entire time. Shows her undying loyalty to fuckwit. Just wait until she sees him for the sparkly turd he is. She now leases an apartment in our town which is 2 hours away from her job. No chance in hell fuckwit would ever do the same for her. He said it best at his deposition: ap has her life and he has his. It will never be a partnership but she doesn’t get it.

      He will use her til he doesn’t need her just like everyone else. He makes no bones about saying he doesn’t care what others think.

      He boldly announced at his mother’s deposition that he wasn’t going to play nice with lawyers because he wouldn’t need them after the divorce. As he said in a text to my daughter :#truthteller.

    • Amiisfree – Absolutely! APs are interchangeable. The AP does not play a role at all. It could be anybody, so the AP really does not matter.

    • Amiisfree –
      NAILED IT. You have summed up the most important issues here beautifully. It took me a while to figure this out. I focused on her bc it was easier than facing the truth about fuckwit. HE cheated on me. She has her own husband (and a reported history of screwing men in her truck that she isn’t married to), but SHE isn’t my problem. She just helped reveal HIS lack of character and talent for ongoing deception. I should thank her, but I won’t
      #youreapwhatyouho #skankyisasskankydoes

      HE deserves divorce, shunning, NC. Truth telling to mutual friends. And is getting that.

      I DESERVE honesty, loyalty, trustworthiness, freedom – and gaining a NEW LIFE!

      Feelingit – my MOW (Daisy Duke) was very similar to yours- 20 yrs BossHogg’s junior, dresses like a teenager – from the ’90s, tats, facial piercing, endless social media selfies – numerous daily. Ugh. Not worth my spit if on fire. Your depositions sound like torture. You are MIGHTY.

    • Thanks, Friends! As always, I pay the advice of several smart therapists forward. I bless them all for their teaching with my whole heart.

    • I agree that you shouldn’t focus on the AP. However, I do not agree that they are just pawns. They knowingly got involved with a married person, many of whom have kids. They VIOLATED you, your marriage, and your family.

      If someone broke into your home, stole your valuables, and destroyed everything else (even if your spouse left the front door open), wouldn’t you still feel violated by that intruder?

        • That is one other reason I have told myself I will not speak to AP. She is a snake who has hurt my family and she has no right to know me. I have no social media presence and she only knows what fuckwit or his parents/associates tell her. I made a point of not speaking at her deposition, only staring. Let her think whatever she wants because it will not be the real me.

          I would never warn her about fuckwit or his family. She deserves them. Let her find out on her own, just like me. It is a long painful process. I will not deny her my garbage if she wants it.

          • This is the right attitude! Focus on your needs, F them. They end up with exactly what they deserve, and you get blessed freedom, and a chance at peace!

          • That’s how I felt. Skank has no right to know me. She lives in a dirty gutter, and I don’t visit gutters. Not to say I haven’t imagined all my perfectly clever things I would love to say to her that would get through her Skank brain and turn the selfish whore into someone who has a soul.

      • Yes, of course I would feel violated. You are right about that. The analogy I was addressing is that the cheater gave the thief the address and a key, told the thief what to steal and where to find it, rented and drove the truck, participated in the thievery, and drove off laughing with the other thief. The other thief is definitely guilty and should have bad outcomes, but the theft never would have happened without the cheater. The cheater is the one who instigated it all. The AP is a pawn in my analogy not because s/he isn’t responsible or reprehensible but because the AP was only there to harm the chump because of the cheater.

        And, to clarify, I would only advocate for telling an unwitting AP (meaning the AP definitely doesn’t know the cheater is in a committed relationship) and only a brief conversation, not a long commisseration session. (Of course, that’s a generalization – YMMV.)

      • I see what you all are saying, and I think the informed AP and the cheater both have agency, they both have choice, and they both actively choose to do the wrong thing. I agree too that the cheater is the “bigger” problem as they are the ones we are tangled up with, and whom we have to directly extricate ourselves from. The best way to do so is to disengage with both of them with as little fanfare and drama as humanely possible. Do not give them what they want. Loads easier said than done.

    • I agree with this completely. The cheater is the problem, not the AP. It may hurt less to direct your anger to someone that you don’t know instead of the person who you thought loved you, but it’s not productive. Use your anger against your spouse to propel you through and over your trauma.

  • Ten days after Dday, when she was telling me she wasn’t talking to him I watched her chat with him via Facebook Messenger in real time (I had an old phone still logged into her account) after the conversation ended I confronted her and she lied about taking to him I then told her I was watching. I went back and confronted him. He pretended not to know English or who I was, (he’s an illegal alien) he thought he was cute. I then asked him if he cared about hurting our kids. That struck a cord, how could he act like he didn’t care about her kids? He couldn’t. Checkmate motherfucker. Well I found it that it’s over now, almost year after Dday. This weekend she looked depressed, didn’t shower all day, stayed in her New designer sweatshirt hoodie (like a teenegaer). For the first time I’m beginning to feel acceptance. And a little bit mighty

  • I confronted and busted them both. I HAD to know for sure. He was insisting that there were no more affair partners and that he was being faithful but that I had trust issues, was invading his privacy, and now just demonstrating that I would never be able to let this go.

    I found out exactly who he was forsaking his family for. A girl less than half his age!!! She was only 28. And they were most definitely together. How could she want MY husband? A 60 year old married man with two kids? I simply could not understand this. Never will. They must not reason like normal, well-adjusted people.

    I thought she would leave him for sure after that, but she seemed even more determined to win him. It didn’t matter because I decided that I did NOT want him back anyway no matter what and filed later that week.

    All the deception, lying, covering up, etc. in combination with this horrific discovery caused me to come somewhat unhinged. And the cognitive dissonance. Ugh. I practically ran him over with my car when he blocked my exit telling me not to leave him. He paid for my therapy (and my counselor assured me I’d be better off without the cheater and explained the effects of adrenaline from the fight or flight response).

    Do NOT do this. Do not confront. CL knows exactly what she is talking about. They are dragging you down to their filthy level. Choose between your cheating spouse and your self respect. Choose you! Be mighty!

      • It won’t last. He will live with paranoia that she will cheat….and she probably will. She will dump him when he is at his weakest. You are the winner in the end- she “won” a cheater- you got one out of your life.

      • He’ll probably cheat, too. A baby? at HIS age? HAHAHAHA – I hope you’re sitting back for your almost insta-laugh, neverwouldhaveimagined!

      • A baby, at 60, a real dream-come-true 🙄
        Someone’s trying to pretend they’re young again! Delusions.
        This reminds me of a family member of mine, guy almost 50, co-worker 27, it was love at first sight. He was married with four kids.
        He got divorced, and married her, but the karma was huge. I know she found out too late- she won an alcoholic control freak, she was stuck, and she passed at only 65. I have knowledge that she was miserable. Him, he was fine, he had a fresh victim, and she had to pretend it was great. So crazy. Even though there was no additional cheating, that’s still not a good partnership! More like a good victimhood. No thank you to that, personally I’d much rather be alone!

  • Yeah, cheaters love that sort of thing. My cheater had already admitted to an emotional affair and the lay counselors gave us the movie FIREPROOF to watch. Her favorite part was when Caleb confronts the doctor cheating with his wife (and NEVER his wife over her affair). The counselors thought that was wonderful. “Accountability” is wonderful as long as the cheater is not the subject of said accountability.

  • I liked messing with one of the OW’s head, as she was in our faith community. She had to watch James Bond and I dance together, and we are hot dancers. She had to hear me say, I need to get home, James Bond is waiting for me. I IM’d her when she was on vacation, and told her that James Bond was making plans to take me there, as he was, but he was IM’ing her too at the same time, as if he would go see her there. She flipped out, haha!

    Yes, she is mentally ill, she told me so. She is also entitled, thinking that she had the right to poach my husband, because I am a white lady (she is not).

    Oh well. We’re divorced now, and it’s Tuesday!! Meh is good.

  • I haven’t had the chance to confront the OM, though I would have loved the chance. Now, I realize he’s as big of a loser as my ex-wife is.

    I did inform OM’s wife though. I don’t see any issue with that and even if you take out the “revenge” factor, she really deserved to know what she was married to.

    • Yes, to informing the chumped spouse which takes both courage and restraint but is the right thing to do. Of course, what he does with that information is up to him.

    • I did this, too, with a mixture of revenge & empathy. He sounded surprised. I didn’t name names, so it took Daisy Duke a week to sort out who had called. Also, she, her husband & BossHogg were doing business together – that ended (i think) when I confronted him. HUGE loss of income for their family.ALmost makes me sadz…

    • I also let the fiancé know what she was getting into…… the other parties do deserve to know. What they do with it is their business!

  • I didn’t confront the AP, but I sent a letter to his wife. I figured she could put some pressure on him to lay off.
    Oh, was I wrong.
    The wife got the letter, and didn’t believe any of it. The AP convinced her that I was super crazy, and made it all up. (He may have also convinced her my ex was clingy, or in love with him, or something). They actually sent a copy of the letter to my now ex. She treated it as a trophy, proof that her pathetic husband just couldn’t let go. I’m sure a lot of other people saw it, too. It was humiliating.
    Some of my ex’s friends apparently showed her proof of him cheating or pursuing her, too. (And yet they stayed friends with my ex…is that messed up? But I digress). She didn’t believe a word of that stuff, either.
    I don’t miss any of these people.
    I actually feel really sorry for the AP’s wife, though. I wish she would find CN.

  • “Shared sense of humanity” with a gradwhore who insisted Hannibal leave his wife (me) and a 5- and 10-year old for her, and stayed in the room to hear him ask me for a divorce? Ha, no sense of humanity there (she got her comeuppance when he dumped her 4 days later instead, with me still clueless).

    Shared sense of humanity with Hannibal’s last AP (now GF)? The one who was married herself with 2 children, and whom he convinced to leave her perfectly nice husband after I refused to take him back after D-day? Ha, I can’t relate to such a person enough to have a conversation. And she got her comeuppance, too–moved in with Hannibal and within a year and a half, had to go on antidepressants ‘cuz living with him ain’t no treat.

    • Tempest, I’m always amazed at the grad-whores. Don’t they realize that Hannibal can shit all over their dissertation? One would think that self-preservation would make them run the other direction.

      Oh, sorry. They’re special.

      • Sadly, it works both ways–Gradwhore-of-the-affair-fame left the program months after he broke up with her.

        But Hannibal did crap all over the dissertation of another graduate student who would NOT sleep with him (and she left the program after a period of prolonged stress during his devalue of her academic work). It’s a tossup whether it was more dangerous to give in to him or to resist.

  • Where were you, Chump Lady, 12 years ago? I contacted three of the ex narc’s multiple APs (his subordinates; no sexual harassment laws in my country back then), who were all married.
    #1: I went to her house twice; she wouldn’t come to the door so I spoke with her husband who denied everything. Some time later I called her, and she said she regretted what she’d done.
    #2: I paid her a visit at her new job (my cousin was her boss so she couldn’t say no). She told me the narc always said I was crazy.
    #3: I called her at 2am the night before my first Christmas Eve without the narc, spoke to her husband and told him everything. The next day she called me and told me no wonder God had taken my oldest son away, that I was an evil person. A couple of years later I was petrified to read on FB (meh had not arrived yet) that her teenage son was being treated for cancer. And I was really devastated when I heard that he had died. I’m all for karma taking care of cheaters and APs, but the kid and his family were innocent.
    Looking back, I truly regret having done what I did (and if I lived in the US I’d probably be facing stalking charges). It just confirmed the narc’s lies about me being batshit crazy.

  • I found out that asking the Schmoopie direct questions usually gets you only lies. No one will get the truth they want so badly. But once I was able to gain access to his electronics and social media accounts I was able to see how much he lied to her about everything. She was being manipulated by her lover more than I was. So I figured if that was what and how she chose to live her life then who was I to deny her that “pure bliss!” But those lies went both ways because she wasn’t totally honest with him either (big surprise). Once I gave him his divorce and they finally had their dream life it didn’t last long. It was a record four months after the divorce that the “twu wuv” came to a grinding halt! It just isn’t as much fun to have an affair unless there is triangulation!

      • Yes Zell, they were “twin narcs” sucking the life out of each other and it didn’t last! These affairs seem to flourish for approximately two years, but they will last longer if they can triangulate. That’s why it’s important to just file for divorce, go NC and gain that life we all so deserve. I will put this disclaimer in though, if the Schmoopie gets pregnant or they marry just to show everyone how in love they truly are then it may last long enough to get the wee one out of diapers! Second marriages have poor odds when they are with affair partners. The odds are worse when the age difference is large also. I wish the “happy couple” luck!

  • Here’s my take on it.

    My opinion is the APs are tools, tools of a narcissist.

    My husband cheated once and I knew all of the details and they haunted me!
    The details did me no good. They were torture. They are a false sense of control in the “crazy”.
    We honestly reconciled and they still haunted me. That was years ago.

    The second time he cheated and fessed up he assumed I’d want to know the details as I did before (kibbles anyone).
    I refused. I didn’t want to know who the whore was and I didn’t care to know any details.

    I knew all I needed to know.
    He wasn’t who I wanted to be with any more.
    He wasn’t trustworthy and he didn’t deserve any more attention.
    He wasn’t who he promised to be multiple times.
    He had proven himself fully.

    Part of gray rock is not asking questions, that is just more kibbles.
    I’ve been away from my cheater for almost 10 months.
    I can tell you without a doubt it is killing him that I don’t ask questions. That I just walked away.
    Other people tell me things (to which I also reply that I have no concern for him any longer).

    They (Ex and/or AP) just aren’t worth it. They have proven that. Its who they are.

    • Beautiful – wish I were more like you, but I’m inching in that direction. Thanks, outofashes. You rock!

      • Keep inching!
        One day it just clicks. I still miss the friend I thought I had in him. He was that good of a liar 🙁 I know in time that will go away as well the more I realize who he really is.
        We all rock simply because we are getting away from the crazy. 🙂

    • Yes outofashes… this is exactly the way to go.

      “I knew all I needed to know. He wasn’t who I wanted to be with anymore…He had proven himself fully.”

      Yes, yes and yes.

  • Man, what a buzzkill! Sorry that happened for you. Thanks for sharing your trainwreck…I could see this happening under the influence.

    I called MOW’s husband to tell on her. Didn’t name my stbx, so they had to weed through her numerous liaisons to determine who it might be! Took them nearly a week to hone in on him. Blew up his phone freaking out…!

  • For another perspective, when it “works” to confront and the long game of horrors you get when you do (spoiler alert, it DOES NOT WORK):

    When my fuckwit was having an EA/(I think probably PA too) 9 years ago with a little co-worker twit, I was crushed and immediately penned a letter to her explaining the damage she was doing and that they need to stop. I hand-delivered it to her home, complete with pictures of our tween girls attached, and put it in her mailbox. The very next day she announced to my fuckwit that she “couldn’t do this anymore” and it was over. Two months later she quit her job and radically changed her career. The cockroach crawled away. I won the pick me dance….. right?

    WRONG.

    Fuckwit said nothing to her, nor to me. No remorse, just “confusion” and sadness, after all he had just been dumped. Poor sad sausage. I pick me danced like a madwoman but he didn’t fight for either of us, just sat there in his passive aggressive, silent and brooding, in his little dirty diaper. He doesn’t know how to do feelz and couldn’t express anything to either of us. We went to useless MC, he stopped participating when we got to his issues. Soon after he took a job overseas to the middle east for 2 months and it really seemed to change him, to give him perspective and appreciation for his life (not that he ever actually said this, it was my massive spackle job). He went to the middle east a couple more times in the next 9 years including a 2 year expat assignment. I thought we were OK and put my head back down like a good little doormat.

    Well, it happened again this spring, with him abandoning me while I was on a work trip and sending me an e-mail fuck-off after 31 years together. I accused him of there being another woman and of course he denied it and declared all problems with the marriage were all my fault. He moved 5 hours away to where our now-adult daughters are in school, to “Be There For Them” and rescue them from their horrible mother. He then proceeded to work hours away from them, too, and wasn’t around much.

    But our now-adult daughters and I knew there was another woman becauawe he kept texting her in front of them all summer when he was around. At dinner, at the ball game, whenever he was in town he really wasn’t there, he had that damn phone attached to his hand and wouldn’t stop. Well, this last week we found out who she is with some online snooping. She is another young twit co-worker, in fact she is our daughters age, and she is in Europe now (he met her due to his international work travel). So he is preparing to move to her country now and run from his mortality. My daughters are horrified because this is very much like they are the ones being abandoned, and the OW is their peer, not his.

    So no, I didn’t win. I confronted years ago and made one miserable cockroach run into the dark, but where you see one there are always more. Fuckwit is the problem, not these idiot OWs. I am sure each one of them thinks they can win him, they think they can fix him and rescue him. The current woman “won” the pick me dance since we are divorced now.

    But what she really has acquired is an evil, selfish man who has dumped his family to chase her and will never be there when she actually needs him. Because he sucks. He is no prize.

    I am working on meh, and I am glad to say that seeing a picture of the OW didn’t have the same affect as 9 years ago. I feel awful for my daughters but I will do my best to be straight with them and remain sane. They are approaching wanting to go NC with their father which I have not endorsed nor warned away, but they may have to do that if he continues his behavior. I will grab the popcorn as he self destructs, and cry my eyes out when my daughters send him an e-mail announcing weddings and grandchildren. He deserves nothing more from them.

    • “he didn’t fight for either of us, just sat there in his passive aggressive, silent and brooding, in his little dirty diaper. He doesn’t know how to do feelz and couldn’t express anything to either of us.”
      WOW – do you KNOW my STBX? This describes him. My life for the past…__?__ years.
      I hope your daughters will be well. My adult son is struggling with catching his father in lies (“not even important things” he told me. Um, yep). My teen daughter is MIGHTY – she wants NO lies! I love her to bits. Your daughters will take care of themselves because they see you do it. Bless you all.

    • Now IC, I’m sorry that this happened to you, but am completely on board with what you are saying about confronting to get the OW out of the picture. No you actually don’t win the pick me dance. The game is rigged, just like IC says. I lived with my X for 3 years after DDay and at the end, he was doing the weirdest stuff that all pointed to an affair even if that wasn’t what he was really doing. The trust is gone. In my opinion, the trust can never be regained and what’s more, all respect and integrity is gone from the marriage/relationship.

  • STBX cheated for over 20 years with hundreds of women, but I only have two names that hold absolute certainty. He refused to give me more names … probably because I had confronted one years prior and he knew what to expect.

    Just a couple of years into the marriage, STBX and I worked together briefly. He had worked at the place for a while and he helped me get a job there just after I had our 2nd child. One of the women who worked there obviously didn’t like me, but I just figured it was personality differences. Ha!

    One day I walked in from a back room and saw her bent over in front of STBX, his crotch pressed into her … she was giggling. I lost my shit. Completely.

    I let them both have it — loudly and with a great deal of anger. I told her to be grateful that I put my kids first because I very much wanted to beat her ass in that moment. I guess she believed me because I scared her into quitting.

    STBX? He didn’t say a word during my freak out. Just kept his eyes down like a dog busted for chewing up the toilet paper. Later he denied anything more than flirtation and swore on our children’s lives that there was nothing physical. He gaslighted the hell out of me and a marriage counselor. He even managed to make me look like a hyper-jealous, overbearing wife (which, regretfully, the counselor believed).

    Eighteen years later, I learned the truth … they had been screwing for about a year by the time I started working there (which includes during and after my second pregnancy).

    While I agree with CL that there are just too many variables with these freaks to risk confronting the AP, I am glad I did in this specific case. It turned out she had been stalking my family — even moving into an apartment facing ours (so she could see all of our comings and goings) and cutting her hair to look exactly like mine (among other things). The confrontation worked in my favor, but only because I was able to intimidate her. So, basically, I was *lucky* it ended up working in my favor.

    At the end of the marriage, when I finally figured out another APs name (a recent one), all I did was inform her husband. I wasn’t willing to take the risk I had previously by having a confrontation. By this time, I knew how lucky I was that the earlier confrontation had worked out in my favor. Live and learn.

  • It was actually my attorney that told me to talk to the AP (young schmoopie 2.0). I found texts between my almost 50 year old now ex and our teenaged daughter’s 20 something year old assistant sports coach (ex was volunteer coaching). Ex was taking our DD14 to expensive dinners and using her as schmoopie bait. Yep because I am such a bad mother and wife and young schmoopie can swoop in and save them from me. They both suck. My attorney told me to confront her and that sometimes knocks some sense into these young girls.

    It didn’t sit well with me, but I emailed her. Yep she was ‘surprised’ by his interest in her. And I guess not so surprised by his checkbook since he has MD at the end of his name. She said she would respect my wished to stay away from him and both of my children. Now 18 months later she is gloating about not only moving in on the ex and my life, but also constantly texting my teenaged kids trying to be their BFF.

    I’m so glad I kicked him out of the house, notified the school so they could both be fired, and divorced his sorry ass. She still thinks she won Dr. Sparkly 😉 He’s all hers. The kids are what bothers me now. I really wish I hadn’t contacted her back then as the ex would say ‘she’s innocent in all this’.

    I used to think he was so nerdy he couldn’t see the threat of these vile women swooning in to take advantage of him because of his occupation. Now I see him as the predator using this to seek kibble thrills from dumsel in distress ho’s. He brought this kind of crazy home to you where you, your kids, and your family lives. This kind of crazy willing to believe their lies are not going to believe you. Best to leave these 2 turds in the toilet where they belong and FLUSH.

    • I left out that he left us when the kids were young for a ho worker, but I let him back in with his false remorse. Ultimately the grass wasn’t greener with that ho. But I don’t think he ever stopped looking. Two suspicious secretaries over the years. Tons of porn. Total self centered ass and entitled. My life is peaceful at home. It would only feel better to see this twu wuv implode. But he can’t be alone so it will be another crazy one, possibly worse and with a bunch of kids that my kids would have to pick me dance with. I’m trying to be grateful this one is single and has a job now.

      • They SUCK when they involve the kids! When my teen DD wanted to work with STBX (contractor) this summer, he suggested she work with schmoopie (who is a house painter, his subcontractor) instead. This was a week before DDay. DD told me afterward and I wanted to cave his head in. Adult son later told me same skank came on to him, too. When I told fuckwit, his face nearly fell off.
        Trust they suck.

  • I wrote two emails to the AP after DDay #1, neither of which I actually sent for which I am grateful. In the first one, I triumphantly declared I had “won” the pick-me contest (I hadn’t, I just didn’t know it) and explained in great detail how lucky I was to be the chosen one (I wasn’t lucky OR chosen). In the second version, I told her that my cheater told me that their relationship was over (it wasn’t) but if she could provide proof that they were still together (she could have) I would let her have him. Now I think subconsciously I didn’t send that version because I was afraid of having to confront the truth. For me, writing the emails was cathartic. I’m glad I got it all out of my system and am even happier that I had the good sense to leave them in a folder on my computer rather than sending them to the OW. I still pull them up once in a while and read them and shake my head at my naivete and chumpiness.

    • Beth, I wrote letters, too. One, fairly soon after DD (“How could you?!”), since I had considered her a friend, and it was my way of letting her know the friendship was OVER. That one I sent. She responded rather meekly, and attempted to explain that her self-serving behavior was justified, in her mind, as being “beneficial” for my marriage. God only knows what my husband told her, but I can well imagine.

      I didn’t bother to respond. I have another, much longer, letter ready to go at the tap of a finger, should it ever come to that. It details the many ways he betrayed HER as well as me. Have fun with that, schmoopie. And don’t ever say I didn’t warn you.

      I wrote her a very brief note the other day to let her know my pap had come back positive for HPV. I admit to feeling slightly smug that the news may cause her some distress. So sorry, schmoopie….

      • Oh wow, I’m so sorry about the HPV result IvyLeague. That just sucks. I consider myself very, very lucky I didn’t get an STD given all the strippers my ex was banging and then having unprotected sex with me. I get the letter you sent. His cheating with your “friend” is a double betrayal. I would have had to say something too.

    • Beth — so so smart not sending! I could take a page out of your book. I haven’t sent anything to anyone, but not because I didn’t want to. I DID post a response on a gossipy local webpage that someone else had named Daisy Duke by first & last names, described her vehicle & what she does in it & where (post from years ago). I just chimed in a “me, too” thinking it was anonymous, then my hometown appeared on the post! Too identifying! Need to know how to have the whole thing removed…more than I had planned to reveal! Ugh! Rollercoaster emotions not my friend!

      • Yikes Longing! I hope you can get that post taken down. But even if you can’t, at least you weren’t the one posting the pertinent details. That’s something at least.

  • Ugh. I did this. Not during the affair, but around 1.5 years ago after we divorced and XW was coming to my house to hoover: telling me she still loves me, how unhappy she is with the OM, lying down on my bed…

    During a child-exchange he came at me aggressively, telling me that I was a bad father, “don’t even look at her,” “she’s going to be my wife in a few months…” Telling me to get out of the car…. Just going all wanna-be alpha-male on me to protect the centralized Damsel in Distress.

    I was “trapped” in my car with my kids still getting their stuff from inside XW and OM’s house and I couldn’t resist.

    So I calmly told him all the above about his Damsel’s hoovering. His face got beet red and he snarled, “I don’t believe you.” I looked at XW, who was mortified that I told him. She said “He’s lying.” I said mildly, “Ok, you’ll find out in due time.” He was apoplectic. I thought he might shoot me. (Tough guy carries a gun.) Maybe deep down he knew I was telling the truth.

    In any case, no, don’t bother confronting.

    Oh, and almost two years later? She’s not his wife: she broke off the engagement and ratcheted up her hoovering even more.

    What a chump. The OM, not me anymore.

  • Great advice, but I’m afraid it came a little too late for me. I blew it and confronted her paramour (my best friend at the time) about the rumors I’d heard. Of course he just denied everything and glossed over the whole incident. I realize now all I did was feed the guy kibbles and, indirectly, fed her kibbles too. It worked out in the end, though. Both are out of my life for good and there is NO contact, nor will there ever be again. A king-sized “meh” replaces those relationships.

  • Sooo, I’m doing paperwork, and I discovered, finally the proof she’d continued banging her geriatric boyfriend for the past 1 yr 1/2 of reconcilliation making the only sale she’s made at the new job to him. Now I know it’s dicky, but honestly I truly hope my attorney subpoenas both at the same time. I really just want to confront her but I can’t be that stupid, so thanks for letting me vent.

  • The MOW (that’s Married Other Woman) lived in another state and we were so flipping poor because X couldn’t work jobs that were beneath him, so he couldn’t work at all, or I would have flown out and ripped out her hair!!! I felt absolutely stark raving crazy! So instead I wrote her a chumpy email telling her what I really thought of her. Instead of answering me and facing up to what she had done, she talked to X about it. And from their This Love Is Bigger Than Both Of Us moral standpoint, they laughed and mocked me.

    The sure fire way to revert back to middle school drama and politics is to confront the affair partner. It is a complete lose lose situation. CL is 100000% right. Whatever you do, don’t confront the AP. It’s just more humiliation and triangulation for you, more kibbles for the cheater.

  • I’ll say it this way, what would be the point? The OM in this case isn’t worth the time or effort. Confronting is pointless, especially when to comes to infidelity. No, she can have him, I know how worthless he is and she can support him – and she is. C’est la vie. In the end I win and she has to support an complete loser.

      • I knew what you meant BSOD_Chumped. I think you’ve reached the level of “meh” when it comes to the OM, and that’s a good thing. My fucktard went on to support several “OM” and in the end lost them all and now lives all by herself. So sad, I cry crocodile tears every night. Wha -wha- whaaaaaa.

  • “You’d find more satisfaction lighting yourself on fire.”

    WORD. Could not agree with statement more if I tried. Caffeine is now all over computer screen.

    Snowball, I think you were brave, even if it didn’t turn out the way we all hoped it would.

  • I have not confronted Schmoopie. In fact I have avoided her like the plague since DDay. Catching even the slightest glimpse of her fills me with rage. This is uncomfortable for me because it just isn’t like me and it is scary. I fear that any confrontation would end in disaster with me looking bad (at least to ex) so I avoid it. That doesn’t mean that I haven’t told her off a few times in my fantasies. In my fantasies I always have the upper hand, say clever things and she ends up feeling wretched. I have enough life experience to know that it wouldn’t turn out that way in the real world so I will just have to be satisfied with the fantasy.

    I did almost make an exception to the above a few weeks after DDay. Ex kept implying that he wasn’t being very nice to her either and that it wasn’t all sunshine and roses when they were together. He said that someday she and I would be friends in the old folks home and find out from each other what was really going on. This had me thinking why wait? Why not talk to her now and find out “what was really going on”? I actually drove to her house, but I did not see a car in the driveway. Also it occurred to me that if I knocked on the door and one of the kids answered that would be awkward so I drove away again. That night I discovered that she had sent ex a movie invite earlier in the week which had him all hung up on her again. Then the next day she dropped by his workplace for a visit. That is when he decided to give up on MC and move out me. I am so glad I didn’t talk to her. She wasn’t an innocent victim in all of this. She is a selfish self-serving woman who doesn’t care who gets hurt in the pursuit of her own wants. I trust that she sucks right along with ex and I want nothing do with her at all ever.

  • Chump Lady after reading your post today I am questioning everything I have done since I found out 4 months ago my STBX was having a five year affair with the OW. I had to be put in the emergency to bring my blood pressure and anxiety down. Followed with being put on depression and anxiety medication. I am seeing a psychiatrist and I asked them after I found out about the affair if I should let the OW and her parents know the kind of person my STBX is. He said go for it if it makes you feel better. So I did. My STBX informed me via text that our marriage is over and I crossed the line doing that. I hurt innocent people. Your blog states today it is wrong to confront the OW. Yet many on CN were glad I did this. I am feeling lost today because I come to your site for support and now I am confused and feel what I did has no support.

    • You wound up in the emergency room. Sounds to me that he is the one hurting innocent people. They blame. And he had the perfect chance to put crushing blame on you. Of course he took the opportunity. You see his true colors and they are all still fooled. They run to whatever stokes their ego and worships them. Him stating the marriage is over because of your reaction to his marriage-ending-actions of having an affair… crafty little mind f@cking cheaters. Hold your head up. We are only human. You listened to a therapist when you were in the eye of a terrible trauma storm.
      I notified the husband of his married mommy of 2 coworker whore. He didn’t leave me because he likes my money. But he did rage and shame and guilt me for “handling it wrong just like everything I do… I can’t do anything right”. He told me I was supposed to contact HER! And I knew this. The delicious triangulation was what the swine wanted. That’s why I didn’t do it. I notified the chump husband. I should have just filed but I don’t beat myself up about it… I was in no condition at the time to be that strong. Live and learn. If we ever come up against this again we will know what to do. Hugs to you💜Noregrets

      • Thanks Whatringofhellisthis,

        The pain is still there because the letters I wrote did nothing. The OW is still with him and constantly posts selfies of the two of them and updating the cover page. Everyone on CN told me to stop looking but today’s post triggered me. Would my STBX stayed with me if I hadn’t informed the OW parents and her about him? There has been NC with my STBX and myself. He said we are done! It is over!

        • NOREGRETS –
          NONE of his crap is on YOU. He did what he did because HE wanted to. Like the affair itself. Like lie to you. betray you. And he is just using your actions against you. You did what you did with professional support (maybe not the wisest, but we do the best we can with what we know at the time) – you are learning from it. You are well rid of such a horrible man. He’s no prize. What she “wins” is a cheater – if he does it WITH her, he’ll do it TO her. Or she will, since she doesn’t care either.

          Don’t beat yourself up or second guess. CL & CN are about asking ourselves “What do I want?” “Is this acceptable to me?” When I told my STBX that I was filing for divorce he said “I don’t want that.” I replied – “We’re here because you DID what YOU wanted. Now it’s MY turn to get what I want.”
          Even if it isn’t your choice to leave, you can be grateful that you won’t have to look over your shoulder with that loser any more. Go take a short walk, come back & Please re-read some of the others’ posts – they are sharing their experience to help others, not to beat anyone up. I bet you do that well by yourself, after having been manipulated and gaslighted that every wrong thing he does is your fault. It’s NOT. Honest people of character do NOT have affairs, they don’t blame their faults on others.
          Cheaters con & manipulate and twist EVERYthing to their benefit. Don’t accept his blameshifting – you didn’t make him have an affair. Trust that he sucks.

        • Oh, my – block them BOTH on social media – huffing that drug is very bad for your sanity. It took me a couple of weeks, but I blocked her pretty quickly – she posted veiled messages to me regularly & had people stalking my site. I just blocked him & it feels . So. Good!

          • LookingforMEH-ca, Twiceachump, and Lyn

            Thank you for your posts! Yes he is definitely blameshifting everything on to me. The OW is enjoying provoking and tormenting me with her every few weeks new cover pages on social media. He is enjoying it as well because he knows I look. I can’t go back to someone that had a five year affair that I know about. I suspect there were other EM affairs as well. He’ll never tell me just like he never told me about the five year affair. I find it ironic that her own parents are going to accept the relationship. Well at least she will wonder ALWAYS if he will cheat on her or just dump her, but then again marriage is being discussed now.

            • No it’s not wrong, just essentially point less. Chances are these evil bastatfs think something like this: everyone fails me, no one is worthy of me, everyone and everything is shit so I’ll just take whatever I want.

              So you fucked up their relationship with their families? No problem, they were doomed from the start. Friends hate them? They were idiots.

              As for you? They know you’re the enemy and want to destroy you. Block them from your life. Know this, secretly the same way they feel about everyone else, they feel about eachother. It’s only a matter of time. I’m going to lawyer Weds to file, I can’t think about anything except my children’s faces and how much I love seeing them every day and crying. I know, we all know your pain. I’m so sorry you’re here, but there’s nothing you can do differently. If you didn’t tell they’d think you were stupid and laugh. If you tell, you’ve gone too far and you’re the enemy. The game is rigged because they’re the only ones that get to make the rules. You’re good. You did the right thing. You’re a good person who married a bad one.

              • DunChumpin,

                Unfortunately there friends don’t know. My STBX parents and siblings don’t know. The only one that knows is OW parents and the OW know what they are getting in my STBX. My STBX planned this whole thing because he never thought I would kick him to the curb. He lied plain and simple about everything. He has no remorse or empathy about what he did. I crossed the line by sending the letters and he has moved on with the OW. I don’t regret what I did by telling. But as I have learned today it doesn’t do any good except make you look like the crazy person.

        • NoRegrets, unfriend your ex and OW on social media and when you’re tempted to look ask yourself, “Would looking help me or hurt me?” If the answer is, “hurt me,” choose to look help yourself heal by not looking.

          Wondering whether your STBX would have stayed if you hadn’t informed the OW parents is just a form of the pick me dance. He already made his choice when he decided to have an affair. It’s just who he is.

        • I understand your pain. I tried every strategy to be heard and it’s impossible. These people aren’t made of the same things we are. It’s like trying to toast bread in the dishwasher. In my opinion there is nothing you could have done to have a different outcome. Even asking them what to do is useless. That turned into an assault on everything I am that needed to change in order to keep his attention. No way am I walking around town in a micromini skirt acting like a dumbass giggling and smiling like a fool. Nice try creep. We don’t degrade ourselves to keep these abusive losers. I would tell you to delete the fb app from your phone like I did. When you are in pain you take a pain killer you don’t throw yourself down the stairs. Try just deleting the shortcut from your main screen to train yourself not to open it. Be kind to yourself. You are an amazing loving honest person. There is nothing you could have done differently. Its hard to sort it out because the pain of being discarded is blurring your mind… but if he was begging to stay with you I bet you’d be saying you’re not so sure you want him. Its the ultimate game of hard to get. Makes you think you want him. You don’t want a man like him. 5 year affair! Screw this guy! No one treats you like that!

        • “The pain is still there because the letters I wrote did nothing. The OW is still with him.”

          As your therapist said, “do it if it makes YOU feel better.” You, not her. OW knew she was fucking a married man, so getting a letter from his wife wasn’t going to change anything from her end.

          “… and constantly posts selfies of the two of them and updating the cover page.”

          Unfriend and block them.

          “Everyone on CN told me to stop looking.”
          Yup. You gotta. Only crazy lies down that path.

          “OW is enjoying provoking and tormenting me with her every few weeks new cover pages on social media.”

          Maybe so, maybe no. Maybe she just likes posting things on facebook regardless of whether you look. Doesn’t matter. It’s not your business, now un-friend and block them.

          “He is enjoying it as well because he knows I look.”
          Stop looking.

          “Would my STBX stayed with me if I hadn’t informed the OW parents and her about him?”

          Who cares? Other than the fact that you’ll never know, why would you want him to? He was a lying cheater who chose her over you. Maybe he would have stayed to drag more begging and kibbles out of you if you’d groveled nicer. Would that have been better?
          Maybe he would have let you beg him to stay for a few more months before walking out –
          would that have helped? Maybe the letter *was* the thing that pushed him over the edge – so? He chose her over you the day he decided to cheat on you. The rest is just details.

          “He said we are done! It is over!”

          Yup.

          If you’ll allow some amateur analysis, your problem isn’t that you told OW’s parents. Like CL said, confronting the partners can feel good, but it doesn’t actually help anyone “see the light,” because they already knew what they were doing. All it does is give the AP and cheater more drama – but it’s not the problem here. The problem is that you keep going back for more grief. So un-friend and block, and work on yourself and your future – not second-guessing and internet stalking.

        • Noregrets, you asked would he have stayed with you if you hadn’t wrote the letter? He may have. But you my friend would have to live every day knowing he had cheated on you for five years, he had lied to you and deceived you for five years. He gaslighted you right up to the end, blaming you for the end of the marriage. Because you told. Not because HE did all the horrible things that he did to you. And the horrible things he would have continued to do to you. Would YOU have wanted to stay with him. Would YOU have wanted to share him. Would YOU be happy sitting at home by yourself knowing HE was with her? If he had stayed, you would NEVER have peace again. I was one of the ones that gave my cheater a second chance. Like many of this board, my story is the same as theirs. The cheaters all did it again. What I want for you is to stop blaming yourself. You wrote a letter, he cheated and deceived you for five years. It doesn’t even come close to comparison. You are only four months out. The more time that goes by, the more you will be able to look back and see how badly he treated you. The more time that goes by, the pain will lessen. Don’t be confused by what people are saying on this board. They are all telling their stories. Some confronted, some didn’t. We all handle things differently, especially when we are hurt, devastated and angry. You wrote a letter, I put nice little star shaped screwdriver holes all over the car he loved so much. And guess what I did, I LIED to him for the first time in six years. Said I didn’t do it. And I should be ashamed to say, but it felt great. Please take care of yourself, do what makes you happy. I put you in capital letters because that is all that should be important to you right now. You. She got the lying, stinking pile of garbage. No offense intended. You get peace. It will come. I promise.

          • Kim, you are one of the very first people that responded to my first couple of posts and picked me up when I really needed it. I have had good days and bad days since DD. When I saw CL post it triggered me and I felt like I did everything wrong. It means a lot that you once again responded to my post. You are very MIGHTY! I really enjoyed the screwdriver on the car that you did to your X. I would love to do something like that to my X. Hopefully getting served over Thankgiving will start the process. He can choke on her can and boxed Thanksgiving dinner. She does not know how to cook. LOL. Not my problem anymore. No looking back….just FORWARD. Thanks Kim for being their for me. 😊

            • See I am moving forward. I identified him as my X, but unfortunately he is only my STBX. Not for long though.

    • I don’t think she’s telling us it’s wrong, she’s letting us know it’s futile. Cheaters gonna cheat. It doesn’t usually make you feel any better, it only makes both cheaters feel good for being central and like they matter. And I think your STBX is using the fact you did confront to blameshift his actions onto you more. They both suck. They are not normal. They don’t have normal feelings and empathy. They are pod people. It’s like spitting in the wind with these losers.

      But you do matter. If it made you feel better than it wasn’t wrong. I did it too as my attorney advised me. All it did was make schmoopie pursue the turd more aggressively. Now she has the sparkly turd AND my kids #winning. My attorney told me it may make her come to her senses.

      So I really think it depends on your intent when confronting. If it’s to get them to see the pain and devastation, it’s probably pointless. If it’s to let you vent your anger on your road to meh, and it makes you feel better, then it’s not wrong.

    • NoRegrets, this is such a hard thing to navigate. Whatever you did, don’t blame yourself because you were put in a situation that no one should be put in. It’s very painful and hard to know what to do. I also said things to my kids I wish I could unsay. I agonized about whether to tell the AP’s husband about what I’d discovered. Many people gave me advice and no one agreed on what was best.

      In the end, I did what felt right to me. I followed my counselor’s advice. She said to put that energy into rebuilding my life instead of trying to explain anything to OW and her family. She said it could backfire and they would probably accuse me of making it up because “I was bitter.” Had she given me the opposite advice, I probably would have followed it because that’s what I was paying her for!

      So what if your husband says you crossed a line? I think HE crossed the damn line when he had an affair! Take the guilt he’s trying to put on you, and place it squarely back on the shoulders of him where it belongs. Hold your head up high!

      You, more than anyone in the universe, deserve your own love and compassion. Don’t beat yourself up. You’re just doing what you can to live through the tornado your husband created. Deal gently with yourself for what you’re going through.

      • It’s NEVER okay that they cause hurt, Lurkmode. That’s why we are here.
        What we are learning is to keep the focus on ourselves and OFF of their narcissistic selves & behavior.
        We trust that they suck.
        Now…how about us? What’s next in my brandspankingnew cheaterfree life?
        I am ecstatically looking forward to discovering who I really am, what *I* want, what *I* need, how to improve my kids’ lives, how to start a whole new story, how to AVOID attracting & inviting harmful people into my life.
        I know what I’m leaving behind (deception, betrayal, suspicion, fear, crappy self esteem, disordered sex life, other womens’ underwear & naked selfies, porn addiction, rage & sullen pouting… to begin with) and I DO NOT WANT that anymore. I deserve more. Better. Truth. Trust. Joy. Freedom. Friendship. Creativity. Options. Choice. Real hope (vs. hopium).

    • You cannot have a 5 year affair without a lot of lying and gaslighting. If people were hurt, it is not because you spoke the truth. It is because of the actions of your STBX and OW. Their actions!!

      CL’s post is about how confrontation is often futile. It rarely has the outcome you may be seeking. It is NOT about how it is wrong. Big difference between futile and wrong. The only reason you are feeling like it was wrong is because your crappy STBX is blameshifting to you. Don’t listen to him. HE is the one that caused hurt.

    • You did nothing wrong, your ex did that. In his eyes you would have been wrong no matter what you did. There was no way to win. He would have found one excuse or another to blame you for his bad behavior and leave. As others have pointed out, confronting the OW is not wrong it is just pointless and does not good. That doesn’t meant there is anything wrong with you for having done so. Your ex still would have left if you hadn’t informed anybody and he still would have found a way to blame you and it still wouldn’t have been your fault. It’s his fault (with help from her) period.

    • “Innocent people”??? Seriously? The innocent person who was hurt is YOU. That is blame-shifting, absolutely. My husband didn’t want me to tell schmoopie what HE had been up to with prostitutes, Carig’sList hookups, etc. “It will hurt her!” Like I give a fuck. And, apparently, I am impervious to hurt.

      While I certainly think going no contact is the best way for YOU to heal, I also think there is a bit of a public service you did in letting other people know what a scumbag your STBX is.

      • Ivyleaguechump,

        I told the OW and the OW parents that I contracted HPV and I’ve never tested for it in 24 years. My STBX and the Skank gave it to me. I am sorry that your POS gave it to you. This pain that everyone experiences truly sucks. Thanks for your response. Hugs to you!!! Be Mighty!

    • I support you fully! and did much the same when I had my first DD.
      I actually wrote (and sent!) a scathing email to the first OW and it was NOT PRETTY. it was all the worst things possible: gloating, condescending, insulting and demeaning…and to be honest, I felt so much better… until she wrote me back, with no humility at all, full of arrogance and vitriol.
      So I wrote back, and so on, and so on… but… if I could do it all over, would I? I am afraid I would… one thing I know about myself… I need to be heard…. maybe ego, maybe naive, maybe arrogant myself. But I cannot allow any transgression to go. There is so much more to this story, but my point is we do what we feel we must, at the time.

      • Audacious,

        Thank you for being supportive! This is my first time discovering DD. I am sure I was with a narcissit that has no remorse and lacks empathy. I have a lawyer and the papers are going to be served at Thanksgiving. I feel it is appropriate for the asshat. I hope a 2X4 hits him hard and he chokes on someone else’s stuffing and mash potatoes.

  • Whatever to the AP. Anyone empty and ethics free enough actively to participate in damaging kids so deeply is not worth one scintilla of my time or notice. The sociopath? Her problem now. May every shred of consequence they’ve earned themselves be richly and eternally experienced.

    Have fun with that.

  • After dday 1 (“we were good friends, too good, just flirty texts” says cheating husband) she contacted me and told me she would never normally do anything like that she was married with 3 children they got too close. The only thing he has said about me was that i am amazing! Fast forward 2 weeks later texts from her to him(no reply from him he hadnt even opened the messages) saying being without any contact from him was abject torture and he was with her constantly etc etc. This was when i forced his confession thatvthey had been sexual but he swore on our kids lives only once. I told her husband he then found out from her it wasnt once!! She the. Emailed me saying how sorry she was and hoped that i found peace. The next paragraph was full if how my husband was her saviour of the job they were working on together and in turn became her personal saviour – it was an extension of friendship and felt totally natural and comfortable!!! Wtf? Minimising much?!

  • I went to OWs house about 4 weeks after he had left. I had his guns in the trunk. But they weren’t home. Called him, told him I have your guns in the car, if you don’t come, I will leave them in the front yard. He threatened me, said she would call the police. I just laughed. But eventually I drove home. The second time was when I saw a video of them on FB. That was in May. I drove to her house again, not to confront her, but to confront him. He wasn’t there, but she was. SO he called and threatened me again that she would call the police and file for a restraining order. I do not react well to threats. On both occasions it was about confronting him, not her. She is interchangeable, so I really didn’t care.
    Now it is good riddance and good luck to both of them, they will need it.

  • “…started threatening me with stalking charges because I called her one time. My high was immediately ruined”.

    I called the whore OW once. Left message, trying to be classy, but by the end of it, I told her to “Keep the fuck off of me husband. You don’t need a problem like me!” She filed an injunction against harassment against me. She put him up to filing a PO against me 10 days after she did.

    She and my cheating husband determined I walk a different path in life for the next 40 years, but *I harassed them*? I think my XH’s whore is a mix of desperate and narcissist. He married her. My guess is that by the time they divorce, she’ll file a DV against him. After all, the crazy won’t just go away now that she won the pick-me-dance. He’ll be administered a heaping dose as well. Karma.

  • I got a Facebook Messenger message from my non-live in boyfriend of 15 years AP. She wrote “I dated X for the last 5 years up until January of this year.”

    After confronting him, I replied to her message about a week later:

    Dating? You weren’t dating. You were fucking. There is a difference, I don’t recall seeing you at any of the family parties or special occasions over the last 5 years – and as he said to me “she’s a skank groupie that means nothing to me” so I guess I really wouldn’t call that dating. Not sure what lies he told you about me or our relationship – but you’re welcome to him. I have gone to get a full STD panel so I’ll be sure to let you know what diseases and infections you may be carrying.

    Probably shouldn’t have – but it sure did feel good at the time.

    She responded back with a bunch of crap about how he told a much different story, we were no longer together in that way, blah blah blah.

    I responded that we stopped sleeping together about 2 years ago as he couldn’t get it up or keep it up without Viagra and refused to talk about it. Oh – did he tell you that he didn’t need it – it just made things better?

    Of course she didn’t respond to that…..

  • My ex-husband’s AP at the time (several years ago) wanted to talk to me. She was messed up.
    Fast forward one relationship (on my part) and a few years: I have not confronted the ‘other’ woman (ex-boyfriend’s co-worker). I don’t know whether she was even aware that ex-boyfriend and I were a couple while he was grooming her to replace me. I remember several weeks before the discard him not wanting to be seen in a group photo taken at a party with me. After the party, he told me that he was concerned that his ex-wife (who cheated on him years earlier and who he divorced years earlier) might see the photo on social media. At the time, I thought that the response was strange but didn’t question it. Now I wonder if the real reason was he didn’t want future partner to know that I was his girlfriend. Now it seems as though he’s living it up with his childless, younger, higher earning than me partner while I am alone. So painful. I have dreams of longing for and being with him and sleep (badly) only a few hours per night. I have severe nausea. I feel as though I am in an extremely long nightmare–one that will never end. Any suggestions?

  • AP confronted me thru Facebook, saying I needed the “facts” so I could make an “informed decision (to go away)”. Because Cheater had betrayed her too and she’s been in love with him for 20 years and she just has low self esteem.

    So I hit her up with “the facts”. Namely, (1) quit yer crying about betrayal because ya had no problem with betrayal as long as *I* was the one being betrayed and (2) your low self esteem is not my problem—re-evaluate yourself and do better next time, be gone, you’re dismissed.

    She immediately blocked me on FB. Which was cool because in the words of the great Mariah Carey, “I don’t know her.”

    I don’t advocate going out to confront the AP because why? Your real problem is with Cheater, not her/him.

    Now if the AP comes for YOU, you have the right to stand up for yourself & hit them with the facts, so THEY can make an informed decision.

  • Most of you know my “driveway confrontation” story (https://www.chumplady.com/2016/10/the-stranger/) and gave me pause this morning as to whether it was the right thing to do.

    In hindsight, I could have been much smarter by simply letting the ‘date” happen, documenting everything in secret, getting all ducks in a row, lawyering up, and serving her divorce papers before ever letting on that I knew anything.

    However, I hadn’t yet found Chump Nation and been the beneficiary of so much wisdom (I don’t think 4a.m. 4ever, the person who directed me here, had found it yet either), and I was still of the misguided opinion that there was a sliver of decency left inside that massive emptiness that is Kunty Kibbler.

    At the time, and within the context of what I was thinking and feeling, I needed to have that confrontation for me. To show that I was, despite her actions, was not n invisible presence, and to assert that I was not to be simply discarded.

    That I mattered — if not to her, than to myself.

    All of that said . . . CL is right.

    — There was indeed no shame. Maybe in the moment, and only on the surface. Only when I forced KK to tell the Carrot Singer that she didn’t get the black eye from me — that she in fact got it from BDSM Guy — did either of them show any indication of shame. Shame directed toward each other, not toward me or the devastation they’d created. The fact that KK was “sad about how things were left with the Carrot Singer” the very next daytells you all you need to know about her shame level.

    — He may well have been batshit crazy. He had boasted to her about carrying a gun with him at all times. That’s why I decided against barging in on them, and instead took the strategy that I did. it took me a long time to admit to myself that it could have ended badly for me regardless of how I ended up handling it.

    — It was indeed kibbles for KK. She spent a single day with eyes red from crying, then spent the following Friday night at BDSM Guy’s house for more than 4 hours. I’m sure she spent that night, and much of the following months, in self-glorification over how much attention she was getting from all sides. Her celebratory mood in the weeks following — including hooking up with RPD — speaks volumes.

    It’s not at all easy to be of completely sound mind when deciding whether or not to do the confrontation. What I think Tracy is trying to get across is — Do not expect a confrontation to be a fix, or an “a-ha” moment for everyone involved. It will not change the shittiness of their character, it likely won’t make you feel any better, and it very likely could hurt you strategically as you move forward.

  • I never confronted the Affair Partner. Why not?

    There were a variety of reasons. I didn’t think it would do any good. Schmoopie had a track record of sleeping with other people’s husbands. Also, while Schmoopie had CheaterX by the short hairs (she took “pussy-whipped” to a whole new level), he voluntarily surrendered that control over to her. He could have said no at any point.

    And that’s the big thing. He needed to tell her no, and he didn’t do so.

    I was reminded of something that one of my sisters told me about one of her ex-roommates. This particular roommate believed that she was God’s gift to men and that men at her workplace all wanted to have sex with her. She let it be known that she really liked married men. My sister was incensed, especially when this information came out in the light of an affair with a man who had 4 children. My sister wanted to know how the roommate could destroy the lives of the poor wife and those 4 children. The roommate’s response? “He could have said no.”

    • I always focused more on my ex than with OW. Because HE was the one who made the choice to get involved with her. I didn’t see him as a weak creature who couldn’t resist the wiles of another woman. I saw him as a person who enjoyed kibbles.

      • Yep. My CheaterX is also weak. I never saw that in him, but once I realized he was a cheater and once I had some emotional distance, I realized that he lacked a spine. He liked the image of being an upright man more than he liked the work involved in being an upright man.

  • I have let go of the need to confront the OW about the affair. She can have STBX. He makes me sick and she keeps him distracted.

    The issue I have is I want to confront her about helping STBX hide income through her for his side business. Now, that financially impacts child support and my kids. Mess with me, you suck…I can accept that. Mess with my kids…see where the issue is????

  • I confronted 2 OWs, One by email (to which she never responded) and one via phone last weekend after she met my child without my knowledge.

    If I had to do it over, I wouldn’t. I thought I was helping these women to see what a colossal douche my STBX is, but in reality, all it did is feed into whatever narrative he has going about me. I finally came to this conclusion today (seriously I feel like CL has a line into my brain) after I had a little embarrassing weekend where I overstepped a line not with the OW but a friend of the OW. The STBX mentioned nothing about it when he picked up our child this morning, but the smirk on his face said it all. It made me realize that I am actually turning into the crazy person he has me labeled as.

    The reason I am having a problem letting go and healing is because I am almost obsessed with everyone knowing what he did to me and reacting how I would to it. That is not just going to happen. They know he left me during cancer and they have rationalized it with themselves. The current OW actually told me she thought long and hard about getting involved with a married man, but we’ve separated so that makes it ok with her. Um okay, if you think it’s okay to be the second OW of a married guy who has been separated from his wife for less than 6 months, then you deserve him. Also, the OWs own friend said he won’t admit to anybody that he is dating her. I know it’s been said a million times on CL, but hearing that really nailed it in for me that she is getting no prize.

    • For what it’s worth, I think what they did to you is fucking unexcuably bad. Anyone with a shred of decency ought to see that. Hope you have been telling your story to everyone else in your life, too, because you deserve support from real and true people who have your back.

  • Boy did I struggle with this for the first year. My draft email folder is filled with diatribes I wrote to her, but never sent. Here’s why I agree with CL wholeheartedly… and thank God every day that I found Chump Nation.

    Mr. Sparkles pro-actively “confessed” to his OW (who I do think was a Chump to some degree)… that he had created many online profiles and responded via email to personal ads as a way to PUNISH ME for installing spyware on his computer. For whatever reason, she was ok with that being his behavioral response to my action.

    The truth was, and I have the purchase invoice to prove it, I installed the software and within 24 hours accessed his TRASH CAN and found six months of emails going BACK from when I installed the software, not AFTER.

    But, she was so “lovebombed” that she dismissed me when I tried to tell her about it (and I was only trying to tell her because while he was dating her and we were divorcing, he had a NEW AD on Adult Friend Finder looking for women/couples/groups.) She subsequently dumped him.

    Guess what he told the new Girl With Dogs… that the OW (aka girlfriend) CHEATED ON HIM. He played the sadz card to land his new victim.

    Lesson: Karma DOES come full circle. Step out of the way. Focus on you (and your kids if you have them). There is nothing else you need to do. Truly.

  • When I finally found out the truth of my ex’s situation – I confronted him and she was cowering in the next room. I asked him what kind of woman goes after another woman’s husband. Especially, when she knows said wife, has been in her home and knows their children. I said only a special kind of cunt. He knew I rarely used that word but she deserved everything I said about her. I know she is afraid of me, as well she should. But the father out I get, I keep laughing at the fact that when he is 70 she will be 49, and how enamored of an old fart will she be then? Will she keep her promise and declaration that he needs to live another 30 years after they get married so that they will be married longer than we were? I sincerely doubt it and I will be laughing the entire time. Our adult sons refer to her as the ‘bitch that destroyed their family’, so yeah, that’s all going to work out well when they get married and have kids.

    • Love this. Guess they would have to marry now, and last until he was at least 84 (to her then 63) to get it done. REALLY hope they do. Nobody deserves it more.

  • I met with one ap. In a public place with my sister near by. I asked if she knew he was married. She said yes but she thought we were getting divorced. News to me! If nothing else meeting her confirmed that cheaters can’t get partners using honesty. They lie to everyone.

    • She also thought she was the only one. I told her she wasn’t the first nor the last. She seemed genuinely shocked to hear it

  • I confronted the OW and it all did was make me look bat shit crazy which she loved and made her feel justified fucking my husband and blowing up my marriage. These people couldn’t care less if they hurt others because it’s all about them and what they want. She was just getting out of a long term marriage when she started putting the moves on every married man she worked with. She didn’t think twice about rushing off to of a motel with a married man. She won the pick me dance. I wish I had never contacted her but at the time I was hoping she might be a real person. Pfffttt.

  • I didn’t contact the AP. I wrote his company’s corporate legal department. He was VP of finance and their corporate policy required moral turpitude of its officers. Though he kept his job I did hear he was admonished and embarrassed by the President of the company. Good for the ass wash dickhead. Haha.

  • I never did confront Senor Moneybags although I did make a lot of effort to learn what I could about him.

    The RIC message to me was that he was just a symptom and not the actual problem – something that I believed then and still do. I think that Mme YogaPants was “doomed” to cheat at some point in time. Sometimes I think that he’s a victim of all this too.

    I was tempted twice to “interfere”. I had one fantasy of sending him hookers and making sure that Mme caught him at it 😀 The other one was to take all the boxes of her crap that she’d left behind, drop it in his driveway with the divorce paperwork and a note saying “She’s your problem now”….

    I do still remain baffled by the whole thing although I don’t try to understand it much any more. He’s about 10 years older than me, recently lost his wife, rather well off but not spectacularly and so was an obvious target for any predatory woman. But of all the ones out there, he picked Mme??? He could have done a “lot” better. She was maybe just the first he came across. I’ve checked the online dating sites and there are significant numbers of mature women local to him who are already unattached and who are not short, fat, with a bad temper and crazy relatives. Not that I have anything in particular against short women who have ample curves. I was married to one for more than half my life.

    It was hugely frustrating to me how things kept dragging out with no sign of an end. Perhaps the opposite of the “pick me” dance? The ass between two bales of straw story used to come to mind.

    Oh well – not my skein to try to untangle. I’m hoping to hear from my lawyer in the next few days that the separation paperwork is finalized and then with luck I’ll be divorced by my birthday in the spring. No clue what they will be up to.

    I hope you are doing better Tracy. Fortunately CN is somewhat self-powered in some ways like an improv theatre where you can just toss out a topic and we’ll amuse ourselves. I hope Mr. CL is keeping up the flow of hot tea. I suggest a spoon of honey in it and perhaps a drop (or three) of brandy – yes – I’m a dad – can’t stop trying to be nurturing.

    BT

  • I never confronted OW, but did take a picture of one page out of our phone bill (detailed phone usage) and emailed it to OW’s husband without comment. Less than one day’s worth of the phone calls and texts between her and STBX. I do not know what came of it – he never responded to me and I am trying to stay NC now, but this was a way to make it a more objective communication. I don’t know some of you at CN got access to STBX texts, etc. My STBX’s electronic devices were always locked up tight and he would never tell me the code (“that’s private!”)

  • I contacted OW twice, once to tell her to bug off, which she immediately reported to X and a second, better time, after X left when I heard from my mom that OW had approached her at church and wanted a chance to explain things. I told her if she had business with anyone it was with me and to leave my parents the hell alone. That was more effective.

      • Yes! The gall! The only thing I can figure is that she wanted to try and turn them on me, like that was ever going to happen. A year later she told my mom she “missed” her, what a mindfuck.

  • I admit, I snapped once and went off on the OW. Primus Turd specifically scheduled a time to for us to separate our web hosting account and websites (which I am sure she was aware of), so of course she called with an “emergency” in the middle of our already very stressful and complicated task. I completely snapped and grabbed the phone from him and called her every name I could think of and she was completely, deathly silent the entire time. I mean what defense could she possibly have, what response could she have for me? All I wanted was a couple of peaceful hours to work out this technical problem so I would not have to speak to him again and I could not even have that. OW are deeply, deeply insecure creatures and I am sure she was terrified of us being alone together. I wonder how being the marriage police is working out for her now? lol!

    I have since seen them out together in my neighborhood and I wasn’t sure how I would react, but I was calm and did nothing. She looked extremely crazy and agitated like she wanted to cause a scene. I have heard from others that she has a drinking problem and is very confrontational, so, I am steering clear. They frankly just are not important.

  • I confronted two of the x’s AP’s that were allegedly friends, one in person, one via email. The same basic message for each:
    I know you’ve been screwing my husband. We are no longer friends.

    Same basic response from each:
    1-Lies and denial and wanting some level of engagement to “clear things up”.
    2-Immediately shared the accusation with her husband or boyfriend and convinced him it wasn’t true
    3-Maybe even more immediately contacted the x and gave him an earful or a lot of tears and self-pity. X did his best to make me feel like I was a crazy and bad person. Too bad for him and them that I had the emails and knew the truth (not that I shared my source- had finally wised up by that time).
    4-One of my friends told one of the AP’s that if she didn’t tell her husband, he would. Things got pretty heated with exchanges and threats before she figured out it wasn’t me

    Getting those two out of my life was one of the things I did right in navigating my way to a cheater-free life before CL and CN existed. I’m glad didn’t bother with any of the others. There were a LOT of others but given that my x stated clearly to all his skanks that he was “happily married” , I didn’t see anything positive that could be accomplished by contacting them.

    I’m still happy with the direct confrontation with the “friends.” I was calm but firm and left no room for ambiguity. It was a nice clean ending on my terms.

  • I actually spoke with one and got a whole lot of details. Things cheater obviously did not want me to know. Granted he was just a horny 20 something year old who was a bit scared. He was also told she was separated and filing on me. Sang like a bird!!! Originally attempted to speak to others but gave up that pursuit. Once you figure out that it is actually worse than what you imagine it is, why keep digging? Waste a lot of time and energy. They just don’t like us…. they hate us….. and they suck. Enough said!

  • It’s been almost a year since I filed after learning of his girlfriend, and him bragging to a friend about his “decade of indiscretions”. The divorce was final in March and I came *this close* to emailing the girlfriend. Thank the gods CN talked me down in the forums. Thank, ya’ll! It would have just made me look like the crazy bitch he told everyone that I was.

    I don’t think about the ex too much anymore, but had to laugh a bit about a month ago. I was at a party with my new boyfriend, and an old friend of mine told me the ex still calls him and said his girlfriend is in jail. Ha! I kept calm, though and just said I don’t talk to the ex, no reaaon to. But, gotta admit, that made me laugh inside. A lot.

  • Get well! We’ve had some weird weather up North-a 20F Degree drop in one night and a stomach virus running through the community. Rest up.

    The weirdest fuckbuddy of the asshat was a ‘Christian’ MOW. Porn and Scripture in one breath or in one email. I never confronted her because Why would it matter? Their ‘love!!!’ was already ordained by JC, nevermind the pesky 10 Commandments.

    I consider myself Spirtual after having a full Roman Catholic indoctrination, so professing one’s faith IMO must be congruent with one’s actions. The kicker for me besides the MOW’s overt hypocrisy, asshat is not religious, but it does help to think of himself as a church goer in creating his mask, was the almighty Lord forgiving her for her sins. Uh. No. That’s not what I read and analyzed in the Old and New Testaments in my undergraduate Religion class.

    She felt or even feels today that this was NoBigDeal because God forgives everyone’s transgressions. This is her only mechanism to rationalize her brutal decided actions against a stranger, the chump, which contradicts the tenants of her ‘faith’.

    The LT relationship as asshat’s second wife was her second go-round. The first netted her her current spouse. Afterwhch she bagged multiple other partners without her spouse’s knowledge AND she and her spouse fully explored their Swinging side.

    The Jesus Cheaters KNOW they live in a Circle of Hell and according to their deep beliefs and will continue to reside there once they are dead and buried. I did the untangling early on. It was weirdly fascinating because I never had to participate in a sociopath’s game before in my life that affected my life and my childrens’ lives.

    My suggestion to new chumps is Never Confront the APs. They are a supremely fucked up bunch, this includes your SO too. DO inform their spouses with evidence. The spouses need to know because these idiot cheaters most likely carry nasty STDs and informing the spouse it is the respectful, courageous thing to do, not bitter not spiteful. I’m done with Woulda Coulda Shoulda BUT had I been informed, I would be fully meh right now.

    Chumps, please spend your energy on yourselves and your children / fur babies. Any energy spent on the MOW is hindering your healing and keeping you tied to your cheater.

    • Please excuse grammar errors.

      The person above was the LT MOW. The other MOWs tended to be co workers and clients, sure lays at conventions and corp events. I guess they could also be considered LT…..

  • I haven’t confront the MOW (and my good friend), in the 16 months since DDay1. Other than texting the morning after I found out, where she admitted she was scum, would hate her too if she was me, admitted to making long term plans with my husband, etc. Saved all of the texts.

    I also have copies of all of their emails where they discuss the presents she bought him, and she calls him ‘my love’ and ‘sweetheart’. Copies of her tweets that say stuff like “you can finish the book if you keep reading the same chapter” and “you can’t steal second if you won’t take your foot off of first” and “be brave with your life”. Plus the handwritten love letter where she says lots of incriminating things, among which is she is so full of adrenaline that she could hurt herself or someone else. She wrote it while proctoring an EOC as a high school teacher. She is bi-polar but not on her meds according to her husband, and has a violent temper.

    She is a Temptress. Knew exactly how to tempt him, because we were friends and she asked pointed questions about our marriage and relationship. I thought I was confiding in my girlfriend, not his.

    I KNOW that my STBX is the one that broke his vows with me, although I will admit I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time focusing on her. It has made me crazy. I’m just now realizing that they are both just alike – excellent liars, true narcissists, completely self-absorbed and could care less about their children – and being able to lie and manipulate for over two years straight to my face means they are both disordered at the least.

    I’ve tried to talk to her (not confront, just tried to appeal to her as to why she could break up our family since she knows me and my kids, and knew we were happy)…. but she won’t talk to me. Her husband and MINE say she is terrified of me. Wonders if I’ll sue her for Alienation of Affection or Criminal Conversation. My lawyer says I can but that all in due time.

    Does anyone have thoughts about this? On the one hand I think it’s a waste of money, and I should rise above it all. On the other hand, 21 years gone with her help, and there are consequences to that. Oh, and she really, really cares about her reputation as a teacher and pianist in church. I think a public lawsuit would make her flip her bi-polar lid.

    • First, your former friend is not a Temptress. She’s an opportunistic idiot. To say she ‘tempted’ anyone into doing stuff is ridiculous and takes responsibility off of your cheating asshat. These idiots are ADULTS who plan and devise ways to deceive you and your kids, so much so, that their bald-faced lies to your face are plausible-with you unknowingly enabling their shit.

      If you focus on ANYTHING, focus on their possible need for you to be silent and USE THIS to the betterment of your divorce. I’m not saying you overtly make it clear that their deeds will become public knowledge, let your attorney handle that. 🙂 I’m saying ensure they are aware you have lots of documentation and their betrayal results in a settlement which provides you with a clear future.

      If you have time and money, go for Alienation of Affection. I think just listing the APs in the court documents scares the shit out of them. List them.

      Do not contact your so-called friend. Any info will be between attorneys. You can rest assured your asshole will inform your friend of the details. Do NOT mediate finance with these liars.

      • ANC, You’re right, I get caught up with aiming my venom towards her. My STBX is the one responsible for breaking his marriage vows… and logically I know if it weren’t for her it would’ve been someone else. He actually “prayed” for someone else to come along… because I was overweight, didn’t want sex as much (menopause and didn’t feel sexy bc he made comments about my weight), and I didn’t make enough money (and I tried to pay penance for this by keeping the house extra clean, working with the kids, cooking a lot, etc.). I couldn’t please him.

        I’m working through my issues with a counselor. Gaslighting and emotional abuse will do a number on you, and I know most of you know this firsthand. It creeps up on you. When my gut was telling me something was off, and suspected them of having an affair.. he told me that he loved me and would never do that to me, that she was my friend and wouldn’t do that either, and that if I weren’t so overweight I’d be more confident and wouldn’t worry about other women. And all this time, they WERE having an affair.

        I have another question… and I know it shouldn’t be my focus, it’s just one of those days. They’ve schemed and lied for 2.5 years, and now he’s left for her and she’s divorced her husband and taken her three kids. He says he’s not really committed to her, they’re just “talking” (high school?). But they’ve gone on trips and out on dates in the next city over. It’s not public… yet. Although everyone in our small town knows about it, THEY think no one does because they haven’t actually gone out in the light of day. It’s still sneaky and fun, I guess. The question — could they actually make a life together, be happier than we were in our 21 year marriage? Will it last? I know I shouldn’t care, but I do. How can two people devastate everyone around them including their own children and be happy? How can another woman do that to a family with kids and sleep at night? Gah!!! One day I’m good, then I’m untangling that skein AGAIN.

        • All you need to know is that they will not change. Every single thing that was true for you about being married to him will be true for her. Even worse, since neither can trust the other. No matter what it might look like (suggestion: do not bother to look at all) from the outside, they bring them same old hell along everywhere they go.

    • I know EXACTLY how you feel CreativeLifer. My ex cheated on me with a good friend. (Some friend, right?) It drove me insane. It’s the worst betrayal on many, many levels and I’m sorry it happened to you. Although he is to blame, she also actively pursued my ex (even though she is married). When I found out via butt dial and confronted them, I punched her square in the face. It is certainly not in my character to be violent, but I was being lied to by both of them for months. She gave a smug smirk and I snapped and leveled her. It felt awesome. It was the first night in months that I actually slept. Suddenly being treated like an outsider and being lied to is stressful. Add not eating or sleeping and anyone turns into a hot mess. Hang in there. It does get better. Going through that horrific experience taught me that if you sense something is not right, trust your feelings. No use begging for the truth. You shouldn’t have to beg your husband or your friend to be honest. Trust they suck.

  • Cheater won’t disclose Slag’s identity. She obviously knows who I am. Cheater claims he met her after he left us, but I know it’s a co-worker. I knew it was in the making, months before he left. His emotional abandonment and abuse, his snark, his secrecy with his phone and the constant texting. He pushed me away, then I reacted (and in a dramatically pregnant sort of way). He used my reactive anger as justification to leave (or I kicked him out. It depends on the situation as to how he’d like to remember it. As in reference to the affair- “you kicked me out, remember???” or in reference to my behavior “I was tired of being yelled at so I left”).
    Regardless, I know she was in his life before he left me and was a motivating factor in his abandonment. One does not randomly mention a co worker’s tattoos and hair, and the way they dress, without having a reason. He was excited about this person’s interest in him, however could only express it in platonic ways.
    Once I suggested he had intentions with unnamed co worker, he never mentioned her again. I flat out asked him if he had the affair with his Co worker when we were in MC and he got highly defensive stating that he would discontinue MC if I interrogated him.
    The MC gave me a side glance and in the next session without cheater (cheater never returned), mc thought it was odd he would get so defensive, unless of course I was right, which he suspected I was.
    I have no intention of contacting Slag. Any “woman” who’d willingly involve themselves with a married man who “left” his pregnant wife and young toddler is just as vile as the cheating spouse. Would I spend time trying to get a tick or a tapeworm to explain their existence? No. They’re parasites, taking what isn’t theirs, and depleting the quality of life from those affected by their nature.
    Having said all of that- I do feel the need to at least know who she is. If I ever cross her path, I want to know who I’m looking at. I don’t want her to have the satisfaction of hiding under a rock.
    If I had the balls, I’d just turn up unexpectedly to cheater’s work with the kids. Since she’s been around my son (unacceptable) he’d probably point her out. (I wouldn’t never instigate him doing so, he’s just social with stellar face recognition).
    But I don’t have the gall to do it and it’s probably best. If I’m ever to know who she is, I’d like the information to come from cheater.
    My faith in humanity been compromised because of their actions and how it’s affected me and my children. I’m left to battle anxiety, depression, anger, and at times, rage all while caring for two small children. It isn’t fair to them that their mother is suffering and cannot give them all of her. I have days I can hardly get off the couch. I’m an empty shell of who I was. I feel like rat in a cage.

    • You know FedupChump it is hard and you can’t be there for them now as much as you would like. But…don’t do what I did..drag it out over years and years. They may not even remember much of this time. Don’t make it their whole lives. I wish I could give you a hug and a big glass of wine.

      • Thank you 💕
        I am just trying desperately to find myself and figure out my next move.
        Funny thing is that cheating husband left me during my pregnancy, no problem but refuses to leave now. I am a sahm and have little access to our finances. He finally agreed to open a joint check acct, after 10 years of marriage. He still has a primary checking acct that I have zero access to. He puts just enough $$ in the joint acct for groceries and gas.
        Like I said: rat in a cage.
        I do not want to model to our children how a marriage should never be. There is no balance of power and there’s minimal respect on either side.
        Just today, he found a card I wrote to our 3 y/o son, and questioned my wording. (I started out by writing “I have no words for the joy you bring me”. Only to continue to describe how much I love him) He thought it was strange that I’d state that I have no words but to continue to… write…. words.
        I felt completely diminished. And what I thought was a special note written for my child to look back on years from now was now made to be an awkward statement. One I should throw away to avoid embarrassment or shame when my child is old enough to understand what those words mean.

        • FedUp, you are actively being abused. Ask me how I know. Please consider going to http://www.thehotline.org/. Call their hotline — they are confidential and extremely helpful.

          They can help you set up a game plan to escape. But, even if you aren’t quite ready to make a leap into planning, they are sympathetic and they really GET IT.

          Sending you and your little ones a big hug.

            • I love what you wrote. It’s beautiful Fedupchump. “No words to describe the joy you bring me” is absolutely fine to say and makes total sense to me. He’s jealous like a little brat man-child. And they use these criticisms to make you doubt yourself, your sanity, judgement, your intelligence, and how people perceive you. It’s absolutely abuse. I’m sad reading what you wrote because it seems like you believe what he said. I know how this feels. He would see a picture posted on social media of me and then bombard me with texts “did you lose your mind?” I’d say no lol im working everything is fine… why? “You are so f@cking strange! You look mentally ill. Wtf is wrong with you?! You are an embarrassment to me and our family. I’m trying to work and I need to be interrupted by my buddy showing me your account like… is she sick in the head?! Then I need to explain to everyone that my wife is a whack job!” I cried. Stared at the picture confused what was wrong with it? It’s just me smiling with my pet. Asked 10 people if I’m mentally ill and out of touch. All said no he’s a son of a bitch. People don’t usually understand unless they have been with a spouse like this just how damaging this is over time. The financial abuse is sickening as well and I hate your husband. I hope you get away from him very soon. 💜hugs and strength

        • Dear FedUpChump,
          All you are going through and you lovingly composed a note to your toddler son. Your words to him are perfect. They are from your heart, and they are private, between you and your son.
          Please don’t let that horrible excuse of a father take this from you.
          When you write about this slim ball of a poor excuse of a human being YOU are so far above him.
          I, as other Chumps in CN love you and your precious children and we all hope somehow you can get away from him.
          He is toxic.
          YOU, dear lady are mighty.
          I wish I could hug you in person, please always remember we are your Family who are always here for you!
          ❤️

          Xxxxxxx
          Peacekeeper

          • I was married to a man like this one years ago. Having experience as my cruel tutor I would like to urge you to remember a few strategies:
            1) Don’t ever let your guard down.
            2)If he is acting nice, he has a plan in place to hurt you and he needs a breach in your defensiveness.
            3)Get him fixed. Save future spouses and yourself and other kids from his toxic treatment. This will also ensure your children will not be even more shortchanged by his future family planning or lack thereof. A vasectomy is your friend in so many ways.

            4) don’t cut him any slack, kindness or mercy in the divorce and financial settlements, no matter how much he whines and cries, because he’s likely just putting on a show, has way more money and assets than you know about, and just wants to screw you and your kids over.
            5)don’t volunteer any info about yourself or your plans because he will go out of his way to sabotage them.
            6)you have to deal with him like you deal with a dangerous potentially deadly animal. your focus has to be on getting you and your kids to safety. Once there, never let your guard down with him because he will look for any opportunity to cause harm. these sorts of people feed on your pain like a tick feeds on blood.
            They will use your kindness against you.
            One more:
            keep a journal.

            Best wishes to you.

        • I love what you wrote to your son, and your son will always understand your good intentions. this “man” sounds envious of your unique and beautiful relationship with your child. keep being their mom, thats your only responsibility. sending love.
          x

  • Today’s post and thread are a good reminder. I’ve been spending too much time again lately fantasizing about confronting Douchebag OM and/or telling his wife and/or reporting him to his employer, since virtually all of the affair happens on company time and over company email and phone. I know my energy is better spent elsewhere. And it’s past the point of stopping the affair—he’s in, I’m out, so confronting him would only be for my own satisfaction, which I’d likely not get. Fascinating (and maddening) that more of my outrage to date has been aimed at Douchebag than at the person who betrayed me, rejected me, and blew up our family. But I suppose there’s more at stake emotionally if I see my wife for who she is and react accordingly. I expect that’ll happen in time, though. Bleah.

    — HeChump

    • His wife deserves to know. I hope you tell her. If not right at this moment then sometime in the not too distant future.

    • He, I think you know yourself well. Easier to hate the enemy at the gates than the enemy in your bed to whom you showed your throat. Wishing you peace as you sort all that out.

  • FedUpChump,
    Similar thing happened to me twice–both CheaterX and ex-boyfriend post-separation groomed co-workers to replace me before I even knew that not everything was ok in Oz. I had even asked if there was another woman in the picture while attached to ex-boyfriend who lied to me. Ironic that a few months after leaving me, ex-boyfriend tells me that he is ‘trying to be a better person.’ Lot of good that does me/my family. How is telling you that he behaves better (more loyal, honest, respectful) for the woman he left you for supposed to make you feel better? How do you deal with the sadness, anger, envy, jealousy, and fatigue of being sane custodial parent when you are the one who permanently loses the chair in this ‘game’ of musical chairs (becomes permanently single while cheater/liar and new partner blissfully ride off into the sunset)?

    • The crazy making is insane. Our intuition screams at us that something’s wrong. It would punch us in the face if it could. But I think that we can’t face what we already subconsciously know until we can. In past relationships, it seems that every time I felt something was “off”, I was right. Even if it came to light long after the relationship was over.

    • If he’s already “trying” (not doing), this better person thing won’t last. That sunset won’t look pretty for too long.

  • After I came home early from a solo backpacking trip (I had WANTED it to be the two of us, since he complained about us never spending time together, but HE was TOO BUSY!), I saw her boots in the entry (I had been shopping with her when she bought the boots. I thought of her as a close friend). Then he came into the kitchen half-dressed and frantic, so I knew what was going on (I have always hoped he about ripped his dick off in his hurry to pull out and get dressed). I left the house and told him to get her the hell out, and then to get HIMSELF the hell out.

    After they left I came back home and he called saying SHE wanted to talk to ME. Stupid me agreed. They came back to the house – what a disaster! She told me not to give him an ultimatum, for she was SURE he’d leave me rather than give her up. She said she had tried to resist his come-ons but he was persistent (another friend told me later how she bragged about seducing him against his resistance). She told me he had gotten her pregnant twice (one miscarriage, one abortion), because she hating the feeling of condoms. She told me that he had admitted another affair to her (he cheated on HER, TOO!), and so she completely understood how much pain I was in! She told me the affair had gone on for nine years, and that the only place they ever had sex was in our bed.

    Each statement she made was another ice-pick through my eyes.

    No, it’s NOT a good idea to talk to the AP.

    • OMG she sounds like a complete psycho-bitch. To be honest the way I read the things she said, is it’s just scattergun, just casting out anything and everything she thinks might get under your skin. Good luck to your STBX with such a fine catch.

  • I wanted to. I fantasized about how I would embarrass the hell out of them by letting her family know about the winner she picked and the winner she was. But one day my daughter put it all in perspective for me. We were getting our makeup on sharing the bathroom mirror and she just said “well mom his new girlfriend gets to clean his shit off the toilet seat now” I never really thought of that. At first I thought they would be so happy together and everything would be roses and champagne. But after my daughter opened my eyes I realized they were going to now see the worst of each other too, not just the “perfect” parts. So when i start getting all depressed I imagine her scrubbing his shit stains off the toilet seat and it makes me feel so much better

  • I def did this, made a right fool of myself and looked like a crazyperson.This AP didn’t know the full story and I also did it primarily to hurt my cheater. I did what I set out to do, and while it may have been stupid, I found it pretty satisfying at the time. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have even bothered, but back then I was still hurt and wanted to hurt him back. What I didn’t realize back then was that his sleazy nature was already very well known in his workplace; these idiots really do dig their own graves, you don’t have to pick up the shovel yourself.

  • CBO and Unknown,

    Agreed that they see those sexually satisfying them as interchangeable objects and a means to an end (pun intended).

    My X paid $300./hour for each of them over years from secret retirement funds; stealing well over $100k from me. Phone records showed hours and hours of telephone calls, texting and data exchange. E-mail showed Craigslist, Backpage “escort” messages.

    Since we were married, living in a community property and no-fault state, all was lost as he claimed the “massages” were for therapeutic reasons and found a quack Chiropractor to retroactively (2 years later) diagnosis shoulder and back issues. It was my word against his at the end of the day.

    While I was fighting highly aggressive cancer I hired a forensic attorney to “discover” his secret accounts. I paid many thousands of dollars in legal fees and lost all “sunk” costs for prostitute payments.

    Due to my having cancer, X had to pay 1/2 my legal fees. While expensive for me, at a time I could ill afford, it was worth it and it was even more expensive for X at around $500./BJ or ? One masseuse in particular he frequented 1-3x/week.

    Early on I fantasized about turning them into the authorities, going all Thelma and Louise at the massage parlors and dragging the women/their patrons out of the dark, dingy rooms into the light of day and into a police officer’s car. It unfortunately wouldn’t have made any difference as many of these women are right back at it and there is always another entitled narcissist wanting their services. I was also (after almost 40 years of working full time) dependent on maintenance due to cancer so needed him to be able to work. I now donate to causes that are working to stop human trafficking and provide safe shelters for workers.

    On DD, coming up on 2 years, also in the same week of my cancer diagnosis, I kicked him out for good. I never contacted his “favorite married masseuse”, now live-in girlfriend and new mother to “supposedly” his newborn son. He’s 55 and she’s in her 30’s. True Wuv don’t you know? Neither of them are worth sacrificing my healing, peace, dignity or integrity and the proof I had wouldn’t hold up in court.

    Instead of wasting my time or energy on contact or confrontation, I lawyered up and divorced him.

    Due to specific case law in my state, I was given a fair settlement from what was left after scorched earth fire bombings (narcissistic rage isn’t pretty).

    I took away his kibble stream, store front and wouldn’t talk with him. How dare I do that to him and I had cancer on top of that? What’s a poor narc to do? Whaaaaaaaaa…

    They can have one another; I do feel sorry for the innocent child. I also feel bad for my son as it’s his Dad.

    I also kicked cancer (2 years of my life). Still in “watch mode” part of treatment but feeling like I’m on the other side”. I’m enjoying a cheater free sweet life with son, grandchildren, integrity and self-worth.

    If I had known I could feel this good, I would have kicked him to the curb on first DD rather than waste more years on RIC therapy, fake remorse, false promises of change, covert stealing marital funds and compulsive lies.

    I happily and religiously remain no contact with disordered X and his masseuse girlfriend. As I hear, things aren’t all rosy in TruWuvville with spit-up, dirty diapers, sleepless nights and low energy. Image management is much harder these days and sex likely scarce. Real life is driving the Karma Bus 🚌; beep beep.

  • I made the mistake of contacting OW. Today I am agonising about whether he will give her all the love and affection he didn’t give me…

    D Day was four months ago. I will never forget that agonising moment when I saw OW’s messages on his phone when we were on holiday. We spent the last day crying and dealing with the fallout. In the end I asked him to walk the talk (he said he cared about me). He messaged her in front of me and said he would not speak to her anymore. I was content, because it made me feel that we were a team and she was an intruder who had temporarily led him astray. Secure in the knowledge that I mattered to him, I messaged her to tell her to have some shame and to ask how she would feel if someone did this to her. I was shaken but felt this was just a mere bump in our relationship. Unsurprisingly, she emailed no later than a few hours after to ask him if she should respond to me, playing the victim.

    And even more unsurprisingly he reached out to her again afterwards. He had no excuse for breaking his promise… But I was/ am heartbroken. I had given him my all. My family had almost thrown me out of the house because he was from a different religion but I fought with them for him.

    Now, I imagine them laughing at me. They were a team and I was the outsider.

    I am (a) agonising that he will give her everything and make her happy like he never did for me;
    (b) unable to cope with the pain that he wrote off his7 year friendship and 4 year relationship with me. I feel discarded. Insecure. Worthless. It hurts.

    • No he won’t give her everything and make her happy. He clearly isn’t that kind of person and neither is she.

    • DidntSee – the short answer is no, he won’t.

      Those of us on Chump Nation who are many years past D Day can assure you of that.

      He actually has poor character, and so does she. Neither of them has any idea of what love really is.

      YOU, on the other hand, did nothing wrong. You are not worthless. This is the time to start working on YOUR future.

  • Four years ago, before I knew of CL. I kicked Ex out of our home on D-Day. He wouldn’t even tell me OW’s name. All I knew were the 100x calls to her on our phone family plan and he’d admitted he was cheating. He wouldn’t tell me her name to “protect” her he said. After he left I easily found her name as I looked at his desk, where she had brazenly mailed him a mushy post card right here to our house! The next day I looked her up on LinkedIn from my office and ten minutes later Ex called me screaming at me for “accessing her profile,” making it sound like I had hacked her account when I just wanted to know her fucking name and what she looked like.

    Two days later I composed an email to her simply asking what was going on, and describing the damage i though was going to be done to Ex’s and my 16 year relationship. To be sure I was appropriate I had a mutual friend of Ex and me (who later turned Switzerland and pro-Ex) read it to vet it then I sent it. Crickets and OW never responded.

    A couple weeks later during one of our discussions (read, gaslighting and blameshifting sessions), Ex laughed in my face and said “it was so weird for you to write to her!” I said why did she answer and he said, “SHE does what SHE wants to do!” with this huge, seemingly appreciative smile on his face at how cold and calculating his new love was.

    He hoovered and manipulated for about six months which I now realize was mainly a tactic to soften me up into giving him more money in the settlement (he lost that legal battle too, in the end got almost nothing); someone said it above. I was of use to him until OW was of more use to him. As it stands, I went NC with him at six months, at 8 months stumbled on proof of at least one prior affair, contacted his prior girlfriends and found out he cheated on both of them, and also kept in contact with them all while he was living with and buying a house with me. Gradually I’ve seen him for who he is: an abusive, manipulative, selfish, dishonest parasite. So glad he’s out of my life… he will never hurt me again.

    In the end I don’t really regret sending the email to OW because her reaction made me realize that she just didn’t care, and that Ex had also filled her head with lies, playing himself as the sad sausage victim needing rescue. She rescued a flaming turd.

  • I usually agree with CL but not this time.

    My ex-wife destroyed our family by sleeping with my first cousin.

    That was about six years ago and I have yet to cross paths with him.

    First of all, I wouldn’t take my ex back if she came gift wrapped in $1 billion cash.

    I would love to give a serious beat down to my cousin on general principle alone.

    Truthfully, the only thing that stops me is that it’s against the law and it would fuck up my life if I did do it.

    In a World where AP’s get what they deserve I would kick his ass until he begged for mercy, and then stop. But then I would tell him that I’ll be back for more. He won’t know when or what day, but will have to live the rest of his life wondering when I’m going to show up again.

    I literally see nothing wrong morally with that scenario. This guy contributed to fucking up my kids lives and change the course of all our history.

    If society somehow manages to fall apart, that I’m going to pay him a little visit.

  • Fleeing sense of aliveness, or as mine said, “desire to be his most vibrant self.”

    Or crabs.

    LOL!

  • Hmmm …. I confronted the OW. She was a member of his gang of friends that came to our home to play board games. I had my suspicions and over a couple of months kept questioning her behaviour, only to be lied to and batted off.
    On DD I asked for the truth and he admitted. I said “she owes me an apology and I will contact her”. He immediately scampered off to warn her. NOTE: he didn’t try to stop me and protect her!
    I messaged her on FB, saying “come here and apologise” and she did! Total power play on my behalf and she came!
    She was in tears, apologised profusely, told me that she had called it off about 1 month earlier cause she knew it was wrong. I gave her the “woman to woman” line of “you knew he was lying and cheating on me, what made you think he was a worthwhile catch? You’ve got to lift your standards for yourself”.
    At the end I asked her what is she going to do to heal? She said she was going to back to ask guidance from her Bible Study group!! (Geez Louise – my head fell off!) Was she 33 or 13?

  • Welp, I am 90% sure of the APs identity. I couldn’t care less anymore. She’s worthless as a partner – no loyalty, insecure, self centered… he’s welcome to her.

    The only temptation I have is that I could probably make both him and STBX lose their jobs, & ethically it might even be the right thing to do but for my closeness to the situation.

    I’ve alluded to the details of my wife’s affair being worse than I’ve described before… well, right about when my wife started the affair, she got a new job. It was “the career opportunity of a lifetime”. She had previously applied for a senior management position and gotten turned down. Then a guy who i’d never heard her talk about before, had reached out and created a job specifically for her – with double the salary and a team of 60 to manage. I told her, “I don’t think you’ve ever mentioned O.J. before”. “Oh, haven’t I? I get on really well with him”. He’s now her new boss.

    The thing is, he and she both work in local government. This is taxpayer’s money he has used to create a job for his lover. If I was completely outside the situation I’d see it was wrong and not hesitate to call it out. All I’d need to do is call up the local newspaper. Given i’m inside the situation though, I don’t want to be seen to go down a route of spite – they will both get caught out in due course, I am sure.

    The worse thing for me was the personal betrayal though – I turned down a job offer of my own because we had to decide between her ‘career defining opportunity’ and moving country for something that wasn’t such a great step up for me. I was gearing up to be the support my wife would need for the next 6 months.

    • That is the worst part of all of this. We do so much for them. We support them and put their needs and life goals first and instead of appreciating all that we do for them, they betray us in the worst possible way and make us feel like nothing. They really do suck. As others have described it, they are pod people.

      Hang in there. There is a good chance that karma will catch up to those two.

  • If IT was big enough I’d put a ribbon on it now. (Getting closer to meh, maybe?) Confront her? Not worth my time.

  • I did this mistake – asked STBX if I could talk to schmoopie. He was all too glad to play the ‘mediator’. I sent schmoopie a message and STBX went to read that message with her. Schmoopie even said to him if she gets hurt by my words will he comfort her? Haha.. Ohh boy I cringe now as I type this how pathetic I was back then. They really have no shame and have empty holes for hearts. Glad that I encountered CL and CN after that as I had extended the gift of NC to them both.

  • I remembered something else she said to me “a marriage cannot end just because of this, it was neaningless”….oh great! Thanks for that and actually its not up to YOU to tell anyone else what is acceptable in their marriage or not. I think she must do it a lot and because she doesnt think anything of it, it must mean the hurt partner shouldnt. Ffs what a cunt!!!

  • Hey my stbx actually emailed his OWhore (aka ho-worker) crying that I’d accused him of destroying two families, ours and hers – and apologizing to her for that. Oblivious to her own role in the dual-dismantle, she blithely emailed him back that oh no, her family had been destroyed long ago…but with stbx’s help and the love and support of her kin, she is doing great, thank you very much!

    I wanted for the longest time to confront this bitch but eventually, with some 2x4s from a sister chump, I had to accept that she, same as stbx, doesn’t give a fuck. If she did, she wouldn’t have blown up her own family. They both apparently excel at Impression Management and all tha attendant qualities befitting a Narcissist, so in this respect they are a perfect match.

    They sure are special, these cheaters….!

  • When I first caught the lying pervert on sex chat lines years ago- I actually called the numbers and warned those skanky hoes to stop associating with my husband (father of 2 young children back then).

    One responded: This is a business. Men who call here pay us to talk to them.
    Another responded: “Honey’ “ya’ll need to understand my job is to help lonely men.”

    This last d-day the OW (plural) were an unsightly, unwashed looking plethora of web cam hoes. All looking like they needed their next heroin fix.

  • The OW typically goes on an ego trip after having pried/lured the cheater away from his wife and children.

    She’s proud of her achievement and she sees nothing wrong with it. She looks down upon the betrayed wife as lessor woman than herself. A loser- a drippy, dreary, non sexual loser.
    She believes all the lies the cheater told her about his wife. That crazy bitch! She sees herself as superior to the crazy bitch with no sex appeal.

    With that being said……..confronting the OW is not worth one minute of your time. We already got her number.

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