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Chump Lady on Orgies

mrNiceGuyAn alert chump once sent me an article in Vogue, “That Time I Went to a Sex Party” by “Slutever” Karley Sciortino. 

As it appeared in Vogue, realize right now that whomever they’re writing about is younger, slimmer, and better dressed than you. So it stands to reason that the sex is more fabulous as well.

“It’s the best sex party in New York, with the most fun, attractive crowd,” Sciortino’s friend reassures her. Invitation only!

Skeptical if she can get her freak on “amidst a crowd of ‘roughly 100 people'”, she’s goes forward relying on her friend Anne’s fabulous quotient.

“I trusted Anne, because she knows a lot about this stuff. See, Anne and her husband are in an open marriage: They’re happy, successful, attractive, deeply in love, and they also get to sleep with whomever they want. How unfair.”

All the Happy, Successful, Attractive, Deeply in Love people are doing it!

So right there I know I could never be on the invite list. I’ve already made a name for myself as a dorktacular, squidgy, middle-aged woman who enjoys monogamy (and other retro pleasures like LP records, dial-up, and butter churning). Can you imagine what the vetting process for the guest list must look like?

“Janet? No, Janet’s out. Unsightly scar. Bob? Oh no. I wouldn’t fancy him on toast. How about Alastair? A Libertarian, but you can get past that considering his six-pack abs.”

You’d have to find 100 perfect specimens who feel comfortable having sex in herds. Who are these people? Personally, it sounds like the stuff of nightmares. You know that one — where you have a presentation to give and you’re in a large room of people and suddenly realize you’re naked? Doesn’t everyone have that nightmare? Along with the math exam you forgot to study for?

I can’t imagine at any point in my life being comfortable being naked in a room full of a hundred people. Not even when I was 18 years old, weighed 138 pounds (I’m 5’10”), my breasts were perky, and you could bounce quarters off my flat stomach. UNH-UH would I do it. At my most body beautiful, I was utterly convinced of my hideousness. (At comfortable middle age, I rock the squidgy.)

Okay, and that’s just getting naked. Having sex in front of other people? Who isn’t racked with self doubt? I mean most people don’t even do cocktail parties without social anxiety. Sex? Does everyone get high first? Are they checking out their neighbors and worrying that they seem to be having more fun? Or have better techniques? Or larger dicks? Or bigger boobs?

Sciortino describes the crowd as nice, ordinary, pleasant people, albeit intimidatingly attractive.

Walking into the hotel, I was slightly intimidated by how many beautiful, well-dressed people there were. (Anne was right.) For the first two hours, people mostly danced, drank the free booze, and ate canapes. Many of the guests were clearly already friends or “playmates,” and the atmosphere was surprisingly classy, even reserved. It wasn’t until midnight that the suits and cocktail dresses began to come off. Suddenly the many beds, couches, and bathtubs were filled with people going at it.

I just don’t understand the logistics of a hundred splendid New Yorkers having group sex. Isn’t anyone fumbling for their diaphragm? Is no one having awkward condom conversations with total strangers? Don’t they worry about STDs? Do they pass out hand sanitizer? Want a shower? Am I weird for thinking of these things?

To me an orgy just seems like a giant “pick me” dance. Can you imagine how ghastly it would be to go to an orgy and not be picked? Clearly, they must try to ameliorate this concern by closely vetting the guest list for only the most perfectly attractive, successful, deeply in love sorts of swingers — but what if you had cabbage for lunch and were feeling rather bloated that day? What if among the perfect specimens you were in the lower tier of perfection? Can you be an orgy wallflower?

Personally, I like my intimacies intimate, but I don’t want to judge. If this really works for people and they’re as open and respectful as Sciortino says, well, God bless them. I hope they don’t catch anything.

I was willing to leave it there. Slutever, I concede your fabulousness! But then, as is often the case with these sensational polyamory articles, she had to go and slam monogamy.

Many of my past relationships have been tainted by insecurity, jealousy, cheating, and lying, often fueled by bad communication and secrecy.

By comparison, the couples at the party seemed open and honest in a way that many “normal” couples aren’t. Let’s not kid ourselves: adultery is rife. In a way, the socially accepted norm of monogamy requires lying. It’s almost like monogamous couples actually prefer to be lied to rather than deal with the uncomfortable reality of extramarital attraction. With nonmonogamy, you’re admittedly entering into risky territory. But with ground rules and communication, the result could be a more honest, fulfilling relationship. And since keeping jealousy in check and feeling secure can be the hardest parts of maintaining a relationship for me, I began to wonder if nonmonogamy could teach me something on a deeper level that monogamy couldn’t—if perhaps these orgy people were really onto something.

Monogamy requires lying? No CHEATING requires lying. Polyamorists don’t have the market cornered on “honesty.” Monogamists do honesty as well. As a self-professed cheater, apparently YOU don’t do honesty well. That’s on you, not monogamy.

I know this is really hard for your bleached blonde, power-suited, edgy sex columnist self to realize, but some people can actually DO monogamy. No really! And even more mind-blowing — they have honest, fulfilling relationships without boffing strangers at sex parties. They even have mind-blowing sex too, but I’m not going to tell you the particulars, because hey, I like to keep these things private and not share them with 100 people in a Hilton suite.

It’s almost like monogamous couples actually prefer to be lied to rather than deal with the uncomfortable reality of extramarital attraction.

Bullshit. Extramarital attraction is not cheating. Don’t muddy the waters. Stepping out on someone is cheating — crossing that boundary. I got cheated on — and I did not “prefer” to be lied to. I preferred to not be cheated on by my ex-husband and have him make unilateral decisions about my marriage, health, and finances. I’m not deluding myself about my ability to do monogamy. You’re honest about your polyamorous lifestyle? Everyone is on the same page? Great. Now do me the favor of respecting MY lifestyle — monogamy.

It’s this really exclusive party I’m having. Only the very best quirky, intelligent, middle-aged person is coming. (He has all his hair AND a useless master’s degree in comparative literature!) Invitation only! To my husband. The rest of you aren’t invited.

Monogamy works for me. Whatever Slutever.

This column ran previously. I have an early morning mammogram appointment, which reminds me — all you people out there with breasts — GET A MAMMOGRAM. If I can squish my boob into a vise to prevent cancer, you can too. Do it. 

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • So what does that open honest conversation look like at this party? Does anyone ever say “oh, God no! Not in a million years with you!” Or even “You think you’re touching me, you got another thing coming!” Or is this all made up? Or maybe it’s mostly people in their 20’s with a few older folks thrown in here and there who think they are so very cosmopolitan for being “sexually free.” I want you all to picture the long game here. What will this sexually free, radically honest group look like in ten years? Fifteen years? If that’s their litmus test (looks and clothes) the group will shrink drastically over time.

    All I have to really go on is my experience which is this…. My gain a life, post cheater stage of existence may be the best ever. I am mentally healthy for the first time in my life. I invest in my child with greater ease and efficiency now that I am relaxed and comfortable. I have an honest relationship with another human being. Boyfriend is a good guy who is gainfully employed, squidgy, and can cook up a fabulous anything. We communicate a lot, about all sorts of things and from our conversations I can tell you the most attractive thing we see in anyone else has nothing to do with how fit or young they look or how well dressed they are. It has to do with what kind of person they are. Are they kind, helpful, smart, fun, witty, happy for the most part and tuned into the world around them? That, right there is attractive. You can wrap that in any package you want it’s still going to be attractive. It’s what we look for in friends. It’s what we admire in other people. Yet, it doesn’t make us want to sleep with them. Integrity Matters.

    • Gee, my STBX (D-day 12/19/17) was into orgies as one of his sex addiction deviations.

      When I shoved the whole (sex addict) shit sandwich back at him (I didn’t know until weeks later it was sex addiction), he declared “he wasn’t happy” and “he didn’t like the person I’d become”. Well, when you have chronic fatigue, tick infections and feel like dying it’s almost impossible to be helpful, fun, witty or happy. The illness and world as I knew it had changed with the infections. So I wouldn’t even use “kind, helpful, smart, fun, witty, happy for the most part ” as guide posts to “judge” folks because so many folks have invisible illnesses. I realize this is not where you’re coming from, but it triggered me so I had to post to give an opposing view.

      He started his addictions when I was at my worst health wise and right after I’d lost the best job I’d ever had. Talk about kicking someone when they are down.

      • nveragain, you are at the very start of a long, arduous journey. I’m sorry for it but you are in good company here. Go easy on yourself – it is so true, you can not be “helpful, fun, witty or happy” when you are physically suffering and my suspicion is that you were not be treated well by your husband even before D-Day. I would bet you knew something was wrong with him on some level. Perhaps it even contributed to your illness (I’m not a doctor, just well aware of the impact of stress and the depth of our own denial at times).

        The good news is you have found the right place. Take care of you first and check in often. I can promise you there is life on the other side – it just takes a while to get there.

        • If I’m completely honest, now that I look back yes there were lots of red flags. But because I never had anyone to model with healthy relationships are like and didn’t really have anybody to discuss and compare normal and not normal, I really felt that they were just little things in a marriage that you would overlook because you needed to look at the bigger picture. And the bigger picture looked really good for many many years. at least until I lost my high-paying job with great benefits and perks and then got very ill. Then I was no longer of use to him and he started the devaluation phase. On D day I was discarded.

          • Nveragain,

            Not sure if you will see this post. I’m so sorry you went through – ALL of that.

            I can empathize when you said: ‘But because I never had anyone to model with healthy relationships are like and didn’t really have anybody to discuss and compare normal and not normal, I really felt that they were just little things in a marriage that you would overlook because you needed to look at the bigger picture’.

            I didn’t either, and put up with an awful marriage for over 30 years. And – convinced myself that the red flags and the glaring issues were something to just endure. After all, no one is perfect – especially me 🙂 !! I *almost* ruined my entire life, but finally had the courage to get out of that farce.

            I hope that you get better.

            • Thanks. I feel silly looking back. How did I feel certain things were ok. He isolated me and my adult special needs son. My son will be having a friend over for the first time in 17 yrs now that the Porn Star is out of the house. I hope to invite a friend over soon too – I have had [one] friend over in 17 yrs. I am an introvert and I am private but I sure as hell wanted friends over, for myself and my son, many times over the years and he would get angry and ask “for what”. What a douchebag.

              I told my sister some things this weekend and she was shocked. She asked me why I never told her those things before. Well…we were a married couple and who wants to talk bad about the man they choose for a husband – image management!

              • Sweetie that happened to me too – I made so many excuses for him thinking ‘That’s just him’ and ‘That’s how he’s coping’ and it’s only now that I’m realising how much of my own self and my ideals I allowed to be compromised. I didn’t want to change him because that’s the person I fell in love with, I’m now seeing that I fell in love with potential and not with a real person. I don’t see that as wasting 23 years though because at first we had good times, and I’ve learned a lot. In fact, whatever his real thoughts and feelings were about me and however we’ve ended up, I know that I have been and am truly capable of such deep love, devotion and appreciation of another human being. Even if that person turned out eventually to be a twat, I have seen a part of myself that I love. During the discard, self-blame and unintentional gaslighting stage I was convinced that I didn’t love him, didn’t love my children, nobody loved me, is love even a thing? But looking back on what I’ve done this past 18 months, I deeply respect my own responses and actions. So glad I have self-love now and that’s a huge part of Meh. nveragain you are on the right path! XXX

              • Thanks Artist. I was real for our 30 yrs together. He was not. I spackled and spackled and spackled and spackled. I had hopium during the marriage. I always hoped his next job would make the difference for him, or the next house, or my next job, more money, vacation, retirement…

                I have to stop projecting his declaration of “I wasn’t happy” onto myself. In true narc fashion, he makes it sound like he wasn’t happy with me. But it is now becoming apparent to me, as I learn about character disorders, that he has a character disorder. It makes me very, very sad because like you say there were many many good years for us. And when I think of those great years, I fall apart. And then wreckonciluation flashes through my head. And I think “Oh it’s not his fault he can’t help it”. But when I think of him in the present, I rage and fall into despair.
                How dare he? Who is this man? Where did my husband go? Who does this to their family?

                For a few weeks I’ve been claiming I don’t have a support system. But now that I’m actually reaching out to people and letting them know what has happened, people have been very supportive. So it makes me sad that I let those relationships fall by the wayside all these years because I made him the most important thing in my life day in and day out.

                The irony of it all is, his reasoning was that I didn’t appreciate him enough and all the things that he did. He felt responsible for too much and he did it all. I guess he’s entitled to feel what he wants to feel. I know I felt differently… I made sure to always reinforce all the positive that he did to boost his self-esteem and to truly be thankful for all that he did. Which is why in the past five years I kept recommending marriage counseling; because I saw we were not agreeing on how we viewed the state of the marriage anymore. But he repeatedly rejected marriage counseling. What do you do then? I should’ve gotten individual counseling for myself. That thought never even occurred to me.

                And then I console myself with the thought that it wasn’t our marriage that was the problem. He has this deep empty hole in him that he just can’t fill with anything. He doesn’t realize that he had a good life – couldn’t appreciate what he had. He always had to compare himself to everyone else, always thinking they had everything and he had nothing. I could not convince him that everybody has the same trials and tribulations that we had – – somehow, he was destined to be greater than this drudgery of daily life.

          • You’re speaking my life. Things were mostly fine (with some obvious-to-me now red flags and a fair amount of “marriage requires sacrifice” mentality) until I became of slightly less use to him because I decided to pursue my higher education and stop tolerating some of that marital sacrificial stuff. After about 30 seconds of that he was looking elsewhere. We have different value systems, and that became very clear at the first moment he stopped being the center of my immediate gaze. So much for reciprocity.

            My sister also was shocked by what I kept from her, but at the time I was just doing what I thought needed to happen to keep my family together. Boy was I wrong. And…never again. Here’s hoping it’s never again for you too.

            • It’s really sad because we knew that we had many differences between us when we first met, but then again we had a lot of the same goals. Get good jobs, climb the ladder, have a nice house, put my son through school, travel and retire together. It’s all the shit inbetween that he didn’t take into consideration. Apparently it’s really fucking OK for him to discard me as easily as it was to discard wedding vows.

              I came across all the cards that he’s given me over the years and went through them and I was shocked to see how for the past 5 to 10 years his cards all professed his love for me for better or for worse, our future together, talking about all the good times we’ve had. I read them to him and asked him why the hell he gave them to me if he was so unhappy. It’s like talking to a wall… Absolutely no response.

              What is it with the no response anyways? Are they really so now in the void of all emotion that they can’t formulate any answers?

      • He’s not addicted. He’s mentally ill. Stay away from the C$ATs to live an authentic Cluster B free life. The therapists aren’t any better than their clients. Join Sisterhood of Support for the reality of “sex addiction.”

        • I know there such a debate as to whether there such a thing as sex addiction or not. My first therapist said there was and my second therapist is saying there is and my sister who is a pastoral counselor is saying there is. However I’m not convinced because of what I know about my husband. He was clean for two years and has Easley gone Into abstinence the past two months. Do you think I should change therapist based on the fact that she believes in sex addiction?

          I will definitely look up the sisterhood resource and tag heard about the CSATS therapy. Somebody had told me to make sure that the therapist he god what is CSATS certified. The psychologist I found for him is not certified, but my husband likes him a lot so I haven’t said anything. He’s on his own now. We never fight for the marriage and was never remorseful. I’ve been reading more on the cluster B disorders … I should just give up reading up on sex addiction and read up more on character disorders.

          • I think that the main problem is that debating whether infidelity is due to a sex addiction or not is missing the point, whether you believe in it or not. However you view it, to act on it and then lie about it (which is at the heart of it) makes it abusive. That makes it unacceptable – and reason to not tolerate it. It still doesn’t make it acceptable – which is what the label is used for.
            As you have also experienced, it is also only a small part of the abuse – isolating you to such an extent is clearly controlling and emotionally and psychologically abusive, and been going on for many years. Like most of us on here, though, it creeps up on us, we spackled, were gaslighted for years, blamed ourselves etc. There is no need to blame yourself any longer – nor to absolve your abusive STBX (on many levels) of his behaviour anymore either. It sounds like you have had a very hard time but that already there are small glimpses of a better life without him. Good luck to you and your son X

            • Exactly. And in speaking with people in my support system, that’s what I keep coming back to… Whether there is such a thing as sex addiction or not, there were many points along the way that he had agency to make the right choices and he chose all the wrong choices. When I look at all the evidence of what he’s done, which is just the tip of the iceberg, I know that I will Nver understand why or how…… But I know I deserve better.

              However, I hope this doesn’t become an issue or focal point in my work with my therapist. I know her parting words at our first session were not worry about him but to work on myself. But her profile lists sex addiction as one of her specialties, which is why I chose her but that was before I realized I didn’t believe in sex addiction.

              For me, it’s not so much that I worry about how I will get along without him, but that my brain cannot reconcile the life that I knew with him in the double life that he was leading. And in the true Noric fashion he makes it seem like he didn’t realize what he was doing and didn’t think about the consequences. But when I read the sex addiction literature for the 12 step programs, their tenets clearly describe how well aware they are of what they are doing and that they do feel guilt and shame. But my STBX has not wanted to discuss barely any of it. Just no relational conversation.

              I’m OK, I’ll be OK. I must keep telling myself this.

              • I really think you and/or your therapist hit the nail in the head—your work now should be on you…why you didn’t see the red flags, why you accepted his behavior, why you enabled or ignored or minimized your needs, etc, so that it never happens again. Of course there will be a morbid curiosity about why he is who he is, and I’m a fan of indulging in those inquiries to a point…cause we’re human and we want to work things out. But, as CL asserts, ultimately you’ll never really know and it becomes a distraction toward personal healing and growth. So, I encourage you to set a kind of timeline on your research into him, and then move past it.

                FYI this will inevitably involve shutting others down when they want to discuss it with you or want to express their rage toward him, once they know what happened. I’ve taken to saying something like “I understand you’re shocked and angry, but ya know, the best way you can support me is to support my goal of improving myself…and figuring him out does not reach that goal.

              • Yes, I agree, a little bit more research into disordered characters. I got the two books by the Dr CL references. But I agree, only to work with life therapist to fix my picker.

                However, it kills me that I can’t talk this through with him, figure this out, help fix it, help fix the marriage, understand where this all came from. It’s just all so frustrating

      • nvragain – I’ve been questioning whether “sex addiction” is a real thing or an acceptable label for self indulgent behavior.
        I’m against the “you can’t blame me, I have an addiction!” for destroying their family. I wonder how many “sex addicts” are unmarried, or all of them married/in committed relationship, therefore needing a label.

        • Born Free: I just received the therapy notes from the days I was in “partners therapy” for my ex-husbands “sex addiction.” The therapist lied in the notes. No where does it mention my husbands “addiction” but says I was being seen for “relationship betrayal.” For the session when we had the disclosure, she recorded that I was the only participant, even though my ex-husband and his therapist were present for the two hours. And she said the topic was my “family of origin issues.” I have all our texts and emails the week before, the day of and the week after this disclosure session where she and I discuss the process at length, she guides me through the drafting of my “impact letter” response, and takes my questions for the polygrapher. If sex addiction were a real illness, why is this CSAT trained therapist not documenting it? Why is she, who also counsels “addicts” in a special men’s group, including my husband (conflict of interest maybe??) hiding that we were there for his sex addiction related issues? Because it’s a manufactured illness not recognized by the broader mental health community that’s proving to be a lucrative business for these self-certified counselors.
          Every pathological behavior like the compulsive lying and gaslighting is conveniently rolled up into the sex addiction model to keep the partner smoking the hopium pipe. But truly the best is how these therapists tell the partner to not make any major decisions for a year and to not tell anyone about the addiction since they just won’t understand. They know that if the partner did those things they’d be out the therapist’s door and out the marriage immediately.

          • Wow, the therapist sounds like a lying narc too. I wonder if she should be reported for her completely inaccurate account.

            • I’m working on a complaint. Her notes for weeks also included “none” in the Safety Issues field after I’d told her about my ex husband progressing to physical abuse and me having called the police.

          • Most CSATs are themselves “sex addicts”. No, I don’t believe that’s a real thing but they are people who share the same fucked up personality disorder cluster who are “helping” other “sex addicts” and ostensibly their partners. Most of the time, that “help” for partners takes the form of blaming them and expecting them to solve the problem for the “addict” all the while excusing the “addicts” bad behavior as being out of their control or otherwise excusable. I know partners who were told it was their fault for not losing weight, dressing better, not having sex on demand or not being willing to have whatever kinky version of sex the “addict” demanded, or doing really terrible things like wanting to know exactly what their addict partner had been up to, and with whom, and wanting to know if they needed to get tested for STDs. You know, asking questions ABOUT THEIR LIFE that made the “addict” uncomfortable. God forbid the serial cheater experiences any sort of discomfort. Do I sound bitter? I am. This is a particularly heinous and evil subset of the RIC. I was very lucky to have found good resources quickly and avoided CSAT “treatment” for partners but I know many, many women who suffered greatly from this sort of “therapeutic” intervention.

              • My ex saw 3 different therapists on the sex addict journey. I saw 2 different partners therapists, 1 who specializes in partner trauma (the one mentioned earlier). Together we saw 2 couples therapists.

                None of them suggested he had a deeper mental illness and should get a full psychiatric evaluation.

                That’s like going to 7 different doctors and getting the EXACT same diagnosis and treatment plan for an illness for which there’s no specific diagnostic tests.

              • Sadly Geode, there are a lot of women out there who were severely harmed by the SA arm of the RIC and I’m really sorry you were one of them. Don’t even get me started on Patrick Carnes and his ilk. A bunch of sleaze bags making money off of retraumatizing wounded partners. I hate them all.

              • I am so glad I found CL/CN! I was reading all these books up until last week!

                In fact, I just called the psychologist I consulted with last week to ask her if she can still work with me if I don’t believe in the Sex Addict model and definitely don’t want to work with her if she considers me a co-addict!

                Let’s see what she comes back with esp. since she treats sex addicts.

                I fear I will be looking for my third therapist in 2 mths. Geez, I just can’t find a therapist who can help me deal with the shit sandwich of a character disordered STBX. I haven’t gotten any “help” yet since they all want 6 sessions before they can “help” you.

              • Nveragain, you need to forget finding a therapist that deals with sex addiction and find one that deals with trauma. For you, just you. I’d much rather go through three or four therapists to find one good one rather than waste my time with a therapist who is going to take your money for SIX SESSIONS that aren’t even about you!! That is insane. You don’t need help dealing with a character disordered STBX, you need someone to help you deal with the trauma you’ve been through and how to move forward in the way that is best for YOU. If the therapist isn’t willing or able to focus on you then move on.

              • Beth thanks. The current therapist is a psychologist and one of her specialties is trauma. When I initially made contact with her, I made it clear that I was looking for somebody who dealt with trauma, attachment, abandonment and who is familiar with acting out or sex addiction or whatever you wanna call it.

                I did call her today to double check that she wouldn’t put me in the call attic model. Her response was no, she doesn’t really believe in that and as far as sex addiction itself because she told me not to worry about that as well. I think I’m going to go with her for now. However my last therapist wouldn’t commit to what type of therapy she would use with me.

            • I want to roll my eyes when I meet a chump who has been swept up into RCA-Recovering Couples Anonymous. “Here’s a website I can recommend that offers another perspective-chumplady.com”

              • Never again: please be careful with any therapist. The therapist I wrote about earlier sold herself as a trauma specialist who worked only with partners. Until she wanted to host group sessions for the sex addicts. And not only did she doctor my therapy records, she did so when she found out I filed for divorce a full year after I stopped seeing her. I wonder if it had anything to do with my future ex AND his pervy attorney being part of her group?

                Please, please take care in your therapy. You’re extremely vulnerable. If the therapist wants to delve into relationship issues, your family of origin, analyzing how you set boundaries, etc be wary. Your therapist should only focus on helping you manage this shock, take care of yourself and your kids, and protect yourself from further abuse. Those other things can be tackled when you’re stronger and safely away from the perpetrator.

    • Alloutofkibble. Lovely positive vibes ❤️

      In my younger days, I don’t think I could have said “Mentally healthy” without laughing nervously or “beautiful” “competent” “kind” or “intelligent” all qualities we can be proud to strive for now.

      *beautiful is you own definition, not that of Vogue

  • I’m laughing so hard right now imagining this party of fun, sophisticated, attractive couples, wearing expensive designer clothes, mingling, drinking martinis, dancing, releasing their inhibitions.. doing their version of the nae, nae, getting their groove on. Not a pretty picture..

    I don’t know if I’m the only one thinking this, but if you have a 100 naked people in a room I can only imagine what it smells like, 100 people, groping each other, engaged in all types of sex acts, trying to out do each other with their performance, friction, sweat, saliva, body secretions, in addition to other body functions that might be occurring.
    Are they all in one big bundle or separated into couples, or some engaged in threesomes, or groups here and there?
    I’m beginning to feel nauseated at the thought.

    • I personally don’t know anything about these orgie parties but have read about others experiences. For the glamorous once you get in it’s a free for all in that people just engage with each other parts regardless of what is happening elsewhere. The orgy pile is just a buffet of bits. Then there are the nudists camps ~ I was invited to the famous one in S. France. I think all of them are devoid of true bonding / connection. Of course they may think differently because of the sexual endorphins but it is truly no different than a bunch of crack addicts in a crack house.

      • I met someone once who belonged to a nudist camp org. She said no one misbehaves because they are asked to leave. So, what was the deal about nudism then? She said it helps to get past trying to hide your not so perfect body. She said once you have seen a bunch of naked, NORMAL, people you realize you are ok the way you are. It sounds wonderful. No photoshopping, no plastic surgery, just squishy middles and dangly bits that dangle a lot lower with age. I could never do it. It has no interest for me, but doesn’t it sound freeing.
        On the other hand…….there are only so many ways bodies can have sex. So what is there about group sex that appeals? It boggles my mind. I wonder about the guy who had beans for lunch. What about the woman who pees when she giggles? I do not think any of that article rings true. There was a magazine, whose title escapes me, that had wonderful articles about serious issues all written by a fabulous young writer. None of them were true. They even made a movie about it. SHATTERED GLASS. Never buy the shit people write. Ever.

        • But only perfect people who don’t eat beans or pee when they giggle are invited see. As soon as you are found to be imperfect, you are off the list. The wall flowers would probably be off the list as well the next time around, so yes, a giant pick me dance. No thanks. It was bad enough just trying to be good enough for ex. I wouldn’t want to have to try and be good enough for a whole room full of perfectionists. Bleah.

  • Giant pick-me dance!!! LOL. As I read along I was thinking: giant narcissist competion. Narcs will do anything to look good in their standards. All the polyamorists I know are made up of one narc human and one very insecure humanos.

  • I’ve watched documentaries and programs on television on Polyamorists and I agree with you Clearwater’s. Many times it’s the older middle aged, pudgy man with the younger woman.

    While watching these programs I never thought to myself, that looks like fun.

    I remember our neighbors telling us about other couples we know in our community who are into that lifestyle.
    X wondered why they hadn’t invited him since he’s so physically fit and considered himself good looking. He said it “jokingly” but I believe he was actually feeling left out.

    • d-day came for me when my husband started walking around the house naked and said he thought about becoming a nudist to ‘find himself’. Since this was so outside the norm of him I went searching. One of the most hilarious things I found was all the nudist sites in which it was 2 to 1 middle aged men to confused looking younger women.

      These would be women these men would have zero chance with in any other setting.

      My husband became a ‘porn addict’ simply because he got to get compliments on his dick pictures by women whom he paid ten dollars to for every picture they accepted. He really and truly thought himself to turning into this great, wanted, sexy man and I even found a bottle of ‘male enhancement’ pills and thongs he started wearing to make his dick pictures more ‘sexy’. It was both heartbreaking and hilarious.

      • It’s interesting. My STBX had often gone from the shower to the bedroom naked to dress in our lifetime together. But over the last few years, the quality of it changed bit by bit. I kept thinking he now looked like an exhibitionist – getting a kick out of parading around, not a husband on a mission to get dressed. He even started walking a little gay and standing in a gay pose, with his back to me, and bending over to the point of seeing his arsehole.

        Now I can connect the dots – dick picks and other body poses for Craigslist, orgies, BIMWM (bisexual married white male) meet-ups supposedly to meet women but to get women interested has to post as bi…was his explanation but eventually admitted to getting BJs. I now think he’s really gay and hasn’t come out yet and probably won’t ever. I’m so traumatized. STD testing came back negative but I can’t get these pictures/activities out of my head. I can’t function and I have to get my financial statement together. I just can’t function.

        • Nveragain-

          This, and your post above, paint a really difficult picture. Take care of yourself. The things you are facing would individually be overwhelming, but you have them all at once. A physical and emotional assault. They are likely interrelated, perhaps subconsciously (ie chronic fatigue may have something to do with realizing, in a way you weren’t necessarily aware of, who your husband was, not the other way around as he claims). Whatever, disregard that if it’s just not so. My intended point is just to say take care. Seek help if you haven’t already. Someone even just to talk things through with so you can begin to make sense of how to proceed. You have some really challenging burdens you’re facing, hang in there. Remember, just take on today. You can’t deal with everything at once. Just handle today the best you can. Then do the same tomorrow. Soon you will begin to see a direction and a tiny bit of progress. Each day it will build. Even the setbacks will be advances when you look back on them. The setbacks will one day be nothing more than the memories of how damn strong you are and how much you endured. But just one day at a time doing the best you can in that day and whatever it brings. No more, but also no less.

          • Thanks for your kind words. I am very traumatized. I hope my new therapist works out. I’m now bumming that she “believes” in sex addiction. However, she was very clear last week at our first meeting…at the end of the session (me talking the whole session), she said “ok, forget about him…we’re going to work on you now. I hope she means to get me to a place where I can function day to day again and sleep at night; and not work on me as a “co-dependent”!

            • Try not to get hung up on the semantics thing. My therapist has commented that yes, he gets a big dopamine release from his porn life and that same secret life has destroyed his family – those are all signs of addiction. Much like gambling addiction. But she is clear that he is a narcissist and feels he is entitled to do anything he wants.

              She also pointed out that, say, your husband is an alcoholic and he is behaving horribly, but he goes to rehab. Who comes back? The same jerk who is not drinking anymore, or a completely different person who is sorry, makes amends, changes, and doesn’t feel entitled to your forgiveness. She says that’s the difference – my “alcoholic” wanted to fix the marriage, but showed me exactly what kind of pod person he really is. So that’s why I divorced him, not because of the porn, but because of the lying, the lack of empathy, the entitlement, the unbelievable level of entitlement!

              • Thank you! That’s very helpful explanation. I’m happy to hear that there are therapists who can Frame it that way. That gives me hope. And the example it’s great.

                Part of the reason I wanted full disclosure was so that I could tell the extent of his lying by omission. I really wanted to give us space for reconciliation if you really had no remorse… At least none that he could show me. I’m 90% sure about divorce just two months out and then I get these moments of wondering if Therapy would help him. But then I have to remember that he has told me over and over again that he wasn’t happy. Well I attributed that to general depression, my sister insisted he was telling me he doesn’t want to marriage. But I could never get him to actually admit that.

                When we exchange vehicles after his move on Saturday, I asked him one question in parting and that was whether he wanted a separation or divorce and he said a separation. But I still think he doesn’t really understand the difference between a separation agreement, separation and a divorce. Separation and a divorce and requires separation agreement and he’s having a hard time understanding that. I’ve been no contact and will remain a contact to give him room to see what he says. I know I deserve better and it’s a matter of just getting over this hump for a better life. But just two months out is really hard for me.

              • 2 months is such a short period of time – you are still in the thick of trauma. Horrible. I am so sorry. You might want to consider just going along for the ride until your mind clears and you can make good decisions for yourself. I was so traumatized it took quite a while for me to move on the divorce. I needed to be sure. It’s not a short race and you need to process, grieve, get good therapy, mull it over and then all of a sudden you can see a clear way ahead. Please be really gentle with yourself!
                ((Hugs))

        • Nveragain, I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I’ve been there. Let me say that I do not believe that there is such a thing as sex addiction but whatever you want to call it, you are dealing with a person with a severe personality disorder and that isn’t easy. There are some good resources out there for partners of “sex addicts”. My friend Diane writes a blog that you might find helpful: https://www.yourstoryissafehere.com/blog/ And there is an online support group for partners called Sisterhood of Support. I was a member for several years. They literally saved my life. And of course, you’re already here at CN which is fantastic as well. Understand you are dealing with severe emotional trauma, and likely have a raging case of PTSD. Practicing good self care is vital. So take good care of yourself – like you’d do if you were helping a friend through a terribly traumatic experience – because that’s what you’re doing. {{{{hugs}}}}

          • Thanks. I’m raging alright! Yes, I think PTSD is highly likely.

            I just looked up Sisterhood of Support briefly. Will look more closely tomorrow. Glad to hear they helped you!

            I’m buying myself flowers, had a full spa day 2 wks ago (even though he took his painted toenail foot fetish outside the marriage), and now a massage every week or two (even though he was having massages with happy endings – I told him to put those in his budget for the Separation Agreement…he said “ha ha funny”). I’ve been going out to eat with my adult special needs son every week and we’re trying to find Wonder at the movies. I lay down by the wood stove in the middle of the night when I can’t sleep. I’m taking baths in my soaking tub with Epsom salts as often as I can fit them in. I’m drinking my favorite Kombucha as often as I feel and I’ve been using up all the frozen meals in the freezers (we have 2) so that I don’t have to cook. I’m only cleaning what I really have to for now.

            I’m open to other easy/cheap self-care ideas!

        • nveragain, I am so sorry for what you are going through right now. I can see you are only 2 months post Dday. Ugh – wish I could wave magic want and put you a year out. Things will get so much easier when the trauma lessons. I saw my X’s pics and the shock of it traumatized me to a degree where I felt my brain fracture. It was too much information to take in. In that millisecond, I could see that this had been going on a long time, this was baaaaaaaad and my life as I knew it was over. It will get better. I hope you have a good therapist to help you with the trauma – worth every penny and speeds along the healing process. (((Hugs)))

          • Thanks! So sorry you had to go throught that! The naked pics are horrible. The Tribute pics are by far the most traumatizing for me though. The bisexual Craigslist ad really added to the skein of fuckupedness too though.

            • Mine said he was bisexual too – but I think he really thinks of all people as objects. He just wants human eyes on him while he does his thing – he doesn’t care about the sex of his sex object. That’s the opposite of bisexuality where people find real connections with both men and women. He has ZERO connection to anyone.

              • Oh, that is deep and insightful. Because he kept denying bisexuality your homosexuality. But of course I didn’t believe a word he was saying. Because let’s face it he was with other men. And I have no idea to what degree he was acting out.

                But now that you say this, it has me thinking about this in a whole new light. You just froze my brain in time. Which also degrades him even further in my mind.

        • Please do what I did and get tested again in 6 months. some things don’t show up immediately. I was clear first and then Hep B showed up. I am disgusted with him for doing that to me, not telling me he was having sex outside the marriage, and a million other things. But please get tested again and get ALL the tests, there are like 5 of them for Hep B.

          • I’m so sorry BeowulfSabrina. It’s so unfair when we pay the price for someone else’s misdeeds. I too have been tested multiple times. Whenever blood work is done I ask for a full panel STD test to be done even though it’s been more than 5 years since I was with my ex. As humiliating as it is to ask to be tested, I still worry that something might turn up even after all that time.

          • We haven’t had sex since July…for our 25th anniversary. The practitioner said I didn’t need to be tested again.

        • Holy Moly. I forgot! Mine started prancing around naked in a way he hadn’t previously. VERY PROUD of his pecker.

        • One more thing. Those financials seem so overwhelming now but one step at a time and you will get through it. Many of us have been there and know how nearly impossible it feels. Hang in there and take care.

        • nveragain, a second to the comments on just hang on, it will get better. Breathe, set small goals, give yourself permission to take it easy, and breathe some more. Repeat. Several million times a day if necessary. You are what matters and whatever it takes is ok.

          • I spent Sunday in my jammies talking to my old high school girlfriend whose husband had depression (no sexual acting out) and provided some great insight. We talked for 3 1/2 hrs! And I spoke with Cheaterssuck the night before for 1 1/2 hrs. That talk proved invaluable to.

            The takeaway…if I ever mention the word reconciliation again, I am to pick up the phone and call someone!!!!

    • My X badgered me to attend a swinger party not long after we married. He found one online and insisted I would “have fun”. I felt it was required of me in order to stay in the new marriage. He drove us over to the address and I sat in the car shaking uncontrollably. I refused to go in and he finally chickened out too.

      I should have left him then. I had left a good job, my family and moved to a new area to marry him. I felt so alone and in shock to find out my “dream man” thought nothing of sharing me with strangers.

  • I need brain bleach for the drawing today, but bravo on the article.

    I don’t think we can judge anyone on HONEST relationships with someone else (whatever their flavour of “ry”) but it sounds like Slutever is a cheater trying to justify her dishonesty by calling monogamy dishonest. That’s the sort of logic prevalent in narcissists and others with fucked up thinking who need a justification to cheat (ie you (wife spouse who I promised to be faithful to) deserved it because you were dishonest with yourself in believing I would be honest with you).

  • What REALLY frustrates me is the constant fallacy that monogamy is hard or even ‘unnatural’. I have a few issues with this. The first is that – monogamy is found in NATURE, it is natural for many species besides humans. Also, even when there were some human groups that did not practice monogamy for all, those who were not required to be monogamous tended to be limited. Leaders of the tribe or group that were expected to care for financially and completely any children that were born from their many wives. There were very few ‘top dogs’, so again, most folks were monogamous. This or cults in which attachment was not to be formed amongst only two individuals, so no monogamy. Because, of course, when you are in a monogamous relationship you will tend to form a bond with that person and protect them, even if you have to go against the rules of the cult. Cult leaders that want absolute control tend to banish monogamy.

    The second is that – my husband was no prize. He was never the most handsome man in the room to me. He was never the funniest or the coolest or the best conversationalists. However, the qualities that he had, in the measures in which he had them, led him to be someone that I liked as a person and could absolutely be happy sending the rest of my life with him. When I made that decision to get married, it was NEVER hard for me to stay faithful. Even when other men were more attractive, had better bodies, more money, told better jokes, had conversation or easily, or dripped with sex appeal. It still never took any effort at all, even when I was propositioned by folks that would have been ‘my type’, to be faithful. I never, ever thought about cheating – even when I was upset with my husband, or unhappy, or felt under appreciated.

    I have come to the conclusion that monogamy is only hard for people that are of low character. Issues with monogamy are a sign of weakness and I know to run away screaming whenever I encounter such types.

    • Same here. I’m remarried. I feel attracted to other people all the time. I also sometimes desire other things that wouldn’t be good for me, like unhealthy foods, procrastinating something important in favor of a nice book, telling someone off at work, overspending on travel, etc.

      As an adult, I self-regulate. I weigh my options and make intentional choices. I consider the needs of people I love and care about, and even people I have never met in some cases, as I do so. I am able to easily weigh the reptilian self’s want (oooo, tasty tater tots…) vs the self-actualized adult self’s want (tater tots always make me feel crappy, so I will have these also yummy crispy rice crackers instead).

      Or, otherwise stated, Dude A is very good looking and charming, his personality seems great on the surface, and he’s interesting to chat up. My partner is the person with whom I’ve selected to share the depths of my heart and soul, the intimate truths of my ever-changing body, and my interesting (?) and often inelegant mind. I value that relationship very much. He is visually attractive to me, but that’s super far from the point for me. I’m not in a monogamous partnership with him because he looks pretty.

      The way I see it, the writer of the piece is straining to make shallow disinterest in humanity and poor self worth appear sophisticated and the only way to do that is to malign the monogamous. Middle school technique.

      I have a friend who is a big time swinger. All her boyfriends are swingers. They aren’t long-lasting relationships. Neither she nor these boyfriends are young or supermodelish. She is very happy, yet she’d be the first one to tell you that the reason the lifestyle works for her is because she doesn’t WANT an intimate relationship with one person. The boyfriends are interesting for a while, but she gets bored, and she realizes that means she is non-monogamous at heart and should pair up with others who feel the same. If she becomes aware that anyone has someone in their lives who may not be aware of their activities, she cuts the person off for sex and anything else. She’s as honest as possible and expects the same from others. She’s intolerant of less and she’s very clear with boundaries. I have a lot of respect for that. I don’t worry about her around my partner because her character around her choices is clear.

      There are mature ways to approach everything. For me, there’s never a question about my monogamy because I know I choose it and I want it as an adult who cares about myself, my partner, and my community. Too bad we don’t have some kind of meter that would help us all find each other. 🙂

    • Monogamy is “hard” for disordered folks because they get bored very easily due to their inner emptiness, and they enjoy knowing they have secrets and are “getting away with something” over their chumped spouse. It’s the thrill of the lying and cheating, not the sex, that really floats the boat of the truly disordered cheater, IMHO.

      • I agree with this assessment. Dday was December 19th, And I’ve been reading up on sex addiction from the literature from sex aholics anonymous (SAA).

        While I had no clue that my husband has been leading a double life for five years, now that I look back at our 30 years together, I can certainly connect the dots in this regard. I know that he was a thrill seeker in high school, I know he was a thrill seeker in the Service, and throughout our marriage… Especially in the earlier years when we were younger… He would always get very excited about taking the Jeep into some on authorized area to explore with me. He also got a kick of getting away is misrepresenting himself is somebody famous when we go out to done just to get ahead of the line on the red carpet and to get the best table in the place. He would always tell grandiose stories that had this element of excitement when in reality who is just another event in the lives of ordinary people. He keeps saying he was unhappy in the marriage and I yes that’s because we were no longer able to afford to travel to exotic places. As I matured, I no longer was interested in cigarettes booze or recreational marijuana we’re going to bars even though it was so listen to his brother play. On the few occasions that I didn’t go with him, because it was about the only thing left that we did together, I hated how he lusted after women at the gigs. There was this element of schlepping around like a teenager when he was eight gigs. It was pretty pitiful.

        • Watch out for the codependency nonsense that a lot of those sites spew. You do not have a codependency problem. You have a married-to-a-disordered-freak problem. You can also be pretty sure this went on a lot longer than five years. My standard response is to take the number of partners and/or the number of years they admit to engaging in the behavior and AT LEAST triple the number to get closer to the truth.

          • Yes to this Beth !

            “Am I being codependent or am I being abused ?” That is the question to ask.

            • Yes, I am currently reading your sexually addicted spouse and what I like about that book is the authors inform the reader to not let Sarah pissed tell you that you are co-dependent sex addict but that you are experiencing trauma as the symptoms can look similar.

            • The answer 99.9% of the time is abused. The codependency model might work for alcoholism and drug abuse but it does not work for pseudo sex addiction. All that codependent shit is, is a way to keep you stuck with a cheater while the CSATs collect their fees and make you believe all the trauma you’re experiencing is your own fault.

  • I am usually nauseated in the morning anyways, but Brit’s description of these orgies and the “smells” really did it for me! I just don’t see how a gathering like this could be “enlightened, sophisticated or cosmopolitan.” Just sounds like a bunch of immature people gathering together to do something “naughty” and get away with it. You know, the same types of people who when they were teenagers would make out under the bleachers during football games or in someone’s basement during a birthday party and thought they were cute and fooling everyone? They just never really grow up!

  • I’m constantly amazed at the ‘unchained freedom from lies & jealousy’ these quacks attribute to swinging. Really?

    You know how many times I’ve heard of marriages / relationships destroyed by opening up their bedroom to others to spice things up?
    Sorry, I wasn’t raised in a hippie commune so maybe I just don’t get it. I doubt most of us were.
    You’re either ‘deeply in love’ with your partner, or yourself. That’s the difference between monogamy & swinging.

    • Besides, swinging doesn’t guarantee any of that anyway. People ARE people after all. Put ’em in a group and drama will ensure somewhere.

      • A friend told me about an acquaintance who was bullied into swinging by her husband. She met a man whose wife bullied him. They both left their swinging spouses and are now happily married.
        Why do we humans keep pairing up if it is so unnatural? Why do we feel jealous? Why do we love deeply? Why are we so wounded when we are discarded? We do it because we are designed that way. I am just sick of every excuse made by people who cheat.

    • I would never have agreed to an open marriage if ex had asked because I knew there was always the danger that he would fall for one of his fuck buddies. He tried to have a covert open marriage (when I asked him about what he was thinking having an affair he told me “open marriage” was the idea). Sure enough he fell for one of his fuckbuddies. So messed up. Even if he hadn’t fallen for her, it would hurt that I wasn’t a good enough lover to keep him satisfied so he had to look elsewhere even if it had stopped at the sex.

  • “…but what if you had cabbage for lunch and were feeling rather bloated that day?”

    Terrific. I just spit out a mouthful of my coffee all over my keyboard. (sigh)

    And, thanks for the reminder… I need to schedule my annual mammogram. 🙂

    • Putting any kind of “helpful to your relationship” spin on orgies is nothing but vampire PR. No vampire is going to advertise come to our party and have the very life sucked out of you.

  • In this day and age, everyone’s a writer. It’s about “clicks”. So crap like this gets published, and when the reaction is “ew” suddenly fans of it are incredulous and condescending about us prudes. Give me a break. Kinky shit has been around forever, and fucked up people who want it to be the norm will always exist.

    I live in a small town near a mid size city, and there is a group of parents/adults who swing. I’m open minded, liberal, artist, love a topless beach (bc tan lines), blah blah blah, but this is so gross. They’re gross. This is the country club preppy, functioning alcoholics, boarding school set. The money from previous generations is going going gone, but no one talks about that. Attractive to some from the outside. But when the drinking starts, the eating stops, and the behaviour is really unattractive. No question I’m ridiculed for not engaging in any way, but when I saw one mother smoking pot with her 15 year old, I didn’t think ‘so enlightened’, I thought ‘child abuse’. So call me a prude because I parent my kids, not friend them. At least I wake up every day with no questions about what the fuck I did last night while I make school lunches and get side eye from my kids. What they have in common is unhappiness, fucked up kids, alcoholism, eating disorders, infidelity, expensive lifestyles they can’t afford, and they are all emotionless and shallow. But misery loves fucking the neighbours. It’s said you’re the average of your 5 closest friends, so it’s no surprise this is all accepted by the like minded. These were for sure among the group of popular high schoolers back in the day, and using sex – and at 50, sagging tits and balls – for validation has never stopped.

    One of the women started an affair with a well known (in his field) man across the country. Since her drinking made her blab, I found the guy’s wife and wrote an anonymous letter to her and blew up the affair. She has no idea it was me, because she can’t remember conversations she just had, but she told a lot of detail. She raged for weeks then found herself a new boy toy, and goes to Ivy League lacrosse games in her lily Pulitzer outfits.

    • “One of the women started an affair with a well known (in his field) man across the country. Since her drinking made her blab, I found the guy’s wife and wrote an anonymous letter to her and blew up the affair. ”

      Nice!

    • I found out on New Years Eve, this year…. my sons friends moms; a not yet divorced dad; had an Orgy on the night the kiddos had continuation ceremony from 6th grade.
      I felt slighted not to be invited to the celebration for the kids as we have been in each other’s lives since kids were in Pre-pre school. Now I know why.

      Turns out this alcohol and cocaine fueled Orgy led to one divorce, and one on the way.
      In which the H has no idea, that wife is addicted to coke- thinks she won the pick me dance of the Orgy Dad and he is her “ only side piece”? Once I found out I went NC with the whole bunch. How awkward was it at flag football sitting with this woman and her unknowing husband as they plan the oldest sons bar mitvah.
      It does affect the kids as I have seen the behavioral changes to each other: fighting amongst the group/ shunning/ for no reason. Or no obvious reason to the kids ….it’s like the kids take it out on each other. Even though IMO they really want to take it out on the parents.
      It boggles my mind….and did I not get an invite to the Mitvah….. lol… good!

      • Yeah, I’m not in the group either. I don’t drink daily, My kids don’t party with me, I don’t strip naked in the middle of a crowded living room and sit on the baseball coach’s lap so everyone can chatter about how great I look naked. That shit happens. I’m blessed with a much more satisfying and intellectual social circle for sure, and we don’t show up in the police blotter on Monday morning. That happens too. Yay us, btw magam!

  • Validation by a single person is not nearly enough for the insecure, the narcissistic, and the maturity-stunted. There must always be more, the monster must be fed.

    Just this weekend, KK used one of her recent infamous “boudoir” photos as her profile pic on FB, with the caption: “Damn, I’m proud of myself.”

    Having them taken and being pleased with the outcome wasn’t enough. RPD’s undoubtedly pleased and perverted reaction wasn’t enough. Posting the full set to her private Instagram account wasn’t enough. The pics serve no purpose unless shared with as many people as possible . . . because the monster MUST be fed, and often.

    • Great example! But get OFF her fb page. If for no other reason so you don’t have to bleach your eyes!

      • Both daughters (15 & 14) are FB friends with her and can see her page. I need to know what they’re being exposed to online.

        • Mine are 14 and 16 and old enough to know what they are looking at, to unfriend, to block, or to report – when it comes to cheater x. They are ashamed and disgusted, and, no, I don’t need to see that! Truth is not only can I not protect them from their narc parent’s online presence, but it shows them exactly how shallow and phony he is. I already know and don’t need a reminder.

    • I always said that Cheater equated the enthusiasm of the flattery with its validity. All that counted was the gush, nothing else. He was a perfect mark for shady business deals – “I’m coming to you with this deal because you’re the sharpest, smartest, most deserving. And I don’t want anyone else to know about it. You. Are. Super. Special. And we are gonna make a ton of money just the two of us.” Totally his Achilles heel. The only transactions that came to fruition were the ones that were not self serving. With honest, good people. Being raised as the go,den child who could do no wrong and was boasted about and praised just for existing made him a shit judge of character. Dday happened the same week his best friend of 20 yrs who loved us and would never put us at risk, threw him directly under a business bus. Hard. We were on the verge of being sued. We were both poring over emails, receipts etc., at the the same time, trying to make sense of the betrayals, putting timelines together, etc. It was oddly satisfying, when I wasn’t throwing up.

        • I agree. And they also want desperately to believe what they’re hearing about themselves. Watching a manipulator at work is fascinating – I have a neighbour who works a room like a champ. She spots the weakest person and drapes herself over him/her like a silk scarf. And there are people whomshe bounces off of like they have a force field. It’s worth noting that she respects the boundaries of those who maintain them. Everyone else, she slips through any crack in the boundary she can, like a snake, full of the exact precise words of flattery. Her daughter, who’s my son’s age (20), they grew up together and she did the same thing as a young girl. She competed with her mom and used sexiness on men as a child. It made everyone uncomfortable and the More people got uneasy, the stronger and bolder she got. And happier and more smug. They feel emotions by watching others have them. It’s so disconcerting, but once you recognize it, it’s fascinating. Because they’ve honed these skills for a lifetime.

    • And KK is definitely going off the rails. I tell my daughter that the “likes” she’s always checking on are usually the result of someone sitting on a toilet killing time. Completely meaningless. Ask them in an hour what they “liked” about your post. The affair was like that – respond immediately, constantly. “Hey” at 5am texted during a morning, um, constitutional is a sign of real connection.

    • Once more, KK goes the extra mile.

      My CheaterX’s Schmoopie was a bit like this. Schmoopie liked to get her makeup and hair done, and then take “come hither” selfies, which she posted on her Facebook and Linked-In accounts. Before Dday, I saw the new one on her Linked-In and said something to CheaterX about how Schmoopie’s Linked-In photo was really unprofessional in its messaging.

      Schmoopie blocked me once she started sleeping with CheaterX, but I had access to CheaterXs’s FB page for quite a long while when I was deep in the snooping phase post-Dday. Schmoopie would post the results of all those stupid FB quizzes which showed her to be very empathetic and caring, along with her comments that hers was “a natural beauty” (said the woman whose red hair showed her gray roots) and that she was often too caring. Oh, and did she tell the world that she won a wet t-shirt contest in high school?

      The narcissism was strong with that one.

    • “Validation by a single person is not nearly enough for the insecure, the narcissistic, and the maturity-stunted. There must always be more, the monster must be fed.” Exactly right, UX. I constantly told my ex how wonderful I thought he was. I would enumerate all of his great qualities, tell him I was proud of him, publically tout all of his wonderfulness on FB, etc. It was never enough. There was a gaping hole in him that apparently needed constant filling and no matter how much I tried, it was never enough. That’s why he turned to strippers for his affair partners. They would tell him what a fantastic friend, lover, overall good guy he was – whatever he wanted to hear as long as he paid them. And they didn’t ask him for any of the hard stuff that I asked for – empathy, intimacy, love, etc. I also think there was an element of punishment involved that was probably true of KK as well. My ex KNEW I was a better person than he was (not that it took much effort on my part, given who and what he is). In fact, he told me once, towards the end of the marriage, that I was the best person he had ever known. I think in his twisted thinking, if I was a better person than he was, he needed to make me feel as bad about myself as possible so that he could feel better about himself. He was busy leveling the playing field for a game I didn’t even know I was playing. As you know all too well, you can’t fix that level of soullessness whatever it’s root cause (FOI issues, trauma, etc.) so all you can do is remove yourself from the relationship and protect yourself and your children as best you can.

      • My girlfriend and I discussed this yesterday. Her depressed husband just couldn’t meet her standards he said. He just paled in comparison to her. She was too mighty I guess you could say. My GF thought that might be what happened with my STBX. I was into all things healthy and he couldn’t keep up with me and he just didn’t want to give up his self-destructive stuff. I was too “good” for him but not in the way we usually understand it to be.

        • It must be exhausting to keep up their facade for years at a time, with us normal folks holding them acccountable to a normal (albeit Chumpy) standard of behavior. Now that I understand what my ex is (a sociopath) I can now appreciate the level of self-control he had to exercise to participate in the life he had with me. Now that he has found a carnival tent full of BDSM sex receptacles to replace me with (female ‘subsmissives’ who have clearly been victims of childhood sexual abuse, conditioned to seek out and desire mistreatment), he must be happy as a pig in slop. Most of these these women are Uber chumps and dIsordered OWs, convinced they have found a way to find pleasure and love through sexual humiliation, but it’s literally a race to the ‘bottom’. They will all eat each other alive. I am just terrified that my children might get exposed to this, and grow up to join their ranks some day.

          • My burning question is do we tell them we think they are narcissistic or socio/psycholopatholigical as we exit?

            See, I still want to “help” him.

            • Nveragain, it doesn’t help. You’re simply full of hate and “calling them names”

              Been there. You can’t help them.

              • Will his psychologist connect the dots and then tell him? Do the therapists ever tell their clients they have a character disturbance?

                It’s like he split into 2 people. He just cracked.

                I was telling my sister I was really afraid for him…what will become of him. (She doesn pastoral counseling so is ahead of the curve on this compared to me in some ways, even though she hasn’t suffered this type of thing.)She quickly reassured me he will immerse himself in his new job. That will become who he is.

                I used to say we should move to the Caribbean where he was stationed for yrs in the service. And he always responded that he’d end up a drunk if we did. I never considered him an alcoholic so I couldn’t understand why he said that. But now I know that my son (from a previous marriage but he raised him well and willingly since 3 yo; he’s now a high functioning special needs 34 yo that still lives with us/me) and I were what kept him chugging along all these years. Not that I doted on him. He was a chef by trade so he made all the meals and he didn’t need to be asked to do things around the house or yard. He was very diligent. But now that I connect the dots, his deviant personality and empty soul found these exact things to be what kept him from true happiness – he says he had too much responsibility and that I didn’t appreciate him. He likes his kibbles too much. His character disturbance had him writing the story that I was holding him back; that I created the war on his happiness. I think he’ll keep himself busy and happy with the new job until that becomes old and tedious and not shiny anymore. He’ll soon realize that I was right…that he shorted himself on his contract regarding salary level and benefits…and he’ll be “unhappy” again. I was not the source of his unhappiness. His family was not the source of his unhappiness.

                My therapist said when people don’t love themselves, they can’t love anyone or anything else. How profound. This helps me not put the blame on myself in the myriad ways self-blaming tries to creep in even though you know you didn’t cause the shit sandwich.

                I have no idea what he wanted/expected in life. He always felt that everyone had it better than him. The mental constructs he created eroded his “good enough” real life. The fantasies of what his status should be in life wrecked our marriage and his being.

                Alzheimer’s was already knocking on his door and now at 61, retirement is looming in a few years. My SA will state he WILL NOT get alimony from me once he collects SS and/or retires. That’s for damn sure!

                The kicker when he moved out last Saturday. He brought his boxes of clothes, his (naugahyde) leather chair (yes, really), his work desk and a big bad ass box of liquor bottles! His psychologist, whom he’s seen only a handful of times, told him he was borderline alcoholic and he chose to bring a huge box of liquor bottles with him. Sadz. I was in shock. That gave me little hope. I’m sure he was afraid I’d pour the shit down the drain. In reality, that thought never occurred to me. I could care less. It’s his problem, not mine.

                It’s interesting that he’s dealing with severe depression and he chooses to drink which is a depressant. I wonder if his therapist told him that. He’s also supposed to see a psychiatrist for meds. Booze and anti-depressants taken together are a big no-no. So he has to give up smoking, booze, weed and acting out. He’s not going to be fun to be around! I was there for him the last 5-10 yrs urging we get help, but nope. Now he gets to do it alone. I doubt he will have sustained efforts in getting help. Sad sausage.

        • Well Lemonbirch, if your guy was a porn addicted, stripper fucking, thinks-I should-want-to-do-anal-but-refuses-to-get-a-prostate-exam-’cause-too-painful-and-nasty, controlling asshole then yep, they’re the same guy. 😀 It’s always funny to me how similar so many of these freaks are – it’s like they all came out of the same warped mold.

  • ‘Everybody is cheating’ ….

    7.5 men out of every 10 aren’t.
    8.5 women out of every 10 aren’t.

    My psychology text book (2011) put that in America 4% – that’s right, FOUR PER CENT of marriages have extra marital affairs in a year.

    Now, my grasp on statistics is very shaky (borne out by my exam results), but this kind of plays out on Professor Thomas Sowell’s challenge of the careless finding that ‘50% of marriages end in divorce’.

    Even my observations tie in with this – in my group of friends, acquaintances and sports/hobby groups, as a divorced person I am in the absolute minority. Most people DO NOT get divorced…. The 50% lazy stat is from the number of marriages being conducted in one year, vs the number of divorces. But that is comparing the number of marriages of, say 2015 vs the divorces in all the marriages conducted before 2015.

    Prof Sowell said that to get the real rate of divorce statistically, you would have to take one year of marriages, say 1963 and then track them longitudinally, to see who in 1963 got divorced. And so on. He said the actual rate of divorce is about 10%.

    But what did Geobells say? If you repeat a lie a thousand times, it becomes the truth. Therefore: cheating? Everyone does it.

    • Patsy, now that you mention it, I have friends who live allover the world, only a few local after DDay. Out of a my friends I’m the only divorced person, all our neighbors and acquaintances are still married. We’re all around the same age and married in the same time frame give or take a year or two.

      Funny, X would claim that our marriage was so much stronger than everyone else’s. Evidently he said that to gain my trust.
      One day a Mom at my son’s school asked if I ever worried about X being unfaithful while he’s away from home. X was standing next to me, within listening distance. I said, no, X loves our family too much to cheat, as I gave X a hug and smiled. Thinking back this was actually a red flag moment, X , who is never at a loss for words, didn’t say anything to support my response or return my hug. I remember thinking that was odd. I often wondered if she remembers asking me that question and my response.
      Humiliating.
      One of the many times I should have paid attention to my gut feelings.

        • Sucker Punched, it wouldn’t surprise me. There were other incidents of questionable behavior with women in the neighborhood. One particular slut neighbor, who would wash her car in her bikini and high heels, when she was dressed she’d only wear blouses that allowed her huge fake boobs to spill out, X made fun of her until he move out of our home. Suddenly they were “friends” he was confiding in her and they began meeting for coffee every morning and who knows what else.

    • The stats are worse than that; 4% of people cheating per year can mean it is different people over years (or that some of the 96% of people are lying). These are the most updated and accepted stats:
      Marriage Infidelity Statistics Data
      Percent of marriages where one or both spouses admit to infidelity, either physical or emotional 41 %

      Percent of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had 57 %

      Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had 54 %

      Percent of married men who have strayed at least once during their married lives 22 %

      Percent of married women who have strayed at least once during their married lives 14 %

      Percentage of men and women who admit to having an affair with a co-worker 36 %

      Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity on business trips 35%

      Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law 17 %

      Average length of an affair 2 years

      Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered 31 %

      Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught 74 %

      Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught 68 %

      Percent of children who are the product of infidelity 2.5 %

      https://www.statisticbrain.com/infidelity-statistics/

      • Ouch! I’d like to see the long-term survival stats on marriages where there’s infidelity. I know several couples who stayed together, but ended up divorced years down the road, either because of repeat infidelity, or because the mess couldn’t be repaired, or because the cheating partner was just too difficult in other ways..

        It would be so helpful to be able to tell new chumps: you’ll probably end up divorced anyway, down the line, so just bite the bullet now. It won’t be easier down the road!

      • Exactly Tempest, who can ever believe statistics about cheaters if they are the ones responsible for giving the answers. Statistics are like a bikini, they show a lot but hide the important parts.

    • I’m not sure where you found those statistics, but I suspect they are FAR from accurate. If the infidelity statistics were that low, I would imagine both CL and Ashley Madison would not have more members than they know what to do with. The divorce rate for first marriages might be slightly lower than 50%, but it’s nowhere near 10. The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is significantly higher.

      • Divorce rate is skewed by second and third marriages (which have a much lower success rate than first marriages) and by people who marry at 25 years-old and younger. If we were to only look at couples who were married the first time, and wed at 26 years-old or older, the divorce rate is much much lower than the 46 (or so)% which is always touted.

  • I cracked up laughing at Slutever’s remark “I began to wonder if nonmonogamy could teach me something on a deeper level that monogamy couldn’t — if perhaps these orgy people were really onto something”

    Incredible that a sentence combines deeper level and orgy people and it’s author goes by the name Slutever.

    Orgy people….omg….that’s rich to imagine there’s anything on a deeper level that drugs, booze and the sounds and smell of orgy people slipping and sliding amongst the spray of body fluids is a journey to deep meaning.

    The glimpse into the world of orgy people is hilariously frightening.

    • Oh, and I love that ‘I’ve always been jealous and insecure. Maybe non-monogamy can teach me something.’ Yeah, because nothing helps jealousy and insecurity like wondering who your partner is screwing now, wondering whether they’re developing a ‘deeper connection’ w/their fuck buddy, and wondering whether your sideline sex life is as fab as your partner’s!

  • “Extramarital attraction is not cheating. Don’t muddy the waters.”

    THIS!!!

    I am fully aware that, despite my strengths, I will not be everything that a woman is ever attracted to–physically, emotiaonally, spiritually–in a mate for the rest of her life.

    But that’s the whole point–to be faithful even when you aren’t totally attracted to your mate, even when you’re arguing, even when you’re short on sleep because the baby was up all night crying, even when there’s a new cute girl at work who flirts, even when you forgot boundaries and chat too much with a male friend so now you have a small crush on him.

    In all of those instances, you SHUT IT DOWN. You realize that your energy is going toward something else and away from your spouse, and you refocus on your spouse and kids.

    None of this is rocket science.

  • Yes to the mammogram. My breast cancer was discovered in a mammogram and I am now in remission, keeping myself as healthy as possible to stay in the battle and finalize the divorce from the Douchebag. Got a surprise call from a man last week, “Did you know your Douchebag was f*cking my now ex-wife [while chump me was undergoing cancer diagnosis and treatment]?” My response, “No but I am not surprised any more, I already know about one other, she wasn’t the only one.” And I found myself apologizing to the guy. How weird is that.

    • So glad you’re healthy!!! I apologized to the unknowing OW who found my business card in my husband’s wallet and gave me a call at work. She cried and cried because he told her he was single and didn’t wear a ring and she believed him. I asked if she knew where he was right now, and she said, “In my bed!” Just horrible.

      • NWHI, oh, wow!! I would have said, “wake that prick up, hand him the phone so I can tell him where to find his stuff!”

          • Lol, that was the first of two cheating husbands. Asshole threatened to sue me for alimony and slander. When he neglected to pay his half of the debt (which was all causdd by him), I filed a contempt charge in a hot minute.

            X represented himself and because no one is the boss of him and he is above the law, he wrote the judge a letter because he couldn’t even bother to show up in court! Judge was pissed! He was ordered to pay immediately or have a warrent issued for his arrest.

            Instantly paid! By whom, I do not know. Some unfortunate girl’s name was on the check. He had moved on to his next target.

  • A very timely article for me, CL. Thank you!

    My D-day was just over a month ago. I accidentally found out that STBX is having a “love affair” with his best friend’s wife. When I confronted STBX, he calmly stated that “this doesn’t affect YOU- no, Pete doesn’t know (bestie, names will be changed to protect the ‘innocent’), and it’s HER job to tell him (or not) if she chooses to (or not). All with a smug smirk that I’d still like to punch off his face.

    But anyhow. STBX goes into a spiel about how “YOU should have known that I never intended to stay just with you. I am polyamorous”. Right, says I, well okay, dude. IF so…you’re doing it wrong. But whatever. You’re never touching ME again. And we are going to counseling.

    We had our first counseling session last week. Therapist decided within the first 5 minutes that there was nothing to save, since he won’t stop the affair and furthermore, has no remorse. The counseling session took place on Tuesday afternoon- STBX had spent the ENTIRE weekend prior at Pete and Shmoopie’s place. I asked STBX if ‘they’ had managed to approach telling Pete over the weekend. STBX looked uncomfortable and says “well, Pete knows”. OK, so you told him? “Well, we had a threesome”. Oh, so how did that go? “Not as well as you might think”, says STBX. I couldn’t help but laugh…so, then you didn’t mention to him that you are ‘in love’ with his wife?

    STBX, looking pained “no”. I burst into uncontrollable laughter. Therapist looked alarmed.

    Yeah, monogamy sure is tough. *insert rolling eyes*

    • Omg! Get a bulldog lawyer and quick! And… I’m going out on a limb to say that Pete has no idea what the f is going on. Poor Pete, please let him know it wasn’t his openingup his marriage that destroyed it, it was destroyed before that.

      Oh and by the way, tell your STBX that his boinking his best friends wife certainly DOES AFFECT YOU! Fucking douche!

      • I sent Pete a FB message last Thursday night to let him know. The only fallout I have seen since is that both his and Shmoopie’s pages have ‘blocked’ me (but not STBX’s), so who knows if he’s feeling guilty himself or if she intercepted the message and did the blocking herself. Not my circus, definitely NOT my monkeys.

        And yeah, STBX is definitely a fucking douche. I am lawyering up and getting the hell out of here just as quickly as possible. I can’t stand the sight of him.

    • OMG, that is so gross. His best friend and his wife? Euwwww. One of my best friends is male and married. In a few weeks I’m going back to my home town, where my friend and his family still live, to go to see a musician I like. It’s going to be a late night and my mom’s house, where I normally stay when I visit, is on the other side of the city so my friend’s wife invited me to stay at their house that night which I greatly appreciate. But I’ve been mildly freaking out about how weird it will be to sleep in their house, and what if they see me getting up in the night to go to the bathroom, in all my rumpled, bed head glory, etc. The thought of seeing them naked or them seeing me??? Much less having sex… Dear God, that is twisted. How would you ever face them again? I guess I’m not hip enough to be a swinger and I’m really, really okay with that. I’m glad you told Pete the truth. Now it’s his to deal with or not. And I’m even more glad you’re getting the hell out!!

      • All these “best friend” types of swinger/partner sharing situations sound like messy shit. They remind me of episodes of Maury titled “i slept with your best friend and i don’t know which of you I’m pregnant from”

        • STBX has had a vasectomy years ago, and Shmoopie had a hysterectomy early last year (yes, I even sent her a ‘get well’ card (gag).

          So, if they wind up on Maury with her questioning a baby daddy, we may need to brace ourselves for the spawn of Satan, I guess. LOL.

        • My ex best friend and her husband had a 3 way with my stbxh I had made it extremely clear that I was not into that and still viewed it as breaking the vow I had made before God and cheating whether I had my husband’s permission to do it or not…so they just did it behind my back..and lied about it for a decade…that was just the goo icing on a very worm filled diseased cake..truly a sick piece of garbage..and I married this man..so disgusted

      • Yes, I have been told that I am “not evolved or sophisticated enough” to understand without “hatred”…blah blah blah. I told him to shut the fuck up and get out of my face.

  • “But with ground rules and communication, the result could be a more honest, fulfilling relationship” … well that’s what I THOUGHT I had, but apparently only swingers are capable of such mature behavior. Barf!

    Hey if you want to boink strangers at midnight, great for you Skinderella, but don’t cut off the head of monogamy to make yourself feel taller (or smarter). “I’m better than you are, nanny nanny boo-boo!” Fun fact.. people in open relationships also chea and lie. Deception isn’t a lifestyle issue, it’s a character issue.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get ready for a court date to divorce the swinger who lied and said he monogamous. I’m sure now that he can screw whomever he wants he’s a moral upstanding citizen and didn’t drain our life savings, or fail to tell me the last five years he filed extensions on our taxes, and he’s got me on the hook with the IRS for $300,000. In capital gains taxes! No sweetie, unfettered sex doesn’t make you a good person, character does!

    • I am a CPA here in TX.

      Have you lookd into applying for innocent spouse relief? Get a CPA in your area to look over your case, hopefully you protect yourself.

  • I have recently learned my next door neighbours are “swingers”.
    The husband is a very successful business man, lovely home, ( still constantly updates- into image importance), many toys, specializing in go fast, speed boats, vehicles, flaming lights on gorgeous outside patio, awnings, hot tub.
    He is ok in looks, but nothing spectacular.
    The wife is a natural beauty, seems very sweet, quiet. She dotes on her husband. He is always the first word in her sentence.
    Both love alcohol.
    The children are never home. They are in late teens. When they were younger they would spend a lot of time with me, just wonder over, pick flowers in the garden, have a snack, chat, give me a hug before heading home. It seems I was closer to them than either of their parents. There was no aunt, uncle, grandparet visits or involvement ever.
    The parents go out in taxis, early evening, return home who knows when.
    It all just seems so shallow, unfulfilling, senseless.
    Like many here, I just don’t get it.
    ( and my heart goes out to the kids).

    • While as parents we sometimes lie to our kids to protect them, I can’t imagine presenting one set of values to my kids, and then living another. Unless of course these people are honest about their lifestyle, because of course swingers are so honest apparently. Hmmm… wonder what perks of wisdom today’s author would have about that…. Since we monogamous people are doing it wrong and all.

      • When the children were young they would have no idea their parents were swingers, I had no idea either. They were just different.
        The kids were very quiet, introvert. They did say to me that their parents never did anything with them or take them anywhere. They were always off somewhere, drinking “having fun” with their friends. I remember hugging the kids, beautiful children, big eyes, eager to please and to have attention, warms hearts that would melt you.
        Damn, I hate when the innocent children suffer and they always do.

  • While this author’s remarks are ridiculous, if she decides to explore this lifestyle and can be honest about it, she’ll still manage to be more honorable than our cheaters who pretended to believe in monogamy, exchanged vows with us, and then lied to us for years. Phony frauds. Decepticons. They suck.

  • When I was in my physical prime at 18….looking ever awesomely muscular in those parachute pants and Night Ranger shirt….sporting that gorgeous black mullet….the thought of attending an orgy never crossed my mind.

  • WTF – first the article is really stupid. Second, who even cares about a bunch of bored people engaging in an orgy. Third, there is nothing honest about it. If these people were honest with themselves, or given to introspection they would be confronted with the unpleasant truth of their inability to commit to one person.

  • Mr. Sparkles often responded to Craigslist ads for these sort of events. I nearly lost my mind when I saw the photos (spyware – thank you) of the people who were going to be in attendance… many of the “girls” were in their 20’s… the same age as his daughters (from his first marriage). He saw no issue with it… he just didn’t like that I caught him.

    (And the cartoon – that’s my guy… LOL!)

  • A coworker told me once that he had neighbors, more specifically 5 couples that were swingers and would participate in orgies, and all sleep together. They all divorced, every single couple one after the other. So much for orgies and having a healthy marriage.

  • ““If something doesn’t feel comfortable, you ask yourself why that is, and try to understand if and why your jealousy is irrational.”

    Well for starters the fact that your spouse wants to have random sex with strangers should raise a red flag about embracing a lack of intamacy.

    When did monogamy morf into participating in group sex? Isn’t it about examining the value of yourself, your integrity and need for intamacy.

    WHY. GET.MARRIED.?

    I’m dating and interested in an awesome guy going through a divorce. Last night he said these magic words, “What makes a person is their integrity and character.”

    That’s what rocks my boat.

  • It should be pointed out — Ms. Sciortino also produced a piece for VICE about the newest line of full-sized, lifelike male sex dolls, and then had sex with it (some of it on camera) and had this reaction:

    “It feels weird because it is so lifelike, but it enters this space which feels uncomfortable. It feels like a real person who can’t respond to you.”

    Sexual gratification with something that looks and feels human, without the responsibility of having to deal with their opinions, emotions, and imperfections (real or perceived).

    It’s a narcissist’s paradise.

    I won’t provide the link, but it’s very easy to find, if you can stand it: google “Karley Sciortino VICE doll” (WARNING: not appropriate for work)

    • OMG, I think I had that same experience being physical with Hannibal Lecher: “It feels like a real person who can’t respond to you,” in any intimate way.

    • “It feels like a real person who can’t respond to you.” That sentence perfectly summarizes my 30 years of sexual history with my Ex.

    • That’s exactly what I emailed my husband at one point after DDay on December 19th. That having fuck buddies was so much easier and more shiny because they don’t have opinions, boundaries, expectations, etc. you have to be delusional to compare me to that?

    • Yeah Sciortino seems pretty disordered. I watched that episode and the BDSM abduction one. The way she speaks seems like she is either high over drunk all the time…

  • First of all, gross. Like somebody further up pointed out, I can’t imagine the smell. And what if more than one person wanted to have sex with the same individual? How does that work out? I mean, are there douche bags available (other than the ones attending the orgy) for the women? Nothing says “hot” like a chick getting up to clean herself out after one guy before attending to another. Ick.

    I know a couple who are nudists, and have some sort of “agreement” in their marriage. Whatever. The woman seems to drive the nudism, and it is obvious she gets some sort of kick out of being, I dunno, naughty. Walking around naked in front of other people seems to feed that kick, and anybody not enlightened enough to understand the human body is inherently beautiful is a neanderthal.

    Look, maybe I’m a prude, overly modest, whatever. Maybe I’ve been horribly affected by the glossy photos on magazine showing me what beautiful people look like, and tacitly implying I am distinctly NOT one of them because I am not underweight and don’t have implants. But I am old-fashioned enough to think that my naked body should be enjoyed by only one person besides myself.

    My cheater got married, I think, so that he could have a regular supply of sex while engaging in additional sex on the side. Shhh! He just kept that bit of information a secret, since he knew he had agreed to monogamy.

    Regarding mammograms, HPV has been implicated in some forms of breast cancer (in addition to cervical cancer). Get it done, ladies.

    • HPV has also been tied to anal as well as head and neck cancers.

      Wrap it up or use dental dams !

  • I don’t get this gal’s logic.

    When you’re monogamous, you can be cheated on.
    Monogamy requires honest communication.
    But people cheat, so when you’re monogamous you must want to be lied to.
    With ground rules and communication, nonmonogamy can work.
    The writer has never had a successful monogamous relationship.
    Maybe nonmonogamy would work for her.

    If monogamy requires ground rules and communication to succeed, and nonmonogamy also requires ground rules and communication to succeed, why can’t this twit see it’s the ground rules and communication that are the key, not how good looking you are, how well dressed you are, or how many people you boink/want to boink you?

    What a superficial twit.

    • She IS a person who blogs about sex with a blow up doll though. How edgy. How modern.

      ….how do you clean it? The doll, that is?

      Her writing is click bait for a long trip on the toilet.

  • “Let’s not kid ourselves: adultery is rife” And it’s “rife” BECAUSE of people like the one who wrote the article and those perfect people who love their spouses, but also like fucking strangers at a party in some fancy NY penthouse. Can’t you just smell the superiority complex, smugness, condescension, and general air of “I’m better than you” floating off this writer and her cohorts? But I’ll bet it’s not quite strong enough to cover up the stench of all those “vetted” crotches going at it at the party.

    How did we arrive at a society where narcissism and hedonism are revered, and traits like responsibility, commitment, self respect, and humility are reviled as old-fashioned or being “repressed?” When I read stuff like the Vogue piece, I feel like I must be living in the wrong world.

    • Exactly how I think the people of Sodom and Gonorrah must have felt, all “evolved and superior”and shit. Man, did the karma bus hit them or what? Lol!

      Sorry for the snark, it’s just these narcs have been using the same playbook for centuries.

  • But THERE WERE CANAPES, Tracy… they have much more sophisticated appetites! #noappetizershere

    And SHE was invited to be a free prostitute among people with exacting standards of perfection! #humblebrag

    Hors d’oeuvres indeed. There’s some fun word play, here.

  • My X said I was prudish because I wasn’t open to all kinds of sexual encounter even though I would love to have a meaningful, intimate relationship with a good man. Hey, that’s me.

    But I might also be prudish because I’m interested in a lot more than just having sex all the time. Yeah, I’m religious, but I also value discipline and this sort of event sounds like a lot of indulgence without an ounce of discipline. I’m no disciplinarian either, but to be quite frank, I’ve got better things to fill up my time with than orgies. That doesn’t even sound fun to me. It sounds meaningless and passe, with a huge dose of reality in the morning and I’m not even referring to the massive hangover. Like CL, I would be on edge about STD’s, pregnancies, not to mention my own moral backbone. Running around naked (and I wouldn’t even cut muster) and boinking whomever while my extremities give hand jobs and foot jobs to the nearest people around myself and my partner of the moment doesn’t even sound remotely romantic.
    #thingsidon’tget

    • For a little while.

      Then it’s limp dick frustration coupled with kinky raging lust.

      Not sexy.

      Most people can’t ride that pony long without negative consequences.

  • I always wonder why sexuality gets a free pass. Try to put this into another context. Some idiot writes an article: “I have never been able to keep my mitts off other people’s money. The temptation to shoplift, to steal out of my trusting friends’ bank accounts… I mean, people leave their windows open in the summer and sometimes their valuables are in view. It’s unrealistic to expect people not to steal. So I went to this commune where everyone shares their property and nobody has private ownership of anything. I think THIS is the way to happiness. There would be no stealing if anyone at any time could take whatever they wanted. Everyone has looked at someone else’s property and wished it was theirs.”

    Okay, so many things wrong with that:

    1. Community ownership is not the same thing as stealing. It assumes that you AGREED to hold all things in common and that you willingly donated your private goods to the cause. It also assumes good faith–that you will abide by the rules of the community, not take more than your fair share, not hoard piles of loot under your bed, not vandalize community property, etc. It requires CONSENT and RULES to even minimally work. (And generally it fails in the long run for similar reasons to the failure of open marriages–people don’t abide by the rules or work toward community goals.)

    2. Just because you look over the fence and like the neighbor’s barbecue grill DOESN’T mean that you are a thief. As CL said, stop muddying the waters. Glancing at something and being attracted to it is not the same as hopping the fence, hoisting the barbecue grill on your back and carrying it off. Being attracted to someone other than your spouse is not the same as having an affair.

    3. You can’t use “community ownership” as an excuse for stealing other people’s stuff. Unless I agreed to share my barbecue grill with the neighbor (and we worked out an agreement for who gets it when and how it will be maintained), it is NOT the neighbor’s grill to take. I don’t need a lecture on the delights of commune living when I am looking at the empty space where my barbecue grill used to be. You want to live in a commune? Fine. But I don’t, and I want my damn grill back–the one I saved up six months to buy. I’m not “asking to be lied to” about where my grill went. It’s not unreasonable to expect my own stuff to stay in my own yard.

    I don’t know why adultery gets a free pass on this. You want an open marriage? Whatever. But I don’t want an open marriage. I’m not “asking to be lied to.” I don’t want lectures on the virtues of open marriages. I want my own private bedroom with my own private spouse. This was the agreement, and unless I consent to the open marriage, I shouldn’t have to have one.

    But I wonder really how many of us found the analogy with theft all too appropriate. People who cheat one way also cheat the other way. My cheater literally said to me that he was stealing money because he didn’t believe in the laws that prevented him from taking it. Basically he thought he ought to be permitted to make things “community property” as well as have an open marriage.

    • And one other thing about the barbecue grill analogy. How silly does this sound?

      “I didn’t MEAN to take the grill. It just happened!”

      With something like that, we recognize that this person had a lot of other choices, and that hopping a fence and hoisting a grill back over takes a whole lot of commitment to getting something that isn’t yours at someone else’s expense.

      And yet the RIC totally accepts that “I didn’t MEAN to fuck Suzie! It just HAPPENED!” can be true about adultery. Even thought it takes a lot more thought and planning than stealing a grill.

  • I am a bit confused by what the “most fun attractive crowd” are thinking when they issue an invitation to a newcomer, or what the newcomer is supposed to think. Are you fun and attractive enough to appreciate an invitation to have genital contact with any other fun attractive person at the party? Do you have any choice? Is it all hetero, or are you open to same sex forays, too? Is it saying you prefer genital contact with an unknown person over actual human contact with a known, and perhaps caring other human? I am trying to see where the fun is — moving from person to person, all action, no conversation, anyone can touch anything in any way, and with a group of 100 people there, what are the odds of STD’s being transmitted? What about contraception? What if you “do” someone, and the next day you realize that the person who is interviewing you for a job is the same one you casually bonked the night before? Will there be other expectations in the work place then? The whole situation seems full of danger and risk taking, all for the sake of having a “fun and attractive” boink.

    Call me old fashioned, but it doesn’t sound like fun to me. I actually enjoy conversation, and planning an enjoyable evening with someone I have come to know and desire. I actually get turned on when someone knows me well enough to make me laugh, or feel desired for who I am, not just because I am fun and attractive.

    I don’t think it is particularly hip either. I could have had anonymous sex in many places and as often as I wanted it if I had gone looking for Mr Goodbar when I was growing up. Enough alcohol and even folks who aren’t fun or attractive may seem to be at the moment. What about when you “wake up” sober? Do you live in the Land of Denial and plead Memory Loss, or acute inebriation then?

    Am I just too practical? Is it wrong for me to prefer to spend my time reading a book or watching a movie, or actually having an interesting conversation with someone, rather than boinking a stranger who thinks he is sophisticated and fun and attractive, and cutting edge, and so much more wonderful than I will ever be with my retro values? Oh well, just guess I have to live with it. As Tracy says, “Bummer.”

    • No- you are not a mindless hedonist with alligator brain.

      As old fashioned as it is- who gets to go inside our bodies should still be sacred.

      What if I found out the man I just let bang me (correct verb) tied his dogs up to a tree, or beat his wife and children or was one of those people who believe the Holocaust was a hoax?

      Or secretly supported Westboro Baptist Church???

      Vetting sexual partners=Smart

    • I’m with you, Portia. Why would I want to be some anonymous hole for some strange man’s pole when I could be having loving sex with my hubby, then lying in bed afterwards chatting for awhile about the books we are both reading before getting up to carry on with our life together? I love my “retro” values. My ex mocked me for being “boring” and would no doubt love a party like the one described in the Vogue article — I’m sure he’s been to plenty of orgies, but thankfully not with me — but that party sounds like a lonely place to me.

      • Chatting about books after a loving sexual experience?? Be still my librarian heart. That is my ultimate fantasy right there but I never imagined that it could really happen. You’re so lucky!

  • After years of emotional affairs and hints about how much happier he would be in an “open marriage”, I gave in and tried the polyamorous thing. He was happy for a while but then … lied about buying his girlfriend (s) expensive gifts oh, and turned out he wasn’t wearing a condom when he was having sex with his numerous girlfriends and prostitutes.
    Lied about the prostitutes too, until he was arrested. I saw myself reflected in the girls who were young, naive, and lacked self-confidence. Even before all the lies came out I was preparing to leave. The lying made it that much easier. I’m no longer that naive and shy girl. Thank god.

    But the lesson is once a cheater, always a cheater. Polyamory isn’t a cure for terrible character. Because it isn’t about the sex, it is the high of lying and manipulating people. Now he gets to live that single life all by himself 😀

    • “Polyamory isn’t a cure for terrible character. Because it isn’t about the sex, it is the high of lying and manipulating people.”

      It needed repeating.

  • Just what I’ve always longed for. Some stranger grabbing my boob with his sticky fingers after downing some shrimp cocktail, while some chick gives me oral after she’s had a gorgonzola stuffed fig.

    But seriously, this all just sounds so depraved. There’s a mighty deep hole to be filled in all these pods, in more ways than one!

    This narc over here was into sex partiss and swinging with one of his exs. Said he doesn’t think much about sex, as he’s seen someone fuck his wife (his ex).
    I don’t think these pods know shit about real intimacy. Never had, never will.
    The “enlightenment” is just a fancy way of saying “I’ll never get near these caliber of women otherwise, so let me act this out”.

    • And who comes up with the list of invitees anyway? Do you have to send in an application or be recommended by a friend or acquaintance? Do they want references? Do they look for diversity in terms of race, gender and sexual orientation? And does it get all out of whack if people don’t show and the ratios get skewed? So many questions beyond just “ick, why would anybody want to go there in the first place?”

  • One of my friends had a husband that demanded they “swing”.

    After the first experience, I asked her about it. Here is her exact quote:

    “You don’t know hell until you have seen your husband gobble another woman’s pussy”.

    • Ok, that’s my new meme, as the STBX wife of a Craigslist orgy goer (dumpster diving anyone?). I need to stay mad as hell and as disgusted as possible to get me through the next few weeks/mths for filing and selling the house, even if it means it triggers me.

  • Oddly enough, the only couple I knew IRL who went to orgies on a fairly regular basis — at least, the only couple I know who admit to it — were also extremely conservative, born-again Christians. At the time, I tried to wrap my head around the inconsistencies of that, but eventually I realized they were both completely batshit crazy alcoholics who emotionally abused their children and cheated on each other constantly. The most drama-filled existence imaginable. No surprise here — relatives of my ex.

  • Orgy smorgy/smorgasbord…
    ..
    I forgot (not really) to recommend a couple of books to Inconfusion who lives in France and is having trouble reconciling her values with those of zee French. One of the Parisian intellectuals detailed her sexual exploits during the sixties and beyond in a bestseller. She was lauded for a frank depiction of her libertine ways in an open relationship with her now husband. I read it expecting erotica and put it down feeling sadness and disgust. Her descriptions of group and anonymous sex were detached and cold. At times, I felt ill reading certain details.

    Her husband was content being a cuckold for years. Now the bloom is off her rose and it is payback time for hubby. Her second book “Jour de Souffrance” (really…only a day ?!) addresses her jealousy (sometimes physically violent) when he cavorts with much younger women. She was unable to have children (numerous bouts of stds I’m guessing/#noneedtof*ckupthenextgeneration) and I wonder how their relationship will progress as they grow older. She was one of cosigners against the #metoo movement in France which was deemed retrograde by younger French feminists. The wheels of change turn slowly.

    Love the cartoon Tracy ! Reminds of a photo shoot taken at a hedonisi vacation colony-guys with beer guts sporting Speedos and plump, cellulite ridden women wearing thongs ! EEEK!

    A tip for the pre-menopausal regarding the boob smashing-do it the week after your period. It won’t hurt as much

  • ” Who are these people?”

    we know who these people are. it’s barely worth saying out loud.

    i’m comfortable being judgemental in this case: people who are into orgies and open relationships are entitled, vain, selfish, one-dimensional and quite boring. being obsessed with sex is shallow, dull and not sexy.

    of course people at an orgy are going to be polite – they want to get into your pants later.

    can’t think of a worse way to spend a friday night than not only having sex in front of other people, but watching them do it too. fuck that.

  • Not much to add here except that this stuff is somehow very triggering for me. I get a such a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach imagining the mentality of people like this, like my ex. They’re just so severely damaged and twisted. I feel overwhelming pity and disgust for them. Sex with strangers is so compelling that they willingly sacrifice their precious families for it. It takes the breath from me. Godspeed to all who are forced to deal with these cretins.

  • I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume when they say “asking to be lied to”, that they are actually trying to say that many ignore all the signs (red flags) and spackle (denial) because to do otherwise would require that you take action. This would entail divorcing (the sane choice) OR putting your head in the sand and pretending it wasn’t happening, thereby confirming to yourself that you don’t actually deserve to be treated any better. Either one of those options is much more difficult than living in fantasyland, the land of delusion. Though I find the whole thought of sharing a partner with a roomful of strangers nauseating, it also feels wrong to compare a partner to a possession. People are not owned by anyone, married or not. I prefer to think of it as honoring an agreement to have an honest relationship. Though my ex BF was hot on the trail of sex with others, the thought quite honestly made me sick to my stomach. He spent nearly four years alternately badgering me, and trying to convince me that I did not have any idea what I was missing. This the same man who spent more time at his Romanian orthodox church than most priests, passing himself off as a church elder, and a man above reproach. No surprise that I eventually caught him in a web of lies. And once I had the first sniff of dishonesty, I ended it. Yes, I was still devastated, but only for the man who I thought he was. A little over a year later, and I now say good riddance! Not to Meh, but on my way!

    • It’s only fun if it’s WRONG WRONG WRONG.

      That’s why when they get exposed to the sunlight and fresh air, these great romances, secret lives, and chic addictions tend to crumble into dust, or slink off under rocks.

      The whole double-life thing is part of the thrill – fooling everyone. Because They’re Not The Boss of Me!

  • I think orgies sound disgusting: yes, even when overflowing with beautiful, wealthy people. However, if they were truly filled with consenting adults who were totally single, or whose partners were also joyously taking part, or who had given their explicit permission… FINE. People who are open and honest with everyone involved should do as they wish, and if that’s orgies then great but please leave us boring monogamous folk in peace. I honestly believe that.

    However, as great as it sounds in theory (people who want to fuck around – hang out only with others of your kind!), in practice it doesn’t happen that way, does it? Many of these orgy-goers also want the devoted, reliable spouses/partners, AS WELL, and feel entitled to (excited by, even) keeping a dirty little secret of their double life. There are all manner of sexual things I have no interest in (one night stands, anal, orgies, swinging, breath-play) but am happy if those who are, find each other and indulge to their hearts’ content. It just seems like many people cannot be relied upon to be honest from the get-go and that’s where the problem lies.

  • Having read today’s post – which is the most anaphrodisiac thing I have read in a long time – I can safely say that I think I have been put off sex for life.

    I am perfectly healthy and physically active, and probably happier than I’ve ever been in my life. I would be really glad to sit and talk for a couple of hours about stuff with you, preferably with a good meal as well. But then I’m going to my own bed, where I’m going to sleep all night.

    Beth and mg, you’re right – these people are suffering from terrible emptiness inside.

    I’ve found that with sex, you use it or lose it. But it all comes down to HOW you use it.

    If you feed it like a field of wheat, slowly over time with the right stuff, it will feed you both in return.

    If you feed it as a wild animal, constantly throwing it chunks of meat, it will keep coming back for more, and then it will devour you. (Like that old story about the wolves inside you).

    If you aren’t constantly scratching that itch – feeding it with porn, affairs, addiction, romantic fantasy, all fed by your own inner emptiness and craving for other people to fill your sexual need – then your sexual desire really does shrink down to manageable proportions, very quickly.

    Good advice, if you plan to remain consciously uncoupled. Otherwise, you risk letting loneliness driving you into another bad choice.

  • “But it all comes down to HOW you use it.” That is my thought too, Lola. To me, the most important element of sex is emotional intimacy, not physical release. My ex never understood that because he isn’t capable of intimacy. Physical gratification is the easy part. I think that’s why it’s so easy for serial cheaters to do what they do. If you never feel the emotional component, how can you miss it? Or maybe they sense something is missing but not what the missing element is so they try to fill the void with quantity instead of quality. Until I was divorced I had only had sex with my ex. Since the divorce I had a fling with a nice man who I liked but didn’t love which proved to me that sex with a partner who is interested in being with you rather than just acting out some sick fantasy on your body is good, but still not what I want. I’m holding out for the emotional intimacy that I crave but have never experienced. Without it, sex is just scratching an itch and I can do that by myself.

    • Same here. I can now look back and say that is what I was missing the whole marriage… That intimacy. He was willing to give the objectified sex but there was never any intimacy.

    • Beth,
      I recently embarked on a post-marriage relationship with a lot of emotionally intimate sex, with someone who I hadn’t seen in 20 years but was someone I had dated in my youth. It is truly the first time as an adult I’ve experienced that. It is worth holding out for. Now, I wonder why I ever bothered with the other kind of physically based sex. Maybe it’s lightening in a bottle when two people can connect that way, I dunno. But I wish it for you and everyone here at CN. It’s transformative. It’s the difference between surviving of McDonalds cheeseburgers, which we all have been doing, and thriving on a New York steak dinner with all the fixings. I had no idea. What a gift it’s been.

      • To note: he and I are both middle aged squidy non-model types. There is nothing “NY orgy worthy” in our appearances. And that matters not one but. Being sexy and being modern-day hot (with the CrossFit 6 pack and perfectly coifed hair) are not analogous. I love his middle aged body and he loves mine. I hadn’t a clue this was possible as I had been with someone who wanted me to look like I lived in a beer commercial. The freedom that come with finally accepting your imperfect body as sexy is amazing.

        • That sounds AMAZING. Emotionally intimate, squidgy, middle-aged sex is all that I aspire to in life. 🙂 Good for you, NANC!

  • All this “evolved” orgy talk makes me wonder if I’m the deviant for enjoying one-to-one intimate and deep, emotionally connected sex with someone who you adore and who adores you, and just exploring that landscape. Maybe those of us who feel the best sex goes well beyond the physical are just sicko freaks!

  • As a woman who got gonorrhea from my cheating husband, I cringe when it comes to orgies. It’s just disgusting to think about with all the STDs out there.

  • Slutever! OMG, LMAO!
    Chump Lady you r freaked hilarious! Don’t be mad but I do steal some of your vocabulary.

    And if I might add. If you are going to orgies, why even be married? I mean really, what is the point?

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