Stay in Touch

Check out CL's Book

UBT: What Sleeping with Married Men Taught Me About Infidelity

Oh Modern Love, what-the-everliving-fuck? A bazillion of you sent me Sunday’s New York Time’s ML column — a look at relationships from the point of view of a 49-year-old woman who screws married men. Because… well, you know how it goes after divorce, when you create Tinder profiles for no-strings-attached sex, and lonely, tragically misunderstood, sexless men reply by the dozens, and you fuck a few, and it confers relationship expert status upon you. Yeah that.

I always enjoy being condescended to about how my relationships need honesty and  intimacy from someone who prefers clandestine NSA hook-ups with guys named SpankyBoy57.

I’m not sure it’s possible to justify my liaisons with married men, but what I learned from having them warrants discussion. Not between the wives and me, though I would be interested to hear their side. No, this discussion should happen between wives and husbands, annually, the way we inspect the tire tread on the family car to avoid accidents.

Don’t mind little ol’ me fucking yer husband there. You two just discuss my Learned Insights amongst yourselves. They warrant discussion. Unlike your feelings about it, which warrant no mention at all. #fuckingURhusbandmakes meanexpert #gravitas

Yes, Karin Jones would like to hear from those wives on “the other side” but alas, the NYT has conveniently disabled comments, so she’ll just have to imagine all your hearts and kisses.

The important takeaway here is that keeping your husband faithful is much like inspecting your tire treads on the family car… that is, if your Goodyear radials were missing and hiding on someone else’s Buick.

Anyway… Karin has written an essay entitled “What Sleeping With Married Men Taught Me About Infidelity.” Let’s guess.

Crab lice?

That “sleep” is a euphemism? (Unless you pay for the girlfriend experience.)

That everything you “learned about infidelity” you learned from a liar?

A few years ago, while living in London, I dated married men for companionship while I processed the grief of being newly divorced. I hadn’t sought out married men specifically. When I created a profile on Tinder and OkCupid, saying I was looking for no-strings-attached encounters, plenty of single men messaged me and I got together with several of them. But many married men messaged me too.

Imagine that. Many men — married and unmarried — replied to an online profile offering no-strings-attached sexual encounters. Wow. Way to gain a following, Karin. Russian Twitterbots have nothing on you.

And I totally get where you’re coming from on the sex-only thing, which is why you date married men for “companionship.”

After being married for 23 years, I wanted sex but not a relationship. This is dicey because you can’t always control emotional attachments when body chemicals mix, but with the married men I guessed that the fact that they had wives, children and mortgages would keep them from going overboard with their affections. And I was right. They didn’t get overly attached, and neither did I. We were safe bets for each other.

I blame the body chemicals, Drak Noir and Fancy Feast. I also blame the mortgages. The men would go overboard with their affections, were it not for those mortgages. Wives and children can be replaced, but a 3.25% fixed rate?

I asked him: “What if you said to your wife, ‘Look, I love you and the kids but I need sex in my life. Can I just have the occasional fling or a casual affair?’”

He sighed. “I don’t want to hurt her,” he said. “She’s been out of the work force for 10 years, raising our kids and trying to figure out what she wants to do with her life. If I asked her that kind of question, it would kill her.”

I asked him: “What if you left your wife for me, then we could companion all the time! And you and me and Fluffy and Snowball could be a family! And sit on my sofa and watch Father Brown reruns! And you could take me to that wedding and introduce me as your cousin!”

He sighed: “You’re just an orifice to me, Karin. My wife has been out of the workforce for 10 years, raising our children. Her economic vulnerability gives me carte blanche to fuck around on her. Why would I trade alimony and child support for your cat hair-covered ass?”

But sex is basic. Physical intimacy with other human beings is essential to our health and well-being. So how do we deny such a need to the one we care about most? If our primary relationship nourishes and stabilizes us but lacks intimacy, we shouldn’t have to destroy our marriage to get that intimacy somewhere else. Should we?

Karin had to do it because those men WEREN’T GETTING SEX!! Not a smidgeon! Not even a fleeting glimpse at wifely ankle! And how does Karin know? Because cheating men who created anonymous dating profiles on the Interwebs told her so. They were also misunderstood and please don’t call them on the weekends because Bible study.

These men shouldn’t have to destroy their marriages because you won’t put out, Wifey! Have a conversation! Kick the tire threads! Suck a dick occasionally! Karin Jones is now an authority with a voice in the New York Times because you’re frigid! And that’s tragic. She doesn’t want this kind of attention, but she must Share What She Learned so preventable bald tire/bald man-slut accidents don’t happen.

And just to be fair, it’s not the women who are all frigid, causing their men to cheat. Men, some of you are a little less than adventurous. Put down that stamp collection and listen to Karin.

If you read the work of Esther Perel, the author of the recently published book “State of Affairs,” you’ll learn that, for many wives, sex outside of marriage is their way of breaking free from being the responsible spouses and mothers they have to be at home. Married sex, for them, often feels obligatory. An affair is adventure.

If you read the work of Esther Perel, you might want to boil your head like a Christmas pudding and stick a spike of holly through your cranium.

Men, fucking you feels obligatory. Your wives need adventure. You don’t get adventure, you have stamps.

She needs the kind of positive affirmation and adventure that can only come from antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea. Fucking strange is never obligatory, unless you’re Karin Jones, in which case it is. (THE SEXLESS MEN NEED SAVING!)

And antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea cannot be cured, unless you’re Esther Perel, in which case it’s invisible. Unlike Esther Perel who is all too visible and inspiring stupid articles like this one in the New York Times.

I am not saying the answer is non-monogamy, which can be rife with risks and unintended entanglements. I believe the answer is honesty and dialogue, no matter how frightening. Lack of sex in marriage is common, and it shouldn’t lead to shame and silence. By the same token, an affair doesn’t have to lead to the end of a marriage. What if an affair — or, ideally, simply the urge to have one — can be the beginning of a necessary conversation about sex and intimacy?

What these husbands couldn’t do was have the difficult discussion with their wives that would force them to tackle the issues at the root of their cheating. They tried to convince me they were being kind by keeping their affairs secret. They seemed to have convinced themselves. But deception and lying are ultimately corrosive, not kind.

Gee, I wonder why these men and women won’t have this conversation? Isn’t it amazing that they can craft dating profiles, and get naked with strangers, and yet lack the courage to TALK honestly? Mind. BLOWN. It’s almost like… like… they don’t want to be honest.

Tut, tut. Deception and lying are corrosive and unkind. Fucking your husband? Not so much.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
  • I have come to wonder what happened to the soul of the NY Times? It’s stuff like these articles that keeps me from subscribing to that paper.

    • Absolutely – in fact this pathetic piece is the final straw, I’m cancelling my online subscription. I can’t believe this is the same newspaper which publishes such great political commentary and quirky articles like one on the beautiful use of semi-colons (complete with commentary from Noam Chomsky!)

    • Because articles like this tell cheating men that it’s their wives’ fault for not putting out. Men Need Sex you see and who cares if running around after three kids and picking shit-stained underwear off the bathroom floor has murdered their wives’ sex drive? And the cheater in this example is *trying* to spare his poor tired unemployed wife’s feelings, he can’t tell her “I want to fuck around with other people”, that would *kill* her, poor sausage simply can’t bring himself to talk to her about his needs etc.

      • Why would a wife who has no sex drive care if her husband is getting his legitimate sexual needs met outside the marriage? Obviously, sex must not be important to the marriage (otherwise the wife would be “putting out” as you say). Why should she care if he does that “unimportant thing” with another woman?

        • Don’t assume anything, because you don’t know their minds. Lack of communication is a killer in relationships.
          In Marriage… If you can’t tell your Spouse that you’re unhappy with the sex/intimacy, then you need to find your voice, and tell them. If you have told your Spouse, but they don’t care to acknowledge the loss/rebuild that connection… Find your way out.
          Seriously, go… Because staying and cheating is disrespectful to you, your Spouse, and especially children.

        • Tom, I don’t think men tell the truth about this when they are trying to get a woman in bed with them. It’s basically ridiculous that a woman who had no-string attached sex with strangers thinks she can comment on the marriages of these guys.

    • Can we please NOT divert the conversation into dissing the NYT? It’s one crappy article. They’re an esteemed newspaper that’s not immune to clickbait. Part of my pissed-offedness with the NYT is that I think they should be better than this.

      The article is illogical, poorly written, and IMO amoral. No wonder we can’t discuss it.

        • Main summation: ‘Well if you got cheated on you failed; your husband just needed more. You’re great you’re just… not great enough. I’m great enough though. Go me!’

          The writer is trying to feel better – I think she sees that she’s a sad vacuous hole, little better than a flesh light or blow up doll. And like clockwork, this article shows that she’s likes to get paid to put out. (in accolades or comfort or physical response or in the case of this article, hard cash).

          Frankly NYT are no different from others-they pay for clickbait garbage articles from cheap (apparently deluded) contractors on all subjects to use up our monthly ‘free articles’ so the actual news is only a subscription away! Times are tough in the news industry.

        • Wow CL-I didn’t know that we aren’t allowed to comment how we please for the most part here. You are TELLING us we cannot dissect or even discuss the NYT? Ugh

          • I think it is fair and reasonable for ChumpLady to ask us to stay on topic. Reading the straying replies to her request affirms the reasonableness of her request in my opinion.

            There are other forums for discussing Hillary vs Donald, NYT vs Fox, Men vs. Women stereotypes, rap music lyrics getting a pass on misogyny, etc

      • It’s not just one article, Tracy. They had a piece a few years ago in the wedding section about a couple that had an affair and left th it spouses for each other. There was another Modern Love piece where the wife decided not to “accept” her husband’s claim that he wanted a divorce; it was obvious he was cheating, but she just keeps her mouth shut until the affair probably cooled off and he changed his mind about divorce.

        And let’s not forget the Op-Ed on why we should be more understanding toward pedophiles. The NYT’s Editor’s Choice comments didn’t include any of the critical comments.

      • I understand why this is not the best forum for trashing the NYT, but they publish this shit all the time and as someone else pointed out, there is a social engineering component here that we are all fighting. This editorial underscores our society’s acceptance of cheating, actually its endorsement, being promoted by a major news source. NYT could publish any number of amazing things–yet here it is.

        I just read the worst ever editorial today on NYT about an older woman’s disillusionment with marriage and relationships and what can only be described as her willingness to settle again and again and again. And how even after the death of her man-boy husband, she is yet again settling into a kind of sad acceptance of her irrelevancy. Maybe I’m just too optimistic for the NYT, not edgy enough…too Californian, but why in the world would they use their platform to promote female subservience and irrelevancy in this way?!? Why promote cheating? So yea, I think they suck a little.

      • ChumpLady, have you tried to get a piece published in the NY Times? If people can’t comment on the article, why not at least present a variety of viewpoints – there are so many topics here on your blog – the real pain of being cheated on, the lies cheaters tell to the public, the feeling of betrayal by friends who don’t want to take sides, the bad advice of some therapists, cheaters who forgive themselves, etc.

        What if for every letter from an OW, there was one from a chump giving alternative advice?

    • The NYT disables or doesn’t provide space for comments on certain stories because they know that they will get pushback. It’s a way to ram social engineering down our throats. I teach at a university and see the same thing here: liberal orthodoxies that cannot be challenged. And it pains me to say “liberal” orthodoxies, because I’ve always been one. But let me tell you, over time and with experience–living in a black neighborhood, losing a family member to the war in Afghanistan, having my spouse decide he’s “transgendered”–I have come to have a far more critical and nuanced take on the soft racism of low expectations, the deleterious effects to our democracy of absolving 99% of the nation’s citizens from any civic responsibility, and the insanity of declaring that one can “identify” as the opposite sex or “be” that opposite sex just by declaring that one has. I almost shudder to think what life lesson I’m going to forced to learn next. But I sure I hope Ms Karin gets a chance to learn one about sex with cheaters soon!

      • Understandable you are upset about what your spouse did to you ref deception. But please don’t diss our LGBTQ community. Not cool. All Chumps are welcome here.

        • Thanks for saying this. The comment got to me too. People in the throws of trauma deserve a lot of slack, but…yea, transgender doesn’t work that way

        • Datdamwuf: TfM is not commenting on trans individuals or any true medical diagnosis or treatment for gender dysphoria, including the option of transitioning via surgery, hormones, and living ones life out as the opposite sex.

          TfM is commenting on the pseudo science being put forth by “activists” about the nature of biological sex and how it relates (or doesn’t relate) to gender identity. In short, it’s a political agenda being pushed by certin interested parties who want to socially engineer society, no matter how anti-science or how repressive their positions are to other people (like forcing some people to use certain words by law). People who push back or argue against certain “facts” circulating in the ‘activist’ community are conflated with transphobes.

          Everything stated above has nothing to with any persons freedom to live their own best life according to their own choices (and medical treatment options), being protected equally under the law and having the same rights as everyone else. It also makes no judgments on those who have been deceived by a spouse or partner.

        • Datdamwuf – I think this is a very difficult issue. Family members of transgender people often have their sense of reality denied when it comes to what is going on with the person who is transitioning.

          It’s very hard for our society to listen when a relative questions what is going on with a person who develops gender dysphoria, but I think it’s important to listen and believe what they are saying.

      • Trying for Mighty – You are right, your husband is not in some magical way really a woman. However, they may be experiencing real dysphoria and unhappiness living as a man and feel a strong urge to be a woman. Transition may be the only thing that will work for them. And the bottom line is you can’t stop them.

        What is very confusing is that some trans women are not particularly “feminine” before they transition and may live as men and act like typical men in our society. We don’t understand why this is, but there are some people who develop gender dysphoria at puberty. The model of transgender people being “women trapped in men’s bodies” just doesn’t apply to everyone.

        Also, you have every right to be upset if they didn’t tell you about this before you got married.

        This whole thing totally sucks for you. You are losing a marriage and someone you loved and you aren’t gaining anything from it. It depends on your friends, but sometimes family members of trans people find that people don’t get that you need support. People who are liberal sometimes don’t get it at all because they are trying to be supportive of the person who is transitioning and can’t figure out how to support families, too.

        It’s not unusual to be deeply depressed. I hope you are getting the support you need.

        Anyhow, here are a few links you might like: – This one has a lot about women who stay with their husbands/wives, but it also has discussion of some of the difficult issues.

    • This is the same paper home to David Brooks. (CL wrote about him a few times.) I canceled NYT last year. They’re not the only game in town.

  • Once again, Chump Lady nails it. This sentence is the doublespeak climax of this woman’s argument: “”I believe the answer is honesty and dialogue, no matter how frightening.” The fact that a NY Times editor got to this sentence and still printed this piece of garbage says all you need to know about the NY Times.

    This woman already knows that married men answering this ad and others like it means they are already lying by omission and prepared to lie in specific and in earnest to their wives. The very act of infidelity rests on lies and more lies. Karin seems to understand that the wives of these men will be devastated being betrayed (after all, the men acknowledge that knowing the truth will “kill” their wives), although she is a champion minimizer. After all, she’d be “interested to hear their side.” Because, after all, what’s more delicious to a narcissist than hearing how central you are to someone else’s marriage?

    As CL points out, the giant logical hole in the argument is that the article assumes that the men who are lying to their wives are being honest with her about the state of their marriages Either the writer is gaslighting us, because she knows very well that these men are lying to her about the sad, sexless state of their marriages, which suggests that the NY Time is gaslighting us, too. Or she’s so stupid it’s never occurred to her that she’s sleeping with people who have no operational acquaintance with the truth, which suggests that the NY Times editor who let this piece of garbage pass is also stupid.

    At a deeper and less obvious level, it’s not just that she was willing to pursue sex with married men. She spent time chit-chatting with them on the phone. The sex is the sparkly aspect of the triangle, the one that gets Karin published in the Times. But the chit-chatting about the wives and the kids, the “friendship” with the men she’s having sex with, the intrusion into even the emotional intimacy that the spouse relies on is just as destructive and chilling.

    I have other very serious critiques of the NY Times that mean I don’t subscribe and only read to see the damage that perhaps once-great newspaper is doing to the country. But articles like these confirm that there is something very wrong at the highest levels at that paper. And they know it, hence the absence of a comment feature.

    • I subscribe to The NYT and read it daily, as I find it to be one of the best newspapers in the country. One opinion piece is not going to cause me to cancel a subscription, particularly given what is happening in the world today. It is far, far from a rag. In fact, it has one of the best news departments in the country.

      I do not agree with the basic premise of this woman’s argument, however, which is that the cheaters she has “slept with” are telling her the truth about the state of their marriage. Don’t all cheaters claim they aren’t getting laid at home? If a cheater is lying to his spouse, the person who they are supposed to love, what makes this woman think she is getting the truth? Cheaters are liars and anything that comes out of their mouth is a lie.Therein lies the fundamental flaw in this woman’s opinion.

      • My late father worked for the NY Times for forty years. It was always a liberal paper but it has gone to the extreme. I agree that it used to be a NEWS paper. It is no more than a propaganda sheet. My father is rolling over in his grave. (He used to do the crossword puzzle with a PEN)

        • I disagree, but this is not the forum to discuss the merits of the NYT. The propaganda I am worried about is that coming from alt-right “news” sources, not the factual reporting usually found in The Times. This opinion piece is nothing more than fluff, and certainly does not change my view of its otherwise outstanding reporting.

      • What reasons would they have to lie to her? Generally, human beings do not resort to lying when nothing is at stake. It is a bit shortsighted to assume that someone who lies to their spouse would do the same to someone they were having a casual affair with. The very real fear of losing one‘s family and entire life is reason enough to lie, but there are no reasons at all for lying to to someone that has no part in your everyday life. This is why many people feel more at ease talking to strangers about their emotional states than to those close to them. No repercussions, no reasons to lie.

        • dear Ginger, the answer is: they wanted to fuck her. saying “i’m just cheating on my wife for kicks and i have sex once a week at home” does not trigger the “oh, poor man. he is a good husband with needs” feeling.

          new info for you: men lied to get her into bed. because, even in the “no-strings-attached-sex”, it’s easier to ‘bang’ someone that does not think you are a total jerk. 😉

    • ”I believe the answer is honesty and dialogue, no matter how frightening.” The fact that a NY Times editor got to this sentence and still printed this piece of garbage says all you need to know about the NY Times.”

      The fact the NYT would not allow dialogue in the form of comments comes across, as, uhm, hypocritical? I think they were well aware of the pushback they would get, and didn’t want to hear it, because it doesn’t feed the narrative they want to jam down our throats.

    • Whether they are trying to do so or it is just a collateral effect of their apparent need for clicks, having this garbage published by NYT absolutely supports cheaters in viewing their behaviors as modern, chic, edgy, sophisticated … pick your adjective. I am more upset at NYT than Karin because my expectations were higher. Oh well.

    • Nancy is reading my mind. I’m so tired of the normalizing & promotion of the “option” of an affair. Like our society isn’t already in the hand basket enough speeding toward hell. What’re the chances of my last love not being the cheater?

  • This Karin Jones is nothing but a hooker on the corner.
    How NY Times can publish her article & pay her for it is mind boggling!

    One reason I don’t subscribe to the rag.

    • I would like to save this link to send to people who argue in favor of legalizing sex work to illustrate how there’s no need for people to pay for sex, because, hey, Karin. ????

      Any person who advocates sex with a person who is known to be lying to a partner is, by default, advocating assault and risking advocacy of manslaughter.

    • I agree on her being a corner hooker, we should rename the New York Times to N.Y.H times. She gets it all the time, never good news, always bad news. ????

  • Oh Karin. I sucked dick like a unhinged inhabitant of whore island AND had bold, many positioned sexual escapades with my husband right up until he got caught in a weird relationship with another gal. Who apparently had “sexual issues”, so she was fragile and couldn’t perform properly without being “properly loved”.
    Turns out she was nuts and frigid and many assorted other things- but that’s not my problem now. We had many “conversations” – it didn’t stop my ex from savoring the delightful joy of deceiving his family and “winning”.

    • Oh Karin. My ex’s affair partner looked him right in the eye and asked if he was having sex with me, and he looked her right in the eye and lied. You see, he felt he had a duty to protect her feelings while he was fucking both of us while trying to decide if he should torpedo his family. She doesn’t need to decide for herself if she wants to keep fucking a married man who’s still fucking his wife… gosh, that might hurt her! Gee maybe some honest conversations would have stopped her from stealing then marrying a lying cheater. Wait I must have this wrong, because he would never lie to HER, right? ((Karin you dumb fuck you are being lied to as well! You know you’re fucking liars! Why do you think they’re not lying to you?))

      • Yes, and oh Karin, what you may not be aware of, as you pontificate to us from your bent-over-the-podium position, is how many millions of us have not only had countless “honest and intimate conversations”, they have done so at great cost and with the aid of so-called experts, they have done so drawing on their very deepest reserves of commitment having already been blindsided by betrayal and devastated by deceit, they have done so even having endured indescribable degradation of themselves and everything they hold central in life – only to be deceived, betrayed and degraded all over again, often literally as these conversations took place.

        A prerequisite for the arrogance of NPD, the kind Karin displays here, is a level of obtuseness that would choke even her capable throat. Narcs are quite literally always anointing their own thoughts as glowingly brilliant because in their obtuseness they receive no cognitive hint that they are utterly out of their depth. They have no ability to grasp any context for themselves beyond themselves. They are always and forever their own complete context, happily skating about on the thin ice of their unsensed ignorance. And so, an online skank, being fucked for free by a bunch of lying pieces of shit, can fancy herself the font of wisdom on anything.

        • Agree, agree, agree. Read the article and felt like I was spitting fire. WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT. The article, the cheating men, and the particular piece of crap who wrote the article and is totally deluded. Does she think she is doing a public service or does she realize that she is just a cum receptacle? Sorry to be so gross but this article was grossly lacking in conscious, ethics, reality….

    • The problem, as I see it, is that my mouth and other orifices all belonged to just me, and no matter how often they were offered up, it was the same meal, and he wanted a buffet. So he convinced himself (I believe this!) that he was entitled to steak, and was only getting cold sandwiches at home. God only knows what he told the OW and others. And yet, when he hears I have told somebody, he jumps in with, “there are two sides to every story!” and wants the opportunity to tell his. From the guy who spun whatever lies he could to keep his kibble supply intact. Nope. His turn to eat the shit sandwich.

      Karin, we had been in MC before. His “open dialogue” included hiding from me and the MC that he was having a primary affair with the OW, and also engaging in hookups on Craiglist and other dating sites. Who knows? Maybe Karin was one of them. Hey, Karin, get checked for HPV!

      • To tag onto your analogy… I stopped wanting to cook after my husband tried putting his roast into my cold oven one too many times. “What, you need foreplay AGAIN?”

        • I stopped trying to cook after the 10 millionth argument about how YES he had to wear a condom since kids weren’t an option right now. And NO I can’t go on the pill, it makes me fat and moody.

          • Interesting that the male pill works except it makes some men depressed. No one seemed to care about the female pill that had “side effects”. Somehow there is something odd about that. Some women reported that they lost sex drive on a bc pill. To my thinking it is like somethings not right.

      • OMG. I read this amazing book by a woman who thought she was in a happy marriage only to have her husband tell her he was not happy. Then he admitted he was having an affair. Then he was going back and forth between her and the other woman. Finally, she told him she couldn’t take it. He moved in with the other woman.

        So, I looked the author up, I looked the ex husband up, and I looked up the other woman. Turns out, the ex and the other woman have been married for over 20 years now. And the other woman was the author of a piece in the NY Times that had actually made me scream in frustration.

        But the part that blows my mind is that the man in question, the one who moved from one wife to the next, has the gall to say, “there are two sides to every story” whenever anyone mentions what he had done to the previous wife.

        I believe that there ARE two sides to every story. But for fuck’s sake how hard is it to end the first relationship before starting the next? And what difference does the other side of the story make in cases like this?

    • “…an unhinged inhabitant of whore island..” (I’m crying from laughing so hard!) Hahahahahaha!

    • Yep. I’m a freak in the bed when given the option. But instead I got a guy who begged off that he was ‘tired’ allllll the time and thought it was more worthwhile to jack it to online garbage or some slut from work.

      Now I have no desire. My girly bits are broken and sad. I am the literal definition of no-fucks-togive.

      • Creative, I believe most of us were great in the sack. Where it started going south was the fact that our spouses were lying to us (even when I couldn’t guess what X was up to ie “at the club” or “working late,” my body knew and yeah I didn’t find him too attractive then either), or were jacking off to porn (mine did this when I wanted sex! ‘cause it’s easier to just please yourself rather than “work” at pleasing another but again these people and intimacy never go hand in hand anyway), hooking up on line (oh! the joys of anonymous holes), or just tiptoeing around with an affair partner. I do believe “secret”and “new” is the preferred norm for the disordered because they are wired that way. Cheaters get off on the fact they are sneaking around, deluding people, and feel entitled (“no one is the boss of me!”). No matter how hot, adventurous, etc,etc, etc! we all are, when someone chooses to cheat we are no longer playing a game we can win. Funny thing though, when I married I knew what my vows meant. I was married for twenty years and sex never grew old. Sex never grew more intimate with X (red flag) and I didn’t get enough(another red flag!) and yes, he was selfish…. I was all in, until he wasn’t. Then sex was crap. I know now he was fucking us both, sans protection a la Trump, but I digress…. IMHO, Honesty is a turn on, respect is a turn on, growing old (and more intimate) is a turn on, but these truths never work for the disordered. There is no communication or great sex in a marriage when one partner is being dishonest. X secretly fucking others wasn’t so great for my marriage either.

    • EXACTLY this! If we were sexually adventurous, then they jumped ship for someone who was fragile. If we were young, they were old. Or vice versa. Or they used Head and Shoulders shampoo instead of our Pantene. — There’s always a fucking excuse “why” this “Other thing” was better. The specifics of the excuse are utterly irrelevant, which is something Karin has failed to pick up on because she only knows what she’s told from exactly the sort of person who would do this sort of thing.

  • Hookers are smarter than her. They know how to run a business and turn a profit from stupid lonely men who just aren’t understood and need “companionship”. I have more respect for an escort than a run of the mill two cent slut like this one.

    If any one of these flaming assholes put half of their energy back into the marriage instead of spending their free time trolling for pussy their lives might actually be worth living.

    Instead of dating sites try coaching your kid’s soccer team?!?! Instead of hooking up with other lost souls from the land of ME, help your wife around the house / I bet she’ll be excited and put out!!!

    If this is the best that the NY Times can come up with, it’s a sad day for journalism. I felt like I was reading FB fodder.

    Need more coffee…

      • Eh, we have chumps here who can verify that cheaters will find people to cheat with as they coach the soccer team or the basketball team or the drama club. Cheaters cheat. That’s the real takeaway from Karin Jones and her drivel. None of this cheater drama is really about sex. They lie. They can’t commit. They dirty what they touch.

        • LovedaJackass:

          Yep, you’re right on! One of the 14 AP’s my XH was boinking was our triplet sons’ soccer Team Mom! She gave the boys Rice Krispies treats and Gatorade, and the coaches (XH was a coach) hot pussy on demand.

        • Cheaters lie to everyone! I find it funny that Karin would think these lying, cheating husbands would be honest with her. Maybe she isn’t as intelligent as she thinks she is.

        • Yup, scout leader. 20 years with me and 2 kids, plus his 2 whore’s on the side and setting up a business with one of them using our kids savings…… Then he stole my boots to give to his most gillie slag for Christmas. She knew and still helped him break up his family…. Getting to meh!

        • Skanks like Karin all think they have the golden twat, they really think it’s something more special than the guys wife. They really think that the load of bullshit he’s feeding her must be real and she must be really really really more special than the wife for him to want to give her his waffle mix (sorry I heard this on a comedy channel) lol… I think I like the other poster comment better “receptacle”. Because Karin someone on a youtube channel said it best 1) if a guy has steak he does not want the asparagus (affair partner) 2) a guy can screw you and not remember your name later….so you really really aren’t that special to him. While you now wonder if you can screw your way into his heart, he, on the other hand could really give two shits he just wants sex and he will go on with his life after he dumps you as if you never existed…..chew on that Karin

      • Didn’t someone’s spouse on here already try that and ended up fucking the assistant coach? Nothing stops a cheater.

        • Raising my hand here for that one CIR. Almost 50 year old Dr. Cheaterpants volunteer coaching DD14 in our kids’ Catholic High School. Decided to run off with 20-something asst sports coach into the twu wuv sunset. No shame, no morals. The previous asst was a lesbian, although he did become her BFF. She used to joke she never thought her best friend would be a 50 year old man. He also befriended a male coach in his early 20’s. I was the designated driver while old man and 2 young adults (prior to this schmoopie) went out drinking all night.
          I never could grasp why he always hung out with all these young folks. NARC!!! He needed these people to look up to him and admire him.

          The first schmoopie that I knew about was when our kids were 2 & 4 years old. Howorker, twice divorced, history of cheating on both husbands, nicknamed ‘crazy’ by her coworkers. I didn’t know about her, but she did about me. Dr. Cheaterpants and I work in the same hospital, same dept, different divisions. We use all the same support services. Isn’t he a special sparkly dick? As I type this, I was such an idiot to ever take that fucker back!!

          • twiceachump, the idiots-who-take-them-back club is big. The 4 years in my name tells you how long between D-Day #1 and #2.

            Please be kind to yourself. Many of us did the same stupid thing. We didn’t know better then.

            I’m so sorry for what that asshole Dr. Cheaterpants did to you! Hoping the karma bus hits him hard in his nutular area (that’s medical terminology).

    • I don’t have more respect for an escort. I don’t care whether or what people exchange. Deliberately participating in deception is what it is whether money changes hands or not.

      • Amiisfree, you are spot on! I kinda think that escorting is worse. Granted, there are many, many involuntary and trafficked sex workers out there. My opinion does not apply to them. However, all of the escorts my husband fucked were independent providers who promoted themselves as intelligent, classy, willing participants who were empowered by their choices and who loved the sex they had with their “clients.” They offered themselves up as fantasy made flesh: physical and emotional salvation. My husband actually believed that they were his friends. He reached out to them for support and solace even AFTER we reconciled. They convinced him that they cared, then they took OUR money. I was the one who had to break it to him that they cared because he paid them to care, not because they actually liked him. I think he was genuinely hurt and humiliated to finally realize it. He was (is) and idiot and a narcissistic asshat. But I digress… Those kinds of escorts are not stupid women. They choose to profit from human pain and misery, and in turn, they ensure a steady income stream by helping to generate even more pain and misery in their clients, and their client’s families.

    • “If any one of these flaming assholes put half of their energy back into the marriage instead of spending their free time trolling for pussy their lives might actually be worth living.”

      Lucky, old friend…this is the truth that I live and process here at CL/CN.

      My nowdeadcheater hated life and hated marriage and was sure his misery was my fault since I was the person he was married to. From what I have been able to reconstruct from the disaster scene which was his short life, your words were the singular key that he never considered.

      I took a HUGE toke off of the hopium pipe shortly before he died when he interacted with a couple who had a great deal of love between them…he told me that he admired their relationship and I immediatly had visions that he would learn that devotion and commitment come first and the fruits follow and he would be “that guy” and we would be so happy and bonded… but alas, he lost interest in that whole idea in minutes (or perhaps remembered that his years of cheating were a stumbling block to real intimacy) and forgot the whole idea.

      • Hello Unicornomore XOXO….

        So HAPPY that you finally have the life you deserve. It’s been a very long haul for many of us xoxo

        Just an update. Bought a little fixer-upper at the beach. Kid’s love it.

        Finished school and slowly building up my own business.

        Taking things one day at a time ????

        • Love love it ! So glad to hear you are doing well. I never thought it would take SO LONG to work all this through. I just returned from 2 weeks in Europe with husband2.0 (improved version).

          • Fantastic!!!!

            It helps us all to know that there can be happy endings for all of us.

            You deserve your wonderful life with Husband 2.0 ( and the first one is probably stuck in pergatory watching it all…)

      • unicornnomore
        I have come to realize that you will never know what was running through his head. My now dead cheater, the plot just thickens more and more everyday. Each day I live I uncover other deceitful things. I blame myself sometimes because this whore was a howorker so naturally he must have thought (there I go again trying to get into his head)she was just a woman of substance and intelligence when it could have just occurred to him that he already had a beautiful wife with class style intelligence and substance. So I will never ever understand it. THen I have to stop and think and ‘console’ myself that he must have been a narcissist and there is no explanation for the behavior no matter how I try to unravel it. And in the end, the big whore thought he was HER man. That’s the humiliating part of it. That bitch thought she was his woman. How disgusting. I cannot even imagine why that no good average looking whore injected herself in my marriage. But I guess I cannot cry over what could have been.

    • The part I find galling is if they are not getting sex at home and this makes them miserable, why the fuck don’t they talk to their wives about it? If something medical happened and the wives don’t or can’t have sex, why not communicate with their wives? That is even assuming what they are saying is true.

      I find Dan Savage to be really funny, but I HATE his advice to people in sexless marriages to have sex with other people. He seems to say that is better for the 2 people in it than exiting it. But I can’t help but think that one person’s choices are taken away.

  • Karin is like a prostitute who is giving it out for free. What scum bag wouldn’t contact her? It just boggles the mind that there is such trash like her out there. And not only that, she thinks she has important life lessons to give to all those cold, frigid wives out there. Delusional. She’s just a pathetic joke.

    Excellent UBT as usual, Chump Lady.

  • I’m just going to add that I’ve always had a high sex drive and have had lots of conversations about how I could get more sex from my husband, eg creating private time, trying not to rush, spending the night away, taking supplements (for him – seriously) blah blah blah, I’m a problem solver and I like sex, loads of it, and I still got cheated on.

    • Bingo.

      The cheater got off on withholding from me and getting some for him. It was part of the mindfuck.

      • Yup. And this. I’m practically begging him and nothing. Coz he’s getting it elsewhere? She can’t be as good as me. He admitted she wasn’t. Still wasn’t enough. He went to the 2nd girl with the Ben Wa balls thinking this was the height of sexual antics. I laughed my head off….

      • bingo. It’s all about them. They are played out from all the extracurricular activity. I’m sure their whore is a nympho because after all, she is trying to F her way into his mind so that he never wants anything from the wife.

    • … and I have two dear girlfriends in their early 50s whose husbands are simply no longer interested in sex (I’m pretty sure these are good men ~ not lying asshole cheaters ~ whose libidos have simply dropped through the decades). My girlfriends are, understandably, bereft: have tried conversations, got their husbands to sample various medications, gone to couples’ counselling, etc. but to no avail. And, y’know what? These lovely, sensual, sex-starved women who could easily have picked up some hot guy for a fling Do Not Cheat, because they are individuals of fine character who are dedicated to finding a solution with their partner (and who knows – they might some day divorce, or together agree to an open marriage).

    • me also, exasshole withheld sex from me, it was part of the abuse. Excuse me, he had a problem – he said it was physical. Not so much, mental and partly due to all the porn – imagine his surprise when he had the same problem with his OW…asshole.

  • Ok so these men are just in sexless marriages and she is just doing them a favour. And of course they only need to talk to their wives and everything would be all right. Not so sure how spending marital assets on the tramp fits in there.

    BTW, I think that has to be my all time most favourite cartoon.

  • ‘Well, some married men MESSAGED me so now I have to go and fuck them. And although they made the effort to actively deceive their families with this here Tinder profile, each and every one of them is being completely forthright about the state of their marital union.

    Anyway they messaged me and to have any kind of standards would make me a Mean Lady. So let’s get to sprinkling my Magic Pussy Dust amongst the Deprived. I’m like Mother Earth, but you can stick your dick in me.’

  • This woman is a slut of the uppity version. So we need to check in with our husbands once a year? ok so what to do with the man that’s cheating in your first year of marriage? I was still picking out wedding photos to print and hang on the wall. I was banging him every night. Love notes and dirty messages in his fucking lunchbox. There were no children in my home taking my attention. My whole day revolved around him. There was nothing sexless or boring about me, Karin. Oh! but then if there was nothing wrong with ME! the WIFE, then that would just make you a regular ‘ol whorebitch with no morals. And that’s not possible for you to comprehend because you need to be the savior-whore… not just a run of the mill whore. You know who makes up reasons and blames others for their behavior? Narcissists. So Karen is a special narc whore who is banging all the lying narc husbands and pretending it’s someone else’s fault. I hope her vag rots off.

    • PREACH. As another commenter said, cheating for Cluster B personalities isn’t about sex or love – it’s about power and the thrilling (and sick) dopamine high that comes from “duping delight.”

      • Also, I think it’s about the entitled feeling as though ‘Everybody loves and adores them.’

    • Also, again (Again? AGAIN!!!!) it is up to US chumps to ONCE AGAIN shore up our marriages!!! How is it NEVER the fucking responsibility of the man-who’s-not-getting-his-needs-met (or whatever) to fucking SPEAK UP and voice his dissatisfaction in the marriage, then work WITH his wife to make things better??? — This particular aspect of the whole deal still makes me incandescent with rage, obvi.

      Nope, according to Karin, I was supposed to be following XH around & asking him every five minutes, “How about now? Are you happy now? Hmm? …. And now? Still happy? Still okay? Are we still okay? Do you want to be fucking other women? Should we be talking about that? … How about now?”

      Fuck. That. Shit. The next man will have to be a fully formed human being or there will be no “next man.”

      • Agree to everything you said!
        I’m not the dick whisperer. Never again!
        And honestly if he told me he needed a herd of whores to be happy in the marriage I would have divorced him. He knew that. He would never have told me the truth because his image is what allows him to get his victims. And he’s jealous and controlling and didn’t even let me out of his sight. If I knew what he was up to then his thinking is that I would get revenge and cheat. Because he gets revenge.
        There was never going to be an honest conversation. When I tried all I got was brutal devaluation.
        I’d ask what is wrong? And he would say “can you handle the truth?!” I’d say yes I can in order to make you happy please tell me. He then would tell me I’m a lazy sack of shit that is a non-wife child that is stupid and disgusting. That if I were a better whore then he wouldnt ignore me. If I pulled my thumb out of my ass and acted right maybe I’d have a friend since everyone thinks Im crazy and evil looking. If i tried harder I would have a husband that’s wrapped around my finger.
        Then he would say now look what you did! You made me tell you the truth because you can’t just keep your God damn mouth shut. Always trying to figure shit out. Maybe you didn’t comprehend the 19 fucking times I already told you.
        So yeah. Good talk.
        Karin is really a genius. Kick those tires!

        • Oh Whatring I’m so sorry to hear this. I can feel the rage rising in me on your behalf. No one should be subjected to that kind of shit.

          Fuck Him.

          • Thank you Fern ???????????? I wish I could wash my brain. I don’t want to remember anymore.
            And yes Fuck him.

    • whattheringofhellis this

      LOL …great comment. The old whore OW thinks she is just so great. Side note, OW whore has gotten her self some degrees, has gotten on the boards at some schools and churches to make herself look stellar and then she has no problem climbing and blowing a married man. None whatsoever. She is able to appear like the put together entrepreneur complicit with her secrets and colluding with someone else’s husband yet has this phony image. Me thinks this whore would be known as a Narc as well.

      • Let’s not be close minded here, just imagine…, **What if,**
        All marriages could use a great ice-breaker, you and your partner are getting ready to turn in for the night,
        Hey hon.., I know things have been a little dull in the bedroom, so I fucked your best friend’? or the whore next door to save our marriage so we could become more intimate. ” a beginning of a necessary conversation. I only did it to bring us closer..
        Marriages would be salvaged across the land..

        **What if an affair — or, ideally, simply the urge to have one — can be the beginning of a necessary conversation about sex and intimacy?**

  • I think she’s in denial, she’s actually being used or the om/her are using each other. The cheater/cheated on, have differing opinions, on the actual events, the om/ow doesn’t actually know what’s happening in the relationship. She actually thinks she’s helping people, how misguided is that. My ex had a sti, if he passed it on to me, its like saying he’s doing me a favour!

    • That’s the arrogance, right? If she wants to live her life the way she wants to, that’s her business. But for her to trot out her soapbox in an effort to be “helpful” to us chumps, well, that’s precisely the sort of attitude that makes me want to drag her into a dark alley where there are bunch of other angry chumps waiting for her.

  • So, the cheater is telling me, “The answer is honesty?”

    Alex, I guess the question is, “Name a concept Karin-with-an-I doesn’t understand.”

    Like having Jeffrey Dahmer tell me, “The answer is Vegetariansm.”


  • What if…affairs SAVED marriages?!? Then I, as the OW, have saved scores of them!!

    Our modern society has gone overboard to embrace “The Counterintuitive.” From Freakomnimics forward, everyone wants to claim that what you thought was true actually wasn’t, and that up is down and black is white.

    But it just ain’t so. Some truths are just that–truth. Yes, a fleeting few affairs may save marriages, but that doesn’t make affairs acceptable, and it doesn’t change the fact that so many affairs cause irreparable destruction.

    If I bet my life savings on video poker, I COULD win big. But it’s much more likely that I go broke, especially given that the machine is programmed in the house’s favor. That’s an affair.

  • Everyone don’t be so judgy with Kariin. That lady is a real American hero. Taking one for the team! Thank you to all the Karins of the world. Now i know what my poor husband really needed was “intimacy.” Dang it, i never knew…i thought that was included as a package deal when we had sex. All. The. Time.

    • Yeah Karin is helping us. Why is everyone yelling at Karin? Our lonely sad husbands are shopping for holes and she’s a charitable hole distributer.
      Free holes! Come one, come all! If we were better at life-ing she wouldn’t need to drag net everyone on Tinder. We did it to ourselves and if we were under the impression that it wasn’t our fault she’s here to tell us the truth of the matter. Husbands are on Tinder because they have unmet needs. Helpful Karin.

      • “Charitable Hole Distributor” !!! Ahhh that (a CHD) needs to be added to our lexicon here.

  • Didn’t Karin say she was getting over a painful divorce?!? Wonder if she’s getting revenge for her shitty marriage? She probably caught her husband fucking around so it’s her mission to ruin as many marriages as possible since hers went to shit and it wasn’t her fault. What a sicko!

    • That’s the impression I got – she was angry and hurt after divorce, and if she couldn’t have a happy marriage she could at least get some sadistic pleasure from having sex with married men, then gloating about it under the sanctimonious guise of giving helpful tips to the dumb wives.

    • Her ex probably caught her fucking around and divorced her! It fits her personality profile better.

      • I agree with this.

        How many chumps do you know who responded to infidelity by doing the same? Those are few and far between. I don’t think she’s a chump.

        • Schmoopie’s ex also cheated on her. She then felt justified in fucking my husband and encouraging him to tear our family apart knowing full well how much pain that was going to cause me. She didn’t care who got hurt as long as she got what she wanted. Winning over someone else’s husband made her feel better about being cheated on herself.

          I think this actually happens a lot.

          • Yup. I personally know two examples of this. Chump (understandably) feels lousy about herself after husband cheats so she “bolsters her self -esteem” (*gag* Eye roll*) by having another married man fuck her and tell her she is sexier/ more understanding/ cooler than his own wife.

          • In my case, exh2 Owife was a chump too. Her first husband/kids’ dad left her/them the day after kid#2 was born. He left them for a Hooter’s girl he had met… No offense meant towards any Hooter’s girls here on CL/CN.
            Her exh lives in Cali. with Hooter’s-wife and their two kids, so I’ve been told.
            So, after dating a few weeks, and after her mom goes skulking on my Facebook that we have a mutual friend, who blows up then husband’s lies up, she not only dates him still but married him within months.
            She was a mid-twenties single mom of two kids living with her parents. He was mid-thirties looking for new prey
            She thought she had found her Knight in shining armor, I’m sure. Nnnnnnot.

        • After D-day, my cheater tried to talk me into cheating, and referred me to Craigslist to try, because he thought we could then be “even” and I wouldn’t be upset about his cheating. I filed rather than take him up on that, um, generous offer.

          What I discovered in the year after the divorce, when people would divulge lots more to me about his behavior, is that I would have had to have screwed the entire Dallas Cowboys team for us to be “even.”

          • The spouse suggested the same ‘would you want to do the same so you feel like things are fair?’

            1)oh gosh thanks now I have your … permission?
            2) no. Giving away my body for a cheap thrill in order to inflict pain isn’t my idea of a good time
            3) you know about it so how is it the same?
            4)fuck off and die.

          • Ha! I got the same generosity from mine to go fuck around on him to “get even.” He genuinely could not understand why I declined his offer because, you know, ” all middle aged women want to fuck young boys”. I was disgusted but then I learned his married middle-aged main AP was fucking young boys on the side in addition to my cheater and her own chump husband. So if his AP did it then it’s what all women want, including wives.

            When I asked my cheater what his AP’s chump husband thought of his whore wife, my cheater told me he thought the husband was gay. Otherwise how could he continue being with her.

            Aah, I was trying to untangle this skein but higher mathematics would be easier.

        • I have an exception to that, sadly. My husband left me and our 2 babies in diapers for a stripper who had 2 children already from 2 different fathers. Ask me how it feels to share history and children with that man and that sordid story.

          Last year, Honey ‘reached out’ to ask me to agree to reduce child support. He hadn’t paid a dime or explained why not or even asked how his kids were surviving for a year and a half at that point. So I said no. HomeWrecker was CC’d on the email and chimed in with ‘I don’t want to be an enemy but I forever will be in your eyes , and I don’t blame you one bit / I have been there with my kids dad’.

          Sooo…let me get this straight. You were cheated on and left with a baby, and turned around and helped to bestow that gift on another woman?! And if I’m reading this right, did you just play the victim card, because you are the enemy in my eyes and ‘you don’t want that’?
          Let’s be clear: you don’t give a F*** what I think or feel. I was an obstacle to you, nothing more.

          In another message, she said ‘I knew all about you and your kids.I have plenty of videos from your house too.’

          You don’t say.

          Is one of them of my kitchen so you can get a feel for where I keep my large pots? Because nothing says ‘you’ll soon be enjoying some of my delicious rabbit stew’ like the words you just wrote here.

          It’s even more enjoyable and creepy when I imagine you whispering it…

        • The OW i know about was supposedly cheated on and that’s why she divorced. Idk what is true though.

    • I read her neediness not as angry but more almost daddy issues. She wants to be seen as a charitable cherub, just doling love out on these incredibly burdened hapless men who bear the WEIGHT OF THE WORLD – and sexless to boot? Gawsh. We are all so lucky her legs were open because without this sweet humane innocent flower available to those titans of industry, the world as we know it would have probably stopped turning. Oh lands! She actually probably is solely responsible for saving the BEES! Her nectar is so sweet. Who knew.

      Regardless of how her marriage ended, she seems to need someone to want to treasure her or validate her. She needs to be the darling princess the sparkle in the eye, and it’s all very condescending and infantilizing. Maybe her husband wanted to be partners instead of doting on her like some mindless collection of holes. It makes me wonder if she met them all with ringlet curls, babydoll dresses and large swirly lollipops in hand.

      Frankly it’s a wonder she can type with such an innocence and juvenile likeness, I’m sure her keyboard is covered in jam and without all these people to fawn over her, she’s probably due for a bath. Dirty, cheap, and a shame to the female gender.

  • So much for thinking that the NYT is a reputable magazine. Turning trash into news is pathetic, and this woman is the epitome of bottom-feeder-gone-psychotic, so let’s give her a platform!!!! What in the absolute fuck.
    Thankfylly CL you nailed it once again!!!! Thank you for your insight & candor in addressing this monumental stupidity.

  • How self important that Karen’s trysts and lessons are publication worthy; because you know, those ground breaking revelations (honesty/ communication) aren’t anything faithful people don’t already know. Maybe I missed the part where the revelation of lessons, worthy enough to make her self important, also made her someone who follows her own advise? Is she a better person now? She hold the secret to good relationships, she must be right? Did I miss that part? Surely I must have!

    I must have missed it, because i thought I read about someone who is void of the desire for commitment, divvying out advise about how to be committed. Surely no one would be self important enough to think their hypocrisy is important information for us every day monogamous idiots!

    • Oops… wasn’t finished

      I’ve ridden in a few dozen different cars, shall I tell you how to repair them? I’m an expert now you know.

      I’ve vacationed in several different kinds of properties. That makes me qualified to manage them right? Need a property manager?

      God, and to think that my worry about divorce and being a stay at home mom for 18 years had me all worried about getting a job. I’ll just tell prospective employers that Karen says my years nursing, chauffeuring, teaching homework, house cleaning, cooking, etc. makes me qualified to be a nurse, driver, teacher, chef.

      I guess I could always run out and sleep with married men for more qualified work experience, but alas, that job market seems to be over saturated!


      • Exactly!-“I’ve never met any of you, but despite that I can tell from here that you’re all frigid”. The arrogance of it is amazing.
        My ex would never come to bed at the same time as me, ever. I would hover by his elbow while he played games on his computer, trying to convince him just to come to bed for a bit, you can play again later….begging him to show some physical affection while I was awake and up for it. But no, it was too important to save the world from alien attack. I got a hug and promise of ” later” which never came.

      • there’s a whore that fucked my husband that is now “up for grabs” since my husband died. She will need to be screwed real soon because she must be dying for a lay now. She’s 52, she’s still a whore. She has two kids. No man in sight. Nobody seems to want her. Apparently she had the company of my husband all these years, did not bother to look for a single guy. Maybe her and Karin can join forces for their slut cluster fuck fest with married men

    • Interesting point… yeah, similar to my cheater in one of our post DDay discussions, started telling me something like: “Yeah, WisedUp in your NEXT relationship,” and I shut him down instantly. Stop right there, I said. I won’d be taking any relationship advice from YOU!”

      So Karin, an OW slut, whose own marriage ended, should simply STFU.

  • My POS coached soccer football softball and scouts and still managed to find time to bump uglies (and I mean uglies) with anything he could get drunk enough to fall down under him… just pure garbage from a rag paper I wouldn’t wipe my backside with..

  • Karin Jones wants a book deal ala Esther ???? Perel.
    It’s all about the money. If they disabled the comments they already know that it will get a lot of play=more money in sales. It’s the equivalent of the way most tv stations put out crap and call it “news” then have the audacity to tell the public that WE want to hear it. This stuff (even in the Sunday issue) is why I do not read or watch mainstream “news”. It makes me feel like I’m being “herded” a little too much for my taste.

  • So much self-contradiction – particularly the conclusion.

    “They seemed to have convinced themselves. But deception and lying are ultimately corrosive, not kind.”

    Karin’s next research project should be into something known as “projection”

  • Where does the NYT find such sucky writers? This is the worst. Cheaters are epic liars though she seems to want to help tell their sad story. My ex told women all kinds of things to make them feel bad for them. Sexless marriage (lie), I was controlling (lie), even I was a bad mom. ????

    • Controlling: The 21st century equivalent of calling a woman a bitch or a cunt.

      AKA any wife/SO asking a male cheater to do ANYTHING. Get a job? Controlling. Pick up the kids? Controlling. Ask to see his phone because you accidentally caught him sexting a coworker before? Controlling. Not go out every night to whore around? “You’re so controlling.”

      • This. I cannot count the number of times I was angrily accused of being controlling when I simply asked him to change a nappy, get the baby’s coat for me, put a liner in the bin… And if I begged him not to go out and get drunk and turn off his phone and stay God knows where overnight when my baby was ill or not sleeping I was apparently the devil incarnate.

        • Why are you still bitter? Why do you act like the victim? I love when I’m asked these things, always by folks who walk all over people.

          Interestingly, playing the victim “waah my wife doesn’t understand me. No sex. Not appreciated. Waaah” Sounds victim-y to me.

          Calling one a bitter victim just hands the hot potato of responsibility from the cheater to the betrayed. From the bully to the bullied.

  • This sociopath forgets her true motivation. Her marriage ended so now she doesn’t see the need to honor anyone else’s. Right, she didn’t get to live happily ever after so should anyone else. Maybe her husband fucked around and that was wrong but multiple wrongs don’t make it right. It’s not like she’s banging 25-35 year olds. She smashing with other 50 somethings, tarnishing other long term relationships. Hey Karin, think you’re the first? Think you’re special? No your the 59 year old divorcee who’s willing to accept all inputs but still keep her mouth shut. Nice work, very impressive. Do you tell your kids?

    • Some people just want to watch the world burn.
      I will say this, I detest most of these modern love vomit fests- but this one is poorly written on top of everything else. The New York Times used to at least demand you could write worth a damn.

    • betrayed and confused
      like I mentioned earlier theres a big HO that is 52 that needs to be laid right now. Send all these married men over to her. She will need to get a lay now because my husband died and she did not bother to find a single man, She saw my husband and wanted to F him but now he’s dead and her wonky pussy must need something. she was a leftover that had two kids and no man. But wow, what a good catch she is. Baby talk baby talk, sheer blouses and cow udders….

  • Trite garbage. “All the news that fits- we print” That is the New York Times today. Giving the immoral a voice and trying to “normalize” affairs and, as usual blaming the wife and a sexless marriage.

  • Sorry, this has just set me off. When x wife tried to give me some crap about how everyone cheats, except me, I asked if she wanted her daughter to cheat or how she thought is her son’s wife cheats on him (my kids are still very young) that shut her right the fuck up. When she said I had to own my responsibility I would ask So, what did your mom do to force your dad to fuck other woman. Again that shits the blame shifting shit right down. My X and this dumb slut are kidding themselves. I fucked a lot of woman in college. And it taught
    Me one thing, if you are using them they are using you and in the end you feel devalued. That’s why I stopped and settled down. Like Chris Rick said new pussy doesn’t care about you. I wonder how many cocks X will have to ride before she figures that out. Cue the old tootsie roll pop commerial. Mr. Owl I think you’re going be here for a while

    • That’s a great way to turn it on her. The children. Then she can’t say she wants that for them. I’m sorry.

  • I think the first line of Karin’s gift to humanity says it all. Karin, you much like all cheaters, have more than justified your actions. You have done all of us on planet earth a great service. Your bravery is truly deserving of an article in the New York Times

  • The comment section was disabled? I guess they were afraid that poor dear Karin might get her feelings hurt when hearing from “the other side”.

    It really angers me that it is a common assumption that affairs happen because the marriage is sexless. What I have discovered from CN is that this simply isn’t true. Most of us were or at least tried to be intimate with our husbands (and wives, but I am guessing in those cases there wasn’t much intimacy because the cheating wives were in fact frigid). I admit to thinking that this was true myself. I naively thought for years that my ex wouldn’t cheat because I made a point of continuing physical intimacy in our marriage. That was one of the reasons why I was so dumbfounded when I found out about Schmoopie. “but I didn’t withhold sex, how could this have happened?” I have no doubt that ex told his schmoopies that our marriage lacked physical intimacy. Apparently having sex isn’t enough. It has to be the right kind of sex (oral, anal, painful, threesomes?) at the right time (usually at 3am after waking up from a deep sleep in my case). I did notice that he had been underperforming in recent years, but I loved him and didn’t go out seeking alternatives to compensate. Now I know he was underperforming because he was getting his rocks off elsewhere. In any case, if there is lack of intimacy in a marriage with a cheater, that is virtually always the cheaters fault, not the faithful spouse who is probably confused and hurt and trying to figure out why the intimacy is either no longer happening or doesn’t seem to have the meaning it once did.

    And then there is the whole communication thing. Most faithful spouses are trying to communicate with the wayward ones but the cheaters only respond with abuse and criticism. Ms. Karin is a clueless, classless, emotionally immature slut who needs to go crawl back under her rock instead of spreading false narratives and throwing salt on the wounds of all of us who weren’t sexless and did try to communicate only to be cheated on anyway by spouses fucking losers like her. If there were not so many pathetic excuses for women out there willing to fuck other people’s husbands, then maybe they would pay a little more attention to their wives (and kids) and maybe their marriages would still stand a chance. People like Ms. Karin ensure that those marriages will either be destroyed or remain dysfunctional.

    • I have come to a place where I view any expression of a desire to want to do a specific thing sexually accompanied by a view that it’s important whether the sex partner wants to do that thing or not as a red flag. It’s objectifying and harmful.

      Why would a person want to hurt me? Why would I volunteer to be hurt?

      I have promised myself that I will never allow anyone to touch me in a way I don’t want to be touched or enjoy being touch ever again. I don’t need any relationship in my life where a person would enjoy harming me.

      • God, I wish I’d had what you wrote tattooed on my forearm when my stbx decided at age 58 and 32 years of marriage that he “wanted to be a woman and told me that in order to “be” a woman he wanted to “act like a woman in bed” and therefore had to be penetrated–because doncha know, ‘a being who is penetrated’ is the definition of woman!–and stop using his penis on me. I spent nine whole months accommodating his ever more bizarre desires, and any time I expressed any kind of regret or doubt I was told I was out of line asking him “to be more male.”

        • Totally. Some people’s assumption of centrality is amazing.

          I feel I can confidently say that if I ever face an identity change of that magnitude, I will not expect my partner to change for me, I will never ask him to do anything he doesn’t want to do with his life or body, and I will honor his choice if he needs to change his participation in the relationship because his needs aren’t being met.

          How do I know this? Because it’s the same behavior I give him now with this identity.

          Maturity, respect, caring… All things cheaters lack.

    • WORD. I also kept intimacy at the top of my marriage priority list, but it wasn’t enough. I also needed to go to the gym for 2 hrs a day to “keep it tight,” and keep my house SPOTLESS, and make more money to contribute to the household finances, and keep the kids involved in their select sports teams, and suck dick, and … and… and … NONE of it was enough. He still cheated. So fuck this woman. And fuck cheaters. They only care about their mutha’ fuckin’ selves.

  • And I’m looking forward to the next brave article entitled “Why i had to ditch my wife and kids to be me and what it can teach the world about parasites”

  • A missing condom several months after our wedding is the only evidence I have that Hannibal Lecher (HL) might have started cheating early (and I know I am not alone among CN in that respect). I guess here is how an honest conversation might have gone:

    HL: Tempest, our wedding was really fun, and I know we are in honeymoon phase right now, but I really want to fuck strange. Academic conferences provide a wealth of opportunities; you wouldn’t want to deprive me, would you?

    Tempest: Hannibal, we just got married and you know I expect fidelity!

    HL: Well, I crossed my fingers during that part of the marriage vows, so it doesn’t count.

    Tempest: How do you have the energy? We already have an active sex life! And I wear lingerie!

    HL: Yes, but you’re pregnant now and the baby bump turns me off. At conferences, there are lithe, young graduate students eager to sleep with an esteemed professor.

    Tempest: No!!! This is not what I signed up for.

    HL: If it’s good enough for Henry VIII, it’s good enough for me. I should not be sexually harnessed! Oh, wait, that kind of sounds appealing… we have leather straps?

    Tempest: You could give me a disease that hurts our unborn child, or that prevents me from having more children (author footnote: which he did, years later–HPV, which my doctor convinced me could have simply been dormant for years).

    HL: You’re not the boss of me. It’s very bourgeois of you to think we can go decades of marriage without sexual novelty.

    T: But it’s only been months!

    HL: See, this is why I don’t talk to you about my sexual need to boink strangers and prey on graduate students. You’re so unreasonable.

    • Yep. Just how DOES Karin think these conversations would go? I would love to read her script.

      Mine would be a lot simpler:

      XH: NWB, we need to talk seriously about our marriage. I’m unhappy, I don’t know why, but I found this other chicky-poo who really yanks my crank, if you know what I mean. Furthermore, she’s in a servile position, not all professional like you … doctor type person… so I get to be the big He-Man and she thinks I’m dreamy.

      Me: Wait a minute. You know this is all new, right? and that after sixteen years, she’s going to be old hat to you, as well. Your lack of responsibility for anything ever is going to wear on her, as well, over time.

      XH: … Hmm? … I’m sorry, were you saying something? I was off floating in the empty space of where my brain should be, so flooded as it currently is in a wash of hormones….
      Oh, by the way, …wait, I have it written down here somewhere… Oh, yep, here it is: “I-Love-You-But-I’m-Not-In-Love-With-You.” So you shouldn’t feel bad. Because, see, I said “I Love you” still, there in the middle, see? [points to it on the paper]

      Me: So there’s nothing you’re willing to do to try to save our marriage, you’ve already decided what you want and you’re just going to choose that. What I want, or the promises you made to me, our plans for a future life together, … none of that comes into play. It’s all just you you you you you?

      XH: Pretty much.

      See, Karin? That pretty much WAS the conversation XH had with me, so step down off your soapbox and learn a bit from those of us who actually lived it.

      • Haha thanks for that. Endured the similar story, roles reversed (as in she, XW). She craved something I couldn’t give her she said, the thrill of conquest. That a random stranger (on the fucking internet, wtf) would like to meet up with her for sex… Or someone hitting on her in the bar. She didn’t want to have an emotional relationship with them, just fucking some strange…

        Yeah… Shallow, superficial. Now that I’m out, I just have nothing left for her. She’s not even attractive looking to me anymore, because the love I had for her is gone. She repulses me, just like this Karin… Barf.

    • Only that we had a similar conversation in the midst of reconciliation when cheater told me I can’t really expect that he would be faithful after 12 years of continued affairs but I can trust that he would always have my back and be committed to me and son for at least good half of the year. He needs his own time also and he would understand if I also would want my share of personal time. Provided that I don’t bring fucks home.

    • I totally relate to this.
      Three years now and my personal health, mental, all that has improved greatly.
      Sex is great, but no longer a “missing piece” to me. I miss intimacy, but I have a dog that is a constant comfort to me.

  • Karin, you ignorant slut!
    These men were on Tinder!! They were not poor little celibate angels whose wives were holding out. They were actively looking for affair partners (fuck-buddies) and you provided the perfect orifice to put their “unused” penises. They were on freaking Tinder!!!!! Just think about all of the steps it took to create a profile and look online for the sluts, and they found you. OMG

    • LOL, I just thought of old, old SNL skits, “Jane you ignorant slut”

      • Yes I loved Jane Curtain in SNL in the eighties. I was in Univ. and thought “that’ll never be me”. Well it is now. What I have learned from other women sleeping with my husband is that it can happen to ANYBODY! If you are still with your cheater- whatever variety- just go. You are in good company, you’ll be fine. Just go.

  • If there is a better writer out there than CL- I’ll eat some hay and my hat.

    She kills it every time. Do you know how hard that is?

    I am sending her article as a rebuttal to the Times. Let’s see if they have the stones to contact her, PAY her and run it.

    • When I first read it it irritated my on many levels but that God for CL. Thanks CL again for taking the time for another excellent translation so I can spend my time on the important task of rebuilding my life.

  • Yup Karin you got used, how does it feel?
    You got taken by the oldest trick in the liars handbook
    My ex blew two marriages apart with cheating, but it’s still everyone else’s fault
    These men find you because you are the lowest of low, and they know they can pull on over on you
    You are not “special”

  • The cheating spouse is a conartist- scamming everyone usually- the spouse, the AP, everyone. The have no boundaries- they lie like you can’t imagine possible.

    and newsflash to APs- the person is actually having sex with the spouse also- that’s part of their weirdo ego boosting power trip.

    • Zell,
      Thank you for reminding me why I can’t go back–I will never know whether my exes are telling the truth.

  • And, don’t you just love how irresistible she thinks she is. “I pick married men because having mortgages and wives and all that crap will keep them from getting too attached. Of course, everyone knows I am so fabulous that they will fall hopelessly in love with me anyway.”

    My guess is that being an older woman in this society, she has found that she is having trouble attracting the guys she thinks she should have. For her, free pussy is the leveler. The devaluation of the older woman, well she can just get around that by putting out. Easy peasy. Just ignore the fallout like STIs, broken hearted spouses and children, and crapping all over some other woman she has never even met. Only Karen matters in this scenario.

    Narcissistic much?

  • Hey my cheater claimed there wasn’t enough sex but it was just gaslighting as we were VERY active sexually, especially after the first DDay when I was told I wasn’t allowed to turn down sex EVER and I didn’t because—pick me dance much? He still left 4 years later for a new schmoopie..

      • They really are fuckers. It’s all about them. You need to put out for them whenever they want regardless of the circumstances or you are neglecting your spousal duties.

        Ok I will admit it. I did blow him off one time at 3:00am when I had to present at a very important meeting the next day and really needed my sleep. This was after not blowing him off the last few times he woke me up at 3:00am only for him to not be able to climax himself so it took all night for nothing and I was dead tired the next day. I am just frigid that way. I think that was just before he took up with Schmoopie 2.0 who he left me for a few months later. Clearly justified. She has no life (no job let alone career) so she has nothing better to do than service him whenever for however long it takes while her children are left alone and neglected (or left with the man she claims is their abusive and alcoholic dad).

        • As a friend who was cheated on said “Guess who doesn’t have to deal with being poked awake in the middle of the night with a dick in my back ? ME !” Cheater free and she feels much better

    • Word. To date my ex will assert that we were in a sexless marriage, yet we had regular sex. RReally it was about his need to be on a pedestal like some kind of greek god. Once that stopped, he used anything as an excuse to find a new pedestal holder.

  • CL, love the bit about the mortgage rate. Thank you so much, I needed a laugh this morning. Love the way you put BS into perspective. Thank you. Please keep this up.

  • “But sex is basic. Physical intimacy with other human beings is essential to our health and well-being.”

    OK, I like sex. A lot. BUT: it is NOT ‘essential to our health and well-being,’ and it bugs the heck out of me that people start from this assumption.

    FOOD, WATER, SHELTER are essential (you DIE if you don’t get them). Physical intimacy is very, very important for infants and children (health and mental/emotional problems for sure if it is lacking) For adults, human relationship is very, very important (but hermits don’t DIE). Sex is a natural drive and is important (but there are PLENTY of chaste people in the world – chaste by choice and chaste NOT by choice. They don’t DIE from lack of sex (despite what you might hear from incels). And I see an awful lot of healthy old priests and nuns. And yes, a few of them ‘cheat’ on THEIR vows, but most don’t.

    Cheater: “She was slowly MURDERING ME by denying me sex!” “It was no different than a trip to the doctor – I was saving my HEALTH in that hotel room!”


    • Thank you. I’ve always had a high sex drive, but I’ve been sexless for 3 years and my physical health and emotional well-being has probably been the best it has been since I can remember. In fact, I have made self-care a priority, since I haven’t had a partner to try to please. I have so many well meaning friends tell me, with pity in their countenance, how much I need to get laid, or that I just haven’t found the right person.
      I haven’t been looking. I’m happy where I’m at. I’m taking better care of myself and my other relationships better than ever.

    • This is a great point. I think you’ll largely find that the more whacked a person is, the more likely they are to have lost a healthy perspective and placed an outsized importance on sex. I think they just lack a capacity for experiencing most of the other meaning in life, so sex takes on a disproportionate importance in the vacuum left.

      • This. I do believe they lack the ability to appreciate the many small beautiful moments life offers; they don’t experience life the way we do. Case in point, X, when courting his AP, re-enacted the very same ritual he did when he was pursuing me those many years ago, right down to the many miles he traveled to be with his new love. The disordered remind me of chameleons, just place them on a rock and they will reflect it.

  • Karin is so stupid that I almost feel sorry for her. Almost. No, never mind, I don’t.

    But seriously, how dumb do you have to be to fall for the old my-wife-is-frigid line? That is literally the oldest line in the books. I want to sell this idiot some beachfront property in Arizona.

    My own Cheater actually played that lie both ways. To me (who knew how much sex we had) he claimed that my sexual appetite was so intense and my willingness to try new things so titillating that it compelled him into new waters and forced him to experiment with strangers. That’s why it was a totally jaw-dropping moment when I found out that he told our pastor that my disability prevented us from having sex, so he was seeking it elsewhere because he wasn’t getting it at home.

    Cheating liars cheat and lie. But oh, they’d never lie to Karin. She’s SPECIAL.

  • Karin: fuck off.

    I had mind blowing sex of all kinds with X many times a week up until GTFO day. During fake reconciliation, X posted pics on his FB holding my hand while laying on the beach in Maui. He wrote “my best friend and sexy wife … whom I deeply love”. When he got caught the very next week texting one of the OW again I contacted her, told her to back off, and sent her a screen shot of his posts. She persisted with X. I finally had enough of that BS and kicked his ass out, when NC, filed for divorce.

    These narcissistic whores know exactly what they are doing in fucking married men.

    Good riddance.

  • Definitely an unpaid hooker. With peanut butter legs. Why do these morons think their emotional diatribes attempting to justify their behavior would be “insightful?” I read this shit and it’s nauseatingly boring. Talk about self-centered!&

  • I was in a sexless relationship. After the birth of our daughter my X refused ANY physical contact with me for SEVEN YEARS.
    Soon after the birth of our daughter I tried to initiate relations with him and I got “Oh, now you like me?!”. I never understood it. He never would talk about it. I spent years flirting with him and getting no response and guess what! I NEVER CHEATED.
    So this whole “my spouse is frigid” line is absolute BS. If you are a person with any sort of character you do not cheat. Period.

    • 5 years I spent without sex while he was fucking around because he couldn’t do sex. I almost divorced him over that but convinced myself I could deal with a sexless relationship because ‘love’. I was an idiot.

      • I also convinced myself I could live with it. Friends told me he HAD to be cheating. But I always thought he was too dumb to pull it off. Now when I think back, he manscaped. I remember asking him once why he did that if he wouldn’t have sex with me. I don’t even remember what he told me, but I can’t believe I bought his BS.

        • Cancer Chump, I actually joked that we had sex once per quarter after the birth of our son. He never initiated and turned me down at many occasions because he was tired. From work. I did all the house chores and all child related stuff, sleepless nights and I still had a high drive. But poor sausage was tired. Always! When I got more persistent he would forcefully push me out of the bed.

          When busted and during fake reconciliation his sex drive and interest in me got miraculously revived to the highest levels. Our sex was so good I even secretly was thankful for his affair and “awakening” and thought we were good for good now. Hahaha!

          Now I know he refused sex because he was getting blow jobs and fucks at work staying for extended hours and coming home dead tired and fully depleted. And his multiple business trips were mostly around meeting his main AP who also traveled a lot.

          Lots of coordination, you know. Of course he was tired with that.

          • LongtimeChump
            OMG Exactly ! He was so drained from the lunch fucks, the work trip fucks, and the in between brushing her teeth with his dick…(sorry I have to be gross when I refer to that whore) anyway, depleted/drained, the whore had to work it over so there would be nothing left and then poor sausage had to go to bed at 8pm all by himself because he was just so “pooped’ ….funny my day’s work was way more grueling and I had energy. But DUH I never caught on….red flag….duh…what a stupid chump I was …duh

  • “Wives and children can be replaced, but a 3.25% fixed rate?” LOL, this line wins the internet today!

  • Karin is a bad Holiday Inn Express commercial: “No, I’m not a relationship expert or even a decent human being, but it’s okay, I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night so listen to me.” I would bet money that Karin’s ex dumped her for cheating. This is her way of trying to justify her sense of importance now that her ex proved she’s actually NOT the center of the universe – not his or anyone else’s.

    • “I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night so listen to me.”

      I doubt Karin (with an “I” – because it’s all about her) stays at Holiday Inn Express. I don’t think they rent rooms by the hour – or 15 minute blocks. I mean, let’s be real, 15 minutes is ALL the time cheaters will spend with Karin and her enlightened snatch. As far as OW go, Karen is the clearance rack. Poor thing probably doesn’t even get fed by the cheater or thrown a cocktail.

  • Its funny how disordered people rarely,if never, just come out and say they did something for the hell of it. That is too close to the truth for their liking. Instead they send “helpful” letters to the new york times. They work like crazy to justify the crappy things they do. And this sort of justification is like sweet nectar to other disordered liars who are always searching for a way to justify their parasitic existence.

  • I think the article’s title needs a little expansion. It should also read “Or how I learned to justify bad behavior”.

    Karin with an “i” all I can say is “Bless your heart”. It must be nice to be such a special and enlightened snowflake making yourself available to service all the sad sausages out there.

  • In my own case, my husband refused to have sex with me and refused to talk about it. I assumed he needed Viagra or something but I didn’t want to embarrass him by pushing too hard. So we just cuddled for years. Then, when he dumped me, he assured me there wasn’t someone else but kept referring to our lack of sex (how does that logically follow? if he weren’t cheating, why would he even bring up sex?), as if I were the one rejecting him. Whatever. She can have him.

    • Same sad “I can’t have sex but don’t ever want to talk about it” bs from my cheater troll for 10 years! And he is so f-ing stupid to attempt to divorce me on grounds of abandonment?? He abandoned our marriage. Our children. Our relationship. WTFH!!!! Yes I’m the chump that put up with the lies, deflection, projection, gaslighting, word salad, crazy making for 25 years all for the sake of the children while cheater troll has another schmoopie (or many) while at work living a completely different life on his expense account while kids and I are stuck with rice and hotdogs, two mortgages and taking turns who gets to shower and wash clothes. Cheaters lie cheat steal Always. And Karin, you are just about the stupidest woman I have ever heard, telling people you have sex for free with no commitment, thanks for putting women’s rights back another 200 years or more….smh

      • kibble less
        so true…cheater troll and schmoopie went out on the work money having the time of their lives, the 5 star hotels, the lavish dinners, the romance, the jet flights all over, cuz the whore had ‘her own business’ so unlike people that actually have a real job and not front like a fake entrepreneur in order to be available to fuck my husband, I actually have a job and cannot just kick my heels up and fly all over the country to fuck a married man. Meanwhile back in my world, I was accepting the shitty dinner dates with my husband while the whore was being thrown the best money can buy on company tab and extended ‘work trips’ to get more fucks in with his whore. And then I too, had to deal with the riddles, the fun word games, the lying the I will get there when I arrive, the you don’t need the hotel number, you have my cell number, the changing the date of the gala because he got the date wrong, so don’t bother coming to the gala…the lies lies gaslighting,, etc….oh the mindfuckery I put up with. And I bet a million dollars that the whore DID not suffer one word of mindfuckery at all ! She had a stress free existence while my brain got fucked with

        • My STBX of 13 years and I would have “weekly check-in’s” to make sure our needs were being met and discuss the things that we did well and could do better. He’d say all the right things, “you’re a good mother,“ “I appreciate you keeping everything together while I work all this overtime for us,” “I wish we had more time for each other…” Likewise, I would say “I want more date nights,” I want more intimacy,” “you’re a good father,” “I appreciate you helping with the chores around the house on your days off, etc.” His response to the intimacy issue was, “I know it just seems like we’re both so busy we barely have time for each other.” What he was really saying, “I know, between my porn addiction and the a mutual acquaintance that I’m fucking, I’m physically exhausted from all the jacking off & sex I’m getting elsewhere that I don’t have anything left in the tank for intimacy with you or free time for our daughter!”

          • missmovinon
            every day i think of the dupery and that the dupery gets deep the longer and more I dig, I find myself still ‘suffering’ still having so much trouble moving on from this. I am blamed by people for letting him ‘get away’ with it, in other words, i am blamed for being blinded that nothing was going on, or allowing myself to be in limbo too long while he was living it up never battting an eyelash and ‘going on’ with his life, while still married to me. I think back and little/big things come up like him constantly texting at dinner while we were out, jumping up to ‘ use the bathroom’ at a restaurant or the last days is was jumping up and running outside to take a phone call “i have to get this” leaving me sitting in the restaurant etc etc. Looking back now I was such a fool. He was in deep since day one. When I reflect I realize he started with this hoser at work from the minute he hired her, yes, he hired her, and I know she set her sights on him immediately. He never said No I am sure and that is why it got to the point of where it is today. Me alone, not a day goes by I don’t think of what the two of them got away with and the dupery and then he died and I got to relive the actual reality in real time because then everything just came to fruition, there was no hiding the scrambling the family did and their blatant abundantly clear obvious destroying of me/disrespecting me, image management and control, and trying to honor his whore that they did not admit but clearly they had to have known about the whore. It’s stuff I can never get over. I’m blown away by EVERYTHING that went into this. For this to be pulled off and the dupery and complictness and enabling of a sibling of his, just is mind BLOWN for me. They are all good. The whore is good, they are good. I am the ONLY one that is destroyed. And yes, he was exhausted because his whore really wore him out. She had to be the biggest prostitution skilled whore that ever lived for him to risk his image, his integrity at work, everything. But I think how he accomplished that was he probably blasted my good reputation, lied about me, destroyed and backstabbed me to the point that he looked great and I was unwittingly being destroyed behind my back. NICE. M’effer is right.
            I want to live my best life. If I could only get over this . It’s hard. he used to say to me “i don’t know what went wrong” The only thing asshole that went wrong, was you decided to devalue and ‘discard’ me after the honeymoon and set out to destroy your own wife cuz you are a narcissist. If only I knew the answers then of what I know now that I did not know then. But we are not made to privy to their affairs so how would we have the quick answers for them when we don’t even know we are being deceived…Oh, the mindfuckery of it all….and how they come out shining like a diamond. That’s the tragedy. Bigger tragedies are families being destroyed also. I feel bad for every woman on here that had to endure that !

  • “Not a smidgen of sex”

    All these men , poor fellows! But, you, Karin, you, saved them.

    But, excuse me, I think you best be getting to your GYN, it looks like your vagina is so over used it is coming out your other end.

    • It’s rot. From the disease or lack of soul? We will never know. That’s a philosophical conundrum if there ever was one.

  • What the ever fucking piece of fucking shit article to read over coffee Sunday morning. Trigger ……

  • What these assholes try to sell as a lack of intimacy is indeed just that. But it has zero to do with us or with sex. It has to do with their inability to bond. They can package it anyway they like and project it onto others but is all just a diversion of the painful truth.

  • I heard the line….. well my friend told me how much improved her marriage was due to her having side dick. So I guess I can’t hold the infidelity against her. She was just trying to make our marriage better!

  • Honey, if you had any sort of a soul or a brain, what sleeping with married men should have taught you is…

    1) These men are cheaters. What their wives do or don’t do is irrelevant to their cheating.

    2) These men are cowards. Dig a little deeper, and you’d be sure to find that their wives were trying to have these conversations about sex and their marriage.

    3) The wives of these men are in happy marriages too. Statistics tell me, the majority of them aren’t cheating. So it isn’t the fault of the marriage being broken that makes those men cheat.

    4) The wives of these men would probably want to fuck them more or at all, if the men weren’t immature, sniveling, cowards, who, instead of cheating, spent more time with their families, held up their end of the responsibilities of being in a marriage and having children, and didn’t expect to have all of their needs catered to them. These women didn’t go off sex. They went off sex with that specific man because he is a loser, as proven by his cheating.

    5) Most of the things those men told you about their wives are lies.

    6) You are an unpaid sex worker. Nothing more.

    • Hmmm. I wonder if this same logic could be used for stealing? “So and so has some nice china that she doesn’t appear to use, so I will help myself to a salad plate. She won’t miss it, and it will lighten the load on that china cabinet! Plus, I like china. I have a large collection of plates! She doesn’t appreciate china, her husband told me.”

      • ivyleaguechump
        my china was stolen and disappeared from the house, I would bet my last dollar that the big wide gapped whore has my china ! Our wedding china. I bet the more gifts he could give that whore the better. She must have had a million dollar gap. I bet he fell in…meanwhile, back in my world I am out some pretty nice china. Thanks to blow job queen. (kind of like that song dancing queen, only the words have been changed to blow job queen)

  • OK. I read it. Her tatted Bloke-whom She ONLY slept with 4 times but actively kept an EA going for 2 years….????… (Incubus ???? Pardon Me While I Burst into Flames)

    I’m 58. My WWhore is 49/ 50 next month. She fucked a 40 year old downgrade (Dday 1), then moved in with her 53 year old AP- less than 1 month after I confronted her on AP1. It took me another week or two to discover AP2.

    She was fundamentally/emotionally changed within 10 days of AP1 banging her. WTF!? The power of Chemistry? I knew it was over between us after I experienced sloppy seconds. He must have fucked her ‘the right way’. I had nothing left to offer.

    2 years before all this, Stbxw obtains Viagra in a bet with me that she could order it off the web WITHOUT a prescription. It worked a little. I’ve tried all the supplements Horny goat weed, tribulis, maca root, yohimbe, etc etc etcetera! All in hope for the ‘increased libido’. Men like me sexually slow down. Specifically when their prostates become known to them. My testosterone is 250 on basically a 100-800 ng/dL scale. I bought her ( more ‘us’) toys galore to fill in the space. Not enough. I don’t think menopause even will deter a cheating woman from straying.

    Oh! And Ladies! There are NO FOUR HOUR ERECTIONS taking viagra (tadalafil). That is the biggest marketing scam ever invented. Ask me how I know.

    I used to say (after Ronnie Van Zant) “I never met a woman I couldn’t satisfy” (sexually). That was before I married my serial cheater. Part of my MAJOR attraction to her was she ABSOLUTELY LOVED SEX with me. I’m convinced WW wore me out. She was 305 pounds@5’ last June (pre-gastric bypass surgery) and sex was getting physically difficult due to our sizes. I was 275 at 6’3”. FAT. I loved every ounce of her irregardless. I thought we could go on forever being grandparents together. That was all Before CL started enlightening me through her simple but effective stereotype of your basic Cyberdyne Model 101 Cheater.

    So this article….Meh! Just another run of the mill home wrecker on a Power trip seeking control of a defective mind clouded with entitled, unrealistic, unreasonable expectations publicly rationalized as wanting sex (I must have to be Healthy). The institution of marriage and Fidelity are being destroyed systematically. Societal evolution? Entropy? Human nature? We loyals are a dying breed.

    • No, we aren’t. It just feels that way, especially after a long term marriage relationship.

      I’m sorry she did that to you. You did what you could but you’ve got nothing to work with.

      It’s not your fault.

    • I feel that way, sometimes–as if we in the midst of a fundamental shift away from marriage, and certainly away from sexual fidelity. It might actually be the case. Perhaps “family” will become a single parent (the one who cares to parent) and his or her children.

      Certainly the ready availability of digital sexual images and communication–all prettily readily hidden–furthers that possibility. I pretty well understand, now, that the STBX always cheated, but there is no doubt that smart phones made that a whole lot easier. He essentially cheated right in front of me and the kids. I had no clue.

      As far as sexuality and aging goes, do not assume that menopause translates to loss of libido. Nope! That can happen, of course—and loss of libido is something that men and women, both, should discuss with their doctors–but automatic? Heck, no. Kids grown, comfort in one’s own skin, no pregnancy worries, no menstrual cycles to bother with–well, it’s all quite freeing. There’s no reason at all that humans cannot be fully sexual creatures their whole lives. Attitude plays a big role in that. Women who think that menopause is some sort of unmitigated crisis that spells the end of femininity might struggle, just as men who fight the realities of aging might struggle, but it’s a use it or lose it deal.

      Anyway, I think we need to remember that for many cheaters (mine, for sure) cheating is not really about the sex. It’s about power, image, and control. I have always had a far higher sex drive than the STBX, and I honestly think that flipped him out a good bit. It was as though a nice girl, and certainly a mommy, should not be all, “Okay, buddy! Let’s go!!!” all the time. I think he found it unseemly, or some such. So, for him, the move was to withhold. Never had what I would call enough sex in the whole marriage. Was really frustrating. That’s one of many respects in which I do not envy the young OW. He is fighting aging. He prefers porn to anything else. He manipulates and controls through access to sex. She will not, if she has a sex drive in the normal to high range for her age, be getting anything close to enough. Plus, he will always be drawn to forbidden sex, which is pretty difficult to sustain with one’s declared partner.

      Anyway, yeah. It’s complicated.

  • I think these “things the mistress knows that the wife would do well to learn” things–which are bloody endless–are part and parcel of the entire cultural and economic engine that is designed to keep females simultaneously frightened and in competition with one another. Mistresses should want to marry. Wives should want to be treated like mistresses. All women should be pretty certain, at every moment, that every single part of themselves from head to toe, and including mind and spirit, needs fixing.

    The hair should be longer, fuller, glossier. The eyes should be bigger. The lashes fuller. The skin should be lighter or darker or rosier or otherwise something that it is not. There should be no blemishes, and, indeed, an entire lack of pores would be best. The lips should be full and perpetually glistening and pouting. The teeth should be perfectly even and blindingly white. There should be no wrinkles, no lines, and no flaws. Assertive, ethnic, or otherwise unique noses should inspire insecurity. Breasts should be neither too big (they might sag), nor too small, and one should do what one must to achieve that, including sacrificing sensation and health. Any sort of illness is of course entirely forbidden. Nails should be perfect, which might mean either short and clean or long and lacquered. No small trick to turn on a dime, there. Waists should be small, hips curvy but not too full, and legs miles long. There should be no suggestion of fat anywhere, no scars or stretch marks, and really no evidence of having lived. Dry skin in a no. Sweaty skin is also a no. The entire body, but genetalia in particular, should be perfectly odorless, and any hair in that area should be removed to create the appearance of pre-pubescence. Hair on legs and under arms must also never be allowed to show. Feet should be sexy at all times. Moodiness or emotion of any sort should be ruthlessly managed. A female should always look and be pleasant and accommodating. Anger and disagreement? Total turn offs. Complaints? Highly unattractive.

    House, yard, children, car, pets, groceries, cooking, laundry, and all errands and tasks should be flawlessly and quietly managed. There should be zero expectations of one’s mate, but immediate gratitude for any small kindness of any sort.

    Intelligence is expected, but only within reasonable and appealing bounds. Uppity women are bitches, and that is no good. Brief, joyful, cute tears are okay, but sparingly. No snotty sobs or pained tears ever. Self-indulgent emotionalism is not sexy.

    Aging is to be avoided. Stay always within the narrowly acceptable range–maybe 18 to the early 30’s, at the most–or risk derision or simple erasure.

    Buy the things required to achieve all of this–pills, potions, gym memberships, clothes, surgeries–but don’t spend too much. Also, earn a good amount, but not more than the partner.

    Ideally, be both Virgin Mother and Talented Whore. Be both lovely, stable wife and dangerous, forbidden other woman. Be both youthful and worldly. Be both innocent and wise. Be both always ready and never demanding. Be perfect. Be endlessly perfect. Be always slightly afraid that other women might be more perfect than you, and bow out gracefully when you have the poor taste to age or commit any other sin that makes you replaceable.

    In short, of course other women and faithful wives are endlessly pitted against one another, as are women in general. The big win, though, is always the female pitted against herself, striving always for absolutely unattainable perfection, and thus ripe for abuse from every quarter.

    It’s the same-old same-old.

    This whole experience has really driven home the point that amazingly little has changed for females. Surface changes, sure, but in the deepest ways the objectification and devaluation are unvarying.

  • “He laughed. “How about we stop talking about it before this affair stops being fun?”

    I never convinced any husband that he could be honest about what he was doing.”

    …. Sometimes, when I look at my stupidity, and this stupidity on the other side (both assuming he wanted to be honest)

    I think that sometimes, women are stupid.

    • I prefer to think that women are emotionally enlightened and men just can’t keep up. Maybe our biggest mistake is assuming men aren’t stupid.

  • “What if you left your wife for me, then we could companion all the time! And you and me and Fluffy and Snowball could be a family! And sit on my sofa and watch Father Brown reruns! And you could take me to that wedding and introduce me as your cousin!”

    Ok you must have spies everywhere, Chump Lady. Yeah, I know cheaters just aren’t that original. This actually happened with Narcula and Sparkletwat the yoga camp troll. Shes got dogs. He has grown children her age. Hes taking her to our nieces wedding and I’m not even on the radar to be invited.

    Mind blown with the level of mindfuckery this idiot has towards affairs. Should be interesting to see what shes like in a few years with shes been used up by casual meet ups and NSA sex. The karma bus will be the size of a 757 super jet.

  • A classic Chump Lady cleaning up muddy waters. She is like the commercial of that greasy pan and a drop of Dawn clears that shit right up. The mental pretzel, Twister if you will, cheaters have to put their psychology through is an amazing feat. I really hope that everything in the Bible is true and like the Super Bowl, they sell tickets to Judgement Day. I want to see them try to pass this blubber by God. Unfortunately, the word around the Christian communities is that eyes will automatically be opened in the presence of God and they will feel morally convicted. I don’t want it that way – I just want to see these cheaters make a go PASS HELL AND GO STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN. Can a ticket price be, like, 10, 20, 60 seconds in the lake of fire? I think I would give up some time and suffer melting skin just to see these types try to get God’s judgment called out by one of these narcs – as if.

    • Alan,
      Oh, but if they go to church TOGETHER doesn’t that make them all better, does that not make their affair all sparkly and forgiven. These two cheaters were attending church together ! sO I guess they were both saved…or so they thought. They both must have thought that their “relationship” was ordained by god….wth? yeah, I am soooo sure that god put those two together and it was twu wuv…Oh wait theres a wife that you exchanged vows with…you assholes,…..what does that mean exactly? Oh, that’s right, god thought you two should be together ! Must be a new scripture on that that I did not know about.

  • New York Times may not want to hear from you, but the Twitterverse is still available!
    Karin Jones @mskainjones
    NY Times @NYTStyles

    You’re welcome!

    • You can also post comments on NYT’s Modern Love Facebook page, but why? As CL has said many times before, silence is the biggest FU to a cheating narcissist. Her story on ML’s Facebook only has 97 reactions, 3 comments and 15 shares. She has 234 Twitter followers. All to say that nobody really gives a shit about Karin Jones has to say, no matter how daring she thinks she is. The NYT wrote a provocative headline, but what it came down to was this very unoriginal angle:

      “I Sleep With Sad-Sack Married Men Because I Believe Them When They Tell Me Their Wives Won’t Give It Up.”

      I had to look her up: She’s the relationships editor for “Erotic Review” in England and writes columns where 1) she talks about “Micro-Cheating” and admits she created her Tinder profile while she and her husband were “breaking up” 2) she writes sentences such as, “Now, instead of my vagina being a small passage between my legs, it was the locus of my perception. I was all vagina.”

      Nobody seems to comment there, either.

        • Ha, right? I thought about changing my name from Path of Totality to Locus of My Perception.

        • In addition, I can’t see, hear, taste or smell because my locus of perception is all pussy! I am all hot wet orfice. Please let me perceive your lying, cheating, lazy dick!

  • I checked her out on Twitter. This was her latest tweet: “The thing that most surprised me about the response to my Modern Love piece was how many people were absolutely convinced these men were lying to me. If they were, does that change the point of the conversation?”

    • Stupid Karin ???????????? “Does that change the point of the conversation?” Hahahhahha uh yes because she’s telling us to have open honest convos with PATHOLOGICAL LIARS. I’m pretty sure we can all confirm that’s impossible. If her public service was to bang husbands who were deprived of sex… but they LIED about their deprivation to her… then doesn’t that make her advice to wives completely pointless. We are having sex with our spouses and trying to communicate with these LIARS. Their enjoyment is the lie. Their thrill is sex with wife, attention from multiple women, and a dirty little secret. Emphasis on dirty.
      The only one withholding anything in my marriage was him. He admitted it was so I would follow his orders and feel panic that i was going to lose him. He said he wanted me to try harder. He wanted to rule me with fear. He enjoyed it. As I tried harder he increased the abuse. After years of this he became so sure that i had no self esteem that he began sending me screenshots of whores from FB and Tinder to show me what a real woman looks like. Then threatened me if I asked a single question about who they are that he would abandon me. Thank you to all the Karins that assisted my husband with his God complex and my years of abuse. ????????????????

    • That’s akin to a cartoon being hit with a ‘BOING!’ Callout with a hammer and little birdies flying around her head.

      For you honey it doesn’t matter. Garbage is garbage. If you had the emotional IQ of a toaster oven you would understand that you’re a monster.

    • Well…….yes! The point of conversation changes greatly Karin Jones!

      These cheaters lie about their spouse to their fuck buddy. They lie to their spouse about where they are and what they are doing. They lie because if they didn’t they wouldn’t get the joy of deception and cake from both (or multiple) parties. Karin thinks she is saving husbands far and wide from sexless marriages and really all she is providing is another hole for these men to park their dick in. She is essentially a piece of ass they didn’t have to work hard to get! ANYONE can be that!

      Karin is a dim bulb!

  • The POINT is: They don’t have that conversation because it would allow the spouse the same fucking opportunity. It is ALL about having their cake.


  • “ But my attitude is that if my spouse were to need something I couldn’t give him, I wouldn’t keep him from getting it elsewhere, as long as he did so in a way that didn’t endanger our family”

    And yet she’s divorced.????

    • The Universal Theory of Unmet Needs rears its ugly head. I think these folks need a basic refresher in course in “needs” vs. “wants.”

      • You are correct. I think the whole “unmet needs” narrative is an invention of the IRC to blame shift the shittyness not the betrayed spouse.


        My ex needed a drink because she was thirsty. I got her a drink. I met her need.

        My ex needed food because she was hungry. I got her food. I met her need.

        My ex needed shelter away from the elements. I provided a roof over her head. I met her need.

        My ex wanted to fuck strange. That’s just a selfish asshole.

        I think the Karen aka the author of this post is full of self loathing. We don’t know why her marriage fell apart but if I were a betting man I’d say cheating.

        She hates this, and is out to show how weak willed married men are because that’s what I suspect her ex did to her.

        Never mind the empathy towards all those poor unsuspecting wife’s at home. They don’t count. Or better yet, they are to blame.

        The mind boggles.

        • Can’t beat them, join them mentality. No values or morals. Devoid of sentient life.

          My XW was similar to yours. Wanted to fuck strange because I couldn’t give her strange. I was her familiar at that point. Entitled cunt she is. Shallow, superficial, just like the rest of them.

  • I still love NYTimes, but Modern Love has just become ridiculous. Clearly, no one in their editor’s office has even been chumped, or they might refuse to continue to publish such schlock.

    FWIW, in my marriage, *I* was the one who was not getting my bell rung properly, and if ANYONE had the “right” to cheat, it was me. But I didn’t. You know why? Because I committed to this man, for better or worse, etc etc.

    You don’t even hear the real picture if you’re only hearing one side of the story. And, really, what are her Tindr hookups GOING to say, “Yeah, my wife is a saint. She’s amazing, holding down the fort and a job outside the home, caring for the kids and me, going to the gym, cooking healthy meals … Hey, wait a minute, why are you grabbing your keys? Don’t you want to fuck me anymore??”

    What this woman doesn’t understand is that they LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE … First and foremost to themselves, to convince themselves that what they’re doing is okay. Then to you, Karin, to make it all look good. All those excuses that make them seem so magnanimous and selfless (staying in the marriage for the wife, for the kids, etc) just shift around to suit their convenience.

    And, also, the time to HAVE that discussion about whether or not sex outside the marriage is okay, is BEFORE IT’S BEEN ALREADY HAD!!! And if the wife’s answer is No, then honor that or divorce.

  • Ahh the sympathetic portrayal of the cheating husband by the woman with whom they cheat. That train’s never late. I guess the bright line rule of “cheating is wrong and don’t do it” is too rigid for these people…or too complex? See, I can ask meaningless rhetorical questions too! Publish me NYT!

  • “Free sex not condoms needed”
    I’m not a skank you see. It’s ok if I do it to help the poor married men who tell me their wives don’t understand them.

  • LadyLiar withheld sex and had a long list of excuses, and I was aching for physical touch and emotional connection, but I didn’t cheat. Ultimately, when confronted with evidence of her affair and my insistence she leave our home, she said, “I lost my game. You didn’t even care if I gained weight/shaved my legs/whatever. But OW does.” Translation: I accepted my partner as she was because I loved her. I wanted her even when she wasn’t very sexy anymore, because I LOVED her. But she had to WORK FOR IT with the OW, which made her feel good about herself, which made her want OW but not me! Really???

    • Oh wow yeah, external focus, external validation, they all need it to function in a relationship. They are broken.

  • My thoughts of this post has me all over the place…

    Conversation with TEO if we were to ever have had an honest conversation:

    TEO: Molly, I’m not happy. I’ve been trying to get you to throw me out for years, but damn it, you’re just so set in your old ass ways of “marriage vows”… And “til death do us part…” I’ve done everything to you except put my hands on you because A) I don’t want to go back to jail; B) you’d probably kill me and get away with it with all that (air quotes) domesticated violence shit…

    Me: ya, I know, TEO, what was I thinking marrying you? I’m such a horrible wife. I’ve stayed faithful, loyal, supported you through numerous unemployment episodes, I’ve taken care if you, provided for you, raising our Autistic daughter practically single-handedly

    TEO: I’ve offered you a “hall pass” so many times, even offered to let you bring a stud home so I could watch… you’re just so married, you always refused. Even when I took you to a X theater and asked you to go approach a guy in the audience, and you wouldn’t!!! You’re so neglectful to my needs!!!

    Me: damn, TEO. I’m sorry you’ve felt so neglected!!! I’m home with you every night and weekends, listening to your endless mindless comments about the shit you took at work, stinking up the place. Or all the stupid videos you shared on Facebook and liked them all because no one else did and I felt sorry for you!!!

    TEO: and you’re always (again air quotes) decompressing from your stressful job by playing Candy Crush or Pet Rescue

    Me: …sigh… You’re right TEO. I guess I was selfish by decompressing after taking care of our daughter, keeping up with my older sons and their activities, working full-time, plus doing all the housework plus cooking and such.

    TEO: don’t comprehend me. I’m not stupid, Molly. I know you’re being petrolizing me.

    Me: um, I think you meant, not to be condescending, and that you think I’m patronizing you

    TEO: see!!! You’re impossible to live with!!! Always correcting me! I know I only have a GED from a jailhouse, but I’m super smart!!!

    Me: OK, we’re getting off topic. You’re not happy sponging off of me, ignoring my needs, being a shitty dad, barely working, with a shit personality to boot?! Hhhhmmmm, guess you’re in quite a predicament, huh?

    TEO: that’s it!!! I can’t talk to you when you try to project yourself on to me. I’m going for a drive and will leave my open so you can see my PM with my hope-to-be OW and find out I’m leaving. Oh, I’ll be watching on my webcam remotely connected to my phone so I can watch.

    Me: OK, I’ll be home alone yet again with DD doing laundry and cleaning

    TEO: bye

    As far as Karin goes, fuck off skank.

    Excellent post again, CL!!!

  • I have tried not to be hateful and venomous towards the women who agreed to fuck my husband. Most of them were paid for their services, but I suspect that there were a few who weren’t, and I know that some of the women he met through dating websites and chat rooms were married too. Honestly, I don’t care if they were hookers or housewives. They all suck. I broke down once and anonymously contacted one of his favorite escorts through Instagram and we exchanged our thoughts and perspectives on female sexual empowerment and relationship dynamics. She was kind enough to explain why I was really just lacking empathy and needed to see a therapist for my emotional issues. Then she sent me a link to a podcast on realistic relationship expectations and asked me why I thought my husband needed to see her. I told her it was because he was a narcissistic man-child who was too much of a chicken shit to take responsibility for his decisions and chose to blame everyone else for his problems. I also told her that giving me relationship advice was most unwise.

    I suggested that she should consider other ways of paying for her trips to Bali and Vegas, her artisanal weed selection, her daily $8 coffees, and her collection of unicorn onesies. She assured me that she didn’t make it a habit of being “friends” with married men, but there wasn’t much she could do about it anyway. What was she supposed to do? Ask them if they were married? How gauche! I asked if maybe her friendships were the reason why all of her boyfriends had left her.

    In the end, we agreed to disagree. Women like my Instagram friend and the one who wrote the ML piece all function in a world of denial and self-delusion so that they can justify their atrocious choices. What looks like self-determination and empowerment is really just smoke and mirrors. They use men that they can’t have to soothe themselves-physically, financially, and emotionally-with no regard for the cost it has on others. It’s a disgusting shame that the idiots who praise the author’s shallow viewpoint don’t see through it.

  • Hello Chump Lady,

    GREAT ONE!!!! I am so grateful that you, Chump Lady, are taking on these “other women” who aid and abet cheaters.

    In my mind, infidelity is a crime and it is certainly a crime according to the 10 Commandments.

    But, Bible schmible, what does a book written thousands of years ago have to do with modern day? We are surely more savvy and hip and know that extramarital sex helps all those poor, lonely, married men out there. (Sarcasm)

    I am an odd person because when I was single, you have no idea what lengths I would go to in order to ensure a man DID NOT have a girlfriend, a fiance, or a wife.

    I was somehow born with this idea that you don’t hurt other people.

    You especially don’t hurt others by dating/having sex with a man in a so-called monogamous relationship.

    I could not stand to be responsible for making an innocent woman out there cry and have her life shattered. There are other women who may not care about the girlfriend/wife and how much the gf/wife suffered, but I cared. So, I made sure I did not date men in relationships.

    The second part was, why would I want a cheater? How would being with a cheater benefit me? It would end up ruining my life.

    Dogs gonna be dogs and pee on other people’s lawns and cheaters gonna cheat on other people’s lawns.

    But, here is the thing that makes me crazy-angry. It is the idea that condoms don’t prevent cancerous forms of the human papilloma virus.

    You see, the funniest thing happened to me because of infidelity and HPV.

    I had never had an STD. I was monogamous to and dated/engaged to someone over a period of about 4 years. I got regular pap smears and check-ups and everything was fine. A year and a half passed at one point where I did not get a check up. I got too busy and assumed everything was fine. My fiance broke up with me and physically harmed me in order to get me to leave my house. After that, I found out it was all because of an other woman he was having sex with who had wanted to moved in. By the way, she knew fully about me and the fact that I was engaged before she decided to pursue my fiance. She told others it was a fun challenge to hurt another woman. So it was, she moved in to my house with him. I hired attorneys.

    BUT, even more importantly, I high-tailed it to my doctor and got every STD test under the sun.

    I was holding my breath waiting for the AIDS results to come back.

    Those were clean. Momentarily I had a weight lifted off my shoulders– at least he did not give me an STD. I breathed a sigh of relief.

    Ahh, that breath of relief was a lie.

    There was another problem…

    My test results indicated I had cervical cancer.


    After the doctor and I went over my sexual history and I told him about the other woman. He let me know that there was about a 99% chance the other woman passed along a cancerous and fast-growing HPV to me.

    I was 29 and had cervical cancer. And I needed immediate treatment. I got the treatment, but the treatment endangered by ability to have children.

    Yes, folks, this stuff happens in real life.

    So, I had to deal with the insanity of a break-up, the fight over a house that was not his to take, and several procedures to get rid of the cancer.

    I was crushed, I was pissed, I was livid– it was all beyond words.

    I got rid of the cervical cancer. I got married to someone who had also been Chumped, I had two high risk pregnancies, but luckily had two wonderful children. I have had clean paps for years. (Fingers crossed).

    This is the stuff no one talks about. (I am not talking about you, Chump Lady. You talk about these things all the time.)

    Some people in the mainstream media never really talk about this stuff. They make affairs seem sexy and harmless. They say no harm is done if the betrayed spouse does not find out. “It’s all good, just relax, people! What she does not know will not hurt her!”

    NOT TRUE. What she does not know could kill her.

    Most men who cheat also have sex with their wives. Wives get all kinds of terrible diseases from their husbands.

    And people like Esther Perel talk about reinventing marriage and how affairs can be positive.

    What is there to reinvent after an STD?


    There is no reinventing and saying the affair was good for your marriage after you have been gifted herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis, and cancerous forms HPV. Those gifts certainly out-do a Tiffany’s diamond bracelet any day. No? (Of course, sarcasm.)

    Now, here is the coup de grâce for all of us Chumps.

    A pharmacy in the United Kingdom developed a calculator to find out how many “secondary sexual partners” you have had based on having sex with one person. For example, a person who had had sex with 6 people had about 3 million INDIRECT sexual partners. Now, think about how many secondary sexual partners a cheating husband or wife brings home to his spouse. Here is the calculator. It makes one of the best cases for why there is no such thing as consequence-free sex. (Especially when you think about how this calculator impacts betrayed spouses).

    Many blessings to everyone and thank you, Chump Lady, for taking these mistresses on and calling them out on the harm they do to others. Someone has to be a voice of sanity.

    Many blessings,

    Sarah P.

    • Sarah P–so sorry you ended up with cervical cancer, but lots of rejoicing that you ended up with two wonderful children, despite that scare, and a happy marriage.

      You’re right–these dangers do not calculate into Esther Perel’s “exuberance” factor of affairs, and they damn well should.

      • Hello Tempest,

        Thank you for your kind words. Thank goodness my story had a good ending. And other people can have a good ending too with time and discernment. What happened to me also caused me to dedicate a good deal of my writing to this topic. These are life altering experiences. They cannot be taken back but we can redefine ourselves and empower ourselves.

        I don’t know if anyone has noticed that there are several authors working in the affair recovery area, but they have become affair apologists.

        I write articles about how to recover for those who want to fight for their marriage, but I also make it clear there are many marriages not worth recovering. I also say cheating is a choice and has 100% to do with the cheater and his or her issues and nothing to do with the betrayed spouse. I pin the problem completely on the cheater in terms of the marriage but the other person is not some innocent little dove either. The ones who go after married people are also to blame, but the person who chose to cheat is still fully to blame. It doesn’t matter if someone is coming onto you. The word is “No.” Anyhow I am thinking Esther Perel is an affair apologist— not someone there to help betrayed spouses. That bothers me because anyone writing and working in affair recovery should be on the betrayed spouses side and to make that clear. In affair recovery we are trying to recover the decimated soul of the betrayed spouse and help it heal. Anyhow, I thought of that today and it really bugged me. The wrong book could drive a betrayed spouse off the deep end and give the cheater an excuse. It is very wrong.

        Just had that observation and needed to share it.

        Chump Lady, Tempedt, or does anyone know authors who would fall into the affair apologist catagory? (I am trying to avoid their material as sources.) I don’t want to make the mistake of reading material or bringing in ideas from authors who lay blame on the betrayed or who suggest that the betrayed needs to figure out what they were doing to cause the wayward spouse to cheat. That view has got to go.

        After all, if we had the power to make someone cheat, that would also mean we had the power to make them faithful. People have power over themselves and their actions. Time to end the narrative that a Chunp made their spouse cheat.


      • Creativerational,

        If they allowed comments, I sure would. But, if I did, I would catch the typo of Tempest’s name (sorry Tempest) and not fat finger everything on my phone.


  • Sadly this post and many well intended comments triggered much hurt and anxiety for me. I realize I am not as far along the healing process as I’d hoped I would be by now. I guess we all have our own timelines. That in itself is important too. Thanks CN

    • Kibble-less,
      I know what it’s like to think that one would have been dither along in the healing process by now. Sending you a virtual hug!

  • I always had a higher sex drive than my ex. I could have gone every day, but he was more of an every-other-day (at most) kind of guy. If I pushed him for my pace, he would get sore and cranky. There’s nothing wrong with that, I just learned to live with his pace.

    Now he tells these dumb women he sleeps with that I wouldn’t put out, withheld sex as a weapon to punish him, and that he wants sex “every day.”

    If you believe a cheater who says he is starved for sex at home, you are an idiot.

    • Rarity, I’ll take your word for your experience, but overgeneralizing that all men who cheat have coitus on tap makes hyperbole a small word. Having come out of a marriage of 21 years and 46 times around the sun, I see a host of factors that lead to these outcomes. While I opened myself up to the fairer sex only after separation had been agreed to and having done all I could to save the relationship to no avail, sex had become rare and a weapon of abuse if at all. The only time I question the character of a cheater is if they’ve not done all they reasonably could to save the marriage, and it’s a two person job, as any therapist worth her salt will tell you. That said, unless some other mitigating circumstance makes it prohibitive, I think everyone just needs to adult and be aware of what they want and need- if the partner refuses to work the problems, all bets are off and time to move on. That said, I don’t think any man or woman owes their partner abstinence, it’s not black and white. My 2 cents.

    • Yet my disordered X was withholding…. When I shared my thoughts about our sex life (I fantasized of making love on the trampoline in the middle of nowhere, so no chance of anyone stumbling across two ol’ married people getting it on), X shot them down. So no fantasies, or sex, for the old ball and chain, as only the AP deserved his perfect self. (Snort) I do believe the disordered have an unnatural/unhealthy view of sex, and mine never got better at pleasing me. Nevertheless I was “a great Mom” by his admission in court.

  • I was in an open r’ship. And totally NOT wanting anything to do with married men. But one time,,,,he was bisexual, and married….I approached the 3some we had with him with a curiosity about how it would make me feel, knowing his wife was probably unaware. Wondering if my distaste of the thought that there were married men out there playing around, and my aversion to their dishonesty…was actually genuine and not just fabricated to match the sexual adventure/but I’m still a good person! period we were in.

    Well…It made me feel dirty. Guilty. More able to imagine the distress of his wife. And absolutely
    giving me the unwanted taste of how it would feel when I was having it done to me.

    I’m so glad that phase of my life is over. Even though my life is crushed….and we’re not the same people as a couple or as individuals….I’ve learned so much about how my happiness can spin on a dime, and more often than not…it’s not even my dime I’m spinning on

  • If you are bothered by a husband cheating a wife who doesn’t fuck with him and bothered that there are women out there who exploit this easy source of sex, well, sorry, everybody knows you cheat and demand fidelity at the same time.

    I had a couple of girlfriend like this, I have plenty of female friends like this, worst of all, you do everything to neg your own SO, put them down and worst, drive them to ugly themselves. “Why are you bitching about him spending time in the gym, his body is 90% of the reason why you had me hit on him for you.” (you can exchange gym with grooming in general, being social, playing, working hard, etc…)

    Stop being a little bitch, being cheated on is nothing, and if you think it’s go curse the mother of a drug lord and get some perspective on what’s something, because most of us never needed to do a thing to experience it.

    And yes, I got cheated on, several times, never ended a relationship because of it, I cheated only one, she admitted to cheating also and then she broke up. (She cheated for funsies, I cheated because I was a needy puppy and I felt like her escort, all she had me for was sex and parties. Why she insisted on dating when she was using me as a casual thing is something I wonder.)

    Goddamn the amount of times I got threatened by cheating girlfriend because I had “way too many female friends is way too high.

    Of course there a guys just like you, they are here agreeing with you in the comment section.

  • Did you know that if you search for “Karin Jones the slut” on Google this is the first website that comes up.

  • It’s not the wife’s fault if her asshole of a husband can’t keep that thing between his legs in his pants. Men… Don’t get married if you’re not sure you can be monogamous, if you don’t want commitment, then f*ck until you have AIDS — don’t settle down. If you think your wife can’t satisfy you, then something is wrong with you. Maybe it has downsized due to age. Never blame your wife for giving life to you kids and for putting your family first. Ladies, pack and leave that asshole behind. You and your kids deserve better.

  • Yeah right on ! Love your post. These dumasses think women ‘are clean’ because they wear a suit and rub their tits on your husband to seduce them. Or because they play a role to get into the guys pants. All that ‘glitters’ is not gold. These men think with their thing and I am sure that they are not putting on a condom to screw these ho’s. W?hat would be the point of that if they want to get their rocks off with strange. They aren’t going into it with “oh, I should be safe and wear a condom with this bitch whore” No, they are trusting the whore because they are thinking with their brainless d”ck. And what boredom it would be if they had to use a condom. From Boardroom to bedroom and conference room. Free F”cks from the company whore. Wait, she knows how to use powerpoint presentations she must be “smart” she must be “clean” ….NO, she’s a whore, she’s been down that road before with other men……SO, you are right, if you want to screw the HO HO’s then don’t get married !! OR get divorced and screw until herpes and other diseases arrive.

  • The fact is, there’s truly little anyone can do to control what someone else chooses to do. Knowing that is initially frightening, but eventually reassuring. Do your utmost for you, try to be a good human and keep your fingers crossed. You will be okay in the end.

  • God dayum, there is a lot of salty moms in here. No one gets triggered rage so clearly and beautifully put out there over text like you gals do. I love it!

  • I do trust all the concepts you’ve introduced
    in your post. They’re really convincing and can certainly work.

    Still, the posts are very brief for starters. Could you please extend them a bit from next time?

    Thanks for the post.

  • >