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Where Is Their SHAME?

Stabby asked a good rhetorical question this week about her cheating ex who was blatantly appropriating her work — WHERE IS THE SHAME?!

Really, we could put this question to a lot of scenarios. Sexting pictures of your wrinkly junk to randos? WHERE IS YOUR SHAME, SIR! Walking out on your children for your fuckbuddy? WHERE IS YOUR SHAME? Not paying support and getting sulky about adulting? WHERE IS YOUR SHAME?!

So many fuckwits, so little shame! To the Reconciliation Industrial Complex selling vulnerable people affair-proof-your-marriage snake oil? WHERE IS YOUR SHAME? (Heck, where is the Better Business Bureau?)

Now, Dr. George Simon, friend of the blog, has a lot to say about shame — namely that it doesn’t work on fuckwits (putting it in laymen’s terms). But it works terrifically well on chumps. Appeal to our sense of shame? Call us selfish? Insinuate that we’re quitters? By golly we’ll work THAT MUCH HARDER! If you want to manipulate someone, you need a conscience to provoke. Little to no conscience? Not much shame.

So your Fun Friday Challenge is to tell CN where their shame is. Did it run off with a hooker? Get itself stuck in a ditch? Ascend to Jesus? Where is it exactly? Have you had any sightings?

TGIF!

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  • Where is his SHAME?
    Left in the empty box from the Jackrabbit vibrator he gave her for Christmas (because nothing says, “Happy birthday, Jesus” like a battery-powered stand-in for porn-dick).
    Skank’s comment about the gift was equally puddle-deep: “It made me a better person.”
    I’m sure her husband and special needs child have more shame than she ever covered in that thong selfie.

      • I think that all the side pieces should receive dildos in the mail. Especially the side howorker that is definitely having a dry spell now that con man cheater is now dead. I would say a gift is in order !

    • Hey – mine went out and bought a sex toy on our joint credit card two weeks after he left. He said it was because he was “having trouble”. From what I have learned since, he bought a toy for her and let me reconcile the bills that month so it my nose would be rubbed in their “tru wuv”.

      • UGH! There IS. No. Shame. with them. Nauseating!
        “Having trouble” is that a new term for cheating?

  • You know, I’ve had to accept this week that they just don’t have a Shame Channel. It only comes in a bundle with the Sense of Decency Channel and it’s not compatible with the Cake and Hot Dirty Fuckfest Channels.

    This morning my daughter will be discharged from the hospital. She was feeling suicidal over things socially and academically at school.

    Her father has not visited her once. Oh, he’s oddly very invested in anything that happens with her heart condition. Although statistically it only has a 2.9% chance of a cardiac arrest episode, it’s genetic and very rare. He gets treated like a research celebrity st the Children’s Cardiology Clinic. Kibbles! The man who could not tell you the name of his daughter’s math teacher or dentist, but suddenly insisted on taking her to all her specialty cardiology appointments.

    She’s at the same hospital now, but no visit, no family therapy no phone call. Doing so would require he answer questions about how his Infidelity and physical and verbal abuse has affected his child. It would require he take time off from work that he prefers to save fore his own personal drama.

    That stuff is icky. It’s easier to just say his daughter’s mom is making a big deal out of nothing and refuse to visit his own child.

    I just can’t imagine it. There isn’t a river deep enough to keep me from my kids when needed, in hospital or ill. Depression in Adolescence is common, not a character defect because you think their Mom is a Bitch since she stopped letting you get away with shit. Jesus even the depressed 13 year old understands that concept! That having enforced boundaries and dealbreakers does not make someone mean or a Bitch.

    Watch. The next cardiology appointment he’ll offer to take her, and in a few days will call her like nothing happened and see if she wants to go to the mall. He will not buy her underwear, shorts, a spring jacket or anything else she needs, because there’s no glamour in that! He has no idea what she needs, and depression is icky! Have a coffee milkshake, kid! A poster from the teenage ennui store!

    He will strut right into Cardiology like they don’t have Records of a Ternage Ghost Dad in Adolescent Psych. He’ll minimize her feeling and tell them she’s doing great.

    When you stop expecting Decency, it’s amazing how well you can predict the future, but it’s still a little amazing when they do the thing they do.

    • Luz, I’m so sorry about your daughter. Simple decency for a beautiful child is unbelievable. Thank God she has a stron mom to weather the storm.

      After being abandoned by both her mom when she was young and her grandfather four years ago my granddaughter entered a treatment program. She wanted me to ride in the rescue to the hospital. After months of family therapy my daughter, her mom invited the Limited to a therapy session.

      What did they spend their time doing with this amazing child? They tried to schedule time to see her with the therapist. The Limited was able to muster these words, “I DON’T know what happened.” Her mom talked about herself. Not ONCE did they touch upon what they DID. Not an ounce of Shame or Decency.

      My Lovie said, “I could give a Fuck about seeing either one of them.” And she hasn’t seen either of them in years. She’s doing amazing with one year of high school left.

      I pray for your daughter. As they grow they figure it out. Wishin the both of you strength and peace.

    • Luz, you ARE her light, her sane present parent – she is so lucky to have you! I work in a psych hospital and invested, attuned, supportive parents ROCK. Ghosts? Part of the problem, obvs! I’m holding you & DD in my heart. My own DD16 is the best gift ever and half of the living proof that something good can come of bearing f*wits (DD22 the other 50%).
      You crack me up with your narc channel bundles! I love your tunr of a phrase, sister.

    • Yes. Yes. Yes yes yes. Luz I feel your despair and send warmth and strength. They are freaky creepy weirdos. The basic diagnosis.

      I know exactly what you mean about getting your head around just how disconnected and bizarre they are …. but they can still astound you. That’s usually when the are kids suffering.

      The crux of it is how meaningless they can make those of us mistaken enough to love them (what we thought they were) and to imagine/project reciprocal love. That’s us chumps and our poor children.

    • Luz – I hope DD is getting better and comes out the other side even stronger.

      Best wishes and hug to you both !!

      • I have been really thankful for the stay, really. I can see the relief in her that her feelings are being taken seriously and that she matters. I’m ready to do whatever it takes to keep her safe.

        I’m also thankful for your warm wishes. It helps a lot to talk to people who understand.

        • I completely understand. My 14-yr old daughter was cutting when Shitforshame left, and it has been a long hard road back. Came to find out he has been molesting her, which explains why he treated her so differently than her three older siblings. I realize now he was targeting her and keeping her emotionally off balance because she knew about his affair with her best friend’s mom for more than a year, and was focused on keeping her from talking about either of his perverted secrets. I moved over 1000 miles away so my kids could heal out of reach of their disordered father. She will turn 18 in a few months, and has become a confident young woman, who has actually written an amazing song from the perspective of Chump teens. Hoping to help her get it recorded this fall to help her deal with the pain in a therapeutic way, affect a sort of closure for her that her father would never provide, and to give a voice to so many hurting teens who are forced to deal with unfathomable trauma at the hands of the person they trusted most in this world.

          Like us, validation is key for our kids. Their fuckwit fathers and mothers dismiss their pain and just look past it because dealing with themselves being the cause is not part of their new life plan. But when they feel heard, they feel empowered, and that is the gift you are giving your daughter! Hugs to you both, and I wish you continued emotional and physical recovery!

          • Your partner was molesting your 14 yo DD ?

            Is this guy in jail yet ??

            Cheating on a spouse is one thing. Molesting a minor is completely something else

            • It would have come down to a he-said-she-said sorta thing, and my daughter was not strong enough at the time to pursue it. Her counselor said that he is a mandated reporter but would not report it if she didn’t want to, since she was in no further danger. The counselor even said her father called trying to fish for what DD was revealing in their sessions, and the counselor realized then what we were up against. So no, there is no justice. But we survived him. There’s that. And her siblings know and believe her, so have very little to do with him.

              • Isn’t a mandated reporter MANDATED to report? That seems shocking, that he would let your daughter decide. That sounds wacky.

              • Giant flashing red light here! Either you made up the story of your daughter’s abuse to dramatize your post, or your therapist has committed a MAJOR legal and ethical lapse and should lose their license immediately. Mandated reporters don’t get to pick and choose. They are MANDATED!! If your therapist knows your kid was molested and says nothing, you need a new therapist, stat.

              • OwlBaby

                Any court proceding comes down to “It would have come down to a he-said-she-said sorta thing”. That’s why we have lawyers and judges and juries.

                Charges are laid, witnesses are called, then it’s up to said judges and juries to decide who’s telling the truth or not.

                If you don’t believe me, go and ask Larry Nassar whether he thought he would get caught out molesting young girls in his care.

                I am seriously angry about what has happened to your DD.
                My next question is: Who is going to be the ex’s next victim ?

                Please – for DD’s sake, report this guy to the authorities and let the process sort him out.

              • Mandatory reporting (at least where I live/work) is mandatory reporting and is not in any way discretionary. Having said that, to answer the other issues, that does not at all mean that he would have been prosecuted. It would depend on many factors, most notably adequate proof which is often very hard to obtain.
                I work with many (adults) who have been sexually abused as children. It is often very devastating, although for many of my patients that has been much exacerbated by not being believed, which is, thankfully not the case here. I also see many people, where the process of attempting to obtain justice (either for them or society as a whole) has been almost more scarring than the actual abuse. That may be hard to believe, but is is my observation, and I know others’ in the field, who say the same. The prosecution process is brutal and often unsuccessful and leaves people feeling doubly wounded. Yes, it leaves him still open to molesting (mandatory reporting should have impacted that although may not have made a huge difference but should still have occurred) but prosecution doesn’t necessarily stop that and, when it is your child, who is often unstable and suffering enough, that is a hard judgement to call. As an adult, providing you are prepared for the process and the strong chance of it not succeeding I think you can make an informed consent choice about it but I wouldn’t judge someone for not pursuing this legally until you have been in that situation. I can fully understand prioritising your daughter’s wellbeing in the here and now, especially when she was previously suicidal. When she is older she can make a decision, if she wants – and is up to it.
                My daughter was also suicidal and self-harmed (now 15) before her father left, but it escalated a lot in the wake of his behaviour and introduction of OW just a few days after leaving. His last email to her 5 months ago resulted in her self-cutting (after 6 months with none) and she has had no contact with him since. She is so much better in her mood now she knows she doesn’t have to see him (at least for a while). I would say I am pretty sure he never molested her (she has had a lot of opportunity to tell safely, I think) although it is strange – I would never considered this a possibility before he left but as I see him more fully, not just in his behaviour towards me but also towards his children (particularly eldest but mostly as she has been less compliant), nothing would truly shock me. A sad state.
                I am so glad your daughter is doing well. Being believed – and protected, is so valuable, which is what you did do.

          • Owlbaby, your ex is a sick freak of the highest order. After reading your post I have such an overwhelming urge to remove his penis with a butter knife and feed it to him whole.
            I am praying for strength and healing for you and your daughter. 💜

            • Thank you so much for a belly laugh, that felt so good!! See, this is why I come here, so much better than costly therapy, with humor to boot 😜

            • can someone tell me what it means for your cheater to have a large 8 x 10 picture ( or had) it on his desk at work of his niece? Doesn’t that seem strange. She was some form of supply but I don’t know if it could have been sexual? After all, he had the howorker that was providing copious amount of ho worker sex because she was getting lovebombed as a result of her sleezy ho-ness. But it puzzles to me have found this big ugly niece on his desk. ? sorry but her head took up the whole 8×10 picture. There was just no area around her head in the picture cuz it was taken up by the size of her head. ? I am still wondering what that was all about?

              • It’s very questionable and disturbing, that’s what it is.

          • Oh, Owlbaby…your MIGHTY is awe-inspiring. Your daughter is so fortunate to have you in her corner. I don’t have any other words.

            • Thank you, CD. Don’t feel very mighty these days, weary is more like it. Thanks for the reminder, though!

              • Owlbaby,
                I am very sorry to hear about your daughter being molested.

                I was sexually assaulted as a child and a teen. Not until I was approximately 50 years old did I realize how it might have affected how I conducted my relationships what I did and tolerated). I sometimes now think about contacting my abuser, a sociopathic narcissist to this day, and telling him that what he did was illegal and completely unacceptable.

          • Just last night I read the most achingly beautiful, gut-wrenching essay about a young women and the abuse inflicted on her as a child. She describes how she tried to make sense of what happened to her but of course she could not because it made no sense. Some things are so unfair and so terrible that they defy understanding and explanation.
            She writes in an advice column. Perhaps it will be helpful to your daughter. It was helpful to me, not because I have been molested, but because some things that are horrible have to be transcended.

            http://therumpus.net/2010/06/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-39-the-baby-bird/

          • Our daughter never made her First Holy Communion when she was 7 due to various reasons,so when she was 14,just 2 months shy of 15,we had her do it with the class of the 7 and 8 year olds.We dressed her the same as the little girls in the poofy,short sleeve,knee length,communion dress and veil with the lace anklets and the white ‘mary jane’shoes.Under her dress,we did the same traditional white tee shirt,cloth communion diaper and rubberpants over it as worn by the little girls.After her party,her boyfriend,Jason,who was 15,took her to his house and his parents were gone for the weekend.After a while,i went over to Jason’s house and caught the daughter and Jason fooling around! She had her Communion dress off and her tee shirt and was just in her veil,diaper,rubberpants and anklets and was on her knees giving Jason oral sex!I was shocked and flabbergasted to say the least! She told me they were kissing and Jason put his hand under her dress and felt her diaper and rubberpants and got very aroused and took her dress and tee shirt off of her and told her he wanted a “blowjob” and thats what she was doing when i caught them!I couldnt believe she would do something like this on her First Holy Communion day!

        • I am glad your daughter has you looking out for her. It must make you anxious having already lost a child but she has to know that you lover her and that surely helps. I can’t understand why your ex doesn’t share your anxiety, but then there is a lot I don’t understand about people like him.

          My daughter also suffers from anxiety and depression (nor directly related to her Dad’s escapades although that surely didn’t help). She went through a brief period where she was expressing suicidal thoughts and it was very scary. No hospitalizations, but a few extra visits to her therapist with Mom along as well. Initially her Dad didn’t take her mental issues seriously, but he eventually accepted that there is something more to it than teenage girl drama. He has decided, however, that it is just the books she reads and/or the TV she watches that is the cause of it all and just having her read more uplifting fiction and/or shutting off the internet will solve all of her problems.

          She is going very far away to college next year. She is excited about it and she is generally a responsible person who knows to seek help when she needs it, but it still makes me anxious to have her so far away where I can’t get to her in a hurry if she needs me. I just hope I will be able to provide adequate support through e-mail, phone, facetime, etc. if/when she needs it. She seems to be doing much better these days but college can be stress inducing.

        • I understand too. My girl was very close to her dad. He walked out on us when she was 16 without a look back and she has refused to speak to him since. She’s a cutter and was suicidally depressed last year, but did her father try to contact her? Nope. (I’ve told him numerous times: say you’re sorry for the way you left and she’ll talk to you. But nope. He can’t and won’t say he’s sorry, even to have a relationship with his only daughter.)

          • And you know what? It’s been five years and I’m not at meh. I don’t think I’ll ever be at meh after the way he treated my kids. I will just never not be angry and I’m OK with that. Some things you should stay angry about.

            • You raise a good point Alicia. It is one thing to let go of anger for transgressions against you but another thing entirely when it comes to your kids. But the challenge is not to let that anger get in the way of moving on into your mightiness.
              Sometimes anger points the way. So yeah, I support a lifetime of middle fingers to him on behave of your kiddos.

            • Exactly! Could not agree more. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a righteous anger that protects!

              • By the way, Owlbaby,
                After my husband filed for divorce and accused me of abusing our kids,I was informed by some very reliable sources, independent of each other, that my husband beat our young kids with a belt. Wish tat I could have gotten supervised visitation for the kids’ sake. One reason I stayed until he filed–I was acting as a human shield because I had a strong gut feeling…

            • Alicia – thank you for saying that. My ex left when my eldest daughter was 14 (now 15 and 1/2). She has had OCD since she was 6 and had had a lot of school anxiety (at a previous school due to bullying) when she had cut and had suicidal thoughts but that was pretty well better when he left.
              He told her about OW 5 days after he left (empathyless asshole was so excited he thought she would be too) then insisted on introducing her to kids v soon after this, I’m not sure exact timeline, he lied but she was sitting there with them ignoring her within 2-3 weeks. Anyway, this continued in various forms every time they visited over next few weeks, with her becoming more and more distressed, cutting and suicidal, but he wouldn’t listen. The night he got back from 3 week trip with OW to meet his parents (2 months after leaving) 4 policeman turned up at my door saying that they had been contacted by suicide helpline DD had contacted before I got home from work saying she was thinking about putting a rope around her neck. Thankfully she was ok but we had ED visit with all documented and followed up by her psychiatrist/psychologist. He continued on, though, and married OW less than 5 months after leaving, has refused to have any contact with my daughter without her present (says a lot about her too that she goes along with this, even if she hasn’t instigated it – which I don’t know either way). He has ignored her needs and treated her like he treated me, blaming her and playing the victim. The last email she had from him just after Christmas (which was better than the one he sent me about her which she never saw) about her not visiting whilst his parents were here she cut after again – the first time in about 6 months. He has been so awful. I arranged family therapy, but he leaves all the responsibility on her, won’t apologise for anything, won’t accomodate her needs at all – and still places it all on her. She has chosen to go officially no contact with him for the next 3 months (although hadn’t seen him since Christmas) and is just so much lighter in mood. It has impacted her younger sister too – she goes but is often very anxious about it, and it is very divisive to have one going and one not. I don’t know what will happen with her in years to come, particularly if she stops being the cute, compliant thing she is for them still.
              He neglected the children before he left – more so than I had realised (although now in retrospect blindingly obvious even though I had spackled for him with them) and his relationship was tenuous before he left, although I’m pretty sure he was too blind to see that.
              He psychologically and emotionally abused me for 20 years. That I can let go of – I realise now it wasn’t personal, I was just a convenient receptacle. For myself meh seems very doable – and I am so glad not to be with him, although I hate that he is in my life as a coparent – he still uses this to punish me at times, but still for myself I can see being able to let this go.
              What I cannot imagine being at meh with is the way he has treated my children – particularly my eldest daughter. This is so abhorrent, so beyond what I could imagine – and ongoing, how can I let that go? How is it right to let it go? I have no idea. I hope that she can find some “meh” with regard to it – I think that is much more likely now she essentially has no contact, although the fact that that is the only way is pretty shitty in itself. I find this very hard to answer. It is good to hear other people struggling with this (IYKWIM). A shit place for us all to be, but a reality, and I have no real answer, at least not now. Thanks for raising this.

              • Fern – I have just read your line about not letting that anger get in the way of your journey to mightiness being the challenge. I love that. I think that is probably the only way.

        • Luziana this breaks my heart. Thank goodness your daughter has you to be her mama bear and help her through this. My DD17 attempted suicide a year ago, and I found her still alive and called 911. CN has it right – teenagers are often exposed to toxic and bullying social conditions despite schools’ much-advertised “zero tolerance,” and having a Douchebag for a parent only makes it worse. In my case, DB visited her in the hospital but promptly left town on a “business” trip. Fast forward 3 months to D-Day1, and I told DB that we had to both go to our daughter’s therapist appointment to tell her, in a safe environment in front of her therapist, that we were getting a divorce. I had to schedule the appointment, then reschedule it because he was too busy to make the first one, then text him the name and address of the therapist as he had no clue she was even seeing one. Before I went NC, I had been trained over many years to accept this heartless behavior as normal. Because I am proud of her, I also wanted to mention that my daughter recently became aware through social media of another teenager who had attempted suicide, someone she did not know, and she reached out to that person and offered her story and a sympathetic ear.

          • Your daughter sounds like a strong and kind young woman. It takes courage to reach out and share your pain to help another.

            My daughter experiences quite a bit of bullying at school, which we’ve been dealing with in conjunction with an awesome school support team. But her dad and his girlfriend essentially bullied her too, and she was so crushed. “Even my dad is bullying me.” He’s all concerned when someone else does it but can’t see his own behavior.

        • Luziana,
          I’m so sorry to hear your daughter is suffering. I’m so very happy that she feels the hospital is helping. Having suffered depression myself, I recognise the relief when finally that black dog is called out and dealt with. For me, it really did help a lot to have it named and explained by my G.P. Went a long way to my recovery.

          I’m not surprised (though obviously saddened) that her Dad has reacted the way he has. Just as you say – not glamorous enough, could possibly have something to do with his behaviour over the years so doesn’t want to think about that with a barge pole, might make people think he’s not so sparkly after all, and hey, why not blame Luziana for it – easy target.

          Luziana, you are one of the loveliest people I know. Your writing shows a kind, loving, intelligent (emotionally and academically) humorous and considerate soul. I am sure your beautiful daughter is cut from the same cloth (how could she not be) – sadly, I think, that gentleness of spirit is also what makes her vulnerable to depression and emotional suffering – but even so, even if the price to be paid for being such lovely people is the pain felt by having such an open heart, would either of you want it any other way? Who’d want to be like her father? Who’d choose to be a selfish, superficial fuckwit?

          Love you Luziana, sending warmth and strength to your lovely girl from across the pond xxx

    • I am so sorry that your daughter has had to pay such a steep price price for her father’s infidelity. It is maddening the way children’s feelings are ignored or dismissed by cheaters. After all, infidelity happens to them, too. It used to infuriate me when people would tell me my kids were going to “bounce back.” Ugh, no, their father blew up their world just like he torpedoed our marriage.

      As much as cheaters refuse to acknowledge it, their actions have consequences far beyond the effect on their spouses. I hope your daughter gets the help she needs to understand she deserves better. Some of my grown kids still suffer because of what they had to go through as teens and young adults (I had to call one daughter at college to break the news to her minutes before it exploded all over social media). But then, other people’s feelings just don’t matter to these pseudo-humans, so I am sure your X accepts zero responsibility for how his cheating hurt your daughter. She is lucky to have you to help understand that none of this is her fault!

      • Yes, this.

        Nowdeadcheaters meltdown was the worst in 2005…in one of his moments of monstering, NDC tried to secure a HUGE chunk of cake by trying to get his family to move to where he and the OW fucked. For that to work, we would have had to trust in his goodness enough to be willing to give up our home, school, friends, job to leave everything and trust we were a rainbow farting unicorn chasing the fairy dust of remaining an intact family (even though it was him alone who decided to move to Calif).

        Our oldest child was at the end of HS and looking at his Senior year. NDCs cake eating would make son leave HS and do hi Senior year somewhere that he knew no one. I brought that up to the King of Cake and his answer was for us to leave him behind…We move to CA and son lives with whoever is willing to allow him to move in.

        Fuck, fuckity, fuck, fuck I know of cases where parents HAVE to do stuff like this, but CHOOSING it (with me years later realizing it was so that Cheater could have cake!?) leave our child behind so he could fuck OW. In addition, middle kid had depression issues and counselor told me to not move him under any circumstances whereupon Cheater PROMISED him he wouldnt have to move. CHeater then moved and made us not living as a family the kids problem.

        I told Cheater “you can betray your children if you wish, but I wont be a party to it” and I refused to move.

        It was much later that I realized it was all a play for cake. It makes me seriously sick to think he did that to our kids.

        • unicornnomore
          they will do anything to screw that nasty ho of theirs ! They will do everything in their power to destroy whatever they have to make sure that they have that nasty cake that is their drug. I listened to the HG Tudor on youtube He is a narcissist, it’s a real eye opener what they do to keep cake and secure supply. It’s helped me realize what I was in the midst of my now dead cheater

        • You stayed, as love for your blood dictated. Huge fucking hugs to you, AND the Award of baddest and biggest Baller. EVER! You got that and this! You showed your babies what loyalty really looks like. You’re doing an AWESOME job 💋💋❤️

    • Luz, you’re obviously the only parent here. I’m sure it’s clear to medical staff and casual observers, whether it’s the psych ward or the cardiology unit. Most of all, it’s clear to your daughter, that you love her and you have her back and YOU take her seriously. He can fuck right off.

    • I’m sorry for your daughter’s depression. I’m glad she has you for a mother.
      You are right that teenagers are susceptible, but they can put these episodes behind them. My son had a suicidal episode while in college; eight years later, he’s fine. Your daughter, too, can come through this and go on to live a satisfying life.

    • I certainly don’t know the whole situation but I don’t think you should let him take her to the cardiologist by himself. I would not trust that. You either cut that off or you also go with them everytime. You don’t know what he is saying or what is going on. Regarding any of her medical care you be there every time.

    • I’m so sorry about your beautiful daughter and her pain. I can relate to your worry. May this be short and managed, and may she get what she needs during her stay so she has the tools to comfortable and confidently navigate this sometimes really shitty world. And I hope you are doing well. I unfortunately know that sick sick hopeless stomach feeling and I’m thinking about you both.

      • Luz, sending you hugs. I can relate to your situation with your daughter. I too know that awful sick feeling when our children suffer like that. I send you both warm heartfelt wishes,
        strength and peace.

    • I can so relate Luz. My oldest has mental health problems and spent a month in drug rehab. The Worm never puts two and two together and acknowledges that his erratic behavior and verbal abuse contributed. He thinks that because he pays for things and does the visible parenting like coaching baseball which our son never wanted to participate in, that it absolves him of his behavior. Forget that he was never involved otherwise.
      When I left last year and closed our bank account, he sent me an email saying I did that to embarrass him. I shot one back asking if he was embarrassed about the multiple infidelities, the verbal and mental abuse and for beating the crap out of me several times. He emailed me back saying it was a “vile and disgusting” email and he was “sorry he read it”.
      I’m mortified that I spent 26 years with that little Worm…..

    • HI Luz,
      Sending Jedi hugs your way. You are clearly an amazing mother. I know firsthand how tough it is when your child is hurting so much that they attempt suicide.
      My ex did not come after DDs suicide attempt. He asked if he should– I said I did not know since DD said she did not want to see him. So he selfishly did not come. It meant he would miss a mandatory training session for new job, and he would have to wait another year to complete the training. I was out of town during the attempt and rushed home in time to get her admitted from the medical hospital to the psych hospital (10 hour drive, though I drove to an airport 2 hours away and flew home). Ex was 2000 miles away, but in a destination with many non stop flights.
      Post attempt I read through her phone– she had texted the suicide attempt notification to him (which I knew) and told him: now you will listen bastard (which I did not know).

      As CL said– where is the shame?

      It has been 3.5 years. She still struggles with anxiety and focusing (teenager!) but graduates from high school in two weeks and is off to college in the autumn!

      • .My heart goes out to all of you with kids that are suffering so. When we found out our daughter was cutting stbx could only get mad. It’s to hard to see our children hurting. They have no shame or conscience. I’ve never seen him have compassion or empathy towards anyone over anything. My prayers go out to everyone here.

    • She’s very lucky to have you as a mother. From someone who didn’t get the attention or help he needed as a depressed teenager, thank you for being there for her. I’m incredibly grateful that the zeitgeist around depression and mental health has improved so much in the last 20-30 years. There’s still a long way to go, but it’s definitely heading in the right direction (in part due to parents like you!).

    • I’m so sorry about your daughter, Luz!!!
      I hope she continues to heal and recover. I’m so glad you are there for her to be a good example of recovering strong.

      My DD fell at school earlier this week and ended up injured. After taking her to the doc (no break, no fractures) I reluctantly texted her dad The Evil One to let him know. His response? “K. How is she otherwise?”
      Two days let he followed up a text asking how she was doing.

    • One of mine had 3 hospitalizations the first year after dday for suicidal ideations. I understand what you are going through.

      Like you, when my kid needed to be hospitalized I was the one to take her, do intake, etc. I was the one that bought her underwireless bras, cozy socks and cozy lounge wear for the stays. I was the one that bought her books to bring with her. I called her. I visited.

      Fucktard? visited and brought his OW’s used books (the topography of Mars) and an adult coloring book but no pencils. He also offered to let her move in with him and CFMD so that she could have her very own personal Psychiatrist 24/7.

      Except CFMD is not a psychiatrist, she did not finish her residency many years ago and she has her own myriad of mental illnesses that caused her to lose her own kid.

      So yeah – I got your back Luz!

    • Cardiology appointments indeed. The things these jerks will do to look good in the picture. Impression management is an integral component of ego kibble-seeking.

      Luz, I hope your daughter is doing well. I know what you are going through, I’ve been through this with a teenage son as well. And, characteristically, Baron Sparkledick von Glitterballs did NOT leave his work and come running home, but spent a week out of the country while I dealt with everything alone and then this “cold slab of meat” came home and kept criticizing me for letting son be hospitalized. He kept boasting “It wouldn’t have happened if I were around”.

      Hugs to you and your daughter.

    • Oh Luz, I am so sorry for you and your daughter. Thoughts and prayers are with you. I started going to local NAMI meetings. The people there are great and offer needed support.

    • My spouse has spent time in psych wards. Trust me, the staff KNOWS who shows up for ego-strokes, who shows up to be supportive (and that includes boundaries, consequences & adulting [directed at in-laws & spouse]) and who is being a good parent, spouse, person.

      I’m so glad she is where she needs to be, is getting the care, evaluations & referrals. I hope someone is looking out for you too. This is tough stuff and you need a support team too.

      You are a mighty chump!

    • Luz, so sorry for these challenges. My dd3 was in the same situation two years ago and is doing much better today. Sending love and healing thoughts.

    • I’m sorry your daughter is struggling, and that you have to deal with a fuckwit while trying to care for her.

    • When I told my XH that my daughter ( then 14)was having panic attacks, triggered in particular by the fights he had with OWs 1,2 and 3 in front of her ( some by phone, some in person), his reply was ” you always said it was important to express my feelings so I’m going to say that I feel very attacked right now.” And that was it. He has shown zero interest in her psychologist’s appointments,(which have been going on for 2 years), but now that she has been booked to see a psychiatrist, he had a talk with her during which he explained that all that depression came from my side of the family. Yep, it’s my crummy genes that are the problem, not his multiple affairs and drama with the Trio of Witches.Shame on me and my bad DNA.

    • 15 years ago I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder after my third tour in the hospital after trying to commit suicide.

      My mother visited me, my father never did.

      I’ll never forget that.

      Oh, and how he taunted me when I was suicidal telling me to just go do it and quit bugging my mother about it. How I was “just like his mother and sister-in-law” whom he hates.

      But hey, what could I expect from the guy who regularly threatened to kill me when I was a kid and that “no one would ever find out.”

    • Oh Luz, that egg sucking dog!
      I get what you have written.
      However, you are a true ROCK..
      Love you and everthing you share..
      Im with you on this..Amazing what a caring mom/ dad, present can accomplish and will.
      Let her know, plenty people care! CN sure does.
      Stay YOU!

    • Luz,
      Sorry to hear about your daughter’s suffering. I wish her love, levity, and serenity.

      • Thank you everyone, especially to those of you who shared your stories about your children.

        She is home now and safe. It’s not all hearts and roses. We had a row yesterday about going out to lunch and whether her outfit was appropriate for her age. Without the added stress, that could be any mom and kid though.

        I was telling another CL friend on PM, sometimes I feel like my insides have been scraped clean by a melon baller and just when I start to feel something I get excoriated again. And it’s hilarious to be told that the few times a year I show strong emotion and fight the situation, that is also used against me so a fuckwit can pretend I’m crazy.

        Since my daughter was a baby, I’ve stoically endured 13 years of ever more ridiculous and irresponsible behavior from a so called adult. I made this choice, so I’ve dealt with it responsibily. I’ve allowed someone who was convicted of physically abusing me to remain in my daughter’s life. In order to collect the thousands in child support he owes me I allowed his conviction to be expunged so he could get a job. I’ve risked and then withdrawn as necessary visitation when his living situation was more and less stable.

        All the while advanced at the same job. Paid off dozens of thousands in debt he incurred. Took on 100% of medical expenses. Stayed put in the same home. Saved and scrimped for music lessons, travel, nice wardrobe and salon care for his daughter.

        You could count on one hand the times I’ve used harsh words toward him. There’s enough rage material there to burn down epochs, but I’ve been 8% go fuck yourself, and 92% why bother.

        Meanwhile, he’s acquired another child he can’t afford, damaged a street full of cars with a DUI, feuded and fought with his drunkard baby mama and ended at 41 back on the couch at Big Mama’s Failure to Launch Acres.

        I don’t take life advice from someone whose life is a mess. Bottom Line. And I will not allow my daughter to go back into that environment of sickness, gaslighting and denial without a safety plan.

  • hahaha, His shame left with the demonic spirit that acording to him, he was delivered of 4 months after D’day.

    4 1/2 years on and I am still being shamed every time I need to interact with cheater for all the shitty things I did during our marriage that cheater uses as an excuse to be a massive, not so passive agressive turd.

    • You’re so right about how they skip their shame based on true facts to move the spotlight on the fabricated story of shame originated from their delusional mind.

  • My therapist put it this way:
    – The thing is, when a person does something shameless, the shame ends up on someone else.

    So, yeah, I’ve go it.

    • This is true, they put them shame on us! I was told I was every shameful thing he could possibly invent. They don’t have any issues heaping that baggage on us to carry around for them.

      • blame shifting is also shame shifting. X had his shame tied up in his resentments for all the slights and things that were not done for him.

  • Their shame is stuck so far up their narcissistic asses that it will never see the light of day.

    Shame and guilt/conscience go together. When there is a chance that some shame might leak out of his ass, he just vomits out some blame to soothe his shame stomach ache grumbles.

    Blame lies and denial… the Pepto-Bismol of NPDs.

    • No joke. Anytime my ex feels slighted in ANY way, whether it is real or perceived, it is WWIII.

      Just the other day I had to deal with him blaming me over in his words “ highly inappropriate” messages that were sent to him and the OW. He is desperate to find out who sent them and of course blamed me. Let’s pay attention to what he thinks I do, but not his own “highly inappropriate” behavior of leaving a wife with cancer and immediately impregnating the first woman who shows interest in him. He then finds it disturbing that people would gossip about his actions. The gossip is disturbing, not the actions?! 🙄 WTF?

      • Yep the trusty tactic of getting you on the defensive to distract from their nuclear bombs and to make you think you’re just as bad as him.
        I just started saying think what you want. They enjoy the drama/attention from us defending ourselves. Makes them feel important because we care enough to spend time proving we didn’t do that thing to hurt them.
        Dickface has been on a year long campaign to prove I am a liar…. just like him…. so he feels better about his black soul. I finally just said do you even know the definition of the word liar. People that don’t do what you tell them to do are not liars. That’s not what liar means. Nice try shitforbrains.

      • Recently found out my husband of 17 years has been having an affair with his howorker. He invited me to NYC with him when he was on business where we had lunch with another coworker. The latter coworker happened to mention that my husband had been to the Christmas Show with his howorker and her family the previous day!! Basically found out two weeks before Christmas that he has someone on the side and another family. I was devastated. Kinda reminds me of the movie Hope Floats with Sandra Bollock…had to go buy it again. I had a few ugly months but I am starting to get to the other side!!

        • Sadie
          similar thing happened to me , my husband of almost 18 years was screwing his howorker and I found out about her when the big bold ho walked into hospice! I found out so much after that and to this day I am in the throes of the aftermath…because he was a narcissist it’s like he’s still alive because one of his sibling is still in image management and control of me. Since his death she has been spinning her underhandedness and its coming out in so many different ways, basically in order to keep his image polished and that shit show of the whore hidden and secreted away, she is making sure she blackballs me. She is in full image management so that nobody to this day will ever believe anything about him. SO just in case I may say something to someone, it won’t be believed because she’s behind the scenes blackballing me in order to keep his pristine fake phoney scam con man image intact. He’s made to look like a great guy. How do I know this, well because having to deal with many different people due to his death, I am finding out the seethingly sinister shit that has been happening to make sure that nothing will permeate his image. And I am not even broadcasting it or saying anything. But it’s been her duty to continue the façade for him. SHe’s only one person that is part of his coachery and she’s just one of his flying monkeys. There are more.
          It is devastating ! This is ALL because of a BIG whore. This whore has seemingly been still inadvertently ruining my life further. SHe must have been some powerful whore ! Meanwhile I think part of it is because there is even more to the story that I don’t know like that grown son of hers, whose his father? It could quite conceivably be his, the timeline works. All my months to the tune of 16 or so months has been ugly. That does not include the time the sham was being played out before my eyes/but behind my back while he was dying. SO much more. It could even be that he was ‘married’ to her. Even though he was married to me. I know that’s illegal but I would not even put it past due to all I know at this time. It seems like a lifetime movie, only I call it the greatest scam or con that has ever been perpetrated. I mean its just F unreal !

  • There’s no shame to be had when it’s the chumps fault. Remember we’re the ones who drove them to cheat because they were unhappy for so many years. They? Well… they’re just poor sacrificial lambs. Cheater ex- “Didn’t you see the pain in my eyes when you took your love away from me?” Yes indeed, he was in so much pain he just had to fuck someone else and lead a double life for over 500+ days just to “stick it” to me… shame indeed.

    • Wow… I received a text a few minutes ago stating that I would be a much happier person if I would stop blaming him for everything and look in the mirror. Blame-shifting!!! It is my fault he carried on over a year long affair.

  • Yeah, fuckwit was dancing with me to the song, “Can I Have This Dance For the Rest of My Life, and his ho was out in the hallway recreating, “Save the Last dance for me.” Dedicated to MY husband!

  • Shame not for my stbx. It was like shame on me I only went away more with him. Shame on me I did not give him enough attention. Shame on me I wanted him to cheat. My stbx has no shame. The only shame he might have shown was that his credit score was low. But, shame on me because I had to use credit cards to pay taxes etc. That is all he kept talking about is his dam credit score. But, no shame screwing around with my cousin and lying about me. All that matters is that credit score.

  • I doubt my ex had any to begin with!!! His philosophy was “I can only succeed if all others are defeated, humiliated and strewn across the battlefield of work, sport, relationships etc. He even competes against his own children, sulking if any of them have the audacity to be better than him at any pursuit.

    • I imagine he wasn’t the most gracious of winner either.
      (and had to rub everyone’s noses in it – yay ! I’m the greatest)

  • There is no shame because, in their view, they have nothing to be ashamed of; they were entitled to cheat. My STBX had been “unhappy for a long time” but he nevertheless “soldiered on” in our marriage for the sake of our kids. Poor, poor STBX. By “soldiering on,” he means that he lived in my house and pretended to be my husband while he had affairs with other women. Where is his shame? It is nonexistent. The only way that I have been able to wrap my mind around the depth and extent of his despicable-ness and treachery is to continually remind myself that he is disordered. Anyone with a conscience could not behave as he did. And he feels no shame fir any of it. Why should he? After all, it is my fault that he cheated.

    • This. I could gave written this. He was unhappy for 10 yrs and he withdrew his attention from me and did prostitutes, massage parlors with happy endings, bisexual ads on Craigslist, strange woman in the middle of the day at their houses, orgies, casual meet-ups, etc. “as punishment ” he said for not admiring him any more!

      No fucking shame.

      I listen to Dr. Simon’s podcasts all day long. That’s what’s getting me out of the big black hole. The day was December 19 and everything is still so raw. But Dr. Simon says they are disordered and that, my friends, is what is keeping me sane.

      • OMG, we were married to the same man. I feel you. My DDay was 11/17. When all his illicit sexcapades weren’t enough he went and found a Schmoopie. She knows “everything” and is helping him to be a “better man.” She also “encouraged him to reconcile” with me, for which he’s “so thankful.”

        Hjghxsrthv

        F6:dhdjklgjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjkkk

        Sorry, I passed out on the keyboard from laughing. Knowing he is disordered and unfixable brings me some small comfort.

          • Amazing – we were ALL married to same guy – he had a wife in Australia too ! When you thought he was sleeping, he was on long haul flights!! When DID he find the time???!!!

            Ten years he forced himself to go to hookers in his lunch break and gay saunas for orgies when he had a spare few hours … obviously because I wasn’t there for him, AND he was ” keeping the family together”. After our daughter died. So noble.

  • Shame? What do I have to be ashamed of, because you…
    ______________ (insert projection here)

  • You can’t feel shame if you are a perfect person.

    I suspect my ex never felt any shame, so it had nowhere to disappear to. He was raised by a narcissistic mother to believe he deserved the best of everything, and that only his needs mattered.

    It was all wrapped up in a charming package, but it took a long time for me to see how hollow that package really was.

    Shame? What shame? “I deserve to have ‘the most beautiful woman in the world'” he said to me.

    • Good god. My cheater was taught that he only deserved a woman who worshipped his mother like an idol, which of course made said woman the greatest accessory in the world. I failed miserably at that test I didn’t know I was taking. My confusing role as booby prize fucked me up for 30 years. How was I not good enough for a tribe of mouth breathing uneducated losers when I adored my husband? Alas, I was not.

      • My Mother in Law has been The Booby Prize for 57 years. This is what Nowdeadcheater learned from his dad and I was Booby Prize 2.0

        • I think my ex monster in law and yours may be the same person.

          Mine was an extreme control freak. Controls every part of the husbands and kids lives to where they work, where they live, what kind of car they drive. She hated me because I worked outside the family business in a very good career, had 2 masters degrees and did not have to put up with her crap in order to receive a paycheck.

          The OW now wife was an employee who she hired, who did those things I didn’t.

          She has no shame, therefore her son does not. It was never taught, everything is someone’s else’s fault.

    • Skein untangling warning: I had thought that the cause of my nowdeadcheaters “shamlessness” would be a secret he took to his grave, but after he died, his sister wrote (and published publicly) a (terrible freeform) poem about her and her brother that has really creepy incestuous undertones (or are they “overtones”?).

      I wonder if the real issue was massive, deep, profound, shame to which he responded by overtly having none.

      • I used to think this, UNM, but the research shows they really do, deep down, think they’re great.

        Perhaps the childhood creepiness occurred because even then he (and perhaps his sister too) was deeply disordered.

        • Yea, that is why we shouldnt try to untangle that skein…did they think they were fabulous or were they so ashamed that they created a facade of fabulousness to hide? In reality they really sucked, and no one had any influence over them, so it doesn’t really matter. Either way, it was his / his sisters job to take whatever they had and be decent humans.

      • UNICORNOMORE,
        THIS!!! Sounds very familiar, here. Ugh! You might just be on to something there.
        Just – ugh!
        Boss Hogg tried to tell me that Daisy Duke was “like a sister” to him. Yes – she of the vibrator self-betterment. He bought her perfume to start with. Then bras & thongs and cutoffs (hence, “Daisy”) with the Jackrabbit jackpot Christmas present (not even counting the thousands of dollars worth of crappy “house painting” she did for his company, including blank checks).
        I told him if that was what he thought family was supposed to be he didn’t need to be anywhere near our 15 yo DD, that he wasn’t safe with values like those. He told me I needed to “teach him” what was right. I countered that if he doesn’t know by 64, there was NOTHING I could do to help him now.
        Trust. That. They. Suck.
        And always way worse than we will EVER know.
        Years ago,. his younger sister told the family that her father molested her. But I suspect there was more… It turns my stomach. But in a way it explains f*ed up from the start with no hope for healthy change. I wonder if I should ask, but I really don’t want the answer. I have kept my kids as far away as I can and have always been present when the family gathered.
        I have my own childhood sexual abuse issues.I guess it’s no surprise I drew that sick to me before I started my healing journey. SHould have booted it long ago.
        Thank God, Tracy and each of you fine chumpy warriors – I do NOT have to live in that sewage another second!
        Take YOUR shame & wear it, Hogg. It’s NOT mine!

  • It is in the bottom of the martini glass of the Martini we shared at the Navy recruiting awards ceremony when he left me to party in another hotel room with Schmoop! I had to find my way to our room alone. Fuckwit came in at 5 am. Wanted to cuddle. Loved the olive though! Got up in the AM and wrote a six page final essay for an English class at University…about Alchemy…got a B. Might have been an A if fuckhead wasn’t screwing me over.

  • “Life is too short to wake up in the morning with regrets. So love the people who treat you right, and forget about the ones who don’t and believe that everything happens for a reason. If you get a chance; take it. If it changes your life; let it. Nobody said that it would be easy, they just promised that it would be worth it.”

    I found this on an old desktop computer vSTBXWW used no doubt to cheat. She was a master of covering her tracks. I saved it as “Her Philosophy”. It’s the only explanation I can associate with her having no guilt or shame.

    I think her “shame” is like that little tickle you get in your throat before a coughing spell ensues. It lasts for a moment then POOF! Superseded by, “What do I want next”?

    So rather than search for the empirical answer to ‘Where is your shame” , NOW I substitute, “Their brains are not wired like ours”. That makes us incompatible. And that is reason enough.

    Next Question… How did I overlook (spackle) this incompatibility?

    • Her philosophy sounds right along with exh1’s: do what you want to make yourself happy, the hell with what others think or feel…” And, “…I’m not responsible for how you feel…”
      They really are all the same.

    • Marcus,
      Wonderfully expressed–great final question! I am trying to figure why I unnecessarily tolerated much abuse and mistreatment for decades. Probably too late in my life to really positively change the course of my life, but maybe I can educate and train others on ways to protect themselves.

    • Hey, Marcus, did you ever think that in some weird way, that philosophy on her screen was intended for YOU to see: “love the people who treat you right, and forget about the ones that don’t”. That’s correct—YOU are the one being mistreated, who should forget about HER. And who should leave her, with NO regrets. Your life is too short to waste on her.

  • KK’s shame took the form of the blank stare I got for 5 hours after I caught her trying to bring the Carrot Singer into our home.

    It made only the briefest of appearances before being blanketed by the first protestation about how unhappy she’d been for so long. That blanket must have been really comfortable, because it was supplemented shortly thereafter by the quilt of “One mistake does not a person make.”

    Since then the pile has grown higher — every tattoo, every piercing, every selfie, female empowerment quote, social media posting, story told publically about RPD and the madcap, sexcapade-filled life they lead, and insult/demand/lecture sent to me on Our Family Wizard, provides another layer of comfort against facing the reality of what she is.

    The speck of shame that made so brief an appearance in Jan 2016 has died the slow death of suffocation, if it ever existed at all.

    • I know Im slow, but I still havent processed KK’s flappy arm issue from yesterday.

      Call me crazy, but when I was getting ready to marry in 2015, I wanted firm guns, so I got weights and did arm exercises while I powerwalked. My 53 year old arms dont look as good as Cheater Mika Brzezinski (with her always sleeveless outfits) but pretty darn good.

      Telling someone they had to pay for my arms to be improved simply never occurred to me.

  • Her shame is in the (in poor repair) trailer her parents bought her yesterday because she can’t afford anything else big enough to have our kids every other week while she’s under employed and, thus, under paid while she works retail with her Masters degree. At least she offered me the chance to live there if we ended up working things out. God, is it Tuesday yet?

    • /At least she offered me the chance to live there if we ended up working things out/

      OMG, 😂🤣😂🤣😃🤣😂 have you started packing your bags then?!?! I can’t even…
      “Queen of My Double-Wide Trailer” by Sammy Kershaw comes to mind….
      She’s working retail with a Master’s?!?! Why isn’t she working in her field?

  • I assume you are asking a rhetorical question when you ask “Where is Cheater’s and OW’s shame?” The legal objection is “assumes facts not in evidence.” In other words, you are assuming they have a sense of obligation to others of “the other” as opposed to just “themselves.” LOL. Cheater told me OW does feel what they did was “wrong” but that she is a very happy person and she told him if he left her, she would be devastated. Now to both of them in their selfish fucked-uped-ness, this means that “their” devastation is important but that my daughter’s devastation or mine or the employees of the company they messed or Cheater’s partners whose money they used to fund their affair DO NOT MATTER. Shame requires an understanding of others and I think that Cheaters just don’t have that in them. To care even a little bit about my daughter’s life would take attention away from themselves and we all know that the spotlight must remain on them. This loops back to yesterday’s topic–karma has already hit them. Can any of you who are out there actually dealing with the shit storm of destruction to lives, kids, finances, self esteem and so on that these Cheaters left behind imagine just not caring about other people? I told Cheater the other day as he was leaving for his 7th vacation since January with OW that I resented that he was at the beach as I was scrubbing grout to prepare our family home for sale. Seriously, the look on his face said it all. He had absolutely never considered the fairness doctrine in all of this. This is how he escapes the shame. If you never think of anyone but yourself, you are blissfully unaware of the destruction you have caused. So OW is very happy on the beach. This is Karma. These people suck. If your religious beliefs include some kind of afterlife judgment, they are going to be in the wrong line. If you just believe that “nice” people figure out who the jerks are in life and stay far away from them, then trust that Cheater and OW are doomed to a life lived with people just as suck-y as they are. Either way, no shame but also lots of bad karma

  • I think it’s in the clitoral pimento of the green olive speared against the rim of our martini glass!

  • It has taken a long time for me to truly grasp that Dr. Cheaterpants is disordered. And trust that he sucks 100%. He has had a victim mentality from the moment I met him and I lifted him up. He was always complaining about how so and so didn’t listen to him, value his input, didn’t engage him for the wonderfulness that floated in his brain. And yes, he is smart. He is book smart. I didn’t realize when he would ask me to ‘do that thing you do, where you look at things from other peoples viewpoints’ that since he didn’t have empathy he could not do this. He needed me to boost him into being human.

    Everything in his life is idealize, devalue, discard. I knew everything and everyone around him had a shelf life. I knew something wasn’t right. For 20 years of my life, I didn’t recognize him as a narcissist and the pattern they all follow. I didn’t realize I was the maker of his misery. I never got to hear that from him. I only got to read it when our iClouds were joined and he was texting/emailing young schmoopie about how hard his poor wittle life was. And he had everything anyone could want.

    There’s no shame for him. No, I got to hold it for a long time. Embarrased and humiliated as he ran around with DD14’s 20-something asst sports coach in our kids’ Catholic high school while he was volunteer coaching. He’s still with his young ho 2 years later. And forcing our kids to accept her as a twu wuv. Bringing to our kids school for events. I’ll get to see her for graduation this weekend.

    He has no shame because it wasn’t his fault in his mind. And I think he truly believes it. Nothing to work with there, ever. His perception is his reality. And he will live his life accordingly. Now that I know this is who he is and who he will always be, I know what I need to do. I left a cheater (he wanted cake), and I am working on gaining a life.

    • Girl, you nailed it!!!!!
      This times infinity is how I feel about exh2/The Evil One.
      He has zero remorse nor shame about everything and anything he’s done. He justifies all of his actions and words.

  • They only feel ashamed of being alone. Whatever the problems in the marriage were or are, they do not exist to the cheater unless they have a Schmoopie as an option. Then, your messy closet or a broken yolk on a fried egg is a deal breaker. However, if Schmoopie takes off, “mistakes were made,” and you will have to change the locks and get a restraining order to get rid of them. They train all their enablers to think that being cheated on and left without an instant new partner is what is shameful. Not lying, cheating, stealing, having your things sold on Storage Wars because you did not pay the bill, IRS liens, being fearful of entering your own country….

  • If she did at all , mine had ‘after shame’ or ‘I don’t have filters and I don’t thonk outside the next two minutes so what is s consequence ‘ -ism
    For the first few months she actually told a number of people the truth. That she ‘fell out of love ‘ and used the first guy who seemingly came along to fuck and end our chances of her possibky wanting to come back if she just straight up left on her own. Then told everyone within a week from what i can tell how excited she was to get out there dating and get ‘free meals and drinks ‘ usually I guess thinking that was hilarious.
    And honestly I think she thought most people would just not care or think anything of this? Apparently she would just say all this without prompting. To other marroed people and whoever would listen.
    She also continued to talk/sleep with the asshole after I told her twice if she did I wouldn’t be civil with her even for our kids. She liked the attention she said.
    know a number of her friends and family just brushed it off( I believe you had a article about how its not their problem therefore dont expect them all to take your side? ) but once i found out and stopped and confronted her about it all letting her know I was done with her and I think she might have had I would guess someone put her in her place that stopped. From there on in if my career came up in convo its ‘oh I used to date a tattooer ” and that was it
    Guess the not looking at me in the eye and visibly uncomfortable around me even two years out shows she might have found a bit of shame but i doubt much

    • She’s uncomfortable because you no longer look at her with any version of ‘liking’ in your eyes. They hate dealing w/people who seem them for who they are.

  • Where is his shame? Hmmm…

    Maybe it’s hiding behind his porn glazed eyes? Nope, not there!

    Maybe it’s a subliminal message hidden in his “my life is fabulous” Facebook posts. Nope not there!

    Maybe it’s tucked in the millions of dollars of martial money he’s spent on sex workers, girlfriends and literally the food taken from our children’s mouths! Nope, not there

    Maybe it’s hidden in the fictional story he is painting to the court. The mountain of lies that I’m a money grubbing, lazy, crazy spouse; driving him to be a workaholic and sexaholic, because of the “lavish lifestyle” I insisted he provide! Nope, not there!

    Maybe it’s hidden beneath the impression management he’s so adept at manufacturing. The one where he’s a super friendly, nice guy. Nope not there!

    Maybe it’s in the rages and outburst twirl myself and the children when we didn’t make his life the way he wanted it to be. The worshiping of a God, and of course “greeting him at the door like the dog” (yes, that literally came out of his mouth). Nope, no shame there!

    I bought into the sex addiction/ shame narrative for a VERY long time. For anyone who isn’t familiar with that, basically it’s the same as the RIC… they aren’t responsible for their behavior because… shame! Just another tool to allow disordered fucks to use empathy and Conscience as a weapon to gain the upper hand and disadvantage the person who truly has one.

  • My ex lives about a mile away in his mother’s house that he doesn’t pay for (she’s in a nursing home after suffering a stroke during our divorce). My ex has no shame as that was supposed to be my cross to bear. My ex does have multiple fast cars, boats, trips, and fast women in addition to schmoopie poo. But shame? None of that. I live shame free in the marital home which has been made over to suit my taste. I’m lucky in that what I did have instead of shame was white hot anger that propelled me to file a week after obtaining my final piece of damning evidence. Anger that propelled me to jump out of the frying pan of dysfunction. I’m in a good place. Sipping coffee getting ready to take my son to school and wake my daughter up for her last exam of her senior year. I’ll go to work and deal with paperwork required when you have to send a client to the hospital after a suicide attempt. It’s been a heavy week with clients but I’m at peace with my role in the world. No shame, my fuckwit will never wear the mantle of shame and I have chosen to discard any and all shame.

  • Why on earth would my XH feel any shame for the baker’s dozen + 1 of affairs he had during our 40-year relationship? His FEELINGS always trumped his loose commitment to me (a.k.a. marriage vows).

    Apparently, whenever a new and eager supply came on the scene, it’s the “silly butterflies” in his stomach that drove him to stray, and then c’mon, he had no choice but to use his dick as a divining rod to drill for fresh pussy.

    Nope, I was the one who was supposed to bear whatever shame was due. And classic chump that I was – loyal, faithful, committed, loving – I bought into that storyline hook, line and sinker… until I felt so badly about myself, it was just easier to disappear into that deep dark hole than to fight back.

    But guess what?

    No more cheating spouse = No shame! Miraculous!

  • He left his shame with the vibrating cock ring in the third row of her Honda Pilot. You know, because how can you have any shame if you screw mostly in public parking lots? When you’re in your late 40s? For over 2.5 years?

    No shame. No regret (except for getting caught). Because: no conscience.

    • Yup, think my is doing parking lots and wooded areas, a la Craigslist sale…or so Find Friends leads me to believe. At 61…

      No shame, no remorse, no guilt, no contrition but regret ’cause he got caught.

  • I’d say his shame Ian somewhere before her G-spot and that his dick will always be just a bit too short to reach all the way there….

  • Some readings of late:

    The personality disordered are unable to be trusted to behave pro-socially toward others.

    Narcy people flock together in predatory packs

    The serial cheater’s spouse will be profiled as emotionally unstable, hostile, irrational and mean spirited.

    Chumps are held captive by the belief that staying involved with a family member who abuses is the morally correct and socially appropriate thing to do.

    They cry on people’s shoulders while they flat out make up stories to isolate you and pervasively strive to financially, emotionally and psychologically destroy you.

    Cheaters are vertical thinkers. Them at the top while leaving everyone else’s human rights in the dirt.

    Cheaters target those with the empathy gene.

    You wanted a picket fence, instead you got a predator. Fooling their nearest and dearest thrills and excites them. New prey and adulation is what they live for. They morally lack the capacity for guilt.

    Cheaters are driven by a deviant neuro-chemical biology

    It crushes them the most to know they no longer matter to you

    Cluster B people derive pleasure from a different (aberrant) set of core values

    They have no metaphysical qualities. Charming on demand, good at impression management, but selfish, duplicitous, dishonest and egocentric at heart

    • Love these! Source? I want to dig deeper into some of this stuff, especially the narcissism aspect.

    • These are absolutely true. Mine once told me flat out that he was duplicitous. On some level I thought bad people would be like Darth Vader and have strong visual cues to their nature and openly stated evil intentions. I learned that hard way that evil people come to “help”, they sleep next to you in bed and father/mother your children, they say the right things to get what they desire. They can be spotted but ONLY by those whose eyes have been opened.

  • As far as I know, no shame at all. He was so self-entitled shame just isn’t part of his vocabulary AT ALL. Like I’ve mentioned before tho, now he’s dead broke in Central America, with a janky heart either caused by A) drug use from his past or B) a nasty infection he contracted in El Salvador about 4 years ago. Karma has done it’s job.

  • Mine pretended shame after he was caught ( he continued to cheat for almost a year) with our friend. I still reconciled.. smdh. He only stayed to use me for money and steal our retirement savings and stop working before he finally left for another AP. He never stopped lying and the abuse escalated. Absolutely no shame.

  • Hmmmm……..I would have to say Satan’s shame was left in that large wet spot on the bed sheets left in OW and her now ex-husband’s bed. Yeah, he worked 24 hour shifts and yeah, I tipped him off to catch them. My ex-wife’s response via text to this OW’s then husband after high tailing it outta there was (and I have it in text message still) “Thanks for the use of the bed. I will try to refrain from using it in the future. If you think those sheets are bad this morning, you should have walked in last night.” I mean, who the hell says that to a man that you have been screwing his wife all night in HIS bed in HIS house?!?! Thank you Jesus for meh! It feels pretty damn good!!

  • Her shame was rolled up in the sweaty race bib from the 5k she ran with one of the AP’s…on the morning of our anniversary. Nothing says “I’ll love you, honor you, and be faithful to you forever” like spending it with someone else.

  • I kept reading RIC articles about “toxic shame” and how this was the motivation for cheaters to “act out” by having an affair. Strangely enough – despite it being such a powerful impetus that it could spur a cheater on to a whole series of choices and actions required to serve their own needs in an affair – the RIC also claimed this “toxic shame” was such a binding force that it prevented them from being able to make any choices and actions that served their hurt partner’s needs in the aftermath of their affair. So that’s oddly paradoxical.

    Anyway, I kept making excuses for my husband’s refusal to follow the reconciliation plan that I devised from all my Amazon chump research and so generously typed up into multiple formats to have readily available on his phone, email, in print copy, etc. One day he told me “You keep referencing this toxic shame. I don’t have that.” Well I argued with him that of course he did, that he just wasn’t being self-reflective enough, but that given enough time he’d be able to one day see how this was the root cause of his having an affair. He replied that, no, he never felt any shame. He was sorry, but he wasn’t shameful.

    I could not for the life of me understand this. So I asked my psychologist, and she was genuinely surprised that I was not aware he is a SOCIOPATH. She assumed that with my educational background in psychology and child development, coupled with all my research post D-Day, that I’d come to grips with this fact. Nope, it never crossed my mind that MY husband could be sociopathic. So she explained that I’d been projecting my own sense of shame onto him. He didn’t feel any shame because that part of him closed up shop a long time ago as a defense mechanism in childhood. He is a “secondary sociopath”, the type most amenable to treatment, yet nonetheless incapable of ever developing a full range of emotions such as empathy and – you guessed it, shame.

    • I don’t ‘think you can have shame without empathy. In order to have shame you have to be able to understand how your actions cause harm to others.

      In my ex’s case I think he is willfully unempathetic, however. He is a coward who lacks empathy because he doesn’t want to have to face his shame. Others may simply be born impaired.

    • Hopeful, I cringe in shame about the time and dignity I lost with this “toxic shame” bullshit. But it was while I was amazon chumping that I came across Chump Lady and Chump Nation.

    • Shame is what these people avoid at all costs. It is like death to them. It reminds me of the end scene from Dangerous Liaisons. I never really understood why she was went so completely crazy. I understand it a little more now. She lost and was exposed and it triggered all her shame which triggered her blinding rage.

    • Hopeful,
      At university I lectured on–wait for it–abnormal psychology I still remember thinking, ‘I don’t know ANYONE who has a personality disorder,’ even though I was married to and had created children with a sociopathic, borderline, narcissistic criminal. Sometimes it’s hard to realize that the gun is aimed at you when the barrel is in your mouth.

      • Really???? How interesting!!!
        Do you have a power point you could share? Lecture notes/outline???
        Id love to see it.

        • No, sorry. But I can direct you to some good. solid materials and have talked to some experts in the field (e.g., Bill Eddy).

          • RockStar – with your background in abnormal psychology, did you not see any signs of your X’s problems? Scary.

      • Holding my hand up as ex-wife of narcicissistic, sociopathic, borderline criminal. RSW, do you think the reason nobody in your life seemed to be disordered is that when you assume your spouse’s behavior is “normal”, by comparison everyone else seems healthy?

          • ChickyNot,
            I HAVE asked myself this question. I think of my emotional situation a bit like I think of famine. If you’ve been malnourished/undernourished for months/years (malnutrition is the norm for you), then eating dirt (which still leaves you malnourished but fills your stomach) seems ‘satisfying,’ maybe even exciting, in a way, because you have gotten accustomed to extreme deprivation/chronically unhealthy living. As I was married to an extremely psychologically disordered , abusuve person, I think that ANYONE who didn’t severely abuse me day in and day out seemed like a saint–even if he was an abuser, too. I think tha subconsciously I thought, ‘well, at least post-separation boyfriend doesn’t hit me and doesn’t commit crimes against me–and lots of people say he’s a nice guy’–so I got myself someone who mistreated me but not as badly. As time goes on withiut my ex-boyfriend I increasingly grow aware of how bad his treatment of me was–and throwing me a few scraps of human decency doesn’t ‘erase’ the unwarranted, unacceptable behavior.

  • Her shame disappeared once I assumed all of her student loans (before I found out). After that, it was “who cares what he thinks” because now he has all of my debt!

  • In cheaters’ minds – they’ve created a revisionist version of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs where “true love” = self actualization – the absolute pinnacle of human development – thereby trumping anyone and anything else

  • And as a Lion King lover – I must defend Pumba and warthogs everywhere – as having greater integrity and empathy than any of our cheaters 😄

  • Never showed shame or remorse after 34 years
    married. After I bought him half out of home
    & now in debt, he’s with another woman living
    happy & content. ( original OWhore died)

    Evil does walk among us …👿

  • His shame is living on his mom’s couch 2,000 miles away, making daily phone calls to talk to the kids he fucked over about the weather. His shame is trying to get in touch with people he did sex with while married to me, but not realizing they send me his lame ass texts because they didn’t realize I was awesome when he was painting a picture of a monster. His shame is texting me about getting into an argument regarding decorum and internet dating that he had with the woman he met on the internet, cheated on me with and accidentally had a baby with. Oops. Shame? Not so much.

  • Fuckwit told me I was so miserable, he thought he ought to take me out to the back yard and shoot me; to put me out of my misery.

  • Shame, hmmm, that’s a tough one. None whatsoever. Zero, zip, nada, nothing.

    Just grateful she’s gone and never coming back🥂

  • They have shame and guilt, but it’s a hot potato they divest themselves of immediately. Depending on the situation they have different methods, or combinations of methods. There is the drink/drug my shame away, theres the blame the spouse method (most used), blame my family of origin, blame my in-laws, blame the teacher that molested me (supposedly), blame my boss, blame my poverty, blame my affluence, etc. There are important reasons for them to walk out on their family for their jesus cheater “friend” and those important reasons make them blameless. Anytime that feeling creeps back in it’s time to fling that hot potato at the nearest loved one!

    • Nodancing, I’m not a psychologist, but I think you’re absolutely right. I suspect since childhood, my cheater has felt deep shame and guilt simply over who he is. He gets weirdly defensively angry when criticized in any way. His cheating, compulsive seat-of-the-pants entrepreneurship, and risk-taking hobbies are all ways he uses to distract himself from who he is. Deep down inside, he is ashamed of who he is, and rightly so. His instincts for self gratification, secrecy, dishonesty, and his lack of human empathy ARE shameful.

      He is smart enough to look around him and recognize right from wrong, but too flawed to have a moral compass of his own. He wants to give the impression he is an upstanding guy, but he does not have the ethical fortitude to actually walk the walk.

      After our marriage blew up and I found out who he really is (and told everyone I know), he gave up all pretense of being an upstanding guy. He overtly follows his impulses now and doesn’t seem to care about being judged any more. But I know him. I know in his core he’s mad as hell he’s been exposed, and it’s all my fault. Since he won’t or can’t change his behavior, his anger is the only outward sign of the deep, deep shame he feels over who he is.

      As I see it, this is their karma. They hate who they are, but can’t help themselves from being hateful. They KNOW they’re turds and the best they can do is cover themselves in sparkles.

      • ChampChump,
        Your last paragraph–maybe that’s why my boyfriend would say things like, ‘It’s scary being vulnerable, and I am a bad boyfriend,’ a couple weeks before shutting me out of his life forever.

    • That is an excellent point NMD! My ex used several of those targets of blame shifting at one time or another. And 2+ years after the divorce, I have no doubt that he’s still blaming me for making him “increasingly unhappy during the marriage.” My response to that? Meh.

  • Knowing him, my bet is it’s diluted down in his bong water while his smokes away his responsibilities. That or hidden away in a burner phone.

  • His shame peaked out every now and again during brief moments of lucidity during the first few months after DDay but every time that happened he would smother it in a blanket of denial. With her help he finally managed to imprison it in a solid wall of denial where it will never again see the light of day.

  • This question makes no sense. Why would my XW feel shame when she has done nothing wrong?

    Not in the affair and the divorce, certainly, but also for years and years beforehand. A good decade ago I decided that whenever we had an argument I would apologize for whatever portion of it (no matter how minor) was my fault. Once I did so, the argument was over and life resumed. As a consequence, she only ever apologized a half dozen times over ten years. My therapist actually called me out on this, saying that I enabled her bad behavior by allowing her to dodge all personal responsibility. It’s not about me or the marriage either: her behavior extends to our kids and to her work colleagues too. I admit that sometimes I’m a bit jealous: how liberating it must be to never second-guess yourself!

    We moved 1000 miles for her new job; she torpedoed our and AP’s families a few weeks after arriving. Yesterday she came to my door asking whether I’d be willing to move back to our old hometown. No admission of guilt, not even a “mistakes were made” quasi-apology. She even spun it as “I don’t want to go; I’m just proposing this for the wellbeing of you and the kids” and flat-out denied that returning to within driving distance of AP-cum-fiancé has anything to do with it. I know her: this is her equivalent of admitting that she fucked up when she uprooted and then blew up our family. It’s as close to an apology / admission of blame that I will ever get. Shame isn’t even on the table.

  • Last summer my fuckwit declared he had a lot of shame about OW #1 which was nine years prior to his current, brutal discard of me. I took a hit of hopium for about 5 seconds, but then I said, “You mean, you are ashamed that you didn’t just leave us back then?” His answer: “Yes.”

    His shame was last seen in the Patterson-Gimlin film, striding through the forest near a California creek, looking over its hairy back at us. Rumors and hoaxes are all we have to show for it.

  • Baron Sparkledick von Glitterballs complained that I was depreciating him with friends because I told them why we were were divorcing, supported with his latest flatterfuck’s nauseating instagram pictures.

    My friends, that is, because Glitterballs has never had any friends at all. I used to feel sorry about this for him, but now I understand that he does not have the generosity and wherewithal to have any on his own.

    Anyway, my reply was pure Chump Lady: if what you did is not so terrible then it’s not so terrible to tell people.

    Crickets.

  • Shame is overshadowed by entitlement. It never rears its head because entitlement blinds everything.

  • “I make mistakes”. That was the extent of him showing his shame. Funny how he often used present tense.

    • Mine admitted to making mistakes but still blamed those mistakes on me.

      “The problem occurs when I make bad choices and deceptions to escape from the feelings/damage inflicted from your frustrations.”

      • CC yes THIS!

        The one (back handed) apology i got after all shades of sh*t having gone down throughout our 12 year marriage, and me finally calling him out was; “Sorry that my behaviour caused you to behave in a way that made me no longer love you.”

        Er. What??

        What a dick. I SO wish i’d been with it enough to say Great! let me call you a cab! But i think i just stood there in shock opening and closing my mouth like a goldfish.

        I now know i can Thank Myself for dodging that bullet. Eventually.

        CL your writing is awesome and inspirational and so is CN. Thank you XXXX

  • When ex and I did our post DDay#2 sex addiction (no, I don’t believe it’s a real addiction) disclosure with our therapists, one of the questions I asked was “do any of our friends or your coworkers know about the affairs?” His response was “Oh no, I was too ashamed to tell anyone what I was doing.” Okay…not too ashamed to lie, steal, cheat, risk my health, etc., but too ashamed to have anyone KNOW you were doing those things? Yeah, that’s not shame you fucktard, that’s impression management.

  • So… I’m still with Fuckturd until the day of escape and fury. And despite him saying it’s over with the Chief Skank, I quite know otherwise and am fairly certain he knows I know, but we pretend what he’s saying is true and it makes living in this nightmare a little more tolerable if he’s not beating up on me emotionally 24/7 (it’s just 21/7). Meanwhile, our anniversary is coming up. Skank’s wedding anniversary is within a couple of days of ours. Is Fuckturd planning a nice anniversary for us? No. He’s going to meet up with Skank. They will spend their respective anniversaries with each other instead of their own spouses. He wraps up this gift as a “necessary” business trip to her city. NM that the timing is all up to him and NM that the “business” can be done by email. It will take days in Skank’s city with lots of uninterruptible meetings, according to Fuckturd.

    Shame? What is this “shame” you speak of? LMAO

  • Posting a picture of his royal self along side our then 11 daughter on a couples hook up sex site(image management on a sex site?). Scroll down ..dick pick. No shame. If you get angry enough about being confronted about you behavior you don’t have to feel shame. Only one emotion at a time. Is horny an emotion?

  • His shame was swallowed by the howorker as he took a picture of her giving him a blowjob. That was one for the holiday card.

  • His shame is in the crumpled tissues and paper towels he left next to his computer in the wake of porn fests.

    His shame is in billing clients for two hotel rooms when they used one.

    His shame is in spreadsheets and spread sheets.

    His shame is in the DUI record he pretends never happened, and in the tickets (open alcohol, suspended license, no insurance) that he hid from me.

    His shame is in HR and personnel records detailing harassment of young subordinates.

    His shame is in the many broken and wounded families and individuals left in his wake. It is in their drug addictions, their alcohol abuse, their depression, their suicidal ideation so, their lies, and their hidden shame.

    His shame is in the aching hearts of the partners of his assorted APs. They know that something is wrong. They do not know what or why. They are being denied the facts of their own lives.

    His shame is in that replication of abuse and deception.

    His shame is in every card, gift, word, and touch that was a lie.

    His shame is in the smoke that curled up from the fire pit and the sparks that flew up in the darkness as I burned the remnants of so many lies.

    His shame is the gleam of knowledge, the pool of despair, and the flame of contempt in our children’s eyes.

    His shame is in every attempt at boyish charm.

    His shame is inscribed in every antibiotic prescription written to counter infections picked up from assorted hook-ups.

    His shame is examining room light glinting on metal stirrups every time one of his partners has had to submit to STD testing in self-defense.

    His shame is in the his hands: pressed against my swelling belly, gripping mine through contractions, cradling our newborns, and all the while knowing those hands had recently caressed others. His shame is in the gleaming circle of gold–inscribed “Love always, Cashmere”–on his ring finger as he promised marriage to another.

    His shame lurks in every shadowy, unexamined corner of his life. His shame cannot be outrun in fancy fast cars, drowned in expensive wine, strangled by porn, erased as easily as a text message is trashed, or hidden in yet another ceremony, another exchange of vows.

    His life is a race against shame.

    But shame has always already been patiently waiting at the finish line.

    • “His shame is the gleam of knowledge, the pool of despair, and the flame of contempt in our children’s eyes.”

      Yes!! Absolutely THIS!!

    • WOA – Cashmere…that is quite a masterpiece.

      In the stanza about his wedding ring, I remember driving his car while he was on a 6 month military deployment and finding his wedding ring in the ash tray. I took it well (even with a laugh) in the moment because I assumed the absolute best of him – which turned out to be a mistake. The gold band with my sentiment of love inscribed being placed in the trash receptacle of his car was an important (but missed) indicator of his values.

      To him the ring was trash, I was trash, the marriage was trash….yet he continued to use if for what benefitted him giving me no option to make decisions in my life based on the truth. And for that I hope he eventually felt some shame.

    • This is the most accurate posting I have ever seen.
      Thank you and Bravo for putting it down for everyone else.
      The loss of us is the greatest shame.
      So glad he’s in my rear view mirror.
      Xoxoxo

    • Cashmere
      or shame could be his death…as his Ho waits with bated breath to get on with their lives after she effectively ruins a marriage and takes away from my marriage…maybe death…no sorry to say there was no shame in their game…I caught him erasing texts and phone calls with his brother when I entered the hospital room…I am pretty sure that is what they were doing…he handed me the phone when he saw me and said here I have nothing to hide……yeah, he ‘has nothing to hide’ why because your brother helped you to erase the skank whore /miss glitter clam….as he callously made his announcement..here’s a guy that knew he wasn’t going to make it…a guy that I cried over every single day since he passed…and to the bitter end…to the eleventh hour…he had no shame in his game…he went to the grave with his secret and then all was revealed after he died. I cried over the deceit and the sham, over the fraud and the façade, over the years wasted, over the chump that I was, over the young years wasted on a narcissist, it’s something that I still think of everyday. I don’t know when or how or IF I will ever reach meh… I struggle with it to the point where, for the first time in my life, I think I will need to tell my story to a professional to get over the pain of the deceit and the lies, the betrayal and then the death…and then I wondered how I could ever even mourn his death from what he did to me….

  • Pay no attention to the man with the bow tie! He’ll try to MANIPULATE YOU!!! Ohhh – Scary.

    Yep – she actually sent that message out to her peeps after I discovered her affair.

    I really don’t know where her shame is or if she feels any at all. She certainly did the “I’m a saaad sausage” thing off and on and from what I gather still does. Shame would imply accepting the truth of what she did though and given that I know that she’s lied to pretty much anyone who will listen that she only started seeing Senor MoneyBags after she left, I have no idea. I do know that she is capable of believing her own lies even in the face of actual facts.

    She of course could never be the unfaithful wife and since I was pretty obviously devoted and faithful to her for nearly 3 decades there must be another story – which actually I’ve never heard – and am happier for that.

    I feel no shame. I tried my damnedest to dance hard enough to “win her back”, the only impact of which was to reassure her that she could keep chasing after Senor and have me as a backup plan. Until I told her I was done. Which she may or may not believe even with the divorce being completely absolutely final with the last order taking effect on Monday. I have no shame. I did what I felt was right even if I was wrong. I hold my head high each and every day and always tell the truth.

    She does indeed know what she did and even perhaps why. Our children know. Our mutual friends know. Heck, even random people I’ve met in the store know when I’ve been having a particularly bad day. We live in (now separate but close) small towns. People love gossip.

    Will it catch up to her in a Karma bus zooming past? No clue. But I am sure that the glee that she showed in “getting away with it” has long since passed.

    BT

    • Me too Bow Tie. He met her 3 days after the separation —right! —evidence is to the contrary( I don’t drink champagne so the topper in my bedroom was compelling given his history of cheating). Most mothers would not let a man they met 5 weeks prior move in. At least decent mothers… . Congratulations on the divorce it will keep getting better..

    • Congratulations BowTie, for your upcoming Freedom from a Cheater Day! What are you doing to celebrate? You deserve so much better than her.

      • Thanks @FindingBliss.

        I’m not actually planning much to mark the day. The usual bachelor / single dad stuff. Laundry, cleaning, gardening, perhaps a hike.

        “Deserve” is a word I struggle with. None of us “deserved” what happened and perhaps we “deserve” better. I think a key difference between myself and Mme is that she perhaps thought she “deserved happiness” and “the good life” with Senor Moneybags and his wallet. Not that that seems to have worked out for her. This played out throughout our marriage in that she refused to face difficult tasks or decisions. Probably one reason why it took her so long to leave on her own when I pick-me danced instead of throwing her out. I on the other hand always try to tackle the hardest task in front of me first. It saved Mme numerous times.

        It’s like I told an acquaintance of mine who was trying to assure me that “good things will happen to good people”. I responded by saying that I grew up on a farm and that I knew that someone had to shovel the shit.

        BT

        • A woman that waits for her knight in shining armor will have to clean up after his horse !

  • Can’t have real shame if you don’t have real empathy. Their ‘sexual high’ is too important to them.

    When you find out how deep their scam is, it is truly chilling.

  • You know how when you try to put two magnets of the same polarity together they repel one another? Yeah – that is Fucktards shame, and his shame is ME. I am the physical embodiment of his shame.

    On DDay he told me the truth about himself:

    Fucktard: I can never look at you the same way again. I can’t stay married to you.

    Me: What?! Because I’m crying you refuse to try counseling?!

    Fucktard: You …. looking at you makes me feel ashamed.

    Over the next six months he would pop up with that a couple of times.

    Fucktard: I know I hurt you and that is why I know I can never come back.

    Me: WTF!? How dare you blame me! You know I want nothing more then to reconcile and you saying that because I’m hurt that it is off the table?!!!

    Fucktard: No, I don’t blame you! I mean I know I am the one that hurt you and I can’t face it.

    Behold — My Name Is SHAME, and I am the Goddess Repository of All of Fucktard’s Icky feelings.

    But then I became the devil incarnate when I found out CFMD’s child abusing past, not to mention when my lawyer held Fucktard accountable (no, we will not just take your word for it – we need to see your paystubs, asshole). At that point he emailed me out of the blue letting me know “I am trying very hard to maintain some respect for you as the mother of my children, but it is very hard”

    Well, then. Demoted from Shame Goddess to Bitch Ex Wife.

    Looking back, I see this as a pattern. Fucktard had 0 childhood friends that he kept in contact with. In 25 years at the same job he had 2 friends, but once he left that department the friendships shriveled. Or really, who knows what happened? He was in a fraternity (my friend group first) he has 0 friends from it.

    I think throughout his life, whenever he is found out as the pathological liar he is he walks away and does not reconnect. Ever. He wants no reminders that he did something shameful. Or perhaps everybody else in his life is smarter then I was and dumped his ass.

    Either way – his shame is something he runs from. I hope it haunts his dreams.

    • Respect. I got that one covered.

      For years I agonized about his lack of respect for me, and his blame-shifting that it was my fault because I didn’t respect him enough.

      It took a trial separation for me to realize that he was incapable of respecting me because he had no respect for himself. What he wanted me to respect was his personal freedom to be a slovenly, alcoholic, spendthrift, cheating, conspiracy-theory, lying thief.

      What I wanted him to respect was a clean house, clean dishes, good credit rating, healthy retirement nest egg, decent looking clothes (cleaned and ironed is enough), going to bed at a reasonable hour, periodic and sober conjugal relations (works better when you’re not drunk), and getting up early enough to actually get things accomplished together before noon.

      He didn’t have respect for any of that, so of course he had no respect for me. It just took me a very long time to realize that no amount of loving attention would make a difference.

    • Calmafterstorm, mine too had zero childhood friends. The ones he has now rarely contact him. I used to ask them out to his birthday party once a year. One of them complained about the distance of the venue one year and I changed it to somewhere more convenient for that person. I should have seen the signs there and then. They couldn’t be bothered to be inconvenienced…for him!

      He never contacts his friends and they never contact him and therefore I’m here. I need to be his everything. Its a big ask and almost anyone would fail that.

    • Same here. Fuckwit never went to see his baby son after his 1st divorce…for 30 yes I insisted he go see him. He always responded his ex was crazy and wanted nothing to do with her. So his son grew up without a father. He sent cards and gifts but he never called as the child grow older.

      It’s like he just washed away the shame of his earlier life. No matter how I asked over the years, why they really divorced, his carefully crafted story was always the same – she was crazy. Now, after having called her, I know that he did the same thing to her. Love bomb, idealize, the value and then a brutal discard.

      Post my Dday, he had absolutely no shame, no guilt, no remorse, no contrition etc. just deer in the headlights Mask for 2 months until I throw him out. The injustice he felt of my telling family and friends the truth was so great that he wanted me to put a clause in our separation agreement that said I was never to talk to any of his family or friends or his workplace ever. To stop harassing them. Interesting how one phone call to separate individuals constitutes harassing. He told me to stop telling everybody what happened. Impression management you think?

      Both my first and 2nd, now current, therapists assure me he has a lot of shame. No matter how I try to emphasize he’s only embarrassed that he got caught and my telling my story is making impression management difficult, they insist that all their sex addiction clients have great shame. So I can only imagine that his therapist is validating his toxic shame.

      That he hates who he is and that he’s been like this since school-age, is more likely his inner story now that I can look back at things he has done and said. He hates himself so much, he not only wears a mask, he has to wear the whole costume. There in lies his narcissistic attitude. It’s all fake.

      Like Dr. Simon says, it’s not that he doesn’t know what he’s done, it’s that he doesn’t care.

      And if you don’t care, you can’t have shame.

      The thing I keep coming back to in therapy, is that he is still being a fuckwit after blowing up our family. Using his covert aggression to speedily put the house on the market so he can get his grubby little hands on his equity so he can move forward. Gaslighting at least once in each email to get me to be “agreeable”. He still thinks he can sweet talk me.

      Like my therapist illuminated for me, “the definition of a narcissist is that they have no empathy…it’s like you keep hoping he’a suddenly going to start caring when he has never cared at all? “. Ouch!!

  • Shame (lack of) was last week in the mediators office telling her in a very matter of fact and sanctimonious tone that IF he had an STD (as I’m claiming), that he would have felt “responsible” and “done the right thing” by telling ALL OF HIS SEXUAL PARTNERS. And Mr. NO Shame was clueless when we both went silent and simply stared at him. I said,”NOW you’re responsible? Where was that responsibility when you cheated with the whore and GAVE IT TO ME???” And so much more…1. revealing to a third party that he had MULTIPLE partners and 2. Obviously didn’t use protection. Just when you think they can’t get any more disgusting, they open their mouths and more raw sewage spews out. He finally had a look on his face that wasn’t SHAME, but it was like oh shit, I shouldn’t have said that…

  • Mine claimed the house made him feel bad, which is why he had to move out for “space”. I still remember the marriage counselor (we actually had one of the good ones) trying to explain that the Bad Feels were NOT coming from inside the house, but from his own guilt/shame over his behavior. Total blank look. Did Not Compute.

    Not too long after that he stopped going, because the counseling *also* made him feel bad.

    At no point could he make the mental leap that “when you do a bad thing, it is normal to have Bad Feels about that”. Just some vague sense that things felt bad, but if he got *away* from those things, Less Bad!

    The vegan chick will fix it all with broth and supplements, and then he’ll never feel bad again….

    • Narcula became a veggie while chasing his yoga instructor. Thought it would get her in his bed. You would think that all the vegan and vegetarian affair partners would not want all that pork in their diet.

      • I got the opposite. After 20+ years of marriage he decided that he couldn’t handle me being a vegetarian (even though I still cooked meat for him) so he just had to go find a “normal” woman to replace me. I was a vegetarian years before he and I even met so that wasn’t a post marriage surprise. I kept him after he suddenly decided to take up hunting in the year or two before he blew up our marriage. Maybe that was just a ploy to get me to leave him first and when it didn’t work he had to try something else. Who knows.

  • Narcula tricked my daughter and her husband to come over to his boat, yeah he lives on a sail boat with no shower, to meet with sparkletwat the yoga camp troll on fathers day. The one boundary my daughter gave him is she didn’t want to meet ‘that girl’ since sparkletwat is 2 years older than her. He blew through that boundary like a freight train. Yep, no shame.

  • I was just thinking about this yesterday. How can they act like they aren’t the most despicable people in the entire world (along with the rest of the fuckwits out there). How can they traipse around in public and act like what they did didn’t MATTER?? That their actions didn’t shatter two families and permanently, irrevocably damage all the children involved? Where is their SHAME????

    As Tracy so candidly puts it, they suck. Period. Where is their shame? They don’t have any, because they are remorseless, selfish shells of people that absolutely suck. We are blessed to have them out of our daily lives, but the children have to put up with these people that think the other parent is replaceable, disposable, insignificant. Makes me want to vomit if I let myself think about it for too long.

    A friend just told me that the ex has a statement on his facebook page (where most people put inspirational quotes): “father to four, husband to one”. WTH is that? Let me do the math for you – I have 2 kids, the OW has 2 kids – and those 2 kids have their own father. The level of delusion that these people operate under is just bizarre. Where is his shame? In the real world, there is no shame where he’s currently residing.

    • I wonder that too. I wonder how CFMD can look her new in laws in the eyes knowing that they know she was the OW. I wonder how CFMD was able to make nice to my daughter knowing she was the OW!!

      I wonder how my ex can wax poetic about the wonderfulness of CFMD knowing that they know she was the OW! I wonder how Fucktard can play sad sausage to our kids and tell them things like “you got to see mom cry, there were some nights there that I was really sad too”.

      He knows that they know he left to be with his OW.

      If I did that and knew everybody knew what I did I would die of shame.

      Them? Eh, that was the past, and besides now they are finally happy! Chumps just need to get over being so negative and jealous…..I truly hate them.

      • They don’t feel shame but they do care about image. Ex was so hurt that I told my Dad why I was so upset after DDay and now he doesn’t want any more people than already know to find out about the origins of his relationship with Schmoopie. He expects people who know to think poorly of them even though he thinks their case is special. When I went on a camping trip with the boys and their boy scout leader all he cared about after was whether or not I had told the leader about OW because her son used to be in that troop and he wouldn’t want to volunteer if he thought anybody might think poorly of him or Schmoopie. I just told him that we hadn’t discussed it, but I was so tempted to say “life is so much easier when you don’t go around doing things you don’t want anybody to find out about”.

    • Triumph that quote is so obviously insane. How boggled down with rot does your brain have to be to actually post something like that? These monsters know exactly what they are doing with that kind of crap.

    • I wonder about all of that, too….how can ex and married OW/now wife be so insensitive and indifferent? I got nothing….except to conclude that they are both sociopaths. It’s the only explanation. When our son got married a couple of years ago, they, of course, were at the wedding. When officiant at the ceremony asked “family” of the bride and groom to stand to give a pledge of support, SHE ACTUALLY STOOD UP. No shame. Later at the reception, they burned up the dance floor all night long….whereas if I had their history, I would have cowered in a corner and left early. No shame. Ex went around to all our family and friends at the reception – knowing that everyone knew all the sordid details of his double life, multiple affairs, and serial cheating, and “introduced” her!! I almost felt as though I should apologize to our family and friends for his ignorance and complete disregard for their comfort. It was clearly an awkward moment for all of them. So yeah, his shame is MIA I guess.

  • My Jesus Cheater’s shame was miraculously lifted when he told me Jesus had already forgiven him…um… yeah before BD. So you see since his true love soul mate was “sent by God” how could he be at fault? Besides if I really loved him I would want him to be happy. Well then who can blame someone for wanting to be happy?! ESPECIALLY WITH THE JESUS STAMP OF APPROVAL

    • These new rules must have come from BIBLE 2: THE SPARKLY SEQUEL.

      A magical adventure where we find out that you can just do whatever you want and thy neighbour has to just put up with it.

  • You can’t feel shame when you believe nothing you do is wrong. Lady Liar has the most highly developed sense of denial and justification I’ve ever seen. She’s an addict and had years of practice perfecting lying, stealing, and other forms of secrecy and manipulation. Has a heart that’s cold as ice, just like her mother. There’s just empty holes where their souls should be.

  • While Mr. Sparkles was cropping me and our son out of a baptismal photo literally at the font in our church so he could send a picture of himself in a suit to someone he was emailing on Craigslist for a hook-up where he called himself a BiMWM interested in finding a couple for regular get-togethers, his shame must’ve been playing Xbox Call of Duty..

    • Wow. Using your son’s baptismal photo for a Craigslist skank hookup is bottom-of-the-barrel.

    • Icstmc, it’s 10:30 PM but I Just have to comment on … I don’t even have words. What a pompous ass. I’m so glad you are rid of this shallow bastard.

  • I think that comment above ended up in the wrong place, somehow. ACK.

    But as to where is Jackass’s shame: Jackass left his shame with XW#1. He married her when he didn’t want to according to his account; looking back on his story, it’s clear that he had already moved into the “discard” phase but he still went through with the wedding, only to go full abuse mode on their way out of the church. He tells that story as if he is the victim, as if a young bride would not feel anything as her new husband blamed her for his decision to get married. Having experienced his level of verbal abuse, I can’t imagine how hurt a young 20-something newlywed would be. What’s most shameful is that he is the one who tells this story, making it all about “how he married when he didn’t want to” and how “the honeymoon went wrong because they had a fight over which car to take.” He never had one bad word to say about this woman. Not one. But also not one word about what he loved about her that led to the marriage. Not a word about why he wanted to end it. It’s just a “funny” story about HIS past. In retrospect, the absence of any self-reflection, empathy or cause-and-effect explanation for events reveals how totally hollow he is. No shame but also nothing else where shame might be. This story, way more than what happened with me, shows what he is.

    • That poor woman. What was supposed to be a happy milestone moment in her life turned into a nightmare.

  • The shame is in the family shared amazon shopping cart full of sex toys that would make stormy Danielles blush..the shame is her, she is the shame..

  • Earlier in the separation, my ex would just have speakerphone calls in the car w/her AP, either not realizing, or not caring, that her 2 teen daughters were in the car and would appreciate not having to hear the “I love yous” and “I miss yous” between their mother and this guy. Once this was brought up in custody hearings, and repeated again in multiple family therapy sessions for her to stop doing this, the ex realized her ways and stopped this type of behavior. Now, she’s back to doing it again, and either doesn’t again realize, or doesn’t care what her children think. Then, she wonders why her she doesn’t have the same relationship she used to have w/the girls.

    As for her attending church. She made a point to come back for an event at our church, wherein she sat in the back w/her sibling and parents (we never sat in the back of the church), and then had the guts to receive holy communion from the pastor and in front of other parishioners who know what she did.

    Indeed, just #shameless

  • It took me a long time to get over caring whether Jackass and the MOW ended up together. I’d like to have every single minute that I worried about that back. I could clean a lot of closets or read a lot of romance novels with that time.nn

    Here’s the thing: I know what he is. That isn’t going to change. What did change was my ability to recognize a disordered person coming down the road. Getting to Meh for me was about caring more about my life than what Jackass does with his.

  • Apparently his girlfriend is trying to give it back to me, as I received an electronic communication from her that said,

    “Shame on you.”

    I say, “No givesies backsies.”

    Phzzzzt.

  • Unlike so many questions posed by Tracy, I actually know the answer to this one with great precision (thanks to “Find My iphone” app). BAM’s shame is located in a small grove of trees at the back corner of a baseball park and adjacent to a small cemetery right around the corner from our house. It was from this location that he spent many happy moments having phone sex with his boyfriend in a distant state before coming home to his family and his dinner. I imagine he is pleased to live a full hour away from this location … no discomfort to deal with but rather a fast fading memory.

  • Shame…why would my Ex feel shame ?? After all on Dday I was told that I drove her to cheat and later on after the divorce the story changed to I was the one who cheated on HER and then abandoned her and the kids.

    Disordered folks never feel shame because nothing is ever their fault.

  • Cheaters are only willing to feel shame if it’s between their legs because hey, it makes the sex hotter.

  • I actually think that my husband felt shame in the more than a year he was having the affair until he left the marriage just after Christmas. I think that it’s what has driven some of his shitty behaviour. He sucks and he knows he is sucking, but he has to do what he has to do to be happy. As I’ve written before, the euphoria he feels with the OW is like heroine, he explained.

    It’s not a great answer. Once he buries that shame, in other words loses himself to astounding levels of cognitive dissonance, then he’s feels rational in what he’s doing…the marriage was already over, he didn’t love me anymore, he’s not sure he ever loved me, he hasn’t felt anything physical for me in years, he thinks I’m too strong, I did nothing but criticize him and make him feel worthless.

    I don’t think that my husband is a disordered narcissist, but no doubt he has become narcissistic. I hope for his sake that he works out his issues and finds himself – someone that his family and friends can actually recognize. I do not hold out for unicorns anymore. He may never deal with this or come out the other end self-enlightened, and if he doesn’t, we’re going to have some serious issues co-parenting because I absolutely am mama bear.

    The shame is there. It’s why he’s avoiding family. It’s why he’s avoiding friends whose wives I am close too. It’s why he no longer plays on his brother’s baseball team but joined the baseball team at his new job. It’s why he can’t look me in the eye. It’s why he gets embarrassed when the family counsellor, who attends to our children and meets with us, calls him out on how much t.v. time and gaming time he gives them on the days he has them. It’s why he stumbles when she asks him if the children share certain feelings with her in their sessions and he says that they never say anything (but they do to me). He knows…

    But in the end, at this time in his life, the shame simply does not outweigh the benefits he perceives he is getting from giving it all up for this relationship. That shame will evolve into false pride. When things start to go sour, he will spackle the cracks to no end because his pride will want to prove that he didn’t make a mistake. He will do anything to please her and keep her around because she’s the only one who feeds him kibbles now. It’s desparate, it’s pathetic, and it’s very, very saddening.

    • @OptionNoMore – This is so close to my story. He fully justifies it to himself. But he knows. And he feels very sorry. For himself.

    • That is a sad life to live. Thank goodness we Chumps can live an authentic life. Living every new day with a great optimistic perspective.
      Cheaters live every day, for the rest of their lives, having to rationalize and justify what they have done. They wake up in morning everyday having to convince themselves that they are good people. That they are victims. And that we are horrible people who made them unhappy.
      What a miserable life they lead.

    • I recognize this completely. My STBEX has completely rewritten his story to be that there are “other factors” that led to the breakup of our marriage, and our shitty relationship now, somehow reducing his cheating to a blip. He refuses to acknowledge that that was the root cause. Not his unhappiness, his lack of engagement in our relationship, his deep disrespect for me and all the work and effort I put in. I’m not sure what these “other factors” are, as he can’t articulate them in any detail, but just trots this out to try to defend himself to our children.

      I don’t think he will ever work out his issues. He’s made these choices and now is locked on this new life path, and your comment about the “false pride” rings so true for me when I see him. He needs to believe that this is all correct and right and as it should be and I was the mistake.

    • OptionNoMore-
      Beautifully written, just beautiful. I agree with everything you said. Everything!

  • I read years ago how narcissists are experts at putting shame and guilt on others to carry. It didn’t resonate with me but now that I’ve lived it (narc family members) I finally get it.

  • Mine was doing brazen things in front of me AND Schmoopies common law husband (his brother!) as if we weren’t there. Flirting openly, sharing her dessert, licking her fork while gazing into her eyes….crying as she gave birth and sobbing that he should be in the delivery rm instead of her friend. He was going to stay with her while his brother was out of town so she wouldn’t be alone. Hello? What about me, your pregnant wife???? They have no shame because they are thinking only of themselves and instant gratification.

  • I’m with everyone else here who said that their cheater never had any shame to begin with. There was NO shame. No conscience or empathy either of course. Plenty of flaunting and recklessness and delusion but absolutely NO shame. That’s what I get for being taken in by a true sociopath.

  • My ex cheated on me several times, did not care about my or the childrens feelings, lied about anything and everything and told his parents and the few friends he has that ‘we just grew apart’.
    His parents did not believe this. So a year after the divorce they asked me what happened. I asked them if they really wanted to know. They did, and now they know. They were shocked. They keep in touch with me, and tell me I’m still their daughter. When I see other relatives of my ex at birthdays (they always invite me) they are extremeley nice to me, and ignore my ex. He was furious I told his parents what happened, because now his image of the perfect son is ruïned.
    But his parents always thought that I was the strong one in our relationship and they were so happy ‘I straightened him out’. But in the end, of course, I didn’t. But I’m still the strong one 🙂

  • He traded in his shame for self-forgiveness at one of those mega churches in the suburbs. He talked to Jesus who said he would clear it with the Mega Pastor. So It’s All Good, Y’all!

    Oops! There was still a little bit left. He dropped it off at one of those mini-Goodwill Drop Off locations right next to his favorite liquor store.

  • My 64yr old X said: “I don’t DO shame, and I don’t DO guilt”!
    I asked: “Then why do you bother to hide all the wicked things that you do”?
    My X said: “Because I also don’t DO consequences”. “Jesus died for ALL my sins”!
    I smiled: “Well, that was then, but this is now”.
    My X: “And”?
    Me: “Incoming missile already launched and guess who is the target”?
    My X: “Lawyers are too expensive”.
    Me: “Not for me, I have been saving for years”….”So then, you keep your business and truck, I keep mine…you sign the house over to me, I pay you half, and no Spousal Support on either side”.
    My X: “Sounds fair”…”Deal.”
    Me: “Paralegal to draft everything up tomorrow and submit to the Court”.
    My X: “Deal”.
    Me: “You pay the Paralegal for your freedom to live as you please…it is $900 total including filing fees”.
    My X: “That’s all”? “Deal”.
    Me: “You move out within 30 days”.
    My X: “Can you help me find a place”?
    Me: “Already did…here is the address and online pictures of the rental”.
    My X: “Wow…looks really nice…Victorian even”!
    Me: “It is only for 10 months…they are going on a cross country travel vacation…it is fully furnished and walking distance to your store”.
    My X: “Sounds like a great transition”!
    Me: “I thought you’d like it”.
    My X: “This does not feel like consequences at all…what’s the catch”?
    Me: “I pay my own consequences…you pay yours”.
    My X: “Sounds fair enough”!
    Me: “Time will tell”.
    My X: “Shall we drink to that”?
    Me: “Cheers”!

    🙂

    • Well done! I hope to achieve this level of MEH. Mine left for good just after Christmas and hasn’t said a word about a legal separation agreement. I’m confused by why he hasn’t initiated as I know he needs to money of the equity of the house. Figure it’s really just an extension of how he always was in our marriage – doesn’t want to do the work.

      Initially, I wanted to wait for him to do it all. Figured that if he’s the one that ended the marriage, then it’s on him to initiate the agreement. But, I’ve switched in my thinking. It’s time to end this. I’ll be seeking to start the process in the next few weeks and insisting on it being done swiftly. I hope that I can reflect your attitude throughout the process.

  • Had I only found ChumpLady sooner… After the shock settled in discovering the affair (a week or so), my mind was in a place where I really wanted to point out what he did was wrong. I foolishly tried to shame him. Did that get me anywhere?
    Nope. Nada. Zilch.

    According to the timeline of visits to see his whore under the guise of “Once again this month, I’m driving to my hometown 4.5 hours away to take care of my mom who’s suffering from Alzheimer’s and also to give my #brutha a much needed break from all that responsibility- because I’m such a good person”

    I pointed one Thurs-Sun trip my daughter wanted to go with him, in particular to him to try to make him feel any ounce of shame. At the time, I was included in their texts. I remember I was trying to be the mediator as they texted back and forth with this trip. She wanted to make the drive, practice driving for her upcoming DL test, and see her grandma and she texted her dad back that this is what she wanted to do.

    Cheater would not have daughter screwing up his plans with his jesus whore!

    He texted his daughter back “You rarely call grandma to talk to her, you didn’t express any interest going last time I went, you’ve never shown any interest in visiting her in the past, therefore you don’t get to go”

    He dropped her off at home after her dentist appt, quickly packed and went off on his 4 day sinfest rendezvous.
    According to my Discover bill, he forgot to pack- socks, a pillow, shoes, jeans, and underwear and went to a store in his hometown. He must have been so excited to leave his daughter at home alone, after making her feel bad and like a shitty, unthoughtful grandaughter, that he forgot to pack his pillow for that one night he actually did spend with his mom (thus preventing him from having to rest his entitled head on his mother’s dust mite ridden 40 year old down pillows).
    Did me sending him screenshots of their texts, along with evidence of the true purpose of his visit make him realize what a douche canoe he is?
    No.
    He’d rather shame his own daughter for not calling her grandma enough than feel any shame.

  • About a month ago my ex freaked out because I wouldn’t talk to him and when I’m NC for too long he ramps up his antics. Anyway he left a note on my door saying he was going to kill himself. He had the kids at the time and bought them back early thank god. Although I don’t think he would harm them but they would have seen his distress. I unblocked his number to be in contact and he kept saying his was going to do it so I called suicide prevention and the Police. The police came to my door and while I’m talking to them I get a txt from him and it’s a nude picture, full frontal, like wtf. I was gob smacked and it was really uncomfortable trying to hide this shit at the door. In hindsight I should have shown the police. So later that evening he is pissed that the police turn up at his house as he thought it was me knocking on his door and he really thought we may wind up in bed together again. Said he nearly answered the door with a hard on!,,
    And he was concerned at what his neighbours would think having the police around.
    Jesus this is embarrassing enough to write.
    I had a terrible nights sleep and felt anxious and my kids where rattled by this. The next day he goes out shopping and drops some blankets off at my door for the kids.
    No shame just fucking bizarre.

    • He has sent these pics unsolicited before. I told him if he ever did it again I would forward it to his Mum.!,

    • OMG. That is totally bizarre. I’m frightened for the kids first and foremost. But I can’t stop laughing at how truly deranged he is. WTF is wrong with him? Oh, my goodness what a freak show.

      I’m glad your kids are home and safe with you. This deranged display of irrational behavior will be used against him down the road.

    • Ahhh, time for some Jedi No Contact training for Deep No Contact:

      Next time, don’t call him – just call the police and send them round to his house, saying he’s threatening suicide.

      In the US, I believe that’s a 72 hour detention order right there. He’ll never do it again.

      Shut. That. Shit. Down.

      • It was a tough one as he had the kids. I didn’t want the police going to his house with them there. I texted back and forth a few times, then when kids came home I blocked again and rang police. Kids where rattled but they are tough nuggets. Won’t hesitate next time in calling police straight away, live and learn.

  • What kind of shame are we talking about…the shame you feel when you realize youve done wrong…or the shame you feel when you’ve done wrong and it’s DISCOVERED and brought to light? In my case I don’t think he had either kind.

  • The piece of shit I wipe off my very virginal white nursing shoes tells family and friends, “I feel like shit for doing her wrong.” Yep, yep you’re a piece of shit! It is the only time you have recognized a truth!! Be gone IDIOT!

  • My ex-husband has no shame–he took our young kids to various police stations in various parts of state one weekend to get them to falsely testify against a close family member of mine (who is not biologically but emotionally and logistically their ‘true’ male role model and caregiver)–to say that that relative molested them. My ex-husband told my kids ‘not to tell Mom.’ He had already a couple of years earlier taken me to court–on the day he filed for divorce–purportedly for me having abused our kids, although I never abused any kids–and as a former teacher, I’ve worked with some kids who can be extremely disrespectful, dishonest, mean, but even then never thought about abusing them. Four years since my ex-husband filed for divorce from me, he still send messages to my parents accusing them of terrible things they have never done, could never have done (e.g. insult someone in a purported interaction that never occurred), even though they STILL invite him into their house for refreshments! Earlier this week, he told me that he had always been attracted to me, even after he filed for divorce, and asked me if he could move in with the kids and me. The next morning, he was back to his typical self, insulting me. (I haven’t blocked him because I need to communicate with him about our kids, especially hand offs of kids.) He then sent my mother a series of text messages telling her, the woman most people consider a saint, how horrible she was and how horrible her daughter (I) was–how ‘it was impossible to live with your daughter as she was/is such a terrible person.’ (He conveniently leaves out the fact that he was paying prostitutes for sex when he wasn’t trying to impregnate one of his affair partners, among other seedy/illegal activities.) This treatment of my family of origin after I told him (shortly after D-Day #1) that I would accept the fact that he had affair partners (‘let him have a mistress or two or ten’–he had some male lovers, too) and stay faithful to him! I suspect that I may have won several Olympic gold medals in the door mat competition! And sadly, I went back for another round Olympic games in the door mat competition AGAIN by dating and tolerating my last boyfriend until he permanently discarded me the last time. Very disturbingly, last night I dreamed that I was emotionally desperate for intimate relations with and was in bed with my ex-husband, who abused me for years (still does) and I have sometimes thought might try to kill me just because he was having a bad day (not caused by me). Have restraining orders. Police used to come to our home. (I don’t want to crave physical/emotional intimacy as the craving may make me susceptible to again getting into an awful relationship if someone offers. I wish that I could wholly BELIEVE that a permanently sexless life, following a ‘carnal’ life, i.e., marriage, were just as good as if not better than a life that included a loving, committed sexual partner. Guess I’m still not (unconsciously) convinced.) It took me awhile to recover today. I seriously wonder if I have Stockholm Syndrome!

  • His shame: Having an affair with our oldest daughter’s Girl Scout troop leader. Who was also a good friend of mine. While I was breastfeeding our third child. And working full time. Oh, and finishing a masters degree. Meh.

    • What an empty asshole
      Sorry that you had to go through this
      You are a smart lady, get away from that
      You can’t fix it, turns out you can only control yourself
      There’s nothing there
      Hugs

  • I’ve learned not to accept any guilt or shame from any of the Cluster B’S I previously wasted time and energy on in the past.

    Figuring out the narrative and watching with ease how they effortlessly find new supply without owning an ounce of responsibility allows me not to forgive but to stay clear.

    It was a huge struggle letting go of what I thought I should fight for because it was all I knew. What so often looks like shame from a cheater is always about their injury, not their actions.

    And I held onto the actions and replayed them in my head over and over. There is no logic behind their actions and untangling eventually led me to knowing there was nothing I could have said or done to change my narcissist father or covert pathological lying X.

    We can leave them or they may die. We can watch and predict their future actions. Regardless, they have absolutely no shame.

    Narcissists will continue to triangulate through their children subtly. They’ll always let their presence be known one way or another.

    It’s one of the most shameless actions I’ve witnessed with both my father and the Limited. “Dad’s moved on he never mentions you. Dad’s depressed because he misses his granddaughter. You have the power (contact with) to fix this. “

    They will always do what they know. This is why it’s so important to protect yourself, never own their shame, or feel guilted.

    • Shame seems to only happen for them when other people find out how sneaky they are. If no one knows they will keep carrying on like a fool. Showing their true colours, I might add.

      What kind of person does this? They want people to think they have integrity but it’s ok if they don’t. As long as everyone thinks it’s ok well It’s ok.

    • Well said, and good for you! I’ve found it a steep learning curve to see through the smoke screens they set up to pin all the blame on you. Especially so when you learn the pattern at a young age from a Cluster B parent (or perhaps I should say ‘parent’ because that may technically be their role, but they do a horrible job of it!). But it’s so true that “they will always do what they know”–it’s the only way they know how to function, and they have no interest in taking responsibility for their lives. It’s just so much easier to dump their toxic crap on unsuspecting chumps willing to take it.

      • I’m convinced he’s evil. The layers upon layers of plotting, planning and ENJOYING it to boot. The man I slept next to for decades hated me.

        The thing is that after I threw him out people close to me wondered what I saw in him.

        You’d think it would be recognizable and yet if I uttered those words I’d be called crazy.

        In truth I feel sorry for anyone he partners with; yet Nanthony deserves the ride he’s taking her on.

        • yes from what I learned from the famous narcissist on youtube they actually do HATE us
          they have something lined up in the pipeline that they go crazy lovebombing and as along as that whore at work supplies them with what they are looking for, this can go on forever.
          Mine was plotting and planning since day one. I think since after the honeymoon. But you would never know. He was gorgeous and charming and everything else. But he had a secret plan all along. Wasting my time and years. And a whore at work that went along with him for years, getting money and everything else. She hung in there with him and he continued his double life all the while smiling his ass off (enjoying) as they were both stabbing me in the back. THey must have been loving it. Especially her, she was spreading it and getting paid well for it. And her enjoyment was the fun and money and the notch on her belt that he would disrespect his wife (me) to the utmost uber degree. She must have felt uber special. That whore was told a bunch of lies for her to stay climbing on him all these years. I can imagine the lies about everything. I have to be humiliated and embarrassed that this went on at my expense

  • If he had it at all, he probably lost it between the cushions of the couch where he first got fucked by the older married “straight” man.

    • My cheater left his shame under our Christmas tree while he stuffed OW’s stocking IN OUR BED on the same day we had taken our annual holiday family photo wearing matching outfits. (Our tacky sweaters weren’t the only “ugly” things in that pic!)

  • I concur with all of you that express the lack of shame our cheaters demonstrate.
    If I had done half the things that either exh has, I’d be wracked with guilt and shame afraid of showing myself in public.
    Alas, I’m a human being with a conscience, moral compass, dignity, and some level of class ( 😉 ).
    I was too embarrassed, and yes ashamed of myself that I had married such a vile scumbag that was my husband. The lying, cheating, stealing from me was my secret shame, my cross to bear.
    I felt like I had done this to myself. I had married for life and was determined to stay in it out of some sense of loyalty, though he showed me none. I finally reached the point to where if he wanted out, he could jolly well go. I wasn’t going to stop him. I didn’t challenge nor confront after D-Day. I stewed, plotted, planned myself, until he couldn’t stand the pressure of me not challenging him and finally manned up to tell me he was done and would be leaving.
    He has no shame, no remorse because to hear him talk, he didn’t do anything wrong. He still denies everything.

    • UnsinkableMolly
      I understand completely for your experience is so similar to mine.

      They are soulless creatures who tear out our hearts with a smirk on their face. Hopefully you are away from him & living a better life. Good luck to you friend 😊

  • I meant to elaborate on the secret shame…
    Once D-Day hit, I spilled my guts out to everyone. Some parts, some truths were still too shameful to reveal right then, but in time I did.
    What’s funny is that once I started talking about all that I had hidden, I started realizing that I had nothing to be ashamed of. I did that man right and good, and over and over again he betrayed me and wronged me.
    Three years now for me and I now speak the truth, no matter what.
    Exh2 got all pissy with me when he realized I was telling people about his dirty deeds, so I told him that if he didn’t lie on me, I wouldn’t have to tell the truth about him. Crickets

    • Damn right Unsinkable! You truly live up to your handle. I admire your candor as antidote for disorder.

      My X to this day blames my inability to supply him with children for his pre-marriage cheating -because you know, he had to be SURE. His dating around to be “sure” wasn’t the issue, the issue was keeping me in the dark and on the shelf. I could have found someone much better for myself during our years of dating.

      That just grinds me.
      Step 2 of his blamestorm is that because I was unable to give him babies, somehow that caused his heavy drinking, cheating, Depression, financial abuse and the worst – the gun collecting.

      No blame for him = no shame!

      I have a completely clear conscious.

  • So much shame! My husband have been separated for about 3.5 months (2 months after we bought a new house in a new town). I found out a 1.5 months ago that he was having a 2 year affair with the local town doorknob. Of course, I was the last person to know as he made it very public that he was living with her and her kids during our entire separation…because he rolled up to my kid’s old school with her….this is also how my 11 year old kid learned about dads new family. All. The.shame!!!!

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