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Dear Chump Lady, He butt-dialed me from the OW’s

buttdialDear Chump Lady,

I left my fiancee after finding out he had an affair with a subordinate of his at work. I still haven’t gotten the whole story out of him (to this day, he still sticks by his story that they only “made out a little bit” even though there were nights where he wouldn’t come back home). Through a lot of emotional roller coasters these past 4 months, I feel like I really achieved “Meh.”

Then, last weekend, I get a text from him out of nowhere saying how much he misses me and how he regrets hurting me. When I didn’t respond, he sent me another text saying how I was all he could think about while he was at the hospital. When I didn’t respond to that, he sent another text saying how he’s all alone with no friends and no family in his life.

I caved. I started texting him, cautiously at first, keeping it short — asking why he was in the hospital. Eventually, the conversations turned friendly and nostalgic — back to the days when we we first met. I stupidly got my hopes up for the possibility of a friendship, then a couple hours without a response later, he butt-dials me from the OW’s apartment.

“All alone” my butt! Before I realized what was going on, I heard laughter and giggling, and what sounded like her saying “I love you.” Even though I don’t want him back, it was a harsh reality check that he is still the pathological liar I remember. I sent him one more text of “F*ck you” and he sent a flurry of texts back trying to do damage control.

He said they were “just friends” and that he doesn’t love her, he loves me. He said he was “all alone” because even when they were hanging out, he FELT alone. Yadda Yadda Yadda. I don’t know what happened, but about an hour later, he texted me saying the OW kicked him out of her apartment — that sounds like something a “girlfriend” does — not a “friend.”

Which led me to this thought: I felt like the OW. The girl he texts while he’s with his girlfriend, setting up a lunch date or dinner date. The girl he says “but I really love YOU” as he says “I love you” to his current girlfriend. The girl who causes the fights that end in him being thrown out.

Ugh… Please help me, CL. I need your sassy insight about what I should do. Is friendship really impossible?

Shocked and Confused

Dear Shocked,

Well that depends on exactly how desperate you are for friends. Is it possible? Sure. And I could walk up 6th Street in Austin with $100 bills stuffed in my pockets buying hipsters tequila shots and have a lot of “friends” too. Alternatively, I could get a cardboard cutout figure of Stephen Fry and we could watch Downton Abbey together. More trifle, Stephen? Oh, don’t mind if I do, Tracy. Or I could tell all my deepest secrets to the green scum in my fish aquarium.

It really just boils down to your definition of friend.

Personally, I prefer not to befriend people who promise marriage to me and then fuck their co-workers. But I’m peculiar that way.

If you’d like a quality friendship with someone who cares for you and reciprocates your affections — aim higher. MUCH higher. You’re just a kibble dispenser to this idiot. He has shown you many times over exactly who he is, you’re just refusing to see it. You think there is something there to work with. I don’t know… is there? The philandering. The mindfuckery. The self pity. What exactly is there to miss? The way he looks in a starched shirt?

Have some deal breakers, Shocked. Raise the price on your friendship. Don’t be so easily bought, that all he has to do is pester you with some texts and you’re mush. Standards, woman! STANDARDS!

How’s this for a deal breaker — he CHEATED and he LIED. He abused your trust. If you reward this behavior with your friendship, you’re sending him the clear message that what he did to you Wasn’t That Bad. Which is exactly what he wants — a chump who will take him back and dispense kibbles again and again regardless of his behavior. When things get dicey, he’ll do his little sparkle schtick, and you’re right back in place.

What’s in it for YOU? Feeling like the OW, because unwittingly you ARE the OW? Do you feel special? He’ll fit you in between whatever other piece of tail he’s chasing that day. He’ll reward you with more drama and chaos and he’ll bust your heart into little pieces — because you’ll be expecting a pay off for your loyalty and friendship — and there won’t be one.

You’d get better results with the aquarium scum. So stop being confused and dump this loser for once and for all. When you feel weak, listen to this song by Sister Rosetta Tharpe “Don’t Take Everybody to Be Your Friend.” Repeat as necessary.

This column ran previously. Traveling for the holidays.

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  • My long deceased Okie Mama told me when I was about 12 y.o.: A stiff prick has no conscience. By which she meant that any man who is horny will tell any lies necessary to get laid. And they will MEAN every word, sincerely.

    Maybe this should be cross-stitched and put on every wall in America.

    • ” By which she meant that any man who is horny will tell any lies necessary to get laid. And they will MEAN every word, sincerely.”

      I don’t think that’s true, at all. **Any man** ? No. There are lots of men out there with integrity and a moral compass who will *not* cheat and lie just to get laid. Lots of people, male and female, are capable of controlling their hormones.

      • I agree about being careful not to put all people of one group into any “us and them” bucket.

        That’s why we need fixed pickers. There truly will be some people who won’t transcend their primal biology when aroused, who really will tell any lie necessary to get what they want. They won’t always make this obvious often because, at the time and for the time, they believe themselves. We chumps know it all too well.

        The better we are at recognizing them, the more we can deflect their BS. That’s the beauty of the school of Chump Lady. 😁

    • Absolutely not true.

      This kind of thinking plays into the societal biases that make life for me, HandsofStone, The FooledTwiceDad, BowTie, SydneyChump, ChumpedinKC, pasdedeux_chump and all of the other male members of CN so fucking frustrating.

      • I’m sorry that’s the case, UX, and completely see your point. Not all men are insincere or cheaters, and we (women chumps) are thrilled to be reminded that there are high-quality men of integrity on this site, like you and all the men you mentioned.

      • Wow!!! As a guy who not only ran like a scared dog when opportunity arose, I would go home and tell her about the situations and what I did to counter it. 20 plus years of monogamy never strayed. And I might add, I was the poster boy of excuses to do it. Sex maybe once every couple of months. Third wheel as in kids always came first. I could do nothing right! Like most guys, yes I got “horny” did that mean I would lie and cheat? Nope!!!!

        • Thank u for giving me hope, CN men!

          I love to read your replies.

          I’m fixing my picker to choose one like u (at some point when/if I am ready to date).

        • Same here, brother. Just not wired that way despite lots of opportunities (and several mental fantasies, especially when my now ex-wife began rationing sex like the last remaining saltine in the life raft). Bottom line: I’m just not a cheater.

      • I agree. It is an expression that bothers me. I believe that it came about because it was so common. That said it still needs to be swatted down for the sake of the ones who are decent.

      • Unfortunately I’m so scared/wary of guys now I wouldn’t go out if I was asked. It is great to know men like UXWorld and others are out there though…thanks guys!

    • Imagine how you would feel if somebody posted a negative female stereotype and said it applies to “any woman”.
      For example; “any woman will prostitute herself providing the payment is high enough”.
      We should all strive not to let our personal bitterness turn us into man-haters. By all means realize that such men exist, but it is certainly not every man.

      • When I come across a chump in real life, I tell them “Don’t be put off by the gender of the name Chump Lady.com There are gents who visit the site and comment as well.”

    • Thanks Soldiering,

      Your Mama’s saying triggered me and woke me up a little bit more.
      My ultra-covert narc Ma had loads of snazzy sayings which all said ‘All men are bad’.
      As a young teen I tried to argue against this, and I never agreed with it, but I was so mindfucked by it that it set me up perfectly for marriage to Lying Loser – my bar was set hopelessly low. Repeating the pattern, Lying Loser was a covert narc who constantly abused me with ‘All women are bad’ statements.

      ‘All’ statements about either sex leave no room for discernment.

      Discernment is my shiny new piece of hardware in my ‘Fix Your Picker’ Tool Kit 😀

  • That’s exactly how he wants you to feel, shocked and confused. It’s a test of your boundaries right from the beginning.

    He only kissed a little bit.
    He spends the night.
    She’s a subordinate.

    But your the one!
    You’re the fiancé after all!

    He’s not marriage material.

    Thankfully, the butt dialing gave you insight into the man behind the mask.

    He uses the chaos and drama as a hook. We refer to it as the pick me dance. However, right from the beginning I believe the Cluster B’s pick us for our good qualities. They depend on them.

    • Totally.

      Replace the concept with other unforgiveable offenses and the point becomes more obvious…

      The person only molested the child a little bit…

      The person only stabbed you a little bit…

      The person only stole a portion of your life savings…

      The person only kicked the dog in the head a little bit…

      • I met a woman recently who I will be associated with because of family. She very openly told me she cheated on her husband and he walked away from the marriage. BUT she only did it once and then spent years apologizing to no avail. My CL/CN training popped up and I thought, “good for him.” I also now think, OK I have to watch myself around her, she can’t be trusted. Hate to feel that way but…you know..a leopard can’t change her spots. Hugs to us chumps. So happy to be fuckwit free for holidays. Second Christmas and I actually enjoyed myself! I see the light at the end of the tunnel and it ain’t the train coming at me!

        • Yay for you! Good boundaries!

          I do believe there is room for a person to be fully reformed from ever acting out negatively that way again after learning the lesson of the damage it wreaks.

          I do not believe it is common. At all. It takes years of targeted work.

          Also, I am 100% sure it would never be described by a truly remorseful person as a minimization of the seriousness of the acting out along with an expectation of forgiveness.

          Remorse looks like remorse without any shred of anything else. Accountability leaves room to describe circumstances, but describing does not look like justifying or using circumstances as excuses.

          Accountability, in her case, would have looked more like “He was right to leave the marriage, and there is no excuse for what I did to him. It was unacceptable in every way. That’s why I don’t hang out with any friend’s partner without my friend present, text with my friend’s partner, keep secrets from my own partner, etc. I don’t ever want to send mixed signals, even by accident. I never want to hurt someone I care about like that again, so I make sure it isn’t even an option.”

          Even then, it would take years of real world experience to build trust with that friend, and if that friend expected anything less to be true, it would represent a lack of remorse that is a big red flag.

          When you screw up, you generally have to attend to it for the rest of your life in one way or another. Trying to weasel out of that is indicative of a lack of integrity.

          Integrity is as integrity does.

          • Good points. I have been reading slot about forgiveness. It seems every book, sermon etc I am running into forgiveness. I understand it helps to relieve the pain from injury. It is hard to do but for now I am working on detachment from the injury. Don’t know if I’ll ever get to being charitable to fuckwit. Would be great to get to meh which must be in part about forgiveness-anyone thoughts! Hugs forget will never happen.

            • My thought is that forgiving is more like forgiving a debt (stop trying to “collect” what is owed and never extend the “credit” again), which I think is more like “meh”, than like “forgive and forget”, which I think is unhealthy.

              From my POV, your Meh is a perfect amount of forgiving.

            • Much debate about forgiveness. Seems to be agreement on these points:

              (1) Forgiving does not mean what they did was okay.

              (2) It takes time, lots of time. Like love, forgiving is a continuing action.

              (3) Desired end result: no more wasting precious time & energy on them. Or as Chump Nation puts it: Meh!

        • Before the Dickhead cheated, I have to admit that I didnt really think is the pain or hurt of those cheated upon. I have one cousin that had a cheater wife and very acrimonious divorce. She’s a nasty and vicious woman. He have long since remarried. Another cousin, who cheated both husbands, cheated on #2 with #1. I know look at her in a different light.

          It might be bit late but I now have no sympathy for cheaters. None.

        • At least you know up front. I found out recently that the most obnoxious religious in-law cheated and gave her husband herpes. They’re still married and she’s the most judgmental bitch you have ever had the displeasure to meet.

          I have no idea why he didn’t broom her cheating snobby snotty duplicitous ass to the curb.

        • I read Bill Eddy’s book “Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life” (narcs,borderlines,paranoids,histrionics, and sociopaths) He recommends that once you know what your dealing with,distance yourself. Don’t label them with a term (“Oh my God ! You’re such a narcissist !” “Has anybody ever mentioned you might be borderline ?”) because you could easily become a Target of Blame. Grey rock.

          • I agree about not diagnosing people with terms used by psychologists. We aren’t psychologists and they aren’t our patients. But we can identify behaviors (lovebombing, gaslighting, etc.) that signal we are in the presence of disordered people.

        • I’m sure she spent the years doing other things besides apologising. Mine apologises from time to time while funding another child’s education and another woman a life and placing my children in awkward situation

        • I disagree with your statement. From the time I was 20 until the time I was 35, I cheated on my husband all the time. I eventually left him. After a few years of being single and figuring out right from wrong – and there were a lot of life lessons involved there – my moral compass switched on and I would NEVER cheat or lie on a person again. Ever. I married my second husband and for the next 20 years (from 35 to present) it never once crossed my mind to step over those boundaries. Karma is a bitch though, and even though my current therapist states there is no such thing, my current husband to whom I was 100% faithful, emotionally and physically, cheated on me 7 different times with different women, that I know of anyway, and I’m heartbroken. I now understand fully what my first husband felt. I still would never cheat. I just want to be clear that there can be redemption. And I would be fully honest with anyone that asked me about both marriages.

  • Even if he could be a friend he would be a narcissist friend. Do you want friends that lie and use you? Ever have a Narc friend? Not a friendship worth pursuing.

  • So glad he butt dialed you. Now you know the truth and don’t have to play the “what if” game. Xoxo sweet

  • Why would you want to be a friend who could not be loyal and honest when you were engaged? Stay no contact. He only wants you to be sitting and waiting for kibbles. You are better off without a lying POS in your life.

    • Sounds like she’s never gone “no contact” yet. They’ve been texting, which means he still has access.

      Shocked, unless you share kids with this idiot, block his number. NC means the jackass has no way to reach you. They are completely purged from your life, like the demon in The Exorcist.

      • Sounds like she never reached ‘meh’. I would have blocked that jerk’s number immediately. A boyfriend? No kids? Why even have his number in her contacts list? The only reason I still have my ex’s phone number in my cell is because we have children together. In an emergency, I do know that the dick will call me (out of the ‘goodness of his heart’…) I would call him because he is the father of my children and as a parent, even a dick-parent, one would want to know immediately if one’s child was in danger. This being a previously-run column, maybe she has figured it out by now. Maybe she values herself by now. I know I do. I’m worth so, so much more than I ever valued myself before. But it has been 4 years since my D-day, lots of counseling, no contact, and I KNOW the dick did me a favor when I found out he was back with his skank. At the time I didn’t, but 4 years later, life is good without the dick. I’d rather be single than ever go back to his type of shenanigans again… with anybody!

        • Sounds like she never reached ‘meh’. I would have blocked that jerk’s number immediately. A boyfriend? No kids? Why even have his number in her contacts list?

          I did this with SO many horrible exes. My picker was super fucked up. Therapy helped me recover from the repeated trauma and develop things like boundaries and self-respect. Leaving doors open for bad exes is another form of Hopium and the Pick Me Dance. Once someone betrays you, that should be the end for you. Any further engagement with these freaks is kibble for them and continued disrespect for you.

          In my experience, sadly, this realization takes time for many chumps. It’s hard to let go. It’s harder to look back now and realize how much more time I flushed down the toilet with continued contact. Chump me once, shame on you. Further contact after that is just me chumping myself. I’ve had to work hard to forgive myself for that. It’s an ongoing process.

          On the plus side, it’s very difficult to fool me these days. I don’t tolerate bad behavior, and my standards for all my relationships are high.

        • Geeze Amazon… I’ve been on this site since 2014 (I believe it was truly 2013, nearly when CL started) and I’ve watched this site grow . I am truly happy to see Chumps now on this site of all genders, sexual orientation, identification, etc. Not married, married, with kids, without kids, chumped for a few months or a lifetime. We earned our Chump badges from an intimate relationship, a “friend”, family member, or all of the above. Bottom line: A Chump is a Chump – we all belong. And there is no fast track to”meh” and NC (for example, because one was not married with kids) – our healing is a personal journey.

          • Thanks, SeeingRed. I was engaged to my ex for almost 7 years (we never married, thankfully!). He has kids who I feel are my step kids. Four months ago, I found out about his affair with a married employee and immediately told him needed to move out. He and his daughter moved out a month later. It was two months after I discovered the affair that I went NC and yes, his number is in my contacts even though he is blocked.

            Healing is definitely a personal journey. I took the NC steps as I was ready, the blocking didn’t happen across the board, all at once; but they did take place. I’ve been NC for two months now and it feels great : )

    • Yep! I’m now 100% convinced my ex got fired from his job way back in 2001 for having an affair with a subordinate. All the signs were there that he was having an affair (I was pregnant at the time and was so depressed the entire pregnancy because he was acting so mean, distant and cold). He got fired about a month after our daughter was born. He said he was fired because they were “restructuring the office”. He was cold and stoic to me when he got home after being fired. The next day I caught him on the phone crying tears and sobbing to ho-worker about being fired. I no longer believe his bs story. He was fxcking her and I have no doubt she was another one of his “soul mates”. I will always regret not hiring a PI during that time as my gut was telling me he was having an affair.

    • Some of them have no shame. My last boyfriend (executive) jumped in bed with his work subordinate before my stuff was out of his house. She and he still work together and now live together (probably married now). At least third executive-subordinate relationship in his small company.

    • I caught mine having an affair with his married employee and immediately told him to get the F out. The AP filed for divorce one week before my ex moved out of my house. They’re still together, and I assume will be moving in together once her divorce is final. All I know is, my past is her future. She deserves him.

    • They like to feel superior. How better to achieve this than by fucking a subwhoredinate. Mine did the same. Sleeping with his protégée, mentee, and subordinate.

  • Nope, nopity, no.
    You cannot be friends with a person like this, ever. They will suck you dry and leave your carcass out for the buzzards and vultures.
    For me, being “friends” with exh2 would feel like a Pez dispenser of narcissism-hopium. Nope. Not interested. If he wanted to be friends, he should never have cheated, lied, assassinated my character and reputation, stole from me, embarrassed me, humiliated me, etc.
    Break away and don’t look back.

  • During my Marta policing I received a butt dual from my sync. Heard him say after whore asked him “ how’s it at home “ then her laughing. His response “ Oh she complains & whines” ( me) Then I heard him say something like , “put your chest here” giggle. I was sick to my stomach but he of course denied it.
    Sad part I tried to play call back for him to hear it but
    because I was trembling.. I accidentally erased it.

    One terrible memory out of hundreds.😢

  • Agree with Chump Lady on all the points she made.
    But, based on unfortunate experience, maybe HE didn’t accidentally butt dial you, Shocked and Confused. It could be the subordinate deliberately dialed you so you could hear them together after she saw his texts to you. She was “marking her territory” by letting you hear the laughter, giggles and declarations of love.
    Never underestimate the disorder of cheaters AND the ones they cheat with. No behavior is too low to sink to. And they don’t care if it hurts someone else. On the contrary, the pain of others just shows them how special and powerful they are.

  • Reading this, all I saw was a blinking neon sign reading “I was in the hospital! Ask me why! Ask me why! Ask me why! Feel sorry for me! I’m important!”

    Don’t bite the hook, Friends.

    • Yes, ex narcopath also used the “I got in an accident and really need to hear your voice” hoover.

      I fell for it, then felt stupid afterwards because he was fine, and it was just another example of why he should not be in my life.

      He was drinking with his one “friend” that I absolutely detested. They decided to go atving in the dark, drunk, and ex ditched the ATV after hitting a soft spot on the shoulder of the road. The ditch was deep, so he went flying over the handle bars and almost hit a tree, losing his sandals in the process.

      Looking back on it, the best part of the story for me, is that his “friend” left him like that and raced away on his own ATV and ex narcopath had to walk all they way back to friends house alone in the dark. “Friend” was afraid someone would drive by and see the accident and call the cops and they would get arrested for drunk driving. Even after that, ex was baffled why I didn’t like that guy.

      They can have each other.

  • Whenever ex narcopath and I would breakup, due to his abusive outrageous behaviour, one of his very special snowflake hoovering tactics was the “let’s be friends” scenario.

    It would go something like this:

    Me: I am done with you. You treat me horribly. This is over.

    Him: cue the: tears, the snot, the promises of good behaviour. He. Will. Change. Because. He. Loves. Me. So. Much.
    For about 2 weeks. Then silence.

    Me: Silence? What? What is he doing? (Praying that he will change and come back a new man…)

    Him: sends a random “how are you?” text along with the “fine, you don’t want to talk to me, so I guess I’m “moving on”.. (all the while joining every online dating forum)

    Me: Wait. What? Moving on? You said you were going to change because you love me. What is this moving on you speak of?

    Him: oh, that. Well, I met someone. It’s fresh, and she’s not you, but I just figured it’s time to move on and be happy. But I really miss you and want you in my life. Can we be friends?

    Me: !!!!****????? You’ve met someone in 2 weeks! after you spent all that time begging me for another chance? No. I don’t think I want to be friends and hear all about your new girlfriend and I dont think she would like that either.
    You run along now, I’m sure she’s waiting for you….

    Him: !!!!!!******????? What? Wait. But I still love you! I only met her cause you broke up with me! I ended things with her last night. Why? Because she is not you. Nothing happened with her.
    Please be friends. We can rebuild. We can have a fresh start…..please?

    Me: no. (then a few weeks, after more begging and bullshit, I go back. DONT BE ME!)

    Ex narcopath used the lure of friendship as a weapon. See? You don’t dance pretty then this is how fast your status in my life can go from loving partner to friend.

    And he has no other friends then the couple he had a past threesome with and they are drunks with zero morals….that should have told me everything I need to know right there.

    And if you add up the sum total of what it takes to even be a friend to someone, ex is the shittiest shit that ever shited.

    My standards are much, much higher now, and my apologies, but I am feeling slightly sweary today about this topic….

  • You’re “shocked” and “confused”? About what? His capacity for cheating and manipulation? Why does this jackass still have access to you via text?

    If you are done with someone who has cheated on you, and there are no kids involved, time to block the person on text and phone. There’s no reason for this man to have instant access to you. The fact that he does have text access suggests that you prefer him to have this access. You choose to be confused. You can choose otherwise.

  • Wow, i got the “Im in an ambulance, I dont have long to live.” text from my ex narc too. How funny. I did not respond to him yet amazingly he is still alive hahahah

    More odd to read about a butt dial the morning after having a dream that this happened to me…weird.

    These people are all the same. Pick the fish scum, it will be a better friend.

    • Not a cheater but still an ex with high sense of entitlement.

      Phoned me at 3am (!) after 7 ys of my no contact. After he woke me up but I didn’t answer he texted something like – Respond! Urgent!!!

      I wanted to text back – if it’s criminal urgency call the police if medical go to A&E. But then I just turned around and fell asleep again.

      Guess what, he’s still alive and kicking as well! I know because two weeks later he phoned me from unknown number. I just put down the phone. The old Persephone would feel the need to be decent, the new one doesn’t.

      • I got a text about 4 months ago at 4 a.m. on a work day asking me for a recipe for pate!!!! I hadn’t thought it necessary to block him because he would call on the house phone in any case. Twat!

  • Shocked and Confused,

    Two words: NO CONTACT

    Block his number. Erase him from your life. He’s a cheater and a liar. If you keep people in your life, who lie and disrespect you, you want have room in your life for people who will treat you well. This applies to romantic partners and friends.

  • Dear Shocked and confused, you are so blessed to have this happen to you. I wish this happened to me before I married my cheater, invested 20 years with her, spent my life savings on the divorce, and suffered long bouts of depression with the gaslighting she did to me over the decades. I’m healed now and have moved on. But for you to find out before having major lifetime investments together truly is blessing from God, saying he is not the right man for you. There are plenty of loyal men like me who wouldn’t take you for granted. Onward sister!

    • Dd61999, I couldn’t agree more with you! My story is very close to yours. 20 years invested in a marriage with someone who was lying and cheating on me even when we were dating. And I too suffered from depression on and off throughout our marriage from the gaslighting. I can now look back and see that God was trying to get my attention way back in 1992, but I believed the cheaters lies instead. I so wanted to believe he really was the nice that I first met. Live and learn!

      • I had SO many opportunities to make a clean break and didn’t. When I finally couldn’t take any more it was a total nightmare mess. Hindsight eh?

      • Thanks to all posters who advise us to not give love, energy, time, money to those who repeatedly lie to us and disrespect us. I am often tempted to try to go back to last boyfriend/friend, trying to be friends again, although my gut tells me that true friends don’t repeatedly make up stories, gaslight, insult you…I probably want to initiate contact with him because I feel partly at fault for not being perfect for him (crying too much about life (not him) during crises and begging him back), partly due to feeling lonely (especially as kids are gone on holiday with ex-husband).

        • Rockstarwife, from time to time I am tempted to want her back too. After all, I spent 20 years with her and made a family together. Then I quickly realize not just all the shitty things she did to me, but the kids too. Since I went no contact she stop blaming me but is now trying to manipulate, blame, and gaslight the kids. Which is truly sickening. I thank God everyday I have custody of them so they can build a somewhat normal life. In addition I just started meeting new people, with everything I learned, when I see red flags I move on to better quality people. I’m not perfect, but I Take responsibility for my shortcomings and I am loyal to a fault

  • POP butt dialed me from the town bike’s hovel. I managed to record 54 minutes of their conversation, including her apparently maintaining control of his wine and parcelling it out like it was his good boy sippy cup.

    This call came during the midst of his being absent from my home for several days, having told me he was going to Houston to visit his Marine son who was on leave. Nope, he was actually only 12 miles away—I knew this because I had scoped out her tacky home and had seen my vehicle parked a distance from it. I had wanted to ‘steal’ it and bring it home but my friend was too chicken to help me (??!!!?)

    Anyway, during their conversation she inquired ‘what about HATC?’ and he responded ‘who gives a fuck? I don’t care about her’. My shock registered not at his sentiment but at his use of the phrase ‘give a fuck’–I had NEVER heard him talk that way. She eventually looked down and saw his phone was connected to mine and it was hung up.

    About 30 minutes later I received a call from her doing damage control. It was amazing how she assumed I was as stupid as she is and thought that I would buy what she was attempting to sell.

    • I’ll never get how anyone goes out of their way to intentionally harm another, especially a loyal spouse.

      I didn’t get a butt call, mine was an attempt to erase a pathetic voice mail I left on his phone after Dday. I had his passcode; I set it up.
      When listening to the message it was Nanthony asking him about his whereabouts in an accusatory manner. Granted I had filled her in in the many OW, the cycles of his cheating as well as the excuses he used. As if she didn’t already know seeing as he bragged that he was married and she didn’t care. At the end of the message she requested he come home so she could wrap her arms around him. The ending was he manly voice saying FUCK ME, FUCK ME.

      A week or so later he had to pick me up to borrow my daughters car. The ride was one of rage stating what I owed him. I ignored, saying speak to my attorney. After I got my daughters keys I said, FUCK ME three times in a mans voice. The look on his face was priceless. Let’s just say that not only is he stuck with it, she’s cheating.

  • This man not only steals your love and shits on it, he encourages you to lower your standards. He wants you to be confused and befuddled because it suits him. Today it’s your love, tomorrow it’s your money.

    He’s Toxoplasmosis gondii to your Mus musculus. Don’t be the host!

    Toxoplasma gondii is known to remove rodents’ innate fear of cats. The new research shows that even months after infection, when parasites are no longer detectable, the effect remains. This raises the possibility that the microbe causes a permanent structural change in the brain.

    This is thought to be an evolutionary adaptation to help the parasite complete its life cycle: Toxoplasma can sexually reproduce only in the cat gut, and for it to get there, the pathogen’s rodent host must be eaten.

  • Dear Shocked,
    Depending on how big of a mindfucker he is, he might not have *accidentally* butt-dialed you. Some are such sick fucks they want you to know you’re not the only one. It could have been his punitive passive-aggressive way of saying, “You dumped me for cheating? Let me show you where you really rank with me. I’ll pretend to be repentant and then ‘accidentally’ let you know I’m really laughing up my sleeve at you.”

    So sorry you are going through this. I agree with ChumpLady — you can do better with other friends. Don’t keep pouring good heart down the drain with this one.

  • Without a doubt, the holidays are a hard time to enforce boundaries. We all get a little wistful and melancholy thinking of the ghosts of Christmas past and Christmas miracles. AND PREDATORS KNOW THIS.

    He wasn’t lonely for you, he was lonely for himself. Most personality disordered people need a constant mirror (metaphorically) to feel ANYTHING… negative or positive validation that they exist. They are, at their core, attention seeking whores.

    Hear me out… I admire Charles Manson more than Mr.Sparkles (my x-husband and father’s son.) WHY? Well, the way my chump brain sees it now they are both men with POTENTIONAL (and both crazy fuckwits)… the difference is that CM is honest and says “don’t let me out of jail or I’ll do it again) whereas Mr. Sparkles is celebrating the holidays with the new GF who co-signed his mortgage after 18 months of dating while keeping his Ashley Madison account current with his daily changing work location… and says to me “I’m sorry I hurt you and the kids.”

    See the difference?

    Go no contact. You don’t need a psychopath for a friend or husband.

  • Weird tangent:

    4 Months is likely not near-long enough to be at “meh”.

    Its funny because, I’ve been thinking about “Meh” lately… how far I am from it.
    I have longer spans in-between rough patches, but I’m not at “Meh” yet.

    Soon after finding CL&CN, I would have moments where I’d believe I was getting there. Maybe its the holidays and not seeing the kids, but I’m not there, just more along the journey.

    I’m wondering if a sign of coming into a state of “Meh” is not thinking about visiting this site.

    Dunno… just saw “4-months” and thought; “you’re a long way from Meh”….

    • Tall One, four months isn’t very long at all. I’m out 4ish years out since Dday and 2ish divorced. It’s been a long, hard battle out after being with a pathological liar and serial cheater for 23 years. I’m “meh-ish”. Not meh, but that’s okay. I’ll get there one day. The holidays are/can be tough, so give yourself a break and don’t worry about not being at meh. I personally read CL every time she posts and read as much of CN as I have time for that day. For me, CL and CN has been a big part of the reprogramming of my mind (the cheater and his fly monkeys had my brain scrambled like eggs after the brutal discard), so I don’t look coming her as being stuck in the past or anything. Who knows if I’ll read this blog for as long as CL writes! I just might, as I enjoy a good laugh each day and CL delivers!!!

    • I hear you, Tall One.
      Maybe it’s not linear.
      Yesterday was pretty rough.
      Today feels a little less emotionally murky.
      The magic of No Contact seems to be
      working, even when I want to defy it. I just don’t.
      So much of this seems to be basic self-harm tactics, dressed up as something else, involving someone else.
      These days I spend less time hurting myself in the name of “helping” others, “loving” others.
      Meh may be a day without harm. At least, less of it…

    • Tall One, I think the term “meh” is relative. I got the shaft from my fiancee 5 decades ago, but I recovered within a few months and went on to have a normal happy existance with strictly NC enforced, but occasionally I look back and pine away for the wonderful days I had with the girl I thought she was. I still have dreams about her from time to time, and still wonder why she hooked up with random dudes at her university even after she promised marriage to me. Never got an answer for it and it will always blow my mind trying to “unravel the skein of fuckupedness”. That’s one reason I follow this blog, BTW. It left a scar, but it’s not life threatening, and I will get on with my life w/o too much emotional pain after all these years. Still, I wonder how I could have missed her lack of character….maybe it was the lovebombing, I dunno. Looking forward to Tuesday (Jan 1st, 2019).

  • I understand the sentiments of this poster, as my ex tried to make me the OW after I moved out and started divorce process, (which took over 2 years.) We share a kid, so the whole “friends” thing seemed like a good idea. Then I realized that his OW turned live-in g.f. probably was not aware of our dinner and pool dates we conducted during kid swap, or the many “I miss you” texts.
    As good as it somewhat felt knowing he wasn’t being faithful to her, I decided I was better than her amd all that, because I was not going to play side-piece and partake in the dishonesty, in someone else’s relationship, even though we were still married. Your stong morals will save you from furthur heartbreak and suffering. Let that shit go for your own healing! Stay strong with your no-contact. Confide in your best friend and write them all the things you want to say to your ex. You will heal and wonder why you ever put up with that bullshit.

  • In 2010 the Limited informed me he found someone and wanted a divorce when I called to see what he wanted to do on the weekend.

    Phone records indicated he’d been dating three women. Sharon was the lucky winner who believed she’d found her knight in shining armor.

    After finding her business card in his car I forwarded the texts he sent to me professing his love for me to her while he was sleeping.

    That ended the relationship with Sharon who was an innocent victim. Unfortunately, I ruined it for him and won the pick me humiliation dance.

    Along came Nanthony three years later. After meeting the disordered classless slunt I had enough. It was a perfect drop off point.

    Within weeks I went on medication for depression, found a therapist who understood trauma bonding, and a kickass attorney know for defending abused women and children. Then I found CL. The stars were in alignment.

    Meh is a hard fought journey. After investing 41 years of my life with a covert narcissist I educated myself on the three phases of a narcissistic relationship. I lived through multiple pick me dances.

    He took great joy in telling me how other women kissed him cause you know he was in great demand.

    My son told me that I get to write the last chapter. I am. It doesn’t involve abuse.

    The Limited? He moved #19 to his trolling ground where Miss 2010 and the woman he fathered two women with early in our marriage reside.

    They do not change. The game is rigged. What I take pride in is getting out. It requires putting your needs first, knowing your dealbreakers, and facing your fears.

    • I wish that I could take pride in kicking out disrespectful liars and then going No Contact after they start hovering, but I cannot as my partners discarded me (and sadly I still want some of them, especially last one, back). They wouldn’t care if I went No Contact. How do you feel pride if you are the one who is (virtually always) discarded, you deeply loved the discarding partner, and you are not feeling mighty or even capable of mighty in any facet of life (romance, parenting, career, hobbies, etc.)?

      • I read in Psychopath Free that to be discarded is actually a compliment. The narc is aware you’ve seen behind their mask too many times, and you’re about to figure them out. Therefore, they have to start the smear campaign and discard you before you can reveal the truth about them.

        • Hi Sisu,
          Thanks for writing.
          The last day I saw my last boyfriend, when he made up some story without provocation, I told him that I knew he was lying to me. He tried to cover up the lie with more lies, then called his lying ‘a mistake.’ He got mad at me for calmly telling him that I knew he was lying. He might have wanted to ‘get rid of me’ to get rid of a witness to his propensity to lie.

          • Once you pull the curtain away from the Wizard, and reveal them to be a mere mortal without super moral powers, they discard you. Ask me how I know.

            • Tempest,
              I imagine that the vast majority of liars/abusers don’t like being ‘found out.’ What might their families, friends and fans then think?
              It helps to take these not wonderful mere mortals off their pedestals on which some of us put them.

      • Further to what Sisu wrote, you’re mighty by not writing pleading emails and begging phone calls to your exs but keeping silent. It’s normal to sometimes want them back, just chop off your hands if you feel like contacting them. 🙂 And you’re still standing so you’re already mighty.

        • Hi Persephone,

          Thanks for your support. Shortly after last discard, my last boyfriend blocked me on phone, email, social media, and has moved a few miles down the road. so he would not know whether or not I tried to contact him. I feel as though my agency has been taken from me. It hurts in a way as he seemed to be virtually everyone’s friend (Mr. Nice Guy who helps little old ladies across the street).

  • Second round of recovering from chumpdom is to Only Maintain Friends with the Same Level of Integrity as You. There are some former friends you may need to keep as acquaintances or professional contacts, or second/third tier friends, but a cheater is not typically one of them.

    • Totally. Second best thing I ever did.

      Real friends are worth their weight in gold. I am never going back to cheap sparkles.

  • ***I stupidly got my hopes up for the possibility of a friendship, then a couple hours without a response later, he butt-dials me from the OW’s apartment.***

    Quite often, these maneuvers are intended.

  • A funny discussion on this blog would be:

    Texts that were sent to you instead of the AP
    What a fucking riot
    I looked across the room when I received it and there he was texting
    Loser

  • “So stop being confused and dump this loser for once and for all.”

    ^^^ Thanks, Tracy. I needed this today. With the holidays, I’m feeling nostalgic and missing the bliss of the family I lost. Despite me not even liking my wife and preparing to move forward, it’s painful to accept I’m headed to divorce. It’s so hard to break free from a cheater. It’s amazing how a few drama-free days will screw with your head.

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