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Dear Chump Lady, Was I THAT bad?

Hi Chump Lady,

I’m a chump, my ex-wife cheated on me with a man twice her age, 59, and then left me and moved in with him after I found out. We both have decent jobs, had the house of our dreams and neither of us wanted kids, so we had plenty of freedom. The man she left me for is on disability, and works part-time where she works, is overweight and penniless.

So my question is, could I really have been that bad of a husband she would downgrade to the bottom of the barrel?

I admit my faults, I have my own demons that I am revealing through therapy, I’m booked for the next year every week, in fact. But I feel like as a married couple you fight the demons your spouse has together, not abandon him for an old ugly fat and poor dick fuck.

Please help me get the thought that maybe I deserve to be a chump out of my head.


Ultimate Chump

Dear Ultimate Chump,

No one deserves to be a chump. And this idea that there are deserving and undeserving chumps — those that Drove Them To It and those who had a Bad Thing inflicted on them — is what makes the whole infidelity discourse fucked in the head.

We don’t compel people to abuse us.

Deceit is not a problem-solving relationship tool.

And yes, I’m saying cheating is abuse. It’s risking your health, it’s emotional abuse and mindfuckery, there are opportunity costs (wasted years), financial costs… it’s the theft of your reality.

Everyone (and I’m talking to you shrinks too!) needs to drop the Deserving/Undeserving Chump dichotomy. Oh well, you weren’t meeting her needs. Oh, you didn’t lose the baby fat. Oh, you were too invested in your career/children/Pokemon cards… DESERVING! Oh, you were with a cunning Lothario/ruthless Delilah. Poor boo. UNDESERVING!

Do you see what this does? It puts every chump on the defensive. Cataloging their faults, weighing which ones were powerful enough to make people betray us, and which were more benign. The emphasis is on proving our worthiness to NOT BE ABUSED. Whose character is not being examined? Who’s rights are unquestioned? The abuser’s.

Well, maybe if you hadn’t said that, I wouldn’t have hit you.

We don’t tolerate that shit any more. Why do we tolerate it in situations that could result in default judgements and paternity tests? STDs or broken homes?

Things fall apart. I get it. Relationships fail. And people suck — including chumps. Heck, UC, you might suck. I don’t know if your battery of therapy appointments is merited or if you’re better off spending that money on a self-help book and a trip to Cancun.

My point is — there are ethical ways to end things. To address problems. To treat the people we purport to love.

Let’s say you’re just Nebulously Awful. There’s therapy, difficult conversations, divorce lawyers. Did she do those things? Or did she express her unhappiness by screwing the mailroom guy?

Or let’s say you’re Truly Awful. You’re dangerous. You’re an addict. You’re harming innocents. She must leave. Okay, then it’s no contact, divorce lawyers and reports to authorities. Why would Grandpa Disability be in the picture? Why would your marriage only end after you found out?

It’s not a bad thing to examine your faults. But your faults, real or imagined, didn’t make her cheat with Dick Van Wrinkle. Those choices are on HER. She let you invest in her, extracted value from that relationship, and let you believe you were safe, until you discovered you weren’t.

She owns all those decisions. Her shitty life skills are not a reflection of you. Neither is Part-Time Fat Fuck.

Yeah, yeah, Tracy. Trust That They Suck. We’ve heard it before.

Internalize it. Every chump has the nagging thought: What if I suck? How do I trust it wasn’t ME?

Did you wake up under the fetid breath of the unwashed disability dude? Did you cheat? Or did you love with your whole heart and get played?

Did you respond to this crisis with mindfuckery? Or did you book a year’s worth of therapy appointments?

Did you try? Or did you abandon?

Seems to me your humanity is pretty intact, UC. I don’t have a big sample to go on, but it appears your reactions to adversity are admirable. I bet you’re a pretty good guy, and she’s an idiot.

Maybe she’s better suited to Penniless I Fuck Other Men’s Wives Guy. Maybe because you’re NOT that guy, you’re a bad fit for her, a “bad husband.” Thank the sweet Lord baby Jesus, right?

You didn’t deserve to be chumped, UC. You deserve a better life. And you’re getting one.

(Her? Not so much.)

Ask Chump Lady

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  • What you are feeling is normal. I too had thoughts that I must of been a horrible wife. Otherwise I would not have been cheated on. My STBX cheated with my cousin who is under 5 feet and weighs 170 lbs. I had a much better job than her. My STBX cheated because he wanted to. And he found a willing person to cheat with. No one is perfect. You did not deserve to be cheated on. Let your STBX have the loser. That is her choice. They deserve each other.

        • He chased strange when my health took a dive and I literally couldn’t hold a cup (never mind anything he asked me to hold..)

          Steroids so not do any favours to your waistline, and apparently that was one of the reasons he cheated as I wasn’t as desirable and his size 8 OW.

          He would have cheated on someone double my size of they stroked his ego enough (among other things).

          • Your last sentence is the key one. It does not matter what they (affair partners)look like or what you (chump) look like. Because a cheater never SEES any of his partners. All he/she sees is their own reflection in the partner’s eyes. Decent people get to know you, and if you are good, you grow more and more beautiful to them. The opposite is also true. When you unmask a cheater, they know you see how ugly they really are and then they have to leave for their AP because that person still sees the romanticized vision.

            • That is it EXACTLY!!! My STBX cheated on me with his howorker and I had to catch him with proof for him to admit everything, he gaslighted me for MONTHS when I accused him exactly of what he was doing. After I found the whole truth and took his mask off, he changed completely, got very cold with me and no longer tried to be the “nice” guy he portrayed. He puts all that energy into his new much younger woman, since she stills buys his bullshit.

            • Just curious because I’ve heard this happening many times – Did any of you experience your ex leaving you for a dog-faced, ugly person? Mine left me for a manly woman who looks like a horse! I honestly don’t know how he can have sex with her! Is there some reason that men do this?

              • There are some guys who would tuck a privet hedge if it looked remotely like a woman Google Sheffield militarist disgusted by drunk hedge sex

              • Renee….same here. Older, also married, w/ 2 kids, ho-worker that is a very unattractive version of me(per others, not just me) and apparently a very flirty & loose woman. He admitted it was how she made him feel because she’s the ugly one in the relationship and lower job position, so he gets to be the pretty one and superior. I was the breadwinner in our family with better morals… I guess, as he says “you’re just too good for me and you didn’t have enough time to be my cheerleader” “I’m tired of people thinking I got lucky when I married you” Awweeee…..he’s got a sad and it’s my fault that he had to cheat with a ugly, old coworker. Now poor sad sausage is a step-dad to two teenage boys and under the scrutiny at the office of his not-so busy ho-worker.
                We are all so much better off without these idiots. They are toxic, insecure, self-absorbed heinous beings…that were undermining your relationship and deceiving you on the daily……’s painful, but be happy to be rid of them. God knows they aren’t happy humans.

          • SoManyTuesdays, you are so right, he would’ve cheated regardless of your waistline. He’s the turd, not you. Besides, who wants to be in a relationship that’s measured by waistlines? I’m fat, but that has nothing to do with how I treat or love someone. My X was 5 ft 8 and 354 lbs, I loved him then and never once desired or chased after someone else. I remained faithful to him through all his weight induced health crises. He then opted for weight loss surgery, again I stiff by him nursed him through it and the 100 lbs he lost only for him to have an affair with his married employee. Cheaters. Are. Turds. Excess weight doesn’t make you a turd, cheating however does.

            • i get the point ladies, i really do know its nothing personal. Some days your legs tend to wobble a bit regardless of how far from dday you are. today is one of my fat, ugly, trembling lip days. i would probably burst out crying if someone bumped into me in the street, today.

          • SMT, my heart hurts for you. He’s a fucking asshole jitbag motherfucker. OW is a color-form. He doesn’t see you, never did, never will. That being said, YOU determine your worth, not some crappy cheater.

      • SoManyTuesdays, don’t take the previous comment seriously. When we are chumped, sometimes we pick a characteristic of the OW/OM and blame that as a way of feeling better with ourselves. It is not rational, but it alleviates our lack of self-esteem which is the consequence of being cheated and abused.

        For instance, I cannot stand hearing, talking, knowing anything or anybody from Portugal (he cheated while on a lads stag do on Lisbon).
        After I found out, I have promised myself I will never put my feet in that country, despite that my nan is half Portuguese. I simply hate that country now and its people now. It is irrational, it is like hating a part of me, but for now, it alleviates the anger I have within me.

        Cuzchump probably didn’t want to hurt you, perhaps she was trying to feel better about herself and the circumstances of the horrible experience her cousin and her ex put her through.

        Being under 5ft tall and 170lb is nothing to worry or be shamed about… We all have self-esteem issues after been cheated on and working on overcome them, by changing them or embracing them is our duty. As Chump Lady says, we need to gain a life. None of our physical characteristics had nothing to do with the betrayal we have suffered.
        We are worthy and amazing.

        Sending love and strength for loving yourself. I am sure you are an amazing human-being and you deserve to love yourself (and so do I).

        • This!^^^ I am very petite. My first cheater’s AP was very tall and thin. For years I had a visceral reaction to tall , thin, women, especially if they were flirtatious with my date etc. I knew very well intellectually that it had nothing to do with how things were. It is just so hurtful to us sometimes that our mate chooses someone so OPPOSITE us–as if they cannot get away from us fast enough and as if everything about us is WRONG. My second cheater liked bodybuilding prostitutes. They literally looked like men. I could not be further from this. It just hurts that their rejection seems so complete–that the person doesn’t have any single trait like you it makes it feel like there was NOTHING about you they could stand. Don’t get hung up on this stuff.

          • Here is one:

            My X moved far away after I threw him out for having a bizarre secret life. I later found out he had been seeing a woman there for about a year… she is supposedly a lovely woman, I believe she had no idea I even existed, but is old enough to be my mother!! She is a chump in the making if she lives much longer. They married right after the divorce was final.

            That is a little weird. Old enough to be my mother?

        • SanChump, you will most likely get over your aversion to all things Portugal/Portuguese one day.
          After finding out about Mr. Magoo’s 10 year “marriage” to our skanky neighbor, I was triggered by black people for a short period of time because she happened to be black. I hated myself for that, as I had never been a racist person.
          I think we pick out one or two PHYSICAL aspects of the APs to focus on, when there is absolutely nothing about their physical attributes that led to the cheating.
          Bad character can’t be seen at a glance, like size, gender, race, hair color, etc. This whole experience has taught me a lot, one of the most important things it taught me was never to judge anyone by anything but their actions.
          I hope you are able to reclaim that Portuguese part of your heritage soon.

          • CL wrote about taking back Paris, once. I took her words to heart, and took back Scotland, though still can’t bear the word “France”. I seriously doubt I will ever be able to go there again.

        • San Chump, thank you for expressing this so well. My CXH cheated with a woman who is a gym rat blonde, very physically fit, but has a very manly face with a big ol’ nose, not attractive at all. I too have a visceral reaction to unattractive blonde women with a good body. I know it is not rational, and I try to overcome this reaction, but it happens before I even realize it is happening. I also struggle with the US east coast in general, because this where the OW is from and where my CXH was flying to cheat on me. Of course there are many wonderful people on the east coast lol, but my brain is still triggered by these things. So sad the damage a chump has to overcome and heal from just because a couple of selfish fuckwits feel entitled to cheat. They will never know or care how deep this stuff runs. I guess rather than physical attributes, it is important to focus on the fact that CXH and OW have black souls, and no amount of time spent at the gym can pretty that up. I try to temper these visceral things in the meantime with things I am grateful for, basically counting my blessings, while I heal, but Christ on Cracker it is so much sometimes…I HATE cheaters and their accomplices blech…

          • jojobee, ex’s AP is a female triathlete, is an attorney and college professor. His other AP, now wife is a fitness competitor and school counselor.
            I was a stay at home Mom, moving from state to state to advance cheaters career.
            My degree is worthless which is how I sometimes feel.

            Cheater is from the east coast as soon as someone mentions going back east or I hear they are from the east coast I had to fight my feelings of contempt. I remind myself that Cheater and his family aren’t a good representation of people form the east coast.
            Which I learned first hand when my Dad fell at JFK, there were so many helpful and kind people, employees that went out of there way to help us. Some had just gotten off work and still stopped to help.

        • Exactly. I have an irrational aversion to chunky short Columbian women 5 years older than me. In my mind: All whores!
          Is that rational or fair or decent? No. But it’s where I’m at right now, and maybe it will lessen in time.

          • I get it. I have a hard time with tall women because ex left me for a tall Schmoopie. This doesn’t even make sense because Schmoopie 1.0 was short but he didn’t leave me for that one (and it was well over before I found out about her) so no aversion to short women. Of course it probably doesn’t help that before I knew she was fucking my husband, she was going on about how proud she was of her height and commenting on my shortness (I am pretty average height really), so that particular trait of hers tends to stick in my craw. Ex, of course, is also tall so that could be another thing that they think makes her a better fit for him. Grr.

          • Mine is the country of Sweden and chunky women. Whore is way bigger and a little shorter than I am and lives there. Size is ONLY because Fredo used to always ALWAYS make fun of and disparage larger women whereas I would always end up saying whoever it was he was talking about was beautiful, had amazing skin, gorgeous smile, engaging laugh etc. So I KNOW women of all shapes and sizes are spectacular. However, I do hate Sweden and one of the major cities in particular–Fredo claims everyone there is accepting of affairs and divorce is no biggie. My son tells me im a little irrational about it; I can’t argue with him and am kind of ashamed of the way I’m demonizing a whole city.

            • My XW had multiple affairs with Mexican men. I had (for a little while) hatred of all Mexican men. And I teach people to overcome racism. I had to teach myself that not all of them are cheaters.

            • That is absolute 100% fucking horseshit – given that my long term partner is a native Swede and he despises people who cheat. Same with a couple of friends of mine who are the same nationality – they despise deceitful fuckwits too.

              Cheaters are fuckwits, regardless of where they are from. It doesn’t discriminate on nationality, nor any other character trait.

        • Attention whorely ‘fragile’ dumsels who play the victim and put themselves down so that others will build them up with compliments, as well as plaster themselves all over social media, especially posting generalised preaching (not really, highly targetted to passive aggressively call out the latest person that they’ve screwed over, but trying to make out that they’ve been victimised by, without naming names) that garners them attention but also reinforces in their mind their sense of grievance against anyone that gets in the way of them getting their way). Weirdly specific? I don’t think I’ve come across anyone else yet who’s quite as bad, but life is long, and perhaps I’ll stumble across another Cluster B weirdo who’s similar and realise right from the get-go what’s up.

          • Also, I get triggered by anyone (my cousin’s daughters fall into this category) on social media who is currently dating a man with very young children/babies to another woman, who calls out that women for her parent skills or interactions with the father. Honey, mind your own business and pray he doesn’t leave you in the same situation. He’s probably a bad catch. The OW in my case was willing to go there when my child was only a few months old, and had the balls to criticise my mothering skills. No, birch, no.

        • wowza; this is a REAL thing ~ I cannot bear the idea of Paris, Poland, Scotland or berlin!
          hahahaha I have to be amused. this too shall pass… not sure I can visit those cities/countries for a looooooong time, if ever.
          good thing there is a big world out there. and partially why I stopped “revealing” shit… I don’t want to ruin any more places, people or things for myself!
          life is short, but wide (j. California cooper)

      • Me too. I don’t like how shortness and plumpness is being used as disparagement, here. Being round doesn’t make us “less than.”

        • Don’t worry, I hate lanky women. There’s plenty of hatred to go around for all body types!

          The best thing to do in this situation is to remind ourselves of people we know and care about who have similar physical traits as the OW/OM. I’d never disparage my best friend for being tall, thin, and tattooed, so why dwell on it where the other woman is concerned? She’s utter trash regardless of what she looks like, so comparing myself to her is like comparing apples to rotten oranges.

        • I want to step in here. I in no way was trying to make this about weight, sex, height, or financial situations. I am sorry if I hurt somebody’s feelings. I understand that love comes in all shapes and sized. I was only trying to make clear my situation, I am 5′ 10″, with a muscular build, so the shock of what she left me for added another layer of shit to this sandwich.

          • There are some guys who would tuck a privet hedge if it looked remotely like a woman Google Sheffield militarist disgusted by drunk hedge sex

      • Please forgive me. I am short as well a 30 lbs over weight. My point was the cheater doesn’t care who they cheat with. As long as they have a willing partner. And looks do not matter. As long as they get the thrill of eating cake. As for my cousin she did not give a dam about hurting me. Still to today she calls me names. Weight doesn’t define who you are. Charater does.

      • So many Tuesdays. I apologize if I offended you. Trust me I am not a size 2. My cousin dress size doesn’t define her. Her lack of character does. It takes a special kind of person to cheat with their cousins husband.

        • Cuz Chump, i promise, i understand. that little insecure part of my being was feeling a little extra sensitive today. I know you werent comparing me to the OW. but sometimes when your ex has thrown a few insults at you, which you then see in print, it digs a little. your cousin just happens to be ugly because she is ugly inside

    • I want to make a point that I understand that looks, size ethnicity etc. Do not matter and I apologize if I hurt anyone’s feelings. I am 5′ 10″, muscular build, so it was just the extreme shift by her that hurt and confused the living fuck out of me.

      • Yes the extreme shift hurt and confused the living fuck out of me too. Im naturally blonde and blue eyed. STBX put me and our 10 year old daughter and 8 yr old son on a pedestal for it. His ho-worker is Chinese and 26, 15 years younger than me. He used to put down White Males of WMAF couples we knew. He promised her kids and permanent residency. He lied to my face for 2 years about it. As long as they have a willing partner. This OW wrote to me said said hes a free spirit a man then a father then a husband.

  • Hm, no kids, lots of freedom and she opts for a man that needs to be taken care of? Maybe she was looking to be in more of a “mother” role.

    Regardless, it’s not about you. Stop untangling the skein. Move on, be your best self!

    • It’s totally not about you. My Ex FOR YEARS purported to not want kids. I, as a woman, was always like “We should discuss this, because I have a window that’s going to close on my ability to have kids.” I was always on the fence, but was willing to let him lead the conversation. He always refused, saying kids are a hassle, kids are expensive, I DON”T WANT KIDS.

      OW? She wants a big family. After Ex told me he wanted a divorce (I still didn’t know about OW at this point, but suspected), I asked him, out of the blue, “Would you have kids if you meet someone new?”

      His response: “I would have kids…with the right person.”

      Trust that these people suck. It was never, ever about you or not having kids. Your ex is a selfish, emotionally abusive narcissist. Thank God that you didn’t have any kids together.

      • Same situation here. I’m now 48 with no children and I understand 38 year old OW/wifetress is expecting. It stung for a bit (I wasn’t good enough to be the mother of his children??), but I still believe XH never wanted kids. OW rules the roost – so maybe he didn’t decide. Who knows.

        I was spared co-parenting with a fuckwit – the OW can now try to raise a family with someone that is lazy and half-heartedly involved.

        • That’s how I feel about it too–I was spared sharing a child with a fuckwit. Bullet dodged. Hopefully the kids he raises with OW aren’t too screwed up by their parents–but that’s not my circus.

          • And that’s assuming he doesn’t already have kids.
            I have an 18&10 yr old with FW, and have discovered he also has at least 3 more kids. Apart from the little girl he had “ on a break”
            6 kids/5 mothers and counting.
            Ya just never know.

            • I feel sad that my last partner (boyfriend who I thought was friend for 30 years) left me for woman young enough to still have kids. She is in her late 30s, almost young enough to be my daughter. He lied to me about her age, claiming that she was only five years younger than him (he is nearly 50) instead of ten years younger than him. (I don’t understand why he lied about her age…Have some suspicions, but it doesn’t matter now.) He also used to tell me that, having reached his late forties, he no longer wanted to try to have kids. I bet that he has changed his mind to please his new partner if not him as well. He lied about so many things. I often regretted that I hadn’t dated him when we met in college and thus been able to give him a child. One of our mutual friends mentioned some months after last partner discarded me that she (friend) thought that he had a grown son! He told me that he didn’t have any kids. I will probably never know the truth.

              I feel sad about raising mostly alone my children with adulterous husband (now ex-husband), who I met many years after I left my last partner, who I realize now is what a lot of people would call a F–kboy, someone who thought of me as a worthless disposable toy, ego booster, dinner maker, and Plus One until the woman he really wanted for a life partner became available. Not sure if he was waiting until she, his work subordinate, broke up with a partner, or she joined the company just a few weeks/months before he discarded me. (He said that she had been at his very small company from the time he joined it, a few years earlier, but I neither saw her nor heard of her until he discarded me. A few weeks before the second discard, I had asked him if there was anyone else. He said, ‘No.’ I can’t help but suspect that he was lying to me–at least ‘bending’ the truth.) guess that I should be glad that I am away from the lying, but I don’t feel liberated and Oh So Much Better, the way a lot of chumps here say they do. (I wonder what is wrong with me.)

              I was triggered last night as a handsome, educated guy at work (contractor, not my co-worker, subordinate, nor boss) who seemed to have much in common with me that had ‘sort of’ asked me out promised twice to call but didn’t. Flush. I am feeling extremely fed up with men. I know that not all are bad or are flaky, but it seems as though all the officially available ones in my age range are jerks! Realizing that the latest Mr. Unavailable was not going to call, I fell asleep and dreamed a common dream–I go somewhere–another state to see my last partner, who I wanted to spend every moment of the rest of my life with, he is with a bunch of his friends/colleagues, he looks at me with a cold look paired with a stiff body that conveys, ‘Get away from me,’ and then I am at a beach, realizing that he, new partner, and his/my friends have already packed and left the beach, deserting me. Then I wake up and realize that my dream is virtually true. Both times he discarded me he told me out of the blue, ‘I want to run away from you.’ (He hid a lot.) 1.5 years out, apparently, I am still traumatized by the lies, insults, and invalidating, unloving, and unnecessary behavior on his part. I wasn’t perfect (as I was often sad and afraid due to traumatic events while I was with him), but I didn’t deserve that treatment. Trying not to be angry and wish that the Karma bus gets him, but sometimes it’s hard to think Zen loving thoughts or just feel indifferent, even though I have a thousand things to do, especially as I am about to become unemployed, and as a middle-aged ‘houseless’ divorced mother of fairly young kids who are not doing well–and scared about my family’s situation. (I cannot count on my abusive ex-husband, who took me to court for 16? hearings and will probably take me back again to eliminate support.)

              I hope that UC (and other chumps) don’t overly beat themselves up–as loving chumps tend to do.

              • Correction: my last partner pseudo-friend of 30 years, met me decades before I met my now ex-husband, and started dating me after my husband left.

        • Yes! I didn’t want kids until I met STBHX – he wanted them very badly and I came around to the idea (to the point of fantasizing about it). We were planning to start trying in Feb 2019. We had their names picked out!!
          Thank goodness for D-Day in Sept 2018. It was one hell of a blow but I consider it a favor.

          Now, I gag thinking that I could have been tied to him for life. At the same time – I question whether or not I actually want kids. Sometimes I think I do, but other times I wonder if I only wanted them because Creature sold me a dream that I bought hook, line & sinker.

          • I always wanted kids and X always had an excuse to wait. In 2012, I sat him down and said that if he really didn’t want kids– he went back and forth on the issue but when we got together he sold me (future faked me) a life of marriage and then kids (I was with him for 15 years and no marriage proposal and no kids).– then we were over. He agreed to start trying and that’s when the “you’re not the boss of me” came out full force. He withdrew from me emotionally and started coping with porn. Started getting ED. I couldn’t mention ANY struggle with fertility because it was too much for the man-baby to deal with and then he wouldn’t be able to perform.
            He left me unconscious 5 years after a surgery to try to get pregnant and I never recovered from the trauma. I told him I no longer wanted to have kids. He got what he wanted. The truth is he’s a competitive ASSHOLE and the child would have become a pawn in him trying to be better than me in the child’s life and I know for a fact he would have cheated when I was pregnant. He’s the epitome of passive-aggressive coward.
            I dumped him 3 weeks ago and I’m getting IVF ASAP with a sperm donor. Fuck him. It might not work as I’m already almost 44 and I’m OK with that but at least I tried. I know I’ll regret not trying when I’m 50.

            • Good luck to you. I hope it works out and your kid can get all of your attention without man baby demanding his share (more than his share really).

            • Best of luck!

              Also, I’m sorry it turned out that way but it sounds like destiny was looking out for you.

            • Thank you all!!
              I have like a minute of fertility left and I don’t want to waste it.
              I know the road is hard and people are going to think I’m crazy but I don’t care.

              Pray for me because I’m going to need all the help I can get, lol!!!!!

        • NK4U, same. Same age as well. XH married OW5, and I think they have a kid. Same rationale, you fucked up my desire to have kids, but now this dumb sloot is stuck parenting him & child. That dizzy bird can parent him & their offspring. As much as I wanted kids, I’m glad I didn’t have them with that fuckknob.

          • Totally agree Waffles!
            He acts so put upon to the most mundane, simple request I can’t even imagine the shitstorm a child would have thrust him into. I always say he drowns in a glass of water. Can’t handle ANYTHING. EVERYTHING is the end of the fucking world for him.
            SOOOOOOOOOOO fucking dramatic!!!!!! If I didn’t leave I was afraid my eyes were going to be permanently stuck looking up.

    • You think cheaters want to ‘mother’ anybody? They love the ‘I shall swoop in and save the day and look FABULOUS’ role, but they don’t actually mother (or white knight) anybody. ‘Cause that would require, you know,,, caring. (And that’s definitely untangling.)

      • Karen – I love that. It hit me that he just married his mother, after somebody mentioned it, and that’s the only sense it makes of him to remarry. And, because I know her so well, she is definitely NOT the motherly type and is cold to the touch. (she never looked me in the eye when talking) . Shifty.

  • Dick Van Wrinkle! ???????????? Hilarious!!

    Fact – whatever was going on, only one of you made the decision to cheat, lie, and risk everything. It’s interesting that the cheaters use the blame narrative only after getting caught. We chumps find out an awful lot about how we were awful once their affairs are found out. Take her for the crappy person she is and leave her and saggy balls to their blissful – whatever you call this.

  • Dear Ultimate Chump,

    I’m so sorry. It doesn’t matter if she cheated with Brad Pitt or Peter Jackson, the pain is the same. Sounds like she has some serious issues because even if she were single, unless there’s something that wasn’t communicated, who would pick the guy you described? Even aside from the willingness to help someone cheat, he doesn’t seem like a five star partner.
    I think recognizing that the pain and my cheaters decisions aren’t black and white (or logical) has helped me be able to let it go a little. It doesn’t have to make sense when “haunted cheaters” cheat. My pain and grief also don’t have to be linear and aren’t dependent on his actions making sense.
    Idk, I guess I’m saying that your frustration is totally warranted and we stand by you, however virtually.

  • In circumstances of real danger and overt abuse (adultery, violence, serious financial betrayal) the betrayed spouse has every right to flee immediately upon that we all might agree.

    With regard to simply being a sucky spouse, I think that everyone deserves a “listen to me spouse, this thing you do ______, if you don’t stop that I will leave this marriage so please consider your actions carefully and act accordingly”.

    I can think of one person I ever knew who (from the outside so it may not be reliable) was such a shrew that her husbands cheating and departure seemed a natural path but even she deserved a marital end with more integrity and decency than what him running off with howorker.

    My Cheater had a mindfuck version of an ostensibly reasonable spousal request…whatever my coping tool was to survive my miserable life with him (kids, work, devotion to home, online support groups) he would do a fake “lets talk honey” moment and tell me our marriage would be better if I were more devoted to him and less to ____ thus using my commitment to the marriage to give up my crutch and throw off my human coping. He then returned to horrible behavior that caused me to need some sort of crutch or diversion.

    • Unicornomore,
      Thank you for posting what we all are thinking.
      Cheaters see what decent behavior is, they do exactly what you posted here. They mimic decent people…invested partners, it’s all bullshit.
      Mine after d day #2 suggested counseling (his idea, decent right??) then lied to the counselor, at the end of that it was a lot of me apologizing to him for not trusting him.
      They use whatever makes us powerful against us.
      “Spouse….I don’t feel good in this marriage. If you don’t stop talking to your therapist, sister, best friend…whoever, I don’t think I can go on. It just causes problems with us because they are against us.,
      I’m not fucking ______( he was) but I might as well be if you are just going to accuse me of it all the time. If you can’t trust me, we should end it.”
      So the chump apologizes, stops asking about _______ and renews the membership to weight watchers and spends a fortune at Victoria’s Secret to keep it on the tracks.
      Then you finally end it ( or they do) and they run down the laundry list of things they tried to do to make it better…..they are awesome, they tried ( see the list??) but we were just awful.
      What a mindfuck.

      • Paintwidow….

        How did you know what my h said on numerous occasions? ????
        Holy cow… when you think you saw everything…

    • Unicorn,
      «My Cheater had a mindfuck version of an ostensibly reasonable spousal request…whatever my coping tool was to survive my miserable life with him (kids, work, devotion to home, online support groups) he would do a fake “lets talk honey” moment and tell me our marriage would be better if I were more devoted to him and less to ____ thus using my commitment to the marriage to give up my crutch and throw off my human coping. He then returned to horrible behavior that caused me to need some sort of crutch or diversion.«

      THIS! I have never been able to put into words what you wrote, that was ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!!

      • My ex would sometimes encourage me to go do something to relax because I was too stressed out even if I was not aware that I was stressed out. Then I would go do what he suggested only to have him end up resenting the time I had spent on it. I would get back all relaxed and revitalized only to have him be all sullen and cross because he had been stuck with the kids for a bit, never mind that it was his suggestion in the first place. Of course I would then go from relaxed and revitalized to exhausted and stressed for real as I tried to make it up to him by doing everything myself so he could take a break and be less stressed and tense.

        • Same! I was a homeschool mom, and the very few times I took his offer to watch the kids while I went on a mom’s-night-out, he was so pissy when I got home that I gelt really guilty and didn’t make a habit of it.

      • He also had another version I later referred to as the “wild goose chase” method where he would “meaningfully share” that our lives would be better if I would just ____. Insert impossible task into that spot which will cause me to spin in endless circles while he fucked howorkers.

        Best example is his encouragement to develop a better relationship with my parents.

        I could have sooner sprouted sings and flown to Mars.

        • Mine told me that all the problems were caused by my insecurities….
          Jaw on the floor…????‍♀️
          “ you are saying that my insecurities( which is just too funny since at this point that bs was not working on me) caused you pursuing other women and fuck prostitutes?
          I started laughing. Break through moment for me- I was reading that morning few articles related to abusers and their tactics… yep, spot on 🙂

          • Mine said ALL men sext…………..(with prostitutes!!!)
            That he couldn’t talk to me because of my depression and I always flew off the handle.
            Well, motherfucker, how would you react if I told you when you just told me?!!
            They are fucking delusional morons!! I can’t. There are no words to describe the mindfuck these people cause.
            It’s so frustrating to feel that my fucking DOG understands better than he does.

    • My ex used a variant of this ploy. He would wait until things were going well for me professionally, and then he would manufacture a crisis or have elective surgery that required me to focus exclusively on him and care for him physically. For years I suspected this was going on but doubted my perceptions, taking myself to task for being too suspicious or too uncharitable (“he wouldn’t do that deliberately; you’re the bad person for thinking he would!) until finally he did it in a situation that made it clear beyond all doubt. My mother, who lives a thousand miles away, had a stroke, and they day I arrived to see her, he sent me a text trying to re-focus my attention on him.
      As for the tendency to self-blame: my ex, who watched lots of he-she porn, declared after 32 years of marriage that he had decided he was transgendered, and wanted for a time to “transition,” until he decided he wouldn’t pass and his vanity, pride, and prestige would take a hit if he did so he’d stay in the closet and dress up and act out at home with me (and make no mistake, this was all a sexual thing). At my lowest I used to think I was such a bad woman my husband didn’t even want to be a man anymore.

    • Yep. Talk about gaslighting. And THAT took me a very long time to figure out. That’s why I think this particular kind of fuckhead is the worst. They make us doubt ourselves.

    • I am betting even the one who seemed shrewish was probably just a reasonable person who got sick of dealing with his mindfuckery, gaslighting and shit. It was probably some stellar impression management on his part. I do know that I was so ‘what the fuck’ with Cheaty McCheaterson’s behaviour before he announced his departure that I became very angry and was more than likely not living my best self either. The way he was acting was so unbelievable and made no sense whatsoever that I could only react with disbelief and anger when he started accusing me of all kinds of rubbish and telling me I was being abusive to HIM. Of course, when I found out he was cheating, it made perfect sense. I sometimes wish I had been more onto it, as once I understood his motivation, he could no longer trick me into outbursts at his irrational baiting. He went about telling everyone I was being totally unreasonable/abusive and driving him into the arms of the other woman. I played into his hands.

      • I was so there too. The woman who he was cheating on me with, and moved in 3 months after I moved out, left him less than a year later. Now 3 years out and he’s still whining about being persecuted and treated unfairly by me and his past girlfriend(s). I don’t think all his efforts on the dating sites are working out well for him – who knew victim-hood would be so unattractive? LOL.

  • Congratulations… are free of some drama loving nit-wit.

    You are a young Rock Star. Go create an awesome life.

  • I don’t get it. I could possibly see it if he had money…

    Anyway my ex’s Howorker is 12 years older than him and 15 years older than me. Very homely. No money. His excuse, “She does what I tell her.” My response, “She’s supposed to do what you tell her to do, you’re her boss.”

    The point is who knows why they pick someone who is old, ugly, poor, etc. You could be the perfect spouse, if they have that entitled personality, they will cheat.

    Good for you for getting into therapy. Working on yourself is the best thing you can do.

    • ” His excuse, “She does what I tell her.” ”

      Really, that is chilling and horrifying. Some people really don’t want to have healthy reciprocal relationships but would much prefer to have a servant. My Cheater had some of this in his personality. He had dated a woman in college who later went on to become an astronaut…when we learned of her accomplishment, his response was “I thought her husband (who Cheater also knew) would have better control over her”.

      • My X Asshat hated me for my success, it was not the screamed-at-me list of reasons why I am an awful, horrible person. Little piggy boys do that.

        That is why he downgraded to a woman half his age. He has a good head start on her.

        • Same here. Mt stbx downgraded to his ho-worker shortly after I graduated college and embarked on a new career. He couldn’t handle the fact that I had new responsibilities and he was expected to actually adult. I was so busy and depended on him to do his share of responsibilities. We were making more money than we ever had, were taking our children for the first time ever, and getting in a better situation. It was a very stressful first year. However, while I was working late hours, he was talking to ho-worker and everyone else who would listen to his sob story about how I was a less-than-stellar wife. It was betrayal after betrayal and lots of character assassination before I finally discovered what was going on.

          • My ex started shortly after I finished graduate school and got a much better job with a larger paycheck. I did it for our family, so I could have better hours and better pay.

            Ex and his family all hated me for my success because they knew they could not control me.

    • I long ago reached the conclusion that my Ex had only 2 criteria for being w/a woman; she had to have adoring eyes and open legs.

      And yes, that was also the criteria by which he picked me. However, w/me, he got a lot more in the package, and I made his life good and made him look good for a decade and a half. That added value did not, however, ’cause him to hesitate when someone came along w/adoring eyes and open legs.

    • I once asked X what OW did that I didn’t and X said OW listened to him. For a while I thought literally and sat down in the evening to listen to him (but was confused because I had spent more than a decade listening to him go on about himself). Then I realized he meant she did what he told her to do. The stumped me for sure. Who wants an automaton for a partner?! I guess control freaks?

      • OMG, the listening. The Dickhead whined, pouted, vented more than any person I know. Every dinner was filled with him ranting and raving about coworkers, bosses, ex-wife, friend, you name it. If I dared try to change the conversation, I got a look that said you are interrupting me. I may be alone now but the quiet is so nice.

        • Oh the whining, THE WHINING!!!!!!!!!!!!
          My ASSHOLE X has only 4 topics of conversation:
          His native country (Ad fucking Nauseum)
          Money (includes his very important job, NOT.)

          That’s it and that is ALL EVER for infinity, AMEN.

        • Mine once threatened during an argument: “If you don’t want to listen to me talk about my work then I’ll find someone who will.” This was him knowing full well that he had an affair 13 years ago and yet he could still toss that in my face. I should have left him then.

          Goes to show that they may wear different masks but the entitlement never really goes away.

      • They want the ‘loyal servant’, but then will grow to despise them. Just like they wanted the well-rounded, responsible adult, then grew to despise us as well.

        ‘Cause that’s what they do!

  • Cheaters never trade up. Never. Because – well, morals. Ethics. Integrity. Cheaters have none of these qualities. YOU have these qualities (and so do the rest of us chumps). Cheaters always trade down, and they want to fuck strange. Don’t waste your time trying to figure out their definition of strange, or need for it. Try not to internalize it and compare yourself, because there’s nothing to compare. You are (OBVIOUSLY) leagues above this dude. It sucks, and it’s excruciatingly painful, but you’ll get through. Keep your chin up!!

  • Water finds its own level.

    She cheated, so she sucks. You’re too good for her, even if you leave the toilet seat up, snore, tell bad jokes and don’t know how to change oil.

    I’m sorry that it hurts but trust that she found her equal rather than someone she struggled to match.

    • YES! Thanks for the reminder of that saying-

      They do not leave us for our betters, they leave us for their EQUALS.

      She is just as awful on the inside as he is on the outside. Who cares if it comes in a younger or more attractive package, she is just as lowly as the dude.

    • It easy for us Chumps to fall into the cattle ranchers game of cataloging our per pound value and deficits like we’re on auction at the county fair. Was it the twisted tooth, the hang of the udders, the spot over the eye, the shape of our hoof, that led them to another heifer while we got traded to the slaughter line? Truth be told, you ceased being the creature they could corral and milk the life out of, and as painful as the relinquishment from your captor was, it’s also a blessing. I say keep bucking your way out of that proverbial shit pit and run for greener pastures without looking back. Let CN be your free-reign farm sanctuary as you heal.

  • Abuse. Tracy once again is calling the shit out for what it is. Abuse. Read it…say it…believe it. And tell your therapist every week. Abuse. Go have a happy life far from her and count your blessings you are getting out now. Peace and hugs.

  • I had worse than a Switzerland friend. I had a friend who told me I caused him to cheat. Note the verb tense. HAD. This woman is no longer a friend. She was also a neighbor who went through a very long difficult period in her life and SO MANY times dropped by my house to talk. I stopped what I was doing and talked to her, hoping she felt BETTER than when she arrived.

    I don’t cause people to lie, drink, use drugs, murder, rob banks. Or cheat. Or ABUSE me, which is what cheating is. If I had the kind of power to cause other people to do ANYTHING, the world would be a much better place.

    Say it often:


    Write it on Post It Notes and wallpaper the house.
    Put them in your car on the dashboard.
    Tattoo it on your arm

    It took me SIX MONTHS to fully internalize tbat his decision to cheat had ZERO ZERO ZERO to do with me.

    • If your car is out of gas, do you get out and key it?
      (She keyed YOU!)
      If your house needs a new roof, do you burn it down?
      (She burned it down WITH YOU IN IT.)
      If you need a flyswatter, do you use a Howitzer?
      (She Howitzed YOU.)
      If your find gum under the table at a greasy spoon, do you put it in your mouth and chew it?
      (She is ABC gum! Don’t touch!! Eeeeew!)

      • PS…
        When you have some free time, write her Tinder profile, a truthful one.

        “I enjoy lying and cheating and mindfucking and stabbing people in the back.”

        “I have terrible communication skills and even worse relationship skills.”

        “Looking for a Vulcan as I prefer the mind-meld to actual communication and have no emotions, esp. empathy.”

        “I am not actually divorced but my marriage was over years ago.”


      • Velvet, I had the same friends/neighbors who ex ignored until a couple of months before his exit.
        One of theses”friends” a neighbor who I thought was a close friend went through some difficult times. A couple of the comments she made that come to mind is, well, “you two weren’t getting along,” another after Cheater forwarded an angry e-mail I sent him to everyone we know, “no wonder he left, writing angry e-mails like that” Her and another neighbor/friend would call orstop by under the guise of concern, I find out that it was only to find out information to report to ex while meeting him for lunch and going out on weekends.
        Then they have the nerve to tell me “We’ve never seen Cheater so happy,” only a month after DDay, “Cheater has gone on with his life, you need to move on with yours, cheater wants that for you.” well, of course he did, I’m sure he was hoping I’d fall off the face of the earth too.
        So easy to say when your life isn’t imploding and you don’t know how you’re going to pay your bills or what your future holds. Fuck them all.

        • oops.., s paragraph disappeared in my post, after my neighbor went thorough difficult times simply put I helped her through them..,

          • I forgot to mention, neighbor tells me, I should be understanding, “Cheater wants to be with someone he has more in common with.”
            20 years of marriage, vacationing every year with his family, graduations, support through down times, years of unemployment, moving across the country and back, a child together, all that life entails in that time frame. We have nothing in common?
            I sacrificed my career for “our” career, just when we’re able to live comfortably.
            Cheater meets a woman in a hotel gym one weekend and discovers she’s what he’s been looking for all his life and they have so much more in common.

            • Brit,
              I hear ‘ya. One of my long-time friends, upon hearing that my last partner had discarded me, said,’ Why are you surprised? He is a middle-aged childless successful executive. You are a middle-aged mother of school-aged kids.’ I don’t think that she even realized that what she said was very hurtful.

            • RockStarWife, my response would have been “And you’re a piece of shit. Fuck off.”

              I hope you have culled this bitch from your life – that there is an instant fucking dealbreaker. Fuck these pieces of trash.

    • One of the few things that Dickhead said to me was, I wasn’t to blame. Now whether he said that to throw me off track, keep up the image, whatever, I’m finally believing it as face value. He admitted that he was not a good husband (his words) and in fact he really was a bad husband and a poor excuse of a human. Yes, he sucks.

      • Glad to hear it’s sinking in lovely, that you did nothing wrong. The ex said that to me too. I believe that too, after many months, but it still feels patronising!

    • I’m with you on this. Except it was my own mother, grandmother, aunt, and mother in law telling me it was my fault he cheated. The mindfuckery was EVERYWHERE. But then one day it finally occurred to me that the common denominator among them was that they were all cheaters. Duh, right? ????????‍♀️

      Perhaps your neighbor was also a cheater. Or perhaps she was trying to justify her own spouse’s cheating by buying into the idea that she could have prevented it and therefore you could have, too.

      Doesn’t matter, though. You knew better, you set a healthy boundary, and you refused to engage with her and perpetuate the narrative. Well done!!

      For what it’s worth, I cut off those people in my life, too. I gave them multiple verbal warnings that they were crossing my boundary with talk of “well honey maybe he just needed someone thinner who could turn him on” / “I told you that you needed to lose the weight, now look what you’ve done to your marriage” / “you should be inspired by (OW) – I read her fitness blog and she’s got a lot of great advice” / etc etc etc ????. So I went no contact with everyone except my own mother, and now that I’m free to see her as the NPD b**ch she is, I’m VERY guarded and intentionally grey rock. Still working on how I want to approach it in therapy.

      Point is, it’s up to chumps to do the hard work of internalizing – as you’ve done – that we don’t cause other people’s behavior. And it’s so encouraging to me to read how other people go through this same struggle but they also throw off the mindfuck narrative and claim the truth that we had zero responsibility for the cheating.

      • Hopeful, I think you are a straight up awesome human. If anyone had told me that I should be inspired and work to become like my ex’s bodybuilding prostitute in order to keep him–I might have actually punched them. You show remarkable restraint and self control.

        • Jojobee- it’s true that out of all the things I regret doing after Dday, at least I didn’t assault anyone. Thank you for putting it into perspective! ????

    • People who tell you that you are at fault for the FuckWit’s cheating are:
      1. Cheaters themselves
      2. Have the IQ of lab rats. Lab rats think that they are so smart because when they press the lever kibble comes out the hole for then to eat. The only reason you are hungry is because you have not pressed the right lever (or danced just right!) Of course, the entire thing was rigged from the start. That maze was set up to convince the rat they were important because they knew how to push the lever, when in fact it was just for the enjoyment of the white coated lab assistant.

  • Every human being is flawed in some way. What separates us a decent versus immoral is how we respond to our own flaws. You’re going to therapy… you’re doing the work to address your flaws. She fucks strange behind your back… she’s trying to escape her flaws because she lacks the character/courage to be honest about them (e.g. she isn’t happy in her marriage.)

    De-chumping is hard enough without also shouldering the blame for the cheater. You aren’t Atlas, let her go with best wishes and get on with your cheater free life and amazing life journey that awaits.

  • Such wisdom above! No need for me to reinvent those perfect wheels, so I will add a new angle instead.

    Frequently when people start talking about the physical traits of APs and judging them harshly, I end up reading a lot of stuff that inadvertently describes me very disparagingly.

    I am quite overweight and short, so white I burn before I have any hope of even a small tan, with somewhat crooked teeth, and I have thin flat hair and a double chin (which I also had when I was a size zero!) and a muffin top (which I had when I was size zero, too…) and a roadmap of scars and stretch marks on my lucky-to-be-alive-body… and my paycheck is pretty weak, and I am a terrible cook…

    I could go on, but I think I have painted you a good enough picture of my undesirability thus far. ????

    Yet, if someone chooses to partner with me, I still expect that person to be good to me and I still think it is possible for a person to find me legitimately attractive. Why?

    Well, because I find others attractive based on who they are, even if they don’t look like magazines say they should — and because, as I fully grasp after years of therapy, I am a high quality human being.

    While I am sure that for some it’s true that cheaters and APs choose each other for socially visual reasons, I think it probably isn’t at the top of the heap when it comes to what makes the cheating work for them. Character is a much stronger motivator for most, I think. You have to choose a mean person if you want the person to team up with you in doing something mean.

    I say this to shout out to any other chumps who have struggled with feeling like they must be total trolls. It’s hard to read a description of yourself resembling someone else’s AP as they express their pain by describing your physical/social twin with vitriol. It hurts, I know.

    Just remember, (1) the person is really describing their pain, not you, and (2) emotionally healthy quality humans choose other emotionally healthy quality humans. Hold out for yours.

    Accept no substitutes, no matter how pretty.

    • Dearest Amiisfree, I read your description of yourself and my first thought was “Pfffft, that may be what she looks like, but that isn’t who she IS.” I’m so glad you know that about yourself too. We here at Chump Nation know you to be a beautiful and wise soul who regularly enlightens us and lifts us up and I for one, adore you.

    • “Just remember, (1) the person is really describing their pain, not you,”


      I think it’s normal to vent about these things, let’s just not take them personally, because they’re not!

      My ex-husband’s betrayal was made all the worse when I thought about all the nasty things I put up with (lovingly, at the time) for years, thinking wrongly that he was also investing in me. So when I think about the wasted years, I can’t help but remember all those times I put up with his stinking breath and a litany of other things that now loom large as outward manifestations of his inner soul-lessness.

      It’s my pain, not him though. In a quality person, I gladly look over all manner of imperfections, as we all have them, and in a good person, those quirks don’t even matter.

    • All true Ami.
      In my case a couple of my close friends remarked favorably on the AP’s looks which was of course just more salt in my gaping wounds.
      Truth is she is a horrible person for engaging in the dirty business of adultery (as they all are) while posting filtered selfies all over social media, flashing the ill begotten gifts & proclaiming her maternal-ness. Such a sickening grubber of a whore with diseased character.
      Pretty or ugly, rich or poor, cheaters are trash.

    • I love all y’all, big time! ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    • Ami, if your heart and soul are how you speak, then you are a wonderful, deserving person. Real love comes from the heart and not physical appearance. I am sorry that my description of OM hurt you. I didn’t intend to make anybody feel bad about how they look. It was simply to give some perspective on the situation. As I said before, I’m 32, muscular build, but with thinning hair and a hairline so receded it looks like my forehead goes to the back of my neck. So whether a cheater cheats over looks or otherwise they are still a shallow shit hole that doesn’t deserve you. Keep on loving yourself and who you are and love will find you. CN is always here for you!!

      • Thank you, that is so kind, but it didn’t hurt me in a real way, so we are good. That kind of thing used to bring up more pain in me though, and that prompted me to explore my reaction — because I, too, of course, had similar feelings and anger when I was closer to the betrayal and spoke of the ugliness of my betrayer and his minions.

        I really just hoped to help others who may be stuck where I used to be stuck to get over the hump and see it differently. I truly do believe that we are expressing anger toward one icky person when we describe a cheater or an AP as ugly, and that is anger at the cheater, who deserves it.

        That said, I am glad your open heart is hearing another side to it, too, because I think it eventually becomes more empowering to attack the bad character — which is the true root of the issue anyway.

        Someday we all take the big dirt nap. There aren’t very many people whose top concern on the deathbed is how they look. ????

        May we all have love in our hearts for our beautiful selves!

  • Dear UC

    Did my Ex and I have problems, yup.
    Were we both unhappy, yup.
    Did I have issues I personally needed to work on, Yup.
    Did we both (or did I) decide to have sex with other people and lie about it – NO. He did.
    Did we both (or I) refuse to do any joint counseling or try to improve the marriage – NO. He did.

    IF you stay focused on your ex you will find all kinds of ways to keep torturing yourself, their choice of affair partner, their actions and the things they do say to you, the things they don’t do or say to you, The things they do or don’t do or say about you, etc. etc. etc, world without end. No matter how impossibly hard it seems the answer is to let them go. We talk about getting to meh, going grey rock. The truth is at first we all have to fake it – but eventually you fake not caring and total un-involvement for long enough and ta da – you do not care and you are no longer involved, you are free.

    What you did or did not do as a partner in your past relationship only matters to you – in the sense of – do you want to carry that into another relationship with someone else? Do you think the behavior, or feeling, or what ever, was good for you and good for any potential future relationship? What your ex thinks of you and your past relationship matters less than a mouse fart in the middle of category 5 hurricane.

    Work on you, for you, and forget about anything else. You got this.

  • Perfect timing for me.

    My question is: what are the real dealbreakers? Is sleeping with someone else qualitatively worse than any other thing? For example, if my own relationship skills sucked, if I lied at times (about relatively minor financial things, primarily to avoid her unreasonable control), if I “didn’t hear her” when she “told me” (i.e., insinuated in a somewhat cryptic way) that she was unhappy…how much of that is on me?

    In other words, how much truth is there to their post-discovery allegations?

    • John Q, only you can figure out what YOUR dealbreakers would be, and what most ‘reasonable’ people’s dealbreakers would be. For reasonable people, there are only a very few immediate dealbreakers (violence and cheating should be on that list for anybody). ANYTHING else, including stuff as serious as addiction, untreated mental illness, minor lies, general unhappiness, should lead to real attempts to express the problem clearly, insist on specific change and/or on the seeking of professional help. When we are in a committed relationship, we assume some, you know, commitment!

      It’s perfectly legitimate to look at your own behaviour in that relationship and decide you want to improve some things or change some things. Things you believe will make you a better partner in future.

      What’s not legit is to have ABUSE justified by anything at all that you did. And cheating is abuse; it’s your partner making choices about your life and your health without informing you, it’s your partner changing the parameters of your relationship w/no discussion, and hiding that from you.

      So just as we now know that no matter how awful you are, your partner doesn’t get to hit you, we should all know that no matter how awful you are, your partner doesn’t get to cheat on you.

      And yeah, since when does ‘poor communication’ equate to blowing up your life by deception? Manipulative people do something called ‘false equivalencies’, and that’s what that is. Go read about it!

      • When you find yourself lying because you are avoiding a partner’s “unreasonable control,” that’s a huge red flag. Suspend, for a minute, whether the control was indeed unreasonable. What you describe, just in this sentence, is a relationship characterized by power and control. Right there, you have a problem. And if that control is indeed “unreasonable,” it was changing your character to stay married to this person. Another huge red flag.

        For you, it was financial control, often a sign of abuse. Others experience isolation from family or friends. That can be very subtle–just enough hostility or lack of warmth to make visitors uncomfortable or to make visiting others a source of stress and anxiety. It can be subtle disapproval of friends and family.

        My point, John Q, is that you know she’s controlling. You know she’s a liar. Why are you agonizing over her justifications for what she did? You can have the best relationship skills in the world and you can’t have a reciprocal relationship with someone who wants to hold the power and control. And talking to her about things just keeps you in the gaslighted state she prefers to keep you in.

        • Check out Dr. George Simon’s website on “manipulative people.” He also has several really good books.

          I wasn’t an ideal wife, either. But I didn’t deserve to come home every day to a drunken, verbally abusive, and emotionally absent husband. Period.

          • Thanks for all the replies! I ordered Dr. Simon’s book yesterday.

            Whether the control was “unreasonable” is maybe my own view. There were a lot of gray areas, but I don’t think I crossed any serious lines.

            I think what I’m struggling with most is the idea that she was always like this. A lot of people have told me that. Because that means I had a bad picker, and I was duped for a DECADE. Like a Chump.

            • It’s not the pain Olympics however noting for some its even more decades – pretty much all of my adult life here. Now it’s making the best of the rest of it 🙂

            • Who they appear to be with us can be very different from how they behave towards others. We spackle over their behavior to avoid our own cognitive dissonance. I ended a long standing friendship with one of x’s long term friends because I couldn’t even hear what she was trying to describe to me, how x had changed how he was treating her. I thought people would ask why I left x, but it turned out that most only asked why I stayed so long. X dropped the mask with people that didn’t serve him. Eventually I was able to see that included me too.

              • Sometimes it is right in front of your face and you still spackle. I knew ex had a love it to hate it cycle for most things in his life. I knew he often presented himself as being on the same page as whoever he was talking too when he had much different opinions in private. I knew he was often friendly towards people he really didn’t like. I knew he often thought poorly of people for reasons that I didn’t think were valid (perhaps just different priorities) and yet, somehow, I thought I was special. I refused to believe that I might someday fall into the “hate it” category. I never believed that he would be a fake to me. I was wrong. Knowing what I know now it makes me cringe every time he is friendly towards me because now I just assume it is fake. Well, I can fake it too for the sake of the kids and to avoid looking like the bitter angry ex wife.

            • Con artists fool people. And if you fall in love when you are young, and then you grow and change in 10 years, it might mean that you outgrow what it was that allowed you to live with disorder.

              The first stage of a relationship with cheaters is often “idealization and overvaluation,” in which the disordered person convinces the mark (chump) that they are the greatest person ever and no one will love them like the con artist (cheater). So if you go into a relationship with such a person feeling that you’ve had a deficit of love in your life, it can feel like “at last–someone loves me.” But instead, after 6 months or two years or ten, we find out it was a cruel deception.

              • “I thought he was real with me” and that is why IMO we feel so shit about ourselves. Because we thought we were special . While they were thinking we are especially stupid
                I really think these fuckers believe we deserve it because we fell for their con.
                My daughter was reading the latest email for her angry father last night an she remarked that it sounded like the ramblings of a 12 year old in a cat fight. The fact it was written in red font added to the melodrama for him????

      • KareE, I love what you what you wrote. I dragged myself through the self doubt-self blame swamp everyday for 2 plus years. Wondering if what I ever did or said was so bad that it warranted her cheating (with you guessed it a major downgrade) and blowing up the family and eventually losing our then home. I wondered how much better a human being this other dude must be to leave what I thought was a pretty stable life with promise and a future after 17 years. Of course I’m not perfect. But never physically or emotionally abusive. Never withheld financially. Rarely raised my voice. I questioned my very reality. It took a long time. I love how you put ASSUMED COMMITMENT. We should all be able to assume that. If not? How nervous would anyone be 24 hours a day without that feeling of security and not having to constantly worry that some slight of behavior may cause them to stray? Who the hell would want to live like that? Constantly questioning your own behavior so nothing catastrophic would demolish your life? I would rather be totally alone and at peace than to walk on egg shells like that. I read earlier on here how water finds its own level. So true!! These people have to keep living that way. Or at least the new CHUMPS do! FUCK THAT!!!

    • It doesn’t matter.


      She opted to cheat rather than go to a therapist. She opted to cheat rather than go get an attorney and separate.

      So while you screwed up (we ALL screw up), you didn’t MAKE HER CHEAT. Don’t lie about financial stuff though. If you find yourself with someone who exhibits unreasonable control that means you need to fix your picker. Therapy for you. You can do that while in a relationship but it is a LOT easier to work on you when you’re not returning for another helping of micromanagement.

      You didn’t “make her” CHEAT. Now go take care of yourself.

    • I too have pondered this, however, these are things that you can talk about, apologize for ( telling the truth is hard but us chumps own our shit and are not cowards) which makes great make up opportunities, right? Realize that you are two different people and sometimes stupid shit happens and we all screw up in some kinda way. These are trite issues that can be worked through. Now if you or I are habitual liars then, uh, yeah can understand why someone would want to take a step back and assess the future with us and would be right to do so. However, there is a thing called respect that says “Hey, this is not cool and I want to leave, file for divorce, whatever.” These fucktards do it for the thrill of not getting caught. How many times do you have to hear, it’s not the first time? Sucks to be an appliance. Oh, I get it I am your best girl/guy-you leave me home on Saturday night. We are not dolls or toy cars. We don’t go into marriage with a list of deal breakers, they do. What’s worse is they never tell or let on about this. Which tells you they were never really vested in the first place. Hard pill to swallow especially when they have the water and dump it out right in front of you because it’s warm and not cold.

    • It’s not so much what they actually do – it’s the fact that they lie, deceive and mislead. It’s the trust issue. And if you ‘didn’t hear’ that she was unhappy, it was her responsibility to make sure you understood and could react to that in a conscious thoughtful decisive way. A friend told me ‘I knew you were unhappy’. No, HE was unhappy. But he never sat down and told me, instead he played a song over and over again assuming I would ‘get it’ from the lyrics, and told his female friend the truth about how he felt. Guess what? EA ensued. It’s clear honest fearless communication that was lacking and it sounds like you were in the same boat.

      • My STBX did the same thing! “The Great Communicator” played songs over and over and when he told me he was leaving, he said I should have listened to the lyrics!! I thought I was going crazy when I heard that.

      • The ex actually articulated to me that he thought I could read his mind …. I thought he was being sarcastic
        I think head injury/ brain damage is a very realistic explanation for some of the more baffling behaviour… any others had the thought that their ex was actually brain damaged ?

    • D-day#1 should have been a deal-breaker for me.
      In fact it was proof that my marriage was o.v.e.r.
      But I kept trying.

      Dating X had plenty of deal-breakers of lesser crimes, but I was goofy in love.

      This is the magic of a new life; Its resetting (rediscovering?) what my deal-breakers are and recommitting to those values.

      Its how I know its going to be better. Its how I can trust my X sucks. Its how I let go of my anger. Its how I freed myself of the pain.

      I would have dumped her long ago, if I wasn’t so young or so innocent or so…. etc….

      Now I can find a partner who aligns with my deal-breakers, who lifts me up, who I can return love in-kind.

    • Q – I call this the untangling of our own skein. Far better for us to spend time figuring ourselves out than trying to figure out the cheaters we were with.

      You didn’t do anything to make her cheat. Period.

      Did you do things in the marriage that were worse than the cheating? I don’t know. But, CL states in her response above that there are ethical ways to leave such a marriage that doesn’t entail cheating, regardless of what kind of person we were in our marriages. What I don’t buy is that chumps are the controllers that so many cheaters claim that we are. If we were truly controlling or abusive, they would fear the fallout of engaging in an affair. My mother was abused by my father when I was growing up; there is no way she would have risked an affair with another man for fear of my father’s wrath. You get out of such a situation with the aid of the authorities, a women’s shelter, family protection and good legal counsel.

      I will completely own my part in how I was failing my marriage, and I have been working through it in counselling and support group sessions. One, I have some co-dependent tendencies stemming from my own childhood. I am a fixer – always seeking to set everything straight. That means I exercise a level of control in my environment that would be overwhelming for someone who isn’t very strong. I need to curb this. Two, I am an over-achiever who spent a number of years, particularly when my children were babies, stressed out trying to be all things to all people – perfect at work, perfect mom, keep the perfect home, and became a less than perfect wife. I had phases when I was complainer and nagger, even critical of my husband. Felt like he needed to do more, pushed him, sometimes resented him, made him feel he was never doing enough. Third, I think that there have been times when I suffered anxiety and did not identify what I was feeling as anxiety. There were times when I felt like little seemed to be going right and would become very agitated. I would complain incessantly, even worrying myself about why I was reacting so viscerally when things didn’t seem to go the way I hoped they would. These are faults I need to own and work on them.

      But, none of this justifies my STBXH engaging in inappropriate relationships with OW for over two years. The gaslighting, the lying, the manipulation. He could have left with dignity. But, I was supporting him through a university degree, the sole income earner for our family while he worked to higher his education. I wasn’t meeting his needs, but I was serving a purpose. I did the pick me dance for almost a year after discovering the existence of the OW that he eventually left me for – he pretended to work on the marriage.

      But, as CL points out above, how we address our problems says a lot about our character. Over the years, when I noted that we seemed to be growing apart, I started reading articles on how to rekindle the spark, and I would approach him with all sorts of strategies – regular date night, writing love notes, schedule sex regularly even if no one feels like it in order to get the mojo going again. Numerous times, I begged for marriage counselling to enlist the aid of someone to help us better communicate our needs. I suggested we talk to our priest at church. I suggested a marriage course at our church. I read articles about how to approach my husband in different ways in order to discuss issues over the distribution of labour in the home. I even attempted his way, which was always to “just give it time and all will pass.” I was often suggesting weekend trips away, going to a concert, hosting dinner parties for there to be more fun in our lives. He suffered two lay-offs while we were married, and I encouraged him to embrace it as opportunity to try anything, which is how he ultimately ended up doing a university degree, full-time.

      Even when I found out about the OW, I didn’t leave. He finally agreed to marriage counselling. When that got sabotaged by him, I continued with individual counselling. I read 100s of RIC articles, invested in programs on-line, got him to a couple’s therapy weekend, consulted with our priest. At one point, I was even going to our church nightly to pray the rosary for our marriage. Gave him space as he boomeranged in and out of the house in his “confusion,” and gave him his space (later I learned he was bouncing between me and her).

      Oddly enough, so much of the stress that I felt on and off over the years that had me freaking out seems to have dissipated since he left. I don’t want to shift the blame onto him, as I must own the choices that I made in my actions over the years. I need to continue on working out better coping strategies to manage stress, work-life balance and more constructive communication of my needs. However, I have more going on in my life than ever before now that I’m on my own with my kids, career and house. Yet, I have never been more at peace, and I feel very capable.

      Was I so bad that I deserved to be cheated on? No. I move on from this disaster knowing that in my darkest hours, I chose to be patient, understanding and forgiving with the man I loved. I showed my loyalty and commitment through thick and thin. I turned to professional help, the support of family and the power of prayer. I took responsibility, attempted to make amends and sought true change (and continue to do so for myself). Meanwhile, he slept with another woman that he equated to a feeling of heroine addiction – he knows she’s no good but the euphoria he feels with her is so powerful that he can only think about how to get more. But, at the end of the day, I realize that my biggest mistake has been that I wasted the effort on someone unworthy. He really, really was unworthy.

      What did he do? He kept another woman going the entire time and developed a complete revisionist history of the entire marriage that included declarations that he never loved me, married me only because I checked all the boxes of what you want in an amazing wife, rarely felt anything physical with me, and realized that we have so little in common that he wouldn’t even be friends with me if he were to meet me again. He didn’t just ethically exit this marriage with a measure of honour and respect for the woman he shared almost 15 years of his life and bore two children with. Nope, he detonated nuclear bombs over the integrity and foundation of the entire relationship to the point that I had PTS symptoms for about 6-7 months after he left for good.

  • I had a similar experience. My ex was a serial cheater, and I’m pretty sure by every measure they were all lesser men, and less attractive men, than me. Her first was a guy almost *three* times her age, with kids older than her, no money, being put out to pasture in early retirement. Her last (and the one she ditched me for) was really fat, short, bald, broke, almost 40 but working in an entry-level job, and had a goatee that looked like…to put it as politely as possible, something unkempt on a woman.
    I know how it is. It’s bad enough to be cheated on (and maybe left) for someone else, but to know that the someone else is really undesirable just makes it that much worse. You think to yourself “Gosh, I must be super ugly and obnoxious to be worse than those losers!” In my case, it was made that much worse as my then-wife actually told me she was leaving because I clearly couldn’t be as attractive as she was. She had all these OM, so clearly, she must be too sexy for me. (Yes, that’s what she said). She then went on a laundry list of all my faults and imperfections. Then, her mother made a point of telling me that she hoped I could make some changes so someone else wouldn’t do this to me in the future. Needless to say, my self-esteem was in the toilet.
    What you need to remember is that people cheat because they want to, not because the chump has issues. Plus, cheaters have to choose from a menu of potential partners that are willing to be with a cheating scumbag, and play second-fiddle to the chump. They almost always trade down, not up.

    • This exactly! Why can they not find a better? Because better is US and people like us won’t give them the time of day!!!!!! Mmnnn……

  • Thank you so much CL. I came to you because of your uncanny ability to bitch slap some sense into us chumps. And that is exactly what you did! I am seriously considering a trip to somewhere warm now, a place to unwind and stop giving a fuck.
    Thank you, UC.

    • Hang in there, Nick/UC. It will get better. I had the same experience as you (see my comment right above). Watch out for her trying to “Hoover” you when she parts ways with penniless Mr. Viagra.

    • The Florida Keys are great at this time of year! Fishing in the flats, scuba diving, all kinds of good. Don’t forget to go watch the sunset on the deck as the water is turned into gold while the sun drops below the horizon. Have a Singapore Sling or something cool while you’re there.

  • I needed this so much today… The ex told me, with such vehemence I know that he agreed, that the OW thought I was ‘some kind of ogre’. Talking with her had ‘toppled Artist off the pedestal’. I internalised that and spent some very, very dark times believing that I must be a lifeless, joyless, domineering and arrogant person.
    Now I know different. When it comes to the emotional affair I know that it was all his choices and I was an extraordinarily kind, patient, rational, loving person. I did love him – not just his humour, energy, beliefs and interests that chimed so well with mine, his physicality and his sexy nose, but HIM. (As I saw him at the time.)
    But with our teenagers… now one has no self-esteem and suicidal thoughts, and another struggles with life, feeling entitled and wanting to be away from the family (the third, thank God, is fine), here it comes again – this must be my fault, I didn’t love them enough, I didn’t pay them enough attention. I trust that I didn’t suck when it came to the affair, but I can’t do the same when it comes to the kids, despite knowing I would have done all I could. I don’t know how far back it goes, his disordered influence on our lives. And I don’t know how far Chumpy me colluded with it. And I can’t tell now whether I’ve been the stable, loving, supportive influence for my kids that I wanted to be. Is this still a mindfuck hangover? Therapy for me too methinks.

    • My single biggest regret in life is that I chose so poorly when picking a father for my children. It is also the thing I cannot let go. I brought him into my life and by extension theirs. The harm is inter-generational and I deeply fear they will repeat my mistakes despite my coaching since then and my intense efforts to mold them. It is hard to know exactly how much of the mindfuckery spilled all over them.

      • I share your grief over this Jojobee and Artist. My kids are listening to the crap their sperm donor spews about me. It is heartbreaking and I just about bite my tongue in two because I want to tell them all so badly but it would hurt them and hurt my relationship with them. My daughter displays some of her dads narcissistic tendencies while son won’t see him without his sister along. But still, both yip about me getting so much money for the house( which was my house by then as I bought out the turd). These are their dad’s words not theirs. I know it but it still cuts very deeply, as he is the one who stole from all of us. It is just the shit sandwich that keeps getting served.

    • My children are generally doing well, but I still feel sometimes that I failed them by putting ex’s needs first and trying to force them to be the people ex wanted them to be. I have since allowed them to be who they want to be and I believe they are doing well in spite of their parents, but they get all of the credit for that. Now I just do my best to support them in the choices they make as long as I don’t feel those choices will be destructive to them and they usually aren’t.

  • UC, do me a favor, please? Stop apologizing! Tell yourself this everyday-….I CANNOT FIX WHAT I DID NOT BREAK!!!!!! Dude, seriously? Re-read what you said. You have your own demons and you are booked for therapy for the next year….you are trying to make sense of the why because you still believe she is what you’ve always known her to as. SHE IS NOT OR EVER WAS WHAT SHE SOLD YOU ON!,,,this is the hard fact. She is a liar and a big time manipulator. She doesn’t care about this guy at all. He is merely a means of “escape”. There is a song by Godsmack called Bulletproof, you should listen to it. To give you an idea one of the verses says this….You’re addicted and so twisted that it’s freaking me out, distant eyes it’s no surprise you can do anything now. I need a way to separate but I’m telling you that nothing will ever be the same…honestly, it won’t be the same, ever again. I am sorry this happened to you but you need to VALUE yourself and say to yourself, “Baby, you ain’t worth the whiskey!!!!!

  • I really believe they trade down. My Dickhead went with a woman just a year older than him. He is 44. She has a trespassing charge from 5 years ago, and 8 years ago she was mixed with a bad dude that has multiple robbery charges. She drove to one heist but alleges that she knew didn’t know what was gong to happen. She was never charged.

    Me? I had one speeding ticket form 1984 (we won’t count the multiple warnings but no ticket). Yep, he traded down. But he always said he liked his women a little on the trashy side – his exact words.

    • Birds of a feather flock together, Mama!
      Listen to The Light from Disturbed. I promise you, it is very powerful and will speak volumes.

  • It literally has nothing to do with you. Keep in mind – supermodels, millionaire athletes, singers and movie stars get chumped on the regular. I remember the shock of finding out that Shania Twain was being cheated on.

    My STBXH liked hookers and I was able to see the photos of the ones he reached out to (he insisted they were rarely the same in person, wasn’t enough to stop him though). Anyhow, for a few minutes I tried to pin down his ‘type’ so I could reinforce the thought that there was something deficient in me. Nope. Asian, black, white, short, thick, thin. Prim looking to street trash – if you had a cheap hourly rate Creature was into you (literally).

    I think we sometimes try to take ownership as a way of thinking we had some control over the situation. Not so.

  • Artist, the ‘toppled Artist off the pedestal’ is actually a huge red flag that indicates you were caught in the narcissist’s relationship cycle. It’s not normal to put someone on a pedestal. How can we have relationships between equals when we start out with overvaluation? Because putting someone on a pedestal is textbook overvaluation. Where do you go from the worship of a person? It’s interesting that the OW is the one knocking you off the pedestal. That couldn’t happen unless the cheater had already started to devalue you. He wouldn’t have been trash-talking you with the OW otherwise.

    Logic says your X is very disordered and his relationships follow the Idealization/Devaluation/Discard pattern. And that’s the father these kids have.

    Therapy can help. I hope the kiddo with suicidal ideation is seeing someone with the expertise in helping adolescents. And it will help you to get therapy, too. Often my own therapy sessions are about how to solve my actual life problems (e.g., how to interact with difficult people).

  • If the point of cheating is, ultimately, for the narcissistic cheater to be worshipped and adored, then it doesn’t matter who is doing the worshipping. The deal is they don’t want a relationship between equals. They want superiority. Control. Centrality. Lots and lots of kibbles (attention, adulation, approval).

  • Opportunity.

    So many cheater choices have to do with bad boundaries combined with the thrill of strange and (relatively) easy conquest.

    It’s NOT about the chump!!

  • Which brings us back to the corollary to “Trust that they suck” which is “Trust that you don’t suck”. That one is really difficult for us chumps sometimes.

    You might think there is something wrong with you if she picked such an obvious loser over you. Her turd doesn’t even sparkle. To the rest of the world it is proof that there is something seriously wrong with her, however. She must be crazy and you are better off without crazy in your life. You must be a good man to have tried to be a good husband to someone so clueless, but if she couldn’t appreciate what she had then it is her loss and you are free to go find someone who is more at your level. You will certainly be able to do better than what you had. No downgrades for you. Do be wary, however, because she is almost certain to hoover at some point. Don’t let that happen. She made her bed, now she can go lie in it.

    My ex’s turd is a sparkly turd which did have me thinking initially that maybe he had good reason to discard me in favor of her. I don’t know that she is prettier than me (although not uglier either), but she does have better fashion sense, straight hair and she’s tall. She is also a SAHM and he resented me for years for refusing to take that route (he never mentioned it until after our first child was born). She has five children and he resented me for only being willing to have three (again he didn’t mention his desire to have at least four until long after we were married). She also takes a tyrannical approach to child rearing that seems to be in keeping with the approach he wanted me to take (somehow our children are turning out awesome anyway). She socializes with the “right” people. She also has perfect grammar and I am a terrible speller (although I bet I could derive circles around her in math). She is definitely better at folding laundry and probably never puts anything in the dryer that shouldn’t go in the dryer. Eventually, however, I was able to look beyond the surface and realize that I have many more life accomplishments than she has, my children are more awesome than hers (not that I have anything against her kids of course) and I am not a selfish slut who fucks other people’s husbands while still married herself and tears families apart for personal gain. She has to have a man in her life because she couldn’t handle life on her own. She couldn’t just leave her own cheating husband without first poaching someone else’s. I, on the other hand, can look after myself and my kids even if I hadn’t planned on it. I can adapt. I am better than her and ex is an idiot who traded tarnished silver for fool’s gold and he thinks he got a good deal. That makes him too stupid to be my husband.

    • The OW whore face was getting cheated on by her husband , divorced him and was fucking my husband within a month.
      She’s so fugly that when I shower my sister her picture, she gasped, jumped in the air and almost fell off her chair. I’m not kidding one little bit either. Make a train take a dirt road ugly. He’s so gross that he fucks that thing.

    • Thank you ChumpInRecovery! I wasn’t told how I was a failure in his eyes until well after his involvement with his skank. And I STILL didn’t even know he had a skank on the side. He hid it very well. I kept trying to change my behavior because he didn’t feel appreciated, he didn’t feel loved. I’d give him more space, I’d give him gifts or foot rubs — anything to make him feel more loved and appreciated. I see it all now as his way of justifying his behavior. To this day (he has married his skank) I’m sure he feels justified for cheating on me. And her with her ex. I’m sure the skank’s ex-husband was also made to feel inadequate as well. But that’s okay now. He’s not my problem anymore! Yay!!

      • Yup. We have all been in that position of trying to do better and be better in order to be acceptable to our perpetually dissatisfied spouses only to feel like we were always getting it wrong and it must somehow be the result our own ineptitude. We were too busy spackling their behavior to recognize that they were the problem.

    • Can someone explain the Hoovering? Everywhere I go I hear people say “They always come back.” Even after divorce? Why?? They’ve already left! If they’re so adamant that OM is the greatest and the Chump is just old news, this doesn’t make sense to me. (forgive me, I may have spent too much time talking to the RIC)

      • They don’t all hoover. If their suckitude aligns well with the AP’s suckitude then they may well stay together and leave the chump alone. Some won’t hoover because it requires admitting they made a mistake. Many do hoover, however, when they discover that the grass isn’t greener over there after all. This typically happens sooner rather than later because later requires too much effort to win the chump back and they know it. Some totally clueless cheaters might try it though. In the case of UC, however, it seems like there is a high probability that his wife will hoover because they haven’t been separated long and it is particularly obvious that her OM really doesn’t have much to offer her long term. I could be wrong, but it seems likely in this case.

        • To be clear, hoovering is not a sign that the cheater is sorry, has learned a lesson or had a character transplant or just made a silly mistake and is back for good and will never stray again. It just means that, for now, they think the chump may in fact be better than or more useful than the AP after all. Sometimes it is the AP that ends it and the chump seems like the softest place to land to get over being dumped. Once back, they will likely stray again because whatever is wrong with them that caused them to cheat in the first place has not been fixed unless they come back after years and years of therapy.

        • What happens to the ones whose suckitudes align? Do they live cheatily ever after or is there a day of reckoning in someone’s future?

          Somehow I’ve allowed myself to be gaslighted into thinking not only that it was my fault but that AP is just all around a better person. From what I know of him, he’s a lot like me, except for that one time when he cheated on his wife with a married woman…

          Looking forward to Meh.

          • Hard to say. Sometimes Karma strikes in obvious ways, sometimes it is more subtle and sometimes it never happens. My ex is still with Schmoopie. I think he made a bad trade. His family and most of his former friends think so too but he seems to think he made the right decision. They may or may not be together forever and they may or may not in fact be happy but it doesn’t matter. They still suck. The same is true in your situation. The other thing that is true is that you and I don’t suck. Believe it and what happens to them becomes less important. If we allow ourselves to move on, we can still live good and happy lives whether Karma strikes down our cheaters and their Schmoopies or not. That is what meh is all about.

          • Think about two cheaters in a relationship? They both already know that the other is willing to cheat for just about any reason. Who the hell wants to play relationship police every day?

            You can’t worry about the day of reckoning or whether the karma bus will come out of nowhere and leave a trail of carnage behind it.

            For the first few months after D-day, I was consumed by thoughts that I was a bad wife. If only I had done this, or done that, or not done this or not done that. None of it would have mattered. We loved our spouses and we didn’t cheat on them even when they let us down, made us angry or caused us to cry. We didn’t cheat!!!!!

            Once the pain abates, you will start looking back on moments in your marriage and little light bulbs will go off. You will start to analyze things in a different light, certain episodes will make more since and you will start to realistically look at her and who she will is. It takes time. I’m almost 9 months out and just starting to realize that he was a fuck-up. I’m not at Meh and I don’t see me getting there in the next year but I do see me starting to enjoy life again and that makes me happy.

      • Hoovering is about making us into a back up plan in case adulting gets too hard, or consequences of divorce are more painful than anticipated. Sometimes its to keep the thrill of triangulation going so everyone keeps cheater central. Often it’s testing the chump to see if they are still susceptible to gaslighting and charm channel. They don’t all hoover.

    • ChumpInRecovery. I love that saying, “she traded tarnished silver for fools gold” my lord how true. So, so true.

  • The only criteria a cheater needs is a willing participant. It does not matter what they look like, their financial stability, their career or who they are. My now ex husband had told me during one of our heated arguments about his continuing affair, “if it wasn’t her it would have been someone else”. At the time, I was totally rocked by this admission. But now, I know it to be absolutely true!

    UC- please remember it was never about you! It is about them!!!!

  • My cheater left me and the children for a Fat Midget. He’s an old AP from a previous engagement she
    destroyed a couple of years before she ever met me (Fat Midget was her fiance’s best friend) Fat Midget
    is descended from a long line of in-bred simpletons and at 43 still lived with his parents.

    Pre D-Day I was constantly accused of being old and boring (cheater is 11 years my junior)
    Being old and boring consisted of:

    Being educated
    Being employed by the same company for 28 years
    Managing the family fininaces (quite a challenge with chetaer’s addiction to vodka & cigarettes)
    Making sure the kids were fed & healthy, attend dental/optician chekups, preparing packed-lunches etc.
    Attending parent evenings (chetaer stopped bothering once the kids entered high school)
    Doing all laundry & ironing
    Doing all household cleaning
    Doing all decorating/home improvements
    Doing all gardening
    Spending countless hours researchng/planning family holidays (4star all-inclusive or fear her wrath!)
    Planning our retirement and senior years – I’m still relocatiing to Florida 🙂

    I’m still doing all the above because you know what? i’m a fucking amazing individual!!

    • You sound amazing! Why couldn’t I have found boring? Instead, I found a dynamic, handsome, charming cheater. And 30 years later I was dumped. But that’s okay. I’m happy and cheater free!

    • Us chumps pick wrong, that’s all there is to it. Most of us are caring, successful people who pick someone to stomp all over us. Ever the optimist who thinks it will work out. We want to be loved by these horrible people. Why can’t chumps pick chumps more often and leave the cheaters to themselves? I’d love to find a guy like you instead of the lying cheaters I’ve ended up with.

  • After 34 years married he found a Owhore with enormous breasts. I was size double D but I lost a breast to cancer then had a breast reduction.

    He didn’t find me appealing any longer. But Karma hit., whore died last year. He quickly moved into an 83 year olds apartment. Said he fell out of love with me because I “nagged”. 71 year old psychopath living on viagra. So sad ????

    • Kathleen I got the “you nag” thing too–yup I nagged him to stop sticking it in strange, stop stealing and spending all of our savings on himself, and stop abusing me. What a nag!

  • It’s 7:28 am and I’m laughing out loud reading Tracy’s response to Ultimate Chump. My kids clearly think something is very wrong with me. Tracy kicked ass as she always does.

    Ultimate Chump… There is no excuse for cheating. It’s not your fault she decided to be a discussing idiot and make a fool of herself. Trust me, it would not make you feel any better if she hooked up with a multi millionaire or a hobo living under a bridge. It’s her choice behavior that is the issue. Perhaps she’s the one that needs a year of therapy.

  • At the risk of copping to untangling her Skein of FuckedUppery, I’d guess that what was ideal and wonderful and enjoyable for you was high-pressure, for her. Being “good, responsible, and decent” was something she had to work very hard to achieve.

    Poor Little Sausage was tired. EXHAUSTED at being a decent human being. The pressure was too great. She didn’t want to try so hard anymore and by scraping the bottom of the barrel, she can now be the shitty person she really is and still be exalted by The Loser and those in his sphere.

    It’s like being only Not A Meth User in a neighborhood of junkies. You don’t have to try very hard, to seem amazing. What a life goal, eh?!


    • I got a little taste of this. My cheater complained she always had to be so perfect around me it was exhausting.

      You often hear that APs say “I can really be myself around X”. I wonder if this is shorthand for “When we met we were betraying our spouses: he accepts me even though he knows I destroyed my family and betrayed my spouse.” Maybe meeting under those conditions – the nadir of moral failure – really IS liberating for them? no need to pretend to any kind of standard of behavior.

      • I would bet that they aren’t themselves around anyone. There really is no person behind that mask. Just a bunch of hot air that takes whatever form is necessary for their success. The Dickhead once quipped how it irritated him that exwife and kids would change to suit whatever partner they were with at the time. We all do that to some extent but the disordered do whatever is necessary to set the hook. He’s is just as guilty but he does it for purely selfish reason.

      • Oh, totally. My cheater even admitted he was into the OW because she was a drunk and a slut with no moral compass. He was therefore free to be a degenerate overgrown adolescent living in fantasyland when he was with her. She never judged or criticized because she had no standards. With me, OTOH, he was supposed to behave like a responsible, rational adult. He didn’t want to. Cheaters are people with arrested emotional development. They bitterly resent the fact that they are expected to be grown ups, to behave responsibly and to care about others. This is due to their massive sense of entitelment which tells them that rules governing good relational conduct are for other people to follow, but they get a special exemption. Affairs give them the freedom to be immature selfish assholes because APs are also immature selfish assholes. It is, I think, a great relief to them to be able to let that inner scumbag out with a like-minded person.

  • I’m so sorry, Ultimate Chump. Would it have been easier on you had the OM looked like a movie star and was rich? Nope. It wouldn’t. The OW in my case was the opposite of me to include being skinny. Her attributes made me feel even worse about myself until I realized everything that CL was saying, ‘It’s all about entitlement.’ You’re not even a factor in the equation. I joke that I could have looked like Marilyn Monroe and have written the Kama Sutra and my ex-dick still would have cheated on me. I’m glad you’re in therapy. Maybe with a good therapist you will also come to the same conclusion.

  • It is essential to Trust that They Suck.

    Say it to yourself often, and eventually you’ll start to see that this is the truth.

    They suck, and their APs are always downgrades with respect to character.

    I have said elsewhere (and often) that I had to spend a lot of time lining up ducks due to my financial position. However, when I was lining up those ducks, I was still spackling for him. I knew I had to divorce CheaterX for the affair because if he found the justification to do it once, he could justify doing it again.

    However, I spackled a bit, telling myself that he was in an emotionally bad place. I told myself that he’d lost his father the year before. His mother had died a few years previously (and he was still actively mourning her). His workplace was dysfunctional, and staffer Schmoopie was there for at least 8-10 hours a day being sympathetic to his situation. She, on the other hand, was a single mom whose daughter had a life-threatening congenital heart defect. From the get-go he felt sorry for her and tried to help her out. He always liked to play Knight in Shining Armor and I could see her being the Damsel in Distress.

    So in my inner narrative, I wrote over his behavior as his being in an emotionally weak place and Schmoopie, who had a track record of relationships with losers, saw this basically nice guy.


    It was only when I was interviewing a lawyer and mentioned that CheaterX had co-signed a car loan for Schmoopie that the penny dropped. The lawyer’s jaw dropped when she heard that CheaterX had co-signed a car loan, saying that Schmoopie must have seen him coming a mile away. I started to respond with my inner narrative of Schmoopie as targeting him for being a basic nice guy, but when I said, “who has a track record of dating losers” and I was going to finish with how he was being a nice guy, I suddenly saw things clearly and said “and still does.”

    Water seeks its own level. Your Cheater cheats because they can. Assuming the AP knows your Cheater is married, your Cheater makes the decision to cheat with someone who’s okay with the cheating. The AP might have the body of someone able to grace the cover of GQ or Cosmopolitan, or they may be the antithesis of popular conceptions of beauty. The AP may be really wealthy or dirt poor. The common denominator is that they’re okay with cheating.

    It’s not that you’re “that” bad; it’s that they are not good enough.

  • My cheater XH only had one requirement to cheat. A skank with open arms and legs. His best friend told me after we split, that if a woman wants to fuck cheater xh, he HAD to fuck them. Isn’t that a nice characteristic of a husband?

  • Amy Grant denies she cheated with Vince Gill. Garth Brooks and Trisha Yearwood deny they were screwing around while on tour together for years before they each left their spouses and later got married. For the Amy Grant story, she said that Vince showing up helped her see how awful her marriage was. For a moment, let’s imagine this is all true (ahem).

    So is that what happened to me with my X Asshat’s OW#1 and OW#2? They came around and showed my X how awful I was because they were so wonderful? Were they the spotlights illuminating my flaws?

    In both cases he lied about there being “someone else.” With OW#1, when asked direct questions about that co-worker, he lied. For MONTHS. And her never said he was unhappy with me.

    With OW#2 he just abandoned me. Totally underground until he poofed. We were making active plans to move to the SW for my early retirement and had just declared that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. He never said he was unhappy with me.

    He lied every single day he stayed with me. He had so many opportunities to declare his discontent. And in the end he simply abandoned me out of the blue and only then came the tirades and screaming and declarations of how awful I was. The cowardly liar who abandoned his wife of 28 years decided I was the one with all the problems. Convenient, isn’t it.

    He is an emotionally retarded and easily distracted leaky bucket man-baby. He wasted years of my life because he couldn’t own his shit. And per him, that is all my fault. How can you even begin to work with that?

    • Oh, I forgot to note how this fits in with the constant, “I/We haven’t been happy for years” and the “I never loved you” narrative bullshit they all seem to spew once they get caught. News to you, right? When Schmoopie showed up with their glorious spotlight they just lit everything the fuck right up, didn’t they? The betrayed spouse is Just. So. Awful.

      But of course the daily lie of omission continued before they were caught. The sneaking around and denials and gaslighting and abuse must occur. That is your tell. I should have dumped him after OW#1.

      • OK, gotta do the awkward reply-to-my-own post thing. Anybody been to a Garth Brooks concert? I really like the music, it is a lot of fun, but after my divorce and the slipping of the X’s mask I see him completely differently.

        GB does this same thing over and over–he tells every audience that they are the most incredible audience he has ever had, completely over the top with his expressions of how unique they are and how they are making him feel better than any crowd he has ever seen. They are the best, the loudest, the most fun. He acts genuine about it. He looks amazed up in the stands and gives the glory to the fans. He spends a whole lot of time doing that and he pulls off that “Wow, you are the best fans I have ever been with” look in the monitors.

        He love bombs every crowd, and it is F-A-K-E.

        Once upon a time I would just go with it, it is a show after all and he is here to make us feel good. After the mask of my X asshat slipped I can’t stand it. I find that fakey behavior super creepy now that I have been through the brutal discard of a narcopath.

        So Garth’s concert routine is just like cheaters. They love bomb the one they are with and then get not the bus and drive to Cleveland, quickly forgetting about Indianapolis. Because Cleveland is the BEST.

  • Ultimate Chump,
    I think you were blind to her flaws. There is something “off” about someone who cheats and ends up with a guy like that. If you really start to think about it, you’ll realize she was messed up before she ran away with the dirty old guy. Love is blind. The most important thing you need to do is work on why you ended up with someone like this. I’m a shrink and I agree with Tracy that other shrinks need to stop blaming chumps, it’s absurd! If this is what your therapist is doing then you need to find another one. There were 1000 guys she could have ran away with but chose this loser instead. Self-destructive maybe?

    My current husband’s ex-wife did the same thing. Left a handsome, successful kind man for a fat bipolar penniless guy on disability and heavy medication. She WANTS to be treated poorly. She wants someone she can baby and “fix.” It’s been 10 years since they divorced and she’s still single with an endless string of loser boyfriends.

    We all wonder “what was so bad about me” but it’s not us, it’s them.

  • Yes. It’s also about the thrill of getting one over on the chump; *she* doesn’t know what *we* know, snigger, snigger !

  • One day after a year of wallowing in pain and sadness of being left while having surgery, and having to deal with lawyers and the bills and having to give up my home and put my stuff in Storage and move to another state and start all over again – I woke up and realized that while I missed my house and having my own family, I didn’t miss him. Him picking fights so he could fake storm off to her. His job pressures, his problems, his weight, his bitching about he was tired of My from scratch meals cause he wanted something different, and the multitude of ways I didn’t measure up. I had never missed him since the day he moved out. But with all the other stuff littering my brain, it wasn’t until time and distance gave me that lightbulb moment and I really was free! Free of his emotional tyranny and demands. Wishing you the best for when you reach that moment of clarity.

  • UC, most if the time, the AP is a downgrade from the spouse. That’s likely because cheaters have a hard time finding people with a lot going for them who are willing to fool around with married people. People with a lot going for them can find suitable single people and they don’t want a cheater. APs always suck. Look under the surface of even the best looking, wealthiest example of a cheater enabler and you will find some variety of malignant scumbag. So in all probability, all this loser has that you don’t have is that he is willing to enable a cheater and be with a cheater. For an asshole, it feels freeing to be with another asshole. She will cheat on him as well. The bottom line is that they don’t cheat because of what’s lacking in us. They cheat because of what’s lacking in themselves. They are empty voids looking to fill themselves up with something external because internally, they aint got shit. Always remember that cheating is about the cheater just like stealing is about the thief and rape is about the rapist.

  • This is so true! I was told I had brought this on myself?! Well really; I was the sole motivation for plunging your limp dick (ED) & saggy syphilitic balls (Tracy’s words, not mine!) into someone else’s wife (SAHM-22 years younger)! Really what was she thinking? Together they hand grenaded the lives of 6 children- but it was the best sex they’d ever had! She offered him a life time license (lasted 3 months!)
    He wrote and thanked me for being a wonderful loving wife and a great friend! WTF! Why do they do it? Because that’s who they are!
    I have a great professional skill set; care about how I look and am well educated and interesting. She had never held down a job and could not find her way out of a paper bag. She was pretty; but empty. And now they are both alone; with more burned bridges than WW2! Yes our house was on fire and those 2 stepped right into it! They burned down their lives.
    I have massive cost of lost opportunity (36 yr relationship/27 yes married) but I’ve been set free and my adult children and I have a rare opportunity to build a strong authentic family who are bonded in our precious moments, forged in the fire of our circumstances. My soul is broken in ways I can’t rebuild. At 61 I doubt there is a new good quality relationship in the wings for me and I am at peace with my life, with me and with that realisation. UC; believe in yourself and rejoice! All too often; we don’t get a second chance!

    • Don’t give up on new relationship if that’s what you want. I’m 55, was with my cheater 32 years and am less than six months out of dday. I just got a date for Saturday with a guy I met online. He seems as if he could be a genuinely good guy from the conversations we’ve had. You never know what’s in store for you. Just keep hoping and trying. If you actually don’t want a relationship and will be happy without one, great. Just please don’t assume you can’t have one just because of your age. So what if you’re 61? The guy I’m going out with is 59 and he’s looking for love. Why not you? You have decades of life left to live. You deserve to get whatever you need to be happy. Go after it.

    • Ozziechamp-we have similar stories- I’m 67 and thinking it will be tough finding my great love for this season. But it will still be better than one more moment with fuckwit hugs

  • Long time lurker, rare commenter. Currently can’t stop the tears of relief upon reading today’s column. Years out from DD2, divorced finalized over a year ago and still needed to hear this and needed to hear it in CL’s unique tough love (emphasis on the LOVE as I feel her affection for chumps really shines through in this one) voice.

  • Cheating is a cowardly act. My ex wasn’t man enough to do the work on the relationship and he had to make sure he had someone waiting in the wings. God forbid you have an adult conversation. He lied to the ho too. Now he’s her problem.

  • I’m curious about the ‘demons’ Ultimate Chump.
    Often times we find ourselves discarded when our needs are the greatest.

    Whatever level the cheater sinks to is right where they belong.

  • My fuckwit definitely has a type. Women who are 5 foot 2, 130 pounds, and smart. The first one looked like me but was exotic because she was Serbian and flattered his ego, and the second one is from NYC and flatters his ego and really is like me in looks and mannerisms to the point it is a bit creepy. But she doesn’t have a mentally ill child or expect him to get off the couch. Must be true love!

  • “Dick Van Wrinkle.” OMG, I am dying laughing!

    I think it’s since been removed from any of SNL’s official online sites after an outcry from so-called Men’s Rights activists, but their pre-Christmas show had a skit called “Dad Christmas,” which actually is applicable to anyone experiencing their first Christmas divorced from a cheating fuckwit, male or female. In any case, at one point the Mom was calling her kids while they were with Dad and asking about the OW, rolling her eyes. “So, she’s some kind of young bimbo?” and her son replies, in shock, “No Mom, she’s like, REALLY old!” At which point the Mom says, “WHAT?!!” as her face explodes.

    What I found so telling about that detail is that whoever wrote or contributed to the sketch has personal experience with the narcissistic cheater’s “downgrade.” How they will gravitate towards literally anyone who will give them new kibbles, even if that person can in no way, shape, or form measure up to the character, accomplishments, and/or looks of the spouse they just discarded.

  • Fellow chumps, I’m sitting on the beach In Waikiki..alone. I love this message and totally agree. This was a vacation spot for us which we loved. Except for a couple minor meltdowns, I am feeling good. I think the meltdowns are me feeling sorry for myself that fuckwit treated me so disrespectfully. Yes he did that and I am so disappointed my retirement didn’t turn out as I dreamed and I am traveling alone. But I have never cheated on him or even came close to it. I assume no responsibility for our marriage implosion. I promised myself I would still do things I love with or with out a companion. I do hope to grow a new group of friends who are as free as I am now that I am newly retired and divorced but for now…happy to be warming under the sun out of Seattle rain and without him. Hugs

  • When the behavior doesn’t add up, I find that CL’s advice on kibble so invaluable.
    Follow the kibble.
    It may not be at full-“meh”, but I refuse to be anyone’s human-sized Costco supply of kibble.
    I once had a brilliant, but insane landlady who would buy a 50lb. bag of cat kibble weekly. She would slash that bag open in her back yard and a mound of pellets would emerge-like a prayer call for every feral animal within a five-mile radius.
    Her eyes would pinwheel with glee as the raccoon families feasted.
    Eventually, things got out of hand.
    Kirkland, Sheba, Meow-Mix, whatever’s “on sale”-all they smell is kibble.

  • I really love what is being said here today.

    I wholeheartedly believe that “people in a relationship fight their demons together”.
    That is brilliantly stated.

    You tried. She abandoned.

    I feel in hindsight I had many faults. Now I know in his mind he was belittling me for those faults, instead of helping me grow. If you’ve “got it” and the other one doesn’t, it’s natural to show them the way. He never, ever did that for me. I spent over a decade wishing he would sit me down to talk about “our problems”, hell, even “my problems” would have been acceptable. But he’d withdraw, of course, every time I’d try to address any issue. Then the nerve to tell me “he didn’t feel like he could talk to me”. Of course he didn’t, the whole point was to keep me in the dark, what frank discussion…?

    He was impeccable in making it look daily like life was perfectly enjoyable never dealing with anything that wasn’t the single moment. I thought because he looked happy, that his way was the right way, that I was too intense, too preoccupied. It doesn’t help that it’s 99% of the advice these days. Don’t worry, let go, live in the present. Lotta good did it do me…

  • It seems pretty common: You get betrayed and then start looking at yourself and start to believe you played a role. And, the cheater is highly invested in convincing you of the same , as well as other people. No one is perfect. No marriage is without issues. But, how many of us were unwilling to address concerns with our spouse, given the chance. I bet very few.
    One thing that I think we need to keep in mind is that once they start cheating, they start treating you like shit. So, say it has gone on for 6 months or a year, the relationship was bad during that time. But, that time is freshest in your mind, so one tends to think that this period represents the entirety of the relationship when thinking back on it to see if there were issues.
    I know for me, now that I can date the onset of the cheating, I can see that that is the point at which conflict and meanness from my XW escalated. Prior to that we seemed OK ( this was in my firs marriage. My second wife who cheated took off her borderline mask fairly soon after we married and I was enmeshed).
    But, in my first marriage, I do not think my XW began serially cheating until about 6 years in or so. Up to that point, the main stressor was my disabled son’s health condition and his developmental delay. But, once my XW started drinking like a fish and having sex with strange men she would meet in bars, she was meaner than a rattlesnake to me- belittling, critical, condescending, contemptuous. It was hell and I had no idea why as I did not know of the cheating and, as an uninitiated, would never have figured out the cognitive dissonance/martial history rewrite anyway, had I known.
    So, for a long time, when I tried to figure out what caused the cheating, my freshest memory was of he two or three year period before discovery where my XW was a mean, sullen, asshole to me. And, I, sort of, chalked the cheating up to her long term dissatisfaction from the inception of the relationship.
    But, now I see she was not always dissatisfied and that I had been an imperfect, but, generally, very good husband and father.
    So, really take a look at who they become when they cheat. You could no more please one of them than you could please a weasel.

  • Hey CN wanna let me know if you’ve ever heard this version of kicking off the good ol’ pick me dance, yeeee haw!

    This wretch said in a fit of rage, “You pushed me away, now win me back!!!” Mearly a week after I found out she was fucking Grandpa Fuckstickles.

    Therefore I promptly (like a chump) accepted her offer to dance, and dance I did, like a fuck, for 4 long months. Except just like in real life, my dance skills are on par with Napoleon Dynamite. I was behind the 8 ball like a crack whore on Scott St. I could not win, though fight I did. Stay hard as a rock CN!

  • Dear Ultimate Chump. I too was chumped by my ex-wife, and in my case, she decided to continue a relationship w/a co-worker who she knew had previously cheated on his ex-wife or GF. You may or may not go through a period where you question anything and everything that you did to “force her to cheat on you.” It’s natural to try and think back to what you think you could have done to “save” your marriage. No marriage is perfect, because no one going into a marriage is perfect. As a couple, you are you supposed to take the good w/the bad, and you are supposed to uplift each other, not find ways to screw each other (I know, bad pun).

    Focus on you and getting your life back together. Luckily for you, there were no children to come out of this marriage, because they probably hurt more than you would. This group is here for you if you need it.

    Take care!

    Happily divorced since ‘ Aug 2018.

  • Folks, there’s nothing wrong with being disabled (unless he was cheating the system) penniless (if it wasn’t his fault) or older. There is something wrong with cheating.

  • I agree 100%. I believe he is cheating the system. He broke his leg years ago, that is his disability, lost his job, had to care for his dying mother blah blah blah. I’ve seen this man walk, not so much as a limp. I may just be biased here, but I believe the “poor me” tactic came into play on this one.

    • To add to that. I know it’s hard to believe that a man who would knowingly pursue a married woman would cheat the system….
      Lack of morals and ambition are not a disability, they are character flaws.

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