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Soul Blazing and Navel Gazing

Once upon a time, I took apart this execrable article —  “Is It Time to Change Our Ideas of Adultery and Marriage?”

This is all you need to know — the author of the Fluff-Po clickbait, Lisa Haisha, lists her profession as “soul blazer.”

Guess what! Lisa does think it’s a good time to rethink our ideas about marriage and cheating.

…When you consider the historical context of marriage, isn’t being shocked by adultery a bit of an overreaction?

To those of you still vomiting after D-Day — hey, put it in a historical context. Henry VIII had six wives (and a few beheadings) and he wasn’t a fan of marriage and monogamy either. This is bigger than us. Please explain to your heartbroken 9-year-old when she asks why she has to spend Christmas in four places that hey, we are all just victims of an outdated modality. I’m sure she’ll understand.

Adultery isn’t shocking, until the day it happens to you and suddenly it ceases to be an interesting theoretical construct. I would argue the only people who are not shocked by infidelity when it happens to them are people who aren’t that deep to begin with. In other words, Lisa Haisha’s clientele — Hollywood “suits.” (Yes, this is on her website.) Superficial people, people who don’t love with their whole hearts because they had their hearts surgically replaced years ago with some botox-ed, gluten-free, heart-like substance. Savvy media creatures who don’t get chumped, they just rebrand.

Before you think Lisa heartless herself, she has a disclaimer that, well, cheating and lying are rather a bummer and uncool.

Of course, no one can deny that when you lie and do something behind another person’s back, you are doing something wrong. You’re breaking an agreement, and that lacks integrity. You’re breaking trust with the other person, which is most definitely hurtful. But in the course of a long term relationship, taking into account the practical realities of our human need to experience life on our own, or through experiences with other platonic or romantic relationships, perhaps a new kind of conversation can unfold with your spouse or partner where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage, so the negative and hidden behaviors associated with adultery don’t take place.

In other words, it’s okay to break someone’s trust because …. blather.

I’ve spent over 20 years as an editor and we have this no-no we call “smothering your verbs.” Lisa has positively pickled hers. Consider this epic run on sentence and tell me if you can figure out WTF she means.

But in the course of a long term relationship, taking into account the practical realities of our human need to experience life on our own, or through experiences with other platonic or romantic relationships, perhaps a new kind of conversation can unfold with your spouse or partner where you jointly communicate your needs and set reasonable and practical parameters of what is and isn’t allowed in your marriage, so the negative and hidden behaviors associated with adultery don’t take place.

I think she’s trying to say it’s okay to cheat and lie if you have a “need to experience life.” (Uh, who doesn’t? The alternative to experiencing life is experiencing death). She gets a little vague about these experiences, except to say they might be platonic! or romantic! But hey, be cool and have a conversation first.

Well, Lisa, I agree with you. People should have honest conversations about the kind of open relationships they want. And here’s an interesting trend over a couple millennia — people don’t do that! Nope, they’ve been partnering up for centuries with all sort of rules and shit. Back in Henry VIII’s day you couldn’t get a divorce unless you created your own church, or orchestrated a beheading. It’s those simpler times I’m sure you long for, Lisa. But Henry VIII had a straightforward conversation — give me a male heir or you’re dead — and fat lot of good it did him.

I don’t know what mythical planet you live on where wives once had multiple husbands — is there any known case of this? But I’ll admit, polygamy has worked pretty well for the patriarchy.

But Lisa, you’re a complete fuckwit if you think people cheat because they don’t have conversations.

I always tell my clients to create a vision plan of what they want their marriage to look like and what they’d both be okay with.

Ask Chump Nation how that “vision plan” is working for us. Lovely theory, Lisa, But we all thought we had that conversation about what we were okay with — marriage vows. Then we discovered — holy shit! we were the only one playing by that set of rules. We had a conversation with a liar. Newsflash. Cheaters lie, Lisa.

Infidelity is about entitlement. The deceit IS the high. It’s gaining advantage over another person. All the kibbles for me! None for you! Cheaters aren’t having a conversation with you because they don’t want a level playing field. Once you realize that cheating isn’t about self actualization or WTFever it is you life coaches are peddling, this shit is pretty easy to understand. They cheat because they want to. Because they have crap life skills. Because they’re narcissistic creeps.

However, I really appreciate your vision that we should all be more like Japan.

In fact, I once asked several men why they regularly visited hostess clubs (night clubs that employ female staff to act like “rent-a-girlfriends” to men), and they all said similar sentiments: “My wife is cool with it. That’s our culture. She doesn’t love me either. She’s thrilled that I’m gone and I’m not bugging her for sex or company.”

Two people, who don’t love each other, who are thrilled when the other is gone, and who don’t want sex with one another. Yes, that certainly is rethinking this marriage thing, Lisa.

“Rent-a-girlfriend.” Why of course. Why did we not think of this? I guess we weren’t having enlightened conversations. Why stop there? Why don’t we replace every human relationship that requires commitment with a pay-by-the-hour substitute? Abolish the military! Hire mercenaries! Down with parenthood! Hire rent-a-nanny! Or better yet, just herd the all the small kids into giant feed lots and raise ’em like cattle. (Extra premium for the free-range ones.)

Here I have spent years devoted to the care and feeding of a husband. To think I could’ve been “experiencing life on my own” and renting more entertaining company.

Oh hang on… I have experienced “life on my own” — it was called “being single.” I traded it for the love of a good man and a simple, middle-aged, drama-free, monogamous existence.

Works for me, Lisa. You ought to try it sometime.

This one ran before. But when was the last time I mentioned beheadings and the founding of the Anglican church? Rethink that monogamy, folks.  

Ask Chump Lady

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    • I wonder that about a lot of these therapists and counselors. If this was your Daughter/child would you be telling them to stay. To let the abuse continue. To let the lies and deceit continue. To risk your own health so that your partner can go “experience” life and bring those “experiences” back to you.
      No, No sane person would/should want their daughter to have to have that kind of “life experience”!

      But, we all know there are a lot of crazy people out there who support the narcissist life styles, who make everything seem normal in their world. Don’t let THEIR normal become yours!

      • I’m sure they would, unfortunately they have no depth to their feelings and zero empathy. It’s a shallow existence.

        • There are pieces I cannot finish reading. This was one of them. I was married 35 years and was fully invested – “all in.”

          I loved that man as best I could.But the more I forgave, the more I effectively enabled.

          And he married the OW, (I’m told he brags on facebook about how great their love and life is) and he has an income several times higher than mine but complained to our kids that I “took the vast amount of HIS savings”…

          Guess who put him thru medical school, internship, residency and fellowship AND mothered our 3 kids??? (You’re welcome Dr. Narkles).

          So these pieces quoting the tripe spewed by the RIC (of which I was a proud member for 12 FUCKING YEARS of idiocy, God forgive me), are

          – for lack of a better word – triggers.


          • 1st wife —

            You are not alone. Our stories are very similar, except that I was more naive and stupid than you. I was married for 43 years. Same stuff — med school, residency in US Navy, private practice, grad school for an MBA. I had 3 babies in 4 years. We moved 15 times in 43 years. I was essentially a single parent so that he was free to do all the important things he needed to do, which was anything away from our family and home. I took care of all the details in his life because he didn’t want to be bothered.

            You are correct — my doing all of it enabled him to continue his selfish life. I am free now because he abandoned me because I don’t make him happy and because we “got married too young.” He decided that after being married to me for over 40 years.
            He has been with the shack up for 3 years (that I know), and already they have moved 3 times because he has gotten canned and had to find new jobs. He has to keep working because he needs the income to keep the shack up with him — he got her by spending lots of (our) money on her.

            I believe self entitlement is rampant in the medical profession.

            • Yes. I’m in this camp too.
              Lots of dirty dealings among the hospital staff. Doctors doing nurses, nurses doing the doctors. Supported him on the homefront for 15 years while he got back on his feet after a harsh divorce. Yes, he worked long hours and many call shifts & weekends. But not all was ligit. Nope… I got chumped. So did my kids. We believed & invested in this man & he played us as naieve fools. Who knows what all the truths are. What we know is heartbreaking enough.

          • It’s all about what you failed to do for THEM -all these cheaters’ reasoning for what they did is the same – we all ’caused’ their behavior and that justifies it all. Until you say so I ‘deserved’ a STD? Can’t HIV be fatal? They don’t have an answer for that one!

            • Reminds me of God checking up on Adam and Eve.

              Uhhhhh… The snake! It told me it was fine!
              Um yeah! And this woman that YOU gave me misled me!
              God warned them, but it’s His fault now. Uhhuh. Sure.

              When I first really realized and pushed discussion, my cheating wife did exactly that sort of thing. That is, until she realized Something that was my fault… was still leading us toward there being Something! She changed tactics quick. And then changed tactics like 50 times.

              I never thought I’d say it, but growing up with a gaslighter parent occasionally pays off.

      • Case in point-my craycray therapist neighbor who I googled when she and her family moved in down the block. Big fan of Esther Perel and trains future therapists at one of the local unis. God help us.

      • Please don’t paint all of us (counselors and therapists) with the stupid RIC brush! We don’t all agree with this shtick, and many of us have been chumps and try to help other chumps gain the resources to act in their own best interest.

        • One of the reasons counselors get a lot of grief from chumps is that counselors are seduced or manipulated by our cheaters, then we get a double dose of mind-messing.

          I’m just waiting for the right time to get back at Dr. CamelHair and Dr. Big12Degree

          • A reminder to carefully interview one’s therapist so we don’t waste time or money with somebody who is either unhelpful or downright harmful. If you don’t feel like you’re making progress, it may be time to find another one.

            Somebody wisely pointed out that all counselors should be required to do coursework on personality disorders and narcissistic abuse. Ask to see a transcript of the courses your therapist studied for their degree.

            • To me its common sense to study personality disorders ~ if it weren’t for PD people the world would be a much better place. The PDs cause all the problems for everyone one else. How can you be a good therapist without understanding this?

  • What the author fails to realize is that entitled, disordered people who lack integrity will easily (dare I say happily) break any previously agreed-to arrangement or “vision plan” because . . . no integrity.

    All the openness and communication in the world won’t impact the mindset of someone who believes deep down that their special circumstances make them exempt from such things.

    • Oh, she knows it. She simply takes wads of their cash to tell them that it’s okay. They’re special.

      She may practice it herself on those she says she loves (until they are no longer useful or fail to amuse her) because, you know, they’re not THAT special.

    • They absolute believe that their special circumstances exempt them from the rules. I can’t tell you how many times I heard, “But I TRIED that, it didn’t work!” (Said in a whiny voice). Whether it was parenting or partnering, one failed attempt without instant perfect results, and he no longer had to keep trying or working on anything.

      When the going gets tough, cheaters bail on their responsibilities.

    • Not only that, they lie the whole time. They string you along gaslighting you convincing you that you both are in a monogamous relationship. The deceit IS the high. No triangle’s= no fun. Its a power trip.

    • “All the openness and communication in the world won’t impact the mindset of someone who believes deep down that their special circumstances make them exempt from such things”

      Just like Mark Z and his Facebook: he has a media outlet, but he does not take any responsibility as an editor. Because he is lazy, uncultured, arrogant and greedy. Irresponsible. But he paints himself as a connector of people. Openness and communication in the world ….

    • Exactly the point I wanted to make but you express it way better than I could.
      It’s like in mediation when the mediators assume your partner is reasonable and cooperative and you sit there looking at that fucking grin they have when they know they are fucking you around and are never going to follow any parenting plan.
      Learnt to avoid those situation a year and half ago.

    • I mean, seriously. How can someone who can’t keep marriage vows be trusted to do joint “visioning”?

  • Actually, there is one place where polyandry is practiced and may still be practiced. But that’s not adultery.

    The opposite of polygamy is polyandry, when a woman has multiple husbands. One group of people in the Himalayas practices this lifestyle.

    Lisa is a tool and tromping on chump hearts is not only part of her job description, it makes her happy. May she get a blistering case of PID.

    Sherman Oaks, CA must be so proud to have her in their midst.

    • I thought “polygamy” was the inclusive term and “polygyny” the opposite of “polyandry.” I’ve always thought the general use of the term “polygamy” when polygyny was the actual practice a convenient dodge for the patriarchy, as if it were both multiple wives AND husbands, but in practice it’s multiple wives only. Fair on paper, so to speak, but unfair in practice.

      • I don’t know – that was what I copied from the clip. At any rate, one woman with multiple husbands is not unheard of and even the norm in at least that one area.

        That’s not to say that cheating can’t and doesn’t occur – but who has the TIME when you have multiple husbands? {weak attempt at humor – I’m not being serious}

  • Ok but if your belief is this, that cheating is ok, being faithful and committed in a marriage isn’t a requirement, that is fine but let the other person know when you meet. The problem I have is marrying someone who supposedly has the same beliefs as you, who tells you they are also a chump, that they believe in communication, that they believe marriage is forever but then they cheat and then you were made to feel like you expected too much in asking for commitment or loyalty, everybody cheats. How about people just be upfront and honest, hey yes I believe in cheating over communication and yes I will love you through the good times but the bad times not so much and oh you thought marriage was forever? Wow! Here is an idea, why don’t they just get with people who are just like them and have the same “beliefs”???

    • Yes, but what happens when you have multiple conversations about cheating, lying, etc. and the person repeatedly INSISTS that they share the same values as you, that they would NEVER cheat, etc.

      When the cheating happens and is discovered, it is followed by abuse, blame shifting, rage, lack of remorse and empathy, etc. that is as bad if not worse than the actual affair. “Yes I cheated, but lots of people cheat”; “Your expectations were too high”; “You are so judgmental”; “You need to work on your anger and bitterness”…….

      I’m either supposed to believe that my ex was faithful to me for years and then blew up our marriage the very first chance he got to cheat; OR I have to realize that he was unfaithful to me for years while actively lying, deceiving, betraying, and gas lighting. Both options suck. Both suggest a selfish, disordered individual. What is “reasonable” or “practical” about that?

      • Oh yeah. We bonded initially over the infidelities of our parents that we were made to witness and even be unwilling accomplices to the behavior, and the subsequent horrendous divorces. Both swore that we would never do something like that, we’d always talk about any temptations or unmet needs.

        So when he accused me of having an affair I was sideswiped. It took me over 5 years of Proving to be Worthy to realize that he had been gaslighting me. And to this day – 3 years past divorce – I am still coming to grips with the idea that he probably was NEVER faithful to me.

      • That was mine too …add sad sausage! He’d say, “No contact is all I get after all these years together”? “What about me” “We need to be friends for the kids” “let’s work in communication”.

        I finally realized last month (1 year 1/2 after d day) that the chances of me finding him with the ow in a car was not his first cheat. Smh…I was blind!!!

      • Yeah, she was a gaslighter and a half.

        Same people, but they’re shapeshifters?

        Ah. Same kinds of evil spirits possessing different bodies? Some… people who you wish were great, suck?

        The true answers with this crap are all disappointing.

    • Exactly. If my STBX had been honest and said he just can’t see himself being honest and faithful for a lifetime of marriage, I would have gladly released him into the wild and would have never looked back. But these fuckwits know that no one worth having would buy into this so they lie and steal the best years of your life to fit their agenda.

    • How about you be an adult and say… This isn’t working for me anymore and I want a divorce rather than running around with a married man for 3 years, lying about where you’ve been and telling our oldest daughter to keep it a secret (which destroyed her relationship with her boyfriend because he wanted to tell me). X is Pathetic, but it was my fault because I complained too much. Not to mention she moved a thousand miles away from her suicidal son.

      • Said men and women on the site from all over the globe, “The cheater moved 1000 miles away?! You lucky dog you.”

        It limits the MORE things she can do to you and yours. Get advice much, pronto. Talk to a lawyer about preparatory advice for this situation.

        Then, see this gift horse for the less than perfect, yet welcome boon it is.

        How often does one get to use “boon”, anyway? I felt a little dash of extra British-ey something from within, for a second there.

    • Because then it’s not cheating. Cheating implies fucking around behind someone’s back and being a deceitful shit.

      Saying that they will fuck anything with their preference for genitals, upfront, isn’t hitting their deceit tingles. Being a dishonest fuckwit is what gets them off.

    • Yes I was duped by the marriage counselling therapist too. He wasted my time and money and sat there sucking up to my ex. It is one part of the bigger story of infidelity, marriage breakdown, and the rest that I still grapple to understand.

  • When I found myself suddenly single at an age and state of life where I could have switched lanes and become a polyamorous cougar (my son said I always won when his friends played “Whose mom would you do?”) I dated and considered a variety of life constructs and I chose (in the 21st century) to seek out married monogamy.

    Bonus is that on this round, I chose someone who didnt just PRETEND he was into monogamy (like Cheater did for 29 years) he is actually into it.

    30 years ago, I would have clutched my pearls over talk of free love and poly lifestyles but I have come to see that monogamy isnt for everyone. I wish now that Cheater had been more honest with himself and me. I now think that people should live authentic, integrated lives and if they want to be poly then they can pursue that in honesty.

    The problem isnt polyamory…the problem is lying. Like CL said, I was one who was committed to monogamy for years only to learn that I was in it by myself.

    • Exactly! When I discovered my ex was cheating on me, he asked for an open marriage. Um, no. We already discussed this when we decided to get married and we said the words “forsaking all others”. I’m pretty chill with whatever people want to do – if an open marriage or having multiple spouses is ok with all the people in the rerelationship, knock yourselves out. But don’t say “it’ll be you and me forever” and try to change the rules a couple decades later as a hail Mary pass when your crappy misdeeds have been uncovered.

      • Oh, and only change the rules for themselves….not YOU. YOU must still be faithful, while the cheater secretly fucks whatever will have him, and, hey, it’s OK because of articles like that above. But even those articles must be kept secret from the faithful spouse, because then they might figure out you are cheating.

      • Cheaters rarely make good polyamorists. They lack the communication skills to be transparent and have the hard conversations required to be adept at managing multiple relationships. We tried an open relationship, but he broke all the rules we set in place for each other on his first trip out of the gate. He had no intentions of following them anyway, stupid me believed that opening up our marriage would make him happy. It did but he still continued to lie and sneak around and engage in dangerous behaviors. I thought that if I allowed him some “encounters” that he would be more likely to meet my needs and stay in the marriage. OMG how screwed up was THAT? The answer was yes, because he was getting what he wanted, but I was becoming smaller and smaller by the day. I read and learned a lot about polyamory though. It works for some people, but it requires brutal honesty and a healthy sense of self.

        • As I now understand the mindset and motives of cheaters, it makes perfect sense that he’d continue to go behind your back even in an open marriage. Since cheating is abusive by nature, giving permission to sleep with others won’t stop the lying and sneaking around. For a cheater, the deceit is the thrill, not the sex itself. My cheater wasn’t even getting sex. She stopped putting out after a few months, but he kept at it for more than five years, would have gone on indefinitely if he hadn’t been caught. For a cheater, deceit and betrayal are rewards in and of themselves. That’s how we know it is a form of abuse.

  • I almost couldn’t finish reading this insulting article.
    This “author “ should write to the entitled disordered
    community & keep her lack of integrity to herself!
    Hopefully one day someone will cheat on her who she deeply loves…in the meantime Fuck off Lisa !!

  • hmmm .. guess what Lisa – I tried having the conversation, made a plan, asked questions …. and guess what he did in response? lies and more lies or if pushed, produced the universal oldie but a goodie of “I don’t know” paired with storming out of the room. Tad difficult to have the deep and meaningful with Mr. shallow and avoidant.

    • I forgave and WE agreed to work on the marriage. She said she cut all ties and deleted all contact information from her phone. I found a lunch receipt with his name written on it (they were still working at the same company, but in different buildings and they would NEVER have a reason to see each other), his contact information hidden in her phone and a parking receipt with a different time stamp on it than the hours she claimed to be at an electrical convention. I should really become a private investigator.

  • Didn’t we already have this conversation – generally around the 1960’s in the West – and wasn’t it called “divorce”? You know, acknowledging that on occasion it’s necessary for two people to agree to terminate a marriage. Or even for one person to unilaterally leave a marriage. The reasons referenced for cheating (“needing to experience life on our own” or sample other “romantic relationships”) are valid grounds for divorce. There’s no need to piggyback adultery onto something that can be fixed by a simple divorce.

    I’m pretty far out from it all so it’s not as raw for me, but lately I keep coming back to “You had the right to divorce me at any time. You didn’t have to lie, cheat and deceive in the process. I don’t like, respect or trust you now but the reason we’re not friends isn’t because of the divorce itself or even the extramarital sex, it’s because of the deliberate deception you perpetrated.”

    • Yes to all of this. I told Dickhead, you could have divorced me before any of the crap started or before you started treating me like a piece of poop on the bottom of your boot. Oh wait, he tried to do that.

      If I hadn’t gone “poking or prodding” as he called it, I wouldn’t have found evidence of cheating. Therefore, it’s my fault that I got hurt. He was more than willing to deceive and gaslight me into utter confusion but he was never going to tell me why he did it.

    • Involuntary Georgian:

      My dear, you hit the nail on the head. The next time my XH scratches his head and pretends to be confused about why we’re not BFFs, I’ll draw on your perfect explanation.

      In the end, it’s not so much about the acts… it’s about the well-orchestrated, deceptive intention behind them.

    • What you said is so right. The disrespect and being a liar ???? when you could have asked for a divorce first….

    • Yep!…Why do they think cheating happens in a vacuum? No lying or deception required to keep it going. And…the cheater doesn’t just have to lie to the spouse…they need to lie to EVERYONE…coworkers, bosses, doctors, friends, AP’s, and kids…in order to maintain their lifestyle. Yet label it cheating and the lies are accepted. Barf

    • But they like the deception. Duper’s delight. They like knowing what we don’t know. They love the triangle and the idea that they can “compete” with some unwitting spouse or that their own unwitting spouse is in the dark.

      Divorce isn’t nearly as much fun. You know—50/50 custody or worse, splitting up the assets, losing that second income, nobody to watch the kiddos or take them to soccer while you cheat, child support, people knowing you failed at marriage, nobody to protect you from a Schmoopie who wants to marry.

    • Doing that though, means they lose their spouse appliance, free money, free babysitting and free doer of chores for them. That’s why they keep them around.

  • I had a vision of her as a Dementor. Or maybe the shadow offspring of Stannis Baratheon and the Red Woman in the television series Game of Thrones.

    Lying = deception => soul-sucking and destruction (whether the victim knows it or not [Madoff])
    Adultery = deception =>soul-sucking and destruction (whether the Chump partner knows it or not)

    Sadly, lying and deceit appear to delight spouses who commit adultery. If you see deceit being practiced in a different area, then it’s highly likely it’s occurring in your relationship too.

    I wish they would go find their own Island of Misfit Toys and stay put.

  • Sorry to be a snowflake (I’m actually a Gen-Xer and hate on millennials for sport) but that trigger at the end of the article seriously did need a warning. ????

    I, too, “spent years devoted to the care and feeding of a husband.” I mean, I had my pages highlighted and underlined, and look what it got me?? For anyone not familiar with “Dr. Laura” (her relevance seems to have faded), her book “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” had a really simple premise. In order to have a happy marriage, just give your man 3 things: good food, good sex, and respect. Then in return he won’t have affairs, addictions, or abuse. Hahaha. Joke was on me.

    What Dr. Laura, Lisa Haisha, Esther Perel, and so many others are missing is exactly what CL pointed out. Some people just SUCK. Maybe they hid it for a while, or maybe we spackled/convinced ourselves otherwise. But my man-boy preferred to dine on his entitlement, crap life skills, and narcissism. Forget food, sex, and respect. Certainly forget having honest conversations and setting goals together. Those books, articles, TedTalks, etc. either naively don’t take into account that there are disordered fuckwits in the world who will lie and cheat and screw you over, or else the authors themselves are disordered fuckwits who are trying to lie, cheat, and screw you over for profit. I’m going to go with the latter.

    • Yeah, ” the care and feeding” got to me too, as I used to be a huge Dr. Laura fan and also read that book. I reread it after D-day, jotting down notes. I was a great wife and mom. It still wasn’t enough, because he’s a disordered fuckwit. I know deep in my heart that there was absolutely nothing I could have done to stop him pursuing other women behind my back. It’s him and not me. I was and still am a self-help book reader. I can honestly say that I was a 100% better person than the day we married. I tried so hard to be the best version of myself and it still wasn’t enough.

      • I’m really stuck on this and can’t seem to get on with my day. ???? I can’t honestly look back and say I was great, or that there was nothing I could have done differently, or that I was always trying to be the best version of me. Truth be told, I was a married pregnant teenager with a lot of growing up to do. And it kills me inside to know that, despite reading hundreds of self-help marriage books over the years and trying to apply their advice, I still contributed to a lot of our marital dysfunction.

        If I was judging myself by Dr. Laura’s standards – Good sex? Check. (And I take full credit for that one, lol.) Good food? Well…half a check. Let’s just say no one ever went hungry. Respect? Big X. And ironically it’s the area in which I tried the hardest. I was a passive aggressive codependent trying to submit to my husband according to the ideals of “biblical patriarchy,” and when I wasn’t excelling at it I was failing miserably. I would do *so well* at holding it all in until I just couldn’t take it anymore and would scream horrible obscenities at him. The guilt over how I could have done better still eats me alive.

        Now you would think that I should be able to look back and give myself some credit for holding our marriage together in the face of his emotional and physical affairs, gambling and alcohol addictions, and seriously fucked up narcissistic abuse. But because I wasn’t giving him the “proper” care and feeding (Why didn’t I ever realize how smug and pretentious Dr. Laura’s title was before?), it feels like I failed. Like I caused him to cheat.

        I know that even if I had done consistently better, then I’d still be writing in, like Martha, about how it wasn’t enough. But that’s not my truth. I kind of sucked at being a good wife. I just have to keep reminding myself that it doesn’t matter because he could have always chosen to divorce me but instead he chose to cheat.

        • Dear Hopeful, big (((HUGS))) to you today. I was not the perfect wife. No one is the perfect wife or husband. We all make mistakes. We all let our partners and ourselves down at times. We however didn’t cheat! You did not cause him to cheat. It was his choice to cheat. If he was unhappy in the marriage, then he should have been honest and said he wanted to divorce. But he didn’t. He wanted his cake –“Cake eating is the preferred Nirvanic state of the unrepentant cheater. It’s the situation in which the cheater has the affair partner (AP) and the spouse. (“Having your cake and eating it too.”) In fact, cake is a preferred lifestyle for many.”” ~ Chump Lady

          In my humble opinion, biblical patriarchy is not from God, but from men. I bought into it too. And I completely understand what you said about holding it all in and then one day you explode with anger and obscenities. I did that too, but not until six months after D-day. 23 years of holding it all in. Forgiving. Forgetting. Giving, giving, giving. Pushing my needs down in order to make him happy, etc, etc. And one day I exploded like a volcano and my lava of anger ran for quite a few months. A person can only take so much before they lose it! Do not beat yourself up for that!

          Chump Lady answered my letter a few years ago and maybe it will help you too. I reread it every so often when I’m questioning myself.

          Also, check out Divorce Ministers blog. Flying Free Now. Leslie Vernick. Jen Grice. Chump Lady I read every day, but i go to other blogs for support too. 🙂

          And I agree with you about Dr. Laura. I used to listen to her radio show years ago and I liked her, because I liked how she was straight forward and gave good advice to wake people up. Kinda like Chump Lady tells us the truth even though it’s hard to hear sometimes. But I don’t like her anymore and can’t listen to her being rude to people. She’s dangerous for telling women that if we give our husbands food, sex and respect that they wouldn’t cheat.

          • Thank you, Martha. I am so glad to have friends in Chump Nation who understand.

            • No, we might not have been the perfect spouses but who is? We did not cheat. I went to work every day, bringing in a paycheck, kept the house spotless, a home cooked dinner on the table every night, laundry done, kept myself up, holidays fun, sex whenever he wanted. So it doesn’t really matter what you do if they are wired to be cheaters. Or parasites.

              My cheater is a parasite and whenever he gets bored he finds a new sparkly host to attach to. He is a chameleon and can be with any woman as long as she has a job and a house. He scouts pretty carefully. He doesn’t want kids hanging around so he’ll make sure she doesn’t have any or if she does they must be gone. She has to have a good education and a good job and most of all a decent house so he can slip into that. You can’t believe how many women fall for his shit. I did. He’s charming as hell and makes you believe that you’re the only thing in the world that matters. That is, until he’s bored and then he’s onto the next host.

        • Hopeful sweetie, you’re quite right. Your yelling was born out of honest weariness and frustration, but his cheating was born out of his cheating deceitful soul. He could have reacted to your frustration in many ways that were empathic, supportive, loving. Instead he chose to betray you.
          I didn’t get angry. Ever. I felt I’d committed to him, I loved him and all the crap he did was Just Him. That led to depression and isolation and him leaving for a more fun partner. Hopeful, with people who have it in them to cheat, we CAN’T WIN because it’s them – they suck!
          Lots of love to you today. Be mighty! Xxx

        • And you know what? He could have had an honest conversation with you and said “I no longer want to be verbally abused, it stops now or I’m seeking a divorce”. Instead, he fucked around behind your back.

      • We can’t compete with their desire for sexual variety with other people. No once can.

    • If you’re wondering what gappened to Dr. Laura, I suspect the fact that her son turned out to be an unspeakable psychopath might have put a damper on her advice-giving career. I was unfortunate enough to have seen his sick online rants before the military got rid of them. The memory alone makes me shudder. Also, she left her mom alone to die and the body was undiscovered for some time, because she never visited or even hired caregivers to look in on her.
      I guess her former editor and publisher rightly judged her as lacking credibility and stopped taking her calls. At least I hope that’s how it went. The notion of her waiting for return calls that will never came pleases me.

      • Please excuse the typos in my post. My hands are a bit shaky today thanks to another disturbing discovery about the disordered mind of my cheater.
        It doesn’t hurt me much anymore, but it certainly does creep me out. I dodged an even bigger bullet than I thought by not reconciling with that freak.

    • I read Wife for Life trying to fix my relationship. I’m sure these books work if you’re in a relationship with a normal human (Wife for Life worked for my SIL). However, I was in a relationship with someone with BPD. I had nothing to work with, but didn’t know it until after the relationship had ended.

    • I never understood the appeal of Dr. Laura and her credentials were nonexistent if memory serves me correctly. A doctorate from studying rat testicles, wasn’t it? I had a long-term doormat friend married to a male chauvinist who swore by her books so I browsed one during a visit to their house and briefly listened to her radio show. I couldn’t stand her-came across as a condescending bitch-and I turned off the radio.

      • I seem to recall her doctorate was in education, but I like your version better. Lol.
        Her own creepily dysfunctional family is proof that she’s completely full of shit. If there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s a woman who advises other women that licking men’s boots is the key to happiness. They do this because being good little footsoldiers of patriarchy gets them male approval and admission into the boy’s club. It opens doors that close on you when you resist patriarchal control. The women at Fox news sure found that out when they resisted sexual harassment.

    • Dr. Laura is a hypocrite with a capital H !!
      She was the OW with her 2nd husband and had him leave his wife and kids for her.

      She then became Ms Puritan on the radio ! Sorry but I detest hypocrites (my cheater Ex is a huge one), so talk everything she says and writes with a huge grain of salt !!

  • I wonder what Lisa will think if her husband has a need to ‘experience life’ between her younger sister’s legs? I guess it’s all a matter of your ‘perpesctive’! It’s all Babylonious bombastic bullshit!

    • Well, maybe she’ll get a chance to experience it (if she has siblings). Maybe her husband will sleep with her brother for a really unique experience for her to “grow from!”

      Lisa Haisha’s unique marriage was showcased on CBS 2 News, where she discussed the successes that come from being married but living in separate homes, a growing trend in the United States.

      Lisa Haisha
      Published on Dec 11, 2013

      They appear to have a daughter.

      • Methinks that translates to they’re separated but still fuck buddies. What a sterling example of marital “success”. I wonder who this twit thinks she’s kidding.

  • Create a vision plan?? lma
    All the counseling sessions we attended and he swore to never speak or see to the OW again. I was not OK with that. But sadly he lied, SHOCKING!!

  • Let’s imagine how many fancy$50,000 weddings we would have if the cheater had the conversation about open relationships and rent-a-girlfriend before the wedding date was chosen: Who would sign up for that?

    • Perfect point- have all the damn “conversations” you want, and have them BEFORE the wedding. Then see how many weddings happen.

      For the entitled, that is just no fun at all, because they do thrive on the deceit. Being naughty is exuberant.

  • Other things we don’t like to have done to us have been common in human behavior for centuries, too — rape, thievery, assault, enslavement, extortion, just to name a few — so I guess Lisa would be AOK with reframing those conversations.

    If she’s raped, she’ll just say the rapist must have had unfulfilled needs and try to have a nice chat afterwards about how she can better meet the rapist’s sexual needs next time, because it’s important to be happy.

    If her house is robbed, she’ll say the thief must have had needs and try to have a nice chat afterwards about what else she can purchase so the thief will enjoy the next robbery even more, because it’s important to be happy.

    If she’s beaten, she’ll say the abuser mist have had strong primal feelings that awakened a natural anger response and have a nice chat afterward about how they might mutually arrange future assaults to better serve the abuser’s needs, because it’s important to be happy.

    Oh, wait, Lisa… you wouldn’t be OK with someone raping you, stealing from you, or beating you, just because it makes the person happy, and you don’t think conversation would be a reasonable resolution to those abuses after all?

    Every “Lisa” who (rather obviously) writes an article to try to justify and/or excuse his/her/hir/their shitty behavior is just another person who is taking a dump in the community pool. Their drivel doesn’t deserve anything other than draining the pool, cleaning up the crap, and starting over.

  • “Maybe we shouldn’t blame drunk drivers. Let’s stop overreacting to the automotive fatalities they cause while we’re at it, after all, people have been drunk driving for years.”

    I feel for the people who are trauma bonded and desperate and succumb to that drive in a lot of us which pushes us to want to stay with our cheating assclowns. It’s this behavior, though, which allows the propagation of such articles. When cheaters aren’t 100% kicked the fuck out and promptly divorced, we get more articles like this and more tools which can be used for self-delusion. “I should forgive this cheating asshole, history tells us monogamy never works anyway.”

    Of course, I might not have learned this lesson had I not been immediately abandoned for the new fuck partner and given the space to realize it. Funny how the psyche-cracking discard I went through will actually be better in the long run for me. Kinda like letting someone chop your arm off so you don’t turn into a zombie.

    Cheater Apologism is gross in all its forms.

  • Can you say,”Run on sentence?” I thought you could…(Props to Eddie Murphy).

    It is difficult to take Ms. Haisha’s comments seriously when she cannot even express her opinion in clear terms. I think I was taught what a run on sentence was in fourth grade. Apparently, she missed that lesson.

    It has been my experience that the less a person knows about a particular subject, the more they ramble and talk in circles. Here, we have a classic case of word salad, with a heap of gooey salad dressing on top.

    Seriously, though, no one is forced to marry. All the considerations she insists are vital to a good marriage should be made long before marriage is even considered. If one lacks the emotional maturity to make a commitment to fidelity, there is a simple solution. Don’t get married! Be honest with your partner about your inability to be faithful! Don’t bring children into the world under false pretenses!

    It all comes down to a question of honesty. If you can’t be honest with the person you claim to love above all others, what is the point of getting married in the first place? A relationship built on lies cannot survive, despite all excuses to the contrary.

    • The STBX said ‘I was very young when we married’ (he was 20, I was 25) . 23 years later, it seems he made a mistake in marrying me. Funny how he realised that once I’d turned 50, and funny how his faithfulness failed when he met someone who actually appealed to him (he is v picky – apart from his porn use).
      I’m ok now with the relationship being over as when he took his masks off (his words) I didn’t like what was underneath. But blaming your own 20 year old self instead of your deceptive 46 year old self is so sad.

    • That has been my experience as well. She’s a sophist. There are a lot of them about and they sell a ton of books in which they impart their bobble-headed “wisdom” on poor saps who don’t have a bullshit detector. The confusing word salad is sometimes a deliberate tactic. The sap figures if he/she can’t make heads or tails of what the advice guru du jour is trying to say, it must be deeply profound. Therefore, the sap just needs to buy the guru’s other books, listen to podcasts, and follow the guru on twitter to understand and find the path to a better life. For example, Jordan Peterson is a master of that school of marketing through the use of baffleblather.

  • When I correct medical students’ exams I know from the start if they actually *know what they need to know* by how many verbs they “smother” and “pickle”. (I will never correct another exam the same way after this insight…)

    And, besides not smothering your verbs, isn’t there something about a limit of 50 words in a sentence and it even should be lower??? I counted 80 and even so I could not get the point…

    And isn’t “hidden behaviors associated with adultery” a pleonasm?

  • Cheaters live by two different standards of behavior. What they can do (cheat and lie) and what the chump can do (be faithful and honest). After D-day I was told by Assbrain that he needed “healthy female friends” and that was “just who he was” and it was “a part of his DNA”. He also told me that he wished I also have lots of healthy male friends. He even got my ex-pastor in on this by telling the pastor that he was raised by mostly women and he felt comfortable with them. My EX-pastor went on to tell me this while the cheater was sitting right next to me and that I needed to “understand and accept who he was”.

    Whoa, there Nelly!! Ten years before this all occurred. I asked Assbrain if it was okay if I spent about two hours the day after my 20th high school reunion, with a guy that was a special friend to me in high school. I felt comfortable asking him this as he went out for a birthday lunch every year with a former female college “friend” and I knew he had lots of women “friends” as he talked about them. He said it was okay that I went. Mind you, my friend lived about 16 hours away from me and this was probably the last time I’d ever see him again as I have no more intentions of going to anymore reunions.

    The day came and my friend came inside my moms house to say hi to Assbrain, my mom and kids. I was gone for no longer than two hours. My friend and I went down to Lake Michigan where we used to hang out as kids and we talked about what we had been up to the previous 20 years. He then drove me back to my moms and once again came inside and said goodbye to everyone. I could see on my husbands face that he was jealous. He was also jealous the night at the reunion and he said he didn’t like my comment that I didn’t remember my friend being so tall. Assbrain said, “I thought I was the tall one.”

    A few weeks after the reunion. Assbrain said to me, “Well, if you are pregnant, we will know it’s not mine as I had a vasectomy.” I could not believe what he said and I was in shock! Now I know this is projection. He was projecting onto me what he’s capable of doing and I now have no doubt in my mind he was having an affair when I was pregnant with our second child in 2000.

    When I was married, I always had strict boundaries when it came to men. Somewhere around 2010, I became friends with a male custodian that worked in the cafeteria with me. I was a lunchroom monitor at the time and he was there just to keep things clean. We would talk about politics and history while we watched the kids eat. That was pretty much the only time I would talk with him during the day. I would mention him sometimes over the dinner table when we’d talk about our day. Well, guess what? Assbrain was jealous of him too. He could have a harem of female friends, but if I had one, well the green-eyed monster would show up.

    I married him knowing he had his female college friend. I married him knowing that he had female friends at work, because he would talk about them. I didn’t have a problem with them at all. So like Lisa suggested about having the talk before marriage — well, we did. And guess what? It didn’t work, because a lot of these female friends is harem building for back-up narcissistic supply and future affair partners. I have no doubt in my mind that he’d drop the current whore (the one I caught him cheating on me with) for his female friend from college if she would want him. He’d dump soulmate du jour in the garbage without looking back. That’s who he really is and is not the enlightened man he wants everyone to believe he is. He’s a pathological lying serial cheater and I trust that he sucks! It’s good he’s finally with someone who will “accept” that he needs to go out with women on breakfast and lunch dates as she was one of the many women he went on dates with. And she chatted and probably flirted with my ex over coffee while she was a married woman. And when she divorced, he took coffee to late night drinks date and she took him up on his offer. They both know what each is capable and they 100% deserve each other.

    I bet Lisa is a cheater with all that word salad she’s spinning.

  • CL nailed it…….Cheaters cheat because the like the rush. It’s not as much fun if it’s not “breaking the rules” or “dirty”.
    Interesting that Lisa asked the Japanese husbands how their wives felt, but didn’t ask the wives themselves!

  • Changing the rules after we agreed upon the conditions is not OK. I was never asked if it was OK if he cheated. I had no say in how many times he cheated, who he cheated with, the lies he told me – I was never asked if it was OK to seek sex out of our marriage or to be treated like I was nothing.

    I worked with a young lady who’s finally seeking a divorce after a 3-year marriage. Honestly, I can’t stand her. She’s whiny, entitled and quick to run to the bosses when her widdle itty bitty feelings get hurt. I have worked with this group for 20 years, and she is the only person I have ever complained about to my boss.

    She told me that she asked her husband about an open marriage. I’m guessing he reluctantly agreed. I asked her if he dated or did anything with another person and she said no. I’m guessing she did. She said that she was reluctant to pursue a divorce because, wait for it, he’s so good to me. But he’s not to good to cheat on or to change the rules. It’s always about their entitlement and lousy character.

  • Lisa Aisha’s husband is Lee Aronsohn.

    “n the midst of the 2012 negotiations to bring Ashton Kutcher on board the embattled “Two and a Half Men,” The Hollywood Reporter published several quotes by Aronsohn made during a Toronto Screenwriting Conference that were widely interpreted as misogynistic and immediately triggered a war across social media. Aronsohn’s sharp assertions that there were too many female-centric comedies on television had female writers and actors up in arms, leveling the counter-critique that while women weigh in heavily as television consumers, they are widely underrepresented in the industry’s writer’s rooms. The controversy, which was fueled in part by a history of criticism that “Two and a Half Men” was cruel toward its female characters, cooled off eventually, but not without hurt feelings on all sides.”

    Gee, you think? Is anyone surprised that his wife counsels people to do whatever they like, money papers over everything (but only if you’re stupid enough to get caught!)?

  • Mhm.. I have a question for Lisa

    I had MANY conversations with my h about the life we want- our needs, wants, goals. I dissect each and every possibility ( what if in 10 years you will be bored and meet someone exciting.. what should we do?) in order to avoid confusion, misunderstanding….

    Well, after months of discussions ( I based my agreement to marry him on those talks) we came to conclusion, that:
    – family and us will be our priority
    – there is absolutely no space for secrets, lies etc
    – we talk to each other no matter how hard the topic is
    – we are having monogamous relationship


    Now, my sweet Lisa…. after all the talk and agreements, on my d day I discovered that my beloved h was meeting and fucking hookers from the moment we decided to be together- engaged- and married.
    He betrayed each and every agreement we had and pissed on every promise given to me.

    Dear Lisa…. was I not clear enough? Not open minded enough? Maybe expectation of having an adult decent human being was too much? Or maybe in historical perspective, abuse is more than welcome because(xxx)

    Fuck you Elis and your article. Cheating and fucking other people are on the cheaters and their lack of integrity not on lack of honest discussions( have u tried to have honest discussion with a lying cheating person? )


    • I’m just imagining all the dreck she’d say in response to this.

      “I’m sure he meant it at the time.”

      “Have you licked his balls this week? Only 2 times?! It’s time to rethink our attitudes on ball licking!”

      “People change.”

      “You must come off as uninterested in sex. You told him you just wanted to go to bed after working 8 hours, cooking dinner, packing his lunch and the kids lunches for the next day and helping 3 kids with homework. Frigid much?”

      Or the classic that makes me vom-‘It’s not natural to have with 1 person for the rest of your life’. Just die, already you sick fucks!

      • Sweetener…. I was the chump of chumps…. it could have to go this way:

        “ oh Margo, you wanted to role play tonight, oh no, that is such a turn off… oh wait, I was watching and enjoying pics/ videos of women doing exactly what you tried to do( freaking, isn’t it?) oh well…. u know… it’s you. I’m just not interested”

        “ oh Margo, you are mad today? I told you not to sneak and peak around my laptop… you were a bad bad girl; as a punishment, I will get drunk so you will take care of the kids, house, your work alone”


  • Why don’t cheaters state their inability to be faithful before marriage? Because they won’t get laid. They want the image of husband and father to show off to the world. Oh look how successful my life is. They pretend to be moral, fine upstanding citizens. A woman is far more likely to sleep with a “decent but unhappy man” who she can make better, than someone who says, I am a cheater, I just want to get in your knickers..

    • “Decent, but unhappy man”.

      Nail on the head. That is the narrative they use not just to capture affair partners, but to justify to themselves that what they are doing isn’t all bad.

      • Pretty sure that was the narrative mine spun. He comes across as a person with morals. In fact, he tells people he has them and praises others for their morals.

        • Mine too. He says he is a very decent a trustworthy man. He just “wasn’t himself” during the affair, and got “swept up”. He just “wasn’t happy for years but just didn’t realize it”.

          All those unhappy years I should have known, except he was calling me the love of his life and my devoted husband and future faking. But, yeah…unhappy and I should have known.

          • Same……And what a coincidence, that he only realized he had been unhappy for YEARS after he met Schmoopie. You know, those same years during which time he told me again and again how devoted he was to me, how much he loved me, how marrying me was the best thing he ever did, etc. …

  • Thank you, Tracy- for your work in creating a counter-narrative to this online sputum.
    LH needs to revise her bio, as “an advocate for women”. With her command of the letters as an “MA”, I would expect more discipline.
    The narc-o-meter is signaling higher than a Geiger counter at Chernobyl.
    It’s offensive when women presume that women are this gullible.
    In other words- bitch, please.

  • Here I thought that the time to discuss the parameters of your marriage was when you were dating, you know, before the actual marriage. Seems pretty shite to promise to do something and then change your mind (without even telling your partner).

  • Every single person I have talked to who has had an “enlightened” relationship with their spouse has wound up divorced. Just sayin’.

  • Historically polygamy tends to create violent societies and monogamy tends to have more peaceful society. Which shouldn’t be surprising to us who have been chumped. Jordan Peterson discusses this often. Even if your not a fan of him other historians came to the same conclusion

    • Yes, it makes intuitive sense as well. As for the source, I’ll file that away in the special folder I keep for the stopped clock that is right once a day.

  • This Lisa Halsha person is so full of shit I wonder if her eyes are brown. Seriously, though, let’s take a minute and ignore all the ‘love’ and stuff that’s supposed to go into a marriage. Think for a moment: would you start a business with someone who routinely lies to you? Because when you sign a marriage license, that’s a legal document. You don’t do that with other relationships.So One is entitled to expect more from that relationship.

  • Hey CL,

    Your first line to “those still vomiting after D-day” made me remember when I threw up a few days after D-Day when I realized just how deep the lying had been. Then the anxiety attacks and my special lose 40lbs betrayal diet (c)

    Wish I had been told then that if I had just taken a moment to consider the history of marriage, I actually would not have been shocked.

    • I’ve been on that diet. 40 lbs. gone. They needed to be gone, but still.

  • What the cheater wants: Marriage so they look normal and have someone to share household responsibilities + exciting hookups to tell their buddies about and joke how they are so cool.

    Would having a conversation with the spouse to get an agreement on this plan work out for the cheater, you think? Most likely not.

    So do they:
    a) not have the conversation and do whatever they want to do without informing their spouse to the changes to the marriage vows?
    b) not have the conversation and stay faithful to the marriage vows?
    c) have the conversation and risk that their spouse not only says NO, but also says GET OUT?

    Since the cheater has no integrity, they choose A. Option A gets them the most bang for their buck, the most cake, with the least amount of consequences if they can hide what they are doing. If they get found out it’s more likely to turn out like option C, but hey them might not so A is better than C. Option B doesn’t get them the strange so that’s a no go too.

    The end.

    • I don’t think most cheaters are dissatisfied with their marriages. They like the stability and support and all the rest of the perks. They just want “extra.” And they feel entitled to that because they are special. The deception and lies are necessary tools for preserving those marriages because they do value them. Sometimes they’ll even float the idea of an open marriage, but they really don’t want it open on both ends because then they wouldn’t be special anymore.

      • I agree, Survivor. Although, in my case, she left our 17-yr marriage.
        She floated the idea of an “open” marriage. Said she wanted the option to explore her sexuality; it would be purely sexual, not romantic, but added that she wasn’t really sure she’d do it. She admitted that she’d prefer it be a one-way arrangement, benefitting her only. I ultimately said “no thanks”. A month later she said she wanted to be single, gave me the ILYBINILWY speech and filed for divorce. A few weeks later I found out she’d been having an affair with one of her married superior officers (my ex is a cop).

        • So she did the risk/benefit analysis and decided she’d get a better deal elsewhere, where she could unilaterally make all the rules and change them at any time.

          After 16 years, the Fucktard X thought he’d replace me with a “younger, thinner, prettier” version of myself (his words), but “edgier” (presumably meaning more open to the the open marriage thing). Two years later, she was running like her hair was on fire and he was trying to get his foot back in my door.

          So it’s not that they’re unhappy with their chump. They just don’t want to accommodate anyone but themselves.

        • My x wanted to explore his sexuality as well. And I got the speech shortly after.

          Turns out that he had done a fair bit of exploring already before DD.

          I know that a number of us believed that our spouses were having a MLC or aliens had switched out their brains.

          It still amazes me that They Are All The Same!!!!!

          Unfortunately for Lisa, she is so “original” and “edgy” that she is just a regular old twat.

          • Midlife crisis was something I worried about myself when the Fucktard started getting weekly massages, pierced his ear, and then another, and bought a Porsche out of our savings (I’d always had to save money for a new car from my “allowance,” and as a lawyer I earned a lot more than I was allowed to spend, so that sucked right off the bat). Then he started paying for massages for his niece, which rang some bells. It was like some gravitational shift started happening at age 40. I’m glad I never saw age 50, but I did see the set of house keys to another house in the Porsche and the blouse left under the seat. Enough already. Some people are not meant to be in the company of real people.

    • Exactly so. It’s not complicated. They want you to believe it’s about FOO issues, unmet needs, etc. but it really just boils down to that. They have no integrity and no real concern for others. Even if the choice is between their pleasure and a risk to your life, they will choose their pleasure. That would be why the majority risk our lives by having unprotected sex. The figure I heard was 66%. For the minority who do use protection, it’s certainly not out of concern for their spouse. If they had concern for the spouse they would have that conversation, and would not be cheating.

      • Spot on. My cheating ex lied about having herpes and enjoyed having unprotected sex with me. He said he didn’t think he could give it to me because he hadn’t had an outbreak in years, yet he kept Valtrex in every medicine cabinet and travel bag “just in case.” Asswipe. Also, all of his infidelities stem from FOO issues, yet his brother has been happily married with amazing kids forever. He’s just a POS and feels entitled to shit on everyone because he has excessive amounts of money.

  • Huh, and all this time I thought those special vows were the vision plan. They were to me.

    • Exactly!

      When I yelled at cheater “I meant my vows!” He replied “I meant my vows too.” WTF?

      Ummm, yeah until you didn’t. You either keep vows, promises, and have integrity or you don’t.

      • Yes who knew those eternal vows had an expiration date! Or in stbx’s case, he was a different man from the one who married me. Apparently he is living backwards and is now more immature than he was 23 years ago when we married… maybe CN should do some gene sequencing on cheaters and make billions on a magical youth serum!

  • Sounds like someone wants to normalize adultery so she can feel better about herself. “If I convince everyone else I can get rid of the guilt.”

  • Ugh. My ex and I communicated plenty–we were known for it. Our families would joke about how much we talked things out–how much we [supposedly] knew about each other and were aligned in our visions. It was a source of pride for me. So…ask me why I’m on these boards. ; )

    • I am so sorry. I sometimes think that Chumps who thought that they were loved and cared for by their cheaters are so much worse off than those of us who had a crappy relationship.
      At other times I think: at least they were happy for a while.
      My cheater was an asshole; he took great pride in claiming that title. Really.
      So I was not as shocked, perhaps, as someone who was partnered with a “nice” person.
      But it still nearly killed me when I found out what he was truly capable of.

      • Thanks oldcrone. Hard to say what’s worse. But yea, the “nice guy turned sociopath” situation is pretty tough cause you truly question your reality. The good news is that it is a much needed awakening…can you say “missed red flags” much?!?

  • I’m not sure what the point is. We know the cheater loves the lies and deception. Adds an extra layer to the thrill. Mine would occasionally bring up a name out of the blue. Turned out she was banging that person. Must have got her excited me knowing but not knowing. The sickness behind the cheating is on a level I do not even want to understand. I guess the point is to remove consequences from the act. The majority get caught. They don’t want to be labeled badly.

  • It continues to boggle my mind that people believe that the spouses that cheat are the same as we are except without the clarifyers that occur with honest conversation. Yes, we have the norms and mores of marriage including honesty and fidelity, outdated as she may believe it is, that IS marriage. An agreement. A sacred vow to be honest and faithful. Even outside of marriage, lying is unacceptable. Secrets that endanger our physical, mental, financial, and emotional health are unacceptable. What in the crap is she thinking?

    Fine. Let’s rethink marriage. All the men and women who don’t want to abide by the simple ideas of honesty and fidelity don’t. All those who want those things, keep doing them. THAT IS THE SYSTEM WE ALREADY HAVE. Rethink marriage? Okay! If you don’t want to be honest and faithful, DON’T MARRY THISE OF US WHO DO.

    Also, don’t expect a regular job, friends or coworkers you can count on (because they can’t count on you) or health and happiness. And please tattoo a warning label on your forehead because law abiding and moral people like ourselves are SO TIRED of your enlightenment.

    • This. If you’re not one for fidelity and monogamy…just, don’t. I understand that these types want it all–stability and social status of being the Wonderful Married Person and Family Man…but also all the side pieces they can muster. BUT, it’s 2019 not 1919 and the stigma attached to being a swingin single is not what it used to be. So cheaters…just stop. You can still be super cool and revered and not in a committed relationship. So, do that. And leave the rest of us chumps to our boring, commitment-loving lives.

  • Oh boy…Lisa and her diarrhea sentences.

    What nonsense have I heard ? “Marriage is no longer a relevant social paradigm” Goody for you-don’t take vows and get married. Stay single for the rest of your life.

    “Rent-a-girlfriend”. Isn’t that called prostitution ? Did you interview your “girlfriend” for the night ? Is she an independent contractor who pockets all the money and picked this profession because she loves having sex with multiple men or is she being trafficked ? Please, go ahead and avail yourself of that human misery. Blech

  • Sat what?! We’re only chumps because we didn’t have a conversation & set parameters?! Damn!
    I’ll wager that having a conversation & opening ‘romantic or platonic’ doors sucks all the fun right out of it. Plus, cheaters don’t want their spouses to have fun, too. Nope, it’s a one-way street. In fact most cheaters whose partners have cheated in return, go nuts
    My ex had a meltdown when I began dating shortly after separating. Spying & shit. Hilarious, really.

    I agree with Tracy, this chick talks in run-ons & circles. Seems anyone can get published these days.

  • What a load of bullshit! My ex wouldn’t admit to cheating and would rationalize that I didn’t care about him anyway. Poor sad sausage. Gee I wonder why I was not enthusiastic with someone who treated me like crap ????

  • Speaking of Henry VIII, fans of Tudor history (like me) will remember that the reason Henry VIII gave for beheading both Anne Boleyn and Kathryn Howard? INFIDELITY!!! Because that made it socially acceptable. It was a dubious charge of Anne Boleyn (he accused her of bedding both her brother and her music teacher), possibly true of Kathryn Howard, though she was only 16 at the time of her marriage to 49-year old Henry (hear that cheaters? Women 30+ years younger than you probably aren’t sexually attracted to you!).

    • Especially when you’re portly (which is being kind) and probably suffer from e.d.

      I was browsing the greeting card section and came across a treasure. Most of the cards for older women’s birthdays made some jab at their sagging boobs, etc.,overall decrepitude and loss of “f*ckability”. The only one which poked fun at older men showed a balding man lying in bed with the sheet pulled up to his chin. “Remember when being stiff in the morning was a good thing ?”

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