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UBT: “I should be nice to you”

Narcissist GoldfishDear Chump Lady,

While I am reaching meh, I was wondering if the Universal Bullshit Translator could help me out.

During one of our last few conversations, where I was begging Ex to just be nice to me while I moved out — I was in the process of packing everything to move across the country and would shortly be out of his life forever — he got really quiet and said, “Schmoopie said I should be nice to you in this time, too.”

I became furious and screamed at him that, of course, she would say that because: 1) it made her sound like a better person than me; and 2) she was looking to the future, to when he would cheat on her, and wanted to be sure he could be nice to someone he’d cheated on.

Any other insight? While I’m doing way better and am victoriously living my own life, minus 180 pounds of fuckwit, the phrase “she said I should be nice to you, too” keeps popping up in my mind randomly, and it makes me sad and furious every time.


Cyn (not short for Cynical)

P.S. Spoiler: he couldn’t handle being nice to me. There was about 2 weeks left at that point. Of course he couldn’t, because he is a selfish immature disordered cheater.

Dear Cyn,

Let’s begin with begging your ex to be “nice” to you. Anyone you have to beg to be nice? IS NOT NICE. Pleading for civility is a classic chump move. It’s at once parental — Use your indoor voice, please! — and pitiful — Can you maintain a simulacrum of decency while I exit your life?

For future reference, just never go there. He doesn’t have an insight problem. Gosh, if I point out to him that he’s not being nice, he’ll straighten up. He must’ve overlooked his manners! He has a character problem. Your pain is a turn on. It’s kibbles.

That’s why when you asked him to “be nice” he brought out the knife and stabbed you with “Schmoopie said I should be nice to you too.” He’s reminding you that Schmoopie won the Pick Me dance, but she’s being very gracious about your loser status. They shall refrain from stubbing their cigarettes out on your face. But do be a dear and recycle your packing boxes afterwards.

Of course it’s infuriating. It’s a mindfuck on many levels.

1.) He won’t be nice because you ask him. But Schmoopie reminded him? Oh yeah, that carries weight.

2.) Schmoopie is an elevated soul who cares about everyone’s welfare, even yours! And while you may be bitter and angry, she is magnanimously above such base emotion. She thought enough to remind Ex to be kind to you. She didn’t think enough not to fuck your partner, but whatever. Hearts and kisses.

3.) “Too” — as if you share some common bond. (Vaginosis?) Gosh, you reminding me to be nice, reminds me that she said the same thing! Isn’t that a coincidence? Us discussing you. You discussing me. Me at the center of all of this. And did I mention ME? Yes, we’ve have some very improving conversations about your moving out… Of course that rankles. He’s implying that he and Schmoopie discuss your relationship and how he should comport himself.

Fuck that shit.

I must take exception to your theory about Schmoopie, however:

she was looking to the future, to when he would cheat on her, and wanted to be sure he could be nice to someone he’d cheated on.

Ye-ah. No. Cheaters never cheat on the Special, Cyn. Until they do, and then it’s a huge shock — and much more unjust than anything that ever happened to you. No, trust that Schmoopie’s sole objective here is condescension. And he is weaponizing her condescension, to hurt you on the way out the door.

Now that we’ve decoded all that — trust that he sucks. Don’t dwell on what all that was about — it was insult added to injury, swathed in “nice.” Who needs that crap?

Keep rocking the victorious new life.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Yeah – he was intentionally giving you a big FU – you’re not the boss of me with that one line.

    Thank God you are about to be cheater free. He can now run free to be “nice” all over the place.

    He said that intentionally to put you in your place.
    It sucks. He sucks. They suck.
    You however can now leave their whirling vortex of suckiness and go enjoy a very nice life!

    • That was my immediate thought too. He knew full well how saying that would make you feel, and he used it as a weapon. Who knows if she even actually said that? I wouldn’t count on it, but it doesn’t matter anyway.

      It’s great you’re getting far away from him. Slip that line into the drawer of “evidence for why he sucks”

      • yes!! My EX said things too that were attributed to others…usually things like “Joe said you are really antisocial!” or “my mom said you should have benn keeping this house cleaner, you must be pretty lazy”.

        It’s projection and ventriloquism all in one big hairy ball. They haven’t got the guts to say something hateful directly to you because if it gets out, they look like thr bad guy. So they attribute the words to someone else, only “repeating it” to you in order to smirk behind their hand to watch your pain and anguish…and hey! if it causes yet another triangle to foem with thwm at the center pulling the strings and pushing the buttons?? BONUS!!

        NO, Cyn, schmoopie never said a word about you. Trust me. He knows you will never confirm and even if you did, he knows you won’t believe anything she says anyway.

        Mine told his fuckbuddy, “my wife loves me more than ever”…when she was threatening to move on from him. She called me during this whole tragicomedy and told me tons of things he td her, that were attributed to me. I believe her because of the thread of truth….he said the same things to ME, only telling me that SHE said them!!

        They’re liars. period. Manipulating everything and everyone around them, including the affair partners. They need to stir the pot, stand back and watch who dances.

        Don’t dance, Cyn. This yanks your chain only if you allow it. Trust that she most likely never wants to discuss you in any way, because she knows the more he thinks about you, the less hold she has. This is him trying to remind you of his fabulousness.

        • Oh my gosh, I hadn’t even thought of that, and you’re right! Who gives a fuck if she said it or not? (Even if she had, it just proves that she is a two-faced, manipulative, garbage person with her faux-magnanimity) HE sucks!

          • Whatever fuckwit says…
            You have to think that it could be true or a lie. More likely a lie.
            The sky is blue? Go check it yourself.
            Why grey rock is vital.

    • This is amazing, and just what I needed to hear. Thank you for being the first comment 🙂

    • Key: “He can now be free to “nice” all over the place. ???? How that brought back memories of 28 years “together.” X was nice… to the wait staff, to those at his gym, to the neighbors, even more so to strangers as time passed, and grew increasingly unkind to his family. While I was working my ass off to make our relationship work, he was doing everything in his power to crap all over it. It is what the disordered do. They are amazing actors, right up til you have figured their con out. I knew two years before Dday that there was something “off” yet I continued to look for good in him. My advice, look for authentic and what feels right. I’d lay bets on what we spackled over. So, not sparkly and someone who needs to be fixed.

  • I used to say, calmly, “look, I know you hate my guts. Got it. You can stop showing me.”

  • “He doesn’t have an insight problem.”

    If “insanity” is, in fact doing the same thing over and over each time hoping for a different result then my biggest error in all this was continuing to see this as a insight problem WAY WAY WAY after. I should have been able to discern otherwise.

    I thought if he understood how much he hurt me he would stop, so I explained it in profound detail over and over.

    I really thought he was a decent man and he didnt understand how his cruelty hurt me. I now see that he was a very selfish man who did what he wanted and was unconcerned with the pain he inflicted.

    • They hurt people and they don’t care. He knew that I was in pain. Like CL and everyone else, it wasnt what he did but my reaction to it that was the problem. I may reach Meh one of these days. But that intentional pain and emotional cruelty is unforgivable.

      • I was a very faithful person during our marriage…I never touched / kissed or really even flirted…if I realized a work friendship was getting a little too chummy, I distanced myself. Back then, if you had told me that he would be very mean and have sex with numerous people in the course of our marriage, I would have ignored the “mean” thing and lost my mind over the sex part…

        one of the biggest surprises for me in this whole giant life situation is how I look at it now, in distant retrospect… the mean is the part which now bothers me so much more than the sex…his emotional cruelty was really bad and I now see his behavior as abuse (but at the time I excused each event as isolated and limited).

        • I think that’s the part that holding me back from healing – it was abuse. It’s only through CL and CN that I know what he did. I didn’t know what it was but I knew, deep down, that it wasn’t right and other husbands did not act this way. But I understood him and I knew that he didn’t really mean what he did or said. God. I was fool.

        • Same here, UNM. I was chatting with a friend yesterday and commented on this.

          When I discovered CL about 10 months after DDay and in the midst of wreconciliation, it was all about analyzing the cheater or untangling his skein. I was trying to find chumps here that discovered the unicorn ( unsuccessfully).

          Now about 3 years out, all I can think about is why why why I tolerated such emotional cruelty, distancing, secrets, withdrawal of intimacy and sex, which in turn turned me into an unhappy passive-aggressive wreck. My life revolved around him and his needs. Never again.

          • Longtimechump,

            I did the same thing you describe. Several years of staying and taking all that emotional abuse, and now I’m left wondering why. Why didn’t I stand up for myself and kick his ass out immediately after DD#1? Why did I invest so much time and energy in a total loser and POS human being? I’m still working through the issues as to why I put up with so much shit, and I think it is because I thought my family would be healthier and happier if we could stay together. Boy, was I a complete fool.

            The narcissistic abuse “fog” that these assholes spin up to keep their chumps in the dark is real, sadistic and cruel. I hear a lot of people post-divorce talking about “forgiveness” and it makes me want to vomit. In our culture, chumps are not only victim-blamed and shamed, but considered stuck in the past, bitter and angry. SO UNFAIR and particularly hurtful considering we just discovered massive amounts of lies and deception and our lives and family (as we knew it) is irrevocably changed.

            The forgiveness that is needed is towards myself for allowing this to go on for so long before leaving. I’m not sure I will ever forgive him for what he did to me and our family. NEVER AGAIN.

            • This really hits home. I really thought — sometimes still think — that he truly cared about and loved me. He certainly went out of his way to make me believe that was the case. Indeed, he still insists that his love was “real” but the sad, painful truth is that he is not capable of love. He certainly is capable of deception, cruelty, and betrayal.

              The question is WHY did I mistakenly identify abuse as love for so long? Why do I continue to carry this shame, instead of putting it squarely & 100% on him, where it belongs?

              • I think we have to replace the word “forgiveness” with “understanding”. That’s what we’re doing is figuring it out, and coming to an understanding of why he did what he did, why we thought it was something else … but we don’t have to “forgive” and “move on” and do any other stock phrases that put pressure on us to conform to how we should react. We will understand it and know that it’s not something we’ll ever do again, and we will adjust our life accordingly. I think that’s enough.

                If your ex deserved forgiveness, he wouldn’t be where he is now. If you’re torn because you feel compassion for him, replace “compassion” with “understanding”. I don’t think you have to forgive yourself … I think you just have to understand yourself. It’s better to do that than carry the baggage of “forgiveness”, the constant questioning of if should feel compassion toward your ex, and the frantic attempt to meeting a preset timeline for “moving on”.

              • Mehbesoon, I wonder the same thing. What is it about ME, that I would completely invest my heart in a man who didn’t deserve that investment, who would actively destroy it, all the while claiming how much he loved me?

                Learning about narcissism has been very insightful, has made me reflect on every single guy I have ever been attracted to (ALL ego-maniacs), and wonder what the heck is wrong with ME.

              • This is why we do the work to fix our Pickers.

                In my case I was raised in a highly dysfunctional family. That left its mark. It took me a long time to unlearn the basic information that I had gotten from my dysfunctional family. I had to do the work to learn what is actually normal, what shows good character, what is kind, what is basic decency. Once I learned that, then I had to work to place those qualities in my life and expect those qualities from other people. Lastly, I had to come to the conclusion that I was actually worth being treated well. Once that happened I stopped attracting narcissistic shit bags.

                It’s definitely a process and it takes time.

            • Wildcat thanks for your post. It is exactly how I feel. I too want to vomit when forgiveness is mentioned. I stayed 16 years to long thinking I could keep the family together and that’s what I was supposed to do. Fuck that shit. CL and CN was the best thing I could have ever found to help me heal. Here’s to finding MEH and a beautiful life without fuckwit!!!

              • Finally…

                Yes, it’s not about forgiving… what people don’t understand( especially in the case of YEARS of cheating/abuse/gaslighting/lying) is that YOU CANT APPLY the rules of a “ regular “ relationship… to the fucked up world we were living in…
                I was living it and STILL have issue with comprehension of the scale of cruelty in it… so no surprise that regular folks have no clue…..
                Due to my husband, I was forced to discovere world filled with ( and no, I’m not a prude) disgusting, humiliating and ????that he was engaging in…..
                I just remember face of our therapist when I was listing stuff he told me, stuff he did- I’m sitting there and in normal voice recall the porn, hook ups, rejection, humiliation etc, and her eyes are getting wider with each word…

                So no, they DID NOT WANT normal relationship, so they DONT DESERVE normal outcome ( like forgiveness)

            • All chumps need a healthy dose of self-forgiveness and self-compassion. And it takes time.

              • Margo yes I agree, thanks for your comments. I am finally recognizing his abuse and gaslighting and whatever else he did. I thought he was wonderful and why would he cheat blah blah blah. Now I realize that he sucks and never cared. I am so grateful for CL and CN it truly has saved my life. No normal outcomes for this fucked up shit. I will never say I forgive him but I will say that I can let go and get MEH

            • They spin a cocoon of confusion around us and then laugh when we struggle to get out! If we start to get a view to freedom, they spin it again. I am sure without the kind of support we have here, many of us would never get out.
              Many women of generations past lived their whole lives in this confounding trap of lies and mindfuckery I am sure, blaming themselves for their powerlessness.
              Let’s celebrate that we did get out, no matter how long it took!

              • Regina, Yes… every day he did a series of small, un-noticable things to throw my balance off…to distract, stress and occupy me so that I could never gain my full strength and be able to fully grasp my situation. I did notice that when he travelled for work and was not home for a few days, I always got “better” my life calmed and my self esteem recovered from the minute to minute assaults (often cloaked in “humor”) he subjected me to when he was home. I now think that some of his rages were tools to keep me so upset that I could not fight back and it worked.

    • I would suggest that you focus on the fact that they enjoy your pain. They get off on it. It makes them feel powerful and important.

      Whenever possible, don’t let them sense that they have hurt you. It makes them do it again.

      They are a boil on the backside of humanity. No point in popping it.

      • Exactly … and I’ll add that Ex and AP would have discussed you because that’s his shtick … he is the victim, AP is the saviour, and AP will pretend she cares about you (to him) because it gets her Brownie points. It doesn’t make her a better person, it makes her SEEM like a better person … big difference.

        I knew my ex’s AP for years apparently before they started screwing around, and she was not a better person to anyone unless they could do something for her. To my face, without him around, when I was down and crying and asking her why she was screwing him when I loved him so much, she was cruel. But I know through other sources that she is just like him … image management to protect herself even when it makes no sense to others, causing chaos, not a team player, uses her religion and profession (both perceived as “nice”) to hide her opportunistic greed. I knew this about her before. There is every possibility she said to him the same thing, to be nice to me, but it would have been self-serving on her part.

        But here’s the main thing, Ex is weak … he thinks he’s stabbing you in the back by mentioning that AP should be nice to you, but he’s blown it yet again … all he’s doing is showing he needs AP to tell him how to feel. He’s empty inside, and AP is filling him up with emotions he wouldn’t normally have on his own. Classic NPD.

        What your ex said to you reflects poorly on them, not on you. It’s hard to detach emotionally from this, but if you do, you start to see that whatever he says to you is just revealing more about him than you.

        You are the better person … they’re just pretending they are.

        • So very true. They both suck and it really does show how disordered they are.

          It’s difficult not to be angry sometimes but I’m slowly getting there.

    • You and me both, Unicornnomore. Nowadays when I see him being nice to mutual friends on FB I feel bad. I was worried that I’m bitter but it has just occurred to me that it’s actually my Chumpy spider-sense tingling like crazy. Not going to warn them tho because I don’t want to look bitter plus they had the chance to unfriend him.

      • Hey babe, block him on FB and you wont see anything that he does. And those “mutual friends” block them too, they are not your tribe.

        • Haha techno dinosaur here, I forgot I could do that! Thanks Chumpitty x

      • I agree – block him and anyone else. I unfriended all of his family, and blocked Dickhead and his sinister sister on all social media and on my phone. I haven’t deal this pathetic display since early last fall. I just unfriended the last of the Switzerland friends. I don’t need in my life either.

        • Instead of blocking I typed in DON’T ANSWER and attached to their numbers in my phone so if they called I would not even have to figure it out. Plus I got a chuckle out of it and made me feel a little bit of power.
          It could be fun to use a descriptive name like we do here like Dickhead, Whore or whatever you call them. Juvenile but fun.

      • AFKAC,
        Yes…watching him be nice…my cheater had a really sweet face and could be very unassuming and kind and these images of him in my mind were so deeply held that no matter how absolutely horrid he was to me, I still maintained this perception of him as kind.

        I think our marriage had a really specific sort of fuckedupmness in that because of whatever pathology he had, he constructed a narrative where everything in his life made perfect sense if you simply accepted the premise that I was a horrible wife and deserved abuse and betrayal. If that were true than all the other legos of his entire existence were in the right places. If, however, he ever acknowledged to himself that I was a kind, loving, vulnerable person worthy of respect and decency then everything else was fucked. The structure of this narrative only grew stronger over the years until it was unchangable to a point where it was too entrenched to change even if that had ever become his goal.

        • Wow, AFKAC, that must have been crazy-making. I’m sad you went through that…

        • Big hugs! Yep – STBX loved banter (tho my wonderful SIL and me couldn’t get him to see that some of his banter was actually flirting!) but in the end I stopped trying as he always assumed I was having a go at him. At discard it made me think that I must be that critical, fault-finding person, but 2 years later I know myself better – I’m not that person.

    • UNM, I agree exactly. I finally made the decision to leave when I wasn’t even sure he was cheating Again! It was the absolute cruelty and control that did me in! He was/is a mean vindictive person.

    • Unicornomore: 4 years out from DDay and 2 years divorced and no contact and my mind still goes there????????????. Part of me is still unwilling to live in reality that he is monsterous and not capable of anything different that he is: a narcissist, lying, blaming, cheating, raging, drug addict who feels entitled to whatever he wants to do 24/7.

      Despite my chumpiness, I keep no contact and keep taking actions to build me new life, which is pretty awesome most days.

    • I’m so sorry, unicornnomore. The biggest reason I stopped was because the distance forced me to. I could feel myself going crazy, and it made me obsess more. Hugs from me if you want them!

  • Can – you should consider yourself as the long term winner here – whenever shit for brains and sugarclit meet new people and he says ‘divorced’ people are going to immediately think it’s because of her – and know they have shit house values! Be glad they’re far behind (and below) you now and you can have new relationships with REAL people!

    • Ha, apparently she was still getting divorced when they started their affair! You’re so right. They are so far AND below me and my life is WAY better off without disordered fuckwits!

  • The phrases Chump Lady has established really bring about Meh (one of the golden concepts from Chump Lady).

    The other day I saw a man that looked so much like James Bond (the one I was “married” to). His hair cut, color, his body, his posture, his clothes. My heart was moved. Slowly nostalgia tried to waft from my heart. No! Do not. This will not go well. “Think.” I told myself. “Think. What did Chump Lady remind you to do in such a circumstance. Think. Do not feel for Cheater.”

    I remembered the phrase that applied. “Trust that he sucks.” That’s it! Poof! Gone was that stupid nostalgia. Back to holy Meh. Ant the other concept that helped: My ideas of who I thought he was were not real: he was a hologram (also from Chump Lady.)

    And the cartoon that helped? The shark in a suit, with a “Man” mask. That is James Bond, the Cheater.

    Thank you, Chump Lady, for saving my heart and soul. Love you much!!! Your pain bought my redemption.

    • QueenMother, SAME HERE. I can’t count how many times I have repeated to myself, “When someone shows you who they really are, you should have the courtesy to believe them.” It has helped me SO MUCH, in all relationships, really. And learning to call a spade a spade helps too. Abuse is abuse is abuse, and it’s not okay, regardless of whatever else you experience from the same person. Who cares if he seems remorseful, who cares if he offers comfort? HE IS ABUSIVE. Deal. Breaker.

    • Yes! That shark in a suit with “Fooled Ya!” written above is one of my go to thoughts when I wax nostalgic.

  • “he got really quiet and said, “Schmoopie said I should be nice to you in this time, too.”

    That was the bait so you would react in some manner that underscored how important he is to your life – even and especially when you were leaving him.

    Now you know, in your heart and head, that he sucks and he will try to get you to respond every single opportunity he is given. Don’t give it to him.

    In fact, laugh at him. Whenever he tries, laugh. He’s not worth that much effort, but in hindsight, it’s pretty funny. PLUS it will infuriate him to be laughed at.


    The primary thing is that it makes you feel better to laugh at them. The bonus is that it pisses them off.

    • Oh, he will SOOOO hate to be laughed at. Or ignored. Those are the two cardinal violations that put the shitty life skills of narc fuckwits on full display.

    • Oh yes. My X Asshat absolutely got enraged if I laughed at him. Then he mocked me and got his sing-songy voice going, repeating anything I said. Little boy games.

      He often accused me of making fun of him even before D-Day, for things I was genuinely in no way was making fun of him. It was always puzzling that he instantly thought the worst of me and made me think I must be the sort of person who was carelessly cruel. It put me on the defensive to explain how I was not making any fun and apologizing for something I didn’t do.

      I get it now, it was a way for him to keep me back on my heels, make him central to get lots of kibbles from me, and build a case for how truly terrible I was. He is a dick.

      • He was also projecting.
        How could he think you’re a nice person when he knows he isn’t? He thinks everyone is an ASSHOLE just like him.

    • Yup. They hate and I mean really hate to be laughed at or be thought of as a fool. You can yell, scream and call them every vile name in the book, just rolls right off their back. They actually enjoy it when you are crazy with anger and agony. It is a total ego boost.

      Keep thinking of them as a loser and then treat them as you would treat any obnoxious loser. It’ll make them nuts.

    • So true. Laughing at them totally bursts their bubble. I would suggest a guffaw and “you two clowns are unbelievable” followed by a head shake. Then go back to whatever you were doing. He will then want to know what you mean. He will be dying to know and also mad as hell at the insult. “You didn’t know you can’t condescend from below?” is all you give him. You then wave your hand as if shooing a fly.

  • That was just Schmoopie’s projection. She KNOWS the fuckturd can be awful so if she tells him to be nice to wifey, he’ll look favorably on Schmoopie when her time comes and maybe will be nice to her. Yeah, right.

    Schmoopie already knows her shining shit in unicorn armor is an ass. This is about her, not wifey and Cyn already has it pegged: the guy is a disordered imbecile.

      • Definitely said with calculated intent to harm, on multiple levels. However, I also hear a note of “Wait, now two people have mentioned that I should be doing this “nice” thing that never occurred to me, do I need to make a modification to my Splendid Person Persona, to improve my ability to avoid consequences while I do whatever I feel like doing?” I’m pretty sure I saw this pause-thought pass over stbx’s face multiple times, always in reference to advice given to him by others who had no idea the level of disorder they were talking to. It was a calculation of how far he could push things and still pass as human. Shark in a man suit, indeed.

    • Sounds like Schmoopie thinks she can control this guy. “I can tell him what to do because he worships me. Ex-wife is so awful that I understand why he wants to be mean to her, but I will do the magnanimous thing and ask him to be nice. I’m so wonderful and awesome and totally in control. No wonder he picked me!”

      • That’s how I felt! And that he was rubbing that in my face. They BOTH suck.

  • “Schmoopie is an elevated soul” – what an oxymoron! Thank you for the laugh on my way to work, CL! 3 years after DDay and every day on this blog – and I keep learning and laughing every day!

  • I was never afraid of my very intimidating spouse. When he turned it off I felt like I was looking into the eyes of a stranger. I tried to remind him it was ME! He was doing this to, but it was schmoopie too late. It creeped me out. Sometimes it’s hard to be with my sons because they sound like him. I’m about 85% meh but geez I really do hate him. And he’s never nice. Never was.

  • I suspect Shmoopie thinks she can reason him out of being an asshole. She thinks the lack of people who believe in him is the reason he isn’t nice. When it’s actually that he’s not nice.

  • The ow thinks she’s won some prize, he ain’t no prize. You should try and remember how badly he treated you. You are worth more.
    You deserve better, she’s doing you a favour.
    Good luck

  • OW should have practised what she preached BEFORE she screwed someone else’s husband.

    On DDay cheater told me I would really like OW, she was really nice.
    They can both take that “nice” word and shove it!

    I respect the word “nice” and use it when appropriate.
    (Just saying).

    • It’s a peculiar obscenity- the cheaters compulsion to shoe horn the AP in * your* life. Shove in your face.

      A humid hot night, those hell nights , after D Day , and I was begging and arguing and shouting on the phone with him, nose clogged from crying.

      I said something to the effect of how repellent her character is- she lost custody all of her children in her 20s for failing to protect them from physical abuse from some random guy-

      And how could he even be around someone like that? HOW COULD HE WANT HER?

      Just hysterically spinning.

      Never will I ever forget what he said:

      “Well, I’ll be where she is in about five minutes and I’ll let you ask her.”

      Yes. I’m vomiting and howling and I want to have a chat with your whore.

      That moment finally got the glue to stick- Not only does he suck, he feeds off my pain. I quietly hung up. And I believe that was the last phone contact we ever had.

      • Oh, that high they get from shoving Schmoopie in your face!

        Mine would comment on what a great mother she was because she was more like a friend with her teenage daughter than a parent! It was right after I confronted him when I read her message about her “sharing” with her teenage daughter her deep connection with my husband going back to pre-marriage days. She was and still is married to her daughter’s dad. I asked the cheater how this particular thing makes her a good mother when she does not care about emotional well-being of her child. To my knowledge, Schmoopie was never contemplating divorce from her rich and all-enabling husband and enjoyed fucking my husband along with other men. So if she was not forming a family with mine, why subject your 13yo child to this pain?

        One other incident I recall was when I was high on hopium thinking he chose me and and making future plans. I came one day from work and happily shared that I was offered a promotion and a nice pay raise. Cheater said congrats but I felt it was stinging him. In about a couple of hours, out of the blue, he came to me with this huge grin on his face. He said something along the lines of how his presence in my and “my sister’s” life had elevated our careers since we both were promoted to the same level WHILE WITH HIM!!!

        I was, like, “huh? My sister???!!!”

        Yes, the Schmoopie, he clarified. She is a sister in sorrow, so to speak, and we were both blessed having him in our lives. SMH!

        Still can’t believe the entitlement and self-fascination!

        • I’ve heard a lot of weird shit in my life – much of it here on this blog – but that takes the cake; calling his AP your ‘sister’. O-M-G I thought I had heard it all.
          How confusing that must have been. I don’t even know what to say about that.

    • Ex said that Schmoopie and I would be friends someday in the old folks home comparing notes because apparently he wasn’t being very nice to her either. Well, it may well be true that he wasn’t being nice to her but that doesn’t make her any nicer or less of a selfish slut for fucking somebody else’s husband while still married herself and willingly participating in tearing two families apart.

  • Ugh. I hate this man. I hope his dick goes limp and Schmoopie leaves him but not until she gives him a VD.

  • Aw, the OW told him to be nice. Was he nice when he was screwing her behind your back? Cheaters are not nice people. Nice people do not sneak around behind your back. It was just his way to twist the knife harder. Let the OW have the toxic waste. About 1 month before I found out about Skankella. My STBX said this to me”If we ever divorce we still could be friends and I will help you getting hay for the horses.”
    I thought that was an odd comment at the time. Why would I want to be friends with a man that cheated with my cousin for years. Cheaters and the slime they cheat with are not nice people. All they care about is the thrill of sneaking around. Who cares who the hurt as long as they get what they want. Do not give your EX anymore thought. He is not worth it.

  • I remember crying on the phone one day and ask “Wasn’t I a good wife and mother, I worked so hard to make a family and save for retirement” He calmly said, “I want that future you planned, saved and talked about, vacations with the kids, keeping the grand kids (future) at the lake house and traveling together. I want it all but with you gone and her in your place. If you disappeared, I would be happy.”

    Well I am gone, and he is married to the another one he was cheating on (me or OW did not know about her) and he has her two kids and the lake house and is in hog heaven. He does not have me or his kids (adults who do not talk to him) but I will never forget the calm gentle savagery of that comment.

    I guess we both won. He has the life I planned without us, and I have the family I love without him, peace.

    • God that is just so mean. What are people like. Mine wants his airbrushed new ‘family’ the OW and my daughter. Not quite as simple as it looks on the instagram pics is it though mate. That’s the kicker for you but you’ll go out of your way to be horrible to me because……… because what? Awful the abuse that happens (and continues) afterwards, much worse than the infidelity. Just dark. Really put me off relationship I can tell you. It’s so disordered.

    • what great insight! And he must be in Hog Heaven because it’s obvious that swine loves nothing better than rolling around in his own shit.

    • That comment from your ex was bone chilling. A person that makes that type of comment is never happy, he may feel some things, pleased with himself and current situation (for now) but he will never be happy. The guy is a psycho, a high functioning in society psycho, but an evil psycho just the same.

  • One thing I have learned through this whole process is that Nice and Kind are two completely different things.

    • I keep reminding myself of that distinction, and have put those terms into use. Instead of saying she’s a nice person, she’s a kind person. Nice can cover alot of ugly.

    • This ☝️

      Nice is the mask. Kind is authentic. I think that’s the essence of the picker problem. Chumps are kind and we fall for nice because it looks like kindness out in the wild. Like CL says, look at the actions not the words. Nice trades for m words while kind is displayed and m behavior.

    • By then I understood, which is why I was pleading for “nice”, not “kind”: I knew kindness was too much of a reach for him.

      At any rate, Chump Lady is right: I should never need to beg for civility.

  • My Ex went around telling everyone I was the controlling narcissist. That’s why he had to cheat. He was so good at spinning that story that immediately after D day I was even apologizing for being a controlling shrew and trying to figure out how to do better.

    The thing was – he did what ever he wanted our whole relationship. Go away on a guys weekend on my birthday – check, Play ball the day of our wedding, check. Spend literally every single Friday and Saturday night out with friends on his hobbies that I had no interest in, check. Leave the house almost every other night to go hang out with buddies while I put the kids to bed, check. Spend his entire paycheck on what ever he wanted while I paid the bills (including his child support) from mine, check. So how was I controlling? Well I didn’t let him talk about past (or at least what I thought were past) sexual conquests in front of me. I restricted his use of foul and racist language in front of me. Both of those things he had hidden all during the 2 years we dated – then we are married and blammo. I was not having it.
    I was always easy going about sure do your thing if you want. I figured it would balance out over time. You know – nothing is 50/50 every single day right. But the balance only ever swung further and further to his side.

    Finally a friend, tired of watching me beat myself up and try to contort reality to fit what he was saying metaphorically slapped some sense into me. Now I look back and the only thing I’m ashamed of is how totally I let myself get walked on and used. He still runs around telling people what a narc I am. We live in a small community. I just keep my mouth shut live my life and let them see for themselves. It makes spotting the disordered pretty easy – they are about the only ones that believe him for more than a day or two after actually meeting me and I don’t want those people in my life anyway!!

    I get a giggle knowing how pissed he’d be if he realized what a favor he is actually doing me.

    • I refused to et my ex swear at me. That was one of the very few boundaries I enforced on him. Apparently this made it hard for him to communicate with me because I was so easily hurt when he tried to voice his complaints.

    • Only hid his racism from you for 2 years? Saddam hid his for 17 years, then it all came out when the shit storm hit. I could not believe how racist he was after years of pretending to be an ally.

      Swear at you? The only word I despised was the C word, he called me that a lot toward the end to get a rise out of me. What drove him mad was when I began to simply agree with everything he said to me, I’d just say “OK” to every thing he said.

    • Mine told everyone the same…..narcissist is what she called me and I had never even heard that word before she said it. Said for months she wasn’t fooling around and that the OM “was just a friend, and whats wrong with having friends even if they are men”. I always let her talk to whoever she wanted and never worried about it, but I guess it just went too far with this guy. She was my best friend and always faithful all those years.

      She said some horribly hurtful things. A month after she left she texted me and said “we (her and the OM) were just friends but not anymore” which I know is a lie. She also said that my whole family hated me and, if it wasn’t for their help she would have never “gotten out.” She recruited my sister to help her get out by telling her lies and getting her on her side. All of this in the last year of our 24 year marriage. There was no mention of any of this until then. She would have my sister tell her when I was leaving work to go home. She said this was because I “would get mad if she wasn’t home working” but it was really because she didn’t want to get caught talking to the OM. My sister even helped her get my retirement account records and other financial info. She really had her fooled. They were best friends for 20 years and she used her big time.

      She did the same with my cousin, who she worked with. It didnt take them long to figure it out after she left with the OM and all but abandoned her kids. Needless to say they both live with me except for my 16 year old sons court mandated time with her. My daughter never wants to go back there and thankfully does not have to.

      So many other evil comments to try to destroy my mind came from her during the divorce. Pure Evil is her name in my phone….the most fitting description of someone who can turn like she did.

      Everyone knows this OM so when I was trying to tell them what was happening they did not believe it because he is such an ass, they would have never imagined her leaving me for the likes of him.

      Such a waste……

    • Wow. Total freak, that guy. They love to project their flaws onto you. My cheater and his AP would talk about how “controlling” I supposedly am. They judged me as such because he had a drinking problem (so does she) and I was concerned and tried to help him stop. I was sneered at by those two narc assholes for caring about my husband’s health and well-being. She urged him to leave his family because of it. Meanwhile, the manipulative bitch was making constant demands on him while giving nothing back, and he meekly obeyed her. He accidentally recorded part of a conversation with her on his phone and all he said was; “Yeah, okay, yes, allright” as she babbled on about her precious self. No exaggeration. What a candyass. After dday he said he has always found me “intimidating” and “too black and white”, presumably because I actually have a moral compass and expected him to live up to his own self-professed standards.
      Weaklings and losers, every one of them.

      • Funny. I got called “controlling” too by a past partner (while he was fucking his (underaged) best friend’s little sister).

        My response to that was “Funny that, I couldn’t control his wandering dick now, could I?”

  • Anything that comes out of a cheater’s mouth once the decision has been made to exit the relationship is either pure condescension or the pity channel.

  • I wonder if him “being nice” would be just another flavour of headfunk.

    My Ex-Wife is currently “nice”. She bakes random cookies and gets my youngest to take them to me. She sends me random photos of them looking cute. She asks me how I am. Then she buggers off on a secret mini-break with schmoopie (who she swears she isn’t seeing) and forgets to call the kids to say goodnight.

    It’s pure impression management and guilt offsetting on her part. None of the “nice” stops her doing the not-nice. To be honest, at least if a cheater’s not being nice you can call a spade a spade.

  • Cyn, you’re now (or soon will be) on the other side of the country, starting life afresh. This will all be over soon enough. I know it’s hard to think like this now, but try to enjoy your new start.

  • I’m just here to say I laughed over the “shared bond (vaginosis?)” line.

    Yep, we shared HER vaginosis.


  • Hi Cyn, I think I would have felt extremely mad about that comment, too. When I was divorcing, my husband was with the other woman, and he told me that she suggested I go to a course called, “Come Alive,” which is a month-long delve-into-your-past course for people who are trying to get over stuff. The irony of it… she created the problem and then she wanted me to go to the course so other people could help me get over it? I thought my pain was a normal reaction to the circumstance. And it was.

  • Hello fellow chump ladies, would it be okay to ask for some help with my current dilemma?

    My boyfriend called this morning and wants to get together tonight to talk about getting married.

    After two months of dating (we’re at almost a year now) he said he saw his “dream girl” in the parking lot, walking her dogs. She had red hair. He said he thought he was being tempted… (I wondered why he was telling me that! I asked about her several times but he shut me down… so I let it go.)

    I broke up with him twice because he’s a pot smoker and I’m not. The first time I broke up with him (mid-December,) he got the red-headed woman’s number. He told her he was having a bad day, as his girlfriend had just broken up with him.

    The second time I broke up with him, (early January, after the holidays,) he called her. After a few weeks of talking to her, she sent him a text message while he and I were together. I saw her name (a new name) pop up, as his phone was sitting on the arm of the couch, and inquired about her. She sent two texts right in a row. He went over and hit on the texts and they were pictures of her. One with glasses; one without. She wanted him to vote.

    This started a long conversation where he admitted that he had been talking to her on the phone. I asked if he had been to her apartment, or if she had been to his, and he said no. He said he never kissed her; nothing. We were at a restaurant, and when we got back in the car, and went back to his apartment, I just hopped in my car and went home. He called me and said he was sorry, and begged me to marry him.

    Next day I wrote him an email. (I shouldn’t have done this, but I did it.) I told him that I was too mad to say yes to marrying him. I didn’t want to break up, because I understood, on some level, how it all happened. I said there was a third way, and that was that we would just date other people. And hope to end up together.

    So that night I thought better of my email and wanted to talk to him, and called him at 8pm, but no answer. No call back the next day. The next night, I texted him to ask if we could talk, and he said, “let’s talk tomorrow? Come to my house for dinner.” I drove over to his apartment and his car was gone until 11:30pm. This is a guy with no friends, who has to be at work at 7am in the mornings, and never goes out late.

    Next night, when we were eating dinner, he said he had been to her place. She offered to cook him dinner, so of course he went. And kissed her too. (No sex, he said.) He said he knew for sure, after spending a little time with her, that he wanted to be with me.


    I really contributed to this problem. Did I bring it on? Did I invite him to go to her house? (Probably.)

    Now what?

    Can I trust him?

    Is he marriage material?

    I feel confused. And embarrassed for the confusion. I feel like an idiot.

    Great guy, except for the pot smoking. And this little episode, which he said lasted “a week…”

    Is there any help out there? I wrote to Chump Lady and she said she didn’t answer letters or take appointments, that there would be help on the forum. So here I am, asking…

    (I’m in a new town and don’t have many close friends here… I just don’t want to talk to my friends about this! I feel so humiliated…)

    • He’s shown you who he is. Someone who chases other women and leaves you waiting until 11:30 at night when he invited you over. Not marriage material. If he asked you to marry him, it was to take you off the market while he continues to shop. Don’t go there. Please don’t go there.

      • Awwww… I wrote that wrong. It sounded like he left me waiting, but it was the night I texted him, and he said, “come over tomorrow,” that I drove by his place and saw his car gone, and knew he was with her. He was on time for me.

        But I don’t know. Is this who he is? Or was he heartbroken because I broke up with him, and she showed up at the very same time, and he just decided to go for it?

        It’s confusing to me, because I’m in it.

        Thank you SO MUCH for your reply! It doesn’t seem as terrible as the stories here, which is probably why it wasn’t posted, but it seems terrible to me. My stomach is sick about it. And he doesn’t understand why it’s such a big deal to me. And I don’t understand that he doesn’t understand… he tells me to just quit talking about it… it was only for a week… and they didn’t even have sex…

        • It’s a big deal to you because he is talking marriage with you while he’s stepping out with her. And don’t believe it was “only a kiss.” He’s been pursuing her for months. The reason your story isn’t as bad as most of us here is because you are only in the first chapter. If you fast forward 15 or 20 or 30 years, perhaps add in a child or two, you’ll fit right in. You’ll be looking back and realizing that you’d been had in a big way for a substantial period of your precious life. Listen to yourself: “He tells me to just quit talking about it . . . it was only for a week . . . and they didn’t even have sex.” You are being groomed to accept this behavior. And worse.

          • My worries exactly. But didn’t I invite it with my stupid email about dating others? Weren’t all bets off when I broke up with him?

            • He would have given himself permission in any event. And that’s my point.

        • “he doesn’t understand why it’s such a big deal to me” There’s your answer right there. He doesn’t love you enough to be married to you if the things that matter to you are no big deal to him. This is especially true if he is the one who made you feel bad in the first place, intentional or not.

        • Listen to yourself “My stomach is sick.” “He doesn’t understand “. Do not marry him. Someone who loves you will be more concerned with your feelings about anything that happened than whether they had sex or it was only a week, a month, whatever.

          • Thank you. Yes, my stomach is a good indicator sometimes of what is happening!

            • Your gut feeling is a superpower! Listen to it! I only wish I had listened to mine many years earlier. Turn, run and don’t look back.

    • You can’t trust him. He is not marriage material. If you are this uncertain now before you are even officially engaged, how can you ever be certain of him later after you have been married for any number of years. He is more likely to get worse than to get better. Right now is the best your relationship will ever be and it doesn’t sound very good. Why sign up for a lifetime of misery.

      • Thank you! ♥

        I don’t want to hear this. I want to hear, “yes! of course you caused this problem! If you hadn’t broken up with him… if you hadn’t written him that email…” but here is the truth… I don’t think I would have gone out with someone else if there had been a turnaround. I’d have been devastated by the breakup for a while. And I’d have told a guy who was interested to call me after some months had passed, to be sure I wouldn’t get back together with my boyfriend…

        My boyfriend also says he did it because I hurt him by breaking up with him, and that hurt so much that he wanted me to feel hurt, too…

        Oooh… that sounds so terrible! I can’t believe I wrote it! But he said it. I said, “That’s a tit for tat…” and he said, “Okay…”

        • “My boyfriend also says he did it because I hurt him by breaking up with him, and that hurt so much that he wanted me to feel hurt, too…”

          So he’s spiteful to boot.


            • Please don’t marry him!!!!! I had a boyfriend (smoked pot also) in college who I dated for 4 years. I was faithful he was a cheater. He wanted to get married, but my parents knew he was no good and saved me from a lot of heartache. Please listen. He’s being spiteful. My guy had an excuse everytime and somehow it was my fault. Your guy is doing the same thing that was done to me. I was sad, but eventually I met a good and honest guy. Please listen. I bet if you talk to your friends they will tell you the same thing, get rid of him.
              I am new to this but I have a daughter and I would tell her to RUN, it is not love. Love is patient, and does not dishonor, not self seeking and keeps no record of wrongs.

        • Also remember why you broke up with him in the first place. You indicate that reason doesn’t matter to you anymore, but it should. Why should there being another girl in the mix make a difference? It’s just one more reason to get out. Why dance for somebody you don’t really want?

      • Do you feel comfortable with how quick he moved on? Is it ok with you that he is discussing his attraction another woman in detail to you when you are supposed to be his future wife? Why do you think he did that? I am afraid this looks all too familiar to the early days of my relationship in regards to talking about other females. The answer I learned many years later, was that he always needed me to feel off balance. I was always one mistake or flaw away from being replaced. Do think that may have been his motive for discussing his attraction to this other woman? It is normal to have attraction towards another person, it is not a good sign when someone acts on it, gives it a great deal of attention when he is supposed to love you & supposed to protect your heart. Is your heart being protected (actions) or are there just words about wanting to marry you (ask yourself this while reviewing these situations)? You owe to yourself to ask yourself a lot of questions and give yourself honest answers before you do anything more.

        • I had the same thing only it didn’t start until over half way through my marriage when he had the emotional affair and made it clear that if I wasn’t good enough for him he had other options. I then spent 8 years pick me dancing only to have him leave me for another anyway because I had failed to live up to his standards. I am kicking myself now. I would like to think I would not have married him if he had displayed such behavior when we were dating. One of the reasons I married him in the first place was because I thought he wasn’t like that. I am pissed that he was either hiding it all along or he allowed himself to turn into an asshole after I was already entrenched and committed. Light Heart, he is showing you his true self. Get out now before it becomes much more difficult later.

          • Same. Light Heart, listen to your gut not your heart. And if he is not as bad as it seems, then he will prove to you through his words and actions that he is sincere. But it sounds to me like you have the opportunity to do what most of us wish we could have be given — the chance to get out and away before having to endure years of devaluation and abuse.

        • You’re right. I think I will take a time out and think about all this!

    • I would not marry this guy. If you enjoy his company and aren’t feeling the need for a relationship that is “going somewhere,” starting a family, etc., then you could continue to hang out with him with no expectations. But I would not entangle myself financially or legally with someone like this. And definitely always use protection!

      • Thank you, Rebel.

        Nahhhh… I’m looking to get married, not to just have a hang-out relationship… I already had my family but I believe in marriage, even though my ex cheated on me. I just want to be wise with the decision!

        • You know what the answer is: you’ll be one of the Chumps weeping and wailing about your broken heart and vanished dreams, because he screwed your bridesmaid at the wedding reception.

            • Run away from him. He is grooming you. You objected to illegal drug use. A perfectly reasonable objection. Hell – objection to alcohol use – even though legal is still reasonable if it is important to you.

              If he cannot respect what is important to you, If he feels the need to “punish” you spitefully when you try to hold your personal boundaries, If he is already trying to make you “pick me” dance by bringing up other women, If he thinks so little of his offer to marry you that he spends a night out kissing another woman – he is no marriage material. He is a walking talking train wreck.

              Seriously – Cash in your ticket for the heart break express and start looking for an alternate mode of transportation Light heart. This guy will fit you with cement shoes and a whole wagon train of heavy baggage to drag around after the crash and burn. Don’t go there.

        • If you wind up pregnant by this guy do not, I REPEAT DO NOT put his name on the birth certificate. That little bit of child support you’d get out of him is NOT WORTH the amount of control you’d have to give up ton”coparent” with him. Do not do it!!!!

    • Oh also, the stoner-not stoner divide is a huge one. If that’s already been an issue in your relationship, it will not go away.

      I suggest you write to Captain Awkward; this is the kind of situation she specializes in, and the commenters there can be very helpful. Baggage Reclaim is another good site to visit for advice on situations like these.

      You have nothing to lose by waiting, and potentially many years of unhappiness to gain by rushing into a marriage when you’re not sure of this guy’s real intentions — witness all the stories on this site! And you didn’t *cause* any of his behavior. Like Ross and Rachel, the *very day* he had “permission” and you two were “on a break” he ran off to check out someone new. That is important information about him. Consider: if the situation were reversed, would you have gone to the home of another guy the very day he told you he wanted some time after finding out you were texting someone behind his back?

      • Yes, I know! The stoner thing was the original deal breaker.

        Turn around? I don’t know.

        I have reversed the situation in my mind. Let’s say we were dating, and a guy came up the street with his dog, and talked to me. I would have just talked to him, not given him the cold shoulder, because I’m friendly. If he did that a lot, and we got to know each other, as friends, I might have told my boyfriend about him, maybe not. And if he wasn’t a stoner, and was a spiritual guy, and if he was single and looking for someone, and if I was attracted to him, and my boyfriend BROKE UP with me, and I saw this guy again, I might have told him I was having a bad day, and why. And if the new guy asked for my phone number, I might have given it to him.

        So yes, turn-around could have happened.

        But… once the second breakup happened, and the guy called, I’d probably have to tell the boyfriend that I was going to start seeing the new guy. I don’t think I’d go over to the new guy’s house and suddenly be kissing him! On the heels of a breakup! I hope not. I never had an affair even though I was in a hopeless marriage…

        The good stuff about this guy is so good… but he has never been married! His dad told him, “Never get married, because there’s always someone better just around the corner…” He went with what his dad said but the variety and the loneliness and staying in a superficial relationship is just not satisfying for him. He wants more now. But he has those old ways instilled in him. Probably he just went into action when I broke up with him, out of habit and instinct.


        Am I off base?

        And why am I more concerned now about this other girl than I am about the pot smoking?

        And last night I went over to his house, and all was going well, and he started talking about all the gorgeous women who work in the office building where he is stationed (he does commercial construction…) It turned me off so much (and I had been so hot to kiss him!) that I left early. Nicely, but firmly…

        • Light Heart, I rarely come here anymore and barely post but your issue here I feel like I have to say something. LISTEN to your gut, it’s telling you to GTFO and you are over riding it big time. Lots of rationalization of his behavior from you, it’s called spackle here. Break up with the dude for good, stop worrying about his dream girl with the red hair, you are not his dream girl, that he even said that to you… Anyway, There are billions of people on the planet, find someone who doesn’t break your deal breakers.

          PS: If you’ve never read it, please get ‘Gift of Fear’, it’s very useful to get you back in touch with your intuition, that gut level response you are having to this jerk, he’s an asshole treating you the way he is. You didn’t ‘make’ him do anything. Also, read about your second brain, those gut feelings/intuition, whatever you want to call it is very real:

          • Hmmmmm… thank you Datdamwuf!

            Yes, I did read that book, many years ago. And what an interesting article on the 2nd brain! I didn’t know that there were so many neurotransmitters in the gut. No wonder I always feel it there when I have heartbreak.

            And my heart has broken over this. It’s such a little thing compared to an out and out affair, like so many have described here! But I’ve learned not to compare suffering. Suffering is suffering. I guess that so many talk about multiple D-Days because they were so forgiving. I want to forgive, too! And look the other way, and act as though it never happened… and he would like for me to do that, too.

            Thank you for your input!

        • Always someone better around the corner? So you are there to keep him company while he continues shopping? Not a good plan.

          • Well, that was his dad’s advice, many years ago, and it’s the life he has lived. He sees the vanity of it, and the surfaceness of it, and would like to go deeper now… with me…

            • He may say that, but his actions say, very loudly, ‘I AM FOLLOWING DAD’S ADVICE BECAUSE IT WORKS FOR ME.’

              Honey, you sound like someone who dated too soon after being Chumped. Your picker needs fixing, and you do that through being single and having good friends.

              This guy could not be a worse choice. I really do mean that.

              Don’t beat yourself up – get away from him, DON’T BE THE FALLBACK GIRL ANY MORE, and do some grieving and thinking about why you chose him and tolerated his poor treatment of you.

    • Don’t invest more time in him. This “episode” as you call it is who he is. Him telling you about it doesn’t make him an honest bloke, it show you he is trying to control you and make you contort yourself to fit his ideal. Don’t marry, don’t have kids. Trust me, it’s heartbreaking for you to leave now, but in a few years trying to leave with a child and then being tied to him forever because of family, that is torture.

      Find a man that calls YOU his dream girl.

    • Sweetie the thing I can’t get over here is that he asked you over for dinner, then didn’t turn up til almost midnight.
      And he was at another woman’s house, his ‘dream girl’s.
      He didn’t contact you during the evening to cancel dinner? So you could get home? He wasn’t worried enough about your wellbeing to spare a moment from his sparkly dream girl. Dump him sweetie and find someone who will be eagerly waiting at home to see you, with your favourite meal piping hot!
      Hugs xx

      • Oh no, I wrote that wrong!

        He asked me for dinner the NEXT night, and was there, with dinner prepared, when I arrived, saying I was his one and only one and that he was MY man…

        • Oh I see, sorry lovely!
          Reminds me of the time I had to flee the family home because I was headed for a nervous breakdown, after a few days when he came to collect me he told me I’m yours forever if you want me.’ Three months later when I told him it was the OW or me, he left. I still find it hard to accept he could tell me these lies.
          Sweetie if you want a real marriage and you have ANY doubts, leave him. Look for someone you are 100% sure of.

          • Wow. Thank you so much for telling me that. I’m sorry that happened to you! And it does seem like a similar thing that he’s saying here… he’s talking about being my man FOR THE MOMENT… and yours said he was your forever! Wow… I’m sorry. That stings even now, I suppose…

    • Dump him. He’s stringing you along and this will be the first of too many incidents like this one. You are not a consolation prize!

      • I thought of the same thing! The same words! Oh, she disqualified herself, because she said she’d never go to church with him, and she cussed a lot, and had to put a restraining order on her ex, and was generally not a good fit for him. So, back to me… wow! You’re right…

        • And you have no evidence that ANY of that is even true. It could be bullshit. Were you there, when any of these things happened?

    • Can we go back to this?

      After two months of dating (we’re at almost a year now) he said he saw his “dream girl” in the parking lot, walking her dogs. She had red hair. He said he thought he was being tempted… (I wondered why he was telling me that! I asked about her several times but he shut me down… so I let it go.)”

      That – that right there is your big overly-large blinking red sign! I will almost guarantee that anything he has said what he has or has not done is either a total or a partial truth.

      You should be the dream girl. Go be somebody’s dream girl – he doesn’t deserve you.

        • Yes, you’re right. If he thought she was better, that in itself disqualifies him, no matter what he did with her! Hey. I’m seeing it.

          Thank you.

    • Light Heart,

      My vote says to dump him. You wrote that your ex cheated on you. Did you ever truly heal from that and “fix your picker” ?

      You wrote that you (not him) dumped him twice already ? Why ? There has to be a good reason for that. I know a woman who was involved with a man for eight years (thank God she never married him) while he jerked her around and used her as a security blanket. He would break up with her after meeting a bigger,better, deal so he could explore. Invariably the women would see him for who he is,dump him and he would go back to his security blanket.

      He has no friends ? Not healthy.

      A pot smoker ? And you’re not. Is that how he handles stress ?

      • I also wanted to comment on how rude and disrespectful it is for a bf/gf/partner/spouse to go on (at length) about how attractive somebody is in front of their significant other. Flirting with somebody in front of your s.o. takes it to another level. Maybe that’s just me.

        • No, I’m with you on that! I hated it that he told me he saw a “temptation” in the parking lot! Wow. Did he think I would feel happy for him? Why did he tell me that?

          Not sure I ever fixed my picker. Not sure how to do that!

          I dumped him because he smokes a LOT of pot, and I don’t smoke it at all. Consequently I live my life and I’m happy that the police are around to protect me. He’s scared of police, detectives, the government, and it goes on and on, and I’m not even sure I know who he really is, as he is always under the influence. I won’t say he gets high, because I don’t even think he does! He just smokes it to get to normal… he’s been smoking since he was a young teenager.

          Thank you for your opinion! It’s all adding up to me.

    • No marriage. If you like being treated like just “take a number to get slept with”, then continue this “relationship”.

      Value yourself. Dump this guy.

    • Okay, I’m goung to lay some tough love on you and give you a reality check, because this is insane. You did NOT cause this. He most likely had already had sex with her before you suggested dating other people. At the very least they were already planning to, and they clearly were emotionally involved. He is definitely not marriage material. He’s lied and cheated while trying to get you to marry him? Then just imagine what he’ll do after you marry him. A geat guy? Nope. A creep and a loser. Run! When I was first dating my ex, he hit on some chick at a party when I was at the same party. I didn’t know about that until he confessed it recently. If I had known, no way would I have married the asshat, and I’d have dumped him right away. By your your bf being stupid enough to let you see who he really is, you have been given the golden ticket out of what would prove to be a hellish marriage. I’m pretty sure most of us chumps wish we had been given that ticket. Please use it.

      • Golden ticket.

        I will think about this.

        “they clearly were emotionally involved.” – You’re right. They were. I mean, he told me that he said he might put a restraining order on her if she kept bugging him. (Just after he “broke up” with her.) I said “wow, it was that bad?” And he said, “Did you see Fatal Attraction?”


        I’m glad you said something about this. Maybe I’ll use this golden ticket. It’s good to think that the heartbreak might be a warning sign! And that I can take action now to prevent future loss…

        Thank you.

        • Sweetheart, we chumps are all pulling for you and wishing for your happiness. If we can save even one person from going through what we did then maybe our pain has some meaning in this random universe. That’s what this blog is for. Much love.

    • You need to Run. Away. Now. He’s just playing games . No one who is thinking about getting married can turn it on and off like that. This person will never be faithful— you are worth more than this. I suggest a little therapy to fix your picker before you end up like all the rest of us.

    • This isn’t the forum. This is the blog. Anyway…

      Run, run away. He asked you over for dinner at his place and then he didn’t show up. That should tell you Game Over. The next day he told you he was with another woman instead of you, she fed him dinner, but he’d still rather be with you. That should tell you Game Over Again. Don’t beat yourself up. Just get out!

    • Don’t marry him. My fuckwit used this excuse nonstop – “but we were broken up!” And after several years, the lines began to blur on what “broken up” meant. Got into an argument? Broken up. He’s mad at me? Broken up. There were times I thought everything was peachy keen, then when I confronted him on his cheating timeline, we were “broken up!” Without my knowing! It’s definite grooming, 100%. Mine also used marriage as leverage card (praise the Lord that never happened!)

  • “Pleading for civility is a classic chump move.” Oh yes, it is. Great advice.

  • She should have said to him “I don’t need your adultery partners advice or input”.

    • Ha, I wish my brain had been that quick! I like that. Hopefully there will be no next time for me to use your phrase

  • My cheater strung me along for a few weeks after what the discovery day when an unlocked phone revealed that 17 years of “married until death do us part” was not what I thought it to be. He said he loved us both. He never wanted to hurt me. He was so nice. And so I went from angry to consoling. I finally gave him an ultimatum in the heat of an argument and he chose her. I’m so aggressive and mean about his indecision and she’s so sweet and understanding. During that period of confusion I contacted the OW and asked her to please give us time to work on our marriage as it wasn’t fair to our 17 years together and 2 children to offer him strings-free sex while he was trying to figure out life decisions. That was stupid. She had a kid and a husband so I thought she’d understand. She responded and I felt completely inferior because she sounded so wise and together. I had a moment of total insanity when I thought THE 3 OF US COULD BE FRIENDS! And I am not one prone to such insanity. I saved some great quotes from her response to me: She said, “I’m not getting involved in his decision with regard to his marriage, this is a decision he has to make on his own and I would ask of you to allow him the same. The reality is that there was clearly something missing in his life for him to go find himself elsewhere or again. I would just ask you to also listen to his side. We’re not horrible people either and we’re not trying to hurt anyone, this was not intentional. I hope you can understand at some point that all he’s searching for at the moment is to be his true self.” Don’t worry after I intercepted some texts of what she said to him behind my back (I’m such a “drama queen” getting all upset over the destruction of my 17 year marriage for which I gave up my career and being “abusive” to him with my acerbic wit), I realized she was utterly full of pedantic poo. His penis just unintentionally fell inside her vagina, mouth, etc and he realized how awesome it was to place it there without having to hear anything about broken air conditioners and kids’ schoolwork from her. But she’s being super nice by letting him decide whether to end his marriage. Sure. Why are all the people in the city we bombed so pissed off at us? We’re not pissed off at them. Even the guy that ordered the bomb drop is ok with it.

    • Was is it about 17 years? I keep seeing that. Mine blew up after 17. So did 2 family members. Someone I met recently had her D-Day after 17 years.

      Instead of the 7-year-itch maybe there’s the 17-year-cant-fake-it-anymore-in-the-marriage

      and yes please UBT the hell out of that OW drivel

      • We were a few months from the 18th anniversary and the divorce was final just 3 weeks shy. We were together almost 19 years. (shaking my head) he was never really worth it.

      • Yes 17 years!!! It’s comforting to know it’s happened to others though.

    • Every word out of an OW/OM’s mouth is sickening. They are immoral freaks.

  • Woah! Madkd!

    What a story.

    Yes, I think that infidelity is surely intentional. It takes a lot of planning and rationalizing to go into a taboo situation for some highs…

    I like it that you contacted her to ask her to give space so a good decision could be made. Her comeback was not good as she was totally in the wrong. She should have said yes. She should have given space. And she should have said she was sorry. And that she would never do it again.

    • To do that, she’d have to be a human being instead of a pod person. I love how they always insist it “wasn’t intentional”. It’s cognitive dissonance on steroids with these whackjobs.

  • I do recall ex telling me “I am trying to make this as easy on you as I can”. Bitch cookie anyone? Of course I don’t think you can call telling me “I wish I hadn’t been so nice to you, maybe I would have gotten better out of you” making it easy on me.

    He also claimed that Schmoopie felt bad about their affair and thought I was a great person. Ok, then why did she go through so much trouble to not let him go when he supposedly broke it off in order to not really reconcile with me (texting 24/7, showing up at his work and sending him movie invites)? Also, when I complained that he cared more about her feelings than mine he said she felt the opposite was true. He also implied that she was not happy that I am the beneficiary on his life insurance policy until the last kid turns 18. Seems a bit contradictory there. Is she the magnanimous better person who thinks the world of me or is she a clueless self-centered slut who feigns caring but is really pissed that he still has anything to do with me that doesn’t involve screwing over me and the kids?

  • This passage is a reminder that when we project our own values and thoughts onto a cheater, including APs. we are almost always wrong. They are not like us:
    “I must take exception to your theory about Schmoopie, however:

    she was looking to the future, to when he would cheat on her, and wanted to be sure he could be nice to someone he’d cheated on.

    Ye-ah. No. Cheaters never cheat on the Special, Cyn. Until they do, and then it’s a huge shock — and much more unjust than anything that ever happened to you. No, trust that Schmoopie’s sole objective here is condescension. And he is weaponizing her condescension, to hurt you on the way out the door.”

  • When my cheater told me he was going to leave for good, it was early December, Christmas season, and he was giving me three weeks notice. I figured that he would eventually hook up with his AP, who I thought he hadn’t been in contact with for months. While I was preparing for Christmas and keeping the imminent separation under wraps from our families so as not to ruin everyone’s holiday, I was prioritizing the kids, trying to figure out how to break the news to them, reading up on co-parenting, getting children’s books from the library about separation, splitting up clothing/belonging to go between two household.

    Even during the separation, I continued my chumpiness in the belief that my STBXH cared one iota about the co-parenting conversations I attempted to engage him in. I created visuals to share between the households to maintain consistency for our son with autism, suggested monthly family outings so the kids could see that the family could still get along, and even took the kids over to his place the first time to show them around so that if they saw Mommy there, they could feel better about the new place.

    Then, within a day of his leaving, I discovered the secret email account…the one in which he kept up multiple messages a day with the OW describing details of his wreckonciliation so that they could be reunited. He mocked my pain in those emails. He mocked my attempts to be conciliatory. He was condescending about his family. He didn’t care at all about forging a new sort of relationship with me in the co-parenting of our children. He made me look a fool.

    I crumbled. He couldn’t even give me a separation with some measure of dignity and respect. He was found by my cousin already at the other woman’s house shovelling her snow after he had just stepped out of our home together and left me with the kids to deal with the aftermath of a major winter storm on my own. A burst pipe and flooding, and he just shrugged his shoulders and told me that he never cared for the house and was glad to be leaving it.

    Once the emails were discovered, it was learned that his grand plan was to keep the OW on the downlow for a while before coming out of the closet so that people would not suspect it was an affair. It was his grand plan of impression management. I ruined that for him and he was not happy. At point, I asked him why he found it so difficult to treat me even the basic courtesy that would be given to a stranger, after all he got what he wanted, didn’t he? He’s rid of me, he has the woman of his dreams, why isn’t he on cloud nine and able to be gracious. His answer was to gaslight me further – I’m just imagining things and I should be reminded that he’s always had a communication problem.

    Within weeks, I learned of grey rock. That was helpful immediately. Actually, once he noted that I was shutting him down at every drop off with the kids, he turned even darker for a bit before he shut down entirely. Thank God.

    Now he’s being nice to me again. I know to be suspicious of it. If he things for second that enough time has lapsed (15 months) that we can “be friends,” he is delusional. I am always courteous, but I do not engage in anything beyond the business of our kids. We will NEVER be friends. I will NEVER engage him in much chit chat. Last week, he told me that he was going for an interview for a new position, I didn’t even respond, nor have I inquired about how the interview went. Don’t know if he’ll tell me whether he gets the new job, but I’ll find out if there’s been a raise next year after taxes, I guess.

    Done! No more eggo kibbles. Done!

    Cyn, you will reach a point when his reaction will no longer matter. If he isn’t nice, it may be annoying for minute, but then you’ll shrug it off with a “what an ass” attitude and move on. You might even get your own eggo kibbles from it too, “Haha, he’s still invested enough to try to yank my chain. Whatever. Loser!” But mostly, I find myself just thinking, “Oh so sad. Didn’t have to be this way. Now off to my really blessed life.”

    He sucks.

    • I love your username, OptionNoMore. And I’m so sorry to hear he was so cruel to you. Glad you’re doing better.

      I’m over a year and a half out from moving away and rebuilding my life and I think I’ve reached that point! There’s a hint of “shame it had to end the way it did” along with “he isn’t worth the energy to continue being angry”. Thanks for your kind words!

    • “Now he’s being nice to me again. I know to be suspicious of it.” Oh, I know this one. Good for you for getting it. Sometimes, discovering these underhanded communications are a blessing–can really knock some sense into us chumps. What a cruel cruel man he is.

    • All so familiar. Next time my ex will be nice to me will be quite soon I would say when he wants me out of the house. We are coming up to a year, hs the same 4 months to adjust which meant ‘make it look like he did not have an affair’ then it just got nastier amd he became more pompous all really because I found out and told the truth about what really happened. He is so utterly patronising in the few email exchanges we have. Ow (9 keep them to a minimum but can only grey rock cause of our daughter). Ithey all get mailed to my friends for a good laugh. It will never cease to amaze me how similar these stories are. Someone should tell you about this BEFORE it happens but you would not believe it O suspect.

  • After my ex (then husband of 27 yrs) screamed “fuck you fuck you” at me for refusing to talk to the OW on the phone because she just “wants to say hi,” I capitulated so he’d shut up and got on to hear her say that she wanted “to be a resource for me” (because as someone who’d been divorced 3 times herself, she wanted to guide me through divorce so she could start fucking my husband without guilt?) Like WTF!?

    • Wow. Just wow. Where do they learn this shit? That’s just beyond reprehensible. WTF exactly.

    • HAHA….mine also want me to just get along with everyone, the OM included. I know this is because she thinks it will help her relationship with our son. I don’t tell him what to do with regard to that but I am certainly not going to help him to be friends with her lover boy. He can make his own decisions regarding that. Like im supposed to help them be a big happy family… is right.

  • To me the comment is in the same arena with all the other things cheaters say to impress upon you that the AP is a really, really good person. It’s part of the impression management (of the cheater, not really the AP). Hah, Saddam talked about how amazing the OW was quite often, saying shit like she was ‘helping him with our marriage’, later that she was ‘better than either of us’ and so much more about how wonderful she was. Oh yeah, and she was such a good person, she couldn’t possibly have that STD, I must have picked it up somewhere else… I look back and think it was so pathetic, but at the time it made me quite angry.

    • Why would he be sharing such things with you? Was he delusional enough to think you’d continue on as a supportive confidant? Was he hoping for your approval?

    • OMG this. He wants to think that Schmoopie is this glowing wonder of a radiant being, and of course I’ll understand that he couldn’t pass up her platinum-plated pussy! He’s a mere mortal! Gag me, I’m so much better off without him!

      I’m sorry to hear that, and I’m glad you can look back and see how pathetic they are now.

  • NOTHING pissed me off worse than when the whore told my cheating XH something to ‘tell’ me. Ugh. Can’t wait until he cheats on her and dumps her ugly ass. Of course she believes that she has the platinum pussy that can make that leopard change his spots. Pfffttt.

  • I moved out and away from Asshat last August, and have been pretty strictly NO CONTACT. About a month ago, I ordered myself a new sheet set for my bed, and when I placed the order online, an app that I used gave me $65 off the purchase price, which was a wonderful surprise. I updated the ‘billing address’ thinking that it would automatically update the ‘shipping address’ at the same time. I realized it hadn’t when I received an order confirmation e-mail an hour later. I called the company to explain the mistake (I really DID NOT want my new hot pink bed sheets sent to my ex’s house). Nice customer service rep was sympathetic, but their policy only allowed 30 minutes from the time the order was placed to make changes. My only option was to cancel the order and place it again– which I would have done, but since I’d received the $65 discount and couldn’t be certain I would get it again on a re-order, I decided to send Asshat an e-mail explaining that a package was being sent to his house as I had messed up when I ordered it, so I would need to pick it up from outside the house when it was delivered. I also asked if he would be kind enough to put my canopy bars for my bed out so I could pick them up at the same time, gave him a description and the last known location in the house so he could find them easily. He wrote back and said he’d found them, and would leave them on the porch along with a box of things of mine that he’d found around the house that I might want. Great. Nice of him. Or so I thought.

    I received a text from USPS that the package was delivered, so I was planning to pick the stuff up after I got off of work. Right after I got off work at 2 pm, I was picking up a few things in the store before leaving and my 28-year-old daughter called, wanting to know if I’d like to meet up for late lunch/early dinner. I told her sure, but I needed to go get the package, etc. first. She picked up on the fact that I really hated having to go over there, and she volunteered to go get the stuff and meet me back at my house. She went and got the stuff, that gave me time to change and relax a bit. Then she showed up, we put the stuff in my apartment and went out to eat. When we came back, we cut open the box. It was a hodgepodge of some VERY personal things (my older daughter’s things, who passed away unexpectedly in 2010- school pictures and report cards, some of her personal letters, etc). And THIS fucking note written in marker on an inside flap of the box (courtesy of Asshat’s 27-year-old girlfriend).

    “THINGS FOR KATIE!!! DON’T FORGET THE CANOPY BARS!!!” (complete with a smiley face drawn on it).

    My daughter saw it first. She was LIVID. I was stunned. I cannot even fathom the mindset that would think that note was even a tiny bit appropriate. I didn’t react to Asshat, never said a word about it. Some people!

  • Thank you, Chump Lady and Chump Nation! I got a slow start today (been stuck in work meetings at my fabulous day job which is part of my victorious new life, no sarcasm there!) so I’m just now getting a chance to read through and respond. You are so right: he sucks! They suck! Period! No more info is needed and I can put an EX across that relationship and EXIT from the mindfuck spiral. Thanks again for your biting wit and no-BS attitude, it’s just what I need to keep moving towards meh.

  • One of the many triangulation comments I had to endure was “She’s praying we can rekindle our love” (I didn’t know we had any problems, so I reallyyyy appreciated that he was complaining to the whore instead of me) and “She’s praying for you, too” Like the one who broke all kinds of commandments has any idea how to act like an ethical human? That killed me. Or…”she’s a good woman.” Yeah, right. She never even told him she was married. A crazy histrionic narc really duped my hub, the covert narc. Good luck with that one. She’s on marriage #5 or 6. I will pray for her. NOT.

    • Even evil people don’t usually like to think of themselves as evil.

      One medium even claimed, on the side, during talk of something else, that evil spirits don’t like to be called “evil spirits”. Why all the evil stuff then?

      Shouldn’t the Earthbound spirits of the Nephilim descendants (or those spirits of non-Christian people with enough Nephilim in them to count still) try to police themselves better, if they don’t want to be called “evil”? It sounds like our exes again, with making consequences they then don’t like, doesn’t it?

      Satanists even have their self-story and view of the Universe turned around to the point where they can tell themselves they are saving the World. When they try to make it the official religion or else, it won’t sound so funny.

      But even people who embrace evil like to think of themselves as “good”.

      My cheater ex-wife kept trying to email my next girlfriend sabotage attempts, and she would try to disguise her evil by wrapping Herself in, not exactly congruent, sort of “religiousy” talk. It was as if she wanted to think of herself as “the good person” in things. She had cheated on Me for 3 years, which I discovered after he committed suicide.

      When she didn’t snap out of it over the next year, I was still chumpy enough to only be almost done. I was going to help her, you know.

      The ex herself ended things hard while I was on a business trip. She much later said it was supposed to have been a trick to make me run to her and auto-forgive her, or similar. — Anyway, she proposed separation for divorce and wouldn’t hear any different, over 2 hours of talk. I went to bed sad, but I woke saying, Why did I fight that?

      I went through a process of acceptance in another day or so. It was like having been separated for years, anyway.

      Then, I got a friend request from a female co-worker from 7 years ago who had wanted me then. I responsibly told my then-wife about her, since I knew I liked her a little too much, with too much naturally in common. Ta dah! Add a little avoidance too, and I make future crime harder for me, just in case.

      That sounds dorky to some, but I have had a building awareness over time of just how easily ensnared, and ensnaring, that an unaware and/or arrogant man with weak boundaries can be, especially when it comes to infidelity.

      Ego stroking hits men really effectively over a short time, with the seemingly built-in thing about gravitating toward where we feel the most honor. — So, “Hey honey. You know about me loving you and stuff? Remember me saying things about that? Yeah. Yeah….. about that, um… ”

      —- Brrrrr! It’s like somebody walked on my future grave, as some would say. — No. Thank. You. Makes me feel goose pimples (alarm at thinking of me being in that situation) And start tearing up to think about it (thinking of my CW’s not having used those alarms).

      Honorable women, start your own dating service. Good guys will beat down its server doors to get in there. Screen the Hell out of everyone and teach narcissist spotting and preparatory defensive thought against bigger pitfalls. I’d pay more, like an mf. Narc women can hear my damned heartbeat on the wind.

      —– Sooo. When separated, I could date. I checked, and there was nothing that said I had to desperately try to make up with my cheater ex after we separated, like her odd plan was supposed to cause.

      She then acted as if me dating after we separated for the purpose of divorce, at Her behest, was ME cheating on her! I wasn’t a good little puppet or something. The Lucy and Ethel plan backfired.

      She got NC from either of us, but she kept at it for a while, off and on.

      Often, these people will try to wrap themselves in something they think of as good. Even doing like bad politicians do as they wrap themselves in a cause.

      • “If you oppose me now, you are opposing this thing I hug to myself.”

        “I say I’m against racism. Now, disagreeing with me is racist, even if you just disagree with my ideas, even if only what you say holds any water, and I plainly lie.

        “In fact, if you disagree with me now, you are likely to be more than just some kind of -ist.

        “You may also even be, a phobe-a-phobe.”

        • “narc women can hear my heartbeat on the wind”…..

          I’m known as a “narc magnet” to my friends. good people attract narcs. I have no idea where good chumpy men hang out. its good to know there are some of you out there. There are a lot of us chumpy women too. We need something we can wear to ID each other.

  • My ex’s mistress offered to pick me up at the airport when I went to visit him for our 10th anniversary (he was stationed overseas at the time). Oblivious me didn’t know she was his mistress–I thought at that point he was capable of platonic female friendships. Thank God I declined, on “I-will-be-gross-after-a-twelve-hour-flight” grounds.

    After D-Day he pointed out how selfless Jean was, because she would cry all the time about how I was at home and he was married to me, and how could they do this behind my back??? Poor selfless Jean.

    When I pointed out to my ex that these crying sessions were just her trying to manipulate him into leaving me, he didn’t even deny it. I doubt he heard me though. He was worshiping hard at the altar of Saint Jean by then. I was the evil bitch interfering with their true love.

    • Liz, I’m so sorry. The discard is always cruel. Hope you’re feeling better now and he’s a faint speck in your rearview mirror.

  • My example of the AP being nice actually starts with my ex saying the nice things about her AP’s wife. When I caught her co-worker texting her to have sex with him the next Monday, she swore up and down that they were just flirting because they were stressed out at work and nothing happened or will happen.

    I, of course, didn’t believe it and broke into her email. Besides reading the fun sent emails she forgot to erase of her wanted his c*ck in her mouth again, one email actually hurt me far more.

    It was one where she reminded him to love his wife because she also deserved love. No mention of me, nothing about me deserving love. I should have left right then and filed divorce, but unfortunately I danced my ass off for about two years until I couldn’t swallow another shite sandwich or bear the discovery of another lie, and then filed for divorce.

    And I told his wife and gave her all the emails. Funny, she didn’t seem all that impressed with my ex’s “kind” words about her.

    • That’s awful. It would crush me, too. Funny how it’s those small signifiers of their indifference to you that, in a way, hurt more than the larger betrayal. For me it was that he would text her on date nights with me and say he wished he was with her instead. Then I’d come back from using the bathroom and he’d be smirking at me. At the time I didn’t know what the smirk meant and it confused me and made me squirm with discomfort. Date nights became something I dreaded, but felt I had to endure because the marriage was troubled and perhaps it would help. How naive I was. They laugh and sneer at us for trusting them. To me that’s as pure a definition of inhumanity as you can get.

  • Why cannot there be an ounce of kindness from a cheating spouse? I know I should not expect this after reading all of these comments but my STBX just sucked me in. He will not leave our house so we are in the hell of a live in separation but he is currently “dating” his married AP. My teenagers were told this by him. He is leaving in a few hours for a trip with his girlfriend while I spend my vacation getting the house ready to sell (as soon as the agreement is signed). I know that is a chumpy thing to do but I need my house to sell fast and I need as much money to buy a condo for myself and the kids. He offered to switch over my tires and while I wanted to say F-you I said sure (saves me the hassle and $). Well he then tells me he couldn’t find the right tool (after I told him where it was) and now he doesn’t have time to do it but then proceeds to spend a leisurely 2 hours getting ready for his trip (he had already packed). When you marry someone you give them the power to **** you over (financially and emotionally) – wish that had been in the fairy tales I read as a little girl.

    • The coldness and the cruelty serve a purpose. It’s how they detach. They demonize you and convince themselves you deserve mistreatment so they can dump you without feeling any shame. They can feel righteous about it if they delude themselves into believing you’re the bad guy. Assholes are good at self-delusion. They were heartless scum all along, but played nice to get cake. When they decide to discard you they will let you see the skull beneath the skin. It’s horrifying.

      • This right here. Seriously, trust that they suck and keep it in mind. It will help you get through this with as much as your sanity intact as possible.

  • If you find yourself having to explain basic tenets of courtesy to someone, it’s best that fuckwit is not in your life. They have zero insight whatsoever.

  • I’m off to my boyfriend’s house tonight, the night he said he wanted to talk about getting married. Thank you for so many responses.

    Cyn, I’m sorry to piggy-back on your post! My letter did not get posted, and I’m kind of new on here… Chump Lady suggested that I get help from everyone here and I wasn’t really sure how to go about doing that without my letter being posted. So thank you, even though no “permission” was granted by you… I hope I didn’t take away from what you needed today.

    It was so helpful to read these opinions today! Of all days… I’ve decided not to talk more about marriage now. At the very least, I’m gonna say I need a Time Out to sort it through… maybe talk more on May 4th, the day we met last year. Maybe set a meeting place and say, “Let’s talk then!” That’s six weeks from now. It’s enough time to step out of his sphere of influence and hopefully see the things you guys are seeing here. I will revisit and read all these things again.

    Thank you again for sharing chiming in with your advice. That feels warm and caring to me.


    I’m off now…

    • Dear Light Heart,

      I’m glad you got what you needed. I feel like sadly there’s always room for one more at Chump Nation. I believe that the forums are also available if you need to chat any more <3

      Best wishes,

      P.S. don't marry him. Leave before you get any more entangled. He's bad news.

  • Instead of blocking I typed in DON’T ANSWER and attached to their numbers in my phone so if they called I would not even have to figure it out. Plus I got a chuckle out of it and made me feel a little bit of power.
    It could be fun to use a descriptive name like we do here like Dickhead, Whore or whatever you call them. Juvenile but fun.

  • “If you oppose me now, you are opposing this thing I hug to myself.”

    “I say I’m against racism. Now, disagreeing with me is racist, even if you just disagree with my ideas, even if only what you say holds any water, and I plainly lie.

    “In fact, if you disagree with me now, you are likely to be more than just some kind of -ist.

    “You may also even be, a phobe-a-phobe.”

  • Eyes opened, I’m sure she wins the suck me dance, because, after all, it’s difficult to discuss the kid’s homework, and the broken air conditioner when you have neither in common with him, and besides, you have a dick in your mouth!

  • Well I went to his house last night and we didn’t have the talk. We did a few errands, ate, tried to watch a movie, and kissed. He is the best kisser in the entire world. He did say he needed to take his vacation, and maybe we could go somewhere together… get married… (he just threw that in, in almost a whisper…) I didn’t comment; I was surprised by the way it came up, then we went on to something else immediately and didn’t talk about it further.

    I think breaking up is so difficult. You can come to the idea, and settle on it in your mind, and then just not go through with it so easily. You can talk to counselors, people on blogs like this one, and be totally convinced that it’s the thing to do, and just not do it.

    Could I not be sure? Hmmmm… it feels like I’m sure. But I wonder if there is someone else who would be as good a kisser as he is… and I’m having a hard time thinking that might be true… and I so don’t want to walk away from that.

    I think my problem is pretty universal. People stay way too long in relationships that are not best for them! I know I’m stating the obvious, but it’s hard to get out. If I break up with him again, THAT’S IT. For forever. Is there another “best kisser” out there? It feels like a “have to have” for me…

    • I get you, Light Heart. But what if you don’t feel that way in 10 years time? And what if he’s somebody else’s best kisser then? The big lesson I learned was that people you love are not always good for you. From what you write I don’t think that you love him. The best kisser in the world, if they are not a faithful, reciprocal, thoughtful spouse, are going to make you unhappy.

  • Thank you Artist!

    Trying to think of the future, should I decide to actually leave, for good, I won’t lose the love I have for this man. Yes, I do love him. Maybe I’m not writing about that because I’m not fearful of losing it. I can love him if we’re broken up. I can love him from afar. I can love him if he’s with someone else. I can love him even if he is spiteful again. I’m trying to project the losses I’ll have into the future and walk around in that space, and find an acceptance of it, before I make it a reality. And one of the things that will just kill me is to lose his kisses…

    • And yes, I’m just looking at what you said here. I could lose those kisses – to someone else – even if I marry him! Oh my goodness…

      • Light – my wise SIL told me that if it’s never been broken, the human heart hasn’t experienced everything it can. I thought that was nonsense at the time! But now I see what she means. My heart was broken but I didn’t die. I loved my STBX too, but I knew I could never trust him again and that would make for a miserable existence with him. Just about everything he’s done since I told him to leave shows me that I loved a weak, childish person. Yes I still have understanding for him and sympathy for his troubles, I was with him for 23 years and he’s the only man I’ve ever been with or ever wanted. But he is NOT GOOD FOR ME. I feel for you sweetie! X

  • Okay Light Heart, I lack tact, so I’ll put this right out there: Don’t get dickmatized. His sexuality and charm are being used to groom you to put up with his abusive shit. This is their MO. Period. He does not give a shit about you beyond what you can do for him. He is a checked out drug user who needs you to do the adulting in his life. Mark my words, if you marry him you will be working like a dog at a job, raising a couple of kids, virtually alone, wondering where the money is going and where he is at night. All that charm he’s spending to lock you down now will be re-directed to finding new pussy. He will beat down your self-esteem and degrade and confuse you so frequently you will start to believe it. While you are dealing with homework and plumbers and shoveling snow he will be out with a schmoopie having dinner (on you), getting high, and getting blown. He will also be bitching about what a controlling drag you are. i repeat: HE IS GROOMING you to be the victim of abuse. He is throwing the other women and their attractiveness up to you to get you to try to compete for his worthless ass. He is seeing what you will put up with and how very little you will accept in return. So far you have confirmed to him that even if you know he has been attracted to another woman, acted on that attraction by asking her out, strung you along with lies, shown himself to be completely irresponsible with drugs, unwilling to care for your feelings, and tell you to your face that you are not ever going to be his “dream girl” so he plans to keep on shopping–you will still be willing to fawn around him for the low, low, price of a kiss on the couch in front of a made-for-TV-movie and some vague future-faking. PLUS, he got you to help with his errands. Do you really think this is a reciprocal relationship. Is this acceptable to you forever? Because someday I guarantee even the vaguely nice promises of something he might do for you in the future will be gone. The kisses will be turned off completely or only used to keep you in your place. You will be doing all the work and hearing how wrong you are doing it all. And he will have trained you to be cool with that. Then one day your going to see your mini-van in the back parking lot of his work and when you walk up to it he’ll be getting blown by some whore right next to your kids car seat. For the love of GOD, please RUN. Please believe you are worth more than this.

  • Just WOW!!! You got it SO RIGHT!! I’m glad I don’t dance to that anymore!

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