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Dear Chump Lady, The lies are crazy

Dear Chump Lady,

I am 18 months out from D-day and 12 months from divorce. Your blog had helped keep my sanity in check and I do reasonably well with no contact. However this past weekend, I had a new experience happen.

I received a call from one of ex-husband’s ex-girlfriends (she didn’t know she was an ex-girlfriend). She reached out because she wanted to apologize because she thought maybe he was married to me when they were dating, even though he told her we were not. I confirmed that we were divorced when they dated and then the crazy stories began.

Stories of me having XH arrested in front of the children (not true). Stories of his son’s friend being hospitalized after and accident where he was unrecognizable and he had to take our child to visit his friend (not true). And the king of all stories — a girlfriend who died in a terrible car accident and he had to give their child up for adoption because he was too young to care for him and he turned out to be a national rodeo star (he even gave a name). This ridiculous story is also not true.

We were married 22 years and have two children together. I am struggling with: 1.) Is he coming unhinged? These are such bizarre stories, it threw me completely off. She asked about 10 different things, all which were untrue. 2.) Could it be true that 25 years (22 married) were all to someone I never really knew?

I did relatively well (as good as one can) with the initial cheating and divorce. I was mighty, kicked him out immediately after I knew what was going on, got an equitable divorce settlement, and am feeling really great about life, but this phone call threw me. He is on his 8th girlfriend since D-day, which didn’t bother me all that much, but I am struggling with the lies he tells about me, my children, and even his own history.

It is like I never even knew this man. I started dating him when I was 16 and we are from a small town, so I know all of his history and this is such bizarre behavior, I am not sure if I should be concerned about his mental state. I do not want to spend the rest of my life getting calls from his random hookups, but I don’t like that people think bad of me so I want to set the record straight.

Any insight would be appreciated.


Dear Lady,

I’m going to choose Door Number 3. He’s a sociopath. Of course, I don’t know the guy, and there’s an outside chance that the ex-girlfriend is inventing these stories, and had random details like the names of your friends and acquaintances, but as you say he lies about you too. Did he suffer a blow to the head? A stroke? Dementia? Or has he always been a lying, cheating douche who likes to control the narrative? Given the character assassination and 8 girlfriends in 12 months, I’m going to vote disordered freak.

Having known a few up close and personal (well, as personal as you can be with a human reptile), their breathtaking ability to lie — fluently, calmly, outlandishly — is their calling card.

I’ll give you an example from my life. I’ve got a relative by marriage who made up cancer. The elaborate lie went on for months. It had metastasized. It was in her liver. They found a spot on her lungs. It was in her breast. Oddly, this person had no oncologist or stage to her cancer (“We don’t know what we don’t know”) — and she “didn’t like” her doctors. She was looking for the right one. I once questioned the veracity of these stories and was told how traumatic my distrust of her story was. Why, THAT VERY DAY she was having surgery for a tumor!  HOW COULD I BE SO INSENSITIVE? So cruel.

(My husband refers to this affliction as “Cancer of the Imaginary Glands.”)

The story just got bigger and crazier. And then it was replaced by another one. (A fake pregnancy.) Point is, highly disordered people lie as easily as they breathe.

I’m not saying every cheater is a sociopath (but I’d hazard a guess that every sociopath is a cheater). People have reasons for lying — like to hide bad conduct. But the people who lie recreationally, pointlessly, recklessly, reflexively — are DSM Nut Clusters.

Why do they do it? That’s untangling the skein — just RUN far and fast (or press charges, or vote them out of office) — but here are a few observations from the snake pit.

1.) They’re gauging empathy. Looking for a chump? See if their heart bleeds. All the examples of your ex’s lies, are him telling sad stories (in which he features heroically) to garner sympathy. He’s testing the humanity waters. Is this person chumpy? Do they care? Do they invest in the story? Do they have a hanky? Can they help a sad sausage out? Or are they skeptical, wary, ask probing questions, and have boundaries? Or are they cold and indifferent? (A fellow freak, no thank you. Bad kibbles. Next!)

2.) They love the power imbalance.  I know something you don’t know! Freaks thrill to withholding knowledge you don’t have. (I made up the rodeo, Suc-ker!) They call this sociopathic trademark “duping delight.” Makes them feel superior to you. They happen upon a situation where they can withhold knowledge — or they can create one. Lies are just little opportunities to get high on power. And the more you push the envelope (he was reincarnated as a rodeo clown!), the more bliss you get. Nothing like a high-wire act to pump the adrenaline.

3.) Their lies are useful. They don’t have other life skills, like diplomacy and hard work, so they must rely on lies to get the things they want. Your ex couldn’t live a good life to win people’s good opinion of him, so he must tear you down. Play on people’s sympathies. Create shortcuts. Disable his opponents. It works a lot of time, until it doesn’t. And when it stops working? Repeat #1 — find a new chump.

I do not want to spend the rest of my life getting calls from his random hookups, but I don’t like that people think bad of me so I want to set the record straight.

The way you live your life is setting the record straight. You don’t need to respond to all his lies. You can’t. It’s exhausting and you have no idea the breadth and depth of the lying. You can call out shit when it comes to your attention — “No, that’s not accurate” — but you can’t save everyone from fuckwits.

You saved yourself. Rock your own life, be true to your values. The people who matter GET it. And the people who don’t? They’re not worth knowing. Or they are his next victims and they’ll figure it out for themselves.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Trying to correct the lies of the likes of him is like trying to hold back a big wave at Pipeline on the North Shore of Oahu.

    The better path to peace is to accept that his MO is to tell whoppers, and that is 100% beyond your control.

    I just concern myself with the false info that comes my way.

    • PS…our therapist (since 2006) let him go as a client for lying. When I mentioned this recently, he got angry and defensive and said she let him go because “it was a conflict of interest”!!!!!

      Yes. Exactly. LYING creates a conflict of interest.

      I am still her client. He got launched for lying. That is all the validation I need.

    • I’m still stuck on how the hell did this stranger even GET this woman’s number??

  • “Oh. Another girlfriend, okay. What’s your name? Uh huh. Well, Cheater apparently led a very dull life as a husband and father so he’s taken to creating alternate storylines of his life. None of this is true and I don’t know why he continues to do it. And that’s really all I have to say. He is no longer a part of my life, except for communicating about the children’s schedules.”

    • That’s how I started dealing with people who decided to tell me what my ex husband is up to.

      “I’m not married to him anymore, why are you telling me this? No, that’s not true. I don’t care, I don’t speak to him. Bye.”

      The alternative is getting tangled in the skein.

      • I can only imagine what kind of stories this wiener has concocted about me after I was gone. I brought up her lying as being an issue in our therapy and the therapist asked if she has had any head injuries. Ha she picked up a brochure on her way out for concussion management. Um no, she was a sociopath! So glad she is gone!

        • Mine DID have a severe head injury in his early 20’s before he met me. He used this injury for all sorts of convenient things – faulty memory, emotional roller coaster responses out of proportion to the situation. And he got worse as the years went by. Perhaps the head injury did contribute to the way he acted. But then again, a bad short term memory and peaked emotions is not an excuse for lying, cheating and disrespect. Instead of continuing to try to figure out the “why” I had to come to terms with the fact that regardless of the “why” I could no longer continue to allow myself to be damaged by the relationship.

          The length and breadth of the lies he has told about our relationship, and the lies he continues to weave about his failed relationships since are quite exceptional. He has told everyone how he is such a victim, twisting the actions he did and placing them on me. I also think he really comes to believe his own lies.

          He is living a sad existence in his twisted delusional world. Except for brief communication regarding our teenage son, I am no longer a part of his alternative reality. Thank God.

          • Wow, I had a head injury too as a child. Hit by a suburban (the huge ones) and thrown into the air a few hundred feet. Hit my head, and this reminded me of my mom telling STBX when we were getting married that if I ever suffered bad headaches to be vigilant. Instead he created them for me. Ironic. And no excuse.

  • “their breathtaking ability to lie — fluently, calmly, outlandishly — is their calling card”. Yes, this, to anyone and everyone. He told big lies and little lies, some to make himself look better and others for absolutely no reason at all. Unfortunately, he does this in the most covert manner and unfortunately, people believe HIM.

    • Untangling the lies was the worst for me. Every where I looked another one would surface.
      He could drive according to his side piece and colleagues. No, he had about 6 lessons (if he ever did, he could have been out screwing). Never showed an interest in learning.
      He was setting up a business for us, his family. No, he was setting it up with another side piece (concurrent l with the second). She thought it was ‘their’ venture! Funded by me.
      He told me aged 19 he asked his mum who his dad was (grew up without a father) and gave me an elaborate tale of Jewish businessman, 2 step siblings, lived in a large house in a leafy area. This hoax continued for 20 years. He go meet his father when he was up visiting or he’d tell me they went for dinner together when he was down in London. He said he took our sin to meet him. Yet it was all hush hush as he didn’t want to upset his mum. I believed my 3 year old had met his other grandpa. Nope.
      When all the shit hit I asked his mum who his dad was and she tells me she never told him anything all those years ago. He fabricated it all.
      1st other women then tells me he was at his dad funeral. I asked cheater about this, knowing that I knew the truth and the lies and fantasy were incredible to hear, the details, the believability… I was in awe. I was also scared that I had been living with a half fabrication of a person. I didn’t know him and he didn’t even know himself who he was!
      Leaping about from one life to another came easy to him.
      I have given up. I no longer care. His family are toxic.

    • When BAM called in sick for work, he wouldn’t just say “I don’t feel well, so I will be in tomorrow.” Nooooo. He told a fantastical tale with way too much TMI for anyone’s taste … he “must have eaten something last night, he could barely leave the bathroom much less the house …” I never understood why on Earth he felt it necessary to lie about such a stupid thing when it was completely unnecessary. After so many decades of lying, the actual truth probably sounded improbable and unbelievable to him. Whack job.

      • The lying. The endless, endless, endless, often pointless lying. It used to make my head spin. And, when I would call my STBX on his lies, he would tell me that I was (1) too fixated on details, or (2) crazy. Around and around we went. I am SO glad to be off that carousel.

        • When I laid out the timeline of the discard to our mc, he said snarkily ‘Well I’m afraid I haven’t got a calendar in my head like you’. They are just allergic to inconvenient truths.

  • Hang up. Let it go. It is not of concern at all to correct the lies or save the women. Starve it of oxygen.
    The lies are for his amusement. It’s iggle to him.
    Do you remember the TV show Fharma and Greg?
    When dharma was bored she would make up outlandish fun fibs to entertain herself but only around people she wouldn’t see again and no harm would be inflicted. She would tweak her backstory.
    Same thing.
    You are not the BS whisperer. We can not control what people say to others unless it is slanderous.
    If it is just perplexing or annoying, letting go.
    Ir yell at him and tell him to keep your name and 5he kids James out of his lies, then ignore it.

  • Continual lying about anything, important details, or not, was the first red flag ???? I should have heeded. What was I thinking? I wanted him to be a guy he was not. Oh! He professed to be that guy, but his actions didn’t, and still don’t reflect reality. Yes! I was a chump extraordinaire! I still get duped with his fabrications, as we’re listing our house on Thursday. I did warn the realtor to be a skeptic. I can’t wait for meh! I’m still at ‘Whaaaat???!’

    • Yes to this 100%. The weird lies about nothing important, not even a reason to lie…should have been red flag when we were dating. Why did I marry this liar? Wtf was i thinking??!!

      If I could speak to my 20 year old self…I just have 1 word: run.

    • Lying was my first red flag that I ignored too. Spring Break 1990 in Daytona. He lied to his friend about my Mountain Dew. I was like, “What?” to myself. I could not figure out why he’d lie about soda!! And then for the next 23 years I listened to him lie to not only myself, but other people. Did not know this was the calling card of a sociopath. He’d lie about the stupidest stuff. Or he’d withhold information, which is lying too. It drove me batty towards the end. Now lying is a deal breaker for me.

    • That is my current reality. I can get sucked into believing his lies and then I have to check myself and remember who I was talking too. What a crazy road this has been!

      • My ex lied by omission. It’s almost his calling card. You have to read through the stories to figure out what he’s twisting or missing out. It’s particularly challenging. Although with grey rock, and written communication only, I’m much better at figuring out what’s missing. I also ask pointed questions of the children when they speak to him, and they’ve learned now to clarify things with him rather than just have the wool pulled over their eyes.

        • Avoidance & omission.. such huge and lengthy gaps I just accepted as his normal. Never in my wildest dreams did I think he was carrying on with his nurse coworker. 18 months from DD & it still makes me sick & sad. It’s just my nature to trust.. guess that’s why he parnered up with me. Nice wife appliance & companion allowing so much room for fun with whoring sidepieces.
          Shame on them – they stink.
          I’ll be smarter next time.

    • OMG – I love that still at WWHAATT? Exactly – I have gone through much of the grief but it still feels like what. I will never understand why he threw away the family life. He is chasing his youth and freedom yet he was the one who originally wanted to settle down and have kids. Whatever, now I don’t have to worry about his wants — he always wanted more — it was never enough!

      • Same!! My head hurts from all the BS that has dribbled out of his emails this week as we approach child support hearing. He also was the one always pushing to have kids and agreed I should stay at home. Even when it became rough for me he always reassured me it was a what he wanted. Until one day I guess they just go “well not for me” and the lies help soothe the cowardice within them I guess.

  • Wow, this was just what I’ve been thinking about this week. I had a college friend visiting, and I felt like a total crazy person telling her: I don’t know what to say–there are so many lies and secrets, and they go all the way back to the beginning, and none of them add up to a coherent story about anything. So I kicked him out, and I’ve been largely single parenting for two years, with him threatened suicide intermittently… until he found another woman to move in with recently. Yes, I realize this makes me sound crazy. No, he wouldn’t let me talk to his therapist and no, he wouldn’t enter couples counseling with me unless I promised to stay with him no matter what he said there (more freakish lies?).

    Do I think about how this reflects on him? No, of course not. …And I am wondering what she is telling our mutual friends about it at an upcoming weekend away, and I’m getting ready to be blamed for it all or called a crazy harridan who deserved such treatment. I guess I’ll find out who are my true friends soon enough…

  • In the course of discovering the truth about the extent of the Kunty Kibbler’s deception (including falsely fingering me for domestic assault), I came across a text exchange with the Carrot Singer that began with her saying “guess where I am?” and included a close-up of her arm receiving medication intravenously.

    The fact was that two months prior to this exchange, I had to take her to the hospital in the middle of the night, she was retching violently after a day spent drinking with, toking with, and fucking BDSM guy.

    The lie she told the Carrot Singer was that she’d been hit by a car, she had two broken ribs and a concussion.

    One week later, they arranged to fuck in our home (this is the day that I caught them). Never one mention of her needing to recoup from such a recent serious injury. And he never asked about it. It was just: “I’m going to be in the area, can I come over to fuck?” and “Yes, let me get the kids to school and make an excuse to get out of work, and I’ll meet you there.”

    At the risk of being dismissive by just slapping the ‘sociopath’ label on things, when dealing with creatures like this, sometimes it just fits.

    • Male chumps seem to get a truckload of the Domestic Violence lies…..especially told to family and in divorce proceedings.

      False abuse claims are not only sickening…..they are also disrespectful to true victims of domestic violence.

      • Anyone truly begin abused should be trying too hard to get out to have time to fuck around with somebody else.

      • Well, it’s unfortunately a common and dramatic problem, and (most importantly, from the point of view of the cheater) one that explains why a female cheater would up and leave her family. My XW floated the idea that she had to leave because she was afraid for her safety (which may even be true: maybe she was worried about how I’d react when my giant wall of denial finally crumbled and I admitted to myself that she was having an affair, despite the fact that I’ve never had a violent altercation with anyone, anywhere, ever in my entire life). Luckily my kids don’t believe it (because they actually know me), but I think it got her a discount on her rent when she precipitously moved out.

        Of course, it will damage the credibility of actual victims of domestic violence, but – given how they treated us – I don’t think any of us should be surprised our cheaters are willing to jeopardize others’ health and safety. Ironically, XW is a very vocal feminist (and also a mate poacher – not sure how that fits with her model of sisterhood, tbh.).

        • You can’t claim to be a feminist when you encourage a man to disrespect his wife. I don’t think you can claim to be a feminist when you lie about physical abuse either as that ultimately hurts the case of true abuse victims when the lies come out. It makes it harder for true victims to be believed and protected.

      • “Disrespectful to true victims”: Yes to this!
        We had a woman student who was a major in our (small) university department who was unable to do her work and she lied shamelessly to get out of the consequences. The last straw was when she claimed, in two successive semesters, to two different faculty members, to have just been raped, and was just too traumatized to do her work. “Believe the victims,” yes, but in her case I knew she was lying, because I’d had her in classes before and knew how she worked. I also talked with other faculty in the department about her work that semester in their classes. It infuriated me that she would lie about rape. It still does.

      • The weekend I decided I had enough and left my ex-wife for good, as my ex was breaking pictures, peeing on my clothes, peeing on me while I was sleeping, etc., I told my ex I was taking the kids because she was intoxicated and acting insane.

        She told me if I took the kids, she would smash her own face with something, call the cops, and blame me. After hearing this threat for a whole weekend, I ended up having to call her mom to watch her and the kids because I needed to get out of there before she made good on her threat.

        I even took pictures of her as she was passed out showing no marks anywhere on her face or visible parts of her body, and sent them to her, her mom, and my sister. This way multiple people knew she was not hurt prior to me leaving the home.

        • Chump-pin – What has your ex done with regards to the kids since separating?

          I have a male friend who was also chumped. What he is going through with the cheating STBX-wife is unreal. She is engaging in massive parental alienation and trying to ensure that he never gets the kids. Unfortunately, in his case, when he learned that she was having an affair, he confronted her at work and knocked her cell phone out of her hand when she called the OM. She used that “assault” to call the police which resulted in his arrest.

          She has used this “domestic” assault to its fullest advantage ever since to claim her fear of “being the next headline” to limit his access to the kids. She brings the affair partner (whom she moved into the home within a month after my friend was kicked out) to pick up the kids at the coffee shop parking lot because she is afraid for her life. And, she records every exchange with the kids from her cell phone in the car.

          He’s been fighting through the system for shared access to the kids for over a year. With every visit he has with the kids, there is some sort of follow up email from her berating something or other that he has done or said with the kids. I’ve read some really crazy emails. He’s afraid to do anything with the kids and has started taking pictures of them before he returns them to cover himself as there has been two anonymous calls to children’s services in the last seven months, both resulting in no findings at all.

          I am witnessing an unfortunate bias against men who find themselves in the role of chump when a narcissistic woman gets the upper hand. Scary. Makes me feel better about my situation as I remember the day I pounded on my husband in our driveway when I learned that he allowed his affair partner to spend a day with our children on a “daddy’s” weekend away. I had never hit a person in my life, and I just lost it on him. He could have easily called the police on me, I would have been arrested (no contact order to follow), and he could have made a move on the kids and the house to leave me in the dust.

          • I very nearly slapped ex the day I lost it over the valentine’s flowers he bought for Schmoopie. I am glad I didn’t. He probably would not have called the police on me but he would surely have added it to his arsenal of why I had to leave Chumpinrecovery because she’s such a horrible wife. Honestly, the thought of him even thinking that was probably the only thing that stayed my hand. As for the rest of it, I had been holding back my rage for months and the dam finally burst. Even the yelling and cussing I did that day is enough in his mind to justify all of the horrible behavior on his part that came before my meltdown. I am just embarrassed that I finally let him get to me to the point of losing it. Meanwhile, he got to play Mr. cool, calm and collected. Well, why not, he had no reason to lose it. Ugh!

          • I took her to rehab one last time after she came unglued being served papers. I gave her 50/50 custody as an act of good faith and a house. And I got my sanity.

            So far she knows my story is far more compelling and I’m not afraid to tell it—to tell my truth once I stopped dancing. So, it’s been bearable so far and no more threats of hurting herself.

        • This sounds like borderline behavior to me. Glad you escaped.

        • Wow! That’s incredibly evil on her part and incredibly smart on your part to have taken steps to protect yourself. I can’t help but wonder if she would have actually had the guts to follow through. Maybe with something less dramatic but still something she could point to as abuse.

        • I have been through a version of this. My EX contacted the police (or so he said–I’ve never been sure) preemptively to tell them I was violent and he was worried about my mental health. Then he broke stuff, cut himself, smeared blood on the walls, etc. and told me I couldn’t leave because he’d tell the police I was responsible.

          The situation is tricky, but documentation is your best bet. Call someone with solid, professional credibility to act as your witness as you leave (I used a clergy member once and a friend who was a professional counselor/therapist another time; my family helped too, but they were not necessarily going to be viewed as reliable witnesses.) You are the victim of domestic abuse, and you need to leave with your important possessions/paperwork. Take the kids and what they need as well. Assume you will not be coming back anytime soon and that anything you leave behind will be damaged. Involve a lawyer immediately.

          Use a text based system for all communications with her, including communication about the kids so that you have a record. If your state allows you to record conversations and phone calls without the other person’s permission, do so when she tries to employ verbal communication.

          We usually want to get out in as amiable a way as possible, but if someone is threatening to frame you or harm you, then the goal is to get out as quickly as possible with a clear record of our actions to demonstrate that they were all self-protective and in the best interest of the children. Amiability be damned. None of her friends or family will thank you for generating this documentation, but they aren’t the ones risking arrest or loss of custody. When you get push back, you simply state you are protecting yourself and the kids; you won’t be using this documentation except to protect yourself. If she doesn’t want other people to see it, then she just needs to proceed through the divorce without lying about you or putting the kids at further risk.

          It might seem odd to say this, but you’ve got a bit of luck on your side. Your EX has told you in advance that she is willing to frame you, so you have the opportunity to take the initiative and make this all but impossible. Most people who make such threats won’t follow through on them, but don’t assume your wife is among them–you’ve been warned, so protect yourself.

      • My STBXH floated the battered and abused husband line around for a minute. Even once threatened to press DV charges against me for throwing a flip phone at him. According to him I was violent and abusive our entire marriage and he had no choice but to fall dick first into the Cumpsters gaping hole, ya know for safety. *rolls eye’s* A good friend of mines husband shut that shit down real fast. He told STBXH if he had acted toward his wife the way STBXH was acting toward me then he would be lucky to be drawing breath and that getting a flip phone thrown at him would be the least of his worries.

        • My XH filed a restraining order against me. His whore (never met her) did an Injunction Against Harassment against me claiming the threat of physical violence. I was not abusive in any way to XH or to his whore, though I didn’t sugar coat my opinion about either.

          My attorney told me that “These people are trying to destroy you. Get off the grid, move, and change your number”. She was very concerned for me. X’s RO was never actually served. He knew I was no threat to him. That action was meant to shut me up and affirm his loyalty to Schmoopie (she filed first – took him 10 days after her). Funny thing is, he tried to continue to engage me through my attorney with financial withholding for several months after that. She told him to quit harassing me.

          Cheaters already cross a line when they go outside of their marriage. They’ve already proven that they are ethically corrupt. Do not underestimate their willingness to cause you harm – including taking away your freedom. Sick stuff like that feeds their drama and fortifies their twisted bond.

          • I found out during the divorce (through my hairdresser no less) that the Twat had been telling all his drinking buddies at the OK Corrall Bar that I beat him up every night when he came home from work (hey buddy, ya gotta go to work occasionally to get beat up when you come home)!!! A co-drinker and friend of my hairdresser told her that so she took me outside to meet her friend and repeated what he had been saying. I was so shocked I burst out laughing – I just found it so funny. But that at least put paid to the “poor beaten hubby” lies!

      • That one, to me, is a really big indicator that she probably has Borderline Personality Disorder. No normally ordered person usually has the balls to so casually falsely accuse someone of something that could absolutely ruin their lives. There’s some major splitting going on there, usually to justify some really horrendous behaviour on their own part.

    • And the thing is . . . she can’t EVER claim “I’d never lie about a thing like that” (whatever the topic happens to be).

      The rape that she said occurred in college? Maybe it did happen, maybe it didn’t.
      The abortion she said she had in her early 20s? Maybe it did happen, maybe it didn’t.
      The physical and emotional abuse she said she suffered at the hands of her parents when she was growing up? Maybe it did happen, maybe it didn’t.

      I accepted all of these as truth when we were married, because “I’d never lie about something like that.” Now I know she would.

      On the other hand, it makes it so much easier to remain gray rock and always be “on guard,” because I can NEVER assume she’s telling the truth.

      • Interesting stuff @UXworld

        I’ve managed to avoid having a false DV charge thrown at me by STBXW; however she has threatened it and quite obviously been attempting to goad me into doing something (but I’m very laidback & passive)

        The abuse angles? Hmm interesting too. Early on I was told that she had been abused as a child and of course believed it. She said her first sexual experience actually ended up as a rape and I accepted that as truthful. Now I’m not so sure as just as you so rightly said, we can NEVER now assume they’re telling the truth. It could well be, just as pointed out here in this CN post, that it’s just attention-seeking and a way to trap the chump by looking for sympathy early on in the love-bombing phase

      • That’s what I gained out of my ex’s constant lying as well. I believe nothing he says without independent verification. He could tell me the sky is blue and I’d still walk outside to check. Thankfully there is very little I have to rely on his word for. Mostly if he has actually given our son his meds. And I can verify that with my boy.

  • Some people are just attention junkies. I have a close relative who is not a cheating douche but will tell . . . not lies this outrageous, but every story he tells is embellished a bit, or conflated with another story so the two/three/etc. of them together make up one Much Better Story, or tells things that somebody else did as though he did, or the person he’s trying to make look good did. He has no reason to do this, but I swear it’s gotten worse since he retired and I think that part of him misses the attention he got as a reliable, veteran, go-to guy at work.

    Escalated, this turns into narcissism, which could be what’s going on with your ex-douche. Which could very well mean that, no, you never really did know him, or at least that you haven’t known him since very early in your relationship. Maybe he was sorta normal when y’all were very young but I would bet he was a liar as a teenager, too, and it just didn’t catch up with him.

  • Ohh the lies!!
    I trained with a guy( in the ‘90’s) who 10 yrs ago faked his own death!
    He Contacted my ex cheater, who also trained together and told him he had a brain tumour! Then a few months later an email arrived from his brother saying that he had died. Of course everyone was shocked and upset at such bad news.
    So the hospital we trained in ( in Ireland) decided to have a memorial service and invite all his old colleagues and family.
    One of the guys contacted his mum to relay condolences and invite his family to the service. She just said “ no, he’s not dead , he’s alive. But thank you for letting me know. I’m sorry this has happened.”
    Ya can’t make this shit up!!
    They’re capable of anything!!!

    • Forgot to add that the email from the brother was from a fake account. Obviously!????

    • The most comforting part of this blog is knowing I am not alone! The lies were se outlandish, I couldn’t do anything but laugh during the conversation.

    • The day that the airliners crashed into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, my Cheater watched on the TV and said “there will be people who walk out of there and keep walking and let everyone think they are dead” and Im REALLY sure that he was thinking that is exactly what he would have done.

      If I had just gotten a call that he was dead, I would have never believed it. The only reason I know he is dead is that I saw him for reals dead.

      I am not stupid but am gullible…I tend to believe people unless proven otherwise. I am now sure that he lied to me 30 times more than I ever guessed.

      • Ha, my father said exactly the same thing to me. He has conducted himself very very badly in his lifetime and I know he has lots of regrets (about having to deal with consequences, mainly) and I also thought, ‘Yeah, Dad, and you would have been one of them if you’d had the chance’. It shocked me, but it didn’t surprise me, and it confirmed a lot about him to me (I already knew he was a bad man).

  • I’ve written about this before but about six months ago the Twat’s psychological report in respect of his request for invalidity (bi-polar) fell out of a book on fishing. As a side note, I ended up with all his crap in my basement after he abandoned his rented home here in France and scuttered back to the States with five days’ notice – hence I ended up with all his stuff in my basement! Anyway, this report (in French) described him as a “fragile narcissist” who had been traumatized by seeing men mistreated and even killed in front of him while on active duty with the Marine Corps”!!! Say what!!! He was NEVER in a war zone. EVER! Now I don’t know if he actually believes this crap but he certainly put one over on the shrink! I actually showed it to my adult kids – FINALLY I had actual proof of his never-ending lies!

  • Duper’s Delight

    That’s a new one for the mental mightiness tool belt.

    Am going to reconsider some recent transactions through the filter of 1-3 CL lists above.

    Bet I won’t like what I see.


    • Some sociopaths and abusers say it’s not delight that makes them do it, it’s fear. But I say, fear, schmear. It’s a maladaptive strategy regardless, so while I don’t think it may be always fair to say they enjoy duping, I will go on record to say it ultimately doesn’t matter why. It matters that it’s unacceptable. It matters how we respond to it. Took me two years to finally make the words mine, but with these unfathomable concepts came great serenity. I used to think I needed to figure crazy out, in order to avoid it. But you can never control it and even the subconscious attempts keep you off-kilter. You are only whole when you are thinking about yourself only. Take the lesson from the sociopath! They’re great at doing that!

      • Sociopaths don’t have “adaptive anxiety.” They don’t do fear. That’s apparently another sign, the lack of affect. How situations (like lying) that would stress an ordinary person, don’t stress them. (FWIW, this was explained to be by a shrink who worked for 20 years in the prison system.)

        • “……the lack of affect.” Another aha moment when I learned about this. 15ish years ago we went to Ocean City for a family vacation. Daughter was around four years old. She met a new friend at the beach. One minute they were playing right by us and the next minute they were gone. The beach was packed with people. I was hysterical, calling out her name and running around looking for her. The sociopath? Cool as a cucumber. Not calling out her name at all. Just walking calmly. When we found her, I broke down in tears and was trembling. The sociopath? Nothing. So many more occasions when he didn’t act like a normal person. After D-day, I told my sister that he used to lick the tears off my face when I cried. First word out of her mouth was, “sociopath”.

          • Mine used to get pissed when the kids got hurt or lost. PISSED. Because it inconvenienced him.

        • I’ve lumped sociopaths and abusers for the sake of argument, since many cheaters fall somewhere on either spectrum (or both). It is argued in psychology that lack of control when faced with fearful situations early in life led them to learn they can overturn that when they are in control of others. I lived many years with someone who would feel threatened by my woes, but responded with anger rather than compassion. Anger in the face of vulnerability is one of the hallmarks of the sociopath.
          There are sociopaths who don’t even fear consequences because they are so detached from all fear, they just do what they want in the moment. That borders on stupidity, though, which is why this subtype is prevalent in jail (it gets them caught).

      • I have only just read about ” Dupers Delight” as when STBXH was glorying in telling me about his work whore he had a smirk on his face the entire time .

        When i was screaming crying begging him to stop seeing her he just laughed in my face said No i’m not going to stop seeing her .

        I could not get why he was smirking/ Laughing absolutely loving the fact i was so upset screaming crying and he just sat smirking .

        I have now red up on this and this is exactly what it is he was delighted to have one over on me and reveled in the fact i was in agony . Like he was thinking Yes i have broke her i am so good look i have at least 2 women .

        I will NEVER forget that smirk and the laugh

        • Karen
          I did the same thing as you did…and he did the exact same thing to me. I’ll never forget it. Then he started to flaunt her in my face when he received divorce papers from me.
          No one should ever go through that horrible experience. We have to realize it was never us..
          unfortunately monsters walk among us. ????
          Good luck to you.

            • The look, when caught in their own web of lies, is threatening in its coldness. But the words that come after that look are lethal and venomous. And meant to kill you. I feared for my life.

          • Same experience with ex, smirked, laughed, when I was a sobbing mess begging him to stay and asking why, with a smirk on his face, looked at me, chuckled and said, you’re pathetic.
            He wasn’t finished, as he was walking out the door he said find out what the state gives women like you these days, because I’m going to do whatever it takes to see you living on the street.
            Incomprehensible to me, I couldn’t imagine cheating on your spouse after 20 years of marriage, shattering their life and taking pleasure in seeing them suffer in the worst possible way.

            • Brit
              He should rot in hell.. like everyone of them that would treat their wife in such a horrible way. Hopefully they will pay for it. Karma sometimes does happen. ????????
              Good luck to you ????

        • Yes this. Mine took great delight in informing me he was hosting a dinner party while I was begging him to come and just talk to me., the week after he walked out to go to schmoopie.

        • I also have just been introduced to this term “Duper’s Delight”. Thank you for introducing it CL.

          My STBXH accused me of being a-type, controlling, emasculating…never let him have a say in anything in life. I know that this is not so. Most of my grievances in my marriage came from my frustration in how disconnected he was. I wanted him to do more, take more initiative. Please, take some control, will ya?

          Now when I recall the smug look on his face so many times. I suspected that he was taking delight in my ignorance of his actions, but I didn’t think he could be so cruel. I realize now that it was “DupDel”. He loved the power in knowing that he was up to know good and I was clueless about it.

          What a coward.

          • Dr. Crazy had this habit of taking a long pause before he spoke during every serious conversation or argument. He said it was because he needed time to choose his words carefully. More like his brain was frantically scrambling for the best lie in the moment.

            He was/is a pathological liar. He enjoys Duper’s Delight on any topic from prostitutes to where he bought gas.

            He lied about:
            – how old he was (2 years older than he claimed)
            – how many times he’d been married (5 not 2)
            – laying his kitchen floor tile (a contractor did)
            – buying his car (he leased it)
            – hunting antique shops in New Orleans for a vintage desk (his ex wife sent me the receipt to show that it was brand new and she had given it to him)
            – his mortgage (well over a million not under)
            – being under proper physicians care for his severe ED (he self prescribed a concoction of meds)
            – diagnosing me with a medical illness from tests he ordered (tests had come back negative)
            – telling his work colleagues I was in hospital for losing our life child (I was having surgery to remove carcinoma from the HPV he gave me)
            – claiming a piece of jewelry he gave me had belonged to his mother (I told him to bring photos of his mother wearing it to court)
            – that I spent marital funds on my son’s surgery without consulting him (he had written the insurance company appeal)
            – our cat was a rescue pet (he paid $600 to a breeder)

            Name any topic and I can tell you one of his lies.

            • Holy crap, Geode! That’s an impressive (not in a good way!) list.

              I too married a pathological liar but he was so good at lying I had no idea for YEARS.

              I am SO sorry about your cancer surgery. I hope you are cancer free now! I have had a couple HPV tests come back positive but so far the most recent ones have been negative. I’m sure that the Python gave it to me.

      • Ugh, my ex told me it was fear that made him lie to me about so, so many things. But the thing is, that he started lying from the get go. There was no reason for him to be fearful in the first place! So that logic just never added up for me.

        • Mine stated: he feared my reactions and my anger and essentially was forced to lie. Again. My fault.

          • Same. He said he lied because I would “over react.” Everything is my fault…….

            • Ditto to all of this.

              Here’s more:

              “I didn’t want to hurt you. How could I say those things to you?”

              “You would just take what I say and twist it around anyways.”

              “It would make me look like a bad guy when this isn’t what it’s really about.”

              ” I was afraid you will leave me, and I would be alone.”

              “I told you but you didn’t understand me. You know I’ve always had problems with communicating clearly.”

      • It probably is true sometimes to an extent. They are afraid they will be revealed as imperfect, silly, awkward or be held accountable if it is something more serious. Ultimately they fear for their image.

  • Yeah don’t try keeping up with it or correcting it or setting any records straight. When you’re dealing with lies at the “My long lost child became a famous rodeo star” level, it’s just not worth trying to keep up.

    The thing about grandiose lies is they have a way of coming out as being grandiose lies. Because the more off the wall a lie is, the harder it is to maintain. If he gave a name of a rodeo star, a quick google search would uncover that one. And clearly this woman who made the phone call was thinking something was amiss considering she questioned their validity on the phone to (to her) a complete stranger. She had to have some suspicions otherwise I don’t think that phone call would have happened.

    A friend of mine once dated a guy (briefly because she figured him out) who was one such grandiose liar. She actually dumped him because of it. He claimed to be a musician. Which wasn’t entirely a lie, he did play guitar and we saw him doing it so he knew at least that. But he also claimed he had written amazingly successful songs and sent her songs supposedly written and recorded for her.

    Except they weren’t. He had recorded himself singing over music stolen from indie artists and it wasn’t hard to figure out he’d done that considering the songs weren’t freaking his and the original songs and artists were found easily.

    Then there was a day when they were supposed to go on a date, and he said he had to cancel because his dad had cancer and needed help at home. She lived not far, so she offered to bring them dinner to help. He kept insisting no, no, don’t do that, you don’t need to. She came over with food to surprise them and there his dad was, on the front porch, just fine. She asked about how he was feeling and he was very confused.

    No cancer. Total lie for…reasons? And it wasn’t even that he was cheating, because he was there at home with his non-cancerous dad. She left the food for his dad and there was a big argument because …why lie like that for no reason?

    There were a few more ridiculous lies, I can’t remember what they were exactly, but they were stupid and pointless enough for her to walk away. He sent her long emails saying he was so sorry and he’s “dealing with some personal issues” and then he said that he was having trouble with his gender identity. A couple weeks after that email he said he “realized he’s a woman” and was going to get surgery to transition.

    …Which was also not true. Some of his friends even decided to stop talking to him because he was such a huge liar and the things he made up were completely ridiculous. Lying about being trans and getting surgery to fully transition was pretty easy to uncover as a lie considering he never did anything of the sort. A few months after the “I’m getting surgery to transition” lie, he was dating another girl. …Who also dumped him because of his lies. She connected with my friend and they had a bit of a laugh because the lies he’d been telling the new girl were just as off the wall as the ones he’d told my friend. (“I’m joining the military and moving to -name of some very far away country-“…”My exes had -name of rare dibilitating disease that required his 24/7 care-“)

    Just don’t bother trying to keep up with it. The more ridiculous his lies get, the more they’ll fall apart at the seams and you won’t actually have to set any records straight. His reputation will preceed him.

  • Cheating must coincide with lies.
    I feel they do it for sympathy, o woe is me, my ex lied about suicide attempt, money, “friends”, etc. His fuckwit lied about childhood abuse, more horrendous things, the disgusting thing is I was abused, he must of told her, and she tries to use that against me.
    You be surprised how fucked up some people are.
    Live your life well that is the best revenge.
    My ex’s ow picked him over her kids, he didn’t even end up with her. Apparently he choose me, I don’t think so, I think I was supposed to be grateful. We parted 6 years ago.
    She’s still bitter, but not enough to stop taking drugs, alcohol.
    She reached a new low, she got a friend to comment on my stillborn baby, apparently friend knew she would have been 14 now, some people are just shit.
    Guess what, friend is also drug addict and alcoholic, they want your life to be as miserable as theirs.

  • I had a serious boyfriend in high school that would lie about what he’d had for dinner, on top of everything else. Took me about half a decade to bust that castle in the sky. Turns out his friends had him all figured out by then and knew not to believe anything he said. The trauma of finding out what was really going on when I wasn’t around was a lot for a teenager like I was at the time.
    But fate had it in store that I should replicate the experience once more, this time with a wrecking of my entire adult life to go with it.

    But what I want to share is not the sob story (we have enough of those to go around), but the question…WHAT ARE THEY? Unwell people. You may choose to take compassion and love from a distance, you might find yourself battling the urge to bash their skull in, ultimately even both.
    The focus on YOU in the recovery process is how you will keep a shred of sanity.

    It may be the hardest thing you ever do, but renouncing to define them is the greater gift you’ll give yourself. Let. Go. I used to hate those words, hate, hate, hate them.
    But with time and philosophy you might come up with your own answers. I hope you are sitting comfortably when the day arrives, cause that’s really all that matters here.

    • Thank you! I was doing really well living my best life, this one just threw me. It is hard for me to understand the why but I recognize it’s untangling the skein!

  • I know X Asshat told people we mutually agreed to divorce after 28 years.

    He will never admit that he future-faked me about our retirement and move to PHX right up to the day that he moved out while I was away on a business trip and sent me an e-mail as my only notice.

    No, it is easier to lie to everyone and not have to admit that he is a cowardly cheater. When asked why he lied he always says it is none of people’s business or that we shouldn’t involve them. How convenient. It allows him to be a complete asshole and never have to own up to any of it because he is being “discreet” about our personal business.

    He lied to me every single day because he was “undecided.” He wanted to see “how the words to me sounded” before he chose to leave for the OW half our age. He couldn’t tell me because “I couldn’t handle the truth.” He couldn’t be honest because he “didn’t want to hurt me.”

    All self-serving bullshit so that he didn’t have to deal with his choices.

    I, on the other hand, tell everyone exactly what happened. I am clear headed about what he did and how he did it. He is a coward, a liar, and a cheater. A petulant, passive aggressive man child.

    • Ah yes the good old mutual divorce!! I nip that one in the bud when I can. When I run into an aquaintance who says they are glad to hear how it was an amicable, mutual, ‘we went our own ways and slowly grew apart and we are friends split’, I don’t let that lie stand. Another one: Our marriage ran its course, we had a good run. (??!!)

      • Wow. They really are all the same….I got the same line, word for word: “Our marriage ran its course, we had a good run.” That was on D-Day.

        • Omg!
          I got the same “Our marriage ran its course” !
          34 years that’s all he came up with? All he had to say was “ I’m fucking a whore”. At least that would’ve been honest.
          So very sad ???? broke my heart ????

          • It does help to know that they are all alike in their dysfunction and that it’s not about ME and what I did or failed to do to “appreciate” him sufficiently (another one I’m sure many of us heard AFTER THE FACT to justify the cheating!)

            I don’t think someone who hasn’t experienced this level of crazy-making can truly appreciate the devastation that they create.

            • As someone who made it through and is now divorced, for the newbs:
              When the narrative is controlled by them, to the world, “we’re separated. We’re seeing other people.” and as I said above, I remember just feeling gobsmacked at the history re-writing. And puffing the hopium pipe hard. Just remember, No! the marriage did not run its course and was a good run. XH, you had an affair with a young waitress. And left me for her. And told me how much more ‘nurturing’ she was and how she ‘met your needs’. She was more ‘domestic’. IT IS ALL LIES THROWN AT YOU, my dearest Chump, to confuse and deflect. (it ended in disaster for him fwiw, but yeah, still cleaning up the narrative of mutual separation! hah!)

            • Yep, people don’t get it. They say oh that’s too bad – you’ll be so much better without him. Yes, I agree I will be better without him but it has damaged me and my kids and completely changed my life and my world view (this is not just a casual oh well moment).

  • Omg the lies. I can’t even recall all of them now( brain doesn’t work right anymore)but he would say the sky?was black because I would say it’s blue. Little doubt he love bombed his current victim/AP/ sugar mamma/slut with massive lies. Like he was well off( not), so he would take her and her wealthy daddy out for $400 dinners on our line of credit—WEEKLY when he wasn’t even working. He started to work shortly after leaving and moving in with schmoopie( hey he had to, she may have figured out he was a deadbeat. I had to shut that shit down by emptying the line of credit. I’m still not sure what he told her about all of my things in my bedroom at home, at our cottage and at our house in Florida.. Sociopath all the way..

  • On the lying- my sister is disordered. She has twice claimed to have cancer. She claimed to have MS for 19 years before declaring it was a “misdiagnosis.” Getting caught in such terrible lies does not deter her at all.

    She throws out casual lies constantly mostly about things that simply don’t matter. Every job her kids have ever had was them being the boss somewhere when they were just a clerk. They are the most special people in the world and everyone talks about how terrific they are, when in fact they are a bit dumb and just working ordinary jobs.

    Herself, she claims to be the Chief Financial Officer at the corporation she works. She has a high school education only with some book keeping experience and the “corporation” is a multi-level marketing scam guy who has her set up the hotel conference spaces for his “seminars.”

    Sad, pitiful. I speak with her only a couple times a year and simply accept that she is crazy. The compulsive lying is awful but when you know every syllable is shit it makes it easier.

    • What is it with the lying about cancer? Is it because people know it’s almost 100% guaranteed to cue sympathy.

      I got stood up once and wrote the guy off immediately. I start getting random texts a few days later saying he’s in the hospital and sick. I called. No answer. I get more text messages from the same number, claiming to be from one of his friends who was at his bedside. I know it’s bullshit but I called and what do ya know, no answer! I ignore, but days later I get yet another series of texts from this guy saying he had some sort of cancer relapse.

      Your sister though, that’s intense. I wonder how other people respond to her. She’s sad and I totally get keeping distance.

    • Crikey, I had completely forgotten about my sister lying because we don’t speak. She lives in another country so I don’t see her either. But she’s had “cancer, but they’re just going to monitor it”!!! Then lyme’s disease. Then arthritis but they were going to treat it with chemotherapy!!! Now I think of it, she has always lied. Oh well, not my problem. BUT we would also have to listen to my sister-in-law single handedly running every place she ever worked. She was telling us one time how she was running the local police department (according to her) and how she was in on this and in on that – when her son turned round and said “mom, you only type parking tickets”! And that’s just about the measure of it!

    • Cheating wife went to the ER the week after Dday with a 104 degree fever. Serious illness, no doubt. First it was a bladder infection (“I’ve always gotten these”), then it was a bladder infection that moved to the kidneys (“I have a small bladder and bad kidneys”). I put 2 and 2 together and called her out: this is an STD from your AP. Well she got caught in the lie and proceeded with, “they say I might have cancer!”
      Long story short, all our cheater are liars and when you catch them they just continue lying. I’m 2 months post Dday still living with cheater. If CN would please pray for me to develop courage and for a positive outcome in the divorce, I would greatly appreciate it.

      • Prayers for you and yr little one, Mac. Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you. Looking forward to a purer better life for you without cheater deception and manipulation in it.

  • Is it weird that I’m concerned about how girlfriend got her phone number? That’s odd. Did he give it to her? Did she just take it from his phone? Both are creepy.

    Life tip – I once read somewhere that it’s a bad idea to save contacts as ‘Son’, ‘Mom’, ‘Sister’ etc because if your phone gets stolen, it’s far too easy to text ‘Mom’ and get access to some super personal information. Or in this case, it’s easy to identify your boyfriends ‘Wife’.

  • My father, whom I am No Contact, some years told his cousin that he had not been invited to my wedding. What?? That’s funny as I have pictures of my father as the wedding and he walked me down the aisle….WTF!!

    The ex couldn’t even tell a story without adding some lie or “embellishment” as he called it.

    Think of how you feel right now, now knowing what you know. I can guarantee that there are other lies and truths of which you never want to know. Keep up the no contact and don’t worry what strangers think of you. They don’t affect your life. I know the ex smeared me to his family and friends. I don’t see those people and they will never again be part of my life. What they think of me doesn’t affect how I live each and every day.

    Keep up the NC and be thankful that you don’t know the depths of his depravity.

  • Today’s post has been my life since birth. My mom is a pathological liar (she also is a cheater, was emotionally and physically abusive) and a perpetual victim in her mind. She has lied for YEARS that she is a medical doctor, but she never even graduated from college: truth is she worked in a doctor’s office once in her early 20s. This lie became so serious she even started writing scripts for antidepressants to newly sober people she met in 12th step programs. The law caught up with her and she was prosecuted- she lied about that but I found the public records. My whole life she lied about anything and everything and if confronted? Shark eyes????????????. Her father was the exact same way. My sister, who is currently in jail for car prowling at the park-n-ride to feed her meth habit (she’s 50 and the former director of financing at several huge car dealerships— her lies got her that position) also made up lies that she had cancer— for years she terrorized me with these elaborate lies until 15 years ago when I couldn’t stand it any longer and cut her out of my life.

    Writing this reveals that it’s no wonder I married two narcissistic, possibly sociopathic, cheating liars. ????????????????. I’m just grateful that I’m not like that.

  • My 1st ex learned as a young child that he could get attention with making people feel sorry for him. He never outgrew it. He would pretend to have various tests run, which indicated possible cancer, just to have people worry about him. Oh, and his exes were both bitches who, turned out, were terrible people who had duped him into marrying them. I suppose I am part of that collection now, not that I care. When I last counted he was up to ex-wife number 6.

    That skein was untangled long ago, and it is one messed up ball of yarn.

    I have one skein to untangle, and that is MINE, and why I am attracted to these kind of fuckwits. However, I am going to untangle it, and make something beautiful out of it. Pattern suggestions, anybody?

    Speaking of which, my sweet daughter got me a lovely necklace for Mother’s Day which had a note in it (from the manufacturer) about “Boundaries”. It is a little silver circle with a gemstone in the middle. I love it.

    And I started thinking: we are anonymous on CL/CN for many reasons, yet we all want to meet others who have been through this particular type of hell. Could/would the CL be willing to design a pin of some sort that we could purchase and wear which would let other members of the CN know “we are in the club”? I’d buy one.

    Just a thought.

  • My ex never lied outright. He lied by omission, exaggeration and taking things out of context, but no outright lies. That would make him a “bad” person. He also said some things that were not true but they were somewhat subjective statements (“she was emotionally unavailable”) and he probably thought they were true.

    I did, however, have a boss for about six months who was a pathological bold faced liar. I had never encountered someone like this before and it was quite perplexing to the point of being almost funny. He was quite the braggart. It is quite amazing all of the things he has apparently done. He took me to lunch when we were doing field work and left without paying the bill. He said it was his brother’s restaurant and they would square up later. I seriously wonder now if that was true or if he just skipped out on the bill. He owned the company I worked for and it was essentially bankrupt but he refused to admit it. I, of course, didn’t know this when I got hired. People kept quitting and he would tell the clients they had been fired. He had an excuse for everything. When my first paycheck bounced he claimed it was because a check from a client had bounced (“can you believe that? The client’s check bounced. How irresponsible of them”). He said he would make it right be depositing the money directly into my bank account. When I called a few days later to tell him the money had not shown up yet he ended the conversation abruptly with “My mother went and died on me, I have to go”. When I mentioned that to the two coworkers who were left by then they said “yeah, his mother died three years ago”. After I gave my two weeks notice, he asked me not to tell the clients I was leaving so as not to alarm them. I immediately called all of the clients to let them know I was leaving so if they needed anything done let’s do it now while I am still here. They appreciated the heads up and confirmed that they knew he was a pathological liar and that the others had not been fired but had quit. Everyone was pretty fed up with him by then. I never did get my last two weeks pay. He lied to the IRS too, however, claiming that I had been paid for that two weeks. When I responded to the audit it was sorted pretty quick. They accepted that I had not been paid. I guess by then they had figured him out as well.

  • I have only know one person like this in my whole life, and this post helped explain her behavior. – not my ex- he was the useful lies type of person, and the minute I found out he would talk about how wonderful it was not to lie anymore!

    Seriously, what a mind fuck to have been married to one for over 20 years.

  • I agree with CL – there’s gotta be some kind of psychosis going on – especially when the cheater lies even when they know their chump knows they’re lying – and they do it anyway! ( I would say ‘ we both know you’re lying ‘ – and she would do it anyway). I also think all the lying morphs into the creation of an alternate reality world to make it all work – and they want you to join them! Of course you can’t – because you’re already in the stark reality of the chump world (similar to combat aftermath – you’re shocked and ultra alert to everything because your survival instinct is in a hyper- state – I’m a 20+ year vet – I’ve been there too). I would say things like ‘ don’t you ever get tired of lying? ‘ It didn’t do any good – she’d just keep lying – even the lies would have babies! I keep trying to get a proper therapist but so far no help ( of course she thinks she doesn’t need it ). There’s even articles about PTSD post Discovery day in psychology mags – we’ve all been there. They’re sick – and in your case you can’t help them – because at this point you need help yourself.

  • I can add my voice to the chorus that this is all so true. They lie fluently and constantly. It’s prudent to be very wary, the “best” people you know may in fact be the worst people.

  • Cheater X was the same- the lies I heard (2nd OW told me) made my head spin. He was left on a church door step by his parents, his mother had a stroke (she’s fine), his dad was a drug dealer (never), step-dad won a lottery (doesn’t have a step-father), we had an open marriage, we never had sex, he was in medical school, he was a captain in the army, he had been a massage therapist, he had a brother he didn’t speak with (doesn’t have a brother), was a straight A student, went to an Ivy League school. All lies! When I confronted X – he said I didn’t pay enough attention to him so he needed attention from 2nd OW. That’s why he lied! They are all the same- not very original.

  • you should defintely not be concerned about his metal state. you do you.

  • When my ex left, I found out he’d already been lying for years to our friends and community. He had mistresses and girlfriends convinced that we’d been mutually separated for almost a year and our divorce was imminent.
    When I began to counter the lies and decided to sue him, he amped up his duper’s strategy. I had total strangers flipping me the bird and one other woman told me that he would go into the local bar, find a woman to sit with, lay his head on her breasts and weep about how I was destroying him. Since he is 6’5″ it took a lot of physical contorting to get his fat old head on a woman’s breasts…and in public ????. He’s a super-flexible duper.
    The man is very demonstrative. He would show up at public events, and only public events, to see the kids. He’d bring flowers for my girls and weep and mourn in front of people when the kids responded badly to his displays. I had total strangers addressing me telling me that I had to do something about how his kids treated him.
    I still hide from local society sometimes, because I know that I’ll never know every lie he’s told and I’ll never be able to convince everyone about just how much he lies. But I’m making strides and when I do go out I hold my head up high and try to remember that he’ll be fully exposed some day.
    Incidentally, when the OW (now wife) contacted me in the fall I told her that he lies with his every breath. CL is right when she says they lie as easily as they breathe. It is an involuntary function for them. I don’t even think they have conscience enough to notice.

  • I used to know a gal who lied about everything. She lied about things she didn’t need to lie about: She was on TV on the news when she was a kid; she had a pet monkey; she and a friend went to an occult store to buy supplies to put a hex on someone we knew. (I checked with the other person that was there; they went to a metaphysical book store and she bought some candles… ) People called her a ‘pathological liar’ but a conversation with my therapist informed me that basically pathological liars are basically sociopaths. Sociopaths lie so they can ‘win the game’. Pathological liars lie to protect themselves or to gain attention. Either way, I have no patience for anyone I need a decoder ring to figure out.

    I know the Original Poster is concerned about what other’s might think, but just the fact that his Ex called to check in on the stories means she’s noticed something’s off with him. And probably other’s have noticed too, they just don’t say anything because they’re being polite or they don’t care.

  • My current wife was married to a disordered ahole and was chumped and left and divorced him.
    About 2 years after her divorce, she received an IM through FB from her ex’s current girlfriend.

    The crazy girlfriend said “your ex said that you were the best he’s ever had in the bedroom. He said that you had an open relationship and that you loved to go to sex clubs with him and were really into BDSM. You left him for a guy you met at a sex club and you really hurt him. My question is, do you have any tips on things that he really likes in the bedroom” ?

    My wife just said “WTF, that’s all BS” !! She then contacted her ex and told him to never have any of his whores contact her again. His response “heh..heh, yeah she’s crazy”. She then deleted that FB account and has never spoken to her ex again.
    Every single thing he said was a lie and besides his cheating and abuse, his lying was a major issue in their marriage. These lying disordered cheaters a real piece of work !!

    • Sounds like the the crazy GF was about to run out of kibbles and looking for ways to stock up. All you can do is shake your head.

  • My ex is also in the serial liar club. Her deceit of choice is also a terminal illness. She asked me if I could take the kids on treatment days, but then never actually requested one. The tumor has been in more than one location; at various times it was in her chest, then somewhere else (for some reason I can’t remember). It “might” be cancer, but when asked later about it they were still testing. When I asked her about it months later again, I was told it was just a “scare,” but a few months after that, forgetting what she had told me, it apparently resurfaced.
    My best friend told me (though I asked him not to) that she was using this as a con on Facebook to get people to give her money to fulfill her lifelong dreams. She used the money to take a trip to France (which she told me herself someone else paid for), took the kids on a luxury cruise last summer, and ran a marathon in another city (which would seem to be hard to do if you’re dying of cancer, but, hey, what do I know?). Who knows what else the poor suckers are paying for?
    I’m sure she picked a terminal illness as it’s something that you’d have to be a heartless troll (or a cynical chump!) not to feel empathy towards, and easy to work for frivolous things like vacations. Who could deny someone a trip to Europe, if that’s her lifelong dream, and now she won’t have time to save the money?

    But… I bring all this up simply as an example. As the CL says, there’s really no point to untangling the “why” to someone’s stuff. I really feel sorry for the poor suckers paying for this stuff, but it’s not really my problem any more. If she goes to prison for it, and I have to take the kids full time, it will be, but until then it’s just another sad bullet point on her resume of bad character.

  • “The beautiful groom I married is not the disordered troll I divorced”, this is my epitome statement of his mask finally slipping off and me acknowledging the projection of myself onto a useless fuckwit. Even his mother and family exhibit the same abusive behavior, especially the ridiculous lies for absolutely no reason. ????????????

    • All of this!!!! The ex even had a sinister sister who is a narc like him but smarter. I suspected the troll underneath but it was never displayed fully towards me. When he said he wanted a divorce, the mask came completely off and standing before me was a person I did not recognize. I never saw “my husband” again.

  • I wouldn’t be surprised in the least to get one of these ex-gf calls. Here’s a part of being a chump: when XH and I were together, of course I was told all of the xgfs were crazy. Then I was called crazy for catching him in lies (yes, for a chump that sure is confusing). I myself do not need a sanity check nor do I need to meet any of his schmoopies to check if he was lying– but it’s a thing, people do it. Maybe send a link to here instead of having to parse (and relive) the lies? XH was better at lying than I was telling the truth to a large swath of people– but it is not tenable over time! I had a friend the other day bring it up: “Gee, I’m starting to believe your side of things over his!” (Sigh)

    • Oh, here’s another gem for le Chumps: XH refused MC during pick me dance-off, but went to individual IC. There’s a skein– he’d lie to the therapist! Took me awhile to wrap my head around that one! But, once you understand how cheaters operate, lying to everyone under the sun makes more sense. Then you simply exit stage right and wash that man right out of your hair..

  • You know you’re dealing with a psthological liar when they lie even when the truth would serve them better. I found out, much too late, that my jerk was one of those and that he is addicted to the high he gets from duper’s delight. I now believe he has lied all his life, but in the past he was careful not to make the lies so silly that he would be caught. They only became downright ludicrous after dday as he started to panic. He also deludes himself so easily that often he believes his lies are true. If his jaw is flapping, he’s lying. His therapist knows he’s full of shit, too. He spotted it right away.
    People like this should be exiled to an island where they can lie to each other and leave the rest of us in peace.

  • One of the saddest statements I ever heard was my 28 year old daughter assuring me that she knows she can’t trust her dad. ????

    • Here’s one even sadder: my 10 year old said the same thing about her dad.????????????????

  • Oh here’s a good one—he told the parents of the first AP that I caught him on(a friend of ours) that he was separated for 2 years. We lived about 10 miles away, same area. I was in my marriage police phase so confronted them about their slutty daughter. Um no not separated, married 29 years at the time.. I still reconciled with the Wackjob SMDH

  • The lies….

    … and of course he is not a liar. He just needed to lie not to hurt me, because it was none of my business, because he really wanted to do things and knew I would say no, because I would not understand, because I was so abusive, because he was scared of me…

    He told so many lies. And I am getting to the point where I just know not to believe anything he says. And it does not matter whether it is an embellished truth, a white lie, or a lie by omission. I sometimes wonder how much he lied and what he lied about. Then… I decide that I really do not want to know, anymore. My marriage has not been what I thought it was, I do not need to know all the details. All I know is that he sucks, he lies, and he is out for himself.

    I received a glimpse of who he is. And I do not like him.

  • My stbx told my children he was taking “cancer medication” aka acid-reflux meds. Apparently the HPV he has is in his throat was causing heartburn symptoms. Not sure what other outcome he expected when having unprotected sex with sex workers ????????‍♀️.

    1) expect cheaters to lie
    2) expect cheaters to deny
    3) expect cheaters omit their own behavior and change the context of the entire situation.
    4) expect cheaters to seek sympathy in the face of consequences- they are the victims
    5) defending yourself often backfires, as they’ve already built your defense into their lie.

    “I had no choice but to divorce him/her, they were crazy, controlling, jealous, and accused me of cheating. I loved him/her so much, but I just couldn’t take the bad behavior and, he/she wouldn’t change. I tried hard to save the marriage, but ultimately had to save myself”… reference 1 through 4 above!

    • “I had no choice” yup. STBX texted me once “don’t be mad at me for what I’m being forced to do”

  • I used to shake my damn head. Cry. Be so dazed and confused at all the lies. Why? I would ask? Did I know him at all? Who was this guy that i fell in love with? 3 years later I’m starting to not give a flying fuck. He’s messed up in the head. And not my problem anymore. Thank goodness. I still shake my damn head but now, i laugh at that Dumass.

    I hope you too will get to this point soon.

  • After D-day I found out that he had been spreading lies..
    -apparently I tortured him?????
    – didn’t cook or clean
    – stressed him out etc..
    This is coming from an asshole who didn’t know how to fry an egg!

    A month goes by and he is tired of shmoopie and wants back in… so the next story was that I had made a suicide attempt and was treated for liver and kidney failure…. he felt morally obliged to return to “look after” me and hence get rid of OW????
    Ahhh.. the lies …

    • Wow. Prince Charming coming to your rescue. Where’s that Eye Roll emoji

  • Used to try to keep up with the lies to defend myself from them. I have given up—it was harder than herding cats! And much less cute!

    Now the only lies I try to defend my family from are the ones my ex-husband makes to the Court—five years past D-Day #1. I am currently sitting in the courthouse (in another county) waiting for documents office to open to prepare for my 20th (?) hearing, which is, ironically, scheduled for next week, on the day of the fifth anniversary of D-Day #1. Yesterday, I discovered accidentally while preparing for a hearing (instigated by my ex-husband) involving spousal support that I missed by several days this year’s first hearing on custody as my ex-husband for months refrained from telling me that he had requested custody from the Court! (So it looks as though I am an abandoning, unloving parent!) My mother used to spoil my ex-husband, even last month, years after he took me to court on false criminal allegations. But once she heard that he was trying to take her grandkids away from our family, which she interprets as her, she was ready to testify against my ex-husband. I hope that new judge flattens my con of an ex-husband, ideally before my ex-husband squeezes the last few bucks out of me. I don’t want to borrow money from relatives but afraid to attend hearings pro per as losing my pre-teen kids to an abuser is unthinkable and working for the rest of my life to fund even more of my husband’s, now ex-husband’s, trips to/with prostitutes is NOT ok with me!

    • Oh my goodness I’ve got you in good vibes still. I hope it goes better. Why are they so good at mindfucks?!?!

  • STBXW text she would be late for mediation as she was struggling to park. After the session, OM picks her up in his car outside!! Why bother!

  • My ex is a habitual liar and a con artist. He lies about little things as often as big things. Believing his own lies allows him to do what he does. He doesn’t feel anxiety or shame over lying. There’s no truth vs fiction for him. Only words necessary to get what he wants.

  • What amazed me about my cheaters lies is that I think he came to believe them. It was part of his alternative reality. And it didn’t matter if the lies contradicted each other – reality was more fluid than that, he believed whichever lies were relevant at that moment. Proof of the lies didn’t change his belief in them.

    There is no wrapping your head around that.

    I have to say life is so much better without that on a daily basis! Now I’m as NC as possible and he hates it. He lashes out any way he can – truly unhinged that he’s no longer relevant in my life (except as my kids dad). And I’m not meh enough not to enjoy him desperately trying to engage me emotionally, failing, and getting so angry about it. ???? The things he still makes up, all I can say is wow…

    The biggest step for me was letting go of trying to make him see / trying to defend myself to others. Just accepting that people will believe what they believe and be confident in who I am and how I’m living my life. It is not easy – still have “conversations “ in my journal defending myself. ???? but I don’t waste my breath on him or others…

  • Lady Chumped a Lot, just stop everything that you’re doing right now and take a moment.

    And let a huge, authentic smile break across your face.

    Not your circus, not your monkeys.

    Not any more.

    You sound like a good and compassionate person, who has a lot to give to the people around you who love and appreciate you.

    Save your energy, mental real estate, and concern for the people you can actually help. Both you and they are worth it.

    • I needed this! Thank you! It is always great to have the reminders.

  • I told myself for years that my then-wife’s lack of emotional affect (never cried at movies, songs, family milestones) was evidence she was tremendously well-adjusted, in contrast with (what she told me was) my embarrassingly sentimental and nostalgic tendencies. Only later, when I discovered all her cheating and lying over so many years, and my shrink explained that a person has to have serious mental problems to live a double life, did I begin to see that I was married to an emotional shark, a sociopath.

    • Oh wow. He always made fun of me — even to our kids which really stung — for being so “emotional” and “sentimental” when I cried at movies, etc. It never occurred to me that this was a strategy to make his own lack of affect seem “normal.” Chilling.

      • Oh yes, the running you down to the kids for having emotions. I dealt with that, and it’s awful. I worried for a long time that my kids might turn out like my cheating ex-wife in that regard. It took at least 5 years post-divorce for my kids to mature enough to see that emotions are normal, and having emotional connections with others makes life sweeter and our burdens easier to bare. My adult kids and I now often text about our shared sentimental anchors, like baseball, goofy movies, and the small town where I raised them. It’s a relief and a joy as well as vindication.

    • Towards the end of the marriage, the ex started joking about getting his ‘one’ feeling hurt. He wasn’t joking – that one feeling centered around him and what he wanted.

      This is the same man that emotionally pushed away his son who had his first severe manic episode – the son who has always adored his father. The son’s emotional needs and change of personality was too much for the ex. He ignored his son, who had lived with us for the past 9 years, until my stepson left to go with live his mother. I don’t if my stepson fully grasps what happened as he was still having delusions and mania. I will never forgive the ex for the treatment of his son. Me and J loved and adores the ex and still wanted to be a part of life, and we were the ones hurt the most.

  • X gets off on “secrets” and manipulation. When I finally called him out on the cheating, posturing, lying, posing, stealing, identity fraud, etc…, he made it his life’s purpose to try to destroy me, emotionally and financially. Had it not been my singular goal to protect our sons from his psychological abuse, he would have surely succeeded.

    He still enjoys hurling poor sausage guilt and veiled threats toward me and the kids from time to time for sport. It’s taken several years, but we’ve learned that ignoring him is our best defense. It’s also coincidentally the worst possible pain we could inflict. His biggest fear and insecurity is being irrelevant. So it’s an unintentional- yet-weirdly satisfying win-win for me and the kids these days.

    • When I think of his most successful “secret,” having the skank he worked with and was fucking lurk at his father’s funeral tops the list. When I noticed some strange woman sitting alone for two hours, I made my way to her to say hello and thank her for coming. My husband – who I found odd to be actively ignoring me and walking away every time I attempted to stand next to him in line – now was on us like white on rice. I remembered how the strange woman kept looking at my husband and stuttering.

      They really must have gotten off on that dupe later that night, when he didn’t come home with me and the kids because, “I need to be alone with my father.” Yeah. Sure.

  • My ex always used to say that there was nothing worse than a liar. Ironic, he sure could lie straight to my face when he cheated? As per skankella’s daughter. He told skankella that I never cleaned the house. I could not keep jobs and I had mental health issues. Hell, he even told her all about my early menopause and the problems that it caused. I can image what other lies he told the pos. I think that my ex had to make me look like a horrible person to justify his Fucking around.

    • Of course he did. I mean it’s sure hard to say look she’s a pretty decent person actually and I’m just weak and screwing around behind her back. I can just imagine the tales of woe mine told OW it would have been a real pity piece I think. I can only get glimpses of it as somewhere during their affair I thought he was being weird and I said to him that I didn’t think he loved me any more. He told me that over the years he’d be cold-shouldered, alienated, mocked and (can’t remember now) something like belittled. Er, well done for never mentioning you felt like that. Oh but he stayed because love and all of the good that outweighs the bad. See, couldn’t get to the end of that statement without a lie. They have to justify it of course. It’s so flaming predictable frankly it’s all quite sad. Being able to do this to someone and not get out of a relationship without creating this ridiculous mess is mental health issues if you ask me. Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive.

      If they believe it then more fool them right.

      • Dudders, the ex told me that his EA partner said she thought I was some kind of ogre. Then after all the drama the last thing the EA partner said to me (she had been a friend) was “If I’d really known you, this would never have happened.”
        Cheers for that, eh! He must have told her all kinds of sad sausage stuff but it was my restraint, good conduct and sanity through the discard that showed her what I really am. I’d say, what a shame her naive assumptions led to such heartbreak, but I’m almost glad it did as I’m no longer hitched to a deceptive, self-absorbed man.

  • Insatiable hunger for empathy and willing to lie to get it. Check.
    Likes to dupe/scam people- gets off on it. Check.
    Lie as easily as breathing. Check.

    Cheater XW perfectly described.

    2013 when I caught her communicating through Fakebook to an exboyfriend who she had told me at the beginning of our relationship was a horrible abusive person- I asked why she would want to even contact someone like that….. she denied ever saying those things about him. I knew then that I was dealing with a really messed up person. It would take another couple of years to get the adultery boulder dropped on me, but looking back I was naive and didn’t know people like this existed.

    To those of you that are new, one of the things that helped me the most to get my brain right again was to acknowledge and accept that a cheater has something wrong in the brain that is not fixable. Accept reality and walk away to begin the journey to a new life.

  • One day I found this quote:

    “A person who lies to themselves and believes their own lies becomes unable to distinguish the truth within themselves or anyone else, and so loses all respect for themselves and others. And having no respect, they cannot love, and in order to occupy and distract themselves without love, they yield to their impulses, indulge in the lowest form of pleasure, and behave in the end like an animal in satisfying their vices. And it all comes from lying – to others and themselves.”
    – Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

  • When chumpy me finally realized its time to cut him lose- I still had to live in the same house with him- but left the bedroom and filed for divorce as I finally realized he was a liar and a cheater, and we were together 12 years and a couple of kids, it is shocking but – his phone was connected to our iPad (oh joy! The entertainment! And it was good for me to see his true self reveal himself like this- all lies and such stupid and unnecessary lies!) anyways he was writing his tinder dates fairytales like: “I get up every morning and the first thing I do is make coffee.” That one had me roaring with laughter – he never ever made coffee during our entire time together, doubt he even knew where the coffee was ???????? but that’s what he was telling his dates. They also didn’t know he was still married with kids and living with us and oh joy- also hooking up with men on the side. That kinda scared me for these innocent girls who would meet him- they had no idea who they were dating! But then again, neither did I. And it took me a long time to find out what he was up to. But he would lie with a straight face and in all seriousness about every little dumb thing, it was astonishing! They just get so used to being fake why be truthful? It means nothing to them. They don’t have a heart. Narcissists.

  • I remember being disturbed at certain points in my marriage when I would overhear Cheater talking to customers. Whatever he said was a long stream of lies. He lied about things that didn’t even matter. He told a customer that he was sick when the order was delayed. I asked him, “Why don’t you just say that the order is delayed? It’s not even your fault that it is delayed. That’s on the store.” He looked puzzled, and then he said, “I dunno. I always lie.”

    I remember finding that very disturbing. I told him he ought to think about why he feels more comfortable lying than telling the truth, especially on things that weren’t even important.

    But like a good chump, I still thought he was just lying to people he didn’t know… never to me! Turns out he was equal opportunity about the lying.

  • The Lies. Some friends find it hard to believe when I tell them, “It’s not what he did, but what he did AFTER that really meant something to me.” I tried for several months to make sense of it, because he was so “good,” there had to be a reason for this, right? All these other people had to be lying and jealous of me! Of course, he is just not capable is what I told myself. Then I realized he had been lying to me for years–and I never second guessed any of it. Now I’ve been employed by 2 world famous narcs, I’m not a dummy, right?. Not way my husband said that shit. No fucking clue. I think my ego has kept me in a holding pattern for at least six months, because now I see him so clearly. The only advice I can share (that has worked for me) is this: Once you realize that he is comfortable with deceit, you understand that he lacks propensity for the truth-Any of it. So if my STBXH steps one tippy toe outside of the required communication for the children, I promptly tell him to shut the fuck up. When “friends” tried to interject, I told them to shut the fuck up too. I don’t care what he tells people, or their version of me, all I care about it time lost. You can’t allow a chronic liar, cheater, or even his friends bring that shit to you. It’s a waste of your time, and you have given enough.

  • “Could it be true that 25 years (22 married) were all to someone I never really knew?”

    LadyC, I know it’s mind blowing!

    First affair (that I know of) was revealed to me by the OW herself – she hadn’t known she was an OW because he lied to her about his marital status. She found out because she caught him in one lie (about something that made no sense to lie about), then she got suspicious and did some digging online, where she found out he lied to her about being divorced. Instead of telling him off, she came to tell ME when he was out of town. She brought me a box of chocolates, to soften the blow. (You can’t make this shit up.)

    When I picked him up at the airport after his trip, I said “Who ARE you?”

  • Oh boy. Those lies! That duping delight! The more I tried to crack the nut open the more he dug his heels in and wove more double lives. Just to spite me, devaluing me just so that he could, relatively speaking, elevate himself! Imagine spending every waking hour opening and closing and locking and unlocking literally hundreds of tiny compartments of deceits, double crosses, and discrepancies! It must be exhausting, and oh so pointless, all just to give the ‘path a personality, something to self love for themselves – their pathetic play at power won by way of manipulation ie lies!

    My favourite revelation from one of his exes (now an ally and friend, oh how we laugh at the extent of the lies ????) was when I discovered my ex husband apparently wasn’t a cat guy after all! I mean who would lie for 15 years about being a cat guy? I’m not even a cat lady, dogs all the way, yet his like for cats has apparently gone away now dog lady here has too. Bizarre. Cat guy? Really???

    Really ????‍♀️????‍♀️

    It sure doesn’t make sense. I still get triggered occasionally when I encounter someone who believes his smears about me – then I quickly move on and wish that block button actually worked in real life. They can have him. Over there in the blocked corner.

  • My story isn’t half as dramatic as some. After 23 faithful (as far as I know) years he left for an EA partner who didn’t want him in real life. In the discard process he lied to my face twice (yes/no lie) about meeting her, broke promises not to contact or see her, told me it was all over then a few months later was trying to be her boyfriend, and I believe he was looking at my emails to see what I knew and what I was going to do. He played the sad sausage card (I didn’t understand how I felt, etc) which I also believe was a lie. Nobody can be that lacking is self-reflection.

    So now anything, anything he says could be a lie. Anything he said during the discard or even the 23 years prior could be a lie. If I challenge him about how much he earns (he’s agreed to pay 20% of his income) I imagine he’d say ‘I wouldn’t lie to you about money!’ Money is nothing next to love. His character has been revealed as a liar. So no, I can never go back.

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