An alert chump sent me this tidbit in his Apple News feed:
“Psychologists Agree: It May Be Time to Rethink Your Monogamous Relationship
Research makes it clear that our best intentions are often worthless in the face of a compelling, and possibly unexpected, attraction to another person. The question arises then: Is it time to ditch, or rethink, monogamy as a standard? Psychologists say yes.”
I have so many questions.
Really, all psychologists agree? Did they take a vote? Were they at a giant monogamy convention (Monogapalooza!) somewhere discussing our relationships? And they achieved consensus?
All Psychologists (Intoning with One Voice): It May Be Time To Rethink Your Monogamous Relationship with Mr. CL.
Well… he has developed a disturbing fondness for sea shanties lately. Just the other day I ran screaming from “Don’t Forget Your Old Shipmate.”
Safe and sound at home again, let the waters roar, Jack.
Safe and sound at home again, let the waters roar, Jack.
Long we’ve tossed on the rolling main, now we’re safe ashore, Jack.
Don’t forget yer old shipmate, faldee raldee raldee raldee rye-eye-doe!
I confess, I had a moment of doubt. Did I sign up for a lifetime of deafening sea shanties? Apparently there is only one volume setting for sea shanties — gusto. (Sailors are not known for their subtle phrasing.) However, I’m alarmed to learn that research makes it clear that my best intentions to be faithful to Mr. CL, are worthless.
I thought our love could rise above flamboyant quirk. That we would be the exception. The love story that defies pirate yodeling. But no.
I am powerless to the unexpected attraction of a stranger who might faldee raider my rye-eye-doe. Mr. CL could jilt me for a beer hall wench who shivers his timbers. RESEARCH SAYS.
All this time I thought, I could just flee sea shanties. Or get noise canceling headphones. Or take a deep breath and remember that Mr. CL tolerates a lot of my flamboyant quirk. (Pinecone elves, English boys choirs, rhubarb worship.)
But the Monolithic Psychologist Collective has agreed that it would be best if we just fucked around.
Clearly the problem has been our unreasonable standard of monogamous commitment.
I’m also curious — if it’s fait accompli that I’m going to fuck around (YOUR BEST INTENTIONS ARE WORTHLESS!) — why do I need an article telling me this? Aren’t I a moth drawn to a flame? A lemming stampeding toward a cliff? If I have no agency, why do I need news? Isn’t my vagina doing all the thinking for me? HELLO HANDSOME STRANGER! LET’S HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT MONOGAMOUS EXPECTATIONS! YOU LOOK NICE. MY HUSBAND LIKES SEA SHANTIES. WILL YOU BE MY SHELTER?
It’s not as if I’m going to make a decision or something.
Oh boy with this one! So,why procreate then? Women would be left holding the bag, er not holding it if you know what I mean! Who wants to raise kids alone?! So why don’t we all just hold a big fucktabulous, merrily going from partner to partner (I think psychologists would agree!) and let the human race die out. The family unit will now be extinct. Oh boy, I can’t wait! (What was the collective IQ of all these psychologists?)
Sadly, a lot of people are already on that path. A lot of schmoopies anyway!
Psychologists are idiots. It’s a bachelor or Masters of arts degree -not a hard science. They don’t even know what they’re talking about. It’s all a pseudo science. Now psychiatry, that’s a medical doctor. A whole other story. Psychologist or simple human is relying on their own understanding. They are godless and they do not subscribe to a higher way of thinking, dreaming, being, feeling and living. Exist in the mundane plane of animal existence And they exploit the hopelessness that creates in their so-called “patients” instead of directing these lost souls to God who they so desperately need.
Wow that’s aggressive. This “article” should’ve said SOME psychologists agree, because many, many don’t. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, attacking an entire field and profession seems unfair. I am a MD and it’s nice to see psychiatrists get a little respect, but I am seeing a wonderful psychologist who would never agree with such foolishness as this article.
… and most psychologists in clinical practice have a PhD, not just a bachelors or masters degree.
The fact that psychiatrists are not required to examine themselves and get their projections and countertransference in hand makes them sometimes more alarming than psychologists.
Not a few of both representatives of the caring field are batshit crazy.
There were two in my faculty who had quite clear personality disorders – there they were, on the master’s programme.
“Hard science” degree or no, leading lost souls to religious comfort is the role of the clergy, not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. And all have their own value and places.
Long we’ve tossed on the rolling main! Now we’re safe ashore Jack …..
😀
I fail to see what is wrong with rethinking monogamy , not entering a monogamous relationship, or changing a monogamous relationship into a non-monogamous one.
The problem is unilaterally changing it without for using it with your spouse, changing it and then informing your spouse or partner, or manipulating your spouse or partner into changing into a monogamous relationship.
I think monogamy is not for everyone, but there is not a thing out there that works for everyone. I also think it is irresponsible to say that everyone should rethink monogamy, because MOST people are great with monogamy.
I would also say that I know a few people in great non monogamous marriages, but in those cases both people were non-monogamous entering the relationship. It is REALLY hard to change the status quo. Changing it leads one person feeling, usually, manipulated, lied to, resentful.
Also. Non-monogamy is not necessarily cheating but people who are non-monogamous are sometimes cheaters. Cheating is about more than sex with another person. At minimum it is being unethical – it always is – but often there is the added thrill of lying and getting one over. And for those people opening up a relationship just means they will find a new way of deceiving their spouse.
But some people are good at honesty and suck at monogamy and just need to find another person like that, or someone who is open to it
I guess that explains why there are so many people out there nowadays that are compelled to lie and cheat… about things like plane safety… drug safety Enslave other human beings. Just to give some examples from the latest news.
As Tracy always says, it always boils down to entitlement
PS: after this enlightement by scientific research, I’m curious if the public health agencies will see an increase in STDs among people who read the news
All right, all you people who have cast off monogamy go stand over there so I know who you are. I’ll just stay here with my tribe so DONT cross this line!
WORD!!
YES! We need to know.
THIS!!
I agree! Non-monogamous folk need to wear a pin proclaiming their status!
Haha, Loved and Lost. They can’t stay in their side because…… the ground shifts.
After Dday the Limited said he liked single. He wrote her a poem about married but on our own.
Fucker led a double life. If married meant single then what does single mean? Haha, I let Nanthony dab in that conundrum.
More from this vomit-inducing article:
“If a couple can plan ahead of time for the possibility than one or both partners might have an intimate moment with another person at some point, this can reinforce the flexibility, tolerance and forgiveness required to adjust if that happens.
“This is key: If we can admit to ourselves that a fleeting attraction, or more meaningful connection, with another partner might not irreparably harm our primary relationship — and indeed might supplement it — then our relationships might survive longer and better.”
Had we just discussed that he might fuck his coworker in the backseat of his car, maybe woven it into our wedding vows 18 years earlier, I’d have been like, “Hey, no big deal, and can you pick up some milk on your way home?”
Supplement it?!
My cheater wrote (in letter to 20 yo son):
“I sought what I could not find with your mother: validation, a sense of adventure, a sense of feeling attractive. It allowed me to ask less of my marriage”.
Only the Noblest of Intentions motivated his more than ten years of hookers and random dudes in gay clubs. He put a lot of time and effort into rethinking, and ditching, monogamy as a standard. He SUPPLEMENTED it. (But forgot to give me heads-up about that).
I presume mine would justify it the same if he ever once admitted to it. Messed up that he sent that to your son…he is so twisted that he literally just told his son it is perfectly okay to betray, lie, cheat and steal for sake of adventure or to feel important.
I guess part of how their twisted rationalizations work is in the fact that they truly do not consider others. They are the only one who exists, so why would they need an excuse or apology for how that sense of adventure trumped everything it cost the other people involved? All those other people were granted the gift of him the whole time and his playing a role in their lives. How ungrateful that they don’t respect his time off set, when he is away from the role. All actors deserve a private life!
Everything you said, FacePalm!
Plus, I very much doubt that the cheater would grant the same understanding to his partner.
Cheaters HATE infidelity, when it happens to them. Mine came back home (yeah, I took him back THAT TIME) when he discovered that the MOW was cheating on him. Sick thing was, back then I even comforted HIM because he had all the sadz that she betrayed him. No fucks were given by him for the pain that his betrayal caused me. And he completely missed the irony.
They never get the irony. A week or so after DDay when I was all about reconciling, he was telling me how horrible Schmoopie’s husband was for having cheated on her and how kind she was to have taken him back.
“How ungrateful that they don’t respect his time off set, when he is away from the role. All actors deserve a private life!”
Omg. You must know Fuckup. People just didn’t understand the pressure he was under: LDR with chumpy me, no kids, no mortgage. It’s clear that his whole life was “always having to think of others,” and it was just way past time to do something for himself.
Being with Skankbag was “like coming up for air,” he told me at one point. And, I mean, how selfish would I have to be to deny the poor long-suffering guy some air?
And, If we could just get the Banker to be more flexible about leaving the safe open and unattended; and, they would just be a little more forgiving when I get caught helping myself to their booty.
Argh, there’s the rub!
So right A new woman. My wife of 23 years did the same. After discovering the affair and how long it had been going on the best answer I got was “I liked the attention”. WTF?!?! If only I had known all these years in corporate America, in which I have had opportunities with women I worked for, with and for me. Business trips where clearly I could have pursued and had sex. All I had to admit was I liked the attention and monogamy no longer mattered. I could have just jumped in the sack and felt no remorse, because…….. I liked the attention.
Funny thing is the NC’s don’t even read these articles. They’ve already made the decision that lying, stealing, cheating, gaslighting and then placing your brain and heart in the blender on high is okay because of course “They like the attention”.
yes – the brain and heart in the blender is a very apt description – this is what floors me – let me know that is a free for all so I can base all my decisions on that knowledge (then I will ensure half of all money spent is on me and not just constantly for his desires)
So true! Ex was screwing and eventually married a coworker. I worked in an office for 40 years and also had my fair share of opportunities to cheat. Looking back though, people with morals and a good character just don’t do that. So we should be proud of ourselves!
So true. More than 15 years ago when I was 35, I went on an outing to a sporting event with a group of people from work. I had just re-entered the workforce after taking a decade to be a SAHM so I had to start over at the entry level. I was basically the oldest person amongst my peers at work. Most of them were fresh out of college.
Anyway for the majority of that night, one of the young (22) men kept telling me we should go somewhere and “make out and see where that would lead.” I have to say he was pretty hot. I ignored him because first and foremost I was married and also because we worked together. I often turned down invitations when they all went out because I had very little in common with any of them but I thought a sporting event would be okay. It was a fun night but I thought it best to not go out with them again unless my ex could join me. Silly me.
Exactly. We all have opportunities and TBH, most of us find at some point other people attractive, even very much attractive but many of us choose not to act on attraction because in the scheme of the things it’s not worth it.
“If we can admit to ourselves blah blah vomit…”
Yeah, this was definitely spewed out by people with an agenda. No science here. See my comment below.
Your comment about your cheater shows just how ridiculous this manure is when applied to the real world. This is what the RIC wants us to believe
Well, at lease if he had mentioned it as we were deciding on our vows I would have had a chance to decide if I was ok with it.
Again, the initial issue is that we had a contract, in the form of the wedding vows, that did NOT state we would have an open marriage. In fact, it said we would “forsake all others”. I did not agree to the change in terms.
+1 exactly
First, let me commend Mr. CL for his fine taste in music. I strongly recommend “Rogue’s Gallery: Pirate Ballads, Sea Songs, and Chanteys.” Some wonderful stuff there.
Secondly, why on earth do we give psychologists any credence at all? We take it for granted that they know something, but if you look at the google – search: psychology, reproducibility crisis – you’ll find that it’s all a lie. They don’t know any more than witch doctors. Except about how to shake down desperate people for cash. (Some counselors are caring and competent and can actually help people, but I promise you they’re not using their psychology textbooks, and their roles in an earlier era would have been filled by a priest, a village elder, or whatever).
The best of tradition and folk wisdom, a la Chumplady, is vastly more valuable.
Indeed Hermie!
Well if you plan ahead for that possibility is that not an open marriage. Plus does this mean that there will be no gaslighting, stonewalling, deceit, emotional abuse, devaluing, and just plain old shitty behaviour. For me, the intimate moment was the least of it. I think there would be a lot less marriage and children if this were to become the norm. Relationships are hard work but they work when people value them and cultivate them. We are becoming a culture of entitlement where everyone’s individual needs outweigh the collective. I think our society is in trouble.
I think you’re right Deee. Narcs bail on family = kids with instability and abandonment and trust issues = grow up to be narcs.
Rinse and repeat.
Me first is not an ideal parenting principle.
Agree!! “We are becoming a culture of entitlement where everyone’s individual needs outweigh the collective “.
People would much rather do what feels right for them and could care less what those decisions do to everyone else (including kids).
The weirdest part to me is that I’m not being honest, responsible, faithful etc because I am some altruistic saint who will give up her own happiness for the wellbeing of her family and society as a whole.
I do these things BECAUSE I LIKE THEM! I like both the short term rewards (being able to look myself in the eye in the mirror when I brush my teeth in the morning, not having to worry about what I’ve told to whom, enjoying the worry free life of someone who pays her bills on time, having actual fun with my kids EVERY SINGLE DAY, pleasant interactions with most of hte people around me…), and the medium-to-long-term ones; strong long-term friendships, where we know each others’ histories as well as our dreams, knowing that there are people who truly do have my back, as I have theirs, knowing that my life will stay relatively drama free (at least of the kind created by unpredictable, undependable people) because I treat people with respect, and don’t keep around (any more!) people who don’t reciprocate that.
I LIKE IT!
What I didn’t understand, for the longest time, was that my Ex just really, really isn’t built like I am. Because these are things I value, I really couldn’t imagine that any relatively functioning adult might not think the same way, feel the same way.
When we say ‘we have different values’, what that means is ‘Certain things have value to me, and therefore I am HAPPY to work hard to get them, keep them, and preserve them, and happy when I have them. He values VERY DIFFERENT THINGS, not at all the things I find valuable. And he will do whatever he needs to do, including deceive others, in order to get them (because honesty and loyalty aren’t on his list of things that are valuable – at least for him).
Sheesh, I wish I’d known WAY EARLIER how this works.
This is me too! I’m looking forward to drama free living!
THIS! Thank you. As a woman, why would I have children in such a society? My childhood was awful. I wanted better for my family. I was lucky, he claims. He stayed until the kids were almost raised. Except, if I knew, I would have had children with someone else. As a parent, I don’t understand putting selfish wants, before the needs of my family. Nothing good comes from that.
Yes, it was interesting to me because I thought my STBX escaped his FOO (silly me they were just hidden better). The first thing his sister said to me when she found out was “I am worried about his relationship with the kids”. Then my STBX proceeded to try to justify his cheating to my teen boys by saying he had wanted his cookie cutter marriage for the last decade (what he didn’t realize is they are part of that so in essence he was saying he didn’t really want the life he had with them – way to go Dad!). I will just go about living my peaceful “boring” life — no viagra, secret life, or hidden pot stash taped to a bottle of flavored lube.
oops typo – hadn’t wanted his marriage
This has been one of the hardest parts to overcome… He knew that my dream was a loving, faithful marriage and family. He knew I had been badly hurt and cheated on before. I made it clear I didn’t want marriage just as a title or a relationship for the sake of it. He pretended the same, but was cheating on me with hookers from the very beginning. He intentionally stole my chance at having children with a faithful man and stole my children’s chance of having an honest, loving and capable father.
Same here
The act of deliberate deception is unforgivable.
FacePalm I had a very similar experience. My asshat ex deliberately prevented us from having kids. He plays the victim of “how hard it is to accept he will never be a father” “what’s his purpose in life” “I would have made a great father” blah blah. When we were actively trying and it didn’t happen we both got tested and turns out his sperm was shit so what did he decide to do, smoke weed, get validation from other much older women and the list goes on. Now divorced he still tries to bring up not being a dad and hard it was on him…again victim mode. Then I throw it back in his face that he really never wanted kids because the last year he “screwed me” with condoms on. His response back to me “Why would I get you pregnant when I never really loved you?” So you literally used me as your pissing post for 13 years (11 married) and stole the best years of my fertile life? What a selfish monster!!!! But you know he never loved me, everything was my fault and I caused him to cheat ????. There really are horrible people in this world. He left me, divorced me and bought a home with his ho-worker who is 7 years older than him, 2x married, engaged a third time and has 3 kids from 2 baby daddies. His dreams came true, he is a stand in daddy to 3 kids that aren’t his and no matter what will never be his. Best of luck to that Douchebag and his train wreck ho-worker.
You said it. Open relationships (which sound really stressful and chaos-inducing) are supposedly founded on trust-cheating and lying in a traditional marriage is not an open marriage. People who don’t want monogamy don’t have to get married –especially not to people who do want monogamy. We already have common-law marriage so if you want to hook-up with someone for 7+ years while fucking around, buy a house together and have kids, you still get all that lovely legal entanglement that a married couple does without the commitment. Would it really be such a big deal, with family and friends coming from miles around to celebrate and shower a couple with gifts if they were merely promising to “stay together until something better comes along”? I don’t disagree that a couple can get past an affair given the right situation (not mine), but not that it is a defensible inevitability.
So well said Dee! The lies, gaslighting, denying the other person the facts with which to make a solid decision to me is so unforgivable along with the adultery. The people who can look you in the eye and swear they have never done any of the above are truly stone cold evil. As Walt Whiman said, ” Re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul.”
Agreed
Right you are. We need more of both social and economic collectivism. We need to think in terms of “us” instead of “me”. What’s best for the well-being of all of us is what matters, not what makes an individual feel good in the moment.
I think this is pretty clearly written as click bait for people looking to retroactively justify what they know is bad behavior. Now I’m waiting for the article that says “Doctors agree: it’s okay to get drunk when your pregnant!”
*you’re (damn autocorrect)
Spot on.
Or how about this: “all lawyers agree, that companies need to reformulate their policies to permit the sexual harassment of subordinates, the firing of all the over-40 workers and hiring of younger workers, and embezzlement because people WANT the feelings of power and thrill they get from doing these things.”
OMFG. What a load of complete crap.
No offense to those few wonderful psychologists, but the industry took a huge hit in legitimacy with this tripe.
Let’s not forget the lack of journalistic standards that are allowing this. Years ago, a reputable news outlet wouldn’t publish or produce untested and highly opinionated “ideas.”
But hey, times have changed. Cheater Tiger Woods will get a Presidential Medal of Freedom. Why? I do my job really well. I volunteer at a nursing home and a homeless shelter. I raised 3 kids as a solo mother and none of them are pregnant, addicts or in jail despite an ex who took me back to court 6 times in 10 years and LOST every single time. I upheld every contract and agreement I signed. I never cheated. Where’s my medal? Where are yours?
Yea–I’ve been having a lot of trouble with the Tiger Woods Medal of Freedom crap too. There are hundreds of athletes who’ve represented the US far better than he has (and millions of other people without athletic achievements). Cheating so spectacularly on his spouse ought to have disqualified him. Exactly what kind of “freedom” is the medal for? Freedom to fuck around? And now I’ll stop as all my other views on this topic stray toward the political.
You started very well but perhaps should be “all these policies should be revoked because it’s impossible not to harass your colleagues, not to hurl racist abuse at them and it’s really difficult not to embezzle money.”
This “rethinking “ narrative is just another version of blaming the chump.
Monogamy is too difficult, YOUR expectations (I’m looking at you, Chump) are too high. You’re pain is exaggerated and a bit too dramatic, afterall no one can REALLY be expected to keep a vow.
Spot on, F&L. That’s exactly what this cretin is trying to do, make it our fault for assuming our cheaters meant their vows. This is the kind of person whose attitude about their own dishonesty is (and my cheater literally said this); “Why would you believe that? Just because I said it doesn’t make it true.”
Imagine what it would be like to go through life assuming the person closest to you may not mean what he or she says. That’s a life not worth living, like the zombie-like existence people who wreckoncile with cheaters have to live. No thanks.
Cheater: I promise I will be monogamous and honest with you (until I won’t).
Chump: *crossing fingers behind back* Sure, sounds ok. I’ll marry you! Let’s run it up the pole!
Psychologists: See? Everyone will be so much happier and fulfilled.
Cheater: I’m moving in with Shmoopie, she gets me. Literally.
Chump: I’m devastated and betrayed. I think I’m going to throw up.
Psychologists: This monogamy thing needs a rethink.
https://www.cdc.gov/std/stats17/natoverview.htm
Chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis are on the rise. Rethink monogamy. What could go wrong?
Rethink not get rid of. Hmm, but thinking leads to choosing. Which means there are options to choose from. That we should think about. So why not say rethinking cheating? Rethinking breaking contracts?
Hey maybe I should rethink paying my mortgage hahaha
As someone who got the clap from my piece of shit (soon to be) ex husband’s affair, I just have to laugh at how scared I was to get an STD in college. Jokes on me! I got my first and only STD while I was in “Monogamous” marriage. The people who write the articles have never experienced the devastation that cheaters cause- the shambled lives they create- the complete lack of care and compassion they show to everyone (except themselves). These writers can shove it- preferably up their STD infected asses. I’m feeling feisty today, clearly.
Teen suicide rates are on the rise too. I’m sure there’s NO connection.
Well, they didn’t ask me and I’m in the profession. I guess I would have been the only one to disagree.
Only “all psychologists” who betrayed someone.
Yup, that’s what I think too!
My thoughts exactly. The FW in my life is a practicing therapist and a practicing FW so let’s find out which side of the couch these ‘professionals’ sit/lie on!!!
FW has been practicing both ‘professions for over 25 years I might add. Great image management.
Think the real issue is honesty. If someone wants an open marriage – let them have it on the condition that their significant other knows about it. He knew, I did not nor did our children.
What is wrong with this picture!!!!
Oh, silly me, I forgot that FWs are also astute liars so good luck untangling this skein of fuchedupness.
“I can have an open relationship but you can’t so I am not going to tell you because then it wouldn’t work out for me because I wouldn’t be able to handle the competition.”
“There is no calamity greater than lavish desires.” Lao Tsu
Anybody listening? This has been know through cultures for centuries….and people are still trying to disprove it!!!!
A perfect example for “Never Believe An Absolute Statement”.
Somebody’s looking out for their future in RIC careers.
As chumps retain more agency cheater validation is the new untapped market.
Thank you CL for your hilarious account of this FAKE NEWS article. Anyone can report ‘anything’ and some will take it as truth. It’s hard to discern what’s really going on. Much like with cheaters.
Do you think a certain reporter gets orgasmic when finding a lack of ethical standards is excused by psychologists? Free ride, baby!
Also: Geologists have proven that 99.9 percent of reporters are lying cheaters hoping to create a seismic event by dumping large vats of Kool-Aid on the general populace.
Yo, let’s not dump on reporters. I’m a journalist. Yes, “fake news” (aka propaganda) exists. And real news exists. It’s up to us to use our critical thinking caps.
This would not pass journalistic muster — the unverifiable statements “Psychologists agree” (like “World’s Best Coffee”), the nebulous passive voice (“The question arises” — who asked the question?), the judgement (“worthless” being tossed off as fact, not opinion)… I could go on. I did. And that’s ONE paragraph.
It’s just shitty thinking. Any profession can be guilty of shitty thinking and sloppy reasoning. Again, WE must use God given commonsense.
Doesn’t do anything for social sciences either – a variation of Argumentum ad populum.
Was thinking that too. For an industry that’s fought to jump from pseudu to real science for decades, articles like this sure don’t help.
Many journalists are greatly admired, CL included. You simply rock CL. As for the ‘geologist’ comment…take that with a grain of rock salt.
See, once there was this mental health professional called Si. He was a bit of a twat. He and his mate, Col, got together one day over a couple of beers, whinging about their wives, and agreed that monogamy needed a bit of a rethink.
They went around the pub with a clipboard. Could monogamy use a bit of supplementing? Maybe even ditching? Si and Col said yes. Heaps of their mates said, hell yes!
Their Research made it very clear, and both the psychologists agreed.
You basically said what I did below except in a much wittier fashion! ????
This was just how Patrick Carnes, the father of “sex addiction” got started. It wasn’t a group of educated third party observers who identified the “addiction.” Nope. It was the addict HIMSELF.
1. Engage behavior that violates your marriage contract and will likely be considered perverted.
2. Label your compulsion arising from personality disorder an “illness”.
3. Blame your spouse so she seeks “therapy”.
4. Set yourself up as a cure for all “sex addicts” with your models that have never been independently and empirically tested.
5. Ca$h In!
Hmm… time to rethink so many standards!
Rethink Oral Hygiene!
Rethink Parent-Child Bonding!
Rethink Traffic Laws!
Rethink …
This list started out as funny and the more I typed, the harder it was to find moral and/social norms that are not being challenged currently in our society. I am usually gifted with sarcastic humor but not so much with this list as I may end up offending, instead of humoring, by what comes to my mind- things that I recognize as fixed moral standards. Monogamy is one of them.
It’s fine if thats what you BOTH agree on at the beginning of the relationship and it happens with consent.
It’s not fine when one party has no idea they are in a menage a trois, quartre, cinq of dubious quality.
Perhaps all psychologists have never been chumped and have zero frame of reference to how it feels or how your life is ripped out from under you, or how it affects children?
This. Exactly.
Yes, if it’s agreed upon by both parties and both are transparent about intentions and personal boundaries, then it can work, ( I know several poly families ) but cheating then calling it “polyamory” is a falsehood. Also- polyamorists can and do cheat, the culture of entitlement isn’t restricted to monogamists.
I think these “psychologists “ are probably cheaters or will be in the future. Making excuses then justifying bad behavior is unfortunately the norm today. They don’t look deep enough into the children’s or spouses lives after one parent destroys the family unit for fucking strange.
Almost vomited while reading the article. ????
Here’s my favorite line in the psychobabble: “But insisting upon a fairly unreasonable standard (lifelong exclusivity or else!) can, in fact, harbor the possibility of secrecy and betrayal.”
Right?! This article totally neglects the ethical solution to such an “unreasonable standard” for those poor folks who find themselves so attracted to someone outside the marriage that they can’t stop themselves from repeatedly breaking their promise of fidelity and covering it up with secrecy and deception. They don’t have to resort to betrayal. All they have to do is ask for a divorce before they hop in bed or in the back seat of a car with their close friend, colleague, or wife’s relative.
If I didn’t have meetings all morning, I’d be putting some serious effort into a special rewriting of “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.”
#HeShiversMyTimbers
???? Oh how I wish you had the day off! ????
Just for you Ami, I cranked this little bit out at lunch:
(music by Gordon Lightfoot, lyrics by Lucia O’Sullivan)
The legend lives on from the Maritimes on down
Of the teacher that called for agreement:
“The research makes plain, and I’ll try to explain,
That the cheating is not a mistreatment.”
“Commitment is tough, so we must have the stuff
To play nice, and we must not disparage.
The issue’s reframed, so they must not be blamed
For the wreck of your family and marriage…”
La, la, lala la la la laaaaa, la lala, la lala, la la laaaaaaaaaaa!!! ????????????
You’re the best, UX, thanks! ????????????????????
For the wreck of your family and marriage … ????
You made me laugh on a very hard day. Priceless
Well, my husband’s shmoopie would certainly agree with this one. She’s a twice divorced therapist, living with a boyfriend, and bonking my husband at least once a month. Oh, and she likes to preach about boundaries on social media. My biggest worry (besides healthcare and finances) in leaving the douche is how it will affect my high school and recent college grad daughters….Ugh.
Only 4 out of 5 dentists agreed that sugarless gum was best for their patients who chew gum, yet ALL psychologists agree that monogamy is a bust? Interesting…
“4 out of 5 dentists think the 5th dentist is wrong.” LOL. The author did refrain from saying “all” but merely implied it. Deceptive.
Despite laws against it, and the death penalty, people still commit murder. Hey, maybe murder is just normal human behavior and society needs to rethink our homicide laws?
Ditto for everything else lots of people do that hurts other people?
If we decriminalize everything and make it OK, then we will have no crime!!
Yeah, that’s it!
I guess my mother was wrong. If everybody is doing something, that means I should too.
I should let you know CN, that I dropped out of UC and never got my psychology degree. I was completely disillusioned by the number of nutcases in the field…professionals I met that were complete jerks or I just didn’t want to catch what they had. So many bad apples. When I finally found an excellent therapist who saved my life it felt like a miracle. ????
Lots of good people out there practicing but to me, the evidence of competence is not as clear as with a physician. Too much room for opinions.
Just this week, I learned the therapist who is seeing my daughter doesn’t think affairs are abuse
and the cheating accomplice didn’t hurt her. Well, my other long term highly trusted therapists disagree and I told her so. All therapists involved knows each other and are in communication with each other and a summit conference is planned.
I am pissed.
Velvet, most, not all individuals that go into the psych field have their own demons. They choose this field to try to understand their own woundedness. The best ones have done their own inner work. We all take into our adult lives what we experienced as children. It is what we do with that pain that makes us better in our profession.
Yes I know and agree. And I was one of them too. In my first year I learned I can’t fix myself, or my family. Dang!! Now what?! I also learned, of course, that I was the patient I wanted to fix. So I dropped out when I was 20 and started my self-improvement project at 22. At 55 I feel like I know even less than when I started! Going back and getting my degree is still on my bucket list.
Everyone on the planet of course has issues…there are just those that work on them and those that don’t. So my distrust is reserved for the “issue-free”…therapist or not.
I don’t blame you for being pissed. As nomoreskankboy points out, many people go into that field because they have had shitty pasts and most want to help others make sense of what happened to them and how to do better going forward.
Obviously there are nightmares in every profession and sadly, you have one in your midst. I hope the summit conference can reach a consensus that benefits you and your daughter. If that means one therapist is out the door – great.
*fingers crossed*
Velvet, please drop that therapist for your daughter. What she is teaching your DD is lack of boundaries, lying, betraying, etc., are ok. She is gaslighting your daughter. Her cheating father lied to her each time he said he was doing something, missed an event to be with his whore, saying one thing, yet doing another. NO, No and no! The whore did hurt your daughter, she is an accomplice to cheater’s lies, betrayal, etc. Now, I’M PISSED!
Thank you…I am going to see what our summit meeting results are before deciding to launch. She seems like she is open to rethinking her opinions after we spent half a session discussing how angry I am about her opinions as my own have changed with my actual experience of having been cheated on. I am not going to defer to her opinion on this for sure. My belief system was VERY different before this happened to me and IMHO Esther Repel needs to have her license revoked. Lying is abuse, affairs require lying; ergo, affairs are abuse.
I got an A in geometry as well as psychology and English…..
Shaking my head.
I didn’t catch on to the disordered as early as I could have.
Initially there was a cousin in law who was a nut job from the get go and she targeted me as a person to blame shift Darvo and smear.
She didn’t want any children and then at 40 when she did want children and I was preggers with another, she was enraged.
The whole freaking clan in laws went along with her bullshit.
I learned pretty quickly about people then.
But I finally just put my foot down and I laid it out there on the table and half the family went along with me and the other half who cares.
She’s now an ex in law to them.
She was one twisted bitch who was a marriage and family counselor. She was a nut job.
Psychologists? Meh.
Velvet-I had a similar problem with my daughter’s therapist. I was concerned about her whereabouts and read her text messages to discover she was buying high potency weed for all her friends and distributing it (not realizing this is “dealing” or that she was essentially using my money to buy drugs). The therapist supported my daughters’ claim that I was violating her privacy. She also spouted the same BS about the affair being my issue not my daughters’. She completely undermined my attempts to teach my daughters that it is not ok to have an affair and that a marriage is not something that is an antiquated, dismissible tradition. My daughter became more sullen and difficult under this woman’s care. After a semester on her own in college, she eventually checked herself into a program and got good care. She is 120 days clean now and has acknowledged that she loves her dad but he set a bad example with his behavior and that my parenting was not restrictive and that I did not “bad-mouth” her dad. She seems to be on the road to having normal relationships as well. Get your daughter a therapist that gives you the freedom to parent. You do NOT have to be forced to teach some psychologists’ beliefs about morality to your child.
Hi Velvet, can I just invite you to think about the other things a therapist might have seen. There’s a real step change when the impact of a person’s behaviour is to make you deeply afraid of them, which is characteristic of other acts of abuse. Cheating doesn’t necessarily reach that level of impact on a child.
There are defintely places where a person saying they were a victim of abuse because of cheating would go down like a lead balloon. Not because cheating isn’t abuse, but because there are people with much more profound trauma. While it’s not the pain Olympics I personally think being mindful when using the term is important and can understand that people with certain life experiences might struggle with that.
It’s really important to relate positively to labels. What could be really positive in helping one person move forwards could cause another person to get stuck and be a barrier to their healing.
The psychologist cited here (so often cited, because any citation is a good citation in the land of academia—big sigh) actually has a very clear political agenda. Her goal is to promote consensual nonmonogamy, and to reduce stereotypes about it. She doesn’t take on the thorny question of whether nonmonogamy is ever truly consensual. Right here on CN we can find many who were retroactively pressured into accepting a completely game-changing “open” relationship, but even with those who might seem to agree in advance, consent is an iffy notion, here. There’s often a power imbalance, for one thing, and the rules and agreements supposedly reached beforehand often shift without all concerned agreeing to that. People get hurt. Interestingly, this professor’s own research shows that even those who voice support for consensual nonmonogamy actually believe in and crave monogamy when their deeper attitudes are probed. She thinks that means we should root out that deep biases, but it seems far more sensible to interpret that as revealing a widespread deep human need for romantic and sexual exclusivity.
Anyway, interesting to see how the clickbait articles water down scholarly work, and to see how skewed toward a desired outcome that work often is to begin with.
I like how she cites an article as supporting her statements, as the work of ***other scientists***, only to follow the link and it’s a paper she CO-WROTE.
How is that a THING?
LOL. Awesome. Like if you just refer to yourself in the 3rd person a whole other person materializes.
All. Of. This.
Well i never knew my STBXH was a Psychologist !! He definitely voted for this
If it is his interest to fuck about with whores he would vote for this
5 out of 5 Pimps unanimously agreed that using the services of their prostitutes is good for your sex life.
The writer of the article, Lucia O’Sullivan, is not a news reporter. I found her Twitter feed. According to her own description she’s a “Researcher–close relationships, sexual health, technology–and professor; music festival organizer, runner, reader, writer.”
And I didn’t have to scroll too far into her feed to find her re-tweet of an Esther Perel tweet.
And the fact that she’s a “music festival organizer” gives the following article a lot more credibility:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/coachella-herpes-outbreak-std-increase-patients-1405857%3famp=1
“Researcher”= I look for stuff on the internet which validates my preconceptions.
“Music festival organizer”= I’m a drunken party animal who fucks lots of strangers.
“Professor” = I like having sex with college students, so I teach a few classes.
I cast my vote for…..
MORE SEA SHANTIES!!!!
What were we talking about again?
I’m here for the sea shanties! They DO need to be sung with gusto. I’m singing one now!
Fiddler’s Green! ????????
Well like I said to my therapist last week, I am losing my faith in people. Add this group of psychologists to the list. It’s like all the cheaters who left and f@#ked their families over are getting validation and passes for being complete low life’s. I bet my ex read an article or study like the one these so called psychologists put together and got his validation that what he’s done is ok. No it’s not ok. It’s not ok to waste years of someone’s life. No it’s not ok to trick someone into thinking you want the same things when you don’t. No it’s not ok to have kids with a person with the faciade that you will stay and stay true to your vows and family and be a decent empathetic moral person then run off and sleep with anyone who will give you a second glance while your family is at home being blindly screwed over in so many ways. No it is not ok leave your wife to raise the family you all created together alone while you shack up with a college kid and play sugar daddy. Look it’s one thing if you want to sleep around and be single and not have to worry about anyone except yourself that’s fine, do you, BUT it’s not ok to do that after you get married and have kids and told someone you wanted to be a good husband/wife and have kids and family and grow old together. No need to destroy other people to use them only to toss them aside for the real life you wanted.
Brilliant, Cathy.
I guess this also means that there’s no need to commit to a long-standing therapeutic relationship with a single psychologist. I mean, if there’s not really any significant value in focusing one’s effort within a relationship of value to accomplish shared goals together, then why reschedule with the same therapist week after week? After all, the therapist sees lots of clients, so why shouldn’t the client see lots of therapists?
I’m sure the owner of a therapist’s pocketbook would disagree. “That’s not the same thing”, I can hear them crying.
Point being, it’s easy to wax poetic about how other people “should” manage intimate relationships, but these particular psychologists would do well to stop telling others how to think and start helping others work on setting their lives up the ways the clients want their lives to be. If commitment is important in our eyes some of the time, then we don’t get to pick and choose when it’s important for other people.
The psychologist isn’t there to re-make you. That person is supposed to support you in building what YOU want.
“I guess this also means that there’s no need to commit to a long-standing therapeutic relationship with a single psychologist. I mean, if there’s not really any significant value in focusing one’s effort within a relationship of value to accomplish shared goals together, then why reschedule with the same therapist week after week?”
“The psychologist isn’t there to re-make you. That person is supposed to support you in building what YOU want.”
^^^^^THIS^^^^^
I’m a psychologist and this is some horseshit. … the original article I mean, certainly not the sea shanties.
???? Exactly! ????
Research has also said eggs are bad for you. And coffee. But wait, no, they’re good for you. Oopsies, we didn’t mean it, those studies were silly, we’re now positive that eggs aren’t so bad. At least we think. Coffee? Thumbs up now!
Look, I am a person who holds the scientific method in high regard. It’s the most reliable way to get to the truth of the matter. It is also subject to bias if not applied correctly. If you have an agenda to prove that monogamy is just too hard, then you can do that, but an agenda is much different than a hypothesis. I suspect this was driven by an agenda.
And I sure would like to know what this research entailed. The mass media tends to make proclamations in regard to research findings that completely ignore the nuance in the actual scientific papers. That’s partially how we get all the flip-flopping when studies are cited in the news. I’m sorry I’m rambling, haven’t had enough coffee yet, haha.
Back to this “research”. How could you ethically even test such a hypothesis, assuming that the hypothesis is roughly that when faced with a temptation, our intention to remain faithful will go out the window? I suspect that research that was done to explore facets of our attachments to each other was misused to come up with some overarching conclusion that we’re just not cut out to remain faithful to our partners.
In conclusion, I’m not convinced there was any scientific rigor involved in this proclamation at all. Show me the evidence is my default position.
I wonder if these psychologists that put this idea out there are cheaters themselves? Hmm ????
The earth is flat.
Oh boy, who let the cheater near the keyboard again???
“Psychologists agree”. That means at least two, but no necessarily any more than that.
Let’s not knock the entire field of psychology just because a couple of psychologists are screwed up in their thinking and getting some attention. Every profession has a few people who are really messed up. Should we all give up going to the doctor because there are a few quacks out there?
Omg Chump lady!! Too much laughter this early in the morning!! But seriously it sounds like fake news. What bullshit is this? Wow. Just wow.. I just can’t..
VERY interesting that the original article didn’t say ANYTHING about ‘psychologists’ having all agreed on this ‘monogamish’ approach. \
Methinks someone is manipulating! How SHOCKING!
The article, both the original and the gaslighting one, say we should negotiate what’s OK in our relationships, being realistic about the realities (realities according to them, of course). The example they give is that lunch w/someone else might be OK, but touch no.
Uhm, excuse me? Isn’t that monogamy????? I expect (and provide) mongamy, but still think we can all have friends….
Also, apparently, according to the authors, can we even call it monogamy if it’s serial monogamy, you know, one monogamous partner for a few years, then break up, meet somebody new, be monogamous w/them, and so on. Well, yes, actually, that IS monogamy!
Signed,
A psychologist who was not at that meeting where they all agreed on this ….
Well done.
that is just too much BS for a monday morning. hugs to all us chumps for loving and caring and being faithful to our cheaters. we deserve better. and yes it fucking hurts to be treated so poorly. anyone who makes light of honoring a committed relationship needs to walk in our shoes. then they can talk but im guessing it will be a different tune. it would be just great if we could live our lives not caring whether someone we love is a person of integrity. unfortunately people i admire who live successful lives are people i can trust – it is kinda basic survival instinct. hugs
My response to this theory is always: if human beings were really NOT made for monogamy, then why do we all get so upset at cheating? Why do we endure rage, depression, and want a giant hole to swallow us up? Why does anyone even feel jealousy? Why do societies all over the globe frown on it? Why do so many major religions disallow divorce, except for this one problem? No, the fact that we experience all these emotions, and have such strong, deep disapproval to it, tells me that monogamy is what we are made for.
To hell with Lucia’s “article”, let’s see her research papers and citations. Not that embedded links shit in that bs she got Apple to post. A properly written paper with methodology too.
What incompetent assholes refuse to accept is that even if you had an open marriage, there are agreed-upon boundaries and cheaters WILL BUST THEM. It is what they do, it is who they are and no matter how little you ask in return, you will not get it.
These are the same sort of people who won’t honor a safeword, or a firmly declared “no”. They will push, cajole, threaten…
^^^^Exactly THIS^^^^ Because, entitlement.
I would also like to add, I was once driving from CT to NJ in the middle of the night and happened upon a radio station playing ALL sea shanties. It was epic!
The actual academic article just barely referred to here is also pretty much bull. Add to that the whole playing telephone effect, and these fluffy articles are really just devoid of anything meaningful at all.
????Exactly so. They do it because they get a thrill from secrets, deceit and crossing boundaries. They rapidly become bored by open relationships and must find a way to break that agreement to in order to get their kicks.
Mr CL,
if you haven’t watched it already, please find time for ‘Master and Commander’. They sing your shanty!
WHAT a film. Any film with a big British cast is brilliant, but maybe I am biased. Peter Wier went to huge trouble to get the sounds (of a cannon ball whizzing past) exactly right.
The little midshipman looked a lot like my son, so I always cried in the harrowing scene …
When the crew got together for rehearsals, the officers wore different t shirts on the film set than the ratings. The actors started deferring to the officer actors (the Stanford Prison Experiment dynamic) …
Another interesting thing, was that the book was based on the American civil war, Old Ironsides was USS Constitution.
But research revealed that film audiences could not emotionally cope with the idea of the British and the Americans being at war, so they changed the enemy to the dastardly French!
One of my favourite films of all time.
Bahahaha!!!
Wow, just wow. I typically like to click on the links and read the articles that CL dissects, but this one is just too much. It lost me at the first sentence!
“Monogamy is difficult to maintain.”
Ummm, I disagree. I always found it easy to maintain. Sure, it wasn’t always rainbows and sunshine, but knowing we each had our backs and were committed to each other and our family was what it was all about for me.
oops typo – hadn’t wanted his marriage
I, too, don’t struggle with monogamy ay all. Love my monogamous life.
I don’t find monogamy difficult to maintain. Sometimes the struggle is not to smother him with a pillow, kick him out of a moving car or tell him to GTFO – but cheating isn’t my thing. I love him, but sometimes I don’t like him much.
I don’t understand people who can cheat and not hate the person they see in the mirror when brushing their teeth.
Trust, Unicornnomore and I were hated.
It is called ‘devalue and discard’
He told me he did it because he was angry with me (I wasn’t to divorce him, though)
I meant how can someone who cheats not hate themselves for doing so. Not how could they hate the person they cheated upon (although I wonder about that too).
Yes! How is it difficult to NOT FUCK random people? You literally have to do nothing, but go about your daily business. It’s finding someone to fuck, making arrangements to fuck, hiding the fucking that requires time and effort. It is not difficult to literally do nothing. I never was walking along at the grocery store picking out frozen peas when “OOOPS!” it seems I’m riding a strange cock in the frozen food section! Difficult to be monogamous….pffft. Idiots.
Ha! They’ll never let you back in the Safeway after that!!! ????????????????????
“ monogamy is difficult to maintain”
Well:
– clean kitchen with 3 kids in the house is difficult to maintain
– keeping my weigh in check while I stuff my mouth with donuts is difficult to maintain
– my exercise routine is difficult to maintain
– raising kids is difficult
Etc.
So what? Let’s go bananas and just do whatever we wanna do? Let’s let the kids stay up all night and walk to school… let’s not teach them how to be a decent human being… it’s to difficult
????♀️????♀️????♀️????♀️
Indeed. It’s difficult to resist the urge to steal that gorgeous pair of shoes I can’t afford. After all, theft is just a NATURAL, NORMAL rebellion against the injustice of capitalism, sociologists say. SO why shouldn’t I just take the shoes?
Uh…let’s see…because if lots of people just take the shoes, the store would go out of business and jobs would be lost. IOW, people would get hurt. If one is willing to hurt others just to satisfy a whim, one is what’s known as an asshole.
Monogamy is difficult to maintain if you are an entitled jackass who likes to triangulate sex partners.
I have one question for these “thinkers”: if we are helpless in the face of attraction to another person, why is it so damned painful when someone we love betrays us, emotionally, sexually or both? Wouldn’t we all be doing the same thing?
And for my psychologist friends, there are clunkers in other professions, too. See, for example, managers of bad baseball teams, the actors in low-beduget action and horror movies, surgeons who leave sponges in patients, and professors reading 40-year old lecture notes to kids with cell phones.
With regard to the the psycho babble , I’ve never read such shit ! The whole civilization thing is not succumbing to so called evolutionary traits but rather adherence to character norms established by years of developmental engagement and good of the whole moral value. These fucking Bozos loose me
It all boils down to one thing, when I ask my cheating Ex what he would have done if I had the year long affair and he found out”
His answer was, I would have left you in a heart beat. I am not as nice as you are.
Double standards. How could the marriage been strengthened if he would not have tolerated it like the Chumps do? I see a flaw in the logic of the psychologist, it scares me that we consider them an authority in any thing.
Yep! All of this is cheaters trying to groom larger numbers of chumps to just accept the double standard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkzdGvp6q_Y
[sorry, the shanty is the only thing worth commenting on]
These “psychologists” are simply trying to justify their own adultery, or desire for adultery. It is blame-shifting writ large. The expectation of monogamy is to blame for your feelings of betrayal, not the adultery itself. And the psychologists have made up reasons and signed it with Ph.D. at the end!
“Psychologists agree…” Which psychologists agree? Why the two who are banging each other in the back of the office while their spouses are unaware!
Lots of thoughts about today’s piece, which is shoddy social science AND irresponsible journalism. Unfortunately, all professions have their quacks. Let’s not contribute to the false generalization phenomena. Cheating is NOT a new thing that developed because of greater cultural acceptance of gay people, women’s increased workforce participation, social media, etc. Fact: it’s a historically persistent situation. Belief (at least among us chumps): it’s morally wrong and destroys lives and we choose to challenge those who justify it.
Truth. Wish there was a like button!
What a load of BS this “article” is.
If they were correct then why do most poly or open relationships fail ?
Why do cheaters almost always get married in a monogamous relationship and would freak out if their spouse cheated on THEM ?
Why is it that no matter the culture, race or technological level of a people, 95%+ choose monogamous relationships ?
If monogamy is so bad and against our desires, why do gay people prefer having monogamous relationships rather than a swinging lifestyle ? Indeed why do most prefer to marry one person and gasp even have a family ?
My point is that humans are hard wired for monogamy and while we have animalistic urges based on hormones, we all desire a monogamous love based relationship for the long term..
Is it just me, or does monogamy seem so much more sane than all that ‘conscious parallel coupling’?
Plus, I totally dig my partner <3 #twinsdadforever!
I just spoke with my cheater about this as a reason why I don’t want to try anymore or stay together “for the kids” as he put it. I’ve been hit on and, even *gasp* attracted to other men in our 25 years together. But I didn’t act on it and would flash my ring or say I’m married or just have some daydreams for a bit before realizing maybe I should focus on being a better wife and mom…while he gets a glance or a smile and thinks, “it’s on!”. No regard for our family or us. This article CL talks about is gaslighting nonsense again.
I was hit on at the gym once, when I was rehabbing of all things. The fact that I had a life changing injury that required rehab was something my ex came to resent about me, but I digress. I did the same thing as you! Mentioned my husband a million times and flashed my rings. I even told my ex about it at the time. His response? A solemn “please don’t act on it”. Not sure if he was cheating on me at the time, but he sure had some double standards later. He didn’t run off with anyone because he figured out she was a scammer, only after performing character assassination on me and informing his family he needed to divorce me because he’d met someone online who lived in another city. Pretty laughable because he was sleeping around, but she was “the one”. After shattering me into a million pieces he had the audacity to complain to me that he was angry because she had lied to him! Pure, unadulterated entitlement. That there are articles out there that give these pieces of shit validation for their immoral behavior makes me want to punch my fist through a wall.
Unadulterated entitlement run amok for sure. And double standards for us and them. He was angry with me for looking in his car and finding proof of ow. ???? Lets not focus on his actions, but on mine for looking for something and finding it????
Typical projection…. it’s not their action, it’s YOUR reaction to it
There is little doubt that the psychologist who wrote this piece is an adulterer.
The point is: If a person wants to have sex with other people then admit it. Give your partner the right to opt out of the relationship.
My ex was shocked when I confronted him with proof of his cheating. I said to him that if he was going to seek fun and adventure with a new partner then allow ME to do the same. He was totally outraged by this suggestion. ( I would never have had an open relationship. I was angry and just throwing it out there.)
I’m rethinking my monogamous relationship. I think only one of us is monogamous. I think my lawyer will be expensive but worth it in the end.
This article makes my blood boil. I wish my narcissistic ex had had a conversation with me about the fact that he was going to pursue other women. I could’ve broken off that relationship and moved on to someone who values monogamy. I don’t believe that every person will act on their impulses even if they find someone else attractive. I do believe there are people who can be flattered by attention but still see it as a red flag and walk away from temptation. I believe it because I can do it. If I can do it, so can anyone else who so chooses. Besides, these negotiated open marriages don’t always work, either. I have a cousin who is married and both she and her husband agreed to join a club of swingers. Despite their agreement, he was still jealous when she was fucking someone else even though he was doing the same thing. She eventually began to have “feelings” for one of her swinging fuck buddies. They decided to stop their swinging ways. It’s just a bad scene and I don’t think these types of arrangements work out so well, even when everything is “negotiated.”
I agree. From the outside looking in I think it’s even harder than monogamy and it’s safer to juggle live grenades. Glad they left that scene.
Monogamy is a principle of conduct. If psychologists argue that holding to that standard is unreasonable because our feelings are the most important thing, then what value does any principles have? Or as Charlotte Bronte wrote so long ago, “ Laws and principles are not for the times when there is no temptation: they are for such moments as this, when body and soul rise in mutiny against their rigour … If at my convenience I might break them, what would be their worth?
In fact, wondering how this vote of no confidence came about. Everything about it is wrong. An insult to your soul as mentioned above.
I used to think about this a lot when trying to justify my ex’s behavior and my reasonings for staying. I got confused, and reading articles like this just increased my confusion.
I wish people would be more genuine in how they present this kind of material. It’s ok to write an article that says “Monogamy is not for everyone! Take some time to think about whether it’s for you and build a relationship accordingly.” But I guess that wouldn’t get so many clicks.
“Psychologists”, my ass. That’s just to give this tripe an appeal to authority. It’s just an idiot’s opinion, that’s all. I always get a laugh when somebody presents their own bone-headed belief and then justifies it with “experts say”, “scientists say” etc. If you ask the blowhard to name said experts, scientists, psychologists, etc. then at most, he or she can name one or two. Usually they just evade answering. Epic logic fail, dumbass.
Also, I would love to see a live debate on some of these issues between CL and someone from this wave of non-monogomous “professionals.” Totally popcorn worthy.
NANC, popcorn worthy indeed. This would be a double-butter popcorn gig!
Brene Brown uses a brilliant term for BS communication like this: She calls it the invisible army. I’ve highlighted and underlined this part of her latest book Dare to Lead: “WE don’t want to change course,” or “WE don’t like the direction you’re taking with this project.” I hate the invisible army, and if you use it with me I will drill you down on exactly who makes up your WE. Voicing and owning our concern is brave. Pretending that we represent a lot of folks when we don’t is cheap-seat behavior.”
I flinch now every time someone uses the word “intentions.” Cowardly cheaters always ramble on about how their intentions were pure as the driven snow, but alas, fate had other plans…
I still remember vividly Cheater literally screaming in my face, “WHY WON’T YOU LISTEN TO MY INTENTIONS?!”
Apparently, he intended to be faithful, but somehow found himself dialing hookers. I asked him whether it was space beams from sex-obsessed Martians directing his every move… He didn’t find that amusing. Neither did I.
I am a psychologist. I do NOT endorse this message. Not do the other psychologists I know.
I thought psychologists were supposed to call people out on enabling – not lead the charge.
So you all have idea of what CL puts up with, three ladies currently on heavy rotation on the sea shanty playlist:
“Eliza Lee,” by the Dreadnoughts:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtMan8mNzM
Also by the Dreadnoughts, “Sally Brown”:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rmZVQmxrwx0
And though perhaps technically not a shanty, the ultimate seafaring Chump come-back tune, “The Mary Ellen Carter,” by Stan Rogers:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8uirXFig0IQ
#ShantyNerdsUnite #RiseAgain #gusto
Who knew there were so many sea shanty nerds in CN?
Arrgh me hearties … Consider my timbers shivered ….
So sorry – that should read ‘ME timbers shivered’
My Mom would sang shanty’s to me growing up, one I remember the words to is “What do you do with a drunken sailor”
I’ve thought of changing the words to “What do you do to an entitled cheater”
here’s some of the original words..
What do you do with a drunken sailor,
what do you do with a drunken sailor,
what do you do with a drunken sailor,
earl eye in the morning..,
Way hey, and up she rises,
Way hey, and up she rises,
Way hey, and up she rises,
Earl eyeing the morning..,
Shave his belly with a rusty razor,
Shave his belly with a rusty razor,
Shave his belly with a rusty razor,
Earl eye in the morning..,
It continues with different verses.
Chump Lady, if Mr. CN likes shanty’s
He might like British Skiffle songs.
“Momma don’t like no skiffle music round here”
Oh, no she don’t..
Sorry, I meant Mr. CL.
I’ve got to run, just noticed a Mr. CL post above mine with recommended songs.
I’ll need to read it when I get back.
My cheating spouse has a phd in psychology, researching on autonomy and self determination theory but exercise no self control and actively pursued and professed her love for her AP cum coworker of only a few months…like how she pursued me when i was her new coworker of a month.
I see, I see. So I’ve just finished my bachelor level qualification in psychology, and I remember distinctly studying a lot of statistics, and a lot of biology, and a lot of neuroscience, and counselling techniques, and different schools of psychological thought.
In every class, I was left in no doubt that psychologists DON’T agree on pretty much anything.
I must have been dozing off during the class on how psychologists agree that monogamy is defunct, because I am pretty sure I would have remembered that one.
Perhaps we’ll cover that in my higher studies in the field. Perhaps there’s a secret initiation rite I have to go through first? Maybe getting paddled with a copy of Freud’s ‘The Interpretation of Dreams’? Or having to eat my own weight in back copies of the APS Code of Ethics?
What I learned after my wife of 4x children and twenty five years had two affairs that I know of. #1 I conduct myself by my personal code which is aligned with my goal to be my personal best. Being my personal best means not lying to people (any people). #2 When I discovered my wife did not share this quality with me, it changed my level of respect for her but I tried to remain her loving husband for the benefit of our kids, for stability in our lives, and in the hope she would rediscover the value of her marriage, family, family home, and her husband. Eight years later I discovered her second affair. I realised she did not share a basic value of honesty and value for our marital union, our family solidarity, our family home, nor did she have respect for me. Therefore, I ended the marriage nine years after discovering the first affair. I do not regret my decision. I wish I had been a little bit swifter and direct and decisive. “IT” is not about psychologists. “IT” is not about her nor the mechanisms she was operating under. “IT” is about me living my life to my truth and my doing what is best for my children.
I do not give away any of the power of decision to her. I do not give away any of the power of decision to psychologists’ opinions. This is my life and the life of my children and that makes it far too valuable to give any piece of the decision away to anybody but myself. I own my decision. She gave her voting rights away when she opted twice to act outside of our promise to put our marriage first. I do not control her actions, thoughts, or values. I only have control over my responses to her actions and my actions, thoughts, and values. By owning the consequences of my decisions, am free and liberated. I cannot blame anyone for my actions, thoughts and values. This allows me to work towards being my best self.
Robert, very well put. I relate to a lot of what you say. It took me a while, but I came to the same realization that this is our life, and it’s not up to her to tell us how to live it. We need to live and act according to our values and what is important to us.
I believe in monogamy . Mono. One. Me , myself and I. I’m good.
Great post, Tracy!
This one struck a nerve.
I agree, where did they get these psychologists? Where is the show of hands? I asked the psychologists I know. They did NOT agree that monogamy was out-dated, out-moded, or impossible. The psychologists I spoke with said monogamy is the norm for humans.
I would also ask what is a psychologist? How are they defining what makes a psychologist and what does not.
From the slant of their article, I believe they think everyone who says monogamy is NOT possible is a psychologist.
Everyone who believes monogamy is possible, who also has a graduate degree in Clinical Psychology from an accredited university, who has also done volumes of research taken from peer-reviewed psychology journals to show that monogamy is the norm, is NOT a psychologist.
I think that’s how they must be defining what is and what is not a psychologist.
So, this “not psychologist” here has done about 17 years of research now and said research has been found in peer-reviewed journals. This not psychologist here is also an enormous Chump who wanted to find out why the heck her first longterm relationship and her last longterm relationship caused her to be chumped. I have always believed in the “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me,” and these peckers always got dumped. Years ago I wanted to find out if monogamy was really possible. You see, there was this really strange thing. Monogamy was always possible for me. I never had a problem being monogamous, even when in some of those awkward grad school long-distance relationships. Paradoxically, the two peckers who chumped me were not long-distance relationships. I owned a house and assets and all that stuff with pecker #2. (Also, I have not used the word “pecker” since middle school. I think it’s time to revive the word because it’s as childish as these cheaters were). So, the two peckers who cheated on me did not do so because they lacked attention. And the one time I had a long-distance boyfriend I saw every six-months, I never cheated on him.
But, let’s go to the !research!
I feel like I am spinning the wheels on wheel of fortune. (Spins the wheel.. ) “The research says…. people are wired to be monogamous!” However, temptation always exists. So do douchebags. So do narcissists. So do people who mistreat animals. So do people who grab women’s parts on subways. Some people who grab women’s parts even get elected to major leadership positions.
Inclination to monogamy or not, isn’t even the problem. People are wired to be monogamous. Character and lack of it is the problem. Looking for excuses for being a pecker is a problem. Believing keeping promises is optional is also a problem. Believing the rules only apply to everyone else is another problem. Lack of empathy is another problem. Selfishness is another problem. Lack of self control is a problem.
And one of the biggest problems is when David Brooks and his Child Bride actually run a center on character studies.
Just that alone demonstrates that the general population has gone loopy. Who is putting crap in the water? This country has gone crazy.
Each of us as adults have a million decisions to make each day. Some people were able to internalize moral values when they were children and others were not. Everyone grew up one day. Now the world can be divided into two sections: monogamous and non-monogamous. That’s all I reall care about. If your friend, parent, employee, spouse, pastor, Rabbi, spouse is monogamous, you are in good hands. If they are not. Better not to even be involved with them. If they can do that to someone they love, what are they capable of doing to others? (A caveat: if there is a unicorn who reforms, that person is trustworthy).
Now, on a serious note, people are wired to pair bond because it creates successful societies.
Think of societies where people don’t really pair bond. They have lots of kids by different fathers. These children grow up to have terrible issues.
For human civilization to survive, it must have order and it must have a framework in which future generations are set up to thrive. This happens when you have societies full of monogamous and pair-bonded couples. It also happens when everyone follows standard rules of conduct that keep peace among a society. Our brains have chemicals – such as oxytocin – that continue to renew the bond between a pair-bonded couple. Oxytocin can also bond babies to their moms. And oxytocin can make people feel all warm and fuzzy. It’s a good thing and it’s there to ensure loyalty and a strong bond.
So why are psychologists saying monogamy is impossible? Well, if you look at research, narcissism has nearly quadrupled. We have also become a society where there is no such thing as common decency, there are no standard boundaries or rules of good behavior, and there are NO consequences.
I have a mom. My mom isn’t even old. But, she talks about the absolute demolition of the Western world that she has seen in her lifetime. She is NOT talking about progress like equal rights. She is talking about the utter lack of empathy, lack of common decency, lack of the larger society holding truly bad people accountable. (A bad person is one who devastates other people or animals through direct harm. You can devastate your family by having affairs and you can devastate animals by harming them emotionally or physically).
But, let’s also put this into context. Look at the world today. My oldest showed me a news article today. This is the 10th article I have seen where some mom puts her child on Craigslist and offers their child’s body to pedophiles who are willing to pay.
When people have gone so crazy that they are willing to sell their infants to pedophiles, it doesn’t surprise me that some idiot would write an article that talks about how psychologists don’t think monogamy is possible.
That is how far society has fallen.
Since I do keep track of the revisions of the DSM, I have been part of a group of people who are fighting the normalization of pedophilia. Every time the DSM comes up for revision, people from a more or less defunct NAMBLA come forward and they want to be classified as people with a sexual preference. I have seen some conservatives blame this on the gay community. However me and my gay friends know that homosexuality is a true sexual preference. Sexual preference must include the concept of CONSENT. If the object of affection cannot give consent, it’s not a sexual preference, it’s a crime. For example, a 25-year-old woman is walking home in the dark. A 25-year-old man, whom she has never met, pins her down and rapes her as she kicks and screams. That man may say raping women in the dark is his sexual preference, but the law classifies him as a rapist and a criminal. Rape is not a sexual preference. (Also, children cannot EVER consent to a sexual relationship, so if anyone thinks they can, forget about it).
But, let’s get back to the topic: Infidelity.
It is absolutely bogus to say that people can’t do monogamy and that they have no choice in the matter. If that were true, humans automatically get put on the same level as bonobos. Bonobos live in zoos and throw fecal matter at each other because they cannot help themselves. If humans cannot help themselves and have no personal agency through which they can control base desires, then I guess they had better get moving and join the bonobo exhibit at the zoo. I hope those non-monogamous humans have fun living in the bonobo exhibit. Please dispatch David Brooks there soonest. Maybe his buddy whose name starts with an “E” can join him. They can ponder the aliveness and discovery of free love in the bonobo exhibit and how it builds character.
Meanwhile, this evolved human is wired for monogamy and will always be monogamous, through thick and thin, and for richer or for poorer, and in sickness and in health. No one could pay me to have an affair. Not even 50 billion dollars. My monogamy is so hard-wired that it cannot even be bought. That is how deeply the idea of having an affair and betraying the person I am supposed to love disgusts me. I guess that makes me a “not psychologist,” huh.
For all the psychologists who think monogamy isn’t possible, I would be happy to find their spouse a lover. I would be more than happy to help the psychologist who doesn’t believe in monogamy to walk in on their spouse trying out the Kama Sutra with a stranger in their marital bed. Maybe they can sit there and quietly study how monogamy is not possible while their spouse of 20 years bangs someone so loudly that they wake the dead. (Oh and also the neighbors too). Then that psychologist can present me with their research findings on how they are totally okay that monogamy is not normal. (That is, if they can make phone calls from the looney bin. Walking in on such situations drives any normal human being to the brink). Let’s see how enlightened these psychologists are when someone does it to them.