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Way to Take Down a Cheater

A standing ovation for Talia Jane, a young writer who posted screen grabs of a conversation between her and married journalist perving on her.

Need a primer in how to shut shit down? Here’s a master class.

Background — she’s a young, underemployed writer, he’s an older dude offering career advice.

Then, as it often is with flaming freaks, things suddenly go terribly wrong.

Here’s a decision tree. Does she ignore him? Block him? Ask herself what she did to give him the impression she wanted his jizz on her face? (Mr. CL, incredulously: “Is that a line that works on the ladies?”)

Maybe it has worked for him — but that day it did not. Perhaps he mistook a woman for a tissue, but she correctly identified him as a creep.

What happens next is beautiful.


Three guesses where he goes next. Remember the three mindfuck moves — charm, rage, and self-pity. (I’m assuming “cum on your face” was the charm offensive.)

If you guessed Self-Pity, you win a flaccid sad sausage!

Faux introspection (“I’m a POS”)? Check.

Lame promises to do “anything”? Check.

Subterfuge (“that wasn’t intended for you”). Check.

It’s Not What I Did, It’s Your Reaction to It (Help! I’ll Get Fired And It’s All Your Fault!) Check.

It’s Not What I Did Blameshifting, Part 2. (Don’t tell my wife! Her devastation is all on you!) Check.

Talia Jane’s response to this bullshit:

She screenshots the entire exchange and posts it on Twitter.

Pervy dude is currently on suspension pending an investigation. He admits to the exchange, but insists it was meant for another tissue target person.

Let’s hear it for BOUNDARIES, CN! A big MIGHTINESS shout out to Talia Jane!

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Go Talia Jane! I see that Mike has lost his job (good) and I hope that his wife find CL and CN shortly.

    • I believe he is suspended pending an investigation. If you have an update, please post a link. Thanks!

      • You’re correct. I thought he was fired. Suspended while they investigate. Ditto for the Society of Professional Journalists for Western Washington.

        “aware of sexual harassment allegations involving one of our board.”
        “We take this claim very seriously and have suspended the board member pending further information,” the organization added. “Sexual harassment is a pervasive issue in journalism and other industries, and we support survivors.”

        *note to self – cup of coffee before typing*

        I still hope his wife find CL/CN. Regardless.

        • And….first four letters of “pervasive” spell perv.

        • Ditto – pure attention seeking. I feel terrible for his wife. How awful for her that this information has become so public, before she had a chance to digest it in the privacy of her own home.

          • Personally, I put greater weight on the fact that the chump KNOWS. I found out in a pretty awful way, as I’m sure many did. It was still better knowing.

      • “It was a tweet. Repellant and vile. But…”

        What’s the old saying? Everything before the word “but” is a lie?

        “But perhaps Talia Jane could have shown a mite of compassion for this man’s wife.”

        Ah yes, the old “victims of sexual assault and harassment only speak out for attention – why can’t they just shut up.” Classic!

        Do you have any other misogynist old tropes you’d like to trot out? Rape victims are just girls who regret the sex in the morning? Women can’t be in government because of their periods? Why should nice young boys have their futures ruined because of a few mistakes? Come on, why stop at one?

        BTW, no, victims of sexual assault and harassment are not obligated to keep quiet to save the perpetrator’s job or reputation (because let’s be honest that’s who you’re really worried for here) – or the reputation of anyone around the perpetrator (not that you actually care).

      • The problem is what HE DID, not how it was revealed or what repercussions followed.

        He’s a creep and I doubt this is the first time he’s pulled this kind of crap.

      • She is a victim of sexual harrasemet. The silencing of victims is exactly what allows this behavior to continue.

        She is very brave to stand up for herself and to risk the abuse she is clearly already getting from people. She is an inspiration to women everywhere and has every right to tell her story exactly as she sees fit.

      • I agree with you. I thought this doxing was over the top and more of a self seeking behavior. She was not thoughtful or considerate at all. We all get offended by guys being their lower base selves, but to ruin his entire life and his family’s was completely unnecessary as this is between him, his family and God. Shame on this fledgling, struggling, so-called journalist. I’m losing more and more respect for that profession by the day.

        • Right, and rape victims should also think of the rapist’s family before they go to the cops, by your ridiculous reasoning. Why in the hell should she be “thoughtful and considerate” about being sexually harassed by a disgusting pervert?

      • What a bunch of perv-enabling horseshit. Why on earth should his wife be the first one privy to knowledge of his online sexual harassment? Do you also think women who are harassed in the workplace are obligated to track down a harasser’s wife to soften the blow before they go public? We’re not talking about cheating or ddays here. This was not an affair. He’s a *sexual predator* who disgustingly attacked a woman with perverted filth. Should sexually assaulted women also consult the rapist’s wife before they report it to authorities?
        Your post would be laughable, were it not so infuriating.
        Then, of course, you had to make the classic “she just wants attention” accusation that enablers of predators always do.
        Rape culture propaganda on full display, right here on Chump Lady. I never thought I’d see the day.

        • i love you for this.

          that is exactly it. I don’t need my harasser’s permission to report him. I don’t need to consider the ramifications on his life. That is HIS job. HE decided to talk filth to me…where was HIS permission to do that?

          The wife…I know personally…CYNTHIA….of wives who know full goddam4&$&$ well their husband is a sick fuck and they do NOTHING to “consider the victims”

          It seems to me CYNTHIA that perhaps someone outed your scumbag and it was just so inconvenient for you? Anyone who would take the side of “considering the feelings of and ramifications to” a sexual predator has some serious issues of their own.

      • I expect the wife enables her husband’s sexual perpetrator behaviors. As long as he looks good to other people, it’s all good, eh?

        • Guys, “Sweet Potato” is a known troll on this blog, I deleted the post. During my lunch break. Please don’t feed the trolls. As you were.

    • I hope his wife is still able to get a good settlement. My DDay occurred when Schmoopie’s husband called to tell me about there affair. He was also one of Ex’s flight students although he quit when he found out about the affair. In addition to being upset by the affair I was upset that he had been stupid enough to bang a client’s wife. I was afraid he would lose his job which wasn’t going to improve my situation any. The pervert might deserve to lose his job but the wife doesn’t deserve to lose income because her husband is an idiot and a pervert.

        • That’s even worse. She might end up owing him alimony or child support if he doesn’t have one.

  • I am still secretly hoping that one day we have a Friday thread on ‘The opportunities to cheat that I never took’, because I’m certain we could have a lot of fun.

    It’s really easy to block sexual approaches in the workplace by feigning ignorance of double entendres.

    Or by asking them to repeat suggestive comments several times because you didn’t hear them properly the first time, and asking them to do it louder because you still aren’t sure of what they said.

    Then finally when you ‘hear’ them, you repeat it back to them in a loud voice so that other people can overhear, and add ‘… I THOUGHT that’s what you were saying, but I couldn’t think why you’d be saying it, seeing as you’re married with three children, and I’ve met your wife, and she’s lovely’.

    • Honest to god, over a lifetime of “no thanks, and I’ll be going now” exits from similar predatory situations at work, school & more recently online this woman is who I wish I had been.
      What is so hard to understand about the basic rule that says the tenacious and inappropriate pursuit of colleagues (or anyone else for that matter) results in a bill coming due?
      Her shutdown of that behavior didn’t even take a pause – gives me hope:)

      • I shut one down last week. Married sad sausage… After the charm. Didn’t work.
        They are soooo tiring.

      • I am so so sick of having what seems like a civil conversation only to find out these guys are just fishing. I can’t even count how many times a seemingly nice conversation is followed up with “Hey baby”. Or “Hey beautiful”. As if simply by talking with them, they’ve given themselves permission to be scumbags.

        • Just a couple weeks ago I told an ex I’m flattered but I won’t do anything at any point to hurt my current partner. Seems pretty simple to me!

    • “Affair Chances Chump Nation Never Took”

      That is a brilliant idea. I’m sure we all have some stories.

      I know I have found myself cornered, after having been targeted by a woman, then finally had all the recent complimentary things she said click into place in an instant, and I felt like I accidentally stepped into a narrow ledge overlooking a canyon.

      Or that I just saw the lovely, regular high grass in front of me has a lioness crouched in it.


  • Following your link and reading Talia Jane’s actions was empowering. The lesson of standing up for yourself when entitled people act like shit is important.
    Let people read about Mike and let his stupidity be a life lesson.
    That’s the point of telling the truth loud and clear.
    I may regret things in my life but I will NEVER regret telling the truth about what was done to me and my kids, including telling the spouses of anyone who assisted my cheater financially.
    Consequences are real.

  • She saves it and reports it.
    He’ll probably say it was a joke.
    Do you think its the first time he’s done it. Probably not.
    I don’t know about America but journalism is quite hard to get into in England.
    Bullying is supposed to be quite bad in journalism.

    • Ummm–are you talking about the same press that physically surrounds and attacks their “victims”? Yeah, thanks, I’ll pass! I don’t suppose one can blame the press corps in the UK, because that’s how they’ve been co-opted by the Murdochs.

  • I read the twitter feed. This is spectacular! What I have a problem with is, if this were his wife posting messages she’d found, she’d risk loosing her children. …. ask me how I know!

    It’s great that if you aren’t married to the fuckwit you can out the perv…but can we get to the point where the other innocent victim (the spouse) can out a perv without fear of retaliation and losing child custody? Oh wait, if you married a fuckwit you have no rights.

    • You are so right! A mother cannot tell the children the full truth as it might alienate the “relationship” with their father. A spouse cannot have the house “sold” because he needs a place to live and it would be unfair to force him into poverty because of “marriage breakdown”. Is our society evolving or will the patriarchal element forever rule?
      Of course I believe the children should be told some truth age appropriately but it sucks for the cheated parent. I do however believe that there should be some mechanism in place to stop cheaters(of all kinds) from evading paying bills – even court judgements.

      • I would never give my children all the horrid details, all they know is he cheated.

        I was threatened with a gag order and a custody battle (by an official letter from his attorney) if I discussed his behavior with friends, family or coworkers…..Because apparently its my job to protect him from the consequences of his own behavior!

        #itsnotmybehavioritsyourresponsetoit #screwinghookersdoesntmakemeabadperson

        • I don’t think this letter is legal. After all, cheating isn’t illegal so why wouldn’t you be allowed to discuss him? This letter is just an attempt to scare you.

          • Yes, a letter as such is legal. Been there, done that. It falls under defamation of character and personal privacy laws! It sucks but that is a costly mistake that so many people make when sharing personal information about others. I spent over 10k hiring an attorney to fix what I said about my cheater. The truth does not set you free… it costs you lots of money.

            • Yikes — but isn’t defamation of character if it isn’t true. Anyways, I didn’t have to out my STBX he outed himself (was very smart about changing all passwords and that but son found a hidden stash of stuff that made it clear he was sleeping with other people). Perhaps he truly wanted me to find out — obviously I wasn’t picking up the clues fast enough 🙂

            • Right. The truth of just any old sort doesn’t set you free, but then, that popular mis-quote isn’t what that Bible verse says, either.

              Defamation, I think, is only a thing if you can’t prove what negative stuff you’re saying. Then, you’re The National Enquirer, but if it’s so and provable, you just said the truth. That is your right, in the States.

              Anyone can send an official looking threatening letter. Trying to bully their opponents is a regular lawyer strategy, and they hope you always “err on the side of caution”.

              Each situation should be evaluated while pondering one’s own details, just in case you’re about to stumble into a life trap. I exposed my cheater wife, who was using me like a mask And a bangle. No. Not allowed.

              • Again, I’m just intrigued by this defamation of character thing. If true, then nobody should inform AP’s affair partner about cheating if it’s about personal information and defamation. Also, how do all the journals print all sorts of lies about celebrities but don’t get sued?

              • You are correct that defamation is about truthful vs. untruthful statements that are in print.

                However. If the person being outed can prove damage to him/herself such as, in the form of losing employment…then the person printing the information can be sued.

                While I do not condone outing cheaters on websites, the websites use the Communications Decency Act as protection. This enables them to claim innocence because all they do is provide a platform. If you want to go after someone for printing the truth about you, you have a steep hill to climb.

                it also depends on what uou are saying or printing. If you are telling your kids and family Cheater is a lowlife POS, that is slander. If you tell them factually that Cheater went on a date with someone not you on Christmas Eve and leave it at that? Cheater cannot legally do one thing to you.

                They can squawk all they want but if the information is truthful without the commentary or opinions…they have no case.

                I have mixed feelings about outing someone online, whether it’s truthful or not.

                On one hand, you are able to search for and find predators on listings like the Sexual Offenders Database. Great thing to have.

                A good number of sexual predators are never caught…like the man from Seattle Times. So how do we reveal them and prevent further damage by them?

                I certainly did nothing to prevent my Cheater from victimizing others. I was just happy to be alive and away from him. I wasn not about to publicize his predatory behavior because it was embarrassing as well as the fact that I kept that marriage going for years….trying to reconcile. How does that look on me??

                It is difficult to keep commentary out of describing an emotionally devastating event. If you want to out a cheater, do it anonymously online and keep to the facta that can be proven. Otherwise, it turns into slander and defamation.

                The thing that bites is that some of us chumps are guilty of defamation and slander. Adultery and all it entails is an intimate soul crushing attack on our very human foundation.

        • Oooooh…. I would so have to push that. I’m so BAD at keeping my mouth shut and all I would need to make me sing like a canary is getting a letter like that from my ex’s pencil-necked, puss-cake attorney. I would tell EVERYONE I could think of EVERYTHING he did that knew about. Threaten to gag-order me? Yeah, fuck you.

          • Hai, Kintsugi! May the Nine-tailed Kitsune guard your forward paths.

          • Douchebag tried to write a super broad non-disparagement clause into our divorce agreement. It was just a couple sentences and I think he was hoping I would miss it in the long complicated agreement. So under such an agreement, even if your statements don’t meet the legal definition of defamation, you could be found in breach of the agreement, even for telling truthful statements.

            Nice try buddy.

            I was tempted to cross it out, but it went both ways so I decided to keep it. I rewrote it to define the term disparagement as making “knowingly untrue” statements to someone known to be the other person’s employer. That much I can do. Everyone else gets the truth if I choose to tell it. Tip for newbies, read that agreement.

      • Thank you for posting this. I was told by multiple “peofessionals” that I must not ever tell our children about the real reason for our divorce because it would “damage them” and damage their relationship with their father. I’ve kept that so far, but it kills me everytime my daughter asks me why can’t we be a family living together. I’ve stuckntk the script “we’ve decided everyone is happier living in separate houses” BS.

        I had 1 therapist who told me that I should tell them (in age appropriate terms) that their dad cheated on me and I cant stay married to him because of the damage and hurt he caused. That therapist told me if the kids learned the truth one day, they may be very angry at essentially being lied to about the reason why our family split apart.

        I still haven’t told them.

        Does anyone have experience with this? Did older/adult children find out the truth and dealt with anger and resentment from learning the truth much later?
        Does telling kids (about age 12) damage them?

        • Melissa, I’m interested in this result too. I have a 7 year old with cheater and I told the truth.

          Cheater wanted to deliver the line, “mommies and daddies feelings can change…”. And I shot that down straight away. I said my feelings hadn’t changed and he wasn’t laying this blame on me.

          I feel that kids are really aware and can see the results of the cheating behavior. This isn’t a normal drifting apart where we will have a smooth and calm coparenting relationship. I don’t want my son growing up thinking mom and dad just changed feelings and decided easily to break up the family.

          Family is the most important value to me, which is why this is such a gut punch. I want my son to grow up knowing I fought for our family, but that there are deal breakers. And I’m not a liar. I don’t want him to grow up thinking you can just give up on your values when they become inconvenient.

          I’m not covering for cheater. If he was so worried about what his son would think of him, he shouldn’t have broke not up the family.

          • Have you read CHump Lady’s book? She makes a good argument for telling the kids, in an age appropriate way. Essentially: Dont gaslight your kids.

            • My mother had an affair and cheated on my dad when us four kids were quite young. No one told us anything. All we knew was that our dad went insane and our family blew up in a million little pieces. All four of us kids were extremely damaged and there are only two of us alive today. I did not find out about the affair and the cheating until I was in my late 20’s when my aunt (my dad’s sister) told me. It would certainly made much more sense to me about my dad’s reaction and state of mind. I grew up afraid of him and his anger. I also grew believing that families ‘just blew up’ for no good reason. I don’t believe that it serves any purpose to hide the real reason the family dissolved from your kids.

              • similar. When I phoned my mother to tell her my wife cheated on me I got back “I’m sorry you’re going through that, do you think you could stay with her for daughter’s sake because your father ( now deceased) stayed with me after I cheated on him”.

                I now understood why my dad was angry and miserable all the time. I sometimes wonder what kind of relationship I could have had with him if I knew the truth about what was going on around me through my childhood. Unfortunately he had died two weeks before I found out about EX cheating. He probably would have told me to run for the hills and have a happier life.

          • My parents were divorced and didn’t tell me why. (My mom cheated and left him) and it left me with the feeling that they didn’t try hard enough. Having divorced parents made me want to try harder in my own marriage. I should have left him before we were ever married and I feel like if my parents had told me what happened I wouldn’t have felt like I just needed to try harder. I would have been more willing to evaluate character. I told my kids “your daddy lied to me”. Just that small detail sent him into a fury. He retaliated by telling them I lied (another lie). I stand by my decision. The extra shit sandwich is his super sweet OW has been living with them for 2 years satisfying herself with my children instead of having her own. I don’t know if they’ll ever be able to understand it but at least they’ll have a crumb of truth and maybe feel free to discuss it more as they get older.

          • Good instincts. Fear is the “don’t tell” motivator. Explain well to the children, just like with a death, and tell Fear to get in line behind Determination.

            My brother did like Mom and explained every single thing. To his son, before that son could even talk, even satellite dishes and so on.

            Hey, that boy understood and is a genius. Kids understand Way more than the pets some people take them for.

        • I was told way too much, way too young about my father’s behavior. YES it was damaging to me to know that much information, however it was not just knowing that much, that soon. The damage stemmed from the behavior that led to the information that was shared with me way too early. It is a double edged sword. We don’t want to rob our young children of their innocence by divulging that their misbehaving parent is a lying cheating heartless person, but at the same time, we don’t want to mislead them into believing that the misbehaving parent is Mr./Ms. Wonderful and Perfect, either… bad behavior yields bad consequences. I wish I had a good answer for you.

        • I wish I had told my children sooner. There were so many things they could never figure out. My 12 year old son became angry, my 10 year old daughter shut down, my 7 year old daughter developed a chronic health condition. ALL OF THESE improved when they learned the truth 4 years later.

          I too had been told my a therapist and a mediator and especially cheater ex that this was between him and me. No. In fact infidelity impacts the whole family. How would you like your life to suddenly and drastically change for the worse and be the ONLY ONE who doesn’t know why? Looking back I wish I’d had more respect for my children and less for people who don’t know them at all.

          My words were simple, without opinion and entirely true: “Your dad got a girlfriend and we had promised we wouldn’t date other people when we got married. He broke our promise.” Even young kids can understand that.

          When I told my youngest, who actually brought up the subject in her faux nonchalant way with “so like why did you and dad get a divorce” over ice cream, she saud “oh… oh…. oh…”. And a big smile spread across her face because it finally made sense.

          Thank you chumplady for the notion of “age appropriate truth.” Every stable parent’s right and every cheater’s fear.

          • Wow! My niece on ex’s side asked the same thing. “Why did you and Uncle ___ break up, was it over ice cream?” Ice cream must be a serious subject to young children.

            In that case my SIL immediately piped up and said “I told her the two of you weren’t getting along”. I didn’t elaborate in that case because she isn’t my child.

          • I like the “your dad got a girlfriend…” line. I will use that. Thanks!

            My kids aren’t doing well. They have a lit of anxiety and fear. I believe it comes from not knowing what happened, and this now sudden reality where living family just “disappeared” for unknown reasons” has really shook them.

            Next time she asks, I will have an age appropriate real truthful response ready.
            Thanks to all chumps who replied and gave their experiences, either being a chump or experiencing a chumped parent as a child. Really eye-opening.

            I love this site and grateful to all CN. THANK YOU!

          • How do you explain to your young kids, if you are heterosexual, ‘Your dad got a boyfriend?’

            • If you’re not ready for that additional conversation, I would stick with “your dad dated somebody else.”

              And I just wanted to add, since I’m considering having this conversation with my own kids aged 7 and 17 after filing for separation/divorce, that I will probably make it clear to them that there was not just extramarital dating, but that I was NOT told about it while it was happening. Maybe that’s implied, but I want my kids to understand that I never signaled that I was okay with any of this, and that I’m not okay with deception about something that significant. (Depending on what their other mother tells them about “mistakes,” etc., I might have to inform them – or at least my DD17 – that I was similarly deceived 14 years ago, too. That fact speaks to why I’m not willing to battle through it again this time, and that our agreements should have been clear before affair #2.)

              Again, if we tell our kids honest truths in age-appropriate ways, I think we need to be clear about what the major deal-breakers actually were, so that we can model healthy boundaries. And I totally agree that kids usually know more than we give them credit for, anyway. My DD7 has asked a couple of leading questions already, even though we haven’t yet had “the talk.” These questions are oblique, having to do with the musical “Hamilton,” rather than dealing directly with our family, so I have been able to answer in an honest, age-appropriate way already. When DD7 asked (before DDay #2) why Alexander’s wife Eliza is so distressed while singing “Burn,” I gave her exactly the line suggested above, that Alexander dated another woman while he was married to Eliza – and DD7 understood perfectly why Eliza would be distressed under those circumstances. Then, just a couple weeks after DDay #2, DD7 asked her other mother and me what we would do if one of us dated somebody else, like Alexander Hamilton did. Gulp! From the mouths of babes… So I suspect she already knows something. We were doing so much processing behind closed doors in the first few weeks after DDay #2 that DD7 might well have overheard something, and she’s a pretty sharp kid.

        • I have a 1.5 and 3.5 year old. When the 3.5 year old asks why daddy doesn’t live with us any more, I say “Daddy made a choice to leave our home because he wants to be with other ladies, but both mommy and daddy love you so much”. It seems to satisfy the question for her. She has asked my parents the same question and they give the same answer, and she seems satisfied with that.

          • WaitingforTuesday, can I make a suggestion? Don’t tell your young children that their daddy loves them so much. Speak for yourself. Learn to say “Mommy loves you so much and daddy will continue to be your daddy.” Or better yet, focus on reassuring them of your role in their lives and leave the sperm donor out of it.

            Men who love their children don’t abuse, cheat on, gaslight, and abandon their mothers. They don’t make the divorce process worse than need be. Also, you don’t control what his relationship will be with them, therefore you don’t want to paint an inaccurate picture.

            I realize it’s natural to want to reassure the kids both parents still love them, but it can be damaging in the end if one parent doesn’t live up to the expectation. Focus on yourself and your love and devotion to them. Leave his relationship with them up to him.

            I speak from the perspective of someone who was married 25 years before Dday. My 3 daughters are teens and young adults. I view it as my responsibility to model for them what is acceptable and not acceptable treatment. I see their dad continue to lie to them and it is they that he gaslights now. I point out to them his manipulations. And when he misspells my name and writes nasty notes on my support checks – I show them and say “this is what bullying and abuse looks like.” They also know I support their need to try to navigate some sort of relationship with him. All I can say is “I’m sorry your dad isn’t a better person, and I hope someday he can be the father to you that you need him to be.”

            Obviously, my approach is not appropriate for young children. All I suggest is that you don’t purport to know his feelings for your children. Don’t spackle for him.

            • Thank you, Calgal1! I really appreciate your comment, and I think that makes sense. I don’t always add in that last part, but I will make sure I make it more about how much mommy loves them, and leave that part up to him.

              My XH also tries to manipulate the kids. I have already started pointing out manipulative behavior to her, either when she does it or if she tells me something where someone else is doing it (like on a tv show or something) and I tell her how it is not okay to manipulate people. And then I just try to talk about feelings a lot and label things for them, and hug them when they are having a rough day.

              I really appreciate you sharing with me 🙂

            • This is the truth >>>>>”Men who love their children don’t abuse, cheat on, gaslight, and abandon their mothers. ”

              Before I even knew what gaslighting was. My ex gaslit our children right in front of me. I listened to him rewrite the history of our marriage to our children. I listened to him lie about me to our children. Men who love their children do not abuse them with lies and mess around with their minds. I will never ever forget what he did to my children. He’s a snake from the pit of hell. He doesn’t love our children. They are of use to him. They make him look good. Everything he does for them is for image management. He’s now all Disney Dad, but when we were a family, he was barely involved on a day to day basis. He doesn’t fool me anymore, but he sure has a ton of people fooled.

              • Yeah, I would not be able to tell my kids that their other mother loves them, straightforwardly, even though she dotes on them and they really rely on her. (That’s why I think they’ll be devastated when they learn the truth about what she’s done.) But, I’ve been learning a lot about narcissism lately, and it makes sense to me that she loves our kids as extensions of herself, and they are a form of supply for her – as I have been, and her lovers, etc. So, all her affection and closeness and effort put into parenting – I guess it’s a form of love, but it’s complicated, and I certainly wouldn’t use that word blithely to try to make my kids feel better about transitions in our family. Sadly, they’ll have to learn for themselves how to have a substantive relationship with their other mother.

                Then, there’s the abstract notion, with which I agree, that after a split, everybody gets to be responsible only for their own emotions. No more signing birthday cards to Great-Grandma with everybody’s names; no more trying to account for what ex-spouse has done or is doing. Just the facts, from our own perspectives, and if the kids have questions about the other side of the equation, they can ask. (That’s also teaching them great lessons about emotional accountability, vulnerability, and boundaries.)

            • I just say “even though we are not married any more he is still your dad”. I let the exhole manage his relationship with his son. If he wants his son to know “Daddy loves you very much” then he needs to say it and act like it.

        • I have older teen boys so keep that in mind when reading this. My therapist told me not to tell unless they asked. I was honest with them and told them that our marriage was in trouble (it was super obvious and my STBX moved into another room but refused to talk to them or me about it). I was super confused at the time so kept it short and sweet. STBX kept insisting that we didn’t need to speak to the boys even though it was super anxiety producing in the house. I did start talking a bit and asking them how they were doing. My STBX eventually said let’s have the talk and I had to do all the talking – he sat and stared at all of us.

          My kids were not happy with the information given – they wanted to know why. My son started to play detective and found a party stash of my husband’s and came to me. I was honest as the therapist said if they ask you tell. My kids were more pissed at my STBX for being so evasive than they were about the cheating. They had a talk with their Dad where he evaded some more and eventually said he hadn’t wanted to be married for a long time.

          My kids realize that he manipulates and avoids. I can speak about my feelings and my STBX can’t. I feel that my relationship with my kids is fairly healthy – his isn’t. My one son is still quite angry with his Dad (rightfully so).

          My personal advice is to tell your kids in an age appropriate way and as unemotionally as possible (coming from the woman who turned into a blubbering mess whose son’s hugged her as she cried). As my son said, “why do parents think we are stupid. Nothing pisses off a teenager more than something thinking they are stupid and not being honest with us.”

          Good luck!

          • After this week’s earlier post about psychologists, I’m even more convinced that a lot of therapists latch onto these notions to keep people in therapy. If we and our children are informed and have control leading to feeling stronger and better self worth, how much time will we need to spend in therapy? Abuse and fear grow in silence and lack of agency. This is where the bad therapists operate.

        • I wish I was told the truth by someone when I was 8 to 12 and things were happening.

          But there was only mendacity, secrets, and collusion.
          Among the family, circle of acquaintances, business partners of my father.
          And when something had come out, the puppetteers went underground, hid everything from sight, and left us -unbeknownst to us- to play a part on the stage they had set up.
          My mother was a foreigner in that country and had just lost her support in her home country.

          Needless to say, everything was lost. We ended up impoverished; depressed; and projected identification-suicidal (their wish for our death we introjected). They never stopped trying to murder us. My many attempts to get away were met with threats to the wellbeing of my mother and sister. A sort of liberation came with my father’s death.

          One year later I met my husband.

          I have been abandoned by him in this country of his after 16 years of knowing one another, 12 years of marriage, no children.

          Awaiting my divorce. And going back when all is taken care of.

          Seated here on my boxes, I wonder; I don’t know why and how exactly I am alive.

          • Periwinkle, you’re not starting over from scratch. You get to go forward with all of this knowledge and these hard lessons. You get to go build a life just for you. No one else determines your worth. It’s hard to be a good and kind person. That’s what all those users out there don’t understand, and they think it’s weakness. but it’s damn hard to stay soft and kind in this hard world. Don’t let them take that from you.

            You ARE HERE. You DO MATTER.

            You are here to show being good and honest in this rough world is not only possible but necessary. Bonus: THEY hate that.

            All my thoughts with you today.

          • So sorry for your pain, Periwinkle. Please keep coming here and sharing and venting. We care about you. You deserve so much better.


          • Because your life has meaning and purpose.
            And there are forces greater than that of the cheaters.
            I wish you well.

        • I was told the same by many professionals. Essentially for me the consequence of their recommendation was to take on half the blame and lie to the kids. I refused to lie to the kids. So the compromise I got was that if they ask direct questions, I can tell the truth. Luckily, my kids asked direct questions, so I told him, he cheated.

          There is research out there that kids do not like when they learn years later that they have been lied to. It can seriously damage the relationship with the kids in their teens, when they feel they cannot trust anyone and are not treated as a respected and valued member of the family.

          I also read somewhere that it is damaging to kids to learn that “love can just disappear”, because they will spend the rest of their lives wondering if someone will just fall out of love and leave them. Not the anxiety you want to instill in your kids.

          In most cases, the cheating is not coming out of nowhere: the cheater in almost all instances has devalued and discarded the spouse as an equal partner years or months preceeding DDay. Kids should never learn that the experienced partnership is a good one or acceptable in any way. They need to learn what a loving partnership is and that each partner is responsible to put in the energy and work it takes to make a partnership work.

          Kids need to hear the truth in age appropriate terms.

          • Exactly. Things don’t just happen out of the blue, there’re usually signs and red flags which we teach ourselves and our children to ignore.

            Also, vague statements like ‘mummy and daddy didn’t get along” are also very damaging. Do you want your child to get anxious each and every time you argue with your partner because the child thinks the parents aren’t getting along anymore?

        • Well, they could find out the way mine did. I lost my cool when I saw the charges for the valentines flowers for Schmoopie on our joint credit card and my daughter overheard me screaming at ex “I want back every penny you spent on other women”. I don’t recommend that method. It is interesting, however, that once she got confirmation that an affair had happened she knew exactly who it was. In my defense, I had tried to get ex to tell them the truth so that it wouldn’t come out in such an emotionally charged way, but he kept putting it off.

        • Coming from someone who had no idea Narucla aka Narkles the Porn Clown was cheating until about 20 years into the marriage, tell your kids in an age appropriate way. Now ex alienated my daughter, the older of the two, for years and then when we were officially separated, had no problem blowing through her boundaries as an adult and introducing her to then ow who was her age and whining about he wanted to be with yet another female in front of said ow on get this, fathers day. She gave the sperm donor one boundary as an adult and he blew through it. She feels tricked and used and is angry at me for reasons she has no idea as to why.

          Kids have a way of making themselves at fault. Ok, thats a Dr. Phil roughly quoted but its true. My kids, yes I call them my kids not our kids since ex told my son also now grown in a public place and in front of one of his friends I’m guessing so he wouldn’t deck the ex, that he no longer had a wife or family in this area, have had to deal with the emotional mess that the ex left. They need to know that its not love to protect someone who hurts you.

          On a positive note: My kids chose me. One calls ex by his first name now not dad and the other calls him the sperm donor. I tell them they are adults now and may want to have a relationship with the sd in the future but they will have to set their own boundaries. We have a great relationship now and yes, narcula continues to try to get them back but the truth has set them free.

        • Yes with daughter then aged 8. We agreed to do the mummy and daddy aren’t getting along. I can honestly barely talk about that it hurts me so badly having that conversation with her. But you don’t argue she said. I thought this was best. Didn’t know about cheating then quickly found out. I was a hot mess, my partner in our house still in front of me telling daughter not to worry he was on his recovery and no more Mr Grumpy Toad and basically stood next to me saying that now our relationship over things were on the up. I felt deeply unhappy and talked to therapist how do you explain a man walking round like the cat that got the cream and a woman lying on the floor saying she wished she was dead. I m ew it was wrong nome of it made sense. I asked my counsellor who I trust a lot and she said I could give age appropriate truth which I did. Something had to be said it was all too weird and nothing made sense. I didn’t say what I thought about him that just what he had done was really unkind and hurtful and that is why mummy is upset. He still loves you, I still love you you haven’t done ANYTHING to cause this. Largely then said nothing but something bad happened recently and I was hysterical and I told her what had happened and she was furious with him but not as furious as he was with me. Sent her a text saying she should not be dragged into these conversations. Ah not what he does my reaction to it the problem of course. I will shield her from most of it but not to the point my behaviour makes no sense whatsoever. Also they hve some a right number on her with OW texting her saying ‘Don’t worry dolly everything is going to be all right, we all love you’. Which you can imagine is so completely galling. I say don’t cover it up entirely and I got help on what might be appropriate for her age and was very careful. She is a bit young to understand and also doesn’t really want to understand and probably get it more than we realise but then has issues with loyalty bonds. I don’t regret telling her one bit.

        • The counselor who has worked with me and the kids for the past few years told me that if my kids asked, I should tell them the truth. She said that if I lied, and the kids found out the truth, they might end up feeling like they couldn’t trust either me or the cheater. So, one day, my eldest asked if our divorce had something to do with the OW. I told him yes, and I have answered their questions truthfully ever since.

          However, I did not tell them that they met on Ashley Madison and that their secret dates involved unprotected sex. The kids know that they met online and that they were dating behind my back. I’m sure that my older two have put two and two together about the sex. So, I have been honest without being explicit or going into character assassination, much as the ex-cheater and his cheating partner deserve it.

          To be honest, it was one of the best decisions I made about the whole mess. The kids only became anxious when I told them that we were having “grown-up problems” (they were in elementary and preschool at the time). They wanted to know what these “grown-up problems” were and would press me time and again to explain what that meant. Learning that “Dad broke the promises of our marriage by secretly dating Lady Sad Sack” provided them with an answer, and I think it also reassured them that “grown-up problems” wasn’t code for “You kids are the reason.”

          Tell your kids the truth. Be direct and honest without giving the lewd details or calling names. If there’s anything that we should do “for the children” aside from leaving the cheater, it’s telling them the truth about why the marriage had to end.

        • I believe it is best to tell what happened but in a non-judgmental way. Otherwise you are in essence lying to your children from your own hearts perspective. That’s why it feels off.

          I have a good relationship with my son, who was 12 at the time and believe not telling him would have damaged that. I told him that his father has chosen to be with someone else. I wanted us to stay married but he continued to be with her, and that is not a marriage, so we have to get divorced. We both love you the same and agree on what is best for you. It has nothing to do with you.

          After that I only speak well of his dad in a matter of fact way. “That’s great you both went to bla bla”. It’s exciting you got to do such and such with him—–

          So far so good—— He’s 15 now and doing well.

          Good luck, it’s a tough one with so many different opinions. You will decide what is best in your situation.

          • I hadn’t read that tweens and teens and young adults through 25 plus need the honest truth. They are hyper aware of moods and what is going on in the home. Their family status is important in their social status…richer is nicer clothes and car and love interests among their peers. Family breakups means their college and future and stability is at stake. A lying parent is one who doesn’t respect the teenager as mature enough to handle any truth. Teenagers don’t want to be protected like little babies. They have a lot of their own life riding on the stability of the family as they make their leap into adulthood.

            • I had read that tweens and teens and young adults through 25 plus need the honest truth…

        • I have five kids and the youngest was 10 at the time. Given that my ex chose in a rare moment of honesty to tell the older kids and given the fact that the whole house exploded, I told my 10 year old. However, I kept it age-appropriate. He hadn’t had the sex talk yet, so I kept it very simple. Mostly he knows that his dad was dishonest—and that Mom did not want to live with someone who lied to her. However my ex moved in with Schmoopie a year before the divorce was final, and then introduced her to the kids the day after we the divorcecwas final. I think he still is kind of baffled and confused by it all. He’s also really withdrawn from his dad- wants nothing much to do with him….

          I definitely recommend telling him in an age appropriate way.

        • My triplet sons were in their 30s when my XH discarded me to be with Married Howorker.

          He told them, “Mom and I had a difference of opinion” (presumably about the value of fucking other women), and when they pressed him for more details, he continually stonewalled with, “This issue is between your mother and me”.

          Naturally, they asked me, and because I maintain a policy of truth and transparency with my children — and they were grown men — I told them EVERYTHING in a factual, non-editorialized fashion. As earnest, well-balanced young men establishing their own marriages and families, I wanted them to understand just how fast and how far even a lifelong marriage like ours can go off the rails when disrespect, devaluation and dishonesty come into play. Thankfully, they “get it” and seem much more aware and vigilant than other men their age (35) might be.

        • I told my 8 year old at the time. He cried. But every time he brought it up since then (now 11) and asked why can’t we be friends and do stuff together, I simply say “because I can’t be friends with lyers and people who hurt me and neither should you.” Now that does not mean this is affecting his relationship with his dad because he likes doing stuff together with him. But I hope that his sense of worth and self value would develop to the point where, when recognizing a lie or deliberate hurt, he would not stick to the other person, whether it’s a friend, partner, colleague, in hopes of getting to a mutual understanding (essentially pick-me-dancing) but rather stop that relationship altogether.

          And yes, I find that telling the truth was devastating but ultimately the right thing to do. We underestimate our children’s intuition but they feel things going wrong even when they don’t or can’t express much. In the couple of years leaing to DDay I was anxious because of cheater’s avoidant responses to my straight questions, gaslighting and such. My son sensed this electrical current at home and once in a while would ask me, cheater or his grandparents if we were going to divorce. “Mom, I have a feeling you and dad will divorce” or “Mom, where would I live if you and Dad divorce?” – this started when he was 6 years old. I recall being genuinely surprised he even knew what it meant. Of course at the time I did everything to reassure him that divorce will NEVER happen because we loved each other.

          Now sometimes he comes to me with more specific and grown up questions asking me about my feelings, if I fell out of love as soon as I discovered etc. I tell him I continued loving his father, I tried to reconcile, but I discovered it was wrong. I tell him if a person is capable of knowingly hurting another one, then you should not be around that person or you will continue getting hurt.

          Ultimately, I think the truth is much better than gaslighting our own children, no matter how it hurts initially. I don’t editorialize, but I say and maintain the truth. “I would have never divorced your father if he had not been cheating for our entire marriage.”

        • My kids were 14 and 17 ….i didny use their cheater dads narative….i was telling the truth from the start … we didnt know at first he was cheating ….that came later ….so i said ….your dad wants to leave to be on his own for a while ….it sounded lame right from the time he said it to me. My son being the clever boy he is got onto our family computer and found evidence of his dads cheating and deceipt ….he called me to have a look ….it all went down hill for dad from there.
          Dad ended up marrying his affair partner….but our kids would never accept her …though they tolerated her…the same went for their dads family ….within 3 years their relationship was over with her having been arrested being drunk smashing up their home ….i d also heard from his family she had 2 domestic violence charges on her….from her previous husband and my kids dad ….i did see him come over with a black eye …..appears that the grass isnt greener on the other side.
          I m remarried and have moved on….but i do like to come in here sometimes to tell others that it does get better….but i think the truth should be told….age appropriate of course.

  • My Lord. I am actually shocked that just any acquaintance would send this to someone! You got me. I can only say to document document and send to his management.

  • Sorry for the technical troubles. The whole post is up now.

  • Ah, it’s just [chef kiss] perfect!

    Him: “I’m so miserable and terrible and oh how you must hate me! I’ll do anything!”

    Her: “Great! Here’s what you do.”

    Him: “Ah. Right. Well. You see… well. I would, but you know… things? Oh please don’t tell anyone! Think of my wife! Think of my job! Think of how horrible it would be for me to have to take responsibility for what happened!”

    His later bit where he pretends that he doesn’t know how to delete his twitter is also gold. It’s like he’s gotten so used to bullshitting his wife that he thought he could bullshit anyone like that. Unfortunately he forgot other people don’t have his wife’s personal interest in his well-being or motivation to spackle.

    Buh-bye now.

    • “he forgot other people don’t have his wife’s personal interest in his well-being or motivation to spackle.”

      It boggles the mind that he would think that, doesn’t it? I hope his wife starts tearing down walls of sparkle. No matter what else, no more spackling.

    • Reminds me of – if you tell anybody the daddy/ mummy/ grandpa is abusing you, they’ll put me in prison, you all won’t have anything to eat and it’ll be all your fault.

    • This. I can’t tell you how many times my ex has said “tell me what I can do to make amends.” I provide specific action items, and then one of the following occurs:
      1- he agrees and then there is no follow-up on his part
      2- he agrees and then gives a lame, half-ass effort that comes no where near the actual request
      3 he argues “you are asking too much” or “you are being unreasonable” or “don’t tell me what to do”

      If I dare to ask “hey where’s that thing you promised to do” I get a blame shifting, evasive answer. If I say, “hey this effort is kind of lame, and here’s why,” I get told that I am attacking him, too judgmental, that nothing is ever good enough, etc. If I argue back “you specifically asked for things you could do – here is a thing – are you saying you are not willing to do it?” it’s just leads to another circular argument.

      I’m learning the whole scenario is a giant trap. They don’t want to take accountability or make amends, they just want us to think that they do.

      • Yes! I started taking notes early on in the process.

        My cheater wife wanted to run me in circles, act super perfect, and hope I’d get tired of pursuing the truth. Tired of seeking and finding my real Reality? Once I knew I was living in a play’s “scene”?

        How could a person stay sane, knowing that and doing nothing? I try to eliminate marriage problems, not ignore them.

      • At least he was the one with the “to do” list. So often it is the betrayed spouse who ends up with the “to do” list in order to keep their marvelous cheater from running off chasing rainbows only to be told “to little too late” in the end anyway.

      • And this is why divorce is your friend. If they can’t stop the lying, gas lighting and blameshifting there’s nothing left for you to work with.

        • Alloutofkibble,
          Thank you for this comment. I’m pasting it into a electronic note of inspirational words I keep ready whenever I need a pep talk.

          So many Switzerland friends have given me the “well, maybe you could work it out” talk.

          I know my truth. He can never stop lying gaslighting and deceiving. He’s never stopped, not through MC, wreckonciliation, and even during separation. This is why I cant “work it out”. There is nothing to work with here.

          • Thanks, All Out,

            It helps to be reminded that you don’t have anything to work with if the partner continuously lies, gaslights, abuses without remorse.

            On the anniversary of my marriage to my abusive ex-husband, my ex-husband in email with our divorce case number and ‘pro per’ in the signature block, threatened to take me to Court (for the umpteenth time), after I wished him a Happy (Would Have Been) Anniversary (not in a sarcastic way). He could have just told me that he thought that there was a mistake in a transaction related to the kids and calmly ask me to check/fix it. Instead, he chose the nuclear option. (Why hit a fly with a fly swatter when you can use an atomic bomb?) Nothing to work with. Life with the psychologically very disordered.

      • MehBeSoon,

        The whole “Just tell me what I can do to make amends” line is nothing but a stall tactic, and when you hold them accountable for the lack of followthrough, it suddenly becomes your fault.

        So perhaps a better answer to that lame question — repeatedly asked by the offender and then purposefully sidelined by same — would be, “Nothing. There’s nothing you can do to make amends. We’re done.”

        Of course, they’ll switch from their Pity or Charm channel to Rage, and you’ll be labeled as an unfeeling, unforgiving, and ungrateful person who won’t grant them another chance (again). But at least that dysfunctional fuckwit won’t have any more opportunities to take shameless advantage of you.

  • I am in the process of divorcing my very own Fuckwit and was contacted by an old “friend”. After chatting for a while about nothing much he felt it was ok to write to me about waking up early and having a “naughty dream”. Fuck no! Block and move on.

  • I don’t understand the cum on your face thing at all. Even if she were open to his approach, how would she even respond to that? It’s such an awkward opening. What the heck?

    • Right?!?!?!?

      I guess if the guy is the kind of entitled, self-promoting jerk who would do this at all, then it follows that the guy would assume that any woman would want a wad of his mucus on her face, and/or that it wouldn’t matter if she wanted that or not, because she would owe it to him, because he’s him.


      • Rapey is right.
        After two decades with someone who vowed to love/honor/cherish me but really just wanted to use me as a tissue like you described, I’m so glad to now be part of a community that says hell no to the abuse of people as mere objects for sexual gratification. It’s not a big leap from this act to other acts of disrespect and abuse for these entitled, rapey creeps.

        • It makes me wonder if these men do nothing but watch porn all day and get it into their sick heads that women are just objects/tissues that can be used and abused at these perv’s will.

        • Exactly.

          These women and men Never respected us. We were always accessories and people with a “use”.

          You are a thing in their world. A non-player character in their life video game.

    • I saw a text exchange between my cheater and her 20 something boy toy. He spoke of how he was going to cum on her face. Next day she was at his house. I guess it works in some cases!

      • It’s little different from my point because they already knew that they knew and liked each other.

        That doesn’t make it one iota less gross.

        I wonder, if he sneezed a big gloopy booger onto her face, would she beg him to marry her?

        I joke sarcastically here — but seriously, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. Reading that must have been a huge sucker punch. I empathize.

        I hope your cheater is staring at your taillights, Friend. You deserve so much better.

        • Amiisfree!!! Funny big sloppy bugger! Yep she probably would have said I do!

      • I do this nasty stuff for my husband to keep him happy even though he cheats on me because it’s the only way to get any type of time and attention from him. I hate, and I mean hate doing all the awful sexual acts he manipulatesaid me to do but I love him so much. It’s messed up. Going on 19 years of marriage. We are very financially secure and I see what type of men who have less means then us are no better, so I stay. It’s awful.

        • Laura, that’s not love. That’s an unhealthy blend of materialism, obsession, and trauma bonding.

          You choose to stay because he’s rich. You would rather be rich than have self-respect. Your choice.

          I’m not sure why you’re here? Because you seem to be pretty much answering your own questions.

          • That’s a cruel thing to say… Sometimes it’s hard to picture being with anyone else. Also, even the male chumps here admit that they go for younger when they divorce. The singles scene isn’t pretty for middle aged women who want exclusivity. Maybe she feels like better the devil you know. I hope both she and I can move past that :-/

            • KT,

              I agree there’s no need for cruelty. Also, it takes some of us longer to leave. I’d guess if we surveyed all the chumps here they’d admit they all stayed longer than they should have. And having been without it, I know that financial security is nothing to sneer at. But it isn’t really secure is it? He may be draining things unbeknownst, or, playing fast and loose with credit. I found out about a lot of financial abuse and infidelity as well once I left. There is more long term security when you are in control of your life. And I won’t lie dating when I was in my forties was tough. You are right lots of men want younger. But not all, don’t tell yourself there’s no chance. There is. I hope both you and Laura find the strength to live cheater free. It is hard, but it is also worth it. No matter what else you do, please keep coming here and reading. Please know we all support you and hope to supplement your strength until you can do it on your own. We are here for you.

        • Being alone with half the financial security and all the peace of mind will be better than staying with half the financial security and all the disrespect and abuse. After having gotten away from a man who thought all women were just things (not people) who were put on this planet to facilitate his orgasms, I can tell you I’d rather live in a cardboard box under a bridge than with a man used me in such ways. Not ever again. And all men are NOT like this. There are many caring decent men out there. I know because I found one. In middle age. As a single mom. With nothing to my name but debt and bad memories. You’re a good person that deserves respect and love. Someone else is out there who is willing to give that to you. And even in a worst case scenario where no other partner is there who will give you respect and love—you can give it to yourself—start by leaving this awful person.

          • Ooooh!

            Is what I internally quietly um squealed when I read that from you for her. And I don’t do that ever. So spot on.

          • Your newer guy got an awesome you, Jojobee.

            Giving Laura and others hope here is very good (for many reasons, of course, but also) because things are not as they seem in society.

            This is odd from me for Laura, but helpful, I think.

            People say whatever and we don’t hear the full story unless we search for it, like with political activist style theatrical “news”. They are telling you one of the five things you should know, and maybe only half of that one thing.

            Was literally everyone in the broadcast just now “emotionally overwhelmed”? All in the exact same amount? Hmm. Theatre.

            If you want to avoid being misled, look for the whole story, and in mature women’s case for modern dating, it is a good story.

            I was born in 1969, so I’m 50 this year. People DO NOT AGE THE SAME as they did last century. I myself have stayed active and am in shape like when I was 30. “Older” than some number is nothing.

            Instead of finding a place to slowly die over the next 20 years, I’m middling out to just being adult me and staying there. My cheater wife is older than me.

            The female form is great in its simple amazingness, and mature women are often hot but think themselves out of it.

            Younger men are man-children in greater numbers now than ever, and you could enjoy the physical and emotional benefits of one, while you instruct him. One thought.

            Some chump men certainly Will “go younger”, since we have the same fashion and entertainment industry telling us that would be treating ourselves or something, as it then tells womanly-looking women that those attractive curves, and that big beautiful derriere, are too much, or similar nonsense. Whatever!

            I myself am thinking of having the family my child-hating (if I’m being honest) cheater wife would not want. We’ll see what I decide, but with the money and a committed self, it’s an option. Full disclosure.

            Did someone Say something? So? What else is true about that though?

            Men are ignoring being told to want twigs. People are ignoring politicians that say they want to ruin all they can, but it’s in the name of niceness.

            Ignore the naysayers thoughts from within you. Women who are mature aged, now, men are starting to just see as women, no matter who tells us to think what.

            Want to see if I’m blowing smoke… somewhere? Search for fantasized “mother/stepmother-son” porn. No, it doesn’t matter if you usually would. This is for your life betterment, and for Science.

            You will find it is everywhere now.

            As soon as men of any age got exposed to the idea as adults, many many were quietly hooked on the idea. Why would that make any sense? Well, you will also find some men anonymously being vocal about something we never tell women. Never.

            Modern era, and since this is for Chump Nation Science, we might as well tell you though.

            I have never, never known a heterosexual man who did not have his own mother as an early crush. We think it will sound weird to you, but I’m sure its commonality is why God made sure to mention Not pursuing one’s mother, in the Bible.


            By having it so that great nurturing love from a much more mature woman is there and easy to confuse with strong love of any sort, God sets things up to where men have a positive romantic love, and even sexual attraction to our
            more mature wives later, already built in.

            The mother-son thing though. Right.

            You see, the age of the male doesn’t matter, for the sake of the fantasy, from a guy’s point of view. Get around good friends from high school and college, and you find that everyone is however, but still you all are “just you”, really.

            We are just us, on the inside, our earlier us who has now had these life experiences.

            So, there You have it. Men of all ages fantasize about Mature, “MILF” if you will, or “older” women a lot, right now, not someday.

            Men of all ages are choices for you, and many of them, like you, are good enough people who want a loving partnership.I

            Laura, I say get proof of his infidelity, gathered nicely and silently. Get a bulldog lawyer a wealthy divorced friend recommends. Take a large amount of your and your husband’s money for yourself. Find what you enjoy in Life and follow it.

            Alone and free is good. My Mother loved the heck out of it.I

            With someone who loves you and thinks you are the bomb? There are great, and possible things for you if you want them, about that as well.

        • Laura
          Your definitely on the wrong site! No offense but here at CN we teach how to live a cheater free life without all the demeaning & humiliation that cheaters give us. Your lowering yourself just because he’s wealthy? Your self respect is at its lowest & you intend to live like that?
          I was married for 34 years to the love of my life .. he cheated on me & knowing full well I’d be financially strapped, I threw him out & divorced
          him. Broke my heart but I got back my self esteem & realized I’d rather be alone & financially hurt than being treated on with an abuser. I’m worth more than that!
          Life is too short to accept being treated like garbage. Your choice., very sad ????

        • What makes you think doing all of that “stuff” is going to keep him around anyway? He doesn’t love you or he wouldn’t ask those things of you. Eventually, he will leave you with the excuse that you obviously didn’t love those things so you didn’t love him and Schmoopie over here just loves to “take care of him” the way he likes so bye. He will discard you without a second thought and cast the blame on you on his way out the door. You are not the one in control here and you can’t control anything by being a doormat. The only thing you can control is the timing of your divorce. Get your ducks in a row and leave before he does. It will give you an edge in the divorce process if you are the one who is prepared. Also, once you have some distance between you that “love” will dry up once you are no longer in his orbit of influence and you are able to think straight.

        • What I hear in subtext from you, Laura, is a person exploring other ways to think, be, and live.

          You are in a life “like this”. What do other people do? How do they handle things?

          You see only one way, for now, but you see other people, perhaps doing better as people. You observe and talk with them. All of this is good.

          I think people fear the part of them who once thought, to whatever degree, the way you seem to, now. For your sake, I ask that you pursue this thinking others display. See the thinking behind it.

          You can unravel your own bonds.

          *As an aside, I have to say that in my marriage, when there was no problem, I would gladly have her sexual -anything- going on with my face.

          For that matter, a soapy finger ahead of time, and I would gladly make out with something else of hers, nearby such area in question, for a long time, engineering getting air as I could.

          YOU, however, are not loving it and just rolling in the pheromones of one you think of as a living partner. There’s nothing wrong with being animals together with each other, but for you, the good version of this is not the case.

          Keep reading. Keep finding your new way to be.

          You know, I hear that if you get good proof of your husband’s infidelity, you can take his money and just love your life.

        • I hear intense fear in your words You matter and you are worth more. Terrifying as it is, healthy singleness is loads better than toxic coupleness.

          The money/comfort is an easy justification, but the thing that’s really missing in you, in my opinion, is a view of yourself as a person who deserves to be treated well.

          I implore you to seek the help you need to see yourself as worthy of more. Also, watch as much Brene Brown as you can smash into your brain to get started. Also, watch the Embrace documentary. Also, try to find places where your soul can rest.

          You’re a victim of sexual assault. Eventually you will see that clearly. What you are tolerating has destroyed the real you, but it’s not permanent. Or, at least, it doesn’t have to be.

          Maybe try EMDR?

        • You’re being sexually and emotionally abused. If that is acceptable to you because of his money, think about that for a minute. He is treating you as a whore.

          • Laura,
            I feel really bad for you. Like you, I was attached to some very wealthy, successful men who felt entitled to use and abuse others they did not value. Life is tough as a mostly unemployed divorced middle-aged mother, but trying to hang on, waiting for my abusers to discard me for the last time, just added to the damage.

        • One day, Laura, it may not be your choice. He can divorce you, steal your marital assets, empty the 401k, or change the locks at any time.

          Make your plans and never suffer violence or violation again. My fingers are crossed that you live in a Community Property state.

      • I hope you are now at a place where you can laugh at how pathetic your ex is for actually responding positively to such a thing. Good riddance. I hope you find a decent woman who has some self respect and chooses you because she has high standards and you are the one who is good enough for her.

        • In my 52 years of life, I have never once thought using the words “I’m going to cum on your face” as a pick up line. As I stated above, it did appear to work! That was over 4 years ago….. was actually a good thing to read. From that point on I could not look at her face without that visual hitting me.

      • If she prefers some creep who objectifies and degrades women to the point that “facials” are a regular part of their sexual repetoire, she’s got more problems than just being a cheater. I have a theory about cheaters; they secretly think sex is inherently dirty, thus they can only really enjoy sex that is degrading and/or forbidden. Sex with a spouse doesn’t fit into their disordered sexuality, so it will never satisfy them.
        My ex, for example, actually preferred his schmoopie over me because she was promiscuous and even cheated on him. Even though she was a gross pig and didn’t even have sex with him, she was still sexier in his sick mind because she was “dirty” and I wasn’t. Classic madonna whore complex.

        • Makes sense. Add in no protection devices. 15 years younger than her. Definitely forbidden risky sex. In essence, he treated her like a cum dumpster. Excuse the French but it’s the only words that express the truth! Spent many a hour trying to make sense of it. Turns out I could not. Actually spoke to the boy. He basically said well she was easy and would show up when I called. It is odd what people will throw 20 years away for!

          • Yep, no condoms is a cheater classic. Stats show 66% don’t use them. Mine didn’t and gave me HPV. I assume you were tested for STDs, but there’s no male test for HPV, so you need to insist that she gets tested for it. Also make sure they can tell her if it’s a carcinogenic strain. Don’t take her word, you need to see the lab report.
            They’ll.throw away spouses, kids, jobs, whatever, all for the chance to live out their twisted sexual fantasies and juvenile romantic delusions.
            Disgusting pigs, the lot of them.

    • The verbal equivalent of a dick pic–not alluring in the slightest.

  • Bravo to Talia Jane for doing what so many want to do but fear consequences. So many spouses find it necessary to be silent in order to protect their kids, finances, etc. The beauty of a potential OW turning a cheater on his head is delicious.

    I’m not sure the scumbag is lying when he says the cum message was for someone else – it does seem escalated & random, and we all know douchebags like him will have multiple chats going at once. But WTF does it matter ? Clearly wasn’t meant for his wife, soooo…. Tomato/ToMAHto.
    I’m sure the investigation will uncover much more bad behavior. Let the Chips fall.

    • Yeah, but he left 2 “nice guy” messages first, and she ignored them. Given that, it seems probable that he got pissed at being ignored and decided to tell her he jerked off to a picture of her. Plus the “I’m miserable and shouldn’t take it out on you” sorta implies he did it on purpose.

      • Ooohhh. I didn’t get that he jacked off to her pic. It makes sense now!

      • Oh he definitely did that on purpose. He saw she ignored the first two messages so he threw in a much more attention grabbing (re: desperate) grab for a response, and didn’t get the one he wanted.

        The pathetic attempt at the “that wasn’t meant for you” backpedal isn’t an uncommon tactic of creeps either. What they expect from that is this:

        Creep:”-says gross, creepy thing-”
        Woman: “No, that’s gross and creepy.”
        Creep: “Oh no!” (falls upon fainting couch) “How could I have made such a mistake! This was intended for another person, could you ever forgive my grievous error!”
        Woman: “Oh of course, how could I be angry! ‘Twas but a mere lapse in finger dexterity.”
        Creep: “Well…now that you’ve seen it…”
        Woman: “Oh yes, please, now I have had a hint of your obvious sexual prowess you MUST ravage me for I shall never be satisfied without knowing the fullness of your carnal desires!”

        Ok a bit exaggerated there, but for real this is what they expect. It’s the “Oh shit she didn’t like that, I’ll pretend it was for someone else, but she’ll totally want it once the hint is out there” attempt. And clearly, she called him out on that too because she can pay attention to a damn time stamp.

        The fact he immediately switched to the “Woe is me!!!” so quickly is also an obvious tell that he did it on purpose. If he really did it on accident he would have stuck to that. And then he begged for her to keep silent because of what his wife would think. So one way or another, even if that message was meant for someone else, it wouldn’t be his wife. So that wouldn’t be any better for him because it would mean he’s creeping on multiple people behind her back.

        I hope he does get fired. This is the shit people should get fired over.

    • I agree, whether it was intended for her or not is a moot point. Either way he is a creep who needed to be outed. The only real difference is that if he was deliberately harassing her that is two crimes instead of just the one crime of cheating on his wife. Either way he is a douche. “that was intended for someone else” doesn’t let him off the hook true or not.

  • This is a good example of boundaries and a proud moment for me as a person who has dealt with inappropriate gestures and comments my entire life. It is a catch 22. If you don’t go along with it, you are a spoil-sport or a b*. If you don’t object, you usually get many more comments, sometimes too close interactions that make you squirm. My defense became a perfectly executed stink eye.

    This is a better solution.

    I really hate to say this, because it feels like blaming the victim, but I know now that it is on the target’s side to enforce boundaries and speak up appropriately.
    I am afraid entitlement and abuse of power has always been part of the dialog. The victim having the support and platform to publicly enforce boundaries has not.

    • Hehe! I like that stink-eye solution.

      Intentionally bobbling things to stymie them and making awkwardness for them to shut up within or nicely work their way of of, is what I’ve done with female aggressors in the past, but direct is great.

      People have to set boundaries solidly and enforce them, because just like roaches, the predator people are always seeking a crack in your defenses, some leeway they can exploit. Expansion of territory.

      “No. You stop right There. ” Good stuff

  • Sucks to be his wife (or kids, if they have any) today—and for a long while. I hope this really public dday (with all the attendant pain, shock, and humiation that we all know so well) is the beginning of her freedom from life with this idiot. Run towards the light!

  • Talia Jane is now being attacked on Twitter (of course) the gist of which is “you humorless bitch, you put someone’s job in jeopardy and ruined his life, and oh you should be flattered if a man wants to jack off to your picture.” It’s seriously bizarre.

    Almost as if society sets it up so women are always wrong. Call it out, and you’re a humorless life-ruiner. Ignore it, and it comes out at say, someone’s Supreme Court nomination hearing, and it obviously wasn’t that terrible if you didn’t speak out at the time.

    • Spot on AF.

      It isn’t flattering if a person you don’t know and/or like wants to masturbate to your image, a fantasy of you, etc. It’s objectifying and demeaning and boundary-violating. It makes you a thing the person is using for their own desire regardless of what you want or desire.

      But the jerks who would make this comment would never see that. Because they are objectifying jerks who can only see themselves.

      Consider the source.

      • I agree. It is boundary violating and demeaning. On Monday I posted a selfie in my car to my Instagram Stories. It was nothing spectacular. Just a smiling selfie that said “Happy Monday”. No cleavage showing, nothing to solicate a comment.

        What I received back was a dm from a friend I went to high school with that said “I’m saving this picture for later”. I didn’t even respond I was too disgusted. I knew exactly what he meant.

    • She has been at the center of controversy before. Some will probably invoke that, too, but if this journalist had any clue, he would already have known that she is not afraid to go public with her grievances or with the details of her life. He finally chose the wrong person. (Seems highly likely that this was not his first go at harassment.)

    • Remember that they are many loser Incels online living in their parent’s basement working minimum wage loser jobs and hating women because they won’t go out with them because they are creepy and weird.

      The majority of these comments are coming from these losers. Anyone with half a brain knows that no woman wants a dick pick or sexual comment from a stranger ! Anyone who thinks that is OK is either an Incel who has never been with women or has serious “issues” like this moron reporter.

    • Blame the victim is big.

      Look at former president Bill Clinton’s hounding of women, sometimes out of the country; the Ted Kennedy-esque exposing of himself to a subordinate privately; and for goodness sake, the punching and rape of Juanita Broddrick. Any of the women he attacked were attacked more by many others, who wanted them to shut up and take it.

      THAT was politics, desperately trying to protect “their guy”, but there are big reasons this happens easily anyway.

      One of them is, people do not Want to think it can happen. Then, it can happen to Them, too. Just like Chumplady was saying one or more times about people blaming the betrayed spouse.

      “YOU must have messed up somehow, because that doesn’t just happen to people.”

      Just like thinking that casting couch sexual bullying and bribery was all a thing of the long past in Hollywood.

      Nope. People just wanted to think so. It would make sense of they ditched it long ago, but does that mean they Did?

      Thinking like this helps get people through the day without worry, but it is the deluding of oneself. Squint at it until you see the truth.

      Put all the blame on the victimizers and show people why it goes there.

      • I get suspicious when people bring up Clinton’s alleged misdeeds of decades past yet fail to mention the far more timely and relevant allegations against the present POTUS and the many death threats against his alleged victims.

        • Politicians across both parties have their share of trash. Coincides with the overall fact we no longer have any real laws against a adultery. In today’s world with all kinds of serious disease, there should be a legal price to pay!

          • I agree. No fault divorce is bullshit. The only way to protect yourself is a pre-nup that states you get a greater amount of the assets in the event infidelity can be proven.
            I asked my cheater, just as a test, if he would sign such a document saying I would get 60% of his income if he cheated. He hemmed and hawed about it and tried to evade answering. Epic fail, just as I expected.

        • And I am suspicious of those who police other’s choices of cheater examples. There are enough famous adulterers, throughout time and place, that insisting we may only use those who are “officially sanctioned” for discussion seems bizarre, to put it kindly. Me? I don’t care if commenters here use Gianni Agnelli, Tiger Woods, Catherine the Great Wendell Wilkie, Tori Spelling, Nelson Mandela or Prince Charles when trying to illustrate some point about adultery. If mentioning ANY famous cheater helps you better understand and tell your story, go for it!

        • Suspicious? Both Prez’s are abhorrent in that department. If someone wants to bring up either one, or both (or any other slimeball politicians)I think we should focus on the point, not the politics. We’re all friends here.

  • Speaking of sleazy cheater journalists, I found out yesterday that DAVID BROOKS SLIMED MY TOWN WHEN HE CAME TO SPEAK AT OUR LOCAL BOOKSTORE!!!! I am SO bummed that I missed my chance to call him a lying cheating sleazebag hypocrite to his face.

    Petaluma, California needs to be tented and fumigated followed by crop-dusters spraying Lysol.

    I was talking with a woman yesterday in town who told me about his appearance and mentioned how brilliant he was. I was at least able to give her the backstory and put in my two cents for changing the cheater narrative.

    There are a few local families who have tumbled dramatically from their on-high social positions for getting caught red-handed in the Varsity Blues scandal. One, Bill McGlashan, has been fired fires fired. Good good good.

    CHARACTER MATTERS. And good for Talia Jane for her excellent creep exposure work!

  • The whole thing is just gobsmacked. It seems odd that this conversation took place in the middle of the night, unless they were just both light sleepers. He’s just freaking creepy and I don’t why she just didn’t back away. As soon as he started in with the cum thing, I would have been out of there.

  • So wish ALL cheaters could get it where it hurts like this idiot. Wish society would string ‘em up and splatter their sins all over the Web to force some accountability. However, there is something sweet standing on Talia’s side and watching her put him in his place. Made my day!

  • I deal with this sort of thing EVERYDAY. No joke. I used to handle it passive aggressively, because in my mind I know I would never in a million years let a man who speaks like that to me after knowing me for 2 seconds TOUCH ME. So I would say something to fend off the predator nicely and go about my business hoping not to have an interaction with him again.

    Not anymore. You want to talk to me in a way that you would NEVER speak to your Mama, then I am going to call you out on your shit. This is why I HATE the porn industry. It has desensitized men into thinking that all women ENJOY being called names or spoken to in such a vile manner.

    I am so sick of pervy men. That is why I haven’t started dating and I have been divorced a solid year. I haven’t met a man yet that the conversation doesn’t go downhill after a solid 10 minutes. Dude, jack off every morning if your horny, but leave us women ALONE. If I didn’t ask for it, I don’t want it.

    • Rose, there are good men out there but they are hard to find.
      Remember that most of the cheaters everyone on CL divorced almost ALL have accounts on the dating sites. There are some real pigs on there — every woman I know that has been on there have gotten dick picks and sexual notes.
      Still there are good men out there but you are going to have to kiss a bunch of frogs before you find your prince.

    • I don’t think you can blame porn for this. He didn’t say that to her because he thought she’d like it. He said it to her because he was angry she ignored his first two flirtatious posts and wanted to let her know that even if she ignored him, he could still do something like jack off on her picture – thereby getting some sort of sexual gratification from her, whether or not she consented.

      • Thats not how I took it, but to each their own. I hear “I would love to cum on your face or your tits” all the time. He tried it as a severely stupid pick up line. He wanted a response and a reaction from her…just not the one he ultimately got.

        Some women liked to be talked to like that, just not the majority.

        • It’s not a pick-up line to boast that you just masturbated on a woman’s photo. He was clearly trying to humiliate her. No man with an IQ above room temperature thinks that would actually work as a pick-up line.

          There may be some women who enjoy that kind of talk as part of *consensual* sexual interaction, but this was no such thing.

          • Like I said, to each their own. I know men use it in the course of a conversation thinking it will work to get a woman aroused. I know this because it has happened to me on several occasions. A couple of times from men I started to date and a few times from men like Talia encountered where they didn’t know me from Adam. Perhaps it was used on her to humiliate her, but I am not one to get humiliate from dirty talk. I don’t humiliate easy. Maybe my threshold is higher than others. BUT DON’T TELL ME HOW TO THINK. It is and can be used by dumbass men who THINK it could possible work to sexually arouse a woman into sex.

            I am getting sick and tired of the few on this forum who think they know it all. We are all from diverse backgrounds and ages and races. For fucks sake.

  • Obviously this must work some percentage of the time. He can fish in the ocean of “desperate and underemployed and willing to do foolish things looking for a fast-forward in life” and eventually he will get a bite. Find a chick with a crappy character and massive entitlement who thinks she can replace the obviously sexless wifey-poo and climb onto his sad sausage and the story ends very, very differently.

    This exact same event happens at a slower pace all the time, without the jizz reference, but with him volunteering to “mentor” her and take her lunch and have long meaningful conversations about how he can help her advance her career. The end goal is to get in her pants after crafting stories about how he is misunderstood and he and the Appliance are just roommates, blah blah blah. Oh, the worldly older man! Oh, the fast forward in life! Yes Sir sign me up and I won’t think about the family I am destroying!

    Ask me how I know.

    Thank goodness he got exposed by this smart woman. Thank goodness there is proof with texts, so often there are just lies and doubt.

  • Wow! She handled that assault beautifully. I begin to scroll down for the comments and I’M assaulted by an Ashley Madison ad. Guess this shit’s getting pretty prevalent.

  • I so hope my husband runs into a woman like this. I didn’t have the strength to take him down and he is a first class manipulator. Great dad, perfect head youth baseball coach to our kids and team, very successful business cfo, and everyone loves him but he cheats on me numerous times with secondary years long relationships. I hope someone can take him down.

  • Just think how many future victims may have been spared. It puts a great spin on the adage, “If you save one person, you save the world”

  • Knowledge that this kind of creep is out there and not that out of the ordinary gives me such great confidence in my future, being a good man with integrity who tries to treat everyone with dignity and respect. I know that sounds like tooting my own horn, but with what I’ve been through these past three years, I think I’m allowed to do that sometimes. And that should be the standard of living, but this guy makes me look like Francis of Assisi.

    • And what I mean by”standard of living” is that “being a good man with integrity who tries to treat everyone with dignity and respect” is the low bar that should be expected of everyone.

    • Yes Music guy you will do fine on the dating market. When I was dating again in my forties I could not BELIEVE what men were willing to text, say, write in emails, when they had sometimes not even met me. When I would block them, they’d go so far as to make fake profiles so they could contact me again to tell me what a humorless bitch I was. Any normal man who made normal conversation looked like prince charming in comparison. And when I met my now husband who showed himself to be kind and decent, I easily vowed to love him all my life and never let him go. We tell each other every day how lucky we are. There are many decent good women who will appreciate your integrity.

      • I appreciate the encouragement. It’s been a fear of mine, but I’m learning to let go of that.

    • Musicguy, I was married for 16 years and then divorced my cheater in my early 40s. I then dated for a number of years and then met my now wife and have been very happy since.
      You are correct that you will do great but as I would tell a woman hitting the dating scene in her 40s, I’ll give you the same advice to be careful.

      (Note this advice is just as applicable to women starting to date as well)

      There are some absolutely wonderful women out there but there are also some seriously messed up ones and many of these are wearing a “nice girl” mask when you start dating. After dating for several years, I learned the hard way to absolutely watch for red flags and do NOT spackle — red flags often are cracks in the mask showing the monster lurking beneath. The other issue is to look for emotional maturity– does she seem like she has it together but deep down has the maturity and entitlement of a High Schooler ?? If so, if you are not mature by your 40s–you never will be so beware.
      Another warning is multiple failed marriages and nothing is ever her fault. If she admits that she hadn’t fixed her picker and made mistakes and then went to therapy and did then OK otherwise watch out.

      Like I said hopefully you will meet the perfect woman for you and be very happy. Just be careful that you don’t end up like a close friend of mine where he’s a sweet guy and in his 40s after a divorce dated a “nice” woman for 3 years, got married and within a year the mask was off and he was married to a monster. He ended up having to go through a painful and expensive divorce. Unfortunately he spackled over the red flags when they were dating and it led to a disaster.

  • The whole thing is just gobsmacked. It seems odd that this conversation took place in the middle of the night, unless they were just both light sleepers. He’s just freaking creepy and I don’t why she just didn’t back away. As soon as he started in with the cum thing, I would have been out of there. The whole thing is just slimy.

    • I would have stayed with as soon as I suspected he was a perv in order to catch him in the act and expose him. Maybe that was her reason.

    • (1) First and most important, he’s a cheater and he sucks, jacking off to women on his computer behind his wife’s back. He’s getting what he deserves. Lose his job, his wife, his reputation. Good riddance.

      (2) I agree regarding the late night texting. There’s more to this story. No one should be texting a married person at 3:00 a.m…even if it’s “just about work.” As a chump who had his wife engaging in midnight texts with her colleague (who turned out to be her OM), I say this doesn’t smell right.

  • Boy I wish I had known what to do back in my early twenties when I had a summer job doing general maintenance work for a slum lord. The slum lord was not around much but he had a mid thirties married handy man who kept feeling me up uninvited. He was literally the only coworker I had other than the boss who was rarely around so there was no safety in numbers. I tried just telling him to stop but that didn’t work. I tried to just avoid him but he kept tracking me down which was scary if I was working in the attic or any other isolated location with few exists. I didn’t think the boss would be any help as, quite frankly, he needed the other guy more than he needed me and he was harassing me in just about every way he could but sexually (unless you count trying to force me to walk in on a naked tenant to check on something in his bathroom – I refused). I even tried just ignoring it and pretending I didn’t notice which just lead to blame shifting “You shouldn’t be letting me do this”. I so wish I had had the guts to just kick him in the nuts or something but I was too afraid. Most of the building tenants (except the naked one), were gone during the day. In between feeling me up he would go on about how unhappy he was because he and his wife hadn’t had sex in three months but he would never cheat on her because he just wasn’t that sort of man. I guess copping unwanted feels on your coworker doesn’t count. This was before social media and even e-mail wasn’t a household thing yet. I didn’t even have his home phone number to call the wife. If I had, he probably would have just put all of the blame on me anyway and I had no proof of anything. Eventually my solution was to just quit the job. My paychecks were bouncing anyway. I guess it is hard to keep tenants when you keep making the maintenance staff walk in on them when they are naked. Ugh. Perverts! Anyway, I always #BELIEVEWOMEN due to my own experiences with perverted scum buckets.

    • The biggest insult was a few months later when I was confiding that story for some college dorm mates during a conversation about harassment and was told by one of the guys that I must have been doing something to invite that attention because I secretly wanted it.

      • It’s heartbreaking when so-called “friends” do things like that. Such a betrayal. I remember telling my supposed best friend about my ex’s abusive behavior and she was sarcastic and dismissive, even though she had been through something similar herself. I never saw her again after that.

        • At least the other girls who were in on the conversation stuck up for me.

    • I hear you on that. I always believe women (fairly or not) because of my own experiences.

  • Good for her!
    Question for my insane situation: the OW is an “activist for women’s rights”. No joke. I discovered that she was traveling with him on his “work trips” with extra time for some R&R on the beach, ski slopes, etc of course. First class paid by my him (and me apparently since we live in a community property state ). Fancy dinners and the works. While I’m home taking care of our two children and working. He never called his kids while traveling and they rarely saw him. Then I discovered that he was sending OW money (our retirement money. A lot!) directly as a “donation” for her cause, which she used to help buy herself a house! And I discovered he was paying for the upkeep of the house too. Note he’s never cared about any sort of women’s rights prior, in fact the opposite. But he claims it wasn’t an affair and nothing physical happened until I discovered all of this and kicked him out (ha!) There were 3 Ddays prior to her in our 22 year old marriage and Ive since discovered when my lawyer hit hold of his credit card statements that he spent gobs of money on even more women, strip clubs and more! And meanwhile OW is all over social media advocating for women’s rights. And people seem to be buying it. She’s so wonderful and he’s so philanthropic. I’m finally divorced, our kids are NC with him and I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone. Help?

    • You don’t seem to need help, you took care of the things well.

      As to femi activist, just another impression manager who gaslight she’s oh so enlightened that she doesn’t pay attention to such oppressive patriarchal institutions as marriage.

      (Ps – I consider myself a feminist)

    • Remember that predators always go to where the prey is and wrap themselves in camouflage.

      Hence why pedophiles become youth pastors or teachers, racists become “supporters of civil rights”, and those who prey on women become “women’s right’s activists”.
      Before he was exposed, Harvey Weinstein was a “champion of women’s rights”. He marched in a women’s rights parade in Utah, he endowed a chair at Rutgers in Gloria Steinem’s name and offered to raise $5 million to support scholarships for women directors at the University of Southern California.

      This OW has a nice con going, supporting an extravagant lifestyle by being the OW for married men all while publicly advancing the cause of women.

      • Thank you so much for these perfect examples that give clarity to this insanity. I really needed this on tough days as I keep trying to move forward

    • How does encouraging a man to disrespect his wife making a stand for women’s rights? She’s a fraud.

    • Then she is guilty of misappropriation of funds if she took money intended for her organization and used it for herself.
      Did you report it?

      • Yes- but they designated the house she bought with his ‘donations’ and which she lives in as ‘headquarters’ for the nonprofit, they classify their 1st class vacations as business expenses and more. It’s really nutty for sure but thank goodness I’m now divorced and out of that circus. BUT… she’s all over social media supporting her causes while he’s funding her lifestyle. She doesn’t have kids so they’re ‘free’ to act and she can give him all the attention he wants (yet he’s arguing about paying child support!). They’re philanthropic on soap boxes while I’m left to raise our kids completely on my own, work, and keep my head above water. (Chump Nation: please be careful about supporting certain people’s causes)

  • I wonder what went through her mind at “Anyway you’re so beautiful”. I mean, how does that conversation lead to that?

    When I was in the Navy, I was subject to annual (at least) sexual harassment avoidance training. That was back in the 80’s and 90’s. I was on a surface combat ship and we didn’t even have women as part of the crew. Still got the training. When I worked in the private sector there was no such thing ever. Now that I am in the public sector again, the training occurs every 3 years. Treating other people in a business-like manner has been beaten into my skull.

    I just don’t understand how anyone could think the response to such a remark would be anything less than revulsion. I know I shouldn’t be surprised by these things any more but it is still a shock to me every single time.

  • I told my kids (12&14 at the time) the basic facts. No details. No calling him names or editorializing. I then told them that I wouldn’t go into details or offer up more but if they asked me a direct question, I would answer it honestly as best I could.

    I know how it felt to realize that the person that I thought I knew had lied and deceived me…to realize that I had made countless decisions for my life based on lies. I did not want to lie to them and ever have them feel that because of me.

    Plus, I wanted them to have an authentic relationship with their dad. Good, bad, or neutral, it should at least be real.

    • I agree. I actually did not want my kids to hate their dad (that would be sad for them) but I did want them to know the truth and I did want him to have to do some work to keep their trust in him and his love for them. If he wasn’t willing to work on our relationship, let him work a bit on his relationship with his kids. As long as he is willing to do that work, I will do my best to facilitate and/or at least not impede his relationship to his kids. I will say he is a much better dad now that he doesn’t live with us any more.

      • Exactly! The relationship my ex has with his children is completely up to him. It will be whatever he puts into it.

        Sadly, it is not great. My oldest doesn’t want to even see him. My older daughter has dinner with him twice a month. And my youngest he barely sees. What became a parent, was that I had been the bridge between them most of their lives. I was enabling him to do impression management on them. He didn’t participate in their activities, but I filled him in so he could sound like he was involved. I removed myself completely from in between them. I do not hinder their relationship. I still encourage My kids to have a relationship with him. But it is still up to them to build that relationship.

  • I just love how tech these days can shut this sh*t down pronto (smartphones,screenshots,etc.). I burst out laughing watching an interview of Audrey Fleurot, a lovely cast member in the French cop series “Spiral”. She mentioned how smartphones have stopped pervy men on the Parisian metro from masturbating/flashing/etc. A man whips his out and a woman will whip out her phone and post it online. Done and done.

    • Not this gal. Talia Jane is a dubious character. Read her Twitter feed. Sorry, she is not a chump. No one has betrayed her. She is an attention hag – the eternal victim. She received some nasty texts from a pervert – not pretty, but hardly life destroying. She might want to have thought of the man’s poor wife before she publicly bulldozed her information through the Internet. If I was this man’s wife, I would have a serious hate on for her. A millennial idiot.

      • On the contrary, the man’s ‘poor wife’s is a grown woman capable of deciding if she’s ok with his DOCUMENTED behaviour or not.

        Or should we all shush in case she finds out her husband is a pervert?

        Talia Jane did that woman a favour. For all we know, his wife has been suspicious for ages, and now she’s had those suspicions confirmed.

        • I was under the impression that this blog was about the pain of infidelity – not outing perverts, who are at this point only guilty of sending 3 creepy texts. Heart be still.

          • The wife is a chump. The cheater is typical. Many here have found through discovery the many, similar creepy texts and advances their husbands made to the affair partners and sex hookups. Cheaters don’t change. Not from day to day, nor from cheater to cheater. They all play by the same playbook.

            Maybe you’re new here?

      • If you scroll up on this very page you’d know that you’ll get no support here. When Cheaters aren’t publicly outed, they bully and abuse their chumps in order to preserve their reputation.

        1. They emotionally blackmail the chump into lying about the divorce to the kids (meaning the kids resent the chump for “breaking up the family,” and later for the lying).

        2. They threaten ungrounded defamation lawsuits or harassment charges in order to stop the Chump telling anyone else.

        3. They ruin the chump’s reputation by spreading lies about why they divorced. “He’s abusive,” “she’s barely spoken to me in 2 years,” “I don’t know why – she just up and abandoned me one day,” “he’s a drunk.”

        His wife will be far more protected by the truth being made public. No one will blame her for leaving, no one will believe the husband’s lies about why they divorced, and the nasty little misogynists like you will focus your rage on the person who had the nerve to tell the truth – which isn’t her, so that’s another problem off her plate.

        So nice try, but it’s clear that what actually concerns you is protecting the reputation of a cheater and a sexual harasser, and that what truly angers you is when a woman has the nerve to report it when men harass her.

        What’s that classic cheater/abuser line? “The problem isn’t what I did, it’s how you responded to what I did?” Yeah. We don’t think much of that here. We don’t think much of your “the problem isn’t what he did, it’s that she honestly reported what he did” version either.

        • 9 Not seeing that the husband is a creepy cheater boggles my mind…
          Maybe 9 is a special person. You know what I mean… the type that differentiates the tormented and victimized cheater she’s in love with and thinks she can change him because he’s really just in love with her and not a creep or a cheater. She’s special and their love is special…. and he’s not a creep and they have twu luv. Andhis wife is a sexless bitch so he isn’t necessarily cheating on his wife. And he doesn’t have burner phones, dating profiles, spends money at Asian massage parlors, or send coworkers creepy texts. Right???? My name is Nancy Reagan too.

          • At this point, all we have are 3 creepy texts. That’s ALL the evidence we have. We do not know about burner phones, Asian massage parlours, blackmailing wives, sleeping with prostitutes, affair partners, lying to children. Let’s not project that this man is tantamount to a monster, based on 3 lousy texts. Maybe he is just one stupid, thoughtless guy.

            Our friend, Talia Jane, is a serious piece of work. Read up on her. Look at the messenger before you make up your mind.

            Also, not new here. Been reading the column for years and strongly believe in its message. Just not today’s post.

            • Whatever. Creepy texts to a woman who is not his wife says enough in my book, followed up with a bribe attempt to a NOW organization and appealing for the honor of his wife who he now cares about since he was caught… . A pessimist is optimist with experience. Stay the optimist you are! It’s kind of endearing.

              • Not a naive optimist. But not going to be a lemming and jump off the deep end with a million ill-conceived assumptions. There have been far more compelling and tragic stories that we have read about on this column. This one is neither compelling, nor tragic. More like click-bait. Which was Talia Jane’s original purpose.

            • “One stupid, thoughtless guy.”

              Really? Really. “Oh he’s not a creep he’s just too stupid to know that you shouldn’t send lewd texts to strangers – especially if you’re married?” Right.
              Perfectly understandable! I mean, until a few years ago I didn’t know that there was different detergent for front and top-loading washing machines – who among us doesn’t have a few gaps in our knowledge?

              Bullshit. Although, I do like how you’ve dropped the pretense of caring about the wife and are being up-front about the fact that you’re really just concerned about defending the cheating, sexually harassing husband.

              Also, nice bit of victim-smearing you’ve got going on there, but I don’t care if Talia Jane eats babies. She did not solicit those comments and no matter what you think her sins are, there is no sin that obligates her to stay silent about her sexual harassment. I don’t care whether you consider her saintly enough to deserve freedom from sexual harassment, or saintly enough to have the right to publicly speak out when she is sexually harassed. She doesn’t have to earn the right to those things.

              • She also doesn’t have the right to very publicly blow up a family on the basis of 3 texts.

              • This reply is for chumpchange9 since there is no reply to your comment.

                Talia did not very publicly blow up a family. The husband did. She just re-posted what she sent to him. Idiot Millennial you say? What idiot of any age thinks that when they send a text message to anyone it’s private?

                What happens in Vegas might stay in Vegas, but what happens electronically is forever.

                We don’t know anything more than the three creepy texts-that is a fact but blaming Talia for posting what that numb nut sent to her is just craptastic. That’s the typical “It’s not what I did, it’s your reaction to it” response.

  • When I first came to Geneva I was 21 and fairly shy and reserved. I got a lot of male attention and didn’t particularly like it but, as I say, I was young and didn’t know how to handle it. One day I was walking back from lunch along the main road and a guy started driving alongside me yelling how he wanted to come on my face, on my tits and what he would like to do to me. It was all “hey beautiful, look over here gorgeous”. I did my best to ignore him but it was awful so I didn’t look at him. Next thing I heard was S-M-A-S-H …. he had been so busy looking out the window and yelling at me that he smashed into the car in front that had stopped at a red light! To say I got satisfaction from that sound would be an understatement!

    • This reply is to Lola Granola, Meow Mix, Traffic Spiral, Mandie: I wonder how much you all would enjoy thousands of people finding out about your partner’s unsavoury antics before you did? Just how many of you kept things totally under wraps when the shit hit the fan? How many DDays did you suffer alone, because you felt you couldn’t or wouldn’t turn to anyone? Did any of you become the town crier and loudly announce to your entire community that your husband/wife was a cheating shit, when you found out? How do you think unsuspecting teenagers feel when dirt about their parents becomes public before they have a chance to hear it from a trusted source?
      Kids commit suicide for less. This woman’s attention seeking behaviour is beyond reprehensible.

      • 1. I would never demand a woman keep silent about sexual harassment just because I was connected to the harasser – boss, husband, kid, mentor, whatever. It’s not “attention seeking” to tell the truth.

        2. Better the truth be known than let your spouse re-write the narrative to make you look worse in order to protect his/her reputation.

        3. Why are you still here? Your previous comments have made pretty clear that you’re on the side of the cheater. Everyone else’s comments have made pretty clear they’re not buying your bullshit and are not in favor of women being obligated to cover up for cheating men or else they’re “attention seeking.” What made you think that a Chump board was the place for you to start handwringing about that poor, poor man whose life was now destroyed just because of a little infidelity, and why couldn’t that hussy just shut up?

        Don’t you have RIC church meeting to go to or something?

  • Reporter-Creep offered to give a donation to NOW – how generous of him. A similar but MUCH more generous strategy worked for Mark Cuban when his organization was under fire.

    I worked as a journalist at large newspapers for 20+ years and had so many bizarre and inappropriate things happen. My favorite story is about how I was alone and in my 20s, working a breaking news shift on a Sunday, when the married managing editor came in. He started doing lunges behind my desk and tried to call my attention to his leg strength. He asked if my husband at the time, who was a competitive mountain biker, had such ‘muscular legs.’

    I could write a damn book. But I’m too tired to have to do the all the publicity rounds. I so wish I had the guts to shut all that shit down like this woman did.

    A similar story…I would say this confirms the fact that this is much more common than one would like to think. It also confirms to me that there is also no winning this game. If these women do not disclose the behavior of these idiots, they are responsible for their wives not knowing. If they do disclose it, they are not believed. SMH….

  • This reminds me of a time about 18 months prior to D’day when I got this random message from my husband “I will be the one with the red carnation” WTF? So I wait till I get home and I say to him that I got the strangest message from him that day……why was he going to have a red carnation? Hell, I was so niave. He then waffles on about how some random woman had been messaging him (in error , Wrong number) about their pending date and how was she going to be able to tell it was him when she saw him so he had responded “I will blah blah blah” because he had conditioned me for so long that he was a squeaky clean christian, and that and thoughts I had of his being unfaithful were all a figment of my over active imagination, I just accepted the story.
    Post D’day I find that the message was not meant for some random woman as he claimed and yes he had sent it to me in error. It was in fact for a guy he was hooking up with. The dumb ass chose to meet up at a pub close to where I worked and was spotted by a couple of my work collegues who knew who he was.

  • Talia is brave; much braver than I was in my 20’s. I had one really bad experience at 25 that caused me to keep my mouth shut. Here is the experience: I really needed a job that I was offered and was given a verbal contract for this job right before Christmas break. (The job was within a large, academic environment). When I was out on errands alone, I ran into the male (and single) chairman of the hiring committee during the Christmas break. He was a lot older than me. This was the same person who gave me a verbal contract along with the hiring committee prior to the break. The contract was to be signed in January after the academic calendar was resumed. That chance meeting while on errands, with this chairman, cost me a job. The chairman told me he wanted to take me on vacation to a warm location to celebrate and he was buying airfare. I thought this man was joking because I did not know this man on any level whatsoever. He was not an acquaintance and he was not someone I had networked with in the past. He was the chair of a hiring committee and I was the candidate who had gotten the verbal offer for job. Obviously, he had been part of the hiring process, but was otherwise unknown to me. That’s all he was to me and I was to him. No one could have accused me of sending false signals (since a lot of people like to blame women). Indeed, he was not joking about the trip that he and I would take alone together. During that chance meeting on an errand, he made it clear that if I did not want an intimate relationship with him, there would no contract for me to sign. When the academic calendar resumed, there was no contract. I approached the (male) director of this academic environment to complain. Surprisingly, the male director knew what had happened because this chairman had so much power at this institution. The chairman told the director that he was vetoing the job because I would not date (him) the chairman. I asked the director if I could file a formal complaint. I remember this director putting his hands in the air and saying he “was not going to touch the situation because the chairman ran things around there.” Technically, he was the boss of the chairman, but was very intimidated and did not want to even help me file a complaint. I slunk off and did not bother contacting an attorney because I had tried to rectify the situation with the chairman’s boss and was turned away. I felt like an idiot and there was no way I wanted to hire an attorney, get into a “he said, she said” thing, knowing that the director of this academic environment would not help in any way. Now, it’s roughly 21 years later. I was wondering if this chairman still works in this academic environment. Indeed, he does. Thankfully, it’s in a part of the US that I left a long time ago and I never want to return there. But, all these years later it still stings because I was a coward. I did not hire and attorney and attempt to fight the system. (Granted, I also had NO MONEY to hire an attorney… I did not have a job!!). Still, I look back and wish I would have done something. For all I know, it could have turned out even more terrible because this fellow truly did wield a power that I did not understand and apparently he does to this day.

    Fortunately, Talia had proof that this journalist had crossed the line. The part about her being attractive was just crossing the line. But, the remark about what was on her face. Unbelievable. I do not know how that journalist thought that was okay to speak to her this way. But, she still had the bravery to tell others.

    I wonder how many women out there have had a similar experience: losing a potential job because a man in a position of power wanted a sexual relationship and the woman did not want it. How many have either lost an actual job or lost a contract because she did not want to have a sexual relationship with a male superior?

    Talia is surely brave.

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