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Muffin topIt’s 3 a.m., you’re in early discovery stages of chumpdom, and you’re Googling to understand, chances are you’re going to hit a lot of Reconciliation Industrial Complex sites.

Send me $399 and I’ll affair-proof your marriage! Just sign up for my Fuckwit Busters Marriage Retreat! Do you lack sophistication? Mate outside of captivity!

I built Chump Lady to be an antidote to the lousy and predatory nonsense out there.

Chump Nation is a community of good people who trusted and got played, where advice centers on self-respect and agency. And unlike a shiny-haired huckster with a “therapy” degree from a Florida strip mall, CN’s expertise is Been There, Done That.

I’m very proud of this chump outpost on the interwebz. But now it’s time to improve it.

Behind the scenes, I’ve been trying to re-do the site for months. A whole new look, a whole new way of organization the information you find here.

It’s NOT GOING AWAY. Archives will still be there, the daily posts will still be there. What will be different is the landing page — so when you arrive, you aren’t confused by what this strange planet is.

And I need your help!

We’ll return to Friday challenges like Biggest Vat of Spackle I Ever Fell Into next week, but today I’d love to know what I can do better around here.

1.) Resources. Do you have a book that really helped? I’m bringing back the Amazon resource widget I used to have here. (That they stopped supporting… there’s some new thing.) Anywho, titles, please!

2.) Testimonials. Newbies are going to be like, who are you and why should I listen to this place? I’m looking for a few testimonials to highlight. (Maybe a rotator, slide show thing.) Did support here help you heal faster? Make a new friend? Get your courage back? TELL ME.

3.) Wishlist. I’m open to ideas. Except for Chump Dating Site. Not gonna happen. (I get asked that a lot. It would be one stop shopping for sociopaths and how would i ever vet anyone?)

Greater community though? I get that. Already on the new site will be a link to our closed Facebook group and subReddit.  Please follow the instructions on those links on how to join.

Translations? There will be a Spanish page. If you want to provide some translations for other languages, email me at

Right now I’m looking at an unveiling sometime in the early New Year. It’s in the design stage now, and in Dec. it starts getting coded.

All your ideas, please! Let’s make it better for all the new chumps.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Love testimonials ideas. Just a page of real-life examples searchable similarly to the archives.

    Love resources too. Music has been a powerful tool for me, so beyond books

    Life beyond/self-care: things/activities to get thru hard days but also start to remember nature or quiet moments that help healing.

    • I miss the community so much. Need to figure out reddit or facebook, clicking around for hours when I ask lost really helped.

    • Music, yes. So many songs that inspire me and my girls.

      Fight Song, It’s Gonna Be Okay, You Say by Lauren Diagel, A Million Dreams, This Is Me…. SO many that have moved me…

      • Eurythmics Thorn in My Side and Would I Lie to You? (which is about leaving a creep) and the Dixie Chicks, Not Ready to Make Nice

        • I’ve been compiling my own music list, which I keep adding to.
          Part of waking up is suddenly really understanding the lyrics of songs I have loved for years.
          Most recent addition:
          “Reeling in the Years” by Steely Dan
          ….The things you think are precious I don’t understand

      • YES TO SONGS –

        Stronger, Since You Been Gone, Never Again, (ALL by Kelly Clarkson)

        Try, (by Pink)


        You Don’t Own Me

        I Will Love Again, (Lara Fabian, or Barracuda)

        Rise Up,

        I Can Let Go Now, (by Alison Kraus)

        Teach Your Children, (Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young)

        **I Will Survive, (Gloria Gaynor)

      • I find music helps, too and have some playlists on Spotify for different moods.

        My cheater overcoming music includes:

        “Lips are Movin” by Meghan Trainor (the lyric from the title continues: “your lips are movin, so you lie, lie, lie, lie”)

        “Bad blood” by Taylor Swift (Also her “Shake It Off” and “Clean”.)

        “Fighter” by Christina Aguilera

        “Roar” by Katy Perry

        “I will Survive”. By Gloria Gaynor

        For the pleasure of singing the curse words and imagining the ex, though not directly on point “F*ck you” by Lily Allen (lots of F bombs and a chorus which includes uncensored lyrics like “F*ck you, f*ck you very, very much, ‘cause we hate what you do and we hate your whole crew.”)

        My angry music CD favourite is Alanis Morrisette’s Jagged Little Pill.

    • I love the idea of testimonials, especially when you have guest bloggers and a detailed story about someone who is mighty. They are very inspirational and uplifting.

      The Friday pages offer a fun way to end the week!

      I truly think a Chump Lady convention would be great (and I’m still willing to plan it). Programs for different ages and stages, meet and greets by region. Held somewhere accessible and affordable. Not everyone will be able to attend (cannot make everyone happy) but it would be a great community builder.

      Those and convincing you to try a TED talk are my thoughts.

      • I love these ideas. TED talk would be awesome. I’ m even thinking hour long special on Netflix leave a cheater gain a life ???????????????????? Loved Brene Brown’s Netflix special on vulnerability.

        • For Reading, (other than the obvious LACGAL)

          anything by Brene Brown and

          some of the books by Marianne Williamson helped me feel at peace about the DOCTOR’s idiot choices. Not “forgiving” but depersonalizing…

          She helped me realize this is mostly about him, not me, and certainly not about our “ungrateful” children whom the idiot has ghosted for 3 years.

          But thanks to this site, I can see that the DOCTOR becoming irrelevant to our lives is actually what’s best for us and deserved by him.

  • I just remember reading your book and actually saying to my ex- this is YOU! It was such a relief to read that my feelings, his behavior, and the awfulness of it all – was not just me.

    That being said, I still run across women who have been abused like we have, and have no name for the behavior – like gaslighting. Just met a women last night, that experienced it, but had no name for the behavior and as we were sharing stories – kept saying “wow, that happened to me also”

    So, for people to know they landed at a helpful place, where they will find their tribe – maybe start out with listing behaviors that are common among abusive divorces with some tagline – you are not alone.

    Some divorces just happen – I have met people who just divorced – sad and all – but nothing what we all went through – a whole different animal.

    Also, Les Carter, does great you tubes on narcissists from a Christian perspective –

    CN and CL Thanks!

        • WwDear CL,
          I also have not read all the comments, but I will be sure to read them later.
          I often think about Chumps here who contribute posts fairly often and I cannot help but see the great progress of so many.
          They really are amazing.
          It makes me wonder if there was some way that on certain days you could possibly feature a particular Chump and walk with her/him through their maze, from DDay, in the middle of chaos, then finally seeing some light, to an amazing, coming out ahead, coming out of the fog and into the light. I have witnessed this here, many many times. Some names that come to mind are Mother Chumper99, Martha, Kintsugi, Mighty Momma Bear, and so many others. Perhaps some of their postings from the different stages could be reposted.
          To me this says a million, zillion words. They offer hope, they offer support, love and kindness. They show progress, they show survival from hell, sometimes even to the land of meh,
          I hope this makes some sense.
          I am going to hit send as I often ramble for too long and my posts vanish.

      • In addition to CL and the support of CN, that allowed me to feel whole despite having been chumped, The Little Shaman is absolutely the best out there to assist in the healing journey – look her up on YouTube. Listening to the Little Shaman has really helped me the most to really see and ‘get it’. She is like the Narc whisperer and truly understands the borderline personality – whether it is a malignant narcissist cheater (male or female), parent, etc. She has helped me the most to separate from and let go of my cheater – 5 years after DD #1 (when I discovered CL) and after countless more DDs (oh the fear of being alone and hopium was heavy). I finally know there is no amount of time, energy, money, support, forgiveness, self deprecation or love that I can give him that will change him. I can only change myself.

    • Back in the day, the book that made the greatest difference for me was, “What to Do When Your Spouse Says, ‘I Don’t Love You Anymore'” by David C. Clarke. I could have saved myself a fortune in bookstore expenses. What I learned there likely wouldn’t have changed the outcome of my marriage, it certainly would have stiffened my spine.

      Leslie Vernick books (and videos) are great, too.

    • Just watched the movie “Gaslight” (1944) with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman. Time for a 21st century remake ? Any details for disordered behavior can be culled from the experiences of chumps on this website. The level of “you can’t make this up” unbelievable behavior.

    • I missed this Friday but I will still throw in my two cents. I think you need a tab for “those questioning if you should be here”

      1. Disclaimer- the raw language is a coping mechanism. We are not low class heathans but intelligent people saving our selves from abuse- mental and sometime physical.

      2. There is not a wreckoncilliation site that at least one of us has not tried. They do not have the answer if your partner is a cheater. The advice might be great for a healthy marriage.

      3.There really are no unicorns- they are a myth. If you believe you may have a unicorn, save yourself a lot of time and go immediately to a psych ward for people who have lost touch with reality.

      4. If your partner has cheated, it is unequivocally abuse. Giving an abuser a second chance always ends in more abuse.

      5. You can click away, but we wish you would stay and have a chat. If you do click away, no judgement here, the door is always open for your return.

      We have all been in your shoes!

  • Is there a way to connect with others who share characteristics – over 50 years old, childless, physically or income challenged? Is that the Reddit link? How are folks connected confidentially?

    Loved the summaries about cheating to provide to health professionals, lawyers, employers? Maybe with a profanity-free version?

    Looking forward to others ideas!

  • I’ve always wanted to post links to some of the crap RIC links I fell for, but never have. Crap that I fell for thinking reconciliation was taking place while she was still out screwing around with David Koresh behind my back.

    The one in particular is the Austin retreat video of the client couple….she is busting her ass to save their marriage and recovered Chumps can see it in his eyes that he is still screwing around on her.

    How about a testimonial page where chumps can discuss getting duped for money, time, and more heartache by those RIC retreats, programs, and resources?

    • A list of RIC sites and marriage counsellors who suck would probably put CL in hot water legally, but I wish there was a way to warn people. I hate that these con artists are getting people to stay in abusive marriages and soaking them for thousands if $ in useless “therapy”. I guess we just keep speaking truth to stupid about how they say victims of cheating, abusive scum must “own their part” in being chumped. “What needs weren’t you meeting?”
      “It takes two to create marital dysfunction.”
      “You’re inability to forgive is what’s holding this marriage back.”

      Argh! Fuck all of them!

      • Outing disordered, immoral therapists ? A lot of them post their drivel on their websites. I say list them with links to said sites so “buyer beware” can read what they’re putting down money for before wasting too much time ( and sanity).

        A couple of names come to mind including my neighbor. She teaches at a local uni and trains future therapists in human sexuality. Smh.

  • These are old and heavily skewed towards women as the non-aggressors but they are still handy for the gentlemen Chumps amongst us (seriously – we know women can be cheating lying assholes too!):

    “The Gift of Fear” Gavin de Becker

    “Why Does He DO That?” Lundy Bancroft

    “Don’t Shoot the Dog” Karen Pryor

    “Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt” Susan Forward

    “Depression Fallout” by the late Anne Sheffield – but it’s really tilted towards NON-cheating couples who are dealing with depression – nevertheless, some readers may find it useful. She was a BIG advocate of boundaries, consequences and saving oneself if the other party simply didn’t want to change.

    “One Way Ticket to Kansas: Caring about Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder and Finding a Healthy You” by Ozzie Tinman (disclaimer: I knew him from the BPD boards and he was so much happier since escaping his BPD wife. Ozzie – wherever you are today, I hope you continue to be happier!)

    Music. So much Spotify! And random radio dialing. There is something to be said for cruising up and down the bandwidth.

    Exercise. Sweat equity. Alone, in a group, with a dog…

    I wish I could get into cleaning my house but I hate doing it alone. It works wonders for others!

    I get a kick out of playing with Nerdwallet and making charts of various sorts. Data makes me happy.

    • I’ll help you clean your house, No Shit Cupcakes, if you help me with mine. We can create a Chump House Cleaning Group.

      Both of Tracy Schorn’s books helped me tremendously.
      -The ChumpLady Survival Guide to Infidelity (this one helped me open my eyes first back in 2014)
      -Leave a Cheater,Gain a Life
      (Best self-help book ever on dealing with infidelity!)

      -Husband, Liar, Sociopath by O.N. Ward
      -Transcending Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder- The Six Stages of Healing by Dennis Ortman, PhD

      This community still helps me on a daily basis. It’s priceless.

      • Actually, would be a good resource – it’s about routines and getting your house/car/life cleaned up. I followed her years before Dday and was grateful to rely on the habits I built years before. Everything is broken down in doable chunks and you can get reminders and just follow it on auto-pilot while your world is going to heck.

        She is also a chump, BTW.

          • Oops! Thanks for catching that! I can vouch for the effectiveness of her approach, even if it seems a little dated in the language. It was really helpful to replace negative thoughts in my head with her catchy phrases.

            • I haven’t visited Flylady for a long time, but I can attest to the effectiveness of her lessons; I still make up my bed when I get out of it, put on shoes, and am working on getting all the dishes done before I go to bed.

        • Flylady rocks! I have been a Flybaby since 2004….I am currently a lapsed Flybaby….and she is all about self-love having escaped an abusive marriage….

          Just got my new Flylady 2020 calendar today!

      • Thank you Renee! I’ll rope the people who do or have lived there first. As their gift to me.

        But that is a GREAT idea!

      • “This community still helps me on a daily basis. It’s priceless”
        You can put my name under that testimonial right now.

  • One BIG complaint I have is how few resources address men with BPD. They have it too and it SUCKS.

    Which isn’t the same thing as cheating but so many of them do (male and female). The overt ones and the quiet ones.

    • NSC, I always thought my ex had many traits of BPD, including an extreme fear of abandonment and major emotional dysregulation. The book I liked was “Hard to Love: Understanding and Overcoming Male BPD” by Joseph Nowinski.

      Full disclosure, I didn’t read it cover to cover, just skimming in the bookstore over several visits. It had good info though.

      I’m sorry to hear that was your experience. It can be heartbreaking to deal with.

      • The flip-side is that our kids got a crash course in Abnormal Psychology from a very young age. It has averted a lot of potential long-term intimate disasters in the future.

        Still not fun or recommended, of course.

    • I went to a seminar once and the presenter said that while many people encounter women with BPD, most of the men with BPD are already in prison!

  • I don’t know how we could encourage that with other members but I have been spreading the news on so many other FB groups (in 2 languages) anytime the topic of infidelity comes up. I put a link straight to your blog, talk about your book and how it literally saved my life. That’s what happened to me. Thankfully I spent less than 2 weeks on RIC after Dday because someone there mentioned your blog. I knew what I was reading made no sense to me and as soon as I started reading your blog, it’s like the Heavens opened.
    As far as translation, I’ve talked to you about doing the French one. We French-speakers have to deal with the added humiliation of the ‘sophisticated cheaters’ stereotype as well as Esther Perel being a French-speaker… 🙁

    • We do have this problem in France. I remember some of the comments during the Dominique Strauss-Kahn scandal in New York (I think) about an affair with a housekeeper being neglectible… or, more recently, the comments of many prominent French actresses about how they expected to be wooed by men (I’m not sure it’s the right word) during #metoo. Thankfully we didn’t hear them after the Epstein scandal…

      • Ugh… DSK… What a nightmare. More of a rape than an affair 🙁 But I’m glad to see movements such as NousToutes starting to change the narrative. I especially like what Adèle Haenel has had the courage to do this week. Little by little… Cheater and sexual abusers have so much in common.

        • You’re absolutely right! I had forgotten that. Worse than an affair.

          Recently when the CEO of McDonald’s was fired for inappropriate behavior a French prominent newspaper (Le Monde) commented that as evidence of puritanism in the USA.

          • Yes, After 23 years of what I thought was a good marriage my French cheater —I’m American — explained to me that he had the right to his “ jardin secret“ secret garden. It sounds so sophisticated to my simple mind. What a bunch of manure. Oh yeah, he was also training to be a zen monk.

        • Adultery is still the most common motive for divorce on France. The narcs (yes I’m looking at you, Michel Houellebecq) may love that ‘sophisticated’ approach, but real people actually do not.

          • Even in “sophisticated” France adultery hurts. Ask my neighbour who spent her nights pregnant and smoking, sitting at the bottom of the stairs waiting for her husband to come home around 4 a.m. and then was not even given the “courtesy” of an explanation! Yeah it hurts. She would have left that fucker years ago if she had had the resources. Doubt that she’ll leave him now but she hates his guts with a vengeance!

  • The book The Emotional Rape Syndrome by Michael Fox PhD was invaluable to me . Thinking of it that way really helps with the self blame – I would never blame myself for being raped, because we’ve successfully mounted a cultural battle to destroy that idea. He also goes into other areas where people are duped and taken advantage of, which helped me see the continuum of my kindness and desire to think well of people and ways in which that made me vulnerable. So that helps you fix your picker. He also has self-care ideas in there, and the same beef with Switzerlands that you do about “there’s two sides to every story” . Very helpful!

    • This sounded interesting to me, so I looked it up and got it on Apple Books. Reading the first chapter is the most sense anyone has made concerning the situation. Books like this should be in a Therapy 101 beginner class. Thank you already, Linda P Falcao.

  • All excellent ideas! I’d love to give a testimony. The summary would be: “it took me three months to understand was not the victim of a criminal amoral affair partner but that she was also a perpetrator. My family was not destroyed by one guy : two families where destroyed by a pair of entitled narcs.” Guess how long it took me to find ? You’re about right…

    A book not related to cheating or divorce but which helped me immensely when my mind was running wild is “The untethered soul” by Michael Singer. Very, very good. Simple to read. Stimulating. Helpful

  • This site and your book is at the top of my list of most helpful! Other resources that have greatly helped is the book Out Of The Fog by Dana Morningstar and the YouTube channel Surviving Narcissism.

    What I like about those resources is that it doesn’t always attempt to explain things from a narcissist’s viewpoint first. It usually describes what the chump is going through and what confusion it causes. I don’t know if that makes sense.

    See, I found the DSM very early on when trying to figure out what was happening. I definitely could see my wife (at the time) most likely fit into cluster B, but I didn’t think she fit any one disorder so I abandoned continuing to research that direction. What finally got me on the right path was stories that others told of the concerning events that happened earlier in the relationship (I call them WTF Events) and various events leading up to D-Day. I was then able to define what she was doing (invalidation, gaslighting, etc) and it helped me to get a grip on who she really was.

    Also, a very minor suggestion for the site. Do you think it would be better to have the site search somewhere at the very top?

  • Runaway Husband Syndrome by Vikki Stark. I heard a psychologist estimate 10% of all divorces fall into this category, where the husband in what seems to be a loving and supportive and happy marriage just leaves out of the blue. Spoiler alert, in most cases, after the abandonment you find out there was an OW or someone he was interested in. This scenario is a terrible mindfuck because at the time you have no idea what happened , and the cognitive dissonance between the ” we were happy and in love for 18 years ” and ” oops there he goes!” PTSD city.

    • +1 for all of us who got abandoned. The full title is “Runaway Husbands: The Abandoned Wife’s Guide to Recovery and Renewal”. It helped me to shake off a bit this ridiculous idea that he left because I’m a terrible person … and then I found CL and all puzzles have fallen into place.

      • I wish there was a follow-up book titled “Runaway Wives: The Abandoned Husband’s Guide to Recovery and Renewal”

      • ^THIS 100%!
        “Spoiler alert, in most cases, after the abandonment you find out there was an OW or someone/s he was interested in.”
        It begs the old ‘chicken or the egg question’ doesn’t it? Was the marriage really bad, as he suddenly claimed, (unbeknownst to me? and of course, I got a multi-page letter about all my faults, real or imagined) or was there a third or fourth party already involved who was supporting his devalue of me, the marriage and his family”. Also known as ‘monkey-branching’ and ‘lining up new supply’.

        Trust me, it was the latter, a ‘friend’ whom he had been seeing for years and announced as his new gf within 12 weeks, then promptly moved in with. Abandoned his children financially too. WTF? It all adds up now, and it seems so obvious. I was a very good wife and mother, and we had a very nice life. Until he unilaterally decided we didn’t.
        He fixed up his double life just as he wanted, secured a spot with the AP, then jumped.
        He Truly SUCKS!
        And we are still not divorced, 4 1/2 years later. Aaaarrrrrrrgh!

        With all these wonderful books being suggested, I may have to go back to being an Amazon Chump for awhile. Sometimes it takes a little time and perspective to be able to absorb the info and have it resonate within you.

        Always the best support right here at ChumpLady & ChumpNation. I found you after late night googling about my then husbands bizarre behavior. I think it was divine intervention. 😉

    • Yep, this was the first one I found after abandonment. My Asshat fell into the tiniest slice of cowards who not only run away suddenly, but do it while the wife is away from the home and break the news by e-mail or text. My Asshat is speshul like that, falling into the micro subset of complete fucking losers who don’t have the balls to face their own piles of steaming shit. After 28 years of marriage I was only worth an e-mail and he future faked me right up to the moment I left with warm hugs and kisses goodbye that Monday morning. The shock of whiplash from thinking that life is great and our future is bright to one of complete doom and tragedy was almost more than I could take. But it also illustrated what a horrible person my X is.

      I like this book because it made it clear that the marriage was over and it was a good cold slap I needed to keep from reaching for the Amazon bullshit “when good people have affairs” like I did 9 years earlier with OW#1. Stark’s list of resolve–that he is way beyond caring for my wellbeing, that there absolutely was an OW, that I needed to get my shit together for ME, and her illustration of the phases of pain– these were baby steps on my way to finding Chump Lady. Stark shined the first glimmer of light on the idea that, just maybe, it was NOT all my fault as I had been told.

      Further, in re-reading this book 2 years later it is so obvious that her X is a flaming narcissist sociopath who DARVO’d like a champ and dropped the bomb at the height of her success on purpose. Though Stark makes no such diagnosis herself, after an eduction with Chump Lady it is clear that dude is a disordered piece of crap who checks every single box on the entitled, low-character checklist.

      • Dear Now I.C. I can feel your pain along side of you. Same thing happened here, few weeks before 50th wedding anniversary found out ” the mister ” had been cheating for 13 years. Liar of the utmost proportion. Skum sucking fool, so hurtful to so many without a single care for anyone but himself. Even called the OW ” nothing but a stupid hog ” Hmmmm wonder why that was so desirable. Anyway, my heart bleeds for you and all Chumps here. Hang on, and hope

  • One thing I had to understand is that cheating is abuse. I searched for articles on this and there are quite a few. I found thinking of it as a form of abuse instead of a mistake, my fault, a way strengthen the marriage, etc; made me able to get out of the toxic cycle. It is a new way of looking at it.

  • I think testimonials are a fantastic idea. I’d love to hear from single moms with special needs children. I know the divorce rate is high with these. (I can give mine if necessary).

    The two biggest influences as far as books goes was Leave A Cheater Gain a Life, by far! The other was Runaway Husbands. And a Dr. Simon- In Sheep’s Clothing.

  • I found CL about six years ago by googling, “Why won’t my husband sleep with me?”. This site and came up. All of a sudden, everything made sense. All of the behaviours that he said were all in my head or that I was overreacting to – CL described and decoded them all! Thanks to ChumpLady, I was able to see that the problem was his deceit and monstrous mindfuckery, not me wanting too much or being too sensitive.

    Also extremely helpful and empowering with a generous helping of snark: Kris Godinez on youtube. She is the licensed clinical psychologist we all wish we had. Amazing lady! I would love to see a panel discussion with ChumpLady and Kris.

  • Although nothing has been added since 2017, I still return and reread posts at

    I’m three years out and couldn’t have imagine I’d ever be better off but my girls and I are happier then we’ve ever been. I rarely think about dickhead except my occasional cringe remembering my pick-me dancing lol.

    No contact is the key! Hang in there fellow chumps …you’ll be amazed at how much better life is without these lunatics!

  • Resources. I don’t have a suggestion for books, but a call for CN citizens for anything in the universal literature that they have read about chumps surviving or helping them in general would probably bring great suggestions. For example, I can’t remember which fellow chump it was, but I she introduced me here to Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning. An Introduction to Logotherapy”. It was very helpful. And great writing. Films too. Plus Translating LACGAL ASAP

    Testimonials. I can already say: support at CN did help me heal faster and get my courage and common sense back and throw spackle in the trash bin. And I love the testimonial here.

    Wishlist. I wish there were more exchanges on looking into the heads and hearts of children of chumps: how they survive, how they look at their chump parents’ struggles and their cheater parents’ shit. I guess it does not come up so often at CN because we have more urgent troubles, but now this is the thing that bothers me the most about my divorce.

  • I didn’t find CL right away. I don’t remember what I typed into Google, but I was sent down a rabbit hole about the narcissistic abuse cycle. It was life saving. I’m glad I didn’t find the RIC, but as a pastor’s kid, I think that their influence is what kept me investing into a mediocre marriage for 20 years.

  • i am brand spanking new to this site and absolutely LOVE it. i am just now, after 18 yrs, understanding WTF was going on for so many of those years. a long divorced friend hooked me up to your site, & the 1st blog i read, was about Emotional Cheating; That finally vindicated everything i had thought, felt and VOICED over the years. unbelievable. and now that we are in the midst/final stages of getting divorced, i find out about more infidelity – that i suspected, but could never prove. Asshole was cheating on me around his group of friends. i’m sorry they didn’t tell me sooner, but at least they did. i didn’t think i was THAT stupid, but ……

    i have not delved into your resources as yet, but the replies are so helpful. oh, and never clean up the curse words. Maybe have a warning, that if a potential reader doesn’t care for cussing, they should maybe look to another site, or put on earmuffs while they read.

    The one thing i am having trouble with, and yeah, i’m the last of the boomers, is all the acronyms. i am figuring out some of them, but some leave me scratching my head. And Google isn’t always helpful when out of context. I have started a cheat sheet, bc my brain just cannot handle that information, in the midst of my divorce & caring for my parents. But, i do want to fully understand what everyone is saying. If you already have a ‘magic decoder ring’ section, i apologize, but i will look for it, even as i save shit on my word doc….

    • Speaking of the cursing on here—-several years ago, I came across an article recommending sites to visit if you needed help getting past the horrors of cheating/being associated with a narcissist.

      There were three listed: One I can’t recall the name of, Lady with a Truck and Chumplady. There was a ‘warning’ that swearing ensued on Chumplady’s site. I said “In that case, I am all in!” immediately came here and years later (I am at Meh), I still lurk and comment now and then.

      Lol, I came for the cussing and the incredible advice and wonderful people got me to stay!!

      • Haha – On the subject of cursing –

        I’m an older person myself and I did a little clutching of the pearls when I first started reading this site. Many people – women, mostly – in my generation don’t use the F-word in daily conversation (and if used at all, MAYBE once in a decade?) but I know that younger generations are comfortable with using it multiple times daily.

        I participate on an international message board (not cheating related) and the Brits call everyone, men and women, the C-word constantly, and I must admit that was a little hard to get used to also!

        I would amend chumpchampAMF’s very good suggestion:

        Yes, do “have a warning” for the new visitor that “doesn’t care for cussing” – but I would not suggest they go elsewhere because there really isn’t any other site that is as truthful and, at the same time, wonderfully (healingly!) funny about this experience as Chump Lady.

        I think the warning should say something about how you might not feel comfortable at first with the swearing, but please give it a chance because you will come to see that the cursing helps express the anger (so justified!) that can actually help you to break free. It takes some getting used to but you won’t regret spending time reading and getting support and encouragement here!

        Older people who don’t swear need CL and CN too!

  • It’s tough, because I don’t think anybody will use your resources until they’re ready for it. That said, your book, and this site, as well as have been the most helpful resources I’ve utilized. But again, until you’re ready to re-consider reconciliation, you’ll completely disregard it.

    That said, maybe a resource of local folks who have been through it to talk to in person. Since I left, I’ve talked with a handful of people in person who were in similar situations and feel I was really able to help them and talk some sense into them. Most people (from my experience) are too timid to share hard truths.

    • Daniel – You are spot on that people will only use the resources here when they are ready.

      I came across CL several times when I was doing the pick-me dance. I remember first reading it and thinking, “Wow. This is not helpful to me at this time, but I appreciate that I feel some validation of my feelings in the midst of this infidelity.”

      I was looking for resources to save my marriage, not tear it down.

      It wasn’t until my ex left to be with the OW that a social worker who supports my son, who has autism, gave me the proverbial smack upside my head when she saw that I was still being so nicey-nice with my ex after what he had done (still hoping that if I could be dignified in the separation, he would be so impressed with the dignity I demonstrates that he would want to come home again to live the great life I envisioned we could still have). My son was in crisis when the separation took place and my ex was ignoring it. He was more concerned with believing that he didn’t do anything that would be detrimental to the kids and that they are resilient, and so he was choosing to ignore my son’s needs.

      The social worker told me to wake up and see that the man I thought was my husband is gone – dead. What now exists is a selfish man who only cares about his own happiness and that our son is suffering because of it. She recommended two things: (1) ChumpLady and (2) a really good family counsellor who specializes in kids with autism.

      ChumpLady taught me to go grey rock. And as soon as I did, my ex’s treatment of me worsened. He realized that faking nice around me was no longer having an effect in capturing my rapt attention. The message was clear that I am no longer interested in being his friend, and the real him emerged. Thank God. It may not be pleasant but I would rather deal with real.

      The family counsellor put my ex in his place. The 50/50 arrangement that he insisted on so that he didn’t have to pay child support was deemed inappropriate for our son and the transitions in his sleep schedule needed to be minimized. Long story, short, I now have it in writing that the kids are with me 65-68% of the time, which means I provide them stability and minimize what goes on over at his place.

      ChumpLady needs to be here when those who are ready need it. Another narrative needs to exist and she fills the void.

  • So thrilled for you CL that you are able to take your creation to the next level.

    I definitely love a resources area – sub-divided topics.

    Testimonials are always great.

    – an area that reviews bad sites/resources – points out the dangerous psychology, false logic, etc – helps fellow chumps develop some more skills at identifying bad advice
    – the checklist of what to do after D-Day – I know you started that already and had a post not long ago about adding to it
    – an area for inspirational memes, quotes, clips that provides affirmations and self-esteem building
    – a faith-based area – with contributions of faith-based teachings and advice from varying religious perspectives (although none of the major world’s religions supports adultery), prayers, talks
    – an area for mental health – providing resources explaining trauma, coping strategies, meditative practices, therapies, self-care advice
    – an area for parenting resources – how to parent in high conflict situations, infidelity, parallel parenting, co-parenting (circumstances where it is feasible), how to be the sane and responsible parent when the other is not

    So much of this already goes on here – just a matter of consolidating it or linking it.

    Thank you so much for what you do. Many blessings to you.

  • That’s a lot of very good suggestions! I know I’ve been reading this blog a lot and the area where I still have a lot of questions is co-parenting. I was helped a lot by fellow chumps but the info is buried somewhere in a discussion below one blog post of which it wasn’t the topic.

  • Thank you for asking.

    To assist in finding the most critical early information readily, I would suggest:

    Have a banner with links to:

    1. The key articles: I would focus these on the critical early information (cheaters decoded, cake, naugahyde, etc but would not include “your walls will sing again” as one wants immediate assistance in crisis on this button. I would also recommend adding the 3 channels and other key articles that help the reader understand the mindfuck. More on the myth of “my cheater is different”. Hopium. Switzerland friends. Smear Campaign.

    2. Do This Now: this would basically say–it will take a while to understand but trust me and do this now (grey rock, get ducks in row). Then provide specifics on exactly what to do. I think a section that gives clear and concrete step-by-step instructions in temporal order of how to get those ducks lined up would be invaluable.

    3. Don’t Do This–similar to above but explicit guidance on what not to do and more importantly what will happen when you fail and do it anyway (this helps the reader with hopium recognize the pattern more quickly as we all fail and then eventually recognize that our cheater is not different)

    4. Books Link –as mentioned above

    5. Resources to great websites and podcasts with links. There are really great resources out there. George Simon, Infidelity Help Group. Little Shaman, Narcwise, Narcsite(maybe controversial but I think accurate), etc

    6. Parenting with the Narcissist tab–this is so critical both early and later. What to say at the start, how to manage the hostage situation, document everything and how to do do (another chump wrote to me with excellent advice about daily recordkeeping that was critical in court), how not to get sucked in. What to expect (children may be angry with sane parent as they are the only rock), etc

    7. Advice about the legal process –I realize you cannot give legal advice but strategy is key. How to find a lawyer, conflict the local bulldogs, not to use a lawyer as a therapist, ways to rein in costs, when to fire your lawyer (this is not on the site but important–chumps are vulnerable and sharky lawyers know it), strategies for court, surviving the emotional rollercoaster of the legal system

    8. Testimonials–great idea!

    Excellent site that will only become better.

    And figure out some way to direct more traffic to your site before the RIC sites snag the innocents.

    • One more thing: It would be fantastic to have a one or two page article that explains narcissism (esp covert charming type) that one could give to friends and family who haven’t seen through the narcissist or experienced narcissistic abuse. There is nothing accessible and convincing out there that is useful for non-victims/survivors.

    • I watched that video. WOW! Dr. Durvasula is forceful in calling b.s. on the “sex addiction” nonsense.

      Thanks for sharing!

  • In the current Resources tab, there is an acronym that bugs me for some reason: WS wayward spouse.
    This term is used consistently on RIC sites.
    Wayward seems so benign and almost conveys an “oopsy” vibe, like the cheaters just took a wrong turn by accident and either fell into or onto another person’s genitals.
    Makes the cheater sound like a little lost lamb who strayed from the herd, when in fact the cheater is more like a predator who rips and tears into the heart of their loving partner.

    • We’ve covered that here. 😀 There is no such thing as “Wayward”. They are “timid forest creatures” Ha ha!

  • Any book, article or blog post by Bill Eddy at the High Conflict Institute (HCI) is a fabulous resource! HCI has conscience co-parenting materials that do not ignore the Cluster B realities. Mr. Eddy also validates the harsh realities of the family court system (his background = both an attorney and a social worker). Between HCI and CL/CN, four years out from finally leaving, I am 90% to meh!

  • Chump Lady, I think I’ve told you this before but reading your book was the first step to recovery for me. It was the “stupid shit cheaters say” that really helped me begin the journey to self love again. I was bouncing back and forth between strident anger at everything my ex ever said or did and total self-blame feeling that I must have caused this because of the gaslighting. But reading all of his lines in your book was so eye-opening. Those weren’t deep revelations he was feeding me, of how I had been inadequate and mis-interpreted our life together. That was all just…stupid shit cheaters say. Of course, I didn’t pop out of my funk never to return, but the cycles between anger and self-blame were punctuated by periods of normality. In one of my relapses, I found this site. And now I come here, just because it is so validating but the book–that was my first step to recovery.

    • This^^^^^^ on so many levels.

      My lightbulb finally went off, making me realize cheaters are interchangeable and nothing they say is the truth. It reaffirmed that he didn’t meet his “soul mate”, that I wasn’t responsible for his unhappiness, and I did bring value to my marriage. They are very uncreative bastards.

  • It’s been almost exactly 4 years since I finally fell out of spackle and tap dance mode and started to take my life back. I found Chumplady shortly thereafter by sheer accident late night googling for answers, incites and assistance.

    Chumplady got me through some dark, dark days of despair. Gave me a ray of hope. And I’ll be darned but I found Meh last Tuesday! I still visit here regularly for reminders, the community, and to Pay it Forward with my own experience and lessons learned.

    Thank you Tracy and ChumpLady Community!

  • Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. It was extremely helpful in healing, and beginning to understand/correct some of my bizarre choices and behaviors during my relationship with the Lying Cheating Bastard.
    Disclaimer: this is not about “owning my part” but about controlling the only thing I can (myself), fixing my picker and establishing healthy boundaries.

  • Today is my four year “dumpaversary ” so it is a perfect time for a testimonial for me. I didn’t discover this site or Tracy’s book til months AFTER my jackass TEXTED me in the middle of the night to live with his girlfriend. On our 10th wedding anniversary. With 3 kids in 3 different schools. And me with 2 jobs. I was crushed. I had been pick me dancing for years but didn’t realize it. Reading the book and being on this site helped me identify so many behavior patterns typical of the narcissist, and helped me realize that this person was not who i thought he was.
    At that time I couldn’t see a future for myself without him. Now I am grateful every day for my life. I love my children, my work, and the fact that I no longer have to try to take care of someone who delights in the harm he does to others. Thank you all.

  • Hello CL. As a male chump I can only speak to my experience. I wasn’t aware that I was being cheated on initially. I got the ILYBINILWY speech and had not clue I was performing a pick me dance for months because I didn’t know what a pick me dance was.

    While I’ve read a number of good books your book and block is what gave me my MIGHTY to stand up for myself. My suggestion would be to improve SEO for your blogs. I recently did this at our online store and found that the H1 and H2 tags were not always assigned correctly. We used a program called YOAST SEO plugin and training and id did wonders for our Google results.

    My biggest hope is that more people can find you in their hour of need and during their recovery. Originally I didn’t click on your site or book because I didn’t think I was being cheated on. Even after I knew she was cheating, it wasn’t until I read your post on “affair fog” and “ILYBINILWY” (both brilliantly done) that I finally found my MIGHTY and started taking care of my future without my STBXW. I wished I had clicked on it earlier but I thought it was only for women.

    The community was wonderful but I know it’s expensive and time consuming to maintain. The Reddit isn’t quite the same. I think it lacks the intimacy of the original forum. I just signed up for the Facebook page but I might be reluctant to use this for privacy reasons. The original community forum held me up at some very dark moments in my life. Some amazing male chumps who kicked my ass when I didn’t give myself enough credit for being a good dad and some amazing female chumps who offered perspective and advice that was so valuable to me.

    I will keep forwarding your book and your blogs. I already think what you’ve created is amazing and I hope in your site redesign more people find you. You are truly a life saver.

    • CL:

      Every suggestion posted thus far has been excellent, so I won’t add to the fray.

      My only comment is this… IMO, the RIC is the single most destructive force out there for marriages in trouble. When my XH suddenly moved out, I went into the typical panic mode, completely shocked at how someone could blow up a 40-year marriage as easily as changing his underwear. Of course, at that time, the existence of Married Howorker (just another OW in what turned out to be a clown car full of APs) was still a secret. XH reluctantly agreed to go to counseling, although, unbeknownst to me, he had no intention of reconciling; he was simply hoping that counseling would pave the way for us to remain “friends“ after the big discard. Inside of 8 weeks, we blew through four different counselors (all of his choosing) because they dispensed nothing but expensive yet useless advice. We finally ended up in the office of a fantastic therapist, but by then, XH was so deep into limerence with MH that he was done.

      If I should ever get married again — yes, I am still a believer in marriage — and that relationship falls into a dark hole, I will have to think long and hard about whether or not marriage counseling is a smart path to follow. If you don’t have both partners on the same page, and you’re not working with a truly remarkable therapist, you might as well hang up your spurs right now. Cut your losses sooner rather than later, and spend that time, energy and money getting back on your feet financially, emotionally and mentally.

      • Yes! It’s strange how most folks in our society don’t automatically equate when “seemingly normal, happily married man suddenly moves out” it is because 90% of the damn time he has been having an affair, and is leaving now that he has Schmoopie all lined up. No, he does not have a brain tumor or a midlife crisis. He is a cheeeeeeeter! I WISH someone had taught me that. Yes, RIC is the single most destructive force. A counselor worth their salt would know the signs of cheating and refuse to treat an identified cheater/chump pattern couple.

    • Maybe a section for us Male Chumps. So much information is tailored for women. We have our own unique challenges. DNA tests, etc.

    • I agree with you about the reddit….you sound more tech savvy than me….have you used the chat? I’ve seen comments that several early posters are now in the chat room instead. Don’t know how to use that myself.

  • My two go to’s are Leave a Cheater Gain a Life( I now gift it to those who need it, have to buy more copies for this purpose), And Pychopath Free( a real 2×4 to the head about what actuall the f.. happened to me). I think maybe a page with some simple legal tips from how to choose a lawyer that is not a narc( mine was it was awful but I stuck it out because I couldn’t afford to start over) to tips on what should be included and for gods sake please tell people to get a post nup if they are going to attempt wreckonciliation( this one thing cost me my retirement savings at 56).

    • I second Psychopath Free by Jackson MacKenzie. All the puzzle pieces about my roller coaster relationship fell into place while reading that book.

      I had no clue about Cluster B personality disorders until a couple weeks after Dday. I was shocked to learn there are really broken people walking among us and pretending they’re normal, and I had collected many of these throughout the years. They’re all gone now : )

  • I would happily provide a testimony and that and all the other ideas posted are awesome. BUT no one can see your old or new site if they don’t know about it.

    To really get CL out there you have to find a way to get to the top of the search. The RIC sites still come up before yours when you google the most popular questions. Just my two cents.

  • It’s a very dark book but Man’s Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl helped me through some very difficult days. It was actually recommended to me on an RIC site.

    It reassured me that despite what I was going through that there was indeed a way through it and out the other side.


  • I have what I think is a pretty good idea.
    Maybe run posts about how to FUCKWIT proof your marriage. Forget the affair proof. No one just seems to have an affair. Affairs seem to have so much more than just getting strange. One very commonality I see from both men and women CHUMPS is the financial difficulties that always follow. 2 to 10 years of hardship from having to start all over from scratch. The emotional abuse and betrayal is friggin hard enough let alone worrying about eating and having a roof over your head. So I suggest posts about not necessarily a prenup. But how a couple should keep finances separated. Now I know this would be more difficult for a wife or even a husband that are home makers to accomplish. Child rears and home makers are the ones making the greatest sacrifice and are really betting on the SO to be faithful and have the ffamily’s best interest at heart.
    Knowing what I know now and having put my financial nuts on the line for a FUCKWIT. I would recommend to any man or woman going into a marriage. Keep separate checking accounts. Never have a joint credit card. Always monitor your credit and ask the same of your spouse to see theirs. Only joint financial venture should be a mortgage. If your ass wants a mercedes? Get a better paying job. Lol. Finish at least a minimal degree. I think too many people get a higher degree for self gratification and do almost nothing to gain financially from them. PhD for sense of accomplishment can always come later in life. There’s alot more. I just wanted to touch on the MAJOR hardship that most female and male chumps face once they discover the affair and how their trust put them in a very bad way and left them with very few choices upon DDAY.

    • Problem is, at least in Colorado, that any debt acquired during the marriage is joint. My XW had 10,000’s in secret CC debt. I had to pay half of it. I have since remarried and we have separate checking accounts plus a joint account to pay bills.

      • Same here. My XW wracked up credit card debt and unpaid taxes (from a business) that I was oblivious of. With that said, don’t depend on the “separate” finances to insulate you from future damage unless it’s in writing. My ex-wife and I agreed to separate finances, at HER urging, but it wasn’t in writing and, in the end, turned out to be a ploy to allow her to live a free-wheeling lifestyle (while I sacrificed) and ultimately, when she left and didn’t have two nickles to rub together, she took half of everything I’d saved over the years including personal savings, retirement and an account I set up for our daughter (for her first home).

        • I hear ya Captain. Went thru something very similar. Very.
          Nothing is fool proof. Of course we trusting chumps find out way to late. But just the idea of seeing your SO credit report 2x a year?
          That certainly gives one a chance to pull the chord much sooner.
          It’s just a suggestion of one of the many ideas I have for anyone entering a marriage. Italy help keep alot of couples honest with each other. Lol. In some states common law will bind you to your SO debts. This is just for a quicker financial recovery instead of 5 to 10 years to repair a credit score so you can over on and buy your own home again for example. More and more people are doing background checks which CL has mentioned here a few times.

      • Of course you are correct. That is the law in many states.
        However seeing each other credit reports bI annually could certainly help and prevent any further financial abuse.

        • “If your ass wants a mercedes? Get a better paying job.” Hell ain’t that the truth. I wish I had kept my finances separate from my ex then he could have bought all his “boys toys” with his own frickin’ money instead of me having to pay for it. All his goddamn debts and I ended up with them all just to get rid of him. Still, even at double the cost it was worth it to get rid of him! He’s Schmoopie’s problem now!

          • Attie, that sucks. Hopefully it wasn’t too much debt. I mentioned money 1st because when you gotta drop the cheaters we have to move on. It’s very difficult to start over carrying a cheaters load too. I see here , mostly chump ed women, who are stuck in time for a while and can’t put their best foot forward. It’s not just money as you know. When my XW bailed with AP I was the one paying the check for her party. Lol. KARMA really got her though. Affair didn’t work out. AP turned out to not be what he appeared. 3 DUIS, drug arrest, DV arrest, probation violations. She’s stuck renting a house now and barely scrapes by. Child support ended earlier this year. In the years I was paying she never did anything to improve her life. She makes very little and supports expensive drinking and Rx pill habits. Our son was telling me she’s frustrated she can find a decent man to be with. She had 2 but they both figured her problems out pretty fast and hauled ass. I laugh my ass off inside when he tells me this stuff. Our son went off to the army and she hits him up for money. HE HASN’T EVEN FINISHED BASIC YET!!!I gave him the talk. Told him you can send her whatever you want. She will tell you it’s for bills, food, utilites….. But son, 6oull notice the drinking and pills won’t go away and that’s what you’re really paying for. Just trying to guide him away from the fantom obligation that he feels he should do that. Money isn’t the whole FUCKWIT proof I have in mind but it’s a big chunk of it. Lol. Adios.

  • Great news, CL.
    I have a suggestion: since many chumps here or their children have suicidal ideation/have attempted suicide, it would be very helpful to have some information about where to get help, at least in the US, and to urge chumps from other countries to find help where they live ASAP. Abuse leads to depression, depression leads to suicidal thoughts or behaviors.
    In addition, I’ll be happy to provide testimonials in Spanish, both my own and those of people I’ve given your book to or directed to your site. And thank you so much for the proposed Spanish page!

  • I would like to see a regular column or section on the new CL site like “Fun Friday” but called, “Coparenting With a Fuckwit”. Last weeks “Spending Holidays With the Ex” was simular to what I am suggesting. Something where real life situations of coparenting are discussed, especially when no contact is difficult because of children.

  • How To Spot A Dangerous Man Before You Get Involved by Sandra L. Brown, M.A. (Also: Her online Living Recovery Program at is truly wonderful for healing.)

    One Mom’s Battle by Tina Swithin (And everything else she has ever written!)

    BIFF, and Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy

    The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist by Debbie Mirza

    Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft

    The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker

  • I agree, getting people to see your site more quickly than what it took me is really important.

    My suggestions are for keeping them there when they do find you. Right now on your home page, you have recent posts. What if you had a short list of the most relevant posts that would appeal to someone who has found your site but is still in reconciliation mode? For those people who have found your site “by accident” and might be turned off by “Leave a cheater” … Give them something quick to read about why it’s good to read your site. Maybe if you took key phrases the RIC industry uses and have short blurbs on why that won’t work. (Maybe if you duplicate phrases from the RIC, you’d get more exposure on the first page of Google? I don’t know.)

    Maybe also something about why even if it’s not NPD their abuser has, why the traits are similar … like a checklist of “Did this happen to you?”

    What I’m trying to say is I have no solution to how to get people to your site because I’m really a Luddite when it comes to that, but once they do find your site, how can you grab them quickly and get them to stay?

    Also, maybe a search option in the archives? Not so much searching for relevant words because they’d all come up if you put , but for subjects … So categorize each post.

    Maybe also a quick reference to people in danger, again like a checklist … what not to do?

    Thanks, Tracy, for everything you do.

  • Book resources:
    “How Can I Forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, The Freedom Not To” by Janis Abrahms Spring .
    This is an unusual one. Don’t let the first part of the title fool you. The book helped me to be ok with NOT maintaining a relationship with someone who was clearly bad for me. The book makes a big distinction between real contrition, and false contrition just to get what you want. It makes it clear the character change should be on the aggressor (the cheater), NOT the chump.
    If you’re being pelted with pressure from people, often religious groups, to “forgive,” when either the other person is making no effort, or you simply cannot ever trust this person again, this book is helpful. It was ok to walk away from someone who just shouldn’t be in your life.

    • I should add that apparently this woman has written another book on healing after an affair, and it sounds awful. For me, being able to walk away when I was told I was “unforgiving” and “heartless” and “holding someone to a standard of perfection” was hard.

  • Author Debbie Mirza:
    The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist: Recognizing the Traits and Finding Healing After Hidden Emotional and Psychological Abuse


    The Safest Place Possible: A Guide to Healing and Transformation

    Vikki Stark’s book mentioned above, too. And the following Youtubers on narcissism; Assc Direct, Stephanie Lyn Coaching, Angie Atkinson, and Kim Saeed

  • I like the idea of a launch page. It was intimidating at first here b/c I knew I wasn’t going to reconcile after D-Day, but I also had a lot of hope that I could coparent with a sense of grace, open communication, and from a shared love of the kids. Problem was I wasn’t ready to mourn the loss of our “family” and the loss of my marriage partner all at once. I had to sort of drop the marriage partner first, then drop the idea of family not including kumbaya with XH and his AP. I think having some links to resources right away about coparenting and how it goes through phases and you’ll eventually find a detachment to your X and a resolve about how those kids are not damaged by no-contact and how to tell kids at different ages about why you don’t trust or respect the other person they live with. That would be helpful b/c it took a lot of asking on the forum and searching old posts to get past thinking people here were just confrontational from the start, and instead to the realization that being kumbaya is eating a shit-sandwich for the chump and kids and that no contact and honesty with the kids might be the best method for them and the chumps.

    I love the idea that you could scroll through people’s testimonials that this helped. Especially when there is so much about the reconciliation world out there and how to try to examine your traits as faults that helped caused the infidelity instead of your faults as yours that you can acknowledge and work on like all humans, but that those faults did NOT in the least cause or instigate someone else, who supposedly loves you, to have an affair.

  • I think pages and pages of testimonials would help. Hearing the full story of what chumps have experienced is reaffirming. As a newbie here years ago, I read pages of archives and started to notice there were many, many similarities. But a few, lived my exact life. When ever I waivers there was my doppelgänger. Who had survived, thrived and heading to Meh. On bad days I searched for their name. Chumps feel alone, this site tells us , nope. We are a nation

  • Yes to testimonials! I found your book in my local library about ten days after D-Day. (Thank goodness!) As a lesbian, I felt recognized when you included narratives in the book from members of the GLBTQ community. I knew from those narratives that I could find needed support in ChumpNation.

  • Further resources on cheating as domestic violence as well as domestic violence resources.

    But maybe some heads up regarding domestic violence resources. When I reached out to domestic violence shelters for help in the most dire of times, the counselors loved to inform me that cheating is not domestic violence…!!! Meanwhile, serial cheater ex was using cheating to put my life at risk, control my behavior, and coerce and threaten me into sex. Cheating was also the jumping board for serial cheater to physically threaten me in other ways: driving wrecklessly intentionally while I was in the car to threaten me into submission, physically keep me from sleeping, and at one point when I got out of the hospital, cheating was used to keep me from accessing my medication. Cheating was also how she caused a number of infections that I had assumed were UTIs but were probably STIs that the UTI antibiotics took care of. Not to mention, much of ex’s cheating was actually ex raping and sexually assaulting others while we were together.

    Cheating IS fucking domestic violence.

  • One more thing … very early on, before I found Chump Lady, I read a script/timeline someone (or two people?) had written detailing what happens in a relationship breakdown when one person is cheating, gaslighting, and sabotaging the other. It was both hilarious and amazingly accurate and I was blown away at how it perfectly portrayed my situation. I have been searching for it since, and can’t find it. Does anyone remember it from 5 years ago? I would include that as a resource because it showed me that I wasn’t alone.

    I wonder if it was The Script by Landers and Mainzer (2005). I found “Midlife for Dummies” by the Midlife Club helpful, too.

    By the way, when I googled “cheater affair timeline script”, Chump Lady was the second hit on the first page!!!

  • The Mindful Way Through Depression—book and CD by John Kabat Zinn. That, plus riding my bike like a fiend, helped me weather the storm without taking antidepressant meds.

    IMO, antidepressant meds can be a double-edged sword. Generally, a person only makes difficult changes – – like dumping an asshole spouse – – when the existing situation is sufficiently uncomfortable. Numbing the pain with antidepressants might have led me to remain stuck in a bad situation.

    After all, situational depression in the face of profound betrayal is a normal, healthy reaction to an extraordinary situation. I don’t know that one should or could try to medicate away normal & healthy feelings. Normal and healthy feelings are trying to tell you something useful, and trying to make you do something about it.

    • I would call that unhappiness, not depression. Anti-depressant meds are often a huge help when we are so stuck or low energy that we can’t do what we know we need to do to save ourselves. They shouldn’t ‘numb the pain’ and rarely do; they aren’t happy pills, nor deadening of our very real emotions, like the Valium that used to be prescribed to unhappy women.

      Absolutely if we CAN run and meditate, and if that is enough to help us, that’s a better option than meds. But no one should be discouraged from trying anti-depressants when they need them.

  • I do believe a section on parenting with a narc would be good as there are so many things a person goes through even after they leave a cheater! As said earlier the hostage holding of children. Also a big one the constant pressure from Narc to alienate children. Anyone who has made it through successfully would be encouraging.

  • I don’t know if it’s possible, but I often want to re-read my comments or someone else’s comments from the archives and wish I could pull up past comments with a search by a username.

  • When Sparkledick was caught, I called my “big sister” who is his cousin. She told me to attend a Second Saturday Workshop. I found one within 3 weeks and learned so much to protect myself , my children, and assets. Best thing I ever did

  • I love Chump Lady and Chump Nation, the funniest and smartest people I know. CL wasn’t around when I got the discard but I sure wish she had been. Would have saved me years of untangling the skein. After reading her book and here I realized that cheaters are all the same. People with very poor character.

    Another testimonial about this place. I have met and made two phenomenal chump friends in person from this site. We talk, we hang out and stay at each other’s homes and plan fun things to do in the future.

  • Uncoupling by Diane Vaughn. Perhaps the only truly objective book out there.

    It makes ZERO comment about skeins of fuckedupness; it is a party-neutral sociological study, written in extremely readable style, about what *literally* happens when couples break up.

  • Looking forward to the changes, CL!

    Turning the volume up on Chump recovery methods, tools would be welcomed.
    Adding a focus on specific concepts or readings.
    Moving away from the format of: “letter to editor”, response, committee chimes in- since it has a tendency to dissolve into chump war stories and cross-talk, that loses the interest of the group.
    Some of the most widely responded to posts were rooted in humor and creativity-which is so healing.
    People feel very heard/seen here, a rarity in the online forum spheres.
    Thank you for all of your hard work. Really. It’s a LOT of work.

    • ‘Moving away from the format of: “letter to editor”, response, committee chimes in- since it has a tendency to dissolve into chump war stories and cross-talk, that loses the interest of the group.’

      I have to respectfully disagree: one of the most comforting things I have found is reading everyone’s experiences. I pretty much read all the comments on every post and I get as much out of them as I do Chumplady’s answers. This is because it has made me feel so alone/freaky, because time and time again people have the same story that proves that cheaters are disordered, boring and banal in their lack of originality in the shit they pull, even though the ‘volume’ is turned up or down on the lengths they’ll go to devalue their chumps. People share their experiences as well as their insights that help me process my own, and I think this is one of the most valuable parts of the site, the community and support that the many clever, funny, insightful, kickass, brave, might Chump Nation members share and use to uplift new and old members alike every day. I’ve been here three years and have seen many new chumps limp in, bruised and raw, and be comforted and fortified by the Nation, and uplifted by those that have been through the valley and come to Meh and still check in or stick around daily to let the walking wounded know there is life after infidelity, and not just surviving but thriving.

        • Stig,

          I second what you have expressed above.

          I have learned so much from all that is shared and would hate that to go away. Each person adds to my ‘recovery’ and I too love all the different personalities as well as the variance in ages and I love that men are here sharing openly. I would hate to not hear their voices.

      • Late to the party, but I add to this. I like that the comments add weight to the topic. I would not have felt so included with a global crew if it was just CL & not CN chiming in.

        I’ll also add that I’m resistant to “clicking off site” to Reddit or another avenue. Consolidation of “all the options” in the one place has a strong appeal.

  • Maybe Stages. Discovery – self care!, Decisions, Action – checklist, Surviving (NC rocks! sane-parenting etc), Thriving – Gaining a life (know there’s overlap and it’s not linear but with the idea of progression)

    Love the idea of links to recommended resources (books, music, video). Also found the research stuff about characteristics of cheaters, outcomes etc of interest not so much to unravel the skein as to learn.

  • When I recommend your site I always need to let people know to take a look at the bottom of the page for the resources to make sure people get the basics and intro as they are the best foundation to launch your other stuff and the daily advice from. Perhaps a button at the top so you’ve just arrived here/been cheated on, here’s what you need to know about cheaters and cheating and a click through to your main precepts about cheating/the cheating mind and here’s what you need to do first. And the book. Something like you’re in shock you’ve just been blindsided or you’ve had your suspicions. Perhaps a Dday self-care list, financials, get support, lawyer up get evidence etc get safe, buy the book, read the field guide to cheater mindset and tactics/ wgat to expect/do next and then link to the forums or ask a question (faqs) or write to me. Basically your core concepts presented first.

  • What someone already touched on – better SEO would do wonders for this site. I’d also be careful with site design. Site speed is so important and lots of scripts, slide shows can really bog down your site loading speed. Be sure that graphic files are optimized and that important parts load first, graphics last. Slow sites don’t just turn away people, it also makes search engines ignore you more.

    Also, making archives easy to search.

    That said, for the landing page I think much more front and center information about narcissistic behavior – actual examples of the fuckwittery would help people open their eyes faster to what they are dealing with. Particularly subtle abuse. When you read something where you go “OMG this describes my SO, our relationship perfectly….and wait a minute….I didn’t cause it?….” I think people will keep reading more.

    Terms like narcissist, gaslighting, etc though might not be the best to focus on because many people who are dealing with it initially have never actually thought about these terms or know what they are. They are more likely to relate to anecdotes and examples which then lead them to the explanation of what they are dealing with and those terms.

    I found this site via another site where someone posted a link to one of the blogs. I will be honest though that initially I didn’t find it helpful because I wasn’t emotionally there. The whole “you are a chump” was a put off as well.It implies that you are stupid and quite frankly, at the most vulnerable and hurting moment, it’s not a message that resonated. I came around when I was ready and in a more stable emotional space and then the site read differently. But in that time in between, I actually did a lot of searching and reading up on behavior, narcissistic behavior, etc. I basically educated myself with what I’m dealing with and when I came back here to take a second look, I was already well versed in the problem and in a calmer space emotionally. Then the site made sense and I actually connected to it. So I think there needs to be that bridge here between a)discovery to b)what is this behavior to finally c) chump nation.

    On that note, RIC won’t disappear because they have and will always prey on people who are still going through denial. Acceptance is a winding road and this site is more like a destination toward the end of it. Many people here have gone through multiple dday’s before finally finally deciding it’s enough. You really can’t force that process and how long it takes is individual. People will only listen to the advice here once they are ready for it.

    • You can’t force it, for sure. But having more realistic info available is so important! When the only info you’ve heard of before being cheated on yourself is RIC and the only info when you’re in that state of shock is RIC, I think it actually stalls and slows that process.

      That’s why I think the metrics are so important, and a really accessible front page, like you say, Foolish. Easing people in to understanding the essentials and understanding that this DOES apply to them can help speed things up. We may not want to believe it applies to us, initially, but at least we know GNIC exists, and gas-lighting, and so might recognize it earlier.

  • I would like to see an acronym dictionary. When you are new it is hard to read the posts that have lots of CL, CN, RIC, LACGAL, OW, AP…..

    My testimony would be that I was at the end of my rope, contemplating suicide, when by the grace of the universe I came across this blog. Tracy’s book is unlike any other book out there on infidelity. While it is funny and snarky, it also reminds us chumps that we have the right…the OBLIGATION…to set boundaries and enforce them. It also brilliantly illustrates that cheaters my choices, not mistakes, and everyone is responsible for their choices. I have been divorced for over 6 years now, and I still come for my daily dose of Chump Nation so I never lose what I have gained by finding this blog, book, and now Facebook Group. Thank you, Tracy, for blazing trail of mightiness for us to follow.

  • Before I found CL, “Will I Ever Be Free of You: Navigating a High Conflict Divorce” by Karyl McBride helped me A LOT in my actual divorce process.

    I also love the idea of a “List of Things to Do RIGHT NOW” for those in crisis mode – see a lawyer, get the financial copies, etc. A printable or downloadable version would have been great to have so I could see that my heartbroken disaster of a self was making progress on something in those early days.

    Take a shower, eat a sandwich, do a load of laundry, hug your kid, etc. Even including simple little things on that list to help the newly chumped keep moving forward and not get stuck. Checking off little boxes at the end of the day may be just enough to help avoid feeling paralyzed.

  • Don’t know if someone has already suggested this resource as I haven’t read all comments, but I found it very helpful in figuring out what I was dealing with…H.G.Tudor Narcsite.
    A blog written by a self confessed narcissist. He has also written many books on the topic and on how to sever ties .Even though cognitively I grasped what I was dealing with, I found it difficult to emotionally detach and maintain NC. This site helped me to do that. It’s very dark but very helpful, especially if you’re enmeshed with a personality disordered wingnut.

  • I like the idea of a. definitions page. Gaslighting- definition. Narcissism- definition. Emotional abuse- definition. Emotional affair- definition, financial abuse- definition, mediation- definition, etc

  • Chump Lady isn’t just for married victims of cheating. The advice on this site is invaluable when a partner/boyfriend/girlfriend cheats. I wasn’t married to my ex, but I was abused in many of the ways that others here were. I need to fix my picker. I need to know what red flags look like. So, if a person searches for “I think my girlfriend is cheating.” Chump Lady should come up in the search results the same as if they searched for “I think my wife is cheating.”

    • Totally agree! That’s how I found this page. Boyfriend of 10 years was cheating. Turns out he was a serial cheater. Chump Lady was so direct and all the posts just aired the same sentiments, made me feel like I wasn’t crazy…that there are more like me. I felt safe here and after reading so many comments was laughing through my tears!

      Married people aren’t the only ones who get chumped!

  • Perhaps an “Inspirational Quotes” subsection of testimonials:

    Quotes, helpful things your friends said, and/or bible verses for a calendar year.

    Sometimes repeating an inspirational saying or a validating comment, saved me–minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour & day-by-day.

    • Quote that helped me today:

      I’m in troubled waters because my enemies can’t swim (which I read as….leaving the unhealthy people in my life behind as I swim toward calm waters and the sandy shore, where I will arrive on a Tuesday).

  • The book “Should I Stay Or Should I Go” by Dr Ramani Durvasula really helped me. It’s on my night stand, next to LACGAL.

  • So many books.

    Psychopath Free and Whole Again – Jackson MacKenzie

    Why Does He Do That? Inside the Mind of Angry and Controlling Men – Lundy Bancroft

    The Everything Guide to Narcissistic Personality Disorder. (This ones a good starter straight after D Day).

    CPTSD – Pete Walker

    The Tao of Fully Feeling – Pete Walker

    I’ve got plenty more but these are my must haves.

    And a testimonial…

    Tracy, I took a lot of your humour into my therapy with me. Boy did my psychologist and I have a laugh. To be going through such darkness, and have the light and realism of CL and CN to underline my DBT, was a gift. Dialectical Behaviour Therapy is about reframing toxic into beautiful gifts that turn your life around. That’s what you did. I seriously would have been stuck in endless cycles of emotional flashbacks and weak boundaries (taking toxic back) but instead got my life and ability to love back. Laughter really is the best medicine.

  • I think the #1 reason that chumps try to make it work is that they are terrified about what divorce means for their children. The fear of what this would mean for the kids drove me to months of insanity, thinking that I could somehow be OK with my wife’s infidelity and nascent lesbianism. I would love information and success stories about parenting with cheaters.

    Cheating is abuse. When I read Tracey’s excellent column about this, it hit me right between the eyes. I was abused, and I should not put up with this shit any more. Putting this message front and center would do a lot.

    More information slamming the RIC — and call out their stupidity directly. (Hey, it’s First Amendment protected speech!). Love ya, Mort Fertel. I even considered Michelle Weiner-Davis’s two-day “in person” sessions with my wife, who had zero desire to go. Michelle charges $10,000 for her nonsense. I was hitting the hopium hard.

  • I did not read all the suggestions yet, so pardon if this is a repeat.
    The thing that FINALLY convinced me that I was, indeed, a TOTAL CHUMP, was when I read two things posted by
    1. “Have you ever had an out of character outburst toward your cheater, and your isolated reaction was used against you, publicly, for years?”
    2. “As a super chump, during the discard you will write pages and pages of heartfelt emails, trying to explain. The cheater will reply in sentences. These can be used as proof against you (see statement #1).
    (My emails were sent by cheater to his family, describing how much “fun” these were.)
    3. No matter how many therapies, letters of apology, books and websites the chump employs, the cheater will NEVER resolve any issues, just recycle them into critiques as needed.”

    It was not until I read those statements, and saw myself in them, and how pathetic and useless it really was, did I actually believe THE PROBLEM WAS NOT ME, all along.
    It was more sad than a relief.

    I think instead of testimonials, a “You might be a chump if…” pages were posted.
    I think we see a connection with others who have been there and done that.

    Hence, my screen name (If you are going to be perpetually cast an evil villain, as opposed to his victim-hood, better pick a GOOD evil villain name.) Enter; Magneto.

    • Dear CL,
      I also have not read all the comments, but I will be sure to read them later.
      I often think about Chumps here who contribute posts fairly often and I cannot help but see the great progress of so many.
      They really are amazing.
      It makes me wonder if there was some way that on certain days you could possibly feature a particular Chump and walk with her/him through their maze, from DDay, in the middle of chaos, then finally seeing some light, to an amazing, coming out ahead, coming out of the fog and into the light. I have witnessed this here, many many times. Some names that come to mind are Mother Chumper99, Martha, Kintsugi, Mighty Momma Bear, and so many others. Perhaps some of their postings from the different stages could be reposted.
      To me this says a million, zillion words. They offer hope, they offer support, love and kindness. They show progress, they show survival from hell, sometimes even to the land of meh,
      I hope this makes some sense.
      I am going to hit send as I often ramble for too long and my posts vanish.

    • Point 3 really resonates with me. When I sent websites, book excerpts, etc., The answer I got was to stop reading books; I was being too rational, she was talking about feelings.

      Also, each time she recognized an effort I did a week later she turned it into a criticism. I solved issues with our couple? “Not in the right way”! I was the breadwinner, trusting and reliable? I was “materially present”. I did some effort for her? “I wasn’t romantic enough!”. It took me months to identify the pattern. I got it know. Solve your issues as you see fit my dear, you made it plain clear Its not my job to help you anymore.

      • Oh my, does this remind me of times that he started to freak out over kind things that I was doing to try to save the marriage (and just be a better person myself). I couldn’t understand how he was finding so much fault in what I was doing, it was so illogical.

        When we were in marriage counselling (mind you I had learned that he was still seeing this “friend” that I discovered about five months before and he claimed that nothing physical had happened), I decided that I was going to write him a note in his work lunch every day for 30 days. Everyday, I was going to acknowledge something that I loved about him, past and present. The first couple of days, I got texts from him thanking me and telling me how lucky he was to have me. Within 20 days he started criticizing the notes. Accused me of only thinking of things from the past or just acknowledging how good he was as a father. I knew that I had made great effort to cover a spectrum of qualities (I had already made a list in advanced of what I wanted to write about).

        When I confronted him with the pile of notes that he had been saving in his drawer, I divided them into piles to show everything. That just got him angry and he accused me of always wanting to be right. It was all so crazy. What man wouldn’t be touched by letters written every day from his wife? How would this not be effective in moving someone’s heart to at least be kind in return?

        Well, a cheater obsessed with the OW wouldn’t be. I know that now. But damn if I didn’t keep writing those letters until I finished out 30 days, holding on to the notion that I would continue to do the “loving” thing without expectation of anything from him in return.

  • Book Ideas;

    Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous.

    I didn’t have to diagnose the x or get into debate as to whether or not sex is an addiction BUT what helped me tremendously, when a friend lent me her copy, was reading the authors story at the beginning. It described my x’s behavior to a ‘T’ and that one short chapter let me drop any blame I had in regards to his cheating. (I did not read the whole book – that chapter cinched it for me.)

    How Al-Anon Works.

    This is the ‘handbook’ for Al-Anon and it is designed for families and friend of alcoholics- drinking or sober. It is loaded with ideas for recovery – re-discovering ourselves, setting boundaries, very practical advice to use in a pinch.

    For me it is like LACFAL in that it describes the behavior and then has the suggested ways to deal with the issues you may be encountering.

    It is about for us – it is my opinion only that most attendees in Al-Anon meetings are chumps – don’t need to be married to a cheater to be a chump…

    How To Deal With High Conflict People.

    Short and to the point book with easy to read descriptions of what a HCP looks/acts like and how to respond in situations where contact is necessary.

    A good primer to go with grey rock tactics.

    In Sheep’s Clothing.

    Another short easy to read book on describing covert narcissists, AKA TFC.

    Thats it for now. If I think of anything else I shall add it on later.

    Good Luck.


    Thank you for all YOU do for us.

    All of these books were available at my local library so I didn’t have to spend a dime to check them out.

  • The book “The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist” by Debbie Mirza is a life saver for me. Whenever I get into untangling the 30 year skein I read this. It reminds me of the craziness and that I did not cause it. I’m a good person and worthy of love. Of course Chump Lady and Chump nation saved my life. That is not an understatement!

    Chumps are supposed to shut up and go away. We make non-chumps uncomfortable. It’s good to not be alone in this.

    Also our guy chump brothers need to speak up more on this site. Every so often I need to be reminded that there are good men out there.

    • Spoonriver

      There is a good interview of her on Youtube wherein she discusses her book too. I just watched it and have the book on order from the library thanks to someone posting the link here sometime earlier this week.

      I agree in that it described the TFC behavior perfectly and how insidious it is. I loved the way she compared the CPAN vs the overt narcissist in terms of their cunning.

      (I am also a survivor of serial cheating in a marriage (ha) that lasted about 30 yrs.)

    • Spoon river, I agree, but I also feel heartened to see that lately quite a few male chumps stepping forward to support new male arrivals on the site in daily posts. Perhaps a forum for males in the group, if they feel it is needed, supported by long-term Nation members if they feel comfortable to do that. All chumps have feelings and experiences in common, but I feel like male chumps do have concerns that they may want to address together, or can find comraderie with the experiences of other male chumps and their advice. Just a thought?

  • someone may have gotten technical above, but in case not:

    I think the site archt. & structure is pretty solid. I think adding categories such as the many listed above would “simply” mimic the blog article structure: there is the daily post and the archives which are also very helpful should you need to learn about your Switzerland friends (example).

    Testimonials could be from those who’ve reach MEH (aka: proof of gaining a life). Could be limited to 500 characters or something (there has to be an editing/posting role if this is added)

    Videos, music, links could be catagorized by topic but would also need to be “approved” somehow.

    BUT, i guess my point is that structurally, how this site is currently set up is great and can be duplicated with topics.

    Happy to help from a UX perspective if that helps.

  • Another resource for any chump dealing with female fuckwits: Dr. Tara Palmatier is aware of the added burden of bias. Our society, court system, and many police officers stupidly believe that a woman can’t be as abusive as a man. She also works with same sex couples.

  • Several Chumps have made this suggestion already, but I’ll echo it – I think the only real improvement, if possible, is to get Chumps here quicker/earlier in the process. I supposed that requires creating a larger outreach on the internet (and beyond!) so when folks (like me!) start looking for answer, they find CL and CN almost immediately. That’s key! Once they get here, they’ll stay — once you dip your chumpy toes in the CL/CN pool, you can’t help but wade in!

    Testimonial: I found CL via google search for “ILYBINILWY”. I read the relevant post and was hooked; went to the very beginning and ready every post (and the comments!) forward…and I’m SO GLAD I DID!

    • A good way to direct chumps to the lifesaving site quicker ? Add bumper stickers to your online store. Great conversation starter after you park your car.

      My library recently asked people to name books that have changed their life or made them wish they were a writer. Guess which book I reommended ? Tracy, you’re both a talented writer AND artist (life drawing and cartoons !). Thank you/Merci/Gracias/Grazie/Danke,etc.

  • Haven’t had a chance to read all the comments, so this may already be listed, but for me it would have been super helpful to have a recommendations page for professionals-who-get-it (lawyers, therapists, etc)? The process of figuring all that out while d-daying and still trying to parent was overwhelming. I did not love my lawyer (but I’m loving that the divorce is final!) and it took a couple tries to find a therapist I really clicked with. Never found a child therapist who wasn’t incompatible with my values, but my older son’s elementary school started running the Banana Splits program which he loves (it’s basically a child-focused support group for kids whose parents are separated or divorced, run by the school’s social worker).

    Another thing I would love is a “best of” highlights section from the comments. But I guess that would require a way for the community to select those…probably more for the subReddit, I guess?

  • For the referrals section: for chumps who enter into a heterosexual marriage and find out their spouse is cheating with the same sex, the Straight Spouse Network is an absolute lifesaver, since this experience comes with its own dimensions of mindfuck. They offer in-person and online support groups.

    Books – I really liked “Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist” by Margalis Fjelstad.

    Blogs – I found Melanie Tonia Evans’ blog about Narcissism helpful.

    Would be great to have a summary of all the foundational concepts … untangling the skein, trust they suck, Switzerland friends, cake, kibbles, spackle, etc.

    • Along the lines of foundational concepts, which I did figure out as I read daily, I would suggest defining the abbreviations used here. Took me awhile to figure that out.

      But I am totally a tech dummy so something like this, which seems simple to me, is probably very complex to set up.

      I would like to add that I am fine with things the way they are Tracy. Once I found CL it was very easy for me to find the archives and dig in.

    • I would absolutely second the Margalis Fjelstad book. My ex is diagnosed bipolar, BUT I will eat my hat if he isn’t also BPD. She explains it SOOOOOO well, I thought the book was wonderful!

  • Suggestions: I’d love to have a place where a list of suggested steps for the newbie can be found that we can point them to rather than read the archives. it seems we repeat the list alot and it depends on who is responding that day what gets included. also what to expect in grief process for betrayal there is alot about grief out there but recovery from betrayal is a little different.
    Testimonial: I focused my energies, wealth, and attention on making my family happy to the exclusion of my own interests and well-being. I did not establish deal breakers with my husband – he didn’t work for the last 4 years of our marriage because I was successful in my career and well why should he – yep I was a big ole sucker! in other words he was a complete entitled mooch. about 3 months after d-day I found your book on Amazon. It made me feel empowered to take back my life. It became crystal clear to me who this stranger was and how this needed to play out even though I was still crushed. I remember thinking as I read it, OMG -he said that to me, OMG-he did exactly that, OMG OMG who is this person. The veil dropped and I was no longer the patsy – I was D.O.N.E. he wouldn’t get another thing from me. two weeks later, I had negotiated a settlement and filed for divorce. within 7 months of d-day I was divorced from a man I’d been married to for 30 yrs in large part because you gave me permission to make this all about me. I was unforgiving, determined, and nonnegotiable. his head is still spinning and he is still whining about what he lost. what I loved, on the day of my divorce, I posted it on the site and CL congratulated me along with many in CN. the only congratulations I got – everyone else said – Im sorry. thank you!

  • I believe that ChumpLady,com is perfectly unique. Numerous links/resources/YouTube videos will be overwhelming; keep it simple. Although this site has a ton of information, it is easy to navigate. I agree it is structurally very well thought out. It is awesome that a redesign is in the works, however. That is very exciting.

    We want people to buy your book, Tracy. I don’t feel it is necessary to give out your best articles on the landing page; chumps will figure things out rather quickly if they start reading your posts and the CN comments.
    Searchers will also find information on narcissism on their own. It is ALL over the Internet, ad nauseum. I like how the current home page only contains a few select resources. Too many, and people may get the impression that Chump Lady endorses every single idea on every single website. Same goes for videos, some of which are extremely boring. People will find these therapy videos on their own. I like how chumps post in their comments the names of/links to resources, articles, etc, which have helped them personally.
    Let’s certainly keep (and ramp up!) the humor and snark. Let’s focus on getting and staying MIGHTY.
    Mentioning narcissism, BPD and mental illness is too much untangling the skein for me. I don’t think those topics should be included on the landing page. New chumps are already feeling overwhelmed, guilty and generally BAD. I just think simplicity is best.
    Thank you so very much for what you are doing, Tracy. You totally rock!

    • I agree with Chumpalou.

      One thing I that learned from my first job is to keep things simple. For example, most successful restaurants keep their menu short because they know giving more options leads to confusion.

      On the other hand, I too would love to see a estimonial colum from chumps that reached meh.

      • Chumpalou,

        After thinking about this for a day and a half I agree….The line I love is:


        I am older and too much overwhelms me. At first I wanted more but I soon learned that Tracy has already provided the platform for self-education to happen and to happen at its own pace based upon the individual.

        Most of all that I have learned over the past couple of years is from CL and from the comments provided by CN.


        Your approach is simple and straight forward. Just what I needed in the beginning. Anything else that I have read has been icing on the cake. You spelled it out in clearly definable ways.

        It is as though you have read every book out there on the subject and then synthesized it down into the most important aspects. In other words, you cut to the chase in your snarky manner which is also riddled with compassion. I needed to be slammed when I came here and you didn’t leave any openings for my chumpiness to sparkle.

    • Agree with Chumpalou, short and simple is the way to go. What CL has now is damn near perfect. Don’t mess with it. Thank you CL and Chump Nation for your sincere care, much appreciated.

  • Playlist ideas – Fiona Apple!

    Search ideas – articles listed by topic ie No Contact, Overcoming Anger

    Gaining a life ideas –

    Thank you for maintaining your passion for supporting chumps!

    PS I agree to not using the site as a dating opportunity. I greatly benefit from the honesty and vulnerability shared and do not want image management!

  • Books:

    ‘Why Does He Do That?’ and ‘Should I Stay or Should I Go’ – both Lundy Bancroft.

    ‘Don’t Call That Man!’ – terrific practical guide to No Contact

    Patrick Carnes, ‘The Betrayal Bond’ on trauma bonding

    Cloud & Townsend, ‘Boundaries’ – if you are Christian

  • Books: “Psychopath Free” by Jackson MacKenzie and Tracy’s books helped me enormously.

    Other stuff:

    **An acronym section. I still don’t understand half the acronyms on this site and I’ve been reading this blog since 2015 or 2016.

    **Any thought to adding a Venmo section? It seems so much easier for some than Patron.

    ** Maybe you do this already, but are archives categorized somehow?

    ** I found trying to find a therapist post D-DAY incredibly difficult. I would have paid to talk to a “Chump Lady therapist” by phone if your site directed me to someone you vetted, especially in the early days when I could not even think straight. Ever think about adding therapy hotline or something like that? Again, I would have paid.

    Personally, you wouldn’t have to change a thing on your site and I would still come. I do know, however, videos bring traffic.

  • Books Leave a Cheater gain a life by u Tracy S, I’m not in Love with you anymore , Lillian Moore, Not JustFriends, Shirley P Glass, Mind Games Pamela Kol , You don’t have to take it anymore Steven Stosny , Wish list That there was a Cheaters handbook That I could start Snd add to it I think it would be helpful ???? When I first found out my husband cheated on me , I had no clue of what to do . I was so angry and upset, hurt and I cried a lot , I couldn’t afford a counselor , I tried talking to family and friends but they didn’t understand it all so weren’t very helpful, So I went looking for help on line , Brought different books some helped But there was one book that stood out among them all that helped me it was Leave a Cheater gain a life You understood what we are going though ,So you could truly help , plus ChumpLady . Com is amazing You post things that we can relate to and we also get to write down our stories our thoughts Which has given me hope , taken me out of some dark places , made me feel I’m not alone So thank u ChumpLady Fir being there for us , showing us there is a life out there for us

  • The testimonials need categories, esp for custody situations where you are having to do “shared residency” coparenting stuff. There are several chumps on here with lot of post in 2013 that read almost exactly like my current situation, but I never found out what ended up happening.

  • Checklists: eg
    So you’ve discovered you’re a chump – Realizing what you are dealing with, cake and kibbles etc. Discovery /abandonment. Your reactions.
    What next? – Your strategies: Protecting yourself; emotionally, physically, day to day concerns, finding legal/financial support to safeguard yourself, helping your children.
    Their strategies: recognizing The 3 channels, Trickle Truth, Blameshifting, Invitation to Dance etc. How to deal with those.
    Then more in depth stuff:
    Self-care through the separation/divorce process – what to expect.
    Parenting with a Fuckwit
    Fixing your picker/rebuilding – all with appropriate links to the daily letters or other resources

  • Lists of recommended and trigger-warning media: just big lists of songs, movies, books, TV shows, etc, that either promote chump recovery or portray/glorify cheating. We can create playlists to make us feel powerful, know what movies to not watch, etc

    A button that lets us toggle between the original swearing version, or a clean version of all the pages.

  • Two books that helped enormously to begin to calm my severe anxiety, depression and complex PTSD were:

    By Rachel Goldsmith Turow


    The Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Sourcebook, Revised and Expanded Second Edition: A Guide to Healing, Recovery, and Growth by Glenn R. Schiraldi.

    Both books describe, in very simple straight forward language, concrete techniques that the reader can try. The books are structured so that you do not need to read them front to back. You can read just one or two pages (because they understand how difficult it is to focus). And pick it up the next time and flip to a different section.

  • More emphasis on ABUSE !


    Infidelity is ABUSE
    He/ she is an ABUSER ( of your trust / kindness etc)
    You were / are being exploited and ABUSED.

    Hard hitting statements from day one.

    Character disturbance / narcissism – etc absolutely –

    But more emphasis on the ABUSE.

    Took me so long to make the link and needed a slap if this earlier in. The advice on narcissism really helped – but the link to me being ABUSED got overshadowed by looking at / reading about his character too long etc.

    Thanks Tracey – your book saved my life!

  • That’s very true!

    And even before that, for us chumps who reeeeeally don’t get what’s going on at the very beginning : the cheater is the aggressor. He/she is not the vulnerable, innocent, confused victim of an abominable AP. They are both agressors. It took four months to understand my X wife wasn’t a poor defenseless victim.

  • Psychopath free Jackson MacKenzie
    Narcissist Playbook Dana MorningStar
    Healing from a narcissistic relationship margalis fjelstad
    How to do no contact like a boss Kim Saeed

    Some other books which have helped me
    Besides lacgal

    Dana morning star has a YouTube channel which is good

  • I found this site through the website Out Of The Fog, a wonderful resource for information on all things character disordered. I highly recommend it to those who want to learn about the fuckwit nation and how to begin to recognize and protect yourself from them.

    Once here, even though it had been quite a while since I had to deal with cheater ex, I was still trying to make sense of just what the hell happened. Here was where I learned it wasn’t my fault and that I mattered too. I keep coming back to share my story when I feel it will be helpful. I feel that is my responsibility to give back, and if my story can help even one person, it’s all good. So….Testimonials….yep, absolutely. And personally, I love watch newbies come here, grow into strong, confident people, get a life, and begin to thrive, fuckwit free.

    to new chumps

    • ((((Tessie))))
      You have said it all so perfectly!
      YOU are the heart & soul of CN.

      I know that I personally am NOT a CL,CN success story.
      But I appreciate so much that it was here that I learned that everything was never my fault.
      I gained strength here, even many years later, which has been so helpful for me in my life.

      To me, the red heart that CL drew above, symbolizes a broken heart, stitched, or stapled back together. It can never be whole again, but it can survive the cruel breaking wide open. The scar tissue will always be there, but CL, CN is the salve, the ointment, that makes it all bearable. It holds us all together. It makes survival possible.
      We see this time and time again in the testimonials shared here.

      Thank you CL, CN! ????
      A gift indeed tied with heart strings and yellow ribbons!

  • I think Divorce Minister is a good resource. He offers insight from a religious perspective and also exposes their hypocrisy. It really helped me as a Christian to understand cheating is not okay with God, forgiveness is not automatic, and the faithful is justified to leave. It’s also comforting reinforcement of god’s love for us faithful, even as we often suffer in silence.

  • When people say “testimonials” I’m not sure if I’m understanding the same thing. However, if not, I personally would really love a “where are they now” section to feature chumps whose letters have been published here and where they are now (hopefully all doing 1,000% better fuckwit-free).

    • Hi Attie,
      To me testimonials means following a Chump along their journey, like how it all started out for them when they first posted on this site, then following along some of their posts and actually realizing the change in them and the strength of charting their course. It is like a transformation of sorts. People like Mother Chumper 99, Martha, Mighty Momma Bear , and oh so many others.
      Attie, do you remember Capricorn? When I first hid out reading CL, I felt spellbound by her. She was struggling with three sons. Her cheater lived afar, and I believe he was financially responsible, but it nded there and she struggled. All this time she reached out to others, encouraging them every step of the way. We have not heard from Capricorn for a long long time and I believe it has been written here that she went back to school and is now a marriage couscillor. OMG, what a wonderful wonderful gift she is to people in need.

      I love your idea of ” where are they now”
      AND I love you, and all your posts.
      YOU are Mighty!

  • Ok Chump Lady,

    I took some time to really give you some insight. I would describe myself as an Amazon Chump (like many of us on this site.) I had to have answers and turned to books to provide me with clarity during that initial storm of shock, betrayal, disbelief, guilt, sadness and despair.

    1. Leave a Cheater Gain a Life 🙂
    2. Divorcing a Narcissist: One Moms Battle, by Tina Swithin.
    3. The Narc Decoder, by Tina Swithin
    4. The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist, by Debbie Mirza
    5. Runaway Husbands, by Vikki Stark

    These 5 books I read from cover to cover. They gave me tons of perspective.

    I know a lot of folks turn to spirituality when enduring great loss. I found that a lot of christian resources followed the RIC, which was NOT happening in my realm.

    I found the tenants of buddhism enlightening, and I have started practicing yoga again.

    I would also recommend that you add recommended music section as well. Some of us need some tunes to make a satisfying chump playlist.

    Some entries to consider:
    1. Got My Name Changed Back, Pistol Annies
    2. Before He Cheats, Carrie Underwood
    3. Anything from Adele #21

  • Music: Little Big Town – Happy People

    Books that helped: Split: A Memoir of Divorce by Suzanne Finnamore, an honest, raw, intelligent, and deeply darkly humorous window into the soul of a woman going through a divorce she does not want inflicted on her by a cheating husband. She covers this emotional time with raw honesty, and biting humor.

  • If this book hasn’t been suggested already….Mira Kirshenbaum’s ‘Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay’ helped me see the importance of my deal breakers


    George Simon’s ‘In Sheep’s Clothing’ helped me see the behaviors under the talk.

  • Hi Chump Lady! YOU never cease to amaze. Your goal to improve the best resource out there is admirable. Perhaps a category of your Top Ten “Greatest Hits” – your best columns measured by # of responses? That way CN newbies and alums could quickly access and visualize the enormity of our issues with infidelity. They could understand the volume of feedback, all the points of view and recognize how important your work is, how many it affects, and how well so many of us are doing creating new lives – because of you.

  • Thank you for asking for our input. I have been a reader for 18 months and held on to this site for dear life. A few things I always wanted to see more of:

    Narcissism – Not just our descriptions, but what this condition is and how it manifests. It isn’t just limited to a guy who cheats or has a high opinion of himself. I learned a lot through the utube videos by Sam Vaknin. There are numerous other links, readings that could help many of us navigate relationships in general. Marrying a horrible person is usually only part of the story. How did we get picked by these users? And, how are we allowing ourselves to be picked by multiple narcissists, male, female, friends, lovers etc. It’s a huge topic and there is much to understand about it.

    Sex Addiction – Is it real? Is it a feature of Narcissism or a combination of both?

    Networking in real life. Would love to participate in a forum to actually meet or conference with other chumps. We can help each other and sometimes we need more than a website, we need to touch and meet. If Sex Anonymous can have local gatherings, so can your Chump Nation.

  • I’d love to see “A Cheater’s Manual”, just because I’m convinced that there really must be one!

  • Lot of posters have suggested books that have helped or inspired them. I too turn to reading and books for solutions.

    If you do have a suggested reading list page and it’s possible, a rating or review addition would be helpful in choosing authors/titles.
    Sometimes limited funds necessitate careful choice of healing resources.

  • Maybe something specific on “double betrayal”, when you’ve known the AP for years, and it has affected not only your relationship with your partner but also your work environment, or a group you’ve been in with your spouse and the AP … if there’s any literature on that, it would be good to highlight that as a resource.

  • Signs or red flags to show us what they want , what are they doing, do they want to leave , are they going to leave u, Are they planing something beside your back , Why are they being kind or sweet to us They cheated it was done to us , but they want us to move on forget what happen I’d like to forget move on with my life , But the dipshit is not letting me I need to know what to look for from him , I don’t what to be blind sided again . Songs – Times up , You say, Worried about , What can I say , The breakup song, You belong , Hope this helps

  • Read the books, searched the internet, but religiously look forward to CL every single day. At this point I NEED HUMOR. Most days are really tough and I very rarely laugh except for some hilarious antics by the MLCers posted by CL and CN. Topics like …the craziest thing your MLCer wore, the most insane comments made by the MLCer, funny poems about MLC, etc…..the list can go on and on.

  • If you think you have a unicorn Tri Heart to Heart Counseling in Colorado Springs Colorado. First day lie detector test. These people are tough they are effective and they will separate the men from the boys.

    Tough on grime. Just finished an intensive there and I see things very clearly now. Healing and empowering for the Betrayed partner, with no wiggle room for the cheater.

    So many books so I can’t even remember but I’m about done with all that now I could hold a book sale. DVDs and books and YouTube by Doug Weiss are extremely effective. Learning about a term they call intimacy anorexia has been a key to my avoiding this ever again in the future and understanding what devastated my life.

    Leave a cheater gain a life, that book had me laughing in the face of the worst moments I can imagine. Thank you you saved me with it and clarified my thinking.

  • In my case it has been life-long, and intergenerational, hidden abuse by covert=vulnerable narcissists/borderline both male and female.
    Only after I was abandoned by my ex-husband could I put the pieces together.

    I cherish this site particularly for the little things, details in their own experiences that people are contributing. It is often through a little thing that someone has written, that one can connect the dots and get the missing piece to one’s own puzzle.

    Also, I have found that, when the conversation sometimes takes a little bit of a side path, it is often out of a spontaneous or urgent need/situation. This spontaneity speaks to the aliveness of the site. In my opinion, on the whole, it rather enriches than detracts.


    “Healing from hidden abuse” by Shannon Thomas
    “Psychopath Free” by Jackson McKenzie
    “The verbally abusive relationship” by Patricia Evans
    “Emotional Blackmail” by Susan Forward
    “In sheep’s clothing” George Simon
    “Why does he do that” by Lundy Bancroft
    “The Gift of fear” by Gavin de Becker

    “Complex PTSD: From surviving to thriving: A guide and map for recovering from childhood trauma” by Pete Walker
    “The body keeps the score: Brain, mind and body in the healing of trauma” by Bessel van der Kolk

    The gift of fear does not seem to be available to people who have suffered abuse all their lives. The high-alarm state is a constant and thus no longer works to signal danger.
    Further, hidden abuse is akin to sexual abuse in that it may cause dysregulation of the HPA axis, which may even lead to infertility.

    As for abandonment, Lundy Bancroft has a line where it is stated that abandonment is just the last piece of abuse in a long line of abusive behaviours.

  • The thing that I miss most is the forums. It was the second most helpful thing about your website CL, next to your dedication to the truth, that helped me as a man navigate this disaster in my life. Thank you, Lonelychump.

  • Thank you peacekeeper, I am eternally grateful for all the people like you. The word forum actually represents hundreds, even thousands of people who, like you care about people. People who honestly save others with their kindness and understanding. Typing this morning, I realize that it’s difficult to find all the words to describe the incredible strength of this community. CL and CN are and always will, be part of who I am.

  • Testimonial
    Two years ago I was back at the bookstore I the infidelity section again searching for help. I had spent the last six months in RIC torture as I tried to divorce remedy and affair proof to no avail. I picked up a copy of Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life. I didn’t want to leave a 32 yr marriage, but I did want to Gain a Life. I needed straight talk instead of hopium.
    From the book I found the website which I still visit daily. The archives and comments were often more helpful than therapy because I found people who had been through whatever I was dealing with at the time and they had made it. The encouragement from CL and CN that my Tuesday will come has given me hope for meh in the future.

  • Books for self care- I listen to audiobooks through the Libby app from my library. In the evening focusing on listening can keep my mind from trying to untangle the skein. My goal is to thrive. Each day I try to choose joy and I write in my gratitude journal. These are books I have listened to more than once.
    The Wisdom of Sundays by Oprah Winfrey
    I’ve Been Thinking by Maria Shriver
    The Mindful Way Through Depression by Jon Kabat Zinn, Mark Williams, JohnTeasdale, Zindel Segal
    Decluttering at the Speed of Life by Dana K White

    Helpful Blogs
    Chump Lady – humor and sound advice on so many topics that arise after dday
    Lessons from the End of a Marriage- I like her 3 part journal
    Runaway Husbands – the transformational stages helped gauge my progress in recovery. I’m now in Early Spring. The steps for moving forward were used to organize the post it notes of quotes that covered the bathroom mirror. The coping tricks helped stop negative thought spirals.

  • I’d suggest a tab for “lining up ducks,” with all the basic advice about copying financials, securing key documents, finding a place to secure family heirlooms and valuables, running a credit check, getting tested for STDs, and so on. That could include a link to the attorney who occasionally posts here.

    I didn’t know Dr. Simon has a YouTube channel. That would be very useful to highlight.

    I also think Brené Brown’s work on vulnerability, shame and courage is important, especially on not sharing your story with those who haven’t earned the right to hear it. I don’t mean we shouldn’t blurt out the D-Day story to our hairdresser, the plumber, and the person next to us on the bus. Her point, I think, is that we have to sort out the people we think of as “friends.” Brown is very good on insisting we values ourselves.

    My testimonial: We’re often told that saving the marriage or the relationship is the most important thing we can do after a betrayal. And often a person who has been abused and betrayed is desperate to stay with the betrayer and abuser. What Chump Lady shows us is that we matter, that our lives are more important than the marriage or relationship, that leaving will be better for the kids than living with abuse and dishonesty and gaslighting.

  • Testimonial:

    Three months after my divorce was finalized, I stumbled upon my “counterpart” chump (my XW’s OM’s wife)…who lived 1,000 away! We each recognized one another’s stories in blog post comments, and a friendship was born!

    Tracy put us in touch, and we shared our collective stories, filling in many of the holes that our respective cheaters had omitted. It was immensely cathartic and healing!! We’ve both moved on from regular Chumplady contribution, and our lives have returned to normalcy such that we communicate less often.

    But I’ll be forever thankful to this website, without which never would her found one another.

  • Forgive the group reply, but I wanted to say THANK YOU for all the suggestions. I’m compiling a Chump Library!

    As for the acronym list suggestion — I have a glossary on the site and clearly it needs to be better highlighted. It’s here Under Resources, List of Terms.

    I’m working with a great coder and a great designer — and I think it’s going to be so much better organized and navigable.

    On the video/coach/therapy thing — I tried video chat on Patreon and ugh, on many levels. First the technology is very distracting to me, second I’m not the most video-comfortable (I prefer typing and drawing) and third, I’m a chump. I’m happy to give my BTDT, cold bucket of water to the hopium, best mate bitch slap, but I reject “life coach” crap. And obviously, I’m not a therapist or a lawyer. So, I like to keep it simple — support the community, support my writing.

    I am, however, considering (after the site redo, which is keeping me occupied) recording some Letters to Chump Lady for listening. I know people often like to listen rather than read, and it’s on the go — and that is doable.

    Some folks have already reached out to me about translations in Dutch and French — and that’s really exciting! I’m starting with the “foundational texts” as it were (Pick Me Dance, Universal Theory of Cake, and Real Remorse v. Genuine Imitation Remorse) — and I love the idea of having those three articles in as many languages as we can get! Viva la Chump Revolution!!!

    Thank you guys so much. I’ll have more to report in the coming weeks. Back to regular programming tomorrow!

  • I would help to be able to flag a favorite post. I OFTEN come back to re-read posts that really hit home for me and it would be nice to have them all saved in one place so I can read them over and over when I need to.

  • Hands down the book I read that opened my eyes and made me realise the truth was “Infidelity-Exploding the myths” by Julia Hartley Moore. She is a private investigator specialising in infidelity. This was what turned me permanently away from the RIC and onto the path of separation and constant forward motion to freedom and happiness. Bring on my new life!

  • Dear Chump Lady:
    I love this site! Thank you for being such a tremendous source of support and encouragement!
    My only requests for this site are,
    1. an option to “like” another person’s comment without actually replying, and
    2. I would love it if a “vocabulary list” were available for the abbreviations. I can figure out most, but sometimes need help, ha.
    Thank you!!!!

  • I came to this site through a reference on a post at the “out of the fog” website. I was struggling to understand what had happened to my life, my marriage, the extreme personality shifts my x exhibited, what was mine, what was abuse, what could i do to come through this vulnerable time.

    The humor was and is cathartic. Reframing my experience to successful survivor.

    The channels are extremely helpful.

    Accepting that this is who they actually are, the “good” spouse was a years long manipulation to keep a spouse appliance in service.

    Reminders to open my mind and take in what I’m seeing, that he really moved her in when i moved out, as the house was selling, that everything he did was to punish me for leaving him.

    Reading posts in the forums of spouses with sudden personality shifts, who seemed to be mentally ill or early dementia, further attempts to attach through the “better or worse” commitment.

    The wonderful and sometimes nerve wracking consequence of looking at all my relationships, family, friends, professional, and spiritual, changing how I set boundaries, protect myself.

    Righteous assertions that I matter.

    Thank you.

  • I thank Dr. Lawrence for His restoration of my marriage. After being separated for a few months, my husband has left the other woman and returned home to me. We are working to better our marriage. Dr. Lawrence is good. Continue to keep us in your prayers because I know the journey ahead will not be an easy one.” Drlawrencespelltemple {AT}hot mail com Whats-app + 1{305{203}1297

  • Apologizing if I missed this song posted, but WARRIOR, by Demi Lovato is a great song.
    Goggle it to listen if reading this, sorry I do not know how to add the link here, not techy at all.

    So much info in this archive.

    Thanks again CL for all that you do.

  • I would definitely have a real picture of your face instead of cartoon – helps build trust & seems more professional, like you’d be taken more seriously at first glance, then people would stay longer.

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